#341 Katarina Szulc - Cartels Are Recruiting Drone Operators From the Ukraine War

Katarina Szulc is a Canadian investigative journalist based in Mexico, known for her on-the-ground reporting on cartel violence, organized crime, political corruption, and security issues. After beginning her career in traditional newsrooms with outlets including CBC and CityNews Vancouver, she shifted toward independent field reporting to get closer to the stories unfolding on the ground. Through her work and Borderland: Dispatches, Szulc reports from some of Mexico’s most volatile regions, tracking cartel leadership, evolving criminal tactics, and the growing intersection between organized crime, technology, and modern warfare. Shawn Ryan Show Sponsors: Privacy Isn't Paranoia. It's Protection. Download Glacier - https://theglacierapp.com Get 31% off Buoy unflavored liquid electrolytes for any drink with code SRS at https://justaddbuoy.com Try 30 days risk free. Get 10% off at https://tecovas.com/SRS when you sign up for email and texts. See site for details. Sheath. The underwear of legends. Go to https://www.sheath.com/SRS and use code SRS for 20% off. Katarina Szulc Links: X - https://x.com/KatarinaSzulc Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/katarinaszulc Substack - https://katarinaszulc.substack.com YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@katarinaszulc Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Now, more than ever, we need someone on our side. But Rob Whitman? Whitman's votes drove up costs, cut Medicaid, and risked 350,000 Virginians' health care to pay for tax breaks for himself and his donors. He's not on our side. Shannon Taylor will fight corruption, cut taxes, and bring down costs. This November, vote for Shannon Taylor. She's for us. Paid for by HMP, the HouseMajorityPac.com. Not authorized by any candidate or candidate's committee.

• 0:31Speaker 01

  FX's American Horror Story returns for an unrivaled 13th installment with the iconic horrors you love to fear and an all-star cast reprising fan-favorite roles. Light your candles, draw your pentagrams, and prepare for a supreme surprise. FX's American Horror Story 13. Now streaming on Hulu.

• 1:05Shawn Ryan?

  Katerina Schultz.

• 1:06Speaker 03

  Sean Ryan.

• 1:07Shawn Ryan?

  Welcome back.

• 1:08Speaker 03

  Thank you for having me back.

• 1:09Shawn Ryan?

  Thanks for coming back. You've been busy.

• 1:12Speaker 03

  Truly.

• 1:14Shawn Ryan?

  How many places have you been? When is the first? We met like two years ago, I think.

• 1:18Speaker 03

  No, we met last year.

• 1:19Shawn Ryan?

  Was it last year?

• 1:20Speaker 03

  A little over a year ago. Yeah.

• 1:22Shawn Ryan?

  Wow. How many places have you been since then? Do you even count them?

• 1:25Speaker 03

  I actually couldn't tell you off the top of my head. Everywhere. It feels like... Yeah, I can't tell you off the top of my head. There's been so much.

• 1:33Shawn Ryan?

  Where's your favorite place you've been?

• 1:35Speaker 03

  In the last year?

• 1:36Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:37Speaker 03

  Ukraine.

• 1:38Shawn Ryan?

  Really?

• 1:38Speaker 03

  Yeah. I love Eastern Europe. And I was really interested in the war and like doing the certain stories that I went to do that I felt like didn't have any coverage. So... And everyone was so kind. Like, it was a very different experience for me.

• 1:55Shawn Ryan?

  Interesting. Well, I mean, it's not surprising that's your favorite place, especially with the conversation we just had, you know, prior to being on air here, that your first passion is being a war correspondent.

• 2:06Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:06Shawn Ryan?

  So...

• 2:07Speaker 03

  That was the goal.

• 2:08Shawn Ryan?

  Well, here, let me give you an interdu... A, uh, excuse me, an interdu? An introduction. You're a former traditional journalist who realized you had to get out of the newsroom to understand what was really happening on the ground. Now based in Mexico City, you report on cartels, organized crime, and political corruption through your work in Borderland Dispatches, often traveling directly into the regions where these stories are unfolding. Today, you're back to share updates on some of our past discussions and break down your latest reporting from the field. Welcome back.

• 2:43Speaker 03

  Thanks.

• 2:44Shawn Ryan?

  All right, so... Since we last spoke, I know you've spent a ton of time in Ukraine, but if you remember right, I think we opened the show last time with this Valeria Marquez.

• 2:57Speaker 03

  Valeria Marquez.

• 2:58Shawn Ryan?

  Valeria Marquez.

• 2:59Speaker 03

  And when we spoke about that, people, it really popped off. People wanted to know more.

• 3:04Shawn Ryan?

  So this is just a recap for the audience.

• 3:06Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 3:07Shawn Ryan?

  She was a TikTok influencer?

• 3:09Speaker 03

  She was a TikTok influencer. She also Instagram, did like beauty pageants and stuff. Pretty well-known across Mexico and particularly in Guadalajara. And she was shot three times, murdered, on TikTok Live last year, over a year ago now.

• 3:30Speaker 03

  And for the longest time, it wasn't until last month, someone was officially accused by the Mexican government for putting the hit on her. Prior to that, the United States government actually gave their own accusation, so to speak. They said that El Doble R, a major figure, high in the ranks in CGNG, the Jalisco New Generation Cartel, was responsible for it. They sanctioned him, did all that business, the OFAC list. And then Mexico denied that. And Mexico said they were still investigating. And then, just recently,

• 4:13Speaker 03

  they, Mexico, arrested R1, high-ranking member within the Rs. Everyone kind of has a R name in CGNG.

• 4:24Shawn Ryan?

  Why is that?

• 4:26Speaker 03

  It's just that sort of sub-cell of CGNG, in a way. Los R's, R1, R2, R3.

• 4:33Shawn Ryan?

  So these are like call signs?

• 4:35Speaker 03

  Yep, call signs. And so they arrested this individual for the murder of Carlos Manzo, a mayor of a town in Michoacan, who was very outspoken against cartels and the violence. And he was murdered in broad daylight. It was an assassination, very similar to Valeria's assassination. So R1 was arrested for that murder. And then Omar Garcia Harfuch, the Secretary of Security of Mexico, did a press conference saying, you know, "We've finally taken someone into custody for not only their ties with this major criminal organization, but for the murder particularly of Carlos Manzo."

• 5:20Speaker 03

  Now, we are looking for his son, who they believe put the hit on Valeria Marquez. And this young man was in a romantic relationship with Valeria Marquez. Actually, Luis Chaparro went to Mexico and interviewed this guy, who's hiding from authorities right now.

• 5:40Shawn Ryan?

  Really?

• 5:40Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm.

• 5:42Shawn Ryan?

  How do you feel about that? Interviewing somebody that's hiding from authorities? Do you feel like there is... Have you done that?

• 5:49Speaker 03

  I've definitely interviewed criminals who have, who are being looked for, yes.

• 5:55Shawn Ryan?

  Do you feel any type of responsibility to...

• 5:58Speaker 03

  Give them up?

• 5:59Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 5:59Speaker 03

  It's not my job.

• 6:00Shawn Ryan?

  Not your job.

• 6:01Speaker 03

  And here's the thing, right? If I can get to them, or other journalists can get to these individuals, how is law enforcement unable to get to them?

• 6:13Shawn Ryan?

  Good point.

• 6:13Speaker 03

  Right? So, especially in Mexico, it's definitely a level of... I don't know, it's a lack of motivation to get the bad guy.

• 6:26Shawn Ryan?

  Why do you think the... I mean, if these guys are wanted so bad, you know what I mean? And I know Luis very well.

• 6:32Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 6:33Shawn Ryan?

  And...

• 6:33Speaker 03

  Did you watch the interview?

• 6:35Shawn Ryan?

  I didn't even know he did it. I've lost touch with him.

• 6:37Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's like a 40-minute-long interview. He went, even documented getting there. He actually called me when the contact was first made between him and the accused and was like, "I think that I'm gonna be able to interview this guy." Because, and he let me know because I had obviously been doing a ton of reporting and following the Valeria case. And I was like, "Can I go with you?" And he's like, "I don't think so. This is very much, keep it low-key, and this guy wants to clear his name." And my first question was, "How safe do you feel? Like, do you trust that this isn't a setup?" Right? Because there's a lot of violence against journalists in Mexico,

• 7:20Speaker 03

  especially against individuals like us who are particularly focused on organized crime in the cartels and, you know, shady government officials. And he was like... I think he told me he was kind of 50/50. He was leaning towards more that it was legit interview, but that it was worth the risk. And I fully agreed with that. So, and he went and spoke to this individual. I watched the interview. This kid wants to clear his name and says that he was in a relationship with Valeria, but he would never kill her. He actually cared about her. And he was living in an apartment building really close to the beauty salon, her beauty salon where she was murdered in.

• 8:03Speaker 03

  Because, you know, if for people watching who don't know, she was on live in her beauty salon and she was getting messages that she was going to receive gifts that day, which wasn't uncommon for Valeria. A lot of people liked her. A lot of people had crushes on her. She was a really attractive young girl. And she first, she receives two gifts. First receives a gift. A delivery driver on a motorcycle comes and brings her Starbucks and then brings her a pig teddy bear, like a stuffed animal, a pig,

• 8:46Speaker 03

  which, right off the bat, bad sign in Mexico. You know, there's a lot of times where hits are taken out or people are assassinated in a pig head. Doesn't happen so much anymore, but perhaps in like early 2010s, a pig head would be left there to signal that that murdered person was a rat or, you know, dirty, puerco. So she gets that. Doesn't really clock it, but she does start to say in this live, "I'm worried. I'm nervous. I feel like something's wrong." She says at one point, "I think they're gonna levantarme. They're gonna kidnap me." And at the same time, her best friend, Vivian, is texting her, telling her, "Don't..." Because she wanted to end the live. And her best friend is telling her,

• 9:31Speaker 03

  "Don't leave. Wait. There's a really expensive gift coming for you." And Valeria says in the livestream, "Ooh, an expensive gift. Un regalo costoso." She says that. And then the delivery guy, you can't see what's happening outside of the salon because her camera, her phone is facing her and there's a wall behind her, but she's looking outside of the salon. And I guess she sees that the delivery guy is coming. And she mutes the live. And at that point, the individual comes in and shoots her three times and she dies holding the pig stuffed animal. And in this interview

• 10:13Speaker 03

  with the individual who's accused of killing her or putting the hit on her, he says that he loved her, that they had fights, but he never would have killed her. And there was documented conflict and toxicity in her relationship with him. She posted screenshots on her Instagram story of how someone she was in a relationship was threatening her in messages, saying, "You don't want to find out what kind of guy I become or what I'm capable of when you piss me off." And I think, if I remember correctly, in the interview...

• 10:49Shawn Ryan?

  Did Luis bring that up in the interview? What did he say to that?

• 10:52Speaker 03

  About the threats and stuff. And I don't know if he said explicitly those messages, but he brought up the toxicity or how she had claimed one time that when she showed up to a nightclub that he was at, he got her kicked out. And the accused says, "You know, we're just like two young people in love and it's part of a toxic relationship. Of course, we had conflict, like any relationship, but never to the point where I would want her to be killed," is what he said.

• 11:26Speaker 03

  But I mean, when you, and he says that she knew what family he came from. Uh, and that, you know, she knew his dad, his parents, his family, uh, and vice versa. He knew hers. But

• 11:43Speaker 03

  I think, I mean, my opinion doesn't matter on this case, but when you're talking about someone who, you know, he claims that he cared about her and never wanted her to die, and that it should have never resulted in that, then go to the authorities. Speak your truth, you know?

• 12:05Shawn Ryan?

  So was that R1 he interviewed?

• 12:07Speaker 03

  No, R1's son.

• 12:08Shawn Ryan?

  R1's son, excuse me.

• 12:09Speaker 03

  So R1 is accused of killing Carlos Manzo.

• 12:12Shawn Ryan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 12:13Speaker 03

  And in the same breath, his son was accused of asking R1 to send someone to kill Valeria.

• 12:20Shawn Ryan?

  Is R1's son affiliated, I mean, is he active in the cartels or is he just, you know, got a relation to R1?

• 12:26Speaker 03

  Well, he says no, and that, you know, it's his family and he, you know, whatever one does is their business type of thing, but.

• 12:34Shawn Ryan?

  Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

• 12:36Speaker 03

  Read between the lines.

• 12:37Shawn Ryan?

  Why, why do you think, you know, when these guys are wanted, I can, I could see this guy because he wants people to think he's innocent.

• 12:43Speaker 03

  He's innocent. He wants to clear his name.

• 12:44Shawn Ryan?

  But let's just go back. I mean, you've interviewed guys that are wanted by, by authorities. What are they doing? Like, that's just shitty tradecraft to me. Why are they talking to investigative journalists? Why are they not undercover all the time? Is that the ego? Do they just want to see themselves in the media?

