Can Data Centers Be Done Right?

As the AI boom fuels a massive data-center buildout, communities across the country are pushing back. Kara speaks with environmental activist and consumer advocate Erin Brockovich, Utah climate scientist Logan Mitchell, Virginia organizer Elena Schlossberg and Lansing, Mich., Mayor Andy Schor about the industry’s environmental and political impact. They examine the secretive deals and tax incentives behind many data-center projects, and they debate whether even responsibly designed developments can win community support. The panel also explores what meaningful guardrails might look like, whether cleaner energy and greater transparency could make data centers a genuine public benefit, and if it’s even possible to shift public opinion as data centers become increasingly wrapped up in a broader backlash against AI. Questions? Comments? Email us at [email protected] or find us on YouTube, Instagram, TikTok, Threads, and Bluesky @onwithkaraswisher. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  If they have to pay for their own stuff, you better believe they'll innovate. Because I give this example all the time. Somebody drops you off at a CarMax, and they say, "The world is your oyster. Pick whatever you want." You're probably going to pick the Ferrari. But if they say, "Hey, you have to cover the cost to your own car, you might pick the Ford Fiesta." And right now, they're picking the Lamborghini off our dime, and it's time they pick the Ford Fiesta. They have to innovate.

• 0:36Kara Swisher?

  Hi, everyone. From New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network, this is On with Kara Swisher, and I'm Kara Swisher. Today, we're talking about data centers. And we're talking about them a lot. I hope you will stick with it because it's a very long and involved series of interviews about what's happening in data centers. I think it's well worth your time because the five biggest hyperscalers that include Amazon, Google, and Microsoft are on track to spend roughly $1 trillion on AI infrastructure between 2025 and this year as part of an accelerating AI boom driven by tech companies and investors and supported by the White House. But a recent Gallup poll found seven in 10 Americans oppose constructing AI data centers in their local area.

• 1:21Kara Swisher?

  AI data centers have become a bipartisan political issue in light of growing concerns about their impact on water, on air quality, on the power grid, and energy costs. My guests today are each dealing with the environmental and political effects of data centers in different ways. Erin Brockovich is a veteran environmental activist and consumer advocate. She's best known for her investigation into contaminated water in Hinckley, California, and the landmark legal victory for residents that inspired the film Erin Brockovich. You should go watch it. It's so great. This year, Erin launched a map tracking the data center buildout across the US. Logan Mitchell is a climate and air quality scientist and analyst for Utah Clean Energy. In addition to other research, he's calculated the emissions for the proposed Stratos data center

• 2:06Kara Swisher?

  in Box Elder County, Utah. Elena Schlossberg is the executive director of the Coalition to Protect Prince William County, a grassroots organization based in Northern Virginia that led the push against the sprawling data center project called Digital Gateway. And Andy Shore is the mayor of Lansing, Michigan. He supported a proposal for what he called "a sensible, responsible data center project in downtown Lansing" from a company that emphasizes environmental sustainability. And it did not pass. It's really important to understand why this happened. Even sensible ones are getting shot down. And how do you do the right data center buildout, which is somewhat critical to the future of technology? And at the same time, are all of us sick of billionaires

• 2:51Kara Swisher?

  telling all of us what to do? I know I am, and I'm sure lots more people are. It's a bipartisan issue. It's really important. And it's really at the core of democracy. It's why I'm interested. Data centers are a proxy for anger over tech. And I want to have a thoughtful discussion about why that is and what we can do. Our expert question today comes from Beth Macy, a reporter and author of books, including Dope Sick and Paper Girl. She's currently running for Congress in Virginia's 6th district, and she knows a lot about these issues. So stick around.

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• 4:01Speaker 03

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• 4:34Kara Swisher?

  Erin, Logan, Elena, and Andy, thanks for coming on On. Great to be here. Thanks for having us.

• 4:39Speaker 06

  Thank you for having me on On.

• 4:42Kara Swisher?

  On On. That's how we do it. There's a lot to get into, but I want to start with a very short answer from each of you. What was the moment when you knew data centers were becoming a national issue with political consequences and also a local issue? Erin, you go first, then Logan, Elena, and Andy.

