$9 TRILLION 401k Bomb About To Hit Bitcoin | Jordi Visser

Jordi Visser is a macro investor with over 30 years of Wall Street experience. He also writes a Substack called “VisserLabs” and puts out investing YouTube videos. In this conversation we talk about bitcoin coming to 401k’s, the lack of volatility, why ETH is performing well, what is going on at the Fed, how AI & GPT-5 will impact the economy, and how you can make more money. ===================== Independent Investor ConferenceMarkets are at all-time highs. Public equities are outperforming. And individual investors are driving it all. It’s officially the rise of the retail investor. On September 12th in NYC, I’m hosting the Independent Investor Summit — a one-day event built exclusively for self-directed investors. We’re bringing together some of the smartest public market investors I know for a full day of macro insights, market predictions, one-on-one fireside chats, and actionable investment ideas from each investor. This is going to be an absolute banger event. Join us if you like markets and think retail is two steps ahead of Wall Street.👉 TICKETS: https://www.independentinvestor.co/ (use promo code POMPYT25)======================From The Desk of Anthony PomplianoCheck out my NEW show for daily bite-sized breakdowns of the biggest stories in finance, technology, and politics: http://pompdesk.com/======================Podcast Sponsors"This episode is brought to you by Figure (https://figuremarkets.co/pomp), the platform to Earn and Borrow. Need liquidity without selling your crypto? Figure offers Crypto-Backed Loans, allowing you to borrow against your Bitcoin or Ethereum with 12-month terms and no prepayment penalties. They have the lowest rates in the industry at 8.91%, allowing you to access instant cash or buy more Bitcoin without triggering a tax event. Your BTC collateral is protected by decentralized MPC custody. You can always see your BTC ownership in your FM account and verify holdings in your personal BTC vault on chain. Unlock your crypto’s potential today. Visit their app to apply (https://figuremarkets.co/pomp) for a Crypto Backed Loan today! Figure Lending LLC dba Figure. Equal Opportunity Lender. NMLS 1717824. Terms and conditions apply. Visit figure.com for more information. Figure Markets Credit LLC. 650 S. Tryon Street, 8th Floor, Charlotte, NC 28202. (888) 926-6259. NMLS ID 2559612. Terms and conditions apply. Visit https://figuremarkets.com/borrow for more information."======================Bitwise is one of the largest and fastest-growing crypto asset managers. As of December 31, 2021, the company managed over $1.3 billion across an expanding suite of investment solutions, which include the world's largest crypto index fund and other innovative products spanning Bitcoin, Ethereum, DeFi, and crypto equities. Whether you’re an individual, advisor, or institution, Bitwise provides intelligent access to crypto with your unique circumstances in mind. Visit https://bitwiseinvestments.com/ to learn more. Certain of the Bitwise investment products may be subject to the extreme risks associated with investing in crypto assets. Visit https://bitwiseinvestments.com/disclosures to learn more.======================Core is the leading Bitcoin scaling solution, enabling you to lock in yield by locking up your Bitcoin. Simply lock it on the Bitcoin blockchain to secure the Core network, and get rewards. No bridging. No lending. Just holding. Still your keys. Still your coins. Now your yield. Start at https://stake.coredao.org/pomp======================TimeStamps:0:00 - Intro1:50 - Impact of bitcoin coming to 401k’s 7:20 - Bitcoin’s current lack of volatility 11:26 - Thinking through ethereum and stablecoins21:56 - GPT-5 release & AI impact 36:29 - What is going on at the Fed? 43:08 - Impact of individual productivity gains

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  Into the wild, the Calthea Panther encounters a shimmering crocodile, a lonely lovebird, a breathless zebra, and a restless tiger.

• 0:16Speaker 01

  Your vehicle doesn't just get you from here to there. It's a bridge to the people and places that matter most. It's how you show up for your family, your community, and everyone else that depends on you. That's why for 125 years, Firestone has been building tires with one thing in mind: to deliver products that are as reliable as you are. Firestone, always dependable, since 1900.

• 0:48Anthony Pompliano?

  What's up, everyone? This is Anthony Pompliano. Many of you know me as Pomp. You're listening to the Pomp Podcast, which is my effort to find the most interesting people in the world and sit with them for hours while I ask questions in an effort to learn. So it would mean the world to me if you would subscribe to the show on your favorite audio platform, watch episodes on YouTube, and tell your friends and family about the podcast. My goal is to help millions learn from the world's most interesting people. So let's get into today's episode.

• 1:16Speaker 03

  Anthony Pompliano runs Pomp Investments. All views of him and the guests on his podcast are solely their opinions and do not reflect the opinions of Pomp Investments. You should not treat any opinion expressed by Pomp or his guests as a specific inducement to make a particular investment or follow a particular strategy, but only as an expression of his personal opinion. This podcast is for informational purposes only.

• 1:39Speaker 04

  Over the longer term, the digital economy is only going to grow. It has grown. Bitcoin has worked. So I think for people that maybe were, you know, in their 70s and not thinking about this, I think when you start living to 100 to 110, it really opens up more and more thought process. So I think the government is supporting this, not just from allowing it, but I think they're allowing now the banks to actually cover it, to actually have people talking about it, doing research on it. So I think there is a comfort level that's growing and obviously the price performance that helps out as well.

• 2:13Anthony Pompliano?

  What's going on, guys? Today, we got a great episode with Jordy Visser. In this conversation, we talk about Bitcoin, the lack of volatility, why ETH is performing well, what's going on at the Fed, how AI and ChatGPT 5 is going to impact GDP growth and the economy. And then we get into where exactly all this is going and how you can make more money using these new technologies. Here's my latest conversation with Jordy Visser. All right, Jordy, this week, we saw the president in the White House come out and say that you now are going to be able to put Bitcoin and cryptocurrencies into your 401ks. Obviously, this is a huge pool of capital. I think all retirement accounts in America are over $40 trillion. I think that just 401k kind of directed, you know, retirement accounts are about $9 trillion or so. That is more than

• 2:58Anthony Pompliano?

  two times the size of the entire crypto market alone. How big of a deal is this?

