Courtney Dauwalter: Mindset Secrets From The World's Best Ultrarunner

We tend to think of high-performance athletes as superhuman—a rare species with extraordinary strength and a preternatural ability to suffer. But if you ask today’s guest what distinguishes the elite athlete and everyone else, she’ll say nothing. For her, the secret to high-level performance isn’t about cutting edge training plans, coaches, or carefully honed nutrition. For her, it’s instead found in seeking out and celebrating the pain cave, that deep place of physical discomfort most go to great lengths to avoid. Meet Courtney Dauwalter, the world’s best female ultrarunner—and when it comes to races 200 miles and longer—arguably the best period. A humble mater of grit and boundary-busting physical prowess, Courtney is universally loved and admired for her winning smile, mental fortitude and intuitive training style (she doesn’t even have a coach). In addition to being named one of the 50 Fittest Athletes in the World by Sports Illustrated and a two-time Ultrarunner of the Year, among her countless accomplishments, Courtney: won the 2017 Moab 240 (including beating all the men) by an astonishing 10 hour margin; won the 2020 Big Dog Backyard Ultra by clocking 283 miles (again beating all the men); won the women’s division of 2018 The Western States 100; broke the Tahoe 200 female course record in 2018 by 18+ hours; and was the fastest female at the 2019 UTMB, considered the world’s most prestigious ultra Not bad for an athlete who didn’t even begin her professional running career until she was 32 years old. The thing about Courtney is that she lives in the moment. She’s a doer. She doesn’t overthink things. She trains on feel, eats what she wants, and does it all with joy and a laudable degree of humility and perspective. But behind it all is a very intentional human—an athlete of unparalleled mental fortitude with the drive required to test the very limits of human capability. Today we get into all of it. Courtney shares the mindset techniques and tactics that have propelled her superhuman accomplishments. She shares her perspective on career longevity. Her evolution as an athlete. How she approaches unlocking unprecedented performance. And the purpose that lives beneath it all. But if you extract anything from this conversation, may it be the importance of having fun. Why taking things lightly is strength and not a weakness. When you reframe pain as a destination rather than an obstacle, truly anything is possible. To read more click here. You can also watch our exchange on YouTube. And as always, the podcast streams wild and free on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. An athlete I’ve admired for many years, I aspire to Courtney’s unique blend of grit and joy. Yes, she is a badass. But she’s also a good sport. A better human. And an absolutely delightful hang. Enjoy! Peace + Plants, Rich Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Rich Roll?

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• 1:05Courtney Dauwalter?

  People are selling themselves short and setting their bars too low of what they could actually do if they went all-in on something. Whatever they're psyched about, to just see what happens if they invest a little more time and energy into it. I mean, our minds are so powerful, so even just like changing the storyline makes it a whole different game. So I call it the pain cave, that place. And I guess probably four or five years ago, I viewed the pain cave as like this place that you should try to put off as long as possible in a race. Like, make your pain cave be as far away from you as you can, and if you arrive to

• 1:48Courtney Dauwalter?

  it, then you just sit in it and you try and survive the pain cave. But in the past couple of years, I mean, it's just a mindset, right? It's like all in our heads, this thing. And in the past couple of years, it's been the place I want to get to, so like changing it to a place where I get to celebrate that I made it there. And then that's where the work actually happens. So making the pain cave bigger is how I view it, instead of like pushing the pain cave away. Yeah, and I mean, it's just telling myself a different story about that place where it hurts so bad, you know, where before it was like surviving it and now it's like,

• 2:30Courtney Dauwalter?

  this is so cool. We made it here and now we work. I'm Courtney Dauwalter and this is the Rich Roll Podcast.

• 2:52Rich Roll?

  Hey, everybody. Welcome to the podcast. My name is Rich Roll. I am your host and my guest today is the world's best female ultra runner, straight up. And when it comes to the really long stuff, races 200 miles and longer, this person is arguably the best, period. Lover of nachos, fashion icon, joke teller, Courtney Dauwalter is a humble master of mental grit and boundary busting, physical prowess, and honestly, just really fun to hang out with. In addition to being named one of the 50 fittest athletes in the world

• 3:34Rich Roll?

  by Sports Illustrated and a two-time ultra runner of the year, among Courtney's countless wins and many accomplishments, she was the overall winner, including beating all the men at the Moab 240 in 2017, a race she won by an absolutely mind blowing 10 hours. What else? Earlier this year, she won the last man standing big dog backyard ultra by clocking 283 miles, again, beating all the men as well. She also won the women's division of the Western States 100 in 2018. She broke the Tahoe 200 female course record

• 4:13Rich Roll?

  in 2018 by 18 plus hours. She was the fastest female at UTMB in 2019, perhaps the world's most prestigious ultra. The other week, however, subsequent to this conversation, which was recorded at the beginning of June, Courtney had a bit of a rough go of it at the Hard Rock 100, dropping out around mile 62 due to some stomach issues, but she will be towing the start line at UTMB on August 23rd.

• 4:44Rich Roll?

  This one is fun. It was a total honor to spend time with Courtney, and it's all coming up in a few. But first.

• 4:59Rich Roll?

  The thing about Courtney is this is a person who lives in the moment. She's a doer. She doesn't overthink things. She trains on feel, on intuition. She eats what she wants, and she does it all with joy, with an infectious smile, and a really laudable degree of humility and perspective. But I think behind it all is a very particular mental fortitude, an unreal capacity for suffering, and a drive to test the very limits of human capability. Today, we dive into all of it. She is a true delight. She's a good sport. And I should say that when we wrapped, I had the rare good fortune

• 5:44Rich Roll?

  to hit the trails with her and our mutual friend, Billy Yang, which was fun, also humbling, but a treat for sure. So that's it. Let's go. This is me and Courtney Dauwalter.

• 6:00Rich Roll?

  All right, all right, all right. You're actually here.

• 6:03Courtney Dauwalter?

  Oh, jeez.

• 6:05Rich Roll?

  Oh, that's so Minnesota. Right out of Fargo.

• 6:10Courtney Dauwalter?

  I love Minnesota, and I love Minnesotan sayings. So I'll see how many I can sneak into this conversation.

• 6:16Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I was like, weave them in. Weave them in whenever you want to. It's so nice to meet you. Thank you for coming out to do this. I really appreciate it. I've been looking forward to this for a very long time.

• 6:24Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah, thank you.

• 6:25Rich Roll?

  How are you feeling these days?

• 6:27Courtney Dauwalter?

  Good. Yeah, I'm excited. The snow is starting to melt in Colorado, so.

• 6:32Rich Roll?

  Well, it's June, I hope.

• 6:33Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah, it takes a while.

• 6:36Rich Roll?

  So it's getting warm out there. You're totally healed up after the Colorado Trail bronchitis episode?

• 6:43Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah, totally healed up. I probably only had a couple of months where I noticed that in my lungs last year and then, yeah, it was kind of like all green lights once they healed.

• 6:55Rich Roll?

  And you're getting ready to tackle a pretty auspicious double. You're gonna do UTMB in August, or in Hard Rock 100 in July first, right? And then, right on the back of that, a month later, UTMB.

• 7:08Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah, two 100-mile races. It'll be really cool.

• 7:13Rich Roll?

  Short ones.

• 7:14Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah. I don't, I mean, it's just a fun challenge. I think they're like, six weeks apart. So I have no idea what the time between will look like. I think, just kind of figure that out as I go and try to be ready to rumble at both of them.

• 7:33Rich Roll?

  When you say you have no idea, that's sort of revealing, in terms of your approach to your training, right? Like, you're this intuitive when it comes to how you approach your routine.

• 7:46Courtney Dauwalter?

  Correct. Yeah, there's no plan.

• 7:49Rich Roll?

  That's so crazy. You literally, do you wake up in the morning and then make the decision? Or do you plan the day before? Do you plan a week? I mean, you must have a general idea, other than like, okay, you know, I typically put in 100 miles a week. You must have a little bit more of a specific sense of what you're trying to accomplish. Like, walk me through this, so I better understand. Because you play it off like, with this very aw shucks, you know, disposition, but I know there's more going on.

• 8:19Courtney Dauwalter?

  Nope, it's all aw shucks. No, I, so every day I do wake up and after drinking coffee, I'll figure out what I'm doing that day. There's no like, there's no plan going into a week, what the days might hold. But I will know when races are, and I will know, like, when I can go kind of hog wild with training, and when I should, you know, pull in the reins a little bit and be smart because there's a race coming up, or I should focus on something specific, like climbing in the mountains, or trying to run a little bit faster. So I'll know those things. It's not... Totally winging it in that way, but every single day it's deciding how I feel physically

• 9:04Courtney Dauwalter?

  and mentally to determine what the run will be.

• 9:08Rich Roll?

  Hmm. Is there any scheduling of like, okay, on these days, I typically go longer and these are more tempo days or technique days or speed focused days?

• 9:19Courtney Dauwalter?

  Not really.

• 9:20Rich Roll?

  Or you just go out and go long, pretty much, and just switch up the terrain based upon what you're training for?

• 9:25Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah, a lot of the days are just long days, but I'll do intervals and stuff. I sometimes won't even know when those are going to happen once I'm on the run. There's just a few routes that I'll do where there's a hill that I really like to do intervals on. So if I get to that spot on the route and I feel it, then I'll pop some into it. And if not, then I just carry on.

• 9:49Rich Roll?

  And does that come into play? Like, it doesn't appear that you've ever overtrained, right? Do you know when to back off so you don't kind of tip over into that terrain where you're going to wear yourself down too much and not be able to recover? Is that all on feel as well? Or have you just not? You have such a capacity, you're such a workhorse, that you've never hit that place?

• 10:12Courtney Dauwalter?

  Uh, no, I've made mistakes for sure, or just tried to keep loading it on. But I think that's part of what I like about not having a plan is that I get to just figure it out by making those mistakes. So, run myself into a ground one week and realize like, that was a few too many miles. So now I can go from there and try and, you know, hone in on what I'm doing a little bit.

• 10:39Rich Roll?

  And no coach input?

• 10:41Courtney Dauwalter?

  No.

• 10:42Rich Roll?

  No.

• 10:43Courtney Dauwalter?

  I did though. I mean, I grew up with fantastic coaches. So in high school and in college, I worked with some amazing people. And I think, like, they showed me all the types of workouts that you can be doing. It wasn't for ultra running, but like, I'll still draw on that and, and use some of what I learned from them to decide what I might do.

• 11:08Rich Roll?

  What's interesting about that is you have a science background. You were a science teacher, right? So-

• 11:16Rich Roll?

  Why not avail yourself of like the science like, like, oh, periodization seems to work, or maybe you're already doing that, I don't know. But, you know, there's a lot of athletes, and you see this much more in, in track and field or in triathlon than you do in trail running, where people get really into the graphs, you know, and the heart rates, and the power output, and, you know, all these, all these data points around sleep performance and all of that, and, and, you know, get mired in, in that in terms of trying to figure out how to crack the code on training.

• 11:50Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah, that's exactly what I don't want.

• 11:52Rich Roll?

  Right. In your scientific approach.

• 11:55Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah.

• 11:55Rich Roll?

  Be cut, why not?

• 11:57Courtney Dauwalter?

  I, I mean, I'm having so much fun with how it is right now, and I don't have a reason to change it. I also, I don't know, I, I think that without a plan, I do much better actually listening to my body. So I pay more attention. If there's no schedule and there's no workout written down, then I can really tune in and react, you know, if it's an off day, then I don't do a workout.

• 12:23Rich Roll?

  Right, you have no problem like pulling the plug.

• 12:26Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah, and I don't feel any guilt because there was nothing planned anyways. I don't know, because I haven't had a plan or a coach in ultra running, but I feel like I could get like really attached to it if I had it, and then disregard, you know, any symptoms or signs that I should change course.

• 12:45Rich Roll?

  Hmm, right, thinking, oh, I need to accomplish this because the coach said this is what I need to do. And then that, that ends up corrupting this sort of perfect situation that you have for yourself.

• 12:57Courtney Dauwalter?

  It's not perfect, but I think if it's fun, and I'm enjoying every day, and I'm still like, I'm still getting in the miles and the workouts that I'd like, then I'm gonna stick with it for now. I can see tons of benefits of having a coach, but for now, I would.

• 13:16Rich Roll?

  Keep it this way.

