Uniswap's Wallet Details with Callil Capuozzo, Design Lead at Uniswap Labs

Callil Capuozzo is the VP of Design at Uniswap Labs. Uniswap recently unveiled their brand new mobile app; and we’re going to explore that here today, along with asking about the long-term vision of Uniswap Wallet, and how Uniswap Labs plans to support and develop it! ------ 📣 RhinoFi | Makes DeFi Frictionless https://bankless.cc/rhino ------ 🚀 JOIN BANKLESS PREMIUM: https://newsletter.banklesshq.com/subscribe ------ BANKLESS SPONSOR TOOLS: ⚖️ ARBITRUM | SCALING ETHEREUM https://bankless.cc/Arbitrum 🐙KRAKEN | MOST-TRUSTED CRYPTO EXCHANGE https://bankless.cc/kraken 🦄UNISWAP | ON-CHAIN MARKETPLACE https://bankless.cc/uniswap 👻 PHANTOM | #1 SOLANA WALLET https://bankless.cc/phantom-waitlist 🦊METAMASK LEARN | HELPFUL WEB3 RESOURCE https://bankless.cc/MetaMask 🚁 EARNIFI | CLAIM YOUR UNCLAIMED AIRDROPS https://bankless.cc/earnifi ------ Timestamps: 0:00 Intro 6:00 Callil's Background 12:28 Design in Crypto 16:45 Uniswap Labs 18:00 Why Wallet? 19:25 Future of Crypto Wallets 23:30 Apple Gatekeeping 34:12 Uniswap Wallet Demo 48:20 Uniswap Wallet Roadmap 51:05 What Else is Uniswap Labs Building? 53:30 Smart Contract Wallets 1:00:25 Closing & Disclosures ------ Resources: Callil Capuozzo https://twitter.com/_callil Uniswap Wallet https://twitter.com/Uniswap/status/1631691330031169537 ----- Not financial or tax advice. This channel is strictly educational and is not investment advice or a solicitation to buy or sell any assets or to make any financial decisions. This video is not tax advice. Talk to your accountant. Do your own research. Disclosure. From time-to-time I may add links in this newsletter to products I use. I may receive commission if you make a purchase through one of these links. Additionally, the Bankless writers hold crypto assets. See our investment disclosures here: https://www.bankless.com/disclosures

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Ryan Sean Adams?

  This out on the App Store?

• 0:01David Hoffman?

  App has been a big old bully.

• 0:03Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, what the heck? So we're gonna talk about that today. Who do we have on and what are we discussing?

• 0:08David Hoffman?

  We are talking to Kilil Kapuzo, who is the VP of Design at Uniswap Labs. And a while ago, I was meeting up with Hayden when I moved here, moved to New York, and he kind of just gave me a little bit of the alpha about what they were working on over at Uniswap. And this is one of the products that they've been working on for a very long time and that they think that they can do better than the rest of the market. Of course, they think that. So we're gonna unpack this, like what about the Uniswap wallet is so magical? And why is Uniswap, of all orgs, Uniswap Labs stepping into the world of the wallet game? Because that wallet game is very, very hot. One of the big themes of ETH Denver is the wallets.

• 0:49David Hoffman?

  Like ERC 4337 is deployed to Ethereum, Xerion came out with a smart contract, or Xerion came out with a browser extension.

• 0:57Ryan Sean Adams?

  Did they?

• 0:57David Hoffman?

  Wallet. Oh, yeah, that's the other. Yeah. So like wallets as a subject was a very big part of ETH Denver. And this is one of the bigger announcements in ETH Denver. So to bring ETH Denver a little bit to the Bankless listener, we're bringing one of the bigger announcements out of ETH Denver to the state of the nation today.

• 1:11Ryan Sean Adams?

  That's gonna be fun to talk about this. Guys, before we get in, a few disclaimers. Number one, Uniswap is a current Bankless sponsor. We thank them for that. We also hold some uni tokens from way back. You can see all of our disclosures at bankless.com/disclosures and also the wallet at bankless.eth. You can always access that. Also, want to give a special shout out to our sponsor, Kraken. Kraken is just a phenomenal exchange. It's the exchange that didn't fail you back in 2022. Okay, remember that? They've been serving customers since the early days of crypto and continue to do so. Our recommended exchange for 2023. Go check them out. We will be right back. But before we do, we want to thank the sponsors that made this episode possible.

• 1:54David Hoffman?

  Kraken has been a leader in the crypto industry for the last 12 years. Dedicated to accelerating the global adoption of crypto, Kraken puts an emphasis on security, transparency, and client support, which is why over 9 million clients have come to love Kraken's products. Whether you're a beginner or a pro, the Kraken UX is simple, intuitive, and frictionless, making the Kraken app a great place for all to get involved and learn about crypto. For those with experience, the redesigned Kraken Pro app and web experience is completely customizable to your trading needs, integrating key trading features into one seamless interface. Kraken has a 24/7, 365 client support team that is globally recognized. Kraken support is available wherever, whenever you need them, by phone, chat, or email. And for all of you NFT-ers out there,

• 2:38David Hoffman?

  the brand-new Kraken NFT beta platform gives you the best NFT trading experience possible: rarity rankings, no gas fees, and the ability to buy an NFT straight with cash. Does your crypto exchange prioritize its customers the way that Kraken does? And if not, sign up with Kraken at kraken.com/bankless. Learning about crypto is hard, until now. Introducing Metamask Learn, an open educational platform about crypto, Web3, self-custody, wallet management, and all the other topics needed to onboard people into this crazy world of crypto. Metamask Learn is an interactive platform, with each lesson offering a simulation for the task at hand, giving you actual, practical experience for navigating Web3. The purpose of Metamask Learn is to teach people the basics of self-custody and wallet security

• 3:23David Hoffman?

  in a safe environment. And while Metamask Learn always takes the time to define Web3-specific vocabulary, it is still a jargon-free experience for the crypto-curious user. Friendly, not scary. Metamask Learn is available in 10 languages, with more to be added soon, and it's meant to cater to a global Web3 audience. So, are you tired of having to explain crypto concepts to your friends? Go to learn.metamask.io and add Metamask Learn to your guides to get onboarded into the world of Web3. Arbitrum One is pioneering the world of secure Ethereum scalability and is continuing to accelerate the Web3 landscape. Hundreds of projects have already deployed on Arbitrum One, producing flourishing DeFi and NFT ecosystems. With the recent addition of Arbitrum Nova,

• 4:05David Hoffman?

  gaming and social dApps like Reddit are also now calling Arbitrum home. Both Arbitrum One and Nova leverage the security and decentralization of Ethereum and provide a builder experience that's intuitive, familiar, and fully EVM compatible. On Arbitrum, both builders and users will experience faster transaction speeds with significantly lower gas fees. With Arbitrum's recent migration to Arbitrum Nitro, it's also now 10 times faster than before. Visit arbitrum.io, where you can join the community, dive into the developer docs, bridge your assets, and start building your first app. With Arbitrum, experience Web3 development the way it was meant to be: secure, fast, cheap, and friction-free.

• 4:47Ryan Sean Adams?

  Here, exploring the intricacies of the Uniswap wallet with Cal, who is the VP of Design at Uniswap Labs. He's going to tell us what Uniswap Labs is in a minute. But Uniswap has recently unveiled their brand-new mobile app. We're going to explore that today. We're going to talk about Apple and the lengths it's taken. It's still a TBD on getting this across the finish line and approved via Tim Cook and the team at Apple to get this in the App Store. We're going to talk all about that. Cal, welcome to Bankless. How are you doing?

• 5:17Speaker 02

  Great, thanks. Thanks. Great to be here. Been a longtime listener, you know, to the Bankless nation.

• 5:23Ryan Sean Adams?

