Nathan Lane

In a live taping at Symphony Space in New York, Nathan Lane discusses his return to TV with MID-CENTURY MODERN, his early days in theater, THE BIRDCAGE, THE LION KING, and gets emotional talking about his parents. UPCOMING EVENTS! April 6th -- Paul Feig in Miami -- ⁠Tickets here!⁠ April 12th -- C2E2 events in Chicago -- ⁠Tickets here⁠! April 14th -- Bryce Dallas Howard In New York -- Tickets here! SUPPORT OUR SPONSORS! Quince -- Go to Quince.com/happysadco for 365 day returns and free shipping! Check out the ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Happy Sad Confused patreon here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠! We've got discount codes to live events, merch, early access, exclusive episodes, video versions of the podcast, and more! To watch episodes of Happy Sad Confused, subscribe to ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Josh's youtube channel here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:31Speaker 01

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• 0:59Speaker 02

  They started to encourage my parents to dance. And I was like, "What is this about?" And then, they kept saying, "Oh, no, no, no. We haven't danced together in years." And they said, "No, no." And they put on some music. And I saw them get up slowly and move towards one another. And, uh...

• 1:26Speaker 02

  And, uh, they slowly, uh, started to dance. And they were really good. And they were in sync in a way that they never were in real life. But for this moment, they seemed so happy. And they were laughing at the fact that they were even doing it and doing it so well. And then everybody applauded. And then they separated and went to other sides of the room.

• 1:57Speaker 03

  Prepare your ears, humans. Happy, sad, confused, begins now.

• 2:04Josh Horowitz?

  Hey guys, Josh here. Welcome to another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. Another special one for you guys today. A first time guest on the podcast. What a legend. Nathan Lane, front and center, about to enter your eyes and ears through this career conversation. Truly a delight to get to know Nathan, and I think you guys are gonna really dig this. He is a consummate storyteller, an entertainer, and a great actor to boot. So there's a lot to chat about. That's the main event on Happy, Sad, Confused, coming up in just a minute. Before that, the usual reminders and acknowledgements, etc. One thing I didn't mention on the last episode I wanted to thank people for, and if you haven't checked this

• 2:45Josh Horowitz?

  out, please do. We debuted our first episode, maybe we'll make more, that's the big question, of Dog Date. Yes, that's me and a celebrity and our dogs hanging out, and the great Rachel Zegler joined me for a fun walk through Central Park. Lenny was her dog, is her dog, is the most adorable dog. Lucy, my dog, my precious, came with us, and such a great reception from you guys. The full episode is on YouTube here, but there are bits and bobs on Instagram and other places, and it's been really fun to see people respond so well to this. It was made with love and passion, and I desperately want to do more. We're trying to figure out if we can, we'll see. Hey, if you're listening or watching this, and you know somebody that wants

• 3:30Josh Horowitz?

  to sponsor a dog celebrity show, hit me up, guys, in the comments. DM me, do something, I'm out there. Because all I want to do, I'm not making a dog celebrity show to make money, I'm doing it because I want to do it. So we just kind of need to figure out if it's tenable. If Purina, I don't know, you're out there, you want to pay for a celebrity dog show? I can book the hell out of this. I can get celebrities and their dogs on my show, guys. Anyway, that's all I'm saying. All of which is to say, thank you for checking out the Rachel Zegler episode of Dog Date, and if you haven't already, check it out. Usual reminders, upcoming events, April 6, Miami, Florida, me and Paul Feig, get your tickets.

• 4:13Josh Horowitz?

  It's now information's in the show notes, April 12th, Chicago, a whole bunch of panels I'm moderating for C2E2, the same folks that do your New York Comic Con and many more great events. A reunion of The Breakfast Club, John Boyega, Once Upon a Time, a Robocop reunion. It's gonna be a big packed day, so come on out in Chicago and say hi. As always, patreon.com, your home for all things Josh Horowitz and Happy Say Confused, early access, autographed posters, bonus materials, all the fun stuff, patreon.com slash Happy Say Confused. We got price levels for everybody. Give it a shot. Go to the lowest level. See if it's worth your while. If it's not, I love you anyway.

• 4:53Josh Horowitz?

  But it helps keep the, keeps the train running at Happy Say Confused Station. I don't know. End of metaphor. Okay. Main event, Nathan Lane. This was a fantastic special night. We did this at Symphony Space. A beautiful theater on the Upper West Side of Manhattan, Upper West Side where I was born and raised, Upper West Side where Nathan Lane lives now. So it had a lot of sentimental value. It was a packed house and I mean, what can I say about Nathan Lane? You'll see in this conversation, but the man has done it all on Broadway, obviously. The producers, guys and dolls, but also Angels in America. He can do drama, he can do comedy in film, The Lion King and Birdcage.

• 5:39Josh Horowitz?

  Television Emmy winner for Only Murders in the Building and he is currently starring in the new show he was there to promote, actually. Mid-century modern, which is a really fun, traditional kind of sitcom, but very funny. It's from the makers of Will and Grace. And Ryan Murphy and has him and Matt Bomer and the late, great Linda Lavin. Check it out. It drops on March 28th on Hulu and yeah, I mean, you're gonna, you're gonna see, you're gonna hear Nathan Lane is, he's kind of like, I don't know, he's just a consummate storyteller. He's, he can be, he's just got the timing down. He just makes you smile, made me smile.

• 6:20Josh Horowitz?

  So this was a real special one for me. I hope you guys enjoy it and yeah, without any further ado, Symphony Space, New York City. Here's me and Nathan Lane. Hello Symphony Space.

• 6:33Josh Horowitz?

  Thank you guys for being here. My name's Josh Horowitz. If you haven't been to one of my shows before, you're inside my podcast. I'm sorry, you're in it now. It's called Happy, Sad, Confused. And I've been privileged enough over the years to be at Symphony Space a number of times. It is always such an honor to be here. I grew up just a few blocks away, so this is always like coming home. And it's a beautiful theater, and again, thank you. It's also a really special night because this is a first-time guest on the podcast, and I'm gonna say these nice things to his face too, but I'm gonna say it right now. Nathan Lane is a living legend. He can do anything. He is a Tony winner, an Emmy winner. He can do drama, he can do comedy.

• 7:17Josh Horowitz?

  He has entertained all of you many times. I don't know a life without entertainment that involves Nathan Lane. His new series, you're gonna love it, is called Mid-Century Modern. It is coming very soon on Hulu. We're gonna talk about that and a great many things. Please give a warm Symphony Space welcome to the one and only, the legend. It's Nathan Lane, everybody!

• 7:53Speaker 02

  Hi.

• 7:56Speaker 02

  Oh, you have the clock, and go!

• 7:58Josh Horowitz?

  Exactly. Nathan, Symphony Space, Symphony Space, Nathan. Thank you for doing this, sir.

• 8:05Speaker 02

  Sure, thanks for having me.

• 8:06Josh Horowitz?

  Look, I know you're probably ill at ease in front of an audience after all these years.

• 8:13Speaker 02

  No, I like having people watch.

• 8:17Josh Horowitz?

  Is it just white noise to you at this point? Because you have heard so much applause in your storied 50 years of entertainment. I mean, has there been a more celebrated person walking out to applause than Nathan Lane? What does it mean to you?

• 8:34Speaker 02

  Many, but it's nice, it's lovely, you know, people appreciate what you do. You know, plumbers don't get that, so. It's a lovely, lovely fringe benefit of being in the arts.

