535: Keeping Things Humorous Can Keep You Humble. With Kingsley A. Pinderhughes III aka KingPix Media.

>Join Jocko Underground< https://www.jockounderground.com/subscribe Kingsley Pinderhughes III not only teaches how humility can keep you humble, but also how to PUNCH OUT AND GO TO WORK. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jocko Willink?

  This is the Jocko Podcast number 535 with Echo Charles and me, Jocko Willink. Good evening, Echo. Good evening. I, I heard this story and I can't, I'm not 100% sure where, sure where I heard it for the first time, but, but I, I, the link was to the British SAS and it was some version that it was mandatory for anyone in the SAS to have a good sense of humor. The reason being, because if people take themselves too seriously, then they begin to believe their own hype. And when you start to believe your own hype, you lose your humility.

• 0:42Jocko Willink?

  And when you lose your humility, you get complacent. And when you get complacent, people get killed. So that's a long connection to your sense of humor. If you want to maintain your humility, you have to maintain your sense of humor. And you may have heard me say many times over the years that humility is the most important characteristic of a leader. And I agree with that story, that humor is a good way to stay humble. And in the SEAL teams, it is a very real thing. Those digs from your platoon mate, they keep you humble and they're meant to keep you humble. The ribbing from your platoon

• 1:24Jocko Willink?

  chief, that keeps you humble. The jibe that you get from your shooting buddy, when you blow a shot, keeps you humble. And that is what the teams is like every day. It's verbal combat all day, every day. And if you have a little chink in your armor, by the way, it's going to be identified, it's going to be exploited and it's going to be funny. And if you take yourself too seriously, if you take yourself too seriously, you're going to suffer. You have to stay humble and there's no doubt that humor helps that happen. And joining us tonight is a guy who does. A stupendous job of keeping things humorous and thereby keeping us all humble.

• 2:10Jocko Willink?

  His name is Kingsley Penderhuse III. And he is from King Picks Media. He served as a soldier, he served in law enforcement. And he has bounced back and forth between those two a number of times for reasons that I'm sure we'll get into at some point. But it is an honor to have him here tonight. In black and white.

• 2:35Jocko Willink?

  With dark ominous overhead lighting. Talking in a quiet yet consequential tone. Because this is a very serious podcast. And is a serious honor to have King with us here tonight to share some of his experiences, some of his lessons learned and some of his humor with us. So, King, Kingsley, how do you say your middle name? Aloisius?

• 3:01Speaker 01

  Aloisius.

• 3:03Speaker 01

  Aloisius, Kingsley Aloisius.

• 3:04Jocko Willink?

  Kingsley Aloisius Penderhuse III. Well, thanks for joining us. It's awesome to have you here.

• 3:10Speaker 01

  Thank you for having me.

• 3:11Jocko Willink?

  I know Echo and I, we, we, I don't know who sent who a reel, but however many years ago it was, one of us sent the other one a reel. And said, check this funny guy out. And from then on, we like immediately followed you and we're tracking what you're doing and having a good time with it. Uh, because you make fun of people.

• 3:30Speaker 01

  I do.

• 3:30Jocko Willink?

  Which is fun.

• 3:31Speaker 01

  Guilty as charged.

• 3:33Jocko Willink?

  Kids always crack me up. And you do it, you know, in very, you know. Obviously, your, your, I would say your most prominent target area is all the people like me.

• 3:48Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 3:50Jocko Willink?

  So.

• 3:50Speaker 01

  Which also, I apologize.

• 3:52Jocko Willink?

  Oh, I don't care.

• 3:53Speaker 01

  At the same time, it's funny.

• 3:54Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 3:55Speaker 01

  It's funny.

• 3:55Jocko Willink?

  You gotta be funny. Um, and that's like, that's the way it is, like I just said, in SEAL Platoon, in SEAL Platoon, it's all day, every day. I've told the story about my wife when I went to college. So I was in the Navy and I went to college while I was in the Navy. So I was, for the first time in my adult life, I wasn't in the SEAL teams.

• 4:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:12Jocko Willink?

  And so my wife.

• 4:15Jocko Willink?

  Like when I needed someone to like pick on and rag on and it became my wife. And finally, after like two months of going to college and I came home and she hadn't done something, made dinner or something. I made some snide comment about it and she just looked at me and said, "Hey, I'm not a team guy." And I was like, "Oh." Cause she was right. Like all my little verbal sparring was just done with her and she didn't want to spar with me.

• 4:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:39Jocko Willink?

  So that's the way it is. That's the way it is in the teams. That's the way it is with everybody in the army, in the Marine Corps, the Air Force. Everyone's doing this and so you can't take yourself too seriously. And you certainly don't take

• 4:49Speaker 01

  I don't.

• 4:49Jocko Willink?

  Anyone very seriously.

• 4:51Speaker 01

  No, not at all. Not at all.

• 4:53Jocko Willink?

  So right on. Let's get into a little bit. Uh, let's get to your background. Where'd you grow up?

• 4:57Speaker 01

  So I grew up in Southern Maryland. Uh, I was born in a town called La Plata.

• 5:01Jocko Willink?

  Dude, Maryland is, is Maryland big enough to have a southern area?

• 5:06Speaker 01

  It kinda is.

• 5:06Jocko Willink?

  You could just say Maryland.

• 5:07Speaker 01

  It kinda is, but it's, it's, it's historically, it's, it's called Southern Maryland and the joke is, uh, if you live in DC, which I grew up in the DC area, but I was born in Southern Maryland. If you live in DC, Southern Maryland is 30, 40 minute drive. But they, the joke is that it's a different state altogether. Sometimes they say, "Oh yeah, I had to take a flight to Southern Maryland. I had to take a flight to Waldorf or La Plata." Um, but I was, I was born in Southern Maryland.

• 5:32Jocko Willink?

  My, my family is from, well, my mom's side of the family was all Southern Maryland.

• 5:36Speaker 01

  Really?

• 5:37Jocko Willink?

  So I used to be able to drive from Virginia Beach over the long ass bridge.

• 5:40Speaker 01

  Over the nice bridge.

• 5:41Jocko Willink?

  Yep. And go see my family.

• 5:42Speaker 01

  Did you ever pass that power plant with the two large smoke stacks?

• 5:45Jocko Willink?

  I probably did.

• 5:46Speaker 01

  I worked there.

• 5:47Jocko Willink?

  Oh, there you go.

• 5:48Speaker 01

  I worked there, uh, down there in Newburgh. But, uh, I, I grew up in Waldorf. So, uh, I grew up in Waldorf, but I ended up moving, when I moved out, I moved up to Prince George's County, which is closer to DC. So you're actually more accepted in DC if you live in PG County. But, uh, I, uh, it was, it was great. I mean, I, I grew up in, uh, mostly is low income apartment, uh, complex. Uh, it's just me and my brother and my mom.

• 6:12Jocko Willink?

  Did the apartment complex have a name?

• 6:14Speaker 01

  It did, but I'm not gonna say it. I'm not gonna say it. Actually, they changed the name.

• 6:18Jocko Willink?

  Okay, so maybe you can say the old name?

• 6:20Speaker 01

  No, no, you can still find. I'm not, I'm not gonna. I'll tell you guys later on, but um, it uh, it was just, it was just, you know, large apartment uh, community, one way in, one way out, and there's a lot of crime. I learned when I got older, there was a lot of crime that took place and a lot of the stuff that I was witnessing. It was just that, it was crime. And um, it wasn't until, there was one day I was in, uh, when I was in elementary school. We were going on a field trip and so on the bus, we're driving past my neighborhood. And one of the young ladies on the bus, she goes, "Oh man, that neighborhood's dangerous." She says, "Everybody over there has guns." And I'm like, and I'm sitting there, she was like, "Yeah, even the kids have guns." And so I'm hearing her talk, and I said, "Well, what neighborhood are you talking about?" And she points, and she literally points right at my apartment building, the building that I was, was living in.

• 7:05Speaker 01

  And I was like, "Oh my gosh, I gotta tell my mom."

• 7:08Jocko Willink?

  I need a gun.

• 7:09Speaker 01

  I need, yeah, I need, I gotta tell my mom, "This is dangerous." And so, sure enough, you know, it was just, it was just the nature of the neighborhood. Uh, there's guys that I grew up with that I'm still friends with to this day and people that I keep up with. Um, but it was about 50/50 on people who ended up in Department of Corrections for Drugs, Murder, all kind of other crazy stuff. So it was kind of a, it's kind of an interesting childhood. Um, when I was 11, we moved across town and moved into a townhouse. I never lived in a standalone house until I bought mine.

• 7:37Jocko Willink?

  Hell yeah.

• 7:38Speaker 01

  Um, but uh,

• 7:39Jocko Willink?

  America.

• 7:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, moved across town and uh, ended up, I, I, where I lived was, uh, I took a bus for middle school, but then I walked for high school. But my mom still lives in that house.

• 7:52Jocko Willink?

  Oh, right on, in the townhouse.

• 7:53Speaker 01

  In that townhouse, yeah. She still lives in that house.

• 7:55Jocko Willink?

  What was your mom doing growing up?

• 7:57Speaker 01

  So mom actually started out, she uh, she grew up in Florida. Um, she's from Lake County, Florida, a small town called Yumatilla. Uh, I found out that a lot of those towns-

• 8:06Jocko Willink?

  Bro, you'll tell us about Yumatilla, but you won't tell us about the apartment name.

• 8:09Speaker 01

  Oh, absolutely.

• 8:10Jocko Willink?

  But it's all good.

• 8:10Speaker 01

  Absolutely. Um, but a lot of those town names came from smaller, uh, offshoots of Indian tribes. So I think that's kind of where that came from. But when she went to college, she went up to Illinois.

• 8:20Jocko Willink?

  Thankfully, she named you Kingsley instead of Yumatilla.

• 8:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, can you imagine?

• 8:24Jocko Willink?

  Hell yeah.

• 8:25Speaker 01

  I'd probably go by something cool like Tilla or Yuma. I don't know. I don't know. But uh, Yeah, we're putting you, Matilla, on the map. I still go back every year. My wife and kids love it down there. It's great. But she ended up going to, she was outside, just outside of Chicago for college. That's where she met my dad. And my dad was Air Force. I don't know if, I don't know if he was still in when they met. But my dad, you know, is in the 80s. He looked like Billy Dee Williams, you know? He just had it. Dad had it back in the day. He still kind of does, but. Capricorn. Yeah. So, so they meet and I think within the first year, they end up getting pregnant with my brother. So my brother, it was kind of like, alright, you know, my mom and my dad,

• 9:10Speaker 01

  like, we got, we got a son on the way. This is great. This is fantastic. We're starting life together. And my brother was born and immediately, and I hate telling this story, but I'll tell it for sake of, you know, letting you know my family makeup, immediately got pregnant with me. Immediately. My brother and I were born 10 months apart. Damn. Which is wild. Think about that. 10 months apart. And I'm like, in order for that to happen, someone, one party or both, have to be extremely motivated and willing to sacrifice. And it's just, it's insane to me. So they got pregnant, they got pregnant

• 9:50Speaker 01

  with me in January of 85. And at some point, they broke up. My dad said, well, they broke up. So somehow my dad, they were never married. My dad ends up in California. And my mom's like, well, I'm going to Maryland to live with my sister. My aunt at the time, she's pretty much like, pretty much like my mom, second mom. So we go down and when I was born, I came home, that her house was the house I came home to. And that house was run by my uncle, who Navy veteran, he was a 05 commander. Oh dang, okay. Is it commander? Yep. Yeah, he was, he was an 05. And he would, he would kill me if I said his name on

• 10:32Speaker 01

  this podcast. Like, always been involved in like, I still to this day, I don't know exactly what he did. It wasn't until I started doing some high speed stuff with the military that he was like, oh, let me show you this. So started my life growing up in that house. It was my mom, my aunt, my uncle, and I had a cousin who's seven years older than me. My cousin, my brother, we're all brothers at this point. And for the first few years, when I was learning how to walk and talk, I would see my uncle and my cousin always called him daddy. And so I started calling my uncle daddy. To this day, I still like that's in his house that my kids call him Uncle Paw Paw. Like that is, you know, and he's the one that kinda, first he steered me towards graduating high school.

• 11:17Speaker 01

  Then he steered me to, hey, you gotta do something after high school, whether you go into a career field, get a certification, go to school. But he was very instrumental. And I know we were talking about swimming earlier. That dude could swim. So he never said he was a SEAL, but he never said he wasn't. But he really, he was really big on fitness and fitness, integrity, accountability, all of the things. And I tell you, report card day, he was gonna hold me accountable because I was off doing whatever I wanted. And yeah, so.

• 11:50Jocko Willink?

  Well, you know, if he was a SEAL, he absolutely would have told you.

• 11:55Speaker 01

  That's true. I wasn't gonna say that, but it's true.

• 11:59Jocko Willink?

  And so what are you into when you're, when you're in school and stuff? Like, what are you, what's your, what are you into?

• 12:04Speaker 01

  So my cousin played.

• 12:05Jocko Willink?

  What is it, the 80s? So it's the early 90s?

• 12:07Speaker 01

  Early 90s. So, late 80s, early 90s, I started playing soccer. My cousin was a soccer player and got into soccer and then more into the 90s, got into basketball and football and just kinda did the same thing all the neighborhood kids were doing. We were playing football every day in the neighborhood. So then, once I was able to get on a team, you know, same thing with basketball, once I could get on a team, that's just, that's pretty much all I did.

• 12:30Jocko Willink?

  Any good?

• 12:32Speaker 01

  I got by. I mean, I can, I can still, I could, I could probably play basketball better than I could play football, just because injuries over the years. But even like in high school, I wasn't, I wasn't a stellar athlete. I kinda just did it to stay out of trouble, to have something to do.

• 12:46Jocko Willink?

  Did you play, did you play on the varsity team of football?

• 12:49Speaker 01

  No, I never made it to varsity. Never made it to varsity.

• 12:52Jocko Willink?

  What about for basketball?

• 12:53Speaker 01

  Basketball? Never made it to varsity. I played basketball in high school. I played, so I played organized all the way up into high school. And then in high school, I used football as a means to have access to the gym. So my goal was, I was always a smaller guy and even like kinda, we gotta rewind a little bit. When I first started school, I had a very introverted personality. Like it was to the point where, you know, I was diagnosed with ADHD. They wanted to, and this is, this is the early nineties. So the Ritalin and all this other stuff and my mom said, no, there's nothing wrong with my baby. Typical, typical black mom, ain't nothing wrong with my baby. And she said that, she said it exactly like that. So, um, but, uh, I, I didn't talk. And I had some other health issues like with, with, I guess it was my bone structure to where I had to wear.

• 13:37Speaker 01

  It wasn't like Forrest Gump leg braces, but I had to wear these special shoes and, uh, or at least mama called them my special shoes.

• 13:43Jocko Willink?

  Bro, I bet your friends called him something else.

• 13:47Speaker 01

  So, so growing up with that and obviously, you know, we're low income. So it's not like, it's not like I'm showing up in Jordans. Um, but I ended up going from not talking, I'd go a whole day. I wouldn't say a word to anybody. But then when I saw my brother in the hallway, the jokes were on. To now, you know, once we got into the apartment and then ended up moving across town, I became the class clown. And back then I was really into art. I was really into drawing. That was like my favorite thing to do. But I didn't really have like a large circle of friends. I was still very introverted. And then so, uh, once we moved across town and I started going to a new school, uh, they were like, oh, he can, he can play soccer. So that means he can play basketball. He can run is what they were saying, which not really a runner.

• 14:29Speaker 01

  But, um, got into basketball and then once I realized that, hey, if I volunteer for the football team, I can go to the gym anytime. So I did that pretty much the entire time I was in high school, even though like when it came time for tryouts or when it came time, you know, to actually join the team. I'd be like, oh no, I got, I got some, I want to focus on my academics. Well, I've just got eight months of gym time for free and now I get to just do whatever. So it, it really never turned into anything.

• 14:57Jocko Willink?

  What kind of lifting were you doing?

• 14:59Speaker 01

  Back then.

• 15:00Jocko Willink?

  I'm asking this question because Echo is sitting over there thinking like, oh, I don't know what kind of lifting you was doing.

• 15:03Speaker 01

  I, I, it was, initially, it was, it was like sports. So they were doing Olympic lifts, but um, I got more into uh, just basic bench press. I did some accessory work. I didn't know what accessory work was back then. Um, but calves, shoulders, you know, all the things that people aren't, aren't highlighting. Um, but I, I, I got into that and then um, I never got into like the calisthenics, the, the cardio. I never got super into that, but I just wanted to, I wanted to be able to protect myself if I had to fight and I wanted to, I just wanted to get bigger. And so it kinda, it was the first time that I set a goal and I was starting to achieve, like when I start to lift more, started to achieve those goals and I saw that and that kinda carried over to where uh, way after that, I got into bodybuilding and powerlifting.

• 15:47Jocko Willink?

  Dang, alright. And what, so what was your plan that you were gonna do? You said your uncle was kind of like saying, hey dude, you need to, you need to get some kind of a track in your life. You need to find something to do. What plan did you come up with?

• 15:57Speaker 01

  So he put the fear of God in us and he showed up to my house. It was one summer. Um, he was in the reserve, so whenever he had duty, he would come by after. He and my cousin would come by and he'd bring food or you know, whatever. He'd be like, alright, what are we, what are we doing today? And like, you're not gonna sit and do nothing all day long. What are we doing? So one day he came by and he had this mechanics manual. It was this thick. And he throws it on the table and he just looks at me and I was like, you want me to read that? He was like, no, you're going to read it. And I was like, okay, it sounds like he wants me to read it, so I'm gonna read it. Um, but his thing was like, because I showed uh, technical ability in like other projects and I would help him work on the car or the motorcycle,

• 16:37Speaker 01

  because I showed some sort of proficiency in being able to put the pieces together. He was like, this is, this is something that might interest you. And sure enough, I got interested in it. And so he would come by and he'd say, alright, read this chapter and this chapter. And he would come by and he would quiz me. And if I didn't have the answers, boy. It was hell to pay. It was hell to pay if I didn't have the answers. But they ended up getting me an internship at, uh, uh, back then they had computer repair shops. And I got an internship at a computer repair shop and I learned essentially not how to build, but how to repair, how to troubleshoot everything regarding computers and

• 17:13Speaker 01

  he actually became an adjunct professor at one of the local schools. And so when I graduated, I applied for that school. I went to Southern Maryland for two years.

• 17:21Jocko Willink?

  And what did you study?

• 17:22Speaker 01

  General studies. I just did general because I didn't know exactly where to go from there. And I was looking at some of the specific programs they offered. And, uh, nothing really interested me. And that second year, um, I actually, uh, went and volunteered at a summer camp. There's a summer camp that I grew up going to, uh, in West Virginia and I volunteered because I could get credit hours or service, uh, credit hours from going to, to do stuff like that. So I went and volunteered and the second that we pulled on that campus in West Virginia, I saw the most beautiful woman I've ever seen in my life. And I looked at my brother, I was like, hey, that's my next girlfriend. Like just joking around. And, uh, you know, fast forward, she's my wife now, but, um,

• 18:04Speaker 01

  I, I see her and our, the van that we were in pulls up and they park right next to her and she's like, you know, unloading her stuff for the week outside of this little Saturn sedan and we catch eyes for a second. And so I waved, this is exactly what I did. I just waved and smiled. She looks at me, she goes, and I was like, well, that ship has sailed. Um, but, uh, you know, through the week, because it was a, it was a, it was a two week camp, but I was

• 18:27Jocko Willink?

  Was she like one of the other counselors or something?

• 18:29Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. And I showed up, I, my goal was to do security and just it's free meals and it's time away from home. I have no responsibility. I'm just security. Where they're like, oh, um, no, you're a counselor. So now you're in charge of 15 high school age kids at 20 years old. You're in charge of these 15 kids for their safety protection. And it was, it was a religious, it was a church camp. And so you, you're, you're their guide. And I was like, oh my gosh. I've never been in charge of anything at this point. And for the camp, they put you on a team. So like I have my 15 guys and then there's another, another dorm or barracks room. That's 15 other guys. And then, so you might have like 50 people or maybe not 50, maybe I'd say 30 to 40 people on each team.

• 19:13Speaker 01

  And so, uh, apparently, you know, I kind of locked in and got my team up to speed to where we won the entire camp for the week. So you do events, you do tasks, you do team building. And as you go through, you get points for it. And, um, I just, I was like, you know what? Now's my time to shine. And I just, you know, I was doing like these motivational speeches and it was, it was kind of comedy, but kind of not because all they, they just flock to me. And my team won. And so, uh, it was, it was really cool. It was my first time in a leadership experience, my first time actually like driving the train. And I just, I failed upward and we won. Um, and then, uh, that following week I had to go back to work. I was working at a car wash.

• 19:54Speaker 01

  And so, uh, going from the high of my first leadership experience, my first true victory. Uh, and meeting this woman that I wanted to, I knew I was in love with. And going back to working at the car wash was kind of like, it's kind of like a bummer. Um, so her and I, we had exchanged numbers and we had talked throughout the week. And then her team won the second week. So I was like, hey, that's great. I was like, we should celebrate, we should grab dinner. And she was like, absolutely. Now, keep in mind, I'm coming off of my first leadership experience, my first leadership victory, my first time as a camp counselor. And now this is my first like real date. I don't know what to do. What do, what do I do? Does she pay? Do I pay? Like I'm, I'm talking to my brother. I'm like, and he's kind of in the same boat as me. Cause again, we grew up as Irish twins.

• 20:37Speaker 01

  And he's like, dude, you gotta take her to Cheesecake Factory.

• 20:41Jocko Willink?

  Damn, going big time.

• 20:42Speaker 01

  I was like, you know how expensive that is? He was like, dude, he's like, hey, just, you know, get, get you some overtime at the car wash. You know, he's like, if you need any help, I'll give you some gas money. And at the time I was driving a 1992 Chevrolet Lumina.

• 20:54Jocko Willink?

  Hell yeah.

• 20:55Speaker 01

  With, I, I say, I say extensive, but it was, it was medium body damage from a crash. It was, I bought it from my uncle, uh, that my 05 uncle, uh, he had gotten into, uh, there was a DUI driver that crashed into him. And so I paid 800 bucks to get the vehicle fixed. And he said, you got, you paid to get it fixed. It's yours now. So our first date, our first real date. I go to pick my wife up and I'm in this trashy car. And she hops in and we go to DC and we go to Cheesecake Factory. And I'm looking at the menu and I'm like, I know what I'm gonna get. Cause I've been here before. I know what I'm gonna get. She starts ordering crazy stuff and I'm like, and I'm, and I'm like looking and I'm looking at the waitress and I'm like,

• 21:38Speaker 01

  maybe I'm gonna downsize my meal in order to facilitate hers. And I was like, no, no, I was like, it's cool.

• 21:43Jocko Willink?

  You end up getting breadsticks.

• 21:45Speaker 01

  I'm not hungry, but uh, so uh, it was, it was a learning experience because in my mind, I was like, gosh, I was like, how do I ask her to pay for half? And then right when I had that thought, I was like, I'm not gonna, she's not paying for this. So I was like, oh, excuse me, I need to go to the restroom. I leave the table, I go to an ATM. I had to check my account to make sure I had enough money to cover it and cover the tip and I did. And so I came back and she was like, oh, you were gone awhile. I was like, I was like, oh, I ran into a guy I knew, you know, just threw out some, some BS. And I came back and that was our first date and uh, the following week I got to meet her dad. So.