• 4:59Speaker 06

  So it began with me on a particular morning, maybe 15, 16 weeks ago, where I woke up and I had 30 emails, individual emails from the same community out of Pennsylvania talking about data centers. So anytime 30 people from the same community reach out to me, I typically am like, "What's going on?" And it was data centers. And to be honest with you, I'm like, I didn't know a whole lot about the data centers. I knew some, so I decided to look into it. Being the person that I am, I have to see the big picture. So I thought, gosh, is this just one backyard and one city and one state? So I created the map, the Brockovichdatacenter.com. And the first day,

• 5:42Speaker 06

  when it crashed twice because of submissions, I'm like, oh, my gosh, what's going on out there? And it didn't take but 72 hours for the map to populate very quickly with multiple reports coming in from every single state. That blew me away. And that's when I'm like, oh, my God, what did I just step into?

• 6:02Kara Swisher?

  Right. And you hadn't been paying attention to Elon or the rest of what was happening in Tennessee or anything like that before that?

• 6:08Speaker 06

  Yes, I had been watching that a little bit from completely a different perspective of it's a community and obviously the environmental contamination going on.

• 6:18Kara Swisher?

  Okay. All right, Logan? Yeah, for me, it was, you know, I work at Utah Clean Energy, and I follow the energy sector and what's going on with how new resources are being built out. So I've been following the buildup of data centers for several years now. But things really changed in a fundamental way for me here in Utah with the announcement and kind of the public explosion of interest in the Stratos data center that was proposed on the shores of the Great Salt Lake. That really upended everything. And all of the discussion about it, it just, it turned into this wild experience. And so the governor was involved. And one of the things that really struck me was there is a quote from one of the people there that said, "There's a lot of

• 7:02Kara Swisher?

  top-down follow-the-leader culture here in Utah, but something fundamental has changed. It's torches and pitchforks out here." So that kind of sentiment really struck me. And I was like, wow. And now there's been some real political consequences from that. And I think we're still at the very beginning of that story. Great. Elena?

• 7:21Speaker 00

  So I'm a native Virginian. And we bought our dream 10 acres here in the Royal Crescent, and we built our dream home. We couldn't afford to pay anybody to do it. We did it ourselves. And I became very engaged in the Royal Crescent and land use. So I am by nature now grassroots organizer. In 2014, for the first time, a transmission line project was going to cross my property. And when I realized it was for a secretive Amazon data center campus that had our local leaders signing NDAs and our economic development department, I was like, oh, no. Oh, no, you are not. And so at my kitchen table where I'm sitting now, I formed the Coalition to Protect Prince William County.

• 8:05Speaker 00

  And in 2021, when the Digital Gateway, the largest project in the world, was proposed next to the Manassas National Battle Park on hallowed ground in the headwaters of a regional drinking water supply, we knew something catastrophically is going to happen. We could tell that our democratically-elected board was ignoring us. And what I said in a Zoom meeting like this to a data center organization was, "If QTS that had just been purchased by Blackstone and Compass persisted, the backlash would not just be against them, that it would be against the entire industry." And so here we are.

• 8:45Kara Swisher?

  Here we are. Here we are. Okay. Andy, now you are a public official, so.

• 8:50Speaker 05

  I am. I am. You know, it's a conversation that is newer for us. We certainly have had, you know, small data centers as redundancies. We have insurance companies. We have our state government. They have big computer rooms that were redundancies, always called data centers. It was never really a big deal. And we had a proposal that came here, which I'm happy to talk about, where we did pretty much everything that I think that you all are talking about in terms of make them pay, amongst many other things.

• 9:18Kara Swisher?

  And when it came out, it was, there were some people who wanted more details. But then about an hour and a quarter down the road from us, a hyperscale was proposed in Celine Township. And that was when you asked, when do we know? That's when I knew. That's when whoever said it, the torches and pitchforks came out. And it was, you know, no hyperscale. And then that brought into Lansing, no small scale, no nothing. So it had reverberations or things that were perfectly fine and done in the correct way. Well, we, and we think so. I mean, I think so, but certainly others would disagree. And I don't want to speak for others, but we think that we had done everything that, I mean, we were, they were paying for community benefits for what we call pennies for power. They were paying for all the infrastructure. They were building infrastructure, giving it to us.

• 10:02Kara Swisher?

