Curry vs. Klay, the Embiid Situation, Atlanta’s New Look and Cleveland’s Ascent With Dave Jacoby and Kirk Goldsberry

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons is joined by David Jacoby and Kirk Goldsberry after the NBA Cup games to discuss Klay Thompson’s return to Golden State in the Warriors’ close win over the Mavericks (2:30), the Hawks upsetting the Celtics while not playing Trae Young, Timberwolves–Trail Blazers, whether it’s time to worry about Minnesota (25:50), 76ers-Knicks, rusty Joel Embiid, a Victor Wembanyama check-in, predictions for when the Cavaliers will lose their first game, and more (53:00)! Host: Bill Simmons Guests: David Jacoby and Kirk Goldsberry Producer: Kyle Crichton The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit www.rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  What's happening? It's Todd McShay and I'm back with a new home and a new show at The Ringer and Spotify, The McShay Show. It's a video and audio podcast coming to you year round with all my NFL draft information, big boards, mock drafts and player movement. Plus, I'll be chatting with some of my best friends in football, including some of your favorite football analysts. During the week, we'll have episodes on Tuesdays and Thursdays that'll include discussions about my player rankings, who's rising, who's falling, and who your NFL team should be keeping an eye on. Plus, we'll be reacting each week to the college football playoff polls and giving you previews and picks for each Saturday slate. In addition, I'll have episodes on Saturday nights with my immediate reaction

• 0:43Speaker 00

  to the full day in college football every week. So if you love the college game, the NFL, the draft, or all of it like me, make sure to like, follow, subscribe, and get ready for The McShay Show on The Ringer, Spotify, and wherever you watch or listen to podcasts.

• 1:01Speaker 01

  For adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms, every choice matters. Tremfya offers self-injection or intravenous infusion from the start. Tremfya is administered as injections under the skin or infusions through a vein every four weeks, followed by injections under the skin every four or eight weeks. If your doctor decides that you can self-inject Tremfya, proper training is required. Tremfya is a prescription medicine used to treat adults with moderately to severely active Crohn's disease and adults with moderately to severely active ulcerative colitis. Serious allergic reactions, increased risk of infections, or lower ability to fight them, and liver problems may occur. Before treatment, get checked for infections and tuberculosis. Tell your doctor if you

• 1:45Speaker 01

  have an infection, flu-like symptoms, or need a vaccine. Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Tremfya today. Call 1-800-526-7736 to learn more, or visit tremfyaradio.com.

• 2:01Bill Simmons?

  This episode is brought to you by Uber Eats. It's football season. Uber Eats is delivering deals every game day. This week, get 10 free boneless wings from Wingstop on qualifying orders. Game on, flavor on, Wingstop is here. So if your fantasy league is coming over for some in-person smack talk, order Wingstop on Uber Eats and get 10 boneless wings free. It's the perfect way to keep everyone fed tonight so you can focus on the game. No matter who scores big tonight, you'll score a great deal. Order now and get 10 boneless wings free from Wingstop only on Uber Eats. Offer valid from September 14th to September 27th and from November 2nd to November 16th. Order minimum before taxes and fees is required. See retailer storefront for details. Taxes, fees and terms apply.

• 2:45Bill Simmons?

  Product availability varies by region. Exclusions may apply. See app for details. We're also brought to you by The Ringer Podcast Network. Put up a new rewatchables on Monday night. We did Meet the Parents. It was me and Kyle Brandt. I had a great time. You can watch it on the Ringer Movies YouTube channel as well. You can follow the rewatchables on Twitter. It's at the rewatchables. We had a dramatic movement in the rewatchable standings. De Niro, that was the 13th De Niro movie we've done. So he moved into a second place tie with Al Pacino. We've done 13 of each. Cruz is still leading the way at 15. I feel like we're going to get to 20 Cruz movies before everything is said and done. So check that out.

• 3:28Bill Simmons?

  You can check out the Bill Simmons YouTube channel as well, where we put clips and videos from this podcast where we go live on Sunday nights with Cousin Sal during the NFL season. And coming up on this podcast, we taped it late. We wanted to wait for all these NBA cup games to end. We wanted to see Klay Thompson go back to Golden State. We wanted to see Celtics Hawks. There was a whole bunch of good games, a lot of themes to talk about. So I asked Kirk Goldsberry and Dave Jacoby to stay up late with me and we're going to talk about a whole bunch of basketball stuff. It's all next. First, our friends from Pearl Jam.

• 4:23Bill Simmons?

  All right, we are taping this. It is 9:45 Pacific time. I had the instinct to wait to watch all of these NBA Cup games tonight because I felt like something good was going to happen. I talked Dave Jacoby into staying up super late on the East Coast and then Kirk Goldsberry staying up late as well in the good state of Texas. It's a little easier for me, but Klay came back to Golden State. We'll start there. There's a bunch of games to cover. The game was awesome. And Jacoby, my big takeaway from that game, and we'll get into the staff, the Klay, all that stuff, but that felt like a round two or round three playoff game to me. And I didn't, I wasn't positive that the Warriors maybe were ready to swim in that pool yet. Despite all the evidence, they've had some good games, they have a

• 5:08Bill Simmons?

  good record, but that tonight felt like round two or round three to me. What'd you think?

• 5:14Speaker 03

  I was so sick of this game by like 4 o'clock this afternoon. It was just the coverage just over. It's so much, so much Klay returning and like no way I know about Klay. I didn't think that he cared that much, but it lived up to all the hype. Like even the, the, the announcement, I, I got, I cried very easily. So I got a little like emotional. I didn't cry, but I got a little emotional. I was about to, I was like, God, I can't believe he's not crying. And then the start of the game, they give him the ball. They give him the ball, the first play, he gets fouled, he goes to the line, but it's up and down for Klay. Like I, I felt so like connected to him and I was rooting for him so hard. He had an air ball at the side of the backboard, the third quarter, and then another air ball after that. And I was like, oh no, this is falling apart. But then he

• 5:57Speaker 03

  had a nice little flourish in the fourth quarter. The whole day, I was, I was, I was skeptical about this entire experience, watching this basketball tonight, and I could not have enjoyed it more.

• 6:08Bill Simmons?

  Kirk, he didn't even mention Steph Curry, who is back with a capital B, doing Steph Curry stuff. I was thinking as he was, as he was doing it.

• 6:18Bill Simmons?

  I'm gonna really miss it when it's gone. Like, like, like a 10 out of 10. I think about the future when we don't have Jokic and Curry and it just makes me sad because those are my two favorite day to day league pass guys. I'm just trying to appreciate it in the moment, but he did it again. It was almost like it was Clay's night and there was a little like he had to big boy of the night a little bit, it felt like, didn't you?

• 6:42Speaker 04

  Yeah, definitely. And I think it felt like the Warriors were gonna lose that game. I think they were down seven or something, I want to say. And then Stefan just, yeah, he was like, I'm, I'm the prime splash brother right now and I'm going to take over. And I feel like we're seeing the night night more often than ever, starting with the Olympics. But also I think that's two night nights we've seen this week alone. But this one was especially sort of potent with, with Clay, who had a pretty good shooting night, a couple of bad ones, like Jacoby said. But still ended up, it was nice to see Clay make six threes. But you're right, Stefan made the most impressive ones when the game was on the line. It was just awesome.

• 7:21Bill Simmons?

  Well, the cool thing, you know, these are guys that we weren't sure if we, we may have seen the best of all of them, right? Especially Clay. Draymond last year was like, is this guy even gonna be able to be a functional, you know, NBA star for seven months here? And then Curry, you know, even before the Olympics, it's like, all right, our guy's passing him now, is SGA ahead of him? We're doing this Ringer 100 exercise with the voting next week. And, you know, that was always a tough one to put Curry in because you gotta bring the resume and the experience and all the stuff he's done over the years, but he still has to back it up every once in a while. And I felt like, like he did it today, but the, the, the Clay piece of it, Jacob's.

• 8:02Bill Simmons?

  So as a Celtic fan, I, we had guys come back, but they were like washed up versions of themselves. Like Robert Parish came back. I forget it was whether he was on Charlotte or Chicago. It was like over, he was hanging on for a few more paychecks. It's like, oh, the chief, man, it's so glad he's doing well. We never had, I don't remember a core guy coming back like this and the emotions that you would feel. The closest thing I can come to is when Bird was coaching the Pacers and he would come back as the Pacers coach is like, ah, this sucks. You know, like got Larry Bird on the other side, but, um, you know, you're a natural skeptic. You're an emotional skeptic from time to time. You're a zagger.

• 8:46Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 8:47Bill Simmons?

  You tried to zag against Wemby early this season. I loved it. I thought it was great, but uh, but yet you're an emotional guy too. So this is, this is gamut of emotions for you here.

• 8:58Speaker 03

  And um, I was, there was just so much coverage of it. And he literally said, he's like, I'm so locked in, I don't talk to those guys anymore. And I was like, huh? But he's been, he's been well chronicled as sort of like a little bit of an aloof, sort of like zen master goofball. And that just makes him more likeable. I mean, I'm sure you remember the Grant Lin days and the clay theism and all of that. And like, I just felt like he's not the type to get wrapped up in this, the way other players would. But when you, you could tell that he was wrapped up in it and, and as was I, as was I. And the game lived up to it. Like, I was very skeptical

• 9:37Speaker 03

  of this whole, I'm sure we'll talk about the, the Emirates NBA Cup and then the whole thing. But I was just, I'm

• 9:45Bill Simmons?

  What is Emirates? Is Emirates an airline? What is it?

• 9:48Speaker 03

  It's an airline. It's an airline. They will, they'll take you straight to Abu Dhabi. Yeah.

• 9:52Bill Simmons?

  Great. Okay. Good.

• 9:53Speaker 03

  Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And I was skeptical of the whole thing, the entire thing. But uh, I walk away from tonight being like, I don't even have anything to complain about. I really, I really don't.

• 10:07Bill Simmons?

  It was a great six hours. It reminded me of, remember we would always tease Jalen about somebody that we knew he wasn't cool with. And he's like, no, no, we're cool. We're cool. No, no, we're fine. I, I wonder if like, that's Clay talking about the Warriors. I have no idea how much he talks to those guys. If, if you read between the lines with all the Warriors stuff, um, everyone seemed to think it was time for him to move on. Even the Warriors side, it's like, hey, man, the guy was unhappy last year, which, you know, Kirk, like you spent some time with the Spurs. Kawhi, the situation was a little similar, right? I mean, it was way more acrimonious, but it hit a point where it's like, all right, this doesn't work anymore. It's time for this dude to, to move on. And it seems like everybody's happy, but at the same time,

• 10:52Bill Simmons?

  when they're going against each other in a playoff game and Curry's doing the night night and, you know, grabbing the Golden State chairs. It's like, ah, there's a little bit of a fuck you in this.

• 11:02Speaker 04

  Uh, fuck you, but they all have captain's hats on while they're saying fuck you to them, I guess.

• 11:06Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 11:07Speaker 04

  Dude, it was, uh, the CBA is a very cruel device. It's not a very nostalgic device. And I think, you know, this version of it, Bill, is really just so harsh on teams. And it's so punitive for teams that overspend on players that, that aren't good enough for numbers. Uh, and that's what Clay was getting to. And dude, I think, forget tonight, just for a second, they're, they're nine and two. They won in Boston. They got beat in Cleveland. They won at Oklahoma City and then they just beat a Dallas team. They're on a hell of a run here. They look deep. Uh, and I'm here to say that, that Mike Dunleavy and that group, as hard as this choice was,

• 11:50Speaker 04

  it looks like they made the right team building choice to get the last maybe chance with Stephen Curry to get an MVP or to compete for a championship. So as hard as it was, uh, I think, uh, they made the right call.

