Hans Zimmer

We're breaking new ground on the podcast by at long last welcoming a film composer! And if you're going to welcome one, it might as well be Hans Zimmer. His work is nothing short of iconic, from GLADIATOR and THE LION KING to THE DARK KNIGHT trilogy and DUNE. Josh and Hans cover it all, including Zimmer's recent turn towards epic live performances. UPCOMING EVENT! Nathan Lane -- March 20th in New York -- Tickets here SUPPORT OUR SPONSORS! Quince -- Go to Quince.com/happysadco for 365 day returns and free shipping! Check out the ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Happy Sad Confused patreon here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠! We've got discount codes to live events, merch, early access, exclusive episodes, video versions of the podcast, and more! To watch episodes of Happy Sad Confused, subscribe to ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Josh's youtube channel here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

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• 0:29Josh Horowitz?

  I'm kind of surprised the official MCU has never come calling, or if they have, you've said no.

• 0:35Speaker 02

  They have, they have, they have. Look, I've done, I've done the trifecta. I've done Batman, Superman, Spider-Man.

• 0:42Josh Horowitz?

  That's true.

• 0:42Speaker 02

  And Wonder Woman, right?

• 0:44Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 0:45Speaker 02

  Right, okay. So.

• 0:47Josh Horowitz?

  Where do you go from there? It's hard to, yeah.

• 0:49Speaker 02

  I mean, what do you want me to do? Do some of the minor characters? Probably, yes.

• 0:54Josh Horowitz?

  This is Hans Zimmer, folks, come on.

• 0:56Speaker 03

  Prepare your ears, humans. Happy, sad, confused, begins now.

• 1:03Josh Horowitz?

  Hey, guys, it's Josh with another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. And this one, we're breaking new ground after 11 years. Don't tell me I can't learn new tricks. We have a composer on the show today. It's Hans Zimmer, an icon, a legend. If we were going to have a composer, of course, it would have to be some, someone like Hans Zimmer. He has a new film. It's called Hans Zimmer and Friends: Diamond in the Desert. It is out in theaters March 19th, only for a few days. It is a full-on immersive concert experience. If you love his work, as I do, check it out. It is well worth your hard-earned dollar. All right, before we get to Hans and my conversation, a couple bits and bobs, just to remind you guys, we have a live event coming up, March 20th.

• 1:47Josh Horowitz?

  It is Nathan Lane and moi at Symphony Space in New York City. If you've never seen me do one of these live events, they are always a blast. And Nathan Lane has never done the podcast, and there is certainly a lot to talk about. So get your tickets now. The link information is in the show notes. If you love Happy Sad Confused, if you want to support us, go over to our Patreon, patreon.com/happysadconfused. You can get your merch, you can get your discount codes, you can get your early access, you can get bonus content, autographed posters, it's all there for you. Check out our Patreon. Supporting us over there lets you make more of this for you guys. Okay, main event, as I said, Hans Zimmer, and kind of an intimidating guy to talk to, not because he's super engaging and easy, he's super engaging, easy to talk

• 2:32Josh Horowitz?

  to, it's just that he's done so much. So like, where do you even begin? But we did cover a lot in this, including his collaborations with Denis Villeneuve, the Dune films, Christopher Nolan, of course, the Batman films, Inception, Interstellar, Ridley Scott Gladiator, Zack Snyder, Man of Steel. So we actually, now that I'm thinking about it, we covered quite a bit in our, in our time together. That being said, he's one of those that you could probably have 10 conversations with and it'd always be new, unique and interesting. A very charming man, and made it easy for someone like me, who's never, you know, how do you have a deep conversation about what it means to score a movie? I don't have, I don't have that knowledge, but he made it easy with great stories and putting it into

• 3:17Josh Horowitz?

  terms that even, even I could understand. So I hope you guys enjoy this. If you're a cinephile like me, if you grew up with Hans Zimmer, like I did, I think you're gonna get a kick out of this. Check out the movie. It's in theaters, as I said, March 19th, Hans Zimmer and Friends, Diamond in the Desert. And in the meantime, enjoy this conversation, the one and only Hans Zimmer. Here he is. He's already told me to call him Hans, but I can't say it. It's Mr. Hans Zimmer. He is responsible for so much joy in my life as a cinephile. Welcome to the podcast. This is, I will say, sir, I'm saying, sir, I'm sorry, in advance. In over 11 years of doing this podcast, every notable filmmaker and actor, I've never done a composer. I'm a little scared because I don't feel like

• 4:01Josh Horowitz?

  I know how to speak about music adequately, but I had to make an exception for you.

• 4:06Speaker 02

  I don't either. You know, two weeks of piano lessons and I've been making it up ever since. So

• 4:12Josh Horowitz?

  You're doing a pretty good job of it.

• 4:14Speaker 02

  Except, I probably, I am probably way ahead of you on MTV, so you know.

• 4:21Speaker 02

  You know, I was in the first video that you guys ever screened.

• 4:25Josh Horowitz?

  That's right, you were. You predate me. I've done nearly two decades at MTV, so you go back to the beginning.

• 4:30Speaker 02

  Starting out, you know, you child you.

• 4:35Josh Horowitz?

  Um, the problem with chatting with you is you've done so damn much in your career, so we're only gonna scratch a tip of the iceberg, but the wonderful excuse that's bringing us here together today is your new film, Hans Zimmer and Friends, Diamond in the Desert. I was telling you before, I've never had the pleasure, many haven't had the pleasure and the opportunity to get to see you do your thing in an arena in a giant format, but this gave me a sense of what I've been missing.

• 5:02Speaker 02

  Yes, well, it really felt important to us. I mean, there are places we can't play. There are places that don't have the space where we can play. There are places that are just too out of the way. There are tickets which are too expensive. There's all sorts of things that stop people from seeing what we like to do. And so it seemed like a really good idea.

