Zootopia Exposed! (Part One)

Screenwriter Gary Goldman claimed the creators of the Disney franchise Zootopia stole his story. Malcolm investigates. Check out Part Two of our Zootopia series here https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/zootopia-exposed-part-two/id1119389968?i=1000754768767. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  This is Jacob Goldstein. When you're a business owner interested in expanding to new markets, there's a lot to consider and countless questions to answer before making the call. The most important one being, are you ready? That's where ChatGPT comes in. Give it a goal, add your files, and ask chat to help you map out different scenarios for the future of your business. So when growth is on the table, you've got an expansion plan ready to implement. Get started today at ChatGPT.com.

• 0:28Speaker 01

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• 0:58Malcolm Gladwell?

  This is a paid message from Apple Card. It's easy, I think, in the hubbub of our lives to lose track of our spending. We pay the bills and move on, and don't understand the deeper patterns in our spending, the many different decisions we're making knowingly or unknowingly. You have to understand where your money is going in order to make better decisions about it. That's one reason Apple Card stands out to me. You can earn unlimited daily cash back on every purchase you make. I also appreciate the simplicity. Apple Card doesn't have annual, late, or over-the-limit fees. No fees, ever. There's even an option to open a high-yield savings account through Apple Card. And while I haven't done it yet,

• 1:39Malcolm Gladwell?

  if I do, my daily cash can grow automatically over time without any extra effort. When you better understand your spending habits, it's easier to make your money work harder for you. Apply in the Wallet app on your iPhone today. Subject to credit approval. Variable APRs for Apple Card range from 17.74% to 27.99% based on credit worthiness. Rates as of October 1, 2026. Existing customers can view their variable APR in the Wallet app or card.apple.com. Savings is available to Apple Card owners subject to eligibility. Savings and Apple Card by Goldman Sachs Bank USA, Salt Lake City Branch, Member FDIC.

• 2:24Malcolm Gladwell?

  Terms and more at applecard.com.

• 2:33Speaker 03

  Pushkin.

• 2:41Malcolm Gladwell?

  On a recent snowy day, I took my four and a half year old to a movie theater on Manhattan's Upper West Side. This was only her second time ever at the movies. She was very excited. I bought her a large tub of popcorn. The theater was crowded. We were there to see Disney's Zootopia 2, a film that is now the highest grossing animated movie of all time. We sat enraptured for the better part of two hours. And at the end, she turned to me and said, "Thank you, Daddy." And I said to her, "Oh, this wasn't for you. This was for me. I'm on assignment."

• 3:26Malcolm Gladwell?

  My name is Malcolm Gladwell. You're listening to Revisionist History, my podcast about things overlooked and misunderstood. The story I'm about to tell you is the strangest Hollywood story you have ever heard. It makes no sense. It invites all manner of absurd speculation. It's going to take us two episodes to unravel it. And even then, your mind will be in such a swirl that you will almost certainly feel compelled to see Zootopia 2 for yourself. And if you've already seen it, to grab any one of your available children and see it again. And to whisper under your breath when you think your little companion isn't listening. WTF.

• 4:09Malcolm Gladwell?

  All of this started when we got a call from Angus Fletcher, saying a friend of his needed to speak to me. It was urgent. The friend had a story to tell, a story with so many layers, the friend said, that there was no way to do it justice in a single episode, two, minimum. For future reference, if you need to get my attention, this is the way to do it. All right, can you hear me? There you are. Gary, Angus, the gang is back together. Right away, I hopped on a Zoom with the two of them.

• 4:43Speaker 04

  The story started and then Gary, you wanna, do you wanna?

• 4:45Malcolm Gladwell?

  Angus.

• 4:46Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 4:46Speaker 05

  All right, jump in.

• 4:48Malcolm Gladwell?

  If you are a longtime listener of Revisionist History, you will know the name Angus Fletcher. He's an English professor at Ohio State and runs their narrative project. I love Angus. I think Angus is a genius. Angus has been featured on more Revisionist History episodes than anyone else. Our three-part rewrite of The Little Mermaid, In Defense of Paw Patrol, and, and this is relevant to the story I'm about to tell you, we did a series of episodes a few years back called Development Hell, where we interviewed screenwriters about their best idea that never made it to the screen. And Angus came on to talk about an absolutely bananas sci-fi project he worked on with a good friend of his, the Hollywood screenwriter Gary Goldman.