• 13:04Speaker 03

  Ego is part of it, but, um, a big part too is getting their version out. It's PR. And, you know, we've seen this time and time again, uh, with cartels. They're big into PR. They'll put out sort of their own, like, press releases. Um, whether that be like, they'll start circulating an official document or when they put the narco banners around the city or near dead bodies. Um, that's PR for them. They're sending messages to the public. Um, even you'll see videos, uh, the Cartel del Noreste is really, uh, known for this, where they'll set up a camera, CG and G does this too. They'll set up a camera and you'll have all the

• 13:46Speaker 03

  armed operatives of the cartel and then one guy in the middle announcing a message, saying something. They did that for a lot of like big news stories that came out, painting them in a really bad light to kind of clear their names or clarify the details of whatever they're doing. And then when it comes to speaking to journalists, it's of course a combination of, uh, PR. So, you know, for, like, for this accused killer of Valeria, now there's this interview of him speaking his so-called truth, right? So he can kind of, in his hopes, clear his name, uh, give his side of the story. But also

• 14:32Speaker 03

  it sends a message of, yeah, ego and power. Catch me if you can. You know, there's this manhunt for me and I'm sitting here comfortable speaking to a journalist on camera for the world to see.

• 14:48Shawn Ryan?

  I wonder, I mean, why don't you think that?

• 14:53Shawn Ryan?

  How bad do you think they really want these guys?

• 14:56Speaker 03

  Who, Mexico or the US?

• 14:57Shawn Ryan?

  Either one. Maybe, it seems like it'd be pretty simple. Maybe not you, but money talks, you know, it would be pretty simple to flip a journalist or

• 15:11Speaker 03

  It happens a lot in Mexico.

• 15:12Shawn Ryan?

  Introduce a fake news organization and build rapport through time. Like, oh, look at all these articles reporter A has done since, well, started today, 2026. Then a couple of years go by and it's just, you know what I mean? And then you can use this army of undercover journalists to feed these guys' ego, to find out where they are. Done. I mean, I don't think it would take long to replace, you know, to replace the leadership. I mean, if there was a point in time during the, the global war on terror where I think the number two had like a we were killing the number two every two weeks.

• 15:51Speaker 03

  Yeah, which is happening now again.

• 15:53Shawn Ryan?

  You know what I mean?

• 15:54Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm.

• 15:54Shawn Ryan?

  So I don't think it would be any different, uh, with the cartel, but still, I mean, it's a it makes people, you, you know what I mean? It shows we can get to you.

• 16:03Speaker 03

  Well, I, I would hope that they don't start using journalists as like employees like that because I would not get any access and my life would be in danger. So.

• 16:11Shawn Ryan?

  You know what I mean though, right?

• 16:12Speaker 03

  Yeah, I.

• 16:13Shawn Ryan?

  That's why I'm asking, like, it can't be, if you're getting to them and Chaparro is getting to them and all these other journalists, I mean, they can't be that hard to get to. You just have to build some type of a presence to feed that ego.

• 16:27Speaker 03

  Yeah, that too. Um, I think also, cause, you know, I have a really good track record of, well, a clear one of being able to speak with victims and perpetrators, high-level individuals and they don't get caught afterwards. You know, I'm not like leading them into like a trap. Uh, that's actually my biggest fear. Like, if that were to ever happen, I'm super careful about that. I'm more scared of that than just getting shot dead, like set up. Um, but

• 17:00Speaker 03

  I think when you ask, you know, how badly do they want them? Mexico doesn't want them badly. They, cartels make up so much of Mexico's economy. You eradicate cartels, you eradicate the Mexican economy, point blank. And so many high-level politicians, ranking officials that are on the payroll that directly benefit off of organized crime. Why would they want that to end?

• 17:27Shawn Ryan?

  Mm-hmm. I mean, it makes, you know, makes sense. It does make sense. So what is the, let's switch gears here a little bit. What, what's the landscape like down there? Who's in charge now? There's always a battle. So it's like a full-scale war down there. I mean.

• 17:43Speaker 03

  It really is. Did you see what I posted yesterday? There were, um, car bombs and IDs going off in Zacatecas, Mexico because there's a very active cell of CG and G in Zacatecas called Fuerzas Zacatecas Nueva Generación. So New Generation Zacatecas Forces. It's a sub-cell of CG and G. And there's someone who I've actually been, who's a kind of on my radar within that cell, who's been really quickly climbing through the ranks of power. And it's very clear that this cell of CG and G is becoming a very violent and powerful one.

• 18:26Shawn Ryan?

  Before, before we go into.

• 18:27Speaker 03

  Sorry, I get.

• 18:28Shawn Ryan?

  No, no, no, I don't.

• 18:29Speaker 03

  The landscape.

• 18:30Shawn Ryan?

  Don't let me forget that either. Yeah, the landscape. I mean, I think last time, if I remember correctly, it seemed, I, I think it was Sinaloa.

• 18:38Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 18:39Shawn Ryan?

  It was kind of running everything. So.

• 18:41Speaker 03

  No, it was, when I spoke to you last time, it was CG and G and Sinaloa was already fully in their whole civil war, the infighting. Um, and now it's of course CG and G, extremely powerful. And they're essentially absorbing the Chapitos faction of the Sinaloa cartel, El Chapo's faction, because they made an alliance, an alliance with them, fighting against the Mayos, Mayito Flacos faction of the Sinaloa cartel. Um, and when I was in Sinaloa this summer, I went to Culiacan and across Sinaloa for a couple of weeks, just to kind of get the two-year update since El Mayo was captured.

• 19:23Speaker 03

  Sean, it was like, you're just,

• 19:26Speaker 03

  you're not walking in a city, you're walking in a morgue. Okay?

• 19:29Shawn Ryan?

  Sheesh.

• 19:31Speaker 03

  From the moment I got there, I drove from Mazatlán to Culiacan because I wanted to go through the towns and kind of try to get a grasp of who's controlling which areas because it's ever-evolving. And when you're going through these small towns, you're taking that highway from Mazatlán to Culiacan, and I took the old highway, not the new highway. So it's like, I guess in layman's terms, like more dangerous, like just to really understand it. You can see who's controlling there. You know, you'll see the white sombreros, which represent, okay, this area, Mayito's faction. Um, and, and I drove through there. As soon as I touched down in Culiacan,

• 20:15Speaker 03

  uh, you know, I let all my journalist friends over there, incredible journalists over there, fucking fearless. I told them, you know, I'm coming, like, keep me in the loop with any big activity. As soon as I got there, they're like, all right, there has been a murder. You want to pull up? It was far. I didn't end up going. And then there was another one. And then there was another one. So within the first four hours that I got to Culiacan, I think I went to six different crime scenes. I posted that video on my YouTube channel. And you just see me going from one scene to the next, to the next, and

• 20:50Speaker 03

  as the clips go on, you know, the sun is just going down and it's just constant. It was brutal. And, um, at a lot of these scenes, you know, families outside distraught, crying. And I showed that in my video and, and some people gave me flack. They were like, so insensitive. You know, this is the reality of it. And I think a lot of the times

• 21:15Speaker 03

  the collateral victims of war and cartel violence are, you know, these family members. They're also victims of murder in a way. Their lives change forever. And it's very, I mean, you've probably seen it. One thing that really gets me, it's not seeing the dead body. People ask like, how do you see the dead bodies? It's not about that.

• 21:36Speaker 03

  What I find is to be the most jarring is when you literally see the shift in the victims' families. You literally watch the realization happen in real time that their lives will never be the same again. Like, tonight is my first night without my son for the rest of my life.

• 21:53Shawn Ryan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 21:54Speaker 03

  And, and they witnessed him get killed. But a lot of these murders, well, most of them in Sinaloa, uh, these victims are involved in organized crime. It's, this civil war continues on. Um, and a lot of the people being murdered now are people who are switching sides. So a lot of people have switched from Chapitos faction to Mayos faction, Mayito Flacos faction. And those people are, are the ones being targeted heavily.

• 22:28Shawn Ryan?

  I'm always skeptical of health products that look clean on the front of the label, and then you turn it around and it's full of sugar, sweeteners, flavors, or artificial ingredients. I got so tired of looking for a clean way to hydrate that I eventually almost designed my own product. And then I found Buoy. Buoy is purposefully unflavored liquid electrolytes and trace minerals. No sugar, no sweeteners, no flavors, no artificial ingredients. I just add one squeeze to water, tea, or whatever I'm already drinking, and it makes that drink more hydrating. And a little goes a long way. Each two-ounce bottle has more electrolyte content than 13 sports drinks.

• 23:12Shawn Ryan?

  It's third-party tested for pathogens, microplastics, and heavy metals. And according to a university-led clinical trial, Buoy electrolytes are clinically proven to hydrate 64% more than water alone, and 49% more than a leading electrolyte. If you want to make your favorite drinks more hydrating, head to justaddbuoy.com/shawn and use code SRS to get 31% off the liquid electrolyte discovery set with more drops for gut health, brain health, energy, immunity, and more. I've been liking the immunity drops, and you can try them 30 days risk-free.

• 23:55Shawn Ryan?

  Buoy also offers a chronic illness lifetime support program for people living with chronic illness. It takes two minutes to apply. I suggest you check it out. Again, head to justaddbuoy.com/shawn and use code SRS. Well, that's interesting you bring switching sides up because that's where I wanted to go with this. How often are you seeing power exchange in Mexico, but from prominent cartel to prominent cartel?

• 24:27Speaker 03

  I can't even keep up with it right now.

• 24:30Shawn Ryan?

  Okay, so they own the vast majority of politicians down there, run off the cartels.

• 24:37Speaker 03

  Of course.

• 24:38Shawn Ryan?

  And so what I want to know is, how are they navigating that? How are politicians down there who are for sale, which sounds like it's pretty much all of them, not unlike the US?

• 24:51Speaker 03

  There's a lot of them.

• 24:52Shawn Ryan?

  I mean, how do they know when to switch sides? Or are they getting killed all the time? Because that can be, obviously, a very tricky game, especially, I mean, if prominent cartel gets taken over by another cartel and then this one comes back.

• 25:08Speaker 03

  What do you do?

• 25:09Shawn Ryan?

  Exactly.

• 25:10Speaker 03

  So, okay, great example of this is Ruben Rochamoya, governor of Sinaloa. I think last time I was on your podcast, I said, "This guy is the most corrupt motherfucker ever." And he was just indicted by the US a couple months ago. This is someone who has had a very strong alliance with the Chapitos faction of the Sinaloa cartel, with El Chapo. And he has been profiting off of it for a long time, openly, at the cost of the people in that state.

• 25:46Speaker 03

  Now, to kind of paint you a picture, he was having a sort of dispute with a state legislator in Sinaloa. This was right before El Mayo was captured. And this was kind of part of the whole bigger picture of how the Sinaloa cartel, or how El Chapo's faction at least, and his family are going to move forward and be protected. So, when El Mayo was captured, it was because he was set up by El Chapo's son to go to a meeting to resolve the conflict between the governor of Sinaloa, Rochamoya, and this

• 26:30Speaker 03

  state legislator. His name escapes me right now. When he gets there, he allegedly gets beaten up, and then he ends up on that small aircraft that lands him in Santa Teresa, New Mexico, where he's taken in by the FBI. Rochamoya walked out of that meeting alive and continued to be governor of Sinaloa. The legislator was murdered during that encounter. So, I think what a lot of these politicians are doing, they're playing the game as far as they can get, to the point where, I think a lot of them, at this point particularly, their hands are sort of tied.

• 27:14Speaker 03

  I'm not defending them by any means. I hate these guys. But their hands are tied in the sense of, they can't move too much to the left, or too much to the right, or talk to this guy, or do this action, because they will get murdered. So, yeah, it's...

• 27:31Shawn Ryan?

  Do they have a choice? I mean, are they interested in monetary value, you know, in being paid off? Are they interested in just keeping their lives?

• 27:45Speaker 03

  You know what my belief about this is? Hot take: if you're going to become a politician in Mexico, and you want to be a good politician, either fucking stand your ground and be willing to die for it and be good, or don't do it. Because the only other option is, you're doing it either with the incentive to make dirty money and be on the payroll, or you're doing it scared and haphazardly and accepting the pay or doing what they want, and you're a bad politician. And everyone's suffering because of it.

• 28:18Shawn Ryan?

  I guess there's no surprises either at this point. I mean, it's pretty obvious, you know, what you're walking into.

• 28:24Speaker 03

  Of course it is, of course.

• 28:29Shawn Ryan?

  Are there any legit politicians down there?