• 5:27Speaker 02

  You know, we were, you know, we were shooting dunes sort of over the shoulder on the left side of the screen, if you know what I mean. So we were in the Middle East and it felt like a perfect opportunity to go and grab Paul Dogdale, who's an amazing video director. And, and, and, you know, just get up to some mischief and actually film one of the shows and then, you know, show it to some of my friends and actually talk to them about it, which, which sort of makes it slightly different.

• 5:59Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, and when some of your friends are, you know, Timmy Chalamet, Chris Nolan, Denis Villeneuve, Zendaya, Pharrell, that adds something to the mix too.

• 6:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. Look, it was really Pharrell and Johnny Marr who got me to do any of this. I mean, I was happy just being a film composer and being in this room and just never, ever, ever leaving and, you know, having stage fright and everything. And it was the two of them that sort of sat me down and actually sat a little too close to me, so I couldn't get up, you know, on that couch behind me actually, and, and went, you know, Hans, there comes a time where you can't hide behind a screen anymore, where you have to go out and look people in the eye and do things in real time. And I said, I said, I can't do that. I can't do that. I got stage fright. I can't do that.

• 6:49Speaker 02

  And they sort of carried on like for about an hour at me with different versions of, you know, you've got to get out there. And then stuff gave up and Johnny left the room first and Pharrell was sort of hanging on the door. And he said, I'm doing the Grammys this year. Do you want to come and play guitar for me? And I thought only an idiot would say no, you know? And so that's how that thing started because the, oh, play guitar at the Grammys actually was really joyous, you know? It was a lot of fun. I thought, maybe I can do that. And when I, when I, when we started the band and started doing all this stuff,

• 7:30Speaker 02

  Pharrell and Johnny came along and did it the first few shows with us. They did, you know, they did a show in London with us and they did, they did Coachella, which was, you know, not bad for somebody who, who, who was just leaving his room, you know?

• 7:45Josh Horowitz?

  It's quite a start, start to a, oh, yeah, a concert career. And now, and I mean, this is, this is a whole, I mean, it's, it's, this is a crazy kind of new adventure in recent years for your life. And obviously, I mean, what's the point of connection you feel on stage now with an audience? Because it's one thing to hear from folks like me to say, I've been listening to you for decades and yes, it means a lot. But to see in someone's eyes and to feel that connection on stage must be a whole different, a whole different thing.

• 8:11Speaker 02

  You know, since I have absolutely no stagecraft, as you have found out.

• 8:18Speaker 02

  But what I do have is I have a great desire to communicate with people. And I like, so I say to the audience, you know, look, let's just treat this like a dinner party and we're just having a chat and we're going to play some music and we're going to go and see how it goes down. And then, you know, we'll take it from there and we're, we're going to be playing music that, I mean, like, like there were, that we're breaking all the rules, right? I mean, Um. First of all, I think it's important to say that our orchestra is from Ukraine. So you know, they're um and and we're looking after them very, very, very well. I mean, we've worked with them before the war started properly, and then we got them over

• 9:01Speaker 02

  two weeks after the war started, and it was very, very, very difficult to actually get them out, and now they can't go back, you know, so we have that. Um, I have an amazing band. I I

• 9:15Speaker 02

  love the idea that um we are so international. Um, and you know, and and and the the things we were told right from the start was, you know, um, don't play anything too long. The audience has no attention span. So, you know, Dark Knight is like twenty minutes, Pirates is fourteen minutes. I mean, you know, that's the sort of average. I I don't even know how long Interstellar is. I never measured it, you know.

• 9:42Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 9:43Speaker 02

  But it's it's and people and people hang in there with you, you know, because because it's not song form. It's not, you know, verse chorus, verse chorus, guitar solo, goodbye, you know.

• 9:58Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 9:58Speaker 02

  Um, the the the it it goes through changes. And the other thing which was really important to me was we don't show a single image from any of the films.

• 10:07Josh Horowitz?

  Well, that's what I was gonna say is like that what a what a testament to the work itself that, look, obviously, these these pieces are designed for the cinema, to pair with cinema, and it's all a marriage together. But that they can stand on their own must be such like, I mean, that's not the, is it part of the goal now? I don't even know. Like, or is it just a bonus? Like?

• 10:28Speaker 02

  But no, no, it was always the goal that the piece of music

• 10:33Speaker 02

  could be, you know, it was, yes, you're obviously right. It was written for a scene in a film. But at the same time, it was written to Open the doors for for an audience to have an experience, you know, an emotional experience. And I and I was never going to go as far as, you know, manipulate and say, this is the experience you're gonna have. So now it's like, you know, the the the the music is still there. The the experience that you can find is, you know, to to find your own thing, make it make up your own story. If you remember the film, great, you know, if you don't remember the film, doesn't matter.

• 11:14Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 11:15Speaker 02

  You know, the other thing which I thought was interesting was, um, I I was thinking, how can I, how can I pull this off? You know, I wanted to have an orchestra and I wanted to have a band. And I was thinking about orchestral music is usually you you're spending an evening watching a guy guy's back, you know, and he's doing this and uh and then there's a bunch of people dressed in penguin suits, reading the newspaper. Like a bad marriage on a Sunday morning, right? So I got rid of the newspapers, I got rid of the the the penguin suits and I the and I really got rid of the conductor. Because, you know, with modern technology, I mean, you it's it's it's it's easy, it's easy.

• 11:59Speaker 02

  Or you could use screens above, you don't have to have, you don't, you don't have to look. So so the focus is for everybody to have um to have an eyesight to the audience and to to actually be able to make a connection with members of the audience. Because you can, you know, you there's no piece of pieces of paper on the view.

