455 - Time Math

On today’s episode, Georgia covers the disappearance of Adam Emery and Karen tells the story of the “Cardiff Giant.”

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:06Georgia Hardstark?

  In New Orleans, truckers kept getting sideswiped the exact same way.

• 0:09Karen Kilgariff?

  When a man is found murdered under questionable circumstances related to these accidents, that's when the rubber hits the road.

• 0:16Georgia Hardstark?

  And what the feds uncover is a complex scheme of staged wrecks, financial fraud, and a pair of conspiring lovers behind it.

• 0:23Karen Kilgariff?

  This is a story about fake accidents that led to real consequences.

• 0:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Listen to Over My Dead Body: Operation Sideswipe wherever you get your podcasts.

• 0:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Audible subscribers can binge all episodes early and ad-free right now.

• 0:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Join Audible in the Audible app or by subscribing on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Goodbye.

• 0:41Speaker 02

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• 1:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Hello. And welcome. To my favorite murder. That's Georgia Hardstark. That is Karen Kilgariff. And we're being flirty and feisty and fun. It's the AM podcast. Hey. We wake up with you. Got to go to work. So do we, right now. Let's do this thing. What's going on? How are you? I'm good, thank you. I had one of those bed routing weekends where I just really... Late around, like that was my job.

• 1:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Nothing's better than that.

• 1:54Karen Kilgariff?

  It's very, I felt very lucky to have two days to just post up.

• 1:58Georgia Hardstark?

  It's not the best.

• 1:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Cause otherwise, like, if you have one thing to do that weekend, that's all you think about is like leading up to that one thing.

• 2:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes. And then you start rationalizing why you're not doing it, why you're not gonna do it.

• 2:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh my god.

• 2:11Karen Kilgariff?

  It's like, you just need to go down and ship something at like the post office. Just do it. It's not a big deal.

• 2:18Georgia Hardstark?

  You've been like thinking about it for so much longer than it would have taken you to actually do it.

• 2:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Can I tell you that that's this, that's me with nails now because I've never cared about, I mean, it's not like I didn't care about nails.

• 2:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 2:29Karen Kilgariff?

  But my sister has like, uh, hand model nails.

• 2:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh.

• 2:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Very deep nail beds, always perfect, long, whatever.

• 2:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Whatever.

• 2:38Karen Kilgariff?

  I have my dad's hands, so it truly looks sad and like I'm trying to do something with what I got, which is what I'm doing.

• 2:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 2:46Karen Kilgariff?

  So most of the time I just kinda don't pay attention.

• 2:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 2:49Karen Kilgariff?

  But then recently I'm like, yeah, I don't wanna be on camera and go like this and just have like a broken nail with a little dirt under it.

• 2:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally. My raggedy cuticles.

• 2:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 2:59Georgia Hardstark?

  I get it.

• 2:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Like, I don't know. But, but you cannot get me to get down there.

• 3:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Is it cause you have gel on?

• 3:05Karen Kilgariff?

  It's gel, but I just, it's this laziness of I'll do it later, I'll do it later.

• 3:09Georgia Hardstark?

  That's the problem because you can't take that shit off by yourself. So you can't do anything about it. So it just looks worse and worse. It's, it's gel's fault.

• 3:15Karen Kilgariff?

  It, it's true. And it's also when it's growing out, so like the space between your cuticles. Where it's just like, ma'am, you simply must, by city ordinance, go in there.

• 3:26Georgia Hardstark?

  We're videoing this, which is why we care because I feel like from far away, people can't see, like on video now, people are like, oh, her nails are polished. They don't know that like, just looks like your nails getting shorter and smaller.

• 3:37Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, that's.

• 3:38Georgia Hardstark?

  I don't think.

• 3:39Karen Kilgariff?

  It looks, it's gonna start to look like it's a two-tone polish idea.

• 3:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 3:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Like it's just creative.

• 3:43Georgia Hardstark?

  It's so nude.

• 3:45Karen Kilgariff?

  It is truly nude. Well, my last one was red. And then I was like.

• 3:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Let's go fall.

• 3:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Let's go like, neutral, cause what are you doing? Don't draw attention to these weird man hands where it looks like. It's a little sausage-y, but it's also a little bit like the hands of a person. He's had it.

• 4:06Georgia Hardstark?

  I wonder if you can exercise your fingers. Is there a finger exercise to like strengthen?

• 4:11Karen Kilgariff?

  So stupid. Yeah, that's, that's when you know you've gone right over the edge.

• 4:15Georgia Hardstark?

  You're ripped in your fingers?

• 4:17Karen Kilgariff?

  It's like, I can't get basic shit done, but I sure can do 25 of these.

• 4:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Man, she's shredded and just her fingers. Everything else is falling apart, but she is shredded.

• 4:27Karen Kilgariff?

  She's cut exactly where it doesn't matter.

• 4:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Do you know she competes in finger competitions? The posing and all this?

• 4:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Please don't go close on my hands.

• 4:37Georgia Hardstark?

  I always see her in Venice Beach, like pumping iron, but just with her fingers.

• 4:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Just fingers.

• 4:43Georgia Hardstark?

  All right.

• 4:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Is that it?

• 4:45Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 4:45Karen Kilgariff?

  You have nothing to report?

• 4:46Georgia Hardstark?

  I don't have anything. I was just out of town for so long in Mexico City. It was fucking incredible.

• 4:50Karen Kilgariff?

  What do you have? Give us a top three highlights.

• 4:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Uh, churro.

• 4:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Lucha. Sorry, that, you're thinking of the Contra Costa County Fair.

• 4:59Georgia Hardstark?

  No, a churro in Mexico City.

• 5:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Probably the best one you'd ever had.

• 5:04Georgia Hardstark?

  It's the best one I've ever had. It dipped it in chocolate. Then lucha libre. We went to the fucking Arena Mexico and saw lucha libre, the wrestling match. It was unbelievable. It was so much fun.

• 5:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Incredible. The original?

• 5:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. And then just all the food that we ate was, like, that's separate from the churro, but everything was like beautiful. It was so beautiful there.

• 5:22Karen Kilgariff?

  It's the place to be these days.

• 5:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 5:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Cool. I'm glad you got to, uh, get away.

• 5:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Me too. Oh, we were talking about Wrath of Fire.

• 5:32Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, there's some great, I feel like we're back to the OG days of HBO documentaries. There's some amazing stuff out there, so we want to make sure no spoilers.

• 5:43Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 5:43Karen Kilgariff?

  I think it's the final episode of Wrath of Fire.

• 5:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Three, yes, we're one episode behind.

• 5:48Karen Kilgariff?

  So we just will say, it's very interesting to me that these simultaneous, and I actually don't know if the other one is also on, but The Anatomy of Lies about the great anatomy writer.

• 6:00Georgia Hardstark?

  I haven't watched that one yet either, yeah.

• 6:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh. So maybe when you're done with that one,

• 6:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 6:05Karen Kilgariff?

  you can come back and we'll have a kind of a lit comp conversation.

• 6:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 6:09Karen Kilgariff?

  Because they're similar and nothing alike and it is crazy.

• 6:13Georgia Hardstark?

  About someone pulling the wool over everyone's eyes.

• 6:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 6:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Pretending to be someone they're not, kind of a thing?

• 6:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, I'm kind of like, how much do we lie? How much do I lie? And how much do I feel like I need to lie?

• 6:26Georgia Hardstark?

  How much do you think you're actually lying when you are lying? Like, are you deceiving yourself?

• 6:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 6:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Two?

• 6:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Good one.

• 6:33Georgia Hardstark?

  If you believe it, is it a lie?

• 6:34Karen Kilgariff?

  And is that kind of rationalization, whether it's automatic or totally conscious? Is that why and how people get into cults or start cults or lead cults? Or it's all that kind of stuff of like, human beings and their brains are goddamn fascinating.

• 6:51Georgia Hardstark?

  The way they'll justify anything.

• 6:54Karen Kilgariff?

  And the way-

• 6:55Georgia Hardstark?

  That they do because to think that you're a bad person, no one thinks they're a bad person, right?

• 7:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Of course not.

• 7:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 7:01Karen Kilgariff?

  But people question it, but it's kind of more like, well, if I am, then I'm going to work on it this way. And then working on it makes you a worse person.

• 7:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 7:09Karen Kilgariff?

  But you can't admit it by the time you're done with it.

• 7:12Georgia Hardstark?

  My god.

• 7:12Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean-

• 7:13Georgia Hardstark?

  It goes around and around.

• 7:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Let's pretend we're smart and have a podcast.

• 7:19Georgia Hardstark?

  We've been doing it for almost nine years. Almost nine years, oh my god.

• 7:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Almost nine, coming up on-

• 7:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 7:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Not our nine year anniversary.

• 7:26Georgia Hardstark?

  We're in what, sixth, fifth, sixth grade?

• 7:29Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, emotionally? Yes. What was the question?

• 7:33Georgia Hardstark?

  I don't know. How will, what grade would we be in if we were a-

• 7:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, if we were nine years old?

• 7:40Georgia Hardstark?

  A child, yeah.

• 7:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Third grade, I think.

• 7:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Third, is that it? Okay.

• 7:43Karen Kilgariff?

  I had to ask Laura.

• 7:44Georgia Hardstark?

  What would we be in the gifted and talented program?

• 7:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, we'd be running that thing. We'd be calling teachers by their first name.

• 7:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Teacher, like, why isn't my favorite murder come, come on up here and teach this lesson on geography?

• 7:56Karen Kilgariff?

  We'd be like, Diane, we'd love to. Because what's the thing about geography, it's not about the details.

• 8:02Georgia Hardstark?

  No, no, no, no, no.

• 8:03Karen Kilgariff?

  It's about the colors of the map.

• 8:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Geography is not science.

• 8:08Karen Kilgariff?

  It's a personal love of ours.

• 8:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Exactly.

• 8:10Karen Kilgariff?

  It's not a science.

• 8:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Speaking of personal loves of ours.

• 8:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 8:14Georgia Hardstark?

  We have a podcast network.

• 8:16Karen Kilgariff?

  She's done it again.

• 8:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Hey.

• 8:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, I have, sorry.

• 8:19Georgia Hardstark?

  What?

• 8:20Karen Kilgariff?

  One piece of mail.

• 8:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, oh.

• 8:23Karen Kilgariff?

  This is a real email that we got. Hello from the team at BBC Studios, UK TV and Brit.

• 8:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, no.

• 8:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Dear Karen in Georgia, although we suspect this will mostly appeal to Karen.

• 8:36Karen Kilgariff?

  I am a day one listener. I've never missed an episode yet of my favorite murder. I also happen to be the chief communications and marketing officer for BBC Studios, which also owns BritBox and UK TV.

• 8:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Holy shit.

• 8:48Karen Kilgariff?

  And then they say, you can only imagine my total delight when I was on my morning run in cold, dark London. True crime is the perfect companion on a morning run. It keeps your pace up. When all of a sudden, your conversation turned to UK TV on the latest episode, Shoulders Back. Oh, that's the latest episode of our show. I was like, I've never heard of Shoulders Back. I have to see Shoulders Back. Instantly, I shared the episode with my team, Carrie at UK TV and Alana at BritBox. This is just a note to say we love and appreciate just how much Karen enjoys the shows we make. And if you're ever in the UK, let us know and we'd be delighted to see if we can get you on set to see some of your favorite British procedurals or period dramas being made. Just give us a shout. Best wishes, Susanna.