• 5:34Malcolm Gladwell?

  And during that episode, I concluded that not only is Angus a genius, but Gary is a genius too. Anyway, back to the matter at hand.

• 5:43Speaker 04

  So basically, I get a phone call from Gary and Gary and I are old friends. We've worked together on a bunch of screenwriting projects. Gary is one of the most famous and eminent screenwriters in Hollywood. If you love the end to Total Recall, you can thank Gary for that.

• 5:57Malcolm Gladwell?

  Gary Goldman grew up in the South. He was a protege of the novelist Walker Percy, went to Brandeis, spent some time working in a hospital in Israel during the Yom Kippur War, ended up in Hollywood and has worked with everyone. Paul Verhoeven, James Cameron, Ridley Scott, David Fincher, Steven Spielberg.

• 6:16Speaker 04

  So Gary calls me up and he goes, Angus, have you seen Disney's latest movie?

• 6:21Malcolm Gladwell?

  Here Angus is referring to the first Zootopia film, which came out in 2016, featuring a rabbit named Judy Hopps and a con artist fox named Nick Wilde, who live in a world inhabited entirely by animals. And they have to work together to solve a mystery involving the disappearance of predators. It's very good.

• 6:48Malcolm Gladwell?

  All breeds, predator and prey alike, live together in peace and harmony. Zootopia did very well. It grossed a zillion dollars and won the Oscar for Best Animated Feature. Gary watched all this success closely.

• 7:03Speaker 04

  And it's a big deal. I mean, it's a big family. But I can send you the pictures of us drinking champagne when Zootopia won, won the Academy Award. I mean, this is our lost daughter, who is doing great.

• 7:15Malcolm Gladwell?

  Why was this such a big deal for Gary? Here's what he told Angus.

• 7:20Speaker 04

  And so he tells me the story of how he goes to Disney, how he pitched this idea, how he wrote it down on a physical document, which he gave to Disney. And he goes, I think they might have stolen my idea. I said, what's on this document? And Gary goes to me, okay, well, in my pitch, it says, when you grow up, quote, if you want to be an elephant, you can be an elephant. And in Disney's movie, it says, quote, you want to be an elephant when you grow up? You can be an elephant. And in Gary's pitch, it says, this is going to take place in a land where, quote, an animal can be whatever it wants to be. And in Disney's movie, it says, this is going to take place in a land where, quote, anybody can be anything.

• 8:04Speaker 04

  And then I say to Gary, what is this land? And Gary says to me, in my pitch, it's called Zootopia. And amazingly, in the Disney movie, it's called Zootopia.

• 8:17Malcolm Gladwell?

  Wait, okay, so there's so many things to, to, to, to, to pick up on. Gary, take me back to the beginning about the origins of this idea of a movie called Zootopia. What period of time are we talking about here?

• 8:32Speaker 04

  2000.

• 8:33Malcolm Gladwell?

  2000.

• 8:34Speaker 04

  Yeah, I have two sons and my sons were, I don't know, four and six. And, you know, at that time, you start thinking about, oh, what can I do creatively that my kids can relate to?

• 8:48Speaker 04

  And so I came up in, under interesting, very specific circumstances with the idea for Zootopia. And I'll tell you, when I came up with the word Zootopia.

• 9:00Speaker 05

  I was elated and I ran into my house and I ran upstairs and I talked to my wife. I said, you're not going to believe I've got the most incredible title. I've got the most incredible idea. It's called Zootopia. She said, I don't know. I don't think it's such a great idea. I said, trust me, trust me. It's a really, it's a really good name. In fact,

• 9:19Speaker 05

  we can't say this word in front of the kids. Because if we say this word in front of the kids, they're going to go to school. And a lot of their, the parents of these kids are in show business. And then the word is going to get out and it's very hard to protect a title.

• 9:34Malcolm Gladwell?

  Yeah.

• 9:35Speaker 05

  So we just have to keep it.

• 9:36Malcolm Gladwell?

  Sworn to secrecy.

• 9:37Speaker 05

  Yeah, we had to keep it secret.

• 9:44Malcolm Gladwell?