• 13:17Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah.

• 13:17Rich Roll?

  It's working, right? Don't mess with it.

• 13:21Rich Roll?

  I do think that that happiness piece is a big part of your secret sauce. Like, you're able to find the joy in all facets of this. And that seems to be like fuel, right? A lot of people in this subculture, they, you know, are powered by, oh, it's the grit and how hard it is, and I'm gonna really embrace the suffering and, not from a victimhood place, but kind of like a more hardcore relationship to the difficulty of completing these races and the training that goes into them. And you're just having fun, like, all the time. Like, Billy Yang is here, and I texted him the other day, and I told him you were coming. And he's like, oh, that's so great. Hundred percent approval rating in the trail community.

• 14:06Rich Roll?

  Like, there's nobody that doesn't love Courtney. And no matter how hard the race is, or whatever you're enduring internally, you always have a smile on your face, you always have a moment to give a high five to a little kid, or to say a nice thing to a volunteer on the course. And that takes, you know, a conscious effort. Like, there's a certain disposition that you have that seems to be unwavering.

• 14:33Courtney Dauwalter?

  Well, thank you. We're so lucky to be able to choose something like this to do with our time. So I think if you're not having fun with it, then, I don't know, maybe reconsider some things.

• 14:50Rich Roll?

  Yeah. But fun isn't, I mean, it is fun, and everything about trail running is awesome. But for a lot of people, fun isn't in, like, the top five adjectives, you know, how they describe their participation in this. So how do you keep that in check? It's just, it's just natural to you, right?

• 15:11Courtney Dauwalter?

  Must be in Minnesota.

• 15:12Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 15:15Rich Roll?

  I like how you don't seem to overthink things too much. I think that's also, there's a lesson in that, right? Like, you're having fun, you go out, you train really hard, you go in with a smile. You're a competitor, but in your kind of list of priorities, like keeping it fun, keeping it light, staying present with what you're doing, seems to be the priority.

• 15:41Courtney Dauwalter?

  Absolutely.

• 15:42Rich Roll?

  Yeah. I'm sure every interview you do, they ask you, "How come you're so much better than everyone else?" Right? And you always have a very diplomatic response to that. But I don't want to let you off the hook on this. As somebody who's crushed it, there's these famous stories about you winning the Moab 240 by 10 hours and all these other races that you've destroyed, everybody, men included. You seem to sort of shrug it off, but you must think at some point, like, how come this is the case? Like, when you go to sleep at night, do you ever ponder, like, what is the differentiator

• 16:26Rich Roll?

  between you and your fellow competitors?

• 16:30Courtney Dauwalter?

  No, I don't ponder.

• 16:35Courtney Dauwalter?

  Oh, man. I mean, I think everyone can be pushing themselves, so I can't compare what it's like in someone else's body or head than what's going on in mine. So I have no idea. But I do know, like, I enjoy that place that we get to go to in these ultras where it hurts really bad. I think that's pretty cool. And, I mean, that's got to help, like, not avoiding it, but wanting to get to it has got to be factored in there somehow.

• 17:11Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Sure. Okay. Let's go a little bit deeper. Tell me a little bit more about what that is, when you reach that point, or that limit, or that place where you feel like you can't put one foot in front of the other. Like, what is the lesson that you find for yourself in that?

• 17:35Courtney Dauwalter?

  So I call it the pain cave, that place. And I guess, like, probably four or five years ago, I viewed the pain cave as like, this place that you should try to put off as long as possible in a race. Like, make your pain cave be as far away from you as you can. And if you arrive to it, then you just sit in it and you try and survive the pain cave. But in the past couple of years, I mean, it's just a mindset, right? It's like, all in our heads, this thing. And in the past couple of years, it's been the place I want to get to. So like, changing it to a place where I get to celebrate that I made it there.

• 18:18Courtney Dauwalter?

  And then, that's where the work actually happens. So making the pain cave bigger is how I view it, instead of like, pushing the pain cave away.

• 18:28Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm.

• 18:28Courtney Dauwalter?

  And I think, I mean, our minds are so powerful. So even just like, changing the storyline, makes it a whole different game.

• 18:37Rich Roll?

  Right. So what is the story that you, like, what is the script that you flip when you're in that headspace? And it's getting really hard.

• 18:46Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah, it's like, perfect, this is what we wanted. Like, now we get to actually do the hard work of making the cave bigger. And so it's like picturing a chisel and just like, making tunnels in my pain cave in my brain.

• 19:01Rich Roll?

  Right. You actually visualize that?

• 19:04Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah, I'm super visual.

• 19:06Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. I like that. It makes it very visceral and like, real. If you can, it's not just a mantra, and mantras are great, I'm sure you have mantras, but actually creating that three-dimensional image in your mind.

• 19:20Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah. Yeah, and I mean, it's just telling myself a different story about that place where it hurts so bad. You know, where before it was like, surviving it, and now it's like, this is so cool, we made it here, and now, we work.

• 19:36Rich Roll?

  Yeah. It's funny, I've been doing this podcast thing for a couple of years at this point. And I've had a lot of people on who have done hard things. And I have psychologists and psychiatrists and mindset experts. And everybody kind of comes to the table and they're like, this is how you do it. And it's like, step one, two, three. And like, when your mind does this, and you're just like, well, I just, you know, like, you just, like, it's very refreshing because what it does is it dispels this myth that it has to be complicated, or that there is a right or a wrong way. Like, you're just embracing life in all its colors and have figured out this thing that works for you. But it's welcoming to people because, because you're saying, like, look, you know, I'm doing

• 20:21Rich Roll?

  this, you can do this too. Like, you're creating space for other people to see greater possibility in themselves because of that relatability.

• 20:31Courtney Dauwalter?

  Well, thank you.

• 20:32Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 20:33Courtney Dauwalter?

  That's very kind.

• 20:33Rich Roll?

  Yeah, no, I think it's powerful. It's really powerful. In the equation of mind versus body, like, how do you think about that? Like, how much of it is physical prowess versus mental grit?

• 20:46Courtney Dauwalter?

  It's both for sure. And I think in an ultra, it trades back and forth between the two. So, like, maybe for a while, your physical has to pull more of the weight because it can. And then if that's giving out, maybe the mental takes over for a while. So I think they, they tag each other out, back and forth, where you need them for sure. Like, physically, it's hard to run this far. But mentally, you can, like, move your feet much farther than you think.

• 21:18Rich Roll?

  Right, yeah. Ultimately, I think the differentiator is in the mental game because everybody, especially at the elite level, is training really hard. And there's only so much training that you can do before you get injured or you overtrain, right? So when you toe the line at the starting line, you can be assured that everybody who's a threat to your, you know, dominance has put in the work that you've put in, right? So the person who's gonna win, it's gonna come down to who's gonna, who's gonna crack mentally when the tough gets going.

• 21:51Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah, and like, uh, who can, you know, problem solve efficiently? Or not let problems that come up ruffle their feathers too much? I think that's huge in ultras.

• 22:02Rich Roll?

  Yeah, just being able to maintain that positive disposition.

• 22:05Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah.

• 22:06Rich Roll?

  Rather than, oh no, this is terrible.

• 22:08Courtney Dauwalter?

  Right.

• 22:08Rich Roll?

  Awesome. This is what it's about, right?

• 22:10Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 22:13Rich Roll?

  How do you keep a smile on your face and tell jokes and do all that stuff when you're so freaking exhausted?

• 22:21Courtney Dauwalter?

  Jokes help everything.

• 22:22Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 22:23Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah.

• 22:24Rich Roll?

  That's part of the strategy. Sneaky.

• 22:27Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah. I'm actually really bad at telling jokes, so it's like a mental game for myself to try and tell a joke with the correct punchline. So maybe it's like a-

• 22:39Rich Roll?

  Making sure that you're still lucid.

• 22:40Courtney Dauwalter?

  A sanity check, yeah.

• 22:43Rich Roll?

  It is so interesting, that equation between mental and physical. Like, we were chatting before the podcast, I was in Utah the last couple of days. I joined the Iron Cowboy for day 91 on his conquer 100 insanity quest.

• 22:58Courtney Dauwalter?

  So cool.

• 22:59Rich Roll?

  And that guy is a master of the mental game. And he's somebody who's so physically strong, but also somebody whose mental game so far exceeds his physical capabilities, that this guy's willing to just completely break his body. Like, he will not crack. There's no way he's gonna give up for a physical reason. His mental game is so strong that he will literally run his body into the ground and do irreparable damage before he pulls out of this thing, which is worrisome, I think, but also impressive. And one of the things I noticed, I walked a marathon with him the other day, is just his ability to remain positive under all circumstances. And there's so many people that are congregated around him and they all want a piece of him.

• 23:43Rich Roll?

  And he makes time for every single one of those people and then finishes the day. And always like, spontaneously delivers some impassioned inspirational speech for everybody to take home with them.

• 23:57Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah.

• 23:57Rich Roll?

  And the kind of presence of mind that you have to have to do that, I think, is really the differentiator. And the way that you carry yourself has similar, like, what you do is, the way you do it is different. But the, in the Venn diagram, like, it's that positivity piece, I think, that is really powerful.

• 24:17Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah, well, thank you. So what's his mood like as he's walking?

• 24:22Rich Roll?

  Well, you don't know what's going on internally because he refuses to say anything negative.

• 24:27Courtney Dauwalter?

  Okay.

• 24:27Rich Roll?

  So no matter what's happening, he's like, it's awesome. This is great.

• 24:30Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah.

• 24:31Rich Roll?

  You know, it's, it's just like, you know, we're just, we're just doing it, man.

• 24:35Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah.

• 24:35Rich Roll?

  And, you know, like, I'm like, are you okay?

• 24:39Courtney Dauwalter?

  That's cool.

• 24:40Rich Roll?

  I think he is, like, he, he seems genuinely in a good place right now. And he's had his ups and downs, of course, over the last 93 days or whatever it is.

• 24:48Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah.

• 24:48Rich Roll?

  And he will have completed it, um, hopefully by the time this goes up. But it's, you know, there's, there's so much to learn by just observing somebody like that.

• 24:57Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah, for sure. What you project out, I mean, hearing it, like, you're hearing it in your head. But when you say it out loud, it can make a huge difference.

• 25:07Rich Roll?

  Right, right. It makes it real.

• 25:08Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah.

• 25:09Rich Roll?

  Or more real, at least.

• 25:10Courtney Dauwalter?

  I've told, so my husband is, um, often the crew at my races. And beforehand, we're always like, I don't know, I tell him, just don't ask me how it's going during. Because if it's going bad, I don't need to tell you that, like, you know? And if it's going good, we don't need to say that either. Let's just, like, carry forward.

• 25:29Rich Roll?

  Right, right, right, right.

• 25:30Courtney Dauwalter?

  Because it does nothing to tell you how bad my legs hurt right now.

• 25:34Rich Roll?

  Is that outlook something you've always had or something that you've developed or, or learned?

• 25:40Courtney Dauwalter?

  To not want to share how it's going.

• 25:42Rich Roll?

  No, no, no, just, just being, like, understanding the power of positivity and, you know, and having that kind of fortitude around protecting, you know, um, your state of mind. Like, is that a Minnesota thing? Is that, is that the way your parents raised you? Is that something you've learned as an athlete in high school? Or is that just Courtney?

• 26:03Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah, I, I feel like ultra running has taught a lot of it to me. When you're in those 100 or 200 mile races, you can learn a lot about what your brain can do and what's helpful from your brain. But for sure, it's got to come a little bit from my upbringing, from my parents, my coaches, my friends and just examples.

• 26:28Rich Roll?

  What do you think about? I mean, your accomplishments put you in the bullseye of this ongoing, I don't want to call it a debate, a conversation around the role of male versus female in terms of prowess in the ultra world, right? Like, the longer, the science basically proves that the longer the distance is, the less of a difference sex makes, right? So, these two forties, like, these super-long races, like, whether you're male or female, seems to not make very much of a difference. And it's one of the few sports in which the women can, like, crush the dudes.

• 27:10Courtney Dauwalter?

  I think as the distance increases, it becomes a little more equal, for sure, because then it is a lot in your head. And it's about, you know, persistence and problem-solving and some stubbornness, you know, all of those factor in quite a bit as you're out there for over 24 hours.

• 27:30Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 27:30Courtney Dauwalter?

