KHC 114 - The Real Shoe Dawgs

Dave Dombrow and Kevin Fallon are the co-founders and masterminds behind some of the best running shoes on the market, Run Speedland. Dave, Kevin and Cam will be covering the newest additions to the Speedland lineup including new road and trail shoes and a hunting boot, with perfected details by Cam himself. They’ll also be covering technology in running shoes, their future goals for shoes and more! Follow along: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/cameronrhanes Twitter: https://twitter.com/cameronhanes Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/camhanes/ Website: https://www.cameronhanes.com Follow Courtney: https://www.instagram.com/runspeedland/ Thank you to our sponsors: Grizzly Coolers: https://www.grizzlycoolers.com/ use code KEEPHAMMERING for 20% off Montana Knife Company: https://www.montanaknifecompany.com/ Use code CAM for 10% off MUD\WTR: https://mudwtr.com/cam use code CAM for 15% off Ketone IQ: https://www.ketone.com/Cam use code CAM for 30% off your first subscription MTN OPS Supplements: https://mtnops.com/ Use code KEEPHAMMERING for 20% off and Free Shipping Hoyt: http://bit.ly/3Zdamyv use code CAM for 10% off Timestamps: 00:00:00 Testing New Shoe Designs 00:06:49 Embracing the Athletes Mantras 00:10:37 Ketone-IQ 00:11:46 Social Media Presence in Marketing 00:17:27 Coffee Club Podcast 00:19:14 Body Language & Mind Games in Races 00:21:01 Shared Suffering & the Community in Running 00:22:49 New Cam Hanes Cocodona Speedland Shoes 00:26:18 Ad Break (MUD\WTR & Ketone-IQ) 00:28:42 New Cam Hanes Speedland Hunting Boots 00:33:51 BOA® & PerformFit™ Wrap Features 00:36:54 New Technology in Shoes & Boots 00:39:04 Durability of the BOA® 00:41:39 Speedland’s Goal 00:47:06 Difference Between Race & Road Shoes 00:52:19 Reducing Impact During Running 01:00:32 Gaiter Shoe Attachment - Cocodona Speedland Shoes 01:05:54 Speedland Goals for the Future 01:07:21 Leadville Trail Marathon 01:09:09 Q - Will There be Insulated Hunting Boots? 01:09:50 Q - Will There be Speedland Military Boots? 01:12:51 Outro

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:14Cameron Hanes?

  Well, we're here, Keep Hammer Collective, Kevin and Dave from Speedland. Man, what, how great of a day is this?

• 0:23Speaker 01

  Stoked to be back.

• 0:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 0:24Cameron Hanes?

  Can you, and look at all, look at all our goodies.

• 0:27Speaker 01

  Got some products to share.

• 0:28Cameron Hanes?

  What's going on?

• 0:28Speaker 01

  For sure.

• 0:29Cameron Hanes?

  What's going on, like, so just let's recap, Speedland, when did Speed, how long has this been going now? When did this brainchild start?

• 0:39Speaker 02

  Uh, let's see, it's been now.

• 0:41Speaker 01

  Well, we started developing in 2020, and then we started selling product in 2021.

• 0:46Speaker 02

  Middle of 2020.

• 0:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, June or July.

• 0:48Cameron Hanes?

  Man, so it's only been like four years, really.

• 0:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, we're coming up on four years.

• 0:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, we're getting into our fourth year here.

• 0:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 0:54Cameron Hanes?

  Four years and, I don't know, I, I see a lot of people wearing and talk about Speedland. How, how does that feel?

• 1:01Speaker 01

  It's, it's, that's why we do it. I mean, that's the, the reward of seeing these amazing athletes like yourself, uh, choosing our product for, for these really difficult, hard things in the mountains. We love it.

• 1:14Speaker 02

  It's a process though, right? Like, you know, you're like, we're always, feels like we're just getting started to some degree.

• 1:20Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, I kept, uh, I know, I mean, these guys were out there with me the whole time. Well, three days with Courtney, Courtney, but for that whole, uh, 12 hours on Piska, so many people wearing Speedland, which, you know, it's local, it's cool, but it's never gets old seeing so many, I don't know, how many pairs of Speedlands was there? Probably?

• 1:42Speaker 02

  Tons.

• 1:43Cameron Hanes?

  I bet, I bet over 30 people.

• 1:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, I was gonna say at least like 25, 30.

• 1:49Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. Yeah, so that's.

• 1:51Speaker 01

  We, we love it. And you've helped us build that community and certainly an event like with Taylor is, you know, gonna bring in the Speedland folks and it's great, it's great. We love seeing that and, uh, we, we don't take any of it for granted either.

• 2:03Speaker 02

  No.

• 2:03Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, it was nice having, uh, had the tent there and had some representation.

• 2:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, our boy Chris was there.

• 2:09Cameron Hanes?

  Chris, yeah, he delivered, got my shoes to me the night before, I think.

• 2:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:15Speaker 01

  Some new, uh, new, I mean, it's a, it's a road shoe, but of course you put it to the test, uh, on the trail as well. Evidenced by the look of it, yeah. It's had over a hundred miles in.

• 2:24Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:24Speaker 01

  Less than a week.

• 2:25Speaker 02

  I say a few days, you put a hundred miles on it.

• 2:27Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, you guys, you guys said. You wanted me to like do as much as I could in it to test it to see if it would break or do whatever. And yeah, I mean, so Courtney and I did, uh, you know, twenty five, twenty four thousand feet of gain, a hundred miles. And my feet were in great shape, you know, the, the whole time, no, no blisters at all. And

• 2:49Speaker 01

  That's great to hear.

• 2:50Cameron Hanes?

  For wearing a road shoe in the mountains, that is a good test.

• 2:54Speaker 01

  That's a hard test. Yeah, we don't necessarily recommend when people buy it, they do that. But, uh, but it's, that's what we look to do. It's part of our process. You know, this is Don Reichelt's commission. F P Y stands for fair play. And he's been instrumental in getting us to this point. And then we've kind of expanded the athlete testing group to make sure it holds up and works for Don and for a broader group. And that's kind of where we are. We're in the late stages, getting ready to commercialize this. And we should have it, uh, for sale, um, probably in late Feb, early March, and then it'll deliver in April. Yeah, we try to break it in testing if we can. And someone like, someone like you, you know, you know. Yep. You broke the, you broke the other one. Yeah, you broke the other one. Yeah, you broke the other one. So. Yeah.

• 3:37Speaker 01

  But that's what we need. And that's, that's how we work. And we rely on that. You know, you only get so much out of mechanical testing or that type of testing in situ and having the athletes do what they do in it is the best way. So we rely heavily on that.

• 3:51Cameron Hanes?

  Well, you know, I mean, I can just speak from past experience with other companies. They've said the same things you guys said. I'd go out there, did things that caused them to fail. Then I tell them, nothing changes. So with you guys, I broke the other version. Here's what happened. Here's the new version, fixed, and no issue.

• 4:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:16Cameron Hanes?

  So you guys took the feedback. That it's like, seems so simple.

• 4:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, it is. It is simple. And it's amazing at big companies, how that doesn't happen.

• 4:25Cameron Hanes?

  And

• 4:25Speaker 01

  Yeah. That was one of the reasons that led us to start Speedland. Really, like, just get too many layers between the athletes and the product teams. And there's not a good reason for it. Um, there's, you know, just layers and things that get in the way, timing, the relentless product flow of a big company. And we don't, you know, we're kind of anti all that. We want to listen to the athletes and incorporate the feedback. And that helps us make better product. I mean, you're sending us texts real time, you know, so then we can just go as fast as possible. So. With explicative sign of case. Yes.

• 4:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, they're not all the nice. Sorry, they're not all the nicest texts.

• 5:01Speaker 01

  Well, no, no.

• 5:01Speaker 02

  That was this.

• 5:02Speaker 01

  But we needed on that one. It was like, what the is this thing?

• 5:05Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, well, okay. So that was like, that was like, you know, when you have, uh, when you have a new relationship and some of the old, from the old relationship, kind of, kind of bleeds into the new relationship. And so it shouldn't really, but here's, here's why. So I had a boot with another company we're familiar with. I said, I wanted this, right? And because it's hard to get the boot on just without this little thing.

• 5:32Speaker 01

  Boots are always hard to get.

• 5:33Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, got it, Cam. No problem. Got it. We're, we're on it. Thousands of boots come out after that. No thing. So why did you ask me? If you're not going to do, so that I think is a little bit, I still traumatized from that maybe, but you guys.

• 5:50Speaker 01

  We love it.

• 5:51Cameron Hanes?

  So the, the change you made fixed that. And that's, that's what I was talking about on that one, one text. But yeah, that's what I love about it is like, you know, you talk about the challenges of a, of a big company and this and that, but you guys, yeah, you're nimble, you're quick, you listen. Uh, you make great product. You're, you've been immersed in the space forever. You know what runners want. Or in this case, now this is going to be a, a hunting boot.

• 6:19Cameron Hanes?

  And yeah, you, you're just committed to doing it right and making great product. And like I said, it's like, like I said earlier, it's like, it seems simple, but man, I don't know.

• 6:30Speaker 01

  Well, I think that's our goal. We want to keep it that simple. And when it gets to a point where it can't be that simple, then maybe it's time for us to do something else. But you know, it does really, uh, our, our brand revolves around that. The relationship with athletes is everything.

• 6:46Cameron Hanes?

  Is, oh, this is like, now I'm distracted on stuff, but Fair Play, is that in Colorado?

• 6:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:51Cameron Hanes?

  Okay. So is that where Don's from?