• 3:03Speaker 04

  It's a big deal. I mean, there's been a lot of people that have talked about it online that have been kind of waiting for this moment with inside the crypto space. But again, it coincides with a getting more people to focus on it, which really started a year ago because of the the launch of the ETFs. But then, as this year has gone on, more and more people, you've seen it through the inflows, you've seen it through adoption from the government, allowing people to do it. People had to do their homework first. So to allow it to happen, to access a pool that it wasn't allowed to be involved in, is a big deal. And I don't think anyone should minimize it just because of the pure size. But when you go through the

• 3:45Speaker 04

  the most important argument for Bitcoin, I think there's two things that that hit me as from an investment standpoint. The first one is just how overweight everyone is in quote unquote, "technology" and stocks in general, but also just in fiat assets. So we've all talked about the fact that there has to be this kind of diversification that's going to happen. Well, 401ks are a pool that it really should be happening in, especially because of the story that we've talked about, I've written about, you know, Rick Edelman has gone on a bunch of podcasts and talked about. The need to have a significant amount of money into crypto. And he brings up two important reasons.

• 4:31Speaker 04

  One is just the fact that if you're going to live longer, which is what AI is going to bring, you need to have more duration assets in your portfolio, meaning you need to have more growth. And if you're talking about Bitcoin and you're talking about crypto and now all of a sudden you say, well, I'm going to live an extra 10 years, I'm going to live an extra 20 years. I think that strips out the risk that people have been worried about with Bitcoin, which is the volatility. And so over the longer term, the digital economy is only going to grow. It has grown, Bitcoin has worked. So I think for people that maybe were, you know, in their 70s and not thinking about this, I think when you start living to 100 to 110, it really opens up more and more thought process.

• 5:13Speaker 04

  So I think the government is supporting this, not just from allowing it, but I think they're allowing now the banks to actually cover it, to actually have people talking about it, doing research on it. So I think there is a comfort level that's growing and obviously the price performance that helps out as well.

• 5:30Anthony Pompliano?

  Now, when you see these retirement accounts, one of the things that I keep hearing everyone talk about that's a critic, they're like, oh, why are you going to put this risky asset? Well, how are you going to let these people go and speculate on Bitcoin and crypto? I wrote earlier this week talking about the fact that maybe US Treasuries are actually the risky asset, you know, if you go and you look at TLT or any of these things, they are just down only for five plus years. I mean, TLT specifically is down 50% in the last five years. And so I do think that there is kind of this shift that is occurring in the internet natives who are saying, no, the thing that the traditionalists call safe is actually really risky. The thing that they think is risky is actually safe. Is that going to play out in these retirement accounts where you're going to see more and more people start to say, look, if I have a long duration in kind of this tax advantage

• 6:14Anthony Pompliano?

  structure, then I actually need to get away from things that people have historically thought were safe and maybe push out into assets that maybe otherwise had been labeled as risk assets?

• 6:25Speaker 04

  Yeah, so this is, I mean, let's go through two things here. One is, bonds have not performed now for the last six years. So there's two ways for there to be risk. One is to have volatility and corrections. I continue to say like Nvidia as an example. Nvidia went from a peak of 150 all the way down to 80 and then went back up again. But that move was far more than the downside that Bitcoin saw over the same time period. And not even close when you're talking about this year. So I think what has started to happen, and this really started in 2022.

• 7:05Speaker 04

  The worst year that you could possibly imagine for crypto would have been that 2022 year in terms of FTX and everything that happened. The regulations coming out of nowhere and just making sure everything stopped. And Bitcoin was down about the same amount as Amazon was that year. When you're talking about the Mag 7 having corrections that are equal to, when you're talking about Nvidia having a higher implied volatility within the options market than Bitcoin, you're kind of already going through when the largest company in the world, which everyone owns because of their passive weighting is already there. So I really don't care that much about the arguments on the risk side. I think people have missed the fact that as a retirement person, I think if you have

• 7:49Speaker 04

  a bond and it's unchanged over five years while inflation has been high and at the same time, you're getting more volatility from the stocks in your portfolio that you own, there is absolutely a place for Bitcoin. And I think that's been one of the biggest changes is we've seen volatility come down sharply in Bitcoin this year.

• 8:06Anthony Pompliano?

  Now, when you see that volatility compressing, I think there's two different components. You obviously get large pools of capital that are now willing to actually buy it because there's some weird dynamic where they don't want a 100-ball asset, but maybe they're okay with like a 40-ball asset, right? It's like just enough where it's interesting, but it's still safe enough where I'm not going to have to go right to my investors and tell them, we're down 90% every two years. At the same time, I think that we have seen historically that there are these periods where you start to get compression of volatility. It kind of acts as like a coiled spring. I think this was, remember Joe from Similar Scientific was saying, you know, if you look at the 2017 bull market, you basically had this compression of volatility. And then right when you really hit kind of the large ramp, it was lulling everyone to sleep.

• 8:49Anthony Pompliano?

  And that's when you got a breakout. How do you as an investor think through, you know, is the compression of volatility, something that is a longer term trend and you can start to rely on it? Versus at the moment, everyone gets comfortable and complacent. That's actually when you should expect these kind of very volatile asymmetric breakouts.

• 9:06Speaker 04

  Well, it's funny with volatility. I mean, you want volatility on the upside. You don't want volatility on the downside. So, you know, this is the fact, and I heard Jack Moller's talking about this recently. There's been a lot of corporate treasury activity. You've obviously had a lot of convert selling by, by sailor. You've also had them doing these override strategies. You've had new people come into the market in Bitcoin and realize that they could get 10 to 20% returns by just selling, doing either the futures against the cash or selling upside options and just continuing to do it. So I think we've been in a world, there's been a lot of supply that's come to the marketplace in terms of volatility.

• 9:47Speaker 04

  That's helped suppress the implied volatility. I've said with you, I'm going to keep saying it. I think the major issue is going to come that people are forgetting when you're selling upside volatility in an asset that actually has a finite amount. If you start to break higher and people need to go out and cover those shorts. We haven't had a short squeeze yet in this while the institutional buying has been happening. So every time that people ask, how can we still be sitting around 120,000 when sailors bought X amounts? And all these corporate treasuries have purchased and you're seeing all around the globe now more and more companies are doing it. To me, that is a function of the volatility. I always reference the Deribit market and just where the strike prices are.

