I Worked in the Most Dangerous City in the America's

🚀 Main Street Over Wall Street is where the real deals get done. Join top investors, founders, and operators for three days of powerful connection, sharp strategy, and big opportunities — live in Austin, Nov 2–4. https://contrarianthinking.biz/msows-bigdeal In this intimate conversation, Codie and her husband reflect on their recent successes and delve into personal growth. They explore the complexities of human experiences, including sharing her personal stories from her time along the US-Mexico border. The discussion emphasizes the ethical responsibilities of journalists, the complexities of intervention in both reporting and real-life situations, and the challenges faced by service professionals. They highlight the historical and cultural dynamics various people, the fragility of societal structures, the nature of evil in human behavior, and the importance of understanding human experiences and the impact of individual actions within larger societal contexts. Want help scaling your business to $1M in monthly revenue? ⁠Click here⁠ to connect with my consulting team. Chapters 00:00: Celebrating Success and Community Engagement 02:54: Reflections on Personal Growth and Literature 05:46: Exploring the Depths of Human Experience 09:11: The Impact of Socioeconomic Status on Crime 11:55: Understanding the Border Dynamics and Human Stories 15:05: The Tragedy of Transience and Abandonment 28:10: The Weight of Journalism's Impact 32:03: The Ethics of Intervention in Reporting 35:54: The Dilemma of Bystander Intervention 39:47: The Challenges of Service-Based Professions 41:10: The Complexities of Kurdish Identity and History 52:40: The Fragility of Civilizations and Societal Structures MORE FROM BIGDEAL: 🎥 ⁠YouTube⁠ 📸 ⁠Instagram⁠ 📽️ ⁠TikTok⁠ MORE FROM CODIE SANCHEZ: 🎥 ⁠YouTube⁠ 📸 ⁠Instagram⁠ 📽️ ⁠TikTok⁠ OTHER THINGS WE DO: 🫂 ⁠Our community⁠ 📰 ⁠Free newsletter⁠ 🏦 ⁠Biz buying course⁠ 🏠 ⁠Resibrands⁠ 💰 ⁠CT Capital⁠ 🏙️ ⁠Main St Hold Co⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:06Codie Sanchez?

  Welcome back to the Big Deal Podcast. Husband.

• 0:09Speaker 01

  Wise.

• 0:09Codie Sanchez?

  Pecas. How are you doing?

• 0:11Speaker 01

  Good. How are you?

• 0:12Codie Sanchez?

  I thought this would-

• 0:13Speaker 01

  Big week.

• 0:13Codie Sanchez?

  Big week. I thought this would be kind of fun. Actually Tanner thought this would be fun. It was Tanner's idea. But the reason that we were gonna do this podcast is to talk about all this crazy shit that's going on this week. Um, I'm gonna go first. Cool?

• 0:24Speaker 01

  Please.

• 0:25Codie Sanchez?

  Book tour.

• 0:26Speaker 02

  Codie Sanchez, the financial expert who has more than 7 million followers across social media. She has a new book, the instant New York Times bestseller, Main Street Millionaire.

• 0:38Codie Sanchez?

  Book is out. Top spotted hit was 91 on Amazon, which was sooo-

• 0:44Speaker 01

  First author in the family.

• 0:45Codie Sanchez?

  Main Street Millionaire, first author in the family.

• 0:47Speaker 01

  That's huge. That's a big thing to live up to now.

• 0:50Codie Sanchez?

  That's pretty cool. We didn't sleep a lot this week. We went on all these Today Shows, which was rad. I've had more face paint on than probably ever before. Um, also got an IV today while getting my hair done and makeup done, which was like peak. Just peak too much, really, you know?

• 1:07Speaker 01

  It's great. Overconsumption.

• 1:08Codie Sanchez?

  Just, yeah, not great. Um, but I thought we could hit some of the highlights, because there were some cool things that happened this week. Like, first of all, uh, met, I don't know, a couple hundred people who are part of our community, buying businesses, bought the book. Had the biggest Barnes and Noble signing at this one Barnes and Noble in New York, I don't know about anywhere, which was kind of sweet.

• 1:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:30Codie Sanchez?

  Realized book signings take fucking forever.

• 1:33Speaker 01

  Long time. Yeah, I bet your hand cramp was like obscene, next level.

• 1:37Codie Sanchez?

  It was mostly like a mouth. Like, I just didn't want to talk at all.

• 1:40Speaker 01

  You were on the whole time. You were engaging in conversation.

• 1:43Codie Sanchez?

  Because they were cool. It was the cool people.

• 1:44Speaker 01

  I was proud of it. It was very impressive.

• 1:45Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah, it was like every type of human represented there. Um, okay, but what I actually thought that I'd talk about is, do you know we outsold Martha fucking Stewart?

• 1:54Speaker 01

  No. Are you serious?

• 1:56Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah, that bitch. You know, who we did not outsell, though, is Jordan B. Peterson. Beat us.

• 2:01Speaker 01

  Jordan's been here for a while.

• 2:03Codie Sanchez?

  Plus, he's like brilliant.

• 2:04Speaker 01

  Speaks to a generation of young men, women.

• 2:06Codie Sanchez?

  Yep, yep, yep, yep. So Martha, just saying, we coming for you. We're not coming for you in the kitchen, because you know that's not my strongest, too. That's yours.

• 2:12Speaker 01

  Dude, I would love to learn from the master.

• 2:15Codie Sanchez?

  I think you should have a cookbook.

• 2:16Speaker 01

  Me?

• 2:17Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah.

• 2:17Speaker 01

  The lazy, the lazy man's cookbook, or?

• 2:19Codie Sanchez?

  No, like hairy-chested cooks.

• 2:22Speaker 01

  Find her, find her heart through her stomach.

• 2:25Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah.

• 2:26Speaker 01

  It'd be a good one.

• 2:27Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah, I'm into that.

• 2:28Speaker 01

  Absolutely. I think it is just like a slow, uh, it's like a slow, slow process where you just end up changing the ingredients over time. So then you have your partner essentially eat everything that you already eat.

• 2:41Codie Sanchez?

  This sounds like you might be really familiar with how to do this to somebody.

• 2:44Speaker 01

  It works. I love it. I don't hear any complaints.

• 2:47Codie Sanchez?

  Love the local place because I don't know how to do this. Um, and it made me think about books overall. Um, and like, I don't know about you, but I mean, mom and dad, you're listening. I love you both. You know, this is true though. Mom gives these gift baskets that are like.

• 3:01Speaker 01

  Highly functional.

• 3:03Codie Sanchez?

  Yes. They're like socks, body wash, a razor.

• 3:10Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 3:11Codie Sanchez?

  What else might be in there?

• 3:13Speaker 01

  I had those little spongy things that you put between your center console and your car seat. And I think of her every time that I readjust them.

• 3:23Codie Sanchez?

  It's just like.

• 3:24Speaker 01

  And every time I don't lose my wallet or my phone in the cracks.

• 3:28Codie Sanchez?

  You're trying to suck up to her, but I feel like she watches QVC and just goes, I like this and I like this and I like this.

• 3:34Speaker 01

  No, no, these are way too, these are, I don't, I'm actually would be really interested in the source of these purchases.

• 3:39Codie Sanchez?

  Walmart?

• 3:39Speaker 01

  Because these are too, these are way, way too inexpensive to be on QVC. Like you there, right? You have to have a price point. Like you have to sell. You had to get product through the door.

• 3:47Codie Sanchez?

  That's true.

• 3:48Speaker 01

  I don't know, six fifty five for seat capture spongers.

