Empress Dowager Cixi: from concubine to ruler of China

Greg Jenner is joined in 19th-century China by historian Professor Yangwen Zheng and comedian Sophie Duker to learn about the Qing dynasty ruler Empress Dowager Cixi. A contemporary of Queen Victoria, Cixi rose from low-ranked concubine to de facto ruler of China for nearly half a century, and lived through a dizzying array of events in China’s nineteenth-century history, including the Taiping Rebellion, the Opium Wars, and the Boxer Rebellion. Ruling through her son and then her nephew, Empress Dowager Cixi dominated late Qing dynasty China, and oversaw a variety of economic and military – if not political – reforms. This episode charts her life, from her entry into the Forbidden Palace as a teenager all the way to her death in 1908, taking in the politics and traditions of the Qing imperial court, her relationship with Emperor Xianfeng and her rival turned co-ruler Empress Dowager Ci'an, and her determined attempts to gain and maintain power. If you’re a fan of Chinese history, ruthless court politics, and complex women characters, you’ll love our episode on Empress Dowager Cixi. If you want to learn more about the history of China, listen to our episodes on the history of Kung Fu and the Terracotta Warriors. And for more fascinating characters with Sophie Duker, check out our episode on Ramesses the Great, naughty nun Benedetta Carlini and the Chevalier de Saint-Georges. You’re Dead To Me is the comedy podcast that takes history seriously. Every episode, Greg Jenner brings together the best names in history and comedy to learn and laugh about the past. Hosted by: Greg Jenner Research by: Emma Mitchell Written by: Emma Mitchell, Dr Emmie Rose Price-Goodfellow, Dr Emma Nagouse, and Greg Jenner Produced by: Dr Emmie Rose Price-Goodfellow and Greg Jenner Audio Producer: Steve Hankey Production Coordinator: Gill Huggett Senior Producer: Dr Emma Nagouse Executive Editor: Philip Sellars

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Greg Jenner?

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• 1:16Greg Jenner?

  Hello and welcome to You're Dead to Me, the Radio 4 comedy podcast that takes history seriously. My name is Greg Jenner. I'm a public historian, author and broadcaster. And today we're bouncing back to the Chinese Imperial Court and bowing our heads in deference as we learn all about one of the 19th century's most formidable rulers, Empress Dowager Su Shi. And to help us, we have two very special guests. In history corner, she's a professor of Chinese history at the University of Manchester, where she specializes in Ming and Qing era trade and economic history. She's the author of numerous books, including the recent Railway Imperialism in China, a political biography. It's Professor Yang Wenjun. Welcome, Yang Wen.

• 1:52Speaker 03

  Thank you.

• 1:53Greg Jenner?

  And in comedy corner, she's an award-winning comedian and writer. You'll recognize her from loads of TV, including her glorious victory on Taskmaster and maybe you've seen her recent sellout stand-up show, But Daddy, I Love Her. And you'll certainly remember her from our back catalogue, including episodes on Ashanti Ghana, The Naughty Nun Benedetta Carlini and The History of Coffee. It's Sophie Juca. Welcome back, Sophie.

• 2:13Speaker 03

  Yay, thank you. Xie xie? Oh, God, I didn't want to say it because I was like gearing up to it like a horse up to a jump and I was like, you're going to brutalize the most basic word in Chinese? Xie xie? Xie xie, yeah. Xie xie.

• 2:25Greg Jenner?

  That's pretty good.

• 2:26Speaker 03

  Yeah. Thank you, yeah, Gwen, thank you.

• 2:29Greg Jenner?

  Sophie, your seventh appearance on the show.

• 2:31Speaker 03

  Oh, boy.

• 2:32Greg Jenner?

  Yeah.

• 2:32Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 2:33Greg Jenner?

  I mean, you don't get a medal or anything, but, you know, thanks.

• 2:36Speaker 03

  Yeah. I feel like it's probably numerologically auspicious.

• 2:41Greg Jenner?

  Yeah, yeah, lucky number seven, sure. We've been all over the world together on the show. We've never done Chinese history with you.

• 2:47Speaker 03

  No.

• 2:47Greg Jenner?

  How are you with Chinese history?

• 2:49Speaker 03

  I think it's probably bad because I was educated in the UK.

• 2:52Greg Jenner?

  Yeah, did I?

• 2:52Speaker 03

  I don't know a lot about China. And what I know about China has probably been filtered through quite a problematic lens. But I did go to China recently. I actually, I say I went to China, I went through Shenzhen Airport and it was a great experience.

• 3:09Greg Jenner?

  Great.

• 3:10Speaker 03

  I loved it.

• 3:10Greg Jenner?

  Does that count as going to China?

• 3:11Speaker 03

  It doesn't, no.

• 3:13Speaker 04

  No, Shenzhen, Shenzhen really is not China, no.

• 3:17Greg Jenner?

  And does the name Empress Dowager Su Shi ring any bells?

• 3:21Speaker 03

  I think I've seen it written down. I think it's like, I've probably also heard it, but I haven't connected it because of the spelling, which in Roman, that is like C I X I.

• 3:31Greg Jenner?

  That's right. In English, we spell it C I X I.

• 3:33Speaker 03

  So I think it's probably hard to connect what I've heard to the name. I feel like she's one of these historical badass women, which maybe is slightly infantilising. She feels like she's an icon. I hope we're not going to learn that she's like a terrible villain now.

• 3:49Greg Jenner?

  We will see.

• 3:50Speaker 03

  We will see. She's a terrible villain.

• 3:51Greg Jenner?

  So, what do you know?

• 3:58Greg Jenner?

  And that brings us to the first segment of the podcast, the So What Do You Know? This is where I have a go at guessing what you, our lovely listener, might know about today's subject. And Empress Dowager Su Shi is known throughout East Asia, where she's the subject of any number of films, books and TV shows. But despite her decades in power, she's much less famous in the English-speaking world than, of course, her contemporary, Queen Victoria. Although Su Shi does have a brief appearance in Bernardo Bertolucci's 1987 film, The Last Emperor. So who was this woman who ruled China for nearly five decades? How did she cling to power for so long? And why was it never wise to accept one of her cakes? Let's find out.

• 4:39Greg Jenner?

  Professor Yang Wen, before we get into Su Shi's birth, could you please paint us a picture of China at the time?

• 4:46Speaker 04

  This was the Qing Dynasty.

• 4:48Greg Jenner?

  Okay.

• 4:48Speaker 04

  And they were from Manchuria. They are Manchu's, they're not Chinese. They are people who lived in between Korea and Mongolia and southern Siberia.

• 5:01Greg Jenner?

  Right.

• 5:02Speaker 04

  So they roam around. They conquered China in 1644. It's amazing, 500,000 people came down to China to conquer this country of 120 million.

• 5:13Greg Jenner?

  Wow.

• 5:14Speaker 04

  They adopted themselves, they kind of what we call synocised, they became Chinese in a way. Trying as much to keep their own customs and culturs and everything. They ruled China from 1644 to 1911, until the revolution, two and a half years after the Empress Dowager died.

• 5:35Greg Jenner?

  Right.

• 5:35Speaker 04

  So the revolution, she died in November 1908, and the revolution was in September, October 1911. So within three years of her death, so you could see how important she was.

• 5:47Greg Jenner?

  Yeah, so she's the last Manchu, it's the last of the Qing Dynasty.

• 5:49Speaker 04

  Yeah, because after her is the little boy, the last emperor.

• 5:52Greg Jenner?

  Yeah.

• 5:52Speaker 04

  Yeah. What does synocised mean? It's a special word in our field to denote how China indigenised foreigners.

• 6:04Greg Jenner?

  Right.

• 6:05Speaker 04

  Starting with people like Matteo Ricci, you know, the Jesuit missionaries who goes to China, wear Chinese clothes and speak Chinese. So by conquering China, the Manchu's have lost their own homeland and cultural and everything. Nobody speaks Manchu today.

• 6:21Greg Jenner?

  Right. And the centre of power would be what we now call Beijing.

• 6:25Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 6:25Greg Jenner?

  But was called Peking then.

• 6:27Speaker 04

  Peking, yes.

• 6:28Greg Jenner?

  Yeah.

• 6:28Speaker 04

  And this other name, Beiping as well, so there's different names.

• 6:32Greg Jenner?

  And they lived, what was their palace like? What was it called?

• 6:34Speaker 04

  Forbidden City.

• 6:36Greg Jenner?

  Forbidden for whom?

• 6:38Speaker 04

  The ordinary people.

• 6:39Greg Jenner?

  Ah, Sophie.

• 6:40Speaker 04

  Okay, yeah, yeah, you and me.

• 6:42Greg Jenner?

  They've been on the throne for four centuries, the start of our story.

• 6:45Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 6:46Greg Jenner?

  And Sophie, given that Su Shi ends up ruling China for this five decades' stretch, what kind of family do you think she comes from?

• 6:54Speaker 03

  Or a powerful family, a very.

• 6:58Greg Jenner?

  In terms of what? In terms of money, power, military? What's your vibe?

• 7:02Speaker 03

  I'm gonna say military because it feels like, I think Manchu people currently are a minority in Chi- in China, within China, but like it was also, you said a small army that sort of conquered China. So I feel like they must have been a powerful military.

• 7:19Speaker 04

  Yeah, it's a good guess.

• 7:20Greg Jenner?

  Why?

• 7:21Speaker 04

  Yes, except, except because the Manchu warriors who conquered China in sixteen twenty, sixteen thirty and sixteen forties, by the eighteen nineteenth century, they're gone.

• 7:36Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 7:36Greg Jenner?

  Oh.

• 7:37Speaker 04

  So their children have been synthesized.

• 7:40Greg Jenner?

  Yeah.

• 7:41Speaker 04

  They didn't have to work because they get handouts from the government. So that's why we have the problem of opium smoking.

• 7:49Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 7:50Speaker 04

  Um, of going to brothels. So they became decadent.

• 7:54Greg Jenner?

  So she's father is a government official. I mean, what, what was his title? What would he, what level of power would he have had?

• 8:01Speaker 04

  Yeah, so the children of the first, second generation warriors, because after they came down to conquer China, they also went to conquer Central Asia.

• 8:10Greg Jenner?

  Hmm.

• 8:11Speaker 04

  Xinjiang, you know, the Uighurs and Tibet.