• 6:53Speaker 01

  Don lived, and actually he's moved now, but he was living in Fair Play. It's at Altitude and he intentionally chose that as a place that would be a great training ground for him and his professional running pursuits and, uh,

• 7:05Speaker 02

  So that's where the FPY comes from. And that's our next commission that's coming. Yeah.

• 7:10Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 7:10Speaker 02

  No, that's a cool, I love that shoe. So I worked with him on the colors and there's some neat graphics inside that, you know, kind of reiterate his mantra of, you know, there will come a day when you can no longer do this. Today is not that day. So that's what's inside. It's inside and, you know, so we, we just try to really imbue the product with things that are meaningful to the athlete that we're working with on a given product and, and then, you know, change it for the next athlete as we can.

• 7:37Cameron Hanes?

  And we, yeah, we talked about that, like, uh, that's one difference that Speedland is embracing athletes and like kind of celebrating an athlete, you know, with, with this personality or with these little things that are important to them. Whereas a lot of these other brands, for some reason, are almost anti-athlete. It's just like, what, what do we sell, why are we afraid to celebrate that what makes this individual special and why what they do is important and why this product or the shoe will help them?

• 8:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 8:08Cameron Hanes?

  Whatever. It's like, why, why do you think brands don't do what Speedland does?

• 8:13Speaker 02

  I mean, pretty much everything we do is a signature, every commission we come out with is a, is a signature shoe, which is somehow very unique in, in the running industry.

• 8:23Cameron Hanes?

  Mm-hmm.

• 8:23Speaker 02

  It's not as unique when you look at other industries like basketball, you know, or, you know, where that is kind of what it's built on now is signature shoes. So not sure why they don't do that, but for us, it gives, it goes beyond the color then and it starts to give every commission a stronger purpose.

• 8:40Cameron Hanes?

  Mm-hmm.

• 8:40Speaker 02

  And that gives it a foundation, you know, that we can build off of versus if it's just a, you know, another colorway or another iteration, it just doesn't have as much meaning.

• 8:49Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, it's a, I mean, the storytelling, that's pretty much marketing, right? So it was like, what's the story you're telling? It's like, when I think of, I always go back to the hunting industry because that's what I, what I do, but like, there's big brands, like say a Matthews, Matthews makes great bows, they got one of the best archers and bow hunters ever in Levi Morgan. It's just like, why is it his name on a bow?

• 9:14Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 9:15Speaker 01

  It's a great question. Makes sense.

• 9:18Cameron Hanes?

  Because sometimes they're like, so they're worried about, well, our other pro staffers and they would want their own bow too. It's like, well, they're not the best of all time.

• 9:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:26Cameron Hanes?

  So not everybody gets their own bow. I just, I don't know.

• 9:30Speaker 01

  Some of it's that, you know, some of it's that kind of philosophy of, oh, it's got to be the best of the best. And, you know, for us, it's more about celebrating all of the athletes, anybody who's doing these hard things, you know, let's, let's tell their story. Everybody has an interesting story and

• 9:48Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 9:48Speaker 01

  worth celebrating and

• 9:49Cameron Hanes?

  I just, I just shit on myself because I'm not the best trail runner of all time, but look at this. God dang it.

• 9:56Speaker 01

  Well, the, you know, that's to the point. Like, it's not necessarily about being the best because then there'd only be a few signature products out there.

• 10:04Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 10:04Speaker 01

  Because there's only room for one or two people to say they're the best.

• 10:07Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 10:07Speaker 01

  And it's really more about interesting stories and, and great people. And for us, that's a big part of it too. Like, starting a brand, you have a choice. You can surround yourself with the people you want to surround yourself with. And that's a pretty important thing that I think gets overlooked. In a company, you kind of got to deal with whoever's there. And we have a choice and we, you know, choose the people that we want to associate with.

• 10:30Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. Um, what do you think? Yeah, I had a question I was going to ask.

• 10:36Speaker 01

  I'm going to jump in on this, Ketone.

• 10:37Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, I know. Do it. Want me to shoot it off your head?

• 10:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, sure. Yeah. Let's repeat that one.

• 10:43Cameron Hanes?

  That costs a lot of, a lot of turmoil. People are very upset with the camera tricks.

• 10:50Speaker 01

  How did you not benefit from all of that though? Right? I mean,

• 10:54Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 10:54Speaker 01

  all the banter, all the talk has to be ultimately a good thing.

• 10:58Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. I mean, it's all good. There's always, there's people saying they had keep hammering tattoos you're going to have removed now because, I don't know why, I guess.

• 11:07Speaker 01

  Call the wham.

• 11:07Cameron Hanes?

  Because it's too good to have a camera trick. But, yeah, no, I, Ketone has done a good job as far as like, Yeah, just brand awareness and doing, you know, they had John Jones in there as a chiropractor, like breaking people's necks and Riley Reid, adult film star. I like that stuff. I don't like doing the same shit all the time.

• 11:30Speaker 02

  Michael seems unafraid to try different approaches and new things and his team does a great job. We like watching what their journey is. We met him at Cocal Dona a couple of years ago and, um, smart people.

• 11:43Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, that's what I was, so what I was gonna get to is like, how much, you know, we've talked a little bit about, we had a little meeting before, just talking about all our cool new projects and we'll get to that, but how much, uh, you know, we talked about like the greatest of all time and then like then me, not the greatest, but how much like when you guys look at runners or influencers or sponsored athletes, does that social media piece come into performance? Is it like, you know, I know there's no, you can't say 50/50 or whatever, but social media is a part of, of the, the game plan now, right? Or the formula seems like, because there's some great runners out there with no, for whatever reason, no social

• 12:26Cameron Hanes?

  media and their value is lessened, right or wrong?

• 12:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's lessened. I mean, we look at, I would say we've always looked at three things. Um, we look at, obviously we look at social media, you know, we look at just pure performance, speed, race results. Um, and then we look at community, like what are you doing in the community, local or national, whatever?

• 12:49Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 12:50Speaker 02

  And so they all play a different factor and we kind of, if you're really strong in, in one of those, then we want to talk to you. Um, if you're strong in multiple, that's even better.

• 13:02Cameron Hanes?

  We really want to talk to you.

• 13:05Speaker 02

  So everything's important, you know, I think, yeah, we don't, we wouldn't say social is not important because it is, but if you're also up on the podium, um, at a, you know, a Cocal Dona. That's pretty amazing as well. So, you know, we'll, we'll take both. But that's how we look at things. Like we're, we're not kind of singular in, in one way, which actually some companies are

• 13:27Cameron Hanes?

  Are they?

• 13:27Speaker 02

  More singular, I would say.

• 13:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, I would, I would say we don't over index on the social thing, to be fair. Like if you look at our elite team, they're not huge. None of them are really

• 13:35Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 13:36Speaker 01

  big, huge. So beyond you.

• 13:37Cameron Hanes?

  Hmm.

• 13:39Speaker 01

  Dylan is probably the next one, but pretty big. If you look at just pure followers, you know, there's getting to the level that you're at is no small feat. And when you're a pro runner, that's a tough, tough thing to do, or maybe not even fully pro, but you're still building your own brand.

• 13:54Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 13:54Speaker 01

  Thing to do. So for us, it's as much about the relationship. Do they want to work with a brand like us? Cause we work differently. We're not just sending product in the mail and checking in once a year. We're kind of asking you to be part of the wear testing program. Sometimes you might wear product that fails or has, you know, that you need to give us more input on. And that's not what some people want either. So, you know, working with us is a different type of process, but for the right person who's looking for input into product, who wants to be part of a small brand doing things a little differently, we're, we're a unique alternative to a big brand.

• 14:29Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. It's a, and I think like, you know, you talked about Dylan where I think Dylan and some of these other athletes are doing a good job is like, so it's not just social, just like how many followers, but like he's got this media.

• 14:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, right. Dylan's unique in a very unique case because he has his own media, media company as well.

• 14:48Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 14:48Speaker 02

  He's able to leverage, you know, he can kind of amplify both Dylan, Dylan is the athlete personally and Dylan and the

• 14:55Cameron Hanes?

  Free Trail.

• 14:56Speaker 02

  The free trail side. So he, he's able to kind of go back and forth, which is super unique. I, I mean, actually you, you're able to do kind of do the same thing as well in a different way. But, um, but that's kind of an ideal where you can kind of take two different platforms and kind of cross amplify both. Um, yeah. And that's, that's great if we have that, but that is

• 15:15Cameron Hanes?

  It's rare.

• 15:15Speaker 02

  Somewhat rare.

• 15:17Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. It's a, there are some like, uh, Des London and Kara Goucher are doing a good job where they're Still, I don't know if Karr is competing still. I know that does, you know, some, but their, their media is now their podcast and they're still reaching people and they're still involved in the, you know, the culture and

• 15:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:37Cameron Hanes?

  in the sport, so.

• 15:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, because they're also finding their stuff on like the big broadcasts and stuff I've noticed.

• 15:42Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, right.

• 15:42Speaker 01

  The commentators.

• 15:43Cameron Hanes?

  So I love, you know, I, I look at it as like, not just one or two, not just performance, not just social, but like, I'm always, to me personally, I want to do performance, social, YouTube, which I guess would be social, social media too, in some ways, uh, print media. I want all of it. I want to do it all and have a presence in all of it. Then when you, you know, when you're working with a partner or you're, you know, excited about just what I do, it's like, in all these avenues, this is reaching people. And that's, that's where we make the biggest impact. That's hard to do though. It's hard to get.

• 16:19Speaker 01

  That's more than a full-time job just in and of itself, right?

• 16:22Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 16:22Speaker 01

  So that's why I think it's rare for people to do that. But when, when it does work, uh, you know, like Dylan being in the sport a long time, a lot of connections, it kind of, you know, it works.

