Keri Russell on ‘The Diplomat,’ Powerful Women, and Loving the Mess

Keri Russell never dreamed of becoming an actor. But she’s built an impressive career playing nuanced and complex women in critically acclaimed series like “Felicity,” “The Americans” and most recently “The Diplomat,” which has earned her three Emmy nominations in as many years. Kara sits down with Keri to discuss the new season of the hit Netflix series, created by “The West Wing” and “Homeland” veteran Debora Cahn. They talk about bringing Ambassador Kate Wyler to life, working alongside greats like Allison Janney and Rufus Sewell, and what it means to play a skilled, serious, yet imperfect woman in Hollywood. They also dig into some real-life diplomatic drama, and Keri fields an expert question from former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton. Season 4 of “The Diplomat” premieres October 15th on Netflix. Questions? Comments? Email us at [email protected] or find us on YouTube, Instagram, TikTok, Threads, and Bluesky @onwithkaraswisher. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Kara Swisher?

  I wanted to be a spy, actually.

• 0:02Kara Swisher?

  Who doesn't?

• 0:02Kara Swisher?

  I really did. I could still be one, and you don't know it.

• 0:05Kara Swisher?

  You could still be one.

• 0:06Kara Swisher?

  I could still be one.

• 0:06Kara Swisher?

  You have a great cover now. You would have been so good, actually.

• 0:10Kara Swisher?

  Maybe.

• 0:11Kara Swisher?

  Negotiating.

• 0:11Kara Swisher?

  Maybe not. Maybe you would have been at war with, like,

• 0:14Kara Swisher?

  Everyone.

• 0:15Kara Swisher?

  Like Luxembourg.

• 0:28Kara Swisher?

  Hi, everyone. From New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network, this is On with Kara Swisher, and I'm Kara Swisher. Today, I'm talking to Keri Russell. She's the star and executive producer of the critically acclaimed Netflix series, The Diplomat, created by West Wing and Homeland veteran Debora Khan. Season four premieres today. And spoiler alert, if you haven't seen the series yet, we'll be talking about seasons one through three. Keri plays Ambassador Kate Wyler, a career Foreign Service officer who's plucked from the background and appointed ambassador to the UK, a high-profile role that initially seemed softer and more ceremonial than she'd prefer. But Kate's experience and diplomacy skills are quickly tested as she faces one geopolitical crisis after another.

• 1:12Kara Swisher?

  At the same time, she's navigating a complex marriage to her husband, former Ambassador Hal Wyler, played by Rufus Sewell, who is a charming and ambitious political strategist. Keri has received three Emmy nominations for her role in The Diplomat. Prior to this, she had an acclaimed six-season run as the star of The Americans, where she played a 1980s Cold War KGB spy, living undercover in the US with her husband, played by her real-life partner, Matthew Reese. Keri's big breakout, of course, was Felicity, a network drama about an earnest and bright college student coming of age in New York City. I really want to talk to Keri Russell because I think she's one of these enduring actors who has really enveloped roles that she's been in. She's very poignant in many ways, and at the same time,

• 1:57Kara Swisher?

  portrays really complex women, which I think is really important today. Our expert question today comes from none other than former US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, so stick around.

• 2:18Speaker 02

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• 2:50Speaker 03

  I'm Anna Garten, and each week on Happy Hour, I invite new and old friends for a drink and a fun conversation at my kitchen table in New York City. On this week's episode, I'm joined by Julia Louis-Dreyfus. We talk all about attending a fashion show in Paris together, throwing dinner parties, and making her Broadway debut in other desert cities. New episodes of Happy Hour are available every Wednesday. You can watch on YouTube or listen wherever you get your podcasts. Cheers.

• 3:27Speaker 04

  Hey, everybody. Sue Bird here. This week on Bird's Eye View, I'm thrilled to be joined by none other than Flage Johnson, aka Big Four. We talk about what it's like being a young guard in the league, blocking five-time MVP Asia Wilson, and breaking rookie records, including one of mine. But first, Flage and I preview what to expect from the WNBA Finals between the Golden State Valkyries and the Atlanta Dream. Make sure to check out Bird's Eye View on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts.

• 3:59Kara Swisher?

  Keri, thanks for coming on On. Thanks for having me.

• 4:02Kara Swisher?

  So, explain how we met.

• 4:04Kara Swisher?

  I wrote you a fan letter.

• 4:05Kara Swisher?

  You wrote me a fan letter.

• 4:06Kara Swisher?

  I wrote you a fan letter.

• 4:07Kara Swisher?

  You did, but it was on AOL.com. And I thought it was fake.

• 4:11Kara Swisher?

  That's right.

• 4:12Kara Swisher?

  I thought it was fake. And I didn't respond. And one of your showrunners for The Diplomat said, "Keri wrote you a note, and you didn't respond." And I said, "That's not a real Keri Russell."

• 4:25Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, I wrote, I think I wrote you and Scott. I wrote Pivot, the fan. I just said, "You guys are great." It was a couple of years ago, or last year or something?

• 4:32Kara Swisher?

  Yes, yeah, yeah, a couple of years ago.

• 4:34Kara Swisher?

  And from my AOL account.

• 4:35Kara Swisher?

  I know. Is that, you still have your AOL?

• 4:37Kara Swisher?

  I still do. Me and the grandmothers.

• 4:39Kara Swisher?

  Oh, wow. Wow. Amazing.

• 4:42Kara Swisher?

  Amazingly, Matthew, my guy, also has AOL.

• 4:46Kara Swisher?

  I've heard he's your guy. I've heard he's your guy. He also has an AOL. And you use them, and you proudly use them.

• 4:51Kara Swisher?

  Proudly.

• 4:51Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, you're trying to make it cool again.

• 4:52Kara Swisher?

  Yeah. We know nothing about tech. Like, zero. And the AOL fits right in.

• 4:58Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, it's perfect. I love it. I do still have my AOL accounts, but I don't use them.

• 5:02Kara Swisher?

  You still keep them?

• 5:03Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, I have a better one at Gmail, because my ex-wife was one of the creators of Gmail.

• 5:08Kara Swisher?

  Yes, so you got one right away.

• 5:10Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, yeah. Anyway, I appreciate it. It's nice to meet you in person. So, I'm thrilled you're here. And I was just telling you, I watched the whole season four, and I'm, we can't talk too much. We don't want, it's a lot of plot spoilers.

• 5:22Kara Swisher?

  It is a lot of plot spoilers.

• 5:22Kara Swisher?

  But let me tell you, it's a lot. But let's start earlier. You played complicated women. They're all complicated women, essentially. Felicity, who was complicated in her own sort of nerdy, sweet way. Elizabeth Jennings, an undercover Soviet spy in The Americans, who was complicated in kind of a mean way. And murderous, of course. And Ambassador Kate Wyler on The Diplomat. Vulture described Kate as "a hyper competent hot mess."

• 5:47Kara Swisher?

  I accept.

• 5:48Kara Swisher?

  Is there a through line that you've drawn or ultimately focus in on?

• 5:53Kara Swisher?

  I think my only through line is the writing. I think that's what interests me most. In all three of those shows, I think that's the real star of the show, is the writing. It was J.J. Abrams, it was Joe and Joel for The Americans, and then Debra Khan, who is just exceptional.

• 6:15Kara Swisher?

  But in your characters, are you trying for anything, or just different every time?

• 6:19Kara Swisher?

  I think I'm just looking for something relatable, or some world that I want to explore. It usually is some combination of funny and serious. And I want to recognize the people.

• 6:36Kara Swisher?

  Well, they're nuanced, actually.

• 6:37Kara Swisher?

  Yes.

• 6:37Kara Swisher?

  And that's unusual. One of the reasons I like them is because they're complex people who are not any one thing.

• 6:43Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, no, which most people are.