• 8:13Greg Jenner?

  Yeah.

• 8:14Speaker 04

  So the first few generations were warriors. After that, most of the children served in the civil administration.

• 8:22Greg Jenner?

  Okay.

• 8:22Speaker 04

  By her father, it was ba- basically mid-level, provincial, very low. You, yeah, not very high in the echelon.

• 8:31Greg Jenner?

  Yeah.

• 8:32Speaker 04

  In the, in the political echelon.

• 8:33Greg Jenner?

  So he's sort of a bureaucrat, is that right?

• 8:35Speaker 04

  He's a bureaucrat and I would say that explains her drive to rise up.

• 8:40Greg Jenner?

  Right.

• 8:41Speaker 04

  Yeah, because his family counts on her.

• 8:43Greg Jenner?

  Right. I've called her Su Shi. That's not really her name in childhood or her youth, is it?

• 8:50Speaker 04

  Yeah, this is her reign title, reign.

• 8:52Greg Jenner?

  Right, okay. So what's, what's her dad call her? What's her, what do her family call her?

• 8:56Speaker 04

  Well, you know, there's a lot of controversy about her. She's like a controversial character. There's lots of debates about where she was born, what was her nickname, and some people think it's orchid girl.

• 9:09Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 9:10Speaker 04

  Lanner.

• 9:11Greg Jenner?

  That's quite nice.

• 9:12Speaker 04

  Yeah, so because, because when she went to the court and taken as a concubine by the emperor.

• 9:19Greg Jenner?

  Hmm.

• 9:19Speaker 04

  Her title was Lady Lan.

• 9:22Speaker 03

  Lady Lan, which means orchid?

• 9:24Speaker 04

  Yeah, Lan, Lan, L A N is orchid in, in, in Chinese. And it's very common for Chinese people to name girls that are after flowers.

• 9:34Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 9:35Greg Jenner?

  Yeah, that, that's, that's a lovely name, isn't it?

• 9:37Speaker 03

  It's nice.

• 9:38Greg Jenner?

  Her childhood, she's educated, she can read and write.

• 9:40Speaker 04

  Yeah, so even though she's, her father is mid-level, but they're Manchu, remember Manchu are overlords.

• 9:49Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 9:49Speaker 04

  Yeah, so no matter how low you are as a Manchu, you're always higher than the Chinese.

• 9:56Greg Jenner?

  I see.

• 9:57Speaker 04

  Yes, I would say she had a very good upbringing because she was able to read and write, which later is going to come into her.

• 10:05Greg Jenner?

  Absolutely.

• 10:05Speaker 04

  Uh, without, you know, a lot of the concubines couldn't read and write much.

• 10:10Greg Jenner?

  I see.

• 10:11Speaker 04

  Uh, yeah, so she was educated in all these arts and play, Pepsi cord, paint, she's a very good painter.

• 10:18Greg Jenner?

  Wow.

• 10:18Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 10:18Speaker 04

  And she could sing. So in a way, they were bringing her up, probably in the hope that she will marry up.

• 10:27Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 10:28Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 10:29Greg Jenner?

  Unfortunately, her father was caught taking bribes, Sophie.

• 10:32Speaker 03

  Hey.

• 10:34Greg Jenner?

  He was caught, his hand in the cookie jar.

• 10:36Speaker 03

  Yeah, okay.

• 10:37Greg Jenner?

  So, uh, he, he lost his job in eighteen fifty-one, when she was sixteen, they returned to Beijing and he died, he fell ill and died.

• 10:44Speaker 03

  Of shame?

• 10:45Greg Jenner?

  Of, of maybe of shame.

• 10:46Speaker 03

  Probably just of illness.

• 10:47Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 10:48Greg Jenner?

  May likely, yeah.

• 10:49Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 10:49Greg Jenner?

  Um, so an old family friend had to send them money for the funeral costs, so it feels like they're on hard times.

• 10:55Speaker 04

  They were, they were, that's why, that's why it's important to send her and her sister, both of them to, to the beauty contest.

• 11:02Greg Jenner?

  Okay.

• 11:02Speaker 04

  You know.

• 11:02Greg Jenner?

  Oh, okay, I was gonna say, so she's sixteen years old, Sophie. What were you like at sixteen? Uh, were you, did you move to the big city? Were you ready for, to sort of, you know,

• 11:10Speaker 03

  Uh.

• 11:10Greg Jenner?

  Strike out?

• 11:11Speaker 03

  I mean, I was living in, on the outskirts of the big city, a place called High Barnet, which is where Oliver Twist met the Artful Dodger, not fat.

• 11:20Speaker 03

  Yeah, I was a.

• 11:24Speaker 03

  I was making ventures into the big city. I was drinking like Alcopops in like Finsbury Park. But I don't think I was setting forth to be the pride or like the hope of my family. I don't think I was entering any beauty contests. I had quite bad acne.

• 11:38Greg Jenner?

  Ditto, yeah.

• 11:39Speaker 03

  Yeah, it was a tough time.

• 11:41Greg Jenner?

  It's a tough time sixteen. Yeah, okay. So she, what is this next stage for age sixteen? Does she go to Beijing and try and become a consort? Is that the route?

• 11:51Speaker 04

  Yeah, so what happens is every two or three years, the court will have an order, idiot, saying Manchu families who have girls between thirteen and sixteen or seventeen, twelve, that age, must send them to the court to be selected. It's like a beauty contest. So at local levels, oh no, she's too ugly. Oh, yes, she goes forward. So it's a level by level elimination. So by the time you get to the imperial court.

• 12:21Greg Jenner?

  Miss Manchu.

• 12:22Speaker 04

  Yeah, so, yeah, yeah, it means Manchu, it's a beauty contest.

• 12:25Greg Jenner?

  Yeah, okay.

• 12:26Speaker 04

  But the lucky ones would be reserved for the emperor. And layer by layer, prince and then servants, lady in waiting.

• 12:35Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 12:36Greg Jenner?

  Wow.

• 12:37Speaker 04

  So three levels.

• 12:38Greg Jenner?

  Very young though. I mean, she's sixteen, but you said thirteen, some of those girls, that's way too young.

• 12:42Speaker 04

  Oh, yes. There's thirteen, one girl became empress in age thirteen. Yeah, the emperor was fourteen.

• 12:48Speaker 03

  I mean, it's like, I know that the actual reality is probably quite bleak in some cases, but I feel like it's such an amazing setting for a YA novel. I bet there's so many YA's written about this.

• 12:58Greg Jenner?

  It definitely is, isn't it? Absolutely.

• 13:00Speaker 04

  Yeah, so you go through that and there are families who don't want their girls to go through that.

• 13:06Greg Jenner?

  Okay.

• 13:06Speaker 04

  Yeah, so because you're stuck in the palace forever.

• 13:10Greg Jenner?

  In the Forbidden City, in the palace.

• 13:11Speaker 03

  And you can't visit your family.

• 13:13Speaker 04

  Yeah, and if the emperor never favors you, have a child, then you'll die like a virgin in the palace. All your life, you're stuck there.

• 13:22Greg Jenner?

  Even into old age, there's no sort of age cap. They don't.

• 13:25Speaker 04

  No, no, no.

• 13:25Greg Jenner?

  Really? Okay.

• 13:26Speaker 04

  You're stuck.

• 13:27Greg Jenner?

  Classic film Sophie's Choice. I'm going to turn to you Sophie. It's not, I mean, it's not a great list of options for Laner, yeah?

• 13:34Speaker 03

  I mean, if you're hot, you're like.

• 13:36Greg Jenner?

  Sure.

• 13:36Speaker 03

  You're banking on that.

• 13:37Greg Jenner?

  I never had that. Sadly, I've never traded on my hotness. So we have a 16-year-old going to court and she is selected?

• 13:45Speaker 04

  Yes, and so was her sister.

• 13:47Greg Jenner?

  Oh, really?

• 13:48Speaker 04

  Younger sister, but she was given to a prince. So she was given to the brother of the emperor. So she was pretty too.

• 13:57Greg Jenner?

  She's going for the top dog, right? She wants to be the emperor's concubine.

• 14:02Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 14:03Greg Jenner?

  So what's the competition? How does it work?

• 14:05Speaker 04

  So she, when she was chosen, she actually, because there are nine ranks.

• 14:12Speaker 03

  Okay. Nine ranks of empress concubine?

• 14:15Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 14:16Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 14:16Speaker 04

  So there's only one empress, but the rest are senior, senior, you know, all the sorts of titles. So she actually starts at rank six out of nine. So she's.

• 14:26Speaker 03

  Nine.

• 14:27Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 14:28Speaker 03

  It's like sex and maths.

• 14:30Speaker 04

  The thing is, this actually correlates to the stature of your family.

• 14:37Greg Jenner?

  Okay.

• 14:37Speaker 04

  So the empress at that time was also chosen, that she came from an extremely powerful political family. So the empress actually is a political marriage.

• 14:50Greg Jenner?

  Okay.

• 14:51Speaker 04

  Because the Qing court needs them, right? So if she started at rank six, I'm not sure whether they need, you know, they need her family, but her father died anyways.

• 15:02Greg Jenner?

  How many, how many people in a rank? How many, how many rivals does she have in rank six?

• 15:08Speaker 04

  Ah, there are empress who had 50.

• 15:11Greg Jenner?

  Whoa.

• 15:12Speaker 04

  Yeah, this, Shen Feng didn't have that many because he was very young. He had 11 registered records, you know, there are records you can look at. He had 11 registered. Concubines, in addition to the empress.

• 15:27Greg Jenner?

  We're calling her Lady Lan, but she then gets known as Noble Lady Lan.

• 15:30Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 15:31Greg Jenner?

  This is her first promotion.

• 15:32Speaker 04

  Yes, yeah. She goes up and up and we say in Chinese, the ladder of success for women is a son.

• 15:41Greg Jenner?

  Oh, okay.

• 15:41Speaker 04

  So she had a son.

• 15:43Greg Jenner?

  Ah, we'll get to that, we'll get to that.

• 15:44Speaker 03

  And is her promotion completely at the discretion of the emperor?

• 15:48Greg Jenner?

  Yes, well, I was going to ask you, Sophie, I mean, you know, if you were starting on level six of nine.

• 15:53Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 15:53Greg Jenner?