• 12:05Bill Simmons?

  Kurt's lights literally just turned off as he was coming that point. No, and, and you saw tonight, Buddy Hill was on the bench for crunch time, right? That would have been Clay. Cause they needed the defense from that two guard spot. So Melton was out there and, and that was, uh, that was the difference. I, I really respect what they did because they're over under, I think, before the year. I think it was 43 and a half. And, and like their playing odds were even odds. I don't think any, it just felt like a team in transition that was kind of trying to chug along until January, February to make a trade for a disgruntled superstar was the vibe. But watching them these first three weeks, I don't know, Jaco, do they feel like, would you go fringe contender, real contender? Where, where would you go?

• 12:49Speaker 03

  No, no.

• 12:51Bill Simmons?

  Fringe contender.

• 12:52Speaker 03

  Good story, good start team. I don't think this is scalable.

• 12:55Bill Simmons?

  Oh, the rabbit?

• 12:56Speaker 03

  Yeah. Yeah. This is not, this is not like a, a 55 win, two seed in the West. I just, I just do not see it. I don't see it. I think this is a, a fast out of the gate team that will come back down to earth very, very soon.

• 13:08Bill Simmons?

  See, I see it because of the defense. I think that, you know, when we get to April, May, defense is what starts to separate people and the defense that they play to me is top five. From what I'm watching, especially when you think Minnesota slipped defensively, the Knicks have slipped defensively. You start going around the league and. Asking yourself, who actually can play defense? I don't know. How many defenses do you love Kirk?

• 13:33Speaker 04

  No, not many. And that when they've won the championship, that's been their formula. They're going to be remembered for all the threes, but the defense that Draymond has been running for years is great. And in this game down the stretch, Bill was a great example. He had Wiggins like really guarding Doncic about as well as anybody can.

• 13:47Bill Simmons?

  Welcome back, Andrew Wiggins. Welcome back to the league.

• 13:50Speaker 04

  He looks different. And then you have Draymond himself really getting into gafford in some of the key moments and turning that seven point lead into a tie game. And so the D, everybody's going to think of this game as like a microcosm. Everybody's going to think of this game for Steph and those late threes. But it was also some major stops by some A plus defenders. I will zag. I think this is for real. I think they could be 14 and two in their next. If we wake up in a week or two, they're 14 and two. If you look at their next five games, that really seems like a contender, assuming Steph and Draymond are able to stay healthy, which their age is a big question, obviously.

• 14:29Bill Simmons?

  Jacoby, still time.

• 14:32Bill Simmons?

  Still time to get on the bandwagon.

• 14:34Speaker 03

  I'm off.

• 14:35Bill Simmons?

  They're playing the banged up Grizzlies, at Clippers, home Hawks, at Pelicans, and at your guy, Wemby. That's the next five.

• 14:47Speaker 03

  This is the same thing that's happening with the Bucks is we're going to think very, very highly of the Warriors in two weeks. And we're going to think that the Bucks have righted the ship in two weeks, but it's just schedule based. It's not basketball based. Who's it outside of Steph?

• 15:03Bill Simmons?

  Who's such a party pooper? Jesus, what's happening to you? What's happening to you? Is it the three kids? Is that why you've become a negative guy?

• 15:10Speaker 03

  No, no.

• 15:11Bill Simmons?

  You were so positive and happy. Now you're just ground down by fatherhood. Now you're just the negative guy now.

• 15:16Speaker 03

  It's Steph Curry. It's Steph Curry and he's great.

• 15:20Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, but here's, it's Steph Curry, but it's also Wiggins looking like Wiggins from two, three years ago. And it's Draymond. No drama yet from him, looking about as athletic as he's looked in a couple of years. And that was the surprise to me because if you had told me they were going to trade him this summer of 2024, I'd have been like, you're right. It's time. Too much drama. Too many things have happened. Maybe fresh start, try to get some assets. But now that would be crazy. When you watch this guy play now, he's still one of the best five or six defensive players. With that said, he'll probably do something dumb in the next 48 hours. That'll be it. I mean, he almost did it the other day. He did the flailing thing. Jacobs, I have a really important question to ask you about the night night.

• 16:03Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 16:07Bill Simmons?

  You're.

• 16:08Speaker 03

  I don't ask a question. I'll give you the answer.

• 16:11Bill Simmons?

  Okay.

• 16:11Speaker 03

  I think it needs to be reserved like a Mike Breen bang. It's, I think it's, it's being overused.

• 16:17Bill Simmons?

  Like a double, like a Mike Breen double bang or Mike Breen bang?

• 16:20Speaker 03

  No, just a bang. You know what I mean? Ah, probably a double bang. So a 1.5 bang. It just, it's being overused and it's losing, it's diluting its effectiveness.

• 16:28Bill Simmons?

  It's being overused because he's winning these major games. He beat Oklahoma City on their home court. The other night he beats Clay tonight. He wins the freaking gold medal. Like these are not, he's not out there overusing it. So can I be the tie breaking vote? I love it. I think it's great. It's, it's become like, almost like a wrestling finishing move now. Now I'm like, want it. When he went up for 25 seconds, I was like, do it, do the night night. Do it. It's great.

• 16:58Speaker 03

  Also good because it brings out like dad vibes. It's like, go to bed, little child, night night. It's just very condescending.

• 17:06Bill Simmons?

  Well, and also it, it brings back memories to the France game, which was like a legitimately great American sports moment. And so every time he does it, I think of that, but I, I, I just feel like LeBron must be furious that he didn't think of this. Like he's probably fired his, his, uh, like quirk management, whoever the guy is on his team. Quirk edition management. It's like, how did you not give me the night night? I would have been doing that like 2013.

• 17:31Speaker 03

  You gave me a book. You gave me the Godfather. That was supposed to be my thing.

• 17:35Bill Simmons?

  You guys were supposed to come up with ideas like this for me. Why don't I have the night night?

• 17:40Speaker 03

  What I do, I do this weird stomp thing where I pound my chest. It sucks.

• 17:44Bill Simmons?

  Kirk, where do you see Dallas right now? In the whole contender hierarchy for you because they're a little off, but I think it's mostly because Luca doesn't look like Luca.

• 17:54Speaker 04

  These are the exact games that we're not seeing in the Eastern Conference. So it's unfair for me to almost judge them. They didn't really click until the second half of last year and that's probably generous. It was really February when this team really started to click. So with the addition of of Klay Thompson, I think they're going to be very good. They're five and six, I think, which is probably not what they want to be. But dude, I'll, I'll say I'm not worried about the Dallas Mavericks. I think their defense will come around. I think if you have Luca and Klay and Kyrie, your offense is going to be fine against every team in the league. So I'm not worried. I think this is just an awkward start and they're playing the kinds of opponents build that we're

• 18:37Speaker 04

  not seeing Eastern Conference teams have to play. I was watching some of these Eastern Conference Emirates Cup games this evening and some of the, some of the basketball wasn't as good, I would say. I noticed. So

• 18:55Bill Simmons?

  You're right. So you feel like the Emirates Cup was better last year?

• 18:59Speaker 04

  Maybe it's peaked. I don't know.

• 19:03Bill Simmons?

  I'll tell you what I don't like about the Klay Thompson era in Dallas, when he takes 17 shots in a game and Kyrie Irving takes 13. If I'm the other team, I'm like, great. That sounds awesome. So Klay's going to take the second most shots on your team? Fantastic. We'll sign up for that right now. Cause I felt like Kyrie could have gone by anybody he wanted in that game tonight. And I still think he's terrifying and I still feel like, I know there are, Klay's like the new toy. You know, it's like when Jacob's when we used to play pickup, once upon a time, we'd bring the third person and we'd try to get them involved in the first game. Then we want to stay in the court. We went back to what we did. Same thing. I eventually Klay is going to be, hey, Klay, stand in the corner

• 19:47Bill Simmons?

  and you'll get your eight threes and but the big boys are going to handle this down the stretch, right? That's how this will play out. I would guess.

• 19:55Speaker 03

  I think so. Phil, I have a question for you.

• 19:59Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 19:59Speaker 03

  And it's, it's really about me. The Emirates NBA Cup.

• 20:06Bill Simmons?

  Is it the NBA Cup presented by Emirates? Or is it the Emirates NBA Cup?

• 20:09Speaker 03

  No, it's the Emirates NBA Cup.

• 20:11Bill Simmons?

  My bad. Okay.

• 20:12Speaker 03

  Yeah. And, um, and it's additive. It's very core. It is additive. Like, these games would be played anyway at sort of a, a lower level of competition on a less cool looking court. And we get a weekend in Vegas with two good games. It's, there, there's, there's nothing I can like poke holes in logically about it. Because it doesn't take anything from me. It gives me extra. But I'm asking you, what is my problem with it?

• 20:40Bill Simmons?

  So my son, who was doing homework tonight, like a good boy.

• 20:44Speaker 03

  Oh, boy.

• 20:45Bill Simmons?

  Came in and he's like, how come the courts are different? I'm like, ah, it's the NBA Cup. And he's looking, he's, there's three games on. He's looking at the courts. He's like, yeah.

• 20:55Bill Simmons?

  What's the point of this?

• 20:58Bill Simmons?

  And I'm like, what do you mean? And he's like, what's the point? And I was like, well, they did it last year. Remember the Lakers one? He's like, yeah. What's the point of this? And I was like, well, they, you know, they're five and then they go to Vegas and you win and, and, and the coaches get more money and the players get money. And he's like, doesn't everyone already have money? Like, yeah, but you know, the courts and. So you, as long as you just don't think, what's the point? I think you can allow yourself to have fun. But that said, Kirk, I was so excited the Celtics. You know, I don't love Celtic losses, but I also don't want them to go to Vegas and play the two extra games. So I was like, if they're gonna lose to the Hawks in the first day of the NBA Cup, I wasn't shedding tears. Where do you stand on the NBA Cup, Kirk?

• 21:42Speaker 04

  I like it. I think we're gonna need to see a little bit more. I have to say, if the three of us are kind of confused by the format, that's not a good sign. Uh, I think like the six groups of five teams where point differential matters. I challenge you to name any group and list the teams in it right now. Like, none of us can do that.

• 22:00Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, when you can't name any of the groups in a thing built around the groups, probably a fundamental flaw.

• 22:06Speaker 04

  Yeah, I didn't know the Hawks were in the Celtics group until the game started. You know, so I think some people have said, hey, maybe we should just do this with the divisions and send a division rep to Vegas, maybe a couple of wild cards. I don't know what the solution is. I like the idea and I believe old school Bill Simmons, maybe Yellow Page, Page Two.

• 22:27Bill Simmons?

  Page Two, Bill Simmons.

• 22:29Speaker 04

  Actually advocated for an in-season turn in at some point.

• 22:32Bill Simmons?

  I like it.

• 22:33Speaker 03

  Oh, this is you. You did this, Bill. Take the credit.

• 22:36Bill Simmons?

  I like it. I, I mean, there's, there's a reason we waited to do the podcast till after day one of the NBA Cup. I was, first of all, I was excited. They finally got a name for it because last year we were calling it the IST. Remember?

• 22:50Speaker 03

  It sounds like something you get tested for. You're really concerned about the results.