  Fast forward nine years. Goldman's doing a project with the comic book legend Stan Lee for Disney. And he goes to the Disney exec he's working with and he says, I have this idea. Gives them an eight page outline of the concept. It's called Looney. It's about an animator who creates an animal world called Zootopia. He has drawings of the animals who are going to inhabit the Zootopia world. Roscoe, the hyena, who is cynical and obnoxious. His sidekick, Mimi, the squirrel, who is cute and curvaceous and optimistic. Goldman thinks that this is the best idea he's ever had for a movie. And Angus agrees.

• 10:22Speaker 04

  So first of all, I just want to point out that you have the writer of Total Recall, which is generally considered to be one of the greatest stories of all time, telling you the Total Recall is nothing compared to Zootopia. So that should give you some indication.

• 10:36Malcolm Gladwell?

  Yeah.

• 10:36Speaker 04

  And, you know, Gary's legitimately a story genius. Why is Zootopia so good? Well, because what you're really trying to do with a story is not just create a plot. You're trying to create a world.

• 10:47Malcolm Gladwell?

  Yeah.

• 10:48Speaker 04

  That's why Star Wars is so brilliant. Because.

• 10:52Speaker 04

  The movie, great, but really what you want is you want to wander around with lightsabers and Darth Vader and the Force and the Jedi and Leia and all that kind of stuff. And Zootopia is exactly the same thing. Zootopia is a mythic universe. When Gary first told me this, he sent me a, basically a Bible, which went on for, you know, hundreds and hundreds of slides, explaining to me all the sort of like complex mythology behind Zootopia. So I'm not going to pretend to be able to kind of expound that to you here. It was like having a conversation with like Joseph Campbell or something. But basically, the point is, is that you have an entire universe in which these animals are there to expose the lie that you can be whatever it is that you want to be.

• 11:36Speaker 04

  I mean, that's basically the twist, is that we are all told these fables in America growing up, which is you can be whatever you want to be.

• 11:44Malcolm Gladwell?

  Yeah, yeah. Gary?

• 11:46Speaker 05

  Yeah, well, the idea here is all of us tell our kids, pretty much, you have to decide whether or not to tell your kids, you can be whatever you want to be when you grow up. And you, there's enormous pressure to say it, even though we know as adults, that's not exactly true. That's really kind of magical thinking masquerading as good advice. So do you want to send your kids out into the world knowing nothing, except you can be whatever you want to be, and then you just go out there and try, try, try, try, try, and then you encounter real life and you're not prepared for it? On the other hand, if you don't teach your kids that, they're going to be totally outcompeted by all the other kids in this, in the class, who have been told they can be whatever they want to be.

• 12:28Speaker 05

  So I wanted to basically surround this, these cliches of conventional wisdom with ridiculous, zany cautionary tales about animals who are told they can be whatever they want to be, and basically encounter the constraints that all of us encounter in life.

• 12:45Malcolm Gladwell?

  The world where all this took place was Zootopia. Gary takes his idea to the executive he's working with at Disney. The executive, according to Goldman, basically says, this is interesting, should I give it to the folks over at animation?

• 13:00Speaker 05

  I said, submit it. He said, okay. And I got my papers together and I put it in the portfolio and I handed it to him.

• 13:09Speaker 05

  And then I hear from my agent, they passed. You know, that's all, they passed.

• 13:14Malcolm Gladwell?

  Six years go by, and then one day, Gary gets a call from one of his sons.

• 13:20Speaker 05

  Both of my sons are in the car together. They said, they said, Dad, we're driving down the freeway. We see a billboard and you're not going to believe it, but it has your Looney characters on it.

• 13:32Speaker 05

  I said, my Looney characters? What are you talking about? He says, yeah, you know, you're, you're, you're, it, it, they're these, it's a giant billboard and it's got your characters on it. And I said, that's it. I said, what's the name of the movie? And he says, Zootopia.

• 13:48Speaker 05

  And he'd never heard the word Zootopia. He called me up to tell me that he'd seen my Looney characters. So I was, you know, I was flabbergasted, obviously.

• 14:02Malcolm Gladwell?

  The Goldmans go and see Zootopia at The Grove in Los Angeles. They can't believe it. As far as Gary can tell, his character Roscoe, the cynical, obnoxious hyena, has been turned into Nick Wilde, the cynical, obnoxious fox. And his optimistic, crevaceous squirrel Mimi has become the optimistic, crevaceous rabbit, Judy Hopps. Goldman gets one of the biggest and baddest of law firms, Quinn Emanuel, to represent him. Quinn Emanuel does not usually take suits like this, but for Gary, they make an exception. That's how compelling his case seems. So Quinn Emanuel files a lawsuit claiming copyright infringement. The case goes on for seven years.