  We said, you know, on day one, we said, you will never get a tax incentive from us. This was not AI, this was cloud based. But again, like what you said, this is pitchforks and torches. And people came here and said, we don't want it here either, even if it's a smaller scale one, we don't want to hear either. And it's done that we pay for it. So the anger had shifted. I want to get into the disclosures of public officials that Alina was just talking about in a second, but let's level set. Hyperscale data centers, facilities that house computing infrastructure for companies like Google and Microsoft existed, as you noticed, for 20 years. But the AI boom has led to accelerated investments in a new wave of data centers that are much larger. Logan, give us some context. How are AI data centers different in terms of size and resources they require and their environmental impact?

• 10:46Speaker 07

  I mean, what we're seeing now is a really fundamental difference in scale and the technology has changed and shifted. And so we've had data centers for a long time, cloud computing, whatnot. But the amount of compute that you need to train these AI models is at a different magnitude. But really, you know, there's a fundamental difference in scale. And so there's two kinds of data centers. Typically, there's big training data centers and these have massive loads. They're incorporating all this information, huge, huge compute needs, but they don't necessarily need to be, have immense redundancy because they're training and they're learning. And then there's inference data centers where you need to have, you know, you tap in a chat on your phone or a computer and it needs to respond really quickly.

• 11:31Speaker 07

  And those need to be really responsive. They typically need to be closer to population centers, wherever you're doing the queries from. And so there's two different kinds. And it used to be that data centers were pretty small on the order of like 10 to maybe 50 megawatts of power consumption. And now we're starting to see hundreds of megawatts, even gigawatts of data centers being proposed. It's just a completely different order of magnitude at the size of these compute facilities and the energy consumption.

• 12:01Kara Swisher?

  And the larger footprint, correct? The larger footprint itself. So Erin, this year, as you noted, you launched the crowdsourced map tracking data center built out across the US. A common complaint you're hearing from what I understand is a lack of transparency around the projects. And a recent New York Times investigation found that secret meetings and deals were essential to Meta's giant $50 billion Hyperion data center in Louisiana, which I think that was the first that got a lot of attention. Talk about what's driving the secrecy around data center projects and how tech companies, developers and local officials are able to keep these projects under wraps for so long.

• 12:34Speaker 06

  You know, that's an excellent question that, that everybody's asking, you know, there has not been, and I've taken in 16,000 submissions, each one of them states, and these are multiple counties and cities in every single state, that it was done under a shell corporation. It was done in total secrecy. They feel absolutely blindsided. They had no idea anything was coming at all. And this is across the board. And, you know, I tend to follow the hard evidence from the people and on the ground and the data that they're reporting to me and the probability, because that usually never lies.

• 13:18Speaker 06

  And so I was astonished at the NDAs. And I've watched kind of an arc as this moves and we get deeper and deeper into this. The water and the electricity was always there, but the NDAs, they don't understand why, they don't know how this happened. When the public opposition showed up and Logan was talking about that, and that was one of the first real significant public oppositions that we saw out in Utah. And then the ground swelled, everybody was showing up. We didn't have a seat at the table. How did it happen?

• 13:53Kara Swisher?

  Why the NDAs from your perspective? Why this, is it security? Is it that they don't, competition? What is the excuse they give for, especially the public officials?

• 14:04Speaker 06

  I think public opposition. I think that they just came in in the dark of the night, like the people say, and created these organizations. Because if this had been transparent and upfront, you would have had the public opposition upfront. But because you just kind of slid in, I think that was one way. It is like a gold rush. And I don't know what their limited timeframe is, but they had to do it that way to either protect themselves, get something through, which they knew they would not get through if the public knew.

• 14:38Kara Swisher?

  Alina, you're in Virginia, which has the most data centers in the world. I don't know if people know that, but you mentioned this earlier, but last month, a court ruling stopped this massive digital gateway from moving ahead in Prince William County where you live. Considering Virginia is already the home to all these hundreds of data centers, dig down more in this project and your strategy for pushing back, because it has welcomed data centers. It's been a big part of development there.

• 15:02Speaker 00

  Well, sure. I mean, we have this great, you know, incentive. The data centers don't have to pay state tax. So the rest of us are paying the tax subsidy for them. So the digital gateway was the first project after the Amazon campus was exposed. And we fought Dominion Energy and we had our elected leaders actually start saying, they couldn't even say the word Amazon. That's how specific the NDA was. They couldn't even say the word Amazon. So the digital gateway was the first time we saw data centers move outside of the overlay that we had created, modeled after Loudoun County. And what was shocking was that there was no concern about the amount of water. There was no disclosure.