• 22:54Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, it's like, oh, my God, my IST came back.

• 22:57Speaker 04

  It came back Pacers.

• 22:58Bill Simmons?

  There's a reason I have rash on my balls. I have IST. This year, we have the NBA Cups presented by Emretes.

• 23:08Speaker 03

  Emirates, Emirates.

• 23:09Bill Simmons?

  Emirates.

• 23:10Speaker 03

  Emorates.

• 23:11Bill Simmons?

  So here's three things I like. One is they finally, the NBA Cup I like. Two, I think the courts are fun to either enjoy or complain about. The Celtics court tonight looked like a nuclear reactor hit it.

• 23:24Bill Simmons?

  The number one thing, though, is how everyone has to try into the bitter end because of this point differential. There was a moment in that Portland, Minnesota game, they're up 16 with five seconds left and like Jeremy Grant got thrown out of bounds. And I, I thought there was going to be a fight. All the terrible of starters were in there. They were down 16. They inbounded the ball. They're like flying down and get like a layup. I was like, all right, that's cool. At least we've got guys trying.

• 23:49Speaker 03

  Tibbs, Tibbs is just running his normal rotation. I was looking at all the starters for the Knicks in and I was like, oh, well, this is what he does anyway. So.

• 23:55Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 23:55Speaker 03

  There's nothing, nothing has changed. Nothing has changed there. But again, like it's, it's all additive. It's just all additive. Like I, I really don't understand what I don't like about it because it just gives us more competitive basketball during a lull in the season.

• 24:10Bill Simmons?

  I know what you don't like about it. You don't like contrived.

• 24:12Speaker 03

  This whole weekend.

• 24:13Bill Simmons?

  You don't like contrived things. It's fundamentally, this is contrived, but I still think it works. What were you going to say, Kirk?

• 24:21Speaker 04

  I don't think it should be in Vegas and apologies to our friends in Nevada, but I went there, Bill, I remember I saw you in the concourse on the semifinal day, remember? I think it was a Tuesday and they had the two semifinals back to back. They clear out the building and bring on another audience and that's a plot point. I think this should be in Barclays in Madison Square Garden and then the final should be in Madison Square Garden because it was felt so weird to be in Vegas in the middle of the day. None of the team's fans were there, like the Pacers fans couldn't make it out because they didn't know they were going there until like three days previous or something. So I wonder if it'd be better in New York City where it would be dark outside. There's, if you go to Brooklyn, there are Pacers fans or Bucks fans or whoever else is making these semifinals.

• 25:04Speaker 04

  They're already in New York. So I think that would be attended better. And I think, yeah, there's just the Vegas during the 2pm tip off in, on a Tuesday, just felt really weird. But that would be one of the things I'd look at for them is bring it to the East Coast where Jacoby is, where there's two great arenas are and tons of basketball fans.

• 25:22Bill Simmons?

  Bring it to Jacoby, that's what you're saying.

• 25:23Speaker 04

  Yeah, I like this. I love this. Bring it to Jacoby, bring it to the East Coast. And by the way, just put another meaningful basketball game in Madison Square Garden every year. What's wrong with that?

• 25:31Bill Simmons?

  See, I think the reason they're not doing that, Kirk, this is all part of the NBA's master plan.

• 25:37Speaker 04

  Oh, yeah.

• 25:38Bill Simmons?

  Six billion dollar expansion team. They're going to make it a process. It's not going to be an auction. It's going to be, this is the price. You're going to pay it. And by the way, wink, wink, preferential treatment. If you're building us a new arena in Vegas that's built for basketball only. They build this awesome arena downtown, whoever gets the group. So it's six billion for the team, another two billion for the arena. And then that is the arena that becomes for the NBA team, for the Aces, for the summer league, and then for this NBA cup. And I think that's why it stays in Vegas. I don't think it ever leaves. That would be my guess. So it makes sense?

• 26:13Speaker 04

  It makes sense. And it probably is what they're doing. But yeah.

• 26:17Bill Simmons?

  They have Vegas, Vegas is in their sights as, I think they want it almost to be like the hub of the league in a lot of ways, it feels like. Lots more to discuss. We're going to take a quick break.

• 26:32Bill Simmons?

  Well, the NBA is in full swing and FanDuel is America's number one sportsbook. As you know, they want you to catch all the action. Right now FanDuel giving everyone three months of NBA League Pass. All you have to do to catch every tip off and buzzer beater is place any $5 bet on the NBA. I mean, you could watch the Cleveland Cavaliers. Are they ever going to lose? What's going to happen with this team? Is this the 2015 Warriors recreated? Go check them out for yourself. Next time you get a hunch in who's going to win or how many points a player will score, you can watch your picks come to life live. Just visit FanDuel.com/BS to get three months of NBA League Pass courtesy of FanDuel. Take every moment more with FanDuel, official sportsbook partner of the NBA.

• 27:15Bill Simmons?

  You must be 21 plus and present in select states or 18 plus and present in DC. After three month free trial, the full price of League Pass will be automatically charged monthly, cancel anytime, no refunds. Terms, restrictions and embargoes apply. Limit one pass per customer. See terms at sportsbook.fanduel.com. Game problem, call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com. This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra. Just picture it, the NBA Cup playing on TV, a cold Michelob Ultra in hand, surrounded by your friends. What could be better other than, you know, being at a game? Which could happen actually, as the official beer sponsor of the NBA, Michelob Ultra, is bringing fans closer to the game. So enter and have a chance to win courtside seats, merch and more.

• 27:58Bill Simmons?

  Enter now at michelobultra.com/courtside. Michelob Ultra Courtside 26 to 27. No purchase necessary. Open to U.S. residents 21 plus. Begins on October 1st, 2026. Ends on June 30th, 2027. Multiple entry periods. See official rules at michelobultra.com/courtside for free entry, entry deadlines, prizes and details. This episode is brought to you by PNC Bank. In today's sports, everyone is constantly trying to outdo each other. Trick formations, infield shifts, constant rotation changes, yet it's proven time and time again that strong fundamentals are the thing that will lead you to victory. Banking, no different. While everyone else tries to outdo each other, PNC Bank just keeps going right down the middle with steady, calculated money moves and the financial wins just keep coming.

• 28:42Bill Simmons?

  PNC Bank, brilliantly boring since 1865. Brilliantly boring since 1865 is a registered mark of the PNC Financial Services Group, Incorporated. PNC Bank, National Association Member, FDIC.

• 28:57Bill Simmons?

  So Hawks Celtics tonight, which was the game of the day in a lot of ways because it was the biggest upset. The Hawks were 16-point underdogs on FanDuel heading into the game, which I thought was ridiculous because the line was reflective of that Trey Young wasn't playing. And as a Celtic fan, I was like, crap, Trey Young's not playing. Now they're gonna just have long athletic guys and they're gonna actually play defense and we're not gonna be able to just pick on Trey Young with every offensive possession in the last nine minutes of the game. No shots fired at Trey, but shots fired at Trey because that's what Boston would have done. I thought the Hawks stumbled into their team tonight, guys. It's Jalen Johnson and Reese Shea and Dyson Daniels, who is now the best defensive

• 29:42Bill Simmons?

  swing in the league, I think. And if he's not, he's in the conversation for it. And it's just this athletic team with two bigs. Doesn't really matter who's in that guard spot. It could be Bogdanovich when he comes back. But it's a team without Trey that I thought fell into place. What'd you think, Jacobs, watching them?

• 30:03Speaker 03

  Dyson Daniels, I mean, had a career night tonight, so it's easy to celebrate him, but he has been playing really well all year for the Hawks. And then you mix in Keaton Wallace, and then you kind of start to get this like, kind of like Oklahoma City Thunder Light thing going on, where we got a bunch of long, fast defenders that are capable on the offensive side, but it's really hard to get baskets on. And you could tell that Daniels was just getting up in Jason Tatum early. Just like regular, normal actions that he does, just goes around a screen and Daniels sticks his shoulder in there. He got called for a foul on one, but he was just making Jason Tatum uncomfortable the entire time. And I was, I was really enjoying the game, but I was very, very thrown by Quinn Snyder's Sally Jesse Raphael class. I don't know what that was. And if you're

• 30:48Speaker 03

  younger, she used to have a talk show in the afternoon. They used to be really important for some reason. And she always wore red frames. I'm like, Quinn Snyder, what, what made you do that? What made you do that?

• 30:59Bill Simmons?

  He's, he's been, he's been acting super goofy on the sidelines with his looks for, for two years. So Daniels was in the Dejounte Murray trade.

• 31:10Bill Simmons?

  And the trade was Daniels, Nance, and unprotected 2025 Lakers first. And the worst of either a Pelicans or Bucks 2027 first, which now seems a lot more enticing than it did over the summer. But I was watching the game tonight, just honestly thinking Murray versus Daniels. Who would I rather have? Especially like with the Ringer 100. I just think Daniels is a better asset. What he does is more unusual. I think he's 21 or 22. Somebody that never really got a chance to play in the Pelicans because they had so many wings ahead of them. And they even had Herb Jones, who did a lot of the same stuff that he does.

• 31:52Bill Simmons?

  I think if you do it over again, Kurt, just Daniels for Murray feels like a pretty fair trade, not to mention all the other stuff they had. That's one of the better trades anyone's made. It almost makes up for all the shit they gave up for Murray in the first place. Like, who would you rather have? Daniels or Murray?

• 32:09Speaker 04

  Well, I think Daniels is the defender that Atlanta thought they were getting with Dejounte, but Dejounte just never showed up as a defender for them. It didn't work. I love Dyson Daniels. I think he's had freaking six steals, three games in a row, Bill. That is like Kawhi Leonard stuff. We don't see those numbers. He's a legitimate Defensive Player of the Year candidate. And you're right, like, looking back at that trade, I think it's fair to be, you know, it's fair to be on Atlanta's side of the deal at this point because I think Larry Nance also played very well tonight. He's at least a nice rotation piece.

• 32:46Bill Simmons?

  And New Orleans misses him, too.

• 32:48Speaker 04

  And yeah, yeah, they missed.

• 32:49Bill Simmons?

  He was finishing games for them last year.

• 32:51Speaker 04

  He's a great player, a great rotation piece, I should say. And I think that Jalen Johnson is the other revelation. This dude had a triple double tonight. And when Trey Young is out there, we don't see these guys get to do this. When Trey Young is out there, we see Trey Young being Trey Young. Almost every trip down the floor. And so for me tonight, I thought it was reveler. I don't know if this is sustainable, but I didn't know Jalen Johnson had that. I didn't know that he could go out and get 10 assists and score the ball and rebound the ball like that. And essentially being a leader and Dyson Daniels also sort of a really powerful two-way playmaker, which is quirky offensive game. But I agree. I think this, at least this game makes

• 33:34Speaker 04

  you think about an Atlanta future without Trey Young in it.

• 33:39Bill Simmons?

  And he has the ball a lot for them. It was a situation where he would come out of the game.

• 33:44Bill Simmons?

  And then Jalen Johnson would have the ball a lot. Daniels sometime. And it almost feels like they're interchangeable when they have Reese Sache out there. It feels like they just have these 6'9 interchangeable, all kind of multi-skilled, good defenders. They know how to play.

• 34:00Bill Simmons?

  Jacob's, is it time? Do we, do we open, do we open the trade machine for Trey Young?

• 34:07Speaker 03

  The trade machine.

• 34:08Bill Simmons?

  The trade machine?