• 9:33Georgia Hardstark?

  I mean, that, that is for you. She's kissing it.

• 9:40Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm so excited. I'm sneezing. Excuse me. That was so loud, huh?

• 9:44Karen Kilgariff?

  No, the inhale, I thought you were gonna like say a big thing.

• 9:50Karen Kilgariff?

  I think it'd be like, oh my god.

• 9:52Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 9:54Georgia Hardstark?

  It's itchy. Okay.

• 9:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Like, bra jerk.

• 9:57Georgia Hardstark?

  That's really exciting for you. I'm so happy, but also for you.

• 10:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Susanna, we really appreciate you writing in. I'm, I'm beside myself with being seen and perceived in the world by the things I'm perceiving.

• 10:09Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm happy for you.

• 10:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Thank you.

• 10:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Speaking of that, how come not a single person today has mentioned my shirt?

• 10:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Can we get a good, like, not anyone in the fucking sound booth, nobody.

• 10:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Look, I thought it said Pookie and I didn't even look.

• 10:26Georgia Hardstark?

  It says.

• 10:27Karen Kilgariff?

  That's my dog.

• 10:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Vince made this for me. It's like a three dog moon, what is it, three wolf moon shirt, but with pictures of Cookie. This is the second version he's made me and it says Cookie, that's my dog. You can get it made somewhere on the internet and he's made me one of Mimi too over next week.

• 10:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Nice.

• 10:44Georgia Hardstark?

  But I just feel like, I wear this to bed and I wore it to this recording so that it would be on camera because.

• 10:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Genius.

• 10:51Georgia Hardstark?

  So I just really wanted to acknowledge it.

• 10:53Karen Kilgariff?

  I'm so sorry that I didn't, I was like, I don't know Pookie and I don't have to get involved with Pookie. That was my thinking.

• 10:59Georgia Hardstark?

  It's some internet meme and I refuse to ask about it.

• 11:02Karen Kilgariff?

  But also that's, that's how much I saw Pookie, I saw Cookie at the beginning, right before COVID.

• 11:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, right.

• 11:09Karen Kilgariff?

  And then I, I've only seen Cookie since on social media. So like I didn't immediately recognize her the way I wish I'd.

• 11:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Well, she's like green and purple and these, so it's a little weird, but.

• 11:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Right. And I thought her name was Pookie and it was a different dog.

• 11:24Georgia Hardstark?

  You know, I love my Pookie merch. Gotta get it out there.

• 11:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, now that we've settled all the important business.

• 11:33Karen Kilgariff?

  It's time for those ERM highlights.

• 11:35Georgia Hardstark?

  That's right. We have a podcast network. It's called Exactly Right Media. Here are some highlights.

• 11:39Karen Kilgariff?

  This week on the Bananas Podcast, comedian Chloee Radcliffe joins the Banana Boys to discuss weird news from around the world.

• 11:47Georgia Hardstark?

  And this week, Cara and Lisa from That's Messed Up and SVU Podcast cover SVU episode Gilt from 2002. And they also have a really fun new holiday ornament in the merch store. If you want to check that out, it's at ExactlyRightStore.com. There's tons of great merch from all our podcasts.

• 12:03Karen Kilgariff?

  On Wicked Words, Kate Winkler-Dawson talks to author Ellen J. Green about her book Murder in the Neighborhood, The True Story of America's First Recorded Mass Shooting, about a 1949 shooting in New Jersey.

• 12:16Georgia Hardstark?

  And also, we have an important merch corner update. So back in 2023, on episode 370, I covered the story of Pearl Heart, AKA The Bandit Queen, and ended up making a shirt featuring her iconic quote that I'll read to you in a second. And all the money from that sale, we donated to Planned Parenthood, and that was to the tune of $30,000 because of you guys.

• 12:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, and you guys bought those shirts and you donated. It was great. So with all the things that are happening in the world these days, and a bunch of people actually suggested this on social media, we decided we are going to bring back the Pearl Heart t-shirt. So head to Exactly Right Store and place your order by November 26. Proceeds will be donated to the ACLU and their effort to combat all of the threats to our civil rights that are now standing somewhere in a murky future that we are not sure about.

• 13:12Georgia Hardstark?

  So let's just see how much we can raise for that. And for reference, the Pearl Heart quote is from 1899, and it's, quote, "I shall never submit to be tried under the law that neither I nor my sex had a voice in making," end quote.

• 13:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Now that women are second-class citizens in America, and we have an incoming president who is very interested in not just keeping it that way, but expounding upon that, we all need to get ourselves together. We need to collect our thoughts and our plans, and we need to resist and never submit.

• 13:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes, let's.

• 13:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 13:50Georgia Hardstark?

  The holidays are coming, which means we'll all be spending more time away from home.

• 13:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Whether you're visiting family or doing something actually fun, you want to know your home is protected while you're away.

• 14:00Georgia Hardstark?

  That's why now is a good time to think about home security with SimpliSafe.

• 14:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Unlike traditional security systems that alert you after a break-in starts, SimpliSafe is designed to help stop intruders before they get inside. These days, you're worried about your house, you're out of town, and then something comes up and you get to look on your phone, and SimpliSafe is going to show you not only the video of like, it's a raccoon at your front door, but also that they have staff that's sitting there, they already know. And if it was something different or worse, they would have already been on it.

• 14:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, I really think that's invaluable peace of mind that just like relying on your neighbors, paying attention is not going to give you. We've partnered with SimpliSafe to offer our listeners their biggest savings of the year. 70% off your new system with professional monitoring when you visit simplisafe.com/mfm.

• 14:46Karen Kilgariff?

  That's simplisafe.com/mfm. And when you order, write in MFM at checkout and it tells them we sent you and it really helps the show.

• 14:54Georgia Hardstark?

  SimpliSafe, ahead of crime in real time.

• 14:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Goodbye. Nothing makes you take a good, hard look at your furniture like inviting people over for the holidays.

• 15:03Georgia Hardstark?

  So give your home a little holiday upgrade with Article.

• 15:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Article makes it effortless to create a stylish, long-lasting home at an unbeatable price.

• 15:11Georgia Hardstark?

  They take great care in curating their collection, focusing on pieces that stand the test of time. There's no filler. Every item is chosen for its craftsmanship, design, and lasting value.

• 15:20Karen Kilgariff?

  And with Article's 30-day satisfaction guarantee, you can shop with confidence, knowing that if you're not completely in love with your new furniture, you can easily return it.

• 15:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Plus, Article's customer care team is available seven days a week. I know we're getting into fall and winter, but we live in Los Angeles. So my outdoor furniture is just like the perfect focal point for the pool parties we still end up having. Sorry, everyone, when it's like sunny and gorgeous year round. I sit on my Article patio furniture every morning and have my coffee and watch Cookie Lay in the Sun. And the whole thing is just so peaceful and pretty. Article is offering our listeners $50 off your first purchase of $100 or more.

• 15:58Karen Kilgariff?

  To claim, visit article.com/murder and the discount will be automatically applied at checkout.

• 16:03Georgia Hardstark?

  That's article.com/murder for $50 off your first purchase of $100 or more.

• 16:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Goodbye. Cozy season is nearly upon us.

• 16:12Georgia Hardstark?

  That means crisp weather and soft layers.

• 16:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Prepare accordingly with fall staples from Bombas.

• 16:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Bombas has your favorite footwear for fall, including new suede moccasins with cushy soles, shearling lining, and water-resistant suede, plus soft slippers, slides, and booties.

• 16:27Karen Kilgariff?

  There's a Bombas sock for pretty much any fall occasion, from warm merino wool blends to sweat-wicking sport socks and dressier options for weddings.

• 16:35Georgia Hardstark?

  And for every Every Bombas item purchased, they donated an essential clothing item to someone facing housing insecurity with more than 200 million items donated so far. Okay, so when fall comes around, I have a pair of the Bombas booties pretty much in every room, so I can grab them when my feet inevitably become freezing, which they are constantly. And they're so comfy, you can wear them around the house, I wear them to bed, and they just make everything feel a little cozier.

• 17:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Head over to Bombas.com/MFM and use code MFM for 20% off your first purchase.

• 17:07Georgia Hardstark?

  That's B-O-M-B-A-S dot com slash MFM, code MFM at checkout.

• 17:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Goodbye.

• 17:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, I'm first. You're first. And I got a, I got a mystery, a weird mystery I hadn't heard of until this story was submitted to me by our team. And it's so odd, I can't believe I hadn't heard of it. You might have heard of it from an Unsolved Mysteries episode, because it is like, God, the, like, everything an Unsolved Mystery episode needs. So it takes place in New England, and it's kicked off by this awful tragedy, and then ends in the disappearance of Adam Emery. You know it? I think, well, is it the newest Unsolved Mysteries or the old? I don't know, I think it's the old. Because I looked at, man, those new ones, I feel like I've watched every episode three times.

• 18:01Georgia Hardstark?

  So the main sources for this story are an article in the Washington Post and an episode of Unsolved Mysteries, and the rest of the sources are in the show notes. All right, so here we are, August 31st, 1990. We're in Warwick, Rhode Island, and it's a seaside town, it's got a cute little amusement park called Rocky Point. And right by the amusement park, there's a little seafood shack, and that's where young married couple Adam and Elena Emery have gotten some dinner with another married couple, a friend of theirs, that evening, because they're celebrating Adam and Elena's second wedding anniversary. Adam is 27 and Elena is 29.

• 18:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Your face is already scared.

• 18:41Karen Kilgariff?

  It's so sad. Any of these stories that we tell are truly tragic because anytime you kind of drill down, it's like you want to say, oh, it's their second anniversary. They just started a life together. This is the saddest version of this story. And it's like, yes, except for then the next story you get where it's like they they've been together for 75 years. Now that's the saddest version. It's like.

• 19:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Well, it is, but for not the reason you think it is. So it's going to end in tragedy no matter what. The couples are eating in their car. Adam and Elena are up front and the other two are in the backseat and they're just eating and drinking beer and it's a typical summer evening in New England.

• 19:22Karen Kilgariff?

  I hope to God that the keys are out of the ignition because that's the difference between a DUI and not a DUI.

• 19:27Georgia Hardstark?

  And you know, I feel like the beer part is an important note in this. Guys, fucking don't drink and drive, please.

• 19:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Never drink and drive. But if you're chilling and the driver is totally sober, but everybody else has a beer, you do not get that beer out of that car before you put the keys in the ignition. I don't know why I know that. It could be.

• 19:47Georgia Hardstark?

  As he used to drink a lot.

• 19:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, drinking a lot, but then also that thing of like, don't just sit there, like, get all your shit ready just in case something happens.