• 8:49Josh Horowitz?

  Do you ever experience anything resembling stage fright at this point? What's a scenario where Nathan Wayne feels ill at ease?

• 8:55Speaker 02

  I have, I have a little bit. You know, famously, there was Olivier went through a period of stage fright where he would just tell people, "Don't look me in the eye when we're on stage together, otherwise I'll go up." There were two different plays where it happened. A play, a Simon Gray play called "Butley," and a David Mamet play called "November," where I had long monologues. Like, in "November," there were phone calls that I would, for three and a half pages, where no one was talking but me and I was having a conversation with someone. And I usually enjoy those kinds of things.

• 9:40Speaker 02

  I'm good at phone calls. I am, I really am.

• 9:44Josh Horowitz?

  Well-known for your phone call work, yeah.

• 9:45Speaker 02

  It's sort of a special skills. Good at phone calls. Now, it seems quite antiquated, but just texts me onstage.

• 9:55Josh Horowitz?

  You're good at that, too.

• 9:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, reading texts, yeah. But I got into this fear that I wouldn't remember. And so, before each show, I would go down and I would go through everything in my head. Yeah, and I sort of worked my way through it. But both times, it sort of, it was like I had all, I had a lot to say and it got me for a little bit.

• 10:19Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, I would imagine you, you don't go up on a line at this stage in your career. That doesn't happen.

• 10:25Speaker 02

  Well, I'm sure it does. I mean, I, um, there are, you know, over the years now. I haven't done a play now in a few years, but it, um, it, it's like a thing that, it's like a, you know, you're... When it happens, there's this adrenaline and fear that goes through your body where you go, "I don't know, what am I, what am I gonna say? What, I know I have to say something." And then, and then it just comes for some reason, and thankfully, but, um, I mean, you know, I, I'd like to think I have, I'm fairly improvisational, and if I did go up badly, I could just chat for a while.

• 11:06Speaker 02

  I do remember Swoosie Kurtz, the wonderful Swoosie Kurtz, telling me a story about, she had done a play with this older British character actor who constantly went up on his lines, and when he would, he would just turn to her and say, "So, how's your father?"

• 11:25Josh Horowitz?

  It works in any context, for any play.

• 11:27Speaker 02

  Right, and so it's, it's all on them. "So, how's your father?"

• 11:35Josh Horowitz?

  Downright rude, wow. Um, okay, before we get to Mid-Century Modern, which is a wonderful new series from the creators of Will and Grace, Ryan Murphy, an amazing ensemble. We are on the Upper West Side, and when I was doing my copious research, correct me if I'm wrong, Nathan, was your first place in New York, was it the Upper West Side? Does this bring back some memories?

• 11:54Speaker 02

  Yes, it was. And I'm now, yeah, I lived for 20 years in Tribeca, but I'm now back on the Upper West Side, but, uh, thank you. I'm sure I've seen you at Cinderella. But, uh, they, yeah, um, I lived, um, on, uh, seventy, I want to say 77th, between Broadway and, and, and West End, or something like that. Yeah, it's, it was a long time ago. I came to New York in the late 70s, like 78, 79, and I shared an apartment with, with a young actress.

• 12:38Josh Horowitz?

  Do you think about that, like, do you romanticize that time? Or does it, do you recall the, the difficulties of that time of a young up-and-coming actor at this point?

• 12:48Speaker 02

  I don't romanticize it because it was difficult. I was poor and struggling and it was, you know, trying to make ends meet and doing odd jobs, singing telegrams and I used to do surveys for the Harris Poll. I used to, I used to interview farmers and ask them what insecticide they were using. I would call, you know, and you would hear, you know, and I was always so embarrassed by this, you know, and you would hear, like the wife would say, "Well, he's out in the field right now." "I don't know," and then you, "Ab," you would hear "Ab," you know, screaming, you know,

• 13:33Speaker 02

  and then, and then, you know, 10 minutes later, some guy would get on the phone and say, "Yeah." "Hi, Mr. Summers, what kind of insecticide are you using?" And he said, "I'm gonna come to New York and kill you." I used to, I sold things by phone, something called the Bulwarker, which was an isometric plastic, it was obviously some toy that was made by Mattel that didn't work and they turned it into an isometric, people to do exercise. I sold that TV guide, I sold by phone, and then, and then political surveys.

• 14:16Josh Horowitz?

  Man of many talents, you can do it all.

• 14:19Speaker 02

  Well, it was, it was interesting because it was improvisation and they would give you a script. So no matter what the person said, you would have a response. I could always tell when someone calls me, you know, and it's one of the, we'd like to talk to you, and you know that if you say, "I really don't have time," well, you might have time for this.

• 14:39Josh Horowitz?

  "How's your father?"

• 14:42Speaker 02

  "How's your father?"

• 14:46Josh Horowitz?

  Alright, let's talk about this wonderful new series. It is called Mid-Century Modern. I talked a little bit about the pedigree of the show. It's also a bit of a full-circle moment, if you'll allow me. Over forty years ago, you did do a sitcom that was called... Ironically, this could be the name of this sitcom, too. One of the Boys was the name of the sitcom.

• 15:06Speaker 02

  Oh yeah, but that wasn't my fault.

• 15:10Speaker 02

  That was fucking Mickey Rooney's show. I was a kid. They hired...

• 15:16Josh Horowitz?

  Dana Carvey?

• 15:17Speaker 02

  Dana Carvey, yes. It was an eclectic group. Scatman Crothers. Scatman Crothers. I once said to him, "Scatman, how do you... You look so young. How do you stay so fit? How do you do it?" And he said, "Nathan, I'll tell ya. Every morning, I get up and I take a nice, hot shower. And then I smoke a big fucking joint.

• 15:40Speaker 02

  And I'm ready to face the day."

• 15:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, that was... You know, that was... I knew going into it that it was not gonna go beyond thirteen episodes. You know, it was just one of those shows. It was... That was a show by... Created by Saul Turtletaub and Bernie Orenstein, who had written it for Jack Albertson. Because they had done Chico and the Man with him, and then he died. And then someone decided, because Mickey Rooney was having a renaissance at the time. He was doing Sugar Babies and The Black Stallion. So, he was also, you know, doing Sugar Babies at the same time. He was doing eight shows a week and thought, "Oh, with my spare time during the day, I'll do a situation comedy."

• 16:27Speaker 02

  Anyway, it was not... It was not a good show.

• 16:30Josh Horowitz?

  I've heard Dana talk about it.

• 16:32Speaker 02

  Oh, Dana was traumatized for life by that.

• 16:35Josh Horowitz?

  He's talked about, like, Mickey would bring a gun. Mickey would, like... Mickey sounded like a character, to say the least.

• 16:41Speaker 02

  Oh, he was nuts.

• 16:44Speaker 02

  He was totally... He was totally traumatized with those years at MGM. "Have another pill, Mickey, and do the number." You know, it was just crazy. So he never, he kinda never grew up. And he was, yeah, he, you know, he was enjoying this Renaissance. Because, you know, he'd been out doing dinner theater.

• 17:09Speaker 02

  And, you know, it was, he really struggled for quite a while. And, and then he had this moment again, that was very nice. And he was, but he was, yeah, he was crazy. You know, and he was not, not a born-again Christian. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but, you know, there was, and then meanwhile, he was betting on horses, you know, he was, you know, he was just so crazy. Oh, there's stories I could tell you, but, you know.