• 34:12Speaker 03

  Who wants Trey Young?

• 34:13Bill Simmons?

  Well, so that's the issue.

• 34:15Speaker 03

  That's very good question. Yeah, I was like, who, what team is Trey Young away from wherever they want to be? Cause there is not one. In my mind, there's not a single team that is willing to give up what it takes to bring Trey Young in, just salary wise, that makes them better. Like, who is Trey Young away from their goals? Answer that question.

• 34:34Bill Simmons?

  It's an incredible question. And I looked through, as you know, I'm the Picasso of the trade machine. I'm like, I'll find three trades right now. Like snap my fingers, it's gonna happen. And you start going through and it's like, eh, they probably don't want him. No, they have a point guard. Well, what do they, like, a team like Brooklyn, well, what do they want Trey Young for? They're actually playing well. Like they don't, it's not like they're, what's he gonna do for them? Oh, Washington, would they trade Jordan Poole and picks for Trey Young? Why would you do that? You start going through all the teams and honestly, the only team I could find was the Lakers.

• 35:10Speaker 03

  No.

• 35:10Bill Simmons?

  That was it.

• 35:11Speaker 03

  But it, just think about what you're adding to, what you're putting into the, the fish tank.

• 35:16Speaker 04

  Wait, hold on.

• 35:17Speaker 03

  If you have another player.

• 35:17Speaker 04

  I think he might have found it, Jacoby.

• 35:20Speaker 03

  The Lakers?

• 35:22Speaker 04

  Do they like their point guard right now?

• 35:24Bill Simmons?

  So that's where you have to go, where it's like, it's, it's, it's, uh, D'Angelo Russell expiring. It's Rui.

• 35:33Bill Simmons?

  Just to make the contracts work, it's what did they did that Hood Shafino, which they made him that his contract's now expiring. And then they have a couple firsts and it's like, here's your chance to get out of the Trey Young business, get some picks and build the team around Jalen Johnson and Dyson Daniels, which by the way, I think is a good idea. And by the way, Trey Young's not playing well this year.

• 35:53Speaker 03

  But why would the Lakers do that? You're gonna call JJ Reddick and be like, oh, we made a trade.

• 35:57Bill Simmons?

  Why would the Lakers do that? They traded for Westbrook.

• 36:00Speaker 03

  Fair.

• 36:01Bill Simmons?

  Why did they do anything?

• 36:03Speaker 03

  When you add Trey Young to the team, every other player that is still on the team is going to be like, this is gonna be hell. Every other player, unless you're just like a lob catcher.

• 36:13Bill Simmons?

  I mean, him and Davis, I kinda like that combo. I'm pushing it because I really want the Lakers to do it. Now, here's my other scenario for the Hawks.

• 36:22Speaker 03

  Lifelong Laker fan, Bill Simmons, always rooting for the Lakers.

• 36:26Bill Simmons?

  What if I offered you Trey Young, sixth man?

• 36:33Bill Simmons?

  Just staring at me like the heads of two chickens.

• 36:36Speaker 03

  Well, how much are you gonna pay the sixth man?

• 36:40Bill Simmons?

  Just Trey Young coming off the bench.

• 36:41Speaker 04

  Forty-two million dollars, I think.

• 36:42Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, it's like, you know what, he's a little overpaid, but he's a heat check guy coming off the bench for us. Twenty-two minutes a game. Oh, you're not happy? Too bad.

• 36:51Bill Simmons?

  No?

• 36:52Speaker 03

  No.

• 36:52Bill Simmons?

  I don't know. I'm just trying to figure out outs for them because I think they know they're, the team I saw tonight is the team they should be.

• 36:59Speaker 03

  Here's what's happening, Bill, is you like the Hawks and I like the Hawks.

• 37:03Bill Simmons?

  I do. I've watched a lot of Hawks this year.

• 37:05Speaker 03

  You wanna see this, you wanna see this version of the Hawks? You like this version of the Hawks better than the Trey Young version. So let me offer this to you.

• 37:11Bill Simmons?

  I like, I like defense length Hawks. That's, defense length Hawks is my Hawks.

• 37:16Speaker 03

  Let's, let's, do you know who we offer sixth man Trey Young to? The fucking Hawks.

• 37:26Speaker 03

  That's what you offered to.

• 37:27Bill Simmons?

  That was my point.

• 37:29Speaker 03

  Yeah, well, I thought you were trying to offer it to another team, like it's like coming off the bench. No, no.

• 37:33Bill Simmons?

  Hey, Trey Young, this is gonna, John Havlicek came off the bench. Kevin McHale came off the bench.

• 37:38Speaker 03

  He's like, who?

• 37:38Bill Simmons?

  Great players.

• 37:39Speaker 03

  Who, who are these people?

• 37:42Bill Simmons?

  Great players have come off the bench.

• 37:45Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, the big picture point is I, you would have thought like, ah, we'll find three teams for Trey Young, but there's so many point guards now and everyone's so afraid to take in salary that I don't know what the move is. So you could have probably talked New Orleans into it over the summer, but they traded Murray there. So I don't know, is there any other team you could think of? Is, is Kirk, the Spurs, that's a no go, right?

• 38:07Speaker 04

  Hell no, that's a hell no. I, yeah, and I think Jacoby hit on it and I actually texted a couple of friends around the league just to, just to take their temperature on it. Yeah, and they said there's no market for this guy. Uh, I don't know if they're right or wrong, but the number is, again, the, the CBA is not this old CBA. Like it is, it is brutal if you start overpaying for, for talent, um, particularly starting guard. Um, so I, everybody has a point guard, as we said, and I think he, he's, he's not sort of enchanting anybody around the league. Uh, but I do like the idea of him taking a six man role in Atlanta. I don't know if they can pull that off, uh, but that would be interesting to see, uh, come to play.

• 38:50Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, cause you think, like Brandon Ingram, nobody wanted him all summer. David Griffin basically put him on eBay and, and everybody said, no, no, we're good. And then you watch the season, they had some injuries and he's 25 a game and he's finishing games for them as the crunch time guy. He's the guy with the ball in his hands the last two minutes. Nobody wanted him over the course of the summer. Nobody wants Zach Levine, who's averaging, I think 23 or 24 a game for the Bulls. It feels like there's this inflection point with prices and I, I think another one honestly is Dame. I like people, they're like Milwaukee blows it up, they'll trade Yanis, they'll trade Dame. It's like, will they trade Dame? Dame's gonna make $60 million in two years.

• 39:31Bill Simmons?

  By the way, watch them play tonight. That's much like the Hawks, like they were actually playing defense tonight because he was out of the game. So I, I, I might, there might just be some guys that it's just the, the salary makes it a non-negotiable trade. I don't know. What were you gonna say, Jacobs?

• 39:46Speaker 03

  Well, two things. Number one, um, and also like, let's just not forget just how much Trey Young has the ball in his hands at all times and it's ineffective without it. So if you put him on a team in an ecosystem, you're basically just signing up for Luka Doncic like offense without Luka Doncic like performance. And one thing, one thing that we haven't discussed enough is, you know, I don't, I don't like watch too much college basketball and grind tape. I study up before the draft on you guys, but all we heard about was how bad this draft was, how bad this draft was. I watched Zachary Reese Shea absolutely cook the New York Knicks. Like Reese Shea thus far, and we're like 11 games in, has looked like a number one pick. He really has. And like, and I, I, you know,

• 40:31Speaker 03

  happiness is a function of expectations. My expectations were low enough for all these rookies that Reese Shea's has been like, I'm like, yeah, that's, that's a piece. That's a, that's a piece.

• 40:40Bill Simmons?

  Should I have contacted you a month ago when I bought all that property on Reese Shea Island? House of Marcella thought I was kidding.

• 40:48Speaker 03

  Well, it's a develop, it's a developing part of France, you know? Everyone talks about Monaco and Nice.

• 40:52Bill Simmons?

  Great shots.

• 40:53Speaker 03

  You know, yeah, yeah.

• 40:54Bill Simmons?

  Great shots in the water. By the way, I forgot to mention this with Dyson Daniels. Our friends, the NBA University Twitter feed, which is really good. They had deflections per game plus total steals and they had the leaders. And by the way, number two on the list was Nikola Jokic, guy who allegedly can't play defense and yet is always in the right spots, touching everything. Uh, but he was 4.4, Ananobe's 4.2, Caruso's 4.1, Dyson Daniels was 7.3.

• 41:25Bill Simmons?

  He's almost three higher than everyone else in the league and tonight I think he had like nine or 10. When you watch him on defense, it's like watching a free safety in football who like is just touching everything or almost getting an interception or hitting guys before I, I, I was blown away by him. Now, the, the key to the game for the Hawks was that Tatum, I don't think Tatum should have played. I think they made a mistake because Giannis stepped on his foot in the Bucks game. He didn't have the same burst. I thought he was pretty tentative. Jalen carried the, Jalen and Derrick White carried them. But, uh, he kinda ate up Tatum. And I think if it was Tatum from five days ago, maybe it's not exactly the same, but, uh, but, uh, I, I don't know, man. I, I've been watching this Hawks all year. That was one of

• 42:08Bill Simmons?

  my, uh, over under locks. It's like, I think 37 and a half. It was down to 32 and a half. I bet more on it on Boston. I like this Hawks team. Um, one more thing about the, this whole combo. Guys who made a leap this season, the Hawks have two. Jalen Johnson and Daniels. LaMelo obviously made a leap. Jacoby, you and, uh, you and, you and, uh, Verno talked about that today in a podcast where the highlight of the podcast was Verno trying to figure out if Michael Jordan had ever had 15 assists in a game and then being unable to Google it for three minutes.

• 42:44Speaker 03

  I thought we were gonna edit that out.

• 42:45Bill Simmons?

  I'm gonna Google it right now. It's like, hold on, we're gonna take a break. Come back. I'm still Googling it. It just took forever. Why did he just Google Michael Jordan's game, career game logs? That should take him five seconds. But anyway, you talked about, uh, you talked about LaMelo on that pod, how the joy that he's playing with, they got killed tonight. And I think Cade's another one that seems like he went a notch up. Kirk, who else do you have that you feel like is just different than last year?

• 43:15Speaker 04

  Grady Dick.

• 43:16Bill Simmons?

  Hmm. I agree.

• 43:18Speaker 04

  Grady Dick is, uh, leading all sophomore players in scoring, which is insane. Uh, he's ahead of Wemby.

• 43:25Bill Simmons?

  He has them all a lot.

• 43:26Speaker 04

  He is like their primary offensive playmaker in some, in some, in some parts of the game. So I did not expect to see that he had 32 tonight. Uh, I think there was the game they should have won against Denver last week and that dude had 26. Like this guy, he, he doesn't look like an NBA player. His face changes color depending on what quarter we're in and. He's, he plays such a weird kind of aggressive slashy game. I thought he was going to be more of a spot up shooter. Um, but he has made a leap and in Toronto, looks like they have something there that I didn't expect to have last year.

• 44:07Bill Simmons?

  You know what Grady Dick, what I like about him? He's like the guy who shows up and pick up. That you're like, who the fuck is this guy? And then you, you start watching him play and he does like a 27 foot step back and makes it and starts talking shit. You're like, what's going on with this guy? Um, he's very unusual. I, I feel like he, he occupies a specific part of the NBA universe with Tyler Hero. And they're just kind of over on the side. Like there's only, is there anybody else like that, Jacobs?