• 3:54Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah. You also got two years of like very potent smelling body wash, which maybe she was trying to tell you something.

• 4:00Speaker 01

  I think it's a signal.

• 4:01Codie Sanchez?

  You're a little smelly?

• 4:02Speaker 01

  No. Am I?

• 4:04Codie Sanchez?

  No. You smell delicious. You smell like a man. So I thought I'd go with, um, lately I've been asking this question. I kind of like, which is what is the book or a few books that you personally keep going back to and reading?

• 4:18Speaker 01

  Yeah. Um.

• 4:21Speaker 01

  I would start with a book that I got introduced to by a dear friend a few years ago when I was looking for what was next in life out of transitioning out of the military. And that was The Surrender Experiment.

• 4:36Codie Sanchez?

  Oh, yeah.

• 4:37Speaker 01

  It's just like this great book about this accidental entrepreneur who started as like a community college professor and devout yogi and meditator in central Florida and he, you know, came to stumble into, he makes it feel like, this entrepreneurial journey where he was one of the first pioneers in software. And how he didn't sacrifice his morals, he didn't sacrifice, like, his paradigm did not shift. He was the same man, it felt like, at the end of his journey, from what at least he communicated in the book.

• 5:16Codie Sanchez?

  Great book. Alright, so Surrender Experiment.

• 5:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, the other one I would say is Dune. I come back to Dune a lot.

• 5:22Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah, you do. Don't you should reread that book? It's fucking huge. You reread that thing?

• 5:27Speaker 01

  I don't reread it in its entirety.

• 5:29Codie Sanchez?

  What do you do?

• 5:30Speaker 01

  I almost kind of treat it like, like a cookbook or like the bible where you just like go between chapters and I just.

• 5:35Codie Sanchez?

  Random. You just kind of.

• 5:37Speaker 01

  I have notes and like I have a lot of pages like dog ear, some things highlighted or some notes on the margins. I think it's an incredibly important book for a person who feels that they don't have the power to change, to have impact because of their station in life.

• 5:57Speaker 01

  You know, he was the proposed prince of his father's dynasty. And then he became the walking Messiah of a, you know, almost forgotten people.

• 6:08Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah.

• 6:09Speaker 01

  And, you know, you've seen the movie or read the books, you know that it was done with immense, immense strife and sacrifice and.

• 6:22Speaker 01

  Just a testament to, I think, a human will.

• 6:24Codie Sanchez?

  Does it, do you think you like it because you fought wars in the desert? And it is wars fought in the desert?

• 6:30Speaker 01

  Maybe. I think it speaks a lot to my generation, especially the, you know, the global war on terrorists.

• 6:37Speaker 01

  I think it speaks to the impact a person can have in their own life. And I think it speaks to the fact of belief in a system, not a system. I'll say belief in, in like your, in your personal virtues.

• 6:54Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah.

• 6:54Speaker 01

  Right? Like, you can't lie to yourself and lie to a people, I don't think. I think it's pretty impossible.

• 7:00Codie Sanchez?

  I don't know if I agree with that. Like, that is what people do who run people typically.

• 7:05Speaker 01

  Really? They lie to themselves and lie to people?

• 7:06Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah, I think we're great self rationalizers. I don't think that many people think they're evil. But I think they think they're right, you know? And they like can talk themselves into being the good guy even when they're the bad guy, you know?

• 7:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:22Codie Sanchez?

  It's like, they deserved it. They didn't need this. I'm better. But I'm not sure. I've never been to war, so I can't imagine that part. But I do remember your last deployment. I reread Dune. And I always liked that part where they talked about fear is the mind killer.

• 7:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:38Codie Sanchez?

  And that whole quote. And I remember when I was hiking Mount Baker. And it was like that snowy whiteout or whatever, and we had the clamp-ons or the crampons, whatever the fuck it was. And we're on those, those roads, ropes and the ice picks and people were falling all around in the little mini crevasses. I was so miserable and freaked out. And I don't like heights and we were, and, you know, I didn't want to go any further. And I kept repeating that phrase, which is like, fear is the mind killer, you know, let it pass through you. And, and I thought of you.

• 8:11Speaker 01

  Yeah?

• 8:11Codie Sanchez?

  So, yeah, I like that book a lot. You know what's the other song that I listened to a lot when you were on deployment?

• 8:15Speaker 01

  What song?

• 8:16Codie Sanchez?

  Iron and Wine. Remember that?

• 8:18Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. What's it called? Walking Far From Home?

• 8:21Codie Sanchez?

  Walking Far From Home.

• 8:22Speaker 01

  Such a beautiful song.

• 8:23Codie Sanchez?

  Such a good song.

• 8:25Speaker 01

  He is a great, he has a really interesting background too. He's like a professor of film, like University of Florida.

• 8:30Codie Sanchez?

  So good.

• 8:30Speaker 01

  And he's been just this incredible artist as well.

• 8:33Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah.

• 8:33Speaker 01

  Why? Why that song?

• 8:34Codie Sanchez?

  Hmm, because I would thought about you, like Walking Far From Home. And he kind of talks about, you know, iron and wine. And I remember. You know, I think of iron when I think of like steel and and iron back then. You know, as he was talking about, it would have been like a a sword, but you got a different type of sword. That was a gun, you know, and think about like late nights and like a foreign country. It was like a bottle of wine, just, yeah.

• 8:57Speaker 01

  I wish I had the bottle of wine, that would have been great.

• 8:59Codie Sanchez?

  Missed you.

• 8:59Speaker 01

  Missed you too.

• 9:01Codie Sanchez?

  Um, okay, so we go to.

• 9:04Speaker 01

  Books, your turn.

• 9:05Codie Sanchez?

  Oh, mine.

• 9:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, you gotta tell me, which ones do you reread and go back to?

• 9:10Codie Sanchez?

  You know, which one I reread is Chantaran.

• 9:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, there's no way you reread a thousand, twelve hundred pages.

• 9:17Codie Sanchez?

  I don't think it's that long.

• 9:18Speaker 01

  It's edge.

• 9:19Codie Sanchez?

  Um, you're right, I probably reread that every couple of years. But it's one of those books where you can lose yourself um in it. And I always go back to, you know, the story I'm gonna go to.

• 9:28Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 9:29Codie Sanchez?

  So why I think that labor is so important is I remember the story in there about the uh. And I reread it when we last went to India because it's about a man who escapes Australia, kind of loosely based on a true story, but with like spiritualism intertwined into it. And he's a convict and he killed somebody manslaughter on accident, goes to prison, escapes prison, goes to India and gets caught up in India and organized crime until finally he comes to like spiritual awakening. And it's a true story of this man who eventually goes back to Australia to to pay rack and pets for his crimes. And then goes back to India after that. And anyway, the story is beautiful and it's also beautiful if you're going to India because it's it's like this perfect picture.

• 10:11Codie Sanchez?

  But um, there's this one story about how the guy, the the Australian is like taking a shower in like a really shitty hotel. And he's like three stories up or whatever in the shitty hotel and it's so hot there and there's no air conditioning. He's like taking three or four showers a day. And he has a little guide with him who's a young Indian dude. And and one day he gets up really early with his guide and he sees these guys hauling, you know, these huge barrels of water on their back up the stairs. And he's like, oh, my God, that looks so miserable. What are they doing? And he's like, well, they're, you know, his guide says, well, they're filling your your shower, of course. And he's like, oh, my God, I'm so sorry. I had no idea that that's what they had to do to fill my shower. I'll never shower again. And his guide kind of freaks out and is like, what do you mean?