  Uh, how would you try and stand out amongst your competition? There's, you know, there's 10 other girls there.

• 15:58Speaker 03

  10 other girls and I'm ranked at six. This feels very much like a lot of TikTok format. The emperor's gonna pop a balloon if he doesn't like me. I think, I think I would be like, okay, everyone, everyone here is really pretty.

• 16:13Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 16:14Speaker 03

  Maybe I've got like an additional, maybe I can soothe him.

• 16:16Greg Jenner?

  Soothe, okay.

• 16:18Speaker 03

  Like I can sing, like that's, I'm saying hypothetically, I would do that if I was to sing, it would not be soothing. But maybe I would like sort of try and show him some of what I've learned outside so that he knows that I'm intelligent and useful as well as pretty.

• 16:32Greg Jenner?

  Nice.

• 16:33Speaker 03

  Or, you know, just have a son.

• 16:37Greg Jenner?

  Was Sophie correct? Do we know how Lana or, or Lady Lan as she's known, how does she grab the emperor's attention?

• 16:45Speaker 04

  She was a smart girl.

• 16:47Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 16:48Speaker 04

  She observed, she studied.

• 16:50Speaker 03

  You're gonna say she did something terrible.

• 16:53Speaker 04

  She was a politician, she knew how to cultivate people. So I think what stood her out among the Manchu girls, what made her different is because she grew up in southern China where her father served. She had this air of well brought up, well educated Chinese because, you know, there's, there's this prejudice in China against the Manchus because where they're horsemen, hunters, gatherers, they're not literate, they're not educated. But southern Chinese, like where I came from, you know, we're cultural, there are lots of things. She's talented, but then you need to let the emperor know that you are different from other Manchu girls.

• 17:36Speaker 04

  She racked her brain, basically, trying to figure out where, how the emperor goes to work.

• 17:41Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 17:42Speaker 04

  You know.

• 17:43Greg Jenner?

  So she's learning his routine.

• 17:45Speaker 04

  He's learning his routine and maybe sing or suddenly pop up along the route and then grab, because you have to do that.

• 17:53Greg Jenner?

  Okay, the moment comes to the emperor has chosen her for a nighttime activity, let's say. He wants to spend the night with her. Sophie, do you know what the choosing process involves for her? She doesn't know she's been selected until suddenly someone knocks on the door. Do you know what happens to her and that process?

• 18:07Speaker 03

  I think the funniest thing would be for her to be like sort of bundled into a sack. But I don't think.

• 18:13Greg Jenner?

  That is literally what happens.

• 18:14Speaker 03

  Is that what happens? That is very funny. Well done.

• 18:18Greg Jenner?

  They strip her naked, they bind her into a sack and they drag her into the emperor's quarters.

• 18:22Speaker 04

  After lunch, the emperor will be presented with a tray with all the girls.

• 18:27Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 18:27Speaker 04

  All your concubines, you have to choose.

• 18:29Speaker 03

  But like, not literally a tray.

• 18:31Greg Jenner?

  No, they're not on the tray.

• 18:32Speaker 03

  Not a binder of women.

• 18:33Speaker 04

  Their name.

• 18:33Greg Jenner?

  Yeah, it's a binder of women.

• 18:35Speaker 04

  Their name on the tray. And if there's one person, one girl you want to spend the night with, you turn it around.

• 18:43Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 18:44Speaker 04

  And then the eunuchs would go and she would have to go through a whole process of bathing, makeup and all that.

• 18:50Greg Jenner?

  Right.

• 18:50Speaker 04

  And when evening comes, she's rode into a duvet.

• 18:55Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 18:55Speaker 04

  And carried into the emperor's bed chamber. Now, there's also the case where if the emperor really likes you, he can go to your palace as well. Because remember the Forbidden City in the back, they're all palaces for all the concubines.

• 19:12Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 19:12Speaker 04

  Yeah, so there's two ways, but the normal way is you're carried.

• 19:16Speaker 03

  You're bundled in the same way, taken to him.

• 19:18Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 19:18Greg Jenner?

  Amazing.

• 19:19Speaker 03

  It's a great system. I mean, I'm hoping there are no ITV development producers listening to this.

• 19:24Greg Jenner?

  I was literally, I was gonna say, this is a dating show, right? You know, that he chooses the name, he turns it over and then a girl is kidnapped and brought to his room. And presumably the other girls are gutted that they haven't been chosen. Are they sort of peering out of their door noticing?

• 19:38Speaker 04

  Oh, absolutely. There's gossip, conspiracy, all the, every day. Oh my God, she went, who was that last night? I mean, there's loads of things going on.

• 19:47Greg Jenner?

  Okay, so presumably, a young when Lady Lan charms the emperor, because she ends up in, you know, obviously with a scenic career. So she charms the emperor. Can you remind me of his name? Sorry, what was the emperor's name?

• 19:59Speaker 04

  Xianfeng.

• 20:00Greg Jenner?

  Xianfeng, okay.

• 20:01Speaker 04

  Xianfeng, yeah.

• 20:02Greg Jenner?

  Sorry, thank you. Xianfeng, okay. He sort of chooses her and she becomes his favorite. Is that fair? By sort of age nineteen or so, she's the top of the concubines?

• 20:10Speaker 04

  In a way. The only difference is that she gave birth to a son.

• 20:14Greg Jenner?

  Ah, okay.

• 20:15Speaker 04

  On the twenty-seventh of April eighteen fifty-six, gave birth to a son called Zai Cun. With the son, she can walk with her head high.

• 20:26Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 20:26Speaker 04

  You know, sometimes you have children, you have a child, it doesn't mean you get to be noble lady.

• 20:31Greg Jenner?

  Oh, really?

• 20:32Speaker 04

  No, no, no.

• 20:33Speaker 03

  So she was kind of exceptional?

• 20:34Speaker 04

  Yes, she was like rocketing, you know, skyrocketing, just being promoted very high. So she knew. And then her talent helped at this point, because it's mid eighteen fifty, we have conflicts, war coming, the Taiping Rebellion, the domestic rebels, and the British coming, Second Opium War, the Russians were annexing land in the north. So it's a lot of trouble. The young emperor really was not fit for the job.

• 21:05Greg Jenner?

  Yeah, he's only a few years older than her, isn't he?

• 21:06Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 21:07Greg Jenner?

  He's in his early twenties, yeah.

• 21:08Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 21:09Greg Jenner?

  And yes, she is promoted. And every time she's promoted, she gets a new name.

• 21:12Speaker 03

  Oh.

• 21:13Greg Jenner?

  So she goes from Lan Er to Lady Lan, then she becomes Concubine Yi.

• 21:16Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 21:17Speaker 03

  Lady Yi.

• 21:18Greg Jenner?

  Then when she has a child, Concubine Yi, a year later, she gets elevated to the fourth rank, becomes Consort Yi.

• 21:23Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 21:23Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 21:24Greg Jenner?

  And then one year later, she becomes Noble Consort Yi, and she goes to the third level. So she started at level six, and she goes to level three.

• 21:31Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 21:32Greg Jenner?

  Which is as high as you can go.

• 21:33Speaker 04

  Phenomenal.

• 21:34Greg Jenner?

  Yeah.

• 21:34Speaker 04

  Unless you be, she can't be Empress, because the Empress was already there. The Empress is like the first wife you never touch.

• 21:41Greg Jenner?

  Right.

• 21:42Speaker 03

  You can't touch her.

• 21:43Speaker 04

  Yeah, you can't touch her, because it's a political marriage.

• 21:45Greg Jenner?

  Yeah.

• 21:45Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 21:45Greg Jenner?

  So by the age of twenty-one, she has had the names Lan Er, Lady Lan, Concubine Yi, Consort Yi, Noble Consort Yi. She's had more eras than Taylor Swift.

• 21:54Speaker 03

  Oh, my God.

• 21:56Greg Jenner?

  Just constantly name changing.

• 21:58Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 21:58Speaker 03

  I think you should never stop reinventing yourself.

• 22:00Greg Jenner?

  Yeah.

• 22:01Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 22:01Greg Jenner?

  Yeah, the model.

• 22:02Speaker 03

  I mean, you are like eight different people before you turn 25.

• 22:06Speaker 03

  Yeah, she's just professionalized that.

• 22:07Greg Jenner?

  Yeah, so she's a mum at 21, mum to the prince. And then you you mentioned these these sort of these wars, this turmoil.

• 22:13Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 22:14Greg Jenner?

  This is a huge ongoing problem. So the opium wars, there are two.

• 22:19Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 22:19Greg Jenner?

  One of them had broken out when she was a child.

• 22:21Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah.

• 22:22Greg Jenner?

  That's the first opium war.

• 22:23Speaker 04

  Yeah, and in 1856, the second opium war broke out. And this was at the time, there was another huge rebellion, the Christianity inspired rebellion in China. So the Shangfeng Emperor in his twenties was battered by both domestic rebellion and and foreign invasion.

• 22:44Greg Jenner?

  Yeah.

• 22:44Speaker 04

  And with the Russians encroaching in northeast China, in his homeland, Nigeria. So he really couldn't handle all this. So instead of actually trying to do his job, you know what he did? He took to opium himself.

• 22:58Greg Jenner?

  Ah.

• 22:58Speaker 04

  He he buried himself in opium smoking, in prostitutes, entertaining, in opera. He loved opera.

• 23:06Greg Jenner?

  Okay.

• 23:06Speaker 03

  A list of three vices.

• 23:09Speaker 04

  Rock and roll of the day.

• 23:10Greg Jenner?

  The first two understandable, third one, all right.

• 23:12Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 23:14Speaker 04

  No, picking up was rock and roll of the day.

• 23:16Greg Jenner?

  Okay, fair enough.

• 23:17Speaker 04

  For the rich.

• 23:18Greg Jenner?

  So during this time, the emperor is struggling and he's turning to drugs, which means presumably someone needs to run the show.

• 23:23Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 23:24Greg Jenner?

  And we have a young lady who going, I'll do it.

• 23:26Speaker 04

  Yeah, so she began by, she goes into his office and there's a stacks of documents he needs to go over and and decide. You know, somebody, you know, we need 30 million pounds, whatever, tails and for the rebels. And there's a disaster here, the people are dying, right? So there are things that he needs to do to decide, but he's like, oh. You know, he's just not up to it.