• 6:46Kara Swisher?

  Yes, they are, but often females are not portrayed that way.

• 6:48Kara Swisher?

  Yes.

• 6:49Kara Swisher?

  You know, either they're harpies, or stupid, or, you know, etc.

• 6:53Kara Swisher?

  Or like, embarrassingly perfect at everything. That's just not the way life is.

• 6:59Kara Swisher?

  Yeah. What attracted you to each of the roles? I mean, the first one was the big opportunity, right, as a young actor?

• 7:03Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, I was a kid, I was like 21, I think. Yeah. And that was just, yeah, I had read that script. I thought it was really funny. And it was so sweet. It's such a sweet little poem of a story, of this, like, sweet time in college. And it's still sweet now. And now Netflix is, like, re-airing them all, which is hilarious and great. But J.J. and Matt Reeves, who directed that, they've gone on, obviously, to do incredible things. So they were really talented artists, too. And then The Americans was just such a, I mean, that character was awesome. So completely different than me.

• 7:47Kara Swisher?

  So much cooler, and sexier, and dark. And that was just such a departure, and so fun to do that. And this is probably the closest to me, The Diplomat. But again, it's just a world that I'm interested in. It's fictional, but it's just adjacent enough to things that I am interested in in the world. And just, she reminds me, the character reminds me of my friends that I see. They're a mess, they're smart, they're funny, they're all the things.

• 8:16Kara Swisher?

  Right. You remind me of a couple of people I know in The Diplomatic Corps. Absolutely. So we're going to talk about The Diplomat, but let's talk about the beginning. I'm not sure people know this, though. Well, you were cast in the all-new Mickey Mouse Club in high school alongside co-stars Justin Timberlake, Ryan Gosling, and Britney Spears. But you said you didn't grow up desperate to be an actress, and you're pretty introverted. So why did you audition then, and why did you stick with it? What did you take away from being a Disney kid?

• 8:42Kara Swisher?

  I mean, I was a dancer. That's the only thing I'm really trained in. And I just went with a bunch of my dance friends to, like, a big, you know, one of those casting calls you hear about, where there's like 300 kids waiting outside. I just went with my friends and happened to get it. My parents knew nothing about this world. And...

• 9:03Kara Swisher?

  I just did it. So we did it in the summers and we filmed it at Disney World.

• 9:10Kara Swisher?

  In Florida.

• 9:11Kara Swisher?

  In Florida. It was just, it was amazing. It was just like, what a wild, weird little teenage thing. And luckily, I would do it for the most part in the summer and then I'd go back to school. So it was just like a little dipping your toe in it kind of thing.

• 9:28Kara Swisher?

  When you think back on it, I mean, the group you were with, too.

• 9:31Kara Swisher?

  They were, when I was 17, they were 12. So the really famous kids were a step younger. You know, when you're 17 and 12, there's a, there's a big difference. They were wildly talented. Like, honestly, I can't sing. I can sort of dance. But those kids were like, it was very clear. And I guess, I don't know, it was so long ago. And when you're a kid, you're just sort of, you remember things differently, too. I don't know. I was still thinking about like, who I had a crush on. You know, I wasn't thinking like, oh, I hope I'm going to be a great actress or something. I was like, oh, I want to make out with that guy. Or, you know, whatever. It wasn't, I wasn't serious about that stuff.

• 10:12Kara Swisher?

  Right, right, right.

• 10:14Kara Swisher?

  But it was, it was a good entree into this like crazy adventure of life.

• 10:18Kara Swisher?

  Of acting, right. So you were in your early twenties when you got Felicity. You won a Golden Globe for your performance the first season. The show has now found new life in the streaming era. Why do you think the show resonates? I mean, I, it was an important part of my younger period of my life.

• 10:33Kara Swisher?

  It was?

• 10:33Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, sure.

• 10:34Kara Swisher?

  Oh, my gosh.

• 10:34Kara Swisher?

  Yeah.

• 10:36Kara Swisher?

  I don't know.

• 10:36Kara Swisher?

  There wasn't much on that was good.

• 10:38Kara Swisher?

  Right. It was sort of whimsical. And I, no, you know what? I think it was...

• 10:42Kara Swisher?

  Freaks and Geeks was the other one.

• 10:43Kara Swisher?

  That was, yeah. I think it was, it's just about a time when things aren't decided yet. And that's such a sweet time. I have teenagers now. And we were talking about one of the friends, one of the boys, who was like falling in love with somebody. And we were like, oh, my God. Like, even getting your heart broken. It's just such a, and everything feels so big and beautiful. And, and I think that's why the show. It's about that time when things are so enormous and, and not destroyed or cynical yet.

• 11:18Kara Swisher?

  Right. Although it's harder for college students now.

• 11:21Kara Swisher?

  Well, of course.

• 11:22Kara Swisher?

  It's a very different world.

• 11:23Kara Swisher?

  It's a whole other thing.

• 11:24Kara Swisher?

  Because they've grown up under Trump for that long.

• 11:26Kara Swisher?

  Their whole life. I know.

• 11:28Kara Swisher?

  Their whole life, you know? I'm trying to think what defined our lives. 9/11, the before that.

• 11:34Kara Swisher?

  Before that. It's, so maybe it's like this little stuck in time little show. We didn't have phones. We didn't have any of that.

• 11:44Kara Swisher?

  No, not at all. None of it.

• 11:45Kara Swisher?

  Thank God.

• 11:46Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, I know. Exactly. Do you watch it again? I know you did a little cute social media thing on it.

• 11:52Kara Swisher?

  I haven't seen it in a long time. No, I don't watch it. But I, I mean, my kids have never seen it. I tried to get my, I have three kids and my middle is a girl. And over COVID, I said, you know, you might like this show. And she was like, ugh, no, Mom, no.

• 12:07Kara Swisher?

  My kids do, too.

• 12:08Kara Swisher?

  They're like, no.

• 12:09Kara Swisher?

  Yeah. I do that. I'm like, I interviewed someone and they're, so I finally am like interviewing people they like. So they'll listen to it. Right. But no, they don't listen to me at all.

• 12:17Kara Swisher?

  No, yeah.

• 12:17Kara Swisher?

  But are you gonna watch it?

• 12:20Kara Swisher?

  I'd watch it. I'd watch it if Willow wants to watch it. But yeah, because it's, it's so long ago that I have some distance.

• 12:27Kara Swisher?

  Yeah. So then you, your next big series was into The Americans, which was created by a former CIA agent, Joe Weisberg and Joel Fields, as you said, set in the cold era of the 1980s. And this, this character was Elizabeth Jennings and a very deeply devoted KGB spy who's adept at spy craft, very adept and cold, very cold.

• 12:48Kara Swisher?

  Yeah.

• 12:48Kara Swisher?

  That last scene, I have to say, in Moscow, just killed me. Just...

• 12:52Kara Swisher?

  That, the end?

• 12:53Kara Swisher?

  The train station was, but then the last scene.

• 12:56Kara Swisher?

  Where you're like, oh, this is, this is it.

• 12:58Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, this is it.

• 12:59Kara Swisher?

  Yeah.

• 13:00Kara Swisher?

  You've joked that you're not sure why they cast you as the lead in that show. And do you understand why you were cast? Do you, do you have a better...

• 13:07Kara Swisher?

  Yeah. John Langraff, who runs FX, who's so interesting as a head of a, of a studio network, he said, well, I think it was his idea, actually, because he wanted it to be someone who looked like the person next door, the girl next door, but then had all this training. And I think I was a good fit for that because you think I'm going to be Felicity or something like that. And then you end up being...

• 13:36Kara Swisher?

  Not.

• 13:37Kara Swisher?

  Very not.

• 13:37Kara Swisher?

  Murderous Felicity.

• 13:38Kara Swisher?

