ON SELF ACCEPTANCE... With Pamela Anderson and Rylan Clark

Welcome back to this How to Fail special where we revisit conversations from the archive to highlight particular themes and tap into the wisdom they contain. This week we look at two guests who have learned self acceptance: first, we hear from actress and global icon Pamela Anderson. She reflects on the toll that being in the public eye had on her body image and the long road to self-acceptance. Rylan Clark then takes us back to his childhood, where he opens up about growing up feeling different, navigating his sexuality and surviving bullying, which left him with a fractured skull. Rylan’s resilience is a reminder that truly owning who we are not only empowers us, but also shapes the individuals we are meant to become. I hope this episode provides understanding, solidarity and light to anyone who may be struggling or supporting someone they love. Listen to Pamela Anderson’s full episode of How to Fail here: swap.fm/l/zmy4u62s9lEvccugjBY6 Listen to Rylan Clark’s full episode of How to Fail here: swap.fm/l/GHulEMW6rrAc9o5qEv5O 🔗 LINKS + MENTIONS: Self Esteem Guidance: www.supportline.org.uk/problems/self-esteem-and-self-confidence Mental Health Charity: www.mind.org.uk Elizabeth’s Substack: theelizabethday.substack.com Join the How To Fail community: https://howtofail.supportingcast.fm/#content 💌 LOVE THIS EPISODE? Subscribe on Spotify, Apple or wherever you get your podcasts Leave a 5⭐ review – it helps more people discover these stories 👋 Follow How To Fail & Elizabeth: Instagram: @howtofailpod @elizabday TikTok: @howtofailpod @elizabday Website: www.elizabethday.org Have a failure you’re trying to work through for Elizabeth to discuss? Click here to get in touch: howtofailpod.com How to Fail is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment Production. Find more great podcasts from Sony Music Entertainment at sonymusic.com/podcasts To bring your brand to life in this podcast, email [email protected] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Elizabeth Day?

  Confession time. I have a tendency to postpone certain decisions for far longer than is sensible. Not the big life decisions, oddly enough, those I can usually handle. It's the smaller ones that somehow become disproportionately complicated. For me, rugs fall squarely into that category. I've known for a long time that a rug can completely change how a room feels, but I've always found sizing for a space tricky. That's why Anersta appealed to me. Anersta makes designer quality rugs custom cut to the exact dimensions of your space. So instead of making do with something that's close enough, you're choosing something made specifically for your home. I also love the fact that

• 0:41Elizabeth Day?

  you can order five oversized 12 by 12 samples for just $10 before committing. And Anersta's design team will help with sizing completely free of charge. Visit Anersta.com and order five samples for only $10 and you'll get $50 towards any rug of your choice. That's Anersta, E R N E S T A dot com. One of the things I hear a lot from listeners is how tiring it can be when your mind just doesn't settle. And I can only imagine this feels even heavier with intrusive thoughts. It's that quiet sense of being worn down by something you never asked for and never wanted, but just can't seem to switch off. If you struggle with this, I want to tell

• 1:22Elizabeth Day?

  you about NoCD, because it's a resource that genuinely helps people. NoCD provides specialised treatment for OCD. And what I appreciate about their approach is how human it feels. You're matched with a licensed therapist trained in ERP therapy. That's Exposure and Response Prevention. And over time, you learn skills that help your OCD symptoms become manageable, so you can live more of the life you want to live. If you're struggling with OCD or unrelenting intrusive thoughts, NoCD can help. Book a free 15 minute call to get started at learn.nocd.com/fail. Self doubt is a language many of us learn early, shaped by criticism, societal expectations,

• 2:06Elizabeth Day?

  and our past. Learning to accept ourselves can be The work of a lifetime, but real change happens when we stop trying to become someone else and start coming home to who we are. This episode brings that truth to life through two cultural powerhouses. First, Pamela Anderson, global icon and Golden Globe nominee. She reflects on fame, body image, early trauma and the long road to self-discovery. She also uncovers that the harshest critic is often yourself, but the only approval that matters is your own. Then Ryland Clark. Since rising to fame on the X Factor, he's become one of Britain's most loved broadcasters.