• 10:55Codie Sanchez?

  You should shower six times a day. Look at these guys. You're giving them labor and work. Look how strong they are. Look at them be able to provide for their family. And I always go back to that because I'm like, that is a perfect example of what people don't fucking understand when they think about. Capitalism's bad and labor's bad and they're taking advantage of people. It's like, no, to give somebody labor is so beautiful because it gives them an opportunity to be needed, useful, and then to provide for others.

• 11:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's a huge perspective shift. And I think it's like, you have to consciously, like, when you look at, in my beliefs, if you look at socialism and/or communism, that is a, that is a structure that has to be attended constantly.

• 11:40Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah.

• 11:41Speaker 01

  Whereas capitalism tends to right-size itself. And I think that is a perfect example of the trickle-down effects of what happens when there is an exogenous effect and somebody decides to, like, to...

• 11:59Speaker 03

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• 12:24Speaker 04

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• 12:57Speaker 01

  So many sites to, you know, I don't know, mess with the system.

• 13:01Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah. Yeah. Hmm, basically, good ideals, bad outcome.

• 13:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:07Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah, I agree with that. Um, well, actually, I was kind of thinking about that because, uh, this week, or was it last week? I had sort of tweeted about, um, Juarez and my time along the border.

• 13:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:21Codie Sanchez?

  And I had talked about it before, but I think I got pissed. And, you know, sometimes I think both of our best, like, writings happen when you're really mad or worked up about something. And I was really mad because a bunch of people were talking about how open border policies are, um, kind. And I, I don't believe that at all. Uh, I, I think it creates massive tragedy and violence. And, and so I was writing about, like, my time down there when I was in college, you know? And, uh, and how I spent a period of time along the US Mexico border in Juarez, which is a city across from El Paso, right? And, you know, what was interesting is, you and I haven't even talked about it that much.

• 13:58Speaker 01

  No, we haven't.

• 13:59Codie Sanchez?

  Um, but...

• 14:01Speaker 01

  What made you go down there in the first place?

• 14:03Codie Sanchez?

  Hmm. I got a grant from the Howard Buffett Foundation.

• 14:08Speaker 01

  Okay, but, like...

• 14:09Codie Sanchez?

  Oh, like, what made me want it?

• 14:10Speaker 01

  No, but it's like, okay, so you get a grant, so you're like, I'm gonna go cover narco trafficking on the border. Like, not like, oh, I'm gonna go track snow leopards, right? Or, I'm gonna study the, you know, I don't know, effects of, you know, water restriction or resource restrictions, you know, in the southwest. You chose to cover narco trafficking.

• 14:31Codie Sanchez?

  I don't know, I find it fascinating.

• 14:34Speaker 01

  Did you apply, sorry, go ahead.

• 14:36Codie Sanchez?

  No, tell me.

• 14:36Speaker 01

  Did you apply for the grant with the understanding of, like, this is what you want to do? Or did you get the grant? And then you're like, this is what I'm gonna do with it?

• 14:44Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah, you got the grant first. Basically, I was in the, um, what was it called? The, uh...

• 14:48Speaker 01

  Journalism school?

• 14:49Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah, Walter Cronkite School for Print Journalism. And my, yeah, it was a good school for that. Uh, Arizona's not the Harvard of the West, but, uh, anyway, and I, um, started working with the dean of the Walter Cronkite School.

• 15:03Speaker 01

  Uh.

• 15:04Codie Sanchez?

  Uh, because I liked writing and it was in one of her classes and did well, whatever. And she told me to apply for it. And there was a group of us that all did it and we could choose different... segments that we wanted to focus on. And I just, I think that maybe it's similar to you in some ways. I find it fascinating to go and see people that I cannot understand.

• 15:24Speaker 01

  Right.

• 15:25Codie Sanchez?

  Like, I don't actually understand why someone would rape and mutilate a woman along the border continuously. Like, I don't understand why you would want to be in a cartel with a bunch of other cartel members that are, you know, violent and hurt you too and have a high probability of going to jail. Like, that's just such a different world than me.

• 15:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:46Codie Sanchez?

  And I think part of me, I'm just massively curious about humans and like the depths we can go to depravity and the heights we can go to, you know, heavenliness.

• 15:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:56Codie Sanchez?

  And so I wanted to see the full breadth of humanity. And so money, like similar to you, money actually never interested me when I was young. I really just wanted adventure. You know, my favorite book was Adventure Capitalist, which is where he like, rode a motorbike all around the world and that's how I ended up setting that business up in Latin America. But back then, I wanted to tell stories that nobody else had covered before and I found that adventure fascinating. And I liked that slight sense of danger, for whatever reason. And so, yeah, that's why I ended up going down there. And another woman, Courtney Sargent, went with me for part of it and she was my photographer.

• 16:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:39Codie Sanchez?

  And I remember.

• 16:40Speaker 01

  Why just part of it? Did she not last as long or was it just?

• 16:42Codie Sanchez?

  No, they were like, we had the different assignments. Like, I would go down some places, she would go down.

• 16:47Speaker 01

  Okay, got it.

• 16:47Codie Sanchez?

  Uh, no, she's, I think she's still a journalist.

• 16:50Speaker 01

  And what was it? Was it just like, I'm going to observe and report? Or was there some distinct element that you wanted to cover or like bring to light?

• 16:58Codie Sanchez?

  You know, what I found is like, when you're observing things, things will just like emerge.

• 17:03Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 17:04Codie Sanchez?

  So I went down there originally. Usually you start with a who. So I had this guy Gil Gillan Water, who had something in Alaprieta, I can't, Rancho Feliz was the name. It was a nonprofit. It was a really cool idea. So basically Gil made a bunch of money in real estate. Uh, becomes kind of spiritual, becomes buddies with the Dalai Lama of all people. Um, starts this nonprofit in Mexico called Rancho Feliz. And the idea is this, you get a house in Rancho Feliz if you help somebody else build theirs. And so it is a self fulfilling nonprofit in that, um, they have to be profitable. They have to help each other. They have to have jobs inside of the nonprofit. They can't let anything go, um, into neglect or they, they get kicked out of the community.

• 17:48Codie Sanchez?

  So it's kind of this like capitalistic nonprofit. Anyway, I thought that was cool. So I started with him and was like, he's got all these connections down there. Cause I didn't know anybody and I spoke Spanish, but not that well. And then, um, we were in Al Capitan for a bit and that was kind of wild because I remember it being real cold there during the winter. And none of those places have heat, right? So Courtney and I are like sitting by that propane tank and you really shouldn't do that all night. So a lot of us had to stay up, but anyway, that's where we started getting a few connections. And Al Capitan wasn't that dangerous. So we started there, but then we realized if we wanted to cover interesting stories, like, you know, things that were headline stories, we need to go to the bigger city.

• 18:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:25Codie Sanchez?

  So then we went to Juarez and El Paso. And the moment that I knew I wanted to cover what was happening there, I'll never forget. Uh, when you come from El Paso into Juarez, you cross the Rio Grande. There's a, there's a bridge that goes over the.

• 18:39Speaker 01

  Oh yeah, I remember. Yeah, yeah.

• 18:41Codie Sanchez?

  And back then, and I don't know if it's still there, but there was this cross on the Juarez side, big wooden cross. And it was covered with pink ribbons and tokens. Um, and, and every single one of those was for a women, uh, a woman who was missing. Las Desaparecidas.

• 18:58Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 18:58Codie Sanchez?