  Yeah.

• 13:39Kara Swisher?

  Murderous Felicity.

• 13:40Kara Swisher?

  With blown out hair and like high heeled shoes and cat eyeliner. Yeah. Yeah, it was amazing.

• 13:47Kara Swisher?

  When you think about how that arc went, what do you remember? Obviously, you met your husband there.

• 13:55Kara Swisher?

  Yeah.

• 13:57Kara Swisher?

  And, wait, I don't know. You're married. You're not married.

• 13:58Kara Swisher?

  We're not married.

• 13:59Kara Swisher?

  That's right.

• 13:59Kara Swisher?

  Living in sin.

• 14:00Kara Swisher?

  That's okay.

• 14:00Kara Swisher?

  Yeah. Yeah, no, I love, I like it like that.

• 14:02Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, you don't need paper.

• 14:03Kara Swisher?

  I don't need paper.

• 14:04Kara Swisher?

  I don't need paper.

• 14:05Kara Swisher?

  I don't need it.

• 14:06Kara Swisher?

  Stinking...

• 14:06Kara Swisher?

  Yeah.

• 14:07Kara Swisher?

  Only gay people want to get married and go in the military.

• 14:09Kara Swisher?

  What is everyone doing? I know, I know. Well, you got remarried. You've been married twice.

• 14:14Kara Swisher?

  I'm a married girl. I'm a married lady. Yeah, I am. Yeah.

• 14:17Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, I don't care about it.

• 14:18Kara Swisher?

  I wanted to go in the military, too. I'm just telling gay people, the only people that want those two things.

• 14:23Kara Swisher?

  It's so true. It's so true.

• 14:24Kara Swisher?

  But when you think about that experience, how do you remember? And why do you think it hit? Because six seasons is a lot, right?

• 14:30Kara Swisher?

  It is a lot. And, you know, it's not, it was sort of a slow moving show. It was really kind of cerebral and slow and sexy. And I don't know, it was just unlike anything else. And I'm surprised in, in a way that it, it hit. I, I think the smart critics really liked it and that helped us. Like, I don't think we ever had, in the beginning, good ratings. And then the right people were writing about us. And I think that helped.

• 15:02Kara Swisher?

  Right.

• 15:03Kara Swisher?

  So we had like this slow burn of a, of a following. But it's also, anytime you have the luxury of looking back on a period, it's just, it's so interesting because you can go, oh, yeah, that's, that's what was really going on. And, you know, make it bigger or smaller, fictionalize a few things. But, so you're getting to relive certain things. And I think that was an appeal, too.

• 15:28Kara Swisher?

  You also allowed her to be very cold and calculating.

• 15:31Kara Swisher?

  I loved that.

• 15:32Kara Swisher?

  I mean, I think I started to really hate you when you killed that lady in the Autobot, that, that scene. I don't remember her name. I was so upset at you.

• 15:39Kara Swisher?

  I mean, it was, but it was so fun. It was so fun to get to do that.

• 15:44Kara Swisher?

  Yeah.

• 15:45Kara Swisher?

  And Joe and Joel always said they wanted her to really follow this, but there was some like feminist rulebook. I'm trying to think what it was based off of, where every single character choice for Elizabeth, they followed it. Like, she didn't make a decision for anyone other than herself, not for her family, not for, it was always, you know, what she wanted to do. And, and they also based a lot of her earlier things on Gloria Steinem. Like, that's the reason they had her dating this like kind of, that Black Panther

• 16:25Kara Swisher?

  character. I think that was the first season. Yeah, they, it was an amazing job.

• 16:31Kara Swisher?

  Complex lady.

• 16:32Kara Swisher?

  Oh, my God.

• 16:33Kara Swisher?

  So after six seasons of The Americans, you took some really distinct roles. You had a stint on Broadway with Adam Driver in Burn This. You later joined him in the Star Wars film playing spice runner named Zori Bliss in The Rise of Skywalker.

• 16:44Kara Swisher?

  A little, little small part, but it was just how fun.

• 16:46Kara Swisher?

  Zori Bliss.

• 16:47Kara Swisher?

  Oh, my God.

• 16:47Kara Swisher?

  That would be my complete hotel name.

• 16:50Kara Swisher?

  Yeah. Porn name. That's like a porn name. Yeah.

• 16:52Kara Swisher?

  Porn name. Porn name is your dog and...

• 16:54Kara Swisher?

  And the street you grew up on.

• 16:55Kara Swisher?

  Right. What was your porn name?

• 16:56Kara Swisher?

  Mine was a cat. So it was Felina Grandview.

• 16:59Kara Swisher?

  Oh, nice.

• 17:00Kara Swisher?

  Is, what's yours?

• 17:01Kara Swisher?

  Prudence, Prudence Glenwood.

• 17:06Kara Swisher?

  Ah, that's so good. It's so stupid.

• 17:09Kara Swisher?

  Long Island. But you also starred in a raucous horror comedy, Cocaine Bear, directed by Elizabeth Banks, which was a wild ride. What, what were you looking for, anything new when the script for The Diplomat came along? Or what drew you to that role?

• 17:21Kara Swisher?

  It was just Deborah's writing.

• 17:22Kara Swisher?

  Because these are all different.

• 17:23Kara Swisher?

  Yeah. There, it was Deborah's writing. And I loved the banter between the husband and the wife. I loved their like no holds barred, like crazy, acerbic, fighting relationship. And that world interests me. I didn't know that much about the Foreign Service. I didn't know that much about diplomats. They're so fascinating. They're the smartest, curious. And they also have this great need for travel, like adventure. It just satisfies a lot of things that I'm interested in.

• 17:59Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, I tried to be in the diplomatic corps, but I, I was gay at the time and I couldn't get in.

• 18:05Kara Swisher?

  You could still do it.

• 18:06Kara Swisher?

  I'm not gonna do it.

• 18:08Kara Swisher?

  You don't need to do anything.

• 18:09Kara Swisher?

  I wanted to be a spy, actually.

• 18:10Kara Swisher?

  Who doesn't?

• 18:11Kara Swisher?

  I mean, I really did. I could still be one and you don't know it.

• 18:14Kara Swisher?

  You could still be one.

• 18:14Kara Swisher?

  I could still be one.

• 18:15Kara Swisher?

  You have a great cover now.

• 18:16Kara Swisher?

  But I, I went to the Foreign Service School at Georgetown. So...

• 18:19Kara Swisher?

  Did you really?

• 18:19Kara Swisher?

  So I think a lot about a different life, you know, sort of like sliding doors kind of thing, which would have been interesting.

• 18:25Kara Swisher?

  You would have been so good, actually. Negotiating.

• 18:29Kara Swisher?

  Maybe not. Maybe you would have been at war with like...

• 18:32Kara Swisher?

  Everyone.

• 18:32Kara Swisher?

  Like Luxembourg.

• 18:34Kara Swisher?

  Why Luxembourg?

• 18:35Kara Swisher?

  Why? Because I wanted to say something rude to you. So I'm going to play a clip from The Diplomat. This is from the first episode of season three, Vice President Grace Penn, played by Allison Janney, who's...

• 18:46Kara Swisher?

  The best.

• 18:46Kara Swisher?

  Is about to become Commander in Chief following a sudden death of the President. Kate is trying to persuade Grace to do a swearing in at the American Embassy in London, not Winfield House, the Ambassador's plush residence in Regent's Park. Let's listen.

• 18:58Kara Swisher?

  It's formal. It's a ceremonial space. Podium, couple of flags, we're good to go. Or the embassy. The move is a risk. The embassy's a fortress with Marines and a moat.

• 19:08Speaker 05

  Based on her analysis of my safety, she would strongly prefer no move.

• 19:13Kara Swisher?