• 12:20Josh Horowitz?

  The the, look, your body of work is so extensive, was is it hard to figure out what the setlist was i- i- in this film? You have, you know, you have Dune, you have Inception, you have Wonder Woman, you have Man of Steel, you have Dark Phoenix, which some people might be surprised by, was it kind of like hard to kind of figure out what to leave out and what to include?

• 12:39Speaker 02

  Um, yeah, I mean, it's like, like putting Lion King in was sort of, hang on a second. I wrote this for children, but wait a second. These children are now our audience, you know, I mean, they've grown up. So um, it's it's worth it's worth putting back in, you know. It was actually Niall Ma, Johnny Ma's son, who said, you know, Hans, get over yourself. Put it in, you know.

• 13:08Josh Horowitz?

  Right, this is for them, more for you, yeah.

• 13:10Speaker 02

  Yeah. Um, and so, so, so most of it is, is are things that we actually genuinely enjoy playing.

• 13:19Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 13:19Speaker 02

  You know, you know, um, yeah, they're, they're, they're successes, but maybe they became success, successful pieces of music because we always enjoyed playing them, you know.

• 13:29Josh Horowitz?

  Sure.

• 13:31Speaker 02

  I mean, it's, it's a pretty radical show, you know, it's, it's, it's not quite what you'd, what you'd expect.

• 13:39Josh Horowitz?

  No, and I've been to some of those and some of your esteemed colleagues in the business, some of the great composers. I've been to some of those concerts where it's wonderful to sit back and let the memories flow. But this is, this is, this is more like going to like, you know, U2 at the Sphere than seeing John Williams at Tanglewood, with all due respect, and I love Mr. Williams.

• 13:57Speaker 02

  Well, I come, I come from a rock and roll background, you know, so, you know, it's like, uh, I like plugging the guitar in, you know, I, I like, I like that, you know, um.

• 14:10Speaker 02

  I, I celebrate my two weeks of piano lessons.

• 14:14Josh Horowitz?

  Making the most out of it.

• 14:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, making the most out of it. I think I have my money's worth.

• 14:19Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, I think so, we all have, um, I, we're, we're taping this right after the Oscars. I'm curious, you know, you've been nominated many times, you've won two Oscars. The first time you were nominated, I believe, was for Rain Man.

• 14:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, my first Hollywood movie.

• 14:32Josh Horowitz?

  And I always marvel at, you know, I've watched the Oscars since I was a kid. And I always love like when they play a little bit of the music as every time like, you know, a participant from that movie wins an award. And that, I think Rain Man won eight awards that night. You were nominated. Do you recall like hearing your music as Dustin Hoffman and so many ascended to the stage?

• 14:51Speaker 02

  Yes, yes. And, you know, I wrote Rain Man on a synthesizer with weird sounds. And there's an orchestra trying to play my music. So that was, actually, it's really interesting that you say this because I'm only just realizing as you're saying it, it was the beginning of orchestras having to adapt to like, there's this new, there's this new guy in town and he, he works with weird electronic instruments and et cetera. So we better, we better have some stuff in the orchestra as well that can go and do that, you know? So, um, yes, it was incredibly weird.

• 15:35Speaker 02

  You know, the, the following year I was, I wasn't up, but Driving Miss Daisy was best picture. So they kept playing that tune over and over again, you know? And then Gladiator was best picture and I was nominated. But again, it was like they played the tune over and over and over again. So, and by that point, they, you know, they, they got it.

• 16:00Josh Horowitz?

  They were ready for the Zimmer repertoire.

• 16:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, you know? And then, and then, and then winning for Dune Part One, I was sort of grumpy about the whole affair. We were touring, I was in Amsterdam. I said to my partner, I don't want to have anything to do with it. We got a show tomorrow. I want to go to bed, you know? She said, you sure you don't want to watch it? And I phoned my PR people and said, don't, don't bother me. I, I want to go to sleep. So.

• 16:34Speaker 02

  I I had my kids with me and they were downstairs doing whatever they're doing. And then then the phone rings and it's my publicist going, it's your cat. And I'm going, I told you, I don't want to be disturbed, you know, right? And then like two minutes later, the phone rings again and I'm going, I told you. And she goes, but you won, but you won, you know? And at that moment, the sort of door burst open and I realized that my partner had not actually locked the door. There was a was a devious plot between her and my children and they sort of flew in. And there was a big party going on downstairs with the whole band. And look, they didn't care if I won or lost, they just wanted a great big party.

• 17:18Josh Horowitz?

  And they were having that party regardless. It was just a bonus you want.

• 17:21Speaker 02

  Absolutely. So, you know, that was good. But actually, that was the best Oscars I ever had.

• 17:28Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, just with friends and family, yeah, just enjoying, yeah.

• 17:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly. It was really cool. They're in a really cool place in Amsterdam.

• 17:41Josh Horowitz?

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• 18:26Josh Horowitz?

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• 18:38Josh Horowitz?

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• 19:23Josh Horowitz?

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• 19:26Josh Horowitz?

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• 20:51Josh Horowitz?

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• 21:09Josh Horowitz?

  All right, so the benefit of the selections you have for this concert film is you let me go into some of these selections and talk about sort of the history. Let's talk a little bit about your amazing collaborations with Ridley Scott. Gladiator, obviously, I mean, one of the joys of working with Ridley is he mixes it up every single time. He can do a Gladiator film or a drama, a...

• 21:30Speaker 02

  Well, I can do a quick rundown for you. Gladiator sounds nothing like Black Hawk Down. Nothing like Thelma and Louise. Sounds nothing like Black Rain. Sounds nothing like Mad Stick Men. I'm forgetting a few.

• 21:51Speaker 02

  I mean...

• 21:51Josh Horowitz?