• 28:31Speaker 03

  I think, you know, Carlos Manzo was one of them. That was someone who really took a stand against organized crime. Liliteyes, she's in the Senate, I believe. She's a Mexican politician. She really speaks out against organized crime, and she'll call out these corrupt officials by name. But they're very few and far in between. And the reason for that is because when the president of the country herself is profiting off of organized crime and allowing it to happen, how can anyone else at a lower level be clean?

• 29:11Shawn Ryan?

  Good point. So let's move back to, you were talking about somebody that you were interested in that's been rising through the ranks.

• 29:19Speaker 03

  Ah, yeah. So, Zacatecas has become a hot, well, I mean, Zacatecas was always known as a big cartel hotspot. And any time that I go there or pitch a story to do over there, no one wants me to go because everyone thinks I'm going to die. Hasn't happened yet, touch wood. But there's a lot going on there, and I find that Zacatecas is a really good region to kind of understand the greater landscape of not only CJ and G's control of the state, but cartels in general. Like, what we're seeing in Zacatecas is that CJ and G has this stronghold, and they're,

• 30:04Speaker 03

  because of their alliance, but because of just who they are, they're fighting against Mayo's faction of Sinaloa cartel operating in Zacatecas. This sub-cell formed, and it has now become extremely powerful, the new generation Zacatecas forces, where they are just killing and waging war against Maite Flaco's faction of the cartel, and any of the Mayos operating in Zacatecas, but also law enforcement. And they actually killed a police officer yesterday. I think it was just one, it may have been more, but there was one for sure. And they're really showing their power there.

• 30:48Speaker 03

  And a lot of these guys were actually with the metros under El Sapo, who's also a major figure within CJ and G. So, I know it's a lot of names and words, but it's important because it shows how all of these sub-cells and groups, especially pertaining to CJ and G, are in a way connected. And because of how these sub-cells and certain high-ranking Plaza bosses or commanders within CJ and G have their own loyal followings, that has been what's perpetuated this overall control that CJ and G has gained across all of Mexico.

• 31:33Speaker 03

  And that's a big part of why when El Mencho was captured, killed in February, we didn't see like this huge breakdown of CJ and G and infighting and extreme violence. I mean, you know, there was like a blip of buses were on fire, National Guard was getting attacked, but we weren't seeing like this re-structuralization and house of cards falling in of CJ and G, which could have been expected, considering their leader, the kingpin, was taken out. But because there are so many strong entities within CJ and G, and it's operating like

• 32:12Speaker 03

  a Fortune 500 with major figures with their own loyal followings, the amount of control and power they have over so much of the population and the country, it's hard to even like grasp it.

• 32:30Shawn Ryan?

  Who would, I mean, when you're talking about subsidiaries to major cartels, I mean, why even have subsidiaries under different names? Why don't they just absorb them under the same name?

• 32:43Speaker 03

  Okay, from my understanding, the reason why they do it is to maintain strong, loyal, and intact territorial control within smaller regions, right? The naming thing has to do with who's the leader and to know like, okay, this group commits an act. Yes, we are CJ and G, but that's us. You know, it's not just the broader CJ and G. Does that make sense?

• 33:13Shawn Ryan?

  No.

• 33:14Speaker 03

  It doesn't?

• 33:15Shawn Ryan?

  Can you, I mean, I'm thinking of it like Hells Angels, the Mongols.

• 33:21Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 33:22Shawn Ryan?

  The Gambino crime family, like all these other organized crime organizations, to my knowledge, they're all under one hierarchy.

• 33:30Speaker 03

  One umbrella.

• 33:31Shawn Ryan?

  Correct? And then you have the Los Angeles chapter, the San Antonio chapter, the Chicago chapter, the DC chapter, the Miami chapter, but they all fall under...

• 33:44Shawn Ryan?

  One conglomerate.

• 33:44Speaker 03

  It is kind of like that in the sense. So when we're talking about FZNG, the Seca Tekas forces, that sub-cell. They're responsible for certain trafficking pipelines, certain amount of control in that region, paying off specific politicians and law enforcement. And so in a way, even though they're part of this great organization, they're also running their own independent operations that still are benefiting the greater organization.

• 34:18Shawn Ryan?

  Okay.

• 34:19Speaker 03

  Is that better?

• 34:19Shawn Ryan?

  Makes sense.

• 34:20Speaker 03

  Okay, sorry, sometimes I get lost in the sauce, you know, I'm so in the weeds with it. You know, sometimes someone who has no knowledge will ask me like, hey, so, yeah, the cartel? And it's just like a million miles a minute? What the hell are you talking about?

• 34:34Shawn Ryan?

  So who oversees the entire thing? Is there one person that oversees the entire thing?

• 34:39Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's Zero Three now, it's El Mencho's stepson. He is, he was, um...

• 34:45Shawn Ryan?

  How does he ensure his visions being played out over that many different organizations?

• 34:50Speaker 03

  Because he has good relationships with other high commanders who have, you know, it's like a, like a higher, like a triangle, right? You'll have him at the top, and then you've got these top commanders, and then you've got the Plaza bosses, and then you've got so-and-so down here and sub-cell leader and miscellaneous individuals even lower, right? That message is always getting passed through, and the higher up you go, those individuals, Plaza bosses, commanders, are ensuring that people are acting in line. Everyone underneath is doing what the boss wants.

• 35:27Shawn Ryan?

  Do you ever see any subsidiary cartels move in as kind of a Trojan horse to take down the entire... Do you see what I'm saying?

• 35:36Speaker 03

  Yes, but so far that has not happened with CJNG.

• 35:39Shawn Ryan?

  But you have seen it before.

• 35:40Speaker 03

  It's definitely happened, and that's why we see factions splinter off and cartels completely dissolve, and new ones are created. I mean, like, Los Setas do not exist anymore, but...

• 35:54Shawn Ryan?

  Those are the guys that were the all-special ops guys, supposedly, right?

• 35:59Speaker 03

  Yeah, and most, like, the head guys are now in the United States, they were part of the first fugitive transfer, Seta Cuarenta, and, yeah, they were very violent, they were the special forces guys, the ops guys, but, um, and they're trained by US forces. But back to the splintering off, that does happen, where one massive organization will sort of have sub-cells emerging, and now it's more localized loyalty as opposed to, like, the kingpin. And so if that individual says, you know what? F it, I'm gonna start my own cartel, they can go and do that.

• 36:43Speaker 03

  And there will be a lot of bloodshed associated with that, and, you know, kind of all-out war at times. But if they're successful, then they're starting their own operation, and they're making their own contacts, or they already had contacts with the Colombians and the Guatemalans and the Americans and even the Canadians, right, and the ports in Spain, so they can do that. We haven't seen that happen with CJNG yet. However, I believe that there are two significant figures high up within CJNG who I could picture being, could splitting off and starting their own thing in a near future.

• 37:26Speaker 03

  I'm not 100% about that, but I have seen and been told some things from sources, that there's a little bit of conflict, it dies down pretty quick, there's a difference in opinion or how things should run, and those two individuals respectively have their own significant loyal followings and territories that they control. So if they really wanted to, they could. However, being a unified organization means more money.

• 38:03Shawn Ryan?

  That makes sense. I mean, I would imagine the rift in, inside each cartel is pretty bad, too.

• 38:12Speaker 03

  Hmm. There was a big rift when El Mencho was killed. And it was, it was hard for me to verify it at first, but... Look, I'm not doing this to be dramatic, I just, I don't want to give too many details because, you know, I go back to Mexico and I, you know? Um, but there was someone very high-ranking within CJNG, a known figure, who, after El Mencho was killed, really wanted to up the ante on the violence, and to send some pretty wicked messages.

• 38:53Speaker 03

  And another high-ranking member said, absolutely not, squash that shit. And it ended there. But I think that was kind of like, that really did it for me, it was like a telltale sign, okay. Motivations might be changing, ideologies are shifting here, not everyone is fully on the same page. And there's been a lot of change in this organization, because El Mencho was the leader. And now, it's his stepson, Zero Tres, which essentially means that there's been this resurgence of the Millenio cartel. CJNG is essentially run by the Queenies, the Valencia family, who were the ones who

• 39:39Speaker 03

  started trafficking, exporting cocaine into the United States. They had those Colombian connections, and they had the pathways into the United States because they were exporting avocados from Michoacan. And now this is the very family that always had the money behind CJNG, but now they are also the muscle and the leaders.

• 40:02Shawn Ryan?

  Wow, that's interesting, I was gonna bring up, you know, what are, every time I talk to you, or Luis, or Ed, it seems like the business lines change, you know?

• 40:13Speaker 03

  Because it always is.

• 40:14Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah, so, I mean, I don't want to lose this question either, so we'll get to that, but how much, you're talking about just mass violence, I mean...

• 40:24Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 40:24Shawn Ryan?

  You went to, what did you, Sinaloa, I think you said, and you saw six murders in the first four hours, and that's just you. I'm sure there's plenty of other murders that are happening simultaneously.

• 40:35Speaker 03

  Hundred percent.

• 40:35Shawn Ryan?

  What, I mean, what, what, do you have any idea, what's the estimation of how much of the Mexican population is involved, at a low level, at a high level, just involved on the cartel's payroll? From the street lookout people to the, the, to the assassins, to the politicians, I mean, is it the entire country?

• 41:00Speaker 03

  That's a big one, um...

• 41:02Shawn Ryan?

  Is there anybody that's not involved?

• 41:05Speaker 03

  Of course, yeah. I have some really great friends who are not involved.

• 41:10Shawn Ryan?

  So you think?

• 41:12Speaker 03

  Uh, no, no, there's definitely a lot of people who are not, but the vast majority have some sort of nexus to the organized crime, and it makes sense, right? Like, if we're looking...

• 41:25Shawn Ryan?

  Would you say over 50%?

• 41:27Speaker 03

  Yeah, I was gonna say that, definitely over 50%.

• 41:29Shawn Ryan?

  Would you say over 75%?

• 41:31Speaker 03

  I don't know, I don't know. But it's, it's a lot more than half. If we're looking at it from like, you know, an economy perspective, the cartels are like the third-largest employer in Mexico, I think.

• 41:51Shawn Ryan?

  What's number one? I'm surprised it sounded like one.

• 41:57Speaker 03

  Probably agriculture, that's a great question. I'm gonna sound like a dumbass, because I actually don't have this off the top of my head, but I know that they're in the top five of, probably top three of employers, which, how do you even?

• 42:15Speaker 03

  Quantify that.

• 42:17Shawn Ryan?

  I don't know if it is. I don't know if you can do it.

• 42:19Speaker 03

  No, yeah, but it's when you're then including, okay, politicians on the payroll,

• 42:27Speaker 03

  law enforcement. So people who, and when I mean law enforcement, people who are not actively trafficking drugs or arms, but rather just simplest of it, turning a blind eye, looking the other way. Inherently, then, you are part of organized crime, right? But you're not technically a criminal, so it's certainly over 50%. It's definitely a really disheartening percentage.

• 42:57Shawn Ryan?

  I mean, it is. It just makes me like, what hope do they have?

• 43:02Speaker 03

  The hope is that the culture is beautiful when you look past all of this.

• 43:06Shawn Ryan?

  Okay.

• 43:07Speaker 03

  You're like, shut the hell up.

• 43:09Shawn Ryan?

  So what, are there other South Central American countries that aren't overtaken by this? How, how, how far into Central South America is this?

• 43:21Speaker 03

  Oh, very deep.

• 43:22Shawn Ryan?

  Is this infiltrated?

• 43:23Speaker 03

  It goes, okay, so Guatemala, big part of it, okay? They're consumed.

• 43:32Speaker 03

  Ecuador, same, and then it goes low. Colombia, Venezuela, Peru, Brazil even. So the connections.

• 43:43Shawn Ryan?

  Influenced by Mexican cartel?

• 43:45Speaker 03

  Or at least have connections with them. You know what's interesting? You bring up the influence of that. So when I went to Colombia in January, I went right when Maduro was captured, because I wanted to get into Venezuela, and they had closed their airspace. So I went to Cucuta, which is a small town in Colombia, right along the Venezuelan border. And Cucuta, at one point in time, especially when El Chapo was, you know, still free and running the Sinaloa cartel, was a major hotspot for Chapo's operators. And a lot of, you know, even his family members, his nephews and major commanders within, in Sinaloa cartel,

• 44:28Speaker 03

  were going to Cucuta to run operations from within Colombia. And it's not too far from Catatumbo, which is where you'll see those hectares of coca plant grow ops. I actually took a helicopter ride to see, and all you see are just coca leaves for miles and miles. And so the, the presence isn't really there as much anymore since 2010. And when I went there, there is so much even cultural influence from Mexico because of the time when the Mexican cartels were using this as like a hub for trafficking cocaine.