• 14:46Malcolm Gladwell?

  Everyone who is anyone at Disney is deposed. But what's Disney's defense? Is it they never saw it?

• 14:53Speaker 05

  Yes, they never saw it.

• 14:54Malcolm Gladwell?

  Because they're claiming this is a series of incredible coincidences.

• 14:57Speaker 05

  That's right. Yeah, yes, they're called independent, independent coringe.

• 15:00Speaker 04

  Just like I independently created Mickey Mouse the other day.

• 15:03Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 15:06Malcolm Gladwell?

  And what happens? Goldman loses. He appeals, loses again. He switches to state court, loses. The courts find that the similarities between Gary's idea and Zootopia didn't look like copyright infringement. And the case is dismissed before the courts ever get to the question of whether Disney actually used Goldman's pitch.

• 15:28Malcolm Gladwell?

  So the Goldmans give up the fight.

• 15:31Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 15:34Malcolm Gladwell?

  Now, there are a million things to say here. The first is that it isn't surprising that Goldman loses his copyright case against Disney. It's almost impossible, under current case law, for a writer to win a case like this against a studio. In one analysis, two Los Angeles lawyers looked at over 50 copyright infringement cases writers brought against Hollywood studios, and in every case, the plaintiff lost. The law basically says you have to show that your work was copied word for word. And of course, you can steal someone's idea without copying it word for word. I could go on and on about this, but I won't, because what matters is what happens next.

• 16:18Speaker 04

  Then Gary calls me up a few months ago, and he says, Angus, have you seen the sequel to Zootopia? And I said, no, Gary, I have not. What happens in the sequel to Zootopia?

• 16:30Malcolm Gladwell?

  Exactly. That's the question. What happens in the sequel to Zootopia? Everyone has a theory. Why do you think I dragged my daughter to see Zootopia 2? Because I have a theory. Gary Goldman has a theory. The team of movie buffs and literary analysts we put on the case have a theory. You will have a theory too, once you finish listening. And why does everyone have a theory? Because there is absolutely something weird going on with Zootopia 2 that requires a theory. That's after the break.

• 17:16Speaker 00

  This is Jacob Goldstein. With ChatGPT, you can do more than get answers. You can get things done. When you're running a business and looking to expand, you need a clear view of the landscape before making any decisions. ChatGPT can help you prepare. Connect your Google Drive, point to relevant files and reports, and ask it to research competitors, industry forecasts, and market signals. It can turn the findings into a strategic deck in your team's template that you can review before presenting to your leadership team. Growing a business is ambitious, and ChatGPT can help you do it with confidence. Get started today at chatgpt.com.

• 17:54Malcolm Gladwell?

  This is a paid message from Apple Card. It's easy, I think, in the hubbub of our lives to lose track of our spending. We pay the bills and move on and don't understand the deeper patterns in our spending, the many different decisions we're making knowingly or unknowingly. You have to understand where your money is going in order to make better decisions about it. That's one reason Apple Card stands out to me. You can earn unlimited daily cash back on every purchase you make. I also appreciate the simplicity. Apple Card doesn't have annual, late, or over the limit fees. No fees ever. There's even an option to open a high-yield savings account through Apple Card. And while I haven't done it yet, if I do, my daily cash can grow automatically over

• 18:38Malcolm Gladwell?

  time without any extra effort. When you better understand your spending habits, it's easier to make your money work harder for you. Apply in the Wallet app on your iPhone today. Subject to credit approval. Variable APRs for Apple Card range from 17.74% to 27.99% based on credit worthiness. Rates as of October 1, 2026. Existing customers can view their variable APR in the Wallet app or card.apple.com. Savings is available to Apple Card owners, subject to eligibility. Savings and Apple Card by Goldman Sachs Bank USA, Salt Lake City Branch, Member FDIC. Terms and more at applecard.com.

• 19:24Speaker 06

  Hey, it's Niall Rogers, host of Before the Moment, a Lincoln original series. I'm driving across the country, meeting some of today's most fascinating artists. We're exploring the stories before the moment that changed everything. This week, I'm joined by Miguel.