• 17:38Josh Horowitz?

  We're extending by an hour tonight, one more, yeah. Okay, let's talk about this. This is a slightly different experience, I would imagine.

• 17:43Speaker 02

  I'll say.

• 17:46Speaker 02

  Well, you know, I, here's the thing. I haven't done one of these in a very long time. My, my history with the multicam is dicey, to say the least. And, and, you know, it just, it hasn't worked. So I was doing, this came about because of Ryan Murphy. I was doing this mini-series, Monsters, about the Menendez Brothers.

• 18:11Speaker 02

  And he called to say, he had this script from the creators of Will and Grace, Max Munchnick and David Cohan, and that he had never done a multicam before, but he read the script and said, "If I'm gonna do one, this is the one I'd like to do." And they kinda wrote it with you in mind. And so, and he said, "It's sort of the gay Golden Girls." And I was, you know, which is, I think there's already been a gay Golden Girls. It was called The Golden Girls.

• 18:46Speaker 02

  So, so I was, you know, I was like, you know, it's Ryan Murphy. So I said, "Oh, sure, sounds great." But inside I was, you know, thinking, "Oh, God, help me." And then I read it, and it was hilarious. It was screamingly funny and very smartly set up. And you saw where the show had the potential to continue. And that's hard to do in a pilot. Pilots are the most difficult because you are setting up the story and the characters. And it's hard to do all that and be funny. But this, they accomplished it. So that's where it started. And what else you want to know?

• 19:33Josh Horowitz?

  That's it. Thanks, everybody. No. We were saying backstage also, it's directed by the great Jimmy Burrows. If you guys don't know, he's directed every great sitcom you've loved in the history of television.

• 19:42Speaker 02

  The legendary Jimmy Burrows. He had directed all of Will and Grace 2. And so he directed all 10 of these episodes. And he's just amazing. He's 81. But, you know, he's just amazing. And, you know, look, this is, you know, as William Goldman famously said, "Nobody knows anything." But this was an incredibly happy experience. And it was that thing of, look, it's all about the writing. It all comes down to the writing. You've got to have that, or you don't have anything. And just the kind of miracle of casting all of these people, you know, Matt Bomer, Nathan Lee Graham, just phenomenal actors.

• 20:25Speaker 02

  And the late, great Linda Laban, who we had always wanted to work together. And, yeah.

• 20:35Speaker 02

  And so it was just kind of this magical experience. It was, it went so, I would say to my husband, he said, "How's it going?" And I would say, "It's going so well, it's almost unnerving."

• 20:49Josh Horowitz?

  When's the other shoe gonna drop?

• 20:51Speaker 02

  So that's, you know what, that's all you, in anything in show business, that's all you have is the experience, you know? Is what you take away from it. And then whatever happens will happen, and that's not up to me. But it's, it has been the happiest experience I've had ever in television. And, and a lot of it has to do with when you're working with some of the best people who've ever done this form, it makes a huge difference.

• 21:19Josh Horowitz?

  Well, you know the writing's spot on when you read your character name, and it's Bunny Schneiderman.

• 21:24Speaker 02

  Bunny Schneiderman.

• 21:27Josh Horowitz?

  Half the work is done right there.

• 21:28Speaker 02

  I believe I had a joke where I said Bunny, someone asked me, he says Bunny Schneiderman. Say it soft and it's almost like praying.

• 21:39Speaker 02

  But Bunny Schneiderman, yes. He is a very wealthy and successful manufacturer of women's bras. He has a very, he has like fifty stores across the country called The Bunny Hutch.

• 21:57Speaker 02

  And he's living in Palm Springs in this huge house with his mother, played by Linda Levin Sible. And, and the show opens at the funeral of a very close friend of his named George, and his two other closest friends, Jerry and Arthur, played by Matt Bomer and Nathan Lee Graham, are all gathered. And they come back to his house, and, you know, my character is sort of, he's sort of lonely. He has one foot in retirement. He, he's never had the great love of his life. And, and so he's having such a great time with these two friends. He, on the spur of the moment, says, "Why, why can't this be the rest of our lives?"

• 22:42Speaker 02

  And he suggests, you know, the reasoning behind, you don't, you know, you're too poor to live in New York and you're, you know, he's a, Matt Bomer, who I think will be the revelation for a lot of people, because he's so hilarious. In this part, he plays this sort of dim-witted sexpot airline steward.

• 23:02Speaker 02

  And so I talked them into moving in with me. And then, of course, there are some complications. But it, you know, it becomes about this chosen family. And, and, and these three, I wouldn't say they're gold. I'm the only golden girl. But there's, but it's three gay men at different stages of their lives and negotiating, getting older and, and, you know, and try to, I guess, be viable in the marketplace. And, you know, and it's, that's, it's, it's great fun. And it's so, the writing is incredibly smart. And the, the wonderful thing on Hulu is that we have this freedom in terms of language and situation.

• 23:47Speaker 02

  And so it's, you know, I used to think Will and Grace was, were, they were pushing the boundaries with that. But this, we go much further, to say the least. And so maybe it's the right time for something like that.

• 24:03Josh Horowitz?

  There you go.

• 24:03Speaker 02

  To push a few boundaries.

• 24:12Josh Horowitz?

  If I had a dollar for everybody in my life who's benefited from therapy, I would be a very, very rich man. Therapy has certainly helped me, especially when I was a confused teenager. And thankfully, that's not a shameful thing to say anymore, right? It's okay to seek help and need help and talk about it. We're all doing our best. We're just trying to get by, right, guys? Unfortunately, the reality is that getting help is still harder than it should be. That's why I'm thrilled always to have Rula as a sponsor of Happy, Sad, Confused, because it's very obvious to me that online therapy should be both accessible and affordable for everybody. So let's make it easy for anybody who wants help to get help. That's where Rula comes in. Here's the thing a lot of online therapy platforms don't actually talk about. Most don't take insurance.

• 24:56Josh Horowitz?

  That means you're either paying out of pocket or signing up for some very expensive monthly subscription. Rula does it all differently. They work with over 120 insurance plans, so the average copay... I can't get over this. It's just 15 bucks a session. So basically two of your lattes. Okay. A pretty good deal if you ask me. That means you can get real therapy from a licensed professional without breaking the bank. And Rula doesn't just set you up and leave you alone. They give you that therapist and then they're along the way, the whole journey with you to make sure your care is working for you and you're actually making progress, hitting your goals. This can all happen right away, guys. With Rula, appointments are often available as soon as tomorrow. There are no wait lists. There's no frustrating back and forth. They

• 25:37Josh Horowitz?

  make it easy. Thousands of people are already using Rula to get affordable, high-quality therapy that's actually covered by insurance. Visit rula.com/happy to get started. That's rula, R-U-L-A dot com slash happy. You deserve mental health care that works with you, not against your budget. You guys know the best stuff in your closet is the stuff that you actually wear, right? The things that you just keep coming back to, whether you're going to work, you're going out, you're just hanging around. Well, with the holidays coming up, Quince makes it really easy to find great gifts for everyone on your list. This year, I'm doing a lot of my holiday shopping at Quince. And yes, that includes a few things for myself. That's okay, right? One of the things I love about Quince is that you're getting really high-quality

• 26:20Josh Horowitz?