• 45:10Speaker 03

  So I, and I think that paints a really good picture when you ask me of, you know, what's the influence further south in South America, deeper in Latin America of the cartels? Well, they've been around for so long and, and their ties and nexus to these countries and the individuals operating within them is so strong that they've even managed cultural influence over them.

• 45:34Speaker 03

  You go to this small bar in the middle of nowhere, along the Colombian Venezuelan border, and they're playing regional Mexican music, and everybody knows the words.

• 45:43Shawn Ryan?

  Wow.

• 45:45Speaker 03

  And they're even dressing with that sort of cartel guy swagger, the style, yeah.

• 45:55Shawn Ryan?

  That's interesting.

• 45:56Speaker 03

  It was, it shocked me to see it. I wasn't expecting that. I actually didn't know, had no idea it would be like that.

• 46:03Shawn Ryan?

  So what are the, what are the, what are the lines of business? I mean, so far.

• 46:07Speaker 03

  Everything.

• 46:07Shawn Ryan?

  I mean, it, it, that's, it does, it seems like everything. I mean, obviously, fentanyl, cocaine, drugs, probably marijuana. We know that stuff. I don't even know, is that, is that stuff still the primary focus? Because it was either you or Luis, last time I talked to you guys. They were taking over the water supplies. They were taking over the avocado farms. Then there's human trafficking.

• 46:31Speaker 03

  Fruit oil theft.

• 46:33Shawn Ryan?

  Fruit oil, which I would have, I would imagine. I mean, so what, is there any, and the whole point of this was to, was to appear legit, correct?

• 46:42Speaker 03

  Of course, it's to appear legit and to diversify the.

• 46:46Shawn Ryan?

  Portfolio.

• 46:47Speaker 03

  Yeah, the revenue.

• 46:49Shawn Ryan?

  Are there any new sources of revenue? Is the entire water supply under?

• 46:56Speaker 03

  I think we talked about this last time, that they were also monopolizing, like wifi, providing wifi internet services in smaller towns, for the most part. They're not doing this in like major cities. But yeah, smaller towns, they'll go in, they'll cut the wifi wires. In small towns in Mexico too, it's, it's not like wireless. And so they're going, cutting it up, putting up their own, and then going door to door and being like, now you're gonna pay me and I'm gonna provide you the wifi. Crude oil, we spoke about, that's, that's a big one. And here's the thing, because sometimes I see people say, well, you know, we have to end the demand for drugs in order to end the cartels. That's a complete fallacy because it doesn't matter whether drugs exist or not,

• 47:41Speaker 03

  if they are profiting off of almost every good or service that they can take to the black market and make it profitable. Because crude oil is not a black market good, right? It's what makes the world go round. But when these guys are tapping into state-run pipelines in Mexico, stealing the crude oil and then driving it across the US and selling it to, you know, mom, pop refineries for half the price, then if they were to purchase, purchase it legally, that becomes a black market good.

• 48:19Speaker 03

  The avocados, same thing. And you know, that's been going on for ages. That's also because of the region in which avocados grow in Mexico, in Michoacan. It's a major cartel hotspot. And actually, just a few months ago, the US like momentarily stopped the avocado import exports from, from Michoacan because of how extreme the cartel violence had gotten and how many, how so many of the local farmers and, and agriculture producers were under extreme threats of their lives and of their livelihoods. And it's really sad. And I'm not sure if I said last time, but you know, avocados is not, it's not an easy thing to grow. It can take like 30 years to grow an has avocado tree.

• 49:03Speaker 03

  You know, this is people's lives. It's a generational trade. And then you have guys coming in armored, in armed vehicles, saying, I'm gonna fucking kill you, or you're gonna pay me a quota, which is typically 80% of how much these farmers are earning. How do you even survive? How do you support your family? How do you support your crop if 80% of your revenue is going to, to extortion fees? Or if you can't pay that, this is no longer your land. We own it and we run it. So people are fleeing, leaving their generationally owned avocado orchards, or they're being murdered. Or they're paying an extortion fee to the point where they lose their livelihoods entirely. So yes, every single

• 49:49Speaker 03

  method has been, has been taken over by them. And of course, in order for that to happen, it goes back into what you were saying earlier, that directly ties back to the ignorant politicians who allow it to happen and who are profiting off of it. Because that's one thing that I really believe that there could be a crackdown on and say, listen, you guys are wanna traffic your drugs and your arms? Leave the farmers alone, you know, leave the, the pipe, the oil lines alone. That stuff stays legal, but they don't do that. I mean, great example of this, of just how high it goes.

• 50:34Speaker 03

  Miss Universe, she's, Mexico was Miss Universe, right? Her father is a high executive in Pemex because Mexico's oil is state-run, Pemex. And he's been accused, I don't whether, know whether or not it's formal, if it actually was taken to court, of a $700 million contract with the, one of the, the main execs of the Miss Universe competition. Because he's also very involved in Mexican politics.

• 51:12Speaker 03

  They had a 700 million peso contract, which just so happened during, to, to come to fruition during the Miss Universe contract. And this individual

• 51:24Speaker 03

  is actually in Mexico now, in Mexico's federal witness protection program, because he was accused of trafficking crude oil, stealing it, trafficking it, and arms. And so we're, now we're talking about organizations that go so beyond, even bypass Mexico. And Miss Universe has me blocked on Instagram.

• 51:49Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 51:50Shawn Ryan?

  Wow. But I just, I don't.

• 51:53Speaker 03

  How do you dismantle that?

• 51:55Shawn Ryan?

  I don't, it's kind of what I was getting at. I mean, it almost seems like there's no hope for them.

• 51:59Speaker 03

  It goes so far.

• 52:00Shawn Ryan?

  Even as a politician, I mean, what, you're, you're saying well over 50% of the people, the population down there? You said less than 75%, but more than 50%? I mean, that's.

• 52:10Speaker 03

  Because I don't wanna be inaccurate, but.

• 52:11Shawn Ryan?

  It's a big gap, though, is what I'm saying. And that's a lot of people, a lot of people.

• 52:18Shawn Ryan?

  Why did the US turn the flow of avocados back?

• 52:22Speaker 03

  Because they turned it back on.

• 52:24Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah, why did they turn it back on?

• 52:25Speaker 03

  There actually wasn't a reason for it, but I guess I would assume that, you know, violence decreased. Doubt it, but I mean, if I were to send a press inquiry, that's probably the answer I would get.

• 52:40Shawn Ryan?

  What other kind of international trade are they involved in other than avocados, obviously oil? What other countries are partaking?

• 52:49Speaker 03

  What other countries are partaking?

• 52:51Shawn Ryan?

  These are legitimate businesses that I don't know how many people realize or know, you know, what's run by the cartel over there. I don't know if they know, you know, the water supply, the avocado trade. Everybody thinks cartels, they think drugs.

• 53:04Speaker 03

  Drugs, humans.

• 53:05Shawn Ryan?

  Drugs and human trafficking.

• 53:06Speaker 03

  Yeah. And you know, the focus lately, especially during this administration, it's been so heavily placed on fentanyl. And if we look at official numbers from both the US and Mexico, it seems like, you know, fentanyl seizures at the border have gone down. I have a hard time trusting those numbers because how can you quantify seizures? Like, how do you know what is getting through? Like, you can know what isn't, but, you know what I mean? But cocaine is getting through at unprecedented numbers. Because the focus was so heavy on fentanyl that cocaine was kind of left in this area of, okay, let's just keep pushing it.

• 53:45Shawn Ryan?

  On different levers.

• 53:46Speaker 03

  Yes. And the United States is certainly losing the war on cocaine by a landslide. So, yeah, it's...

• 53:56Shawn Ryan?

  Let's take a break. I've always liked gear that's simple, durable, and built to actually be used. Not gear that's trying too hard. Not gear that only looks good in a photo. Stuff that works, holds up, and still has some character. That's what Tacovas does well. I got their Earl boot, and it's exactly that. Clean, classic, not overdone. I've worn them out to dinner, I've worn them doing work around the property, and I've packed them for the road. They're comfortable, they're versatile, and they just work. Tacovas crafts quality Western boots for everyone. From generational ranchers and lifelong cowboys to first-time boot buyers.

• 54:38Shawn Ryan?

  Their boots are handcrafted in over 200 meticulous steps, using premium leather and classic Western design. And the comfort is right there out of the box. I've tried enough gear to know when something is actually built to be worn, not just looked at. These are comfortable, they're durable, and they feel like the kind of boots I'm going to keep reaching for. And because Tacovas care about those who serve, military members and veterans get 10% off every day. Right now, get 10% off at tecovas.com/srs when you sign up for email and texts. That's 10% off at T-E-C-O-V-A-S dot com slash SRS. Tacovas dot com slash SRS.

• 55:22Shawn Ryan?

  See the site for details. Tacovas, point your toes west. Do you ever wonder what it takes to make an episode of The Sean Ryan Show? In this exclusive studio tour, I'm taking you behind the scenes for an in-depth look at every part of the operation, from the editing room in the main studio to the spaces where we film Range Day, content, and more. You'll see how the show comes together, meet some of the people behind it, and get a closer look at the work that happens off-camera. When you become a paid member of the SRS Patreon community, you get more than just the podcast. Watch new episodes early alongside other members, join monthly live shows with guest Q&As,

• 56:05Shawn Ryan?

  and submit questions, just like you see on the show, for upcoming guests on the Protector tier. You'll also unlock exclusive Range Day videos, behind-the-scenes content, and premium ambience videos that you're not gonna find anywhere else. Join the Patreon community today and get access to the full experience. All right, Caterina, we're kind of talking about international trade and legitimate businesses and how they've bled into Central South America. How have they bled into the US?

• 56:49Shawn Ryan?

  Have they bled into the US?

• 56:51Speaker 03

  Of course. Yeah. Without the US, I don't think cartels would be successful, to be honest. Whether that's, of course, through the obvious, like drug consumption, but also, they are the ones purchasing stolen crude oil, the avocados, you know? I think all three of us, Ed, Luis, and I have all said it, that like, the Super Bowl is like, a great day if you're a cartel operative who profits off of stolen avocados. Which, a lot of this is directly linking, of course, to the US. And there are certainly significant cartel operatives residing in the US.

• 57:36Speaker 03

  One important thing to mention, the new leader of CGNG, Cero Tres, and Mencho Stepsun, is an American citizen. He was born in Santa Ana, California. And this is really the first time where a major kingpin is an American citizen. It's supposed to make that harder for US authorities who are, you know, applying the kingpin strategy left, right, and center when it comes to Mexican cartels, just because of intelligence gathering, right? Technically, the CIA can't do that, but he's also running a foreign terrorist organization, so it's gray no matter how you look at it.

• 58:15Speaker 03

  But, another, you know, I know we say the humans, the human trafficking, the sex trafficking, is a major operation particularly too for CGNG. CGNG doesn't really touch fentanyl the way the Sinaloa cartel does. Because fentanyl production was created by, allegedly, Ivan Archibaldo, El Chapo's son. He was the one that got in touch with the Chinese cooks, figured out that this synthetic, easy-to-make drug, very highly addictive, potent drug, would be very profitable for them. CGNG, however, focuses more on meth, cocaine, human trafficking.

• 58:59Speaker 03

  And I never really wanted to cover human trafficking or sex trafficking for the very selfish reason of, it's very hard to talk about, hear about, it's very tragic. And a lot of the work is tragic, but this is something where you feel like you cannot make anything better, and you're talking to victim after victim who has been brutalized by sex trafficking. You want to die. And so, this summer, I did a whole story on how human sex trafficking in Mexico directly

• 59:41Speaker 03

  links to the United States, and how a lot of the major individuals responsible for trafficking women from Central and Southern Mexico, and even further down in South America, are these men in control, or family networks, I guess, are actually operating from the United States. And they're going into these small towns, and they're luring and recruiting women, and bringing them to border towns, and some of them, bringing them into the United States, where they're working at clandestine bars as sex workers. And they were misled to be there.

• 1:00:21Speaker 03

  They didn't know that they were going to have to provide sexual services against their will. And most of the clientele, at least from the women that I spoke to who got out of it or are still in it, unfortunately, especially along borders, and obviously in the United States, they say that most of their clientele are Americans. And so, when I did this story, I was like, in Tijuana, and I'm like, you know, I'm sure a lot of you recognize where I'm at. I had all the famous strip clubs behind me, Hong Kong.

• 1:01:04Speaker 03

  And I'm like, you know, some of you probably come here to have fun and for cheap sex. But let's talk to the women who are actually providing these services, who didn't know or ever imagined that they would end up here. And it's a very sophisticated network. These women are in, are from small towns, most of them. They're very young. And typically, a lot of them come from pretty conservative families, very religious, like not a lot of exposure. And not saying that's a bad thing, but you know what I mean? It's just a smaller world.