  I think, like, Big's Backyard is a great example of a format that I think is pretty equal in what's possible and who might win it every single year. Where it's that four-mile loop every single hour, line up on the hour, every hour and do it again, until no one will anymore.

• 27:50Rich Roll?

  Right. It becomes a, it becomes a battle of will, as much as anything else, right? And I want to talk about that in a minute, because I think that's fascinating. But, being a science teacher, former science teacher, right? It makes me think perhaps there is some evolutionary advantage that females developed as the child-reers, that they are, they have, they carry with them, like, a deeper reservoir of psychological endurance and capacity versus men, right? It seems to, like, it would make sense. I don't know if anybody's studied this.

• 28:30Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah, I have no idea. I think it would be a cool thing for someone to focus their studies on if they aren't already.

• 28:37Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah, it's wild, it's wild. I remember, like...

• 28:43Rich Roll?

  Before you were born, when I was, after I was, I grew up as a swimmer. And after college, I moved to New York City and my roommate, this guy Matt Nance, was a teammate of mine, very good swimmer, much better than me. And he decided to do the race around Manhattan, which is a 28 mile swim around the island of Manhattan.

• 29:03Courtney Dauwalter?

  Jeez.

• 29:03Rich Roll?

  And at this time, I had no interest in any, I was like, go, go for it. Like, I'm not interested.

• 29:10Rich Roll?

  And he ended up getting second place. And I think he, I can't remember, this was like 1990. I think he broke the course record, but he got beat by a 15 year old girl from Australia.

• 29:20Courtney Dauwalter?

  Wow.

• 29:21Rich Roll?

  This girl, Susie Maroney, who, who ended up winning that race a bunch of times, maybe three times or something like that. You know, so at a 28 mile swim, like she just, she just crushed him. She beat him by like five minutes or something like that.

• 29:34Courtney Dauwalter?

  Really?

• 29:34Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 29:35Courtney Dauwalter?

  A sprint finish?

• 29:36Rich Roll?

  Uh, no, I think she had a good lead on him.

• 29:38Courtney Dauwalter?

  Okay.

• 29:39Rich Roll?

  Yeah, at that point. But, you know, it goes to that point of when you reach a certain distance, I don't want to say gender, because it's not gender, it's sexual, it's, what do you call it? Sexual genetics, really don't play the factor that they do in other sport pursuits.

• 30:02Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah, I mean, I think it gets closer, for sure. I would love to just, I mean, 200s are kind of new. So I would love to, you know, see how over the years with, if there's more men, more women competing, like just get more people out there and see what happens. Because I think, I mean, those 200s are fun, because there's like, not a ton of information about how they're done, or you know, what's the formula to do this as fast as possible? Whereas like, there's tons of 100 mile races that, I mean, you can look at people's splits, you could, you know, read about their very specific training, like, there's all sorts of information about that.

• 30:44Courtney Dauwalter?

  And the 200s, I think, it's just a little less known. And there's a few more variables that make it hard to...

• 30:52Rich Roll?

  Right. Yeah, it's the, it's at the cutting edge of where this sport is going. I mean, it's crazy how much the sport has blown up. And the fact that so many people sign up for 100 mile races now is like wild.

• 31:03Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah, they all sell out.

• 31:04Rich Roll?

  I know. Yeah. And...

• 31:08Rich Roll?

  It's weird how the mind goes, well, okay, 200, like as if it's somewhat the same thing.

• 31:13Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah.

• 31:15Rich Roll?

  It's only double like the longest thing you can ever imagine, right? And how many people are actually signing up for 200? I mean, in maybe in five or 10 years, it will be like the hundreds are right now, right?

• 31:27Courtney Dauwalter?

  I think so.

• 31:27Rich Roll?

  But there's so little, it's so new, right? That you're one of the pioneers here trying to figure out how to optimize performance at that distance.

• 31:37Courtney Dauwalter?

  It's a fun one to play with.

• 31:39Rich Roll?

  Do you wish that the races were like 300 miles?

• 31:41Courtney Dauwalter?

  Absolutely.

• 31:42Rich Roll?

  400 miles, like the longer the better, right?

• 31:44Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah, keep going.

• 31:45Rich Roll?

  I know when you were on Rogan, there was some discussion about a 500 mile race.

• 31:49Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah, that hasn't happened yet. But like the Colorado Trail that I tried is about 500 miles. And so I was kind of looking for, starting to figure out that distance with that.

• 32:00Rich Roll?

  Right, so that was your first FTK attempt that was sort of a COVID inspired pursuit, right? Like all the races were canceled, so you were going to tackle this trail, which takes you from Durango to Denver?

• 32:13Courtney Dauwalter?

  Correct.

• 32:14Rich Roll?

  500 miles?

• 32:15Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah.

• 32:16Rich Roll?

  You had a little hiccup, though.

• 32:17Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah.

• 32:17Rich Roll?

  What happened?

• 32:19Courtney Dauwalter?

  Well, oh, man, it's a beautiful trail. I mean, it's this beautiful single track that goes over tons of mountain ranges through the state of Colorado. And I'd been eyeing it for a few years, but the pandemic and all the races being canceled for sure suddenly made it like, I mean, we had a wide open summer to just go for it. So I ended up making it about 300 and, I don't know, five miles. And then was put in the ER because my lungs just weren't working like they were supposed to.

• 32:53Rich Roll?

  Yeah, you had to be put on like oxygen, right?

• 32:56Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah.

• 32:57Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 32:57Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah, it was weird because it started early on, like right when I started the trail. I remember commenting to my crew at one of the stops, like, everything feels amazing, but my lungs just are being lazy right now. I thought they just weren't turning on like the rest of it, but I figured they just needed some more hours, you know? And then they would be, they would realize what we were doing and they would come with.

• 33:22Rich Roll?

  Right, it comes around. Like that's that thing in ultras where you can't really make a informed decision about what's going on or how you feel based on the moment because it changes.

• 33:31Courtney Dauwalter?

  Exactly. But it just kept getting worse, so I was like wheezing and. Coughing up a lot of things and it was preventing like any good forward motion, but also like sleep wasn't possible anymore. Because every time I laid down, I was just like wheezing, like I was breathing through a tiny straw.

• 33:52Rich Roll?

  Right. And you had crew with you the whole way?

• 33:55Courtney Dauwalter?

  I did, yeah.

• 33:56Rich Roll?

  So you were never, you couldn't have been in like, you know, a situation where you were out of cell range or anything like that and in real jeopardy?

• 34:03Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah, I always had a crew, um, I always had someone running with me who had like a satellite thing that they could communicate. So, um, we could have figured it out if anything had really gone, uh, to the garbage, but my crew just like made the call at, uh, 305 where we had stopped for a rest stop. And, uh, they had been, you know, watching this get progressively worse over the course of these days. And then finally they were like, we gotta just go to this hospital nearby and get you checked out. And beforehand I had told them like, you know what we're trying to do.

• 34:46Courtney Dauwalter?

  So if you decide something about like, how much I should rest or not rest or eat or not eat, like, I trust you a hundred percent because I know my brain is going to turn to mush. And so when they said that, I mean, for sure, I needed a little explanation of like, you know, I've been wheezing for hundreds of miles at this point. Like, I thought we were just gonna take that wheeze to Denver. Like, it was coming all the way.

• 35:11Rich Roll?

  That's where like, maybe you don't have a coach, but you need some third party, you know, intervention here because your mental toughness will forbid you from stopping.

• 35:20Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah, I mean, even coming into that spot, I had told them, like, I just want to grab a slice of pizza and then let's keep going, you know, and they were like, no, please stop and rest. So I stopped to rest and then they were like, hey, we're gonna take you to the hospital. Um, and even on the drive to the hospital, in my head, I was like, I'm just gonna tell this doctor what I'm doing and he's gonna say, that's fine, go back out there.

• 35:45Rich Roll?

  He's putting oxygen on your face and saying you're not going anywhere, right? I'm sure they were really worried. I mean, there was a sense that, you know, that something could be really wrong.

• 35:53Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah, and I mean hindsight, like I'm so thankful that the crew made that tough call because they were as invested in it as I was, you know, they didn't want to pull the plug. And that then the doctor, you know, kind of painted the picture of this could have gone really far south if they hadn't brought you in.

• 36:12Rich Roll?

  Right. Do you think it's that thing where you probably had some really low-grade infection, but you're out there crushing it and it just depresses your immune response, right? So it allows that infection to take root in a way that if you were just sitting at home on the couch, you would have been fine?

• 36:29Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah, I think it had to have been something like that because of how it felt at the beginning, where I, you know, wanted my lungs to wake up and they weren't. It feels like something was brewing in there, but with acute bronchitis, they don't have like a, they can't pinpoint the cause.

• 36:47Rich Roll?

  Sure. Yeah. And in these super long races, it's those tiny little things that can end up burying you, right?

• 36:55Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah. Yeah. Which is why it's so cool. I mean, the longer the race gets or the longer the, you know, challenge you're taking on gets, the more puzzle pieces there are that get involved. And I think just playing around with those every time, it makes you better at doing the puzzles, but also like, it's just a fun game to me.

• 37:27Rich Roll?

  So there's events like that, this self-styled, like I'm going to tackle this trail and do it faster than anybody. There's the structured races like the Moab 240 or UTMB, which is kind of like the Super Bowl of trail races. And then there are these last man standing races, right? The backyard ultra that you referenced earlier, which I think is such a cool format.

• 37:52Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yes.

• 37:52Rich Roll?

  Do you, is there one of those formats that you enjoy best? Like, I feel like the... The backyard ultra format, the last man standing kind of thing is perfectly suited for you.

• 38:04Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah, I love those. I love all the events, though. They just change in what I love about them. Like, a 240 or 100 mile race, I love because it's usually a really cool course. You know, you're getting to explore with your feet. And then ones like these loop courses, it's more like exploring in your brain of how to go a little bit deeper.

• 38:29Rich Roll?

  So, for, just so you know, like, there's a percentage of the audience that is probably a super fan of yours and knows everything that you've done, but there's also a large percentage of them for whom perhaps this is their first introduction to you. So, let's talk about what this backyard ultra situation is. You do this four mile loop, right? And basically, they're on the hour, essentially?

• 38:54Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yep.

• 38:55Rich Roll?

  They're on the hour, so you run four miles and however long it takes, and then you just have to start the next loop at the top of the hour. And then you just keep going until no one's left. So, you don't know how long the race is gonna be.

• 39:07Courtney Dauwalter?

  Exactly.

• 39:09Rich Roll?

  Right? And so, you just did this, this past year, and ended up running 283 miles?

• 39:18Courtney Dauwalter?

  That's correct.

• 39:19Rich Roll?

  It's like 67 loops, is that right?

• 39:22Courtney Dauwalter?

  Uh, yeah, 67.

• 39:24Rich Roll?

  You're the science person.

• 39:26Courtney Dauwalter?

  Right.

• 39:27Rich Roll?

  A lot of loops.

• 39:29Courtney Dauwalter?

  67 or 68.

• 39:30Rich Roll?

  Until it was just you and Harvey Lewis.

• 39:32Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah.

• 39:33Rich Roll?

  Right?

• 39:33Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah, who's an amazing human. And it was just the two of us from 200 miles on. So, the way the race works is everyone starts all at once, and then every loop, you're starting again all together. So, you're never, you can't like, get ahead by a certain amount of time or

• 39:53Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 39:53Courtney Dauwalter?

  bank time anywhere. It's one hour, and that's it.

• 39:56Rich Roll?

  We set the clock every lap.

• 39:57Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah.

• 39:59Courtney Dauwalter?

  And you can either quit and refuse to start another lap, or you can miss the hour cutoff. And that's how the field just starts getting smaller and smaller. So it ended up with Harvey and I at about 204 miles or so. And we're, I mean, the cool part about this format is you need each other.

• 40:20Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 40:20Courtney Dauwalter?

  Because once it's, once you're the last person standing, the race is over.

• 40:24Rich Roll?

  You can't keep going.

• 40:25Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah. You don't get to keep doing those four mile laps, even if you feel fine. So Harvey and I were like, full on, let's work as a team. We want to get, you know, over 300 miles. How can we help each other? And we'd talk on the loops, like, what do you need? What do I need? How do we keep this train rolling? But then part of it is also, you've gone so far that you need to like, really just focus on like, not imploding yourself.

• 40:56Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 40:56Courtney Dauwalter?