• 19:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, well, so they're sitting there eating and suddenly everyone in the car jerks forward when another car hits them accidentally in the back driver's side bumper they get bonked into. No one's hurt, although the car is definitely dented. Adam's car is a 1985 Ford Thunderbird and he's known for keeping it in impeccable condition. Like, he really loves his car. So then it gets fucking smashed into.

• 20:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 20:22Georgia Hardstark?

  No one gets a great look at the car that's just hit them from behind because it's gunning it out of the parking lot already and turning the corner around the building and is just out of sight immediately. So it's a hit and run. The whole group tells Adam, like, fucking follow the car. Like, let's get its license plate. I'm sure they were all amped up, you know, when a whole group is yelling at you to do something. It's like, you get amped. Adam pulls out and turns out of the parking lot in the direction where that other car had gone. And as they round the corner around the same building, they find the car. They pull up behind a brown 1975 Ford LTD. Elena in the front insists that that's the car that hit them and they begin to follow it. So the people in the LTD start driving faster because they realize they're being followed.

• 21:07Georgia Hardstark?

  And so Adam does too, and they're kind of in this chase for like two miles. Finally, the LTD, the car in the front pulls over, or Adam cuts them off from the front. We don't know, accounts differ, but either way, they stop. So then Adam starts to get out of his car, but before he does, Elena tells him to bring the hunting knife he keeps in the car, just in case. Cause he's like, in his mind, he's like, I just got rear-ended, they took off, I'm gonna go confront them. She's like, who knows who this could be bringing the knife, which just isn't.

• 21:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Smart.

• 21:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Don't, don't get involved. Write down the license plate and leave.

• 21:45Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, it's so, we're so LA people, where it's like, oh, if somebody hits you from behind and they leave, like, God bless and goodbye.

• 21:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Have good insurance.

• 21:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Have good insurance and like, the risk of like, rage.

• 22:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, it's happened to me.

• 22:02Karen Kilgariff?

  It's crazy.

• 22:03Georgia Hardstark?

  When Vince first moved here from, you know, Michigan, and we were in the car together and he flipped someone off, and I was like, do not ever fucking do that again in LA.

• 22:12Karen Kilgariff?

  For real.

• 22:13Georgia Hardstark?

  This is shooting on the freeway, the road rage, which I'm really, I always read those news stories, I'm terrified of it.

• 22:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 22:21Georgia Hardstark?

  And something similar happened to me. It's like, don't get involved, don't get involved.

• 22:25Karen Kilgariff?

  It's very bad traffic out there, people are already pissed.

• 22:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Everyone's angry.

• 22:29Karen Kilgariff?

  Everyone's pissed all day long, and then you make a mistake, and it's like, first of all, let people merge, and if somebody makes a mistake, look to yourself and remember all the mistakes you've ever made and move it along.

• 22:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Yep, yep.

• 22:45Karen Kilgariff?

  This was a panicked, panicked moment of this is how you need to behave in a car, as if anyone needs to know any of this shit.

• 22:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Don't do drugs. Sometimes do drugs. Okay. Adam approaches the driver's side window of the other car, and the driver quickly throws the car into reverse and tries to speed away.

• 23:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Because he has a knife.

• 23:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 23:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 23:06Georgia Hardstark?

  But Adam is hanging on to the door. And it sounds like Adam winds up lying on the hood of the car with his arm and maybe his head through the driver's side window, like he's because I think the window's open and so he's like holding on as the car backs up and so he like kind of maybe gets thrown onto the hood with his head and body in the window. Does that make sense?

• 23:27Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, a little bit, but this is, I mean, we've already said it, sir, step away.

• 23:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. So somehow, while all this is happening, all this commotion, Adam gets the hunting knife out and stabs the driver in the heart. Uh huh. All this happens in a residential area. The car comes to a stop like on the lawn of someone's house. People quickly come out of their houses to help because they heard the commotion, but the driver who has been stabbed is in bad shape and is becoming unresponsive.

• 23:58Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, that's, okay.

• 24:01Georgia Hardstark?

  It's horrifying. An off-duty police officer is among the neighbors in the area. So police arrive quickly on the scene. When they get there, the driver is still alive but bleeding badly. And Adam is drinking a glass of water. I think he's like sitting on a porch, you know, drinking a glass of water that someone must have brought him. And he tells the officers, quote, "I did it," end quote. The driver is a young man named Jason Bass. He is 20 years old. He had spent the summer working at a food booth at that little amusement park. And he dreams of opening his own restaurant someday. He spent the summer dating a girl who also works at the amusement park. And he always lets her little brother tag along with them on their dates.

• 24:44Georgia Hardstark?

  In fact, it's this kid, the younger brother, a 15-year-old named John Gorman, who's a passenger in the car that night when Jason gets stabbed.

• 24:52Karen Kilgariff?

  Horrible.

• 24:53Georgia Hardstark?

  This poor 15-year-old kid is like... What the fuck? John is physically unharmed. Jason is brought to the hospital, but he dies before he even gets there. So Adam is arrested. He claims he was acting in self-defense. But the minute you get out of that car or you chase the other car, that's not self-defense anymore.

• 25:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Right. You're chasing a car and then you're, yeah, I mean, none of it feels like severe, just what we talked about. Severe rationalization.

• 25:21Georgia Hardstark?

  But John Gorman, the passenger from Jason's car, says that Adam had been screaming that he was going to kill Jason from the moment he got out of his own car. So when he got out with that knife, he was already screaming, "I'm gonna kill you."

• 25:34Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, that's what it all seems to be, where it's like, I don't know if I believe that his girlfriend said, "You should take this for protection." That doesn't make sense.

• 25:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 25:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Like, chasing a car and the car understanding that you are following it doesn't make sense. Where it's like, I bet, I would guess, just separate from all of this, that he cut them off and made them pull over.

• 25:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 25:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Right?

• 25:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Well, here's the worst part about this. I mean, there's so many worst parts. It's pretty certain that Jason Bass wasn't the person who rear-ended them at all. That they had the wrong car to begin with. Not that it would ever have been okay if he had rear-ended him, but it was, they're suddenly being chased by someone. They have no idea why. They stop, this guy gets out, and of course, you know, the guy comes at him with a knife saying, "I'm gonna kill him." Of course, like, puts the car in reverse and tries to drive, but he's like trying to leave the scene.

• 26:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 26:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Because he's afraid for his life. That's not self-defense. Didn't get the good stab.

• 26:34Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, it's like the most overt, that is self-defense. It's like, get me out of here.

• 26:38Georgia Hardstark?

  His is self-defense, not his, not the claim of self-defense.

• 26:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Right, right. Yeah, yeah.

• 26:44Georgia Hardstark?

  So, yeah, the paint samples don't match. It's not the car.

• 26:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Horrifying.

• 26:50Georgia Hardstark?

  I don't think the car is ever identified. So, this whole tragedy takes place in a pretty small community. It gets very ugly for the families on both sides. When Jason's mother goes to the store to buy a suit for Jason to be buried in, she explains the situation to the shopkeeper, and it turns out that Elena's sister is in the store at the same time, buying school uniforms for her children. And she starts screaming that Jason's mother isn't telling the truth and that Adam killed Jason in self-defense. Like, they're all...

• 27:22Georgia Hardstark?

  They're attacking the victim and the victim's family in this.

• 27:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 27:25Georgia Hardstark?

  It's pretty ugly.

• 27:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, right. And obviously, in a way where, well, not obviously, because this is just a theory, but it's like, if you're on the defense like that, you go back and tell your family, not, oh, my God, I can't believe we made this horrible mistake, or I can't believe, whatever, it's, it's the his fault, it's his fault, it's his fault.

• 27:47Georgia Hardstark?

  There's no critical thinking in this, and that's a big problem. You can, you can support someone and without having to defend them blindly, you know what I mean?

• 27:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 27:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Like, I'll be there for you, but you did this thing, and it's not okay.

• 28:02Karen Kilgariff?

  And now someone's son is dead.

• 28:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 28:04Karen Kilgariff?

  That's why the mom is in the store right now.

• 28:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 28:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Like, wow.

• 28:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Horrifying. It takes three years for the case to move through the courts. Adam is offered a plea deal with a charge of involuntary manslaughter and a sentence of about five years in prison, but he is so hell-bent on saying that it was self-defense that he refuses this very lenient deal. He actively killed someone.

• 28:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 28:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Stabbed someone, it wasn't accidental. And he says no to this deal. And he is adamant that it was in self-defense. He says that he had leaned into Jason's car and tried to turn the ignition off, and that while Jason was zigzagging and reversing for a distance of about 1,000 feet, Adam couldn't get free of the car and stabbed Jason to try to get him to stop, instead of letting go of the car.

• 28:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 28:50Georgia Hardstark?

  So in November of 1993, Adam, who's now 30, is found guilty of second-degree murder. He will carry a sentence of 10 years to life. And when the verdict is announced, Elena, who's now 32, is, she's sitting right behind Adam in the courtroom. She closes her eyes and whispers, quote, "It's my fault. I'm going to kill someone. There's hell to be paid." End quote. But the sentence structure seems a little weird. It's, this will be important in a minute, but Elena is actually born in Italy, and so she has a bit of an accent.

• 29:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 29:20Georgia Hardstark?

  She and her family moved to the States when she was a little girl, but Italian is her first language. Then she leans in and whispers something directly to Adam that no one can hear, but in the aftermath, lip readers are high. To watch the tape and decipher the words, how much you fucking love lip reading videos.

• 29:36Karen Kilgariff?

  That's one of my favorite things on TikTok. There's a they do it a lot with like professional sports.

• 29:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 29:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Or like if Taylor Swift is in the crowd somewhere.

• 29:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 29:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Hilarious.

• 29:46Georgia Hardstark?

  It makes me never talk to Vince in public anymore because I'm like, what if there are people, not that I'm saying anything important, but like, what if someone is out there and they can read lips and I'm just talking shit on someone?

• 29:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Right. Well, I mean, it's a good, these days when everything is recorded anyway. Zip it until you're in the vault at all times.

• 30:02Georgia Hardstark?

  That's right. That's right. Or at least cover your mouth like the sports guy.

• 30:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Talking into a microphone for year nine.

• 30:08Georgia Hardstark?

  To be kept in the vault forever.

• 30:11Karen Kilgariff?

  It's only.

• 30:12Georgia Hardstark?

  No, this look on the Smithsonian, probably, right? They have a vault? Do they have a secret vault?

• 30:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Right next to lawn chair Larry's big old chair.

• 30:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, okay. Back to the horrible stuff.

• 30:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay. Cause this is also, sorry, just for a reset. Just trying to think of like, it's a small town, the politics, the families, the passion, right? Nobody can be wrong in that situation because it's like, oh no, we're on this guy's side and this is.

• 30:36Georgia Hardstark?

  This is how we feel, periods. I mean, it's similar to the election.

• 30:39Karen Kilgariff?

  It's how people get through hard, horrible stuff. It's just like, well, let's just go fully black and white with this. And there's only one way is this, our guy is completely innocent. He's the true victim.

• 30:49Georgia Hardstark?

  And here are the facts to prove it. And it's like, both sides have those. They can't all be facts. It's both sides have differing facts, you know?

• 30:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 30:57Georgia Hardstark?

