REVISITING: Krampus

Throughout history, Krampus has been seen as the dark and sinister counterpart to old Saint Nicholas. This horned, hoofed, half-human, half-goat creature is known for taking charge of the naughty list and punishing those that don’t behave. But is Krampus one of a kind? For years, legends of a similar Goatman have popped up all over the world, from South America to New Zealand, leading many to wonder—does this Christmas legend have roots in the supernatural… And might he exist after all?

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:04Rasha Pecoraro?

  Happy Holidays are so supernatural, ohana. We hope you're getting some time to unwind with your friends, family, and loved ones. But, above all else, we hope you're keeping it just a little bit creepy.

• 0:19Yvette Gentile?

  As our gift to you, we thought we'd revisit one of our favorite spine-tingling holiday episodes with a legend that seems to be getting more and more popular with each passing year: the story of Krampus. But to be totally honest with you guys, Krampus was pretty new to me before covering it on our show. But, since then, every year in San Francisco, we have SantaCon, and I have to tell you, in the march of all these people, I recognized so many Krampus people.

• 0:56Yvette Gentile?

  And I finally was like, "Oh, okay, now I understand why they're dressed like this."

• 1:04Rasha Pecoraro?

  Well, I have yet to see SantaCon in San Francisco, but I hope to one day. But, what I enjoyed most was how it shined a new light on Christmas. There were so many old, eerie traditions we never really knew about before doing this episode. And it's fascinating to see how something so magical and seemingly so innocent can also have a darker, more sinister history to it.

• 1:31Yvette Gentile?

  Christmas took on a whole new meaning for me after covering this case. And if you're someone who needs a break from the Hallmark movies in their perfect snow globe settings, then just settle in. Because, we don't care if you've been naughty or nice. We're starting our own holiday tradition here at So Supernatural by unwrapping this story for a second time today. So grab a warm mug of cocoa, a fuzzy blanket, and maybe even dim the lights.

• 2:04Rasha Pecoraro?

  I'm Rasha Peccarero.

• 2:06Yvette Gentile?

  And I'm Yvette Gentile.

• 2:08Rasha Pecoraro?

  And today, we're revisiting the legend of Krampus.

• 2:48Rasha Pecoraro?

  There's nothing like a good holiday tradition. My wife and daughter and I, and Yvette and her husband Gino, we always love to celebrate together even though we're in different states.

• 2:59Yvette Gentile?

  Yeah, absolutely. We either fly to you, or you guys fly to us. But it's always, you know, celebrating around food and watching our favorite movies. Like, which one, Rasha? Can you guess?

• 3:11Rasha Pecoraro?

  The Wizard of Oz, of course, mom's favorite movie.

• 3:13Yvette Gentile?

  And then at Christmas time, I've talked about this before, Rudolph the red-nosed reindeer was an all-time favorite. And I know it sounds cheesy, but it's something that we love to watch during the holidays. But I have to say, even though Christmas is known for being jolly and bright, I've always sort of liked its darker side.

• 3:31Rasha Pecoraro?

  Yeah, like the nightmare before Christmas. I don't care what anyone says, that is a top-tier Christmas movie in my book.

• 3:37Yvette Gentile?

  Yeah, totally agree with that. But when it comes to dark Christmas traditions, it doesn't get much darker than Krampus himself.

• 3:47Yvette Gentile?

  Since the Middle Ages, he's been Central Europe's evil counterpart to Santa Claus. And y'all, if you've ever seen a picture of Krampus, like, don't hesitate, go and Google him right now, because he looks like this half-human, half-goat hybrid. Sometimes he's seen walking on two legs, and he's usually completely covered in hair, including his face.

• 4:11Yvette Gentile?

  Other times, it's only the lower half of his body that looks goat-like. From the hips upward, he's human man. Like, I don't understand this. Do you, Rasha?

• 4:22Rasha Pecoraro?

  No, I don't. And I've Googled it, and I've seen all the pictures of Krampus, and it's pretty freaky. But there's a few pretty consistent things that I've found online about his appearance. He typically has this very, very long, ridiculously long tongue. It goes all the way down to his torso, which totally grosses me out. And he also has these tall demonic horns coming out of his head, and some seriously mean-looking claws. And the word "Krampus," it actually comes from the German word for claw, which kind of tells you everything you need to know.