  And it was a big cross and in my mind, it's probably even bigger than it is, but I remember it being like towering to me. And, and I remember looking at it and thinking, my God, like all these murdered women. You know, why? How? Who's doing this? And then as you walked the city, all along the city, you'd see crosses, like little memorials with, you know, like the songs of when it, yeah, or whoever. And, uh, and pink. Little pamphlets of the missing women. And, um, and when I saw those, I was like, how can so many like beautiful young girls just go missing and nobody cares? And it's like right there. It's like Stones throw from El Paso.

• 19:42Codie Sanchez?

  You know, how could that be?

• 19:44Speaker 01

  But does you, when you look at it though, was it just a different social dynamic? Like not caring? Like people grieve differently. People value human life differently. Do you think they had just become so socially conditioned to seeing it happen? That it was like not a factor of if, but when?

• 20:01Codie Sanchez?

  I think that darkness or like, I think that, that, I think that bad things love darkness.

• 20:10Speaker 01

  Bad things love darkness.

• 20:11Codie Sanchez?

  Like operators go out at night, right? Why? Because like the cover of darkness, I don't know why, but it's just easier to operate when things are opaque. And the interesting part about Juarez is that most of the people who were there are transient. So they have these big maquiladoras, the factories there, right? Where US companies manufacture like Home Depot parts, Lowe's has big maquiladoras. We went in many of them and they're like these, you know, assembly lines where they bus in women predominantly because the men fought too much. So it was almost, almost all the workers in there would be young women. So they're docile, they don't fight, they, they get paid less. There's no cartel like activity there because they're young women. They bus them in from these like, um, little shanty towns.

• 20:56Codie Sanchez?

  Most of these women aren't even Mexican. They're like from Central America or South America, or they're from South Mexico.

• 21:02Speaker 01

  Oh, wow. Okay.

• 21:03Codie Sanchez?

  So it's a, it's a really vulnerable population.

• 21:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:06Codie Sanchez?

  Where these women are getting sent up north because they can make money and send it back to their family and the money is real for their family that they can send back.

• 21:12Speaker 01

  So they, so they don't commute? They're, they're, they're the entire, or they're there for extended periods of time?

• 21:15Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah, they're there for extended periods of time. A lot of them are trying to get to the US, right? This is like a stop off on the way to try to get to the US.

• 21:21Speaker 01

  Got it.

• 21:22Codie Sanchez?

  Or to make money in the meantime, but they are super vulnerable because they don't have family, you know? Or if they do, family gets separated easily there. And so I think there's this opaqueness there where like, you know, you, you usually would know everybody. In a small town and there you don't because you have all these people funneling through. And then you have a bunch of people trying to cross the border there. It's one of the most poorest sections of the border in a, in an urban area. I don't know if that's still the case, but at least it was back then. And then for whatever reason, it's like where the Sinaloan and the Snoring cartel were butting heads. And so they were at war, basically, when I was down there. And I was reading that like last year, 2,000 people were murdered in Juarez.

• 22:05Speaker 01

  Last year, Lauren?

• 22:06Codie Sanchez?

  Last year, which is crazy. When I was down there, they said that during that three-year period that I was there, I wasn't there for three years, but like that rolling three-year period, 10,000 people were murdered. I mean, I remember jailbreaks from the local prison, where they brought in a fucking Apache helicopter to break somebody out of the, of the prison.

• 22:26Speaker 01

  Were it cartel members?

• 22:27Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like, where does a fucking cartel get an Apache helicopter? How does that happen? They buy it for, like, because that's from us, right?

• 22:35Speaker 01

  I, I wouldn't even begin to know where. I think you would probably buy it on the black market somehow and I, I have no idea. I, I don't know. We gotta look that up.

• 22:43Codie Sanchez?

  Maybe that's why the budget is so big for the Department of Defense.

• 22:46Speaker 01

  Why?

• 22:47Codie Sanchez?

  Because everybody's just kidding. Everything, it's, it's like, don't they say that, like, they have gun? They say that Americans have X number of guns, but like 30 to 40% of them are in Mexico. Like, they don't, they're not even all in the US.

• 22:59Speaker 01

  I don't know what the number is, but I know that there's like a significant percentage. Well, I mean, just for, like, we all are aware of the gun violence that goes on in Mexico.

• 23:06Codie Sanchez?

  Oh, yeah.

• 23:06Speaker 01

  And there's supposedly one single gun store in the entire country and it's on a military base.

• 23:12Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah, so they're not getting their guns from Mexico.

• 23:14Speaker 01

  No.

• 23:17Codie Sanchez?

  What if 2025 wasn't just a year of grind, but a year of ownership and flow? That's the idea behind my first ever three-day virtual event this February. It's not just a conference, it's a movement and it starts with you. Over three information-packed days, we're going to tackle everything you need to take control, from finding the perfect business to negotiating killer deals, to building the mindset of a true owner. This isn't just a theory. We're bringing in laser coaching on real deals and sharing the exact strategies to spot opportunities everywhere. Here's the thing. This isn't about me. It's about Owner Nation, a collective of driven, unstoppable individuals ready to rewrite their futures. This is your movement and your moment to act with others who are fighting for the same goal: freedom through ownership. No one else is doing this.

• 24:01Codie Sanchez?

  We've never done it before, and I think it's the first of its kind. So it's your shot to be part of something bigger when it comes to ownership. Visit the link in the description to save your seat, and let's make 2025 the year we own it together. This week in particular with the book and everything that's happening and this idea of like, financial freedom, it takes me back a lot to where it all started, which is like, a series of women who had no freedom and nobody cared about them, and they died brutally, and they were completely forgotten.

• 24:29Speaker 01

  And so you think it's a, it's a matter of resources that solves it before ideology?

• 24:33Codie Sanchez?

  Fuck yeah. I think money is protection, and I think money is freedom. And, you know, why do we think that people who have less money have more violence committed against them? You know, why do they go to jail more often? I don't think it's because they are poor and bad. It is because they don't have as much protection.

• 24:50Speaker 01

  It's a result of the kind of socioeconomic status?

• 24:52Codie Sanchez?

  Absolutely. You know, I think that saying of like, when you have something to lose, you know, you are more thoughtful on it is true.

• 25:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:01Codie Sanchez?

  And so, yeah, it took me back to that, and I kind of want to go back to the border to see like, what I remember and what's real.

• 25:08Speaker 01

  Right.

• 25:10Codie Sanchez?

  But...

• 25:11Speaker 01

  So your stance on this is, a little bit, so if I can just extract it a little bit more, is you think that the, the open border policy lends itself to more crime? It lends itself to more people being taken advantage? It leads to exploitation?

• 25:23Codie Sanchez?

  Oh, yeah. Yeah, I mean, I remember you would just drive like, not very far outside of Juarez, and the wall just ends. You would just like hopscotch back and forth along the wall for fucking miles. You know, Neftali Fuentes, a guy that I wrote the story about, a story about when I was down there, he had studied across the border like a hundred times, or something like that?

• 25:43Speaker 01

  I imagine it's not even that much. Neftali's people have done it thousands.

• 25:47Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah. Well, probably, yeah.

• 25:48Speaker 01

  There have to have been.

• 25:50Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah, and I don't know how it's changed, but like, it was really common back then. And he would get like, caught sometimes and shit, but like, it kind of didn't matter.

• 25:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:57Codie Sanchez?

  And...

• 25:59Speaker 01

  One side or the other? They were just kind of released regardless?