  It's like, just who do you want to believe? So when the lip readers decipher her words, she says, quote, "We will do what we originally said. You promised me we should have done this before," end quote. Here's the thing. This is so weird to me. Pending his sentencing, so he's found guilty and they're like, we're going to have your sentencing hearing. In the meantime, get on out of here. Go on home.

• 31:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 31:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Why are people released before sentencing after their trial on a murder charge, no less? Like, I get it on like a shoplifting charge.

• 31:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. They, it just depends on the person and the situation. But I think clearly there are people in that town, like, or in that courtroom who didn't think it was, that he would have done it if it wasn't that exact situation, maybe.

• 31:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. But they didn't think he was a threat for whatever reason. But because of this, the story turns and becomes an enduring mystery. So that very same evening, when he's let out after getting the guilty verdict, police are called to the Claiborne-Pell Newport Bridge, which crosses the Narragansett Bay. And it's this long, beautiful bridge. I mean, you know, we're talking Golden Gate looking, long and beautiful.

• 32:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Is it golden?

• 32:13Georgia Hardstark?

  It's, don't, I don't think so.

• 32:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay. Don't ask me.

• 32:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Right, no question. A car is idling in the right lane with the engine on and nobody inside it. And this is a big, long bridge. There shouldn't be a car empty and idling. At first, police think the car has simply been abandoned. But when they look inside the car, they find clothes, cash, cut up credit cards, and a driver's license. And it's Adam's driver's license.

• 32:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 32:39Georgia Hardstark?

  The clothes are the outfits that Adam and Elena wore in court that day. And it would appear that Adam and Elena have both died by suicide, jumping off the bridge into the bay. That's what the scene looks like. Right?

• 32:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Sure.

• 32:53Georgia Hardstark?

  But immediately, you're probably like, that looks a little too good, that their outfits are back there. You know what I mean? Like...

• 32:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, like it's, here's all the pieces you would need to believe that we

• 33:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 33:02Karen Kilgariff?

  just died by suicide.

• 33:04Georgia Hardstark?

  But also, like, why cut up your credit cards if you're about to jump off a bridge?

• 33:09Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, it's, it's a bit thorough.

• 33:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 33:11Karen Kilgariff?

  For if two, especially two people who are just like, yeah.

• 33:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Well, very quickly, of course, police start to wonder whether Adam and Elena faked their own deaths and are trying to go on the lam together. Investigators retrace Adam and Elena's steps between the verdict being read and the car being discovered. And so what happened is after the verdict, Adam and Elena had gone to a sporting goods store. They bought matching black sweat suits.

• 33:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Cool.

• 33:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Wrist and ankle weights.

• 33:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Awesome.

• 33:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Which points to them jumping.

• 33:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 33:44Georgia Hardstark?

  You know what I mean?

• 33:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, oh, God.

• 33:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Not the sweat suits, but the weights.

• 33:47Karen Kilgariff?

  That they would weigh themselves down first.

• 33:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. And also weights that would go around their waists. So that does point to them jumping. I don't know why they'd have to change clothes. Like, that's a little suspicious because... You know, like, they can't be identified by the clothes that they had on.

• 34:04Karen Kilgariff?

  But if they're trying to seem like they both died by suicide, then that is what, why wouldn't you want to be identified?

• 34:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Right, right. Yeah, that's a very odd piece. Then they go to Burger King and have dinner together, and both of these details wind up fueling doubts that the two really took their own lives.

• 34:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, your last meal is going to be Burger King.

• 34:25Georgia Hardstark?

  That's what they said, too, but it's like, maybe they hadn't decided just yet, and they're like, let's go eat something, and then they just decided to do it.

• 34:32Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, yeah, anything's possible.

• 34:33Georgia Hardstark?

  And I'm not gonna lie, like, Carl's Jr. wouldn't be ruled out as my last meal.

• 34:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Look, fast food on the whole

• 34:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 34:40Karen Kilgariff?

  gets the job done

• 34:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 34:41Karen Kilgariff?

  chemically.

• 34:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Mexican pizza, I mean,

• 34:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Goodbye.

• 34:45Georgia Hardstark?

  That's not the worst.

• 34:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Do, too.

• 34:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 34:47Karen Kilgariff?

  But, yeah, it's kind of pointing toward planning, but not planning for a finale.

• 34:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 34:54Karen Kilgariff?

  In my opinion.

• 34:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 34:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Because that's, you know.

• 34:58Georgia Hardstark?

  I just feel like the nostalgia of that can't be overlooked, you know what I mean? Like Burger King, whatever it was, like, that's your comfort food.

• 35:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, that's a really good point. Yeah.

• 35:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, and you're probably not in the mindset to go to fucking Chez Panisse or whatever.

• 35:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, you're not.

• 35:14Georgia Hardstark?

  And have a nice sit-down dinner.

• 35:15Karen Kilgariff?

  You're not gonna feel, well, and also, would you be allowed to? Like, is that, doesn't he, does he just have to go straight home?

• 35:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, I don't know, is he on house arrest? I have no idea.

• 35:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 35:24Georgia Hardstark?

  So the other thing is that Adam argued with the clerk at the sporting goods store over the cost of the sweatsuits, and people are like, why would he do this if he knew he was about to take his own life? But, I mean, old habits die hard, you know? People had seen Adam and Elena outside of their car on the bridge at about 5 o'clock that evening, but witnesses say they got back in the car and drove away. No one had seen them get out of the car or jump prior to the discovery of the empty car later that night, so they got there, they got out, they get back in and drive away, and at some point, no one saw them, but they drive back, and who knows what happened then?

• 36:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 36:01Georgia Hardstark?

  And maybe it was like, there's too many witnesses, we need to, like, leave and wait until there's less cars on the road.

• 36:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 36:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Or maybe they're like, I can't do this, I can't do it, let's go back.

• 36:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Let's go to Burger King.

• 36:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 36:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Let's go.

• 36:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 36:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Talk this over.

• 36:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. So the immediate suspicion, of course, is that Adam and Elena are trying to make their way to Italy, where Elena's family is from, which is why that fact that she's from Italy comes into play. However, here's a twist. Despite all of these circumstances, evidence emerges over the summer of 1994, so about eight months later, fishermen discover a skull in the Narragansett Bay, directly under the Claiborne-Pell Newport Bridge. This skull is sadly determined to be an indisputable match for Elena, based off of dental records of unique and extensive dental work on her upper jaw.

• 36:52Karen Kilgariff?

  Wow.

• 36:53Georgia Hardstark?

  And I'm immediately like, test it again, it's the 90s. Well, you know, but it's like, unique and extensive dental work.

• 36:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 36:59Georgia Hardstark?

  It's kind of hard to refute, but there's like always a small chance, but.

• 37:04Karen Kilgariff?

  But also, would it have been a skull by then? But also, I think like that, that turn of, I was so against them.

• 37:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 37:11Karen Kilgariff?

  And like, eh, no way.

• 37:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 37:13Karen Kilgariff?

  They got away. And then it's like, oh, no, she died. And it just like makes me feel so differently.

• 37:18Georgia Hardstark?

  I know.

• 37:19Karen Kilgariff?

  It's so weird.

• 37:20Georgia Hardstark?

  So sad.

• 37:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. Well, and also just, what was she talking about in the courtroom? Like, what was she referencing? What was that all about?

• 37:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Probably like, you can't go to jail, you can't go, like, you can't go to prison.

• 37:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 37:32Georgia Hardstark?

  We need to end this?

• 37:33Karen Kilgariff?

  I guess.

• 37:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Who knows? Like, for some people, the idea of prison or being apart for that long is just, I can't even fathom, like, that mindset, but.

• 37:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 37:45Georgia Hardstark?

  For them, it was like, not an option, maybe. Then around the same time, leg bones are also discovered in the bay, and these are first thought to be Adams' possibly, but later they're determined by an anthropologist to have belonged to a woman, but it's unclear for belonging to Elena. So obviously, the simplest explanation would be that both Adam and Elena really did die by suicide in November of 93. But after the apparent suicide and before the discovery of Elena's skull, numerous sightings of only Adam are reported in Connecticut, which is one state over from Rhode Island, as you well know, you're a geography scientist.

• 38:20Karen Kilgariff?

  One of my favorite pairings of states, is those two together. Oh, Laverne and Shirley.

• 38:26Georgia Hardstark?

  When these reports are made, Adam is not yet considered a fugitive, so they can't track those down because he's only supposed to be on bail. So, once he misses his sentencing hearing, then they're able to start running down these leads. During this period, the sightings follow geographical patterns, first in Connecticut, then Florida, then in France, then in Italy. But fucking witness sightings, I mean, come on.

• 38:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 38:51Georgia Hardstark?

  And he's, you know, he's kind of hard to miss. He's like a handsome Ken and Barbie type of guy. So it's not like, I don't think he'd blend very well because he is handsome.

• 39:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 39:01Georgia Hardstark?

  And so he would stand out a little bit.

• 39:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 39:03Georgia Hardstark?

  You know? So by the time he misses his sentencing hearing, though, the sightings have mostly died off. Those sightings are still reported from time to time. I know. And the FBI has considered Adam a fugitive as recently as 2017. They tweeted at the time, asking for tips, like they're still working on it and reminding the public to pay attention.

• 39:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Wow.

• 39:24Georgia Hardstark?

  And he still remains on their most wanted list. And that is the tragic story of the death of Jason Bass and the mysterious death of Elena Emery and the disappearance of Adam Emery.

• 39:35Karen Kilgariff?

  God dang.

• 39:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Right?

• 39:37Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes. I mean.

• 39:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Tell me, tell me.

• 39:41Karen Kilgariff?

  I just am thinking about when I was growing up, my cousins who lived next door, who weren't, aren't my real cousins, but they were like my older brothers and sisters. The girls had boyfriends that were kind of like dirtbaggy.

• 39:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Sketchy, yeah.

• 39:54Karen Kilgariff?

  And that's kind of what I'm thinking of. We're like, when things like this play out, a thing like this plays out, the story of, we're just sitting here innocently eating our sandwiches and drinking some beer and then we're rear-ended. And so then we go, like, every way that this story is laid out, like, trying to be explained, doesn't make sense in terms of, you get rear-ended and you're obsessed with your car.

• 40:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 40:21Karen Kilgariff?

  You're immediately out of your mind furious.

• 40:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 40:25Karen Kilgariff?

  And this happens when, like, somebody else is the victim, where you're then like, well, then they didn't do anything wrong. But it's like, did he do something wrong in the beginning, which is like smash a car and freak out and run away? Was there a reason he freaked out? Like, the guy that got out of the car was so scary and like enraged that he was like, I gotta get out of here. Oh, but none of that matters because it wasn't him.

• 40:47Georgia Hardstark?

  It wasn't him.

• 40:49Karen Kilgariff?

  But trying to put it together, like the logic of putting that together, which is like, clearly, there seems to be, have been a removal of like, why would a person run? Why would a person?

• 41:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 41:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Get out of there? Because the, the way it ended was so scary that it clearly started, at least slightly scary.

• 41:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 41:08Karen Kilgariff?

  His, his favorite thing in the world, his car was smashed into.