• 44:35Speaker 03

  Well, the thing about Grady Dick is he didn't really do much last year beside like wear, wear a cool draft suit and like exchange jerseys with Anthony Black. That's kind of like what I remember about him and, and like, like Kurt, I was like, oh, this guy's a shooter. You know, he'll shoot at 40%. There's always a spot for, for like a, a tall shooter that can play a little defense. But then you watch the Raptors, which I do from time to time and he's like, he's, he's getting to the rim. Like he's finishing with knuckles at the rim, getting past his defender and like taking on a, a second help defender and scoring. I'm like, where was this guy last year? Like, what is this? And is it? In, you know what? I'm going to answer the question to ask Kurt too, because we were talking about it. RJ Barrett's kind of taken a little mini leap too.

• 45:20Speaker 03

  And, and my question for you, Bill, because you're always a student to sort of point this out is like, they're going to score 95 points, right?

• 45:26Bill Simmons?

  Somebody's got to get that anyway.

• 45:27Speaker 03

  It's going to come from somewhere. So do you think these are actual mini leaps or it's just sort of a function of them being capable NBA players without superstars on their team?

• 45:37Bill Simmons?

  No, the Grady Dick thing looks real to me because it seems like he can create shots for him and other players. Even in fourth quarters, I, it doesn't seem fluky to me at all. The RJ thing. You know, he would have these little runs even on the Knicks where he would have these little like four or five week where it's like, oh, RJ Barrett. Oh, did you see these numbers the last 11 games? And then he would dip down. So I don't know if I totally trust him. Um, I, I think uh, somebody at the Ringer wrote about it this week. I think it was Michael Pena about, I think Castle's really interesting. And I know he's not a leap guy, but because he's a rookie. But you know, I thought that was somebody, if I had to gun to my head, who's going to win Rookie of the Year,

• 46:18Bill Simmons?

  I probably would have picked him. I didn't feel good about any of the choices. But it feels like there's a lot of room on the ceiling for him. So I, I feel like he's going to take a leap during the season, potentially. Um, there's a couple Portland guys that I think are in this convo too.

• 46:37Bill Simmons?

  The, I don't know if you saw tonight. There was some Scoot stuff tonight.

• 46:42Speaker 03

  There was some Scoot stuff.

• 46:44Bill Simmons?

  There was some Scoot beating guys off the dribble, banging off big bodies in traffic moments. There was some defense from Scoot. There was some chemistry. It seems like the whole bench is rooting for him. Anytime he does anything, there's guys jumping off the bench and.

• 47:00Speaker 03

  That's not, that's not a good sign. My rec team does that for me too. Like every time I hit a jump shot, they over celebrate because I'm so bad. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 47:06Bill Simmons?

  Oh, it's one of those?

• 47:07Speaker 03

  My confidence. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's annoying.

• 47:11Bill Simmons?

  You know, we, we should talk about the Portland, Minnesota, because the uh, Portland's the weirdest team in the league. They have three legitimate centers. Tonight, Robert Williams was awesome. Ayton didn't play. Klingon comes in, he's really good too. They have all these swings and guards and it just seems like it would be a really hard team to coach. But I think they're a little bit better and a little bit friskier than uh, than maybe I expected. And what really happened is they, they beat Minnesota, who's now six and five. Have we veered into the, is it time to start worrying about Minnesota stage of the season, Kirk?

• 47:48Speaker 04

  Again, I'm going to say no. I think they deserve time to sort of implement their new pieces with Randall and Dante. This is a bad loss, though. You can't lose to that team in the Emirates NBA Cup of all times to lose to a bad team. So I think I would have expected them to win this game. I still think the West is loaded. Again, these aren't the kinds of records. If they were playing in the East, they would have a much better record. So they're just playing tougher games.

• 48:20Bill Simmons?

  But they lost 20 to Portland with like three minutes left. Like, that's not great.

• 48:25Speaker 04

  It's not great. I think Finch is good. I love Ant. I think that Gobert starts you at worst as the fifth ranked defense in the NBA. I think they're going to be fine once they get settled into this season. Again, remember our Western Conference champion last year didn't look good until February. So yeah, I think they, I think they're going to come around. I think they're just too talented on both ends of the court. They have a good coach and they have depth. So I think this is just an awkward start from a group that hasn't really played basketball together very much. I don't know. What do you guys think?

• 49:02Speaker 03

  It's too early to sort of really be concerned about it, but I just, if you are a Timberwolves fan and you've convinced, so I've, I've been watching Julius Randall play basketball for, for his entire stint on the Knicks. And there's been, there's been all-star years and big, huge games and big shots and big moments, but he's a very, very frustrating player to be a fan of. And I think that nights like tonight, you see that where it's like you took nine shots, you're 0 for 3 from 3, you just didn't impact the game in any way, shape or form. And when you have someone like Anthony Edwards on the team, every time Randall has the ball, he starts to like operate. I'm like, I'd

• 49:45Speaker 03

  probably have that, I'd rather have that other guy doing that, you know, because he does this like mid-range sort of back down. Like, like, super, super poor, broke man Carmelo kind of turnaround from the baseline thing. And it's, it's, it's very, very frustrating because it's just effective enough that he will keep on doing it. But on a team that also has Anthony Edwards, because the Knicks didn't have a player that could get his own shot like Randall did, which is why he was so successful there. But if you have Anthony Edwards, just the opportunity cost of his operating is just too great.

• 50:19Bill Simmons?

  So we just had an election. I'm not sure if you guys saw we changed presidents again. It was last week.

• 50:26Speaker 03

  Did Emery sponsor, Emery sponsored?

• 50:27Bill Simmons?

  One of the, one of the recurring themes every time you have an election is somebody does the, are we better off right now than we were four years ago? It's always like a question, right? If I'm a Timberwolves fan, I'm just fundamentally a big picture. I know we're gonna start early. These guys have to learn how to play together, all that stuff. Am I better off in mid-November than I was in mid-May? Would be the thing I'd be thinking about. And the answer is unequivocally no.

• 50:58Speaker 03

  No.

• 50:59Bill Simmons?

  The answer is no. You could say Edwards is a little better and a little more confident and the, the summer playing with all the stars, the things he learns is a better three-point shooter. I get all of that. But the identity of that team, really from January on last year, how good they were defensively, how tough they were to play with their size, just how fucking weird they were night to night, and just that there was nobody else like them. And you felt like they could overpower people with their size and their defense and get enough scoring to make it work. And now I watch them and I, I don't know what their superpower is other than Edwards. Like, Kirk made the key point, like, if you have Gobert, you're still gonna be like, one of the best seven defenses. But you're not gonna

• 51:42Bill Simmons?

  be compared to the 2004 Pistons with the team they have now. And I know they have to figure it out, but I thought Dillingham was gonna play more for them. He's not playing at all. You know, they, they kept their fingers crossed with Joe Ingles. That didn't work out. They lost Slomo, who I thought was weirdly valuable for them last year. McDaniels has finally gotten going a little bit for them. He was borderline unplayable before, but they just don't feel special to me. I have them, I, you know, OKC, Dallas, Denver.

• 52:16Bill Simmons?

  Phoenix, Golden State. I think they're below all five of those teams, Kirk. Is that crazy?

• 52:22Speaker 04

  I don't think that's crazy. Again, the West is so stacked that being the fifth or the sixth seed over there is, is, is no sort of bad situation. I mean, that's a good team. Whoever's going to land there is probably a pretty good team. Um, you know, I think they had to do something. You can't pay Gobert and, and Towns. You just can't do that. That's not what their owner wants. And I hate to be the cap guy, but part of this move was to get off the Towns deal for all the out years and get, uh, get some flexibility, maybe get off Randall when he expires, uh, and have more flexibility for a team that's built around Anthony Edwards and Rudy Gobert long-term

• 53:03Speaker 04

  with players like Nas Reed and Dante DiVincenzo and Nikhil Alexander-Walker, who's been awesome. Um, so, you know, again, this, this is the, the boring character in the NBA saga is the CBA, but I think it explains some of their, their, their reasoning for this trade in the first place. Uh, but are they better off as a basketball team? No, you're right. They're not, not right now. Uh, but long-term, I think within the constraints of the, of the team building sort of apparatus that the league has put on us, they see a path to be a championship team with Anthony Edwards and Rudy Gobert and a bunch of great role players in depth. Um, whether that'll work, I don't know. I think they're going to be fine. I think I'd put them at four or five right now if I had to say in the West.

• 53:49Bill Simmons?

  I can't get there. And you know, I actually had talked myself into the Randall, DiVincenzo part of the trade, Jacobs before the season. It's like, you know what?

• 53:58Speaker 04

  Talked me into it.

• 53:59Bill Simmons?

  No, it's like, you know, the Towns-Gobert thing was always weird. Put in Randall. Randall's a proven 2010 guy. DiVincenzo will give them some scoring off the bench, but. I just, you're right. We probably, we probably should wait until near the All-Star break to really look at this, but I just, they don't seem special to me in the same way anymore. Whereas I watch a team like Houston, who, and I don't even know if they know who their best five guys are right now, but Houston has moments that remind me of Minnesota last year, when they, when they put in the, the, the Easton and Thompson combo, and you're just like, holy shit. Like, these guys are like fucking destroying the game

• 54:40Bill Simmons?

  right now. They just have a lot of options. And I wonder, part of me wonders, is that just gonna be this year's kind of fun, weird wrinkle to the season, Houston? Like, I don't know if they're gonna be as successful as Minnesota was last year, but they remind me of the feeling I got from Minnesota last year. I'm like, Jesus, what is this team? Don't you feel that way with Houston? You watch them like, whoa, Jesus, what's going on with this team? In a good way, not a bad way.

• 55:06Speaker 03

  I have, I have faith in Ime Udoka as a basketball coach. Maybe not as a life partner, but the, the young nucleus that they have, like the, the young nucleus that they have, they have so many fun players to watch play basketball, that I just feel like it's gonna filter down. They've kind of got like, like Method Man stole this from someone else. He said, if you can't get yourself a 10, at least you can sleep with five twos. It feels like they've got like, they're like, like, like, they're on the honor roll, but they've got like seven B minuses. You know what I mean? Like, I just feel like, like, it's gonna, it's gonna shape itself out. Like, who their three stars are there to commit to long-term, and what they build around. Because it seems like they've got seven guys that they could

• 55:51Speaker 03

  potentially like build around as the future of their team.

• 55:54Bill Simmons?

  I think nephew Kai really enjoyed that analogy. I'm just guessing. He might not even be awake right now. We gotta take one more break. Couple more things to discuss.

• 56:06Bill Simmons?

  This episode is brought to you by Workday. Guessing is for game shows, not your business, especially when your margin for error is zero. Workday is the enterprise AI platform for HR, finance and IT with a deep understanding of your organization's context and guardrails. So every AI action is permission aware, giving you accuracy 24/7 and the ability to not just get work done, but get it done right. It's a new Workday. This episode is brought to you by TikTok. When you watch a football game, you follow the ball, right? Well, there's a video on TikTok where this guy says to watch the players without the ball, watch the routes and the action, away from the play. I'll change how you see the game. And guess what? He's not wrong. That's the thing about discovery on TikTok. One video can change the way you see the game.

• 56:50Bill Simmons?

  You can learn something new or see things in a completely different way. Your next discovery is waiting on TikTok. Visit tiktok.com/discovermore. This episode of the Bill Simmons Podcast is presented by State Farm. Every football player brings something different to the field. Maybe they have a cannon arm, speed, power. Maybe they have their own podcast. That being said, no two players are exactly alike. And the same is true off the field. That's why State Farm takes the time to get to know you so they can help personalize coverage for your life and budget. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. All right, couple more things before we go on this. And it's like three in the morning for Jacob. I don't even know how late it is there. How late is it?