  You know what? We've been longtime users of Uniswap, the little app you guys helped build. And I understand, Cal, coming to this, I was like, hmm, we should look up Cal. Like, what's his background? He's never been on Bankless. Somebody called you the Johnny Ive of crypto, okay? And for those not familiar, I said this to David. He was like, who's Johnny Ive? I'm like, Johnny Ive, the guy who did this phone thing that's in your hand, the iPhone, like, all of these sleek designs in the early days. Because I understand, Cal, that you were employee number two, something like this, at Uniswap, and responsible for the design, the aesthetic, the simplicity of that original Uniswap app. Can you tell us a little bit about your story, how you got involved in Uniswap, and, you know, meeting Hayden and all of these things?

• 6:08Speaker 02

  Absolutely, absolutely. Well, that's very high praise. You know, I've got a few more years to go. Maybe a lot, a lot more to be that. But yeah, but I'll tell you a little of the background. So I've known Hayden for a long time. Basically, we grew up together. Our families knew each other back, back when we were little kids. So it's been a long time. My background is in design. You know, I went to school for industrial design and then after that worked in the tech industry. Doing like new and experimental products. And, you know, during that time, I was kind of seeing around me. You know, the benefits and drawbacks of these tech giants we know today, right? And I was also seeing, you know, friends of mine that I knew from art school, from design school,

• 6:51Speaker 02

  who are trying to make a living, you know, expressing themselves on the platforms that these tech giants kind of had. And I got started to get really interested in sort of questioning like, why is it that, you know, my friend who's making the most amazing, you know, paintings or like, a really cool chair, why do they have to like post that work up for likes, right? Why is that the mechanism that they need to use to get exposure? So that's sort of what started my like, you know, questioning these systems. And I started to look for, for things out in the world that sort of were starting to, to, to think about that. And so my first sort of touch point for, for crypto, it wasn't really crypto, it's more about decentralized publishing, which we, today we know as like IPFest and things like Blue Sky and kind of more the social side of things.

• 7:34Speaker 02

  But very quickly, sort of like those worlds started to merge, right? And Hayden and I reconnected, you know, after we had both done our things and our careers at a meetup in New York City for NYC Mesh, which is like a community owned mesh networking ISP. And he showed me the first prototype of what Uniswap would become, which you should all look up, by the way. It's on a blog post that we have. It's like this amazing blue, flying unicorn crazy site. Can we find that? How would we find that? So look up the Uniswap blog, look up the like story of Uniswap. There's one that's like our history. You can probably just search like Uniswap history blog and scroll a little bit down. There's a picture of that first site online. I think I'm finding it here. A short history of Uniswap. Yes, exactly. Yep. Was this it?

• 8:18David Hoffman?

  I remember that one.

• 8:19Speaker 02

  Yep. No dude, I don't remember this.

• 8:22David Hoffman?

  Oh, I remember that. That's a throwback. I remember that neon text. Yeah.

• 8:26Speaker 02

  Yeah. So little, so this is the, the first little history is that Hayden is really the first. Johnny Ive. The pre Johnny Ive, really. But Hayden was the first Uniswap designer, you know, in addition to me. He was, he was the first of everything. But you know, in a lot of funny ways, like the ethos and like the spirit of Uniswap here, you know, that's what we tried to bring.

• 8:46Ryan Sean Adams?

  It's similar vibe. Like you have the unicorn, you have the kind of the funky like neon, the pinks, they use these like unicorn, like colors. It's similar vibe.

• 8:57Speaker 02

  Yeah. And, and you know, I'll be honest with you. When I first saw this, oh yeah, this is also, so another thing to kind of note at the time is that this was what the standard experience for exchanging tokens was, right?

• 9:07Ryan Sean Adams?

  I do remember this.

• 9:08David Hoffman?

  So for the podcast listeners, we are now looking at the infamous Ether Delta, which much more looks like a traditional centralized exchange with a terrible UX UI. But if for those that didn't actually use Ether Delta on chain, it was the worst UX I have ever experienced.

• 9:26Ryan Sean Adams?

  Barely functional.

• 9:27David Hoffman?

  Barely functional. It was like three transactions to get your assets just loaded up, available to trade. And it was, it was if you ever traded on Ether Delta, you probably deserve.

• 9:39Ryan Sean Adams?

  You deserve a PoAP.

• 9:40David Hoffman?

  You were early. You were unequivocally early AF.

• 9:43Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah. What do you deserve? You're an OG. If you, if you know this, you know, you're an OG Ethereum for sure.

• 9:49Speaker 02

  Truly, truly OG. And I think, you know, Hayden's genius in a way is that he recognized how crappy that was, right? Like, not only did he have the awareness to like, you know, go read Vitalik's post, think really deeply about exchange, but also had the awareness to be like, wow, this UX sucks. This is terrible. So, so yeah, to continue the story, like this is, this was the context that we started talking and we, you know, I offered to help. It was very casual. I barely understood it, to be honest with you. And initially we built, yeah, you can keep scrolling a little bit to get to that first UI, I think. Keep going a little bit. Yeah, keep going. It's very long here.

• 10:27Ryan Sean Adams?

  We got shirts. We got a lot of history.

• 10:30Speaker 02

  There's a lot of history, you know, yada, yada, yada. He works, he works at Optimism. That's Hayden. That's Kelvin, yeah.

• 10:38David Hoffman?

  Above and Hayden down below. Yeah, we're going, we're speeding right here.

• 10:41Speaker 02

  Speed right through the history. I love it. I love it.

• 10:44Ryan Sean Adams?

  This is a long.

• 10:45Speaker 02

  Long, long, long.

• 10:46Ryan Sean Adams?

  It's not here.

• 10:47Speaker 02

  Oh, it's not here. Um, I'm trying to think. There, there is an old version online, uh, which will, I'll find some point. You guys can actually search probably V1 Uniswap in Google and I'm sure it'll, it'll come up.

• 10:58Ryan Sean Adams?

  All right, I'll allow you to talk to me for it.

• 11:00Speaker 02

  Cool. Sure, sure. Yeah. So, so yeah, th- those early days, you know, it was very casual and, and, uh, we were just kind of experimenting. And the way we worked together was that, you know, I had a studio a lot like the one I'm sitting in now, Maker Studio kind of vibes. And I was doing some freelance work and some other Ethereum things and, and, you know, here and there over text. And Hayden would come over at, at like late at night and we'd just like jam for hours, honestly. Uh, make, you know, developing what, what we know as like the Swap UI today. And it took a long time. And I think the initial innovation, you know, like I said, design is this kind of iterative thing. Uh, you really have to like throw things at the wall and, and explore. But there are like core sort of ideas that, that you're trying to kind of, uh, shape, right? So there's a notion in design of this idea of like a mental model, right?

• 11:45Speaker 02

  I'm sure you all know what that means, but it's really important when you're doing design work to be giving people a mental model. That's very clear. If you look back at that Ether Delta image, you know, there's a lot of different input boxes. There isn't like a framework for thinking about something. The innovation of the Swap UI is the input output, right? It sounds kind of dumb and simple, but really having that mental model of like, give this, get that, um, wasn't obvious at the time. Um, and it was only through sort of experimentation that we kind of, uh, landed on that end constraint, right? We were me and Hayden, and then eventually, um, a few, a contractor we hired to do development. And then eventually Noah and then, you know, Uniswap team. But it was really a small team in those early days. Um, and that's what drove the constraint as well to get to the simplicity.

• 12:28David Hoffman?

  Yeah, I'm really enjoying this perspective because I think Cal, I'm just learning as we're talking right now about just like what it means to be a designer in the world of crypto. I also appreciate the carpentry tools in the background, a designer across all respects. What your job is, is like, there's this technology, smart contracts, X times Y equals K pricing algorithms, AMMs. And it's your job to get that technology expressed up to the user in a way that like, oh, I'm landing on this page. I've never been here before, app.uniswap or uniswap.app. And then all of the design is actually illustrative and communicative of the smart contracts that underlie these things.