  The embassy is granite slabs and soaring ceilings and a 12-foot eagle on the wall. It is a not at all subtle monument to American power. Ma'am, we're not swearing you in in front of 18th century hand painted wallpaper. It...

• 19:26Speaker 05

  Makes you look like someone's granny.

• 19:31Speaker 05

  We're going to do it at the embassy.

• 19:34Kara Swisher?

  Before becoming ambassador, your character Kate was was used to being behind the scenes. By season three, she's definitely more comfortable in her role. So what is so quintessentially Kate in this scene? How did you add to it as an actor?

• 19:47Kara Swisher?

  So much is on the page. Deborah is such a specific writer. She's so detail oriented.

• 19:56Kara Swisher?

  Yes, she is.

• 19:57Kara Swisher?

  And I love that. I love the messiness.

• 19:59Kara Swisher?

  Very detailed, specific.

• 20:01Kara Swisher?

  It's so specific.

• 20:02Kara Swisher?

  As I said, she was a writer on West Wing and Homeland. And so is it challenging as an actor when doing this kind of detailed, specific dialogue? Or do you love that?

• 20:10Kara Swisher?

  It's muscular dialogue for sure. I wish I had 30 years of diplomatic experience, so it would certainly make this a lot easier. But for me, I love how she's taking this really important world, but then making it about the minutia of every day. You know, you're mad at your husband or wife, or you didn't eat, or you spilled something on your thing, and now you're embarrassed, or you know, you're sweating and you're embarrassed about that. I love the physicality of Kate. I really love that part of her. And I love that she's always kind of getting in over her head, kind of in that Holly Hunter

• 20:55Kara Swisher?

  broadcast news way. That's what I really love about it.

• 20:58Kara Swisher?

  But totally competent and not really getting in over her head.

• 21:01Kara Swisher?

  Right, well.

• 21:02Kara Swisher?

  Smarter than everyone else in the room.

• 21:04Kara Swisher?

  She she thinks so.

• 21:05Kara Swisher?

  Yeah. That line from broadcast news is exactly, how does it feel to be?

• 21:10Kara Swisher?

  It's so, it's so hard.

• 21:12Kara Swisher?

  It's so hard, right?

• 21:12Kara Swisher?

  It's awful, actually.

• 21:14Kara Swisher?

  Yeah.

• 21:14Kara Swisher?

  Something like that, yeah.

• 21:15Kara Swisher?

  When you're doing all that very specific dialogue, I mean, of course, you have the West Wing where Deborah worked, and you have, that was famous for that. There's a couple of shows like that where there's very complex language that is highly specific.

• 21:28Kara Swisher?

  It's, it's, it takes practice. We watch everyone come on the show and it's, there's a learning curve, you know, and, and people stumble and I just go, stay in it. Don't give up. Like, I'm here with you, let's just keep going. Because it, people don't talk like that all the time, you know? It's a skill. It's this trained thing that your, your mind and your whole thing has to kind of get used to. And everyone sort of is wobbly at first and it takes practice.

• 21:59Kara Swisher?

  How did you get more?

• 22:01Kara Swisher?

  I struggle all the time, especially, you know, the older I get, like, it's harder to remember things. But just practice, just, just practice. I write it down sometimes.

• 22:13Kara Swisher?

  I firmly believe that audiences like smarter dialogue than we think.

• 22:16Kara Swisher?

  I agree.

• 22:17Kara Swisher?

  You know, that's how I do my podcast. Everything else, it's much more prepared.

• 22:20Kara Swisher?

  Of course.

• 22:21Kara Swisher?

  Substantive. When you have something this complex, were you worried at all?

• 22:25Kara Swisher?

  That it would be too dense?

• 22:27Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, it's not like Lioness.

• 22:29Kara Swisher?

  No, no, it's the, no. I mean, I think it's a good combination of snackable substance. You know, it has a little fluff. It has like fights in bushes and things.

• 22:40Kara Swisher?

  Right.

• 22:42Kara Swisher?

  But it is full of substance. Deborah broke down a scene one time for something and she says, there's a, there's a system. You introduce the difficult idea, then a little bit further on, you introduce it again. So the first time audiences are sort of like, oh, what was that? I don't quite grasp everything. Then the second time it's introduced again, oh, I caught a little bit more of it. And then you introduce it the third time and then everyone's caught up.

• 23:12Kara Swisher?

  Oh, interesting.

• 23:12Kara Swisher?

  Yeah.

• 23:13Kara Swisher?

  Huh.

• 23:13Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, so there's an actual, like, system to it.

• 23:16Kara Swisher?

  Yeah.

• 23:16Kara Swisher?

  You're not supposed to grasp everything right from the beginning.

• 23:19Kara Swisher?

  Right, right. And you're trying, that's sort of very chess-like, the discussions, even the personal relationship ones.

• 23:24Kara Swisher?

  Definitely.

• 23:25Kara Swisher?

  And I'll tell you, this season is all straight people processing, like, I've never, they never process like this. I'm sorry. No straight people I know process like this.

• 23:34Kara Swisher?

  I know, it's not great.

• 23:35Kara Swisher?

  I felt like it was a lesbian collective.

• 23:36Kara Swisher?

  A lesbian, I love it.

• 23:37Kara Swisher?

  I was like, you're all lesbians, each of you. And I don't like to process like that, so it's funny. But especially you and your husband.

• 23:45Kara Swisher?

  It's a lot of processing.

• 23:46Kara Swisher?

  Rufus.

• 23:46Kara Swisher?

  A lot, a lot.

• 23:48Kara Swisher?

  A lot, a lot. I'm like, stop talking about a relationship, just have it.

• 23:50Kara Swisher?

  I know, just do it.

• 23:51Kara Swisher?

  Yes.

• 23:52Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, I know, there's like 16 page scenes about it.

• 23:55Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 23:58Kara Swisher?

  We'll be back in a minute.

• 24:12Kara Swisher?

  Support for the show comes from Rippling. You just found out your sales team is at risk of missing quoted. Don't panic, just ask Rippling AI. Since it's built on your real time people and business data, Rippling AI can pull metrics from Rippling and Salesforce into a meeting ready dashboard, which shows quota attainment, headcount plan, and monthly revenue to quota by region. In seconds, you'll see exactly what's behind your quota risk and fix it before it's missed. Question answered, action taken, crisis averted. When you have a critical business questions that need answers, don't just file a ticket and wait weeks for an outdated report. Describe what you need and have Rippling AI build it instantly from your live people and business data, whether it's a dashboard with detailed charts or automated workflows with the right triggers, conditions, and approvals. Ready to rule your business?

• 24:57Kara Swisher?

  Head to rippling.ai/kara. Get the only AI built to give you full visibility and take complex actions across your entire organization. That's R I P P L I N G dot A I slash Kara. Sign up for exclusive access today.

• 25:16Kara Swisher?

  Support for this show comes from Framer. The future of website building is one that seamlessly blends all the tools we have available. And you should use a platform that has it all and stays useful even after you launch. That's what Framer is. Framer is the AI website builder that helps creators, teams, and businesses ship production ready sites faster than ever while getting every detail right. You're able to prompt, inspect, edit, and publish in one place at a whole new pace. On Framer, agents and humans work in tandem. Agents bring speed and scale while people bring taste, judgment, and control. And that all takes place in the same workspace where the real site is designed, managed, reviewed, and published. Everyone's ideas land on the canvas, stay editable, and can be published when the team is ready.

• 26:00Kara Swisher?

  Framer is an enterprise level solution. Thousands of businesses from early stage startups to Fortune 500s are choosing to build their websites in Framer, where changes take place in minutes instead of days. Learn how you can get more out of your site from a Framer specialist or get started building for free today at framer.com/kara for 30% off a Framer Pro annual plan. That's framer.com/kara. Rules and restrictions apply.