• 22:20Jocko Willink?

  Dang.

• 22:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:21Jocko Willink?

  So it went quick.

• 22:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was, it was pretty quick.

• 22:23Jocko Willink?

  And meanwhile, you're a car wash attendant.

• 22:26Speaker 01

  Yeah. So the car wash that I worked at, I was a, I was, it was, it was a self car wash. So like the one where you pull up and you wash your own car or you go through the, we had a laser wash 2000. It's cutting edge technology. Cutting edge. It was a touchless car wash. Um, it's still, it's still around today. It was a, if you, if you get the chance, if you're ever in Southern Maryland, head over to the La Plata Car Wash. Um, but um, so I call it.

• 22:49Jocko Willink?

  Tell him the king.

• 22:50Speaker 01

  I, I call it extreme plumbing because I went from not having any knowledge of air compressors, water pumps, any kind of filters or anything. To now, if one of the bays goes down, I have to get it back up within an hour because that's money. And uh, so um, I got on to, you know, replacing um, um, these high pressure pumps, these hoses. I emptied the trash, I cut the grass. I just, I was the only attendant on duty when I was there. And it was, it was work and I learned a lot from it. Um, but uh, it was, it was one of those jobs where it was like, this is the first job, this is my first real job. And here I am, I'm given free time. I'm given free time, free rain. And so in the winter time, it's busier because the salt's on the roads.

• 23:35Speaker 01

  So I said, you know what? I'm gonna go buy a gallon of purple power. I'm gonna pour it into a bucket, spray some water in there. I'm gonna scrub tires and see if I can get tips. I was out there in 20 degree weather scrubbing tires for eight hours and I made like 200 bucks that day. And I'm like, I'm gonna do this every day. So I would get my actual car wash duties done. And I made sure it's cool with the owner. I'd go out there and scrub tires and uh, you know, I've got tropical genetics, so the cold wasn't really a friend of mine. But uh, I, I, I was scrubbing tires and making money and that's essentially how I was able to date my wife and, and go on dates and we got to a point where once we got older.

• 24:17Jocko Willink?

  The cheese factory.

• 24:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. It, it, it just, and I saw that my job helped me to become, helped me to gain value as a man because now I can put gas in my car. I can wash her car. I can put gas in her car and I can take her to dinner. So it really, all these responsibilities, they kinda layered up all at once and I didn't even know it was happening. I had no clue it was happening. Of course, I'm my mom's youngest son. She didn't want, she didn't want her son, cause my wife is, she's a year and 10 months older than me. She didn't want her son getting snatched up by a cougar. So there was obviously this beef between my mom and my wife and that, that's what ultimately led to me moving out. I got, you know, got my own place. Uh, I ended up leaving the car wash and working at a lumber company. Uh,

• 25:01Speaker 01

  I built roof and floor trusses. Um, and that's where, that's why I learned a majority of the Spanish that I know now, which is all cuss words. Um, but uh, I worked there. I was at the lumber company and it was hard work. I remember my first eight hour day, you know, I'm out there, we're, we're, you know, rolling the trusses on the table and I've gotta stand them up and get them onto the roller, send them to the end. And then I got to a point where I got promoted where I was driving a forklift. Uh, I had a, I was doing these commercial trusses where you're supposed to stand them up so that you construct them flat. Then they, they roll them, they flatten all the plates and then you have to stand them up. And I was probably 140 pounds at the time. This truss was 300 pounds and I go to stand it up and this thing started like the weight, the full weight of this truss

• 25:43Speaker 01

  is on me and I'm like fighting for my life. And I was like, I have no choice but to succeed. If I don't succeed, I'm going to get hurt. And I just, I don't know, something in me, I just, I was able to push it all the way up. And then once I did it, I was like, I can do anything. I can do anything. This trust didn't stop me. I can do anything. And then shortly I was let go from the lumber company. But you know, things happen. Things happen.

• 26:07Jocko Willink?

  So what was the next move after the lumber company?

• 26:09Speaker 01

  So the next move, um, my mom, she said, she said, you need to go to the unemployment office. And I was like, for what? She was like, you're unemployed. You were let go. It was an administrative thing. You weren't let go for performance. They were doing, they were, they were, you know, they were cutting down, they were cutting back. They were trying to enhance their profit and they were spending, it, it cost them more to have me because I started to get into the engineering side of it as well. Started to get into inspecting trusses and everything else. But I was never taught how to do that. So that kind of fell by the wayside. And once they saw that some of these trusses weren't being expect inspected, they were like, right, we need to let go. Three people in production and two people in inspection. I was production and inspection. I was out of there. Um, so I went to the unemployment office and I'll never forget the guy there was air force veteran.

• 26:53Speaker 01

  He goes, you're a young man. You're strong. Have you considered the military? And I'm like, absolutely not. I will never join the military. I was like, I got a girlfriend, dude. Like, I can't leave her. I have a girlfriend. I can't join the military. He's like, people with girlfriends join all the time. And I was like, no, not me. Um, so I ended up finding a, a construction company out of Texas that had job sites throughout the nation. They happen to have one, uh, in Southern Maryland, right on the Virginia line, which was the power plant. And I got hired there as a laborer and I learned even more Spanish. Um, but I also learned that a lot of the guys who are speaking Spanish aren't here legally. Now, keep in mind, this is 20 years ago.

• 27:33Speaker 01

  And, uh, if there is a guy from, I don't know, Zacatecas, Mexico, I said it, I said it with the accent. Don't judge me. If he's from Zacatecas, Mexico and his name is, I don't know, Luke Goldberg. He's probably not Luke Goldberg. Um, so, uh, I was on, I was on the river. It's in the wintertime. It's cold and we go to lunch. We had, I think we had 30 minutes for chow. And you don't even get to go inside. You just sit under an awning. And they had like seven microwaves. So you go warm up your lunch and you eat your lunch. Well, uh, customs and border patrol, because this is, this is actually, no, this is right after ICE was formed. Um, customs and border patrol show up and we're now down strength like 40%.

• 28:16Speaker 01

  So now that's even more work that I have to do and it was it was the roughest job that I've ever had. I saw guys, that building is 200, I think it's 220 feet tall. I saw guys fall from elevation 90 down to elevation 20 and I've seen, that was the first time I ever saw a compound fracture. It's the first time I ever saw like any kind of like, like TBI-related injuries and it started to become a thing to where they, we had to stand down. And so during this stand down, I was like, I'm gonna take this time and start looking at other jobs because this ain't it. This hourly stuff, it's great money, but I'm working from 7 to 7. On Tuesdays and Thursdays, I would go straight to my wife's house, shower, and then we'd go on a date or spend time together.

• 28:57Speaker 01

  So it took a lot, like it took a lot of time. We were working six days a week. So I ended up finding a job with a company that was doing contracting. They, we built, we did inventory and we built out displays for the flooring department of Lowe's.

• 29:13Jocko Willink?

  Check.

• 29:13Speaker 01

  Yeah. So I get on with this company. I had an interview. My supervisor, Tim, super, super cool guy. This is my first real interview and I just, I just, we just talked and he was like, "Well, I really like you and I want to hire you, but this is the salary we're offering." He shows me the piece of paper. It is, it is a salary. It's not hourly, it is an annual salary. And I'm like, "A year?" I'll, yes, I'll do that. This was less than 30 grand, less than 30 grand a year and I immediately jumped at the chance and so immediately I was put in charge of eight different store locations to where I got paid mileage. So that was cool because, you know, going from Southern Maryland and DC area up to like, you know, Gaithersburg or, you know,

• 29:57Speaker 01

  the areas that are a little further out, I got a little, little more bang for my buck for doing that. And I did that, I did that for a little while. And then after I proposed to my wife, I took on a part-time job to pay for our honeymoon. And so I got this part-time job. I was doing security at Target and it was it was what they call a red store. It means that there's a lot of theft. There's a lot of nonsense and that was the first time that I had been involved in criminal apprehension. And it was terrifying. It was terrifying. You get you know, you get, you know, five guys that come in off the street that are there to steal. I think they were stealing, I think it was razor, the interchangeable razor heads at the time. Okay.

• 30:38Speaker 01

  And like luxury fragrances. I mean, if they have luxury fragrances at Target. But this was the first time that I'd been involved in apprehensions. And then after the apprehension, you call the sheriff's office, they show up. And I remember standing there and they sent this deputy, this female deputy, she was the same size as me. And I'm like, what is she gonna do if this guy fights back? And so that was, that was, it was kind of short-lived because once we got married, we had, we ended up moving to Virginia. Well, she lived in Virginia, but we moved, I moved to Virginia. And once we got married, I found another job as a construction engineering job. And I was doing soil testing, testing

• 31:19Speaker 01

  for like moisture and density. And then also I moved into concrete. And my only claim to fame on this job was that one of my job sites, I did commercial and residential, I worked on the Marine Corps Museum. Oh, wow. That was the biggest construction project I've ever been a part of. So I did the soil testing and they have a trail that goes up on the trail side, I guess the non-highway side. And they came through to shoot a documentary for, you know, what they're putting in and everything else. And we had already dug the footings for the wall and they started to put in stone. And we had to do a stand down. Well, anytime you do a stand down in the concrete business, you're not making any money. So I wasn't making any money. And I

• 32:01Speaker 01

  was like, there's gotta be something better. And I slowly, I don't want to say I lost motivation for the job. But if I'm taking commercial jobs and some of these contracts on the high side are getting cut down and they're saying, hey, we haven't got this approved. So you're on this contract, but it's not been approved yet. I'm an employee that's not getting paid. And so I end up going to a job fair, went to a job fair in Fredericksburg, Virginia. And there was, there were police agencies there. And so I'm like, I was like, well, I'm gonna go to every booth because I need a job. And I went to every booth and sure enough, these, these two police officers from Prince William County, they sweet talked me. And I was like, I'm gonna be a cop. And I went home and I told my wife and she was like, you sure? I was like, yeah.

• 32:46Speaker 01

  And she didn't say good. I thought she was gonna say good, but she was like, I don't know. So I end up going through the application process and did all the, all the things, the fitness test, the, the background check. And I walk in and the last thing is like this interrogation. You walk into this interrogation room, big glass, glass pane. This is right before you do your, or right after you do your polygraph. And the detective who facilitated, he actually, he, he passed away a few years ago. I killed, I still kinda kept up with him. He passed away a few years ago. He was a great dude, big jacked, former Marine Corps guy. And he walks in and he's got a blank sheet of paper and a pencil. And he sets it on the desk and I never forget, because he set it down and then he slid it. And I was like, what, what is going on?

• 33:30Speaker 01

  He's like, listen, we know where you grew up. We know, we know people who are where you're from. You gave us answers. We want more information for what you've done that you're hiding from us. And at this point, this is my first polygraph interrogation, or it's an interview. This is my first time experiencing this. I'm like, geez, this is just like the movies. And so.

• 33:52Jocko Willink?

  So this is, you had already taken the polygraph?

• 33:55Speaker 01

  I'd already taken the polygraph.

• 33:56Jocko Willink?

  And you gave whatever truthful answers that you.

• 33:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, I had a reaction. They said, or they said I had a, I know more about polygraphs now than what I did back then. He's like, you had a reaction on this question? We want more information. So he slides the piece of paper across. He gives me his spiel. He says, I'm gonna walk out that door. He said, when I walk out there, you write it down. You don't have to tell me, just write it down. No issue. When I come back in here, I'll take a look at it and we'll go from there. I said, okay, I'm not hiding anything. He goes, you don't have to talk. And like was completely, this whole thing was a psyop. And so he slides the paper. I sat in that room for 26 minutes. I couldn't think of anything to write. I was like, I told him everything. Did I tell him this? Yeah, I told him that. Oh, did I, did I steal from my brother and not, you know? And so I didn't write anything.

• 34:41Speaker 01

  So I hear the, hear the latch on the door. He comes in, he looks at the paper, he goes.

• 34:48Speaker 01

  He takes the paper and the pencil and he just walks out. And then so they send another detective in there like you're lying like literally he comes in and sits down. He's like, you're lying about something. And I said, you know what? I no longer want to be considered for this position. And he goes, he goes from like, so he's looking at me across the table. He's like, you're lying. And I told him, I said, I don't want to be considered for this position. He goes. Uh, well, hold on. I said, no, I was like, no, I, I, I don't want to be considered for this position. Now, he thought that they were breaking me, but and they were like, I was, I was, I was, I was broken at that point.

• 35:23Speaker 01

  But when I told him I didn't want to be considered for the position, I saw him break. This is the first time I've ever said something to another grown man who's in a position of power. And it, I guess it kind of appears as me standing up for myself and I literally watched him break in real time. And so I was like, well, I can't go back now. I've already made my statement. So they escorted me out the office and he stops me at the parking lot. He's like, listen, he's like, you're a great candidate for this job. You're a phenomenal candidate for this job. We think that you should reapply. He's like, we have to note your, you know, you, you want to be removed from the consideration. He was like, but we think that you should reapply. Here's my card, keep in contact. And I was like, sure thing. I got in my car and like balled it up and threw it in the backseat. I'm not, I'm not gonna, you know?

• 36:08Speaker 01

  And so at the time, we were still going on Sundays and getting the Washington Post and coming through jobs. And my wife was like, well, why don't you try this agency? This is a little closer to home. It's, you know, it's not as fast paced. There's not a whole lot that's really going on. And I was like, it's, it's the same, same thing. It was just closer to this is instead of being close to DC, it's closer to the city of Richmond. So she was like, well, I'm going to fill out an application and send it and see what they say. So back then there was no, I don't know. I don't think they had a typing application. You had to write it and my handwriting, I'm an artist. Okay. I'm an artist and a piano player. Kind of, I still give myself that title. But I had terrible handwriting. And so she fills out the application and sends it in. In the meantime, I go to work security at the hospital.

• 36:53Speaker 01

  I was like, I'm unemployed. I'm newly married. I have to do something. I cannot sit still. So I walk into the hospital. I drove, drove over there, I walk in, I asked where the security office was. I go downstairs, say, listen, I need a job. I will work any shift, any hours that you have, and I can start today. And the guy sitting across from me leans back in the seat. And he's looking at me and he yells, he goes, hey Mitch. And I hear a voice from out back go, yeah. He's like, we got a good one. And Mitch peeks his head in and it's this old retired Marine Corps black guy. And he's like, can he work tonight? And he looks at me, he goes, and I said, yes. I walked out of that interview with a uniform, a little, you know,

• 37:37Speaker 01

  top flight, security of the world badge and no training. And so I ended up coming back. I worked midnight shift while I was in the application process uh for the agency that I worked for. And uh, I learned a lot. I mean, that job prepared me for quite a bit. And going through the application process, I was very nervous because I really wanted to, to get that law enforcement job. I wanted to work for that agency. And I had never, there's still certain things I'd never experienced. Never experienced belligerent drunk people, never seen death, never, uh, never really experienced people in their last moments or people at their worst. And through my time there, I worked in ER to get an extra dollar 50 an hour. And I saw an insane amount. I'm talking from domestic violence to gang shootings to, to where, you know,

• 38:22Speaker 01

  the, the local police department would lock the ER down if there was a shooting that had just occurred and people arrived in personal vehicles. So stressful, it was very stressful, very fast paced work in the ER, very stressful. But uh, I, I, I got through it and um, I was so stressed from the job and from my application that I ended up getting shingles. And I'm like, I was like, what is this going on? Like it was, you know, it follows your nerve, your nerve endings around your rib cage. And I was like, what is it? I was like, I feel terrible. It hurts, but I can't take off work because I need money. And so I would work dispatch and working dispatch, I learned how to communicate with the police, give them the information, give them a description. Like even to this day, like I had an Uber driver yesterday at the airport and I'm like,

• 39:07Speaker 01

  and I sent him a message, you know, give him my shirt color like blackmail, you know, green shirt, blue jeans, brown backpack. And that's where I learned that. And it's something that's carried through. But they were like, hey, we had a code gray upstairs. You need to come get them so you can put them in the freezer. I said, excuse me? They're like, yeah, we're in charge of maintaining the custody of persons once they pass away and getting them into the freezer. I'm not, I'm not touching a dead, like, are you, are you kidding me right now? They're like, no, you have to put them in the bag, put them on a gurney, put them in the freezer. And I'm like, alright, okay, if this is what I have to do, this is what I'm gonna do. Well, this was an obese person. I don't know how much this person weighed, but they had these, and I'm, I'm sure you guys have seen body bags, the ones, the old school ones with like the little zipper.

• 39:49Speaker 01

  And so, uh, I go upstairs, we have to roll them into the bag. And, uh, these are like, uh, it, it wasn't like the, the plastic bags, it was like a Tyvek bag. And we get down to the freezer and I open up the freezer and the side of the freezer door kinda puts a little gash in the bag and I didn't even see it. And so I go to, to push, uh, I was on the side, my buddy, uh, was on the end and we go to, to push and the bag rips and the arm falls out of the bag and just...

• 40:18Speaker 01

  I don't know if you've ever been touched by a dead person. Listen, I've been in a lot of crazy situations. I, I was mortified, cuz I thought, one, this person's not dead and they're trying to get out of the bag. Two, this person is dead and this is the start of the apocalypse, this is the end for all of us. And then, three, somebody's playing a terrible joke on me. Like, there's gotta be, and so, I had my little freak out and had, had a little panic moment. I, I did.

• 40:46Jocko Willink?

  I was gonna say, it's like a, such a good opportunity to mess with a new guy, right?

• 40:49Speaker 01

  It is.

• 40:50Jocko Willink?

  Hey, we got a body up there.

• 40:51Speaker 01

  It is. But check this out. The senior guys had never seen this happen before, so I looked down at the end of the gurney, they're freaked out too. And they didn't even get touched by the dead person. Um, so we get another bag, we double bag, I've never closed a freezer so fast in my life, close that freezer and, but I had never seen death firsthand. I had never, you know, a, a dead body that's still warm, it's, it, at that, at that time, that was like, you know, I, I, I don't know what I was thinking. It was insane to me. Whereas now, once I actually did get hired by the sheriff's office and I was responding to death scenes or, or, you know, gory scenes, I still don't do well with blood. In the moment, I'm fine. In the moment, in a pinch, I'm, I'm fine with blood, but my adrenaline dumps, oh my

• 41:34Speaker 01

  gosh, man, they're, they're so bad now. But going back to the, the hospital. So I did my time there. I ended up meeting an old guy, an old guy named Charles. He's in application process with another agency further north, retired army guy, very smart guy. And he and I just clicked and we're, we get along. He gets hired and he's like, hey, tonight's my last night. You know, if you want to grab a child together, you know, we'll just talk. So I kind of picked his brain and he gets hired by this agency and he goes and works up north. I didn't see him again for years. So I get hired to work just outside of Richmond and I did that job. I was at that agency at that time for five years, maybe a little, maybe a little more. But I

• 42:15Jocko Willink?

  So how old were you when you went through like, so you went through the police academy, I'm assuming?

• 42:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, I was 22.

• 42:20Jocko Willink?

  And how was the police academy?

• 42:21Speaker 01

  Uh, it was stressful because I had never done any kind of paramilitary. We had some guys that came out of the Marine Corps to join and um, my first day of the academy, I was dealing with, uh, I was dealing with some athlete's foot issues and I wore white socks. So here I am in my academy uniform, my dark blue shirt, my khaki pants, white socks and dress shoes. And they issued like the chloroframes and I'm sitting on the front row and I remember I'm like trying to cross my ankles to hide my socks because those are only cotton socks that I had. Everything else was like some sort of blend, like dress, dress socks. And, uh, the major, yeah, he was a major at the time. He was retired army

• 43:03Speaker 01

  sergeant major. And he comes over to the table and he looks at me, he looks at my socks and he always kept a toothpick in his mouth and he goes, so this what we doing? Okay? And he walks away and I'm like, oh my gosh. Um, but throughout the police academy, it was, it was very challenging and rightfully so. Police academy in 2007, 2008 timeframe was very different than what it is now. And, uh, at that point I had never shot, you know, semi-automatic pistol. I'd only shot my granddaddy's revolvers. Um, my granddaddy used to, he, he was, he used to trap. Um, that's kind of, it was kind of his side business was he'd trap and he'd either get raccoon, possum, or whatever he could trap. And then he, you know, there was a market for it to sell the meat. And, uh, so he'd take us out

• 43:47Speaker 01

  to the traps and we'd have to shoot the raccoons. And so I had always shot this little tiny 22, uh, that he kept in the, in the glove compartment of his El Camino. So, you know, my first time shooting, I was shooting a Sig 220 and I got this 45 in my hands and I'm not even looking at the target. I'm looking at the gun because I'm watching this little tiny explosion take place in my hands and I shot horrible. And so, um, fitness wise, no issue. I learned, that was where I learned that I could do pull ups. I learned that I was really good at pull ups. But they ended up putting me in remedial shooting. I was the only one in the class that got remedial. Dang. And. Ouch. Yeah, I didn't, but I didn't care. I didn't care because I'm not, I'm not trying

• 44:30Speaker 01

  to impress anybody around me. I didn't really have that sense of competition. You're just hoping to get through it. I just want to get through it because I got bills to pay. And so, um, I went through the entire academy with the mindset that I'm not going to make it. I kept that mindset the entire time. And, um, my buddy Wayne, he's since retired. He's an older guy, a former Marine Corps guy. He's like, look, if you're willing to give me, give up your lunch break, I'll go out there, we'll get a few boxes of ammo and we're just going to shoot. He said, no rush, no timer, no time standard, we'll just, we'll just walk through it. And it was, it was probably about a five day span because academy was Monday through Friday. And every day, instead of eating lunch, I'd go out there and I'd shoot

• 45:13Speaker 01

  with Wayne and he taught me how to shoot. And I got passing score on that. And I was like, okay, the next option after, or the next obstacle after the passing score on that was the final exam. And then, um, what they do is they do the, you do your final exam for the state for Department of Criminal Justice. And then you do like this court, uh, this mock court thing to where you have every lesson plan from the entire academy. You get every single thing, every single document that you've done, every piece of paper they give you. And they just give you this stuff that's, hey, put it in your binder. Well, my binder was so organized. If they said, "We're looking for this," I had a table of contents.