• 13:12David Hoffman?

  And so can you just like make it maybe like walk us through your design brain, your like your thought process as you were learning about? Cause we were all learning about Uniswap all at the same time. Every, I remember the, I remember the two weeks in crypto where Uniswap came on the scene and it was the talk of the town. And everyone was trying to figure out why. And it was really that one very, very elegant pricing curve. It was the like a, it was the X times Y equals K pricing model, but then also just the automated market maker design as a whole. Can you talk about as a designer, put us in your designer brain and talk about like your thought process, like what you needed to do to your job, to do your job of allowing these smart contracts to express themselves?

• 13:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, absolutely. And I think you set that up really well because it really is about understanding the smart contract, right? And you know, in those early days, I read the white paper, right? Didn't mean I understood it. I didn't understand deeply the math, right? The curve math, but what I did understand, you know, like also talking with Hayden is started to unpack like the higher level abstractions, right? And you could start to think about when you see the parts of the system that a user touches, those are the moments that are really, really important, right? And as a designer, you start to get a, you know, the more you read, the more you talk to a solidity engineer or people who are working on this stuff. That should be your question, right? Like, what is the moment that a user touches this thing, right?

• 14:34Speaker 02

  And let's talk about, you know, that input box, literally, right? Cause a lot of crypto design, at the end of the day, this is going to sound reductive, but I don't, I actually mean that's kind of in a good way, is a lot of making great form inputs, right? But making intuitive. Sort of ideas and framing input boxes, right, for for users. And then going one level deeper is like abstracting that input, abstracting the level of control that users have out into more mental models that are that are simpler. Right. So if you read the Uniswap white paper, it doesn't describe, you know, two input boxes, right? That's not how it describes it, but it does describe a pool that has two assets. Right. And so like, those are the moments that you have to start to question and think about.

• 15:18Speaker 02

  And the last thing I'll say, just to try to keep it a little brief, is like, the designer's job is to understand a system. And then we are the advocates for users. And we try to reflect people's understanding at the time of the world around them. So that the the patterns we use are best practices. And when I choose an input box in a in a design, and I make it feel like other input boxes that you see on the web, what I'm doing is giving people that little handhold to hold on to, so that they can take the things they've learned in technology and bring it to a new system. Right. And that's really the designer's job is knowing when to give people, make people comfortable, give them handholds of things that look familiar and recognizable,

• 16:02Speaker 02

  and when to push them a little farther into new systems.

• 16:05Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah.

• 16:06David Hoffman?

  Yeah.

• 16:07Ryan Sean Adams?

  I I know one of my takes on this when I first understood Uniswap was like, wow, this reminds me of Google, the simplicity of Google. And like from the days of of sort of the early web where we had like interfaces that looked like this, like this is AltaVista, like back in the 90s.

• 16:21David Hoffman?

  AltaVista, Ether, Delta.

• 16:23Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, exactly. It's like, and this is the Ether Delta, basically. And what did Google do? This was one of their first interfaces from 1999, one simple search box. And that's kind of the level of abstraction that the, you know, the Uniswap interface provided. So, you know, well done, Mr. Johnny Ive. That's a fantastic way to abstract the design here. Yeah, okay, so so Uniswap is doing a wallet. And we should say this is coming from Uniswap Labs, which, as we understand, is a separate entity. It is not the same as the protocol. So there's the protocol, which is basically smart contracts and a uni token that is a separate thing.

• 17:03Ryan Sean Adams?

  And then there's this company, like a US-based company called Uniswap Labs that is building, building all sorts of crypto tooling, some of which is related to the protocol, some of which is not. And this wallet is coming out of that company of, of toolmakers. Is that correct? That's what Uniswap Labs is?

• 17:21Speaker 02

  That's correct. Yeah. And you know, maybe this is a little too strong, but to continue the analogy, you know, this way we see it is like, Google built on HTTP, right? And TCP IP, they built on protocols and, and what they did was like index that protocol, right? That's what that UI was made, was made for it to do, right? And like, we see Uniswap Labs' role as like building these great consumer experiences on top of these, you know, the Uniswap protocol and other things, right? In the wallet today, we support ENS, right? We're taking advantage of this open platform that, that we can build on to do more. Yeah.

• 17:54Ryan Sean Adams?

  Really cool. So tell us, why a wallet? Why did you go down this path? Why did, why did you have the odd, we have wallets in crypto.

• 18:03Speaker 02

  I also have a lot. I also have wallets.

• 18:07Ryan Sean Adams?

  Tell us why a wallet?

• 18:08Speaker 02

  Yeah. Why wallet? Well, I mean, the, the story is fairly simple. You know, at the end of the day, basically because we built this interface that, that was very simple, we found growth, right? We found product market fit for that specific tool. And what we started to hear from users is all of the pain points of using crypto today. So what happens on many, if, if any of you out there listening have worked at, you know, DAP companies, I'm sure what you've found is that the number one thing for customer support is wallet pain points. So Uniswap Labs, Uniswap, what we hear most often is the problems that users have, not with the protocol, not with the app, but with the wallets themselves.

• 18:50Speaker 02

  So for the past few years, Hayden and I have always wanted to solve this, right? We always felt like, oh man, like all these problems that, you know, a lot of this has been solved today, but back in the day, like tokens not appearing in your, in your wallet after you swap them. Like, that's ridiculous. That is so simple, right? But that was a big pain point and continues actually to be for many people. And so we knew these problems existed. We knew that we could do great UX, you know, from our experience in, in the, on the app. And we thought that we are like no better prime to be the people, because we understood it, because we know people's pain points, to be delivering a great wallet to people.

• 19:27David Hoffman?

  So Cal, I think the question that people all have, that I certainly have, is that in what ways is Uniswap innovating on the wallet, on the wallet landscape? Well, like, where are the pain points that Uniswap is trying to smooth over? So if, if we had Ether Delta and then we had Uniswap on the AMM and you fix that problem, are you, is that, or is that the same mental model that we should apply here? Like, if the current landscape of wallets is Ether Delta, where are we going? Where's the future of UX going inside it? And how is Uniswap leading us there?

• 19:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's, that's a great question. And I think the day, just to caveat this to say, like, where we are today with wallets is a lot better than where we were with, with decentralized exchanges back then. But we, you know, Uniswap Labs wants to be in that conversation because we have, you know, a world-class protocol, the engineering team, who can innovate on, you know, smart contract wallets and safes and all this kind of stuff. And we really want to be in that conversation because we think we have something to add. Yeah, on the UX side, you know, so there's a bunch of things we're doing in our wallet that some other people do, but we think we deliver as like a great package, especially for like swapping users specifically. Things like, you know, showing assets across all chains instantly, right? Or all the chains that Uniswap supports instantly, making that data really reliable and robust and accurate.

• 20:45Speaker 02

  You know, doing push notifications that are real time after swaps so that you are confident about the swap that you're actually doing in your wallet. And making a onboarding kind of process and a backup process that, you know, if you really don't care about it, you don't have to see a seed phrase ever, right? You can just rely on the system that we, we kind of have built that's super secure and very safe to get on board and get started swapping.

• 21:11David Hoffman?

  Wait, what is that system?

• 21:13Speaker 02

  Basically, when you get started, you know, you can back up to iCloud. In addition to backing up on a paper, you know, you know, backing your seed phrase on paper. So you can kind of choose, pick and choose. And, you know, these days, I am still kind of a privacy and security maxi. And I don't necessarily like recommend that everybody should be backing stuff up to iCloud. It's really a user should choose that. But if you're just getting started in crypto, You know, for most people who are not super tech literate, who are just getting started, we should be offering things like this to, yeah.