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• 27:03Josh Horowitz?

  how functional and fashionable all my Quince stuff is. I've got a cashmere hoodie that is honestly invaluable and actually makes me look like I know what I'm talking about when it comes to fashion, and that is a miracle. So give the gift of quality this holiday season. Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers or go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. It's now available in Canada and the UK too. And when Quince asks where you've heard about them, you know what to do. Let them know it was happy, sad, confused. That's the best way to support our show.

• 27:39Josh Horowitz?

  So, okay, we do have the luxury of a bit of time. So we're gonna do a little bit of "This is Your Life," Nathan Lane. Lie back, I don't know if that seat reclines a little bit, but get comfortable.

• 27:50Josh Horowitz?

  What do you want to say about your parents? This is a big question, because this really formed you. Your parents, I know, I've read a lot about them. It was an interesting childhood, a unique childhood, to say the least. How do you think, I mean, this is a long, a short question with a long answer. How did they form the man I see today? The artist I see today?

• 28:17Speaker 02

  How did they form the man you see today?

• 28:25Speaker 02

  Well, you know, um, you know, my, yeah, that's, you know, I've been trying to write a memoir. They, I mean, they gave him the money, so I'm, I'm just trying. But it's, it's, it's interesting to start to look back at those days. You know, my mother, on her wedding day, her mother, my grandmother, who was, I was very close to, took my mother's side and said, "You're making the biggest mistake of your life."

• 29:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, my, my father was, um, you know, he, he sang. He, he was a truck driver for many years. And, um, and then he got involved in local politics. And, um, my mother was, she was, she worked as a secretary. At first she worked at, actually, at Manischewitz.

• 29:34Speaker 02

  She worked at a, yeah, for Man of Shevys, and then she became a secretary at the prosecutor's office in Jersey City. She was part of a secretarial pool for all the lawyers. Anyway, when my father got involved in politics and then he, it didn't go so well and he started drinking very heavily and he became an alcoholic. And it was really my mother was raising three. I have two older brothers. And she had me late in life. She was 40 years old when I was an accident. They went to a wedding and

• 30:12Speaker 02

  had a couple of drinks and, you know, had sex for the first time in decades. And, you know, the future light of Broadway came along.

• 30:27Speaker 02

  So.

• 30:30Speaker 02

  Let's fuck until we have a Tony Award winner.

• 30:35Speaker 02

  So.

• 30:39Speaker 02

  So, um, so when I came along, you know, yeah, it was, it was the really, it was, their marriage was at its worst. And he was, the only time I would see him was when he was drunk most of the time.

• 30:59Speaker 02

  You know, I remember this one morning, going to school and

• 31:04Speaker 02

  and it was a really sunny day and I'm walking down the street and there was this place called the Stegman Street Tavern and the back door was open and the sun was sort of shining into this bar. And I saw, I stopped and I saw that it was my father who was sweeping up, obviously to pay for drinks perhaps and.

• 31:31Speaker 02

  And he sensed that somebody was looking at him and he turned around. And we just stood there and stared at each other. He didn't say anything to me, he didn't come out and I didn't, I didn't say anything. We just stared at each other. And then he went back to sweeping and I went on to school. And, um, so I didn't have, I didn't really have a relationship with him. As I did with my mother. But, um, how that, look, we're all, we, both myself and my two brothers, we all bear the scars of, you know, what went on.

• 32:12Speaker 02

  And yet we've survived and, and have succeeded and, and, you know, I think there's part of me that probably has inherited whatever the, the performing side of my father, whatever that might have been, or at least maybe that's what I think might have been. And, um, yeah, it's, it's, um, those, you know, I think in some ways it'll, their terribly unhappy marriage probably drove me into the arts, into, into show business or plays. It was an escape, yeah. It was an escape. You know, I will tell you one, this is so depressing, hearing about this sad marriage,

• 32:56Speaker 02

  but, um, this one time, there was one time, they were together. He, they were, he had two, she got him to go to AA a couple of times. And, um, we went to a holiday party and, um, at, uh, her brother's. And, and my mother's family looked down on my father and, um, because, because he was an alcoholic. And yet, all of my mother's siblings were all alcoholics.

• 33:27Speaker 02

  And my father used to say, "They could drink me under the table any day." Anyway, they went, he was sober, and they were at this holiday party. And then, for some reason, we were at my uncle's house in the suburbs, Plainfield, New Jersey, I found very glamorous. And they had a dining room table, and I thought, "Wow, that's something, that's fancy." When you have a dining room table. And they were playing music, and then they started to encourage my parents to dance. And I was like, "What is this about?" And then, they kept saying, "Oh, no, no, no, we haven't danced together in years." And they said, "No, no," and they put on some music.

• 34:12Speaker 02

  And they kept saying, "Do the Peabody, you're always so great at the Peabody," which is a kind of rather difficult dance. And I saw them get up slowly and move towards one another. And...

• 34:32Speaker 02

  And they slowly started to dance. And they were really good. And they were in sync in a way that they never were in real life. But for this moment, they seemed so happy, and they were laughing, and they were laughing at the fact that they were even doing it, and doing it so well. And then everybody applauded. And then they separated and went to other sides of the room.

• 35:06Josh Horowitz?

  Thanks for sharing that.

• 35:12Josh Horowitz?

  You know, I'm struck when you talk about your early days of your career, when I've heard you talk about it. You know, there were struggles, there was a path as you started to work. But it sounds like you always had this confidence that it was gonna work out. Is that fair to say that you, and I guess like what?

• 35:31Speaker 02

  Well, I came from an alcoholic, a traumatic depressive.

• 35:34Josh Horowitz?

  It's all connected, there you go.

• 35:35Speaker 02

  I had some, I don't know why, yes, I did think, yeah, it's all gonna work out. I don't know why I had that, I don't, I can't even call it confidence. It was just some part of me that said, "It's gonna work out." This is, you know, and I used to visualize it as if it was a movie. And this was the beginning of the movie, and when I'm struggling and, you know, starving and, and, you know, it seemed impossible, and, cause I had no show business connections whatsoever. And, I mean, at least in my case, you know, there's all those stories of people going into show business and everybody's saying, "No, it's, no, don't do that." And my family's like, "Sure, see if you can make some money, and then give me some."

• 36:20Speaker 02

  So, yeah, it was, and my brother, my oldest brother Dan, who's really the one who encouraged my interest in the theater and was incredibly supportive and sort of played a paternal role in my early life, you know, encouraged it, and, so, yes, there was that, yeah, somehow I thought I was gonna make it.

• 36:48Josh Horowitz?

  Did you see, like, so when I'm looking at your work, for instance, in the eighties, you know, you make your Broadway debut with the great George C. Scott, you're working, you're doing kind of bit things in television here and there, like, did you see a path, like, a path in TV and film? When did that emerge as something that felt like a viable career? Or did it feel like it was gonna be a life on stage at that time?

• 37:15Speaker 02

  You know, TV and film just seemed so far away, and I never, I don't know why, it was just always about the theater. But I guess it was, that's what was my initial interest, and my brother took me to see theater in New York, and that's what fascinated me, that whole process. And, and watching the Tony Awards on television as a kid, and so those were the, those people... You know, fascinated me, Robert Preston and Rex Harrison and Zero Mustel and all of those, Angela Lansbury and on and on. So, um, the TV and film was, I just never, to be honest, I didn't really pursue it all that much. I mean, if something came, I mean,

• 38:00Speaker 02

  I'd audition in the beginning, you'd want to, you audition for everything and see where it leads, but I always thought you would learn more working in the theater in terms of acting.