• 26:03Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah, and they had a couple organizations down there that would help people in the interim. So you kind of get the same like starter pack every time you got back

• 26:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:11Codie Sanchez?

  from the border. So you could kind of get yourself set up again in Mexico. But, um, you know, I just saw such tragedy there

• 26:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:17Codie Sanchez?

  because people are not kept track of and there's so much transientness. And that I think is where a lot of terrible things happen. Um, you know, and, and like where else in the world do you see the like hundreds and hundreds of women every single year being raped and murdered and left in the desert?

• 26:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:35Codie Sanchez?

  I mean, this happened for decades there. And I think a large part of that is because there's a huge border crossing and there's all this friction. I mean, some of those deaths have to be because of things Americans have done too. And so, um, so yeah, it takes me back there and simultaneously reminds me why it's so important that we all try to figure out how to get a little bit more freedom and protection. And, you know, and I remember talking to a lot of the immigrants that were, we would help them before uh, border crossings and write some stories about their, a series of old folks homes down there. And so, uh, a lot of people would drop off their elderly citizens at these really derelict old folks homes

• 27:18Codie Sanchez?

  before they were going to try to cross into the US because they knew they wouldn't, the elderly person wouldn't even make it.

• 27:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:25Codie Sanchez?

  And then you would send back money to try to take care of them. But a lot of times you'd lose contact, they would, and you know, I met multiple people like Carmelita, who hadn't seen her family in like 10 or 20 years. So she was like all by herself in this like derelict place and subsisting off of like nonprofit, you know, cash and

• 27:41Speaker 01

  No way.

• 27:42Codie Sanchez?

  Oh, yeah.

• 27:43Speaker 01

  So there's this, also there's like essentially the generations, right? Because there's a lot of children getting sent over because they have to be cared for, right?

• 27:50Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah.

• 27:50Speaker 01

  And then there's the adult or, or working class, um, or, or working age

• 27:55Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah.

• 27:55Speaker 01

  of, of men and women who come over for, to join the, you know, the workforce here in the US. I never even thought about Where the grandparents or where the elderly or where the, you know, first generations fall in line.

• 28:09Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah, back then you could look, one of the stories we wrote about that won a couple of awards was, he looked at the US Mexico border and what didn't make a lot of sense is as you looked at it that the age demographic was really old. Like the border region was, was more red, if red represented old than most of the country. And the reason why was because a lot of these people are getting left behind. They called them los abandonados and they were the abandoned generation. And so we wrote a series of stories on that. I think we were the first to break that story back in the day. But, you know, the, the, the part that I feel pretty guilty about from when I was young and dumb

• 28:49Codie Sanchez?

  was just how excited I was to get some of the awards for that story.

• 28:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:52Codie Sanchez?

  Like las desaparecidas stuck with me more because I saw.

• 28:57Speaker 01

  Cause you're a young woman.

• 28:57Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah, I'm a young woman and I saw brutally murdered young women and just those images and the smell of a morgue will never get out of my, my nose, like fully. But, um, but that had been sort of covered before. So like, it was so new to me, but had been covered. But the generation abandoned, that had never been covered before.

• 29:20Speaker 01

  No, I hadn't heard about this before. I had no idea, especially living so close, you know, relatively.

• 29:25Codie Sanchez?

  To the border?

• 29:26Speaker 01

  To the border.

• 29:27Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah. And so, um, so when we got that, those awards and I went and took them back to Alaprieta, to the main person I wrote the story about, which, whose name was Carmenita, who was like 87 years old or something like, but looked like 400 years old. I mean, these people, it was just the care is so bad.

• 29:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:45Codie Sanchez?

  You know, I have 99 year old grandparents who look 20 years younger than this woman. And, um, And I remember her saying to me, uh, you, now that America knows about this, about us, you're gonna help us, right? You're gonna reconnect me with my family. And that always stuck with me too, because I was so young. You know, I, I wasn't gonna be able to help her. And it was like, no, I know this is wrong. I know we could help, but we're not going to.

• 30:16Speaker 01

  What do you mean you could help? Like us as a nation, or you?

• 30:18Codie Sanchez?

  Us as a nation, me individually, maybe, like, people, citizens? I don't know, like, any of those answers. Um, but one, that wasn't what a journalist was supposed to do. I covered. I didn't influence. And then, two, I knew that even though I wrote the story and we got all these awards, nobody was gonna do anything different.

• 30:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, isn't there like a law in journalism where like, don't intervene in nature? Like, you see some of these incredible photographs, incredible, striking, I think is a better word, right? Where there's a young malnourished child getting circled by vultures, right? Or there's, you know, the famous one in Vietnam, right? Where they're executing men on the street, I mean, photographers just snapping shots. Um, and I mean, there's, there's countless others. Um, but is, is that like a rule? Is that like an unspoken law? Is that, I mean?

• 31:06Codie Sanchez?

  You're supposed to be the quiet observer, you know? You're, you're not supposed, at least that's how I was taught. You were supposed to be the one who documents, not the one who does. And, um...

• 31:18Speaker 01

  It's easy to become the target then, because you choose a side, maybe?

• 31:21Codie Sanchez?

  I, I don't think that's it. It's that, it's, it's what's happened to journalism today. It's like, it's like...

• 31:26Speaker 01

  But they choose sides though, in journalism.

• 31:28Codie Sanchez?

  That's what I'm saying, but that's what's wrong. I think, God. Is it sounds better for you to, it sounds valiant to choose a side and to say, this is what I believe, and I'm gonna do this, and I understand why people would do that. But I think if you are a journalist, you know, your job, in as far as I thought it was, was to tell what you see. And really try to remove yourself. I remember the, the dean who edited all, all of my pieces would, would ridicule me for the first or second drafts, because if there was any opinion in it, she was like, you are not, this is not an editorial. You are not an opinion writer. You are there to observe and document and tell the stories factually to what you see as humanly possible and nothing else.

• 32:09Speaker 01

  That's so striking, because in that short amount of time since then to now... Everything's littered with opinion.

• 32:16Codie Sanchez?

  A hundred percent.

• 32:16Speaker 01

  I don't think you can find many without it.

• 32:19Codie Sanchez?

  No, and in fact, when I was younger, I was, uh, I thought I was pretty righteous. Like, I was like, that's why I didn't stay in journalism, you know? I was like, I don't want to write the stories, like, I want to change them.

• 32:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:30Codie Sanchez?

  This is wrong. I want to tell them what's actually happening. And that's how I felt at the time, especially as like a young, young person so influenced by this. And she was like, this is not the, this is not the playground for that. Like, if you want to do that, that's somewhere else, but it's not here.

• 32:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:43Codie Sanchez?

  And I think that's really important, you know? And kind of to your point, even like the, the nature photographers, when there's like a little, you know, animal about to get murdered by something, it's like, you're, it's the circle of life, you're not supposed to intervene. But that feels wrong somehow.

• 32:58Speaker 01

  No, I think, I mean, I think intervention's also top of mind, considering what just happened a few hours ago.

• 33:03Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah.

• 33:03Speaker 01

  Right? With Daniel Penny being acquitted.

• 33:05Codie Sanchez?

  Hmm, oh, yeah.

• 33:06Speaker 01

  Um, I mean, I think there was a generation of young men hanging on by a thread to what was going to happen on this. I mean, to hear, you know, he was a service member, and to hear, like, I mean, she's just a young man.