• 4:57Yvette Gentile?

  Yeah, so, I mean, like, totally out of a horror movie, for sure. Now, a lot of the earliest stories about Krampus are very vague, so bear with me as we tell you everything that we know so far. These earliest accounts of Krampus date back far. 500 C.E. far. And they don't mention Krampus as some evil Santa counterpart. But that's because these stories are way before Christmas was even a thing. At least, the Christmas as we know it today. Unfortunately, y'all, I don't have much detail about what these stories said. I only found that they existed, and that the northern Germanic people believed Krampus was some god-like creature.

• 5:41Yvette Gentile?

  Maybe even the son of the goddess of the underworld. And her name was actually "Hell," but with one "L" instead of two. And in some legends, she's said to be Krampus's mother.

• 5:56Rasha Pecoraro?

  So as some of these early interpretations go, Krampus has some kind of association with the underworld. I mean, maybe he rules it, maybe he grew up there. The folklore is kind of unclear. But what we can say about Krampus at this point is that he's part of the winter solstice in some way. The winter solstice marks the beginning of winter, and it's the longest, darkest, creepiest night of the year. So the Germanic people at the time used to light these huge fires to bring, you know, a little light in. And they'd hang what they called "evergreen boughs," basically branches from pine trees, in their homes to decorate. These bits of greenery were said to be a reminder that spring would come again,

• 6:40Rasha Pecoraro?

  and that the world wasn't completely dead.

• 6:42Yvette Gentile?

  Oh my god, that sounds so bleak. I mean, that's not the merry holiday feels that we'd like to catch today.

• 6:48Rasha Pecoraro?

  No, it sounds a bit creepy, if you ask me. But again, I don't know exactly how Krampus factored into the winter solstice. What I do know is that he was an early part of winter traditions, before Christmas was even around, like you said, Yvette.

• 7:04Yvette Gentile?

  Okay, so during my research, I found out this. Beginning around 500 CE, Christian missionaries come pouring into Central Europe, to the lands that will eventually be known as Germany and Austria. Now, these missionaries do whatever they can to stamp out old traditional beliefs and replace them with Catholicism. They say that Krampus and other mythological figures, including gods like hell, are un-Christian, sinful, and even satanic. You just can't believe in those guys anymore. Like, they gotta go. Meanwhile, the Germanic people are saying, "Okay, look, we don't want a war, so sure, we'll practice your religion,

• 7:48Yvette Gentile?

  we'll be law-abiding Christians." But Krampus, on the other hand, sticks around. I don't know how, and I don't know why, but it seems like he weasels his way back into Christian traditions by the 1700s. That's when he becomes sort of a helper or a counterpart to our main man, you-know-who, Santa Claus.

• 8:14Rasha Pecoraro?

  Now, by the 19th century in Germany, Christmas traditions are pretty similar to what we'd all recognize today. You know, advent calendars, presents, trees, candles, lights, the whole shebang. But the one big difference is that traditionally, people didn't exchange gifts on Christmas Day. Instead, they did it during the Feast of Saint Nicholas on December 6. However, the night before, on the 5th, the people had another special holiday. One, when translated into English, is called Krampus Night.

• 8:48Rasha Pecoraro?

  On Krampus Night, all the naughty kids who've misbehaved that year get what's coming to them, and then some. Krampus is said to carry a bundle of pointy sticks around with him. And on Krampus Night, he slips into kids' homes and uses the sticks to beat the bad ones. He's also said to kidnap the really, really bad children, and either eat them or take them back home with him to his mother in hell. But here's what else I found interesting. Somewhere in the Middle Ages, grownups start dressing up as Krampus, almost like Halloween, only that they go door to door trying to scare the children who live there.

• 9:29Rasha Pecoraro?

  The tradition became even more popular in Austria and Germany in the early 20th century. But you know how this goes. If any holiday sticks around long enough, it eventually turns into an excuse for people to rage and have a good time. And Krampus Night is no different. First, it's a chance for adults to dress up and scare their kids into being good. And then it becomes a time for grownups, particularly grown men, to put on Krampus costumes and get blitzed out of their minds. Part of the new tradition is roving the city in packs, causing a ruckus, and just generally being out of line. And since they're in masks, these people basically have free rein to do whatever they want,

• 10:12Rasha Pecoraro?

  because the odds that someone will recognize them are slim to none.