  No, it's true.

• 21:53Speaker 02

  And so when you...

• 21:58Speaker 02

  The thing that I love is I love working with inquisitive people. You know, I mean, I just, somebody just asked me to describe myself. And all I could come up with was restlessly inquisitive. You know, it's like, I don't sleep much and the people that I work with don't get to sleep much either. I'm going, oh, there's another idea and we can probably do it like this and, you know, why don't we, you know? I mean, I once did the Oscars, you know, we were the musical directors at the Oscars.

• 22:34Speaker 02

  Afterwards, there was a, what do you call that? An intervention by both of our teams who said they would leave us if we ever had an idea like that again.

• 22:48Josh Horowitz?

  Just too much, too many ideas flowing at them?

• 22:52Josh Horowitz?

  So when you work with someone like Ridley, like on something like Gladiator, does he give you any guidance or does he say, this is the script, this is the idea I have, I want to see what you come up with? What's the working relationship there?

• 23:03Speaker 02

  He didn't really have a script, but you know, the room you see behind me was the Gladiator cutting room. So we were in the same building and we're just working together very closely.

• 23:17Speaker 02

  And Ridley is a man of few words. I mean, I remember playing him like my ideas for Hannibal. Oh, there's another movie.

• 23:24Josh Horowitz?

  There you go, yeah.

• 23:26Speaker 02

  And he's just sitting there completely stoically without expression, listening to it. And then I I remember there there came this sort of horror shock bit, you know, and I I'm thinking, should I turn it down? Should I turn? I'm I'm playing at a fair volume, you know, and this thing, you know, this thing occurs, you know, this terrifying thing occurs. And I and I and Ridley very slowly turns his head towards me and just raises one eyebrow, you know, and then back to listening. And and at the end I go, well, what do you think? Let's go. Yeah, go. You know, good.

• 24:05Speaker 02

  Gladiator, I took so long to write it, because I I sort of, I knew what it was going to, what it was supposed to be like. And those pesky notes, you know, I just, I kept finding always the nearly good notes, you know, and I knew it could be better. And so everybody was, I mean, you know, look, Steven Spielberg was our producer. So that's a different sort of a producer. So when he says, maybe you should actually go and write the film now as opposed to trying to battle with this theme. But Ridley kept, he really protected me. He really protected me and and and realized I was hunting something down.

• 24:50Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 24:50Speaker 02

  So.

• 24:53Speaker 02

  You you you need a, you need a director who is your best friend, you know, is your, is, you know, is your comrade in arms.

• 25:04Josh Horowitz?

  Is it surreal or strange when like, obviously you followed through on some film series, but then something like Gladiator, they do the sequel and another composer uses some of your work, obviously, in honoring those themes. Like, is that odd to go back and see a sequel using some of your own work?

• 25:18Speaker 02

  Well, it's Harry Gregson-Williams, who, you know, is one of my oldest friends. We started together in London, and I actually brought Harry over to Los Angeles. And when Ridley was shooting Kingdom of Heaven, I just went, I can't do that. I mean, it's too similar to Gladiator. I can't do it. But Ridley, I know a guy who can. So Harry did what I was supposed to do on Kingdom of Heaven. And then Harry phoned me up and he said, how do you feel about me during Gladiator 2? And I, to be really honest, I felt I was just setting myself up for bad criticism. You know, even if I had written

• 26:02Speaker 02

  the best score in the world for Gladiator 2, there would have been enough people who would have said, it's not as good as the old one, you know? Because, not because it was, because how can you judge music? I mean, music isn't good, you know? It doesn't work like this, but it works how people remember things.

• 26:22Josh Horowitz?

  Totally. I love the moment in the documentary. I want to segue into talking about the Dark Knight films because Timothy Chalamet talking about sort of like what, you know, your interpretation of the Joker, Joker's music meant to him and how it inspired him as an actor. And I mean, that's, and I've heard you talk about this a little bit, that's, again, you always, you're always taking risks. And Dark Knight, what you did with the Joker is such like a, you know, seemingly abrasive, discordant, upsetting set of sounds. Was Chris all in on that from the start? Was the studio all in on that? Did you have the confidence that that was going to work for the Joker's theme, for lack of a better term?

• 27:05Speaker 02

  I had so many ideas for the Joker.

• 27:10Speaker 02

  Um, all all in that vein, you know, all in that vein, um, that I Chris had to finish shooting the movie in Hong Kong. There's a Hong Kong scene.

• 27:19Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 27:20Speaker 02

  And so I I said, Chris, I I got all these ideas, so I'm gonna buy you an iPod. And you got that long flight ahead of you, and then you fly from there to London. So you have you have enough time, you know, ten thousand bars, you know, it's like, you know, um.

• 27:38Speaker 02

  And he lis- he he dutifully listened to it all. And I said, well, what do you think? What do you think? What do you think? Because it's in there somewhere, but you know something? It hasn't made me a better human being.

• 27:55Speaker 02

  Um, but you know, I mean, look, look. There there there are two ways of writing film music, you know, you you can stay outside the character and, you know, you can say, oh, it's tension, you know, you're you're just blanketing it, you know, with tension, he's going to come, you know, da da da, whatever, and mayhem is gonna come. And what I was trying to do is, I was just trying to, it's like, you know, this sort of this this this this bow being pulled inside this guy, you know, this this bow of anarchy. So so I wanted the tension to always come from within him.

• 28:33Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 28:34Speaker 02

  So so so so the music is always inside the character as opposed to describing them from the outside.

• 28:42Josh Horowitz?

  But does the

• 28:43Speaker 02

  Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't, of course.

• 28:45Josh Horowitz?

  I- in that case, was that inspiration from the script? Had you been seeing footage of what Heath was doing, or was it simply based on on what you were reading in the material?