• 57:34Speaker 03

  1:30.

• 57:35Bill Simmons?

  1:30. Oh, it's nice to start for you.

• 57:37Speaker 03

  Yeah, bars are open for two and a half more hours.

• 57:40Bill Simmons?

  A former MVP returned tonight. Joel Embiid came back and played the New York Knicks and played for about five minutes and looked like he was going to keel over. Then he left.

• 57:56Bill Simmons?

  Disappeared. Was he hurt? Not sure. Came back, played some more. Uh, every time the game stopped, he was keeled over with both hands on his knees like, like a 53 year old guy playing pickup, you know, over Thanksgiving.

• 58:13Bill Simmons?

  It was pretty brutal. Paul George looked good and Embiid did not. And, uh, and they lost. And I guess this is just how it's going to go as Embiid plays himself into shape. I'm doing air quotes. Philly's two and eight. I don't really see how this Embiid thing goes over the next, I don't know, six, seven, eight weeks, but most of the scenarios are not good. There's a couple of scenarios where it's like three weeks from now, oh my God, Embiid, he's got his legs back. He just put up 48 on Orlando. There's a whole bunch of other scenarios where it's like, yeah, Embiid, they're going to have to shut it down again for a week. Or, oh, Embiid walked off again, or, oh my God, when Embiid plays,

• 58:56Bill Simmons?

  the other team has the highest offensive rebounding rate in the league because he just seems like he's anchored in the middle of the paint. It's not great, Kirk. They just gave him the extension. They built this whole team. They went all in. There was a lot of like preseason hype as a possible champion, which I, I thought was ludicrous. It's not great. What are you seeing?

• 59:17Speaker 04

  I saw one of the worst games I've ever seen Joel play today. Uh, two of 11 in 26 minutes, three rebounds. Uh, this is supposed to be one of the most impactful players in the whole league, man. Uh, and he took it easy and he is, like you say, playing his way into shape, but also the Sixers are playing their way out of any kind of postseason potential. They're like two and eight. Uh, and I, I, it's a lot of Kyle Lowry too out there, uh, cause Maxey's hurt. And I just don't know how much deeper they can dig. And in normal year, they'd be screwed right now, but the East is so bad below the Cavs and Celtics, there's still time for them to be fine.

• 1:00:02Speaker 04

  But what, what I need to see is more from Joel. He did not look active. He did not look competitive. Um, and if that's what we're going to get this year or this fall, like they're not going to be good, period. Um, Jacoby was texting earlier. He didn't seem very impressed. Is that fair to say, Jacoby?

• 1:00:23Speaker 03

  If you give me 40 seconds to tell a personal story, I play a lot of Golden Tee, as you guys know, and I'm very good at Golden Tee. I've got a profile, routinely just put up high scores and wherever I go. People sometimes crowd around. I've played Bill and beaten Bill every time we played, but um, and one time, the great Connor Shell sent me to Vegas to go to like the Golden Tee World Championship. And it was there that I found that I'm not good at Golden Tee. I'm just the better than the people that have to be in my proximity. And I watched these men and women play Golden Tee to a level that I was just not ready to be around. And I felt like that's

• 1:01:08Speaker 03

  how Joel Embiid was this evening. Because there was something, I had much higher expectations for this. Because he played in the Olympics, there was no like reported surgery or injury or anything that's serious. He had the suspension, which delayed his comeback even further. And I actually saw him in pregame and his arms are kind of skinny. And I was like, oh, look, he's in shape. But he was, he was me playing professional Golden Tears tonight. He was not ready for the speed and just the physicality of NBA basketball. There's, I remember one rebound, bounce off the rim, and you watch enough NBA basketball as we do, you're just kind of used to the rhythm of how things work. And it was his rebound. It was a rebound for Joel Embiid. And as a Knicks fan,

• 1:01:50Speaker 03

  I'm assuming that we're going the other way. And Kat just kind of circled around it, grabbed it, and put it back. And I was just like, what was that? It was like, he wasn't even trying. So, this was more of a me problem that I expected so much more from Joel Embiid, because he looked like someone who hadn't played for two years and was just kind of like coming back and should have come off the bench.

• 1:02:13Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, so this, this was something that became a real problem for them in the playoffs. Him protecting the boards from offensive rebounders, people crashing, people out hustling them, basically. It was a big reason why the Knicks won that series. Then you go to the Olympics. It was a big reason why Kerr had trouble playing him, even when he was like able to score, like even against, when they played Jokic. Jokic had four fouls and he put a couple of shots, but he was still like giving up the boards and it just, it feels like when you watch Embiid, when he, he can still get the shots that he wants, whether they go in or not. Whether he's in shape or not, it just seems like he can barrel around, whirl around, he can get position near the basket.

• 1:02:56Bill Simmons?

  But what goes are the protecting his own rim when he's on defense. And just the speed of just being able to move around where it just seems like he's doing this as guys are kind of flying around him. And then there's a clumsiness that seems to ratchet up when the less in shape he is around the basket where he'll get in position and then he'll just come crashing down. I just, I don't see it. I, I really feel like there, there might've been too many injuries for him to come back for at the level that he was at two years from now. So this has now become one of the big stories of the year is, and people are gonna go, well, he's hurt. He's got to play himself back in shape. Well, it's mid-November.

• 1:03:38Bill Simmons?

  You know, the, the Sixers got eliminated from the playoffs at the end of April. He didn't have to play in the Olympics. He did. Um, I don't know how you can't, why you can't stay in shape when you're rehabbing. I guess I just don't understand enough about it. If your knee hurts, aren't there still ways to stay in shape? So you don't look like you're completely, completely, completely gassed four minutes into a basketball game? I don't get it.

• 1:04:06Speaker 04

  Can I ask you guys a question? If this were Shaq, right? If you're tracking Shaq's career from Orlando all the way through the end, what era Shaq is 2024 Joel Embiid?

• 1:04:18Bill Simmons?

  Really important point, and it's something we talked about this summer. Like, this is what happens to big guys. So, right now, he's in like 2000, what he looked like tonight, he's in like the 2008 Phoenix range.

• 1:04:31Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:04:31Bill Simmons?

  Right?

• 1:04:32Speaker 04

  Yeah, that's what I was gonna say, Phoenix era. And it's not pretty, but this is what it looks like. I'm sorry, like, it doesn't always-

• 1:04:41Bill Simmons?

  He's been in the league 11 years. You know? I don't know, I'd be, I'd be losing my, if I was a Sixers fan, I'd be losing my mind. I would just be like, how did all of this happen? Why did he play in the Olympics? What, why didn't you tell us what happened with him with his, with his legs before the season started? Why was there all this mystery around it? Is he healthy now? What's wrong with him now? Can you tell us? And it just seems like they're, I don't know, being super tight lipped about everything. Plus, they gave him the extension, which is the other piece of this. Like, they gave him this massive extension, which is very similar to what happened with the Pelicans with Zion. They kind of doubled down on somebody who had never really shown that they could stay healthy for that long.

• 1:05:24Bill Simmons?

  And that's, you start doing that, it's, you can't come back from that with the way the cap is now. I don't know, bum me out. I like watching Embiid when he's healthy. And I just, the guy tonight didn't even look close.

• 1:05:35Speaker 03

  There's a version of this where after the All-Star game, he's back to being MVP and Embiid. Because we've seen, we've seen peak Embiid be absolutely dominant, just this night after night, not just scoring. Like, do you remember when they used to just like give it to him at the nail and like run around him? And he would just either, if you backed off him, he would turn and shoot, or he would back you down if he had a mismatch. Like, there was a while where they would just, I think Doc was the coach, where they would just give it to him at the foul line and just, that's how they started their offense, and it was beautiful. Because he was playmaking, he was shooting, he was going to the rim, he was step backing. And now, it just seems like that guy just doesn't exist anymore.

• 1:06:12Bill Simmons?

  How does it play out for you Kirk? Cause I'll just tell you this, I've been around a long time and we talked about this over under is like just with the history of the league. And I was talking about how Blake Griffin was a good example of this, who had a different set injuries than Embiid did, but at some point there were too many of them. And it passed the point of no return and you can't come back. And that's what we've seen over and over again. Zion's a really unusual case because it just seems over and over again, it's hamstrings. And like I was driving around my wife yesterday and I had Terrence and Eddie on, they were talking about him and my wife was like, I don't understand if, how do you have like chronically bad hamstrings? Like you just have to stretch and stay hydrated. What's wrong with this guy? And I was like, honey, we've been asking this for six years.

• 1:06:57Bill Simmons?

  There is no answer.

• 1:07:00Speaker 03

  Why does she listen to Terrence and Eddie with you? Like spousal abuse.

• 1:07:05Bill Simmons?

  Better question. She, it was her listening after five minutes straight of her going, get these guys off and put music on. I was like, I just want to hear this top part.

• 1:07:16Speaker 04

  One of those guys. I think to answer your question, I think this is my, first of all, Shaq's a better player, but I would put him in that optimistically, the Miami era Shaq. I think there is.

• 1:07:27Bill Simmons?

  Oh, oh six Shaq, okay.

• 1:07:28Speaker 04

  I think there's a chance that he is still capable of turning a corner and getting in shape.

• 1:07:37Speaker 04

  So I think that's the optimistic version. I think the pessimistic version is Phoenix Shaq, which is like, we're never going to see what we thought we were used to seeing ever again. So I, it feels like he has about 30 games to figure this out. And if he doesn't, that contract is going to be an albatross, plain and simple.

• 1:07:55Bill Simmons?

  Like an all-timer.

• 1:07:57Speaker 04

  An all-timer.

• 1:07:58Bill Simmons?

  Part of me wonders why they brought it back at all. I don't understand what the upside was of putting him out. It just feels like it would be way easier for him to get hurt worse. Then uh then whatever upside you get from actually playing them. A couple more things I had for you guys. Oh, this is along the lines of the injuries thing. I heard uh Jacoby and Verno before Verno spent four minutes Googling MJ's assist record. You guys were talking about why there are more injuries this year. And I was walking the streets of LA. And I was like, you know what? I have a take on this and I'm going to drop it on my podcast tonight. And it's not even that. I might have even said this take before. I just think basketball is way faster.

• 1:08:42Bill Simmons?

  More aggro to play. There's more running. There's more stop and start. There's more collisions. It's a completely different sport than it was 40 years ago. And anybody who says differently because they watch like on TikTok, the montage of the bad boy Pistons clotheslining a couple guys like, I'm telling you, people played way harder now than they did in the eighties and nineties. And here's how I know. Go on YouTube and watch any of the regular season games from back then. There's not guys chasing out on the side and flying out. There's not like these massive collisions over and over again. It was just completely different. It was a lot of post up stuff, a lot of guys standing around. The fast breaks were like nice and smooth and well orchestrated and just layups and

• 1:09:25Bill Simmons?

  I just think it's a more violent sport now, for lack of a better word. That's what I see. Like Chet Holmgren got hurt on like a violent collision where he's trying to protect the basket, which by the way, he does a million times, right? And it finally went wrong on him. But um I just think the way the sport's played now contributes to it. And I don't really think there's another answer. What do you think, Kirk?