• 45:52Speaker 01

  I had little sticky notes. They said, "We're gonna give you a topic. We're gonna give you a PowerPoint or something we want you to pull up. You need to be able to refer to your, your own documents and be able to find it. This is record-keeping. Big part of law enforcement." And so, they had a stopwatch, and then they had another binder where they had the questions. And so, they'd go through and say, "All right, pull up, I don't know, 'Use of force, day two.'" "Well, I've got 'use of force' marked. I can turn the page. I'm at day two." I didn't realize, I think you had like a minute and 30 seconds to be able to pull it up. And I could just go straight to it within the first 20 seconds. And what that translates to is, if you're testifying in court and you've documented something,

• 46:34Speaker 01

  your, the, the, the trust that either the jury or the judge has in what you're finding is your accurate documentation. And so, that's, that's another thing that I carried with me. And so, I, I made it through. I, I passed my exam, made it through, got my assignment. And I, I just drank from the fire hose. I just, I drank from the fire hose. There was a lot of guys that had done law enforcement, narcotics detectives in the 70s and 80s, so like the crack epidemic. And these guys had wild stories. And they just, they, they taught me so much. Uh, there's one guy in particular, Dave Carroll. I know he won't mind me saying his name. Uh, actually, I don't, I don't know if he's, I don't know if he's still with us or not, but, uh,

• 47:14Speaker 01

  this guy had insane stories from downtown Richmond in the 70s and 80s. And I remember thinking like, "I don't know if I could ever do the things that he did." And then he looks at me, and I, I'd say something like, he'd go, "Sure you can, if you have to." And I was like, "Wait, so this guy's a senior guy, and he's got faith in me that I can actually do these things?" And it just, it really kinda, like I said, each job, each person, each, uh, you know, friend or, or relationship that I had, it built me up for the, for the next.

• 47:42Jocko Willink?

  What was it when you first got out of the academy and you go, you said your first assignment? Like, what was your first assignment?

• 47:47Speaker 01

  I was, I was.

• 47:47Jocko Willink?

  Just out there?

• 47:48Speaker 01

  No, no, I was in a civil process. So, uh, serving like subpoena, uh, different business, different civil, uh, processes. Uh, I was, I was a civil process server. But if patrol needed a backup or if they need, if they were going to something.

• 48:01Jocko Willink?

  What does a civil process server do? I don't even know what that is.

• 48:03Speaker 01

  So we get, so you get like the subpoena or you get writs. So like for civil cases, uh.

• 48:08Jocko Willink?

  Just to bring it to someone's house and say like, you're being served?

• 48:10Speaker 01

  You have to serve them. Um, but if you were doing like, um, summons for unlawful detainer in Virginia is an eviction. You have to facilitate an eviction. So you go, you make your notification, you post documentation, you set a date. They've got three business days. So you set the eviction and then you have to show up and make sure that no nonsense happens during the eviction. I didn't know it at the time, evictions are very dangerous.

• 48:32Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I would imagine so.

• 48:33Speaker 01

  Um, the first big thing that I had, we had, uh, there was a member of, uh, Texas Chakana Brotherhood. This is the first like big, big time, like actual, like no BS gang member that we had. And they were like, hey, we have a warrant for this guy. We're going to go to this address. We need you to be there. Um, you know, this is the time we're doing it. And I was like terrified. I was like, man, I've, I've been doing civil process. I haven't done any of these like larger apprehensions, um, especially working with other agencies like the marshals. Um, but they were like, we want you there, you know, to be able to be on perimeter or block traffic. And so I was like, okay. So now I'm terrified. Um, and they're like, all right, let's go. And we, we moved, we went to the house. Uh, I've never said this publicly, but someone crashed my police car to that young man's mailbox.

• 49:18Speaker 01

  I'm not going to say who, I may or may not know who, but someone was, someone was driving my police car that I was assigned and they crashed it into his mailbox, uh, because they were so nervous about what was about to go down. Um, I was going to leave that alone, not going to actually, well, statute of limitation, no, nevermind. We'll leave that alone. Um, but I ended up inside the house and I'm face to face with this guy. And this is after he's already been apprehended, he's in handcuffs. And he looks at me, he goes, new guy.

• 49:48Speaker 01

  I didn't even lie, like I used to try to lie and be like, I'm not new. But he looks at me, he goes, new guy. I said, yes, sir. He goes, you're the only one that's called me sir. And I was like, it's probably because I'm new. And he just laughs and he was like, look. He was like, you've chosen a respectable job. He said, don't ever be afraid of guys like me. He was like, because there's a certain level of respect that you give. And there's a certain level of respect that you get in return. And I'm like, still kind of scared, but I'm like, wow, this guy's like, he's like mentoring me right now in handcuffs.

• 50:18Jocko Willink?

  Putting out work.

• 50:19Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. And so it was, it was just really cool. And then I had another few interactions to where I was doing a prisoner transport and I was trying to hurry and get it done. And I walk in, we call the guy out of the cell. He sits down, I'm just taking him maybe about a mile or two up the, up the street to the jail. And I open the cell door, he comes out and he sits in the chair because normally will, if it's older guy will shackle their feet first. But he sits in the chair and he goes, you're not taking me anywhere. I was like, excuse me? He's like, you're, you're not taking me anywhere. I was like, dude, what are you talking about? Like you're, you're going to fight me right now? He's like, no, no, he's like, I'm not, I'm not messing with you. It's older guy. He's like, I'm not messing with you. He's like, but you're not taking me anywhere.

• 51:03Speaker 01

  And I said, why? He said, he looks at me, he goes, you still have your gun on. And I looked down, you're supposed to stow your gun before moving inmates. He goes, you still have your gun on. And if you still have your gun on, I can only imagine what other things you, you know, don't do the right way. And he's like, I'm not going anywhere with you. So you might as well call the supervisor now. And I'm like, I'm getting called out. Now, keep in mind, there's a cell full of inmates. And now they're all joining him like, hey, he don't know, he, he don't know what he doing in here. Hey y'all, come get him. He's stupid. And it just, it really, it was one of those points where I could have just puffed my chest up, be like, I'm going to put my gun away and you're coming with me. I was like, I was like, dang, he got me.

• 51:44Speaker 01

  He got me.

• 51:44Jocko Willink?

  You got got.

• 51:45Speaker 01

  I got got. So I don't know if you noticed the theme of me constantly getting called out for things that I'm, I'm, I'm rushing through things. I'm overlooking things. I'm doing things the wrong way. Constantly getting called out in a safe way, but constantly getting called out.

• 51:58Jocko Willink?

  By perpetrators.

• 51:58Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. By criminals.

• 52:03Jocko Willink?

  That's fired up where the criminals have the experience to call out.

• 52:06Speaker 01

  Exactly. Exactly. Hey, you doing that wrong? Hey, thanks, sir. You're going to jail. But, uh, so, you know, constantly getting called out and I would overlook things. I would overlook the little things. And, you know, I had a conversation to where if you overlook the little things, those little things can grow into big things and it can be detrimental.

• 52:25Jocko Willink?

  Well, yeah, like if a guy grabs your gun.

• 52:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:28Jocko Willink?

  Have, we're supposed to have.

• 52:29Speaker 01

  Absolutely. And, uh, so it was, it was kind of a rough go initially and I was kind of, you know, I, I did have points where I felt sorry for myself, but, you know, growing up, I was, my dad always taught me, my dad used to, when we'd go visit California, my dad was like, every night, you will do 10 pull ups and 100 reps of jump rope. He had an old boxer's jump rope. He'd do 100 reps. He said, you will not go to bed until it's done. And I was really good at pull ups. My brother was good at jump rope. He said, you've got 10 reps of pull ups. He's got 10 reps. He said, you can do his 10 reps and he can do your jump rope, or you can switch the reps, he said, but either way, this number of reps needs to get done before we go back into the house. Cause we're in the garage. And, uh, so, so kind

• 53:09Speaker 01

  of, kind of learning that, like, there's no shortcut to doing pull ups. There's no shortcut to doing jump rope. You have to do the reps before you can go and get exactly what you want, or before you can, uh, move on from this task. And so kind of having that mindset, it, it, it's all built on, it, it just perpetually built to where, um, I was still at the, at the agency I was at, but I ended up joining the Army National Guard. And the reason I ended up joining was because I sat in, uh, an eval. I sat in a performance eval and my marks were never stellar, but my 05 Navy uncle taught me that you don't put on a cold uniform. You gotta get that uniform

• 53:52Speaker 01

  off the iron. You gotta iron it before you put it on. For the years I was there, I never left the house without ironing my uniform first. I ironed my uniform. Every time I put it on, it was warm from the iron. And so. I would, yeah. He was, he taught me a lot.

• 54:08Jocko Willink?

  When I went to OCS, the, the drill instructor, like Marine Corps drill instructor, awesome guy. His name was, his name ironically was Gunny Sergeant Seals.

• 54:17Speaker 01

  Really?

• 54:18Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And I remember the first time he's showing us how to iron and bro, it was like a military operation.

• 54:24Speaker 01

  That's what it became.

• 54:27Speaker 01

  But even with that mindset and ironing and I had, I'm talking, I had creases everywhere. I had, there were creases, I mean, like my, my pants crease came all the way up to the belt line. No other officer was doing that because you're sitting in a car, you're, you know, you're wearing this duty belt. And I would still get, you know, average for my uniform eval. But then you had people who were obese, who had uniforms, they had crumbs on their uniforms. They had wrinkly pants. They had all these things and they're, and they're getting higher than me. And I started to see how the personality and the friendship aspect played into that. And it, it bothered me and I remember sitting, I was sitting in a performance eval and my lieutenant was sitting across the desk and my sergeant was sitting right next to me.

• 55:11Speaker 01

  And my sergeant's not, well, that sergeant was my FTO, the one who essentially taught me how to be a cop. He's a, he's a major now. He's one of the command staff.

• 55:22Speaker 01

  Great dude. He, he's sitting there and he's kind of like vouching for me. Because my LT is this older black woman, she's looking at my marks and she's like, this is not good. This is not good. And he's like, well, this is because of this. And he's kind of like arguing my case. It's like I'm standing there and he's my lawyer. And he's trying to, you know, beseech the judge's good grace. And so she was like, well, we noticed, we noticed, you know, you're, you're kind of, you're not as enthusiastic as you once were. You know, you're not dragging your feet, your work's getting done. You're still, you're still semi motivated, but you've, you've lost motivation. And at that time I had put in for all these extra trainings. I put in to become an instructor to, I was volunteering at the academy.

• 56:03Speaker 01

  There was a ton of stuff I was doing. I was working around the clock, picking up extra shifts, taking people's on-call rotations. Like there was a lot that I was doing. And I, I remember sitting in the chair and thinking like, I'm not going to let my sergeant speak for me. I was like, I'm going to say something. I was like, well, and right when I said, well, I could, I couldn't see it, but I could feel his head snap and look at me like, please don't say anything stupid. I said, well, honestly, I feel like I'm spinning my tires. I'm wasting my time here. I'm doing all this extra stuff, spending all this time away from my wife and all this time away from home. And everything that I put in, every, you know, request I put in gets denied. And there are people who show up who are doing the bare minimum. We got guys that'll get, they'll get mad, they'll get pissed off at something and then immediately call out sick the next day.

• 56:49Speaker 01

  Like maliciously and it's something that's a constant thing. These people are getting these positions that I'm putting in for. And here I am essentially losing sleep to come to work. And I get nothing for it. And I use that, that exact phrase, I'm spinning my tires. And I heard Sarge go, well, LT, what he means is, I said, no, Sarge, I was like, what I mean is exactly what I said. And LT looks at me and she brings her glasses down, she goes, hmm. Well, I guess we're done here. And sends me back to work. So now, I don't know, I don't.

• 57:21Jocko Willink?

  So did you just have like so much pent up frustration? Was this?

• 57:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:25Jocko Willink?

  And this was at like the five, you've been there for five years?

• 57:27Speaker 01

  I think at this point I was at, yeah, I was, it was, it was right around five years. And I was frustrated. I was frustrated because I would put in for, to be, you know, an instructor and someone else would get picked. And it just, it made no sense because if, if my uniform, let's, let's start there. If my uniform obviously is something that I take pride in. If my paperwork and everything that I'm doing is something I take pride in. Why is there someone who I'm outperforming that's getting exactly what I'm looking for? And I, I really, I did, I was upset about that. And over time, I, I don't want to say I became complacent. But it got to the point where I felt like I started to be targeted.

• 58:07Speaker 01

  I had one day walking out of the office where there was a captain that comes downstairs and he was like, hey, come here real quick. Let me talk to you.

• 58:15Speaker 01

  And I go talk to him, he says, how are things? I said, things are fine. He goes, okay, cool. He said, uh, let me see your handcuffs. Taking my handcuffs, I hand them to him. He looks at him, holds him up to the light. He's like, "Hm, did you oil these?" I said, "No." He's like, "Okay." He said, "Let's go outside." We go outside. He says, "Clear your weapon. Hand me your gun." I had just done firearms like two days before. So I, I mean, I hadn't cleaned it to the extent that it should have been cleaned. He said, "Hand me your gun." So I clear it. I lock and show clear and hand it to him. He looks at it. He goes, "You clean this?" I said, "I just did a quick clean after the range." He goes, "Hm," hands it back to me. I go about my day. The next day, LT calls me into the office. It's like, "Hey, you got door duty. You're gonna, you're gonna work the door because the captain

• 58:59Speaker 01

  came down here and your gun was dirty. Your cuffs weren't oiled. You got door duty." And I sat on that door. I think, uh, I think six weeks I sat on the door and just greeting people as they came in, doing the, running the, um, the metal detector and getting people into where they needed to be. And that whole time I was like, I dropped the ball. Like normally, people will get door duty and be like, "Oh, man, that LT's got it out for me." But that whole time I was like, I legitimately dropped the ball. My, my gun needs to be cleaned. My equipment needs to be serviced. And so people thought that I was disgruntled. I wasn't disgruntled, but I was like, I dropped the ball. And this is years. I'm, I've been doing this for years now, so I need to know. I know better.

• 59:40Speaker 01

  And so on the way home, uh, I pass, uh, an army, uh, recruiting sign. It's just a little, uh, billboard on the side of the road. Uh, there was a army one and an air force one side by side. And I said, "Oh, Dad was air force. I'll, I'll call the air force." Called him, waited a week, no call back. I was like, "Well, maybe this is a sign. I'll call there. I'll call the army now." So I called the army. Hello? Immediately. Hell, yeah. And so, um, that was in July. That was June or July of 2010. Uh, or was it? Yeah, no, it's 2011. And, uh, I go and I take the ASVAB. And I took the ASVAB in high

• 1:00:20Speaker 01

  school, but because I was a class clown, you know, you've got your whole grade in this auditorium. I'm obviously sitting with friends. We started cracking jokes. The, the, it was a Marine Corps NCO that was there facilitating it. He's like, "That whole row, get out."

• 1:00:37Speaker 01

  And I'm looking and we're all like doing like this. He was like, yep, that whole row get out. And I was like, oh no, I want to take the ASVAB because I'm, you know, I just want to see where I land. He's like, nope, out. Keep in mind, this is during like a lunch period. So I have no class scheduled. I've now been kicked out. Now I have to roam the halls and if I'm caught roaming the halls or skipping class, straight to detention. So I was like, well, where can I go? So I go to the gym. I go to the gym and I'm like, hey, we were just kicked out of the ASVAB. Can I just at least, you know, hang out in here and clear my mind? So I did that. And so I never took the ASVAB. So now here I am as an adult and I'm like, man, I gotta take the ASVAB. I haven't done math in years. And so I got one of those study guides and I'm studying and at the time I didn't really

• 1:01:21Speaker 01

  have much confidence in my intelligence. And even now, like I still, I have a little bit more now, but even now, like I'm never the smartest guy in the room. But uh, I'm going over the study guide. I go to take the ASVAB and there were three total. It was me and two other guys. Those two guys were trying for the Marine Corps. I was trying for the Army. And so I sit there and I go through this test and I'm like, okay, you know, when's it going to get difficult? When are the difficult questions coming along? And I finish it and I was like, I didn't have any, it wasn't super difficult. Like there were some that were challenging. It wasn't super difficult. So I turn it in, go wait in the waiting area. So then the other two guys finish and they come out. And so we're standing there while the proctor's grading the test. And so he calls us back in, calls the other, I was at the end of the line, calls the other two guys back in

• 1:02:05Speaker 01

  and I'm at the back of the line. And he's sitting at a, it was a typewriter, or yeah, I think it was a typewriter. And he goes, he says, last name, you give him your last name. And he looks at you and he's like, hey, he looks at the first guy, he's like, hey, better luck next time. He's like, if you want to be a Marine, you can. You just gotta be a little bit smarter. You gotta do a little bit better on the test. The guy had gotten like a 24. And so he hangs his head and he goes out the door. The next guy, he was like, hey, listen, better luck next time. And I'm like, oh, my gosh. Oh, my gosh. Like, everybody's failing. I failed. I was like, I'm too confident with this test. Everybody's failed. He goes, yeah, better luck next time. You know, gives him whatever paperwork. The guy goes out the door. The guy had gotten like the same score.

• 1:02:48Speaker 01

  So I walk up and he goes, he looks at it and then he looks at me. And I'm like, he's about, he's about to give me the spiel. I'm about to hear it. Better luck next time. And he pulls his glasses down. It's a, it's a reoccurring theme. People pulling their glasses down. He goes, son, you can choose any job you want in the army.

• 1:03:05Jocko Willink?

  Nice.

• 1:03:06Speaker 01

  I said, what does that mean? He said, it means you scored high enough on this test that you can choose any job you want in the army. He's like, you need to find exactly what you want to do and make sure it's in your contract. And I was like, okay, got it. Had no clue what that meant, but got it. So I called the recruiter. I was like, hey, great news. He was like, hey, listen, you're already in law enforcement. We've got you slided for an MP. I was like, okay, uh, let me, let me think about that. Give me a few days to think about it. He's like, no problem. Call me back whenever. So I go home and, uh,

• 1:03:38Jocko Willink?

  How old are you? You like 27?

• 1:03:40Speaker 01

  I was 26.

• 1:03:40Jocko Willink?

  26, check.

• 1:03:42Speaker 01

  And so I go home and I'm looking through like the brochure and,

• 1:03:45Jocko Willink?

  It must be weird. I went to a recruiter when I was 18, you know? Actually, I was 17. So they're just looking at you like licking their lips. I got this fool. But for somebody that's 26,

• 1:03:54Speaker 01

  They, they thought that I just, I just needed a job. Like, you know, I'm just gonna be a pushover. And, uh, I knew what I was doing by going to the guard because I was gonna keep my law enforcement certification. I was gonna keep my job. And while going through training, I was gonna double dip. That was the thing was that I still get paid from the sheriff's office, but also I get my army salary going through my entirety of training. So, um, I called my brother-in-law and, uh, I have an older sister, but we didn't grow up together. And we actually haven't spoken in years. Um, during COVID, she, we, we kinda, I don't wanna say we butt heads, but we just had a falling out and, uh, haven't really, uh, spoken to them, uh, in a long time. But I called my brother-in-law. He had gone through, uh, OCS. He was in the infantry. He was down in Georgia.

• 1:04:37Speaker 01

  And I called him and I said, dude, I, I don't, I don't know what direction to go. And his exact words were, just join the infantry. Just go be a killer. And I was like, he wouldn't steer me wrong. He would not steer me wrong at all.

• 1:04:49Jocko Willink?

  And this is like 20 what? What years?

• 1:04:51Speaker 01

  Oh geez, 2007, 2000?

• 1:04:54Jocko Willink?

  So you're like, the war's on.

• 1:04:56Speaker 01

  This was 2000, no, no, no, no. I had the idea in 2008, but it wasn't until 2011 that I actually was going through the process.

• 1:05:03Jocko Willink?

  Okay, so it wasn't quite as obvious at that time. Afghanistan was over. Or at least, well, no, not over, but it was winding down. No, sorry, Iraq was over in 2011.

• 1:05:15Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 1:05:16Jocko Willink?

  Afghanistan was still going on.

• 1:05:18Speaker 01

  And so, um, he's like, yeah, just go be a killer. And so what I ended up doing was I was like, okay, I'm joining the infantry. I've already got it set out. I'm joining the infantry. He told me, he told me, he said, he said infantry airborne ranger school. He said, just get that in your contract. You'll be, you'll be fine. So I go home and I'm looking through the state, uh, like the state national guard, um, there was a pamphlet. And I was like, there's no bonus for infantry. There's no bonus at all. I was like, I, I'm doing this because I need some sort of supplement to my financial situation. If I, if I go intel, I can, I can get this bonus. It's a pretty good bonus.

• 1:05:53Speaker 01

  It was kind of scary because you do have to be smart, you know, and I didn't, still didn't think I was that smart of a guy. But, uh, I was like, I'm gonna go, I'm gonna go intel. I'm gonna do, I'm gonna go into the intel field. And I'm gonna find something specific in there and I'm gonna do that. And the schools were, the schools for that were pretty long, but you could still get your contract squared away before you, you ship out. And so, uh, I called the recruiter. I was like, hey, I want to go, you know, there's an intel unit that's in Northern Virginia. I want to go intel. And he goes, oh, we don't have that available. Like without, he, it didn't even sound like he looked through and he just said, we don't have that available. I said, oh, that sucks. He goes, so you ready to be an MP? I said, no, thank you for your time. I was like, uh, you know, I appreciate it. I was like, but I'm, I'm not, I'm not gonna do this if I can't, you know, go intel.

• 1:06:35Speaker 01

  And, uh, just hung up the phone and within like two days he called me back. He's like, hey, you still interested? I found you a spot.

• 1:06:41Jocko Willink?

  A slot just opened up.

• 1:06:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, and that's, that's exactly what he did. And so, um, I go down to Fort Lee to go through MEPS and, uh, I didn't know what a security clearance, I didn't really know what it entailed at the time and, uh, so I go through my security interview and I'm looking at the, the resume that they're going over to ask me my security questions. And my recruiter had filled in missing information rather than ask me or say, hey, do you have this person's information? He just filled it in. And he hands it to me. He says, hey, whatever they ask you, just agree with what's on the paper. And I'm sitting there and I'm on the phone with the feds because they're doing the the background investigation and I was like, I'm not a liar. Like I'm, I'm, I'm not a liar at all. And he's like, all right, you know, from this time to this time, you worked at the lumber company and your supervisor was this, is this correct?

• 1:07:28Speaker 01

  And I went, no.

• 1:07:32Speaker 01

  And one of the recruiters was sitting and watching me while on the phone and he sits up in the seat and he's like, and the guy's like, wait a second. So some of this information isn't correct? And I said, a lot of it's incorrect. And he goes, who filled this out? I said, well, I got them as much information as I could find, but this final product that's in front of me, they, they filled out. And he's like, again, and you can hear him like, kind of like he's, he's been through this before. And, uh, so he's like, all right, get as much of the correct information as you can. You've already got a ship date. They're going to ship you to basic. We'll conduct your interview while you're in basic. And so I ship out to basic and, uh, it was, it was easy. They tell you what to wear,

• 1:08:13Speaker 01

  where to go. It was, it was really easy. And I was 26 going through this. So it, it was, the hardest part was being away from my wife. And at that time we'd had our first kid. And, uh, one day we were on the range, we were doing, we were doing a marksmanship and they call my name out. And like anytime you hear your name called in basic, like,

• 1:08:32Speaker 01

  I'm going to go over there and I'm going to have, they're going to make me stronger because I'm going to have to do a bunch of pushups. And so they call my name. So I grab a battle buddy and I go over there and they're like, no, no, no battle buddy needed. And I'm like, okay. So by myself, like, which is kind of against protocol, but because it was a security interview, they couldn't have anybody present. So we're standing there and he's like, hey, we got your updated information. We just want to go over this, make sure it's right. So go over my security, uh, information. He's like, well, you know, by the time you graduate basic, congratulations, you're going to have a clearance. And I was like, oh, that's awesome. And he goes, he's like, so your first packet, he's like, what was the deal with that? I said, I got the recruiter as much information as I could. He either had the gaps and just decided to fill them on his own or just made it up.