• 41:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 41:13Karen Kilgariff?

  And then the car drove away.

• 41:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. And then also like deflecting the blame the whole time that Elena said, that's the, that's the car. And she's sure of it. Elena said, grab the knife.

• 41:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 41:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Is that even true? You know, it's like,

• 41:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 41:26Georgia Hardstark?

  It's, he's not at fault in these instances because she pointed those things out.

• 41:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 41:31Georgia Hardstark?

  It's a good way to blame her for it.

• 41:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, or she's taking the fall because it's, he's a, he's a creep.

• 41:37Georgia Hardstark?

  And then at the very end.

• 41:38Karen Kilgariff?

  He kills her and then gets away.

• 41:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Or she thinks they're both going to do it and he doesn't, maybe?

• 41:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Maybe. Yeah, like, he's like, I was gonna run this whole time and I knew if I ran with you, Yeah. We'd get caught.

• 41:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 41:51Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, whatever, it's, I mean,

• 41:53Georgia Hardstark?

  So.

• 41:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Let's make up 55 scenarios because we won't know.

• 41:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my god. Geez.

• 42:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. Good one.

• 42:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Thank you.

• 42:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, that was a good one. Because we don't get an answer, right?

• 42:06Georgia Hardstark?

  No, I'm sorry.

• 42:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Hmm.

• 42:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Unless you just wanna like go with the obvious, which is like, they both did it. They both jumped off the bridge together.

• 42:14Karen Kilgariff?

  But the idea that there have been sightings of a person that aside from being good looking is just like,

• 42:20Georgia Hardstark?

  And in Italy, that's strange, but.

• 42:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Who knows?

• 42:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Who the fuck knows? You can't trust that shit.

• 42:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, that's true. I would just like one answer for that one by the time we're.

• 42:30Georgia Hardstark?

  I think her finding her skull is, is pretty like, if, yeah. I think if that hadn't happened, then we would have been like, yeah, they clearly ran.

• 42:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 42:39Georgia Hardstark?

  But that's so odd. Like, makes me wanna be like, test it again, you know? Because I don't want it to be her in a way also.

• 42:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, I just don't understand. It feels like if this is, if worst case scenario, this guy's the worst person all the way through. Then that would, that would all track of like, he's got an anger problem. He attacked this kid. He was just, and maybe they're on drugs, whatever the thing is that made him like, hang on to the car and not get off. Like that shit is scary.

• 43:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Who knows how much? He was drinking water when the cops got there, which to me is like, that's what you do when you get pulled over and you've been drinking.

• 43:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 43:17Georgia Hardstark?

  You know, you're like chugging water.

• 43:18Karen Kilgariff?

  There's a nice neighbor that sits you down on your, on your porch. I don't know. It just feels like any, it's, all of those things are just like,

• 43:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 43:26Karen Kilgariff?

  It doesn't happen to the average person that they end up on the hood of someone's car trying to reach in maybe with a knife for,

• 43:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 43:35Karen Kilgariff?

  For their own protection, but probably not.

• 43:37Georgia Hardstark?

  It doesn't, if the knife hadn't been there, everyone would have been, okay.

• 43:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Mm hmm.

• 43:41Georgia Hardstark?

  And bringing a knife to confront someone in a car is kind of premeditation, right?

• 43:47Karen Kilgariff?

  I think so.

• 43:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 43:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Bringing a knife to a car party?

• 43:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 43:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Why?

• 43:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 43:52Karen Kilgariff?

  Because also ultimately, what was it, to max $2,000 of damage?

• 43:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, right.

• 43:58Karen Kilgariff?

  What are you trying to do? What kind of lesson would you be teaching?

• 44:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 44:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 44:06Georgia Hardstark?

  The holidays are coming, which means we'll all be spending more time away from home.

• 44:09Karen Kilgariff?

  Whether you're visiting family or doing something actually fun, you want to know your home is protected while you're away.

• 44:15Georgia Hardstark?

  That's why now is a good time to think about home security with Simply Safe.

• 44:18Karen Kilgariff?

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• 44:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, I really think that's invaluable peace of mind that just like relying on your neighbors, paying attention is not going to give you. We've partnered with Simply Safe to offer our listeners their Biggest savings of the year. 70% off your new system with professional monitoring when you visit simplysafe.com/mfm.

• 45:01Karen Kilgariff?

  That's simplysafe.com/mfm. And when you order, write in MFM at checkout and it tells them we sent you and it really helps the show.

• 45:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Simply Safe, ahead of crime in real time.

• 45:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Goodbye. Cozy season is nearly upon us.

• 45:15Georgia Hardstark?

  That means crisp weather and soft layers.

• 45:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Prepare accordingly with fall staples from Bombas.

• 45:20Georgia Hardstark?

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• 45:31Karen Kilgariff?

  There's a Bombas sock for pretty much any fall occasion, from warm merino wool blends to sweat-wicking sports socks and dressier options for weddings.

• 45:39Georgia Hardstark?

  And for every Bombas item purchased, they donated an essential clothing item to someone facing housing insecurity with more than 200 million items donated so far. Okay, so when fall comes around, I have a pair of the Bombas booties pretty much in every room so I can grab them when my feet inevitably become freezing, which they are constantly. And they're so comfy. You can wear them around the house. I wear them to bed and they just make everything feel a little cozier.

• 46:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Head over to bombas.com/mfm and use code MFM for 20% off your first purchase.

• 46:11Georgia Hardstark?

  That's B-O-M-B-A-S dot com slash MFM, code MFM at checkout.

• 46:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Goodbye.

• 46:18Georgia Hardstark?

  There are a lot of things in life you think you'll magically know how to do once you're older.

• 46:22Karen Kilgariff?

  And investing is definitely one of them.

• 46:24Georgia Hardstark?

  But you don't have to become a financial expert to get started with Acorns.

• 46:28Karen Kilgariff?

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• 46:31Georgia Hardstark?

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• 46:36Karen Kilgariff?

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• 46:43Georgia Hardstark?

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• 46:48Karen Kilgariff?

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• 46:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Sign up today at acorns.com/mfm and Acorns will add a $5 bonus investment to your

• 47:04Karen Kilgariff?

  That's acorns.com/mfm.

• 47:07Georgia Hardstark?

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• 47:09Karen Kilgariff?

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• 47:14Georgia Hardstark?

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• 47:20Karen Kilgariff?

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• 47:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Results do not predict or represent the performance of any Acorns portfolio. Investment results will vary. Investing involves risk.

• 47:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Acorns Advisors LLC, an SEC-registered investment advisor. View important disclosures at acorns.com/mfm.

• 47:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Goodbye.

• 47:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay. All right. Let's all put our hunting knives down for a second. Please. And take a little bit of a left turn. Yes. To my story, which, when I opened it this weekend, I was like, yeah, that's right. So it starts on October 16th, 1869. Oh, dear. Yeah, in the quiet town of Cardiff in New York State. A local farmer named William Newell is digging a well on his property, and he's being helped out by a few hired hands. And they dig about three feet down into the dirt when one of their shovels strikes something solid. William tells the men it's probably a rock, and he goes into his house to get a pickaxe.

• 48:28Karen Kilgariff?

  And while he's gone, the rest of the crew keeps digging. And as they shovel more and more dirt away, they uncover something truly bizarre. Can I guess? Yes. Is it a giant? Yeah. Ah, I love this story. Yeah.

• 48:42Karen Kilgariff?

  The object in the dirt is huge, and it appears to have a massive foot.

• 48:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Can you imagine? I mean, so they keep digging, and before long, they've unearthed what looks to be the body of a very large man, a very large, petrified man. The workers estimate that this man is about 10 feet tall, and he's lying on his back like a corpse. There's no flesh, no hair, but he does have fingernails and Adam's apple muscle definition. And, quick listener warning, very prominent male genitalia. Oh, dear. Mom, and although his expression is peaceful, his body is contorted. One hand is crossing towards his very prominent male genitalia. The other is behind his back.

• 49:30Karen Kilgariff?

  His legs are turned to one side. So he's kind of like, seems to be in a state of unrest. When William Newell eventually returns with his pickaxe, he sees what's been uncovered and he's completely dumbfounded. Word spreads throughout Cardiff and within hours, a crowd has gathered at the Newell farm to take a look at the...

• 49:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Mmm, those good old fashioned crowds that gather.

• 49:56Karen Kilgariff?

  And this would be like Little House on the Prairie costumed crowd.

• 50:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, they'd bring a picnic.

• 50:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, they'd be like, "Ma!"

• 50:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Bring a hunk of cheese and some bread.

• 50:06Karen Kilgariff?

  And sarsaparilla.

• 50:07Georgia Hardstark?

  It's like the most entertaining thing that's happened to them in years.

• 50:11Karen Kilgariff?

  That will ever happen in the entire area. They dug something up.

• 50:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 50:16Karen Kilgariff?

  The end.

• 50:17Georgia Hardstark?

  It's like, here's what your town's gonna be known for for the rest of its life.

• 50:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Could have been two huge rocks and they would have been like, "This is amazing." Selling cotton candy.

• 50:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Chewing cud and stuff. They call it fairy floss back then, didn't they?

• 50:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, did they?

• 50:28Georgia Hardstark?

  I think it's British, I don't know.

• 50:31Karen Kilgariff?

  This is the story of the so-called Cardiff Giant. A discovery emblematic of the power and pitfalls of American ingenuity, opportunism, and capitalism.

• 50:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Hey, all your favorite things.

• 50:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Those are my top three.

• 50:45Georgia Hardstark?

  So punk.

• 50:46Karen Kilgariff?

  The sources used in today's story are a 2005 article from Archaeology Magazine by a writer named Mark Rose entitled, "When Giants Roamed the Earth," a book by Scott Tribble. The title of the book gives it away, so we'll just keep it moving. But thank you to Scott Tribble. And then a 2014 article in the Press and Sun Bulletin Newspaper by Gerald R. Smith and George Bazler. And again, the title of that article gives it away. The rest of the sources can be found in our show notes. So, we're back on William Newell's farm. More and more people are showing up to gawk at the buried giant. This is what I love.

• 51:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Picture old timey Karen there in her beautiful...

• 51:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Calico, a hand-sewn dress.

• 51:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 51:33Karen Kilgariff?

  And bonnet.

• 51:34Georgia Hardstark?

  It's made out of flower sacks?

• 51:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Flower sacks, because I'm very, very poor.

• 51:39Georgia Hardstark?

  I don't know why.

• 51:40Karen Kilgariff?

  But I have a certain je ne sais quoi that's keeping me going.

• 51:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Where did she get that diamond necklace?

• 51:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, my God, she's a stealer.

• 51:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Do you guys know her? She's a stealer, like on the football team.

• 51:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, so these crowds are getting larger by the hour, but William doesn't like it at all. He claims to be worried that all of this interest is going to disrupt the farm. It's going to make it hard for him to work and provide for his family. And he also tells this crowd of friends and neighbors, he has to rebury the giant and just to stop telling people about it. Because we're just going to bury it back.

• 52:16Georgia Hardstark?

  He's essentially like a classic get off my lawn.

• 52:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 52:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Right?