• 23:49Greg Jenner?

  Yeah.

• 23:49Speaker 04

  And guess who's up to it?

• 23:51Greg Jenner?

  Yeah, it's not the Empress who says, I'll do it.

• 23:53Speaker 03

  It's level three.

• 23:54Greg Jenner?

  Level three.

• 23:55Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 23:55Speaker 03

  Oh, my God.

• 23:56Greg Jenner?

  Consort.

• 23:56Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 23:57Greg Jenner?

  Consort. Consort Yi.

• 23:58Speaker 04

  Consort Yi, and she loved doing this.

• 24:00Greg Jenner?

  Okay, so she's learning on the job.

• 24:02Speaker 04

  She's learning on the job, and she loves it.

• 24:04Greg Jenner?

  Yeah, and of course, they are defeated in the Second Opium War. The treaty is forced upon them in the Kowloon Peninsula and so on. So it's gone really wrong. And then it goes even worse. So, Fei, do you know what happens to the Emperor?

• 24:16Speaker 03

  He gets, uh, real sick from opium.

• 24:19Greg Jenner?

  Yeah.

• 24:19Speaker 03

  Gets real.

• 24:20Greg Jenner?

  Real sick, and then he gets as sick as you can get. He gets dead.

• 24:23Speaker 03

  He gets dead. As sick as that.

• 24:25Greg Jenner?

  Yeah, he died in eighteen sixty-one.

• 24:28Speaker 03

  Oh, no.

• 24:28Greg Jenner?

  Which presumably leaves our Lady Consort Yi in serious trouble, you think, right?

• 24:33Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah, because she's not in favor anymore.

• 24:36Greg Jenner?

  There's no more Emperor in favor. But of course, she does have a son.

• 24:39Speaker 03

  Oh, who is the only heir.

• 24:41Greg Jenner?

  The only heir. So is this where, Yangwen, we get now another name change? We finally get to meet Sir Yi?

• 24:48Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 24:49Greg Jenner?

  Hooray. Okay.

• 24:50Speaker 03

  Final form.

• 24:51Greg Jenner?

  Final form. Actually, no, there's more to come.

• 24:56Greg Jenner?

  So she now is the Regent on behalf of her little boy?

• 25:00Speaker 04

  Yeah, so what happens? Because the boy is the only heir, only son, so he gets to be Emperor. Now, the original Empress becomes Empress Dowager.

• 25:10Greg Jenner?

  Right, okay.

• 25:11Speaker 04

  But because she is the mother of the six-year-old boy, so she is also elevated to Empress Dowager.

• 25:19Greg Jenner?

  We've got two.

• 25:19Speaker 03

  Two dowagers.

• 25:20Speaker 04

  And it's not uncommon in Chinese history.

• 25:23Greg Jenner?

  Really?

• 25:23Speaker 04

  When the Empress' mother, biological mother, and the real Emp... Because remember, real Empress, you don't touch her. She's always there.

• 25:32Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 25:33Speaker 04

  So, but then, Su Shi is below the Empress Dowager.

• 25:37Greg Jenner?

  So Empress Dowager number one is Shu An?

• 25:39Speaker 04

  Shu An, yes.

• 25:40Greg Jenner?

  Okay, and Empress Dowager number two is our Lady Lan, turned Yi, turned Su Shi. Yeah.

• 25:47Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 25:48Greg Jenner?

  Wow.

• 25:49Speaker 03

  Wow, it's a lot of extended family.

• 25:50Greg Jenner?

  It's a lot of extended family. And also, two women who now have to join forces to run the show. But do they have the same values and, yeah?

• 25:58Speaker 03

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 25:59Greg Jenner?

  I mean, there's a lovely thing. They, they sleep on different parts of the palace. Can you tell us what their nickname is?

• 26:05Speaker 04

  Yeah, originally, the, the east is bigger than the west.

• 26:09Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 26:10Speaker 04

  So the Empress and the...

• 26:13Speaker 04

  The heir to the throne always lives in the palace in the east. That's why the real Empress Dowager is called East Empress Dowager. And then Su Shi.

• 26:24Greg Jenner?

  Is the west.

• 26:25Speaker 04

  It's the West Empress Dowager.

• 26:27Greg Jenner?

  I mean, Su Shi Westside sounds like a 90s rapper. I'm sure she tracks a Tupac.

• 26:32Speaker 03

  It really does, yeah. It's also, it's giving wicked.

• 26:35Greg Jenner?

  It's giving wicked, yeah. So the dying emperor had left Zhu An with a secret instruction. So his, his empress, he'd left with a secret instruction concerning the other lady. Do you know what that instruction was?

• 26:49Speaker 03

  Wait, so he left it for classic, his, his top wife.

• 26:52Greg Jenner?

  His empress, yeah.

• 26:52Speaker 03

  A secret instruction.

• 26:53Greg Jenner?

  Yeah, regards to his top concubine.

• 26:56Speaker 03

  Oh. Wow, okay. Don't let her get with anyone else.

• 27:03Greg Jenner?

  Oh, okay.

• 27:03Speaker 03

  Get married to anyone else.

• 27:04Greg Jenner?

  Okay, so you think it's a sort of jealousy thing. She can't remarried and they're more boyfriends.

• 27:07Speaker 03

  Yeah, but I think that probably applies by default to both of them.

• 27:10Greg Jenner?

  It's a bit more extreme than that, Yangwen.

• 27:11Speaker 04

  So before the emperor died, he actually realized this woman is.

• 27:18Speaker 03

  Orotting the show.

• 27:19Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 27:20Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 27:20Speaker 04

  So one of his ministers actually advised him to have her killed.

• 27:26Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 27:26Speaker 04

  You know, there is this tradition in Chinese history when the boy is going to be heir apparent and become future emperor, the mother is killed.

• 27:35Greg Jenner?

  Wow.

• 27:36Speaker 04

  To prevent the mother's family to become too strong.

• 27:40Greg Jenner?

  Okay.

• 27:41Speaker 04

  Yeah, too powerful. And there has been cases in history where the mother's family took over.

• 27:46Greg Jenner?

  So the instruction to Zhu An is if, if there's any doubt, kill her.

• 27:51Speaker 04

  You can, you have my, you know, handwritten.

• 27:54Speaker 03

  Kill the Empress of the West.

• 27:55Greg Jenner?

  Yeah, yes.

• 27:56Speaker 04

  Kill the West Emperor.

• 27:57Greg Jenner?

  Surprisingly, Yangwen, the opposite happens. The two women team up, right?

• 28:01Speaker 04

  They did.

• 28:02Greg Jenner?

  They've become a kind of double act.

• 28:03Speaker 03

  Love that.

• 28:04Greg Jenner?

  Yeah.

• 28:05Speaker 03

  Yeah, oh.

• 28:05Greg Jenner?

  The Empress is Dowager.

• 28:07Speaker 04

  Yeah, Empress Dowagers.

• 28:09Greg Jenner?

  Dowagers, yeah, okay.

• 28:10Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 28:10Greg Jenner?

  So how does that work? Who makes decisions? Or do they both have to agree on a decision?

• 28:15Speaker 04

  Yes, they do.

• 28:16Greg Jenner?

  Right.

• 28:16Speaker 04

  Yeah, so in the beginning, they worked actually like a good team because they have common interest, because the emperor had appointed an agency of eight ministers, eight men.

• 28:30Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 28:30Speaker 04

  These eight men didn't treat these two women.

• 28:34Speaker 03

  Very well.

• 28:35Speaker 04

  As an equal.

• 28:36Greg Jenner?

  Right.

• 28:36Speaker 04

  Of course you don't like that, right? It's like, what? I'm Empress Dowager and you're treating me like this?

• 28:41Greg Jenner?

  Yeah. And they launched a bit of a coup?

• 28:43Speaker 04

  Yes, yes.

• 28:44Speaker 03

  So they get rid of the ministers?

• 28:45Greg Jenner?

  They get rid of the ministers.

• 28:46Speaker 03

  Amazing. This is great.

• 28:49Speaker 04

  This is great.

• 28:51Speaker 03

  Oh, no.

• 28:51Greg Jenner?

  At the start of the episode, you said a bit of a boss lady vibes.

• 28:54Speaker 03

  A badass, yeah.

• 28:55Greg Jenner?

  Yeah.

• 28:55Speaker 03

  Collaboration.

• 28:56Greg Jenner?

  Yeah.

• 28:56Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 28:57Greg Jenner?

  So far, how do you feel about her? I mean, she's obviously risen up.

• 29:02Speaker 03

  I feel positive about her. I feel like she's enterprising.

• 29:04Greg Jenner?

  Yes.

• 29:05Speaker 03

  I feel like she's, you know, evaded at least one murder plot.

• 29:08Greg Jenner?

  Yes.

• 29:09Speaker 03

  She's done right by her family. She's had a son.

• 29:12Greg Jenner?

  So far, you're on the fifth. You're on board.

• 29:14Speaker 03

  I'm on board.

• 29:14Greg Jenner?

  Okay, we'll check back in later because maybe it changes.

• 29:20Speaker 05

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• 30:32Speaker 06

  Welcome to The Haunted Library. Join me, Colin Morgan, as I read Frankenstein by Mary Shelley. A story of science and ambition, loneliness and longing, and what it truly means to be human.

• 30:51Speaker 06

  Listen to The Haunted Library wherever you get your podcasts, or find us on YouTube.

• 31:00Greg Jenner?

  So the two women are running China together.

• 31:03Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 31:04Greg Jenner?

  This power sharing, it's fine while the emperor is a boy. That, you know, Cichun, he's small, he's six, he's, he's, he's little, he doesn't understand the world.

• 31:11Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 31:11Greg Jenner?

  Surely when he becomes thirteen or fourteen, he's going to want to get rid of his mum and his step mum, or whatever it is, he's gonna wanna go solo.

• 31:20Speaker 04

  So because he was the only boy, he was really spoiled.

• 31:26Greg Jenner?

  Yeah.

• 31:26Speaker 04

  By both Empress Dowager. So when he was growing up and time for him to take over, he really was not well-prepared for the job. You know, he was not a good student, so he didn't, you know, he didn't want to learn and nobody pushes him.

• 31:45Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah.

• 31:46Speaker 04

  So he wasn't a good emperor, and then he rushes into many decisions. He gets, you know, because, can you imagine eighteen years old? Gee, I'm emperor, I can do anything, right? He fires ministers without consulting his, his two mothers.