• 21:47Ryan Sean Adams?

  It's better than using your seed phrase, like losing your seed phrase, like which is what a crypto can do. So if you, if you don't feel comfortable maintaining custody of that, then maybe you have to do that. I will remind folks that, of course, that Apple iCloud, because I just looked into this, it's not end to end encrypted. So that means it is encrypted, but Apple has the keys as well. So they could, if they wanted to, they could kind of go in there and yoink your funds.

• 22:18Speaker 02

  One thing we've done to like help with this is we've actually gave it, gave users additional level of security on top of just iCloud. So when you do an iCloud backup, you actually have to set a personal passphrase on the backup, right? So iCloud, Apple would have to, you know, somehow get that personal passphrase to even unlock the account.

• 22:39Ryan Sean Adams?

  So you're encrypting it before you back it up in iCloud?

• 22:42Speaker 02

  Correct, correct.

• 22:43Ryan Sean Adams?

  Oh, that's smarter. Okay. So that's better.

• 22:45Speaker 02

  Yeah. So we've really, like, like I said, like, our team is like, really, really careful and very specific when we offer things like this. We're not YOLOing, you know, at times it means that we're like, still, you know, like, doing, you know, we're still a little maybe like behind the pure, pure meta of like 4437, right? Exactly. For example, but we're really, really particular and careful to make sure that the tools we're giving people are a truly like thankless experience, right? That we're not putting people into a position that would compromise security if another part of the system was compromised.

• 23:18Ryan Sean Adams?

  We're definitely going to talk about 4337, smart contract wallets and that sort of thing. We're also, we want a demo of this in a few minutes. But before we get there, I want to ask, we were just talking about iCloud. Can, let's talk about Apple for a minute. Okay. So I woke up to this a little bit. I was like, not doing crypto things all weekend, which is unusual for me. But on Monday, I woke up to some stories I was seeing, and I'd heard this by, you know, through the rumor mill, et cetera, that Apple was blocking, is actively kind of blocking Uniswap from launching its self custodial wallet. And really, that the Uniswap team had been given no reason. And my immediate reaction to that is like, assuming that's true, we can kind of like validate

• 24:00Ryan Sean Adams?

  that with you, maybe, maybe today is like, man, I'm so tired of our technical overlords gatekeeping the internet. Like, who are you, Tim Cook or Apple, to say that this specific self custodial wallet is okay? And this is not, right? And I'm wondering if that is indeed a true story. Has Apple been actively blocking Uniswap from deploying its wallet? Because as I understand it, going into this conversation, you cannot go into the Apple iOS Store and download it. There is maybe a test flight link that we can talk about in a minute, but they've been blocking you. It's not because the app's not ready. It's because you just haven't been able to get through the gatekeepers. Can you tell us about this?

• 24:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, happy to. Yeah, so you're right. That's where we're at. It's a test flight right now. I would say the way to frame it is that we're in dialogue with Apple. This, you know, it's not a no go, no go, like sort of blocked, purely blocked thing. It's a conversation that we're having. And we also understand that many other, you know, DAP developers in the space have also run into similar issues with Apple. And the kind of like phrase that I've been using is it almost feels like we're like playing by a rulebook that we can't read, right? And that's like a pretty tough place to be in as an organization, you know, a company that's investing money in building this, you know, investing people's time in this kind of stuff, right? And so it's definitely reminded us

• 25:28Speaker 02

  as an organization, you know, on the positive side, like why we got into this in the first place, you know, why we're building on open platforms, open protocols, you know, things without this kind of gatekeeper in the way. I think, you know, I am optimistic about this. I hope that Apple kind of sees the light. I think that Uniswap, as an example, and other companies out there are examples of like great, safe crypto experiences, right? Safe insecure crypto experiences. And that's kind of why, you know, in addition to being a great developing platform, that's why we want to be on the Apple App Store, right? Is because we're actually aligned with their goal of keeping users safe, right? We have token warnings in the app that don't block but warn you. We have great, you know, backups

• 26:11Speaker 02

  and recovery. We like give you access to, you know, pretty above board sort of things. And so we want to be in that, playing in that world. And we just hope that Apple sees it that way as well. So far, we'll see.

• 26:24David Hoffman?

  I think there's two different conversations here about apps in the Apple Store as it relates to crypto. Cal, you said, playing by a rulebook that you can't read. My intuition, but also that Apple is in conversations with you guys. So it's not like things are frozen or bad. And it kind of just seems like my intuition here is that Apple is probably also confused and learning how to do this. Right? Like, okay, crypto apps, unprecedented amount of crypto scams, new risk dependencies that they've never ever had to like meaningfully thought of. And then there's also things like, okay, how does Apple charge this 30% tax? And I think there's probably two routes here. Like, one, there might be some set of features that Apple's like, hey, we want 30%.

• 27:06David Hoffman?

  And then there's another set of features where like, hey, we need to make sure it's legit and not a scam and not like FTX. And what is our responsibilities here? Is that, would you say that that's a fair summary of the problem set here?

• 27:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think that's exactly right, basically. And it's true, you know, this is, it is a new industry. And just understanding like the mechanisms of Apple and the review team, you know, their distributed team. They have a lot of different people who review apps and it's complicated, you know, I have to give it to them like it's a complicated world. That being said, it's that their application of their system is very, very inconsistent.

• 27:41David Hoffman?

  Okay, which of the, maybe the answer is both, which of the features inside of the Uniswap wallet do you think has offended Apple?

• 27:50Speaker 02

  Great question.

• 27:51David Hoffman?

  It's the unicorn, isn't it?

• 27:53Speaker 02

  It's the unicorn. That's right. Yeah. I mean, look, like, to be honest, we actually, like, this is really honest. Like, we don't exactly know which specific issue it is, right? We get through this whole process, which, to be honest, has been months. We've gotten actually different answers almost every time. And it seems like the answers they are giving are changing, you know, as they get more information, as they learn more. But also, it's confusing. Yeah.

• 28:21David Hoffman?

  Okay, so just put us in the perspective of Uniswap as it's going through this. When you guys get an answer back from Apple, I don't know what it's like to push an app through test flight or whatnot. Sometimes if I have a support ticket, like, it's a different person answering the support ticket. And so like, it's just chaotic just because it's a different person. How coherent is this relationship?

• 28:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, um, without like going into too many details, that is, that is something that has happened. You know, it's, it, you don't always talk to the same person. Um, but I will say at this point, you know, again, not to go too far into it. I think we are now at a point where we're having more consistent conversations. So, um, we really hope to work through it soon. Yeah.

• 28:58Ryan Sean Adams?

  Why isn't guys, isn't this whole thing kind of stupid? I'm like, I'm sorry, I just like on the, on the actual public internet, you can deploy things without going through support tickets and asking for somebody's permission, who has to take the time to understand the industry to figure out if this is a scam or not. Like, I'm just kind of sad that we've gotten to this point where the computers that we hold in our pockets are still so gate-kept. It is not the free open internet. This is not TCP IP. This is the Apple App Store, whose governance layer is Apple shareholders, essentially. And like, that's not the way it should be. Uh, I, this is just a rant, nothing anyone could solve.

• 29:42Ryan Sean Adams?

  But we're hearing this from a lot of, um, I, I think crypto developers and organizations trying to go through the App Store, that like things have really cooled post 2022 and FTX. Like that has put a pause where people are, everything in crypto must be a scam because of FTX. And because of, uh, you know, uh, Do- Doquan and, and Luna and Terra. And I think that's put a chill on it. And then they also, they don't know what their, their business model is. And so they're just kind of in the state of, of not knowing what to do. And so they're by default freezing everything. Is that consistent?