• 52:19Karen Kilgariff?

  The, the original.

• 52:23Karen Kilgariff?

  But of course, that only adds to the intrigue. So then more people show up to the new farm, this time from outside of town.

• 52:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, wow, outside of town.

• 52:32Karen Kilgariff?

  And then reporters show up.

• 52:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 52:34Karen Kilgariff?

  So suddenly the Cardiff Giant is being talked about in newspapers across the region. And crowds of onlookers continue to swell. In response, William basically says, if you can't beat him, join him. So instead of shooing people away, he decides to throw a big tent over the uncovered giant, still lying in the ground where it was first uncovered. And then he starts charging 25 cents admission to go see.

• 52:59Georgia Hardstark?

  That's a lot, right?

• 53:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 53:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Does it have, do you have today's money?

• 53:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Uh huh, well, a couple of days after that, he bumps it up to 50 cents.

• 53:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Shit.

• 53:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Which is $20 in today's money.

• 53:11Georgia Hardstark?

  That's a lot.

• 53:12Karen Kilgariff?

  It really is, especially for people in 1869.

• 53:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, you didn't have that kind of.

• 53:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Not unless you owned the, the, I was going to say.

• 53:21Georgia Hardstark?

  The old mill?

• 53:21Karen Kilgariff?

  The corner store, but yeah, it would have to be the old mill, I think. So people happily pay. In the first week alone, 2,500 people show up to see the Cardiff Giant. And they say that there was something undeniably powerful about the scene at the Newell Farm. An academic who co-founded Cornell University, Andrew White, describes the scene this way. He says, quote, "The roads were crowded with buggies, carriages, and even omnibuses from the city, and with lumber wagons from the farms, all laden with passengers. Lying in its grave, with the subdued light from the roof of the tent falling upon it,

• 54:01Karen Kilgariff?

  and with the limbs contorted as if in a death struggle, it produced a most weird effect. An air of great solemnity pervaded the place. Visitors hardly spoke above a whisper."

• 54:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Because you know what's so crazy about that? You wouldn't have seen a picture of it first and then gone to see it, right?

• 54:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, correct.

• 54:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Like, maybe a drawing in the newspaper.

• 54:20Karen Kilgariff?

  If that, but like, you would have only ever heard of this in-

• 54:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Description, yeah.

• 54:25Karen Kilgariff?

  In just in tales and stories.

• 54:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 54:28Karen Kilgariff?

  So you're going to see a thing that no one's really ever seen before.

• 54:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 54:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, I mean, yeah.

• 54:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 54:35Karen Kilgariff?

  So, God, I would have gone, I would-

• 54:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Of course you would have.

• 54:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Sold my youngest child. So as the word of Cardiff Giant continues to spread, people remain mystified as to what this thing actually might be. Theories, of course, begin to swirl. Some believe it's an ancient giant who once lived in the area, I guess.

• 54:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Sure.

• 54:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Lived and breathed, and then turned to stone. He was buried for so long. It's kind of weird, but at the time, petrified objects and giants were kind of zeitgeisty.

• 55:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 55:07Karen Kilgariff?

  So, there had been several fossil discoveries in both the 1700s and the 1800s that today we understand belong to extinct species, but at the time, they were just kind of getting uncovered and nobody knew what they were.

• 55:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Have fun.

• 55:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Also, in the ultra-religious 19th century, when much of the US population is not educated in science, let alone the burgeoning field of paleontology, these fossils are sometimes connected to biblical figures. So, that includes the giant Goliath of David and Goliath fame. So, it'd be easy to believe that a giant would be found because if they're finding these other creatures and then someone's going, "Well, this is the..."

• 55:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 55:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Whatever.

• 55:51Georgia Hardstark?

  That's science.

• 55:52Karen Kilgariff?

  That's science, friend. One person telling you something.

• 55:56Karen Kilgariff?

  So there's a decent amount of people who think this oversized human from a prehistoric race has been petrified in the earth, but the same amount of skeptics see the Cardiff Giant feel it is not human. They think it's a prehistoric statue.

• 56:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Hmm.

• 56:14Karen Kilgariff?

  And others think it's a more recent creation of a hoaxer. So one of the many people in that latter camp is the writer Andrew White, who I just quoted. He immediately dismisses the Cardiff Giant as a statue and not even a well-made one. To White, the Giant doesn't share the obvious qualities of other prehistoric finds. At the same time, the Giant himself, quote, "betrays the qualities of a modern performance of a low order."

• 56:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Ouch. That's some fucking old timey shade right there.

• 56:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Andrew White was like, "He knew."

• 56:48Georgia Hardstark?

  And another thing.

• 56:50Karen Kilgariff?

  And he takes his one monocle, his monocle off.

• 56:53Georgia Hardstark?

  And he's the Monopoly man.

• 56:55Karen Kilgariff?

  It's him, Andrew White, that went on to found Monopoly, the board game. So essentially, yeah, White is saying it's an artist who isn't particularly talented. It is not what you think it is.

• 57:06Georgia Hardstark?

  He's like in a rat battle with him and he just fucking won.

• 57:08Karen Kilgariff?

  He just slammed that monocle down. So as more skeptics insist that the Cardiff Giant is just a bunch of carved stone, audiences still come out in droves to marvel at it. And it's hugely popular and of course becomes very a lucrative attraction. In less than a week after the discovery, William Newell sells the majority stake in the Giant as a concept, two-thirds ownership, to a small group of New York businessmen for $30,000, which in today's money...

• 57:40Georgia Hardstark?

  $250.

• 57:41Karen Kilgariff?

  $700,000.

• 57:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Holy, that man.

• 57:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 57:46Georgia Hardstark?

  That's, you know what's so cool about that? I wonder if he also was like perpetuated the rumor that it's a hoax. Cause I bet more people came when someone was like, "It's a hoax, I bet." And people are like, "I need to go see for myself and decide."

• 58:00Karen Kilgariff?

  And pay my own good $20 that I absolutely don't have.

• 58:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 58:04Karen Kilgariff?

  To figure this out.

• 58:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Sorry, kids, you're not eating this month.

• 58:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. I'll decide if this is a hoax or not.

• 58:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Mommy needs to fucking...

• 58:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes. You can gnaw on your, uh, on your bed frame. We'll get through this.

• 58:16Georgia Hardstark?

  It's made of corn cobs. I mean, it's fucking edible.

• 58:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Since everything's made of corn cobs, I think you're gonna be okay.

• 58:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay, so of course with the Cardiff Giant's overnight fame comes overnight drama. Because down in New York City.

• 58:34Georgia Hardstark?

  New York City.

• 58:36Karen Kilgariff?

  New York City. The situation is getting heard about and guess who gets wind of it? P T Barnum.

• 58:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Hey.

• 58:44Karen Kilgariff?

  He immediately wants in. He would later say, quote, "One thing was certain. It was a great attraction, visited by hundreds of people daily, and I thought that so great a curiosity should be exhibited under proper management in New York City. I therefore approached the providers and said, 'I will give you $50,000 for your Cardiff Giant as it is.'"

• 59:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Huh.

• 59:05Karen Kilgariff?

  $50,000 back then is how much in today's money.

• 59:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Eight fifty.

• 59:10Karen Kilgariff?

  That's 1.2 million dollars.

• 59:12Georgia Hardstark?

  God damn it, I'm got it, man.

• 59:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay, so it's time math.

• 59:16Georgia Hardstark?

  I can buy a lot of corn cobs. Time math is really fucking hard.

• 59:20Karen Kilgariff?

  We've never gotten good at it on this show. But the Cardiff Giant brings in $12,000 in its first few displays on the farm. That's worth over a quarter of a million dollars today. So William Newell and his investors turn P T Barnum down.

• 59:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Damn.

• 59:37Karen Kilgariff?

  Because they are making bank.

• 59:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Nobody turns P T Barnum down.

• 59:40Karen Kilgariff?

  You're exactly right, because P T Barnum then decides he's going to send a sculptor up to the New Hall Farm and that sculptor will bring a little ball of wax and then right there on site, the sculptor makes a miniature replica of the Giant.

• 59:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Hmm.

• 59:57Karen Kilgariff?

  And using that replica, Barnum then commissions a full-size copy of the Cardiff Giant using measurements that have been widely reported in newspapers.

• 1:00:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, no.

• 1:00:07Karen Kilgariff?

  And in no time, Barnum has his own perfect dupe, his Cardiff Giant, and he puts it on display in New York City.

• 1:00:13Georgia Hardstark?

  You gotta trademark that shit.

• 1:00:15Karen Kilgariff?

  It is the first case of IP infringement. I mean, it's such a sad, true fact where it's like, we got our thing and now we're the king of the world.

• 1:00:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:25Karen Kilgariff?

  But it weighs 500 tons and it's set in the ground.

• 1:00:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:30Karen Kilgariff?

  And therefore, you're just ripe for the pickin' if anyone to come by. A little ball of wax.

• 1:00:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:37Karen Kilgariff?

  You just make a miniature. So the men who own the original Cardiff Giant, of course, are furious at P T Barnum. That anger is only magnified by the fact that the copycat pulls in more visitors than theirs.

• 1:00:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Of course.

• 1:00:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Because it's New York City. Especially because the real giant has actually been excavated from William Newell's farm and they were actively touring New York State. So it could have been them.

• 1:01:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:03Karen Kilgariff?

  In a lot of ways. Historians Gerald R. Smith and George Basler report, quote, "The imitation giant grew sizable crowds while the original giant flopped. For example, only 50 people showed up on the second day of the original giant's tour. The lack of success led to one of its owners to coin the immortal phrase, 'There's a sucker born every minute,' as a commentary on the crowds of people who lined up to see Barnum's fake giant."

• 1:01:32Georgia Hardstark?

  What? I love the origins of sayings. That is crazy.

• 1:01:37Karen Kilgariff?

  And in a final irony, the phrase is now attributed to Barnum, although he didn't say it, you could say he stole both the giant and the phrase.

• 1:01:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Damn.

• 1:01:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Sad.

• 1:01:47Georgia Hardstark?

  It's funny. It's ironic, though, that he said that about Barnum. Okay. Leshadowing.

• 1:01:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes. Okay, so the owners of the original Cardiff Giant attempt to get an injunction to stop Barnum from displaying his replica. But the skeptical judge writes their concerns off with a sarcastic comment, saying, quote, "Bring your giant here, and if he swears to his own genuineness as a bona fide petrification, you shall have the injunction you ask for."

• 1:02:14Georgia Hardstark?

  You know, he's in fucking P T Barnum's pocket, right?

• 1:02:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, how about we listen to the rest of the story and then you see, maybe this judge knows what he's talking about. So with that judge refusing to protect the original, the floodgates open and the sculptor who made Barnum's giant quickly churns out several more, which are advertised in shows across the country. The Philadelphia Inquirer even weighs in, writing, quote, "It is rather rich that we should be victimized by such a fraud upon a fraud." So just like, these things won't stop coming. Then in early 1870, any remaining mystery around the Cardiff Giant's authenticity totally fades, because that's when a man comes forward claiming he's the brains behind the whole thing. That man's name is George Hull. So George Hull

• 1:03:02Karen Kilgariff?

  is the kind of guy who stands out in a crowd. So in an era when the average man is around five foot seven, George is six foot three. At a time when Americans are overwhelmingly Christian, George is an atheist, and a very vocal atheist. And according to Gerald R. Smith and George Basler, he, quote, "resembles the stereotypical villain in a melodrama with slicked-back hair, a mustache, a piercing stare, and black clothes from his shoes to his plug hat."