• 28:54Speaker 02

  It came from a from a painting that, o- okay.

• 29:00Speaker 02

  A friend of mine had stuck a very bad Xerox copy of Francis Bacon's painting of the Pope on my computer. And I remember Chris coming into my room and seeing that and he said, oh, can I have that? And the next thing I see the Joker and there might be some inspiration there. So we all, you know, we were all sort of working from this. I very often work from painters or architects. It's not from music that I work.

• 29:43Speaker 02

  I look at, you know, what Gerhard Richter has just painted, you know, and there's far more inspiration in that for me than in other people's notes.

• 29:55Josh Horowitz?

  And similarly, that segues well into Man of Steel, which, I mean, talk about A Tall Order. I mean, it doesn't get any better than John Williams and what he did.

• 30:05Speaker 02

  Okay, look, look, I'll be very honest about that. For three months I was just freaking out and not writing a thing. And then Sack said that Chris Nolan had told him, nothing will happen unless he comes down with a firm deadline. And he felt me up and, you know, very cheerful, he said, I'm coming down on Tuesday. And I said, I got nothing. I mean, I got maybe something, you know, like a, like a Post-it, you know, that you put on the fridge, you know, I mean, of some scribbles. He goes, I love Post-its and scribbles. So he came down, I played him a little theme, you know, and he loved it, you know, and

• 30:48Speaker 02

  he said the wisest words to me. He said, Hans, you've done so many movies. It's just another movie. Stop freaking out. But it's Superman. Yes, I know, but it is just another movie, which is actually correct.

• 31:04Josh Horowitz?

  Do you have those same?

• 31:06Speaker 02

  I was respectful.

• 31:09Josh Horowitz?

  Absolutely. Absolutely. And I'm curious, like, do you have those same goosebump moments that we do as an audience? Like, in your career, when you're seeing it all married together? No, you're too close to it.

• 31:19Speaker 02

  Unfortunately, I know. It's so annoying. I know, I don't. I get them with other people's movies.

• 31:25Josh Horowitz?

  Right, right. We talked a little bit about Dune, and I know that was, as personal it is to Denis, that book meant a lot to you as well. Obviously, hell of an accomplishment on Dune Part Two. We can litigate that with the Academy later. I'm sure that's a sore point, but it is what it is.

• 31:42Speaker 02

  You know something? It's not really a sore point. It's just a stupid point. How can it be a sore point? I mean, it's like, it's... What was I going... I got disqualified because I was using material from the first movie in the second movie. But it's not a sequel. It is the completion. It's the arc. Both movies are one arc. So was I supposed to go and take all the character themes away and write new character themes or develop them? So it's just a stupid rule, you know? And I really didn't... What I didn't want to do is I didn't want to go and

• 32:27Speaker 02

  bitch about it, you know?

• 32:28Josh Horowitz?

  Right. Are you thinking... Are you talking to Denis? I mean, it seems like Dune Messiah is happening sooner than later.

• 32:34Speaker 02

  I talk to Denis every day, you know? Yes, it's happening sooner rather than later.

• 32:43Josh Horowitz?

  Has much work on your end been done yet? Like, do you already have in your mind what you're gonna play around with there?

• 32:50Speaker 02

  Maybe, maybe. Yeah, Denise on a plane as we speak back to Canada.

• 32:58Josh Horowitz?

  Curious that you know his whereabouts so well. You must be in it.

• 33:02Speaker 02

  So well, right.

• 33:05Josh Horowitz?

  Um, back to Mr. Nolan for a second. Um, inception, another amazing score. How much does it? I mean, your influence is obviously everywhere, but every time you hear that, for lack of a better way of putting it, the round in a, in a trailer.

• 33:21Speaker 02

  But well, that's the point. That's the point. You see, I didn't write the bram. I made the sound, but Chris had it in his script. It's a story point.

• 33:32Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 33:33Speaker 02

  It's, you know, because the movie deals with time and he wa- and for him, how do you show that time has slowed down? Well, you slow the music down, you know, and when you slow the music down, you get

• 33:47Speaker 02

  but, but all the trailers, the trailer houses or the trailer editors suddenly realize that, you know, if you use a nonsensical sound, you know, because trailers are very hard to cut because, because you're forever cutting from one bit that doesn't fit to the next bit.

• 34:10Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 34:10Speaker 02

  And if you hide that cut with some big other, you know, three nonsensical things somehow seem to be making what was

• 34:22Speaker 02

  an epic forward motion. So, but we were a story point. They were not a story point.

• 34:30Josh Horowitz?

  So there's my answer. I can tell you hear that in the trailer. Oh, little.

• 34:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. We really have to. Did you, could you not think of something else?

• 34:48Speaker 04

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• 35:17Speaker 05

  You've got your favorite blanket, a freshly poured drink, and a cold case burning a hole in your streaming queue. You're not just watching true crime, you're running the investigation from the comfort of your couch. Welcome to Murder She Watched, the podcast where we recap, dissect, and slightly overanalyze some of the best and craziest true crime documentaries on our favorite streamers. Did the spouse do it? Why is the shady neighbor wearing leather gloves in July? Why did this guy agree to be interviewed in this documentary? We ask the tough questions that you're often just screaming at your TV. So every week, we break down the twists, red herrings, and absurd documentaries that have kept you up all night.

• 36:02Speaker 05

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• 36:19Josh Horowitz?

  Those that know your work, know Chris Nolan's work, probably know the story behind Interstellar. We don't need to go into detail, but the short version is, it was a very unusual process in that he came to you with this, essentially, I believe, a one-page fable, asked you to write something. You didn't know what this was going to be, and then the rest is kind of history. My question, yeah. I was gonna say, my question related to that is, so you compose something, he does find it inspirational, he says, "Let's get to work, I'm gonna get to work." When you learned what it was in fact gonna be, how big a story this was going to be?