• 10:30Speaker 04

  But it's more than just that. It is the vol compression coming from sailor and all these people. The difference is this is not a fiat asset. You, as it goes higher, you can't go, okay, we're going to issue more Bitcoin. You start to run into a situation where there's a squeeze and that's why I said, and I still believe it. When I look at the charts right now. They're great. They're going higher. But here's the thing. Ethereum, which is a critical component to the traditional fiat world's ability to put a narrative behind crypto, which has a fundamental tone to it because it's an innovation. They like to invest in innovations. Bitcoin is gold. They want an innovation. Ethereum is nearing a triple top, which is right around the 4,000 level. And then you have 5,000, the all time highs. I believe

• 11:12Speaker 04

  once Ethereum gets through 4,000, Bitcoin will race with it and they will both start going. So I think we're getting closer and closer than that. And that's why this whole conversation about volatility compression, I think this is all setting up to bringing in the avalanche where people are going to be chasing and there's going to be FOMO. And I'll bring up one more thing. I've talked about it repeatedly. I believe that in the traditional asset world, the problem for people is going to be they are heavily overweight technology. Technology is going to be disrupted by AI, but in particular, anything built on code. That is the beauty of Bitcoin. Bitcoin's built on code. Ethereum built on code. Here's the code part. The bad

• 11:52Speaker 04

  thing is for fiat companies, the code that they have is going to disrupt AI. AI does not disrupt Bitcoin. It actually disrupts moats. And so you want to get into the digital economy. You want to get into the place where you can actually be competitive with fiat companies. And that's what I think we're entering into. And I think GPT-5 was a trigger point for that as well.

• 12:12Anthony Pompliano?

  So we finally found something we may disagree on after all these episodes. Perfect. I don't disagree that Wall Street wants a narrative outside of just buy Bitcoin and hold it, you know, kind of the digital gold narrative. I think they believe that narrative. They've obviously poured a lot of capital into that narrative. They will continue to pour capital into the narrative. This innovation idea, you know, I think that Ethereum is the longest standing one. It's the larger one. But it does feel to me like from a technology performance standpoint, it is inferior to some of the other chains. And I don't spend a ton of time going and, you know, analyzing all these different chains. But when I have used these products, when I've tested it, when I've invested in companies that are using these products, it does feel like developers are saying to themselves.

• 12:57Anthony Pompliano?

  Hey, this Ethereum thing is interesting, but I actually find XYZ chain is faster, whether it's Solana or one of these other things. And so what I wonder is how much of the Ethereum capital flow is simply people saying, I bought Bitcoin, now I need to diversify because I have an investment policy statement or something. Well, what's the second largest one? Okay, let me put some money in that. But over time, what you're going to find is as they begin to do some more fundamental research, they say, wait a second, this thing is actually not what I was promised. And instead, I now need to go and actually analyze what's the underlying technology, what's the performance, where developers going, et cetera. Now, I say that because one of the most surprising facts is Bitcoin new all time high after 2021.

• 13:41Anthony Pompliano?

  Solana new all time high after 2021. Ethereum has not even come close, right? I think Ethereum is down significantly in Bitcoin terms. It's even down in fiat terms from that all time high. And so I do wonder how much of that is kind of a lagging trade? And, you know, people buy Bitcoin and they push out into the risk curve and you'll sort of see capital flow into like an Ethereum and then that'll kind of run and catch up, which has happened in past cycles. Or have we kind of left Ethereum for dead because people have said, okay, hey, that was the trade before. But in an innovation game, it is all about what is the newest, fastest, cheapest, you know, most innovative chain. And it is very difficult, both in a corporate, you know, kind of centralized structure, but also in these blockchains.

• 14:25Anthony Pompliano?

  Once you lose the starting position or kind of lose the hearts and minds, to gain it back is very difficult. And it feels like the mercenaries, they want asymmetric returns. So they're not interested in Ethereum going from 3,500 to 5,000. That's, you know, frankly boring to them and they like, I just go buy a stock market for that. What they want is they want to buy something that goes up 10x. And obviously these larger kind of blue chip crypto blockchains are not going to provide that at this point. So they're as a mercenary pushing way out on the risk curve and buying things that you and I would probably not even know how to pronounce, let alone understand what they are. The people who are coming in to buy the Ethereum's or the Solana's now seem to be kind of the larger pools of capital. Those are the people who are interested in this.

• 15:09Anthony Pompliano?

  And you see kind of the staking announcement from the SEC saying it's not a security. Like those things I do think will lead to a narrative on Wall Street. The question is just at what point do people wave the white flag and say, you know, Wall Street is all talking about this, but the price is actually not going past the former all time high. Let's move on from it. And I just don't know where that point is and maybe we don't get it. But I think that to me is a much larger possibility than maybe people are giving it credit for right now. Today's episode is brought to you by Figure. They're the largest non-bank mortgage lender in the United States with over $15 billion unlocked on their lending platform. They've just lowered rates on their Bitcoin and Ethereum backed loans

• 15:48Anthony Pompliano?

  to 8.91%, improving their already industry low fixed rate 50% LTV loans. They keep building as well, being the only major CBL player to launch decentralized MPC custody to protect against single entry failure. And they just removed interest deferral fees entirely. So you can let Bitcoin price appreciation pay for your loan over time. What is MPC decentralized custody? It's a Bitcoin or ETH on-chain wallet with multiple key shards to protect you from single entity custody failure. You can always see your crypto ownership in a segregated wallet and verify your collateral hasn't moved. Whether you're funding a major purchase like a down payment on a home, investing in new opportunities, or even buying more Bitcoin,

• 16:30Anthony Pompliano?

  Figure makes it straightforward and transparent. Visit their app or click my link below to take out a Bitcoin-backed loan with Figure today.

• 16:37Speaker 04

  You know what's great about this? So when we decided and talked about possibly doing this, I think we both agreed that you'd be coming from an audience that was crypto dominant. I'd be coming from an audience that was macro and traditional finance dominant. So I don't disagree with anything that you said. In fact, I say to everyone, I don't care what token it is, what innovation it is, in a world of... Ideas become reality in hours as opposed to months and years. There will be insane competition and I don't want to invest in any innovation and try to pick the bottom and the top of these because it'll happen too fast, which is kind of what you're saying. There's better innovation. That's not the, I'm looking at it from the group that I

• 17:22Speaker 04

  know. So when they say I can't value Bitcoin, you know how they can value Ethereum right now? They can go, how many stablecoin volume is going to be? What are the transactions going to look like? Ethereum's the connection to that and Circle is my connection to that. So I'm actually only arguing what people that I know what they need. They need to do the traditional network effects, just like they do for compute, just like they did for Facebook, just like they did for Amazon. They have to come up with a valuation and the easiest thing for them to do is to look at the growth curves and go, hey, stablecoin volumes are ripping, stablecoin market cap is ripping. I want to invest in that. What's the best way to play it? And then you go

• 18:06Speaker 04

  search and Tom Lee shows up saying you want to be Ethereum. So I don't think there's a lot of science in this. I just think that's where people are going to migrate to first.