• 30:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, and maybe one more thing to add there too, is not only, you know, is it confusing? We have also seen here and there, you know, scam apps make it through, right? So not only, you know, is the system that we're talking about, you know, a little bit non-transparent, it's hard to understand the rules, but even with that level of gatekeeping, even with the systems in place, there are still harmful things making it through. And I think that's an example of when the system starts to fail and, and part of, you know, why we're all working in this industry. Yeah.

• 30:45David Hoffman?

  So what Bankless listeners don't see, Cal, is that you've actually logged into this Zoom here with your phone. And so we are going to take a peek at the actual Uniswap wallet in a hot second as soon as we come back from these fantastic sponsors that make this show possible. Right. Uniswap is the largest on-chain marketplace for self-custody digital assets. Uniswap is, of course, a decentralized exchange, but you know this because you've been listening to Bankless. But did you know that the Uniswap web app has a shiny new fiat on-ramp? Now you could go directly from fiat in your bank to tokens in DeFi inside of Uniswap. Not only that, but Polygon, Arbitrum, and Optimism Layer 2s are supported right out of the gate. But that's just DeFi.

• 31:28David Hoffman?

  Uniswap is also an NFT aggregator, letting you find more listings for the best prices across the NFT world. With Uniswap, you can sweep floors on multiple NFTs, and Uniswap's universal router will optimize your gas fees for you. Uniswap is making it as easy as possible to go from bank account to bankless assets across Ethereum. And we couldn't be more thankful for having them as a sponsor. So go to app.uniswap.org today to buy, sell, or swap tokens and NFTs. The Phantom Wallet is coming to Ethereum. The number one wallet on Solana is bringing its millions of users and beloved UX to Ethereum and Polygon. If you haven't used Phantom before, you've been missing out. Phantom was one of the first wallets to pioneer Solana staking inside the wallet,

• 32:12David Hoffman?

  and will be offering similar staking features for Ethereum and Polygon. But that's just staking. Phantom is also the best home for your NFTs. Phantom has a complete set of features to optimize your NFT experience. Pin your favorites, hide your uglies, burn the spam, and also manage your NFT sale listings from inside the wallet. Phantom is, of course, a multi-chain wallet, but it makes chain management easy, displaying your transactions in a human-readable format with automatic warnings for malicious transactions or phishing websites. Phantom has already saved over 20,000 users from getting scammed or hacked. So get on the Phantom waitlist and be one of the first to access the multi-chain beta. There's a link in the show notes, or you can go to phantom.app/waitlist to get access in late February.

• 32:54David Hoffman?

  Hey Bankless Nation. If you're listening to this, it's because you're on the free Bankless RSS feed. Did you know that there's an ad-free version of Bankless that comes with the Bankless Premium subscription? No ads, just straight to the content. But that's just one of many things that a premium subscription gets you. There's also the Token Report, a monthly bullish, bearish, neutral report on the hottest tokens of the month. And the regular updates from the Token Report go into the Token Bible, your first stop shop for every token worth investigating in crypto. Bankless Premium also gets you a 30% discount to the Permissionless Conference, which means it basically just pays for itself. There's also the Airdrop Guide to make sure you don't miss a drop in 2023. But really, the best part about Bankless Premium is hanging out with me, Ryan,

• 33:37David Hoffman?

  and the rest of the Bankless team in the Inner Circle Discord only for premium members. Want the alpha? Check out Ben the Analyst's DGEN pit, where you can ask him questions about the Token Report. Got a question? I've got my own Q&A room for any questions that you might have. At Bankless, we have huge things planned for 2023, including a new website with login with your Ethereum address capabilities. And we're super excited to ship what we are calling Bankless 2.0 Soon TM. So if you want extra help exploring the frontier, subscribe to Bankless Premium. It's under 50 cents a day and provides a wealth of knowledge and support on your journey west. I'll see you in the Discord.

• 34:13David Hoffman?

  All right, and we are back. And we're going to take a peek under the hood of the Uniswap wallet. And I actually downloaded the Uniswap wallet and I put some Ether, some USDC, and also a crypto coven this morning, which is why I bought a coven, if you were following me on Twitter. I think it's great. It's my first pink wallet. Cal, can you really just like walk us through and take us a peek under the hood for us? And show us what this wallet can really do?

• 34:36Speaker 02

  Absolutely. Happy to. So I'm going to be sharing from my phone here. So the thing I'm going to show first is a little bit of the onboarding experience, just because I think it's important. So I'll show this briefly and then actually I have to type a password. So I'm going to stop and then reshare it in a second, but it's worth going through. So one of the key things that happens here when you get started in the wallet is that there's a few options. You can create a new one. You know, this is where you do start with a recovery phrase. You can import an existing one, right? So from any other wallet that you can export a seed phrase from. And you can add a view-only wallet. So if somebody gets their hand on this test flight and you don't feel comfortable with the security, add your view-only wallet. Just paste your public address, your ENS name in. You can see it and experience it before, you know, try before buy sort of thing.

• 35:19Speaker 02

  If you are comfortable, which, you know, we all are at Uniswap, you know, I put my my seed phrase in, all the developers are in, we're like, the the app is done, it's not a beta, you know, it's ready to be launched, we're still just in this thing with Apple, so just that. And then I did want to show this sort of restore from iCloud thing, you know, like I said, it's a a passphrase, but when I do this, um, so essentially it'll detect that I have a backup uh to to to get, so let me just stop here, so I'm gonna stop sharing, put my password in and then uh I'll show you the next, yeah, I'll show you the next screen.

• 35:52Ryan Sean Adams?

  Password?

• 35:54Speaker 02

  You know, uh, if people want to, uh, you know, the OG multi-sig, right?

• 36:02Ryan Sean Adams?

  So you're trusting this to back up your your your stuff to?

• 36:05David Hoffman?

  Yeah, this is a real password, man.

• 36:08Speaker 02

  Right, yes, it's it's uh, it's real, I mean, that's what I said about the iCloud, the security and backup, uh, this sort of, um, you know, I trust.

• 36:16Ryan Sean Adams?

  You you encrypt it before?

• 36:18Speaker 02

  You encrypt it, exactly, so what I'm doing right now is actually, um, using my encrypted, using my passphrase to unencrypt, right, the backup, essentially.

• 36:28Ryan Sean Adams?

  Uh, so you're already logged into, you're already authenticated in iCloud on your phone, and then you're just putting in your own password that only you control.

• 36:36Speaker 02

  Exactly, so here's what's something really cool we do is that we actually auto detect all, uh, addresses that are derived from a seed phrase that have a balance and auto, uh, select them for you, so I can go and continue here, right, you can see iCloud backup, I can add a manual backup, and I can even learn about what a recovery phrase is. Continue, so I'll turn on notifications here, um, and then also turn on Face ID for security, and I'm in.

• 37:04David Hoffman?

  Is so, okay, the Face ID I've seen with other wallets means that the actual, uh, private keys for these wallets is held in this a clear enclave for the phone, is that what's going on here?

• 37:15Speaker 02

  Yep, and, uh, we've done, uh, we've kind of done a really good job, sort of. Lowering, like taking that part of the security model like to a lower part of the stack and and written in Rust, so it's not happening in React Native. Like, the engineering of this thing is really robust and secure, and we're thinking about that detail. You can learn about this, by the way, while it's open source, which is pretty cool, you can learn about how it's built, the whole stack, you can fork it, it's out there. And so whoever's like, if someone's really into it.

• 37:42Ryan Sean Adams?

  We can fork it?

• 37:43Speaker 02

  You know, you gotta do a bunch of some of your own work around the data layer, but you know, it's out there. Same way that's the original.

• 37:51Ryan Sean Adams?