• 19:42Speaker 07

  Man, I'm a Black and Mexican kid from San Pedro, and I grew up in Inglewood as well. I never liked to be boxed in. Both of my parents colored outside of the line. I mean, even them being together at the time in L.A. was just not typical. And so I think that has always been a part of my DNA. There's a defiant something in me that feels like what we get to do with what we're given that's greater than us is to maybe connect people to ideas that they wouldn't naturally, you know, connect to. That's really me. I'm just kind of like defiant with love, though.

• 20:18Speaker 06

  Experience before the moment. A Lincoln original series on the iHeart Radio app, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 20:30Malcolm Gladwell?

  At what point do you hear that there's a sequel in the works?

• 20:35Speaker 05

  I mean, it takes years and years to make these movies. I mean, they were making, beginning to make the sequel while we're still involved in the lawsuit.

• 20:43Malcolm Gladwell?

  We're back with Angus Fletcher and Gary Goldman, and the sensitive topic of the sequel has finally come up.

• 20:49Speaker 00

  Oh, it's really interesting because the main character in the sequel to Zootopia is called Gary the Snake.

• 20:57Malcolm Gladwell?

  The sequel's central character is a snake called Gary the Snake.

• 21:03Speaker 05

  And I thought, well, that's, obviously, they're just planning to, you know, don't make, don't make a character a snake unless you're planning to, I mean.

• 21:11Malcolm Gladwell?

  So your immediate thought when you heard of this character, Gary the Snake, is that it was?

• 21:15Speaker 05

  An attack on, yeah, a personal attack on it.

• 21:19Malcolm Gladwell?

  Now, of course, this could just be a coincidence. Gary is a common name. There are lots of Garrys in the world, so maybe it makes sense there should be lots of snakes named Gary as well. This is essentially what the Zootopia 2 screenwriter said in a publicity interview with the New York Times. "He's named Gary because I think Gary is a hilarious name. I apologize to the Garrys of the world. But multiple times over the years, when I've been writing a nice guy character, it's Gary." But needless to say, the Goldman family, fresh off seven years of legal hell, do not see things this way.

• 21:58Malcolm Gladwell?

  Who gets the angriest, among all the Goldmans, who gets the angriest?

• 22:01Speaker 05

  Oh, well, my younger son. I don't, I can't show you, but I'm in my office and there's a door that has a broken hinge, which was when he punched the door in anger after one of these rulings.

• 22:14Malcolm Gladwell?

  The repository of Goldman anger is in the youngest son. You know, do you know what this, the psychological principle here is called transactive memory? You know how in families, we store our memories in other members of our family? That's why the family unity is so powerful. But you guys have transactive anger. So you hear about this and you think you have a sense of foreboding. And where do you see, when did you go see Zootopia 2 in the theater?

• 22:41Speaker 05

  Oh, the, the day before it opened. I mean, we tried to sneak, you know, we tried to get tickets to screening.

• 22:46Malcolm Gladwell?

  They wouldn't even give you a ticket to the premiere?

• 22:49Speaker 05

  Oh, no, no, they don't talk to me. I mean, I'm, no, no, no, I didn't ask them, we're not in touch.

• 22:55Malcolm Gladwell?

  The whole Goldman family, Gary, his wife Judy, their two grown sons, gather at a movie theater in Dublin, California, just east of San Francisco.

• 23:05Speaker 05

  So we go there, we're sitting, and we watch as this story unfolds. And my wife says, he looks like you. I said, what are you talking about? The snake looks like me? She says, yeah, don't you see, she's an artist. And so she says, yeah, I can see how that, I think they, you know, in any case, she thinks Gary the Snake looks like me.

• 23:21Malcolm Gladwell?

  Now, does Gary the Snake really look like Gary Goldman? Or is this just the Goldmans being paranoid? Well, let me describe Gary Goldman. He's 72. He has large expressive eyes, a self-effacing understated manner. I mean, you've heard him speak. Match that voice to your mental image of your kindly uncle. And what is Gary the Snake? Weirdly, a nice snake, a sweetheart snake. Large expressive eyes, a self-effacing understated manner, middle-aged, with one fang instead of two, conceptually defanged, as the middle aged so often are.

• 24:04Malcolm Gladwell?