• 18:13Anthony Pompliano?

  You know what's funny about this is, I don't disagree. That's the logic and thought process. What I wonder is if, there's this old saying, I think Marc Andreessen, I first heard him say, I don't know if it was his or not, but he said something to the effect of when a good team meets a bad market, the market wins. And when a bad team meets a good market, the market wins, right? I kind of think that here it's like when the capital allocators meet the technologist market, the technologist market wins, right? Regardless of whether the allocators are right or wrong. And if you go and you look, Circle, great business. Tether, even better business. Well, where is Tether really popular? Like Tron is this, you know, huge winner there. Now Tether has also backed, there's something called Plasma, which people may not know about yet,

• 18:56Anthony Pompliano?

  but Plasma is a stablecoin specific blockchain where they think that there are certain things that they can do. Now I'm aware of other projects which are not yet public and I can't share, but there are very real payment players who are not like legacy, you know, Visa, Mastercard. Whatever that are putting time, effort and money behind building blockchains that are specific to stablecoins. And so it kind of comes back to this idea of like, will you get one? Will you have many? How does this all play out? I don't think we know yet. But I don't think that the Wall Street crowd, from the people I talk with, understand how much of an assault, like a bottoms up blockchain assaulter is on this stuff. And so, yes, it's like very

• 19:39Anthony Pompliano?

  simple, like, hey, I like stablecoins, stablecoins, some of them run on Ethereum, let me buy Ether, because that's like my, you know, index on the stablecoins. But if we end up getting, you know, stablecoin specific blockchains, or we end up seeing this kind of proliferate on Tron or these other chains, like, it breaks down. And I think that's probably, to me, it goes back to this fundamental question, I think we talked about it months ago. I do think there's a consensus belief that stablecoins are going to be much more valuable, more popular in the future. Great. How do you play it? And historically, you really couldn't, because you can't buy the stablecoins, worth a dollar, it's not going anywhere, right? Couldn't buy Tether, couldn't buy Circle. Now, you can buy Circle. So I think that's a huge reason why people have kind of piled in to Circle

• 20:22Anthony Pompliano?

  stock. Other than that, it is not very clear yet how people are going to play the stablecoins. And so I do think that it is kind of this unique situation where usually, there's a bunch of ways to play something, and then consensus is reached. And so it's like, once people come to the consensus of an investment trade, there's a lot of options on how to express it. This is kind of the reverse, right? It's like, okay, you know, you gotta kind of only have half a brain to realize stablecoin should be more popular. How do I express the trade is actually taking quite a while for that to become obvious.

• 20:56Speaker 04

  Yeah, I agree. And this is the part of, you know, we didn't talk about it last week. There's, the Chinese have basically thrown in the towel on stablecoins, and now they're really focused on having a yuan-backed stablecoin. So this is an important moment, in my opinion, when people try to connect the dots and they go through it. I've believed all year that all you need for stablecoins is, do you need it to be a gateway for making it easier for non-

• 21:26Speaker 04

  Digital asset owners to have a wallet. That's critical because that was one of the hardest parts. So allowing them to have a wallet to make it easier for everyone in the world to have a wallet brings them into that ecosystem. So Bitcoin at the end ends up being the biggest benefactor to me. It's the network effects. If money's entering the system from the fiat system, then you have more money going there. By the Chinese saying they want a yuan backed stablecoin. By the ECB putting something out saying we're at risk if the US stablecoin approach, we don't do something about it. So what the US government is doing is forcing the AI race and the stablecoin race to be connected. These are both the, and this is what I wrote about this week in Substack.

• 22:08Speaker 04

  This is a rebellion against governments and the US is actually helping do it, which I never thought would happen. So for stablecoins, I think people should be viewing it as more and more money is coming into the ecosystem of the digital asset world. It is phenomenally good for digital assets and you have to be investing in it.

• 22:25Anthony Pompliano?

  For better or worse, I think the part of why the US is leading the rebellion and the government is the agitator here is because whether people agree with it or not, we put rebels into the White House, right? We put people who are like, hey, we're gonna go blow up the system. And so you kind of, you know, you're getting what you voted for. Now, let's talk about AI and then we'll talk about the Fed and interest rate cuts and some of the Fed Board Governor stuff. But on the AI front, GPT-5 got released and all kinds of controversy and debate in terms of is it good? Is it not? Is it AGI? Is it not? What's your general take on the release of GPT-5 and any of the AI stuff that happened this week?

• 23:04Speaker 04

  So the main, every time one of these comes out, you know, Grok 4 comes out, Grok 4 heavy and everyone debates where it is on the scale and all this. The main point is that they're coming out so fast. I mean, there's stories that Google's gonna come out with the next version and everyone's debating which one is better. There is no doubt because of the fact that what AGI is definition that we're on the path there. When we hit it, I've heard enough people say this, I'm not sure we're ever going to look back and say that was the AGI moment. So is this part of it? Yeah, this is part of an acceleration that is breathtaking to get to. What I'm going to be doing on my video

• 23:44Speaker 04

  this week, and we weren't doing this until this year, but Eric Schmidt had a video that came out that brought a lot of controversy about a year ago. And I know it was about a year ago because that's when I started my YouTube channel. And I had just listened to him talk on this Stanford classroom. It was videoed, it got released, and then Google wanted it pulled off because there were a couple of things in there that they didn't want out there. On that particular thing Eric Schmidt talked about, we would reach a point sometime within the next year or two where we would have software on demand.