• 15:47Speaker 00

  So while there is a lot of discussion about how much water, I don't know how we can discuss it. They're not required to disclose it. So how do we know how much water they're using? It's not just quantity, it's also quality. So when you build this kind of impervious surfaces, Logan, you'll understand this, in a drinking water supply watershed, what you do is you limit the amount of groundwater recharge, and then you have the surface water runoff. And then you have the most important national park in the entire country. And what is shocking is that there's also no disclosure about power. The part of the conversation that's being missed about what our biggest concern is, the risk to the grid.

• 16:26Speaker 00

  Just last week, we had an event where three gigawatts of power jumped off the grid because a data center, I don't know how many, removed themselves. So imagine you're on a seesaw and one of you jumps off. Well, what happens to the other one? The reality is that this industry, the national risk, is really what is happening to our grid. And that event on July 22nd almost brought down an entire grid from Virginia to Chicago. What is happening is not just about in my backyard. What is happening is a risk to every single rate payer and every single person that relies on affordable, reliable energy.

• 17:11Speaker 00

  And so the digital gateway is a microcosm of what is now happening across this entire country. And all the coalition works to do is expose and demand transparency, oversight and accountability. And without that basic process implemented everywhere on a statewide and national level, every American is at risk. And it's not just about my backyard and my investment, it's about this country.

• 17:35Kara Swisher?

  Right. And your strategy is to get that idea out, that it's not just, oh, it's that you have this nice farm in Virginia and you want to make sure your refrigerator doesn't go down. So Andy, as mayor, I think you have tried to be open, transparent about it, but you supported the construction of a data center in downtown Lansing, Michigan. It was proposed by Deep Green, a UK-based company. The data center would have been for cloud storage, not AI. But the project, as you said, faced public opposition, is not moving forward. Talk about what you learned from the experience. And you were trying to do it in what could be considered the right way and still ran into stumbling blocks. Because in a lot of ways, which I have said this on my podcast many times, the data centers

• 18:15Kara Swisher?

  are a proxy for anger over not just the abuse of power, the abuse of billionaires of getting what they want. It has to do with corruption that people feel and the worries about AI at the same time. So it's sort of become the vessel because it's a physical manifestation of those things. And the negative is some of them are good to do, right? For economic development for your area in Lansing. Right. And to address kind of some of the things that have come up, you know, yes, there are concerns about water. We had those concerns in the beginning and we told them closed loop, this is going to be closed loop. So they were using about the same amount of water as the Wendy's across the street was going to use. That was important to us. We didn't want them sucking out of the Grand River, which is, again, we didn't want them taking the water. Explain what a closed loop is very briefly. They use-

• 19:00Kara Swisher?

  A closed loop system where they use in essence the same chemical, it's called glycol, and they use that to power all of it. It's a sealed closed loop. Glycol is the same chemical we use at our stadium for the beer distribution. So it's a, according to our folks, that this is, it's, this is a fairly easy chemical to use. But again, the, the water that was-

• 19:20Speaker 06

  Projected was less than our auto plants, was less than our battery plant, way less. It was about the same as the fast food. So again, we wanted to make sure we were not taking water out of our aquifer, our power. The proposal was at the northern edge of our downtown in empty parking lots right across the street from our water treatment facility right by our highway. They had committed to our noise ordinance. They were basically urban infilling. They were going to do art and murals and things like that. It was small. It was a 24 megawatt, so it was small. It was within the whoever said, you know, the 10 to 50. So there was a lot of that. I didn't sign an NDA. I wasn't asked to sign an NDA. The only reason I can think of that someone would want an NDA is if there's some kind

• 20:05Speaker 06

  of proprietary technology, but I did not get asked, nor did I sign one. Now, we do, when we do economic development, we work with businesses all the time. I work with developers. I work with businesses. They come in with pretty crazy asks sometimes and we narrow them down to what we think is right. And then we announce it to the public. We bring it to our economic development boards. We bring it to council and it gets full public vetting before it goes anywhere. And that's what happened here. We work with them. They wanted to be in our hard downtown and we said no, more because it was a, it would become a dead spot. It's not an active retail, so it'd become a dead spot. So we told them, go to our northern edge, go into this empty parking lot. We would have gotten a million dollars in return on equity. So yeah, we put a lot of requirements on them.