• 26:30Speaker 06

  Whenever fall comes back around, it always feels like a fresh start. This year, I've been layering in some styles from the new Lululemon fall drop because the weather is shifting and I find I have to be ready for the entire day and not just one part of it. Lululemon's fall line has some really versatile transitional pieces, so I can just wake up, throw on a matching set, add a jacket or a fleece, and head out, knowing that I'll feel comfortable enough to go wherever the day takes me. Check out the new fall arrivals in-store and online now at lululemon.com.

• 27:01Kara Swisher?

  Now, every episode, we get a question from an outside expert, and I apologize in advance for this one.

• 27:06Kara Swisher?

  Why would you apologize?

• 27:07Kara Swisher?

  Here's yours.

• 27:08Kara Swisher?

  Bring it on.

• 27:09Kara Swisher?

  Take a look.

• 27:10Speaker 03

  Hi, I'm Hillary Clinton. I used to be Secretary of State. I know a lot of diplomats, and I have a question, or maybe two or three, for Carrie Russell, who stars in The Diplomat. Honestly, where are you getting these ideas? Who goes and pulls a dress out of a drawer and wears it to Buckingham Palace? I don't know about that. Or every time you show up, something seems to explode. Honestly, Carrie, I do appreciate you bringing attention to being a Foreign Service Officer and serving our country, which is a pretty cool thing to do. But you have put badass into ambassador, that's for sure.

• 27:48Kara Swisher?

  Epic. Oh, my gosh, Deborah is gonna lose her fucking mind. Oh, my gosh, that's so great. You know, I met Secretary Clinton when we were filming in London at Ambassador Hartley, when she was there.

• 28:06Kara Swisher?

  So dignitaries come through London and often will have dinner at Winfield House, or they'll prepare, or it'll be a stopover on the way to a flight or something. And so Secretary Clinton was passing through and Jane Hartley said.

• 28:22Kara Swisher?

  This is the former ambassador.

• 28:24Kara Swisher?

  Former ambassador. She said, Hillary, do you want a dinner? Do you want us to, you know? And she said, yeah, I want a dinner of 20 really smart, funny women. And I got to go, which is unfucking believable. There was, it was so, it was, you know, female editor of The Guardian.

• 28:49Kara Swisher?

  She's amazing.

• 28:50Kara Swisher?

  Female editor of FT.

• 28:52Kara Swisher?

  Another amazing woman.

• 28:53Kara Swisher?

  It was that amazing Australian Prime Minister. It was all of these, Christiane Amanpour, who sat next to me. I mean, it was so.

• 29:03Kara Swisher?

  Kara.

• 29:04Kara Swisher?

  It was the best. It was like one of the best nights in my life, just sitting there and, and Hillary just having this robust, fun, frank conversation. It was just.

• 29:16Kara Swisher?

  She's different in a room, isn't she?

• 29:17Kara Swisher?

  She's so warm, she's so funny.

• 29:19Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, funny.

• 29:20Kara Swisher?

  She's so capable.

• 29:21Kara Swisher?

  That's what we're gonna do in this new podcast.

• 29:22Kara Swisher?

  I'm so glad you're doing, I cannot wait for that.

• 29:24Kara Swisher?

  Because people don't know her.

• 29:25Kara Swisher?

  They don't.

• 29:25Kara Swisher?

  They don't, yeah.

• 29:26Kara Swisher?

  She's.

• 29:28Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, I'm gonna make her the Betty White of politics.

• 29:30Kara Swisher?

  She is, she's so great.

• 29:32Kara Swisher?

  She's so good. But she was joking there, I mean, she wanted to do a joking one.

• 29:35Kara Swisher?

  Oh, it's so good.

• 29:35Kara Swisher?

  But she is like, it's so dramatic. Like, I'm like, Hillary, it's a frigging fictional thing. It has to be a little bit.

• 29:40Kara Swisher?

  You have to make it, it has to be.

• 29:42Kara Swisher?

  Because the UK ambassador doesn't have this much.

• 29:45Kara Swisher?

  She's not like slinking around.

• 29:47Kara Swisher?

  There's not people like choking each other. There's not, you know, like that kind of stuff.

• 29:51Kara Swisher?

  It's a TV show.

• 29:51Kara Swisher?

  Yes, it's what I said.

• 29:53Kara Swisher?

  It's a TV show.

• 29:53Kara Swisher?

  It's a TV show. But what were you trying to, because you want to portray someone who's smart, but it also has to have dramatic.

• 29:59Kara Swisher?

  Right, so you want to seem competent, but you also want it to be funny. And you want it to be, I mean, was Hillary, you know, taking off her clothes and jumping in a pool to like get her point across? Like, I don't know, maybe. There's, she's still got time.

• 30:15Kara Swisher?

  She also wasn't making out with the Foreign Secretary.

• 30:18Kara Swisher?

  We don't know that. We didn't have that.

• 30:22Kara Swisher?

  She might have been. I, I, I would put it faster. You make out with a lot of people. I make out with a lot of people. You make out with a lot of people on this show. I do. Like a lot. I know, a lot. Yeah. I know. Less making out this new season, less. Less making out, I know. Less making out. More like boring marriage. Boring marriage. But, but, because there's bigger fish to fry, I guess. Correct, that's correct, yeah. Now, it's also a wish fulfillment. It is. You know, of. Massive. The idea of who stands up and who doesn't, which is really important. It was really, um, yeah, and we don't have to give anything away, but, um, I think a way to say it without giving things away is. What would you do? What would you do if your boss, even though you love your country, you love your

• 31:06Kara Swisher?

  job so much, but what do you do when your boss asks you to do something you don't agree with that might even be illegal? And how far along do you go before you completely lose yourself? Or you don't, or you go along. I'm about to interview Jacob Weisberg, who just wrote Profiles in Cowardice, and also at the same time, I'm going to know Michael Lewis, who's written a book about the blockers of Doge, which is two different things. It's like, I think right now, we all wonder how, what you're willing to do. I deal with the tech moguls who. I know. Are constantly acquiescing. It's a really interesting thematic thing. It's what do you do? And most people go along. Because it's hard. Yeah. It's really hard to not. Right.

• 31:48Kara Swisher?

  And everything I love about this show, aside from like the fun of it, but the root of, you know, the Foreign Service and like USAID, and those people, I just have such affection for and respect for. And, um, where this season ends, I, we just, I hope if any of them watch it, that there's just, that they feel recognized, that they feel seen, and especially what happens through line with Stuart's character, you know, he's sort of the moral compass of the show in a way, and for him to go through that whole arc, it's for them, it's, it's for, you know, everything that they've gone through. Because in past seasons, you've done things on the edge, too, at the same time.

• 32:33Kara Swisher?

  And who determines what the edge is and who we are as people, which is really important, I think. Yeah. It is a good question. I was just talking to someone recently about what do we do with all these people who have compromised? Yeah, what do we do now? When it's over. Yeah, because it's going to be over. Yeah. And then what do you do? I don't know. Uh, you know, I was in a writer's meeting, we, we sit in rooms with all these incredible people and ask them questions. Because you're executive producer of this, too, yeah. And, um, we were in with one of, an ambassador, and, um, we were like, I know, but what do we do, you know, when it's over? And he's like, no, no, it, it's broken. It's, it's broken. It is. He goes, we're going to have to build, rebuild. It's, it's broken.

• 33:17Kara Swisher?

  And we were like, ugh. Easy to break, hard to fix. Sort of like the link that, you know, easy to break. They're all easy to break. That, I think, has been the biggest lesson, how easy it is to break things. Yeah, I mean, demolished. Right, which is, I think, you depict really well. Now, you do a lot of research, you've spent time with former Ambassador Jane Hartley, only the second female ambassador to the UK in 200 years. Isn't that insane? What'd you learn from talking to these ambassadors? What's incredible about them is, um, like, watching Jane operate, she can talk to anybody. She makes everyone feel comfortable. She's so smart, she can follow everything, all the conversations, she knows about everything, she's read everything, um, and also is like really graceful, too.