• 10:16Yvette Gentile?

  I mean, it's honestly kind of ironic, because Krampus is supposed to scare kids into being good. But for adults, they can go and dress up like Krampus, and it gives them an excuse to just go buck wild and break all the rules.

• 10:31Rasha Pecoraro?

  Exactly. And bear with me, because we're gonna take a bit of a left turn here. But around this time, Krampus also becomes a sort of feminist hero.

• 10:43Rasha Pecoraro?

  In early 1900s Germany and Austria, people start actually exchanging Krampus cards. And these are anything but your regular Christmas cards. Some of these show pictures of a female Krampus literally beating unruly men. Or there's ones of a sexy shirtless male Krampus seducing women. This is a real thing, I totally swear. So in a way, Krampus kind of represents this turning of the tables. If Santa Claus is the good, upstanding Christmas figure, Krampus is the bad boy who's coming around and causing mayhem and flipping societal norms on their heads.

• 11:25Yvette Gentile?

  Now, Krampus may not be the most appealing or famous Christmas creature, but he's definitely made inroads into American pop culture. For example, you might have seen or at least heard of the 2015 horror film called Krampus. Krampus also appears on holiday episodes like American Dad, who our friend Danny Glover does the voice for. There's Robot Chicken and even The Colbert Report.

• 11:50Rasha Pecoraro?

  And that's not even mentioning Krampus runs, which, by the way, aren't just a German thing anymore. During these get togethers, people dress up, they drink, they literally run wild all over town. If you live in Washington State, which I do, you can put on your own goat fur and horns and join the annual Krampus-themed pub crawl in the town of Bellingham. I can't believe this is actually a thing and I've never heard of it until today.

• 12:17Yvette Gentile?

  Yeah, I mean, that's wild. Here in San Francisco, you know, we witness SantaCon every year. So, you know, it's kind of similar, but I don't know if they got goat fur and horns. You know what? I mean, it does, it sounds fun, but I don't think we can ignore the darkness at the core of these stories. Krampus originally wasn't about drinking or partying. He was the ruler of the underworld or even an evil Santa who dragged people off to hell to be tortured for eternity.

• 12:50Rasha Pecoraro?

  And it's worth mentioning that Krampus might not just be a figment of Christmas imaginations. Because allegedly, there have been sightings of a creature that looks just like him. And I don't mean people dressing up on Krampus runs. I'm talking about actual humans who have come face to face with a real life Krampus all over the world.

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• 13:46Rasha Pecoraro?

  Hi, I'm Ashley Flowers.

• 13:48Speaker 05

  And I'm Brett. And if you're on the edge of your seat listening to this show, Crime Junkie needs to be your next listen.

• 13:53Rasha Pecoraro?

  Every Monday, I dive into a new true crime case that our reporting team has been on the ground looking into. From lesser known disappearances to the most chilling cases hitting the headlines. And I'm gonna walk you through it the way I tell my best friend, because, well, that's what I'm doing.

• 14:09Speaker 05

  Yeah, that's me. And I'm right there with you as we listen together, react to every wild detail, and of course, I ask all the questions.

• 14:17Rasha Pecoraro?

  And I'm gonna have the answers, because we have case files. We're talking to detectives and family members, and we're gonna stay focused on the facts.

• 14:24Speaker 05

  So if you're not already listening to Crime Junkie, what are you waiting for? There are over 300 episodes available right now.

• 14:31Rasha Pecoraro?

  And you can listen to new episodes of Crime Junkie every Monday, wherever you get your podcasts.

• 14:41Rasha Pecoraro?

  It's tempting to think that Krampus is just some mythological figure. Something, you know, made up to scare children into behaving well around the holidays. Except when we dove further into the research, we realized that disobedient children weren't the only people who had to worry about Krampus. It turns out there's plenty of stories from all over the world about encounters with goat people. I mean goat people who sound an awful lot like Krampus. Let's start with some reports from New Zealand about something they call the hoof man. Hoofman accounts actually go back centuries to before European colonists even made it to the country. So it's fair to say they probably weren't inspired by stories about Krampus.