• 20:46Speaker 06

  But the question that you asked originally, and I am, I believe this to my core is that, you know, this was rejected here in Lansing, which is okay. That's, that is exactly the political process. We think they're going to go to Indiana or Illinois, who is going to have none of those requirements, who are just going to take them in. So we, we think it's going to be a negative, a negative to the environment because we were going to put all these requirements on and others won't. So that's, that's my, one of my bigger concerns.

• 21:12Speaker 00

  It's really important about the closed loop because I, it's actually, it is a problem.

• 21:17Kara Swisher?

  It is.

• 21:17Speaker 00

  And the closed loop, it is not just, you use it one and done. It has to be flushed. And when it is flushed, what happens is those chemicals, those fire sites that are used to clean all the, the chips come through that. And if we haven't read about what's happening in Wyoming, a meta campus is responsible. They traced it back, Aaron, you, I mean, you obviously know, they traced it back to the meta campus. So the closed loop is not the panacea that it has been, been told. And my question is for the campus in Lansing, what is the backup generation? Every data center campus needs backup generation. What is that, Mayor?

• 21:57Speaker 06

  Again, our generation was going to be, they were going to generate what they could from the fuel cell and we had eight megawatts reserved for them. We have excess power because we have a municipal utility and we can, you know, this, the city works, controls the municipal utility. It's not consumers, it's not DTE. So our, our utility had reserved in essence, power for the max generation. We didn't think they were actually going to do 24 megawatts at, you know, naturally. We thought they would do again, 16, 18, but at a high peak, we had the power ready for them from the grid, which was available. Again, we weren't going to, you know.

• 22:33Speaker 00

  They don't have backup diesel generators. That's what I meant. They don't have backup diesel generators. Okay.

• 22:37Speaker 06

  No, not at all. Nope. This was, this was straight fuel cell, non combustion. We would not allow that. I didn't know where you were going with that. So sorry. We have not, it never even came up. Diesel generation never even came up.

• 22:48Kara Swisher?

  Right. Go ahead, Darren.

• 22:49Speaker 06

  So on the closed loop, I'm really glad we're having this conversation. And Elaine, exactly what you pointed out happened in Cheyenne is one issue with closed loop, but there's another, and Logan might really want to jump in on here because the closed loop system is kind of a paradox to the engineers. I call it kind of an illusion because if they don't have the open evaporation systems, which is where they're using more direct water, we go to the closed loop system, which actually is going to end up consuming more water offsite because you need the electricity for all these closed loop systems. And now you've created a bigger problem. So there's two issues with the closed loop,

• 23:34Speaker 06

  but it's presented to people as, oh, it's closed loop. You're going to be using less water. In actuality, you're going to be using more water offsite. You're going to need the Duke energies of the world. You're going to need the P G D's of the world, the utilities, the nuclear, the coal to provide all the electricity for these closed loop systems.

• 23:57Speaker 07

  One of the biggest misconceptions that, that I found as the Stratos data center conversation was starting to ramp up and reporters were getting really interested in trying to understand the issue is there's actually two water stories. One is the water of consumption of the data center itself. But then the other one is the water consumption of your energy generation. And usually folks, the data center developers will just talk about the water consumption of the data center itself. And they'll say, oh, it's closed loop. We're not using very much.

• 24:25Kara Swisher?

  Right. Let, let's ship, I was just about to shift to water. Data centers require vast amounts of water for what's known as evaporative cooling. A 2024 report found that most existing data centers use this method. Logan, you estimated that Kevin O'Leary's proposed Stratos project in Utah would use 16.6 billion gallons of water a year to operate the gas turbines. O'Leary recently said that he is prepared to significantly reduce the size of the proposed 40,000 acre project. Break down this water use for people to understand and how does Stratos compare to other water intensive projects? And we know golf courses use too much water. We're aware of that in places like Utah where water is already scarce. So Logan, if you could go through that. And full disclosure, I call Kevin O'Leary a moron almost on the daily. So just full

• 25:08Kara Swisher?

  disclosure. I think he's the greatest face you could have for this because that means none are ever going to get built. But you don't have to say that. I can say that. Logan, can you explain that? Like how big this is and break down the water use?

• 25:21Speaker 07

  Yeah. So again, the Stratos data center proposal here in Utah, it has many of the similar elements. It was under the cover of night. We had this extra dynamic where we had this special quasi governmental organization that was signing off on it. But when it came up and when it started to hit the, the public awareness, I started looking around for, oh, what is their plan? What are, what are they actually planning to do? And there, there was no details. It was the, the level of detail was we're going to build a hundred percent natural gas, non gigawatt data center, which is insanity. Because I mean, the entire state of Utah uses about four gigawatts total at our peak. So it's more than double what the entire state of Utah uses.