• 38:11Josh Horowitz?

  Well, I was gonna say, you go down the YouTube rabbit hole, you can see your guest starring spot on Miami Vice as Morty Price, for instance. That's forever on the internet.

• 38:22Speaker 02

  Sure, sure. Bring that up, why don't you?

• 38:25Josh Horowitz?

  I'm not gonna show it, don't worry. But, I mean, you talk about like finding the breadth of work. Is it fair to say Terrence McNally was the one that kind of saw a different side of you or gave you the opportunity that you weren't getting to show a different side of you on stage and that obviously eventually led to greater work in film?

• 38:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, Terrence and a director named John Tellinger. I had done a play, this Simon Gray play called The Comet Pursuit, and I did it first at Long Wharf and then we did it in LA and then I did it off Broadway. But John Tellinger was working at the Long Wharf at that time and he was, he was a literary manager and then he was moving into, he had been an actor and he was moving into directing and so he's the one who, John Tellinger is, cast me in the Rob, John Robin Bates's first play in New York, The Film Society. And, um, he was really the one who's, you know, said to me, you know, you're more than

• 39:26Speaker 02

  just funny. And, and, um, and then it was, uh, he was directing this, um, play by Terrence called The Lisbon Traviata at the Manhattan Theater Club. And they were, um, they were looking for a much older actor. And they weren't finding anybody that they liked and it was a sort of a last minute thing that John Tillyger said, "But what about Nathan?" And Terrence was like, "Well, I love Nathan, but I, you know, I think he's too young." But they decided to bring me in and then I auditioned and then they gave me the part. And it was, yeah, that was life changing.

• 40:08Josh Horowitz?

  Before we come to what became an amazing run as you started to do more and more film, I do want to mention one Broadway show that personally meant a lot to me and I'm sure many saw it. It was a production of Guys and Dolls, which I was a teenager when I saw that famous production and it was the most entertaining thing I'd ever seen on a stage. And I'm sure many share that memory. I mean, that was kind of a bit of a phenomenon and you were an other phenomenon that came on stage afterwards. But what do you remember of being in the eye of that storm at the time? This classic show, this classic production? What did it feel like at the time?

• 40:46Speaker 02

  I know. It's very, it's very fondly remembered. And, yeah, well, you know, it's Guys and Dolls. So it's, you know, it's arguably the greatest musical comedy ever written other than Gypsy. So it's, it's sort of the quintessential musical and, and, and, and as my friend Louis Stadlin likes to say, it's sort of, he thinks it's the greatest treatise ever written about the issues between men and women. And, and, yeah, he always says he would happily, could happily spend the rest of his life on the road doing Guys

• 41:28Speaker 02

  and Dolls. It's just, you know, it's, it's the show. It's, again, it's the material. It was just a, you know, it was a show that I loved. I had, I had played Nathan Detroit in a non-equity dinner theater. When I was 21, at the Meadowbrook Dinner Theater in Cedar Grove, New Jersey.

• 41:51Josh Horowitz?

  Another great production.

• 41:52Speaker 02

  Another great production. And so, and then when I joined Actors Equity, there was, my name was Joseph Lane. There was already a Joseph Lane, and they said, you know, you'll have to change your name, which was very traumatic. And they said, oh, take your time. The woman said, take your time, you know, come back. And I said, no, just give me a minute. And I sat down on a bench across from her little window, and I had done, I had played Nathan, and I had played Benjamin Franklin in 1776 in Non-Equity Summer Stock. And I thought, I'll either be Benjamin or Nathan Lane.

• 42:33Speaker 02

  And then I thought it had a better rhythm, and I said, I'll be Nathan Lane. So to get to finally do it in a big, big time Broadway revival directed by Jerry Zax, and, you know, it was, it was, it's great, great material. And yet, there was a lot of pressure on that production, you know, because everybody would basically say, yeah, you're doing Guys and Dolls, don't fuck it up. And it hadn't been done in a long time. The last one had been in the late 70s. Abe Burrows directed an old, a black production of it, which I saw, which was great.

• 43:16Speaker 02

  And so, there was that, it was a lot of pressure, and very, all eyes were on that revival. And then, yeah, I mean, it, we, you know, it had, it was a journey to finding it. It was designed very boldly by Tony Walton and William Ibe Long. And you kind of, you couldn't, you know, you couldn't walk on into the small independent film version of Guys and Dolls. You had to live up to these sets, and, you know, it was so brightly, it was like all in Technicolor. So you had to come on and take the stage. And it took, it took all of previews to figure that out.

• 43:58Speaker 02

  But it was, it's, that show is a gift to any actor.

• 44:02Josh Horowitz?

  I still can't believe they haven't done another film version of Guys and Dolls.

• 44:05Speaker 02

  They are gonna do it.

• 44:06Josh Horowitz?

  They've been talking about it.

• 44:07Speaker 02

  I know, they keep talking, but I think this one is gonna have, Rob Marshall is gonna do it.

• 44:12Josh Horowitz?

  Long overdue.

• 44:20Speaker 00

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• 45:24Josh Horowitz?

  To this day, do children recognize your voice from The Lion King? Does that ever happen out of context?

• 45:29Speaker 02

  No, children could care less. Children have other issues.

• 45:36Josh Horowitz?

  Do parents say this is...

• 45:38Speaker 02

  Parents used to say that, you know, and would say, "This is the guy who did..." They don't do it anymore, really, but when the movie had come out, yeah, people would say, "This is the guy who did the voice." And kids would just look at you like you... "I ate Timon." And, "Well, where's Timon?" Yeah, no, yeah, that was... And that was sort of happened around Guys and Dolls. We were doing... Ernie Cibella, who was the voice of Pumba, the Warthog. He and I were doing Guys and Dolls at the time. And we both auditioned for the Hyenas.

• 46:23Speaker 02

  And I had said, "Let us read together, it'll make it easier, 'cause there's three hyenas talking." And then we left and thought, "Well, that'll never happen." And then they called us and said, "We want you to play these two comic characters." And so when we went in and they showed us the drawings of Timon and Pumbaa, I said, "Well, what do you want them to sound like?" And so they were saying, "Well, you're doing guys and dolls." And he said, "They're kinda like Damon Runyon characters, you know? They're the comic relief, but you should be..." They said to me, "You should talk in a higher pitch,

• 47:06Speaker 02

  and Ernie should be in a lower pitch to differentiate." And Ernie sort of found this combination of... He always says, "It's a combination of the rhythms of this character actor no one here would probably remember, called Wallace Beery." So Ernie would... You know, when he'd go, "Ah, gee, kid, you know, he's doing Wallace Beery." But then, when he gets excited, he goes, "And it's very high!" He's doing Michael Gotso from The Godfather. It's very elaborate vocal stuff Ernie is doing.

• 47:44Speaker 02

  And then I just, you know, decided to be Jewish and from Brooklyn.

• 47:52Josh Horowitz?

  It worked. It worked.

• 47:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 47:54Josh Horowitz?

  So that's somewhat of an unlikely phenomenon. And then there's a film that, to this day, I'm sure, comes up almost every day, The Birdcage, that has every single element... And you never know if it's gonna work out, but certainly it had a lot going for it. Between Mike Nichols and Elaine May, obviously, the original production, La Caja Fall, Ewan Robin, Gene Hackman, the late, great Gene Hackman. But what an opportunity for you to get that kind of a role front and center in a film with that pedigree.