• 36:54Speaker 02

  Well, yeah, no, no, I mean, that was, I'll give you that bit. So, it was a letter, he sent me the letter, it was very heartfelt.

• 37:04Speaker 02

  Fable about what it what it meant to be a parent. And I was writing a very heartfelt piece about my son.

• 37:13Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 37:13Speaker 02

  Um, because.

• 37:16Speaker 02

  In Chris's letter. He was a boy because Chris knows my son very well. Um, it's only when I looked very carefully, and this is type, it was typewritten, right?

• 37:30Speaker 02

  He originally had written her and he had. Whited out the R. Because of course he had written it for his daughter.

• 37:42Speaker 02

  But but so so I finished it like ten o'clock at night and phone Chris's house. Uh, Emma, his wife answered and I said, well, I finished it. I'm good. Do you want me to send it over? And she said, actually, he's really rather antsy. Can he come over? And well, sure, absolutely, you know, we're rock and rollers, ten o'clock on a Sunday night. That's still early for us. So he came over and I played it to him and. And I said, well, you know, and it was very fragile. It was this fragile love story.

• 38:13Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 38:14Speaker 02

  For my child. And I said, well, what do you think? He goes, well, I better make the movie now. And I said, what is the movie? And he started talking about space and science and. Just uh, time travel and space travel and.

• 38:31Speaker 02

  Giant black holes, et cetera, et cetera.

• 38:36Speaker 02

  I said, wait, wait, wait, so so this little theme, how how is this little theme going to survive that? Um, and he said, no, I I now know where the heart of the story is. So. We went from there, you know, we went forward from there and then we got some proper rocket boosters in because if you. If you think what the. Big organ pipes look like, they look, they just look like, you know, rockets.

• 39:06Josh Horowitz?

  Can you not help again? Like, again, we talked about John Williams and the specter of that Superman theme, but you know, the only analogy I can think to. Interstellar is something like two thousand one and obviously what Kubrick did, the juxtaposition of classical music with with the images there. Is that something that's even in conversation that you and Chris are acknowledging and talking about?

• 39:26Speaker 02

  Um. We watched Two Thousand and One, you know, again. Marvel that it went, well, we don't know how to do that. You know. So, so, so I had to do that, but.

• 39:41Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 39:46Speaker 02

  It is probably my most classical piece, you know, I mean.

• 39:54Speaker 02

  It uses all the devices Bach was using, so, you know.

• 40:00Speaker 02

  Nothing wrong with that.

• 40:01Josh Horowitz?

  No, definitely. So, obviously, in, in recent years, um, you know, because of both.

• 40:07Speaker 02

  By the, by the way, I'm asking you something since you saw the film.

• 40:11Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 40:11Speaker 02

  Did you, did you like it in the film?

• 40:14Josh Horowitz?

  Yes, I did. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's transcendent. It feels, yeah, it feels like you're in a church. It's like you're.

• 40:21Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 40:21Speaker 02

  It's, it's pretty.

• 40:24Josh Horowitz?

  It's epic.

• 40:24Speaker 02

  It's a little epic.

• 40:26Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 40:28Josh Horowitz?

  Um, your relationship, obviously, you and Chris, there's no love lost, considering you had to kind of bow out and let Ludwig kind of have some fun the last couple of films.

• 40:36Speaker 02

  But I think that, I think that's pretty good, you know, it's like. Occasionally, you just need to refresh.

• 40:44Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 40:45Speaker 02

  Human palette, you know.

• 40:50Speaker 02

  No, I mean, if you see, I mean, Chris is in this film, you know, and, and.

• 40:57Speaker 02

  You know. We, we go, we've, we've done too much. We go back too far. We, we, you know, the, the friendship is strong. It has to.

• 41:08Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 41:08Speaker 02

  You know, but so is my friendship with Danny, you know, so. But one of the truly fabulous things, I don't know if it comes across in the film, is just.

• 41:21Speaker 02

  The, the.

• 41:24Speaker 02

  Playing music, you know, the playfulness of it, you know, is wonderful. And the other part that's wonderful is you're surrounded by really interesting people. And they're your friends, you know, you get to spend your life with really interesting people who are really good at what they do.

• 41:43Josh Horowitz?

  That's, yeah, I mean, again, the company you keep, I mean, all these great artists, all these great filmmakers. You talk about Ridley, you talk about Chris. Part of the secret sauce is they're geniuses, but they surround themselves with geniuses too. And they make them look amazing. Um, you, you, uh, you obviously have done, we talked about the Batman films. You've done, you know, Amazing Spider-Man two, you came back to the superhero genre with Dark Phoenix. Are you yourself kind of superheroed out? I'm kind of surprised the official MCU has never come calling, or if they have, you've said no.

• 42:13Speaker 02

  They have, they have, they have, and it was always, um,

• 42:19Speaker 02

  timing wasn't great. Um, and, and, and really, quite honestly, I mean, I, I'm looking for other things right now. You know, I mean, look, I've done, I've done the trifecta. I've done Batman, Superman, Spider-Man.

• 42:35Josh Horowitz?

  That's true.

• 42:35Speaker 02

  And Wonder Woman, right?

• 42:37Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 42:37Speaker 02

  Right, okay, so.

• 42:39Josh Horowitz?

  Where do you go from there? It's hard to, yeah.

• 42:41Speaker 02

  I mean, what, what do you want me to do? Do the, some of the minor characters? Probably, yes.

• 42:46Josh Horowitz?

  This is Hans Zimmer, folks, come on.

• 42:49Speaker 02

  No, no, but you know, but you, you know, and, and for better, for worse. So, I mean, that was very arrogant of me to say that, but actually Kevin Feige said that to me. That's what you're complaining about.