  And your last name? The Snake. Everything is gonna be okay. Gary says that after the movie came out, all kinds of people texted him to say, Gary, the snake looks just like you. And when I went to see Zootopia 2 with my daughter, right after I'd interviewed Gary, that was my first thought as well. Good Lord, it's the same guy.

• 24:27Speaker 04

  Oh, so, well, Gary doesn't have that cheek. So the fang was a metaphor. But yeah, so Gary, the snake is sweet. His eyebrows kind of go up a little bit. His eyes kind of drew a little bit.

• 24:50Malcolm Gladwell?

  I called up Goldman's lawyer, Deborah Drews.

• 24:53Speaker 04

  I mean, this is gonna sound ridiculous. The snake kind of looks Jewish.

• 24:59Malcolm Gladwell?

  Yes, the snake looks Jewish, 100%.

• 25:03Speaker 04

  Okay. I'm Jewish, so no. Anyway, yes, I did think the snake looked Jewish. And I thought the way he behaved and the way he moved. Gary Goldman's a sweet, he's a sweet guy. So every once in a while, that's just that southern charm. And there's a little, you know, like when you're playing a stringed instrument and you bend the string and it gives you a little, gives you a little twang. That's Gary, you know? Charming, sweet. So yeah, that was Gary the Snake. I mean, it was clear to me. And I think it probably is clear

• 25:47Speaker 04

  to the people who worked on both films, just saying.

• 25:51Malcolm Gladwell?

  Oh, by the way, a good chunk of the movie takes place in a swampy coastal area called Marsh Market. And I'm quoting now from a review of the movie. Marsh Market could well be the Zootopia equivalent of New Orleans. Everybody thinks this. Here's the LA Times critic Matt Brennan interviewing the screenwriter and director of Zootopia before the movie came out.

• 26:15Speaker 05

  You mentioned Marsh Market. And I have to say, as a longtime New Orleanian, I loved seeing the Zootopia version of a bayou.

• 26:24Malcolm Gladwell?

  Why does all this matter? Because Gary Goldman is from New Orleans and because Gary Goldman is Jewish. But still, I know what you're thinking. We haven't yet crossed over into scandal. That's after the break.

• 26:55Speaker 00

  This is Jacob Goldstein. With ChatGPT, you can do more than get answers. You can get things done. When you're running a business and looking to expand, you need a clear view of the landscape before making any decisions. ChatGPT can help you prepare. Connect your Google Drive, point to relevant files and reports, and ask it to research competitors, industry forecasts, and market signals. It can turn the findings into a strategic deck in your team's template that you can review before presenting to your leadership team. Growing a business is ambitious, and ChatGPT can help you do it with confidence. Get started today at chatgpt.com.

• 27:34Speaker 06

  Hey, it's Niall Rogers, host of Before the Moment, a Lincoln original series. I'm driving across the country, meeting some of today's most fascinating artists. We're exploring the stories before the moment that changed everything. This week, I'm joined by Miguel.

• 27:52Speaker 07

  Man, I'm a Black Mexican kid from San Pedro, and I grew up in Inglewood as well. I never liked to be boxed in. Both of my parents colored outside of the line. I mean, even them being together at the time in L.A. was just not typical. And so I think that has always been a part of my DNA. There's a defiant something in me that feels like what we get to do with what we're given that's greater than us is to maybe connect people to ideas that they wouldn't naturally connect to. That's really me. I'm just kind of defiant with love, though.

• 28:28Speaker 06

  Experience Before the Moment, a Lincoln original series on the iHeart Radio app, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 28:39Malcolm Gladwell?

  Screenwriters put caricatures of real people in movies all the time. Many people believe, for example, that Dr. Evil in the Austin Powers movies is Lorne Michaels, the creator of Saturday Night Live. The villain of Ian Fleming's James Bond thriller Goldfinger, rumor has it, was based on the modernist architect Erno Goldfinger, who Fleming was feuding with at the time because Goldfinger built an incredibly ugly house down the road from him. So what? If the Walt Disney Company wants to make a movie about a middle-aged Jewish snake named Gary from New Orleans, that's not a crime. But now, we get to the heart of the issue, which is: What is Zootopia 2 really about?

• 29:23Malcolm Gladwell?