• 24:26Speaker 04

  And that moment would be basically saying into your phone, hey, I want to create my own TikTok. I want you to replicate it. I want you to get all of its users and I want you to have it go viral that I've created this app to compete with it. And he said, this is what will be the new world of software. He specifically went through that major detail. Now, on the moonshots video that I recommended to everyone to listen to two, three weeks ago, he basically said, we're at that moment now with for enterprises, meaning if you're a company and you're running, you're paying for Salesforce.com and you decide that you're going to take your Google cloud provider, you're going to connect it to MCP, and you're

• 25:09Speaker 04

  going to have your own data analysis, all with inside Google now, and connect to your CRM, you basically can do what Salesforce can do, at least 80 to 90% of it. So what he said on there was that software is now, all software enterprises are in trouble. Now, the way that I operate is I look to see how the stocks are doing. And the software stocks outside of basically about 10, Oracle, which has a cloud, is major cloud provider. Microsoft, major cloud provider. And Palantir, defense. Outside of that, most of these software names are down anywhere from 10 to 30% and they act horribly right now. So I see the importance of GPT-5 as actually being a massive positive in the continuation

• 25:53Speaker 04

  of AI disrupting anything built on code. I believe it will be remembered as the recognition moment to where when people see these companies not able to grow and they're like, well, what happened? You've reached a point where any company can go build their own software. And so these companies are in trouble. And whether it's DocuSign, whether it's Salesforce.com, their stocks have been hurt. And you've been involved in the space to disrupt, you know, to build software and to go through AI. I think that's the most important thing of GPT-5 is this concept of software on demand, where you can now verbally say something and you have a competitor to establish businesses in a matter of minutes, not years.

• 26:32Anthony Pompliano?

  You know, one of the funny jokes that always has great truth to it is I think DocuSign has like 7,000 employees or something. And people are always like, you know, like, what are they all doing? It feels like the companies who have been built for the last 15 years, maybe, they are so entrenched in the model they have and it would be so disruptive for them to lean down and get ready for this new world. That's just not going to happen. Classic innovator's dilemma. But the one company that I heard on their earnings call this past week that I just can't stop thinking about, Alex Karp always has great kind of one-liners, you know, read the results and weep and all the things they say.

• 27:14Anthony Pompliano?

  But he said in the earnings report that their forward guidance is that they are going to drive more revenue with less employees. He's telling the market, we are going to increase our revenue and we are going to fire employees at the same time. And so I forget the exact numbers. I want to say they have something like 4,000 or 4,200 employees and they want to get down to like 3,600, if I remember correctly. So it's not like, hey, we're going to cut 50 people, right? I mean, he's talking about laying off hundreds of employees, which there's a whole conversation on like the morale internally, if basically you're a company you work at is trying to automate you away. But from a investor standpoint. To come out and say, we understand the disruption that is possible and we are going to embrace this stuff, then you just look at the stock performance and maybe that's

• 27:59Anthony Pompliano?

  one of the reasons why they're up and everyone else is down is because they're saying, we are going to continue to build the plane while we're in midair. And it seems like all of these businesses should be doing that. It's just really hard to do.

• 28:12Speaker 04

  It's really hard to do. I will say, this has been a story now for this entire year. I mean, David Solomon at Goldman Sachs basically said that. And they've applied pressure on their employees in terms of, hey, we were sending you to Utah. If you don't want to go to Utah, you're not going to work for the company anymore. Jamie Dimon has publicly come out and say it. The CTO of JP Morgan, in a Bloomberg article, basically came out and said, we're not going to need as many employees going forward. And the reason I bring up the financial companies is, one, I worked for Morgan Stanley and I know what the tech budget was when I was there in 1999 to 2003. And I know it's much bigger now for all of these companies. And so, they have a lot of coders, they have a lot of PhDs,

• 28:55Speaker 04

  they have a lot of, go through the whole list. When you're getting to GPT-5 and you're getting to the point where all of a sudden, these AI models are winning math competitions, which is what has happened in the last month, you've reached a point where you can already see that they're not going to need as many. But when you think about that, my argument has been and will remain, that all sounds good, but wouldn't you rather be a company that is starting with no people? And you don't need to fire them, you just don't even need to hire them. And this is where the startup world will continue to have a competition of what, maybe it's not Palantir because they have defense contracts. But absolutely, companies will be able to take little bits and pieces out of other businesses by starting

• 29:37Speaker 04

  up. And if someone outdoes them, then they'll shift and they'll do another one. This will be a feeding frenzy of innovation, because innovation now takes no time to go through this. And that's why when you read the stuff on GPT-5, if you really get into it, what did Elon Musk say? OpenAI is now going to eat Microsoft. It is a pure sign of, hey, how many people is OpenAI?

• 30:00Speaker 04

  How many does Microsoft have? OpenAI is already a half a trillion dollar company off the latest valuation and they now have a software on demand model. What has Microsoft been doing? So are operating systems still the dominant feature? Do you still need them in the same way? Certainly not in the next few years. So I think one of the problems when you say people, if you already have thousands of people, that means your business has already been successful, which means you are up for disruption. Can you keep a moat around your entire business? And I think it's going to be very, very difficult for the majority of companies with employees to have a moat around their business. And that's why you just haven't had many companies that have been doing well. And that's why the concentration is so great.

• 30:39Anthony Pompliano?

  Let's talk about the Federal Reserve. They got a whole bunch of stuff.

• 30:43Anthony Pompliano?

  Media, but there was a Fed governor who stepped down early. I believe that the actual term was going to end in early 2026, but by stepping down now, it allowed Trump to go ahead and appoint someone. His selection ended up being Stephen Myron, who I've talked with before, and I think that people have kind of pointed to, hey, his economic thought process, his perspective has had a very large impact on Trump's economic policies. What is your read in terms of the governor stepping down, Myron going in now, and you know, kind of the process that we are watching the Fed go through, where it kind of feels like outsiders are becoming insiders?

• 31:22Anthony Pompliano?

  Today's episode is brought to you by Bitwise Asset Management. And now we have a quick word from Matt Hogan, one of the smartest minds in all of crypto investing.

• 31:31Speaker 05

  Hi, I'm Matt Hogan, CIO of crypto asset manager Bitwise. Look, crypto can be confusing. There's so much noise and the space changes so quickly. That's why every week I write a five minute memo on the biggest stories impacting crypto in plain English. Why is Bitcoin up or down? What are people missing? Where should investors look next? Get the low down every week. Sign up to get the weekly CIO memo delivered straight to your inbox. Go to bitwiseinvestments.com/ciomemo. That's bitwiseinvestments.com/ciomemo.

• 32:07Anthony Pompliano?

  Carefully consider the extreme risks associated with crypto before investing. Today's episode is brought to you by Core. You can earn yield on your Bitcoin by just holding your Bitcoin. It's simple. Core, the leading Bitcoin scaling solution, will reward you for not selling your Bitcoin. It's not magic. Here's how it works. Core is a protocol secured by elected validators. You can help elect validators and secure the network by simply locking up your Bitcoin on the Bitcoin blockchain. No bridging, no lending, and just holding. When your validator secures Core, it earns rewards fueled by network activity and passes them back to you as yield. With a minimum lockup of just one day, when the time lock ends, you get your Bitcoin back untouched. Still your keys, still your coins, now your yield.