• 1:09:14Speaker 01

  And, and I told him, I was like, you know, I, I didn't feel comfortable lying about that. And he was like, well, that wasn't a test, but that shows a tremendous amount of character. So now after all these years of being built up as just, you know, do the right thing, make sure your equipment's in order. Now I have someone from the outside looking in who's telling me that I have a good, good character. And these are things that, I mean, I didn't necessarily grow up hearing, but seeing this like, wait a second, now I'm actually, I'm actually doing something. And then so, uh, ship out from, uh, basic and go to A I T. Uh, there's a, there's a few months and then come home and have to go right back to the sheriff's office. So now I'm back at the sheriff's office and I didn't realize it, but now there's a riff

• 1:09:56Speaker 01

  because I've got, uh, you know, once a month I have to do a Friday, Saturday, Sunday. So that means I'm missing a Friday. I'm unavailable for on-call for Saturday, Sunday. So it's kind of taking my name out of the pot. So all the work and the volunteering that I was doing before, I couldn't do. And so they were like, well, we see that your orders say that you have to be, you know, at drill on the 14th. We, we can't afford, well, that'll put us down personnel. And I said, well, you know, I'm covered by law. But respectfully, these are federal orders. If I don't show up, that starts the A W O L process. I learned how long the A W O L process is. And I was like, I don't want to start it because once you get that, you know, that marker by your name, it's hard to bounce back from. And so they really gave me a hard time about it. And I'm going through, you know, I've got my clearance.

• 1:10:41Speaker 01

  I'm doing my drill weekends. I'm working, you know, at the sheriff's office and they just, they really kind of ramped it up and they, they put the pressure on me to where I was back on door assignments. You know, there was all these things that it, it didn't feel like it was malicious, but looking back at it, I realized I was like, this is, they, they don't like the fact that I now have two employers. And all the old army guys, they loved it because they're talking about their time in the army. And now that I'm in the army, I'm a, I'm a full-fledged soldier. And now these guys are like, okay, we're all on the same page. And these guys are like opening up to me about, you know, things that they've done. Some of the guys that had been, uh, um, through Vietnam and some of the older guys, it was just really cool to be a part of that network. Well, there was a guy, um, and I'll tell you his name once we're done shooting, but he was a SEAL.

• 1:11:26Speaker 01

  Uh, I think he was, there's some sort of reserve.

• 1:11:29Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, there's reserve units.

• 1:11:30Speaker 01

  Yeah. And so being that I'm in Virginia, we're right up from, uh, Norfolk and Dam Neck and all of that. And I would always run into him in the gym and he looks at me, he's like, hey, heard you join the army. And I'm like, yeah, he was like, good. And I'm like, well, not ripping from what you said, but he said, he didn't say it like intense, how you said it was more like, good, you know, but he's like, good. He's like, you know, I think the military is great. He said, don't think that the sheriff's office is the only career that you qualify for. A lot of people get into a sheriff's office or a local agency from a town they grew up in and they never leave. He said, if you can travel the world, if you can do whatever you can to get the perfect job, do it. And he had caught caught a lot of heat because he was actually slated for a deployment

• 1:12:12Speaker 01

  shortly after that. And then, once he deployed, I ended up taking a contract with an agency in Northern Virginia. And I was, I was baptized by fire, baptized by fire. I went and doing these, these overseas missions and it was just.

• 1:12:28Jocko Willink?

  So did you leave the sheriff completely?

• 1:12:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:12:31Jocko Willink?

  When you got that contracting job?

• 1:12:32Speaker 01

  I, I went in and after my second kid was born, I submitted my, my paperwork, submitted my two week notice and that same sergeant who was trying to defend me, I came in from paternity leave and I handed him my notice and he's standing there and he reads it and he looks at me, he goes, no, no. And I was like, dude, I was like, what do you mean? No, like we're past that point now. He's like, we can't afford to lose you. I was like, well, y'all don't treat me like that. And he was like, no, no. He's like, he's like, you don't listen. He's like, the people who have it out for you are about to retire and we have.

• 1:13:08Jocko Willink?

  Why do you think people like had it out for you?

• 1:13:11Speaker 01

  I don't know. I don't know if it's because like, a lot of times my humor would get me, would rub people the wrong way. But I've never, I've never cracked a joke to despair. So, well, I have, but not like, not, not like to their face. So like, if I crack jokes, if there's an intense situation, we had a guy who, once we switched over from analog to digital radios, he didn't test his radio. And so because he didn't test his radio, he had some issues. And so that came up while we're in roll call to the point where he's sitting next to me, he and the LT are screaming at each other. He reaches down to take his badge off. He takes his badge off and throws it at our feet. So after the badge comes off, the next thing he goes to take off is his gun belt. Now, I'm sitting next to this person who is a disgruntled employee, who has just essentially quit his job

• 1:13:55Speaker 01

  and thrown his badge at a commanding officer. And now he's going to reach down for his gun belt. So I'm sitting there and I'm watching and I go and we had leather holsters and I unsnap and I'm like, I, I don't want to have to do this. But hey, if there's work to be done, it's got to get done by somebody. And so I unsnap and I was probably, I had halfway, you know, and he luckily kind of changed his trajectory. He took off his belt keepers, took off his belt and threw his gun belt on the ground.

• 1:14:20Jocko Willink?

  But you broke leather.

• 1:14:21Speaker 01

  I did, I did. And keep in mind, I saw what was happening and I was terrified. And so luckily it played out. So then I look over like, while he's walking out the door and I look over to one of the older guys and he's sitting and he's got his gun. Just like, like on his lap, just sitting here like, ready to rock and roll. And I was like, okay, so that tells me I had the right idea. But, you know, I started cracking jokes after that. I was like, and I was like, oh man, if I was an LT, I wouldn't have let that badge hit the ground. I'd have caught it. And so, you know, they didn't like stuff like that. So I think.

• 1:14:52Jocko Willink?

  I was, uh, camping with my family and my son and I, we're at a, at a national park campground. And my son and I, we had these awesome props to Nerf, uh, Nerf, the Nerf company.

• 1:15:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:15:06Jocko Willink?

  The Nerf guns are cool, but the Nerf, they were Nerf laser guns. And they were really, really good. Like they were very accurate. You could shoot someone at like, probably 75 yards, maybe even a hundred yards. And the weapon itself was also the receiver. So when you got shot, it was that gun that got shot. And then after, and every time it shot, it would shake. When you got shot, it would shake. It was very realistic training. And so I was doing that all the time with my kid. I would, I bought so many of those guns. All his friends would be coming over. It was awesome. So we brought them to this camping trip and we're running around and it's like a desert camping area. And so we're out there, you know, like nine in the morning and we're, you know, uh, doing cover and move and maneuvering through, trying to kill each other.

• 1:15:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:15:50Jocko Willink?

  And all of a sudden, like a, a female, like a park ranger.

• 1:15:55Speaker 01

  Oh, man.

• 1:15:55Jocko Willink?

  Is like, she's like, uh, she comes out from like behind someone's camper. And she's got her hand on her weapon and her weapon is like one quarter draw.

• 1:16:06Speaker 01

  Oh my gosh.

• 1:16:07Jocko Willink?

  And she's like, you know, put the weapons down. And I am just like, these are uh, laser pistols. You know, as I'm like slowly moving, but I was like, dang dude.

• 1:16:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:16:16Jocko Willink?

  Imagine getting smoked by a park ranger because you're out there with a Nerf gun.

• 1:16:21Speaker 01

  Hey, not everybody likes to, you know, they don't like the jokes and the playing around.

• 1:16:25Jocko Willink?

  It's getting wild over there. It's getting about to get a little western on that thing. Yeah, that's a scary scenario. You know, some guys like all heated. I mean, that stuff happens.

• 1:16:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:16:33Jocko Willink?

  You know, people get frustrated at work.

• 1:16:35Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:16:35Jocko Willink?

  And that's when the the uh, workplace violence goes down, especially when this guy's already has a.

• 1:16:41Speaker 01

  He's already got, he's already got a gun. Yeah. So it, and at the time I had kind of dove into, I was a volunteer, I was a volunteer instructor for officer survival. Which even now, like I, I ended up instructing that course for 10 years. That was, that was like my.

• 1:16:53Jocko Willink?

  What was the name of the course?

• 1:16:53Speaker 01

  Officer Survival.

• 1:16:54Jocko Willink?

  Got it.

• 1:16:55Speaker 01

  And you dive into these police videos where you see things like this and it happens so fast and it's like you really have to.

• 1:17:02Jocko Willink?

  It's survivor, Officer Survivor, does that include hand to hand? Does that include combatives at all?

• 1:17:07Speaker 01

  It's 100% survival, combatives, hand to hand, your, your decision-making process, everything, you know? You show up to a house and you have a frequent flyer and he, you gotta go in there and he's, he's one of these guys who may be a combat vet. And you see chicken wire on the windows. He's, he's in there for the long haul. You're not shooting gas into that house, you know? So it's like these little things, these pre-flight, they're pre-flight and or pre-fight indicators. You go to arrest, you know, a little Jose from next door and he's got on a cowboy hat, you know, in the Mexican community. If he, if he takes his hat off and sets it down, he's got his hands on his hips, probably gonna fight you.

• 1:17:40Jocko Willink?

  It's on.

• 1:17:40Speaker 01

  And so, you know, so teaching these things, then then also getting these recruits into fights and getting them to go hands-on. Cause I'm telling you, it's very weird to go hands-on with someone you don't know. And you know that you're going hands-on to hold them accountable for something they've done and they know it too. And if they don't want to go to jail, the fight's on. And I've been in my fair share of fights and I've got injuries, but you know, being able to teach that mindset, you might go to a house and have a conversation to where y'all get along and then you might have to shoot this person.

• 1:18:11Speaker 01

  And I've seen it hundreds of times, if not thousands of times throughout my career. And so teaching that, I kind of exposed myself to a lot of these videos that kind of, it, it, it put me on high alert.

• 1:18:20Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:21Speaker 01

  And I wasn't.

• 1:18:22Jocko Willink?

  Those videos are great.

• 1:18:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:18:24Jocko Willink?

  Cause you start to realize patterns and recognize things. So yeah, I've been, I've been always down for watching, whether it's even, even bar fight videos, like any type of videos of violence, you get to learn a lot about it just by watching it. It makes you a lot more aware.

• 1:18:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:18:39Jocko Willink?

  And then, you know, obviously when you train for it, that's one of the biggest things I say about training jujitsu for self-defense for like females is,

• 1:18:49Jocko Willink?

  you know, human beings are not, especially like in America, we're not used to like that level of contact.

• 1:18:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:18:56Jocko Willink?

  So when someone grabs a hold of you, if you're not used to that,

• 1:18:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:18:59Jocko Willink?

  you don't even get over that mental hurdle of like, what is going on right now? Whereas if you're a jujitsu person, like someone grabs you, that's just like another day in the office and we're gonna, okay, this is what's happening. So, to, to get people not only to watch the things, but then to experience them and have them like fight each other and fight other people is, it's just good to go.

• 1:19:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:19:18Jocko Willink?

  Obviously.

• 1:19:20Speaker 01

  Well, I, I know that I, I learned quite a bit and, um, you know, there was a, we had a guy, he was a, he was a frequent flyer. And we ended up having this murder trial that was going on and I was a, I was slated for security for this trial. And they had had a mistrial before and they wanted to make sure they did everything the right way. Well, they bring over this guy, but they bring him along with a guy who's mentally unstable, an inmate who's mentally unstable. So they're in the cell together. The mentally unstable guy has an arraignment, which means he finds out if he's getting a bond or not. The murder guy is waiting for his trial. It's a jury trial. So I had the thought, I was like, if we've had a mistrial before, we should probably put them in separate cells.

• 1:20:01Speaker 01

  Just so that way there's no, there's no issue. And they're like, no, they're both males. They can both stay in the male cell. And I was like, well, the female cell is empty, so we could probably put him in there. And they didn't. So sure enough, we take the arraignment guy into court. He finds out that he's not going home. The judge denied his bond request. So now he's pissed because he knows he's not going home. And they put him back in the cell. And I remember watching him. He was doing, he was doing like this. If you're in jail, and I've learned a lot about jail over the years. Some from the other side of the fence, most of it from the other side of the fence. But he starts doing this. And the second that it registered what he was doing, he just, just wailed on this guy.

• 1:20:43Speaker 01

  Just started like, he, he hit him, he punched him, he hit him with a right. And then the guy fell to the ground, he grabbed his shirt and he's just like wailing on him. So by the time we're able to get in the cell, this guy's been punched three or four times. He's bleeding from the mouth and the nose, he's cussing us all out. The crazy guy is like, you know, if I'm not going home, then nobody's going home. Or I don't know what his mindset was. We get him out, put him in separate cells. Ends up in a mistrial again. And I remember playing that back in my head. He walks in, when he's let back into the cell, they take the handcuffs off. He immediately stares at the guy, he's, you know, people we telegraph. He stares at the guy that he's going back in there with. And then once he stares at him, the guy's just kind of sitting on the end of the bench. That's when he goes, and he goes to his left side. And that's when he starts kind of loosening up. And then he circles around and does his attack.

• 1:21:27Speaker 01

  And so I had a, I had a foot pursuit once, it was on Thanksgiving Day a few years ago. Where a guy did that. He, uh, there's like five people in a car. I think we had, one of the guys had already seen the hand to hand transaction. Guy gets out of the car, uh, long hair, had already given us a false name. He does like this, and then starts. Listen, if you're ever in a conversation and someone, they're looking for an escape. It could be because it's a bad conversation, it could be because they don't want to go to jail. So then he puts his hair in a ponytail. I was like, bro, you don't have to put your hair in a ponytail. None of us like you that much. I was like, you're not that cute with it. You know, cracking jokes, keeping it light.

• 1:22:07Speaker 01

  Well, then he bends down to tie his shoes. The second that he takes a knee, I said, you're about to run, huh? And he ties his shoe and he stands up and he's looking at me. He's like, what are you, what are you talking about? I was like, you're about to take off running. You're gonna try to run from us, huh? I kid you not, this is exactly what he does. He goes, man, I'm not about to-

• 1:22:26Speaker 02

  And he takes off.

• 1:22:27Speaker 01

  He takes off. And he takes that first step. And because I had seen the last direction that he looked, I kind of was like, okay, 50% chance he's gonna run to his right. So he takes that first step and I just wrap him up and we, we fall to the ground and uh, the psychological aspect, I know he's got buddies that are there with him that they're all, they've all been detained at the time. So I start yelling, taser, taser, taser. And I know that they hear taser. None of them want to get tased. I, obviously, I didn't even have time to grab my taser. I'm yelling taser and he stops and lays face down on the ground. I never even drew my taser. And so by this time, uh, there were some park rangers that were across at the Dunkin' Donuts of all places. They come flying over and they get out and, you know, we've got

• 1:23:11Speaker 01

  assistance and we end up finding a bunch of drugs in the car. And the guy ended up getting uh, obstruction. I think, I don't know if they hit him with eluding because he really only took one step. He didn't elude me at all. Um, I don't know if they hit him with eluding or not, but he was like, man, y'all are fast. I was like, brother, I was two steps ahead. And then my coworker goes, man, that was fast. I was like, dude, I knew he was gonna run. And he was like, how? And so then, once I started to be able to articulate and talk about what I saw, I could share that. And, you know, I still had foot pursuits. I still had people that, you know, tried to get away from me or fight me, but, you know, I'm kind of putting that in the toolbox. Um, but that was after my time contracting, doing uh, counterintelligence, counterterrorism. I call it, I call what I was doing, I call it target acquisition

• 1:23:55Speaker 01

  and elimination. It was, it was really cool. It was a lot of time away from home. It was overseas missions. Um, I met, uh, I met a guy, a Marine Corps guy, a Marsoc guy. The first time I ever dealt with anybody from Marsoc, dude was like 6'5", just a large, beautiful man, like flowing hair. It, I mean, dude, dude, it, look, they called him Captain America. And so I was like, that's the perfect name for him. The problem is, is that he was a major. So he hated being called captain. And so I was always one poking the barrel, "Hey, hey, cap." And so, you know, I ruffled some feathers while on that mission. And then I got to a point where, you know, like I said, my wife and I, we had, we had already bought the house. We bought the house in 2008 and we had two kids

• 1:24:39Speaker 01

  and we were just slowly drifting apart. And I said, "Well, my, my law enforcement cert is still good. I can, I can come back from, you know, doing what I'm doing and go right back into law enforcement." And she says, "Would that make you happy?" And I remember saying like, "I'm, I'm not working to be happy. I'm working, you know, to be able to sustain my family. And if me going overseas or me, you know, working on overseas missions means that I'm gonna lose my family, I'm not gonna do that." And so went right back to law enforcement in 2015. And within a year, I had my first law enforcement shooting.

• 1:25:18Speaker 01

  It was October 16th, or excuse me, October 2nd, 2016. And same thing, you know, I remember I left roll call. I, I, at this point, I'd gotten a little complacent. I was on the SWAT team by then. So I felt like, you know, I'm the man. I got this. I remember coming in a roll call and one of my buddies was our sniper. And I go and I was like, "You know what? I had never switched seats in roll call, not once. Every time I go into a roll call in a new squad, I pick a seat that no one's sitting in and that is my seat. It's the first time that I ever switched seats. And I switched seats. It was my first sergeant's last night because he was going up, he got promoted to detective. And we had a brand new sergeant. And so I go in there, I was like, "I'm not sitting where I normally sit. I'm sitting in this is the SWAT section back here."

• 1:26:01Speaker 01

  Like just chip on my shoulder, you know, thinking like, "I got this." And so Sarge says, or first sergeant says, "All right, this is my last night here. Don't y'all stir nothing up." I was like, "Sarge, you got nothing to worry about." Last words. I, I said that. I was like, "You got nothing to worry about." So I leave roll call. Roll call ended, it was from 8 to 8:30. And I leave roll call, go get a coffee. Same thing I always do. Go get a coffee, check in with some of the local, you know, businesses and probably around just before nine o'clock, my buddy makes a stop on a car and I, they run the driver. Driver's got like 12 felony warrants. So he's like, all right, I'm going to detain the driver, give me, you know, give me some backup. So I go over there, I'm the, I was the first one there and the driver completely cool.

• 1:26:45Speaker 01

  No issues like, yeah, no, I got warrants, blah, blah, blah. I'm like, well, you, these are drug related. Do you have anything in the car? He's like, no, there's nothing in the car. It's completely clean. So get him in handcuffs. My buddy, Matt, he says, hey, go check, there's a passenger in the front seat of that van. Go check, go check the passenger. He's like, we just got to detain him. If the driver wants to release the van, we can release it to him, but we have to search it. We're going through the, you know, it's narcotics protocol. So I go and I'm talking to the driver and I'm like, all right, which, you know, you got an ID? He's like, nope, no ID. That's clue number one, no ID. Wait, this is the driver or the passenger? This is the passenger. Okay. At this time, I think Matt was interviewing the driver and, uh, cause they're at his. Passenger still in the vehicle? Passenger was still in the vehicle. So I'm up there, uh, I had my old mag light.

• 1:27:28Speaker 01

  You remember those old mag lights? I used to tuck it under my arm because I, I didn't like to have anything in my hands. So he's giving me name, date of birth, and then he gives me, he didn't give me a social, he gave me name, date of birth. They end up running him. He's got some history, but I had an earpiece, so they, he couldn't hear my radio traffic. So come to find out, he lives, or he grew up just a few miles from where I live. And so I'm talking about the county. I'm like, oh yeah, you know, the county's really grown, blah, blah, blah. You got any kids? Just small talk to keep him talking. And he's like, yeah, I got, you know, I got a kid, I got this, and we're just, we're just talking. So I was like, look, the driver's been arrested. I can't verify that you have a license. I was like, if, if you, I was like, what I, what I need you to do is get out of the car. I was like, you don't have any warrants, get out of the car. I'm going to pat you down, make sure you're good to go.

• 1:28:11Speaker 01

  And then you're good to bounce. I was like, can we, can we do that? He was like, oh yeah, no problem. Well, he had some marijuana shake on his shirt. I could identify it just, just out of the blue. And that was never a high priority thing for me because if it's just shake, I'm not going to charge you with possession. That's, that's ridiculous.

• 1:28:28Speaker 01

  So he starts wiping his shirt off because he think, he, he knows I know, but I'm like, dude, I'm not worried about, I'm not worried about weed. Like that, that doesn't matter. I was like, if you're good, I'm just going to pat you down, you'll get out of here. He's like, all right. So he gets out of the car, keep in mind, we're on the passenger side. And I'm watching his body language. I'm looking at his belt line when he gets out. He's got a gray shirt or yeah, gray shirt and red basketball shorts. And he gets out and, but he gets out away from me. He's like backing toward, like backing out of the car. I was like, that was weird. But the dude was like 6'3", 240 pounds. He was a big guy. So maybe that's just what he does if he's got any injuries. So he walks back to the police car. Back in the day, we were teaching cops to put hands on the hood. That was a really big thing that that they taught in the academy. Hands on the hood, put them at a position of disadvantage. Well, if someone is six, three, and then you

• 1:29:12Speaker 01

  got me, who's five, ten and a half, you know, he's still at an advantage because that literally puts me at elbow height. So I would brace the elbow and I would start, I would start on the, I always call it driver's side. Anytime I search anybody, I'm starting on the, on their left side, I'm going to go down the left side and go, my, my goal is to get from the driver's side of the passenger side, going around the, the, the back, the belt line. So driver's side, no issue, nothing. And I get around to passenger side. And I remember I was going across this belt line, you can feel the drawstring inside of basketball shorts. And my hands stopped, I felt immediately what I knew was a gun. In my mind, it was a revolver, I could see it,

• 1:29:53Speaker 01

  like, once I touched it, I could see it. And so, split second, I froze, Matt's watching my body language. Matt yells, gun. Right when Matt yells, gun, it triggers in my mind, oh, yeah, this is a gun. You should probably do something. So, right when he said, gun, keep in mind, I had my hand braced on his elbow, he draws his elbow in, and he punches me right in my temple. And I didn't know it at the time, but it echoed across the parking lot. He hit me hard. And I had taken a few hits at this time, so I kind of built up, you know, a little bit, but I think that's probably the hardest I've been hit in, well, at that time, but in recent years, that was, that was really hard. So I remember stumbling

• 1:30:36Speaker 01

  back and my eyes started to water. And all I saw was him take off running, and his hands were in front of him. I get on the radio, I literally, I've only ever listened to the, the transcript, I've listened to the recording, maybe once or twice. I actually saw it pop up on TikTok, of all things, like, you know, people will pull up police videos and dashcam videos, and I saw it pop up on, on TikTok one time, and it, it threw me off. But I said, one runner with a gun. And so, I know the canine had just pulled up on scene, and I have this weird relationship with police canines, where they don't like me, and I don't really like them. So I know that if I'm moving, if I'm chasing him, the dog is going to focus on me. So I run around the back of the car as I'm drawing my gun and the dog goes in front

• 1:31:20Speaker 01

  of me and the dog runs and so now we're all chasing. The K-9 handler, the dog and I were chasing and he's running directly towards these town homes. Now, the week before, I'd gotten a call at these town homes where some kids had gotten in trouble for, I don't know, making noise or something. So I know there's a ton of kids in these houses and this guy's running straight for them. And so the guy ends up, he's probably 15, 20 yards ahead of me, he ends up turning around and just boom, boom, boom, boom. And all I remember was after the first shot, it was so loud because this was like a courtyard area, there's town homes on this side and this side and then on the front of us and there's a small break, all of that sound and it was fired right at me.