• 16:33Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, yeah. It's pretty, pretty cool to see his, um, because I do, I listen to all his stuff, basically. I mean, he's just really good at what he does, but the, the team he has, I listened to the second nature one. I think it's more about business kind of.

• 16:46Speaker 01

  It is, yeah, yeah.

• 16:48Cameron Hanes?

  The Free Trail, uh, I don't know what else he's got, but I think Corinne Malcolm, is that her name? She's been like doing stuff with him or maybe just in appearance, but.

• 16:59Speaker 01

  She has, she has a podcast within his media.

• 17:03Speaker 02

  And then they also have done multiple times, uh, Western States broadcast together.

• 17:07Cameron Hanes?

  Yes.

• 17:08Speaker 02

  So they do different events together as well. They, they seem to.

• 17:11Speaker 01

  They did UTMB as well.

• 17:12Speaker 02

  They, they vibe well together as far as like going back and forth. They kind of have a little different skillset, but they seem to, I don't know.

• 17:19Speaker 01

  They offer the color, you know, they can tell the stories about the various athletes and, you know, fill in that time in those long races and in a really effortless way.

• 17:28Cameron Hanes?

  My favorite, I like, I definitely like all the trail stuff. I listen to pretty much, I love single track, Finn, I think is his name, does a good job. Super good guy. I'm getting a Hal on here. I want to have Hal, yeah, talk to him. But the what my favorite right now, just because they're a little more hot take type people is Coffee Club. Do you guys listen to that one? It's track guys. And they're like, good. Like elite track guys. And so they talk, kind of talk shit. It's pretty fun. Yeah, like they had Woody, somebody Kincaid, maybe? Yeah. Do you know?

• 18:07Cameron Hanes?

  He's like, a big 10K guy and 5K guy. So he was on, they talk about, you know, coaching changes from different teams to, you know, I think he went to Mike Smith, which is, I think, down in Flagstaff. But anyway, I like hearing all the elites. And I can't relate to that, but it's fun to listen to. Sure. You know?

• 18:26Speaker 01

  Sure. Yeah, the insider details.

• 18:28Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 18:29Speaker 01

  Well, and you get a lot of elites on yours.

• 18:31Cameron Hanes?

  For sure. But not talking shit. Yeah.

• 18:35Cameron Hanes?

  That's what I like. I like to, you know, you guys told a story earlier, and I won't mention the name, but like, you know, runners, running is saying, you're out of your, you're telling the other runner who's trying to challenge him, you're out of your league. Yeah. I love, I'd love if we could put names and stuff, but that's a kind of, that's fun.

• 18:53Speaker 01

  It is fun.

• 18:54Cameron Hanes?

  Probably not fun for the person who's like, got told they're out of their league.

• 18:57Speaker 01

  Yeah. I think people don't realize sometimes how much of the, the mind games happen in running. You know, you think, oh, it's a solitary sport, or you're just, you know, out there doing your thing. But man, these, these are competitors and they will mess with their competitors as much as they can.

• 19:14Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, you look at body language a lot, like running, like, it was just funny how we noticed that in 12 hours, passing people back and forth on Piska.

• 19:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:25Cameron Hanes?

  Everybody's fired up at the beginning, but you're like, seeing body language change. And so, and you know, the old, you guys have competed enough to know, like, if you're running, and somebody's behind you. You're not going to stop running to get around the corner. Right. When you get around the corner, if you're dying, that's when you stop where they can't see you. Right. Right? For sure. So yeah, it's it's all part of. Those are the mind games, right? It's so fun to, you know, and I don't know, I don't know if Courtney's the master at it. Cause I, there's no way someone could be as nice as she is and as ruthless at the same time. But, you know, she'll ask people, competitors she's racing against, like, do you need anything? Do you need waters, just like that? So I said, no way. You're not, that's not real. Right.

• 20:11Cameron Hanes?

  She, I know, I have no doubt she's as genuine as can be when she asked that. But the, the perception of the other person is like, you mother.

• 20:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, that might be the, that might be the ultimate mind game.

• 20:22Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, it might like, yeah, I'm so not worried about you, I'm willing to help you. Right, yeah. You need some water? Yeah, I'm not even running hard enough to need this water. You can take it. Yeah, no, it's a, but yeah, I love the, the mind games. I mean, this, uh, I love this, there's this one kid, he's getting really good at running. His name's Rodney Williams. He runs in Speedland, but he was big smile every time we passed him, big smile every time. And then it turned into like half smile, half grimace. Still trying.

• 20:56Cameron Hanes?

  But he did, he kicked that and it's a, yeah, you're a, what's your body goes during those long days is. So it's, it's special, it's powerful, it's painful, it's, man, it's just everything. Right? Oh, it's the best though. Yeah. It's the best though, it's like those, those tests in life, you know? We don't need to test ourselves like that nowadays. It's just, don't need to, we got it. Easy if you want it to be. Pretty easy if you want it, right? And so to, you know, intentionally put yourself out there and that shared suffering is what people talk about all the time. It's that community, you know, you talked about community and Courtney and I talked about this too.

• 21:38Cameron Hanes?

  But like all the people there at that race is just like, if you could capture that in a bottle or sell it as a drug, you'd be rich because it's, it's invaluable just, you know, how much love and support and respect. Everybody gave each other and is that, that. I don't know. It's, I don't know. You just feel really lucky when you're involved in, in things like that and experiences like that and with people like that. I know I do. But incredible.

• 22:06Speaker 02

  I think trail is unique in that way. Everybody at the end of the day is there to support each other and hold each other up. It's not a step on people to get by.

• 22:16Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, no, it's a, yeah, I don't know. It's, that's weird. I just think that like, once you get, you know, we kind of mentioned it in our meeting in there, but you can fake a lot of stuff in regular life.

• 22:29Cameron Hanes?

  When you're just beat down, it's hard to fake anything. It's just, this is just how I am. So, so, so love me or hate me. And so, you know, with, with life, when you, actually, the mask is off and it's a real person, that's, that's what's special. And that's what happens on those events, feels like. Yeah, so let's talk about, what do we got here?

• 22:52Speaker 02

  Let's talk, well, we already kind of mentioned the FPY, so that's next.

• 22:55Cameron Hanes?

  Right here.

• 22:55Speaker 02

  Then launch the road shoe. But then, then we come to a Coccodona pack, your pack here. So this, we're super excited about this. It's a, a new GS. You can see here, kind of aggressive.

• 23:11Cameron Hanes?

  That one.

• 23:12Speaker 02

  Coccodog pattern. Yeah, I think it's gonna be pretty cool.

• 23:15Speaker 01

  Got the Coccodona logo over here.

• 23:16Speaker 02

  Coccodona logo on one side, keep hammering on the other.

• 23:19Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 23:20Speaker 02

  And, and then we have a, a road shoe, the RX CCD to go with it. So that's the GS CCD.

• 23:29Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 23:29Speaker 02

  So kind of, Coccodona is kind of the, the perfect story for this, because anybody who's not familiar with that race is you, you obviously do a fair bit on the trail, but you also do a fair amount on the road as well. So having both is gonna be pretty exciting and. So, you know, hopefully that's, those are the, the shoes we'll see you running in when we're out there, which is.

• 23:54Speaker 01

  And you know, our reason for doing the road shoe is really around that notion of, you know, the trail athletes, even the most dedicated can't always train on trail. There's inevitably some moments where you gotta get road miles in. And we, we felt like there was a, an opportunity there for us to bring something new to that space, using what we've learned from our trail shoes, bringing that removable plate system into a road shoe and making a great trainer. It's basically the, the intent is to be a fast trainer, give you the same fit, a lot of the same functionality from our trail products, but in a, in a product that'll work great on the road.

• 24:33Cameron Hanes?

  Well, yeah, I mean, I'm, I'm running on, you know, if I run from here to Piscata, it's, you know, eight miles on the road. If I go from Spencer's to Piscata, it's about 10 miles across the town. So, yeah, I mean, road, road comes in, I just like, I mean, the, that shoe right there was so comfortable. I lo-, I love all your shoes, but it's just like, on the road, that was great. I ran with Tru at one time, and when he was here for Thanksgiving, we were going out, like, fast. And it was the first time I wore those, it was the other shoe that I, that I broke, but uh, it felt so freaking good. You know how those times when you, when you run and you feel light?

• 25:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:16Cameron Hanes?

  It rarely happens to me, but that day it did. And uh, man, so I, I relate, like, to me, I can be running and I can like, come to a place in the trail or the place, and I remember like, oh, I was listening to a podcast during this time, or I was listening to the music during this time, I remember, or there's runs where like, man, I remember that run, I felt so good and I was wearing those shoes. So I like have this anchor memory about.

• 25:43Speaker 01

  That's great.

• 25:44Cameron Hanes?

  I felt unstoppable that day wearing those shoes. And you can, that gets you through a lot of stuff.

• 25:48Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 25:49Cameron Hanes?

  You know, I mean, Courtney talks about her pain cave, and we learned a lot about it on the last podcast, but it's that mental part, you can attach something positive to. To, um, you know, whatever you're doing and man, it makes a big difference, but I'm super. So I haven't tried these yet, but I'm super excited just because they, they look badass.

• 26:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, we can't, we can't wait. So those will come around Coquandona time period, which is the first week of May.

• 26:14Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm.

• 26:15Speaker 02

  So we'll, we'll be out there with you. So that'll be, that'll be fun. And then after that, we have the, the

• 26:20Cameron Hanes?

  Yes.

• 26:20Speaker 02

  The boot.

• 26:21Cameron Hanes?

  Yes.