• 32:50Anthony Pompliano?

  For even higher rates, stake Core alongside your Bitcoin and multiply your yield. And if you want to see what your Bitcoin is securing, join millions of others in exploring the largest Bitcoin DeFi ecosystem. There are over 100 live apps in the network and the deepest liquidity in all of Bitcoin DeFi. Get off zero and start earning yield on even just 1% of your Bitcoin by going to stake.cordial.org/pomp. Again, that's stake.cordial.org/pomp, or go click the link in the description. What is your read in terms of the governor stepping down, Myron going in now, and you know, kind of the process that we are watching the Fed go through, where it kind of feels like outsiders are becoming insiders?

• 33:32Speaker 04

  Yeah, there's two parts to this that are really interesting to me. The first one is obviously, yeah, you're bringing in someone who is, is as close to Trump as you could possibly have, because he kind of was the one who orchestrated the whole tariff and dollar situation and wrote the paper about it at the end of last year. And they kind of followed that entire doctrine. Now, the dollar has weakened. He talked about the fact that he didn't necessarily want the dollar to weaken, but he did highlight that there were benefits that came from the weaker dollar. He's been critical of the Fed, but let's take it a step further. When you say critical of the Fed, let's not use the Donald Trump criticism as something. He actually wrote a paper, co-authored a paper, and I believe it came out in the first quarter,

• 34:17Speaker 04

  second quarter of last year for the Manhattan, I think the Manhattan Institute published it. It was all on what has become of the Fed and what should be done. And a lot of the things that are happening, the aggression by Trump on Powell, are specifically in the paper that If the Fed has become politicized, if it has become a place, which it has, that is doing things that aren't in the best interest of the direction of the country, then the administration should have the ability of doing things. So it's kind of like a Trojan horse type situation to put Mirren in there as opposed to, say, Kevin Hassett or Scott Besson.

• 34:58Speaker 04

  And the only reason I say Trojan horse is because he has written things about needing to change. I think people, you know, have not fully grasped what is coming over the course of the next year. We're now at 91% probability of this morning of the Fed cutting rates in September. Now, part of that was from, I think, people really realizing what we talked about last week, which the labor numbers were bad. Whether or not you believe them and he's, you know, getting rid of the BLS person is irrelevant. There's no way to get around that the numbers are bad. I saw an interesting thing from, on X, from Parker Ross, who actually is an economist

• 35:42Speaker 04

  that does a lot of interesting data work. And he highlighted that the last three months, the labor participation rate has come down sharply. And if you would have left the labor participation rate at the same level in May as it is now, the unemployment rate would actually be up to 4.9%. So this just highlights that there is a lot going on with inside the labor market. And so you had three more Fed officials this week come out and basically say that the labor market is weak enough now for rate cuts. So when you start getting in the point where you had two dissenters, now you have three additional ones, plus you have Kugler leaving, being replaced by Stephen Mirren, I think the Fed independence story is still over, as far as I'm concerned, meaning the White House is going to have an impact on interest rates next year.

• 36:27Speaker 04

  But because the labor market has weakened, partly because of the immigration situation, keeping the unemployment rate down and not being able to find people to hire, but also from the AI side that we're talking about, I really believe this dual mandate concept is coming into question because of the labor market's weak and inflation isn't ramping up. Seeing a one-time boost possibly from the tariffs. I think we're in a situation where people have to realize we're going to be cutting rates soon. And I'm going to still keep pounding the table for everyone who wants to listen out there. Do not focus on a recession. You are missing the AI infrastructure build out and power. We are going to have a change in the PMIs and it's going to happen over the course of the next three months, in my opinion. And we're already starting to see signs of it from my angle. We'll see if it actually plays out.

• 37:12Anthony Pompliano?

  So in 2020 or 2021, Powell was asked about inflation. And he was specifically asked about some version of, do you think that your monetary policy is actually hurting? You know, the bottom half of the country. And I think he was caught off guard. So I'll give him, you know, kind of the benefit of the doubt that this was not a premeditated answer. But he literally said something like, well, no one has come into my office and told me that. Which was just like, well, you know, and I remember we did a whole video on like, how do you find the Fed office, right? Which one is Jerome Powell's like, you know, what do, how do people get inside? Like, what are you talking about? I don't come into your office and tell you. And what I think he was basically saying was, I'm looking at the data.

• 37:57Anthony Pompliano?

  I don't care what people are saying because they're not coming and telling me that. Right? Now, I actually think the reverse is true, but the theme is sticks. Which is he's looking at a bunch of data. And he's trying to say, oh, I don't think I need to cut because of inflation or this, whatever the excuse is. But people are yelling and screaming on the internet and in real life saying, although not articulating explicitly, cut the interest rate. They're saying homes are unaffordable. We need this, we need that, like all the things that cutting interest rates would actually help them. And so it brings me back to, Besant was interviewed by, I think it was Friedberg and Chamath. Early on in the administration and they explicitly asked him,

• 38:42Anthony Pompliano?

  do you trust the inflation data? Do you trust the economic data? And I think you and I talked about before, but he said, no. And then he polished his hair. Well, did it? You know, and he tried to explain it away, but he said, no. And the firing of the BLS, the, you know, kind of actions that the administration has been taking, I think the Fed, et cetera. It brings me to this belief that this administration, whether correct or not, is actually listening to people more than it is looking at the data. And they're aware of the data, but I do think that we are entering a point now where there are very material, accurate critiques of the economic collection, the methodology, the

• 39:22Anthony Pompliano?

  kind of outputs. And so as an investor, I almost feel like it's more important to listen to what they're saying than to actually look at some of the data. And I'm scared to say that because it's like, the second you say that is when you should, you know, go back to focusing on the data. But it does feel like they continue to say what they're going to do. They're doing it regardless of whether you agree with it or not. And they are doing things despite what some of the data says, or advocating for things that maybe wouldn't make sense if you just looked at the data. But it seems to be lining up with what ends up being the result of their actions, stock market all time highs, people feel like things are going better, you know, companies are beating earnings, all these components. So how do you balance, you know, what the Fed is looking

• 40:06Anthony Pompliano?

  at with this economic data versus what like the administration is, I don't know, it's kind of like vibes, right? They're like, hey, look, these people are saying that they're in pain. Let's get the interest rate down so we can fix this problem.