• 48:25Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 48:26Josh Horowitz?

  Did it feel like that in the moment? Like, this is... I'm getting my shot?

• 48:30Speaker 02

  Oh, absolutely.

• 48:32Speaker 02

  No, and you know, the joke is, I had to turn it down. Because they were, they were building, Jerry Zax was building a production of A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum around me. And it was going to be a conflict with this film that Mike Nichols was gonna make. And so, you know, I had to say to him, you know, after all of this buildup and I had done a screen test and the whole thing, and I had to say, "I can't, it's not gonna work out, I can't, you leave them in the lurch, you know, it would be unethical." And then, Mike Nichols wouldn't let it go. And, you know, Scott Rudin was producing this production of A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum.

• 49:18Speaker 02

  And who I knew, and so, Mike would call me, he called me once. He was like on vacation in Ireland, and I was in the dressing room for Laughter on the 23rd Floor, this Neil Simon play. And he said, "Dear boy, I keep seeing people, but I just think you're the guy to play this part." And I said, "Oh," I said, "you know, I would love to do it," I said, "but I," I said, "you know, I have no power here. You're Mike Nichols, perhaps if you called Scott Rudin, an agreement could be made." "But I wouldn't know about such things."

• 50:02Speaker 02

  And so, and then the next morning, Scott Rudin called and said, "You really wanna do this movie?" And I was like, "Yeah, well, yeah, why wouldn't I wanna do a movie directed by Mike Nichols, written by Elaine May, starring Robin Williams?"

• 50:16Speaker 02

  That, that would be a foolish thing to turn down. He said, "You realize we're gonna have to postpone by a year?" And I said, "I realize that." I said, "You know, I did turn it down." So, he said, "Okay." And, and so, it's really thanks to Scott Rudin that I was able to do the film. And then, it actually paid off, because by the time we opened the show, the following year, the movie had come out. And it's sort of, I wasn't just this New York actor making good, but it was, oh, the guy from that, the guy in the dress is now in a toga.

• 50:56Josh Horowitz?

  I mean, he also, it strikes me, like, the narrative of your career, it's like... This actor who can entertain audiences in every possible way and be so wonderfully comedic, but then also shows off, especially in the last 15 years, this dramatic side. I mean, that's what Robin did. Robin was the funniest man on the planet and somehow also changed the narrative for himself. Do you think about that? Like, was he almost a model for you as you kind of navigated your own career, your own path?

• 51:26Speaker 02

  Well, not consciously, no, but it certainly, for me, it came up. There was a period where, how much time do we have? There was a period where I was doing a musical on Broadway called The Addams Family,

• 51:51Speaker 02

  which was reviled by the critics. I mean, reviled. Jackie Hoffman, who was in it, said, "Jesus, even gay men don't like this fucking music."

• 52:06Speaker 02

  But it didn't seem to matter to the public, because they just wanted to see those characters they wanted and they liked, and it was the notion of all of us in it. So it succeeded in spite of what had been said about it. And so, but it gave me some time to think. And at the same time, Charles Isherwood, who was then a critic at The New York Times, wrote this lovely piece about me, a kind of a career assessment. I guess he felt sorry for me, being trapped in The Addams Family. And he wrote this lovely piece about my career. And he said, he referred, said I was like the great, the last, what the hell was it?

• 52:52Speaker 02

  I was the greatest stage entertainer of the last decade. And the word, and you know, and as flattering as this piece was, I can find the dark cloud in any silver lining. And the word entertainer sort of irked me. And I thought, is that how I'm seen after, at that point? I don't know how long I've been doing, I've been an actor, 35 years or so at that point. And I was like, you know, I'm an actor. I'm not just, I'm not an entertainer. And I thought, I, I need to do something. I need to shake things up. I need to challenge myself. I need to challenge the audience. And I, because I think I have more to offer as an actor. And, and, and I wonder if I can do that.

• 53:36Speaker 02

  I wonder if I could, if it's even possible to shift people's perception. Because, you know, people like to, they like to categorize you. They like to put you in a box. And you don't come out of that box. Just stay in the box and do what we like you to do. So I, I thought, you know, how do I do that? And then I had read this interview with, in Variety, with Bob Falls, the director. And he was the artistic director, the Goodman Theater in Chicago. And Brian Dennehy, and they had a long artistic relationship and did many plays in Chicago. And some of them came to New York, like Death of a Salesman and Long Day's Journey. And Brian Dennehy was a very old friend of mine, over 30 years. We, we had known each other.

• 54:21Speaker 02

  And, and they were talking about revisiting The Iceman Cometh. Brian had done it in 1990 in Chicago. And it, it was a huge success. I'm surprised it didn't come into New York. But they were talking about revisiting it. And Brian taking on the role of Larry Slate. And, you know, who could play Hickey? And so I very, I don't know why, I just said, that's, that's it. That's, that's what I need to do, something like that. That would certainly shake things up.

• 55:01Speaker 02

  So I wrote Bob Falls and I, you know, and I explained, you know, I had read this article and I said, "I'd like to put myself forward if you do Iceman and here's why, here's my concept for it." And he wrote me back and said, "You know, we were just talking off the top of our heads, there is no production planned." But, he said, "If you would like to do it, let's get together and discuss it." And so eventually, I did. I went to Chicago. I mean, I wanted to do it in Chicago. And, you know who had the rights? Scott Rudin.

• 55:40Speaker 02

  And then he wouldn't, he wasn't gonna give them to the Goodman Theater. Yeah. So I had to, you know, it's his favorite pastime. So I had to, I had to call him and say, "Please, I want, I just want to do, I'm not looking, this isn't a pre-Broadway tryout. I want to just, I just want to do this play and I want to do it in Chicago. And I want to do it with Dennehy and Bob Falls." And so he said, "Okay." And it was, that was, that really was a life-changing experience because of the demands of that piece are just extraordinary.

• 56:21Speaker 02

  And it's, Dennehy said, "Well, other than Lear, you only pick the most difficult role ever written." And, you know, he was my, Brian was just...

• 56:38Speaker 02

  He said, "Someone else." I, uh... Fuck, this is what happens when you get old.

• 56:46Josh Horowitz?

  Someone get this man a tissue.

• 56:49Speaker 02

  You just, you just start crying a lot. Anyway, he was such a, you know, a mentor and champion of mine, doing that part. And doing it together, doing it with him was so important to me and Bob. And then, you know, and eventually, we did it at the Brooklyn Academy. And it was... You know, that thing with, it's O'Neill. I highly recommend O'Neill. If you want to shake things up. Because, you know, nobody writes like that anymore. And the kind of, you know, I can remember reading in this interview with Colleen Duhers, where she had done, started to do O'Neill, and she said, "Oh, it's ridiculous.

• 57:34Speaker 02

  In one paragraph, you know, you, you know, it's, it's just, how do you do this stuff?" And, and, and, and it is, he, the, he, he's asking you to go as far as he's going in the writing, to jump off this cliff with him. And, and you got, you've got to surrender to it. And, and if you do, that's when it works. Giving yourself over to it, because it's, he's, you know, Iceman, he's asking you to go to the darkest places in your soul, and the places you didn't even know existed. And so it's, it's, you know, but it's, it is, once you've been through it, it's, it, it changes everything.

• 58:15Speaker 02

  It changes, it changed certainly for me, how I work, how I approach things. It changed everything.

• 58:21Josh Horowitz?