• 32:02Greg Jenner?

  Right.

• 32:03Speaker 04

  And of course, it doesn't work that way.

• 32:06Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 32:06Speaker 04

  And he had a much better relationship with Cuan.

• 32:11Speaker 03

  That is biological mother.

• 32:13Speaker 04

  Than his biological mother.

• 32:14Greg Jenner?

  Oh, really?

• 32:15Speaker 04

  Because the biological mother is a dominating figure.

• 32:18Greg Jenner?

  Okay.

• 32:18Speaker 04

  Yeah, she would, she would slap him.

• 32:21Greg Jenner?

  She slapped him?

• 32:22Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah.

• 32:22Greg Jenner?

  Wow.

• 32:23Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 32:24Speaker 04

  And she would slap him with the ruler in China. If you failed the exam or didn't do your homework, you stuck your hands out, and the teacher or your mother can use the ruler to beat you.

• 32:34Greg Jenner?

  He's the emperor of China.

• 32:35Speaker 04

  Yes, I know.

• 32:36Speaker 03

  She's meeting the ruler with a ruler.

• 32:38Greg Jenner?

  Yay, there you go. That's why we book you.

• 32:42Speaker 03

  One pun for herself.

• 32:43Speaker 04

  So she had a, he had a much better relationship with the Empress Dowager Tsu An, rather than his own biological mother.

• 32:51Greg Jenner?

  And he comes of age in 1872, he's gonna take the imperial name Tong Xi.

• 32:56Speaker 04

  Tong Xi, yes.

• 32:56Greg Jenner?

  Yeah, Tong Xi. But Su Shi Shi stalls him, she won't hand him full power yet. Do you know what she demands of him first?

• 33:03Speaker 03

  He has to get married.

• 33:06Greg Jenner?

  Yes, very good.

• 33:07Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 33:08Greg Jenner?

  You've got good instincts here, Sophie.

• 33:10Speaker 03

  I don't have mothers-in-law.

• 33:12Speaker 03

  Future mothers-in-law.

• 33:14Greg Jenner?

  Yes, she demands you must get married first. And so what, they choose the girls for him?

• 33:18Speaker 04

  Ah, that comes the real interesting story.

• 33:21Greg Jenner?

  Okay.

• 33:21Speaker 04

  Because you have the beauty contest.

• 33:23Greg Jenner?

  Okay, yeah.

• 33:23Speaker 04

  Right? And he's 18 years old.

• 33:25Greg Jenner?

  Miss Manchu, yeah.

• 33:26Speaker 04

  Yeah, he go pops around, oh yeah, all those nice little good-looking girls. And then he chose the one he likes. It's also the one that the Empress Tsu An likes.

• 33:39Greg Jenner?

  Right.

• 33:39Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 33:39Speaker 04

  It's a ranking family, political marriage, but this is a pretty girl, very well educated, knew how to be empress and all that. You know, the reason Su Shi want her son to marry is because she wants to have a spy.

• 33:54Greg Jenner?

  Right.

• 33:55Speaker 04

  To, to watch him, to control him. So he didn't choose the one his own mother likes. That's the origin of all the problems to come.

• 34:05Greg Jenner?

  It's another reality TV show, I think.

• 34:07Speaker 04

  It is totally another show.

• 34:09Greg Jenner?

  That was your Date Decider, I think we should call it. So things get a little bit tense, don't they? And by 1874, the emperor, he gets ill. And I think we know where this story goes, because we've heard it already before.

• 34:21Speaker 03

  Oh no.

• 34:23Greg Jenner?

  What, what happens to him this time?

• 34:25Speaker 04

  He died.

• 34:25Greg Jenner?

  He died.

• 34:26Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 34:26Greg Jenner?

  What was his illness? Because there was an official illness and there was a real illness.

• 34:29Speaker 04

  Yeah, the official was smallpox.

• 34:31Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 34:32Speaker 04

  But the real reason, because he's, he's got spots all over the place and his body was kind of rotting. We think it's syphilis.

• 34:42Greg Jenner?

  Ah, okay. And so Su Shi, she has lost a sort of a husband of sorts. She's now lost her son. There are now no more men to control, Sophie. So how is she going to cling to power?

• 34:54Speaker 03

  Oh, I guess there are no boys at all.

• 34:56Greg Jenner?

  Well, she finds one.

• 34:58Speaker 03

  Oh, she finds one?

• 34:59Greg Jenner?

  Yeah, she digs up her nephew, right?

• 35:01Speaker 04

  Yeah, so. For her to continue to be Empress Dowager to she needs another son.

• 35:09Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 35:10Speaker 04

  So where did she get the other son? Remember her sister was also in the beauty contest.

• 35:15Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 35:16Speaker 04

  And the sister was married off to the brother of the emperor.

• 35:20Greg Jenner?

  Yeah.

• 35:20Speaker 04

  So two sisters marrying into the same family. The elder sister, Tsu Shi, marries the emperor. And her younger sister marries the brother, younger brother of the emperor. So it's her own nephew from both sides.

• 35:35Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 35:36Greg Jenner?

  So it's a good job, good deal.

• 35:37Speaker 03

  Well done.

• 35:38Speaker 04

  Well done, yeah.

• 35:39Speaker 03

  New nephew's new emperor.

• 35:40Greg Jenner?

  Yeah.

• 35:41Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 35:41Greg Jenner?

  So she's on to sort of Emperor number three.

• 35:44Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 35:44Greg Jenner?

  Yeah. And.

• 35:45Speaker 03

  Outliving a lot of emperors.

• 35:46Greg Jenner?

  How old do you think he is?

• 35:48Speaker 03

  Oh, I think he is, like, her kid was.

• 35:53Greg Jenner?

  Six initially.

• 35:54Speaker 03

  Six, initially six, we're all six initially. Uh, I think he's, I think he's maybe about sixteen.

• 35:59Greg Jenner?

  That's a good guess. Uh, he's three.

• 36:00Speaker 03

  He's three, okay.

• 36:03Greg Jenner?

  So the new emperor is, is a toddler, pot ring around.

• 36:06Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 36:06Greg Jenner?

  Coloring on the walls.

• 36:07Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 36:08Greg Jenner?

  Uh, and so she's back in charge again, right?

• 36:10Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 36:10Greg Jenner?

  So she's back in the hot seat.

• 36:12Speaker 04

  Yeah, and a lot of manchu nobles were against this.

• 36:16Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 36:16Speaker 04

  Because this is not natural. And before we go there, her daughter-in-law, remember her son had an empress. The one she didn't like.

• 36:26Greg Jenner?

  Right.

• 36:26Speaker 04

  She was actually pregnant.

• 36:28Greg Jenner?

  Ah.

• 36:29Speaker 03

  Oh, boy.

• 36:30Greg Jenner?

  So that's, that's the natural heir.

• 36:31Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 36:32Greg Jenner?

  Possibly, yeah.

• 36:32Speaker 04

  She should have been the Empress Dowager.

• 36:36Greg Jenner?

  Yeah.

• 36:36Speaker 04

  Waiting for the child to be born. If it's a girl, then there'll be other choices, right? Because the, the manchus have been in, in China, ruling for all those years. There's family rules as to who gets to inherit.

• 36:50Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 36:51Speaker 04

  You know, she's just like, no, no rule, I'm, I'm the rule.

• 36:54Greg Jenner?

  But that pregnant.

• 36:56Speaker 04

  Ah, this pregnant.

• 36:57Greg Jenner?

  Yes.

• 36:58Speaker 04

  Empress Dowager, Empress, who was about eighteen, nineteen years old, died three months after the Tongji Emperor.

• 37:07Greg Jenner?

  Yes.

• 37:08Speaker 04

  Died.

• 37:08Greg Jenner?

  Suspicious timing, Sophie.

• 37:09Speaker 04

  Very suspicious timing.

• 37:10Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 37:11Speaker 04

  She was pregnant. We, we know that for sure.

• 37:13Greg Jenner?

  And so, and soon after, the Empress Dowager, Shu'an, also died. Suspicious timing.

• 37:18Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 37:19Greg Jenner?

  And do you know how, so she was rumored to have been involved in this second one?

• 37:23Speaker 03

  With the Empress Dowager, her former.

• 37:25Greg Jenner?

  Her former sort of, you know, partner in crime.

• 37:28Speaker 03

  Partner in crime.

• 37:28Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 37:29Speaker 03

  Uh, women own business.

• 37:32Speaker 03

  She, I feel like a poisoning.

• 37:34Greg Jenner?

  Yeah, it is a poisoning.

• 37:35Speaker 03

  Yeah, I feel like that happens with people with loud names.

• 37:38Greg Jenner?

  Do you know, do you know what the poison was put in?

• 37:40Speaker 03

  Oh, a drink?

• 37:42Greg Jenner?

  No, I mentioned at the beginning, actually, it was put in a sweet cake.

• 37:45Speaker 03

  A sweet cake?

• 37:46Greg Jenner?

  Sweet cake, a Bake Off special, and suddenly the Dowager Empress Shuan is dead.

• 37:53Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 37:53Greg Jenner?

  People at court are suspicious.

• 37:56Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 37:56Greg Jenner?

  But they can't prove it.

• 37:57Speaker 04

  Nope.

• 37:57Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 37:58Speaker 04

  Nothing is proved.

• 37:59Greg Jenner?

  So now we have one woman running the show.

• 38:01Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 38:01Greg Jenner?

  Because there's a four-year-old boy over here.

• 38:03Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 38:04Greg Jenner?

  And only one Empress.

• 38:05Speaker 04

  That's what she wants.

• 38:05Greg Jenner?

  That's what she wants. So finally, sushi is the absolute power behind the, she is the throne, really.

• 38:11Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 38:11Greg Jenner?

  Yeah. Sophie, obviously, you're not going to commit a crime anytime soon, but if you had to, if you were going to have to take out a comedy rival, Catherine Bohart, get rid of her now.

• 38:21Speaker 03

  I wouldn't, Catherine would never eat anything I served. But you can keep that in. How would I do it? I think I'd have to do something in the green room. I think if you put free chips in the green room in any, any green room in the country, comics are going to eat it. So I think it would have to be like hot fries.

• 38:38Greg Jenner?