• 26:22Speaker 02

  So that's still a proto, but uh, it's getting dialed in, you can see, and uh, it's got the same bottom that you're feeling there is the

• 26:30Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 26:31Speaker 02

  Bottom from the GL. So that's a shoe that's out right now for us. It's testing and performing really well. Um, so we've made a kind of a fast light, uh, boot out of it for kind of early season hunt.

• 26:43Cameron Hanes?

  Right. Yeah. This is, I, I wore this, we didn't have it ready for the early season, but I did wear this. Um, it's super comfortable. Uh, what I like about is like good, good traction, of course, with the sole, but it's like, I mean, it gives so like, if you're on rock, basically like a, um, kind of a steeper rock, it's going to grip on there and you're not going to slip. It's got enough, but it's also quiet. So it kind of gives like, when I think about those old Vibram soles, remember those? They kind of had the longer

• 27:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 27:12Cameron Hanes?

  nub type thing. Those were super quiet and soft. It's like halfway in between that, cause that was long and those wore pretty fast because they were soft. So they're quiet while they lasted, but these are similar, but last longer. And uh, I know this log just from the trails, it sheds the mud pretty good. So you're, it's not gumming up in there.

• 27:32Speaker 02

  No, spacing's really

• 27:33Cameron Hanes?

  Losing traction.

• 27:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 27:35Cameron Hanes?

  Right. But yes, for a, for a boot, what I like in the early season, when it's generally hot,

• 27:44Cameron Hanes?

  bow season, in the mountains, uh, I like a light color like this, cause as you know, black absorbs. You know, I've had some darker boots where your foot just feels hot as, hot as hell. But uh, also just, just light, nimble, quick, allows me to take advantage when you train all the time in the mountains and sometimes hunting is about closing that distance. Like you see an animal in a position where okay, I want to take advantage of this. You got to be able to get over there quick for the wind changes of, or before the animal moves, before just something happens. And so these are going to allow me to take advantage of what my strengths are, which is like moving quick in the mountains. And uh, that's pretty exciting. Pretty exciting. I like.

• 28:26Cameron Hanes?

  Made some tweaks on this one also with a has the one boa here. Well, of course this that

• 28:33Speaker 01

  We tried to fix that. Very clear feedback.

• 28:37Cameron Hanes?

  Explain of laden text, but uh, this also like you tighten this down and then you can, you can pull this where it pulls the very bottom of these here.

• 28:46Speaker 01

  Right.

• 28:46Cameron Hanes?

  Cause that's, that's quite a distance to pull generally. Um, it's, if you look at compared to this, there's not as much cord pulling through as there, there. I don't know what the length is, but it's a little, it's, it's more on this. So you added this tab to pull that. And then that gives you, allows you to tighten that a little bit better.

• 29:05Speaker 01

  Yeah. This was some learning for us too, right? For a single boa system and using a boot height.

• 29:11Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 29:11Speaker 01

  So, you know, getting a great fit across a much broader area was, was some learnings for us. And, and of course, working with boa on how to optimize that. But the L plus one dial offers more power than what we have on a, on this, which makes sense. This is a bigger.

• 29:27Cameron Hanes?

  Right. You need tighter.

• 29:28Speaker 01

  Little, and then using the coated cable instead of the textile ensures the durability and the strength that we need for, for really cinching down. And then there's kind of a block and tackle around that midfoot strap.

• 29:41Cameron Hanes?

  Here.

• 29:41Speaker 01

  This approach, which really.

• 29:43Cameron Hanes?

  Double right there.

• 29:44Speaker 01

  Yeah. Double approach really ensures that your heel stays back in the heel pocket. So if in, in the learnings that boa shared with us and what we know from trying, that's really important in a product like this. You need to make sure you're, you're well held inside that boot. So you're not getting blisterous as you're hiking up and down pretty steep terrain.

• 30:02Speaker 02

  Yeah. So I mean, it's a serious piece of equipment. I, I don't think there's a boot quite like it out on the, on the market. Um, that's kind of in this zone of being light, fast, but also this technical.

• 30:13Cameron Hanes?

  Durable and, and durable. Yeah. And I, I just the, the little things like, well, as I told you guys, I look at shoes as like, How much do I have to, how much of a pain in the to get on, right? And I like how this opens up pretty good here. And so it's not hard to get on your foot. Easy to slide your foot in, then it tightens, tightens down pretty good.

• 30:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:37Cameron Hanes?

  Great. It seems like, I know what I use, the version I use, so this has been tweaked and made better a little bit, but the version I use is really nice, really good. I'm, I'm really excited to get this out there and that is not the qualities, money. Quiet, fast, gonna help me kill big bulls.

• 30:54Speaker 01

  Fast and light, that's what we're, yeah, we're inspired by.

• 30:57Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 30:58Speaker 01

  Carlos trips and

• 30:59Cameron Hanes?

  I know.

• 30:59Speaker 01

  Watching what you do there and, uh, you know, thinking that that GL platform, uh, really makes sense. It's not the high stack of the GS, but it's still got good cushioning. So you're out all day on your feet, moving and it's runnable, you know, I've, I've run in it just as a test.

• 31:17Speaker 02

  Definitely a runnable boot.

• 31:19Speaker 01

  It's a runnable boot. But, you know, not everybody's going to use it that way, but we like that you can.

• 31:25Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, if you have to. Yeah, I just like that. I mean, boa's been such an integral part of like this new technology into shoes. I know they've been around in ski boots and things like that for a long time. But man, they, you think something like this, just one part of this technology of this whole shoe or a boot, but it's such a key part, this boa, this boa system is incredible. And so they've taken just this one little thing and made a whole industry out of it.

• 31:54Speaker 01

  They've obsessed the details when it comes to that component. And I would say gone kind of the next level or two in terms of working with us in the optimal implementations. You know, hey, what guides you choose and your spacing becomes really important and they're, they're good partners.

• 32:11Speaker 02

  All, all of these, you know, they call it a fit wrap, but all, all of these fit wraps, they didn't start this way. They, they started kind of actually a little bit different. And then through working with them, going back and forth, we optimized them to get to these points.

• 32:27Cameron Hanes?

  The fit wrap is this part right here.

• 32:28Speaker 02

  It's this, yeah. Straps and like kind of the configuration and how it's set up and the routing and everything like they, those were perfected over time and testing.

• 32:38Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 32:39Speaker 02

  And the same goes for the boot, you know, you'd like, he was talking about the block and tackle. Like that's very unique. Like you're not going to see that setup anywhere else because we worked with boa. To get to that point.

• 32:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:51Speaker 02

  You know, so.

• 32:52Speaker 01

  And they've got, you know, Dan Feeney leads their biomechanics team. So they have a lab, they have testing that they do to validate these things. It's not just a supplier that's saying, hey, try this or do that.

• 33:03Speaker 02

  No, no.

• 33:03Speaker 01

  Leaving it up to you. Like they're helping and a good support in what actually works.

• 33:09Speaker 02

  Very cool.

• 33:09Speaker 01

  From a human performance standpoint. So it's a, it's a great partner to have when you're kind of pushing the edges of what you want to do with that system.

• 33:18Cameron Hanes?

  Hmm. Yeah. I mean, it's, I've been so impressed because now I've used boa for, well, we, we had it way back in the day on the Under Armour stuff, I think.

• 33:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:27Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. Yeah. So that was, that's been.

• 33:30Speaker 01

  Yeah. You've had it. You've been testing it for a while.

• 33:33Cameron Hanes?

  Seven years, maybe.

• 33:34Speaker 01

  But I think they've just, you know, gotten progressively better, honestly, over since that time.

• 33:39Speaker 02

  Those were L sixes, I think.

• 33:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, those were.

• 33:41Speaker 02

  These are the LI.

• 33:41Speaker 01

  Those are the LI twos, which is very, you know, can go backwards and forwards. And then on, on this boot, you know, that kind of wrap system that we have going. I mean, there's just stuff like that hasn't been done in boots before.

• 33:53Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 33:54Speaker 01

  To that degree. So.

• 33:55Cameron Hanes?

  Well, I know I have boots and really good boots that the bottom part down here has never been tight.

• 34:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:04Cameron Hanes?

  Never, these laces never move.

• 34:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:06Cameron Hanes?

  I mean, they've been the same, probably like maybe halfway down. And to get these tight down here, you'd have to, um, you know, like loosen up all the, all the way down. Guys just don't do that.

• 34:17Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 34:17Cameron Hanes?

  So half the boot has just stayed the same.

• 34:20Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 34:20Cameron Hanes?

  Whereas these will, you can actually, you know, contour to your foot to shoot, not getting that movement. But yeah, the way technology has enhanced what we do is incredible. And I think so, so many people are so used to like, they buy the same brand, like in, in, you know, whatever. Maybe they like the Dan or maybe they like whites, or maybe they like, there's some good boots out there, Zambrolan or, uh, whatever. But it's like, some of those boots, they've been great for a long time.

• 34:53Cameron Hanes?

  And they haven't made adjustments. They haven't evolved. Whereas this is like the highest evolution of, yeah, this, this boot isn't for snow. It's not for like late season or whatever. But for what it's built for, it might be the best ever, ever made for that quick, light, fast, dry climate. So that's, that's exciting.

• 35:16Speaker 02

  Well, and we, and it is exciting and we, we get there probably from a little different perspective too, because we're, we're starting in trail running and we're bringing what we're doing in trail running to the boot side versus just doing boots, right? So like if you look at that and that setup and how it's asymmetrical and how it's built, you know, you can obviously see the parallels of it coming from the GS. So there, there's a lot of things that we're able to kind of adapt and learn from our trail running side that maybe if you were kind of in more of those kind of, um, let's say nostalgic or old traditional boot businesses, you wouldn't approach it the same way.