• 1:32:02Speaker 01

  So then I start hearing like the, it's like a buzzing sound. Keep in mind, at this point, I've never, I, nobody ever explained getting shot at with like a buzz and like a snap sound. So I'm hearing it and I, I, well, I started to slow down, but then I dove like, so I'm like in this prone position diving. I don't know how, somehow the suspect ended up with a hole in his leg, it's a whole long thing, you know, it's really weird how that happened, but uh, he ends up running into the woods and uh, I'm, I'm, I'm still laying on the ground and I'm like, I check my mags, I'm good, I'm good on my mags, I'm good on ammo. I call out, I call out my buddy, Matt, you good? I hear him say, he's good.

• 1:32:45Speaker 01

  So I backpedal to the car and when I get back to the car, I see blood all over the ground. And I was like, I'm not looking down because if I am shot and I feel it or I see it, I'm gonna feel it. I was like, I'd rather just feel it. So I'm doing these sweeps, so I check my, you know, my, my legs, check my femoral first, check my body and, and while I'm doing this, I can't hear anything that's going on around me. My vision is like through a soda straw, it's like completely locked into where the last point that I saw him and I can't hear anything. And so I'm doing this and I grab my rifle, I had this old, uh, this Colt M4 commando, which was my SWAT rifle. So I got that, so now I'm at the back of my car. And they're calling me on the radio. I got guys showing up on scene yelling my name and, and I can't, I'm not responding.

• 1:33:27Speaker 01

  And so my buddy, he says, he came up to car. He's like, dude, it looked like you were beating your meat when I pulled up. He said, cause you just kept doing this. And I was so focused on making sure I wasn't shot. And I'm sitting there. I got my rifle kind of tucked and I'm behind the trunk of my car and I'm just checking. And I didn't hear a word until he touched my shoulder. And when he touched my shoulder, it was like vision opened up. It's like I was hearing for the first time. I could hear sirens. I could hear dogs barking. I could hear all this stuff going on around me. I could smell the air like I get like this, this life-changing event has just occurred. And now it's like, I went from being in it to now I'm watching it. And so, um, come to find out, I wasn't shot, but the guy actually shot the canine.

• 1:34:08Speaker 01

  Shot the canine and the canine, uh, ran off and then they recalled it. It came back and it ran through that area where my car was. And so, uh, I, I remember coming back to my car. They said, all right, are you okay? I said, yeah, I'm fine. They're like, all right, we're going to bring in another canine. We're going to do a canine track. We need you to track. Well, they didn't know, I didn't say what I had done. I didn't mention any of the actions I had taken. I didn't mention getting punched in the face or anything like that. I just said I was okay. So now I'm on this canine track and while we're in the woods following this blood trail, I, I started to get dizzy. And I was like, dude, I can't do this. He was like, what are you scared? I was like, no, the, the guy punched me before he tried to shoot me. The canine handler goes, that was you? I said, yeah. He gets on the radio.

• 1:34:53Speaker 01

  They come down, they grab me by the arm, escort me to the ambulance. And they're like, you have to get checked out because you just got punched in the head and we can't afford having you out here passing out or anything. So I get in there, they take my gun belt. And I'm sitting back there and I'll never forget, uh, I'm just staring at the wall, trying to, trying to put together the pieces of what had just happened. And one of the EMTs cracks a joke. I don't know what the joke was, but he, he made it as though this was a lighthearted situation. And I didn't say a word. I just stared at him. And my supervisor was in the ambulance with me, says, get him out of here now. And I didn't know what was going on. Of course, I'm in my own world, but they think that I'm like going full rage mode and I'm about to just tear up the back of this ambulance.

• 1:35:36Jocko Willink?

  Who's the comedian now?

• 1:35:37Speaker 01

  Exactly. So this is what my leadership has been experiencing. No, uh, but, uh, so yeah, it just, it was, it was this whole thing to where I had to remain on scene. I was seen by medical. Uh, the sheriff came out and came over to me and, and, and gave me some encouragement and I was like, where, where do I go from here? You know, what like, do I, do I have to like, this is the beginning of my shift? Do I go back to work? Do I have to go sit at the office? Are we doing my interview tonight? And so my supervisor came over and he kind of like shakes my hand, give me like a little hug and he's like, hey, you, you, you did the right thing. He was like, um, we're gonna, we're gonna get you and some of the other guys in here. Everyone that was involved with this call, we're gonna send you guys home tonight. He said, when you go home,

• 1:36:18Speaker 01

  don't get on social media, don't get on Facebook, just go home, get a night's rest. He said, call me in the morning. We're gonna have you come back at some point, um, to do your interview. I said, okay.

• 1:36:29Speaker 01

  So I still didn't fully have my adrenaline dump because this is my first like-

• 1:36:32Jocko Willink?

  Did they catch the guy?

• 1:36:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, they ended, they ended up catching him, but it was like a week later. He ended up, yeah, he, he ended up, um, he was able to get to a phone to call his baby mama. I'll, I'll, I'll get into more of that because that also it kind of, there was some stuff that went along with that as well. Um, but, uh, so I go home and I remember, uh, I walk in the door and my wife, I, I was on midnight shift for like eight years. I walk in the door and she sits up at a bed. She goes, oh, you scared me. You're home. I was like, yeah, I was like, you know, there's a lot of stuff that went down at the office. I didn't have the heart to tell her because I was still processing. I was, there's a lot of stuff that went down at the office. I was like, uh, they sent me home. I'm gonna, I'll probably go in for day shift tomorrow. She goes, okay, can you check on the kids? And I was like, all right, I'll check on the kids. So I check on the kids and I go sit at the end of the bed.

• 1:37:30Jocko Willink?

  Well, you gotta check on the kids. That's the way it goes.

• 1:37:48Speaker 01

  Jeez.

• 1:37:50Speaker 01

  I called my dad.

• 1:37:59Speaker 01

  Dad said, "Did you get him?"

• 1:38:05Speaker 01

  Oh, man. I called my dad and told him what happened. My dad has this thing where he doesn't call me by my name. He calls me "boy." He's like, "Boy?" He said, "Did you get him?" I said, "No, he's still out there." He's like, "No, did you get him?" I was like, "Yeah, he got got." He goes, "Did he get you?" I said, "No, sir." He said, "Well, now all you gotta do is keep on living." And...

• 1:38:33Speaker 01

  I was like, "Man, like, I had done these missions." I had, you know, worked on these overseas missions and all this stuff had gone on and all this stuff that I've been through. But at the end of those, I didn't come to my house and check on my kids. I didn't come to my house

• 1:38:50Speaker 01

  and see my wife. I didn't see my family after those things. That was, you know, "Job's finished. Good job, guys. Attaboy. Pat on the back." "You get to go home. You go home." Whereas for this was, this just happened within the last few hours. Now I'm at home. And it just, dude, it all hit me, like, at once. I think I went three or four days with no sleep. Like, it just... The idea that that was 15 miles from my house and that could have been my last day, like, it really... It affected me. And I didn't know that it affected me.

• 1:39:30Speaker 01

  And so, uh, the guy, like I said, he ended up getting away and, um, I didn't know the, they brought in the marshal's task force was on, was on the case and they found him. And when they found him, he was, he was in a hotel room, he still had the gun. He had done this makeshift tourniquet, kudos to the guy, makeshift tourniquet around his leg. And, uh, they went in, they got him and my buddy took a picture of the warrant and, uh,

• 1:40:07Speaker 01

  I was, I was listed as a victim of attempted capital murder.

• 1:40:15Speaker 02

  Gosh.

• 1:40:24Jocko Willink?

  Well, strong emphasis on attempted.

• 1:40:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:40:27Jocko Willink?

  We'll take that, right?

• 1:40:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, uh, seeing my name and, and seeing, you know, he ended up getting, I think he got, he got a few other warrants, cause, uh, at the time, uh, that case was what changed the case law for police canines, because at then, back then it was just destruction of property. But seeing my name as a victim, like, you know, and the code spelled out, you know, it was, it was insane. And I went through the whole cycle of emotions all over again once I saw that. And then I went in to do my interview and you do your admin interview, then you have to do a criminal interview. So admin interview, it's for record keeping purposes, you know, you don't have to give the interview, but I didn't know this at

• 1:41:11Speaker 01

  the time. And so I do the interview, detectives walk out, they walk back in. Well, then they read you Garrity. Essentially, when they read you Garrity, it's them reading you your rights. And I got, I was furious. I was like, You read someone their rights before you interrogate. And they were like, you know, having these rights in mind, you wish to speak to us and everything else. I was like, I'll, I'll talk. I was like, I got nothing to hide. So I, I did that. And then the case kind of dragged on for a little bit. And I got some time off. I went to SWAT school. It was a two week school. And it was a great time. It was, I mean, I learned so much. There was a, an old retired Navy SEAL that, that taught the class.

• 1:41:55Speaker 01

  He was out of Dahlgren, Dahlgren Naval Base. And just a phenomenal course, great group of guys. And I really, you know, got that camaraderie. And I was able, even though I wasn't able to work with my squad because I was still on admin leave, I got that camaraderie by being in a, in a school. And so went through, went through all of that. And then by the time I came back to work, I had no clue that it impacted me until it was probably two or three weeks later. I came back to work and I was not proactive. I wasn't motivated. I wasn't doing anything. And I had a conversation with one of the supervisors and I was like, oh, well, that's my one traffic stop for the night.

• 1:42:31Speaker 01

  And he called me out. He was like, what? He was like, you've never been a bare minimum kind of guy. What is going on? And so I was like, oh, nothing. Just, you know, just life, just, you know, busy, just stuff going on. So later in the night, when things kind of die down, because the shift kind of happens in waves, when things kind of die down. He calls me and says, hey, come over to the parking lot over next to the Pizza Hut. I want to talk to you real quick. So I go over there and he goes, hey, just out of the blue, he said, did they give you any mental health resources after your incident? I was like, no. He was like, did you talk to any mental health professionals or anybody, you know, regarding the incident? I was like, no, dude, I, I went home. I was on administrative leave. I went to SWAT school and then I came back and now I'm here.

• 1:43:15Speaker 01

  And he's like, all right. And so he reaches in his console. He writes a number on a card. He's like, listen. He's like, I think that your incident has impacted you in ways that you don't understand.

• 1:43:27Speaker 01

  I was like, what are you talking about? I'm good. I'm not hurt. He's like, no, no, no. He said, I think it's impacted you in ways that you don't understand. He said, here, give this person a call. It was the emotional assistance program or whatever we had for the office. He said, give this person a call and, you know, just have a conversation. I was like, all right, all right. Roger, Sarge, I'll do it. So I put it in the console, didn't think anything about it. And then it was probably, I don't know, maybe another week or so that I was, I was at home. It was nighttime. I was a day off, so I'm up at night while my family's sleeping and I'm sitting there at the dining room table and I'm just racking my brain like, what, what did he mean by that? What did he mean by it might have impacted you in ways that you didn't understand or don't understand? What, what could he possibly mean?

• 1:44:11Speaker 01

  So I grabbed that card, I went to the car and got the card and I'm sitting there looking at it and I was like, man, I'm not, I'm not calling these people. I'm tougher than that. And then I was like, well, you can still be tough and make the phone call. You can, you can still, you know, you can do both. And so I grabbed it and I called and he asked me about, you know, what I had dealt with. And I told him about the incident and then he goes, so how's the weather where you live? Cause this was like, obviously you phoned in and it could be anybody, any therapist anywhere. How's the weather where you live? And we started talking about the weather and we started talking about my house and cause we moved into that house. Yeah, no, we had, we were moving into a new house coming up and he's asking about the

• 1:44:54Speaker 01

  weather, started talking about the house, talking about everything that was going on in life. And he goes, well, it sounds like, you know, you gotta, you got a lot going on. He was like, do you ever get overwhelmed by all of it? I was like, oh yeah, all the time. And he's like, well, maybe you should think about taking, you know, a day where you and your family don't do anything but spend time together. And like all these things, it's, it's, it's a benefit. You know, the Bible says a man who finds a wife finds a good thing. It's, she's a good thing. How dare I not spend time with her and just relax or just have coffee on the porch? So I started, I started kind of doing that. And slowly but surely, she was like, yeah, I think it affected you, but you, you know, you seem fine, but you might still dwell on it. And I was like, well, I do kind of, I was like, sometimes I have dreams about it and you know, no big deal. She was like,

• 1:45:39Speaker 01

  I, I think, I think you have PTSD. And keep in mind at this time. This was like the counselor on the phone? This is my wife saying this. Oh, your wife was saying this? My wife was a psych major. She's got a master. So she knew what was what? Yeah. And so this is after all of the fights, the pursuits, the, you know, the, the, the times that I had to kind of overcome my own fear, you know, I was a breacher on the SWAT team for years and there were days I was terrified, but there's a job that had to be done. So all this stuff had kind of bottled itself up and I never used to talk about it. That day, that the day she said that, I kind of looked up some of the, you know, some of the side effects and everything else. From then on, at the end of my shift,

• 1:46:21Speaker 01

  like if whether I was on midnight shift, day shift, evening shift, I would call my wife and we'd debrief the entire shift. I did that every shift. I still do that now. But I would call her and be like, oh man, you're never gonna believe what happened today. Just by me talking about it, instead of like, oh, I'm hiding it from her to protect her, it was detrimental to me and I had no clues. I'm sitting here on a time bomb. And so just by me sharing that with her, now my wife and I have longer conversations, which means we spend more time together, which means the support that I give her, she now gives me in return. And things just really, really grew from there and it really, as much as, as much as I hated to say it at the time, it enhanced my relationship. And, um, so

• 1:47:02Speaker 01

  then I went from there, uh, did a bunch of really cool SWAT callouts. I'll get into some more cop stories later on, but I ended up tearing my ACL. Uh, it was a partial tear. I was doing a SWAT event and, uh, I think I got injured there and then I came home, showered, put on my uniform and went right back to work and ended up getting into a fight, uh, in the ER parking lot. And the same ER where I worked security back in the day. Damn. Getting into a fight in the parking lot and of course you're like, I get the guy, but he, you know, he, I was hurting. And so I left there, went back to the, back to my zone, my patrol zone and, uh, um, I went on another call with another, another deputy, one of the guys that I had trained and I'm limping up the driveway. He was like, dude,

• 1:47:46Speaker 01

  he's like, you can't, you can't go up there and knock on this door. You're limping. I was like, bro, it's fine.

• 1:47:52Speaker 01

  Knocked on the door, handled the call, no issue. He was like, I'm calling the supervisor, you have to go, you have to go to the hospital. And so he calls supervisor, supervisor calls me, he's like, hey, you gotta go to the hospital. So I go to the hospital and this is another, a separate hospital. And the doctor there, some of the ER staff knew me because I had brought so many people in from different calls and everything else. And she checks my knee and she's like, you tore your ACL. I was like, there's no way if I tore my ACL, I wouldn't be able to walk. She was like, what's your pain level? I was like, high? She was like, can you walk fast? No. And she just looks at me, like, kinda how like your mom looks at you if you do the wrong thing, she's like. And so, so I tore my ACL and ended up dealing with that.

• 1:48:35Speaker 01

  I said, well, if I have to get the surgery, if whatever I have to do, I'll do what it takes to come back to work. And so I opted to not get the surgery because the doctor was like, look, you can do physical therapy, but it's gonna take a while. So I was like, I'm, at that time, I wasn't as anti-doctor, anti-big pharma, anti-big medicine as I am now, but I was like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, it's dude, it's conspiracy theater in my house, we're all on the same page, it's wild. But, so I go through and they kept me on light duty, which immediately cut my hours, which cut my pay. And I was trying my hardest to come back to work. And one of the higher ups ended up calling me into the office and he was like, I think you're lying about your injury. Now, I told you, I'm not a liar, I don't like being called a liar.

• 1:49:20Speaker 01

  And so we exchanged words, I left his office and immediately applied to transfer to the next agency over, where I had taught a bunch of their people in the regional academy, I had a solid network there, I had gone to academy with guys from that agency. And I applied there and by February, the following year, I was hired on at that agency. And then, within, within five years of my first shooting, I had my second one. Which, it was, it was a little different, but this, this agency was completely different than where I had ever worked before. Higher call volume, there's a lot more going on, you're seeing and doing a lot more. And at some point, my brother, he ended up moving up to Massachusetts and I was like, hey, you should come down and do a ride along.

• 1:50:05Speaker 01

  I was like, I've been doing this for years, you've never done a ride along, you should come do one, it's not that bad. So he comes down and he does a ride along. Sure enough, it was the busiest night, outside of my shootings, it was the busiest night that I've ever had. There was, I ended up with a DUI stop, which they take forever. I ended up with homicide robbery, where I was first on scene. I end up with, I had another domestic violence that turned into a robbery slash foot pursuit. And by the time we did all these things, my brother looks at me and goes, I want to go home. And I was like, relax, big dog. We got Chick-fil-A for breakfast. You're going home. But this agency, it's, it's kind of, I learned a little

• 1:50:45Speaker 01

  bit more. I realized that I was left eye dominant. I had shot 90% or better, shooting like this. And so I really, I really stepped up my game with shooting. I came off of the SWAT team and focused more on just, you know, my patrol duties. And then I ended up getting promoted. And then I got, well, I got into a shooting, January 17th. I got promoted a few months later, then I got demoted by the end of the year. So it was an interesting year for me. How'd the shooting go down? So I end up having a trainee, or someone, he's, he's a, he had transferred from another agency. They have to do their FTO. So I have to, I have to train him to sign off that he knows our agency policies. This guy had been in law enforcement for 20 years, but

• 1:51:28Speaker 01

  just had a terrible attitude. They were like, you need to get this number of calls and this number of traffic stops in order for us to say you're good. He was like, man, I was, I was head of a traffic unit. I don't have to, bad attitude, terrible tactics as well. So we get a call on January 17th, 2021. It's on a Sunday, and it was at, right around 11, you know, during church time. If you go to the early service at 11, you're getting, you're getting out of church. If you go to the late service, you're in church service. So we get a call and it comes from behind a Chick-fil-A. Like there's a, like a, it's like a, like a storage, but there's like a business center back there. And we get a

• 1:52:11Speaker 01

  call from back there. And they're like, you know, subject to saying that they heard gunshots. And one of the indicators with gunshots is that multiple people will call in. So then calls started rolling in. Well, then a call came in where someone was on the phone whispering like someone shooting outside. When you get a call, when dispatch gets a call that someone's whispering, each call steps it up, but that whispering call steps it up even further. Because that says someone is trying to stay safe while there's an emergency taking place. So I look at my trainee and we were one zone over. I said, we're going to that. I said, turn on your lights and siren. Things are about to get stupid. And that's exactly what I said. Dude, my dash cam videos, I'm not bragging. My dash cam videos are hilarious.

• 1:52:54Speaker 01

  I said, turn on your lights and siren. Things are about to get stupid. I said, do you know where the Chick-fil-A is? He said, yeah. I said, go to the shopping or the business center behind the Chick-fil-A. That's where we're going. And so while we're going there, lights and siren, one of my buddies was the first one on scene. It was his zone. And he gets on the radio and he says shots fired. As he's saying shots fired, I'm hearing shots while we're pulling up on scene. And my biggest fear was that one of my guys, one of my buddies, you know, is down and I'm gonna have to, you know, render aid and try to, you know, be able to affect the threat. And so Brian is, is standing near the hood of a car and he's by himself.

• 1:53:36Speaker 01

  So I remember I looked at the trainee, I grabbed my rifle because my rifles were stowed up top and I'm in the passenger seat. I grabbed my rifle. I said, I don't know where they are. Keep your head on a swivel. That was the last words I ever said to him because he quit right at like that day.

• 1:53:50Speaker 01

  Left, left stuff in my car and everything. But I grabbed my rifle and I ran up to Brian and while I'm there, this guy shot in the, there was a guy shot, I think it was upper chest or maybe middle. He's crawling over and he's like, he's like talking. He's like, uh, like get me. And so I'm like, hey, one, one male shot. I gave the description, the clothing description. Oh, this was a civilian that was shot? Yeah. So, uh, so the guy that shot him,

• 1:54:18Speaker 01

  he shot him and then was going back to his car. He had a full auto rifle that was in his car. So I think he shot two people and was going to get his rifle. And so when I get up to Brian, I said, Brian, I said, like, I told him, I was like, because this is, he's fairly new. A great cop. He's a phenomenal cop. I said, I said, don't look at me. I was like, I'm not going to look at you. Let's keep our eyes on the threat. I said, but you need to help that guy that's down. You need to help that guy that's been shot. And he goes, okay. I said, do you have a chest seal? And I asked him if he had his blowout kit. If you have your med kit, he said, I have my med kit. I was like, you need to help that guy now. I said, pull him to the side of the building, start rendering aid. I said, the cavalry is coming. We're good. And so I'm looking at, there's a guy on the ground. Did Brian have his long gun out too? No. So that's why yours is like, I got this.

• 1:55:00Speaker 01

  Yeah. So there was another guy that had been shot that was just kind of like sitting on the ground. Well, that was the shooter. That was the shooter, but he had gotten shot. So he just kind of fell down. He's sitting on the ground. And so I'm sitting there and I've got my rifle and I was like, I'm not saying a word. I'm not going to say a word. There's other deputies here. They can give commands. I am taking lethal action. I was like, he's not going to get a shot off. I was like, I'm not getting shot at again. First of all, my wife would be pissed because I told her it wouldn't happen again, which is stupid. That's a stupid thing to say, but this one I had, I had the absolute mindset like this guy is not going to shoot another person. This guy is not going to grab that gun. If he makes a move, then I'm making mine. And I remember standing there and then I hear like this heavy breathing.

• 1:55:45Speaker 01

  Well, keep in mind, there's commotion behind me because there's another guy that's like, we didn't want the police. We wanted the ambulance. And he's like going off and I'm like yelling, I'm like, Brian, shut him up now. And so then I hear this heavy breathing and I see a pistol right by my head. And my first sergeant, I'm not going to say his name. He's like, I'm here. What do you need? I don't know how far away he parked, but this dude was moving. And I was like, okay, if we shoot this guy, I don't want this pistol to deafen me because I already got some hearing loss. I don't want, so I said, I said, I said, go help Brian. I said, there's a shield in my trunk. Go to my car. He's like, I'm on it, thinking that that's going to occupy him long enough for us to take action. The dude, I mean, I don't know what his adrenaline level was, but he was like, all right, I'm on it.

• 1:56:30Speaker 01

  I'm back. That's how quick it was.