• 1:03:31Georgia Hardstark?

  I mean, sounds hot, right?

• 1:03:32Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, what's up? So, very fitting for a man described as a shady opportunist. The same newspaper notes that, quote, "criminal may be too strong a word for George Hull, but schemer certainly applies." End quote. While writer Scott Tribble reports that he, quote, "had no qualms about breaking partnerships or laws to get what he wanted." So, George Hull, classic bad guy.

• 1:03:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, villain.

• 1:03:59Karen Kilgariff?

  He started out in his con artistry as a horse trader. That was a well-known, ethically questionable job involving downplaying a horse's flaws and putting all responsibility on the buyers to ask the right questions ahead of a sale.

• 1:04:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Classic.

• 1:04:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. Basically, Maren wrote, "Think used card dealers, but in the 19th century." So Hull eventually graduates to a rigged gambling scheme where an accomplice would sell marked decks to saloons and hotels, and then George would go in and charm unsuspecting patrons into playing games against him with those same cards. He repeats this fraud throughout the Northeast until the early 1850s, more than a decade before the Cardiff Giant is discovered, when he's finally arrested, passing through Broome City, New York. Hull serves a stint in jail there, then he gets back on his feet with the help of his brother, who happens to live in the area. George responds to his brother's kindness by marrying his 16-year-old daughter Helen.

• 1:05:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Yikes.

• 1:05:01Karen Kilgariff?

  George's biological niece.

• 1:05:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Do not do that, please.

• 1:05:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Very much against the family's wishes and 19th century standards. This is disturbing and scandalous. They become social outcasts, and the scrutiny actually becomes so intense that they move on to a farm in a far-flung part of the county. There, George works in the tobacco industry, making and selling cigars. But he also tries his hand at inventing. He later claims to have come up with a, quote, "harnessed snap, out of which I ought to have made myself rich, but I didn't," end quote. And that's because George, he invents this harnessed snap, and then he immediately sells it for $300, which is roughly, how much today?

• 1:05:44Georgia Hardstark?

  $1,500.

• 1:05:45Karen Kilgariff?

  $300?

• 1:05:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:47Karen Kilgariff?

  $11,000.

• 1:05:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Goddamn it.

• 1:05:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Today. Later, he finds out that the buyer of the patent made over $400,000 from it.

• 1:05:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Shit.

• 1:05:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Which would be how?

• 1:05:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, 2.7.

• 1:06:01Karen Kilgariff?

  $15 million today.

• 1:06:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Damn.

• 1:06:04Karen Kilgariff?

  So, he's got a chip on his shoulder.

• 1:06:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Sure.

• 1:06:06Karen Kilgariff?

  If all of that is true. But these experiences fuel his transformation from a small-time con with questionable morals into a deeply disgruntled member of society who has a particular chip on his shoulder about religion. George engages in explosive, exhausting debates on religion with his neighbors. Those debates are described as pyrotechnic by the New York Daily Tribune. And writer Scott Tribble adds, quote, "The salvos against religion reflected not only Hull's longstanding skepticism, but also his growing dissatisfaction with the society that shunned him and his wife."

• 1:06:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, friend.

• 1:06:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Do you mean your niece?

• 1:06:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Do you mean that teenager in your life?

• 1:06:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Which one are you talking about?

• 1:06:50Karen Kilgariff?

  There's a really hilarious TikTok I saw that was like, "Guys will defend dating teenage girls, but when you say, 'Well, then why don't you hang out with teenage boys? They don't know what you're talking about.'" We're still in the quote. Mainstream and religious society were largely one in the same at this point in history, and George's atheism was fast taking on a more general misanthropy. So, we're going to fast forward to 1866. This is now three years before the Cardiff Giant is uncovered. George, who is in his mid-40s, is in Iowa on business, and during this trip, he finds himself in yet another heated debate about religion, this time with a traveling preacher. The men argue over the Bible, which the preacher interprets literally,

• 1:07:34Karen Kilgariff?

  and George thinks is a complete fabrication. Eventually, they part ways, but George can't shake the conversation. So that night, as he's laying in bed, he fixates on a specific Bible verse that says, quote, "There were giants in the earth in those days." So, George hatches a plan to make the pious look blindly loyal, if not flat-out foolish. He decides he's going to create his own giant, pass it off as the real deal, and then basically let it be discovered as a hoax and make everybody look stupid. And he also, he's pretty sure the idea could make him a small fortune. So the plan starts about two years later, in 1868,

• 1:08:17Karen Kilgariff?

  after George cashes out his cigar business in Broom County, heads back to Iowa, hires men to lift an enormous five-ton block of gypsum from a local quarry, under the false pretense that it'll be used to sculpt a statue of Abraham Lincoln. Abraham Lincoln had just been assassinated three years earlier. George then arranges for that gypsum to be shipped to Chicago, where he hires a stonecutter and sculptors, all sworn to silence.

• 1:08:45Georgia Hardstark?

  This is so much work to prove a point.

• 1:08:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 1:08:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Like, maybe that's what I need in my life, is more like, what is it, a vendetta against someone, get me to do shit? Because otherwise, this sounds exhausting.

• 1:08:59Karen Kilgariff?

  You do know this is your job, right?

• 1:09:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh.

• 1:09:01Karen Kilgariff?

  You do shit all the time.

• 1:09:03Georgia Hardstark?

  I mean, more than my job, you know, like, leave the house.

• 1:09:06Karen Kilgariff?

  What? Knitting, more quilting? Oh, just go outside.

• 1:09:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, just go outside.

• 1:09:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Just go outside.

• 1:09:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Put clothes on, take a shower.

• 1:09:14Karen Kilgariff?

  I do think that that thing, self-righteousness, is quite an engine.

• 1:09:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:19Karen Kilgariff?

  So, speaking from personal experience, where you're just kind of like, well, I'll have you know. That energy gets you right up and out of the house a lot of the time.

• 1:09:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, being doubted is a good source of energy for me.

• 1:09:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:31Georgia Hardstark?

  You know?

• 1:09:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. I doubt you could get off the couch. Anyway.

• 1:09:35Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm gonna show her.

• 1:09:36Karen Kilgariff?

  You saved my life. What I also love is all those kinds of hoaxes. There are at least five people keeping their mouth shut.

• 1:09:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Which I always think is fascinating. Because it's like, how do we find more people like you?

• 1:09:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 1:09:51Karen Kilgariff?

  To be in the world?

• 1:09:51Georgia Hardstark?

  You don't, because they're keeping their mouth shut.

• 1:09:53Karen Kilgariff?

  That's right.

• 1:09:53Georgia Hardstark?

  You'll never know.

• 1:09:54Karen Kilgariff?

  They're like, you'll never know. And I won't have a deathbed confession. I'm the type that actually understands taking secrets to the grave.

• 1:10:01Georgia Hardstark?

  I hate it.

• 1:10:02Karen Kilgariff?

  So George R. Smith and George Bazler report, quote, "George Hull was a hands-on boss, supervising the work and hanging carpets and quilts on the walls to deaden the sound of the chiseling. He even supplied the sculptors with a steady supply of beer to keep them happy." So then, in September of 1868, when the artist showed George their finished product, he's worried that that stone looks too pristine and new, so he throws together a cocktail of chemicals and douses his giant until it has a more distressed look. And then he takes a bunch of needles, pokes them into a piece of wood, and uses it to hit the stone over and over so that it appears to have pores.

• 1:10:45Georgia Hardstark?

  So what people do to jeans, right? To make them look worn in.

• 1:10:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes. And, what is this?

• 1:10:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, microneedling.

• 1:10:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Microneedling. Yeah. Eventually, George is satisfied. The giant is put into a massive box that's marked as finished marble and transported by rail to New York. When it arrives, it's put into a wagon, it's halted in Newell Farm in Cardiff, because it turns out William Newell is George Hull's cousin.

• 1:11:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Hey.

• 1:11:10Karen Kilgariff?

  He's been in on the whole thing the whole time. Yeah, exactly. Shit. Yeah. In a way, he married him in dishonesty. Yeah. In the marriage of dishonesty. So he knew the whole time. He knew the whole time. It was acting. Which also is like, oh, that's right. You had the workers dig it up. And then, once you hit it, you're like, I'll be right back. So that I don't have to stand here pretending to be surprised. Okay. So they get to the final step. Obviously, they bury the giant together. And then George Hull waits and waits. An entire year passes. And then in October of 1869, George gives William the green light to hire and then lead the oblivious workers to the exact location

• 1:11:53Karen Kilgariff?

  under the guise that William is digging a well. Then, once the giants unearthed, William plays dumb. George is still managing the entire scene and situation from the shadows. And from start to finish, it took George about three years to bring this spiteful dream to fruition, as well as around $2,600. Oh, my God. Which in today's money would be worth... Don't tell me. 1.5. $60,000. God damn it. This is like, the worst I've ever done. You overcorrected that to the last number. In the end, Hull does exactly what he set out to do. Some of his marks are indeed faithful people. Meanwhile, he makes a big return on his investment after striking a deal with the local businessman

• 1:12:37Karen Kilgariff?

  who invest in it. But now, with P T Barnum cutting into the Cardiff Giants ticket sales, George is not happy. So in December of 1869, George Hull comes forward as the creator of the Cardiff Giant. Scott Tribble suggests George's motivation here is quite simply another opportunity to cash in. When George comes forward, he duly pitches a tell-all book on how he came up with the whole hoax. It's kind of good business. Like, I have an announcement and then a second announcement. Although, Maren then notes here to me, doesn't seem like that book ever got written. So, back on tour, the Cardiff Giants operators are trying to figure out their next move. They ultimately decide to take the giant to Boston,

• 1:13:20Karen Kilgariff?

  hoping that the distance from New York City will at least let them draw a crowd for a little while longer. This works for a few months. And this is so far, it's so long ago that like, no one knew it was fake. I know geography. And Boston's not that fucking far from New York. Like... So you do now know geography, or you don't? I know it well.

• 1:13:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Told you.

• 1:13:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Now you're claiming you do know.

• 1:13:43Georgia Hardstark?

  I've told you this for almost nine years.

• 1:13:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay, I see.

• 1:13:46Georgia Hardstark?

  It's one of my favorite subjects.

• 1:13:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, right. That's right. But it was so long ago that it would be like, I don't even know if these guys were around, where you could be like, news on the Cardiff Giant.

• 1:13:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Right, that's true.

• 1:13:57Karen Kilgariff?

  No one was doing it. So, among those who come to see the Cardiff Giant when it's in Boston is none other than Ralph Waldo Emerson, who describes it as, quote, "astonishing."

• 1:14:08Georgia Hardstark?

  He believes it.