  And, and maybe leads to something, I mean, a lot of the stuff you just said could describe, "I got a chance to see Angels in America." I mean, he was Roy Cohn. Talk about a, a ferocious performance, ferocious human being. I guess we've now learned Roy Cohn might be the most consequential human being to our sad times we live in now.

• 58:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's right. And he has a lot to answer for.

• 58:43Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 58:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 58:44Josh Horowitz?

  But to be in that, that, I mean, you know, it's one thing to be in the producers and these things that just bring sheer joy from an audience, but it's, it's a different, I would imagine, a different energy, a different level of satisfaction going through O'Neill, Kushner, feeling that energy.

• 58:59Speaker 02

  But it was, it's stuff, doing stuff like that, like Iceman, and, and I was just lucky that a few other things came along, and in television as well, and more serious things, and then, and that's really what led to, I think, being asked to play Roy Cohn, which was, you know, it's, Roy Cohn is just, in that play, not, this is not the real human being, who was vile, but that character in the play, you know, that's just, it's, it's, uh, let me tell you, it's heaven.

• 59:31Speaker 02

  It's just one of the greatest parts ever written. It was just the most thrilling, thrilling thing to do. Seven and a half hours, you know? And those two show days when you did the whole thing. I mean, that's what, you know, you realize then what theater can be. It really is a communal experience. And the people who would come and be there and then go out and have dinner and talk about it and come back for the perestroika. You know, that was just the greatest experience. You know, that just doesn't come along very often, material like that.

• 1:00:11Josh Horowitz?

  It seems to me, coming full circle, I mean, you talked about how this has been the best television experience of your life during mid-century modern. And then I look at the recent film work. I mean, we were talking backstage about "Beau is Afraid." And like when someone like Ari Aster thinks about you, like the coolest out there, younger filmmaker is thinking about you, you're in something like "Dix the Musical," which is as out there and insane as you get. I mean, do you find that you found, I don't know, like an interesting new niche in film and TV where...

• 1:00:39Speaker 02

  Not at all.

• 1:00:40Josh Horowitz?

  No?

• 1:00:41Speaker 02

  No, no. It was just a moment and it passed.

• 1:00:44Josh Horowitz?

  No, it has. That's not true.

• 1:00:45Speaker 02

  It was, yeah, I had an age 24 love affair for one year.

• 1:00:52Josh Horowitz?

  Well, what are you looking for in film and TV? What don't they think of you for?

• 1:00:55Speaker 02

  Well, you know, that was just, you know, that was just Ari, you know, contacting me about that. And then "Dix the Musical" was just, you know, I, you know, obviously I read it and I was like, "Holy fuck." And then I, then they said Larry Charles was gonna direct it, and I love Larry Charles, and we had a couple of zooms to discuss it. And then I just, you know, I said, "I've gotta meet these two young guys, Aaron Jackson and Josh Sharp." They'd done this as a sketch at Upright Citizens Brigade when it was called "Fucking Identical Twins."

• 1:01:40Speaker 02

  Their twisted version of The Parent Trap. In which they played all the parts. And so, I said, "Well, let me have dinner with them and meet them and discuss this." And then, you know, four hours later, and many cosmopolitans, I said, "Well, I guess we're making a movie." And, um, yeah, I just admired, you know, I admired their chutzpah, their, um, the audacity of it. And, like, you know, the, um, we're not, and you know, as Aaron used to say, "Well, we're not doing it to upset people. We're doing it, we're not doing it for the people who won't like it. We're making this for the people who will like it."

• 1:02:22Speaker 02

  And, um, yeah, it was, it was, you know, born to be a cult film. But, um, but great fun. I mean, they're really smart guys. I mean, for something so deeply silly and absurd, they're really smart guys and very funny, and I love them. You know, they were like the gay sons I never had. So, I was, you know, I, we made a movie musical in 21 days. And, um, you know, and I got to, you know, Megan Mullally is an old friend. And we, so I knew that if she played the, my ex-wife, it would, you know, that she would, I mean, she's just phenomenal.

• 1:03:04Speaker 02

  She's just an inspired comedian and singer, and extraordinary singer. So that was just, we, we just had a blast. And anytime Megan can improvise, you know, she's in heaven. And, yeah, it was just, we had, we had a great time and, you know. And so, it's exciting to work with young people and, you know, take a chance on somebody like, like Aaron and Josh, or work with this, you know, somebody as brilliant as Ari Aster, and, and be a part of that. But those projects are, you know, I don't think anybody saw them. You know, they kind of came and went very quickly, you know, unless you,

• 1:03:46Speaker 02

  every once in a while, someone will bring up, you know, Bo is afraid.

• 1:03:52Josh Horowitz?

  If you see it, you never forget it. We'll put it that way.

• 1:03:54Speaker 02

  Well, sure. It's like, what is it, five hours? It just goes on and on and on. But it's fascinating, and to get to work with Joaquin Phoenix and Amy Ryan, I had a great time. But yeah, I'd love to think it could lead to interesting film roles, but not so far.

• 1:04:17Josh Horowitz?

  We're manifesting tonight. Okay, time is running short. A couple of audience questions. This actually segues well out of you talking about Amy Ryan and Joaquin. Do you have a dream scene partner, an actor you've never worked with you want to work with?

• 1:04:29Speaker 02

  An actor I've never worked with that I would like to work with? Oh, well, there's so many. Who would I... An actor I'd like to work with?

• 1:04:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's good.

• 1:04:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, who would be good for me to partner with?

• 1:04:50Josh Horowitz?

  We're a filmmaker. Anything that jumps to mind?

• 1:04:52Speaker 02

  Well, there's dozens. Yeah, Scorsese. Give me a call.

• 1:05:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, there's lots of people I'd love to work with. Wes Anderson, that'd be an interesting combo. You know, actors... Ryan Gosling I'd like to work with. I think he's hilariously funny.

• 1:05:19Josh Horowitz?

  He is.

• 1:05:20Speaker 02

  Ryan Gosling, isn't he?

• 1:05:21Josh Horowitz?

  It's almost annoying someone that handsome has such good comic timing.

• 1:05:25Speaker 02

  He's a great actor, but he's screamingly funny. He's so good at comedy. And yeah, I could play his alcoholic uncle.

• 1:05:37Speaker 02

  I don't know.

• 1:05:39Josh Horowitz?

  I'm somewhat surprised with all these movie musicals. Do they not come calling? Is that of interest to you, to be in any of these giant, ginormous cash cow movie musicals that they're making every other month or something?

• 1:05:51Speaker 02

  Well, I don't know if they're cash cows. What was it? Wicked? There was a moment where I was... You know, the wizard role was an idea. But then it was a conflict with something I was doing. So that might have been, but it really didn't get very far. But no, no one is asking me.

• 1:06:18Speaker 02

  I'm sort of, I'm sort of retired from musicals anyway. I mean, I, you know, I can get through, you know, Dick's the Musical, or, you know, or, yeah, I had to sing in an animated, this animated film. Titus Burches and I played these, called Spellbound, we did for Netflix. Yeah, it was Netflix. And we were these two oracles. The oracle of the sun and the oracle of the moon. Yeah.

• 1:06:45Speaker 02

  But they, they wrote it like they were a gay couple. You know? So, anyway, we had a song in that, Alan Menken song. No, I just, no, I don't know. It don't, yeah, what can I say?

• 1:06:58Josh Horowitz?