• 1:56:33Speaker 01

  And he was a bigger guy and I mean, we always, we joke with him now about how fast he ran. But he comes back, I said, alright. What's the distance to the shooter? I was probably 15 yards from him. And I've got, I've got cover behind a vehicle. And I mean, it's just the, the whole thing, the way it played out was that we ended up getting more deputies on scene and I didn't know it, but I heard other, I heard my buddy Jimmy giving commands. So I'm, so if you're the bad guy, I'm facing you, they, we had an L shape. So they ended up coming, there were two other guys that were covering down. It was my buddy Jimmy and then my buddy Bo was on the other side. And they're rendering aid, all hell's breaking loose because the building that they came out of, there was a party going on. It was like a cookout or something. There's people that are watching this play out and so it's commotion, it's pandemonium.

• 1:57:20Speaker 01

  And so I calmed myself and I just.

• 1:57:24Speaker 01

  And in my mind, I'm like, okay, there's at least one person shot. Uh, one, you know, civilian shot, possibly two, bad guy's been shot. I know he's got a handgun. I know he's got a rifle in the car. He can't make it to the car. So I'm just sitting there and I'm just like, I'm not saying a word. They're giving commands. Sir, don't reach for the gun. Don't reach for the gun. And I think, you know, you've heard of like sympathetic fire where when somebody does something on a scene like that, you do it. So I, he looks, the dude turns and looks right at me. And he has this scowl on his face. And he's just like staring at me, like staring through my soul. And I'm like, and in my mind, I'm like, I'm just looking at him like, don't do it. Don't do it. I was like, I, I never want to be in this situation. And I'm like, just don't, just don't do it.

• 1:58:07Speaker 01

  Then he looks back like down where the gun is, cause he had a, so he was wearing a holster, but there was also a gun on the ground.

• 1:58:14Speaker 01

  And he looks at the gun and I'm like, in my mind, something told me, it was like, he's, he's gonna reach. And I kind of regret like, from that standpoint, I was still thinking two and three steps ahead and I was like, I could have a justified shooting and still be sued if I don't shoot within the parameters of my training. What do we train for? Center mass. I'm not, initially I had my, I had my dot on this dude's forehead. I was like, he is not, there's no way he's killing or shooting anybody else. And in that like split second, I said, nope, that's a lawsuit. Shoot him in the stomach. And sure enough, he goes to reach for the gun and I shot him. And I saw my rounds hit him.

• 1:58:57Speaker 01

  Um, I had, I, so we were running, I was running P mags at the time. My duty mags, I would only stack up to about 25 rounds. I wouldn't, I wouldn't fill them all the way up. And I had them marked. Um, but when I rotated my selector from safe to semi, I heard the click outside of all the commotion. I heard the click. I didn't hear my own gunshots. And then I see my rounds hit him. I see his clothing move. And then like this stream of like dark brown, like dark, like it was, it probably, probably hit his stomach. It flows out and I remember thinking like, and I'm standing there still looking down my sight and I'm like, that's disgusting. And the guy like doesn't go for the gun. He goes to, the tough dude goes to start crawling away. I give him the once over. I was like, now's our time to run up on him.

• 1:59:41Speaker 01

  And so we go running up there and grabbed his hands, threw the cuffs on. Um, I had a little fixed, uh, fixed blade that I kept on me. I cut his pants off. We start patching them up. And I was so thankful that my buddy Jimmy was a former medic because I'm like, you know, the basic, oh, put a seal on this. Put a seal on this, pack this with gauze, wrap. Uh, we're doing all the basics, but this was so much more elaborate than that. Uh, cause I didn't realize how many times a dude had been shot. And so, uh, Jimmy goes, all right, we need to roll him over. And I'm like, all right, cool. No problem. So I go to roll him over. You ever seen Jaws when they realize how big Jaws is? When I rolled him over and this is on my, my body cam, I literally said out loud, we're going to need a bigger boat. Nobody on scene caught the reference.

• 2:00:26Speaker 01

  Nobody knew what the heck I was talking about, but what I was saying was like, I can't fix these exit wounds. These are too massive. And at this time, like again, I had blood all over me and you could start to smell, uh, Jimmy shot him in the butthole. He was, he called it a Texas heart shot. I, uh, when the guy started to crawl or when the guy returned over to reach, he shot him in the, in the butthole. It was really weird, but, uh, so by this time I see the cavalry showing up, the, the medics are coming up. There's other deputies coming up and the captain comes over to me and goes, who shot? I said, I did. He said, I need your guns.

• 2:00:59Speaker 01

  This is an active scene. He takes my guns, he says, he says, go over there. He gives me an escort, says, go stand by that car. You have to wait. And so I go wait and everything cools down. They're like, all right, we're gonna start the admin portion, which is completely different. My, my first shooting, I was complacent. My guard was down. This shooting, I kinda had an idea of what it was before I ever headed in that direction. So now my demeanor is just a little different. So Brian asked me, he's like, dude, what, what do I do? I said, well, there's gonna be stuff on social media. I said, call your wife, say a bunch of stuff went down at work, just know squad's good. Just say it like that. I said, don't give her detail, cuz she's gonna worry all day long. Tell her the squad's good. I did the same thing, I called my wife, I said, hey babe, I was like, what are y'all up to? And I always try to, I always throw out that question to kinda, you know, get her, let her guard down a little bit. What are y'all up to? Oh, I'm doing such and such.

• 2:01:44Speaker 01

  I was like, okay. I was like, yeah, we got a bunch of crazy stuff going on at work. I was like, we're all good, but I'm probably gonna have to work late. She was like, again? I was like, yeah, I was like, but it's no big deal. She's like, all right, well, what do you want me to make for dinner? And I was like, oh geez, uh. I don't know. And I'm like, sitting here. And my response on the back end of just shooting a person is way different than what it was the first time. And I, I, I attribute a lot of that to some of the, just the, the mental toughness and, and resiliency that I built over time through talking to someone and getting it off my chest, but because I wasn't complacent. And so, you know, we talk, and so I end up going back to the office. And they put us all in the same room. And I said, I called LT, I was like, LT, I was like, we're not supposed to be in the same room. I was like, this, this is not supposed to happen like this.

• 2:02:30Speaker 01

  Like, we, we can't, cuz we're in there talking, like, and I'm, these are my boys. So I'm like, hey, y'all good? Like, you know? And, uh, it was just really cool because we had this time to like, interact before they were like, wait, wait, you guys have to be separate. So then they separated us and, um, my buddy Kevin, uh, who went through the academy with, was my escort. So we go into a separate office, LT comes in, was like, what do y'all want? I was like, pizza, I want, uh, pepperoni, bacon and jalapenos, and I'd also like a Dr. Pepper, please. And so I was like, I'm on it. And he goes running down the hall. And so he brings, they end up delivering food and they bring us food. And I'm sitting there, we're kinda reminiscing and I'm just talking to Kevin about, cuz he was an MP in the army. So we're talking about army stuff and we're talking about, you know, some of the, uh, overseas missions. And it was just really cool. And I was like, Kev, I was like, you think they'll mind if I take my gun belt off? I was like, it's kinda uncomfortable sitting in these seats.

• 2:03:15Speaker 01

  So I was like, I, I know I'm gonna be here for a while. He's like, yeah, you can take it off. He's like, just set it on, uh, my cubicle, which is back, it's out of, it's out of sight. So that way, it's not just sitting out here. And remember I told you about my, my humor? I've, I've got, I've got dark humor and it's, it's, it's situationally dependent. And I would never kind of crack this joke around an audience that I didn't know.

• 2:03:39Speaker 01

  But I take my belt off and I go over to Kev's cubicle. So I'm out of line of sight. I was like, hey Kev, what if I just ended it all right now? And man, Kev came, Kev was a wrestler. Kev in wrestling and jujitsu, Kev came running around and immediately came over and like, it was like about the grave. I was like, I was like, I'm, I'm not. He's like, dude. He was like, don't joke like that. I was like, my, my bad dog. Like I'm, they used to call me Dennis the Menace. I was like, it's, it's because I'm a menace. I was like, I apologize. So we go sit down and I go to do my interview and I go into the interview room and the detective comes in and immediately when the door closes, I have this adrenaline dump. And everything that I had done, I was like, if I had gone left instead of right, if I had gone over here,

• 2:04:23Speaker 01

  if I had gone, because initially I didn't know the guy had a gun on him. So I was like, if I had just run in to try to grab him and I had this adrenaline dump and I remember standing there and of course I'm a little older at this time. And I don't drink energy drinks, but if I do, I get the shakes and it's like, it's like a Tom Hanks in Saving Private Ryan. I get, I get the, and so I get that and the detective's like, are you okay? I was like, yeah, this is how my body regulates itself. It's kind of a pain, but it's, it's got to run its course. I'm good. So go through my interview and at the end of the interview, the detective goes, oh, we put together some resources for you and your wife. I'm like, this is unheard of. The last one was like, hey, good job, son. Go on home.

• 2:05:04Speaker 01

  This one, they put together a whole binder, like a law enforcement and law enforcement spouse specific binder of resources. And I went home, told my wife what happened. She was like, oh, you know, again, like she was, she kind of, she kind of disappointed, but she was like, well, how do you feel about it? And I told her, I was like, I did so much better this time. I said, because of the things that I got from last time. So we go through the binder and we do like, it's got like activities and conversation things, you know, like conversation prompts that you can do. And we did that. Come to find out that the guy lived and in Virginia, they have three years to sue you and the clock started from day one. So now I'm on administrative leave.

• 2:05:44Speaker 01

  I get a call from the sheriff and I've known, I've known the sheriff from well before I started working there and he used to go to, we used to go to the same gym. And he's talking, he's like, look, man, he's like, don't second guess yourself. You guys did the absolute right thing. He's like, there's not, he's like, there's no one else that I would have rather had handle that call than the group of guys that handled that call. He said, you guys were professional. He said, you guys didn't waste any time. He said, in further, you didn't give that guy any leeway to hurt anybody else. Cause the guy that he shot ended up dying. Come to find out it was, it was headed towards an active shooter. I don't think it counts as an active shooter. He shot two people. One of them died.

• 2:06:18Jocko Willink?

  Sounds pretty active to me.

• 2:06:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, but he was really reassuring. And part of the, you know, still there was some out of touch leadership because I had another person in leadership that called me. I was like, oh, I've never shot anybody, but I've had my finger on the trigger several times. And I'm like, dude, I don't, I don't want to talk to you right now. It's like if someone comes to you and says, oh, I, I finished basic training so we can, I can relate to you with SEAL stuff. You can't, you can't, there's, there's no, there's no correlation there. And there's, and so I really, it kind of upset me because I'm like, why, why are we talking? And so he talked the majority of the conversation. I said, yes, sir. I'm good. We ended the conversation. Um, which that same person in leadership actually came to teach a breacher course to the patrol units.

• 2:07:01Speaker 01

  Here I am, SWAT team breacher. Uh, I was in an engineer battalion before that, you know? And here I am with, with this experience with breaching and he's like, you know, he's holding up a, he's holding up a halogen and he's like, uh, so what you want to do is you, you look for the hinges and then, and I'm, and I'm just sitting there and I'm like, and he's like, of course I can teach this class because I'm, I'm in leadership. I'm a lieutenant. I can teach this class. And I'm like,

• 2:07:27Speaker 01

  so it was, it was that same guy and, and I'm just like, you know what? I get it. On, on paper, paperwork, you're, you're the guy. I was like, but as far as like person to person, you know, and I had the sheriff called me. He's like, hey, I can't relate, but you know, I've known you for a while. I just need to know you're good. And so it, it really showed me like, My, my leadership and just the diversity and how the different approaches and different leadership styles. Um, but, uh, I, I made it through that and then, uh, then got promoted. And then, uh, I can't really talk about the demotion. Um, but if you ever do send out a group chat or a group message, make sure that people who have common last names, make sure it's the right person. That's what I'll leave it at that. Uh, got demoted, moved to evening shift and, uh,

• 2:08:12Speaker 01

  Damn. Must've been a real good zinger. Yeah. And then after I got demoted, check this out. I get the, uh, the highest award in the county, which was the Medal of Valor. I get the Medal of Valor. So I'm at my Medal of Valor ceremony and they had to redo my plaque because initially it said Sergeant, but then they had to, to switch it. So, um, but yeah, that's, that, that was my, uh, that was, that was a big moment for me because, uh, even though we did have to take action, I saw it as a victory, not just because of what happened, but because of how it was handled afterwards. And, uh, it just, you know, it kinda, kinda rode that out for a little while. And, um, I don't know. It's just, it's been a weird, weird journey that I've taken and, uh, some good, some bad, some ugly, mostly, mostly ugly, but most, uh, a lot of good, a lot of good in there.

• 2:08:58Speaker 01

  So then at what point did you start doing social media type stuff? So I started, um, so when I tore my ACL, um, I had bought a camera when my first kid was born. Um, I bought it from the PX. It was like 200 bucks. It was a DSLR camera. It was, it was my first like non, just like point shoot camera. And so while I was, while I was on light duty or while I was on no duty at all, I'd stay up at night and watch videos on how to learn. I just typed in, how do I use my camera? And then that led me to, you know, these YouTubers who not only do photography, but they do video. So I started, started shooting with this camera and I told my wife, I was like, Hey, I think I want to do photography, like as an outlet. And she was like, well, that's a lot better than going and spending all your time at the gym. And I was like, I'm still gonna, still

• 2:09:42Speaker 01

  gonna lift weights, but, um, so I dove into this. And I started shooting and I was like, I told her, I said, I'm gonna start a photography Instagram. And through that photography Instagram, I linked up with some other veterans, some veteran street photography groups, like around when, well, COVID was still kind of a thing. Got into doing street photography and this was a little bit before the shooting that I started getting into street photography. And I loved it because I could just meet with a group of guys, other guys that were veterans and veterans of law enforcement.

• 2:10:12Jocko Willink?

  What is, what is street photography?

• 2:10:14Speaker 01

  So, street photography, you go out into a city, urban area, or whatever setting you want to, and you create your shot. You find a subject. So, it's not necessarily you setting something on a table and saying, I'm gonna take a photo of this. It's you going out and, you know, you shoot strangers, you shoot events. And my thing was, I like to chase shadows and light.

• 2:10:34Jocko Willink?

  I just did that in New York City. Did you see my street photography I did in New York City? That's what I'm Charles?

• 2:10:38Speaker 02

  You're very talented.

• 2:10:39Jocko Willink?

  Props or what?

• 2:10:40Speaker 01

  Certified.

• 2:10:40Jocko Willink?

  Props, no props? But people, and I was putting, just like, what? In the, the caption, I was just like putting like thoughts in, in my head about what those pictures might make someone think about.

• 2:10:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:10:56Jocko Willink?

  And people were reading all.

• 2:10:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:10:59Jocko Willink?

  I had literal people text me like, hey, is everything okay?

• 2:11:03Speaker 02

  They were texting me about that.

• 2:11:04Jocko Willink?

  Bro, that was funny.

• 2:11:06Speaker 02

  Is junk okay?

• 2:11:06Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:11:07Speaker 02

  Little cryptic stuff.

• 2:11:08Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, like, cause you know, I forget what some of them were, but you know, is this where it's supposed, you know, is, if this is the end, one of them was like, if this is the end, what is? Cause it was like a picture of like a, a construction scaffolding and it kind of like went down a path and it was at night and it looked kind of like, oh, this must be the end.

• 2:11:25Speaker 01

  That's street photography.

• 2:11:26Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, so I was doing straight up street photography. Didn't know it at the time.

• 2:11:30Speaker 02

  Well, you tech in a, I mean.

• 2:11:32Jocko Willink?

  And I put them in quotes, like I put my, the caption, I put in quotes, as if to say like, this would be not, this isn't me talking, this is like a character or whatever.

• 2:11:41Speaker 02

  Right, right. Okay, okay, I didn't gather that part of it, but.

• 2:11:44Jocko Willink?

  But you know.

• 2:11:44Speaker 02

  But even, even your, your gym photographs.

• 2:11:48Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah, true, true.

• 2:11:49Speaker 02

  Like that's, I mean, it's not out, out on the street, so you can't call it street photography, but it's the exact same thing.

• 2:11:53Jocko Willink?

  Those are gym photography.

• 2:11:55Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, it's like, yeah, just like I said, it's like.

• 2:11:58Speaker 01

  Finding compositions and have the, have the photo tell the story.

• 2:12:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, you'd be into that because you find, you know, like you're the kind where you'll find it. You'll see like, oh, I like how that perspective intersects.

• 2:12:08Jocko Willink?

  You're gonna do an assessment with me. When we're done, I'll show you my Instagram street photography from New York City.

• 2:12:14Speaker 01

  I'll give you a grade. I'll rate it from one to 10.

• 2:12:16Jocko Willink?

  Except for, no, there was one.

• 2:12:18Speaker 01

  It's tough to get people though, because it's very awkward if I don't know you to, but some of the best street photographers, that's what they do. They they capture people and these photos tell stories. And so I dove into chasing shadows. So like, we'd go in the evening, we go like right at the tail end of like golden hour, and you could see the the buildings casting different shadows to where you could have a walkway where two people are side by side. One person's in the light, one person's in a shadow. That's a cool shot. So chasing that, but it also teaches you to learn your camera on the fly, because you have to constantly adjust your aperture. You have to constantly, like if I I didn't, I wasn't using prime lenses at the time. A prime lens only shoots at one focal length. So if you've got 50 millimeters, that's all you got. If you've got 85, that's all you got. I was shooting with a 24 to 70, which I eventually switched to an 85, because 85 is just awesome.

• 2:13:02Speaker 01

  Because you don't have to get close to strangers. But we learned, I learned, like, if if you take a picture, there's no expectation of privacy in public. So you're not outside of the law. But if someone asks you to delete it, show them you deleting the photo. And so that taught me more along the lines of searching for that composition, but being a stand up person and saying, you know, I'm I'm not using this for nefarious reasons. I am using this because I need to learn how to use this camera. So I did that for a long time. And I ended up buying a camera from a buddy of mine, because cameras, cameras never go out of style. They just circulate, right? You got camera guys that sell their cameras to other camera guys and those camera guys, and it just, it just, it circulates. So I ended up picking up a older camera. And this camera actually shot video. And

• 2:13:46Speaker 01

  so I've got this camera. And I was like, you know what? I can, I can shoot weddings. I can shoot, because COVID weddings, they're smaller. There's a lot of people that I know that are getting married, they're having these little 20 person weddings. I could shoot a wedding. If I can shoot street photography, I can shoot a wedding in the backyard. And immediately got a wedding. I think they paid me like 1,500 bucks.

• 2:14:05Jocko Willink?

  Dang.

• 2:14:06Speaker 01

  And it was a great time. Actually, I still know the family, but it was a great time. And I was like, this is, this is, I'm on to something. And then, so I shot a little quick video at the reception. I was like, this video looks great. I'm a videographer now. And so now I added that.

• 2:14:20Jocko Willink?

  Sounds like Echo's career path.

• 2:14:21Speaker 01

  Exactly. Yeah. I added that to my, my website. I bought a domain at the time. I added that to the website. I came up with Instagram. Or I'd started my Instagram. If you scroll all the way back to the beginning of my Instagram, it's food and product photography. I'll never delete those photos because that's like part of my journey. And so through doing that, I started, made, you know, King Picks Media. It's short for Kingdom Pictures and Media. When we went to homeschool our kids, we changed, we, we named our school Kingdom Preparatory Academy. It's kind of after Siki first the Kingdom of God. That's kind of where everything that we do, it's kind of faith based. And so that's where King Picks Media was born because initially it was like, everything is Kingdom Pictures and Media. And I was like, that's too much to say. That's too many syllables.

• 2:15:05Speaker 01

  So I came up with King Picks Media and I linked up with, I was at one of our favorite restaurants, one of our favorite local Italian restaurants. I see a guy with his camera tethered to a MacBook and they're bringing him plates and he's taking pictures of the food. And I was like, wait, this guy is the, he's the restaurant like photographer. He is, he photographs their online menu, their Instagram. He does all of their marketing. So I go over and I introduce myself and we start talking. He was like, he was like, you wanna, you wanna come by and just hang out for a shoot? I was like, yes. So I started working with him. And so I was just going and learning as much as I could. And then one day he was like, hey, do you think you could shoot some video for me? I'm trying to, you know, upscale my business. I need something, you know, video for the video portfolio.

• 2:15:49Speaker 01

  I was like, yeah. So I bring all, you know, all of my stuff. I shoot this video for him. And I was like, oh yeah, I'm definitely a videographer now. And started trying to market, be like, hey, I shoot weddings, but I can also shoot video. Zero clients. I had zero client. I wasn't shooting weddings or videos. I had nothing. And it was like, I had this, it was this genius business idea, or so I thought, and it's going nowhere. And my wife was like, well, you already bought the website. Like you, you already, you know. Are you gonna do this business or not? I was like, yes, I was like, I have to because I opened a business account. I got, you know, the business through the state and everything. I did all the, all the tax paperwork and everything. So I have this business. I just have to do something with it. And I was like, you know, I have no clients. I have, you know, really no, no interest. Nobody's really, the website traffic was near zero.

• 2:16:34Speaker 01

  And you can advertise for free on Instagram. And so, uh, at the time I had just gotten over on the TikTok and I wasn't really big. I wasn't sold on TikTok. But I was like, you know what? If I'm gonna start making videos, I'm just gonna post them on TikTok. Nobody's gonna see them. It's not gonna go anywhere. And if it does go somewhere, then I got business. So, you know, it was a win-win. And so I posted a video. I actually ended up, I slung a rifle and I went out into the yard and I made fun of every single instructor that I've ever worked with, every single instructor that I've ever had. There was something in there and even now, like there's

• 2:17:06Jocko Willink?

  A lot of material to choose from.

• 2:17:08Speaker 01

  And it, listen, so our good friend, our mutual friend Zach Bell, veteran with a sign, he has been my biggest fan throughout the entirety of it. And he told me when we first met, he said, you've got evergreen content. And I'm like, what does that mean? He's like, there's always gonna be something for you to pull from. He said, the way your jokes are, they're not, you're not talking about, you know, I told my wife, I was like, they're not all dick jokes. They're not all, you know, just rude humor. It's not all like ball sack, like, oh, you're in your Porter John and, uh, and such and such, and it's 150 degrees. And she's like, you know, your, your, your content's different. So Zach had kind of, you know, coached me along. And he was, I was like, well, what should I do? He's like, just keep doing what you're doing.

• 2:17:46Speaker 01

  And so I posted this video of me making fun of this range instructor, thinking it's not going anywhere. I, I, I have a very solid bedtime. Like my bedtime, 10 o'clock. If I'm up, it's because I'm working on something. Um, 10 o'clock, usually I'm in bed. So I posted and I went to bed and I woke up the next day and my buddy, um, one of my street photography buddies hit me up and he was like, dude, you just went viral. He was like, you need to start doing this more. You just went viral. And I looked, had 4,000 views overnight. I had gained like 500 followers, which is not really viral, but for me, going from zero to that, it was like, I'm on to something. I'm really on to something. So what I did for the next two and a half months was I shot a video every single day. Every single day I shot a video and I posted.

• 2:18:27Jocko Willink?

  What year was this?

• 2:18:28Speaker 01

  Oh geez, uh, 20, it was 21. No, it was, it was 20. It's 2020.

• 2:18:34Jocko Willink?

  How long, what do you think you, we found this guy? How long ago was that?

• 2:18:39Speaker 02

  I don't know when it, I don't know if that was that first video or what.