• 1:14:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Whoa.

• 1:14:09Georgia Hardstark?

  What a dumbass.

• 1:14:10Karen Kilgariff?

  What a rube. But the Cardiff Giant's allure is quickly nosediving. In addition to the failed injunction against P.T. Barnum, the dwindling interest from crowds, the growing number of skeptics, and of course, George Hull, who is shopping his own tell-all story around. The sculptors who carve the giant come forward and accuse George Hull of never paying them.

• 1:14:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh shit, you can't do that.

• 1:14:34Karen Kilgariff?

  He pulled a full Donald Trump and just didn't pay the workers.

• 1:14:37Georgia Hardstark?

  People can't keep secrets when they don't have their pockets lined.

• 1:14:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, they should not have to be expected to. So, alongside all this bad press, the Cardiff Giant, which was once considered a marvel, now settles into its identity as a sideshow oddity.

• 1:14:53Georgia Hardstark?

  It's still kinda cool, though.

• 1:14:54Karen Kilgariff?

  It's great.

• 1:14:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:56Karen Kilgariff?

  The whole concept is...

• 1:14:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Is...

• 1:14:58Georgia Hardstark?

  And that's got even better stories.

• 1:14:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Human innovation.

• 1:15:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Less than a year after it's dug up on the Newell Farm, the Cardiff Giant quickly fades into obscurity. But the appetite for unearthed prehistoric, quote-unquote, "humans" does not dwindle. In fact, George Hull's hoax sparks a wave of similar discoveries across the country. Among the most famous is the Solid Muldoon. You ever heard of the Solid Muldoon?

• 1:15:24Georgia Hardstark?

  No. It sounds like something you do to like, to fuck with your little brother or something. I gave him the old Solid Muldoon.

• 1:15:33Karen Kilgariff?

  The old Solid Muldoon. The Solid Muldoon was dug up in Colorado in the mid-1870s. It's billed as a seven-foot-tall, prehistoric, petrified man, who, in a twist, appears to have a tail. The Solid Muldoon is quickly put on display for ten cent admission, and it's touted as, quote, "the missing link between man and apes." Oh, and also, you can tell Vince this if he gives a shit. The Solid Muldoon was said that he was named after either famous wrestler of the day, William Muldoon, or Muldoon Hill. Just getting a little wrestling trivia in there. And I know there's a bunch of murderinas with wrestling passions crossover.

• 1:16:13Georgia Hardstark?

  There is. We watch wrestling and My Favorite Murder. You know, they're so similar.

• 1:16:17Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, very spiritually similar. But the Muldoons' mystery doesn't last. A chatty insider spills the truth and word spreads that it's yet another fake. And then, in perhaps the least surprising twist, the man behind this creation is also George Hull.

• 1:16:35Georgia Hardstark?

  I swear to God, this is reminding me when I was a little kid. We went to like some shitty carnival with my dad. I don't even know where it was. And it was like, walk through the tunnel of like, you know, man eating fish. And it was like all spooky noises. And it was like the saddest carcass of a fish hanging by threads. I've ever, even as a seven year old, I was like, this is bunk.

• 1:16:55Karen Kilgariff?

  So fake.

• 1:16:56Georgia Hardstark?

  This is like, we paid extra tickets to go see this.

• 1:16:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:59Georgia Hardstark?

  And this is like, embarrassing.

• 1:17:01Karen Kilgariff?

  It's so embarrassing. And also, you know, not no brag, but we would kind of live at the fair every year when we had to go do for each stuff.

• 1:17:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:09Karen Kilgariff?

  And so we got to see all of that where it's like, this horse stands 21 hands high, whatever. And you'd hear it like playing all day long.

• 1:17:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Exactly. It is the man eating fish of a thousand.

• 1:17:21Karen Kilgariff?

  And you just, maybe it was because our parents gave us the money to then satisfy that curiosity. Then we immediately were like, they ripped us off. And then it's like, most kids never have that experience.

• 1:17:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:32Karen Kilgariff?

  And they have it when they're like 24.

• 1:17:34Georgia Hardstark?

  I got my nose pierced at the Harvest Festival when I was 13. There was like a piercing, ear piercing booth. I was like, Haley, do my nose? And this fucking lady was like, do you have your mom here? And I just grabbed some lady drinking a beer and I was like, Haley, tell them you're my mom. She was like, sure, honey. And she was like some blonde lady. I couldn't look less like she would be my mother.

• 1:17:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Did she know you were getting your nose pierced?

• 1:17:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:59Karen Kilgariff?

  And she was just like?

• 1:18:00Georgia Hardstark?

  She was cool. I'll always remember her.

• 1:18:02Karen Kilgariff?

  She don't give a shit.

• 1:18:02Georgia Hardstark?

  No, she was cool.

• 1:18:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Shout out to you, Rhonda.

• 1:18:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Definitely Rhonda.

• 1:18:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Such a Rhonda.

• 1:18:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Such a Rhonda.

• 1:18:09Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 1:18:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, where are we?

• 1:18:11Karen Kilgariff?

  He made another giant, but this time with a tail.

• 1:18:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Got it.

• 1:18:14Karen Kilgariff?

  And that was a shout out to Darwinism. Uh, so with this latest stunt, George was certainly aiming for another payday. He almost got it. P T Barnum reportedly offered $20,000 for the Solid Muldoon, which is roughly $600,000 in today's money.

• 1:18:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Just take P T Barnum's money.

• 1:18:35Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, you might as well, but for whatever reason, it doesn't seem like Barnum actually ever purchased it. The deal fell apart somehow. I bet you it was George Hall's fault.

• 1:18:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, it's you.

• 1:18:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, you. It's all you meddling kids, you know, whatever.

• 1:18:48Karen Kilgariff?

  I'm not dealing with you. As writer Mark Rose reports, quote, "Where Barnum admitted offering $50,000 for the Cardiff Giant in 1869, his supposed offer for the Solid Muldoon seven years later was only $20,000. By the 1890s, petrified men were cheap. One found at Wind Cave, South Dakota, went for $2,000, and another found near Fresno and exhibited in the popular drugstore there, sold for $1,000."

• 1:19:15Georgia Hardstark?

  You feel bad for like the real one. There's one real one out there probably, right?

• 1:19:18Karen Kilgariff?

  It could be down there like,

• 1:19:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Guys, I turned to stone. Oh wait, then it says, "Petrified men had lost their financial punch. Their game was over." So, interest in the Solid Muldoon quickly fades. George sank a lot of money into this hoax and he never recoups what he spent. He ultimately returns to his career in the tobacco business, but he struggles financially for the rest of his life. And he dies in 1902 at 81 years old, in obscurity and without much money. But History, the website History, reports that he was, quote, "Still proud of once fooling the world with the Cardiff Giant." For years, George's original Cardiff Giant was regulated to the back of a barn in Massachusetts.

• 1:20:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh my goodness.

• 1:20:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Which I love. Like basically it got bought and sold a couple of times. And then basically someone put it in the back of the barn, where it's like, "Yeah, my dad bought that in the 50s."

• 1:20:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Next to a DeLorean.

• 1:20:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Then in 1901, the year before George's death, it got carted out of storage for the Pan American Exposition in Buffalo, New York, but not many people came to see it. The Giant is again bought and sold several times. And then in 1974, it finally winds up in the hands of the Farmers Museum in Cooperstown, New York, run by the New York State Historical Association. And it's on display there to this day. And the association's vice president for education, Garrett Livermore, has said, quote, "It's one of our most popular exhibitions. People are still fascinated by this story."

• 1:20:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:52Karen Kilgariff?

  It's like, almost makes me cry for some reason.

• 1:20:55Georgia Hardstark?

  It's like, only become more interesting because it's so fake. And because there's so much like...

• 1:21:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Because it's kind of just about people.

• 1:21:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:03Karen Kilgariff?

  It's about, it's a people's story.

• 1:21:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Human nature.

• 1:21:06Karen Kilgariff?

  We're always looking past that of like, where's the giants from days of yore, or whatever, where it's just like, how about a story about George Hull, who was walking around looking like a Snidely Whiplash?

• 1:21:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:18Karen Kilgariff?

  And trying to make giant sculptures trick, like Bible thumpers.

• 1:21:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:24Karen Kilgariff?

  The Cardiff Giant story has all the elements that we know and love. A shocking discovery, a circus-like sense of wonder, a media frenzy, faith butting heads with science, and shameless capitalism. All of these things that feel distinctly, chaotically, and timelessly American. As Gerald R. Smith and George Basler note, "To close, for some visitors to the Farmers Museum, the Cardiff Giant hoax can take on the rosy glow for a time when America seemed more innocent. Although whether this time actually existed is a matter of debate." Others remark on the gullibility of people who fell for the hoax, but maybe they shouldn't be so smug. Witness today's internet hoaxes and online scams.

• 1:22:09Karen Kilgariff?

  For example, stories about aliens building the Great Pyramid.

• 1:22:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Hey.

• 1:22:14Karen Kilgariff?

  End quote.

• 1:22:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Very good slam in there, right at the end. Smith and Basler add that, quote, "Certainly, the memory of the Cardiff Giant has outlived the memory of its creator. No marker exists in Cardiff to remember Hull, the great hoaxer. Considering his ego, he would certainly not be pleased. As the biblical saying goes, a prophet is without honor in his home country." That could go for a hoaxer as well. And that's the story of George Hull and the Cardiff Giant.

• 1:22:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow. How uh?

• 1:22:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Do, do, do, do, do, do, do.

• 1:22:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Great job.

• 1:22:48Karen Kilgariff?

  What was that? I'm not sure. I just, I guess I loved that story so much that I had to give it a the theme song button.

• 1:22:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, that was great. That was, that had everything I wanted in life. That was, that was a perfect story.

• 1:23:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Thank you. Well, yours was perfect, too.

• 1:23:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Thank you. They were great together. Two great tastes that are great together.

• 1:23:09Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, we did it.

• 1:23:11Karen Kilgariff?

  We did it again.

• 1:23:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Should we just end it?

• 1:23:13Karen Kilgariff?

  I think we should.

• 1:23:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, thanks for listening, you guys. We appreciate you. We're here with you in spirit, in spirits, in Cardiff Giants.

• 1:23:22Karen Kilgariff?

  And let's stick together as we go forward and stay sexy.

• 1:23:29Georgia Hardstark?

  And don't get murdered.

• 1:23:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Goodbye. Elvis, do you want a cookie?

• 1:23:42Karen Kilgariff?

  This has been an Exactly Right production.

• 1:23:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Our senior producer is Alejandra Keck.

• 1:23:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Our managing producer is Hannah Kyle-Crayton.

• 1:23:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Our editor is Aristotle Acevedo.

• 1:23:51Karen Kilgariff?

  This episode was mixed by Liana Scolacci.

• 1:23:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Our researchers are Maren McClashan and Ally Elkin.

• 1:23:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Email your hometowns to [email protected].

• 1:23:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Follow the show on Instagram and Facebook at MyFavoriteMurder and Twitter at MyFaveMurder.

• 1:24:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Goodbye.

• 1:24:09Speaker 02

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• 1:24:42Speaker 03

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