• 33:20Speaker 01

  What happens when you see, like, violence, purported violence, or threats? And then you're disincentivized from,

• 33:31Speaker 01

  from intervening? I mean, like, it's insane. And you hear these stories, like, our, you know, our friend in, in the security world, Spencer, Spencer Corson. You know, he's talked about times where you hear these cases where somebody, there'd be a domestic dispute going on, a man, like, just beating a woman senseless in public. Somebody intervening, turns out, you know, it's a husband-wife pair that are, you know, drug addicts. Boom, this guy gets sued. Right? For, for assault. And she doesn't press charges on her husband, and like, it just goes down. And so to see Daniel Penny, where something like, like that happens, when he intervenes, you know, a man was still alive when, when, when police arrived.

• 34:13Speaker 01

  Whatever happens at the scene of the incident, but at the end of the day, person protecting other people intervenes and, you know, we put him through this incredibly difficult process.

• 34:27Codie Sanchez?

  I know. What are we telling people who help other people?

• 34:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, I would love to see like a movement for like a Daniel Penny law where it's like, give some protections, afford some protections to people who intervene. And I mean, I know that would probably get tricky from the legal side of the house because there's so many nuances and variables, but I mean, from a base level, at least now, I think young men are now saying, okay.

• 34:51Codie Sanchez?

  Opt out.

• 34:52Speaker 01

  Well, now, opt out, I don't know, because after this judgment, I think now it's like, okay, I'm not completely lost.

• 34:58Codie Sanchez?

  That's true, but I guess they put that guy through hell, so.

• 35:01Speaker 01

  But, but again.

• 35:02Codie Sanchez?

  Like, and if that was me, that woman on the subway, and no one came to my aid, could you even ima- like,

• 35:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:10Codie Sanchez?

  What an awful society.

• 35:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, exactly. And I think you see it like from city to city, right? I mean, I don't think it was anything that we would find in Austin, Texas like that.

• 35:19Codie Sanchez?

  It'd be interesting to see, you know, you kind of don't know, right?

• 35:24Speaker 01

  I say it now and I'm like, wow.

• 35:27Codie Sanchez?

  Well, I would say it more like this, like I remember the other day, you're just like, everybody thinks that they're gonna do something and step in until it happens to them. Like, you know this, you've had many incidents that, you know, I won't say that, or somebody's done something bad and you've just stepped up. You've been like, hey, something happened, it's not acceptable. I do not allow, you know, violence to happen near me in this way. So like, I'll answer the call. But I don't think a lot of people answer the call. I think a lot more people than realize that, like, isn't there a, what's that phenomenon called where like?

• 36:00Speaker 01

  Tragedy of the commons?

• 36:01Codie Sanchez?

  Tragedy of the commons, yes, but there's another one that's like, where when something happens, but there's a crowd, they assume that the other people are going to step in and they don't.

• 36:12Speaker 01

  Ooh, I don't know.

• 36:13Codie Sanchez?

  Ah, we'll figure it out later. Somebody will tell us in the comments, but basically that's the idea is like, you're basically like, ah, somebody else will deal with it, somebody else will deal with it. And that's how like terrible things happen in big groups.

• 36:25Speaker 01

  No, well, mom mentality. But it's like the anti.

• 36:27Codie Sanchez?

  It's like, yeah.

• 36:28Speaker 01

  Cause you could hide, you can, you know, you can commit violence and hide amongst a crowd because if you're all guilty, no one is guilty.

• 36:34Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 36:35Speaker 01

  But if you, but if you single out an individual for it.

• 36:38Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah.

• 36:39Speaker 01

  Or you, you have, you make the assumption that somebody else will intervene.

• 36:42Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah. Well, I remember when I was a journalist in Phoenix, uh, I did a ride along with, with a cop. And, um, we got called to a house for domestic violence.

• 36:54Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 36:54Codie Sanchez?

  And, um, he was like, oh, we're going to X, Y, Z place. And he's like, it's this lady and this guy.

• 36:59Speaker 01

  Knows about his name.

• 37:00Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah. It was like, oh, it's Sally and Tom again. And we get there and let's call her Sally is like beat to fuck. I, she is like bleeding. She is disheveled. He's obviously fucked up. And she's like, oh no, you know, nothing happens here. And the, the policeman tried to talk her and he's like,

• 37:22Codie Sanchez?

  nothing, something obviously happened here. What happened? You know, you called us, cause she had called the police to stop him from beating her to death. But then when the cops get there, for whatever reason, Stockholm syndrome or whatever, she goes back on it, which apparently happens a lot. Until the guy, and you know, whatever. So, so we had to leave. And I remember saying to the policeman, like, I'm like, like, obviously that man beat the shit out of her. What do we do? Like, and he's like, listen, if they don't press charges and they don't, unless we see something happen where we have a right to take that guy into custody, we legally can't do anything. And, um, no witnesses because she was the one that called. And so there's nothing we do. And he's like, and the saddest part is he'll eventually kill her. Cause that's what we see.

• 38:05Speaker 01

  Like the test of way.

• 38:06Codie Sanchez?

  Like test and play.

• 38:08Speaker 01

  That's terrible.

• 38:09Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah. And I, that, that really stuck with me. And, and then I remember over the course of that night, the next, uh, place he got called was like a bar or something. And we picked up a homeless guy who just proceeded to piss all over the back of the police car while we were in it. You know how there's like the cage.

• 38:25Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 38:25Codie Sanchez?

  Front. And so the thing just fucking reeked. And then we have to drop him off. The guy's got to handle him and everything that he's got to clean out urine like from all over the back. I mean, just, I can't think of a worse job, honestly, sometimes.

• 38:38Speaker 01

  I hope we have a, a major switch in how we think about service-based jobs. I really, really hope that we significantly turn around how they're compensated.

• 38:49Speaker 01

  How we think about them. I mean, I think to the entirety, like teachers, I mean, like your mom was a teacher for thirty years. Oh my, and what she had to deal with on a daily basis. Like, I have so much respect for her and the fact that she was able to come home and be a wife and be a mother and be as like patient and as impactful as she was and still is for you and your family. Because I don't like, that would drain all, because think about it, like how many unruly kids at times, because you know, special needs and so not necessarily all of them were unruly, but they had to be managed constantly, right?

• 39:25Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah.

• 39:26Speaker 01

  And so I could just imagine like how difficult it would be with one or two, and especially of your own, but you know, a classroom full of fifteen, twenty, even ten.

• 39:34Codie Sanchez?

  Oh yeah, that was tough. Plus, that was crazy, like back in the day. I don't give her enough credit, I really should. Thirty year special education teacher. She'd get up at five in the morning to go drive to Mesa, which is far from us, to be there at like six o'clock, so that school started at like seven, she had to prep stuff beforehand each time. And she's not for thirty years. And then they, back then, special education was always in a trailer.

• 39:57Speaker 01

  Not only that, but it was like, it wasn't diagnosed, they didn't separate.

• 40:00Codie Sanchez?

  Remember the noble?

• 40:00Speaker 01

  No, no, a hundred percent, but also like the aptitude of the children.

• 40:03Codie Sanchez?

  Oh, yeah.

• 40:03Speaker 01

  They wouldn't separate them by.

• 40:05Codie Sanchez?

  No, you could have extreme.

• 40:06Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 40:07Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah, I mean, she had one student who would like shove thumbtacks under her fingernail shoe, and she would always find thumbtacks all over the place. And so they'd be bleeding every, like just crazy stuff. And, and you know, another one that would like get really upset and you know, was a bigger kid. And so would start like screaming and ripping off their clothes and then like run around naked. And it's, you know, it was an elementary school and a middle school. So like, young kids don't need to be seeing all those parts and stuff. And yeah.

• 40:39Speaker 01

  Was, I mean, yeah, the support infrastructure has to change.

• 40:43Codie Sanchez?

  Totally.