• 35:55Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 35:56Speaker 02

  So we, we use that to our advantage, hopefully.

• 35:58Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. And that's, I mean, you can't critique them for just doing what they do and being the best at it. It's great. You guys have come from this way, doing the best, what you do, you're the best at this. And now you're, you know, transitioning to this. So yeah, it's going to be a little bit different. And maybe, maybe at the end of the day, everybody wins because it's all elevated, you know, or may, maybe.

• 36:19Speaker 02

  You hope so.

• 36:19Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 36:20Speaker 02

  People don't know what they're missing until they try something better, right? And that's, I think our mission too, is just, we want to bring products that we think are better to market. I mean, we're here to put a dent in the industry. That's plain and simple. Like, we're not coming just to be status quo.

• 36:35Cameron Hanes?

  I like that. I like that. Yeah. We're not trying to blend in. It's one thing I always get, like people still, for whatever reason, ask about the durability of the boa. I haven't had, I mean, I haven't had a failure. Do you guys ever, I, I think they're about as tough as it gets, but people, because it's, it's different, or they're used to laces or whatever, they're like, how durable, I mean.

• 37:00Speaker 02

  Oh, they're very durable, but, but even beyond that, and Kevin can speak to it more, but they offer a lifetime guarantee as well, which I don't think a lot of people know, like, so a lifetime guarantee and you can, you can rebuild them. You can do lots of things.

• 37:15Cameron Hanes?

  You know, they they are durable, though, at the core.

• 37:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I think the only thing that can happen is the lace eventually can fray, but it usually you have visible signs well before it breaks. You start to see it fray. You call BOA, they send you a replacement kit and you're never stuck. Uh, you know, and and so that's the, but it's rare. I mean, it, we don't get very many calls about.

• 37:38Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 37:39Speaker 01

  Um, and so again, you know, it's great to be partners with somebody who stands behind what they do. And so if there ever is an issue, um, and you know, they're very easy to service as well. Once you learn the ins and outs of them.

• 37:51Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, like I said, I've, I've had a lot of questions about the durability, but never had any like, yeah, I I had three break on, never. It's never been, it's always like, how does it do? It's never like anything negative.

• 38:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, I, I, I always find when people, you know, somebody, you know, people are still, for people that are still discovering Bo and they've never put it on their feet. Once they get it on their feet, it's like an instant aha moment, right? It's always like, wow, I haven't felt fit like this before.

• 38:20Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 38:21Speaker 02

  There you go.

• 38:22Cameron Hanes?

  No, it's, it's pretty. So now we're just thinking about this. Are these staying with me? Are you guys taking them back?

• 38:31Speaker 01

  Well, we were planning on taking them back, but convince us otherwise. They're not your size. These are your size. These are, these are samples.

• 38:39Cameron Hanes?

  Our size, yeah.

• 38:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:41Cameron Hanes?

  But I could, these are good church shoes right here.

• 38:47Cameron Hanes?

  If we did, if we did forget and leave them here.

• 38:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:51Cameron Hanes?

  These are sick.

• 38:52Speaker 01

  We'll get you some very soon.

• 38:53Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 38:53Speaker 02

  In your, in your size.

• 38:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, in the right size.

• 38:55Speaker 02

  I can't wait to get them.

• 38:56Speaker 01

  I don't want to cram in your, getting cramps in your feet during church.

• 38:59Cameron Hanes?

  I've done, I've done that before.

• 39:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:02Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 39:02Speaker 01

  No, I know. You've squeezed into nines before.

• 39:04Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, just for chilling, for getting coffee and stuff. But yeah, they look great. I mean, it's a, it's pretty exciting. I know. So like, um, we've talked about your four years and where you're at now. Um, what's the goal? Just making more cool shit? Keep growing?

• 39:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:25Cameron Hanes?

  Now, the boots are kind of a new category.

• 39:29Speaker 01

  New category. This is new for us and that's super exciting and you know, we talked about this from the beginning, that something we'd like to get to is a segment of our business that is built around the needs of you and people like you in terms of, you know, still serving a mountain athlete, but you know, looking a bit more at the boot and you know, this might be the first of several projects, we hope. So, you know, we can see, we have plans. This one's kind of fast, light, dry, non waterproof version, but we do, we are working on a waterproof version, which we'll test with you and make sure it stays waterproof and all the things that it would need to do, but it really gives us a whole other segment of consumers as well. Same with the running shoe, you know, the road shoe in the sense

• 40:12Speaker 01

  that we've been really hyper focused on trail and we always will be, but offering a road shoe all of a sudden means, hey, new consumers are going to find us.

• 40:20Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 40:21Speaker 01

  So through the boot and through the road shoe, we hope to broaden the number of people that know about Speedland and what we stand for. And then we keep building on that. We just keep making excellent product and who knows, you know, we stay with it until we get to 100 million or or somebody decides, hey, this is a nice little acquisition. I'm going to add this on to my business. You know, we'll see what happens. See what happens. We're open to whatever, but for us, we're just insanely focused on making great products and, you know, building this business.

• 40:50Cameron Hanes?

  Stopping at 100 million? Come on.

• 40:53Speaker 01

  I think the, I think the business potential is bigger than that, but you know, let's get to there first.

• 40:59Cameron Hanes?

  I was just thinking about this as we were talking, like, you guys haven't done slides, right?

• 41:04Speaker 01

  No.

• 41:05Cameron Hanes?

  In this.

• 41:05Speaker 01

  Not yet. We have, we have, we have our kind of our tenants that we have hanging in our office and one of them is, you know, we don't want to release something unless it's better.

• 41:15Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 41:15Speaker 01

  And I think in slides and in, I'll use air quotes when I say recovery, because recovery is just kind of meant a comfortable

• 41:22Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 41:22Speaker 01

  sandal slide clog that you put on after you run or do your activity. There isn't really a functional advantage to the vast majority of those.

• 41:30Cameron Hanes?

  We do have something in the works.

• 41:32Speaker 01

  We're working on something, but again, it's kind of like

• 41:35Cameron Hanes?

  This is not ready yet.

• 41:36Speaker 01

  The road shoe where we started that in a little different lane and we stopped because it wasn't better.

• 41:43Cameron Hanes?

  Hmm.

• 41:44Speaker 01

  And the same has kind of happened with the, with the slide or the recovery space where you try something and you think it's going to be one way. And if you can't quite get it there, you just push pause and at least we are because we're not in that relentless product cycle of a big brand. We're like, oh, we gotta get a $50 slide to compete with, blah, blah, blah. We want to come out with it when it's right for the athletes, when it's something better for the market.

• 42:07Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 42:07Speaker 01

  We don't need a slide, just another all foam slide.

• 42:10Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 42:11Speaker 01

  The market's filled with them and it's kind of price point sensitive. It's not performance oriented. So

• 42:17Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 42:18Speaker 01

  We, we want to do that, that business when it makes sense for, for who we are as a brand.

• 42:23Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. Cause I know I've, uh, I think it's Kane. They sent me some, and you know, I wore them around. There's supposedly recovery. I don't know what, what they do, but

• 42:33Speaker 01

  It's just comfortable, soft stuff.

• 42:35Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah. So it's, uh, I was just curious thinking about, um, yeah, everybody's making slides. So I was wondering

• 42:43Speaker 01

  We have, we have, we have something works.

• 42:45Speaker 02

  And we'd like to do something.

• 42:46Cameron Hanes?

  Not quite ready yet.

• 42:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:47Cameron Hanes?

  A slide with a boa. I haven't seen that.

• 42:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, we've prototyped it.

• 42:51Speaker 02

  We have, we have several times.

• 42:53Cameron Hanes?

  A fuck around Friday.

• 42:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, he's, he's done it for sure. He made many of those and, and it kind of becomes that thing where you can do it. Like we've made slides functionally that with a boa and they work great, but why are you doing it? And it's just to throw the boa on there.

• 43:09Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 43:09Speaker 01

  One thing is it, it, you know, boa costs something. It's a premium product. So is it appreciated on a slide? Most people just want to put their feet in and walk around.

• 43:18Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 43:18Speaker 01

  They don't want to dig around with anything.

• 43:20Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 43:21Speaker 01

  So it might be a misplacement of the technology. I think we, we've been concerned about that until again, we can find something that really

• 43:28Speaker 02

  It's just better. Everything's better. Like we honestly, we stand out like better trail shoe. Better road shoe, better early season boot, you know, like, and, and we can just stand behind it then. So then it's an easy dialogue between us and athletes, you know, and just be like, this is why we did it.

• 43:43Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 43:44Speaker 02

  And, and honestly, we do, we did have something we were working on on a slide, but it's just not quite ready for prime time yet.

• 43:49Speaker 01

  Two different times we've gone down the prototyping.

• 43:52Speaker 02

  But it's super exciting stuff. Like, I wish it was ready. It's just not quite ready yet. So we just have to, you know, we have to be disciplined, you know?

• 44:00Cameron Hanes?

  The, the performance, only performance I know on like a slide is the Crocs where you have the back strap. What's that called when it's the?

• 44:08Speaker 01

  Four wheel.

• 44:09Cameron Hanes?

  Four wheel drive?

• 44:09Speaker 01

  Four wheel drive mode, performance mode.

• 44:12Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, performance mode.

• 44:13Speaker 01

  And we've prototyped that too. But you know, that's a, a little bit of a stretch, I think, in our minds in terms of how much.

• 44:23Speaker 02

  Good for them.

• 44:23Speaker 01

  Can you really put it? Yeah. I mean, and they own it, you know, so we don't really want to be in the business of copying what someone else is doing either. So.

• 44:32Cameron Hanes?

  But it'd be better performance mode with a boa, four wheel drive mode.