• 2:49Elizabeth Day?

  Ryland opens up about growing up, feeling different, navigating his sexuality, surviving bullying and the women who shaped him, experiences that made him exactly who he is today and we wouldn't have him any other way. We begin with Pamela's story. Let's dive straight in. You spent years dressing for others and you say it was fun at the time, but you're glad it's in the past. So when did dressing for others start for you? Was it when you were in the public eye?

• 3:16Speaker 01

  Well, I think you start believing what other people see in you and what other people expect of you. And so, I mean, I, again, I didn't have a stylist back then. A stylist wouldn't have let me walk out the door, you know, if I was wearing some of those costumes. It was just me digging through doors and putting things together and, you know, corsets and hats. And even when I first started doing interviews, when I was on TV, I would go to the Playboy studio and pick out pieces of clothing, you know, half pieces of clothing and have to put them together somehow. And they have, they had a great, just wild closet to pull from, which is, you know, every color shoe, every color corset, you know. So I just started putting things together myself.

• 3:57Speaker 01

  I remember I did a campaign for Chalk Moose and I remember Simon asking me, who styled you back then? It was so genius. I was like, I guess I'm the genius because I put those together. And he had tears in his eyes. He was like, no, don't tell me that. That was incredible. But it was authentic. It was fun. I thought it was. I remember going to Le Dome back then and I found like polka dot stockings with like the seam up the back and a plastic dress and a and you know, wearing my hair in a chignon and putting eyelashes on and it wasn't thought out, it was just kind of what I threw together. But then in my first marriage, you know, rock star marriage, I thought, what does a rock star wife look like? And then I just started playing that character, even

• 4:42Speaker 01

  though it's been fun to see Beyonce dress up as me in barbed wire and and again, those red carpet looks. But I created those characters, which I think is a compliment, because I think you can't create a you are not just a costume, you're the person in the costume. And I think what people responded to weren't just the bedazzled pants, but the actual young girl having fun.

• 5:05Elizabeth Day?

  Yes, the character you created in that outfit. And you mentioned there that you were creating a character dress wise within your first marriage. But were there other things that you were dressing for other occasions? So when you went to promote a film, for instance, in that era, were you under pressure to wear certain things?

• 5:26Speaker 01

  Well, barbed wire, when I went to Cannes, we hadn't even shot a frame of film yet, but I had my workout leggings in my in my um, bag and a little black corset and gloves and boots from a photo shoot I had just done. And so I put that together. It wasn't planned. I just came out on the pier and it was funny, boats were running into each other and people were falling off of boats. And I kept going, who are they looking at? Like, what's going on? And I realized it was had no idea. So they just, I just did that.

• 5:53Elizabeth Day?

  I remember that. That's so iconic. And it was your workout leggings.

• 5:57Speaker 01

  It was my workout leggings. Yeah. Wasn't that exciting?

• 6:00Elizabeth Day?

  So exciting. You are a creative genius.

• 6:03Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. Well, but I all these happy kind of accidents. And in the time, at the moment, it was getting a lot of attention, but it wasn't like it was the cover of Vogue. It wasn't. Fashion, you know, it was me playing. And so I don't know if that was a failure, but in the moment it felt disrespected or didn't felt appreciated, it didn't feel appreciated. But now that this nineties has made this comeback and people are really kind of looking at that time, you know, I guess I was a little bit of a pioneer, I'll just say that, look at it as a positive. But in the moment, it was courageous because it was just fun and it was playful, but it wasn't fashion, it wasn't, it wasn't cool.

• 6:49Elizabeth Day?

  Yes. And do you feel that people didn't take you seriously as a result?

• 6:53Speaker 01

  Oh, no, people weren't taking me seriously. And I think people forget too that I was an actress. I was, I wasn't just a celebrity because of my personal life or my marriage. I was on Baywatch for many years and I was on VIP for many years. I did a movie, Barbed Wire, it may not be the box office hit, but it's a cult hit. And I was married, it was a high profile marriage. And then people became celebrities for just being celebrities. And I kind of got lumped into that category. But I really wanted to be an actress. And I'm so glad I get to do that now.