  And so there were quite a few laps where we were both just like, totally focused inward on, on keeping it moving.

• 41:03Rich Roll?

  Yeah. But that is beautiful and very unique in that your, your main competitor must become your ally if you really want to push the envelope and see what's possible for each of you.

• 41:16Courtney Dauwalter?

  I think it's so cool. And that to be going that far, you both need so many things to have gone right for you. Like, that's a far ways to run with your feet. So there's all these like hurdles along the way that you have to navigate. And to have two people have days like that is, is really special.

• 41:34Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 41:34Courtney Dauwalter?

  But I think, I mean, the whole field is like a team. Everyone wants everyone to keep going. The more numbers you have getting into those higher distances, the more likely everyone is to keep going farther.

• 41:49Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 41:50Courtney Dauwalter?

  Because if you're surrounded by 10 people, it feels less crazy than if you're surrounded by

• 41:55Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 41:55Courtney Dauwalter?

  one person.

• 41:56Rich Roll?

  Right, right, right. Yeah, it goes back to that mental game. It's the same notion that when, you know, prior to Bannister breaking the four minute mile mark, people thought it was impossible. He breaks it, then suddenly, you know, all kinds of people are breaking it. Like, it's so strange that that's the way the human mind operates.

• 42:14Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah.

• 42:15Rich Roll?

  But it is true.

• 42:17Courtney Dauwalter?

  It's very true.

• 42:17Rich Roll?

  Yeah. But did you feel like you, like, you could have kept going? If, if there was somebody, like Harvey taps out?

• 42:26Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah, I mean, yes, I was set on continuing on. And in the moment, I felt like I could do more, but you never know. Like, the race is as crazy as it is because one bad hour can take you out.

• 42:41Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 42:42Courtney Dauwalter?

  And then suddenly you're done.

• 42:43Rich Roll?

  Or one bad footstep.

• 42:45Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah.

• 42:45Rich Roll?

  Where you roll your ankle or something like that happens.

• 42:48Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah. So, yeah, I was, when he dropped, I had gotten into this really good zone. I was like, kind of robotic through the loop. And I knew my spots where I ran and I knew my spots where I walked. And it was like, just put it on autopilot.

• 43:02Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 43:03Courtney Dauwalter?

  Um, yeah. I was kind of having fun, like, being a robot.

• 43:08Rich Roll?

  And where does your mind go? Like, what's happening? Are you daydreaming? Are you focused on what you're doing? Are you listening to music? An audiobook? Like, what, what is that about?

• 43:18Courtney Dauwalter?

  So when he stopped, it was in the night. And in the night sections, we switched to a road out and back. And there's music aloud in the night. So I think I was blasting some music. And then I was, I think I was just like, really embracing the robot mentality of like, don't think about anything, just do.

• 43:39Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 43:39Courtney Dauwalter?

  And like, stay right where your feet are.

• 43:41Rich Roll?

  Hmm.

• 43:42Courtney Dauwalter?

  Because that one, any ultra really, but that format in particular, if you project too far ahead, like, how much farther are we gonna be going? Are you kidding? We have to run until sunrise?

• 43:55Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 43:55Courtney Dauwalter?

  Or like, or you start thinking about how the other person is looking. And like, they'll never quit, you know?

• 44:01Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 44:01Courtney Dauwalter?

  Um, then it can get into your head and spiral pretty quickly.

• 44:05Rich Roll?

  Yeah, none of that's helpful.

• 44:06Courtney Dauwalter?

  No.

• 44:07Rich Roll?

  You just have to be where your feet are, right?

• 44:09Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah.

• 44:10Rich Roll?

  But that's a discipline.

• 44:12Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah, it's hard. Um, but I'll even like, talk outside, uh, I'll talk out loud to myself, like, no, stay right here if I start thinking ahead too far.

• 44:22Rich Roll?

  Yeah, what else do you tell yourself?

• 44:26Courtney Dauwalter?

  Mostly it's like, stay here and then this is fine.

• 44:30Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 44:30Courtney Dauwalter?

  And I'll just say that over and over.

• 44:32Rich Roll?

  This is fine. This is fine.

• 44:33Courtney Dauwalter?

  This is fine.

• 44:34Rich Roll?

  We're good.

• 44:34Courtney Dauwalter?

  No matter what.

• 44:35Rich Roll?

  Uh huh. And when you come in at the conclusion of a, of a loop, obviously you're eating, you're trying to rest, like what does that routine look like? And what is the sleep piece?

• 44:49Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah. I think this is the one where, I mean, just doing the race format, you learn so much from it and seeing, you know, what's helpful, what does five minutes feel like? What does eight minutes feel like?

• 45:03Rich Roll?

  Of sleep.

• 45:03Courtney Dauwalter?

  Learning all of that, or just time, like, I mean, we rarely look and see what five minutes feels like when we're just like in normal life.

• 45:13Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 45:13Courtney Dauwalter?

  But when you're in this format, five minutes is really important and you need to use it fully.

• 45:20Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 45:20Courtney Dauwalter?

  Like, everything should have a purpose. And so, I think I was averaging daytime loops at like, maybe forty-eight minutes or fifty minutes? And then nighttime loops, because it's that road out and back, it's a little easier. And so I was probably coming in at more like forty-five.

• 45:40Rich Roll?

  So you're getting anywhere between ten and fifteen minutes?

• 45:43Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah. At night I was, uh, we had a really good routine of just, I would come in the little tent, I had a cot set up, and I would shovel some bites of food and then I would lay down and I'd have like ten minutes until the two-minute whistle blew. And then I would get up, maybe drink some things and then get back out there. And even if I wasn't falling asleep, I would just lay there pretending like I was sleeping.

• 46:08Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 46:11Courtney Dauwalter?

  And, uh, just convincing myself that that pays off also.

• 46:15Rich Roll?

  Were you able to fall asleep though?

• 46:18Courtney Dauwalter?

  Sometimes, yeah.

• 46:19Rich Roll?

  So there's the famous story of in the Moab 240, you, you, you got one minute of sleep for the whole thing, but you felt like you slept for hours or something.

• 46:27Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah, fully recharged after one minute.

• 46:29Rich Roll?

  Was it really one minute?

• 46:30Courtney Dauwalter?

  It was.

• 46:31Rich Roll?

  It was. That's so crazy.

• 46:33Courtney Dauwalter?

  So crazy. I thought my pacer had tricked me. I thought he let me sleep for forty-five minutes there.

• 46:38Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 46:39Courtney Dauwalter?

  But it was sixty seconds.

• 46:40Rich Roll?

  You were mad at him?

• 46:41Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah.

• 46:43Rich Roll?

  Why'd you let me oversleep?

• 46:45Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah.

• 46:46Rich Roll?

  Now you're getting, you could get like 10 minutes of sleep.

• 46:48Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah. I've never been able to replicate that one minute nap, though. Like, I did another 200 mile race, the Tahoe 200, and I was trying. I was hoping for that magic.

• 46:59Rich Roll?

  Yeah, you're like, I know how to do this now.

• 47:01Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah. I totally thought I'd figured out the sleep thing, and then I couldn't get it to work again. So, I mean, that keeps me coming back to these as well as like, you think you learn something, you think you have a puzzle piece figured out, and then you gotta throw it back in and start again.

• 47:19Rich Roll?

  Do you think that, that the sleep deprivation part of the whole thing is something that some people are better at than others? Or do you think it's just hard for everyone? Like, I feel like maybe you're, you're well-suited to manage that, maybe better than other people? Like, is that part of something you would consider to be an advantage?

• 47:38Courtney Dauwalter?

  Maybe. I'm not sure, though. I think...

• 47:40Rich Roll?

  Yeah, you don't think about it.

• 47:44Courtney Dauwalter?

  That's it. That's my answer for everything.

• 47:46Rich Roll?

  Right, yeah. Well, listen, it's working for you. Don't think about it.

• 47:50Courtney Dauwalter?

  We did it. We figured it out.

• 47:51Rich Roll?

  Well, there's nothing you could do about it. Either you're good at it or you're not, right?

• 47:55Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah, but I've, so I'm still learning. And I'm like, I love that I can use myself as this guinea pig and just test things and see. And like Johann Steen is another runner who has done backyard races amongst many other things. And watching him the first year at the backyard race that I went to, he would come through a loop, sit down, and immediately be sleeping every single lap that year. And so he's like, nailed it. And I would like to figure it out so I could nail it like that.

• 48:31Rich Roll?

  So, as a tinkerer or somebody who is experimenting, but is also self-coached, like, what is something that you've learned over maybe even the last two or two and a half years that you're doing now that you weren't doing in 2018 or 2019? Like, where are the kind of evolutionary arcs in, in your training or your kind of strategy with these races?

• 48:57Courtney Dauwalter?

  That's tricky. I think getting on trails more and yeah, playing on mountains more.

• 49:04Rich Roll?

  More play, more play.

• 49:06Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah. And then I think just learning from all the problems that come up, like you do these long races, inevitably there's problems that come up and then you've experienced those problems. So then you have this filing cabinet in your brain where you can say like, here's all the things that I know of already that can go wrong and that can help you better prepare for the next one where maybe those things happen again, but also maybe something brand new.

• 49:36Rich Roll?

  But also having, having, collecting all those experiences, you know, when things get tough, like I've been here before and this is what I did, or I got through it. So I know I can get through it again.

• 49:46Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah, for sure. I'll think that if I'm, you know, like puking in the bushes, I can open up a whole folder in this filing cabinet of times I've been throwing up during a race. And you know, and like then the options that I have of what worked before or what I at least tried before.

• 50:03Rich Roll?

  Right. I feel like you need to get into a lab and have some tests run, you know, like, like they've done tests on Killian. They know he has a crazy, you know, threshold. Alex Honnold has had his brain analyzed and they realize he, his brain is a little bit different when it comes to his fear response. Like, I feel like we need to get Dr. Andrew Huberman, my neuroscience buddy to test your head and see what's going on. Or like, do you, like, have you had all those markers evaluated? So you know where you are? You haven't even done that, right? Like, I feel like, let's get you in the lab. Let's figure out what's going on.

• 50:40Courtney Dauwalter?

  What if they only find air?

• 50:41Rich Roll?

  But that would be instructive too, right? Now we know, you know, like, like either you have some, you know, genetic disposition that, that differentiates you. And even if you don't, that's super interesting also, you know, because then it does, then it does, I think in my mind, that tells me, oh, this person has developed, you know, a mental toughness that you can't calibrate with any scientific rigor, you know, and that's interesting to explore in and of itself.

• 51:16Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah, I would be curious what.

• 51:20Courtney Dauwalter?

  They would be like testing for or looking for.

• 51:24Rich Roll?

  Well, they could test your like, I mean, you've you've you're not wearing a watch right now.

• 51:28Courtney Dauwalter?

  How do you measure crazy?

• 51:29Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I know, right? I don't know. I don't know. Maybe some scientist knows how to do that. It's not crazy, but you know, they could test your aerobic threshold and your and your resting heart rate and your heart rate variability and like all of that kind of stuff that you ignore.

• 51:44Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah.

• 51:45Rich Roll?

  You wear a watch though, when you're running, don't you?

• 51:46Courtney Dauwalter?

  I do.

• 51:47Rich Roll?

  You wear a heart rate monitor?

• 51:49Courtney Dauwalter?

  Nope. Um, I just have the one that's built into the watch, but I don't really use heart rate.

• 51:54Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm. Just go.

• 51:57Courtney Dauwalter?

  Is that surprising?

• 51:58Rich Roll?

  No, it's not surprising at all. Like I've I kind of I kind of love it, you know?

• 52:03Courtney Dauwalter?

  I think I have a good gauge of effort.

• 52:05Rich Roll?

  I'm sure you know. Yeah, it's like you're so you're so connected to yourself that you you don't need that because you already know intuitively where you're at, right? And that comes with experience. You've been doing this for a long time.

• 52:18Courtney Dauwalter?

  Pretty long.

• 52:18Rich Roll?

  Yeah. I mean, when did you you start running cross country in junior high, high school?

• 52:22Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah, cross country, um, starting in middle school and then cross country skiing through high school.

• 52:28Rich Roll?

  Yeah. And you were a state champion in cross country skiing?

• 52:34Rich Roll?

  Aren't you?

• 52:34Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah.

• 52:35Rich Roll?

  Why are you like laughing?