  The problem is all the comedians would die. It wouldn't be just one, you would lose an entire, entire bill of comedians.

• 38:44Speaker 03

  Yeah, but I mean, like, I don't mind taking out a night at the Comedy Store.

• 38:51Greg Jenner?

  And she gets a name change, again.

• 38:53Speaker 03

  Of course.

• 38:53Speaker 04

  Wow.

• 38:54Greg Jenner?

  Can you guess what the name change is this time? I mean, you won't guess, but give us your best.

• 38:59Speaker 03

  Yeah. Wow, from Orchid Girl to Sushi to, is it like from the natural world? Is it like a, is it a symbol of something? Or is it like?

• 39:07Greg Jenner?

  Think more spiritual.

• 39:08Speaker 03

  Spiritual?

• 39:09Greg Jenner?

  Hmm.

• 39:10Speaker 03

  Like, is she like everyone's mother?

• 39:12Greg Jenner?

  Nice, that's a good guess.

• 39:13Speaker 03

  Yeah. She's like?

• 39:14Greg Jenner?

  Like world's mother, yeah.

• 39:15Speaker 03

  Yeah, like the world's mother. A light?

• 39:17Greg Jenner?

  These are good guesses. Hang on, when I'm going to come to you, what's the official nickname that she quite likes?

• 39:22Speaker 04

  She's called Old Buddha.

• 39:24Greg Jenner?

  Old Buddha.

• 39:25Speaker 03

  Old Buddha?

• 39:26Greg Jenner?

  Yeah.

• 39:27Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 39:27Greg Jenner?

  So she's, she's Old Buddha now. She is, is Old Buddha. What nickname would you like to go by?

• 39:33Speaker 03

  Oh, thank you so much for asking. As a nickname, in Chui, which is an Akkan dialect, I would like to be called Sexy Abrua, which is kind of means sexy old woman.

• 39:45Greg Jenner?

  Nice.

• 39:45Speaker 03

  Because I think it's a nickname you can really grow into. It means like grandmother, old woman. So it's kind of like, yeah, tasty grandma.

• 39:51Greg Jenner?

  Nice.

• 39:51Speaker 03

  And that's what I would like to be called.

• 39:53Greg Jenner?

  Would I be allowed to call you that? That feels like that's not a name I can use for you.

• 39:56Speaker 03

  Tasty grandma?

• 39:57Greg Jenner?

  Well, I don't know.

• 39:59Speaker 03

  Hey, yeah.

• 40:01Speaker 03

  Saucy Nana.

• 40:02Greg Jenner?

  Saucy Nana, yeah, fine.

• 40:03Speaker 03

  Saucy Nana.

• 40:03Greg Jenner?

  I'll call you Saucy Nana.

• 40:04Speaker 03

  Thank you so much. Also, kind of sounds gone in.

• 40:08Greg Jenner?

  How do you imagine her as a ruler? We've talked about her as sort of climbing the ladder in terms of court politics. What do you imagine she's like in terms of China?

• 40:15Speaker 03

  I imagine she's not fun.

• 40:19Speaker 04

  I love that.

• 40:22Speaker 03

  I don't think she's, I think because I think she's like had a lot of time tolerating these wastrel or literal baby kings who are like lying around shitting themselves, crawling around, not doing their work. So I feel like she's maybe a bit more austere. She's a bit more tight with the purse strings and a bit more punitive.

• 40:39Greg Jenner?

  Sure.

• 40:40Speaker 03

  Is that correct?

• 40:41Greg Jenner?

  So I mean, so you think kind of harsh but effective? Is that your vibe?

• 40:44Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 40:45Greg Jenner?

  Okay. Yang Wen, what is, in terms of her public policy, in terms of what she does for the people of China? What can we ascribe to her?

• 40:53Speaker 04

  In a way, she was a good ruler. Because after the Second Open War, China basically avoided conflict with the West for 20 or 30 years.

• 41:06Greg Jenner?

  Yeah.

• 41:07Speaker 04

  And she launched reform. She sanctioned a lot of reform projects. China was learning from the West, catching up, modernizing, industrializing. She sanctioned all those projects.

• 41:19Greg Jenner?

  Yeah, she bought warships and weapons.

• 41:21Speaker 04

  Yes, railways and all that stuff. So telegraph lines and modern factories.

• 41:26Greg Jenner?

  Yeah, I mean, you've written a book on the history of the railways in China. That's her policy.

• 41:30Speaker 04

  Yeah, so there is one thing that she, on the one hand, is kind of, she's like a man, like a politician, real ruler. On the other hand, she endorses herself. You know, she built gardens and she wants Western luxuries and all that. So on that aspect, you know, she's more like a real concubine or empress dowager. And she was also good at keeping, you know, by that time, the Manchu's were corrupted and don't want to work because they get handouts from the government. So by that time, it's Chinese officials.

• 42:09Greg Jenner?

  Right.

• 42:09Speaker 04

  Who are running the empire. So you've got Manchu officials, you've got Chinese, you've got Mongols, and you've got foreigners coming in.

• 42:15Greg Jenner?

  Yeah, the French are there.

• 42:16Speaker 04

  Yeah, the British were there running the customs and all that.

• 42:19Greg Jenner?

  Sure.

• 42:20Speaker 04

  So what she was good at is she played them against each other.

• 42:23Greg Jenner?

  Right.

• 42:24Speaker 04

  So keeping herself at the top. She played the reformers against conservatives. The, she played reformers against reformers, Chinese against foreigners, British against the French. You know, she's very good at, at, at playing. Yeah, puppeteer again. Yeah.

• 42:40Greg Jenner?

  Yeah.

• 42:40Speaker 04

  So everybody needs her.

• 42:42Greg Jenner?

  Right. You mentioned briefly the, the Taiping Rebellion.

• 42:44Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 42:45Greg Jenner?

  You know, that is, that is a Christian uprising.

• 42:47Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 42:48Greg Jenner?

  Which is interesting, I suppose, because missionaries have been in China for a while.

• 42:51Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 42:51Greg Jenner?

  So the Christianity's been growing in China.

• 42:53Speaker 04

  Yes, and this is a Chinese scholar who thought he was God's Chinese son.

• 42:59Greg Jenner?

  Wow.

• 42:59Speaker 04

  He was brother to Jesus.

• 43:01Greg Jenner?

  That's nice.

• 43:03Speaker 04

  He led a rebellion that lasted almost twenty years.

• 43:06Greg Jenner?

  Yeah.

• 43:07Speaker 04

  Led to millions of deaths and almost toppled the Qing Dynasty.

• 43:10Greg Jenner?

  Yeah, it's a huge, it's a massive rebellion, isn't it? It's, it's not a small little thing. It's like, it's a, almost a civil war.

• 43:16Speaker 04

  She, she put it down.

• 43:18Greg Jenner?

  Yeah.

• 43:18Speaker 04

  She put it down in eighteen sixty four. You know, it, the rebellion began in eighteen fifty when her husband came to the throne.

• 43:25Greg Jenner?

  Right.

• 43:25Speaker 04

  It, he, for ten years, he couldn't do anything about it.

• 43:28Greg Jenner?

  Yeah.

• 43:28Speaker 04

  And she came to, she came to ru, to reign from behind the curtain eighteen sixty two. In two years' time, the rebellion was dead.

• 43:36Greg Jenner?

  And she did fight with France?

• 43:38Speaker 04

  Yes, there's a French war, yeah, in eighteen eighty three, eighteen five, and then eighteen nineties, China really was not doing well.

• 43:46Greg Jenner?

  And that's when Japan is the main adversary.

• 43:49Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 43:49Greg Jenner?

  So the Sino-Japanese wars.

• 43:50Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah.

• 43:52Greg Jenner?

  So I mean, it's a, it's a long list of enemies that she has to face, right? Christians within her own country, the British, the French, the Japanese.

• 43:59Speaker 04

  And the Chinese against Manchu, Manchus.

• 44:01Greg Jenner?

  Sure.

• 44:02Speaker 04

  It's very messy.

• 44:03Greg Jenner?

  Because Japan has invaded Korea by this point, so Japan's becoming more, more powerful as well.

• 44:07Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 44:07Greg Jenner?

  And China was defeated, its navy was defeated as well.

• 44:10Speaker 04

  Yes, in eighteen ninety five.

• 44:12Greg Jenner?

  Yeah, so it's not going well. And then, of course, her nephew slash son grows up and he becomes Emperor Guan Zhou.

• 44:18Speaker 04

  Yes, and the same story with Qing emperors.

• 44:21Greg Jenner?

  I was gonna say.

• 44:22Speaker 04

  The copy verse repeats again.

• 44:23Greg Jenner?

  Right, so she's like, you can't, you can't be emperor until you're married and I'm gonna choose your wife. Is that right?

• 44:28Speaker 04

  Yes. Wow.

• 44:28Greg Jenner?

  A tale as old as time, Sophie.

• 44:31Speaker 04

  It's terrible. Did she pick the one that she likes? She picked the one she likes. Okay.

• 44:39Greg Jenner?

  You're marrying this girl and there's nothing more to it.

• 44:40Speaker 04

  And it's a cousin, two cousins. So she married her sister's son to her brother's daughter.

• 44:47Greg Jenner?

  Okay, that's quite confusing. I'm sorry, the family tree in my head just became very gnarled, lots of branches.

• 44:53Speaker 04

  Yeah, because she wants to keep the power within her family.

• 44:56Greg Jenner?

  Yeah.

• 44:56Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 44:57Greg Jenner?

  There's all these external pressures on her, these wars, China fighting Japan, France and so on. And she's trying to bring in these reforms in the army and in society.

• 45:05Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 45:06Greg Jenner?

  But there is a coup against her. Yes, Sophie. And do you know what happens in this coup?

• 45:10Speaker 03

  Uh.

• 45:11Greg Jenner?

  Do you know who leads the coup, Habs?

• 45:13Speaker 03

  Coup, I'd say probably led by another concubine.

• 45:18Greg Jenner?

  Oh, nice.

• 45:20Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 45:20Greg Jenner?

  A rival sushi who's gonna climb the ladder.

• 45:22Speaker 03

  Concubine, a concubine, yeah, someone in the nine levels.

• 45:25Greg Jenner?

  Yeah, it's a good guess. Yang, I mean, it's not a concubine.