• 7:26Elizabeth Day?

  I am too. You mentioned the nineties there, and we're also living through this era of Y2K resurgence. And there is also this sense that there's a toxicity to it as well in terms of body image. And I wonder what you think about that, because you touched on social media and the impact that that is having. What's your thoughts on it?

• 7:48Speaker 01

  Well, I think people have to realize too that all these images are retouched or have filters on them. And people can make themselves look any way they want, their bodies and everything. So it's not a good resource for body image, you know, social media. And also, every generation has its challenges with body image and with beauty and with.

• 8:12Speaker 01

  What we think is trendy or looks good, or we try and keep up with the Joneses, or we do what everybody else is doing. And there's just always a trade off. You have to support people no matter where they are in their beauty journey. There's no judgment of what people do. It's never too late to look in the mirror and to accept where you are in that moment. And to start there, start fresh, start over. It's never too late.

• 8:39Elizabeth Day?

  I totally agree with you and I really appreciate this idea that the Dove Self Esteem Project has of bodily autonomy and body realism, rather than this constant pressure to feel overwhelmingly positive all of the time about who we are and how we present ourselves, because that's not realistic.

• 8:56Speaker 01

  Right, yeah.

• 8:57Elizabeth Day?

  But I think the most powerful thing for me is, as you're doing, stripping back the layers, understanding who I am underneath it all, and not trying to chase trends that change all of the time, because that's the nature of a trend.

• 9:12Speaker 01

  Or not trying to chase youth.

• 9:14Elizabeth Day?

  Yes.

• 9:15Speaker 01

  And that's just been, you know, fed to us, is that's to look as young as we possibly can, as long as we can. And I don't know, I think it gets more interesting. You know, it does. I mean, I have my own insecurities and things that I, I catch myself. But I think that's the challenge is to embrace those parts of yourself, even the ones you don't necessarily like a lot. It's a journey, it's a challenge, it's a practice. And it's ups and downs, it's two steps forward, one step back. That's just how it is.

• 9:48Elizabeth Day?

  So knowing that this episode is going out and it's going to reach the ears of women, people of all genders, but young women in particular, what would your message or piece of advice be to them if they are going through a struggle with their own body image, with their own acceptance of where they're at on their beauty journey?

• 10:09Speaker 01

  I think that we're our own worst critic and nobody else is judging you. What they, I feel like that was my aha moment was when I realized nobody else is, they're more worried about the way they look. And that I can go to the beach in a bathing suit. I can look at myself in a

• 10:31Speaker 01

  Less critical way, and I know it's a practice. Body image should be based on how do you feel healthiest? And I think that's the most beautiful.

• 10:48Elizabeth Day?

  Autumn's here, soup season is back and my kitchen is suddenly working overtime. Quick dinners after a manic day recording and I'm enjoying spending a bit more time at home as the days are getting shorter. The thing that's made all of that easier is Hexclad. I am genuinely obsessed with these pans. They heat evenly, nothing sticks and the cleanup doesn't turn into just another job at the end of the night. Hexclad combines the searing power of stainless steel with the convenience of non-stick. So you get proper performance without the usual faff. They're dishwasher safe, love that, oven safe up to 480 degrees Celsius and the stay cool handles mean you're not grabbing a scorching pan mid-cook.

• 11:32Elizabeth Day?

  Hexclad is an at-home lifesaver. Start the new season with cookware that actually works as hard as you do. For a limited time, our listeners get 15% off with our exclusive link, hexclad.co.uk/fail. That's hexclad.co.uk/fail. Offer excludes bundles and items already on sale. Let's go on to your second failure, which is your failure to fit in at school. And I imagine that there's a lot that ties into how we started this conversation.