• 40:43Speaker 01

  People tell me how little. Teachers make it's like you're you're paying this person expecting them to be in like new contributing member of society yet. We treat them like, you know, you know, minimum wage levels.

• 40:57Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah, yeah, but she, I mean, she loved it for a long time. I think the reason she eventually got out of out of that member, she told us was because. They ended up wanting the teachers to restrain the children, like bodily restrain the children.

• 41:10Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, like the hug she was saying, the power hug that they recovered that she was trying.

• 41:13Codie Sanchez?

  She was just like.

• 41:14Speaker 01

  They were trying to train.

• 41:15Codie Sanchez?

  Teachers to do. I'm not gonna like put my hands on somebody else's kid. And, you know, I don't I don't have any interest in that. And so she she ended up retiring. Uh, but, uh, man, I think, like, I thought I would have a bad day and then I call her, you know?

• 41:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:31Codie Sanchez?

  You know what the story, though, that I think you should tell if you want is to remember, um, of course, remember. The story about the the guy and the final night and.

• 41:41Speaker 01

  You're talking about, uh, that night when you had the the military leader who had to kind of give up his land of the where his family and generations had fought and died? Kind of, okay.

• 41:51Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah.

• 41:52Speaker 01

  Um, so, yeah, in in the semi-autonomous region of Iraq, known as Kurdistan, there was like a a local. Uh, military commander, um, who had deep family ties, you know, his family had been there for generations. Uh, and he had built an incredibly successful telecom company in the region, um, that had enabled. Uh, cellphone usage in the area that just like hadn't been. Uh, available in the area for for decades, right? Like lagging significantly behind modern infrastructure. And, you know, uh, he was a Peshmerga leader and the Peshmerga are is the fighting force of of the Kurds and.

• 42:32Speaker 01

  Each man participates, uh, as participates in the, uh, the Peshmerga. Um, it's like compulsory service, but it's like. Ten days out of every month. I mean, it doesn't matter what walk of life you come from. You know, you serve in the Peshmerga. And he'd been a commander for the area, incredibly well-respected, incredibly well-regarded. Uh, and this was during the, uh, like the the counter ISIS campaigns. Um, and the later, you know, Iraq war, uh, Operation Inherent Resolve and.

• 43:10Speaker 01

  I remember the conversation that I had with him because we were given an order to like leave our area because there was like an internal skirmish from, you know, Iraqis and the Kurds. Essentially, this was towards the end of the conflict with ISIS where they were declared military defeated in the country of Iraq. And the Kurds and the Iraqis, you know, have butted heads for a really long time. They had pushed a lot of disputes. And that's like a nice way to put it. If you go back and you look back on what was done by Saddam Hussein against, you know, an entire ethnic generations, just awful.

• 43:54Codie Sanchez?

  The Kurds.

• 43:55Speaker 01

  Yeah. And when you have a conversation with this man, these are other people that he had fought with side by side for the last few years.

• 44:08Codie Sanchez?

  The Iraqis.

• 44:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, because now the Iraqis, you know, the enemy of my enemy is my friend. And they had a common enemy in ISIS. And I think the hope always was that these two groups would hopefully find peace, right, in their want for a peaceful, you know, to rebuild Iraq.

• 44:30Codie Sanchez?

  Okay.

• 44:31Speaker 01

  And so this man who wielded incredible power, who had incredible influence, extremely wealthy, just sits there the night before we leave and talks to us about how this is just an accepting factor of history in the area because...

• 44:47Codie Sanchez?

  What is an accepting factor?

• 44:49Speaker 01

  Because the Iraqis were pushing the Kurds further away, back into, you know, traditionally older Kurdish territories, areas that they had bled and fought and defended so that ISIS didn't, you know, move eastern from, you know, Iraq through Kurdistan all the way to the Iranian border. Like they held their position, they fought them off. And you see the Iraqi forces the next day turn their weapons at the people with whom they've been fighting alongside, you know, for the last few years. And...

• 45:27Speaker 01

  A lot of these individuals, right, you know, men my age and younger, even a lot that were older, had not experienced the crimes against each other that their past generations were responsible for.

• 45:41Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah.

• 45:42Speaker 01

  And so it was, you know, a blood feud. It was, we were bred and born to dislike one another.

• 45:48Speaker 01

  And I mean, there's, there's a ton of like, of, of politics and ethnic dynamics that are at play, but you have this incredible helpless feeling because you...

• 46:01Speaker 03

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• 46:57Speaker 01

  Spend time and lives and resources thinking that people change their ways, or at least the course of, of history, might alter slightly, instead of reverting back to what it's been, because there was a defeat of a common enemy, right? There was like a common goal achieved with one another.

• 47:18Codie Sanchez?

  So basically, the, the Peshmerga and the Kurds helped the Iraqis defend against ISIS for years.

• 47:25Speaker 01

  For years.

• 47:26Codie Sanchez?

  And the second that ISIS becomes eliminated, the Kurds live on really valuable land.

• 47:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:33Codie Sanchez?

  A lot of resources.

• 47:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, something like, I think the...

• 47:35Codie Sanchez?

  And the Iraqis come in. And they take everything back from them.

• 47:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:40Codie Sanchez?

  So they wouldn't fight the hardwars. They'll let the other guys die from them?

• 47:43Speaker 01

  No, they fought the hardwars. They absolutely did. I mean, the Iraqis lost a lot of lives, you know, taking back Iraq from ISIS. But this is an area that, you know, is extremely rich in energy resources, right? I mean, it's like beautiful, green, rolling hills. It looks like central California.

• 48:02Codie Sanchez?

  Kurdistan.

• 48:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, Kurdistan. People don't realize. They think of it as just a, you know, forgotten, desolate desert. It's not. It's a beautiful, like, thriving metropolis.

• 48:10Codie Sanchez?

  And that's not very much of Iraq, right?

• 48:12Speaker 01

  No.

• 48:13Codie Sanchez?

  That is a small portion.

• 48:14Speaker 01

  It's a small portion-ish, but it's like, it's more significant than you would imagine, right? And so Kurdistan, right, the Kurds live across, you know, western Iran, eastern, northeastern Iraq, southern Turkey, and like northeastern Syria.

• 48:35Codie Sanchez?

  True.

• 48:36Speaker 01

  And, you know, they're treated like, there's a certain sect of Kurds that are treated like terrorists in Syria.

• 48:43Speaker 01

  The, you know, ethnic Kurds in Iran are like welcomed as their own. In Iraq, it's still like a very heavily disputed area. And I mean, when I say something autonomous, it's like, it's like the China and Tibet dynamic.

• 48:57Codie Sanchez?

  Wow.

• 48:57Speaker 01

  Right? Not too dissimilar. I mean, you have like movie theaters and you have like restaurants and malls and you see like supercars like driving around and men are in suits, like it's a...

• 49:09Codie Sanchez?

  In Kurdistan.

• 49:10Speaker 01

  In Kurdistan. It's a very like...

• 49:11Codie Sanchez?

  What is it like in the rest of Iraq?

• 49:14Speaker 01

  Not that, right? I mean, the rest of Iraq is like, it's a very, like, it's a, it's a poor country. It is not nearly as modernized. It's not nearly like have the amenities that we do. And people also don't realize in Kurdistan, it's not all of one faith, right? I mean, you can be of many different denominations and many different faiths, which just like blows people's minds.

• 49:40Codie Sanchez?

  And you won't get attacked.

• 49:41Speaker 01

  And you won't get attacked. You won't be persecuted.

• 49:43Codie Sanchez?