  Well, it's a movie about intellectual property. Zootopia exists because of incredibly sophisticated weather walls. They make it possible for animals from all over the world to live in one place. The walls were invented by Agnes de Snake, Gary's great-grandmother, who wanted to build a world where all animals could live in harmony. But her patent was stolen by the evil Lynxes who run Zootopia, big chubby evil Lynxes, literally corporate fat cats. Listen to how Pawbert Linkslie describes his family's scheme.

• 29:58Speaker 04

  But when my great-grandfather saw what her idea could be worth, he plotted to steal her plans for himself.

• 30:10Malcolm Gladwell?

  The Lynxes then cast all the reptiles out of Zootopia to keep their theft a secret. And the plot of the movie involves the intrepid team of Judy Hopps and Nick Wilde, teaming up with Gary de Snake to get the patent back, restore the snake family's good name, and bring reptiles back into the city of Zootopia. The whole plot of Zootopia 2, the entire movie, is about repairing the damage done by the theft of intellectual property.

• 30:40Speaker 04

  Snakes aren't the bad guys. I have to set things right, and when I do, my family will finally be able to come home.

• 30:50Malcolm Gladwell?

  So, to recap. Just as the Walt Disney Company emerges from a bruising seven-year legal battle, in which a Jewish man from Louisiana named Gary claimed that he invented Zootopia and had his idea stolen by the corporate fat cats of the Walt Disney Company, the Walt Disney Company comes out with a sequel to Zootopia, in which the central character is a Jewish snake from Louisiana named Gary, whose family invented Zootopia and had their idea stolen by a bunch of corporate fat cats. This is why Gary Goldman called Angus Fletcher and why Angus Fletcher called me.

• 31:33Speaker 05

  And so, Zootopia 2 is basically an allegory of what Disney did to Gary in Zootopia 1, but it's an allegory that's created by Disney. So, anyway, that was the point where my mind imploded and I knew we had to call Malcolm.

• 31:49Malcolm Gladwell?

  This is why I love Angus. Because whenever his mind implodes, he thinks of me. The movie's over.

• 31:57Speaker 05

  Right.

• 31:58Malcolm Gladwell?

  The Goldmans walk out.

• 31:59Speaker 05

  Right.

• 32:00Malcolm Gladwell?

  And what do you guys do? Do you guys go out to dinner and discuss? What do you do? How do you download all this information?

• 32:05Speaker 05

  Well, Malcolm, I don't think we've... We are filled with questions and doubts. We're now in the Twilight Zone. Disney has spent over $300 million producing and marketing this movie.

• 32:20Malcolm Gladwell?

  Yeah.

• 32:21Speaker 05

  And it seems to me that it's about me and this lawsuit.

• 32:24Malcolm Gladwell?

  Yeah.

• 32:25Speaker 05

  It really sounds. And we're trying to figure out how this happened. Whose idea was it? Is the company behind this? Is it a official statement of the company? Did the writer, who are carried over from the last movie, did they have something to do with this?

• 32:39Malcolm Gladwell?

  If you think that all this is paranoid nonsense, then I suggest, once again, you go to see Zootopia 2 for yourself. And there will come a point, trust me, when the insanity of the plot will become impossible to ignore and you will turn to the little person next to you nursing their popcorn and you will cover their ears and say out loud, along with everyone else in the crowded theater, WTF.

• 33:07Speaker 05

  Did they sneak it past the Disney legal department? Does the Disney legal department know about it? If the legal, if the Disney legal department knows about it, why did they approve it? If the Disney hierarchs know about it, why did they approve it?

• 33:19Malcolm Gladwell?

  No way Disney legal department knew about this, right Angus?

• 33:23Speaker 04

  No way.

• 33:24Malcolm Gladwell?

  No way. No, this is, that, let's, we can, we can remove that possibility. This sounds to me, so somehow, somehow, the, the, this Gary the Snake, as a, the positive portrayal of Gary the Snake sneaks past the Disney legal and corporate infrastructure. This is unbelievable. This is, we're now in the, we're now in a heist movie. They sneaked the idea out of Disney, out of Burbank.

• 33:56Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Malcolm, why did the studio make a movie that can be interpreted as reopening a case that, that was settled, they won?

• 34:07Malcolm Gladwell?

  Yeah.

• 34:08Speaker 05

  And now they're going to talk about it again. And to me, all this does, what it, I mean, from a personal and legal point of view, it invites speculation.