• 12:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, I, weirdly enough, I mean, that's quite a vague statement because in primary school, don't get me wrong, I had a lovely time. I had a really, really great time at primary school, but I had these times where I didn't feel like I fit in. And that was because I think I was trying to work out who I was and what these thoughts that maybe I was having meant. Because, you know, when you're nine, 10 years old, back then, I don't know about nine, 10 year olds now, but back then I didn't know what the word gay meant. I didn't know what that meant, but what I would be doing, I was quite stereotypical. So in the playground, the boys would be playing football. And I'd be with the girls doing bewitched routines and S Club seven by the church. And performing for the dinner ladies, like all of these things.

• 12:46Speaker 02

  And as much as I wasn't made to feel like I didn't fit in. I think that was a pressure I was putting on myself, like, why am I here? Why am I here and not on that side of the fence with the boys playing football? And that sort of progressed, I remember there was this one time. It was this boy from school's birthday and sort of that, that thing, you invited the whole class. And we all went, but he had friends from not our school. And me and the girls are sort of outside doing this routine and whatever while these are. And I remember his friends that didn't go to school were like taking the piss out of me. Which I can understand, but I'd been in this sort of bubble of like, well, they all know what I'm like. And then all of a sudden you're out in the, what you feel is the big bad world with people from another school.

• 13:31Speaker 02

  They're like eight, do you know what I mean? But it's just, I remember that, it's something that I banked and I thought maybe I shouldn't be doing this. Maybe I should be with the boys. So it's sort of not a case of not fitting in and being ostracized and at the edge of the class. More that internal feeling of why am I doing this? What does this mean? And, you know, you'd have the odd person say something to you. And you think, what does that mean? What does gay mean? What does this mean? And then when I moved to secondary school, again, I was very lucky to go to a really good secondary school. And I was a little bit targeted in the early years by some of the older boys. And then it got to sort of the age of fourteen, fifteen, and I was quite happy with who I was and knew who I was. And was like, fuck you.

• 14:16Speaker 02

  And that's when, I, I'll never forget, someone come up to me and tried to take the piss out of me, he was two years older. He had all his mates with him, taking the mic. And I just went, do you wanna fucking blowjob or something? Cause you're obsessed. And his face just dropped and his mate sort of took the piss out of him. And then I was like. Okay, and then he never said anything to me since. And it was sort of just like owning who I was. I wasn't ashamed to feel I was. But yeah, I think taking that ownership meant a lot to me.

• 14:43Elizabeth Day?

  There's a lot that I want to come back to on that, but I wonder what your thoughts are on the language around quote unquote coming out.

• 14:52Speaker 02

  Um.

• 14:53Elizabeth Day?

  Because I feel that that often implies there's something that you're coming out from, that there's been this sort of darkness that you need to emerge from. And it can be, it can imply something really negative, but it sounds from what you're saying. You always knew yourself, you just didn't have the language to express it.

• 15:10Speaker 02

  I totally understand what you're saying, and I'm really grateful for you saying that because I mean, coming out as the term don't offend me in the slightest, like, and I get why it's called coming out. Because it's like I'm telling the world who I am. I'm hoping in ten fifteen years' time, no one uses the words coming out. Because whether you're gay, straight, bi, wanna have sex with vegetable, good luck to you, like. It shouldn't be an issue. The weird thing is, I always say this, like, when anyone comes out in the media, that maybe has been working in the media for for some time and has never spoke about their sexuality or whatever, and then all of a sudden decides to for their own reasons, great, well done. And they get a lot of praise and people are like, yay.

• 15:53Speaker 02

  I remember having this conversation with a couple of other people in the industry that are also gay. And it was sort of like a passing jokey comment, but it was like, oh, we didn't get this fanfare, like, because we've always just been who we are. I've never publicly come out. I've just been on TV, I married a man, but I've never said, guys, something I've got to tell you.

• 16:16Elizabeth Day?

  Yes.