• 44:35Speaker 01

  Yeah. You never know.

• 44:38Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. Well, so how you said, um, you stopped and started a little bit on the road shoe. Is that what you kind of mentioned?

• 44:45Speaker 01

  Well, well, initially we hoped that we could use the GS midsole. I'll just reveal that. We started it thinking, okay, maybe just a different outsole. And it would be a good road training shoe and it, it just wasn't, it wasn't, the geometry wasn't quite right. The, the firmness that we could get out of that foam. Like your, your, your molds are built around particular chemistry. You know, there's expansion ratios and all these technical things, but you can't just throw a new formula in there and get the same performance out. And so it just became clear that we weren't going to get to a great road training shoe without a different outer midsole.

• 45:24Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 45:24Speaker 01

  And so it went on pause basically until we. I would say found or we we leaned into this particular, which is a pretty special foam. I think you can attest to super high energy return. It just feels amazing. And when we put that on compared to where we had been, it was like, okay, this feels better. And then that combined with a removable plate. So now you've got a super trainer with a carbon plate. If you want that, it's not the same plate as the trail. It's a different plate.

• 45:53Cameron Hanes?

  Is it the harder?

• 45:54Speaker 01

  It's a rigid carbon. So if you want that.

• 45:57Cameron Hanes?

  If you put it on the table, it'd like, sound more like glass.

• 46:00Speaker 01

  Yes, exactly.

• 46:01Cameron Hanes?

  You know, whereas the trail is more flexible.

• 46:04Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 46:05Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 46:05Speaker 01

  And so between this special foam, the removable carbon plate, which gives you kind of two shoes in one, you can put that plate in and get your snappy speed work, or you can take it out. Now you've got a pretty cushy daily runner. And then the boa is kind of the third element that we felt like, really don't see a lot of that in road anymore. It had been, you know, in triathlon shoes with the brand called Zoot.

• 46:29Cameron Hanes?

  With what?

• 46:29Speaker 01

  There's a triathlon brand back in the day called Zoot. They used a boa way back.

• 46:34Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, okay.

• 46:35Speaker 01

  I mean, we're talking ten, ten, fifteen years.

• 46:38Cameron Hanes?

  Okay, gotcha.

• 46:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, but it was a different boa, obviously. But it was the idea of a quick transition. I don't think anybody, I think we're the only one, honestly, that has a, I mean, at this point, yeah. So I don't think anybody else has a boa on a road shoe. So then at that point, then you feel like, okay, we've got a better fit system. We've got a better approach to carbon. You kind of get two shoes in one. And we got a really special, high-energy return foam. Then it sort of passed our filter of, okay, we're offering something better. So we didn't, we didn't necessarily make it for the tri segment, but this shoe should appeal because it's going to be fast transition with the boa. So I think a lot of tri, uh, tri runners are going to like. Yeah, we're not positioning necessarily as a racing shoe. It's really a trainer, but. That being said, it's a very fast shoe. I think it's capable. Yeah.

• 47:22Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. What would be the difference between a trainer and a racing shoe? Weight? Just weight?

• 47:27Speaker 01

  We're still light. We're still in the eights. So it's an, it's still in the eights, you know, as far as, so it's a light shoe still, but. But the marathon racing shoes are six. You know, you get, get them down there in the six, so.

• 47:37Cameron Hanes?

  So you're talking ounces?

• 47:39Speaker 01

  Ounces, yeah.

• 47:39Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, so, yeah, like for, and most people, so I think they weigh, what, size nine?

• 47:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:44Cameron Hanes?

  Is that what everybody?

• 47:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, most people do. I mean, some people cheat and weigh an eight, five.

• 47:48Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 47:49Speaker 01

  You see Nike, you see Nike do that from time to time. They don't say it.

• 47:52Speaker 02

  When you look at the fine print, it says eight, five.

• 47:55Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, yeah.

• 47:56Speaker 02

  Caught you Nike.

• 47:58Cameron Hanes?

  So, size nine is in the eights for ounces.

• 48:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 48:02Cameron Hanes?

  So, you're saying like, like the a premium or like the, the lighter, the better for a racing shoe would be maybe sixes?

• 48:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, fives.

• 48:10Speaker 01

  I think that's where.

• 48:11Speaker 02

  Even if you got, yeah, there's some, you know, ultra light stuff coming out now.

• 48:15Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 48:15Speaker 02

  A little bit less even, but it's, it's also how much you trim it out, right? Like, we have a pretty decent size, um, okay, the cushioning on that's like forty, thirty-three. So, forty millimeters, thirty-three stack. So, it's got big cushioning. And then also the, if you look at the width on the bottom, it's got a pretty generous width, right? So, that lets you, you know, really be a, a really good train, uh, trainer as well. So, um, and the foam's very soft. So, you need a wide, you need a wide base. So, that's some of the differences.

• 48:45Cameron Hanes?

  I see.

• 48:45Speaker 02

  Fine lines between training and racing. That being said, a lot of people are, will race in this shoe.

• 48:52Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 48:52Speaker 02

  And it'll be a great ratio, especially with the plate in.

• 48:54Speaker 01

  Well, and you compromise something to get into the five or six ounce range. And I think when you look at some of those shoes, like they're narrow in the heel. Because if you're turning over five or six minute miles, you're only on your forefoot. So, that's why to me, those aren't, you see people wearing them around casually, but they're terrible because they're so unstable in the heel. The foam's really soft and if you're pronating, you're just rolling in all day long.

• 49:17Cameron Hanes?

  And yeah.

• 49:18Speaker 01

  Anyway, so we're, we just didn't take that approach to this. We haven't done a, a racing, proper racing shoe. We just think this is more of like a daily trainer that is raceable.

• 49:27Cameron Hanes?

  Very light, yeah.

• 49:29Speaker 01

  That's just not how we want to position it.

• 49:31Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, I mean, I know, I tried, I tried Hoka for a while, like when I was after Under Armour. And very comfortable for like the first few times and then that foam goes quick. You know, it's very comfortable. It just wasn't, it just didn't last. So, it's like you're trying to find this balance between durability, light. And yeah, there's a lot to, and also like when I was thinking like as you were talking, um, like I'm just curious, as a runner.

• 50:06Cameron Hanes?

  That impact on the ground. So if it's wider, it's it's distributed better for your body. Where if it's narrower, maybe it's more like intense on your bodies. Kind of what I'm thinking like. So when I look at this, I'm like, okay, that that pressure, that pounding is over a wider area has to be less impact or less effect on your body, I would think. As far as like chilling, sneezes, I don't know.

• 50:36Speaker 01

  Yeah. And the type of striker that you are too, you know, if you're a heel striker and you've got a racing product with a really narrow heel, then your body is kind of forced to correct a lot of that as you go through your foot strikes. You're working harder than you you should be.

• 50:51Cameron Hanes?

  Right, I see.

• 50:52Speaker 01

  Whereas if you're a four foot striker and you're just kind of snapping off the ground and popping off, that narrow heel never affects you because you're maybe late in the race, you're dropping a little bit. But otherwise, you're not really touching your heel. And so that's where that's less of a compromise. But in a trainer, you're going to be doing different paces and types of days. And we wanted to build it for all of that.

• 51:13Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, I know. Like, we put up a video yesterday, or I mean, I did, but these guys sent it to me of me and Courtney running side by side. And I was like, looking at like my shoe compared to her shoe in the Solomons. I wore Solomons one time on a on a mountain marathon in Orca Islands up there. It's kind of hard, hard race, but my feet got torn up just because Solomons were narrow for me. So when you talk about different feet, different strikers, it it does change. And when I look at like Courtney, that shoe she has is narrow, but her foot is probably super narrow.

• 51:50Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 51:50Cameron Hanes?

  You know, she's not a big person. And it's just like, yeah, so it's not one size fits all, obviously. But even just the shoe design.

• 51:59Speaker 01

  The design, it makes a big difference. And one of the reasons we like the fit wrap is it's very accommodating for a wide range. Like, you know, some brands.

• 52:07Cameron Hanes?

  This part?

• 52:07Speaker 01

  Yeah. So just that system. If you have a super narrow fit of a foot, that might be a little bit of a challenge because the material's got to go somewhere and cranking that thing down. But people with super narrow feet have challenges with lace up shoes too. They're bottoming out the high stays and stuff, but.

• 52:23Cameron Hanes?

  I've seen, I've had to tighten mine where it does kind of gather right here, but it's never. Cause me, I, I don't think this stretches. I don't know what happens, but it's, it's never been an issue, even if I had to tighten it like, maybe you'd want like a perfect would be like probably there. Yeah. But I've had it further and I've never had, yeah, cause a blister, cause anything. So like to your point, it does accommodate probably. I know when I think of this and people say they have wide feet, they, that's why they like these, but I don't have a wide foot and it still works.

• 52:57Speaker 01

  Yeah. So yeah, we've only had issues with fit with super narrow feet or low, we call them low volume. Cause it isn't necessarily about the width. Sometimes the people just have like a really low instep. And then, you know, we've got this booty construction where there's no tongue. So you can't overlap. Yeah, I see. And that means when they crank it down, that bunching that you might get a little bit of, which is not a problem. All of a sudden becomes a problem. There's so much of it. But it, it, you know, again, there's no solution that works perfectly for everyone, but we found that this is really accommodating for a wide variety of foot sizes. And it's that balance of, you know, focusing on ultra and trail, you want room in the toe box, but too

• 53:38Speaker 01

  much room and you're moving around, that doesn't feel good. And so finding that middle ground combined with the fit wrap.

• 53:44Speaker 02

  It's hard when you get into like the true like long distance stuff, like what you're about to do in, in a few months. Then, then you got, yeah. Then you, uh, yeah. And Cokerdona, because then you have people that have actually two, two sizes even. So they'll have their like early

• 54:00Cameron Hanes?