• 52:39Rich Roll?

  Why is that so funny?

• 52:40Courtney Dauwalter?

  It's not. I'm just awkward.

• 52:43Rich Roll?

  You're not awkward. Relax. We're just having fun here. It's all good. It's all good. Um, it seems like your parents are really supportive and cool.

• 52:53Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah, they're the best. They're amazing.

• 52:55Rich Roll?

  I was watching the the video that Solomon made around the Western States with your parents there. They were so cute.

• 53:02Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah.

• 53:03Rich Roll?

  Being interviewed.

• 53:03Courtney Dauwalter?

  They were they were so fired up to get to see this race where it's like kind of there's so many crowds and so much excitement around it. So I was really lucky they could come out for it. Ever since I started doing these ultras, they've been. Full on supportive and like the first hundred mile race that I ended up finishing. So my second one I had signed up for, it was just my dad and brother and Kevin as my crew. None of us knew what we were doing and we're like, you know, up in the woods of Minnesota at the Superior 100, like figuring out what these aid stations are and what

• 53:43Courtney Dauwalter?

  the trail looks like and how to even like go about getting to a finish line.

• 53:49Rich Roll?

  Right. Yeah, I think there's this misconception that you like won your first race and it's just been podiums ever since, but you started in what like 2012 running ultras? And it was a couple of years of you growing and learning before you hit your stride and started winning.

• 54:06Courtney Dauwalter?

  For sure. Yeah. It took a lot of races to start to put the pieces together.

• 54:12Rich Roll?

  Uh huh. Did you know with that first one then though that like, oh, this is going to be my thing?

• 54:18Courtney Dauwalter?

  No, I think, um, so I just stumbled upon the ultra running world. I had no idea they existed. And there was a 50K at a local park. So I signed up for that and was intrigued by it, but I wasn't like hooked on the sport right away. And then I did a 50 mile race a little bit later that year and that got me hooked all the way. And then I just wanted to know what else was out there and what could I try?

• 54:44Rich Roll?

  What was the decision to sign up for the first race though? Why were you interested to begin with?

• 54:49Courtney Dauwalter?

  Um, so I did a road marathon and surprised myself by finishing it. Like I didn't think I'd actually get to the finish line of 26.2 miles. I thought my legs would shatter. I thought I would die on the side of this road. Um, and when I finished it, it kind of like flipped a switch for me of just wondering if that sounded too hard, but I did it, what else is there that sounds too hard that I could try?

• 55:18Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 55:19Courtney Dauwalter?

  So I tried like a Tough Mudder then, and then stumbled upon like these races that were just a smidge longer than a road marathon, a 50K, what, five miles more. I was like, I gotta try and see if the extra five miles kills me. And then it didn't.

• 55:39Rich Roll?

  It didn't. Well, if that didn't kill me.

• 55:42Courtney Dauwalter?

  Exactly. Yeah. So then it was a real quick progression. I did the 50 mile race, got hooked and didn't die. And then instantly, I wanted to try 100 miles.

• 55:53Rich Roll?

  Uh huh. It really fits your disposition, though, because as somebody who is all about intuitive feel, to be a marathon runner is really kind of a data-driven thing. Like, oh, here are the workouts you need to do, and here's how you have to hit your splits. But trail running is all about the terrain dictating everything. So all of that goes out the window.

• 56:15Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah.

• 56:15Rich Roll?

  And it's just about, like, being present in the experience and tackling things as they're thrown at you.

• 56:20Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah, for sure.

• 56:21Rich Roll?

  And it's not about anyone else, other than you and you.

• 56:23Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah. I think in that 50K, I was so surprised that everyone was chatting out on this trail, you know, winding through the woods. No one's watches were beeping splits. And then at aid stations, we got to just fill our pockets with jelly beans. I was like, I'm in.

• 56:40Rich Roll?

  We're gonna talk about your garbage patch kids diet in a minute.

• 56:48Courtney Dauwalter?

  I feel like we have a lot in common there.

• 56:50Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Oh, my goodness. You're young. There's more to learn. It is interesting, as somebody who's trying to achieve peak performance in all these areas, that your approach is to not focus on all these things where people are trying to get that incremental advantage, whether it's through some scientific approach to training or a dietary approach. Like, you're just like, no, not doing that. I eat whatever. Nachos, cheeseburgers, french fries.

• 57:26Courtney Dauwalter?

  So good.

• 57:26Rich Roll?

  Candy. Right? Has that evolved at all?

• 57:30Courtney Dauwalter?

  No.

• 57:31Rich Roll?

  No.

• 57:32Courtney Dauwalter?

  No, and I realize like that is definitely an area where maybe if I did something differently, maybe it would help, but then like weighing that against how much joy I get out of just living life like this.

• 57:47Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 57:48Courtney Dauwalter?

  I just, I love nachos too much.

• 57:50Rich Roll?

  I don't blame you. I'm not, I'm like, I got nothing but love.

• 57:54Courtney Dauwalter?

  Okay.

• 57:54Rich Roll?

  For that, you know. I think the enjoyment piece is really important because if you're not enjoying yourself, then you're putting a shelf life on your career. And if it becomes too rigorous or restricted, whether it's through training or diet or any other, you know, like sleeping in an altitude tent, like all these, you know, like you don't even use normatech boots, right?

• 58:17Courtney Dauwalter?

  No, normatech. No.

• 58:18Rich Roll?

  Yeah, you're talking about Rogan. He couldn't remember what they were called. But like, that's something that is like de rigueur with endurance athletes. And you were like, I don't even know what that is.

• 58:28Rich Roll?

  That's nuts. But the good thing is if you ever get interested in those things, then there's a whole world of opportunity and possibility ahead of you.

• 58:37Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah.

• 58:38Rich Roll?

  To explore all that stuff.

• 58:39Courtney Dauwalter?

  I'll just keep them in my back pocket.

• 58:41Rich Roll?

  Right. Yeah, pull it out when you need it. But so far, so good, right?

• 58:48Rich Roll?

  Let's talk about the Barclay marathons.

• 58:51Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah, let's.

• 58:52Rich Roll?

  I'm fascinated by this race and the people involved and what this is all about. So explain what it is for people who've never heard of it.

• 59:04Courtney Dauwalter?

  So it's a race in the mountains of Tennessee, outside of a prison. And I believe the history came about because a prisoner escaped this prison. And when he was found 60 hours later, he had only made it like five miles or something from the prison. And so Lazarus Lake is the race director. And I guess him and his buddies were just jawboning about how they would make it farther and they should then make this race out there. So it's. It's not marked like a normal ultra marathon is and it's not on actual trails. It's just bushwhacking through these mountains.

• 59:45Courtney Dauwalter?

  And you have to complete five 20-ish mile loops in order to be a finisher of the Barclay Marathon.

• 59:54Rich Roll?

  You say 20-ish because they say it's 20, but it's not 20.

• 59:58Courtney Dauwalter?

  It's not 20, but maybe 25 or 26 mile loops, not positive. And the way you prove that you made it around the loop correctly is he's hidden books out in the woods and you have to get to the book and then you rip out your bib number to prove you were at that book and then turn them in when you finish your loop.

• 1:00:19Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:00:20Courtney Dauwalter?

  And it's uncrewed, there's no aid stations. The only time you can get more things is when you're back at the camp between loops. And then there's a few stops out on the course where he's put some jugs of water.

• 1:00:34Rich Roll?

  Uh huh. And over, is it five loops total?

• 1:00:37Courtney Dauwalter?

  Five loops total.

• 1:00:38Rich Roll?

  To complete it? And there's something like 60,000 feet of elevation gain, right?

• 1:00:42Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah, easily, I bet.

• 1:00:44Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 1:00:45Courtney Dauwalter?

  I don't know, it's a lot.

• 1:00:46Rich Roll?

  So you're out there, it's not marked, you don't really know where you're going. I mean, people are getting lost all the time, right?

• 1:00:52Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:00:53Rich Roll?

  The weather's terrible.

• 1:00:55Courtney Dauwalter?

  The weather is horrendous and you're navigating just with a compass and the day before the race, he puts out his map that you copy onto your own map of like the line you're supposed to take. It's not a orienteering race, it's not like you can just go any direction through these woods to get to the books, you're supposed to follow his line.

• 1:01:15Rich Roll?

  Hmm. And isn't it a thing where he doesn't tell you when it's gonna start?

• 1:01:20Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah. Yeah, he gives you a one hour warning, so it can be anywhere in this like, I don't know, 12 hour window of time or something, 20 hour window of time and he'll give you the one hour warning.

• 1:01:33Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 1:01:34Courtney Dauwalter?

  And this year, I was lucky enough to get to try the race and he gave that warning at like 2:00 AM or something.

• 1:01:42Rich Roll?

  Right, 3:00 AM start.

• 1:01:43Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:44Rich Roll?

  He lights the cigarette, which is the thing he does. I mean, he's a character, this guy.

• 1:01:49Courtney Dauwalter?

  He's a character.

• 1:01:50Rich Roll?

  What is the story with this dude? Controversial, too.

• 1:01:54Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:56Courtney Dauwalter?

  He's a character, but he's created all these events where like he just wants to help people see what's possible for them. So like Barclay is that, you know, people sign up for it knowing they're not going to finish probably. I think in total, there's been 15 finishers ever of the Barclay and then he's created Big's Backyard where it's like, you know, run till you can't, basically, so.

• 1:02:21Rich Roll?

  15 people total finish. I thought it was a few more than that. I don't know. But no woman has done the whole, has completed the whole thing. Is that correct?

• 1:02:30Courtney Dauwalter?

  Correct, yeah.

• 1:02:31Rich Roll?

  And when you did it, you did, you completed the first loop within the time limit and then on the second loop, uh, came in like, like 12 minutes?

• 1:02:42Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:42Rich Roll?

  Too late?

• 1:02:43Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yep, we were 12 minutes over the cutoff, so we weren't allowed to then leave on our third loop.

• 1:02:48Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 1:02:49Courtney Dauwalter?

  So there's.

• 1:02:49Rich Roll?

  Did anybody finish?

• 1:02:50Courtney Dauwalter?

  No. Uh, two people made it the fun run, which is three loops. So they, uh, I think it's like 40 hours you have to get three loops done in, in order to count for a fun run.

• 1:03:02Rich Roll?

  Right, but it doesn't actually count as.

• 1:03:04Courtney Dauwalter?

  Right, yeah.

• 1:03:05Rich Roll?

  So this is like the only race where almost, where basically nobody finishes like every single year.

• 1:03:11Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:12Rich Roll?

  How long has it been going on?

• 1:03:14Courtney Dauwalter?

  Uh, a long time.

• 1:03:16Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:18Courtney Dauwalter?

  I'm not sure. We can look that up.

• 1:03:20Rich Roll?

  I know. Are you gonna go back to that? You gotta crack that.

• 1:03:24Courtney Dauwalter?

  I'm really intrigued by it. Like just getting my feet wet and getting to actually see what it's all about was really cool. Um, I mean, it's just as hard as, as everyone says, like, it's just straight up and down these mountainsides. Um, and then finding the books is like this silly game where they're like hidden in the most obscure places. Like, it's like in a hole, under a rock, on this log, you know, like. It's hard to find them.

• 1:03:53Rich Roll?

  I can't imagine like being that tired and it's like dark out too, right?

• 1:03:57Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:58Rich Roll?

  So you have this map and you're like, the book's supposed to be here and you can't find it?

• 1:04:01Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah. Luckily, I was with veterans and so they had a better gauge on like the lay of the land and just having been there before, like there's some spots that he repeats the book being hidden there. So they knew like, oh, we lift up this one rock and you know, then it's wherever. But like, the whole first half of the first loop this year was in the dark and then it was in the fog. And so everyone going to the race had told me, pay attention on that first loop, you know, figure out your landmarks so that when you do it again on the second loop, you start to piece it together and you can like see the land in your head and you know where you're going, kind of. And that whole first half of the

• 1:04:46Courtney Dauwalter?

  first loop, I'm like, I couldn't see like 10 feet out. I'm like, guys, I'm really trying to see the landmarks.

• 1:04:53Rich Roll?

  Oh my god. So, all right, a couple of questions. First of all, the map that you have, is that on a like an iPhone with a GPS or is that on a piece of paper?

• 1:05:02Courtney Dauwalter?

  No technology, so.

• 1:05:03Rich Roll?