• 1:01:41Speaker 03

  And a man who splits his time between Mexico and the United States comes to this small town and falls in love with the 17-year-old girl. You know, he's older, but she's never had a guy pay attention to her in this way. And she will fall in love, it's the Romeo method, he wins her over, even wins the family over a lot of the time. And will either sleep with her, like, take her virginity, or maintain it, and say, we're gonna have sex after we get married. And then...

• 1:02:21Speaker 03

  He will tell her, you know what? For work, we have to go to this border town. Let's use TJ's common one. Let's go to Tijuana. For work, you know, we're gonna move there just for a little bit. You're gonna do great, blah, blah. And this young woman, okay. This is what I have to do for my family, my man. I've never, you know, been in a relationship, whatever. They move to Tijuana. And as soon as she gets there, she's thrown into a house where multiple other women are living with this man. And she's told that she has to go and make X amount of money every night, AKA, sleep with as many, many, many men as possible until you make this quota.

• 1:03:03Speaker 03

  And if you don't, he will beat you up very severely. And with, they withhold everything from these women. Their phones, their IDs, everything is taken away from them. And they will even go through the legal route through Tijuana sanitary department. There's an official name for it, where you legally register as a prostitute. They will do that for these women. So sometimes they'll wait until these women turn 18 so they can legally register them. Some of them will even legally marry them. So these women essentially become like their property. And one of the women I spoke to, who's from a small town in central Mexico where a lot of women get trafficked

• 1:03:47Speaker 03

  and a lot of traffickers actually originate from. She told me as soon as she got to Tijuana with her husband, he took her phone, her IDs, registered her. She didn't want to work. He beat her up so badly, she went to the hospital, was very scared and started working. And for 10 years, gave sexual services to up to 30 men a night.

• 1:04:12Shawn Ryan?

  Sheesh.

• 1:04:14Speaker 03

  Yeah, worst thing you've ever heard, right? And and then she tried to go to the authorities, her with some other girls. And they said, okay, first of all, I'm, I'm giving an idea of what she told me. She said, first of all, they told her, well, you're married to him. So that's, that's a spousal dispute. That's, that's on you guys. Like whatever he's making you do or whatever's going on there, like you guys are just in a fight. And also, you know, no one is forcing you by your hair to go work the corner. You choose to go out and work there and give the sexual services.

• 1:04:59Speaker 03

  So they didn't do anything. And it was very hard for her to escape.

• 1:05:03Shawn Ryan?

  How did she escape?

• 1:05:04Speaker 03

  She got pregnant with him. And, you know, I asked her, I said, were you worried? Because his whole family, this trafficker and the man she considers to be her husband, the whole family does human trafficking. This is very common in Mexico where it's family networks who have generationally done human trafficking. And then they are giving money or kind of operating in tangent with like the cartel, but they are not themselves the cartel. And she got pregnant and she was like, you know, she had already lost a pregnancy before. And she said, I had to leave.

• 1:05:48Speaker 03

  And she goes, I just grabbed all my shit. And I got back home and I had like no money to do it. And she escaped to her family. And I asked her, you know, were you afraid? And she still has a relationship with her trafficker, who she considers her husband, because he's the father of her child. And she told me that she feels like no man will ever love her, knowing what she has done in her life. So this is the only man who has, in a way, as evil as he was, and she said this, as evil as he was, is still with her.

• 1:06:27Shawn Ryan?

  Sheesh.

• 1:06:28Speaker 03

  And when she told me that she got pregnant, which was what she used, I guess, as leverage to leave. I said, I was like, you know, were you worried that it would be a girl? Because it's actually quite common, unfortunately, where traffickers will impregnate the girls. And then if it's a daughter, then they'll bring them up, whatever. And then that girl gets trafficked. And in our interview, she starts bawling when I asked her this. And then I start crying. And she was like, my biggest fear was to have a girl. I prayed every night that God would not send me a daughter.

• 1:07:10Speaker 03

  Because life as a woman is horrible. And the life that she lived was tragic. And she told me, most of the clients she was serving were American citizens, Americans who were coming to Tijuana for sex tourism. And she was abused a lot, of, of course, you know, it comes with the territory. But yeah, that was the worst thing ever. And, and she did tell me of a lot of girls she knew that were trafficked, who were in Tijuana with her at some point. And then if they were like successful,

• 1:07:54Speaker 03

  AKA, making a lot of money or, you know, very attractive, considering the atmosphere, they would be taken to major cities in the United States to provide services. San Diego, Houston, LA, New York is also a big one.

• 1:08:10Shawn Ryan?

  Shit.

• 1:08:13Speaker 03

  And actually, in this town that I went to, I went to Tlaxcala. It's a state outside of Mexico City. It's, it's actually kind of, there's a running joke on the state that it's the forgotten state because it's the smallest. And a lot of people haven't even heard of it. Even Mexican nationals, there's, when I'm like, I went to Tlaxcala, they're like, what the fuck is that? There's a direct link between Tlaxcala as a human trafficking hub to major American cities. A major human trafficking network was actually taken down by authorities, American authorities in New York, I want to say three years ago. And they were directly working with traffickers and getting girls from Tlaxcala,

• 1:08:56Speaker 03

  the forgotten state of Mexico.

• 1:09:04Shawn Ryan?

  Man.

• 1:09:05Speaker 03

  It was the worst story I've ever done. And when I did this story, I wanted to obviously speak with the governor of Tlaxcala. You know, your state is known as a human sex trafficking hub? That's not ideal. How are you combating this? And I had seen that she had, that what I had seen is three times she had publicly denied that there was a human trafficking problem in Tlaxcala. She said that it was being misrepresented and overblown. So I'm trying to set up an interview with her. And at first, her office seems very keen. Yeah, she wants to give her side of the story. And that's kind of also how I played it, right? I want to know what, what's really happening from you. You're the one in charge.

• 1:09:50Speaker 03

  Tell me the truth. You know, I know what the truth is. I'm fucking seeing it. I'm talking to the people who are being terrorized by the, the reality of the situation. But let's hear from the individual who's supposed to maintain the integrity and the safety and wellbeing of the state and its citizens, who's obviously not doing that. And let's see what she has to say. So I'm speaking with the office of the governor to set this up. And a representative from her office, who I guess runs all the, the media situations, says to me, yeah, okay, gobernadora will talk to you. I'm gonna be, you're gonna be here on these dates. You can come to the palace, blah, blah, blah. How much? And I'm like, how much?

• 1:10:35Speaker 03

  I have to pay to do the interview? I don't do that. And she goes, no, no, no. How much do you need for a good interview? And I, I'm listening to this, I'm thinking, am I stupid? Like, am I not understand, do I not speak Spanish right now? And I'm like, you're gonna pay me to interview the governor? And she's like, yes, how much? I said, I'm sorry, I, I'm not understanding. So you're gonna give me money if I interview the governor? And she goes, yeah, yeah. And if you can send us, you know, the, the cut before you publish it, we just like to look at for. I'm like, that's not journalism, man.

• 1:11:20Speaker 03

  I don't do that. You know, I should have asked how much she would be willing. That was, I was just so shocked in the moment that that had happened. It was the first time that I had been offered money by a government, government official to do a story so that it would feed their narrative. And I was shocked. Governor didn't end up doing the interview with me. They gave me

• 1:11:42Shawn Ryan?

  No kidding.

• 1:11:43Speaker 03

  A secretary of, of women, which is a position in Mexico for women's wellbeing and stuff, tasked with women's safety. Governor didn't do it.

• 1:11:52Shawn Ryan?

  Jeez.

• 1:11:54Speaker 03

  So you're offering me money to interview you because you want me and my report to put that there isn't a human trafficking problem? Right after I just spoke with a woman who told me that she was trafficked and lured from this state, asked for help, never received it, was terrorized for a decade of her life and is back here and has no resources to access to even maybe make something better of her life that was destroyed? Get wrecked. And when you talk about the American connection, I understand that there's this perception that, well, you know,

• 1:12:38Speaker 03

  cartels are Mexico's problem. At least that was the perception for a long time. And I think we even spoke about this last time where, well, that's not our problem. I mean, you guys, I'm not American, but that's, that's not a US problem. That's a Mexico problem. And there was, has always been this kind of distinction between, so US is combating fentanyl and cartels. Why? Because fentanyl is killing Americans at record rates. But then there's this other side of it that has a lot more nuance, where now this Mexico problem is a problem because of Americans. And now it's becoming an American problem. And I think human trafficking is a prime example of that.

• 1:13:22Speaker 03

  Because these girls are being trafficked into the US. And then these guys aren't getting caught. Who's to say that they're not also trafficking, trafficking American women simultaneously? Of course they are. It's a massive network. And if it spans borders, they have no limit.

• 1:13:43Shawn Ryan?

  You know, Trump, did he announce, did he announce all cartels, foreign terrorist organizations?

• 1:13:48Speaker 03

  I think so, yeah. I, not, so originally, it wasn't all of them, it was a list of, I think, eight, some were missing, but they've since expanded that list. So, I'm not sure if all of them are designated yet, but for the most part, all bases are covered now.

• 1:14:05Shawn Ryan?

  So, has the US done anything? Have they actually treated them like terrorist organizations? Have there been any arrests, hits, drone strikes? Any, uh, are we, do we have intelligence services down there? I mean, what, a lot of questions I just hammered you with. Let's start with, let's start with this. How has that affected the cartel's mindset and operations, if at all? By them being labeled a terrorist organization?

• 1:14:34Speaker 03

  I truly do not believe that the FTO designation actually impacted cartel operations. Um, they adapt like cockroaches, really. It, it, no, you know, US will sanction someone, um, shut down this bank account, arrest this person, it doesn't matter because they've already pivoted five different ways. Um, in terms of arrests, people are, especially people on the US side of the border, who have links or are operating or profiting off of the cartels are being arrested and charged as foreign terrorists, which is different. Uh, so if they're like colluding with the cartel, now you, you were operating, aiding with a foreign terrorist organization.

• 1:15:20Speaker 03

  In terms of intelligence, we know the US has been and is continuously gathering intelligence on the ground in Mexico.

• 1:15:31Speaker 03

  Hmm, when the FTO designation was first announced, everyone was asking, that was the hot topic, right? Will there be American boots on the ground in Mexico?

• 1:15:41Speaker 03

  In an intelligence capacity, yes, of course, and there has been for a very long time. And we saw not so long ago that, um, two CIA agents were actually killed. They died in a car crash in Chihuahua, dressed in Mexican police uniforms. Because they went to dismantle a meth lab. So, yeah, we know, intelligence is being gathered there. I mean, Ryan Wedding, El Mencho, those people are not being taken out simply due to Mexican intelligence. I mean, US is openly taking credit for it, for the intelligence gathering to find the location of El Mencho.

• 1:16:20Speaker 03

  But when we're talking about drone strikes, boots on the ground, in terms of, um, typical warfare, I don't think that will ever happen. I hope it doesn't. I've never wanted that to be the case, because I think it would result in a lot more bloodshed and uncertainty and, and disorganization than good, because the cartels will fight.

• 1:16:47Shawn Ryan?

  I mean, do they, since that's, how long ago did that happen? Has it been about a year?

• 1:16:52Speaker 03

  The FTO designation?

• 1:16:53Shawn Ryan?

  Yes.

• 1:16:54Speaker 03

  Two years?

• 1:16:55Shawn Ryan?

  Two years?

• 1:16:55Speaker 03

  Well, it was, yeah, it was, uh, am I right?

• 1:17:00Shawn Ryan?

  I think it's about a year.

• 1:17:01Speaker 03

  No, when did, when was Trump, when did Trump take office? January?

• 1:17:06Shawn Ryan?

  Twenty twenty...

• 1:17:08Speaker 03

  Four. That was, then it was two years. Yeah, that was, he, he signed that executive...

• 1:17:14Shawn Ryan?

  He was twenty-four, took office twenty-five.

• 1:17:18Speaker 03

  Oh, so it was a year. I have no concept of time these days, sorry. It's so bad. It's so bad.

• 1:17:24Shawn Ryan?

  But, so, I mean, since you've been down there in the past year and a half, is, I mean, is there any chatter about, when you're talking to these guys, they don't give a shit?

• 1:17:34Speaker 03

  They do not give a shit.

• 1:17:34Shawn Ryan?

  Do they wear it as a badge of honor? Do they, or are they...

• 1:17:37Speaker 03

  They don't, it, indifference.

• 1:17:38Shawn Ryan?

  They don't, they don't care.

• 1:17:39Speaker 03

  Indifference.

• 1:17:39Shawn Ryan?

  It's like it's never even happened.

• 1:17:40Speaker 03

  Yes. It, it makes no difference.