• 2:18:41Jocko Willink?

  Well, it wasn't on, it was on Instagram for sure.

• 2:18:43Speaker 02

  It was on Instagram.

• 2:18:44Speaker 01

  So Instagram was way later for me.

• 2:18:46Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 2:18:46Speaker 01

  Yeah. Um, it was 2020, but um, the first actual videos that I have, there's two videos that I did during COVID that I edited on my phone. Like, I didn't have a laptop. I didn't have, like, it was, it was rough. And I edited them on my phone and I found out that um, I could just use different editing apps and I edited these videos. I only shared them on Facebook because Facebook is family and friends and people I went to high school with. That's it. Um, but I shared them on Facebook and the response was like, oh, wow, you did this? This is great. And so I, I got the kids incorporated in it and we did like this whole COVID series. And it's very much, it's, it's a pretty, it's, it's primitive video, um, but it, it, the content is funny.

• 2:19:27Speaker 01

  And so when I started doing it and posting on TikTok, I was just posting every day and it was just growing and growing and growing. And I started to see, this was at a time when military content creators posted sitting in their cars in uniform and were like, you know, I saw this in the news, but I'm a sergeant in the army, so let me tell you my take on it. And it's like, and so I saw that people placed value in people that were like, look at me. And I was like, what if I just go in there and make fun of all those people that are taking themselves too seriously? And that's what I did. And I rubbed a lot of, I, listen, I ruffled a lot of feathers, a lot of feathers. And people were like, oh, well, I have 600,000 followers, so you'd never be on my level. There's no way you could be funnier than me because I have more followers.

• 2:20:09Speaker 01

  And I just, that was just fuel for the fire. And I just started posting, I, I call it posting and roasting. But I started posting and roasting and making fun of these people. Next thing you know, I get invited to Shot Show. And uh, we actually started, um, some friends of mine, we started a small business called, it was called Wins Chow because that was my initial tagline.

• 2:20:26Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. What is Wins Chow gone?

• 2:20:28Speaker 01

  Uh, technically, yes.

• 2:20:30Jocko Willink?

  How come?

• 2:20:31Speaker 01

  So Wins Chow.

• 2:20:32Jocko Willink?

  That was freaking classic.

• 2:20:33Speaker 01

  Dude.

• 2:20:33Jocko Willink?

  Especially from the military, dude. No one gives a shit about anything. They'll be like, hold on, Wins Chow?

• 2:20:38Speaker 01

  Exactly. And that's something that applies across all branches, but also we have another demographic that we apply to. The Department of Corrections, these inmates prioritize Chow, just like we do in the military. So, um, but yeah, so we started this, uh, we started this, we opened up.

• 2:20:52Jocko Willink?

  Did you retire Win's Chow?

• 2:20:54Speaker 01

  No, we have an LLC or we had an LLC and we started doing merch through a third party. And that third party ended up, it was, it started out and it was great.

• 2:21:05Speaker 01

  It wasn't really making money off of it because of what we were spending, but the business kept itself afloat. We ended up butting heads from that third party and he tried to, he said, hey, I've got you on the hook for 80 grand. I was like, no, you don't, we don't have that much inventory, like there's, there's no way. And he was like, well, I'm gonna take you out of court. So there were three of us, so, uh, one of, one of us dropped out and was like, hey, I, I'm, you know, I'm looking at going into doing real estate. I can't have this, like, I'm, I'm out. So I was like, all right, cool, no problem. Uh, but with the three of us, we never made any decisions unless all three of us were on board with it. And so when the third party came on, we, all we saw was the production quality and the value and everything else. And we were like, oh yeah, let's, it's a no brainer, let's do it. Come to find out, it wasn't a good choice.

• 2:21:48Speaker 01

  And, uh, he said that, um, you guys have, you know, 60,000 in inventory and you have another, uh, however many thousand. I think the total was like 150 grand. He was like, you have this much in contracts. And I said, and we were on a zoom call and I'm recording on my phone and told him, I was like, hey, I'm recording. I said, who approved contracts? What member of Win's Chow LLC approved contracts? Where do we sign up with contracts with these big clothed man, clothing manufacturers? He goes, well, you guys, you guys had a verbal contract. I said, who agreed in the verbal contract? Well, you guys just, you, you nodded your heads. I said, listen, we're not on the hook, you're on the hook. And he was like, all right, that's it, I'm taking you to court.

• 2:22:33Speaker 01

  I said, okay, show me what inventory you have in stock. He's like, all right, well, I'll have to call you back. Okay. He gets off the phone, he's like, you know, I talked to my, my partner and I was like, hey, bro. If we go to jail, we go to jail. Like, it wasn't that serious. I was like, but if he's gonna sue us, it is what it is. We're already, but we have everything that we need to prove ourselves. Cause again, I'm documenting everything and he never calls me back with the inventory.

• 2:22:58Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's a bummer, man.

• 2:22:59Speaker 01

  And so, all of the stuff that we had in stock, he ended up, they ended up creating, so they owned our domain. They bought the domain for how I invented Combat Solutions Group Industries, which I don't know if you noticed, CSGI instructor.

• 2:23:14Jocko Willink?

  Lead instructor, huh?

• 2:23:15Speaker 01

  That's right. But, uh, so they, they bought the, they bought the domain for those and so I'm screwed out of a domain. What I still had was my KingPix Media domain, at kingpixmedia.com and I had the real winschow.com because I went out and bought that as well. And so we started whatever we could. That's what we used to kind of keep things afloat. And they ended up creating an Instagram page and it's, it said, I don't know what it was called. It was something Real Wins Chow or who is the Real Wins Chow? And they created this, this Wins Chow page and they were just slandering us in the comments on all over Instagram. And they were using our logo. And so I said, oh, wait a second. My partner owns that logo. He created it.

• 2:24:01Speaker 01

  And so I did a video and I said, you know what's interesting? I was like, it's interesting when people think you're stupid. I said, they created this Instagram page that's slandering our Instagram page on everybody else's.

• 2:24:15Speaker 01

  And they follow like a thousand people, but there's only three people that they follow. And it's all the three people that work for that third party that was trying to charge us with this money. And to this day, I have not publicly mentioned that company. Like I said, they did us dirty. They tried to rake us over the coals. I've never publicly, because that company's still around.

• 2:24:35Speaker 01

  But once I called them out, they deleted their Instagram and then I haven't heard from them since. And of course, we ended up not having to pay that money. We still own, you know, we still own Winchow, we still own all of the logos that we came up with, we still own everything, all the intellectual property behind it. So we're actually, we're slated for revamp this year. Because I kind of Let's get it going. Well, I took it and so what I did was I brought it back under King Fix Media. So my entire merch line, it's on my website, but we go through the same as like Zach and Fat Electrician. We go through the same, it's the same company. So I have Punch Out and Go To Work shirts that people

• 2:25:17Speaker 01

  just, they, some people, they're like, we don't know about these. And I'm like, I promote them all the time. I have the CSGI instructor shirts. I came out with red hoodies for range instructors. I've done all of these different, and I'm starting to now do my own logos to wear endless opportunities for merch. But it's just, it's been so crazy because it's like I went from zero to 100, from not knowing how to do it and having someone else doing it, getting screwed over to now facilitating it myself. And so whenever I, whenever I go somewhere, I'll wear a CSGI shirt. And right now, right now, there's a handful of them that are all throughout the world. Like there's, I'll get a picture and it'll be someone in Dubai. Like that happened last year, someone

• 2:25:58Speaker 01

  was in Dubai with a CSGI shirt. There's a guy that's in Paris today with a CSGI shirt. So it's like, the, this fake company that I've created is, is growing and it's a thing. And it's exactly like what Zach said, it's evergreen content. It'll, it'll never get old because there's always going to be someone telling some story to make themselves look way cooler than what they are. And there's always going to be these instructors that know it all, but have done not much. So it's, it's been awesome. It's been phenomenal. And when did you switch over to using Instagram? Um, I had started using Instagram in, well, I used it back during my bodybuilding career. I started bodybuilding in 2009 and I really got into it and I ended up doing, I did my first show was a Sean Ray classic in Baltimore.

• 2:26:44Speaker 01

  I did that and I got second for men's novice with no coach, no trainer, barely even a tan to go on stage with. Outside of the natural tan that the Lord's bestowed upon me. But I, I did that show and did really well. And then I started using Instagram for fitness and I actually built an Instagram in the past. Up to, I think it was like at 1,200 followers. So I had the idea of how to do, I think I always had the recipe and then I don't know if you remember the app Vine?

• 2:27:12Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, I do because I have kids.

• 2:27:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:27:15Jocko Willink?

  And you know, my kids at the time when Vine was, was popular.

• 2:27:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:27:19Jocko Willink?

  It was popular with kids and my kids were like watching the Vine. So I got to see it.

• 2:27:23Speaker 01

  So Vine was the first platform that I had a huge following on. I had over a million loops on Vine.

• 2:27:29Jocko Willink?

  What were you doing on Vine?

• 2:27:30Speaker 01

  It was, it was just like stupid videos and then somehow, this is, this is crazy. Um, I'm a, I'm a perpetual learner. I love to learn new phrases and new languages. I loved, I just love to learn. I enjoy it. And so I started to notice that there's a heavy Indian population in Canada. This is when I first really started to notice like things in other countries and everything else. Well, they all speak Punjabi and I was like, how cool would it be if I do a video introducing myself in their language, in Punjabi? So I learned how to do it. I did it. I didn't know this at the time, but their community, when they see people that want to embrace their culture, oh, they love it.

• 2:28:08Speaker 01

  So next thing you know, I'm part of what's called Punjabi Vine and I'm doing collabs with people that are in New York, Toronto, like, and it's, it's insane. It was insane. And so I learned how to tie a turban, which I'll, I'll, there's, there's no videos of me wearing a turban, but I was, I was almost there. But I became this, this. Punjabi personality while being an intel guy, you know, and it just, it was, it was cool. So that's where it started. So I think that I've always had the recipe for it. But I'm only just now starting to see, okay, how can I do this at a pace that fits my life? Cause like I told you, I don't ever want to get to a point where I consume more content than I create. If I do that, the scales aren't balanced.

• 2:28:51Speaker 01

  And so now I still, I just started creating and shooting and I never overlapped. Military, well, I never overlapped law enforcement and content creation. I was to a point, even if I was editing videos on my phone, I would not edit if I was on the clock. I never wanted there to be any opportunity for someone to say, oh, well, you're doing this. So you're not focused on your job. And I had that one time and I completely shut it down. I was like, no, I don't do that. That's not, that's not something I do. I'm here for a job. That's my side business. That's by itself.

• 2:29:22Speaker 01

  But I've never actually, I think the big allure behind me was that I never opened up about any of my past. Because who am I to say, oh, well, you should follow me because of what I've done. No, you should follow me because it's funny and it benefits you. Laughter is the best medicine and I got a PhD, kind of.

• 2:29:40Jocko Willink?

  Has anyone ever gotten like, has anyone ever gotten mad at you?

• 2:29:44Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. Yeah. Oh, absolutely. People, so.

• 2:29:48Jocko Willink?

  Have they ever like messaged you and said, bro, you should, this is really?

• 2:29:52Speaker 01

  They say it's stolen valor. They say it, they say, oh, that's stolen valor because I won't tell them.

• 2:29:56Jocko Willink?

  Oh, I got it.

• 2:29:57Speaker 01

  And so it's like.

• 2:29:58Jocko Willink?

  Has everyone, have you ever made anyone mad enough that they've messaged you and said like, hey, this is, you know, I don't want you to take, you shouldn't say, so you're trying to make fun of me in my good video or something like that. Cause I think the first time I saw your, your videos, the first one, I think I just immediately, I think it was about me. Yeah. And I immediately reposted it because it was classic.

• 2:30:17Speaker 01

  I did one that Eddie Gallagher shared, the first one that I did that kind of blew, blew my stuff up. But when I met Eddie, he said that he thought that I was being serious. And so he said, it wasn't until further down the road. So Eddie, super cool guy. Like it was, it was really cool. Like, I got you. But people have gotten mad and have been like, well, who does this guy think he is? He's never done anything. And it's like, you're right. I've never done anything, but guess what? I'm funny. And also, you're wrong because I have done things, but not leading with what I've done. So I didn't realize how prevalent that was. People just lead off with that rather than a good idea can come from anywhere. And now I'm starting to see more satire content and I love it.

• 2:30:59Speaker 01

  I love it because that's what I set out to do and that's what I'm doing. Hopefully I get to a point where I can start to actually turn a bigger profit and make it something that's more sustainable as a business in and of itself. But it's just, it's fun for me and it's my creative outlet.

• 2:31:15Jocko Willink?

  So what are you up to now? What's, you got a podcast now too, right?

• 2:31:18Speaker 01

  Yeah. So I actually, I actually just picked up co-host for a podcast with my good buddy Kyle. I don't know if you got, if you know Kyle Morgan or familiar with his story, former Delta Force guy. He and I have known each other in passing over the years and he had a host or a co-host, but his co-host, they parted ways amicably. They were, they're, you know, good to go. They were like, hey, you know, we're not gonna, you know, it's not gonna be this long drawn out thing.

• 2:31:45Speaker 01

  And something told me, hey, I should send him a message and be like, hey, you know, you're not that, you're only a few hours away from me. If you need somebody to fill in, I don't mind. Like I'm, I'm flexible. I'm willing to do whatever you need. He's like, well, I'd like to have you as a guest and just see how it flows. So I go down and I was a guest and I met his whole production team and met his wife and met the kids. And we, we had dinner and then I ended up staying the night and we shot, we shot on the first day. We went to the range and shot some more the second day. And he and I have just gotten super close over the time that I've been there. And it just, it's, it's a huge benefit because he runs the podcast and he's also got the training company. He also does speaking engagements depending on, you know, the time of the year.

• 2:32:27Speaker 01

  But he teaches mainly law enforcement, but he's got civilian courses where they're open to everybody. And he's running just an insane production down there. And I told him, I was like, look, dude, I'm just glad to be a part of this. He and I have similar, you know, faith. We have similar beliefs and kind of have a similar story. And it's just really cool to sit down and talk with him and look at the comments and see how people are relating to us. But that's called the Black and Blue Podcast. And that's been phenomenal to be a part of because that lets me. That lets me be a character without having to worry about production. Even though we sit and we have those Echo Charles conversations about what aperture these cameras are shooting at. We have those conversations, but it's a production that I've kind of fallen into.

• 2:33:09Speaker 01

  And so far, like, we had a conversation, it was, it was me and Kyle and then his wife and then my wife. My wife's never been involved in any of my business ventures and for her to be involved in this, she, she loves it. And so outside of that, I, I did start streaming. I started streaming a while back, but never really, like, I wasn't, I wasn't all in on it. Whereas now I stream every day. I stream every single day.

• 2:33:33Jocko Willink?

  And you do that on the Twitch?

• 2:33:34Speaker 01

  On the Twitch. I stream on Twitch and Kick. And I've actually started Twitch Instagram channel. So I have KingPix Media is my main Instagram, then KingPix Media TV is the streaming channel. And I've been streaming and I, dude, I talk about politics, social events. I talk about, you know, whatever's in the news. I don't necessarily take sides. I will call, if something's stupid, I'll call it stupid. But I get on the internet and for anywhere from one to three hours a night, I talk. And I take these episodes and I get clips from them and I'm trying to grow the channel now. So right now, I think the most we hit was 200 subscribers. But I'm trying, I'm trying to shatter that goal and slowly but surely, like, it's, it's working. Like, I'm kind of being more recognizable.

• 2:34:18Speaker 01

  Twitch, it's hard to grow organically, so you have to use Instagram, YouTube and everything else. But I've been streaming every single day and we just did our first, like, major giveaway. I've been talking with the good folks at Safari Land and we have, I have an announcement for a giveaway for the Incog holster. At some point, I'm going to be giving away, like, like, I don't know, like X300, the Surefire pistol lights. Doing shirt giveaways, hoodie giveaways. So that really kind of keeps people in, but Twitch is the best way to talk to me. Because I have people that I've never met that have seen my Instagram and they might send a flurry of messages. I don't really check messages on Instagram. But if you're in my chat, that's a good way for us to have a conversation. So that's been the main

• 2:34:59Jocko Willink?

  And they're sending typed messages to you in the chat?

• 2:35:02Speaker 01

  They can type them up. So I do have this thing where you can send like a speaking message, but I don't think, I don't, I gotta talk to my assistant. I don't know. And he's gonna kill me for saying his name. But my buddy Snow Ox is, he was the one who was supposed to be here with me today. He, he has showed, he's given me the game. He's shown me the ins and outs. And he's never asked for a thing. He's never asked for a thing. He came and he helped me shoot a Las Vegas range day that I went to. And he was my camera guy. And he just, he just gives so much time and effort and in support of my channel. And he's been my assistant for the last, it's almost been two years now. And it's just amazing because he knows Twitch and Discord. I have no clue.

• 2:35:43Speaker 01

  Discord is weird because it's like, that's where you go and people can post memes and you have different channels. It's tough to keep up with, but he is on it. So if someone says something, uh, we had a guy that said something that was disrespectful to me and my family. I said, no, I said, that guy said that because he's angry. Let him stick around. He was like, all right, but next strike. He said, he should just give me the sign. I said, people, you have two opportunities. The first time, if you're angry, if you speak out of anger and you post something that's detrimental to, disparaging to me, I get it. But the second time you do that, you're out. And he is on it. Like, he's always like chomping at the bit to ban people. And he's like, he's like my assistant slash nerd security because the people just say some crazy things on the internet. And so it's, it's been awesome. It really has.

• 2:36:25Jocko Willink?

  Internet, internet be getting wild sometimes.

• 2:36:27Speaker 01

  It do.

• 2:36:28Jocko Willink?

  And you're back active duty with the National Guard? Is that right?

• 2:36:32Speaker 01

  So

• 2:36:32Jocko Willink?

  And that's where you're at right now?

• 2:36:34Speaker 01

  Yeah. So I was, I was at a point in my, on the law enforcement side where there was a lot that I was seeing with leadership that from my perspective, I could be wrong. I always say this, from my perspective, certain members of leadership were out of touch. And they, they were, there was a lot that was going on that I didn't agree with on the leadership side. Um, there were things operationally that I didn't agree with. And, uh, just from looking at things from a tactical side, like, hey, this just happened. We should do this. Well, no, I'm in charge here. And like, they made it a point to say, I'm in charge. So it's like, okay. I respect the rank. Um, but-

• 2:37:10Jocko Willink?

  When you have to say you're in charge, it's not a good sign.

• 2:37:12Speaker 01

  Exactly. Um, but, uh, I ended up having this opportunity, uh, on the counter drug task force and being with my experience in law enforcement and also doing surveillance and pattern of life and all the recon stuff that I've, that I've done over the years. I can translate that to either teach or to be a part of a team. So I got assigned, um, got assigned, uh, almost two years ago. And then I had, uh, another assignment. There was a, an agency that was building, uh, their sniper program. They were also, they were switching over to pistol mounted optics. And the people who were building the curriculum for this agency had no clue, like, well, what, what is a, what is the difference between, you know, uh, getting a slide milled or buying, you know, the, the Glocks that, you know,

• 2:37:57Speaker 01

  the, the ones that already have it. And I said, oh my gosh, okay. So I helped build that curriculum. I got moved from that assignment to another assignment, but I've been doing pretty much counter drug task force and narcotics for the last two years.

• 2:38:09Jocko Willink?

  Nice. Freaking legit.

• 2:38:11Speaker 01

  A lot of rides in helicopters, which I don't, I don't like.

• 2:38:15Jocko Willink?

  Well, right on, man. Speaking of rides, been a wild ride for you so far, huh?

• 2:38:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, it has, it has been wild.

• 2:38:19Jocko Willink?

  Is that, um, does that get us up to speed? Want anything else we need to hit on?

• 2:38:24Speaker 01

  Geez, no, that, I think that's a, that's, that's everything. Uh, I, I have been working very closely with, I don't know if you've heard of like the unsubscribe podcast or those guys?

• 2:38:33Jocko Willink?

  I've, oh no, I haven't been on that. I've been on the adjacent podcast-

• 2:38:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:38:37Jocko Willink?

  With the fat electrician and Zach. What's their, what's their podcast?

• 2:38:41Speaker 01

  Underwhelming.

• 2:38:41Jocko Willink?

  I've been on the underwhelming. He was so underwhelming that I didn't remember the name. Sorry, boys. No, yeah, they're great. They're, they're freaking classic. And, uh, and I had both those guys on my podcast.

• 2:38:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:38:51Jocko Willink?

  Zach's been on also as well, solo. But yeah, yeah, I know those guys.

• 2:38:56Speaker 01

  Yeah. So I've been working with-

• 2:38:58Jocko Willink?

  And Brandon Herrera, who's-

• 2:38:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:39:00Jocko Willink?

  -gonna win the seat that he's running for in Texas.

• 2:39:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:39:03Jocko Willink?

  After the other guy was a dirtbag.

• 2:39:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:39:07Jocko Willink?

  Which was pretty epic.

• 2:39:08Speaker 01

  Uh, so that, I've been working with those guys. So, um, Donut Operator or Cody, uh, he, uh, he came up to DC or they all were in DC for Army 250. And I do work with Echelon Energy Drink, not Echelon Front, but Echelon Energy. I work very closely with them because anytime I go to Nashville, I can stay at Eric's house. I'll go to the warehouse. I'll give them, I'll give them content ideas. They literally, I'm kind of in a creative director position there. So Eric had missed his flight, or something happened with the flights where the Echelon was on a suitcase that was delivered to DCA, but Eric was still in Nashville. So Tyler and I, Tyler Vargas Andrews, we live within 20 minutes of each other. He's

• 2:39:51Speaker 01

  over at the house, over at the range all the time. We're on the way home and I'm like, dude, I'm tired. Let's just go home. So we're heading home. Eric calls and says, hey, there's a suitcase at the airport. I need you to pick it up and take it back to DC because the unsub guys need it. And I'm like,

• 2:40:09Speaker 01

  and in my mind, all I can hear is Dionne Warwick singing, "That's What Friends Are For." That's, I'm literally hearing-

• 2:40:15Jocko Willink?

  That's a rough soundtrack for-

• 2:40:16Speaker 01

  It is, it is, it is. And I looked at, I said, I said Tyler, I was like, I'm, I'm gonna, I gotta have to buy you a meal, man. I was like, we gotta, we gotta turn around and do this. So Tyler's like, it's all good. And he's, he takes his handicap placard and puts it on the, on the windshield, or the-

• 2:40:30Jocko Willink?

  Let's roll.