  Right. So you can't see your dot on the thing to make sure that you're on course?

• 1:05:08Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah. No phones, no GPS watches. He issues you.

• 1:05:13Rich Roll?

  It is an orienteering race then. You said it's not, but it kind of is.

• 1:05:16Courtney Dauwalter?

  Kind of, except in orienteering, can't they go however to get to the point?

• 1:05:20Rich Roll?

  Oh, I don't know.

• 1:05:21Courtney Dauwalter?

  Because this is like a very specific path to get to the book that you're supposed to follow. So maybe it's a little bit orienteering, but not like a free for all, like.

• 1:05:31Rich Roll?

  Does he change it up? Like, could you go at other parts of the year and train on the course so you get familiar with all the rock formations and everything?

• 1:05:39Courtney Dauwalter?

  You can't train off trail in the park. And so like the park makes a special exception for this race every year to happen off trail. But otherwise during the year, you have to stay on just their normal park trails.

• 1:05:52Rich Roll?

  Right, right.

• 1:05:53Courtney Dauwalter?

  But this year, the watch he gave us was a like a pocket watch, like clicks open with the lid, you know?

• 1:06:03Courtney Dauwalter?

  You know, it was so useless.

• 1:06:05Rich Roll?

  Right. And isn't like the entry fee is like a dollar sixty or something? And then there's always some random thing also, like a license plate?

• 1:06:14Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yep, license plate. If you're new to the race, you have to bring a license plate that year. And then if you've done the race before, there's like a different thing you bring him. I think he's done like socks and cigarettes and whatever else.

• 1:06:30Rich Roll?

  Oh, my God.

• 1:06:31Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah. It's pretty cool, though. I mean, it was just like, it was silly. The weather was so bad that a few times I was with a small group. We're just going up and down these hillsides and everyone's just slipping everywhere. There's mud down the whole hillside. And so like zooming out and watching it, I'm like, this is like a comedy movie. Like, people are just slipping and falling and like tumbling and then back on their feet and running. Like, it was the most normal thing to be doing.

• 1:07:00Rich Roll?

  Right, right, right. Well, I'm wondering whether there's something so beautiful and pure about that, but also balancing that against, you know, risk and liability as this sport is continuing to grow. Like, it's very much in its, you know, juvenile years in terms of, you know, what we're, what we're learning about what's physically and mentally possible, but also in terms of onboarding all of these enthusiastic runners who are looking to push their limits. And we just saw what happened in China recently where 21 people died. And when, you know, it's fun to talk, oh, we're sliding around in mud. But like, there's real life ramifications to this where people can get seriously hurt.

• 1:07:45Rich Roll?

  We saw that. And it's going to be interesting to see how that impacts race directors and races going forward in the United States. Like, it's a cautionary tale. Like, this is very real. And people are pushing themselves to places that not everybody's ready to go.

• 1:07:59Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:59Rich Roll?

  And they can be inspired by you, but if they're not somebody who's been doing this for a long time, people can get into very real trouble pretty quickly.

• 1:08:07Courtney Dauwalter?

  For sure. Yeah. And like, just because it's this marked course doesn't give you this bubble of safety around it. Like, it's still mountains and there's still...

• 1:08:16Rich Roll?

  Yeah, and you're in these remote places. There's no hospitals nearby. And most of these races remain very grassroots. You know, there's just a couple of people there. There's not a lot of infrastructure. And that's what makes it great and cool and fun and cultivates this amazing community and rapport that you have with everybody. But on some level, there is a, you know, that event, you know, makes me think like, well, maybe it's time to mature a little bit.

• 1:08:48Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah. Or, yeah, I don't know, like, the application process needs more, you know, information from each runner to see...

• 1:08:56Rich Roll?

  Stronger waivers. It's your fault.

• 1:09:00Courtney Dauwalter?

  But also, like, can you make smart choices out there? Like, what's your wilderness training or experience and that kind of thing? I don't know. I don't know what the solution is, but it's scary how real it became when something like that race happens.

• 1:09:18Rich Roll?

  And at the same time, there's money coming into the sport. We just saw Ironman partnering with UTMB, which is another controversial thing. Like, how do you feel about that?

• 1:09:28Courtney Dauwalter?

  I am not sure. I don't know.

• 1:09:32Rich Roll?

  I guess we don't know yet, right? You'll probably learn more when you go to the race this year. What aspects of the race are going to be impacted by it positively or negatively?

• 1:09:42Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah. We'll see.

• 1:09:44Rich Roll?

  Yeah. You're going to be very politic here.

• 1:09:49Rich Roll?

  I mean, it's hard to know right now. I think that the fear is that it will corrupt the integrity of it. On the positive side, there's an infusion of money that could make the sport better and, you know, create opportunities for more runners and the like. But I think protecting, you know, the integrity and the legacy and what makes ultra-running and that community special is important. And so I think people are afraid that that partnership could threaten that.

• 1:10:21Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah, and I mean, I'm not even trying to stay neutral. I feel like I've just read a lot of things where it's like guessing what might happen.

• 1:10:30Rich Roll?

  All these hot takes, but we don't know yet.

• 1:10:32Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:32Rich Roll?

  We don't know. We'll see soon enough, right?

• 1:10:35Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:44Rich Roll?

  Of the two races that you're preparing for right now, let's talk about the differences between something like Hard Rock and UTMB, because they're very different.

• 1:10:54Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah, the courses will be kind of similar. I mean, they're both mountain terrain, lots of climbing. But just the races in general are all the way different. Hard Rock has 150 people in the race. UTMB has thousands and thousands.

• 1:11:14Rich Roll?

  It's crazy, the crowds that show up for that.

• 1:11:17Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah. I mean, I've only been over there once, but it was insane. I've never experienced anything like that. But I'm excited to have both of them. I think it's so cool when you roll into an aid station that's, you know, just a folding table out in the middle of nowhere.

• 1:11:33Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:34Courtney Dauwalter?

  With some volunteers that camped there the night before to get there. I think that's just as special as like rolling through a, you know, hyped up town with, you know, crazy tents and NASCAR style crewing. So it'll be fun to have these races that are both, you know, beautiful mountain 100-mile races, but then different in so many other ways.

• 1:12:00Rich Roll?

  And what does the training look like in between the two? Are you just trying to like recover as much as possible so you can be fresh?

• 1:12:07Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah, I think that'll be really play it by ear and see what my body needs and how my brain is feeling. Maybe some weeks of training squeezed in there, but maybe it'll just be like recovering and then trying to show up as fresh as possible at UTMB.

• 1:12:25Rich Roll?

  Well, I guess you'll just wake up in the morning and figure it out, right?

• 1:12:28Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah, after coffee.

• 1:12:33Rich Roll?

  It's cool. I can't wait to see what you're gonna do. Do you feel like you shoulder a little bit more pressure and a sense of expectations now because of your accomplishments? Does it change how you approach these races?

• 1:12:50Courtney Dauwalter?

  For me, it doesn't, no. I mean, I expect from myself to give it everything I have. And so what someone else is expecting from me is not part of the equation.

• 1:13:03Rich Roll?

  That's pretty healthy.

• 1:13:04Courtney Dauwalter?

  I'll do my very best, no matter what.

• 1:13:06Rich Roll?

  That's a healthy mental approach. I mean, we're, I don't know if you saw this this past weekend with Naomi Osaka refusing to do press.

• 1:13:15Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah, I just saw that.

• 1:13:16Rich Roll?

  For her mental health, which made the internet explode.

• 1:13:19Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:19Rich Roll?

  But I thought it was really cool that she's like, listen, you know, I'm not a product and I need to protect myself. And why should I expose myself to all of these, you know, reporters who say negative things and that affects my ability to perform? And I think it's created a really interesting conversation about the responsibility of the media and the empowerment of the athlete to like say no to this stuff. Like, just because you're competing at this level doesn't mean that you owe anybody anything.

• 1:13:52Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah, super interesting. She dropped out of the tournament now, I think.

• 1:13:56Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I think so, yeah.

• 1:13:58Courtney Dauwalter?

  How old is she, do you know?

• 1:14:00Rich Roll?

  I don't know, I should know. She's young, though.

• 1:14:02Courtney Dauwalter?

  Pretty young.

• 1:14:02Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. But that was a bold, that was a courageous thing to do, I think. You know? And there were a lot of, the people on the other side saying, this is your job.

• 1:14:12Courtney Dauwalter?

  Right.

• 1:14:13Rich Roll?

  This goes with the territory, you should know this. And on some level, yes, you make yourself available to the press, but doesn't that need to be reasonable and within certain parameters? And can't we respect the sovereignty of the athlete when they say enough is enough?

• 1:14:29Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah. Probably all the social media changes the dynamics of sports.

• 1:14:36Rich Roll?

  What is your approach to social media? Like, do you feel like you need to be sharing stuff? And you've got sponsors and people that, you know, want you to be kind of out there in that way?

• 1:14:49Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah, I mean, I'm sort of, I feel sort of new to it still. But I just, it's a cool way to connect with people is how I view it. And so like, I am having fun sharing my story using it because maybe it can connect with someone who, maybe it helps them try something hard, you know? I don't know. And I, I mean, my sponsors are fantastic, so I don't have pressure from them to like, do a certain thing or...

• 1:15:22Rich Roll?

  Solomon is your main sponsor.

• 1:15:24Courtney Dauwalter?

  That's correct.

• 1:15:24Rich Roll?

  Yeah. You know, I just joined the Solomon team.

• 1:15:27Courtney Dauwalter?

  I'm so excited.

• 1:15:28Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:29Courtney Dauwalter?

  Now we gotta go running.

• 1:15:30Rich Roll?

  I think we're gonna announce it tomorrow. I'm, I'm super excited about it. No, I, it's hilarious, like, oh, joining the Solomon family. I'm like, with people like Courtney? Like, I don't, like, I'm way in the back, like, I can't even believe that I'm here, but I'm really excited about it. And I love all the people that I've met and gotten to spend a little bit of time with.

• 1:15:50Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:51Rich Roll?

  And everything is just so dialed in and super pro, from the gear to just the integrity. And it's been really, it's like a dream come true for me.

• 1:16:00Courtney Dauwalter?

  Oh, that's so cool.

• 1:16:01Rich Roll?

  So Erin was supposed, Erin and Juris were supposed to come out and do the Iron Cowboy thing with me the other day, but they're, they're young and wasn't feeling well, so they couldn't do it. But I was hoping to see them on Saturday.

• 1:16:12Courtney Dauwalter?

  They're so great.

• 1:16:13Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:14Courtney Dauwalter?

  I'm so pumped you're on the team.

• 1:16:15Rich Roll?

  I know. I should, I should figure out some kind of, I feel like I have, I really have to live up to this in a way.

• 1:16:21Courtney Dauwalter?

  No.

• 1:16:24Rich Roll?

  I gotta find some kind of challenge for myself or whatever to legitimize the relationship.

• 1:16:30Courtney Dauwalter?

  What would it be?

• 1:16:31Rich Roll?

  I'm really proud, I'm really proud.

• 1:16:32Courtney Dauwalter?

  Would you wanna do a backyard race?

• 1:16:34Rich Roll?

  Maybe. I have to put in quite a bit of work between now, maybe in a year. I have to get ready. I gotta heal my back up.

• 1:16:41Courtney Dauwalter?

  If you had to choose between a backyard or 200?

• 1:16:45Rich Roll?

  I think I can wrap my head around a backyard.

• 1:16:47Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:47Rich Roll?

  Yeah. That's what's cool about it, is that it can be as, as hard as your body is able to go, right? And those little breaks become super significant.

• 1:16:57Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:57Rich Roll?

  You know?

• 1:16:59Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:59Rich Roll?

  And mentally, it's not as intimidating.

• 1:17:02Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah. It is a cool format. I mean... The first year I was there, I think there was a person who was like, "I'm just gonna try to run my first marathon ever today." And they wanted to stay in to get their 26 miles. And then they were gonna feel satisfied. And they ended up doing, I think, 100K, 62 miles. Because four miles at a time, they just kept thinking like, "Oh, I can do one more. I can do one more."

• 1:17:30Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think the Goggins Challenge, where he did the four by four by 48 was a similar thing. Because it feels bite-sized and you don't realize that it's actually hard when you think about it until you're actually doing it and you're in the middle of the night.

• 1:17:47Courtney Dauwalter?

  Right.

• 1:17:47Rich Roll?