• 40:18Speaker 04

  All right, I'm going to give you a take here that I've, I've not written about yet, I've not talked about yet. I find, so I, I listen to a lot of podcasts. I find my brethren of macro, like interviews, to be out of their mind right now. And the reason they're out of their mind is because they know nothing about artificial intelligence. They have not studied it. They have not come through it. And I'm going to bring this back to something you said at the beginning, and this is for all of them out there. You've been wrong, I mean continuously, waiting for recessions, calling for hyperinflation. I mean, this has been continuous. And yet you don't put any time into using LLMs

• 41:01Speaker 04

  to a degree that makes you realize how fast things are changing. And the reason that matters, if you believe, and I wrote a Substack last week on the Carousel of Progress, and how that silly ride at Disney where you'd go through, you know, 100 years of innovation, or whatever amount of years, we are now compounding at a pace of innovation, which is going decades in years. The reason that's important is Scott Besson gave another interview with the same people you mentioned last week after the AI Action Plan. And what he said is critical to this Fed discussion. He said, "We are in a stage right now of AI where the infrastructure is getting built out, and starting next year,

• 41:46Speaker 04

  we will see the handoff to productivity." Scott Besson understands what the Fed should be doing right now, which is why Trump believes he needs to get rid of them, because who gets hurt from higher rates? Wealthy people? No, they have cash. They're loaded with cash. They can sit there. That's why when they raised rates, for the first time in history in this country, the net corporate tax interest payments collapsed. And I remember showing this chart to people going, "Do you understand what this means? It means we have an economy where the cash is owned by a few companies, and then the smaller businesses are the ones that are getting hurt by higher rates. The Microsofts and the Apples, and they don't get hurt by higher rates because they don't borrow

• 42:26Speaker 04

  any money. This is not the same economy as what you guys saw before 2007. This is completely different." Well, if the companies are benefiting, then everyone who's on the bottom 50% of the country, the student loans, the whole thing, they depend on interest rates. So I believe the Fed should be lowering rates because they should be forecasting where productivity is, not today, where it's going to be three years from now, because that's what they're doing with inflation. They're embedding that they believe inflation is going to go higher, while Scott Besson, the Treasury Secretary, who is speaking with AI people all day long, and is part of the AI Action Plan, is saying, "No, productivity is coming, starting then." That gets back to the AI article from The Economist. If we have GDP going at 20% to 30%

• 43:11Speaker 04

  in five years because of... No people working, having 24-hour digital employees, having robo taxis replacing transports, the biggest job in the country, and having physical labor jobs by humanoids, all within the next five to 10 years. Why would we be caring about whether inflation is 2.6% or 3.5% now, or even 4%? Shouldn't we be helping the people that are going to be disrupted by the technology? That's where I think this makes no sense for anyone who's an academic, who's studied their entire career and is looking at history. We're in an unprecedented time, and I think they have to start making decisions that have a forward-looking basis more than just the next two quarters.

• 43:50Anthony Pompliano?

  You know what I find very interesting is, have you seen the stats around young men who went to college and who didn't, and what their job prospects are? Basically, there's no difference. Right now, the odds that you get a job, whether you have a college degree or not, are basically the same. And if you look at college-educated men versus college-educated women, the college-educated women definitely benefit from having a college degree. Men, pretty much no difference right now. Now, that could change, but right now. The reason why that is so fascinating to me is because we talk a lot about productivity in terms of companies. You have previously mentioned productivity of individuals, but I actually think that

• 44:35Anthony Pompliano?

  there is this very interesting component of AI really is efficiency, right? You can do more with less people. Now, what we are about to see is you are going to be able to get more educated in less time. And so I have two things that I actually think are part of this narrative that no one has yet mentioned. The first is child labor laws are going to have to change. Because guess what's going to happen? Working age right now is really 22, right? For college-educated, 18 for non-college-educated.

• 45:05Anthony Pompliano?

  You're going to start having 15 and 16 year olds who with access to this technology are building things. I've met some of them. There's, there's a number of young people that I've met that I'm like, you can go and start a company. You can do this. I know one guy who, he's in high school. I think he's a sophomore or junior. He is very smart when it comes to finance and he would like to go and take positions in public companies and be a friendly activist, help them change. And his whole theory is, I understand Gen Z, I can help them better, you know, market to these people, communicate with these people, reach this audience. He can't do it because the law won't let him start a business. Yeah. Right. And so I think that there's this element of if people get educated faster, they should mature faster. And therefore,

• 45:50Anthony Pompliano?

  what you're going to do is you're going to get an expansion of the workforce in terms from a demographic standpoint, where maybe now the workforce doesn't start at 22. What if it starts at 16? And if it starts at 16, well, there's a heck of a lot of people who just got added to the workforce and we didn't have to change anything. So I think that's one whole thing is this like, get smarter faster and therefore you are better prepared to go and operate in the real world. The second thing that I think is really interesting is there is a lack of investment that comes from people who have a lot of college debt. And I forget what the latest numbers, but I think student loans right now is like 1.7, 1.8 trillion dollars, whatever the number, it's some crazy number. It keeps growing exponentially or very fast. If those people

• 46:34Anthony Pompliano?

  aren't going to college in the future because they can learn faster and learn more, now all of a sudden, you are actually going to expand the amount of dollars in their wallet that they can use for investment at a much earlier age. And you start to get a tailwind for certain asset classes, you start to get compounding earlier, like they become wealthier at a younger age as well. And so there's all these ramifications that happen in, you know, kind of the business and investing world by simply helping people get educated in a more efficient manner. And it feels like AI, yes, it is going to make companies and people more productive, but also it is going to attack education in a way that frankly, we just don't understand yet. It's easy to pontificate

• 47:15Anthony Pompliano?

  about potential things. But what happens when a 14, 15, 16 year old is smarter than a 22 year old from 10 years ago? And then you give them these tools to create things. Like that feels like that is a significant change to the economy that we just are not planning for yet.

• 47:34Speaker 04

  Yeah, I, this is, this is an important thing because as a person who's in their 50s, who decided after using an LLM for two months and realizing that I was able to learn far more than I ever could, the only thing that changed in the two months was time, meaning I had the time to use it. And this is the thing I say to everyone when they call up, I'm like, hey, will you consult for, for me on this? And I'm like, well, I, you don't have the money to pay me to do that because every hour of the day is worth a certain amount of dollars to me. Because if I'm helping you and I'm not listening to a podcast, the podcasts are actually what teaches me the most.