  Let's fork it and see if we can get it into the App Store.

• 37:53David Hoffman?

  What color should our wallet be?

• 37:56Ryan Sean Adams?

  Let's do black.

• 37:56Speaker 02

  Bangless red, red?

• 37:57David Hoffman?

  Yeah. So one, one feature that we taught, didn't talk about, but we definitely have seen is that there you can manage multiple wallets inside the wallet. So this is not, you open up this wallet and you can add more wallets too. And you can, so you can manage multiple wallets all at the same time.

• 38:13Speaker 02

  Right, right. Right now, this, we only support one C phrase, multiple C phrase support coming soon. We just wanted to make sure we're like really good at what we do. So, you know, that will come soon. But off the same phrase, I can now go through these wallets, right? And I can just tap between and it's pretty easy. This is my main, you know, public wallet, my ENS, you guys can look on it, at it. Quickly, we, we really focus on making things swipeable, right? To, to get easy access to, to like all your assets in your wallet. You can just quickly go to the NFTs that you have, view them, you know, look at the latest activity. It's all across Optimism, Arbitrum, Polygon right now. And so all the assets that I have across all those chains are just right there.

• 38:58Ryan Sean Adams?

  What, you have some hex? Cal?

• 39:00Speaker 02

  You didn't see anything. Don't, you know, actually, they, they, they did have some airdrop. I don't know. I just don't, didn't learn it yet.

• 39:09David Hoffman?

  The biggest thing that I noticed standing out here is the little chain indicators below each of the assets. So you have optimistic ETH for Ethereum.

• 39:17Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, that's cool.

• 39:19David Hoffman?

  And then that's got the little red circle. Then you have a normal Ethereum, then also Arbitrum Ethereum. And that's where, when I, I saw this wallet for the first time, that's really the thing that noticed and stood out to me. And as we all know, like, we are moving into the multi-chain future, multi-layer twos. We're already talking about superchains and layer threes. Is there, do you have a plan, Cal, for how you plan to tackle all this stuff?

• 39:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, so the way we think about it, Uniswap is that we love the multi-chain future. We love L2s, especially EVM L2s. We think it is part, a big, big part of the future of all this stuff. And when we think about assets, you know, the ultimate vision is that you should never really have to unless if you, if you don't want to like touch a chain, a network switcher again, right? All apps should be across all chains. You know, it should be seamless, should have the indicator so that you understand the security model you're opting into when you do that. But at the end of the day, you know, that should be available for you. And that's something we're working towards, the multi-chain future.

• 40:23Ryan Sean Adams?

  Can we talk about NFTs? So first of all, swipe over to NFTs, if you will. Show us like what, what are these things? What is that mushroom head thing?

• 40:32Speaker 02

  The mushroom head. All right, this is a Shroomio. You know, tapping on it, pretty, pretty nice. You get a little preview of the image. You'll notice here, there's also a small button that actually shows the floor price of this collection. And you have some details around here. And if I click on that, something we're working on, the next release will have a much more improved version of this. But you actually can explore the collection as well. And so you can go through, find different Shroomios and actually see some details about this collection at the same time.

• 41:00Ryan Sean Adams?

  Now, do you guys offer NFT kind of trading functionality inside of the app right now? Because I know Uniswap Labs is doing something big in the NFT aggregation realm with the company you just bought.

• 41:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's right. So we now have, if you go to the Uniswap web app, we have an NFT tab that is basically a marketplace aggregating all the major NFT marketplaces and getting you great prices for buying and selling NFTs. Right now on the wallet, it's view only. So we don't offer the actual like functionality of the marketplace. You know, maybe one day we can, kind of up in the air, a little bit based on this Apple conversation.

• 41:40David Hoffman?

  Yeah, this is, I'm guessing, going back to the Apple conversation we already had. This is the, the conversation that like Apple would like probably enjoy their 30% take on this one. This is probably, I'm guessing that's the, that, that conversation, is that right?

• 41:53Speaker 02

  Absolutely, absolutely. And I know that it's a broader conversation, like the whole industry is in that same conversation right now.

• 41:58Ryan Sean Adams?

  Right. How does, how does Apple think it can do that 30%? Like, how do they think they can charge 30% tax on NFTs? I don't understand how that's sustainable.

• 42:09Speaker 02

  Great question. And one, one thing that we think about is so just like to zoom out for a second, like what we believe is like, we have to build the best user experience possible so that people love these experiences and then go to Apple and advocate for the access to them, right? Like, it won't only be the company that has, you know, the, and the, the, the leverage with Apple. It'll also be if we can build, you know, great, safe user experiences that people love. That will also ultimately be a big part of the leverage for Apple to start considering this technology as serious.

• 42:42Ryan Sean Adams?

  So user demand. Okay. So can people, Cal, get this right now? There is, I believe, a test flight version of it. So you can't find this in Apple Store right now, in the App Store.

• 42:55Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 42:55Ryan Sean Adams?

  There is some sort of a test flight version. And for the people kind of watching this or listening, are they able to access that? Or is that limited?

• 43:03Speaker 02

  So we'll have a link at the end of this show that you can go and download. It'll be a little, little bit limited. I think the test flight invite will have 100, 100 links on it. But stay tuned.

• 43:12David Hoffman?

  First 100 viewers, first 100 viewers to scan the QR code.

• 43:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, get your QR code thing ready, you know, and basically scan it. But if you follow our Twitter, get on our Discord, we're slowly inviting more. We really want people to be like engaged and give us feedback because we're learning, right? So we're learning about what makes Wild great, what people want to see and what's kind of, you know, a, a, a good thing about this beta program or this, this, sorry, the test flight program is that we have an opportunity to kind of hear from you. And so get on it, grab, grab an invite and message us and teach us what we need to know.

• 43:48David Hoffman?

  Cal just swapped, sold OP for Ether on Optimism Chain. Wow, I can't believe you would do that to the Optimism team.

• 43:57David Hoffman?

  Okay, okay. So you can, you can trade on other Layer 2s and on the Ethereum main chain. You can do that natively in the app. Can you trade from Arbitrum to Optimism or vice versa? Or what about this world?

• 44:09Speaker 02

  Great, great question. Not yet, not yet. That's something we obviously are working on. It would be, we would be foolish not to, but it's something we want to get right the first time, right? We think that crossing and bridging is challenging to do it right. And, you know, down on the wall and tell us if you want it, right? I know that I do. I think that is something that we really believe in and want to bring to it, but we wanted to like, make sure we got the basics of swapping the way they are on the web app down to start. And so that we're starting just with, you know, swapping on each individual chain.

• 44:40David Hoffman?

  Right, because I know, I know of two different decks and bridge aggregator aggregators that would love to be your guys' service provider if the, if you guys were open to that, I'm sure. But this isn't a, an issue about Apple, right? This, that's just a Uniswap tech conversation?

• 44:56Speaker 02

  Yep, exactly, exactly.

• 44:58David Hoffman?

  Okay, cool. A lot of those conversations, that's just like poking around, like, all right, where is Apple coming in here? And then where is actually Ethereum limitations coming in here? What is that? Which one's holding us back? What's the big heart at the top?

• 45:08Speaker 02

  The big heart. So one of the pretty unique features about the wallet is that you can actually start, we're starting to step into a little bit of the social Ethereum world here. And so you'll notice I have two favorite wallets. Does any, do you, either of you have an ENS that I can put in here?

• 45:24David Hoffman?

  David Hoffman dot ETH, brother.

• 45:26Speaker 02

  David Hoffman dot ETH. All right. So this is you. I don't know why that ENS name is not resolving. It should.

• 45:35David Hoffman?

  That's on me. I haven't done that yet.

• 45:37Speaker 02

  Ah, I see. But you can see, I can actually search you, go through and find, you know, your NFTs.