  And it encourages people to try something that maybe they would have been too intimidated to do if it was signing up for like a really long race.

• 1:17:55Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 1:17:57Rich Roll?

  Yeah. I wanna, I wanna think of something like, like, create my own thing, though, too. Like, I think there's something cool about that. And, and, you know, if there was a silver lining to the, to the pandemic with respect to ultras, it was the like backyard, the backyard challenge thing? That was, was Mike Wardian the one who created that? He's the one who went the furthest.

• 1:18:22Courtney Dauwalter?

  To do the virtual backyard?

• 1:18:23Rich Roll?

  Yeah, the virtual thing.

• 1:18:24Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yep, he went the furthest.

• 1:18:26Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:26Courtney Dauwalter?

  It was Dave Proctor and his team in Canada, who like put together the event.

• 1:18:32Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Yeah, those things are cool.

• 1:18:34Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:36Rich Roll?

  To be able to create community when we couldn't be together.

• 1:18:38Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah. Oh, it was so fun.

• 1:18:40Rich Roll?

  I know.

• 1:18:41Courtney Dauwalter?

  It felt like we were all hanging out together, even though I was just staring at this little screen.

• 1:18:45Rich Roll?

  I know, right? I know. Well, it must be nice to feel like you can start traveling now and the world is opening up a little bit and all that.

• 1:18:54Courtney Dauwalter?

  It feels awesome. Seeing people, doing things. I, I think, though, like, I, I kind of liked last year and, um,

• 1:19:05Courtney Dauwalter?

  Finding appreciation in these trails that were right out my door all the time that I'd, you know, gotten to, I'd taken them for granted, basically, and then being stuck at home all last spring and into the summer, it was like, oh, there's a lot of cool linkups you can actually make if you're just looking for it.

• 1:19:23Rich Roll?

  Right. It encouraged you to explore a little bit more.

• 1:19:25Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah. And I saw way more families out on the trails and just getting outside more. So I think it could have some cool things come from it, even though it was definitely not great.

• 1:19:36Rich Roll?

  Amelia Boone lives in Golden also, doesn't she? Do you ever go running with her?

• 1:19:41Courtney Dauwalter?

  No, I, I saw her during a virtual run I was doing, and we crossed paths on the trails, but otherwise, we haven't run together.

• 1:19:51Rich Roll?

  Really? Didn't you, but one of the, because the, the backyard ultra, you do it in teams, right? That like the, the US has their team and there was like, wasn't Amelia part of one of your teams one of the years?

• 1:20:04Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah, so we, that was in person at, in Tennessee in the fall.

• 1:20:08Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:08Courtney Dauwalter?

  We were able to share a ton of miles there, but never in Golden.

• 1:20:13Rich Roll?

  Uh huh. That's so, that's funny.

• 1:20:15Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:16Rich Roll?

  I feel like I had this idea like, oh, you guys are like hanging out and running and having coffee and doing stuff like that all the time. No.

• 1:20:25Courtney Dauwalter?

  No, not recently.

• 1:20:26Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:27Courtney Dauwalter?

  We should.

• 1:20:27Rich Roll?

  What is the, the ultra running community of the future that you would like to see? Like, where is all this heading? And like, you know, explain to somebody who's listening or watching, who's unfamiliar with this world, like, what's great about it and why maybe they should think of stepping into it?

• 1:20:49Courtney Dauwalter?

  Oh, man, so many reasons. Just exploring with your feet, like the places you end up with. Just your body carrying you there is pretty cool. It feels special to be in the middle of nowhere and to have gotten yourself there on purpose. I think it's the most welcoming community. The first 50 mile race I did, one of the things that hooked me was how awesome the people around me were. And I mean, we were in hail and sleet and just awful weather. And people were wearing garbage bags as their raincoats because it kept them a little bit warmer.

• 1:21:29Courtney Dauwalter?

  And all signs pointed to, like, we should be hating life right now, but people were just making the best of it. They're hooping and hollering, you know, splashing through puddles, finding like all the joy they could in this miserable situation. And they're also the most helpful because in that same race, I face planted in a mud puddle and a person 15 yards ahead ran back, offered their hand and pulled me out of this puddle to keep running together. Like, where does that happen?

• 1:22:03Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:04Courtney Dauwalter?

  You went out of your way to help me. It's not just that I was conveniently in your way. Like, they turned around and came back for me.

• 1:22:11Rich Roll?

  That is something really unique about the community, I think.

• 1:22:15Courtney Dauwalter?

  I find that in every race. I mean, everyone's ready to help. If you're on the side of the trail having trouble, like, everyone who goes by is going to ask, "What can I do? How can I help you to get back on track?"

• 1:22:28Rich Roll?

  And you might even hallucinate and you could go blind.

• 1:22:32Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah. Also perks.

• 1:22:36Rich Roll?

  Can we talk about the hallucinations?

• 1:22:38Courtney Dauwalter?

  Have you ever hallucinated?

• 1:22:39Rich Roll?

  No, uh-uh.

• 1:22:40Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah, it's fun. You make some good friends.

• 1:22:43Rich Roll?

  Yeah. I like your... For me, I mean, you hear lots of stories of ultra runners having hallucinations. But what I love about your hallucinations is your relationship to them. Like, they're like your friends or something. Like, you're like, "Oh, this is awesome." There's Mickey Mouse over there doing whatever. Like, what's going on?

• 1:23:04Courtney Dauwalter?

  Mickey Mouse was throwing out T-shirts to the crowd and he did not throw me one.

• 1:23:11Rich Roll?

  Do you know they're not real when they're happening? So there's a detachment? Or are you thinking this is really real and it's still cool?

• 1:23:18Courtney Dauwalter?

  For the most part, now I can tell they're not real. There are some instances where I have to like take, you know, double or triple takes at something because I can't believe, you know, I'm seeing these people dancing right there and like, what are they doing? But usually I can recognize it's not real and it means that I'm doing something really cool because these friends don't just come out anytime.

• 1:23:44Rich Roll?

  Right. It's special.

• 1:23:46Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:46Rich Roll?

  Here they come.

• 1:23:47Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:47Rich Roll?

  Do you know it's always gonna happen at hour whatever?

• 1:23:50Courtney Dauwalter?

  It's not a certain hour, but it's definitely over 24 hours of effort. And then like nighttime for sure brings out more friends. So like UTMB starts in the evening and so the night is when you're a little bit fresher. And so I made no friends at UTMB because...

• 1:24:11Rich Roll?

  You're like, where are my friends?

• 1:24:13Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:15Courtney Dauwalter?

  Even though that course would be hard enough and take long enough where I maybe I would've made them if the night had been at the end section.

• 1:24:22Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 1:24:25Rich Roll?

  I think you're a very healthy person.

• 1:24:27Courtney Dauwalter?

  What?

• 1:24:27Rich Roll?

  I'm no shrink, but you know, I think the sort of good natured aspect of your hallucinations speak to somebody who's, you know, a very grounded individual. Like if it was a lot of demons coming out at night and people trying to kill you and stuff like...

• 1:24:43Courtney Dauwalter?

  I know my friend...

• 1:24:44Rich Roll?

  I feel like you should write them all down and then you could give them, give that journal to, you know, a psychiatrist and say, tell me who I am.

• 1:24:51Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah. I don't know. I don't know if I want them to analyze it, but I had to, my friend Maggie, who does Big's Backyard and all sorts of adventures, she has really scary ones. Like she sees like heads on spears and clowns and stuff.

• 1:25:05Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:25:06Courtney Dauwalter?

  Like Maggie, you gotta watch happy movies the day before. Like she's watching It the night before a race.

• 1:25:13Rich Roll?

  Yeah, Hannibal.

• 1:25:14Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah. Like what do you think you're gonna see?

• 1:25:17Rich Roll?

  That's funny. What about the blindness, though? Explain that story for people that don't know it.

• 1:25:24Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah, I don't recommend it. But what happened was it was a hundred mile race. And about 12 miles from the finish, my vision was just getting really foggy on the edges. I thought it was my contact lenses. I thought it was my headlamp dying. Like, I couldn't figure out what was going on, but I for sure noticed I was seeing less and less. And by 10 miles out from the finish line, it just had closed in all the way where it was pure white in my field of vision. Like, I waved my hand in front of my face and I couldn't see my hand. But there were 10 miles left, and so it was like problem solving, figuring out what solutions I had as options to keep moving forward.

• 1:26:08Courtney Dauwalter?

  I didn't ever feel like it was permanent because it had crept in like it did, and it didn't come from like falling and hitting my head. It had just like slowly happened over time. So I determined it was safe. And then if I just stared down at my toes, I could see this tiny arc of the trail in front of them to keep moving as quickly as possible.

• 1:26:32Rich Roll?

  You could see enough to, you know, gauge your foot placement?

• 1:26:36Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yes, I could see that I was on the trail still. And I knew that section of trail. I knew there weren't like spurs off of it where I would end up lost, you know, or I knew it didn't cliff out anywhere. So I was like, if I can just stay on this single track, it'll be okay.

• 1:26:52Rich Roll?

  Right, you're not gonna fall off a cliff.

• 1:26:53Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah, yeah. I mean, some areas, if that happened, I would sit like if it's an area where it does cliff out, or if I'm unfamiliar with what it does, I would probably have to like make a different choice.

• 1:27:05Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:05Courtney Dauwalter?

  Because I'm not trying to go off a cliff anywhere.

• 1:27:08Rich Roll?

  I hope not.

• 1:27:09Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah. But then I made it to an aid station with about six miles left. And the volunteers were very kind and sent one of their aid station workers to run next to me. And she narrated the trail to me then. And so she was like, there's big rocks on your left, the trail is turning slightly to the right. And it just made it so much easier because I could like sort of then predict with my body where I was going next. When I was by myself, it was I was falling everywhere because if you can't see in front of your feet. I mean, I was landing on every rock and root and just tripping on everything.

• 1:27:51Rich Roll?

  I don't even know where to begin with this, so.

• 1:27:53Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah, I don't know what you should. Maybe we just leave that.

• 1:27:56Rich Roll?

  You're like, alright, moving on, next question. I mean, come on! First of all, you're wearing contacts for like, days on end, right? Probably not a smart idea.

• 1:28:08Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yes.

• 1:28:09Rich Roll?

  You probably stopped doing that after that, right?

• 1:28:11Courtney Dauwalter?

  No, because I can't see without them.

• 1:28:13Rich Roll?

  But you can get, like, I'm blind as a bat. You just get glasses.

• 1:28:17Courtney Dauwalter?

  Oh, I could do that.

• 1:28:18Rich Roll?

  Yeah, right.

• 1:28:19Courtney Dauwalter?

  I've heard Lasik makes it happen more often.

• 1:28:23Rich Roll?

  It's corneal edema is what's happening, right? So essentially, your body's so, you know, under so much stress that you're having this immune response, creating inflammation in your eyes that is crowding out your ability to see. Like, it's basically pressure on the optic nerve.

• 1:28:39Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah, and they, I mean, best diagnosis or reason, they said, is probably that. And it was dusty and smoky air and, like, rubbing my eyes maybe just aggravated them.

• 1:28:52Rich Roll?

  Allergic response.

• 1:28:53Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:54Rich Roll?

  But the frame of mind, when that happens, to not freak out and say, "I gotta stop, like, I can't see," you know? And you're like, "Oh, it's good, we'll just keep going, like, I think it's gonna be okay." "Oh, it was so great, I had a guide," like, that's not normal.

• 1:29:16Rich Roll?

  Right? You recognize that.

• 1:29:19Courtney Dauwalter?

  Um, yes, and I, like, I don't recommend people just do this. Like, maybe make the choice for you if it ever happens to your eyes. Like, figure out how you feel about all the factors, you know, but...

• 1:29:34Rich Roll?

  But when it happened, you didn't know what corneal edema was. Like, now if it happens again, you're like, "This has happened to me before," or "I read something about it." But when it was occurring in real time, most people would have just freaked out.

• 1:29:47Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah, I think, um, in general, how I try to stay is just without emotions in situations like that. So, like, what are the facts of this situation? And then what can I actually control about it?

• 1:30:02Rich Roll?

  How long before your eyesight returned?

• 1:30:05Courtney Dauwalter?

  It was probably, like, five or six hours after the finish.

• 1:30:09Rich Roll?

  That's a long time to be sitting there. Like at hour four, like is this gonna work out?