• 16:16Speaker 02

  On X Factor, something I've got to tell you, I'm gay. Like, I've never done the coming out video. I've just been myself and people either presumed or I've said something somewhere and, you know, that's that. So for me, I sit there and go, if someone wants to tell the world their gender, sexual preference were great, I'm here to support everyone. If someone doesn't and they wanna keep it hidden, again, it's great, it's your personal life, I don't care who you're sleeping with, whatever. But for me, I came out to my mum, but everyone else just knew.

• 16:55Elizabeth Day?

  Did your mum know when you?

• 16:56Speaker 02

  Well, the, the, I mean, it was quite a funny story because I got my friend's mum to tell her because I bottled it. And I heard her on, in the background on the phone going, no, Linda, no. And I ran away because I thought my mum's gonna destroy me. And what my friend's mum actually said, look, he's got something to tell you. And she went, oh, don't tell me he's got a girl pregnant. So, I mean, I mean, I don't know if she knew, but I mean, she wasn't deaf and blind, but for some reason, she thought I might have got a girl pregnant. But, yeah.

• 17:24Elizabeth Day?

  I love your mum.

• 17:25Speaker 02

  She's great.

• 17:26Elizabeth Day?

  On.

• 17:26Speaker 02

  She's a nightmare, but I love her.

• 17:27Elizabeth Day?

  Okay. And growing up, she was a single mother. You have an older brother who you mentioned.

• 17:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, Jamie, yeah.

• 17:33Elizabeth Day?

  Driver. He's a, he's quite a bit older than me.

• 17:35Speaker 02

  He's fourteen years older than me. So he was like a dad figure.

• 17:37Elizabeth Day?

  Okay.

• 17:38Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 17:38Elizabeth Day?

  Did you ever feel the lack of a dad? And do you think that's part of your need for validation?

• 17:44Speaker 02

  Do you know what? No, genuinely, hand on heart, didn't. The only times I ever felt odd about it. Was if when I was younger, you'd have a supply teacher that don't know the kids, obviously. Let's say you did something wrong, or you did something good, or they were asking you stand up in class and say something. And if they just had a passing, like, what do your mum and dad do? And so, well, I haven't got dads. They're the only times where I'd be like, oh, it's weird. But no, like now a lot of the public know who my mum is, if they've seen her or listened to her on my radio show. She's definitely strong enough to be a mum and a dad. And my nan lived with us as well because my mum wasn't well. A, a lot of the time. So I sort of had two mums and then my brother as a father figure.

• 18:26Speaker 02

  So when my brother was so much more older than me, he was the one that would sort of buy me my first computer. Or things like that, things you just don't forget as a kid. So I never felt the lack of a father figure. Because I almost had three parents. I mean, it's better than none, isn't it?

• 18:44Elizabeth Day?

  Yes.

• 18:44Speaker 02

  At that age. So, yeah.

• 18:46Elizabeth Day?

  So there wasn't that need to prove yourself, to show yourself to your dad?

• 18:52Speaker 02

  Apps are fucking lutely no.

• 18:53Elizabeth Day?

  Okay.

• 18:54Speaker 02

  No.

• 18:56Elizabeth Day?

  I've I've ticked that cod psychology box.

• 18:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, like, I really wish, I mean, look, I'm sure if you pick through my brain and certain traits or this. And you cross-reference it with people that didn't grow up with a man in the house and all of this, I'm sure we can sit there and find something. It's like, maybe that is because of a lack of a dad. Like, I've always sat there in full nature and nurture when it comes down to my sexuality. And, you know, growing up in a household with two females, did that make me gay? I don't know, like, but I always do think that. But I genuinely think I could have grown up in a household with the craze and still, like, Willie. So, you know, like. I genuinely believe that people are who they are. I feel like nurture definitely plays its part in people's character.

• 19:42Speaker 02

  And their characteristics and how they behave. But I do genuinely feel that people were meant to be who they are. I don't know. That might just be like a lovey dovey thing to say.

• 19:52Elizabeth Day?

  No, I totally agree with you. And that idea of nurture being integral, that mindset that you mentioned earlier of that. Idea that if you wanted something, you'd had to put in the hours and you could achieve it.

• 20:01Speaker 02

  I'll get it.