• 1:17:43Shawn Ryan?

  Wow, that's, I wasn't expecting that. According to polymarket.com, there's an 11% chance of conducting a drone missile or airstrike inside Mexico before the end of this year. How likely do you think it is that the United States eventually carries out a drone missile or airstrike against a cartel target inside of Mexico?

• 1:18:07Speaker 03

  I'm not an, I'm not a financial advisor, but do not bet on that, because it's not gonna happen. It's not gonna happen.

• 1:18:13Shawn Ryan?

  You don't think so, huh?

• 1:18:16Speaker 03

  I, I'm actually very certain it won't. Um, and the reason for that is, they don't need to do that. Um, their current tactic of splintering the cartels and having them kill each other off is a lot more effective and cheaper than doing all of that shit.

• 1:18:35Shawn Ryan?

  I don't know, it doesn't sound very effective to me, when we're talking about fifty percent...

• 1:18:39Speaker 03

  They're essentially dismantling the Sinaloa cartel.

• 1:18:41Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah, but another one's just taken over.

• 1:18:43Speaker 03

  Yeah, but that will always happen, the drone strike will do the same thing.

• 1:18:49Speaker 03

  And, it will turn people against eradicating the cartels. People who, who have, who do not want the cartels, because now you've caused war in their country, in their home. There was a video that just came out of a group of, of women in, oh, it's a southern state in Mexico, and they're being terrorized by the local cartel, local criminal groups. And they're saying in the video, there's, uh, older Mexican women, "President Trump, please help us, please get rid of the cartels."

• 1:19:22Shawn Ryan?

  Uh huh.

• 1:19:24Speaker 03

  They're asking a foreign president to help them with their domestic problem. I don't think, though, drone strikes would, and, and full-blown war would actually

• 1:19:38Speaker 03

  end up in that scenario by any means. And I think that what they're doing now is, so here's the thing. I don't personally believe it's effective, the whole kingpin strategy whatsoever, right? It's a Hydra, you cut off the head, two more grow back. They killed El Mencho, which was supposed to be like, holy, you know, the ultimate kingpin, boom, like, nothing happened. Twenty-four hours later, business as usual.

• 1:20:09Speaker 03

  But, what they're doing with Sinaloa cartel, for example, of turning everyone against each other, and then making deals with the very terrorists they're against, right? Striking a deal with all of El Chapo's kids, the family, oh, plea deal here, you can live in the US, visa here.

• 1:20:35Speaker 03

  I think that sends more of a message to the cartels than a drone strike. I do think, though, and there has certainly been chatter, that a lot of these guys feel like if they end up in US custody, if they have good information that the US wants, they'll get a, they'll get an easy break.

• 1:21:00Speaker 03

  Which is...

• 1:21:01Shawn Ryan?

  It may not be a bad method.

• 1:21:02Speaker 03

  And it's true, like, we're seeing it happen.

• 1:21:04Shawn Ryan?

  For them, I mean.

• 1:21:05Speaker 03

  Yeah, of course. And I, I'm, I'm under the impression that, that is exactly the reason why Mexican forces killed El Mencho and didn't capture him alive. You know, they say that there was this massive shootout, I'm sure there was, and that El Mencho died in transit to Mexico City.

• 1:21:32Speaker 03

  But, I think of anyone, El Mencho had so much information, particularly on high-ranking politicians that the US is very interested in. And that would have been very bad.

• 1:21:46Shawn Ryan?

  Well, that doesn't surprise me. And by the way, I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you on the drone strikes...

• 1:21:52Speaker 03

  No, but you can.

• 1:21:53Shawn Ryan?

  ... and missile strikes. I, I actually, if I did this, I'll roll the clip right now. I, I, I think that the way to do it would be, and I don't know, I just, like I said, it's been a minute since I've talked about this, but I don't know how, um, how combative the cartels are towards each other anymore, but I think what I would do is I would probably create some type of a psychological operation, um, that pits the cartels against each other. And, and basically create a false narrative so that this cartel and this cartel hate each other, and they go to war with each other, and then find ways to intervene, and, you know what I mean?

• 1:22:36Shawn Ryan?

  I'm pretty sure I brought up this exact method of turning the cartels against each other from the inside, talking to Luis Caparo many years ago.

• 1:22:43Speaker 03

  I think you actually also probably brought it up to me.

• 1:22:45Shawn Ryan?

  But, you know, here's some things that we're not thinking about with the drone strikes, you know? And, and I don't know how they're set up, so this is all hypothetical, but drone strikes, precision strikes, what, however we do it, go in there with, with US force, which I don't necessarily think we should be doing with as many wars as we're involved in right now.

• 1:23:07Speaker 03

  Yeah, I don't think so.

• 1:23:08Shawn Ryan?

  But, you know, they do have to have supplies. You know what I mean? So, whether that's drugs, uh, the supplies, the precursors that are coming from China, I mean, I don't know how much of the infrastructure is funded by drugs still, but if you were to take care of those supplies, that's a big hit of funding. I know that they export a shit-ton of firearms, weapons and stuff from the US. I don't know what they're doing with those. I don't know if they have caches, but if they do have big caches...

• 1:23:47Shawn Ryan?

  They could hit it with a drone strike. You know what I mean? And, and, and, and handicap their, you know, their supplies. I know that they, which we're getting ready to get into here after this, but FPV drones. It's becoming a big thing, right? Right?

• 1:24:01Speaker 03

  Oh, they have a shit ton of drones.

• 1:24:03Shawn Ryan?

  You know what I mean? So somebody's manufacturing those drones and they're likely in some type of a, um, facility manufacturing these drones. They can hit those. You know what I mean? And so if there's high concentrations of cartel, I'm not just talking about, you know what I mean, hitting El Chapo or, uh, any of these other leaders. I mean, you have-

• 1:24:25Speaker 03

  It's about the supply.

• 1:24:26Shawn Ryan?

  You hit the infrastructure.

• 1:24:27Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:24:28Shawn Ryan?

  And you hit the infrastructure all at once and it cripples them. On top of that, you also can play into the, you know, who got this info to them? You know what I mean? You could still turn them into, turn them against each other from the inside and, and, you know, play the, play the, the, the exterior rivalry. You know what I mean? Between cartel and cartel and just make it mass hysteria down there for them. And so I don't, I don't, I don't know if I would write it off completely. I do see what you're saying. I mean, generally when bombs start going off people's backyards, they don't like it, but it's already happening all the time anyway down there. And it is affecting more than just the US.

• 1:25:10Shawn Ryan?

  I mean, I don't know what the impact in Canada is, but it sounds, you know, they're going, they're bleeding into Europe and, and so at some point, something's gonna have to give here, uh, or else they're just gonna run the entire world. But what do you think of that?

• 1:25:27Speaker 03

  I think it's, it's a good strategy. I mean, this is not my job to create strategies on how to end cartels.

• 1:25:34Shawn Ryan?

  You don't think about that ever?

• 1:25:35Speaker 03

  I do, of course, but I don't think I'm the expert to even pitch how to do it, to be honest. It's also not, it's not my responsibility. Um, but I, I think that that could be effective because their weaponry, especially like you said, the drones, the guns, um, that's what they need. They need that muscle and, but I think they could do it without drone strikes almost. Maybe I'm being naive. I'm sure some people will think so, but 70% of the guns in Mexico, well, at least found at crime scenes are coming from the United States, are American made. And so ideally, right?

• 1:26:19Speaker 03

  It would be best if that, that stopped before they even get into the hands of the criminals. But just a few days ago, um, a massive shipment of DJI drones in Mexico was stolen. No, they don't know who stole it. You know, it could be cartel, it could be someone who's gonna sell it. But I know that the, the majority of weapons in Mexico are, are coming from, um, the US and Israel. And that goes beyond regular weaponry, right? Even spyware. I think we talked about Pegasus last time. Mexico's the, the number one country of Pegasus. They were the first country to actually do a contract with, with Pegasus. And that's-

• 1:27:01Shawn Ryan?

  True story.

• 1:27:02Speaker 03

  Because actually the, a previous president, Peña Nieto, allegedly accepted a $25 million bribe from two executives at, uh, NSO, the, the company that started Pegasus spyware out of Israel. And he implemented Pegasus as part of their, uh, national security apparatus. It was the first country to do it. Uh, they were the first one to, you know, have that contract. And then an Israeli news outlet said that these two individuals, two execs for Pegasus,

• 1:27:44Speaker 03

  bribed the Mexican president at the time with, with $25 million to implement Pegasus into their, uh, national security apparatus. And Peña Nieto denied this. A person who's never on social media, following his presidency, goes onto Twitter and is like, this is terrible. There's no journalistic rigor in this reporting. This is completely wrong, false. I would never do this. And then, um, a few days ago, a video comes to like, you see him at a wedding with the very individual, uh, last name Nedia, I think, who gave him the $25 million bribe.

• 1:28:28Shawn Ryan?

  Wow.

• 1:28:29Speaker 03

  Who was accused of, yeah. And, and in Israel, there was like this tribunal held. It wasn't like official court, but it's like fa- five rabbis. It's kind of like arbitrary kind of court hearing, um, with the two NSO individuals because they were, you know, having a dispute over the company. And one of them says to Nedia, you know, you need to pay me back. I want out of this. You need to pay me back. So they're listing off everything that he can get money from. And he goes, and remember, we bribed that president with 25 million? Give me the 25 million. And Nedia, the, the individual who was spotted with Peña Nieto a few days ago, doesn't say, no, we never did that. No, there's no money there.

• 1:29:14Speaker 03

  He says, no, it was less than 25 million, what we gave him. And that's all documented. And Pegasus took over Mexico's state security. It became very problematic and very dangerous because sure, perhaps that was meant to be part of the, the infrastructure of, of the government. It got into the hands of cartels. They were using it to spy on journalists, on clean politicians, the few and far in between. Um, and people were certainly murdered because of the access to that, the widespread access. Sorry, that was a bit of a tangent there.

• 1:29:56Shawn Ryan?

  Well, well, man, what a problem. I mean, it's just-

• 1:30:05Speaker 03

  President is accepting a $25 million bribe for spyware tech? Crazy.

• 1:30:13Shawn Ryan?

  When something is part of your everyday kit, it has to work. I don't care if it's boots, bags, eyewear, training gear, or underwear. If you're wearing it all day, traveling in it, training in it, sitting in it, it better be built right. That's why I like Sheath. Sheath was built to solve a real problem. The dual pouch design keeps everything separated, supported, and in one place. So you're not constantly adjusting when you're moving, training, traveling, or sitting for long hours. And I respect how it started. Sheath was originally built by an active duty operator who needed underwear that could hold up during long, hot, miserable days. So this wasn't created in some boardroom.

• 1:30:58Shawn Ryan?

  It came from someone who actually needed it to work. They're soft, breathable, and built for real daily wear. Gym, travel, work, long days on set, whatever the day looks like. Feel it to believe it. Go to sheath.com/srs and use code SRS for 20% off. And Sheath offers a first pair guarantee. So if it's not for you, you get your money back. That's S H E A T H dot com slash SRS and use code SRS for 20% off. Sheath, the underwear of legends. Thanks to Sheath for sponsoring this episode.

• 1:31:40Shawn Ryan?

  Here's the pitch. It takes two minutes and you'll never think about it again. Download it, hit one button, close the app. That's the entire job. No manual, no settings, no tech background, nothing for you to get wrong. And then it just runs, blocking the trackers, the phishing sites, and the surveillance ads across every app on the device all day, quietly, without anybody having to do anything. It's first week out, it hit number six on Apple's top downloaded productivity chart. Built by former US intelligence professionals. I'm a co-founder. Glacier. Download it on the App Store.

• 1:32:25Shawn Ryan?

  And remember, privacy isn't paranoia, it's protection.

• 1:32:37Shawn Ryan?

  I mean, somebody would have to.

• 1:32:42Shawn Ryan?

  It's just, I don't even know. But you could boycott, you know what I mean? The, the, who's buying the oil?

• 1:32:50Speaker 03

  The stolen crude oil?

• 1:32:52Shawn Ryan?

  Who's buying the oil?

• 1:32:52Speaker 03

  American refineries.

• 1:32:54Shawn Ryan?

  American refineries?

• 1:32:55Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:32:57Speaker 03

  There was actually a case a year ago. It was, um, a family out of Utah, I believe. And they,

• 1:33:11Speaker 03

  they, they were indicted because they were buying stolen crude oil and smuggling it in through the port of Brownsville. And they, they ran a, um, I think Jensen family, something like that. They, they had a kind of family-run, smaller refinery, and they were knowingly purchasing the stolen crude oil because it was a lower price.

• 1:33:34Shawn Ryan?