• 34:00Kara Swisher?

  Like, they're just, um, really competent, alive people, and they're fun to be around. And just fascinating, though, their specialties, how they choose to use their intellect, their experience, their, they're just fascinating people. And how they speak and present themselves. Yeah. Now, you just noted, you're in the room, you're an executive producer on this show. What does that do for you? Because a lot of people are executive producers, how involved are you from a creative perspective? Like, talk a little bit about what a gray area is like when you're the EP and also the lead. Um, how is it different? Um, you have to be a good example, you know, you can't be a brat. I mean, not that I would be a brat, anyway, but, you know, that's part of it. You don't strike me as a brat.

• 34:45Kara Swisher?

  Yeah. You have to, you know, show up, you need to, you know, lead by example, and, I don't know, you get to take part in the overall piece more. You know, you're asked questions and you get to help make decisions about who's directing, who's the director of photography. Why do you want to do that? I think you should, but. You just, you just have more control over it. Your opinion matters a little bit more. Mm-hmm. Is that important for especially? Yeah. Yeah, I want to, yeah, yeah, for sure. Uh, you want to have your stamp on it a little bit more, and you want to know that, you know, I don't work all the time, I, I take long breaks in between.

• 35:29Kara Swisher?

  And so you just want to know that when you do work, it's the quality that you want.

• 35:36Kara Swisher?

  We'll be back in a minute.

• 35:50Speaker 06

  Whenever fall comes back around, it always feels like a fresh start. This year, I've been layering in some styles from the new Lululemon fall drop, because the weather is shifting and I find I have to be ready for the entire day and not just one part of it. Lululemon's fall line has some really versatile transitional pieces, so I can just wake up, throw on a matching set, add a jacket or a fleece, and head out, knowing that I'll feel comfortable enough to go wherever the day takes me. Check out the new fall arrivals in store and online now at lululemon.com.

• 36:20Kara Swisher?

  Hi, everyone, I'm Kara Swisher.

• 36:21Speaker 05

  And I'm Scott Galloway.

• 36:23Kara Swisher?

  Twice a week, we get together on Pivot to sort through the biggest stories in tech business and politics, and we're taking the show back on the road for a live tour in November.

• 36:31Speaker 05

  So we'll bring hot takes, I'll bring the insight, and the dick jokes, and Kara will try, keyword is try, to keep me in check. You'll get to see her hit me in person, live.

• 36:43Kara Swisher?

  I'll do it, if someone has to do it.

• 36:45Speaker 05

  We'll cover AI, whatever chaos Washington has cooked up that week, and every billionaire misbehaving.

• 36:51Kara Swisher?

  That's all of them. And you'll also get to participate in an audience Q and A, so bring your best questions, Scott will probably answer ones you didn't ask. We also have secret special guests, which you'll enjoy for every city. Get tickets at pivottour.com, that's pivottour.com.

• 37:06Speaker 05

  We are selling out, so don't wait, and we look forward to seeing you.

• 37:13Kara Swisher?

  I'm Kara Swisher, and I like people who say the quiet part out loud. In fact, I love it. That's Tiger Sisters, a new podcast that recently joined the Vox Media Podcast Network. Cherie Brooke Lu and Jean Lu are real sisters who built their careers at LinkedIn and Goldman Sachs. On their weekly podcast, they're giving the next generation practical tips on how to get ahead, how to write emails people actually answer, how to make your LinkedIn profile stand out, and how to keep learning as an adult. It's straight talk about money, career, and relationships every Monday. Follow Tiger Sisters wherever you get your podcasts.

• 37:49Kara Swisher?

  Now, Kate's relationship with her husband, former Ambassador Hal Weiler, played by Rufus Sewell, is at the heart of the show. They're fiercely competitive and supportive of each other at the same time, and teeter on the edge of divorce at the start of the series, all the time, really. All the time, all the time. Emily, I was like, just break up. I know, it's, it's true. Emily Nussbaum in The New Yorker called it a tricky marriage, that quote, feels less like a love affair than a NATO negotiation. Talk about that dynamic, and how would you describe the marriage? It is a tricky one to describe, but I, I think that's just their language. I think they are, they're a couple that is sort of loosely based on this couple that Deborah knows. I know, I think I have an idea of who they are. Yeah, um, they're, you, you definitely know these people.

• 38:34Kara Swisher?

  They're based on this couple that Deborah is really close with, and they are both really passionate, smart people who fight with each other all the time. And are also career competitive. Totally. And, um, I just think. And she started off at a lesser, he was sort of the lion. I think so, yeah, yes. Absolutely. Yeah, and, um. And she surpasses him. Yeah, and, and I think the main thing about the relationship is the power is always shifting. So, one year, he's like in this really powerful position, and then the next year, suddenly

• 39:15Kara Swisher?

  she's doing something interesting, and he's in the wanting part of it. I think they're fiercely protective of each other, which is a really good quality, and I think, like, their love language is sort of that debating, political, I think they both want to change the world and be in the room. Also think they're the ones that have to do it. The ego is enormous. I think a lot of those people. Oh, yeah, oh, yeah, yeah. And one of the, I think, almost the saddest thing is their phone conversations, and when they say goodbye, bye, click. Yeah, yeah. It's really. It's sharp. It's sharp, it really, they're both wounded in a weird way.

• 39:59Kara Swisher?

  Definitely, and I think even if they were to be divorced, they would still be that close. Like, they're just, they're that couple, they, which is a really fun. So how would you describe it? Um, like, impossible and great and exciting, and, um, I, I love their relationship. You know, like, you have that person who, when you see them, they just know everything, and they know what you did and your personal story. And they know where to get you. They know where to get you. And they often do. They never don't take the opportunity to wound each other. To wound, yeah, and I think that's, they'll be that forever. Yeah. Whether they're together or not. Yeah, to, by the way, art is imitating life, the White House just asked Kimberly Guilfoyle to. resign as US Ambassador to Greece. I'm sure you based your character on. I did. Everything.

• 40:44Kara Swisher?

  Pay my American Express bill. Could you die? I mean.

• 40:50Kara Swisher?

  Oh, crime and plain sight. You can't write it. Crime and in plain sight. I mean, it's. Oh, man, too corrupt for the Trump administration. That's an interesting. Wow. Wow. Wow. Oh, her? Oh, that's the one? That's where you're gonna draw the line? That's where they're drawing the line. It's too much. It's too much. I won't pay the bill.

• 41:08Kara Swisher?

  It's like, oh, my god. How dare you steal money when I should be the one stealing money? It's so stupid. Yeah, it is really stupid. Yeah, exactly. And of course, they're taking the girl down. The girl. Yeah, that's too much. Yes, exactly. We can steal money. This is too much. Not her. Not her. Back to your show. You need a character like that, like who's not a career one. You should drag one in, like one of the friends, the president, kind of thing. Yes, yeah, exactly. Now, Kate, speaking of Kate, she does not dress like an ambassador. She's visibly uncomfortable in anything but her black pantsuit. She will put on a dress and heels when she absolutely has to and immediately take the heels off when she has to move. Talk about the look of the character, because there are definite choices. Costumes and wigs were a big part of your character in The American. It's true. What were you doing here?

• 41:54Kara Swisher?

  I love that part of the character. I think. The unmade bed. I love it. I love it. I think, I think so many women in front-facing positions have to look a certain way. And it's uncomfortable. You know, not everyone wants to dress like that. And I think Kate thinks what she's doing is important and it has nothing to do with that. So she's like, why would I dress like that? I'm here for my ideas. Yeah. I'm not here to be, you know, a fashion model or something. And my hair doesn't need to look a certain way. I'm here for my ideas and what I think about things.