• 1:09:46Speaker 04

  Yeah, I think so. I think pace and space are a big part of it. And tonight was a great example. We were texting about the the sort of awful Tim Hardaway injury that happened in in the Detroit game. And he got that that was a very violent play. And then in that same game, I think it was Jaden Ivey got caught like on a closeout and landed on his spine. And then you look at all the pelicans and the hamstring injuries. I think those are resulting from the sport being faster and really demanding on on athletes, uh being athletes for a huge amount of time. Running up and down, side to side in ways that you're that Kevin McHale never did, or Robert Parish never did.

• 1:10:28Speaker 04

  Um, and I think both of those things are a factor. Uh, it's still a very physical sport. And 82 games of this is the other thing I would say is it's not just the game is faster and wider. We're still asking the guys to play 82 of them. And that's a lot.

• 1:10:46Bill Simmons?

  Plus playoffs.

• 1:10:47Speaker 04

  Plus playoffs, plus potentially the Emirates Cup championship, that 83rd game for, uh, for two, two, two lucky teams. So I think all of those things lead into it, but you're exactly right. It's the demand on the bodies in the pace and space era. It's just unprecedented by NBA standards.

• 1:11:06Bill Simmons?

  Plus, Jacob's not being able to do cocaine anymore like he could in the seventies and eighties.

• 1:11:10Speaker 03

  No, see, I was gonna go the other way. They don't drink enough beer. I mean, that's really what it is. Look, look, the MVP of the league, the undisputed best player in the league is fat and he doesn't jump and he doesn't run fast.

• 1:11:25Bill Simmons?

  He's, he's not fat. He's lumpy.

• 1:11:27Speaker 03

  He never gets hurt. Do you know why he doesn't get hurt? Cause he doesn't have fast twitch muscles. He doesn't change directions. He doesn't jump in the air and collide against his defender and then double clutch and try to do a 360 and finish with his left hand. And I think that I am joking somewhat, but it just speaks to your original point is it's just so much faster and you kind of now have to be an absolute physical freak of nature

• 1:11:50Bill Simmons?

  He's to be LeBron.

• 1:11:51Speaker 03

  To play this sport. And, and then you look at someone like Zion where it's like, yeah, he's 300 pounds. He could 360 windmill. That's not normal.

• 1:11:59Bill Simmons?

  That's not normal.

• 1:11:59Speaker 03

  It's not normal. And when you watch him play, he goes, he goes into his defender and he bumps into his defender, clears space and finishes with his left hand. And like there is collision after collision in the air, which leads to things like Chet.

• 1:12:12Speaker 04

  And if you look at Bill, if one other thing, I was talking to Rod Adams from the Warriors. You can remember Ron Adams, their old coach. And he was, he told me one time, he's like, Kirk, basketball used to be a two foot sport and now it's a one foot sport. So if you look at Jokic's teammate, Jamal Murray, he tore his ACL doing what? A Euro step. That move didn't exist 25 years ago. Dejounte Murray tore his, all Jonathan Isaac tore his, a lot on these one-legged moves. So it used to be two feet in the paint, drop step in this. And now it is torque. On that one foot drive and that's very violent on your knees. Uh, and I think on your muscles too, but it was just a from a guy.

• 1:12:54Bill Simmons?

  That's how Derrick Rose got hurt, by the way, when he same thing flying to the basket. Remember?

• 1:12:58Speaker 04

  Yeah. One foot. Here I go as fast as I can. Euro step, decelerate, put everything on my lower body. That I can. And it was just a guy who'd been in the league for 50 years being like, here's something that's different. And it was so authoritative and simple, but I do think like, just like those fundamental offensive moves, like going from the drop step to the euro step increased a lot of injury risk. Uh, for our guys like Jamal Murray.

• 1:13:27Speaker 03

  Not to mention, when you euro step, you're swinging your elbows through your defender's face.

• 1:13:32Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:13:32Speaker 03

  Don't forget that part.

• 1:13:34Bill Simmons?

  No, one thing I would, another thing along what Kirk said. So you look back like something, as you know, I'll go on eBay at all hours and I'll go on weird auctions and they'll sell the shoes from the 50s, 60s and 70s, you know, and you see the shoes those guys were wearing like, Jesus, like how the fuck did they play in these? Even when you get to the eighties, see like the first, the first Air Jordans, even those would be crazy to play in now. They're because these guys are flying coach, because they were wearing certain equipment that didn't.

• 1:14:06Speaker 03

  Drinking beer.

• 1:14:07Bill Simmons?

  You weren't doing euro step and like fucking Converse's in 1973 because your, your knee would have gone the other direction and probably gone in the first row. So you kind of had to be careful with the equipment. And now the equipment's so good, these guys feel like I can go full speed, stop, do two hop steps, then crash into somebody. And I don't know, I, I really genuinely feel like the game is way more violent and faster. But if you mention this to anybody who played in the league in the seventies and eighties, like if I said that Daddy Johnson on his show, he'd be so fucking mad. Cause they just get insulted like, how dare you? We were playing so hard back then. It's like. I don't know what to tell you. We have the clips.

• 1:14:50Speaker 03

  I've never missed ESPN Sports Science for a single second before this conversation.

• 1:14:57Speaker 03

  Remember Sports Science?

• 1:14:58Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:58Speaker 03

  I've never missed that segment in my sports media diet until right now because I want to hear, when he stepped with his right foot, it's like 14 elephants going 40 miles an hour. And then he turns like an F1 car and it turns around and it turns. And then when he steps with his left foot, it is like the force of a gorilla pounding on a rock as hard as it can. And then he turns like a fish avoiding prey.

• 1:15:24Bill Simmons?

  Bring the show back.

• 1:15:25Speaker 03

  Yeah, let's do it.

• 1:15:26Bill Simmons?

  Here's the other point to this convo. The ultimate zag, we've had injuries this whole time and this year is no different than any of the year. You go back and you look at all the stars, like our guy Jalen, when he was playing, all the guys who got hurt during that era. Grant Hill, Chris Webber, you go on through like a lot of guys either had careers cut short. Tracy McGrady, a ton of knee injuries. You go back to the 80s, like Ralph Sampson, who was basically Wemba Yama before Wemba Yama. And he took a hard fall in the Boston Garden, was never the same and had knee injuries after that. And so we've had injuries all the way through, but to me, it's, it's, I, I, I spend more time watching basketball now,

• 1:16:08Bill Simmons?

  being scared for the guys than I can ever remember before. Like there's plays you're watching in real time going, oh no, oh God. Or like even like the landing, like people, these three point shots where they're just constantly landing on someone's feet, like Tatum the other day. I don't know. It's a Molotov cocktail of injuries. So one other thing I had, I had a couple of other small things for you. Jacoby, this one's just for you. You know, Derrick White, can we all agree shaving his head, great move, right?

• 1:16:37Speaker 03

  Trey Young. Follow suit, bro.

• 1:16:40Bill Simmons?

  Oh, I have a different guy for you.

• 1:16:41Speaker 03

  You're in the building, Trey Young. Oh, I, I'll guess who it is.

• 1:16:45Bill Simmons?

  Okay. Who should be next? Who's the next Eric White?

• 1:16:49Speaker 03

  Suggs.

• 1:16:50Bill Simmons?

  It's time, Suggs.

• 1:16:51Speaker 04

  Wow.

• 1:16:52Speaker 03

  Was that what you were gonna say?

• 1:16:53Bill Simmons?

  Yes.

• 1:16:54Speaker 03

  I knew it. I knew it. I love Suggs so much.

• 1:16:56Bill Simmons?

  Write in my notes. When does Sugg shave his head?

• 1:17:00Speaker 03

  Listen, you know, our, our friend and colleague here, Kirk, Kirk Goldsberry is, uh, he's a big Manu guy. And Manu just sort of like worked it.

• 1:17:09Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:17:10Speaker 03

  He did, but.

• 1:17:10Bill Simmons?

  That was an Argentinian thing, though.

• 1:17:12Speaker 04

  Well, and he came off the bench too. So Trey Young could take two things, I guess.

• 1:17:20Speaker 04

  From our man, Manu.

• 1:17:22Bill Simmons?

  I think it's time for Suggs. Here's another one I got for you.

• 1:17:28Bill Simmons?

  If you, if you gave David Griffin true serum, and you said, yo, dude, if you had to do it over again, would you have traded Zion last summer? Kept Brandon Ingram? And kept Dyson Daniels? And tried to basically sell as high as you possibly could on Zion over doing this whole roller coaster ride another year? Would he say, yeah, shit, I should have traded him, Kirk?

• 1:17:54Speaker 04

  It's getting close. I will say yes. I will say yes to that, uh, because it appears like here we are one more year. And I think for me, this was the breaking point year for Zion. I don't know where Griff is, but Dyson Daniels looks like a real player. Uh, Larry Nance, as we mentioned earlier, and by the way, the, don't forget the picks. So if you had traded Zion, you would have gotten something probably pretty significant back. At that moment, remember in the, the playing games, he, he was playing really well. And then he got hurt there too. Uh, against the Lakers.

• 1:18:29Speaker 04

  I'd say yes, because it looks like at this point, the other thing, and I'd say to David Griffin's, he's done a great job drafting Herb Jones, Trey Murphy.

• 1:18:36Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:36Speaker 04

  These are great. These are nice players he's put together there. Yeah, he could, he could do, uh, he could do a great job with, with, uh, with whatever they brought back, either in draft assets or, or talent, I think. So I'd say yes. I think that's a good point. And I, I wish I wasn't saying yes, cause Zion is my favorite NBA player to watch when he's out there being Zion and, uh, doing all those aforementioned dangerous moves, putting more torque on his one leg than anybody else in human history ever has. Could you imagine the sports science segment on that, Jacoby?

• 1:19:08Bill Simmons?

  Now your favorite player is Scoot Henderson. Um, my son said today, we were talking about Zion and he was like, thank God we didn't get those boxes. Cause he, the Zion rookie, the prison boxes. And they were super high because there was so much Zion hype. And I was telling him like, we gotta wait. The prices are too high. They'll dip down. And then Zion, a couple of good things happened. They dipped up and we just kind of forgot about it. And now it's like, you know, now, now I said to him, probably the same thing's gonna happen with Wemba Yama. Just be relieved. We never got the boxes. I'm just, I'm just feeding Jacoby.

• 1:19:44Speaker 04

  This is unnecessary.

• 1:19:47Bill Simmons?

  Jacoby's, are you back in? Cause he had one good game against Utah.

• 1:19:50Speaker 03

  Two good games, two good games. Well,

• 1:19:52Speaker 04

  Sacramento.

• 1:19:52Speaker 03

  Here's the thing is my, my criticism of the, the Victor Lusbon Yama shot diet started two weeks ago. And now it's become mainstream. It's like your favorite band that blew up. So now it's like, yeah, it's like, now it's everyone's, everyone's doing it. So now it's like, all right, everybody have fun. You can play with my toys. I'll make new toys. That's how I feel.

• 1:20:14Bill Simmons?

  Kirk, do you like Jacoby's theory that Wemby is basically like a kid who's been homeschooled and giving candy for dinner every night? And has never been scolded or yelled at, or even like had a hand wrist?

• 1:20:26Speaker 04

  No, I do not like this theory at all. Uh, I think he remains the best prospect in pro basketball. Um, I will meet him halfway though. If there's something that really irritates me about the young man's development. It's his jump shot and his tendency to lean on it too much when it's more Westbrook than Curry. And I feel like nobody can stop this guy inside of eight feet that I've seen. And I feel like he needs to do that and the team needs to help him get there more often. Um, he's shooting 25% from three. Uh, his jump shot in the mid-range is one of the worst in the league efficiency wise. This is not unusual for a young potential superstar.