• 45:28Speaker 04

  No.

• 45:29Greg Jenner?

  Do you want to tell us who it is?

• 45:30Speaker 04

  It's the emperor.

• 45:31Greg Jenner?

  It's her nephew.

• 45:32Speaker 03

  Her nephew.

• 45:33Greg Jenner?

  It's amazing that we called it a coup because he is the emperor.

• 45:36Speaker 03

  He's like, hold on a minute.

• 45:38Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah.

• 45:39Greg Jenner?

  It's not a coup, it's my own throne. But yeah, he tries to get rid of her.

• 45:43Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 45:44Greg Jenner?

  And she does some political judo.

• 45:46Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 45:47Greg Jenner?

  And she gets rid of him.

• 45:48Speaker 04

  Yeah, well, she put him under house arrest for the next.

• 45:52Speaker 03

  This is the audacity, I love it.

• 45:54Greg Jenner?

  Yeah.

• 45:54Speaker 04

  Yeah, this makes a fantastic film. She put him under house arrest on an island.

• 46:01Speaker 03

  Okay, island arrest.

• 46:02Speaker 04

  Yeah, from September 1898 to November 1908, when he died.

• 46:10Greg Jenner?

  So 10 years.

• 46:11Speaker 04

  10 years.

• 46:12Greg Jenner?

  So is he secretly, like, does the rest of the country know that their emperor is

• 46:17Speaker 04

  No.

• 46:17Greg Jenner?

  stuck in a shed somewhere?

• 46:18Speaker 04

  No.

• 46:19Greg Jenner?

  Really?

• 46:19Speaker 04

  Because all the edicts were still issued in the name of the emperor.

• 46:23Greg Jenner?

  The Guangzhou Emperor, okay.

• 46:25Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 46:25Greg Jenner?

  So there we go. So if you come for the, well, I was gonna say come for the king, if you come for the Empress Dowager, you better not miss, Sophie.

• 46:30Speaker 03

  Better not miss. Wow.

• 46:32Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 46:33Greg Jenner?

  So her own nephew in house arrest.

• 46:35Speaker 03

  Her nephew on an island.

• 46:36Greg Jenner?

  Possibly poisoned her sort of business partner.

• 46:39Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 46:40Greg Jenner?

  Possibly poisoned a pregnant woman. Yeah, she's clinging to power.

• 46:44Speaker 03

  But everything's running quite well.

• 46:46Greg Jenner?

  Sort of. I was gonna say in 1900, we get another big military crisis. This one's called the Boxer Rebellion. Do you know why it's called the Boxer Rebellion? Have you heard of that before?

• 46:55Speaker 03

  I hoped it was dog related.

• 47:00Speaker 03

  I'm feeling from context clues that it's not. The boxer rebellion, is it about actual boxers?

• 47:06Greg Jenner?

  It's about Kung Fu really, isn't it? It's about martial arts. Is that fair? Like, it's a British name for the people they believe they're fighting have martial arts skills. Is that fair?

• 47:16Speaker 04

  Yes, yes.

• 47:17Greg Jenner?

  So the British are like, the people we're fighting, they don't use guns, they use hands.

• 47:21Speaker 03

  Hey, oh, yeah, yeah.

• 47:22Speaker 04

  Martial art practitioners.

• 47:23Greg Jenner?

  Practitioners, yeah. So it's a sort of rebellion of traditional martial arts practitioners who are... Who is their great enemy? Is it the foreigners?

• 47:32Speaker 04

  So what happened is after the Sino-Japanese War and Japan defeated China and all the foreigners came back to China wanting more. The Germans began to colonize Shandong region. And the Shandong region is famous for people who practiced martial arts.

• 47:52Greg Jenner?

  Right.

• 47:53Speaker 04

  And there's a special brand, it's called Harmonious Fists. They fight, they fight you with the fist.

• 48:00Greg Jenner?

  I feel like that's an oxymoron. Harmonious fists.

• 48:03Speaker 04

  Harmonious fists. And the Westerners called them boxers.

• 48:07Greg Jenner?

  Yeah.

• 48:07Speaker 04

  So, in a way, it's funny because when the Western powers imposed unwanted treaties on the Chinese government and Chinese government, the Qing government, actually accepted it. But the people in Shandong says, no, we don't have to accept anything.

• 48:22Greg Jenner?

  Right.

• 48:22Speaker 04

  So they began to uproot railways, telegraph lines, burn churches, kill missionaries and kill the Chinese converts.

• 48:30Greg Jenner?

  Yeah.

• 48:30Speaker 04

  And Cixi at this minute was like, wow, that's great. Let them kill all the foreigners.

• 48:36Greg Jenner?

  Oh, really?

• 48:36Speaker 04

  Yes, so she encouraged them.

• 48:39Greg Jenner?

  Right.

• 48:39Speaker 04

  And some of the princes actually funded them.

• 48:42Greg Jenner?

  Right, okay.

• 48:43Speaker 04

  That's why they went to Beijing.

• 48:44Greg Jenner?

  But she is forced to flee the Forbidden City.

• 48:46Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 48:47Greg Jenner?

  So she, you know, it goes wrong for her.

• 48:48Speaker 04

  Yeah, so what happens is the boxers grew humongously because of royal support.

• 48:55Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 48:55Speaker 04

  So they went to Beijing, they besieged the foreign embassy area. You know, all the Britons, France, everybody. And of course, they called for help. And their navies comes, you know, came to China to suppress the boxers. And then, of course, then Cixi realized, oh, my God, foreigners are coming.

• 49:13Greg Jenner?

  Yeah.

• 49:14Speaker 04

  They're so powerful, I better run. So she actually could be the real culprit.

• 49:21Greg Jenner?

  Yeah.

• 49:21Speaker 04

  In this whole thing, because if she didn't encourage them.

• 49:25Greg Jenner?

  Yeah.

• 49:25Speaker 04

  They wouldn't have come to Beijing. So the suppression wouldn't have happened. Do you see what I mean?

• 49:31Greg Jenner?

  Yeah, so it backfires on her.

• 49:32Speaker 04

  Yeah, but then she escapes.

• 49:34Greg Jenner?

  Yeah.

• 49:34Speaker 04

  In August, the night before the British marched into the city and she was disguised as a peasant woman.

• 49:40Greg Jenner?

  Ooh.

• 49:42Speaker 04

  She doesn't want anybody to know.

• 49:42Greg Jenner?

  No one's believing that, come on.

• 49:44Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 49:45Greg Jenner?

  So I mean, you said at the beginning, and we'll say it again, she died in nineteen oh eight. So she she managed to cling to power for seven more years after this huge uprising, this huge rebellion. But obviously she was compromised by the foreign powers coming in.

• 49:57Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 49:57Greg Jenner?

  So that final stage of her career is perhaps not very successful. But Sophie, do you know what her final act was? Literally within the days before her death, what was the last thing she did?

• 50:08Speaker 03

  In her final days, she knew she was gonna die.

• 50:12Greg Jenner?

  She's at the end of her life.

• 50:14Speaker 03

  She picked her air?

• 50:16Greg Jenner?

  I mean, that's certainly part of it, isn't it?

• 50:17Speaker 03

  Decided she like, I'll try opium.

• 50:21Speaker 04

  She smoked opium all her life.

• 50:23Greg Jenner?

  Yeah, she did, yeah.

• 50:24Speaker 04

  But she knew how to moderate it.

• 50:25Greg Jenner?

  She dabbled in it, didn't she? Yeah.

• 50:27Speaker 03

  She could handle it.

• 50:28Greg Jenner?

  No, she, uh, well, do you remember the emperor who's still in house arrest?

• 50:33Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah, on the island.

• 50:34Greg Jenner?

  She got rid of him.

• 50:35Speaker 03

  Oh, no.

• 50:37Greg Jenner?

  One day before she died.

• 50:39Speaker 04

  Sixteen hours before.

• 50:40Greg Jenner?

  Sixteen hours before she died.

• 50:42Speaker 03

  Oh, my god.

• 50:44Greg Jenner?

  He wasn't gonna come back to power.

• 50:45Speaker 03

  Wow. She's a real bitter bitter lady. Not bitter. I mean, she's like, you don't have to get bitter if you take care of business before you go.

• 50:53Greg Jenner?

  Yeah, she just, she lined up all the dominoes.

• 50:56Speaker 04

  Yeah, she he she was dying and she said to people around her that he must die before I die.

• 51:03Greg Jenner?

  Yeah.

• 51:04Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 51:04Speaker 04

  And her nephew, her own nephew.

• 51:06Greg Jenner?

  Her adopted son.

• 51:08Speaker 04

  Her adopted son.

• 51:08Speaker 03

  Her adopted son, but her nephew also. Is her sister still alive?

• 51:14Greg Jenner?

  I don't know.

• 51:15Speaker 04

  No, her sister died.

• 51:16Greg Jenner?

  Okay.

• 51:16Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah.

• 51:17Greg Jenner?

  Poisoned?

• 51:18Speaker 04

  Possible.

• 51:20Greg Jenner?

  Okay, okay, so she bumped off the emperor.

• 51:22Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 51:22Greg Jenner?

  So who was the next, the next person to take over was the is the the last emperor, the famous last emperor.

• 51:27Speaker 04

  Yeah, the yeah, the last.

• 51:28Greg Jenner?

  And he's another three year old boy.

• 51:30Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 51:32Speaker 04

  So when you see boy emperors in Chinese history, something fishy is going on.

• 51:36Greg Jenner?

  Right, okay. That three-year-old is the son of the nephew that she murders. So, and of course, he abdicates in 1911, and that is the end of the imperial story.

• 51:44Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 51:45Greg Jenner?

  So, quite the life, Sophie.

• 51:46Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 51:47Greg Jenner?

  How do you feel about Su Shi now?

• 51:49Speaker 03

  Su Shi, I feel resoundingly positive.

• 51:54Speaker 03

  I feel real good about her.

• 51:55Greg Jenner?

  Because I feel like she entered her villain era, and I'm not sure she left it.

• 51:58Speaker 03

  Yeah, she did really depart from the villain era, but I mean, like, she played the game. I think she was an incredible player of the game. Also, a little bit of poison. A little bit of poison is not the worst thing in the world, and I think I really respect how she refused to let adult men be in charge.

• 52:17Speaker 03

  Hey, I don't love that she murdered a pregnant woman.