• 42:41Kara Swisher?

  And I think, no matter what job you're in, I think women relate to that. I'm sure some men relate to it, but I think it really hits women. And I love all that stuff. And I think it's very true. The hair particularly. The hair, oh, my god. Yeah. Does that, you don't wear your hair like that, do you? What, like? Messy and like in need of a brush? Yeah. Even I'm like, and I am the sloppiest. You like brush her hair. Brush your hair. I love her hair. I think it's great. Yeah. I think it's great. Yeah, it's always a hot mess. Yeah. And speaking of which, I want to play this clip. I think your most significant relationship is with Grace Penn in a lot of ways. Yes. Recently. Yeah. Because the two of you spark so well. And this is from season two. Grace Penn is still vice president. She's given Kate some advice.

• 43:25Speaker 05

  No one will read your policy papers. Best case, a soundbite will go viral once a year. Meanwhile, your face will appear in the media an average of 12,000 times a day. Every classroom in America, every embassy in the world will hang your picture on the wall. It's soft power. So you've got a couple of choices. Wear a suit like the military wears a uniform. Disappear. Hide the individual behind the duty to serve. Or get a gimmick. Blonde bob, red lipstick, pins like Albright, collars like RBG, glasses, a shorthand so people see what you stand for. And little girls dress like you for Halloween.

• 44:04Kara Swisher?

  I think I'm opting for the suit that makes you disappear.

• 44:09Speaker 05

  Are you?

• 44:10Kara Swisher?

  Black suit.

• 44:12Kara Swisher?

  Every now and then a navy suit.

• 44:14Speaker 05

  What do you think it broadcasts?

• 44:16Kara Swisher?

  As little as possible.

• 44:18Speaker 05

  Looking to the north. You probably think your hair says you're too busy serving your country to get a blowout. But it reads as bedhead, which sends a signal, I think in this case is better, unsent. East and west. Try a bra with a little padding. I know there's not much to hide, but when your jacket opens, I'm getting headlights, which takes us to the south. Is that a paperclip?

• 44:40Kara Swisher?

  Oh, yes, I had a zipper issue.

• 44:44Speaker 05

  When you're a second-tier diplomat in a third world war zone, that may read as scrappy. If you're representing the interests of 300 million Americans whose health care is failing, whose planet is burning, whose future might get a little bit better or a little bit worse based on what you do in the course of a day, it's best to look like the care of your trousers wasn't more than you could manage.

• 45:04Kara Swisher?

  She's the best. That is the finest scene in the land. Right? I mean, and she has a point. She, I'm getting headlights. Is that, is that a paperclip? Is that a paperclip? But she's remarkable here. Oh, she's remarkable. And she's kind of a mentor to you. Yeah. It changes over time, but there's a competitive angle. Talk about playing with her, because, especially in the more contentious scenes, which escalate. Talk about their dynamic, because to me, that's the significant relationship in this show. I mean, I get the husband part, but really, the significant relationship is with her. And she, you know, whatever you may feel for her big moves or, the truth is, she's doing it. Treason, really.

• 45:49Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, I mean, and it just continues. In the third season. She is able to look presentable. And she has been in that world, this very male world, and she's successful in doing it really well. I one time had a meeting with Nora Ephron. I was much younger. Oh, my god, she was amazing. She was a friend of mine.

• 46:08Kara Swisher?

  And I sat with her. I just had a baby. And I was kind of like bragging, oh, well, I don't really have a nanny because I just do this and blah, blah, blah. And she just looked at me and took like a long pause and like really drunk me in, you know? And she said, you need to take yourself more seriously.

• 46:29Kara Swisher?

  I love her. Died. I fucking died. And she was right. But that's exactly what that character is like. Yeah. Yeah, you think it's like cute? I get it. Take it seriously. Yeah. She was a very good mother, by the way. Yeah. Yeah. I just saw her son recently. When you think about that relationship, talk about the relationship between Grace Penn and Kate, and then you and Allison. How do you work that? Because she's really dislikeable in this show. She's really dislikeable. Which is something you can't do with her. No, and she, in life, Jani, is so likable. She's so kind of. Well, in most of her roles.

• 47:07Kara Swisher?

  She's so, in her own person, is so delicate and lovely and cautious and kind and funny. And we have a really silly, naughty relationship with each other. But I think actors like that, who get to play, for instance, Jani playing Grace Penn, you get to exercise this thing that you don't normally do in your real life. So. Even her other, CJ was such a good. Right. Perfect woman. Perfect woman. Not unsimilar in looks or intelligence. But now she gets to be, I mean, I don't know what scene it is or what episode, but

• 47:50Kara Swisher?

  towards the end of this season, there's a point where she looks at him and she goes, watch yourself. And you're like, oh, my god. And I think she just relishes being mean, because she doesn't do that in her real life. Right, yeah, it's a real shift for her. You know, in a major twist in season three, Grace chooses Hal as her vice president when your character thinks they're getting the role and were groomed for the role. When you thought about that twist, it was a great twist. It was so good. But about women in power, after all that preparation, it goes to the husband. Yeah. Well, okay, a million things. Number one, for an actor, for a character, it's the best, because you always want to be losing.

• 48:32Kara Swisher?

  Losing is way more interesting than someone who's winning all the time. Winning is boring to watch. But to lose, that was so humiliating. Even to just do the scene is so humiliating. You've built yourself up. You've given yourself this little tiny idea that, actually, maybe I do want to do it. Maybe I do want this job. Yeah, she did. And then to have it like swept away from you in such a humiliating way was delicious. But in reality, are they really going to have a country who can't elect even one woman? You're gonna have two women? No, no way. So you're gonna get, choose the handsome guy who's a better counterpart for her.

• 49:16Kara Swisher?

  So it does make sense, but it's still awful. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, no, it is. You could see, because she wanted it. She actually did and would acknowledge it. Now, season four premieres today. Bring us up to speed. Who is she in season four and what's she dealing with? Season four, so season three ended with Kate and Hal. Stealing, stealing the nuke. Stealing the nuke. And. And not letting Kate in on it. Yeah. And so Kate has to, I guess, figure out if she's gonna stay in the marriage after all this massive deception and figure out what that was about. And then very quickly, bigger problems arise. Right, right, absolutely.

• 50:00Kara Swisher?

  But she's here where she thinks she's in the inside and she's not on the inside at all. Not on the inside at all, yeah. And he's having a significant relationship with. With Grace Penn. Yeah. Yeah, so when you were approaching this season, what was your, what's the state of mind? I mean, it starts a mess. And then in this incredible way that I think is true to life, a bigger out, external problem enters, and then it sort of unites you again. You know, because sometimes the outside world, you unify again against the outside world. And I think that is what happens pretty immediately. Because you've been knocked off your, and you're the smartest girl in the room. Yeah. And you need to reestablish that.

• 50:42Kara Swisher?

  And they need to like not, but not speak and told constantly to not speak. Because you do believe in hierarchy in a weird way. Your character does. Absolutely. I believe in the order. Right, yeah. Of, you know, the process, absolutely. Right. Yeah. But, but yeah, she thinks she's the smartest one in the room. And she has to do something with it. How would you characterize this season over, if you had one word, without giving it away? Oh, gosh. I mean, well, you said it. It's sort of a wish. Like, to me, it's, it's a wish of what I would have hoped would have happened for us, but we didn't get any of this. We didn't get any of it, no. Do you know what I mean? By the end of this season, we didn't get. Grizzlings and collaborators. Right? It's wild.

• 51:27Kara Swisher?