• 1:21:10Speaker 04

  Uh, but it's frustrating when that young potential superstar has the potential to be the most dominant interior player of his era. Uh, and so every time we're spending more and more time away from the basket, we're not getting towards his true calling, which is to be, I think the best player near the hoop, Bill.

• 1:21:27Speaker 03

  Kirk, Kirk, I want to, I want to ask you a question, right? Because I know you know this more than almost anybody on the planet. Is, we always talk about what he's shooting from three, what percentage he is, or what he did that night. Right? But you know better than anybody on the planet that not all three pointers are created equal. You know what I mean? There's a difference between like a catch and shoot, swing, swing, corner three, when you're buck naked. And when you're six foot eight, seven foot six, and you're taking step backs with like a point guard on you. Or you're shooting from 28 feet instead of toes on the line. Like, it's, it's not just that he's such a, thus far this season, a poor three point shooter. Albeit, he has shot well the last two games. It's the, it's, it's the, it's not what you do, it's how you do it.

• 1:22:11Speaker 03

  It's the threes that he's getting that I find so frustrating as well. It's like, you're seven foot six. Why are you taking Dame Lillard type threes? Why?

• 1:22:19Speaker 04

  Right, particularly in a team environment where those shots were outlawed for, for years. When there were guys on the roster that probably could do that. Uh, so, you know, we were the, we were the last team to sort of let our players dribble into, to threes when I was around there. Um, so I agree with this. And again, his shot diet is something that needs to be talked about and improved and optimized. And for me, yeah, you're right. This dude should probably start with catch and shoot threes. Um, and shots near the basketball hoop. Um, these, these off the dribble, Euro step, when they work, it looks great when his, when his step back works, I should say. Uh, but it doesn't work enough. Um, and it's, it's hurting the team's offensive efficiency overall.

• 1:23:02Speaker 04

  So I think this team, if it wants to compete, they need to optimize their, their star player.

• 1:23:07Bill Simmons?

  You know, and the rewatchables, we subscribe to a one for them, one for them, one for them, one for them, one for us. Philosophy. Jacoby benefited from one for us when we did Project X. Definition of a one for us. I think with Wemby, they should have a one for them, one for us. Philosophy, it's like, you can shoot that three every once in a while, but that's going to be a one for you. We need to near the basket. How about, how about little eight footers? How about like that little baseline bank shot you have? How about studying some Kareem skyhook stuff? Because guess what? Nobody will ever be able to block it from seven feet. Just kind of vacillate between those two worlds.

• 1:23:47Bill Simmons?

  I never think, he should never shoot more than one third of his shots should be threes. If it's anything higher than that, all it does is take him away from around the basket of the rebounding. I've talked about this stuff many things. Last thing I have for you, Jacob's. Jovic today had the worst in game broken nose I've seen in a while. Did you see it?

• 1:24:06Speaker 03

  No, I did not see it.

• 1:24:08Bill Simmons?

  It was a collided head and he was walking off and his nose was like, it was doing his, it was one of those. Felt bad. Dottie, you had, you've had a, you had how many broken noses playing hoops?

• 1:24:22Speaker 03

  I've had a lot of broken noses, not all of them playing hoops, but most of them playing hoops. It's getting to the point where my nose is just, uh, it's a collection of cartilage that doesn't speak to each other anymore. So when I break it playing hoops, I stop the game for like 15 seconds. And people are like, your nose is broken. I was like, no, it was like that before and I just continue to play. I just continue to play.

• 1:24:42Bill Simmons?

  Kirk, any last predictions before we go? NBA season through three weeks. When do the Cavs lose?

• 1:24:48Speaker 04

  Yeah, when do the Cavs lose is the right one to finish on. I think this team goes at least 16 and O. If you look at their schedule, I don't want to jinx it, but if I'm just playing the numbers, I think they can go. I think they play your team in Boston coming up, right? That, yeah, I think they, that's going to be one of the big games.

• 1:25:09Bill Simmons?

  At Tilly tomorrow.

• 1:25:10Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:25:11Bill Simmons?

  Home, Chicago, home, Charlotte. And then they'd be going for 16 and O against Boston.

• 1:25:17Speaker 04

  And so I think only one team has done more than 15 and O. And that was the Warriors that did 24 and O, uh, Grant Linder era Warriors. Durant, oh, no, it was the right after Grant, it was the 15, 16.

• 1:25:27Bill Simmons?

  Similarities to that Warriors team that I know a bunch of people have brought up, but new coach comes in. There's good nucleus in place. They were pretty good last year, but not, something was missing and now it all kind of fell into place.

• 1:25:40Speaker 04

  Incredible shooting, uh, jump shooting and then high defensive potential with, with their, with their bigs. So I like that analogy. I'm not ready to give a more your status.

• 1:25:50Bill Simmons?

  No, but you know what I mean? Yeah, nobody's gonna, but that 2015 Warriors team was 30 to one to win the title before the year. And ended up going 67 and 15. And even as they were winning playoff rounds, people were like, eh, eh, can you win a title this way? And I feel like we'll be doing that with the Cavs as they keep going. What were you saying, Gups?

• 1:26:13Speaker 03

  Do you think it would be good for the Cavs to lose a game just to sort of end this? I do.

• 1:26:22Bill Simmons?

  Interesting. I, I, to me, it's like they have a real chance if Porzingis is out until mid-December range. That they could make a real run trying to be the one seed, which I think is incredibly valuable. As you know, I care about having a game seven at home. It's one of my crazy takes that I planted my flag on over the years. Game sevens at home, good. But I think they could do it because this Celtics team, it's pretty vulnerable game to game. Like I went to the Brooklyn game Friday that they almost lost. They end up beating in Brooklyn in OT. Atlanta tonight, like they don't, they don't have a lot of size. You can get to the rim on them without Porzingis. And with Horford at this different point in his career where they're just trying to keep them

• 1:27:04Bill Simmons?

  ready for April, May, June, like they're, they're, they're not as like deep as I think people seem to think they are. They're not the same team as last year, at least right now. They will be, but I think Cleveland could get some distance on them. That's gonna be a tough spot for the Celtics next week if they're not 100% healthy because this Cavs team I'm watching, they seem incredibly, incredibly confident in who they are. And they really have a good chemistry. They've figured out the Mitchell Garland into the game stuff, at least so far. Right? I think Mitchell's taken, he's given up real shots this season.

• 1:27:38Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:27:39Bill Simmons?

  So.

• 1:27:39Speaker 04

  Garland is their, Garland is their crunch time guy. It's, yeah, Conover's their main time guy. And then it goes to Garland for crunch time and it's been great. And Evan Mobley's been better. Ty Jerome's been great. They're finding some.

• 1:27:55Bill Simmons?

  Classic, right? That they, he, he was on the Warriors a couple of years ago and Kerr loved him. And, uh, and then Atkinson just kind of filed it away and then took him to Cleveland. And, you know, he's like a sixth man of the year candidate.

• 1:28:08Speaker 04

  Yeah, so that's the spot they need to really get production from is the wing in between their incredible front court and their incredible backcourt. Can they find some Dean Wade magic, some Karis Levert magic, some Akoro magic and then Ty Jerome. So they they've found some depth there. I think they're the real deal. I'm not ready to say they they're gonna beat your Celtics, but I could definitely see him being undefeated going into that game. And it's in Boston, right, Bill? I think that game next week.

• 1:28:33Bill Simmons?

  It's in Boston. I'm taking the Cavs completely seriously. I think they're I think they're legit good. I don't think I don't think there's any bullshit with this. I think it's real.

• 1:28:42Speaker 03

  It has me starting to look back at the Kenny Atkinson Brooklyn Nets era, because there was some teams.

• 1:28:50Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:50Speaker 03

  They were because that like Jared Allen was there, Karis Levert there, now currently on the Cavs. They had the the best D'Angelo Russell ever. He's never gonna return to that. And they had like Jared Dudley and they're having they had these like bench celebrations. They felt like a true, great chemistry, good vibes, young, vibrant team that was coming together and winning games and going to the playoffs, which sort of enticed the the Kyrie KD invasion, which sort of ended that era. And I'm starting to look back on it being like, huh, like, huh.

• 1:29:22Bill Simmons?

  I always thought they were really well coached.

• 1:29:23Speaker 03

  Really, really good coach. Yeah, maybe they're a really, really good coach that sort of tried to upgrade through superstars and it completely backfired for a million different reasons. But you think back at Kenny Atkinson as a Nets head coach, and they're not gonna build a statue outside of Barclays. But like, when you revisit those years, you can sort of see the seeds of this success.

• 1:29:44Bill Simmons?

  What do you think their over under is right now for wins for the season? If you had to guess?

• 1:29:48Speaker 04

  Fifty eight and a half.

• 1:29:51Bill Simmons?

  What do you think it is, Jacobs?

• 1:29:52Speaker 03

  I'm gonna go 62.

• 1:29:56Bill Simmons?

  62? That's 55 and a half. 55 and a half right now.

• 1:30:01Speaker 04

  55 and a half. What's Boston?

• 1:30:05Bill Simmons?

  Boston's off because of, I think, because they played tonight. Nobody that played tonight is in there. What do you think the Lakers are?

• 1:30:16Speaker 04

  Forty three and a half.

• 1:30:18Bill Simmons?

  Forty six and a half. That's the thing. There's still some value with some of this stuff.

• 1:30:23Speaker 03

  Get Bronny back. They're gonna run. Yeah.

• 1:30:26Bill Simmons?

  Well, Bronny, a couple G League games, probably help him. All right, Kurt Goldsberry, Dave Jacoby. It was a Grant Lane reunion podcast. Great to see you guys. Thanks for staying up with me tonight.

• 1:30:38Bill Simmons?

  All right, that's it for the podcast. Thanks to Goldsberry and Jacoby. Thanks to Steve Sarudi and Kyle Crichton as well. Don't forget, you can watch all the clips and videos from this podcast on the Bill Simmons YouTube channel. I will see you on Thursday.

• 1:31:16Bill Simmons?

  Must be 21 plus and present in select states. For Kansas, an affiliation with Kansas Star Casino. Or 18 plus and present in DC. Gambling problem? Call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit RG-help.com. Call 1-887-897777 or visit ccpg.org/chat in Connecticut or visit mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit Gambling Helpline MA.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24/7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-8778-HOPE-NY or text HOPE-NY in New York. This episode is brought to you by Whole Foods Market. Get everything you need to win Thanksgiving at Whole Foods Market. We're talking seasonal favorites from the bakery, easy weeknight meals

• 1:32:00Bill Simmons?

  for before the big day, and sales on body care and candles for last minute gifts. Plus, with more than 300 banned food ingredients storewide, you know it's quality you can trust. Shop Thanksgiving favorites with higher standards at Whole Foods Market. Prime members shop at wfm.com and get your first order over $25.00 delivered free. Terms apply.

• 1:32:21Speaker 05

  Fox News. Continued coverage of Democracy 26 is streaming live on Fox One. The outcomes of the midterm elections are far from over, so stay with Bret Baer and Martha McCallum for Fox News ongoing election coverage. Stream Fox News live on Fox One to get up to the minute results and expert analysis from the voices you trust as America decides the balance of power. Stream continued coverage of Democracy 26 live on Fox One. Watch three days free.