• 43:03Josh Horowitz?

  What about Star Wars? I mean, obviously we've talked, we've talked about Mr. John Williams, but like if that opportunity came around to dabble in that sandbox, is that intriguing at all?

• 43:13Speaker 02

  Um, no.

• 43:17Josh Horowitz?

  No.

• 43:17Speaker 02

  No, no, I think, I think John, John masterful, master, I mean, just, just so masterful has done that. And, and, you know, I think, um, the Superman thing.

• 43:33Speaker 02

  I know it sounds really simple, what I did, because it had to be. Because there was no way I could. I mean, that's not true. I can I can go into that into that very orchestral territory. But that's not what what that's not why you hire me, right? Um, but I think the Star Wars thing, you know, I think Ludwig is doing some really interesting things. You know, but. And and how how many interesting things do you want to go and put onto this? You know, and on to this thing before it falls apart and isn't Star Wars anymore?

• 44:13Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 44:14Speaker 02

  Because the only way I I I would I would see myself doing it is if I could do if I could reinvent it.

• 44:21Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, it'd be radical, of course. That's what you do. Yeah, that makes sense.

• 44:24Speaker 02

  And part part of it is, lo- look. Dune, I never saw the the original movie. Because when I was a teenager, I loved the book. And I made a movie in my head. And I I was the first person, uh, Demi Hyatt.

• 44:46Speaker 02

  Which was sort of a coincidence, because we were standing there waiting for a cab. And he said, have you ever heard of a book called Dune? And I sort of went, you know, a little insane and with the other. Uh, because I knew it so well. So so that was a good thing. And I and and I tell I tell you, the the remarkable thing that happened was.

• 45:11Speaker 02

  It was good that we needed to wait this long, because he was the same way. He was a teenager when he wrote it. It was good that we had to wait this long before making it. Because. We had the craft, you know, we had to learn the craft of how to make a movie, you know?

• 45:28Josh Horowitz?

  Well, yeah, he's talked about Blade Runner twenty forty nine, kind of like he had to kind of go through that trial by fire. Ready for Dune.

• 45:35Speaker 02

  Yes, absolutely. And and and but.

• 45:40Speaker 02

  At the same time, our spirit, our, our, I don't know, you know, our head was sort of, we were teenagers again, you know, we had the enthusiasm and the, and the daringness of a teenager, you know, the, the recklessness of a teenager while, while making Dune and, um, but the experience and the knowledge of somebody who's done a couple of movies.

• 46:06Josh Horowitz?

  Right. Um, as we're, we're creating towards the end, but I want to ask a couple of random things. Um, what's the feeling you have when you've created what you know in your heart? You're actually very satisfied with a great score and you see the movie and you know the movie's not that great. I mean, that must have happened in the hundred plus movies that you've composed for where people probably aren't ever gonna like enjoy this or see much of this because unfortunately the movie isn't up to, we don't need to name names, but it happens.

• 46:34Speaker 02

  Yes, uh, I sometimes name names, um, but actually not at this moment.

• 46:45Speaker 02

  Just because it's a, it's a crap movie doesn't, uh, let you off the hook. You still have to write, write your best music, you know? And in a funny way, if the movie is,

• 46:59Speaker 02

  if they are at the stage where they have realized that the movie is unsalvageable,

• 47:07Speaker 02

  actually something really great happens because you as the composer can do whatever you want, right? Because whatever you do, it's just gonna make it a little bit more whatever, you know? So, so it's actually very liberating. And there's one other thing that people forget because inevitably it will turn into a failure. And a failure means no more than that nobody has seen it. So in a funny way, your slate is still quite clean, you know? Nobody, very few people will have seen your pratfalls.

• 47:47Josh Horowitz?

  Right. What's the, what's the greatest fear at this point? Is it, is it waking up one day and, and just not having any ideas? Like, do you still live in fear of like running out of inspiration?

• 47:58Speaker 02

  No, I mean, I'll tell you exactly what, what, what the greatest fears right now. There's so, there's so many ideas, so many projects, so many things going on.

• 48:12Speaker 02

  I have no idea how to get the, how to.

• 48:18Josh Horowitz?

  There's not, there's not enough time to actually.

• 48:21Speaker 02

  I need 28 hours in a day.

• 48:23Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 48:24Speaker 02

  Let's start there, you know?

• 48:28Speaker 02

  I mean, I start things, I start a letter, I get halfway through and then I realize, oh my God, I need to do this other thing. And then that letter sits there, you know, weeks, you know? And then I come back to it, but you know, by this point, it's not, it's irrelevant anymore. So you, the ideas are. You know, as, as Chris said, you know, what's, you know, what's the greatest idea? It's, it's, it's, you know, it's, it's a virus in your head, you know? It's like, it's in there and, and, and you're dying to, you know, get it out, you know?

• 49:05Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 49:05Speaker 02

  It's, it, it happens all the time. I mean, I'm, I'm designing the next show at the moment and it's so radical.

• 49:15Speaker 02

  You know, I'll see how, I'll see if I can pull it off, you know?

• 49:20Josh Horowitz?

  I'll definitely be there. Um, talk to me briefly, just is F1 the next time I'm going to hear a, a score of yours on the big screen?

• 49:26Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 49:26Josh Horowitz?

  Re teaming with Joe Kozinski?

• 49:28Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 49:30Speaker 02

  Nearly done. You know, again, too many ideas.

• 49:38Josh Horowitz?

  A, a long, a long way off from Days of Thunder. There's no symmetry there, I assume. This is.

• 49:42Speaker 02

  No, no symmetry there. I'm not, hang on, you know, I'm the guy that doesn't ride, right? And I've done Days of Thunder and Rush and now F1. And you know something? The, the, the, the teams love me.