• 45:42David Hoffman?

  Look at those collectibles. Yeah.

• 45:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, pretty beautiful. Look at those bank lists. And I can even go and see the entire collection here, right?

• 45:50David Hoffman?

  So there's no way that, that the sound plays, correct?

• 45:55Speaker 02

  Oh, I don't know.

• 45:55David Hoffman?

  Because that is a music and that is a podcast.

• 45:57Speaker 02

  Not yet. But that's something I know.

• 45:59David Hoffman?

  Feature request, David. Feature request.

• 46:00Speaker 02

  Feature request. And then, you know, let's say I'm curious about the, what you're doing on chain, right? I can see your activity, but you know, I can see the, the crypto company you bought, but I can favorite basically and, and favorite your wallet. And now if I go back to my explore screen, you'll be here for me to have, to have as a tap away. And I can also do that with tokens, right? So if I go to blur, I hit favorite up here, give it a second, okay, back.

• 46:29David Hoffman?

  So that's why Hex is showing up, because you favorited it.

• 46:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, you know, I got all my my D Gen wallet. No, no, it's just we're just showing you on chain data. Yeah. So that's kind of the system that we're setting up and we're kind of like starting to test around favorites and around making a dashboard that reflects the way you use, you know, crypto and you'll see a lot, lot more of this. This is our, you know, MVP first iteration of this. You'll see stuff with NFTs coming soon. You'll see more rich and complex ways of seeing the chain in that form. And then last thing, just to feature wise, you know, we have send and receive. We have a beautiful design for different wallets that pops up. If you, you know, switch around, so depending on the wallet I'm on, it'll actually like theme it.

• 47:14Speaker 02

  And then last thing is we of course support wallet connect, right? So actually, let's see if I go back to this other wallet. I think I don't have any connected, but what will happen is if I connect to a DAP right in that connection, it'll say nine connections, you can manage it. You you can actually have multiple DAP connections across multiple networks at the same time. So you're never, you don't have to change the entire wallet, the way you have to do in Metamask to be connected to a chain. So that reflects our kind of belief in the multi chain future. So.

• 47:45Ryan Sean Adams?

  This is really cool. Can we just, can you, I mean, we need to send this to Apple. Like they need to hear that this is a pretty, pretty sleek user experience and that the Uniswap Labs team is not a bunch of scammers. These guys are legit. They've built a fantastic, useful product and this is a, an ask to Apple to release the app. I think there's a ton of people in the bankless community who actually want this. Yeah, I doubt anyone listens, but they should be.

• 48:18David Hoffman?

  So definitely we got some Apple listeners for sure. Cal, can you just maybe just run us through a bunch? I'm assuming there's like a bunch of small things that you want. Here's a list that I can come up in my head. A like a total, total wallet value chart over time, like features like this. Wait, what else is coming down the pipeline that you can just talk about?

• 48:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, great question, great question. Um, yeah, so of course, like more analytics around assets, you know, uh, for instance, you know, being able to see past buys and sells on a different asset. We want to improve the, the, actually the history a lot more. You know, you don't, we, we don't think you should always have to go to EtherScan if you don't want to. We want to be able to show transactions in a very legible way. And the number one request we've got from early beta testers is a DAP browser. Um, so look out for that soon. And I think, uh, there's some really other really deep, cool stuff that we've been exploring. That aligns with sort of, you know, I think the broader industry's social vision for, uh, for crypto around ENS names and connectivity

• 49:21Speaker 02

  and all that kind of stuff. Uh, but of course we want to do the basics right, uh, soon. So, and then, you know, the last thing too, just mentioned, I know we talked a little bit about this. I don't know how much time we have left, but just the world of smart contract wallets. Kind of little leak, you know, that we haven't said publicly before, but just the first few months of building this wallet, we did build a smart contract wallet as a prototype. And it's not something that we're ready to put out into the world. We want to be a part of the broader four, three, three, seven conversation and like be working with the industry. But just that, that's one of the reasons we really wanted to build this wallet is because we have those protocol engineers in-house who are like top of the top, right? And we have a lot to say about what that future might look like.

• 50:05David Hoffman?

  Right. This was the other main big, um, announcement that happened at ETH Denver at WalletCon was, uh, for ERC four, three, three, seven, not EIP four, three, seven. Was that deployed as a smart contract on Ethereum, which opened up smart contracting enable, uh, capabilities. Cal, is that like that ERC, that smart contract on the layer one that's already deployed? Is that what is related to the future potential Uniswap smart contract wallet? Or is that a different set of innovations that also needs to come down the pipeline?

• 50:32Speaker 02

  Well, I would say that that is, you know, I think Uniswap, you know, the protocol and our involvement with like Ethereum and the, and the dev community. We, we want to be really tight, right? We want to be contributing to that conversation and we want to be contributing to standards. I think that we're, we're not interested in like going and building our own, you know, a little bubble. We, that's why we open source the wallet. That's why we open source. Um, the web app and all the, you know, all the work that we do. And so if, you know, when, when we talk about smart contract wallets or whatever, definitely we would be part of that as well. Yeah.

• 51:04David Hoffman?

  So zooming out, just really quickly, because we started this conversation as like, oh, what Uniswap Labs, service provider on top of, you know, the Uniswap protocol. And we also talked about the design of Ether Delta to where we are today, which the much more elegant design of Uniswap and all the other DEXs. What a little fun fact that we haven't covered in is like the Uniswap UX, the trading interface has been like forked a ton of times because it's seemingly the best kind of way to illustrate a DEX. But Cal, can you just connect us with this product and the rest of what Uniswap Labs is doing? So like now, we kind of have gotten a peek under the hood. We see where you're up to, we see what Uniswap Labs is to, let's zoom all the way back out and go back up to the Uniswap Labs level. What is Uniswap Labs doing?

• 51:49David Hoffman?

  Like, what is the, what is the North Star for Uniswap Labs?

• 51:52Speaker 02

  Totally. So, you know, our, our company mission is to unlock universal ownership and exchange. That's sort of our top level, you know, guiding North Star. For us, that looks like, you know, iterating and, and sort of improving the very core, you know, marketplaces and access to assets, innovating on, you know, the protocol, innovating on other things like the universal router, which gives like users great prices. And, and the cool thing recently has been like integrating our learnings about, sorry, getting a little deep, deep in technical stuff, but integrating learnings about tokens and bringing that into the world of NFTs so that all of a sudden, digital assets are not siloed by, you know, their, their asset type, right?

• 52:33Speaker 02

  I should be able to, yeah, I should be able to swap any, any AR20 for any NFT and vice versa. And this should, this world is the one we believe in. And then alongside that is just, yeah, increasing, you know, access, right? And so that's what the wallet is about for us, you know, in addition to the other things I said about making it easier to use, use Ethereum, easier to use crypto. And we think we have a long way to go. There's a lot, a lot, a lot of innovation that still has to happen, but we want to be a platform that you can come to as a new user, you know, get started in under two minutes and have the same security, you know, not give away your security, right? You should have your rights, you should own your stuff. We will never give that up.

• 53:14Speaker 02

  We will always like maintain people's security and privacy as a first-class piece of the system, but it should be as easy to use as any other, you know, system out there with, with familiar logins, with familiar things like that. And so that's our vision, you know, we really want to make it easy and make it better.

• 53:32Ryan Sean Adams?

  So on this vision and the future of wallets that you see, so you were talking earlier about smart contract wallets. Then we talked briefly about ERC 4337. I'm not yet sure if I understand ERC 4337, which is kind of this account abstraction standard on top of Ethereum that is now live and active, like it just seemed to come out of nowhere. And I'm curious as like, we haven't seen this on the user interface side sort of expressed. And so everything that we saw on Uniswap wallet there with ERC 4337 or smart contract wallet future, like what actually improves about the user experience?