  Talking with people all the time. I mean. And without any care to allies. Because allyship is a lot. That is, I mean, and I learned so much on this show about that early on. And to think all of that, you know, there's so many steps of diplomacy and you, everything with Great Britain, with Canada, with, I mean, it's the fracturing of the absolute destruction. So I'm gonna finish up. We have only a few more minutes. In your real life, you're the mom of three, as you said. And your partner, Matthew Reese, is a working actor. I hear he's won some memorates.

• 52:05Kara Swisher?

  I don't really care. No, he's currently starring in the hit series Widows Bay. And you, you live in New York and you said you live a quiet little life. How do you keep your life normal and quiet, especially with kids, teenagers, right?

• 52:17Kara Swisher?

  Yeah. Well, we have nineteen, fourteen, and ten.

• 52:22Kara Swisher?

  So college student.

• 52:23Kara Swisher?

  Yeah. We have a pretty average life. I think it helps that I don't work all the time. We try to take turns. So someone's home doing the normal stuff and someone's away, hopefully doing something they like. And I think it helps that we, we don't have a ton of actor friends or, you know what I mean? Our friends are just regular people.

• 52:47Kara Swisher?

  The normals.

• 52:47Kara Swisher?

  The normals. You know what I mean? And I think that makes our life, life nice.

• 52:52Kara Swisher?

  Would you want to do another show with him?

• 52:55Kara Swisher?

  I would totally work with him again. He's so good. I mean, I have to say, I always say that I never really wanted to be an actor because I didn't grow up, you know, I didn't go to RADA or something, you know what I mean? Like, I'm not some amazing trained actor. But working with him, he was one of the first people I really worked with that I was like, whoa, what is he doing? He's doing all this extra stuff. You know? And it was really.

• 53:19Kara Swisher?

  It taught you something.

• 53:19Kara Swisher?

  Really, absolutely. And inspired me. I was like, oh, shit, I see what he's, that's more complex. That's. I was also really, he, I get embarrassed all the time. And he didn't have any of that. When he's working, he's totally like free. He's, he would be naked all the time, you know? And he's not like some, I mean, I'm with him. I love him. I think he's great. But he's not like some worked out, like, he would just be naked, no big deal. He has, he's really comfortable.

• 53:49Kara Swisher?

  Right.

• 53:50Kara Swisher?

  And that was really appealing. Yeah.

• 53:53Kara Swisher?

  And what would you want to do? What would you, if you could pick something?

• 53:56Kara Swisher?

  Um, I don't know.

• 54:00Kara Swisher?

  You could wander into this series.

• 54:01Kara Swisher?

  Yeah. Maybe.

• 54:04Kara Swisher?

  Oh, wait.

• 54:05Kara Swisher?

  Maybe.

• 54:06Kara Swisher?

  You never know. I have two more questions.

• 54:08Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 54:08Kara Swisher?

  If you weren't an actor, what would you be? You always, you keep saying you're not an actor, you're trained, which is.

• 54:14Kara Swisher?

  Well, I wanted to be like.

• 54:15Kara Swisher?

  You're a very good actor, FYI. Trained or not, it seems like you're good at it.

• 54:19Kara Swisher?

  I wanted to be, I mean, and I still, like, I wanted to be like, you know, like Amelia Earhart or Margaret Mead. I just wanted to like travel and adventure. And in a way, I, I do get to do that. My job, like, I travel all over the world. I create these little lives for six months at a time and, and have these little adventures. Probably something like that or just sit and read all the time. I, I would like time to just read.

• 54:47Kara Swisher?

  I know that feeling. I know that feeling. And my last question, when you think about right now Hollywood, what's happening? You've had a very successful career. It moves very clearly forward. Allison Janney's the same way, very much so. How do you look at Hollywood right now? There's all these changes happening. There's all these mergers, acquisitions. How does it affect a working actor like you?

• 55:08Kara Swisher?

  Well, it doesn't affect me right in this moment, but I, something Matthew and I talk about a lot. I just think there's time, we feel time. I think this is limited. I think with AI and where everything is moving, I don't know, this, this is probably limited. I was so lucky that I got to be a part of this, what do they call it? Like prestige TV?

• 55:35Kara Swisher?

  Yeah.

• 55:35Kara Swisher?

  You know? It was such a fun, a way to like extend storytelling where it wasn't just a two-hour movie. There was something really amazing about these eight, 10-episode series where you could really parse out and stretch out the story and, like a good book, more like that, more detailed. And I just feel so lucky I got to be a part of that.

• 56:03Kara Swisher?

  And if you were a young actor today, it's harder, right?

• 56:06Kara Swisher?

  I think so. And I, and who knows what's going to happen? You know, I, I just don't know what's in store. I think what will survive, I think, are live performances, theater maybe.

• 56:17Kara Swisher?

  Which you've done, yeah.

• 56:18Kara Swisher?

  I think that will still do well, but who knows how this is all going to shake out.

• 56:23Kara Swisher?

  So you don't want Carrie AI?

• 56:25Kara Swisher?

  I don't know. Should I want Carrie AI? Kara, I don't want to be, live on forever. I want to like sneak away and go read my books in the woods.

• 56:35Kara Swisher?

  I just saw something say, I want to.

• 56:37Kara Swisher?

  But you did that, you sent me that thing.

• 56:38Kara Swisher?

  I know, I want to disappear. And then that you're, you turn into a rumor. That's what I want to do, turn into a rumor, slowly disappear. Anyway, Carrie, thank you so much. I really appreciate it. And one of my favorite things that you do on this show, either a character or you, but the way you flounce out of rooms is my very favorite. Because I flounce out of rooms.

• 56:58Kara Swisher?

  You're a flounder.

• 56:59Kara Swisher?

  I'm a flounder. And I have, and loud flounder.

• 57:02Kara Swisher?

  Love it.

• 57:02Kara Swisher?

  And I like that this character just does that. No matter the cost.

• 57:06Kara Swisher?

  No matter the cost.

• 57:07Kara Swisher?

  No matter the cost. I think that must be you too, in some way. Anyway, thank you so much.

• 57:12Kara Swisher?

  Thank you so much. Thanks a lot.

• 57:20Kara Swisher?

  Today's show was produced by Vicky Vergalina, Michelle Aloy, Catherine Millsap, Megan Burney, and Madeline LaPlante-Duby. Nishat Kurwaz is Vox Media's executive producer of podcasts. Special thanks to Bradley Sylvester, Jim Mackel, and Manola Moreno. Our engineers are Fernando Aruda and Rick Kwan, and our theme music is by Trackademics. If you're already following the show, you're a hyper competent hot mess with the chops to broker an international treaty. If not, you're just a sweaty lady in a yogurt-stained pantsuit. Go wherever you listen to podcasts, search for On with Kara Swisher, and hit follow. Thanks for listening to On with Kara Swisher from Podium Media, New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network, and us. We'll be back on Monday with more.

• 58:09Kara Swisher?

  Support for this show comes from NetSuite. AI isn't just opening new business opportunities, it's changing the way businesses get work done, and questions they ask, and decisions they make, and the routine tasks they can hand off. That's the idea behind NetSuite Next, the next generation of the business management suite trusted by over 44,000 companies. With AI woven into every tool you already rely on, it surfaces insights when you need them. Plus, agents work on your routine tasks and problems, and it lets you ask complex questions about your business in natural language, just like talking to a colleague. But technology is only part of the story. AI is also changing how people and teams work together. That's why I want to tell you about a new expert-created business guide that you should download today.

• 58:52Kara Swisher?

  It's called Aligning for the Agentic Era: How AI is Changing Everyday Work. And right now, it's absolutely free. In this guide, you'll see how AI can reshape work across your organization and how you can prosper from it. If your revenues are at least in the seven figures, go to netsuite.com/on. Get your free guide at netsuite.com/on. That's netsuite.com/on. Netsuite.com/on.

• 59:23Speaker 02

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