• 50:02Speaker 02

  Like every time I would turn up at a race, you know, the Mercedes team would win, you know? And so, so much so that they said, you're going to come to the races because you are good luck.

• 50:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was a coincidence that drivers and their cars were very good.

• 50:20Josh Horowitz?

  All right, we're gonna end with this, the happy second fuse profoundly random questions for Hans Zimmer. Uh, dogs or cats, sir? Which are you?

• 50:27Speaker 02

  Oh, dogs. Dogs, I mean, I had a big brown Labrador. Uh, and I would come home, you know, at like two o'clock in the morning. Um, my usual time and, you know, nobody would be awake other than the lab who would be sitting in front of me because actually he wanted to have some of the food I was eating. But I would, you know, tell him about my day and I have a conversation and, you know, and, and he was a great listener.

• 50:53Josh Horowitz?

  The best. Do you collect anything? What do you collect?

• 50:57Speaker 02

  Well, that's a dangerous one to answer. I collect synthesizers.

• 51:04Josh Horowitz?

  I mean, it's acceptable, given your chosen profession. That's okay.

• 51:09Josh Horowitz?

  Um, ever, yeah.

• 51:10Speaker 02

  I think, I think I've. I think I've surpassed the threshold of acceptable.

• 51:19Josh Horowitz?

  So, well, you, you know it at least in your head. You've accepted it. That's the first step towards, you know, getting through it. Uh, what's the wallpaper on your phone?

• 51:28Speaker 02

  Um, my partner.

• 51:30Josh Horowitz?

  Very nice.

• 51:32Josh Horowitz?

  What's the, uh? Lovely. Very sweet. What's the, what's the word? I usually ask this of actors, but it's apropos, I think for you. What's the worst note a director has ever given you?

• 51:46Josh Horowitz?

  What's totally unhelpful? What's like, that's just not gonna help the cause.

• 51:50Speaker 02

  And I was doing commercials.

• 51:54Speaker 02

  Somebody said.

• 51:57Speaker 02

  It's not sounding green enough.

• 52:02Josh Horowitz?

  As in money? As in nature? What does that even mean?

• 52:04Speaker 02

  Avocado.

• 52:08Josh Horowitz?

  And in the spirit of happy sad confused, an actor who always makes you happy, you see them on screen, you're in a better mood immediately.

• 52:15Speaker 02

  Ooh, uh.

• 52:18Speaker 02

  She grunts in his grumpiness.

• 52:21Josh Horowitz?

  I love that. Same. A movie that makes you sad, always?

• 52:26Speaker 02

  Always makes me sad. Oh, this is weird. This is personal. Amadeus. Amadeus kills me because I grew up with his music, you know, and the stories about his life and etc. I mean, it's just, it's just, it's just astonishingly great movie, but just the end, you know, the, I mean, oh.

• 52:48Josh Horowitz?

  It's, it's, it's an all-timer. That's a top ten movie of all time.

• 52:51Speaker 02

  With that, yeah.

• 52:52Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, no, I'm with you. And a food that makes you confused, sir?

• 52:55Speaker 02

  A food that makes me confused?

• 52:57Josh Horowitz?

  You don't get it. Why do people eat that?

• 52:59Speaker 02

  Um.

• 53:07Speaker 02

  American cheese.

• 53:09Josh Horowitz?

  It's, why bother? I mean, there's so much grated cheese out there. What are we doing here?

• 53:14Speaker 02

  Right.

• 53:15Josh Horowitz?

  This is the correct answer. Well done, sir. I hope I haven't gushed too much, but like, I'll say this for the record.

• 53:23Speaker 02

  You've just, just enough.

• 53:25Josh Horowitz?

  Well, I'm gonna go over, overboard on the last minute. I'm just gonna say, before the advent of the DVD and re-watching movies, it was, it was listening to soundtracks like, like yours, like John Williams, like James Horner, like Ennio Morricone, that made me the cinephile that I am. It was my way to relive and, and fall in love over and over again with cinema. So I thank you from the bottom of my heart for that and the fact that you're still doing it and evolving and now doing it in this fantastic live, live events, which I will have to go to one of these days. Um, just thank you for everything and I hope everybody checks out. This is in theaters very soon. Hans Zimmer and Friends, Diamond in the Desert.

• 54:00Speaker 02

  Know and remember, we, we are little, you know, so we have a very limited engagement. You know, when they say limited engagement.

• 54:09Josh Horowitz?

  This is, this is for real.

• 54:10Speaker 02

  We're two days or three days, you know, I mean, so don't wait till the next weekend because the next weekend is gonna be Star Wars.

• 54:20Josh Horowitz?

  It's now or never. March 19th and a couple of days after that. Check your local listings.

• 54:25Speaker 02

  Right.

• 54:25Josh Horowitz?

  Um, no, thank you, sir. This has been a true honor. Thank you so much.

• 54:29Speaker 02

  Thank you. That was fun.

• 54:33Speaker 03

  And so ends another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. Remember to review, rate, and subscribe to this show on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm a big podcast person. I'm Daisy Ridley and I definitely wasn't prepared to do this by Josh.

• 54:52Speaker 06

  It's the feeling of escapism, the call of glory that drives us to build fantastic worlds, yet some grow darker than others.

• 54:59Speaker 07

  Dark Dice is the improvised horror podcast diving into the depths of madness and the corrupt divine in the fantasy realm of terror. Wayward souls who dare risk their characters at our table bring our stories to crawling life.

• 55:11Speaker 06

  Enhanced with award-winning soundscapes and music, Dark Dice mixes the role of the dice with the drive to survive. So join us and hear the horrors of Dark Dice wherever you listen to podcasts.