• 2:40:30Speaker 01

  And he's like, let's go. So we go to the airport. He's like, no one's gonna ask me to move. He's like, he's like, you go inside, get the suitcase, come on out, we'll take it to DC. So we end up taking it to DC. Of course, there in this hotel where parking was like atrocious. So keep in mind, handicap placard's still up there. So the guy sees Tyler get out, you know, missing an arm and a leg. And I said, I said, I talked to the security, he's like, hey, y'all can't park. I said, listen, I was like, this man is a war hero. We're going upstairs to see our friends for the first time in a long time, which is not a lie. It's true. I was like, you can find five minutes to let us leave this car here. He goes, oh, I recognize him. I was like, that's exactly who this is. You

• 2:41:11Speaker 01

  can, he's like, oh man, y'all good? I was like, all right, cool. So we go upstairs and of course, we were up, we ended up being up there for like an hour or so. But it's all the unsub guys and- It was almost like, it was almost like someone, someone bringing you hot chow at the end of a training evolution. They were like, oh, thank you, you know, thank you. And so we all get to talk and we're all in our separate conversations. And Cody, they're like, dude, we have no idea what you do for a living. We have no idea. Like, we, we've hung out before. You've come down to range day. He was like, can you please tell me? And that was where I told him, I was like, Cody, I've been a cop for the last 18 years. I spent a lot of time, you know, also in the National Guard, I said, I spent a little time, you know, contracting, conducting missions overseas. I was

• 2:41:53Speaker 01

  like, but mostly, most, most of my career, law enforcement and SWAT and all the cool stuff, all the pursuits and the shootings, like that's, that's why I don't talk about it. Cause I'm, and he goes, you're the black version of me. And I was like, pretty much, I was like, I'm the old black version of you. Cause he, his background is law enforcement. And so he was like, well, I got some projects I'm working on. You can, you can help me out with if you're interested. So we had already exchanged numbers, but he was like, he was like, call me anytime. And so we were about to leave and he goes, he goes, wait, wait. And he's got his phone. He says, hey, are you free next week? I was like, well, you know, I gotta, I gotta put in leave. And he looks at me, he goes,

• 2:42:33Speaker 01

  are you free next week? I was like, yep, I'm free. He says, he says, all right. He said, send Zach your, send Zach your information. We're going to book you a flight. He said, we just moved, he said, me and my wife, we just moved into a new house. He said, come down, spend the week with us. He says, I want to come back to streaming. Keep in mind, I'm still new to streaming, fairly new to streaming at this point. He says, I want to get back into streaming and Cody's got millions of followers. Like he, he gets, he does it right. He does it full time. And so his first stream back, I was sitting right there in the office with him and I spent, we spent a few days and I didn't know it, but he's got a video background as well. We watched, we watched a bunch, we watched like Sicario and we were critiquing the shots and like, what do the shots communicate outside of

• 2:43:18Speaker 01

  the dialogue? And so we're sitting, the more we talk, the more we realize we have in common. I didn't know it, but I had met his mom at a previous range day. His mom was still asking about me. So he FaceTimes his mom and he's like, here, mom, talk to your black son. And I'm just sitting on the couch and I'm just talking to mama and we're just, it's such a, it's such a good fit and he and I just get along and these are the kind of people that they're not, they're not going to give you a fish. They're going to teach you to fish. And the kind of friends that I need are people who are going to teach me because you can give me something. I could sell out to any shill company or shill brand or whatever and make $10,000 today. But ultimately, if I play the long game and do this over time, I can get to a point where I have a full-fledged

• 2:44:02Speaker 01

  career as a streamer slash content creator, just from the people that are showing me, giving me the keys, giving me the game, the people like Zach, the people like Nick, the people like Cody. Dude spent money on me, invited me out to the house and then Zach came down. We went over to Brandon's house and that's where like, it's this network of guys that are successful because they're good dudes. And kept in touch with him and then, you know, he was like, well, you should consider this with streaming. And I was like, well, I'm streaming from a MacBook and he was like, ah, that sucks. And within the, within the first two weeks of me getting back from his house, he was like, hey, I sent some merch to your house. It should be there today. I come home, there's a full PC that was shipped to my house.

• 2:44:46Speaker 01

  It was like, it's like this $5,000 computer. He literally sent it to my house, computer, monitor, mouse, the whole nine yards. I have no clue what I'm looking at. Snowbox could tell you what I'm working with because I let him remote into my computer to set it up. But that's the kind of people I work with. And then during the shutdown, this last shutdown, I'm not going to lie, like I have some passive income, which is good for, you know, small bills and everything else. But Cody was like, hey, I need your Venmo. I was like, what? He was like, yeah, it's a government shutdown. I need your Venmo. And he literally gave me money to, to make sure that I didn't miss a step. These are the kind of people that I love being surrounded by because although they're celebrities, they're famous, they still make time to support the people they love.

• 2:45:31Speaker 01

  And it's just, it's crazy because I went from thinking like, man, I just got screwed over by a third party. And now here I am, you know, working with someone who's supporting my, essentially has helped me build my channel. And he's asked for nothing in return. He's asked for, he's not been like, hey, I help you out, you help, no, it's like, hey, you want to come back down next month and we'll, you know, go to the batting cages or something? And it's like, these are, these are friends, which is crazy because you hear so much about, you know, don't meet your heroes, you hear so much about these people and these grifters that are, they have these big followings, but they're not good people, whereas these are actually good people who just so happen to be really good at what they do. And I'm kind of, my goal is to follow in their footsteps and in your footsteps. You've obviously built something over time and it's not, it doesn't happen overnight, but you've built something over time.

• 2:46:15Speaker 01

  And everything you've done, you know, from start to now, it's built upon the next thing. And it's, that's a common theme is build the next thing from the thing you're on now and just keep going.

• 2:46:26Jocko Willink?

  Right on. Well, it sounds like you're on the path, man.

• 2:46:30Speaker 01

  I am.

• 2:46:31Jocko Willink?

  Echo Charles, you got any questions?

• 2:46:33Speaker 02

  We got rewind back to that first video that you, that you did, what was that about? Do you remember the first one?

• 2:46:39Speaker 01

  The first one, I was making fun of Lucas Botkin. And I've actually met Lucas and I've talked to Lucas and super nice guy. He was running T-Rex Arms at the time. I was just making fun of him. He's got no law enforcement, no military background, but he's always talking about law enforcement and military scenarios and offering his commentary, which is, there's nothing wrong with that. But he catches a lot of heat for doing it and he works with a lot of, you know, military guys. And he works with a lot of former special operations and he's built a company, a multimillion dollar company from doing that. And I was like, hey, low hanging fruit, I'll just make fun of him. So I just made fun of him, like not maliciously, but I just, just made fun of him and that's where it started.

• 2:47:21Speaker 01

  And then, of course, Tim Kennedy, I made fun of Tim, which when I met him, it was kind of awkward. But again, he was, he was nice. He didn't have, you know, a problem with it. I think the biggest hurdle was when I met you, the first thing I did was apologize because I didn't get any feedback. I didn't get any feedback from you. So when I met her, I was like, hey, just so you know, these are jokes and these jokes are good.

• 2:47:43Speaker 02

  So there is the one, the one, the first one I came across of yours was, I was one of those guys too who thought you were being serious.

• 2:47:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:47:48Speaker 02

  Just for that one video though, cause I looked into.

• 2:47:51Speaker 01

  Gotcha.

• 2:47:51Jocko Willink?

  Then you're doing your job, right?

• 2:47:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:47:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:47:53Speaker 01

  Sold it.

• 2:47:54Speaker 02

  It was the one where you were like, hey, I don't, something along, I'm paraphrasing, where you're saying, um, you know, I don't, I don't have to tell you how much of a badass I am, you know, my, my, uh, my resume speaks for itself.

• 2:48:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:48:08Speaker 02

  Although you're telling everybody.

• 2:48:09Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 2:48:10Speaker 02

  It's like so funny.

• 2:48:10Speaker 01

  Oh, I've experienced that so many times.

• 2:48:12Speaker 02

  Now considering now you're watching this video and you think he's serious, you're like, oh my, I can't believe this guy's actually saying this. Two people on a video and he's posting the video like, bro, this is just me, you know, so I looked into it. I was like, ah, this is good. This is really funny.

• 2:48:25Speaker 01

  I used to put a disclaimer, I used to say, I used to put like an asterisk and say, this is satire. And my wife was like, why are you doing that? I was like, because I'm getting a ton of hate comments. She goes, the hate comments are what they call engagement. That promotes, and she's, she's just got a mind for it. She's like, that promotes you in the algorithm and gets your videos out there. Stop doing that. So I stopped doing that and then I started growing and I'm still, I'm still on my way. I think I just hit 95K on Instagram, but I'm on my way to a hundred K and even past that. So it's like the people that thought I was real and they might not see the content for a few months and come back to it and see something else and like, oh, this guy was joking. It, it's a whole new audience.

• 2:49:02Speaker 02

  Right. And the, even of course the algorithm, that's kind of the game within the game in, in a lot of ways, but if they don't think that you're, or if they think that you're real, so you wind up with this big group of people who think that it's for real.

• 2:49:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:49:16Speaker 02

  Then another big group of people who are more the insiders who know, but are kind of part of the, they're down for the whole shtick, you know, they're down for like the comedy and stuff like that. So now you have these kind of warring factions, right? And they don't even know that they're at war, by the way.

• 2:49:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:49:30Speaker 02

  Cause they're like, oh, that guy's such a douche and you're on their mind.

• 2:49:32Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 2:49:33Speaker 02

  You see what I'm saying? So now when your stuff comes up, they're kind of addicted to it. Cause really that's the, the feeling that I got. That's why I even looked into it. I was like, bro, this guy's such a douche. I want to see more douchey stuff. And I looked and it was like, it wound up being more funny.

• 2:49:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:49:46Speaker 02

  But it's because it's douchey and it's funny. You see what I'm saying?

• 2:49:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:49:49Speaker 02

  So like it helps in that way as well.

• 2:49:50Speaker 01

  Well, the, the crazy thing is I have five years of doing this. Five years of cringe worthy content. And it's still like, I get, I, I get videos all the time and my phone is full of notes for video ideas and it just, it's fun.

• 2:50:03Speaker 02

  Do you, um, Did you ever, or did you ever think about doing like improv acting or anything like that?

• 2:50:10Speaker 01

  Uh, so I did theater for a short time in high school, um, but because my grades weren't up to par, I ended up doing a monologue. Um, I did a monologue from like Streetcar Named Desire.

• 2:50:22Speaker 01

  And I, I worked really hard on it. I did this monologue and I've actually talked to one of my buddies is an LA actor. I've talked to him. He's like, you just gotta get an agent. You'd be really good at this. And I'm like, that's not really where my heart's at. And even with, with improv, like I, I like doing the stuff that I can do on my terms because if it's two o'clock in the morning and I have a video, I have a low light video where I can go set up lights in my yard and shoot a low light, you know, video, I can do that. If, if I don't feel like shooting this week, and that's another thing I've gotten away from is the pressure. A lot of people, they're like, oh, I'm pressured because if I have to do this every day to remain, uh, relevant, no you don't. I take days off. I, I still, you know, I still am very instrumental in homeschooling my kids and, and taking them back and forth to, uh,

• 2:51:03Speaker 01

  to youth at the church and everything else. Um, so the, the acting side of things, I would, I would be interested to work. I, I have friends that are in production. A buddy of mine just graduated film school. He's working on smaller productions. I would be more than willing to do that, but to have that be my full time, I, I don't think that I would do that, you know, more than maybe three to four projects a year.

• 2:51:26Speaker 02

  Do you enjoy that, that part of the process being in front of the camera?

• 2:51:30Speaker 01

  I do.

• 2:51:31Speaker 02

  Is it because, okay, so we, I did a show with a guy called Hinato Laranja, which I kind of mentioned it earlier where he does, his persona is a lot different than his real persona. He does, he doesn't overlap as much as you. But he's, um, he does have an acting background and stuff like that. Um, so, but you could tell he's really into that like part of it, you know?

• 2:51:53Speaker 01

  I, I think, I think I could, um, I haven't really done, I haven't really done anything outside of some collabs, but I'd be more than, like when I talk to Cody, we always talk about shooting a movie. And one of the reasons that I got that camera was because eventually if I ever decide that I am going to shoot, I did write a short film. I just wrote a synopsis and then I'd start it on a script. But I'm the only character in that. I play, it's, I play two different characters, but it's, it's the same character. And so I wrote that probably two years ago now, and I just, I don't, I don't have the time and I haven't finished the project. I don't want to start another part of that project while that, while it's still in, in progress. But I think that, you know, depending on, depending on

• 2:52:36Speaker 01

  timing and everything else, I would, if I could make a living doing that, I think that it would be difficult to make that decision, but I could probably do like, you know, smaller projects throughout the year.

• 2:52:46Speaker 02

  You mentioned the collab thing and one, a big part of what makes collabs so fun and interesting is when you take, let's say your character, right? You know, Aloysius.

• 2:52:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:52:59Speaker 02

  How is Kingsley Aloysius Penderhugh the third gonna interact with XYZ?

• 2:53:06Speaker 01

  Oh, I got ideas.

• 2:53:07Speaker 02

  That's the, that's really what it is. So that's, that's why I mentioned the, the improv acting because, and I'm not saying, hey, you're gonna go all in on improv, but if you just have a little bit of that skill sprinkled in, it really gives rise to this interaction that can be like super.

• 2:53:21Speaker 01

  One of the things that I look at with collabs is obviously, who is this character that I've built? And what would they say if they were in the room with Jocko? What would they say if they're in the room with, you know, with any of these other guys? They would immediately try to one up them. You know what I mean? They would immediately try to, to, to create, to establish some sort of like this, this whole thing of, oh, you gotta dominate the room. No, you don't. You can literally just be yourself and just be comfortable in that. But that's, that's kinda where it would come from. And then like, I did one with Kyle where he came over and this guy's got, you know, I mean, he's got, he's decorated, you know, from, from his, his time, um, his incident in Africa. And I'm like, hey, just so you know,

• 2:54:06Speaker 01

  I'm a combat cook, so you can go sit down. And he just goes, Roger that. And that video, people seeing me interact with someone, you know, that's done what he's done. And seeing this combat cook, which is made up, like I don't know if you guys know that or not. That's not a MO. Combat cook is not a thing. But they see him interact with me and they're like, this is great. And because now they see Kyle, who has been seen as more of a serious, intense kind of content creator, come out of his shell because I'm the comedian who's like, you know, comparing myself to him. And so it really, it opens him up or him up to my audience, but then it shows his audience that he's got that comedic

• 2:54:49Speaker 01

  timing and everything else. And he's a funny guy, but you turn the camera on and he's like, kinda, I don't want to say robotic, but I know he's gonna watch this. He's a little robotic. He's a little robotic.

• 2:55:00Jocko Willink?

  The truth comes out. Poor Kyle over there.

• 2:55:03Speaker 01

  I'm coaching him.

• 2:55:04Jocko Willink?

  Never mind your distinguished service cross. You're a little robotic in front of a camera.

• 2:55:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. Loosen up a bit, man.

• 2:55:10Jocko Willink?

  Right on. Anything else, Echo Charles?

• 2:55:12Speaker 02

  Good to hang with you.

• 2:55:13Jocko Willink?

  Right on. King Kingsley, any closing thoughts?

• 2:55:19Speaker 01

  I do, I do like to leave with this. I do like to leave this as a closing thought. Initially, like, when people would ask me that, I'd be like, nope, nothing. Good to go. But I like to promote my faith, my belief. I've been a Christian. I grew up a Christian, grew up in church, kinda straight away from it. And I've had, you know, good, bad and ugly in my life. And at a time where I was at my lowest, which was when I was recovering from a torn ACL,

• 2:55:50Speaker 01

  a friend of mine reached out to me and was like, hey, you should bring the family to church. I was like, I'm not going to church. I was like, I gotta get on these crutches and hobble over there. And I did it. I went to church and that friend became my mentor. He's older guy, a little closer to retirement. And I tore my ACL in September of 2018. I was baptized in October, that same year. And Kyle has this thing where he always talks about, you know, how his road to faith is similar to mine, but he advises people to remain curious. And one of the things that I like to promote is remain curious. You know, when you have that still small voice that you hear in your head and you know it's not a suggestion

• 2:56:33Speaker 01

  or it's not something you come up with on your own, remain curious. And I often challenge, mostly young men, because I've once been a young man, but- Remain curious, you know, integrity and accountability are huge. But also, if you have that still small voice, if you hear something calling, you really hone in on that. And, you know, I don't, there, there are a lot of people who will force it and say, you, you have to do this. Well, I don't think anybody has to do it. I would like for people to do it. I would like for you to do it. I would like for you to call me and say, hey, you know, I was thinking about this and, you know, I, I would like to be able to have that. But you have to want that. And for everyone listening, they also have to want that. And I, like I said, I grew up and I strayed from it.

• 2:57:15Speaker 01

  And I was kinda, when I was leaning to my own understanding, life was not going well. I thought it was, it wasn't. And even now, I'm not, you know, I'm not floating on a cloud, but even during the shutdown, during things that I've been blessed with, the people that I've been blessed to meet, you guys, like, it's all, it's all a part of, you know, this thing that I'm doing called life. And I always encourage people, remain curious.

• 2:57:37Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, well, that's a great, a great attitude to have out there for everybody. And, um, yeah, thanks for joining us. Thanks for coming out. I know it's a little bit of a trip, uh, probably a very long trip, actually, from the east coast. So thanks for coming out. Thanks for sharing your lessons learned.

• 2:57:51Speaker 01

  Definitely.

• 2:57:51Jocko Willink?

  Your experience, your outlook on the world, um, you know, keeping us humble through humor.

• 2:57:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:57:59Jocko Willink?

  Which is an important thing. And thanks for your service, you know?

• 2:58:02Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 2:58:02Jocko Willink?

  Both as a, as a, as a contractor, as a law enforcement officer, and, you know, as a soldier.

• 2:58:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, thank you.

• 2:58:08Jocko Willink?

  Much appreciated, brother.

• 2:58:09Speaker 01

  Appreciate you more.

• 2:58:12Jocko Willink?

  Right on.

• 2:58:14Jocko Willink?

  And with that, Kingsley Aloysius Pinderhughes III has left the building. He has gone to take a little walk back to his hotel.

• 2:58:26Speaker 01

  The hinterland?

• 2:58:27Jocko Willink?

  He gave being outside.

• 2:58:29Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 2:58:30Jocko Willink?

  Being aware of his surroundings.

• 2:58:32Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 2:58:32Jocko Willink?

  Healthy. If you want to have a sharp mind for the wit, you know, then you're going to have the physical strength, stamina, awareness. So that is why, that's why we're working out. That's why we're training. That's why we're lifting. That's why we're sprinting, running. Surfing, we're getting after it. And because of that, you know what we need? I'll give you one guess what we need.

• 2:58:58Speaker 02

  Fuel.

• 2:58:59Jocko Willink?

  Yes, we do need fuel and we want to get the good fuel. The good fuel. Check out Jocko Fuel dot com or go to a store in your area, a grocery store in your area. And check out Jocko Fuel. We have protein. We have ready drink protein, protein powder. We have hydration. We have energy. We've got everything that you need. We have a Pro line now. I've been taking muscle drive, which is very excellent.

• 2:59:27Jocko Willink?

  I don't, this is not something that it is like intended for, but when you, when you have some muscle drive, I think it's because it has all the amino acids, you kind of feel full. Right? So it's kind of nice to take that after you work out when you don't want a big, like sometimes you get done working out, you don't want a big giant meal. At least I don't.

• 2:59:46Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 2:59:47Jocko Willink?

  So it's, it's been turning into my, kind of like a, kind of like a nine thirty breakfast. Little muscle drive. So check it out. Jocko Fuel dot com or wherever you buy stuff, food stuff, you'll be able to find some. Also, training jujitsu, which we really didn't get into the topic of jujitsu very much today, which, which is weird because we talked to Jason. Subjects, because whenever you're talking about combatives, you're talking about, you know what I mean? Like I, I usually bring, or you talk about subduing suspects or like that's the time when I start talking about jujitsu and I didn't.

• 3:00:27Jocko Willink?

  But you should be training jujitsu, whether you're in law enforcement or not, whether you're in the military or not, no matter what you do, you should be training jujitsu. Check out OriginUSA.com because you're going to need a jujitsu gi, you're going to need a jujitsu rash guard, you need some good stuff.

• 3:00:41Jocko Willink?

  To train in, but you're not always training jujitsu. That's why we also make jeans. We make hoodies, we make t-shirts, we make boots, we make everything that you need. And it's all 100% made in America. That's what we're doing at OriginUSA.com. Check it out.

• 3:00:56Speaker 02

  It's true. Also check out Jocko's store. Forget about that. Oh, discipline equals freedom. You know, we representing while we're on this path with our good fuel, we can represent. Anyway, we've got some shirts on there, some hoodies on there, some hats on there, some shorts on there, a lot of stuff on there.

• 3:01:13Speaker 02

  If you want to represent also Shirt Locker.

• 3:01:16Jocko Willink?

  Wait, is that a subscription scenario?

• 3:01:18Speaker 02

  Subscription scenario every month, probably every month. New design. It's a good one. People seem to like it. Anyway, it's all on JacoStore.com. So yeah, click on the top where it says Shirt Locker. See what it's all about. Pretty cool. It's all on JacoStore.com.

• 3:01:32Jocko Willink?

  Can you get the black on black, discipline equals freedom shirt like you're wearing right now?

• 3:01:36Speaker 02

  Yes, you can.

• 3:01:37Jocko Willink?

  Check. We like that. Also, a bunch of books. Put Your Legs On by Rob Jones. Need to Lead by Dave Burke. I've written a bunch of books, a bunch of leadership books, and a bunch of kids' books. So check those out if you want. We have a leadership consultancy where we will help you solve the problems inside your organization through leadership. If you need help, go to AshlanFront.com and check it out. We also teach the skills of leadership online. So if you want to engage in that, check out ExtremeOwnership.com. And we also have a little AI tool to help you. AskJaco.ai. You can ask leadership questions and I will give you answers.

• 3:02:18Jocko Willink?

  Well, the artificial intelligence version of me will answer your questions. If you want to help service members, active and retired, you want to help their families, you want to help Gold Star families, check out Mark Lee's mom, Mama Lee. She's got an amazing charity organization. If you want to donate or you want to get involved, go to AmericasMightyWarriors.org. Also, check out HeroesAndHorses.org and Jimmy May's organization, BeyondTheBrotherhood.org. If you want to connect with us, first with for to to connect with Kingsley, check out KingPixMedia.com and then on Twitter, X, Instagram, Twitch and TikToks.

• 3:02:58Jocko Willink?

  He's at KingPix, P I X, Media. And for us, check out Jaco.com and then on social media. I'm at Jocko Willink, Echo's at Echo Charles.

• 3:03:08Jocko Willink?

  Just be careful for the algorithm. And thanks once again to Kingsley for coming on and sharing his experiences, his lessons learned. And thanks for your service as a contractor, as a law enforcement officer, and as a soldier. And thanks to all the military personnel out there around the world right now. There are some definitely strange and crazy times happening. So, thank you for putting your lives on the line to protect us and our way of life. We are grateful for your service and your sacrifice. Also, thanks to our police, law enforcement, firefighters, paramedics, EMTs, dispatchers, correctional officers, border patrol, secret services, well as all other first responders. Thank you for what you do here on the home front to keep us safe.

• 3:03:51Jocko Willink?

  We are also grateful for your service and your sacrifice as well. And to everyone else out there, remember what the SAS, at least I think it's the SAS. Remember what their protocol is. Don't take yourself too seriously. Have a good time. Keep it humble. And in order to do that, keep it humorous. And that's all I've got for tonight. Until next time, this is Echo and Jocko. Out.