• 20:02Elizabeth Day?

  That's pure nurture. And that's clearly something that you inherited from your mum, your gran, your older brother.

• 20:08Speaker 02

  Absolutely. You you want something, you go and work for it and you go and get it. And even now, I'm in a very luxury, grateful position. Where I could be places and they'll go, you ain't got to pay for this. Or you can have this. Don't get me wrong, sometimes you sit there and go, thanks, that's lovely, really appreciate it. But I'll never forget after X Factor, it was about six months after. And I all I wanted to do, to me, I always wanted a Louis Vuitton suitcase. Don't know why, it's their stereotype, blah blah blah. Oh, you've made it. And I remember going to the shop with my old tour manager and walking in there and going, I want to buy that. And I'm like, yeah, no worries, we'll take you upstairs to the Louis Vuitton apartment. And I'm like, oh, my god, that's amazing. And literally, they were like, we've spoke to our press team, they're happy to.

• 20:54Speaker 02

  Give this you and I just broke down and was like, no, I wanna pay for it. I want to pay for it. Let me buy this for myself. Like, that sounds so ridiculous. Because if they wanna send me one now, I'll take it, but.

• 21:07Elizabeth Day?

  You made the point now.

• 21:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, lose time. But literally, like, for my own validation.

• 21:12Elizabeth Day?

  Yes.

• 21:12Speaker 02

  That's when I knew I I had done well.

• 21:15Elizabeth Day?

  Yes.

• 21:15Speaker 02

  To be able to have the money to buy that. Like, and that's when I was like, right, I wanna do it. And I did. And to this day, like, I rinse it. Like, it's fraying because I use it that much. But every time I pick up that suitcase, even all these years on. I've been lucky enough to earn some money, build my own house, I've got a car, built my mama's house. But every time I pick that suitcase up, I'm like. You done a right.

• 21:37Elizabeth Day?

  Symbolic.

• 21:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 21:38Elizabeth Day?

  That time of not fitting in at school, you've been, I think, very generous to the people who, as you say, kind of teased you. Because actually, it was very serious bullying at one point, wasn't it?

• 21:48Speaker 02

  It was, yeah. At one point, it was quite bad.

• 21:50Elizabeth Day?

  You fractured your skull.

• 21:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, so that was late primary school, that was. And it wasn't actually kids at school. There was this place. Near our school where everyone went. It was like an adventure playground thing. Not like a playground, like a normal one. It was like a purpose-built, like rope swings and you'd have staff there. Like, it was one of those sort of children's places. And yeah, just one day, this group of kids, I was just on the swing, just grabbed me. Threw me down on the floor and kicked me in the head. And it fractured my skull. And the next thing I know, I'm in an ambulance. And I remember going past my house, seeing my house through the window and was like. What? It's weird because I was young and I don't really remember that much, but I remember those snippets.

• 22:35Speaker 02

  And I remember being in the ambulance and seeing my house, being like, that's my house. And then I lay down and I'm like, no. And then I'm crying because I'm scared. I'm like, what's going on? Like, my parents, isn't it? Like, all of this, like, what's going on? And yeah, yeah, it fractured my skull. And yeah, it just turned out these kids had seen me playing with the girls and didn't like it. And that was it. I didn't even know them. But they were just other kids that went there. So, yeah, so that was sort of the final straw for my mum, actually. That's when she went, we're leaving, we're moving, don't wanna be here no more. And that's when we moved out. We were the last sort of ones of our family to move out to Essex. We all come from East London. And yeah, that was the final straw for my mum. She just went, no, we're going.

• 23:17Elizabeth Day?

  Do you think there's something about having Ryland and Ross that dates from that moment where it's safer psychologically for you to keep your truest of truest self protected?

• 23:33Speaker 02

  You couldn't be more right. That's exactly what I do. And yeah, it probably does come from events of my life. When I went on X, like I said earlier, you have a decision to make. Do you take this and hope to get something? Or do you stop and disappear and get nothing? And that's when the brain split into two. And I went, right, this is a Ryland night.