• 15:25Rasha Pecoraro?

  These are homegrown legends, but it doesn't mean it's not a similar creature to Krampus. Now, I don't have exact dates, but here's how some of the more modern reports about the hoofman go. There's a highway that runs for about 40 miles in the northern part of the country called Desert Road. And as you might imagine, it goes through a remote desert with almost no civilization. People who are traveling down Desert Road, whether they're hiking or driving, have reported seeing a goat-like creature literally dart out of the scrub and cross the lanes.

• 15:58Yvette Gentile?

  That is cuckoo.

• 16:00Rasha Pecoraro?

  Totally cuckoo. And it usually moves too fast for anyone to get a very good look. But people know it's not an actual goat because it's seven or eight feet tall, presumably standing on its back two legs. In some accounts, it's even wearing clothes. Not unlike Krampus, who wears a red cloak in some descriptions. Other stories speak of a mysterious hitchhiker who's always waiting at the side of the road. If you look closely, you'll see that he's a man on top with goat hooves on the bottom, hence the name hoofman. And again, a trait that Krampus shares with hoofman: both have goat legs on the bottom and human features on top.

• 16:43Rasha Pecoraro?

  But here's the thing about the New Zealand legends. If you actually agree to let this hitchhiker into your car, he'll ride with you just a short way, only to say he's ready to get out. But then poof, he's gone. Before you even have a chance to pull over, he has left your car. He just vanishes out of his seat.

• 17:04Yvette Gentile?

  First of all, I'm not picking up no hitchhiker. I don't care who you are. I am not that curious.

• 17:11Rasha Pecoraro?

  No, I know, but it almost reminds me of the Hawaiian legend of Pele. And I'm not trying to disrespect the goddess Pele, the goddess of fire. But there is a similar Hawaiian legend that she is in her grandmother's state. And she's on the side of the road and she is a hitchhiker. And if you don't pick her up, bad things happen to you.

• 17:33Yvette Gentile?

  Hmm.

• 17:34Rasha Pecoraro?

  And as spooky as that all sounds, it's actually a good thing to let the hoofman into your car, just like it was a good thing to let Madame Pele into your car. He's thought to be pretty friendly and a protective spirit. So if you give this hitchhiker a lift, legend has it, you're guaranteed to make it to your destination safely. But if you leave him stranded on the side of the road, bad things tend to happen, from crashes, engine troubles, you know, that sort of thing.

• 18:03Yvette Gentile?

  Okay, well, that's not quite the same as sorting out who's naughty and nice or beating up misbehaving children. But I do see a similar theme here. The hoofman, like you said, and Madame Pele reward the people who do random acts of kindness.

• 18:19Rasha Pecoraro?

  Right.

• 18:20Yvette Gentile?

  And just like Krampus, he punishes those who selfishly speed on by and don't take the time to pick up the stranded hitchhiker.

• 18:29Rasha Pecoraro?

  Bingo. But the hoofman isn't the only one who might be a cousin of Krampus. There's another Maryland-based creature who's similar, and his name is the Goat Man. Since the mid 1900s, there have been legends going around about him lurking in wooded areas, particularly in the central part of the state. And in October of 1971, there's actually an article about him in a local paper called Prince George's County News. The reporter mentions that for a little more than a decade, people have been reporting sightings of a Goat Man, a half goat, half-human creature that's been popping up all throughout the state. From the tone of the piece, it sounds like the writer doesn't believe the Goat Man is real.

• 19:12Rasha Pecoraro?

  She's just talking about him like he's an interesting part of local lore. But just weeks after that article came out, something happens that turns even the biggest skeptics into believers. Over in the town of Old Bowie, Maryland, near where the newspaper article was published, two friends are out for a morning walk. It's November 4th when they are strolling through a rural wooded area of town. But on this stroll, they find something pretty unsettling. A small mound about the size of a football in the wet morning grass. They get closer to inspect it and see that it's the head of the neighbor's dog. A 10-month-old German Shepherd named Ginger.

• 19:55Rasha Pecoraro?

  Now Ginger's body was nowhere to be found, but everyone in the family had been frantically looking for her. Everyone, that is, except for 16-year-old April Edwards, the dog's teenage owner. Because according to some sources, April says she saw who took her dog, and it wasn't a pack of wild animals like one might expect. No. April said it was a beast, a half-man, half- goat that took her little dog, and she was not about to go after it.