• 34:16Malcolm Gladwell?

  Were there clues in the original litigation that might help us make sense of what happened? I checked with Deborah Drews, Gary's lawyer. Are there copies in the public realm of those depositions of all those Disney guys? Do you have copies of them?

• 34:31Speaker 03

  I have a couple of answers for you, and, but one of them is that Disney was, it was very scrupulous about obtaining a protective order in which pretty much anything that Disney said was proprietary or confidential or this trade secret would have to be filed under seal, so not accessible to the public.

• 34:57Malcolm Gladwell?

  So then I thought, well, I'll just go to the top. I emailed the CEO of Disney himself, the redoubtable Bob Iger. Hi Bob, Happy New Year. I have become obsessed with Zootopia 2 and the question of whether the movie is an encoded apology to Gary Goldman. It's maybe my favorite Hollywood story ever. And as you may know, Gary Goldman is interpreting the film's hidden message as an act of graciousness on Disney's part. Would you ever consider talking about this for my podcast, even five minutes? Even if you just want to say something brief and funny? I just saw it with my four-year-old. Anyway, I know this is a long shot, but thought you might enjoy a little distraction from your day. M.

• 35:41Malcolm Gladwell?

  He writes back, "First of all, great to hear from you, and the picture of you with a four-year-old makes me smile. Kids are truly life changers and blessings, aren't they?" Then he goes on, "Regarding Zootopia and Gary, I am sorry to tell you, I cannot comment." I should say, Bob Iger is an incredibly kind and gracious man, and there is a version of this story where he is the hero, the greatest of all heroes, the kind who can never publicly acknowledge their courageous act. There is also a version where he was the victim of a crime so perfect that he can never bring the offender to justice. We will get there, I promise. Okay, would anyone else talk?

• 36:26Malcolm Gladwell?

  I called up Hollywood big shots, moguls. No one would go on the record, "Don't use this," or "You can use this, but don't use my name," like this guy.

• 36:35Speaker 04

  I'm not sure why they did it, to be honest with you.

• 36:39Malcolm Gladwell?

  Yeah.

• 36:40Speaker 04

  Because like, that's so on the nose, and it's such a bleep you, if you pardon my French. I mean, I didn't know they were that bold, to be honest with you. I kind of laugh about it. I think he's funny.

• 36:51Malcolm Gladwell?

  It's funny.

• 36:52Speaker 04

  But it's hysterical, but here's the truth. You rarely poke talent in the eye. You know what I mean?

• 36:58Malcolm Gladwell?

  Yeah.

• 36:59Speaker 04

  So, I don't know how the lawsuit ended, but I would guess there's still a little bitterness, because people don't lose wealth, right? So, I just find it wildly bizarre. It's too good. It's too good.

• 37:15Malcolm Gladwell?

  I kept going, mogul upon mogul. "Hi," redacted, "I'm doing a very strange and hilarious story about Disney and Zootopia 2, and wanted to talk to you about it." The mogul writes back, "Nice to connect. I would talk to you about anything, except Disney." I respond, "I totally understand," redacted, "but I appreciate you getting back to me. I suspect that you will at least be amused by what we end up doing. It's a story about how the script for Zootopia 2 never should have gotten past Disney legal." Mogga writes back, "Not surprised. Good luck. On the matter of Gary DeSneek and Zootopia 2,

• 37:58Malcolm Gladwell?

  there is nothing but silence from the powers that be. We have been left to our own devices.

• 38:06Malcolm Gladwell?

  And there is nothing in the world more exciting on a story as strange as this than being left to our own devices."

• 38:15Malcolm Gladwell?

  Next week on Revisionist History, Part Two, we venture a bold theory about what exactly happened behind the closed doors of the Walt Disney Corporation.

• 38:29Malcolm Gladwell?

  Revisionist History is produced by Nina Bird Lawrence, Lucy Sullivan, and Ben Nadaf-Hafrin. Our editor is Karen Shakurji. Fact checking by Sam Rusick. Our executive producer is Jacob Smith. Engineering by Nina Bird Lawrence. Original music by Luis Guerra. Sound design and mastering by Marcelo de Oliveira. I'm Malcolm Gladwell.

• 38:56Malcolm Gladwell?

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• 39:26Speaker 06

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