  You're a busy man. Mid-century modern's keeping you busy.

• 1:07:01Speaker 02

  Well, yeah, I hope it will keep me busy for a while, but we'll see what happens.

• 1:07:07Josh Horowitz?

  All right, we're gonna end with this. The happy, sad, confused, profoundly random questions for you, Nathan. These are more rapid fire. Just tell me, first thing that comes to mind. Are you a dog or a cat person?

• 1:07:15Speaker 02

  Dog.

• 1:07:17Josh Horowitz?

  Correct answer, yes. Do you collect anything?

• 1:07:23Speaker 02

  Just regrets.

• 1:07:33Josh Horowitz?

  What's the wallpaper on your phone?

• 1:07:37Speaker 02

  Oh, it's just the, it is just whatever that, you know, the, the blue orb?

• 1:07:44Josh Horowitz?

  Is that the Earth?

• 1:07:45Speaker 02

  The Earth? Yeah. I think it's that way. It's just black and the blue. I had a, I had a, there was a picture of this, we, my husband and I, during the pandemic, we rescued two dogs. One was a, an old, much older dog named Bernadette, who, who was a beagle. And, and I, and then a younger dog, Woody, who was a, you know, a mix, and just a, he was just about 10 months old. And we, so, and I didn't want two dogs, but my husband said, we have to take this older dog. Because no one will want her because she's old, and she's 10 years old, and, you know, and I, and I, you know, so I gave in.

• 1:08:28Speaker 02

  And of course, she and I, you know, bonded profoundly. I'm now gonna cry again.

• 1:08:37Speaker 02

  So, so I put her picture on my phone. But every time I opened up my phone, I would start crying. So I said, "I can't." So, because she, we did, you know, she, we only had her for four years. But she was, she was the greatest, sweetest dog. Yeah.

• 1:08:54Josh Horowitz?

  Uh, who's the last actor you were mistaken for?

• 1:08:58Speaker 02

  Last actor I was mistaken for?

• 1:09:00Josh Horowitz?

  Does that ever happen?

• 1:09:01Speaker 02

  Oh, sure. Um, oh, you know, my, I always go to, you know, Jason Alexander, but, um, no, I don't, I know, um, who did, yeah. It doesn't, yeah, that doesn't happen very often.

• 1:09:15Josh Horowitz?

  There's only one Nathan Lane.

• 1:09:16Speaker 02

  Ah, well, aren't you sweet?

• 1:09:19Josh Horowitz?

  What's the worst note a director has ever given you?

• 1:09:22Speaker 02

  Um, uh, um.

• 1:09:28Speaker 02

  You know, "Do it better."

• 1:09:33Speaker 02

  It's worse when they don't say anything. You just keep doing it over and over again, like, you know, "What exactly are we looking for?"

• 1:09:43Speaker 02

  But, um, yeah, yeah, no, I know, that's a, yeah, I think I've seen you ask this question before. It is like a horrible thing, uh, what directors say or don't say, or, you know, um, yeah.

• 1:09:57Josh Horowitz?

  And in the spirit of Happy Second Fused, who's an actor, you see them on screen. It always makes you happy. You're in a better mood.

• 1:10:05Josh Horowitz?

  Actor on screen, I'm happier because this person's on screen.

• 1:10:09Speaker 02

  Oh, well, that's a lot, a lot of people. Um, always makes me happy?

• 1:10:16Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, you're in a good mood.

• 1:10:17Speaker 02

  Okay, um, uh, um, Donald O'Connor.

• 1:10:21Josh Horowitz?

  Great, great, love it. A movie that makes you sad, makes you cry, makes you tear up, always.

• 1:10:29Speaker 02

  A movie that makes me sad?

• 1:10:30Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:32Speaker 02

  Oh, God, um.

• 1:10:38Speaker 02

  Oh, Jesus. That's, yeah, well.

• 1:10:43Speaker 02

  What? Mousetrap?

• 1:10:48Josh Horowitz?

  Always a comedian in the audience.

• 1:10:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, mousetrap. Yeah, people always call it that. Mouse Hunt.

• 1:10:53Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 1:10:54Speaker 02

  It was called Mouse Hunt. Mouse Hunt is, was, uh, was, I, became like a cult film for kids who saw it at the time. Cause it was like a strange, it was like a Coen Brothers movie for children. And, it was very dark. And, and, uh, and I found that, uh, so certain, you know, people who had seen it as children loved it and would bring it up to me. And also, I found Russian cab drivers loved it. You know, you would, there would be a guy, you know, putting on deodorant in the, in front of the cab, and he would turn around and say, "Were you in the mouse movie?"

• 1:11:32Speaker 02

  And I would say, "Yeah." And he would say, "This movie's funniest movie ever made." "You trying to get rid of mouse for two hours."

• 1:11:47Speaker 02

  "Funny, funny, you're, this, this is very good movie." Um, yeah, well, what's the saddest, I don't know, the, the, the one that comes to mind was Manchester by the Sea.

• 1:12:01Josh Horowitz?

  That's a sad movie. That scene, the two of them, to the end, oh my god.

• 1:12:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, that, it's a killer.

• 1:12:08Josh Horowitz?

  No more tears tonight, and a food-

• 1:12:09Speaker 02

  Well, Kenny Lannigan, you know, brilliant.

• 1:12:12Josh Horowitz?

  And a food that makes you confused. You don't get it. Why do people eat that?

• 1:12:16Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 1:12:19Speaker 02

  Okay, a food that makes you confused.

• 1:12:26Speaker 02

  Oh, well, that's good. That's such a good question.

• 1:12:33Speaker 02

  Um, Marzipan.

• 1:12:39Josh Horowitz?

  Great.

• 1:12:41Josh Horowitz?

  What's the point? What are they doing?

• 1:12:43Speaker 02

  What are they doing with that?

• 1:12:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's just, looks like old candles melted together. Here, eat this.

• 1:12:54Speaker 02

  That'll hold you.

• 1:12:56Josh Horowitz?

  Well, he's returning to Broadway in What's Up with Marzipan, starring Nathan Lane, coming soon.

• 1:13:01Speaker 02

  What's Up with Marzipan?

• 1:13:05Josh Horowitz?

  This has been such a delight, sir. You're always amazing, no matter what kind of genre you're in. It's great to see you in something like mid-century modern, which is gonna make a lot of people very happy. It drops on Hulu, March 28th. Check it out. I'm sorry for the tears. I didn't mean it, but thank you for being so open. New York, give it up one more time for the great Nathan Lane, everybody.

• 1:13:26Speaker 02

  Thank you. Thanks very much.

• 1:13:34Speaker 03

  And so ends another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. Remember to review, rate, and subscribe to this show on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm a big podcast person. I'm Daisy Ridley, and I definitely wasn't prepared to do this by Josh.

• 1:13:53Speaker 06

  You've got your favorite blanket, a freshly poured drink, and a cold case burning a hole in your streaming queue. You're not just watching true crime, you're running the investigation from the comfort of your couch. Welcome to Murder She Watched, the podcast where we recap, dissect, and slightly overanalyze some of the best and craziest true crime documentaries on our favorite streamers. Did the spouse do it? Why is the shady neighbor wearing leather gloves in July? Why did this guy agree to be interviewed in this documentary? We ask the tough questions that you're often just screaming at your TV. So every week, we break down the twists, red herrings, and absurd documentaries that have kept you up all night.

• 1:14:37Speaker 06

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