  Their feet swell.

• 54:00Speaker 02

  First half, first half, you know, they'll wear whatever size and they'll go up a half size or a whole size even for the second half of that race.

• 54:07Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. I was thinking like, uh, McKnight was.

• 54:10Speaker 02

  McKnight, McKnight does that. He would, he'll wear, he'll wear two different sizes.

• 54:14Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. Yeah. He was texting me to see if I was going to come down for heat training. He's going to be down there a couple of weeks before. And, uh, that would be a good time to. Because your feet do change, you know, with that heat and with obviously just the pounding, but.

• 54:29Speaker 01

  Well, and, and, and the, the foams change as well, you know, like we encourage people, if you can, to switch at a certain points because just the repetitiveness of being in it for 20 hours or something like, put a fresh pair on.

• 54:43Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 54:43Speaker 01

  And I think the boa is unique in allowing you to do that really quickly.

• 54:47Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 54:47Speaker 01

  You don't have to overthink it. And, you know, foot maintenance, foot, foot care is usually part of anybody's routine when you're

• 54:53Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, yeah.

• 54:54Speaker 01

  in the desert anyway. So taking your shoe off and being able to put it on easily and get a fresh pair so that foam gets, gets a chance to recover.

• 55:02Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. No, it's a, yeah, that's good. Well, that's, that's always been the big selling point on this boa is when your feet do change, you can back it off. We talked about this the last time where it does allow you to create more room for your, for your feet as conditions change and your body changes and things swell and heat causes different things. Or a lot of times salt retention. Sometimes you don't nail the salt in those long races. You're too much, too little. It affects, you know, your fingers so that obviously if your fingers are swollen, your toes are probably doing the same thing. And, uh, that can, you know, it's all those little things in a long race that add up. It's not the one thing. It's not like, oh, I got this one blister. It's like a lot of little tiny things. So this, if this shoe helps alleviate

• 55:47Cameron Hanes?

  some of those hurdles, yeah, then you're just focused on, if I can just run. So according to saying, she's like, wouldn't it be cool if we could just run together for a while? And I'm like,

• 55:57Speaker 01

  Are you going to try to stick with her?

• 56:00Cameron Hanes?

  I said I would, but, uh, it sounds terrible. I mean, is it a good, good, uh, strategy to blow up in the first 20 miles of a 250?

• 56:12Speaker 01

  Probably not. No, I would say probably not.

• 56:14Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, but I told her, I said, that's my goal, is to be able to hang and run for a little while and then.

• 56:20Speaker 01

  The first, the first 40 are the hardest too.

• 56:22Cameron Hanes?

  I know. Talking about that because it says they like require or something about taking.

• 56:30Cameron Hanes?

  How many ounces of water was that? Forty?

• 56:34Speaker 01

  I think it's more than that.

• 56:35Cameron Hanes?

  Is it? No, four liters.

• 56:36Speaker 01

  Four liters.

• 56:37Cameron Hanes?

  Four liters. So it's like, so she was saying that's 10 pounds of water. For her, 10 pounds of water is a lot of, you know, that's a lot percentage wise of her body. And so for the first, yeah, 50K.

• 56:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:51Cameron Hanes?

  That's supposed to be the toughest.

• 56:52Speaker 01

  To Crown, to Crown King.

• 56:54Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 56:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:55Cameron Hanes?

  So it'll be, it'll be good to hear, you know, McKnight, he's done it and he's done, struggled, he's done well. So it's like good lessons there. Courtney said she didn't think she was going to do the, the heat training, but you know, it does get warm up where she's at too sometimes. So it's a, yeah, I don't know.

• 57:13Speaker 01

  Swing at Kokadonna too, because it can be hot in the day, but then at night it got down.

• 57:17Speaker 02

  It got cold, the 30s.

• 57:19Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 57:19Speaker 02

  And it progressively gets colder as you go, obviously further into the race.

• 57:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:23Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, that's.

• 57:24Speaker 02

  Get to Flagstaff.

• 57:25Cameron Hanes?

  Kind of how Moab is too.

• 57:27Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 57:27Cameron Hanes?

  Moab was hot as hell to start and then it was like nine degrees up on the hill.

• 57:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's.

• 57:34Cameron Hanes?

  You start climbing, I can't remember what the mountain was there. I just watched Max's video of King of Moab. It's incredible. But yeah, you get there on the mountain and yeah, me and Taylor, we did that. Uh, the year Courtney won it outright, where everybody like, who the hell is Courtney? She won by 10 hours or the hell it was, but uh, um, we were, yeah, dying in the heat, the nine degrees freezing.

• 57:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:59Cameron Hanes?

  Same race.

• 58:00Speaker 01

  I think that, that's really tough on the body in addition to the sleep deprivation and everything else you've mentioned.

• 58:05Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 58:06Speaker 01

  Nutrition and so on.

• 58:07Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. I, I didn't want to talk about, uh, so this is the trail shoe, but I just, the, the polka dot stuff is, I love the looks of a badass shoe. So I'm trying to like steal this from you guys, but you guys did change the, uh, so this is a gator attachment right here.

• 58:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, we, we integrated it now.

• 58:24Speaker 01

  We had it as a loop that was stitched on to the Vamp.

• 58:27Cameron Hanes?

  For like the Roy shoe.

• 58:28Speaker 01

  Yeah. And we had done that on the HSV as well, one of the early commissions for Liz, because she wears a gator quite a bit. And then we just didn't love the execution of that stitched on loop and we had experimented with a local guy and doing some of that style.

• 58:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, it didn't look as good as that.

• 58:50Speaker 01

  No, I just ironed on some stuff and punched some holes for him to to try it and it worked well for him. And so we just kind of took that learning. It was a little bit like a fuck around Friday, but it was offline.

• 59:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 59:02Speaker 01

  And we learned how to do do it and then got the factory to execute it. And it's nice because it it's a cleaner execution. It doesn't add any more material.

• 59:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 59:12Speaker 01

  And then it allows also multiple positions. There's kind of three different ways you could put that on depending on how tight.

• 59:18Speaker 02

  Right. Again, something we've we've never seen done before, like that. So.

• 59:23Cameron Hanes?

  And is this for Velcro?

• 59:24Speaker 02

  That is for Velcro.

• 59:25Cameron Hanes?

  So does it stick pretty good back there?

• 59:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 59:27Speaker 01

  Yeah. And, you know, a lot of the times the the gaiters come with that.

• 59:32Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 59:32Speaker 01

  With an adhesive that's you try to stick on the shoe and it doesn't stay.

• 59:36Cameron Hanes?

  So you guys have it.

• 59:37Speaker 01

  So we just stitch it on. If you don't use it, it doesn't really get in the way. When you do need it, it helps the heel stay down. A lot of people don't use it at all because if you, you know, you have the tension running across there.

• 59:47Speaker 02

  You don't necessarily need it.

• 59:48Speaker 01

  It'll stay down without any Velcro, but we felt like it was a good thing to.

• 59:52Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 59:52Speaker 01

  Add.

• 59:54Cameron Hanes?

  No, that's that's a great looking shoe.

• 59:57Speaker 01

  Inspired by the, you know, the kind of the colors of the desert and the artwork that that they've done, that Arviva has done for the the Cocaladona logo. And so we kind of took that, combined it into this design. So it was rusty, rusty red color.

• 1:00:11Cameron Hanes?

  I I like the just that what Jamil has built with that Air Viper. I mean, he's doing so good. And I think I think buying out more things and growing more and trying to win Chipotle for a year.

• 1:00:26Speaker 01

  That's been a fun.

• 1:00:27Cameron Hanes?

  He's got a lot of stuff going on.

• 1:00:29Speaker 01

  They do a great job. They they run great races. They really know what they're doing.

• 1:00:32Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:33Speaker 01

  So I think you're not showing up to an event wondering how it's going to be like they've got that dialed in. And it's no small feat when you. We don't know the ins and outs of it like Jamil does, but we're close enough to it that you see how complex it really is when it comes to permitting and getting the crews there and volunteers and the coordination with law enforcement at the races. It's challenging and kind of a thankless job, but they do an amazing, amazing work.

• 1:01:02Cameron Hanes?

  And I think Courtney mentioned this too, but that live streaming is, I think we talked about that's like the big, big thing. Cause I was talking about the Olympics. I'm like, we need ultra in the Olympics. People would pay attention. I mean, I know I'm addicted to the GPS tracking on these races. So, Air Viper does it a whole nother level with the live, live broadcast during the whole thing. And that's going to be, Courtney mentioned, I don't want to take credit for saying this, but she thinks that's going to be the big, big thing. It's like people just love.

• 1:01:34Speaker 01

  We, we agree. It's changed from like looking at a tracker and trying to, you know, look at something on a website into the live streaming, like people like Dylan and Corinne talking, you know, giving you background on the athletes and, and then, you know, people running along with the runners during the race and getting the drone.

• 1:01:55Speaker 02

  Cocalona is an interesting one because so much of the landscape, you can, you can use drones and you can use different functions. Like where some of the races, you know, you're either too covered or it's too, it's not allowed maybe. But Cocalona, there's just so much opportunity. So, I mean, you can really do some different things there.

• 1:02:11Speaker 01

  And it is an unlock for the sport to be able to really bring in people who maybe wouldn't take the time to follow a tracker and just kind of a boring interface. Now you've got color commentary and you've got amazing visuals from these cool places and you can really see how the race develops and it's making a big difference.

• 1:02:29Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, definitely. It's a, yeah, I'm excited to get down there.

• 1:02:35Speaker 01

  You can do the heat training?