• 20:28Rasha Pecoraro?

  When speaking with local papers after the fact, April was quoted as saying, "What I saw was real, and I know I'm not crazy." Then about two weeks after Ginger's head is found, some teenagers call 911 and beg the police to come to their house. It's just down the block from where Ginger was taken. They tell police that they saw something moving outside their windows. Something that looks a bit like a goat, with a pair of long horns on top of its head, except it walks on its hind legs like a human being.

• 21:02Yvette Gentile?

  So in other words, it's something that looks a heck of a lot like the Goatman, right? That's what you're saying? Or are you saying Krampus?

• 21:11Rasha Pecoraro?

  I think it could be either one. But it's not long before Goatman becomes synonymous with Maryland. And there's one area in particular that seems to be the Goatman's favorite. It's called Cry Baby Bridge and he's spotted there a lot. It got its name because when people drive out, they park near the bridge and then they sit and listen. They hear what sounds like crying. It could be a baby, or it could be a goat crying in the distance. But if you do hear that sound, you better get out of there because it's not long after the crying starts, the goat man will jump out of the woods and attack you.

• 21:51Rasha Pecoraro?

  Legend says he'll do everything he can to rip each of your car doors open, break the windshield, whatever it takes to get at whoever's inside. There are also stories of him breaking into houses to literally drag people off.

• 22:05Yvette Gentile?

  So you've got to wonder, is that a trip to hell? I mean, like the original Krampus? Or is there some other fate that this thing has in mind?

• 22:14Rasha Pecoraro?

  Well, I'll say this. Maryland's Goat Man didn't stop at beheading that first puppy Ginger. Pet owners say they often kept their eyes peeled for the Goat Man because he seemed to love brutally killing small pets. And creatures just like the Goat Man are still being spotted regularly to this very day. If you join us and jump into some of the rabbit holes online, you're gonna find tons of stories. Like one Reddit user that said he spotted Krampus in Venezuela in 1998. Since he obviously wasn't using his real name on Reddit, I'm gonna call him Bill. Bill didn't describe this sighting in much detail, and he said that the creature, which

• 22:55Rasha Pecoraro?

  he called, naturally, El Diablo, was standing upright on two feet when he spotted him. Bill was too young at the time to realize what he was looking at, but his older sister, who I think was 12 or 13 years old, actually fainted when she laid eyes on the animal. According to Bill, it wasn't until years later that his sister was willing to talk about what had happened, and it wasn't until after that conversation that Bill realized they both had seen something supernatural that day. Even though Bill didn't give a very detailed description of El Diablo when he shared his story online, he did make one thing very clear in his post.

• 23:36Rasha Pecoraro?

  He thought the creature was something very similar to Krampus, if not the Krampus himself. Another person who I'm going to call Cameron took to Reddit to say they saw Krampus 2. They weren't very specific about when or where either. But I still found this account to be worth sharing. Cameron said it happened on a summer evening. They were out jogging past an old graveyard when a figure that looked like a man in a long hooded cloak jumped out of a bush.

• 24:04Yvette Gentile?

  Okay, wait a second now. Krampus was seen wearing a red cloak in some depictions. Did they say what color the disguise was?

• 24:12Rasha Pecoraro?

  They didn't, but it was dark. And this thing came out of nowhere and startled them, so I imagine that wasn't a detail they were focused on. Either way, the strange part was, this thing just started running right alongside Cameron. At first, Cameron figured it was just someone messing with them. And they didn't want to give this guy the satisfaction of reacting. They just pretended not to see him and kept on running. Eventually, though, Cameron couldn't help but get curious. So they turned their head and saw a face under the hood. Except the face looked more like a dog's rather than a human being's. Stunned, of course, Cameron came to a complete stop. And while they were standing there just staring, they saw that the guy running beside them

• 24:57Rasha Pecoraro?

  also had goat legs and a tail, too. Then, get this, the creature thing laughed at them, and that's how Cameron got a good look at his super-long tongue. And that's when they high-tailed it out of there. But not without looking over their shoulder to see if they were being followed. The good news was, Krampus seemed to be content to let them escape. He didn't chase them down. And to this day, Cameron doesn't understand what the whole interaction was even about. They wrote, quote, "I don't know what I saw or how it existed. I just know I saw it and it wasn't a person in costume. For all I know, it was a freak lab experiment where I had a temporary hallucination.