• 52:19Greg Jenner?

  Sure.

• 52:19Speaker 03

  And you can quote me on that. I can't stay mad at her. I know she did some bad things.

• 52:24Greg Jenner?

  Okay.

• 52:24Speaker 03

  But I think she is sort of an inspiration.

• 52:34Greg Jenner?

  That brings us to our nuance window. This is where Sophie and I sit quietly and brainstorm new noble names for ourselves for two minutes.

• 52:41Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah.

• 52:41Greg Jenner?

  We need, I think, eight new names each, probably.

• 52:44Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 52:44Greg Jenner?

  While Professor Yang Wen holds court and tells us something that we need to know about Empress Dowager Su Shi. And my stopwatch is ready. You have two minutes. Take it away, Professor Zhong.

• 52:53Speaker 04

  She has been wronged, in some ways, by historians for generations because she's a woman and because of allegedly the things she did. If you look in the long run, if she wasn't there, China might have disappeared in 1862. So you can say that she helped pop up the Qing Dynasty for another four or five decades after the Second Opium War.

• 53:28Speaker 04

  That's number one. Number two, the reforms she stepped in to stop Hundred Days Reform. If you look from today's perspective, it might be too early. China might not have been ready for it as a country because if China was not ready, it will cause chaos because the political reforms that the Guangxu Emperor wanted. She also has won saving grace. As historians have managed to mine further into the archives, we realized that the Guangxu Emperor, who wanted all those radical reform, her nephew emperor,

• 54:09Speaker 04

  actually was in secret communication with the Japanese. He met with the full-time Japanese Prime Minister. There was recommendation from ranking Chinese intellectuals that Japan should steer China in eighteen ninety-eight. That is something she could not accept. And that is something that today's Chinese would never accept.

• 54:37Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 54:37Speaker 04

  So that may redeem her.

• 54:41Greg Jenner?

  Amazing. Thank you so much.

• 54:42Speaker 03

  Incredible.

• 54:43Greg Jenner?

  I mean, really interesting.

• 54:44Speaker 03

  Oh, my God. I like, put him on an island.

• 54:48Greg Jenner?

  I mean, it's a really interesting point, the what if. You know, I don't usually like what ifs with history because, you know, history is chaos and we have to imagine it. But if she wasn't there, the story of China might have been so radically different.

• 54:59Speaker 04

  Yeah, China needed a strong character.

• 55:02Greg Jenner?

  Yeah, and she certainly was strong.

• 55:03Speaker 04

  Who kept things together.

• 55:06Greg Jenner?

  I can see why you're on her side, yeah. I'm not sure I agree with her, the way she went about things, but, you know. Any final thoughts, Sophie, before we do the quiz?

• 55:13Speaker 03

  I fully support. I would. If she has, you know, one hundred fans, I'm one of them. If she has ten fans, I'm one of them.

• 55:21Greg Jenner?

  Wow.

• 55:22Speaker 03

  I've been poisoned by a bad cake.

• 55:25Speaker 03

  I think it was honestly not chaotic, but so, like, such a full life and so many people to sort of like manage and maneuver. And I feel that she, at the end, managed to like leave not kind of disgraced with sort of her legacy intact. I mean, not morally, but in terms of she didn't like, she didn't die in indignity or anything like that. And so I think that's pretty impressive.

• 55:49Greg Jenner?

  True. I mean, dying in your deathbed, still in power, is hard as, you know, an emperor, isn't it?

• 56:00Greg Jenner?

  Well, it's time now for the So What Do You Know Now? This is our quickfire quiz for Sophie to see how much she has learned. Sophie, ordinarily, you're very good at these quizzes, but I think today's been quite sort of tricky with lots of emperors and nephews and sons.

• 56:11Speaker 03

  Oh, yes. Yeah, the family tree is overgrown.

• 56:16Greg Jenner?

  Okay, I've got 10 questions for you. Let's see how you do. Okay, good luck. Question one: what was Su Shi's childhood nickname? Or name, perhaps?

• 56:24Speaker 03

  Her childhood name was Lan.

• 56:26Greg Jenner?

  Yeah, Lan, which meant?

• 56:28Speaker 03

  Orchid girl.

• 56:28Greg Jenner?

  Orchid girl, very good.

• 56:29Speaker 03

  Superhero.

• 56:31Greg Jenner?

  Question two: by which process did the emperor choose which concubine he wanted to spend the night with?

• 56:36Speaker 03

  Oh, he had a metaphorical binder of women, all their names on a tray, and he would turn it round if he wanted to see them.

• 56:43Greg Jenner?

  That's right, and they would be kidnapped and delivered to him. How romantic. Question three: which lowly rank of consort did Su Shi begin in?

• 56:51Speaker 03

  She was at level six.

• 56:52Greg Jenner?

  She did.

• 56:53Speaker 03

  It's embarrassing.

• 56:53Greg Jenner?

  She climbed. Question four: with whom did Su Shi stage a coup after Emperor Jiang Feng's death?

• 57:00Speaker 03

  With her fellow Empress Dowager, Su An.

• 57:04Greg Jenner?

  Very good. Question five: what other names were the two Empress Dowager known by, geographically speaking? So Su Shi and Su An, they were known as?

• 57:12Speaker 03

  Su Shi and Su An were known by east and west, specifically. And was east, she was west.

• 57:18Greg Jenner?

  Very good.

• 57:18Speaker 03

  She was wicked.

• 57:21Greg Jenner?

  Question six: what did Su Shi insist her son, the Emperor Tang Jue, do before she let him assume power?

• 57:27Speaker 03

  He's got to get wifey.

• 57:28Greg Jenner?

  He's got to get worried, and she wanted to choose one of the four ladies. Question seven: you're doing very well, Sophie.

• 57:34Speaker 03

  Thank you.

• 57:34Greg Jenner?

  Absolutely nailing this. Question seven: how did Su Shi stay in power after her son's death?

• 57:39Speaker 03

  She stayed in power after her son's death by keeping it in the family and getting her sister's son to become emperor.

• 57:45Greg Jenner?

  That's it, three-year-old nephew, install him as emperor, classic. Question eight: how did Su Shi's former power partner, Empress Dowager Shi An, allegedly die?

• 57:53Speaker 03

  Uh, it was pastry week and...

• 57:58Greg Jenner?

  Yes.

• 57:58Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 57:59Greg Jenner?

  A few too many bitter almonds in that cake, I think, yeah. Question nine: Name one seismic war or event that Sir Shi lived through.

• 58:07Speaker 03

  Oh, OK, so there were so many. There was the, I'm going to pronounce them all wrong. There was the burning of the Summer Palace.

• 58:13Greg Jenner?

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 58:14Speaker 03

  There was the Taiping Rebellion. There was the Boxer Rebellion.

• 58:17Greg Jenner?

  This is amazing.

• 58:18Speaker 03

  With the harmonious fists.

• 58:20Greg Jenner?

  Yeah, I'm giving you a bonus point because that was amazing. That was fantastic. And this for a perfect 11 out of 10.

• 58:24Speaker 03

  Oh, God.

• 58:25Greg Jenner?

  What was surprising about the timing of Sir Shi's death, considering the Emperor's death?

• 58:30Speaker 03

  It was surprising that only 16 hours before he was condemned to death on his island.

• 58:37Greg Jenner?

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 58:38Speaker 03

  Oh.

• 58:39Greg Jenner?

  Sophie Dhuca, 11 out of 10.

• 58:41Speaker 03

  Oh, thank God. Oh, everything's been riding on this for me. Thank you, Yangwen.

• 58:45Greg Jenner?

  Thank you so much, Yangwen. An amazing lesson. I think we all learned so much there. Well done, Sophie. Fantastic memory recall. And listener, if you want more brilliant biographies with Sophie Dhuca, check out our episodes on Benedetta Carlini, the saucy nun, Ramses the Great, another sort of big, powerful name, and of course, the Chevalier de Saint George, the great composer. And for more Chinese history, why not listen to our episodes on the history of Kung Fu, the Tang Dynasty, and the Terracotta Warriors, of course, all very interesting. If you enjoy the podcast, please share the show with your friends. Subscribe to You're Dead to Me on BBC Sounds to hear new episodes 28 days earlier than anywhere else. And if you're outside the UK, you can listen at bbc.com or wherever you get your podcasts. I'd just like to say a huge thank you to our guests. In History Corner, we have the incredible Professor Yangwen Zheng from the University of Manchester. Thank you, Yangwen.

• 59:30Greg Jenner?

  Thank you for having me. It's been an absolute pleasure. And in Comedy Corner, we have the superstar Sophie Dhuca. Thank you, Sophie.

• 59:35Speaker 03

  Thank you so much. 11 out of 10. Thank you.

• 59:39Greg Jenner?

  And to you, lovely listener, join me next time as we raise another overlooked historical subject up through the ranks. But for now, I'm off to go and have a lie down. My producers fed me a weird tasting cake before the recording and I feel a bit woozy. Bye.

• 59:51Speaker 03

  Bye.

• 59:57Greg Jenner?

  You're Dead to Me is a BBC Studios production for BBC Radio 4. This episode was researched by Emma Mitchell. It was written by Emma Mitchell, Dr Emmy Rose Price Goodfellow, Dr Emma Nagouse and me. The audio producer was Steve Hanke and our production coordinator was Gill Huggett. It was produced by Dr Emmy Rose Price Goodfellow, me and senior producer Dr Emma Nagouse, and our executive editor is Philip Sellers.

• 1:00:27Speaker 07

  Hello, Alex Von Tunselwyn here with a brand new series of History's Heroes. People with purpose, brave ideas and the courage to stand alone. Including the little-known story of a famous author caught up in a horrific accident, which would require all his courage.

• 1:00:44Speaker 08

  Dickens remained in the river, helping the rescue, assisting the wounded. He didn't search out to be heroic, he didn't play on his heroism.

• 1:00:58Speaker 07

  Subscribe to History's Heroes on BBC Sounds.

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  Welcome to The Haunted Library. Join me, Colin Morgan, as I read Frankenstein by Mary Shelley.

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  A story of science and ambition, loneliness and longing, and what it truly means to be human.

• 1:01:28Speaker 06

  Listen to The Haunted Library wherever you get your podcasts, or find us on YouTube.