  But elsewhere in Iraq, you would be.

• 49:45Speaker 01

  Absolutely, yeah. The, fun fact, the oldest continuously populated city in the world is the capital of Kurdistan, Erbil, Iraq.

• 49:54Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah, which is where you were, right?

• 49:56Speaker 01

  Around there, other places, yeah.

• 49:57Codie Sanchez?

  Oh, copyright.

• 49:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:59Codie Sanchez?

  Cut that out. Yeah.

• 50:00Speaker 01

  Um, so, so you, you see this guy and you see resources and so that's why I ask so many of these questions around it. Because like I saw a guy with resources. I saw a guy who changed. I saw him, exactly, I saw him be the leader of these people who would do anything for him. Who like fought and bled and stood there at the edges of existence. Knowing full well that the people who were helping him might turn their backs on him. Or would likely if, if history had repeated itself as it did. And he had to

• 50:37Speaker 01

  go back to a life of which,

• 50:43Speaker 01

  how do I put this? He wasn't revered by his partners for what he did.

• 50:49Codie Sanchez?

  Yes, yes.

• 50:51Speaker 01

  He was thankless. And he was taken advantage of. And so, I always wonder, right, like the price of intervention.

• 51:00Codie Sanchez?

  Yes, yeah.

• 51:01Speaker 01

  I mean, here, for him, it's an existential threat, right? He, he has to. But at least for just once, had somebody allowed him not to live that fate.

• 51:16Speaker 01

  Just tough to see.

• 51:17Codie Sanchez?

  Fair, you know?

• 51:18Speaker 01

  And then it crumbles into, you know, like a civil war type thing and it's a, it's a messy, messy, messy subject.

• 51:28Codie Sanchez?

  You know what's interesting too is like, I say that money is the key to freedom. But it's like to a point, you know? It's like money, but also we really got to watch out for, for too much power in the hands of the government that that happens.

• 51:45Speaker 01

  I mean, I think hands of the government, but you know, we talk about mob mentality, right? And I think we talk about the wills of people. I think you can earn your way into constraints and in confinement in and of itself. Like getting on this hamstrack.

• 52:01Codie Sanchez?

  For me, I can't.

• 52:02Speaker 01

  You talking about getting on this hamster rail, right? Like, what was the old joke, you know, in one of your old firms was like, like, I want to buy a Ferrari?

• 52:09Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah. I might do.

• 52:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:12Codie Sanchez?

  But he had to keep working.

• 52:13Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 52:13Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah. Well, I guess I think about it more like, I don't think most people realize in America, like, if you've never seen the fall of a civilization in some way, it's really hard to understand it. Like, when I saw how quick companies fell in Argentina under Cristina Fernandez, I was like, oh, my fucking, oh, my God. Like, everything that we have is actually super delicate and interconnected. And if we allow too few in positions of power to control everything, they can pull it all away.

• 52:44Speaker 01

  Because it changed, it literally changed overnight.

• 52:45Codie Sanchez?

  It changed, like, basically overnight. And it, it, it, like, happens really slow, and then it happens way fast, is what they say about recessions, too.

• 52:53Speaker 01

  Right.

• 52:53Codie Sanchez?

  And, I mean, the history of Latin America is all about that, right?

• 52:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:57Codie Sanchez?

  And, you know, and I saw the same thing, you know, happen. Like, I remember my brother was in, was in Chile, like, locked up in his room. Remember during the?

• 53:05Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 53:06Codie Sanchez?

  During COVID, when they were having riots downtown all across, I mean, he couldn't leave and get anything out for, like, a couple of weeks.

• 53:14Codie Sanchez?

  And so, like, having seen that happen in those countries, I think I'm so much more protective of what we have here in America because it's fragile.

• 53:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:22Codie Sanchez?

  And you saw it firsthand. Like, you actually, I wasn't in the center of power. I didn't know anybody in politics when I was, you know, seeing some of that stuff happen, happen there. You, like, actually engaged with the people who were running things and then had to watch it fall, too. I mean, it leaves a mark.

• 53:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, absolutely. Because it makes me think about, like, you know, we talk, you know, we protect the house.

• 53:47Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah.

• 53:48Speaker 01

  It's like, sometimes how?

• 53:50Codie Sanchez?

  Sometimes how.

• 53:51Speaker 01

  Right? Or is it, like, are you complete, are you lying to yourself in terms of your ability to protect it all?

• 53:57Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah.

• 53:58Speaker 01

  You know?

• 53:58Codie Sanchez?

  Yes, you do what you can. What you have.

• 54:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, watching civilizations crumble.

• 54:03Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah, but I, you know, I do think like everybody talks about like, yeah, go travel and see the world and it's like, yes, but like just because you've, you know, if you've been to Chicago, like I remember when I lived in Chicago, like you, you're down on like the Miracle Mile, you're like at the merchandise mart, it's fucking gorgeous. Like, everything's great. If you only saw that area, you would never think that it was close to the murder capital of the US.

• 54:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:29Codie Sanchez?

  Because you never went south. And if you never went south, you never saw how close you were and yet so far from like a totally different world. And so, um, sometimes I think like it's not actually travel that makes a difference. It's like experience, you know?

• 54:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think, uh, I think people like to substitute those words oftentimes they believe.

• 54:49Codie Sanchez?

  Elder citizen.

• 54:50Speaker 01

  The coast can say that, um, that their travel is an experience and it is in of itself, right? But I mean,

• 54:58Speaker 01

  I still think it's important to understand what makes other cultures tick. Like I talked about earlier, when you have people feeling about the desaparición and los abandonados, like,

• 55:10Speaker 01

  what do, how, how do we view human life? How do we grieve? Because I would also argue that, you know, their system is better for elderly care, right? I mean, you're, you take care of your grandparents.

• 55:22Codie Sanchez?

  Yes.

• 55:22Speaker 01

  You take care of your entire families, whereas us in the US, you know, we, we send them off.

• 55:27Codie Sanchez?

  Their communal system is way better. Yeah. Their, their systemic nationwide system, fucking awful.

• 55:32Speaker 01

  I agree.

• 55:32Codie Sanchez?

  But like, they don't just, they don't just let go of their elderly people.

• 55:35Speaker 01

  No.

• 55:36Codie Sanchez?

  You know what else made me realize, like, I think, I'd be curious your take, I think evil exists. I mean, there are

• 55:42Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 55:43Codie Sanchez?

  evil motherfuckers that will do really terrible, terrible things. And it's hard to believe it if you have, you know? But it's our job to like protect against that if you have any resources at all.

• 55:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, uh, I say often, and I think you probably would agree since of what your experience is where as a journalist, but like, I don't think I'll, I don't think I'll be surprised by human nature ever again. You know what I mean? The ability for someone to do something just so evil and lascivious, or just so offensive against another person or society at large. And I hate that that's the view. Like, don't get me wrong. I wish it wasn't a view that I held. But it's very difficult to be proven. Proven opposite.

• 56:25Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah, I think you're a very optimistic realist. You're like, lots of shit can happen, lots of good shit can happen too. Well, I love you.

• 56:34Speaker 01

  I love you.

• 56:35Codie Sanchez?

  I'm glad you exist in our world.

• 56:37Speaker 01

  Me too, you. I'm so proud of you. What a great week.

• 56:39Codie Sanchez?

  Thank you. It's been fun. Yeah, I hope the book helps. I hope it makes some arc and people get a little bit more pushback on freedom.

• 56:48Speaker 01

  I do too. We'll see.

• 56:50Codie Sanchez?

  All right. See you guys next week.