• 25:40Rasha Pecoraro?

  I don't believe in Krampus, skinwalkers, aliens, dogmen, Bigfoot, etc. I keep telling myself there's some logical explanation," end quote. It's safe to say, I mean, it is safe to say that Cameron's a skeptic. But even they couldn't deny the description of the thing they saw fit Krampus exactly.

• 26:01Speaker 06

  I mean, look, there are similar reports from Alabama to Chile to Switzerland. The list goes on and on, but in fairness, this is Reddit, so you know what? You gotta make of it what you will. But there's a common thread here because all across the world, people have seen a violent, frightening figure who seems to be part goat and part human.

• 26:24Rasha Pecoraro?

  And while the hoof man and the goat man match this criteria, they don't seem to have anything to do with Christmas directly. They show up year round. They're definitely not limiting their attacks to disobedient children or coordinating with Santa on the naughtier nice list, which makes me wonder, could Krampus belong to some weird species we have yet to identify? Or is it possible someone got inspired by all of these accounts and created a flesh and blood Krampus in a top secret experiment?

• 27:01Speaker 02

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• 27:08Speaker 03

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• 27:10Speaker 02

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• 27:26Speaker 04

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• 27:32Speaker 06

  Hi, I'm Ashley Flowers.

• 27:34Speaker 05

  And I'm Britt. And if you're on the edge of your seat, listening to this show, Crime Junkie needs to be your next listen.

• 27:40Speaker 06

  Every Monday, I dive into a new true crime case that our reporting team has been on the ground looking into, from lesser known disappearances to the most chilling cases hitting the headlines. And I'm gonna walk you through it the way I tell my best friend, because that's what I'm doing.

• 27:55Speaker 05

  Yeah, that's me. And I'm right there with you as we listen together, react to every wild detail, and of course, I ask all the questions.

• 28:03Speaker 06

  And I'm gonna have the answers because we have case files, we're talking to detectives and family members, and we're gonna stay focused on the facts.

• 28:10Speaker 05

  So if you're not already listening to Crime Junkie, what are you waiting for? There are over 300 episodes available right now.

• 28:17Speaker 06

  And you can listen to new episodes of Crime Junkie every Monday, wherever you get your podcasts.

• 28:27Rasha Pecoraro?

  Start looking into Krampus and you'll see the same claim made over and over again. That Krampus is a mythological figure, also known as, uh, he's not real. He's as fake as the tooth fairy or, hm, sorry kids, Santa Claus.

• 28:44Yvette Gentile?

  But I've got to think, there's something to all those sightings we've covered before. Especially because unlike Santa, nobody's going around hiring Krampus impersonators to hang out in malls. I don't know, unless there are people, you know, hiding in remote forests trying to scare people. I mean, there's gotta be some explanation, right? So what I'm wondering is, what if Krampus is a member of some species that hasn't yet been discovered? Picture this: in 500 CE, maybe the ancient German and Austrian people saw this animal that they didn't recognize. And they started telling legends about how the creature was a spirit that helped them celebrate the winter solstice.

• 29:27Yvette Gentile?

  And Krampus traditions just grew out of that. Maybe these legends were also based on the sightings of a very real but unidentified animal.

• 29:37Rasha Pecoraro?

  Believe it or not, things like this have happened before. You heard me right, there are actual documented instances where cryptid-like creatures turned out to be real. Take a giant fish called the coelacanth. For years, scientists were finding coelacanth fossils, but they figured it had gone extinct around the same time of the dinosaurs, about 65 million years ago. This was in spite of people coming forward to say they'd seen living coelacanth swimming around in the ocean. I mean, fishermen literally kept saying, "Hello, I caught one of those in my net just today." The problem was, nobody ate coelacanth. So when these fishermen caught them, they immediately just threw them back into the

• 30:22Rasha Pecoraro?

  water. And with no physical proof, every sighting was dismissed as either a hoax, a trick of the light, a mistake, you know, all the excuses you hear today when someone sees Bigfoot or UFO. The scientific community basically acted like these blue collar fishermen were full of it. And it wasn't until 1938 that someone caught a coelacanth alive and showed it to a scientist. Then they had to admit it. I guess they're real after all. Now, I know fish and human goat hybrids are a bit different, but you get my point. If scientists all over the world could be wrong about some thought to be extinct fish, who's to say they aren't wrong about other species of animals? Like some Krampus-type creature?