• 48:17Speaker 04

  Because it's real time information. You can't get this in a book. You can't get this. You need to have the conversation about the podcast with ChatGPT and go back and forth and back and forth. And I can't do that if I'm on the road unless I have my phone with me. If I'm with someone else and I'm in a meeting, I'm losing time. While we're sitting here, the good thing is I'm learning from you, you're learning from me, we go on our way. And then people might think we prepare. We don't do anything. Like, we just get back on here the next week. We all, we both hustlers, we pay attention to the news. AI is something that for young people, they're going to be native in it. Not the 23 year olds that have already graduated college, but for the 10 year olds right now, the eight year olds, the seven year olds,

• 48:59Speaker 04

  they're growing up with ChatGPT and they want answers because they're really super curious. And because they want to just start making money immediately. My son is an entrepreneur. He's still in college right now, but he was an entrepreneur at 13. He was trading crypto. He was arbing things with candy. He was doing whatever he had to do. He's an entrepreneur. That's the way I was trained by my father. I think people just have to have an entrepreneurial mindset. I do think the job situation is going to change. One thing I want to make sure people at home realize when we talk about this, if you use the Palantir, Alan Karp thing again. One of the simplistic ways about time back into this, let's assume 50%, we need 50% less people in the workforce.

• 49:42Speaker 04

  Okay, well, instead of saying people, why don't you just say hours? It's the same thing. It all ends up as productivity. So if everyone still has a job, but they have to work half as much time, they're not making the same amount of money from that job, but they also have time now to be an entrepreneur if they want to, to make more money. You actually end up in a situation in the economy where it becomes a deflationary boom. We're not in that part yet. I think we're entering an inflationary boom where I think the power needs and the build out are going to be important. But I think on this point, before people get too scared about this whole job situation, I think younger people are going to enter the workforce. I think people are going to have more time on their hands. It's not about not having a job. It's about not sitting for a company that can't afford the people that it has.

• 50:26Speaker 04

  So you just go off and you're going to work for companies that can do it, less hours.

• 50:30Anthony Pompliano?

  Last thing I'll say on this is I have now seen, I think, three different videos go viral in the last two weeks or so that are basically somebody sitting in their car complaining, right? And they're like, "We have, you know, no opportunity whatsoever. We have, you know, the boomers are telling us this, we can't buy a house, we can't do this, we can't..." You know, I saw one guy recently, he was talking about mortgages and, and guess what? They're complaining about things that are right, like they are correct what they are talking about. I always go to, and I think people know that I'm pretty fond of this saying of, "Compete, don't complain." So you're correct in your complaints. And I think it's important that politicians in particular understand that they're correct in their complaints.

• 51:14Anthony Pompliano?

  But for the individual, you have to take personal responsibility, you've got to get yourself out of the situation, right? There's, there's no kind of going backwards in history. And what I think is going to be a life raft for a lot of those folks is learning how to use these new AI tools. And to your point... You know, one way to think about it is like, hey, I need to only work 50% of the hours I used to be able to work at my job. Another way to think about it is maybe I work in a blue collar industry. Maybe I'm doing something where actually technology is not going to save me time. But now I can spend the few hours I have at night or on weekends and use this technology and expand the productivity that I would have had in those hours. So it works kind of both ways, right?

• 51:57Anthony Pompliano?

  It's like you can save time if you happen to work in an industry where you can implement this stuff in your day job. But also it now gives you kind of superpowers for nights and weekends if you embrace this and learn to use it. And so you mentioned this like entrepreneurship gene. I do think that entrepreneurship is kind of the end result. And if you think of things like Substack or YouTube or podcasts, like it has opened up a ton of opportunity for people from an entrepreneurship standpoint. The thing I actually see that's lacking is curiosity. Like, how many people saw ChatGPT five got released? It's been 24 or 48 hours. How many people have gone and tried it so far? Right? How many people have that?

• 52:41Anthony Pompliano?

  And I don't know if you can teach that, right? I think that there is something of that curiosity is somewhat innate in people. But the more we can stoke the curiosity, we can get people to realize, hey, wait, go use the tools. Go spend the time. As I think you've been telling people, it's incredibly important.

• 52:55Speaker 04

  Yeah, it's, I think the curiosity, I also think it's, it's the ability for people to have the patience to look stupid. And I just, you know, vulnerability is a very important quality, I think, as an entrepreneur. You have to be willing to fail. You have to be willing to ask the dumb questions. Everyone hears, there's no such thing as a dumb question, only not having questions is dumb. That's the great thing about ChatGPT is there's just no way, and I can describe it 100 times in terms of the way that I use it. I always say the same thing. You have to build a relationship with it. That'll satisfy your curiosity. It'll bring you back to the way you were as a child. For people that still have young children like you.

• 53:38Speaker 04

  It's amazing to watch, you know, a two-year-old's brain, a three-year-old's brain, a four-year-old's brain, they're asking. And questions and they're learning new things and you're and they're learning more than the faster than they'll ever learn in their lifetime. You want to keep that. And one of the ways to keep it is to know that you can learn everything now and you're not going to be siloed. You don't have to pick a major. You don't have to pick all this. So the age of polymaths, which is what we're entering where there'll be millions of Einsteins because of AGI and ASI. But it also allows human beings to learn everything about biology and everything about physics in a way that they like to creating the own if they like it via video, they can do it via video. It doesn't really matter. So I agree with you. Curiosity is one of the the the critical things

• 54:22Speaker 04

  along with creativity. Just have ideas. It is the golden age of ideas.

• 54:27Anthony Pompliano?

  Where can we send people to find you on the internet or watch your Sunday videos?

• 54:31Speaker 04

  X, LinkedIn, YouTube, Substack. I think that's all those. And for the institutional people there, 22V, they can find me there and I'm happy to spend time going through and I'll continue to say it is time for energy, energy, energy.

• 54:51Anthony Pompliano?

  I love it. All right, Jordy, thanks so much. We'll do it again next week.

• 54:54Speaker 04

  I love it.

• 54:54Anthony Pompliano?

  All right, Jordy, thanks so much. We'll do it again next week.

• 54:57Speaker 04

  We will. See you, pump.