  But you'd have to, you'd have to, I mean, you'd just have to totally

• 1:33:40Shawn Ryan?

  cripple their infrastructure, their, their money-making machine, which is boycott on avocados, penalize US companies that are, that are, you know, or just make it illegal, which that would probably take 20 years in the US.

• 1:33:53Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:33:53Shawn Ryan?

  Um, I mean, you'd have to

• 1:33:59Shawn Ryan?

  destroy all of their fentanyl, cocaine, whatever. You'd have to do all of that. You have to get rid of the weapons. I don't know exactly how you would take care of the human trafficking problem, but that would, you know, that would narrow it to one scope.

• 1:34:18Shawn Ryan?

  And then the other thing you would have to do is

• 1:34:24Shawn Ryan?

  handle their government, which the US is horrible at. But, you know, it would take, it would take some type of, some type of intervention, you know, fair election cycles, better protection for politicians. I mean, shit like that, for it to, for it to even have a chance, which I'm sure none of it is happening, so.

• 1:34:48Speaker 03

  The last election in Mexico was one of the most violent in history, where Claudia Schattenbaum won with a historic landslide.

• 1:34:58Shawn Ryan?

  And above all, it would take the people of Mexico to actually stand up.

• 1:35:02Speaker 03

  Yeah. There's a level of acceptance.

• 1:35:05Shawn Ryan?

  Then this, the whole thing is just...

• 1:35:07Speaker 03

  Yeah. I, you know, I, I've spoken to a lot of people, especially in Sinaloa, they're very tired of it, and they, they want it to end, and they'll take the stand. But also, you know, we have to appreciate that there's so much deep-rooted fear in standing up against that. It's completely understandable. It's like, how do you take on this big beast if even the government can't?

• 1:35:30Speaker 03

  It's a collective approach with...

• 1:35:32Shawn Ryan?

  Well, the government's part of the beast.

• 1:35:33Speaker 03

  Exactly, yeah.

• 1:35:37Shawn Ryan?

  Man. Rough time down there. Have you heard of, uh, El Salvador's infamous S E C O T prison? Do you think anything like that would work?

• 1:35:47Speaker 03

  So, there's actually a lot of Mexican people I've spoken to who are very anti-cartels that say they would love to see that in Mexico, that that's what it needs, that Mexico needs a bucle. Um, I think if, if they were to go after everyone, just like bucle did, and, and, you know, anyone who's has any morsel of connection to criminals or criminal activity, go straight to jail with no end in sight, you know, indefinitely. Yes, it could be effective, but like I said, the different, what Mexico would also have to do, that El Salvador kind of got under control, is they would have to compensate in the economy, right? Because like we said, it's, so much of it is run by the cartels.

• 1:36:32Speaker 03

  And that would be the part that disincentivizes them from just being like, "We're gonna go and do this widespread cleanup and throw everyone into this mega-prison like Seco."

• 1:36:45Speaker 03

  But I, I have heard that before. And I actually know a lot of people who are like very anti-cartel um, in Mexico, who say that they would like to see that happen. And they're like, "It's not best-case scenario, but it's gotten to that point."

• 1:37:03Shawn Ryan?

  I mean, that was one of the most violent places on the world.

• 1:37:05Speaker 03

  And now it's one of the safest?

• 1:37:08Shawn Ryan?

  You know?

• 1:37:08Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:37:12Speaker 03

  And I, there's obviously like a lot of human rights concerns that we've heard about, people are in there that they have nothing to do with it, and how people are being treated, and I mean, when you're talking about tackling this huge beast of crime and violent crime,

• 1:37:28Speaker 03

  that's, that's kind of part of the nature, wouldn't you agree?

• 1:37:32Shawn Ryan?

  Mm-hmm. It's unfortunate.

• 1:37:34Speaker 03

  It is, of course.

• 1:37:37Shawn Ryan?

  Well, let's move into Ukraine.

• 1:37:39Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 1:37:39Shawn Ryan?

  What's going on with the cartels in Ukraine?

• 1:37:43Speaker 03

  So, last summer, um, I saw that France and Mexico had sent an intelligence report to Ukraine, notifying them that there were foreign mercenaries, foreign fighters in Ukraine that were training up on FPV drone tactics, only to go to Mexico and work for the cartels as FPV drone operators. And so I was like, "Okay, this is very interesting. Let's dig into it." Come to find out, there was one individual, and he goes by Aguilar Sierte, Eagle Seven. He went to Ukraine with false documentation

• 1:38:25Speaker 03

  and went to a very well-known drone-training facility, where he raised some red flags because he was already very well-versed in FPV drone-flying.

• 1:38:37Speaker 03

  And I guess someone, the details aren't super clear, and even when I was digging for information on this, it was really hard. Also, keeping in mind, it's an active war zone, so, you know, they're trying to also protect the integrity of their infrastructure, security, et cetera, even image, to a degree. So, it seems like some of the, uh, trainers caught on that something may have been off, and that his intentions were odd and, and his capabilities. He was flagged, and then an investigation went on where they found out that he had direct links to criminal organizations in Latin America. And that's really all it says. But it seems as though

• 1:39:20Speaker 03

  he was directly connected to Mexican cartels and to FARC as well. So,

• 1:39:29Speaker 03

  after that, okay, looking into it, whatever, we go to Ukraine, my cameraman and I, and we go to these drone-training facilities where it's, it's quite simple. Uh, FPV, flying FPV drone is kind of like playing a video game, and actually, young people are pretty good at it because they're well-versed in playing video games. The only thing, obviously, that changes is that once you have like the bomb strapped to it, and the weight, and the understanding of dropping it, and accuracy, whatever. You also do not see the kill happen. The camera shuts off right at launch, so it also creates like this disconnect to modern, to typical warfare, I guess.

• 1:40:14Speaker 03

  We go to these training facilities, and I begin to like ask everyone, you know, "What about these foreign fighters that are coming here? Have you guys seen people that seem like they have, they're ill-intentioned? Or, you know, they're not here to fight the war, even for the money, to be a, a mercenary, but they're here because they want to learn something?"

• 1:40:36Speaker 03

  And there was mixed reactions. We went to a lot of different facilities, training facilities. Some people said, "Yeah, you know, you'll, some guy will come here from Colombia and will go on his TikTok, and he's showing him with like an AK-47 in like the hood in, in Colombia." We're like, "What is he doing here?" A lot of them are just like police officers or ex-military. And so they, they have this legitimate experience, and now they're applying it over there, whether it's for the paycheck, or because they, you know, they believe in Ukraine's autonomy, whatever it is, that at the end of the day, didn't even matter. I was curious to see how and why the cartels are getting people from here. So it seems like there's two things happening simultaneously.

• 1:41:21Speaker 03

  First, that at one point in time, a few individuals, small amount, were set, sent on purpose with false documentation. Some of them even through private military companies to Ukraine to get trained up on drones, serve their six months, and then go back to Mexico, and now they knew how to use drones, and they would become the trainers in Mexico. Another thing is happening. Um, a lot of Latin American foreign fighters in Ukraine, once their time serving is coming up to an end, um, they are being recruited by cartels in Mexico,

• 1:42:03Speaker 03

  offered money, and will go straight from Ukraine to Mexico, now to fight on the front lines with CJ and G, um,

• 1:42:16Speaker 03

  and particularly in Mitrockan, with, with cartels operating in Mitrockan. There's actually...

• 1:42:22Shawn Ryan?

  How are they recruiting?

• 1:42:23Speaker 03

  Through social media.

• 1:42:24Shawn Ryan?

  Through social media?

• 1:42:25Speaker 03

  Yeah. So a lot of these guys are posting on their TikTok and Instagram of them fighting the war there and being in Ukraine, and a lot of it, obviously, is in Spanish, because they're Latin American. And I guess there's some people within the cartels tasked with seeking these individuals out, offering them money and like this recruitment package to go to, to Mexico and fight there.

• 1:42:50Shawn Ryan?

  Any idea how much they're paying?

• 1:42:51Speaker 03

  I have no idea, but I don't think it's a lot because based on the profile of the individuals who are actually ending up there, uh, they're not coming from well-paying jobs in Colombia or well-paying positions in Ukraine, and they're ending up on frontlines in Mexico. So, the money can't be good. There's one individual, he's kind of everywhere, or at least, you know, I've, I've seen him a lot. He's Colombian, fought in Ukraine, now is on the frontlines in, in Mitrockan with the cartel. And he will wear, he wears the Colombian flag patch, Ukraine, and now Mexico. And he even like kind of, in a, a video that was circulating that I saw of him, he was bragging about it, like,

• 1:43:36Speaker 03

  "A Colombian, and I was in Ukraine, and now I'm with the cartel fuckers, yeah, in Mexico."

• 1:43:43Shawn Ryan?

  Shit. Any idea how many people they've recruited from the Ukraine?

• 1:43:47Speaker 03

  I have no idea. And I'm telling you, it's like, this has been the hardest thing to track down. It is so hard. It's I, it appears like either nobody's keeping track, or nobody wants to keep track. Or it's happening under the radar, which I don't think it is.

• 1:44:07Shawn Ryan?

  Do you have any idea how, how, how much? I'm just curious. I mean, there's a ton of US GWOT veterans that are

• 1:44:15Speaker 03

  I saw so many of them.

• 1:44:16Shawn Ryan?

  You know, that are, that are over there right now.

• 1:44:21Shawn Ryan?

  I think they've already caught US special ops guys down there helping out, training.

• 1:44:28Speaker 03

  I've seen a lot of it. Um.

• 1:44:32Speaker 03

  There were a lot of Americans there, especially at the training facilities that we went to. Not the drone training.

• 1:44:36Shawn Ryan?

  Wait, in Ukraine or in Mexico?

• 1:44:38Speaker 03

  In Ukraine. Sorry, what were you, were you asking me about Ukraine or Mexico?

• 1:44:41Shawn Ryan?

  Mexico. Coming from Ukraine to Mexico.

• 1:44:45Speaker 03

  So, American GWOT guys that were serving in Ukraine voluntarily and then went to Mexico?

• 1:44:51Shawn Ryan?

  No, just GWOT in general, before Ukraine. I'm, I'm saying there is a large pool of combat experience to draw from today.

• 1:45:01Shawn Ryan?

  To train cartels.

• 1:45:02Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:45:03Shawn Ryan?

  To fight with cartels.

• 1:45:07Shawn Ryan?

  And they have a lot of money.

• 1:45:10Speaker 03

  And experience. Yeah.

• 1:45:12Shawn Ryan?

  I mean, cartels have a lot of money.

• 1:45:14Speaker 03

  To pay for these guys?

• 1:45:15Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:45:16Speaker 03

  Yeah. Well, I've

• 1:45:21Speaker 03

  there have been some things that I have seen that it's

• 1:45:26Speaker 03

  it's very clear that there are some individuals from the US who are very highly trained that are, are offering some training services to cartel fighters.

• 1:45:40Shawn Ryan?

  You've seen this? Seen it?

• 1:45:42Speaker 03

  Not in person, but I've I've received information and

• 1:45:49Speaker 03

  I have to say this in a way where I don't make this risky for myself. Um. It's not this isn't like a common thing that's happening. Okay? It's not like this systemic issue. But it exists.

• 1:46:05Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah, that would be interesting for you. I mean, I know you're, uh, obviously involved with Iron Cloud. They've got

• 1:46:14Shawn Ryan?

  a lot of people within special operations.

• 1:46:19Shawn Ryan?

  It would be interesting if you could source somebody yourself or through them, maybe who isn't, who doesn't have a face on the internet.

• 1:46:27Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:46:27Shawn Ryan?

  To go down there with you and assess tactics. And see if they think that some of the tactics that these guys are using are coming from US special operations.

• 1:46:41Speaker 03

  I would like to do a story like that.

• 1:46:43Shawn Ryan?

  That would be interesting. You could get somebody in there with you that doesn't have a footprint on the internet.

• 1:46:48Speaker 03

  And they can clock exactly what tactics and, and methods are linked back here.

• 1:46:55Shawn Ryan?

  I mean, you could probably get to a training facility. I know Luis got to a training facility. He brought us footage of it.

• 1:47:00Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:47:01Shawn Ryan?

  You know, and, and, um, was a very good training. From what he showed me, it was horrible.

• 1:47:06Speaker 03

  It's very rudimentary.

• 1:47:07Shawn Ryan?

  But, you know, I'm sure there are different levels, you know, that these, that, that, that, that I'm sure there's different levels of operations going on within the cartel. At least I would think as sophisticated as they are in business, I'm sure militarily they have they have their elite all the way down to, you know, here's a gun, go shoot.

• 1:47:33Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:47:34Shawn Ryan?

  But if you could get a guy like that into one of these facilities to just observe, they would be able to tell you where this is coming from.