• 31:07Yvette Gentile?

  Okay, you read my mind, but here's what makes me second guess that. Wouldn't a half goat, half-human creature, I mean, have a hard time staying hidden on land? I mean, like, coelacants usually live in deep-sea caves, places where people don't typically go, and they still get sighted all the time by fishermen? But a seven- or eight-foot-tall goat-human hybrid? Let's just say this, there's a lot less evidence for Krampus than there is for Bigfoot. And I can buy that the species might be really well-hidden in rural parts of Germany and Austria. I mean, you know, like, remote places with a lot of mountains?

• 31:48Yvette Gentile?

  I mean, a desert road in New Zealand is also pretty far off the beaten path. But, could this creature really live undetected in Maryland of all places? I mean, I don't know.

• 32:00Rasha Pecoraro?

  Okay, so that actually reminds me of another interesting theory I came across, and this is specific to Maryland's Goatman. The legend is pretty vague, so I don't know what year it takes place in. It started spreading around 1971, but it's possible that the rumors are much older than that. Anyway, there's this doctor who, at one point, is working at a US Department of Agriculture lab in Beltsville, Maryland. His name is Dr. Stephen Fletcher, and he's supposedly obsessed with DNA. Specifically, he wants to see how different animals can be combined with one another on a genetic level to produce these hybrid creatures. Hello, has anyone seen Jurassic Park?

• 32:42Rasha Pecoraro?

  Anyway, legend has it, at some point, he does an experiment on himself, trying to see if there's some way that he can incorporate goat DNA into his own body. But, as you might imagine, the experiment goes horribly wrong. Right away, Stephen knows he's made a horrific mistake. One so bad, he can't bring himself to live among society anymore. He runs away to a shack in the woods, and he's living there alone when fur starts sprouting all over his body. Somewhere along the way, his personality changes dramatically, too. He becomes violent. He gets his hands on an axe and begins carrying it with him everywhere he goes.

• 33:26Rasha Pecoraro?

  This way, he can attack anyone who's unfortunate enough to cross his path. He also develops a taste for people's pets. And to this day, Stephen is known to attack cars as they pass by, hoping he can rip them open and drag the occupants out to their deaths. This theory is pretty out there, I know. But there's actually some validity to the idea that human DNA can be combined with other species. In 2017, scientists in California made viable pig embryos in a lab. It is possible.

• 34:01Yvette Gentile?

  Okay, yes, but except, these scientists weren't just injecting pig DNA into a fully grown adult man. They were being very intentional about inserting human DNA into developing pig embryos. I mean, ones that hadn't been born yet. And in fact, those pig people were never born. From what I can tell from my research, if they had been born, they wouldn't have come out as a freaky pig monster. They would have just looked like, I don't know, ordinary pigs that maybe had some human tissue in them. Meaning, if Dr. Fletcher was real, and he did give himself goat DNA, he probably wouldn't have turned into a real-life Krampus.

• 34:45Yvette Gentile?

  If anything, he would have stayed himself, just with some goat cells, maybe. I mean, that's assuming he even had the tools to do this kind of work at all. The gene-editing tool CRISPR certainly wasn't available all the way back in the 70s. So I don't know what mad scientist operation he was supposedly using.

• 35:04Rasha Pecoraro?

  No, I admit it, it's a total stretch. But it is fun to entertain for a second. I still think the best Krampus theory is probably this last one. And that's that Krampus, real or not, serves an important need for humanity. See, Christmas has always had a dark side. It literally falls during the darkest time of year, right after solstice, when the nights are the longest. Even if you'd prefer to focus on the nicer, brighter parts of the holiday, you can't deny that the dead of winter has a bleakness to it. And back in the 1500s, maybe even before then, it wasn't an uncommon tradition in England to tell ghost stories around this time.

• 35:47Rasha Pecoraro?