• 54:14Speaker 02

  Yep. Yeah. So right now we're building, we have it as an EOA and we started there because that's what most people have.

• 54:20David Hoffman?

  EOA is externally owned account, which simply put, it's the opposite of a smart contract wallet. It's the wallet that you probably have listener.

• 54:27Ryan Sean Adams?

  It's your C phrase thing.

• 54:28David Hoffman?

  It's your C phrase thing. Yeah.

• 54:30Speaker 02

  Yep. Thanks for helping me there. So what will change in the smart contract wallet world? Okay. So there's a, there's a little bit of a complexity here is that like you said, this is a, it's not a change to Ethereum yet. Right. But it may be in the future, but, but even in the world today, if I had a smart contract wallet, here's a few things that could happen. First of all, I could log in with a phone number or email, or really sign up with a phone number or email in addition to adding another layer of security, like an on-device, like in the hardware security model on your device. Right? And when I signed up for a wallet or login for, with an email or a phone number,

• 55:11Speaker 02

  I would use basically a two-factor or passwordless loop to authenticate my wallet, my smart contract wallet, basically. And in that way, I can actually secure the, you know, a part of, of the smart contract wallet in, you know, by using this loop and on-device. And the really innovative thing there is that the smart contract wallet basically is a system where if I want to do an action, As a user, all I need to do is sign with the security that I've added, right? So I might sign with my Face ID plus my login account, right?

• 55:51Speaker 02

  And in that way, I can submit that signature to a relayer who will start to do things on my behalf. That could be things like recover the wallet, right? I could add either individuals or I could add other devices that help me recover the wallet. I could also do things like pay for a transaction in any token that I have in my wallet, right? So I could even onboard with a phone number, top up through a fiat on-ramp with USDC and do my first transaction, all in a very short timeframe by delegating some of these actions to the relayers, right? So I don't have to go through the process of buying ETH, for instance. I don't have to go through the process, all these complicated processes.

• 56:34Speaker 02

  So that's like a little story that will be possible in the future with these smart contract wallets, in addition to other things.

• 56:39Ryan Sean Adams?

  Kind of is possible now with ERC 4337?

• 56:42Speaker 02

  Yep, yep. You can actually try some of these wallets on-chain right now. There's a few of them out there that I've done sort of the demos of this.

• 56:50David Hoffman?

  And then the metaphor that I use to really explain, because everyone explains smart contract wallets in a different way. And they usually do it with explaining some certain story, right? Like, you know, those whole approvals before you trade a token on Uniswap? Well, you can actually combine them together because of smart contract wallets. You know, like Gas is Trading, where like a different account can pay for your gas. You can do that with smart contract wallets. Everyone is like doing the whole, let's explain what a smart contract wallet is by feeling the different parts of the elephant. The way that I've tried to explain like what the elephant actually is, is like, think of an EOA, an externally owned account, as a Bitcoin wallet, as in it's a dumb, stupid input-output calculator wallet, no offense Bitcoin, sorry. And then a smart contract wallet is an Ethereum wallet, as in it's a wallet with a chip in it. It's a Turing-complete wallet.

• 57:35David Hoffman?

  It's a general, like, smart contract-enabled wallet. And so your wallet is now smart. And most people like that, once they figure that out, their brain breaks and they realize that only one half of Ethereum is unlocked and smart contract wallet. It's like unlock the other half. This is just a metaphor that I use.

• 57:53Ryan Sean Adams?

  My like, my way of explaining that is like coming from the other direction of like a non crypto native who's like seed phrases are dumb. Why do I need those? This is stupid and complicated. This is why Venmo is better and crypto sucks. And this gives the us parody basically with the Venmo style account recovery wallet, except it's completely self sovereign. Which is a huge design, uh, user experience upgrade.

• 58:21Speaker 02

  Yep. And, and you know, I might have done the best job explaining it, but furthermore, like what's really beautiful about the system is that depending on how you implement it, the user gets to choose their own security model. Right? We've been talking about at Uniswap, this idea of like a progressive wallet experience for a little bit, which is the idea that like, when you first onboard and you put your first hundred dollars in your wallet, you probably don't, you don't require the same amount of security you do as if when you have $10,000 in the wallet. Right? And users should be able to kind of like, we should be able to give users that security and the upgrade the security over time as they get deeper into crypto, into Ethereum without forcing them to deal with this very complex thing upfront. And that's like a really key, I think that will be really key to making these things more intuitive.

• 59:06Speaker 02

  And what's really cool about this is it'll allow you to do things like over time, set spending limits on the wallet. Over time, put specific NFTs in a specialized vault that the smart contract wallet owns and only, you know, be able to spend them with two factor, real true two factor authentication on an authy app. Right? Imagine I could do that with my most valuable NFT that I could only send it once I put that code in from authy. I mean, that's pretty cool.

• 59:29Ryan Sean Adams?

  This is hugely bullish overall. I think that the overall theme and we're talking about the Uniswap wallet today, but the overall theme for crypto natives is we are entering the golden age of wallets. It's about to get a lot better.

• 59:42David Hoffman?

  Barely even scratched the service.

• 59:44Ryan Sean Adams?

  We talk a lot about like what's holding crypto back from a scalability perspective and for so long it's been, more transactions per second, ETH gas fees are too high, all of these things. That's still a factor that we're solving with layer twos. Another like less talked about. Reason we haven't been able to scale crypto is our user experience ain't all that good. Right? It still takes a lot of effort. Like, your mom can't use this. Grandma can't use this. I don't know if grandma will be able to use the Uniswap wallet, but you know, your mom can at least. And so this, this, this really is a huge upgrade and ultimately allows us to scale crypto out to more users. And more people going bankless is what we're all here for.

• 1:00:24Ryan Sean Adams?

  Cal, thank you so much for this conversation. Really cool to see. And we're cheering you guys on in the, the conversation. Let's call it not a battle, conversation with Apple and your, your gatekeeping web two companies here.

• 1:00:39Speaker 02

  Thank you so much. It's a pleasure.

• 1:00:41Ryan Sean Adams?

  Oh, we promised one thing though, before we let you go, can we show that QR code? Cause I want to scan it. I don't have the Uniswap wallet yet. So I'm going to race everybody. So give us the context. Are there 100 invites for this thing right now?

• 1:00:55Speaker 02

  I believe so. I believe this link is going to be 100. So scan away. And then like, you know, like I mentioned earlier, follow us on Twitter, get on Discord. I think, you know, we don't have that many more. There's a cap to how many people we can actually add to the test flight. But, um, you know, we'll get you on. Yeah.

• 1:01:13Ryan Sean Adams?

  Hold it steady.

• 1:01:14Speaker 02

  We'll get you on and.

• 1:01:16Ryan Sean Adams?

  So then you scan it and then when you view it and start testing.

• 1:01:20Speaker 02

  So yeah, what that'll do is give you, bring you to a webpage that says, you know, you know, start testing. You have to have, you have to be on iOS to start and you have to install a test flight app, which is an Apple app that you may already have installed. Once that's installed, you just hit get and it'll download the Uniswap wallet and you'll have it in your, in your hands.

• 1:01:40Ryan Sean Adams?

  I got it. Only 99 left now, maybe less. Thanks so much, Cal. We will include links in the show notes to this, but get it while it's hot. Not too many downloads left. That's it, guys. Bankless listeners. Got to end with risks and disclaimers, of course. None of this was financial advice. Eth is risky. Crypto is risky. So is DeFi. So are wallets. You could lose what you put in, but we are headed west. This is the frontier. It's not for everyone, but we're glad you're with us on the bankless journey. Thanks a lot.

• 1:02:09Speaker 02

  Thank you, guys.