• 1:02:37Cameron Hanes?

  Going to be miserable. I don't know. I gotta do Boston first. So that's, I gotta get that out of the way. So I think I'll do, I'll have these by then, right?

• 1:02:46Speaker 01

  By Boston, yeah.

• 1:02:47Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. I mean, the road shoe.

• 1:02:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:02:49Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:50Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:02:50Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:52Cameron Hanes?

  Now, this is, so for this one, I'm gonna need a pocket knife to cut this off right now.

• 1:02:58Speaker 01

  That shouldn't be there. That I just, I just adjusted that.

• 1:03:03Cameron Hanes?

  How much is this way?

• 1:03:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, no, that won't be there. That won't be there. I promise. Yeah, you get to see the prototypes. I was just trying to show them that they had it in the wrong position. Anybody watching, that's not what it's gonna look like.

• 1:03:14Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, that, anybody watching, that's how my, I'm always like.

• 1:03:19Speaker 01

  Cam's always trying to like, trim everything off of her shoes. Anything of excess, he's trying to pull it off. And we're like, no, it's there for a reason.

• 1:03:26Speaker 02

  It's a good challenge, though.

• 1:03:28Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, no, I, I love what you guys are doing. I just love being, I, I mean, I'm so thankful to be involved. And we talked about this, like, I'm not like, an Olympic athlete. I'm not this, on the podium for these, for UTMB or Western. But, I love what we do, and the sport, and impacting people. And I, you know, I'm addicted to all this, everything that I do. And it's, uh, it's just an honor to be involved with you guys. And, and hopefully creating something that, that makes a difference, makes an impact, you know? And, and enhancing people.

• 1:04:01Speaker 01

  We, we feel the same way. And, you know, for us, it's, it's a, it's a give and a take, right? This is getting, the boot is getting us into territory we probably wouldn't have gone into without the relationship with you. And I think it's gonna make us better as a company, as a brand, but it'll, stuff will trickle back into the, the trail side of stuff, too. You know, that's always the way it works. So, we're excited about the future.

• 1:04:24Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, me too. Do you, uh, so, yeah, I mean, we've talked a lot about this. Is the goal just in the future, just more cool stuff, more innovation?

• 1:04:35Speaker 02

  All of the above.

• 1:04:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, we're built around innovation, so that's a key component of what we do. And, so we're always, uh, we'll be back in. You know, on the ground, uh, hunting again in March and you know, we're always looking for new materials, new opportunities and how we can up level the product from the littlest details to, you know, big audacious ideas. So.

• 1:04:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:04:57Cameron Hanes?

  I also think, I also think I have to do Leadville now. So.

• 1:05:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's, that's definitely should do it.

• 1:05:04Speaker 01

  Really cool. Another well-run event.

• 1:05:06Cameron Hanes?

  I think, I think me and Truitt are doing it. So should be fun. Yeah.

• 1:05:11Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, you know, that's a tough one due to the altitude and an amazing event, not, not the most technical race.

• 1:05:19Speaker 02

  The coolest thing about Leadville is you can almost spectate the whole thing.

• 1:05:22Cameron Hanes?

  Really?

• 1:05:23Speaker 02

  As a spectator.

• 1:05:24Cameron Hanes?

  Have you guys ever run it or?

• 1:05:25Speaker 02

  We haven't run it.

• 1:05:26Cameron Hanes?

  Been there.

• 1:05:26Speaker 02

  I'd like to run it someday.

• 1:05:28Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:28Speaker 02

  I need to do some training, but, but, um, but the, you can get to so many of the, um, aid stations there.

• 1:05:36Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:36Speaker 01

  Well, it's an out and back.

• 1:05:37Speaker 02

  And it's now out and back. So you can really almost cover it aside from Hope Pass, you know, the big, the pass, the big technical section. You can almost see the entire race. So as a spectator, I, I don't, I mean, it's definitely one of the best races, right?

• 1:05:51Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. I think so too.

• 1:05:52Speaker 02

  Probably why there's.

• 1:05:53Speaker 01

  Pretty good for spectating.

• 1:05:54Cameron Hanes?

  Been some good films on it. You know, if you look up Ultra Films, Leadville's, you know, Billy Yang has had, he had a great one there, but other people have too. I think Anton had, I didn't watch that one, but I think he, did he have a film on it or just a comeback? Do you remember?

• 1:06:10Speaker 02

  I don't, we were there when he was doing a comeback a few years ago. Um, I don't know if he had film. I remember Billy was filming that same year.

• 1:06:16Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:06:17Cameron Hanes?

  But yeah, those films are so good and, and the story of Leadville is so cool.

• 1:06:21Speaker 01

  Oh, well, we'll be, well, I hope you do. We'll be at the expo.

• 1:06:26Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 1:06:26Speaker 01

  So it'll be, we'll be there.

• 1:06:29Cameron Hanes?

  I'm doing it. Truitt, Truitt says he's doing it in jeans.

• 1:06:32Speaker 01

  Oh my God.

• 1:06:34Speaker 01

  Dude, I might rethink that, but you know, he seems committed to it. So who am I to say? I know, I know. Well, yeah.

• 1:06:44Speaker 03

  We have Peanut Gallery has two questions.

• 1:06:46Speaker 01

  Oh, you did?

• 1:06:46Speaker 03

  Yeah. Okay, these questions are for the boots.

• 1:06:50Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:06:50Speaker 03

  And I wondered, you know, a lot of hunting boots also offer an insulated version. Is that on the horizon as well? Is that something you guys have considered?

• 1:06:59Speaker 01

  It's definitely something we'll consider. I mean, this is squarely in the camp of what Cam asks us for. And if there's a need for an insulated product and we feel like we can do something better, then we'd absolutely do that. And that's, I think, what we meant when we talked about sort of expanding that segment of product that's built around Cam and people who work or use products like Cam. If the insulated product is a need, then for sure we'll get after that.

• 1:07:25Speaker 03

  Okay, this one's from Larry.

• 1:07:27Speaker 04

  All right, my question. Looking at the boots, I know my time in the military, guys were super, super, super loved the, like the Solomon boots.

• 1:07:38Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:07:39Speaker 04

  And looking at those boots and hearing Cam describe, you know, how they benefit his kind of approach to tracking an animal, quiet, good grip. Have you guys ever moved into or considered moving into like the military space in terms of guys wearing those boots, boots on the ground? It seems like something that maybe some good wear testing could come from.

• 1:08:01Speaker 01

  For sure. I think, you know, we're interested in that space for sure. There's some, let's say, compliance things. If you're actually going to be something that's part of the military, you got to be very compliant and means made in the US or with the US. And that presents some challenges at the moment. We would love to manufacture in the US. There's just not a factory that is capable of making our stuff. Unfortunately, that stuff got off short in the 70s. And so that presents some challenges. But that being said, as we understand it, special forces have a little more leeway with what they can use. They get to buy their own stuff. And so to work with groups like that and test and get feedback and develop something,

• 1:08:41Speaker 01

  we'd certainly be keen on that. That would really just require us to have somebody in that space who could do the testing and tell us from that specific viewpoint. Like, we can all sit here and ponder what might be appropriate. But, you know, again, we would never do that without fully vetting it through those channels. And so. Something we hope to be able to do.

• 1:09:04Speaker 02

  I think too, if you're wearing that Solomon product, like you were talking about, this boot is going to be a pretty interesting option for you. You know, it's going to offer better fit and go after a lot of that same, same market, I guess.

• 1:09:20Cameron Hanes?

  And this is as American made as Solomon is.

• 1:09:23Speaker 02

  Exactly. Yeah. So operators have a, yeah, they have a choice.

• 1:09:28Cameron Hanes?

  When, when Tanner was a Ranger, they wore a lot of Patagonia. So they, they do have, yeah, it's, it's big army that controls.

• 1:09:37Speaker 02

  Correct.

• 1:09:37Cameron Hanes?

  You know, and normally is, yeah.

• 1:09:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:09:40Cameron Hanes?

  It's just different.

• 1:09:41Speaker 01

  And we, that's a community we would love to, to serve and, and be a part of. We kind of got a, in, in, I think our opinion, you want to get pulled in there. You don't want to push your way in. You want that adoption to come because they try it and they tell you it's working and then they tell you what's not working. And then you can say, okay, well, we're going to go after this and we're going to, maybe that's the starting point. Be great if we got some feedback from that community. And then telling us, okay, well, this doesn't work for us. And then we can, you know, adjust and go from there. So we'd like to add that on. We just need it to happen in an authentic.

• 1:10:14Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. Well, now it's put out there in the, what do they say? The zeitgeist? Is that a thing?

• 1:10:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:10:24Speaker 01

  Right place, right time.

• 1:10:25Cameron Hanes?

  So now it's out there.

• 1:10:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:10:26Cameron Hanes?

  Any more peanut gallery stupid questions?

• 1:10:29Speaker 02

  All right.

• 1:10:30Cameron Hanes?

  Okay. So now I'm going to do another sign off. I don't care what you say.

• 1:10:34Speaker 01

  That's a bother me. People will find it entertaining if we left it. It's good either way.

• 1:10:39Cameron Hanes?

  Maybe we'll do both, but no, I want to have it. Thank you, Kevin Fallon. Thank you, David Dombrault.

• 1:10:44Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:10:44Cameron Hanes?

  How's that?

• 1:10:46Speaker 01

  Beautiful.

• 1:10:47Cameron Hanes?

  Speed land. We're kicking. People are paying attention. I love to be involved. It's an honor to be involved. Thank you guys for coming down today.

• 1:10:56Speaker 01

  All right.

• 1:10:56Speaker 02

  Thanks for having us.

• 1:10:57Cameron Hanes?

  Keep hammering.