  Almost like Christmas was a sequel to Halloween.

• 35:51Yvette Gentile?

  Speaking of which, it's also a longstanding practice in Wales to display a dead horse's skull as part of the Christmas celebrations. Nobody actually knows how this tradition started, but there are a few theories. Spoiler alert, none of them are uplifting, I'm just saying. One story says that when Jesus was born in the stable, there wasn't enough room for him and all of the animals that usually slept there. So Mary and Joseph kicked out one of the pregnant horses that was just about to give birth. And this horse began wandering the streets late at night, searching for somewhere warm and secure to have her baby. But she never found it.

• 36:35Yvette Gentile?

  What actually happened to that poor little horse, I couldn't say. But I know eventually, the Welsh people started displaying a skull to commemorate her long, fruitless journey.

• 36:48Rasha Pecoraro?

  This is against everything I've ever heard. It's so heartbreaking.

• 36:54Yvette Gentile?

  Yeah, this is a hard story to take in. But there are people who think this horse skull tradition is even older than Christianity in Wales. They say the bone doesn't represent the animals in the stable, but a legendary mythical horse that could journey between the lands of the living and the dead. Like a lot of other stories we've shared this episode, this one's pretty old and very vague. But this horse skull tradition may serve as a reminder that we're all eventually going to die. You know, your typical cheerful Christmas message.

• 37:32Rasha Pecoraro?

  Christmas definitely looks a little different to us these days. Though historically, it's a day where you're huddled for warmth, trying to keep the snow and ice at bay, talking about ghosts and evil spirits. But the tradition of telling ghost stories started dying out in the early 20th century, when electric lights were catching on and winters didn't have to be so cold and dark anymore. That's when Christmas started to become a happy holiday. Not to mention a very commercialized holiday that's all about buying the best gifts, decorations, food, and of course, ugly sweaters. But in the midst of all that 20th century shopping and festivity,

• 38:13Rasha Pecoraro?

  that's when people outside of Germany started to embrace Krampus. It's almost like on some level, we needed something dark and spooky to offset the sweetness of candy canes and sugarplums. Something frightening to put the stress of gifts and traveling into context. Maybe even the threat that something bad will happen to you if you can't avoid the temptation to give in to commercialization.

• 38:42Yvette Gentile?

  So whether or not Krampus is literally real, the point is, I think we as human beings sort of need him, or something like him. Because on some level, we all have a little Krampus in us. I think it's that good and evil, right? A darker side that needs to come out during the otherwise jolly times of the year. And that's why his legend is so enduring. Because on some level, Christmas feels meaningless. You know, to some people, I mean, Rasha and I love Christmas, but it's not always grounded in reality of what it means to be human. With all the pain and the mess and the frustration and the stress, right? That comes with it. So you know what?

• 39:26Yvette Gentile?

  We'll just keep telling spooky scary stories, because Krampus gives us something to believe in. Something that Santa Claus and his elves just can't whip up in their workshop. It's the darkness that makes him so appealing.

• 39:42Rasha Pecoraro?

  Krampus might be the bad guy of Christmas, but he's also doing something that's good. He's an excuse to upset the social order, maybe even have a mulled wine or two. He's a warning about what happens when you get out of line, but a reminder that life is a mix of the good and the bad. And that's actually kind of healthy.

• 40:03Yvette Gentile?

  Anywho, so we'll sign off by wishing everyone a Merry Christmas, a happy holiday season, and a safe Krampus night. Here's to hoping you avoid the most stressful part of the holiday and play both naughty and nice.

• 40:29Yvette Gentile?

  This is So Supernatural, an AudioChuck original, produced by Crime House. You can connect with us on Instagram at So Supernatural Pod and visit our website at sosupernaturalpodcast.com. Join Rasha and me next Friday for an all-new episode.

• 40:51Yvette Gentile?

  I think Chuck would approve.

• 40:56Speaker 07

  When the nights grow longer, the shadows start to stir. And that can only mean one thing. Full Body Chills is back. This season, step inside original tales where every doorway leads somewhere darker, every stranger carries a secret, and nothing is ever quite what it seems. Each story takes you somewhere new, but be careful. You never know what might follow you home. So gather round, listen close, and stream Full Body Chills wherever you get your podcasts.