• 1:47:44Speaker 03

  The only problem with pursuing a story like that right now is just everything is very hot. It would be very dangerous.

• 1:47:51Shawn Ryan?

  Uh huh.

• 1:47:51Speaker 03

  Um. I, I wanted to go to some regions in Sinaloa when I was there to kind of see uh, who was running the show. Especially if it was like historically El Chapo's region. Okay. What's going on there now? And even some of my sources within the cartel were like, it will be dangerous for you. It's like, shit, okay, if you're saying that, it's a no go. Um, and a lot of these training facilities have become like killhouses. They're very violent now. Especially the ones run by CJ and G. Uh, there's a lot of fighting to the death, uh, sacrificial stuff. It's

• 1:48:28Shawn Ryan?

  Sacrificial?

• 1:48:29Speaker 03

  Yeah, like killing, killing, kill this guy in front of everyone else or beat, beat him up. Yeah. So it's, it's extreme violence and of course stuff that they, that's, that's type of stuff that they do not want publicized. It's bad PR for them. So when, when two years ago, um, the what's called the extermination ranch in Jalisco was found, Rancho Y Seguerra, like 60 kilometers outside of Guadalajara. That was said to have been a CJ and G recruitment camp and training camp. But it was also an extermination camp.

• 1:49:13Speaker 03

  A lot of people were taken there to die. A lot of people died there. Um, a lot of people were forced to fight to the death or just really heinous violent behavior. And it seems like that's the MO now, uh, for these cartel training and recruitment camps. There's a lot of extreme violence that goes on. So I would draw the line there for me personally.

• 1:49:39Speaker 00

  Now, more than ever, we need someone on our side. But Rob Whitman? Whitman's votes drove up costs, cut Medicaid and risked 350,000 Virginians healthcare to pay for tax breaks for himself and his donors. He's not on our side. Shannon Taylor will fight corruption, cut taxes and bring down costs. This November, vote for Shannon Taylor. She's for us. Paid for by HMP, the House Majority PAC dot com, not authorized by any candidate or candidate's committee.

• 1:50:10Speaker 01

  FX's American Horror Story returns for an unrivaled 13th installment. With the iconic horrors you love to fear and an all-star cast reprising fan favorite roles.

• 1:50:24Speaker 01

  Light your candles, draw your pentagrams and prepare for a supreme surprise. FX's American Horror Story 13. Now streaming on Hulu.

• 1:50:39Speaker 04

  Your credit card company is hoping you don't hear this. They're charging you 21% APR interest, making it hard to pay down your balance. A home equity loan from Rocket Mortgage could cut your interest rate by more than half. So you could wipe out your high interest credit card debt with the equity you've built in your home. Without touching your current mortgage rate. See how much you could save at rocketmortgage.com. Rocket Mortgage LLC, licensed in 50 states. NMLS Consumer Access dot org, number 3030. Call 8004ROCKET for full program details.

• 1:51:11Shawn Ryan?

  Are these all Latin American fighters that they're recruiting from Ukraine? Or they're recruiting from all over the world?

• 1:51:17Speaker 03

  It seems like so far, my knowledge, just Latin American.

• 1:51:21Shawn Ryan?

  Why do you think that is? Think it's price?

• 1:51:25Speaker 03

  For the cartels?

• 1:51:26Shawn Ryan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:51:26Speaker 03

  I think it's price and language.

• 1:51:29Shawn Ryan?

  Language.

• 1:51:30Speaker 03

  They can communicate with them and they don't have to pay them a ton.

• 1:51:34Shawn Ryan?

  If you, are you saying, uh, you know, I kind of mentioned this earlier, that you, like you're talking about DJI shipments and stuff. I would think that's, uh, a little bit, I mean, I'm actually surprised to hear that, that they're ordering drones from DJI. Those are expensive, even if they're stealing them. Um, I, I just, why are you hearing any of, are you hearing any? 3D printing is what that's the new jam.

• 1:52:01Speaker 03

  It is.

• 1:52:01Shawn Ryan?

  It's 3D printing factories, whether you're, you're in Ukraine, Haiti, Haiti, no, it's happening all over the place. It's just they, they, they take over a building, do whatever, and they make a 3D printing house and they just are shitting out drones by the, you know, every second. Are you, are they doing that down there?

• 1:52:21Speaker 03

  So from what I've seen, it's not common at all to 3D print like the drone itself, but they are 3D printing certain components for the drones that are dropping bombs, not the kamikaze drones, but like literally an FPV drone. They'll 3D print certain components to attach whatever to it or um, enhance it to whatever they need. I mean, I could even, I could give you some videos. I'm, I'm being sent videos left, right and center.

• 1:52:51Shawn Ryan?

  I would love to see some videos.

• 1:52:53Speaker 03

  Yeah. I have a ton of drone videos in my phone because, um, these guys are really proud of it. So they're, they're sending it around. I, I get drone videos as soon as the, the bombs are dropped from the drone, essentially. And you can see where they've like altered the drone and the expensive part of buying those, it's not a problem for them. Um, they're using these to target mostly law enforcement and adversarial groups. But particularly for law enforcement, because it keeps them, law enforcement away from their hub of operation.

• 1:53:31Speaker 03

  So, yeah, I, I have seen more drone videos than I'd like of, of people getting exploded, locations getting exploded, convoys of law enforcement getting exploded.

• 1:53:45Shawn Ryan?

  Is it, is it one drone? So here's what I'm getting at next.

• 1:53:50Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:53:50Shawn Ryan?

  You know, right? Like, like those are the, you know, in the, the, that's actually the old days now. You know, one improvised explosive on, on a kamikaze drone. Do you, do you hear anything about cartels investing into large language models? AI type software so that they can run entire drone swarms where it's not an individual operator per drone. They actually have some type of a, uh,

• 1:54:20Shawn Ryan?

  A large language model that's that that they can get fifty, a hundred, a thousand drones. I mean, if they did that, if they were able to accomplish that, they wouldn't need all the personnel.

• 1:54:31Speaker 03

  I have not seen that yet in Mexico. It could exist. I haven't seen it. They they could be keeping it low key, or it's just not happening. I think it could certainly get to that point. But so far, I don't think that that's necessary. I think with the status quo with what they have of these large FPV drones, that's good enough for them. But certainly, you're right. For the manpower, it would be great. But I think that the

• 1:54:59Speaker 03

  the groups that need the manpower the most, like we're talking about fractured cartels, for example, where they're like needing men. They don't actually have the capital to invest in something like that. That could make up for their their manpower. Because they're struggling to keep up with with how it is already.

• 1:55:18Shawn Ryan?

  Gotcha.

• 1:55:22Shawn Ryan?

  Man, we've covered a lot of ground there. Am I missing uh, am I missing anything with the Ukraine connection?

• 1:55:28Speaker 03

  No, that was that was mostly it. Yeah.

• 1:55:33Shawn Ryan?

  So we're wrapping up the interview. But what what do you think the future? And this could go for another hour. What do you think the future holds for cartels? What do you think they're gonna move into? What do you see coming in the future? If you had a crystal ball in front of you, what would it be telling you?

• 1:55:51Speaker 03

  Okay, there's a couple of major things that I think are going to happen. First, I think that

• 1:56:00Speaker 03

  the US government is really gonna do anything in it in their power to try to turn everyone against each other. Even if that means somehow starting lies that move through the ranks of cartels. So that they continue to take each other out, turn against each other, splinter, fracture, whatever you want to call it.

• 1:56:23Speaker 03

  I think that

• 1:56:26Speaker 03

  in spite of CGNG's leader being gone, we are only going to continue to see the rise of power and control that CGNG has over the entire cartel landscape, over all of Mexico and the global drug trade. They have so much money,

• 1:56:46Speaker 03

  power and vision. And

• 1:56:52Speaker 03

  they are probably like the foreign terrorist organization. And I I don't see that ending. I just, I think it's going to grow. And there are some actually very high IQ individuals, particularly in that Valencia family, that are going to ensure that operations continue to run and if not, expand.

• 1:57:16Speaker 03

  And finally, I think that the next Mexican president will

• 1:57:24Speaker 03

  I think it's probably gonna be Omar Garcia Harfuch, the Secretary of Security. And I think that he's going to

• 1:57:34Speaker 03

  work very closely with the Americans. It's gonna kind of be like we're flipping a page. It's gonna be different than with Claudia Chinbaum, who kind of pushes back.

• 1:57:46Speaker 03

  But I don't entirely see that as a positive thing, because I think that also Harfuch has sometimes his own agenda, nefarious or not, that he will continue to execute at the same time as as handing over everyone to the US or, you know, allowing the US to operate in Mexico.

• 1:58:14Shawn Ryan?

  Do you?

• 1:58:17Shawn Ryan?

  I mean, obviously, the US has great interests in getting involved at some point.

• 1:58:25Shawn Ryan?

  To the point that the the hand will be forced at some point.

• 1:58:29Speaker 03

  It already is, I think.

• 1:58:31Shawn Ryan?

  Are there any other nations that are getting to the point that they're gonna have to get involved?

• 1:58:40Shawn Ryan?

  Bigger nations. I'm not talking about

• 1:58:44Shawn Ryan?

  Central America, you know? What about Canada? What about any European countries?

• 1:58:52Speaker 03

  I think Canada should. I mean, we have a major fentanyl problem over there. You know, it it matches that of of the US and a border problem. I talked about this last time, that a lot of the fentanyl precursors are coming in through Canadian ports and none of it's being checked. But so far, it seems like that incentive is not there, that manpower is still isn't there. There's this lack of communication between our law enforcement agencies and bodies from federal to provincial levels. And I actually, a source of mine over there told me that they have been, there have been some certain major drug busts coming through the ports, kilos of meth.

• 1:59:38Speaker 03

  And they are not releasing that to the public. They're not even putting out press releases because they don't, they don't want that added pressure.

• 1:59:48Speaker 03

  Uh, so that's already bad, you know, the lack of transparency, downplaying the problem. So I don't think Canada would get into it. Not to mention, Canada is literally extraditing people involved in drug cases that happened on their land, but because it's, you know, DEA helped investigate.

• 2:00:10Speaker 03

  These people are going to the US. They're being extradited to the US for court hearings. So it's already sending, setting this precedent that if they can take the most hands-off approach of it, that they will, which

• 2:00:24Speaker 03

  is, it is what it is. I think in Europe, Spain has a major problem with cartel infiltration and massive amounts of drugs coming in through Spain and then also going, being distributed throughout other European countries directly from Spain. And even certain individuals who are directly linked to criminal organizations, even in Mexico cartels that seek refuge in Spain. So I think, yeah, there's quite a few countries who, you know, perhaps they don't see it as a problem, but when, or they don't want to. But when you're doing this work and you're so dialed in and digging into all of it,

• 2:01:08Speaker 03

  you see how it's all connected and how it can't just be one country taking the initiative for any of these operations to be dismantled in any way. Because it's so widespread and transnational. It has to be this collective effort.

• 2:01:28Shawn Ryan?

  Interesting. Is there anything I'm, I haven't asked you that I should be asking?

• 2:01:32Speaker 03

  I don't know.

• 2:01:34Speaker 03

  I feel, we covered a lot.

• 2:01:35Shawn Ryan?

  We, we covered a lot.

• 2:01:37Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:01:39Shawn Ryan?

  We did. We covered a lot. Lot of different scenarios, lot of potential uh, ways to intervene.

• 2:01:48Shawn Ryan?

  It's an awesome interview.

• 2:01:49Speaker 03

  Thanks for having me. It's really nice to speak to you.

• 2:01:52Shawn Ryan?

  Thanks for coming back. We'll have you again. Where are you heading next? Anywhere in particular?

• 2:01:57Speaker 03

  Yeah, I don't want to say, though. I'm going on assignment, but I never say it in advance.

• 2:02:00Shawn Ryan?

  You gonna get out of, you gonna get into anything non-cartel?

• 2:02:05Speaker 03

  Yeah, that that'll come for sure. We talked about this. Yeah, it will come. But right now, I'm just doing

• 2:02:14Speaker 03

  you know, the stories that matter there, the cartel stuff, boots on the ground.

• 2:02:19Shawn Ryan?

  Right on. Well, I'll be excited to have you back in another year or so, but

• 2:02:25Speaker 03

  I'm here.

• 2:02:26Shawn Ryan?

  Katarina, be safe.

• 2:02:27Speaker 03

  Thank you.

• 2:02:30Speaker 03

  Thank you.

• 2:02:43Shawn Ryan?

  No matter where you're watching The Sean Ryan Show from, if you get anything out of this at all, anything, please like, comment and subscribe. And most importantly, share this everywhere you possibly can. And if you're feeling extra generous, head to Apple Podcasts and Spotify and leave us a review.