• 1:30:17Courtney Dauwalter?

  I was very happy when it came back. I went to the hospital, so I mean, they checked me out. They weren't worried about the eyes.

• 1:30:24Rich Roll?

  Okay, that's helpful.

• 1:30:26Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:26Rich Roll?

  So what do you do? Is there anything you do now to help prevent that? Like drops or anything like that?

• 1:30:31Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah, I do eye drops pretty much through every ultra now. I'll have them in my pack or I'll use them at aid stations. And then protective eyewear. So just trying to keep out as much dust as possible.

• 1:30:45Rich Roll?

  But still with the contacts?

• 1:30:46Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:47Rich Roll?

  Interesting.

• 1:30:48Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah. I don't know. I don't... Maybe I could try glasses.

• 1:30:53Rich Roll?

  Have you never worn glasses?

• 1:30:54Courtney Dauwalter?

  Not really.

• 1:30:54Rich Roll?

  Oh, I've never really worn contacts.

• 1:30:57Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:58Rich Roll?

  Maybe we can switch.

• 1:30:59Courtney Dauwalter?

  Just do a swap.

• 1:31:00Rich Roll?

  I'll start wearing contacts. I'll give you my glasses.

• 1:31:03Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah, perfect.

• 1:31:03Rich Roll?

  And we'll see how that works out. Maybe I'll get like really good at ultras and then your back will start hurting you.

• 1:31:13Courtney Dauwalter?

  Thank you. Sounds like a good trade.

• 1:31:17Rich Roll?

  We can wrap this up in a few minutes. But one thing I... We're starting to lose the thread. One thing I'm interested in is as somebody who's out there pushing the envelope in your sport, showing the rest of us what's possible and breaking all these boundaries and barriers, how does that affect your mental disposition and how you approach other facets of your life? Like, how does it spill over and how you think about possibilities and potential in areas that are outside of running?

• 1:31:56Courtney Dauwalter?

  I think it's possible in every area outside of running. I'm not like seeking it in any other area right now, but I think what it's shown me is that people are selling themselves short and setting their bars too low of what they could actually do if they went all in on something. You know, whatever they're psyched about to just see what happens if they invest a little more time and energy into it.

• 1:32:24Rich Roll?

  And what about for yourself?

• 1:32:26Courtney Dauwalter?

  For myself?

• 1:32:27Rich Roll?

  So you deflected a little bit there?

• 1:32:28Courtney Dauwalter?

  What?

• 1:32:29Rich Roll?

  Because I was asking you about you, too.

• 1:32:30Courtney Dauwalter?

  I never do that.

• 1:32:31Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I know.

• 1:32:35Courtney Dauwalter?

  Uh, like, am I pursuing, am I?

• 1:32:39Rich Roll?

  Well, right now, you're all in on running, right? This is 110% all your focus and all your time. But there are other interests, I'm sure, that you have. And you're married and you have a relationship. And I'm sure there's other goals that maybe you're thinking about for your life after running or in conjunction with your running. Talk a little bit about that and how you kind of see your life unfolding.

• 1:33:04Courtney Dauwalter?

  I don't know how I see it unfolding.

• 1:33:07Rich Roll?

  Because you're just, you're right where your feet are.

• 1:33:09Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah.

• 1:33:10Rich Roll?

  You'll wake up in the morning and decide.

• 1:33:12Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah. I am having, like, I love this chapter that it's in right now. And so just enjoying that fully and knowing, like, chapters don't go on forever. So this ride, you know, will end at some point. And what comes next, I'm not sure. But I hope whatever, you know, page it flips to next, I can be just as excited about finding out what's possible.

• 1:33:38Rich Roll?

  Right, but you don't have a sense of what that might look like.

• 1:33:40Courtney Dauwalter?

  I don't, no. Do you think I should?

• 1:33:44Rich Roll?

  Not necessarily. I think you should be you.

• 1:33:46Courtney Dauwalter?

  Okay.

• 1:33:47Rich Roll?

  You know, I think it's working out fine.

• 1:33:50Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah, I don't know.

• 1:33:51Rich Roll?

  Well, I, no, I think that's an interesting that you asked me that because people ask me that, you know, what do you, what's the next thing? Or where do you see yourself in five years? And I don't really approach my life that way. I really don't think about those things. Then I feel guilty because like, here's my five-year plan. Like, you know, should I have a five-year plan? I don't know.

• 1:34:10Courtney Dauwalter?

  Do you, so you don't have a five-year plan?

• 1:34:13Rich Roll?

  No.

• 1:34:14Courtney Dauwalter?

  You have a weekly plan?

• 1:34:16Rich Roll?

  I have a schedule of things that I'm doing, but everything that ends up on the calendar is a reflection of me. I mean, I'm in a very privileged place where I have the opportunity to seek out things that, that interest me and pursue my curiosity, whether that's in sport or with the podcast or other creative outlets. And not everybody has that, you know, kind of life. So I'm very grateful for that, but. You know, it's all about like, oh, this is cool. Let's see what this is about, rather than like, I'm working towards this thing.

• 1:34:48Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:48Rich Roll?

  And there's a destination and it's gonna look like that when I get there.

• 1:34:51Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:51Rich Roll?

  I don't function that way.

• 1:34:52Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah. That's cool. Me neither.

• 1:34:55Rich Roll?

  Yeah. I don't get that. Well, but at the same time, you do like, well, you say, these are the races I'm gonna do this year, and I'm working towards my best performance of them. So they're anchored. Those are like the anchors, and then your life kind of orients around that. But within that, there's so much opportunity to, you know, be flexible and intuitive about your approach.

• 1:35:16Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah, for sure.

• 1:35:17Rich Roll?

  Yeah. One of the things that you see in ultra running is a problem with longevity in careers. Like, you see athletes who come onto the scene, they crush it, they have a window of time, a couple of years where they're indestructible, they're just winning everything in sight, and then something happens and they can't quite match those performances anymore. Seen it mostly in men, time and time and time again. And I've often thought like, what is causing that? Or why is that? And I'm not sure anybody knows the answer to that, but obviously you're aware that this is the case.

• 1:35:55Rich Roll?

  So do you think at all about how you can protect the longevity of what you're trying to accomplish? Like, do you put any effort into that or thought?

• 1:36:10Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah, I wanna be doing this sport as long as possible. And, I mean, my schedule, my race schedule four years ago would have been an ultra every month, because I love it so much, and I just wanted to do this thing I love. And also, I felt good doing it, so why not sign up for more? But have wised a little bit over the years to ease back on asking my body to go to that place so many times a year. And also, I mean, I had an injury a few years ago that taught me to not neglect the small things, like core work, or stretching, foam rolling, like, things like that.

• 1:36:52Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:53Courtney Dauwalter?

  I now implement because it's this tiny change I can do.

• 1:36:58Courtney Dauwalter?

  To maybe keep me in the sport longer.

• 1:37:00Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm, mm hmm. Yeah, I think I remember when you were on Rogan, he asked you about stretching and you're like, I probably should, but I don't really. So there's a change, right? You're growing wiser.

• 1:37:13Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah, a little bit.

• 1:37:14Rich Roll?

  Yeah. But it's life's lumps that force you to make those adjustments.

• 1:37:19Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah, for sure.

• 1:37:21Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Well, soon the diet, we'll talk about that.

• 1:37:29Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah, we can talk about it.

• 1:37:30Rich Roll?

  We'll see. No, I'm not getting involved. Like, you're doing fine, you know? And are you still like, you don't know, no supplements or anything like that?

• 1:37:39Courtney Dauwalter?

  No, nothing.

• 1:37:39Rich Roll?

  Just candy bars?

• 1:37:40Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah, mostly jelly beans.

• 1:37:43Rich Roll?

  Jelly beans?

• 1:37:43Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah. The fruity candy is my favorite and it's getting vitamins in there somehow, so.

• 1:37:50Rich Roll?

  And then when you're out training, like with the hydration pack, what is it? It's Tailwind, like what is your go to?

• 1:37:58Courtney Dauwalter?

  Tailwind, Honey Stinger. And then if it's a race, I'll probably have some mashed potatoes in my pack. And then if it's a really long race, then it's like any other carbs. Pizza, burgers, pancakes, pierogies, really good.

• 1:38:17Rich Roll?

  McDonald's french fries.

• 1:38:19Courtney Dauwalter?

  So good, yeah.

• 1:38:21Rich Roll?

  The salt, right?

• 1:38:23Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah, yeah. Really, any form of potato tastes great during an ultra.

• 1:38:28Rich Roll?

  Yeah, they work well.

• 1:38:30Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah.

• 1:38:31Rich Roll?

  They're effective, for sure. Well, I'm excited to see these races unfold with you.

• 1:38:38Courtney Dauwalter?

  Thank you.

• 1:38:39Rich Roll?

  It's pretty cool. Which shoe are you gonna wear?

• 1:38:43Courtney Dauwalter?

  Probably the S-Lab Ultra 3. Have you tried it?

• 1:38:46Rich Roll?

  I haven't tried that one yet. I've been running in the Ultra Glide, the new shoe that's about to come out.

• 1:38:51Courtney Dauwalter?

  So good.

• 1:38:52Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's great, right?

• 1:38:53Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah.

• 1:38:54Rich Roll?

  Enjoying that. I like the scents very much, too. Those are what I'm wearing right now, I think.

• 1:39:00Courtney Dauwalter?

  The scents ride.

• 1:39:00Rich Roll?

  Yeah, they're great.

• 1:39:03Rich Roll?

  I need, I gotta try those S labs, though. I haven't, I haven't run in those.

• 1:39:07Courtney Dauwalter?

  I'm so happy you're on the team.

• 1:39:08Rich Roll?

  Hmm, thank you.

• 1:39:09Courtney Dauwalter?

  That's exciting.

• 1:39:10Rich Roll?

  I'm very, I'm very proud. I feel unworthy, so I want to live up to it.

• 1:39:14Courtney Dauwalter?

  You're very worthy.

• 1:39:15Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I'm, you know, I was nervous and awkward and scared myself to talk to you because I have so much respect for everything that you do and you're such a joy and a pleasure to speak to and I wish you only the best.

• 1:39:29Courtney Dauwalter?

  Well, thank you.

• 1:39:29Rich Roll?

  Yeah, and I look forward to spending a little bit more time with you and getting to know you and being a cheerleader for your success.

• 1:39:38Courtney Dauwalter?

  Thank you. Let's, let's run some trails today.

• 1:39:41Rich Roll?

  I would love to do that. My, my guys here, I got a lot of work to do. I don't know if I can talk, talk, talk my way out of the office, but I'll see what I can do.

• 1:39:50Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah, they won't know.

• 1:39:52Rich Roll?

  Cool. So if people want to connect with you, what's the best way for them to find you on the internet? Basically, if you type in her name in Google, there's plenty. Yeah. On Instagram, maybe?

• 1:40:03Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah, at, on Instagram, at Courtney Dauwalter.

• 1:40:06Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm, awesome.

• 1:40:07Courtney Dauwalter?

  It'd be great.

• 1:40:08Rich Roll?

  All right, well, come back after these races and, and tell me about it.

• 1:40:12Courtney Dauwalter?

  Yeah, I would love that.

• 1:40:13Rich Roll?

  Cool. Peace.

• 1:40:15Courtney Dauwalter?

  And jelly beans.

• 1:40:30Rich Roll?

  Thanks for listening, everybody. For links and resources related to everything discussed today, visit the show notes on the episode page at richroll.com. If you'd like to support the podcast, the easiest and most impactful thing you can do is to subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, and on YouTube. Sharing the show or your favorite episode with friends or on social media is of course always appreciated. And finally, for podcast updates, special offers on books, the meal planner, and other subjects, subscribe to our newsletter, which you can find on the footer of any page on richroll.com. Today's show was produced and engineered by Jason Camiolo. The video edition of the podcast was created by Blake Curtis.

• 1:41:13Rich Roll?

  Portraits by Ally Rogers and Davy Greenberg. Graphic elements courtesy of Jessica Miranda. Copyrighting by Georgia Whaley. And our theme music was created by Tyler Pyatt, Trapper Pyatt, and Harry Mathis. You can find me at richroll.com or on Instagram and Twitter at Rich Roll. I appreciate the love. I love the support. I don't take your attention for granted. Thank you for listening. See you back here soon. Peace. Plants. Namaste.