• 26:05Speaker 07

  So I just said, okay, well, if there's no details, I, you know, the people are screaming for details. They want to know like, what does this actually mean? And so I said, okay, what are the two most common types of natural gas power production? And there's two different dominant technologies. There's more out there. There's boutique technologies that are getting deployed at small scale. But if you're looking at building a non gigawatt data center, you're going to use like whatever the dominant technologies are. So the first option is combined cycle turbines. Those are the most common kind of utility scale power generation. And they use evaporative cooling for the power generation. And that's, again, this is in addition to the data center itself.

• 26:46Speaker 07

  And that's what would take, if you were to build non gigawatts with combined cycle turbines, that's where it would take 16 billion gallons of water. The problem with that is, I mean, there's lots of problems with that. There's lots of trade offs depending on what technology you use. But there's such a rush to gas right now that those turbines are backordered five to seven years. So they're not available right now. And so what's happening is all these data centers are pivoting to this other technology called reciprocating engines. And they basically look like a diesel locomotive powered by natural gas. I mean, some of them actually are diesel, the backup generators are diesel, but they also make natural gas versions of these. They consume less water. It's still, a non gigawatt facility would take 2 billion gallons

• 27:28Speaker 07

  of water per year, but they emit tons, they're way less efficient in terms of their combustion. So they emit tons of nitrogen oxide pollution that contributes to ozone and particulate matter and.

• 27:39Kara Swisher?

  This is what's happening down in Tennessee.

• 27:41Speaker 07

  Exactly. And so there are real trade offs there. And, and this is just the water consumption from the power generation. This is in addition to, you know, whatever water consumption there would be from the actual data center campus. And I think one of the really big flashpoints in Utah is the, the location where they were planning to put this is right on the north shore of the Great Salt Lake. And if you know anything about Utah, you know, the Great Salt Lake is having troubles. We're using too much water and there's a major effort across the state. There's tons of awareness on reducing water consumption. Everybody, farmers, cities, everyone's being asked to conserve water. You know, don't water your lawn. We're in a drought. We had the worst winter snowpack as a function.

• 28:26Speaker 07

  Of climate change and natural weather variability. And so everyone's being asked to conserve water, especially in the Great Salt Lake watershed. And then, you know, this data center is getting this kind of like free pass with these backdoor deals, going to consume a massive amount of water. And so that just really, really ignited.

• 28:44Kara Swisher?

  Furiated people.

• 28:46Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 28:49Kara Swisher?

  We'll be back in a minute.

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• 29:32Kara Swisher?

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  But what is fiber? How could one nutrient do all those amazing things? And how can you get enough? Is a powder you stir into some water going to do it for you?

• 30:39Speaker 02

  All that plus the strange tale of the gorilla poop obsessed father of cornflakes in the latest episode of Gastropod. Find Gastropod and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.

• 30:53Kara Swisher?

  So Erin, you've reported increased turbidity and cloudiness in the water where data centers being built in addition to loss of water pressure also on top of that. What is the sense of what's causing these and whether these effects are limited to the construction phase?

• 31:08Speaker 06

  That's a great question. So, you know, I've been watching the arc from proposal stage, which we've talked about. And the main thing is the complete lack of transparency. And then all of a sudden, construction starts and it's during that construction phase that you start hearing from people, whether it's I've got a trickle of water, whether I've had to re-drill a well because my well water went too low, too turbidity. So depending on like, if you have shallow water, you're going to get a lot of turbidity and discoloration. And so we're now during this construction phase, we're getting into the noise, the disruption,

• 31:49Speaker 06

  the water issues, the lack of water, consistent water, dirty water, water you can't drink, into electrical, they're getting power outages. It flickers on, it flickers off, to the huge, huge disruption. And to watch it, it's, it's almost like really violent. They're just destroying the trees, the habitat, and then all the way to up and running. And when they're up and running, this is where we hear so much about this 24/7 noise. So it's kind of an arc. And so during the construction phase, that's where you're starting to get so many reports of different water issues.

• 32:34Kara Swisher?

  So data centers require continuous power to operate. Virginia recently passed an energy consumption tax on data center operators. They'll pay 11 cents per kilowatt hour of electricity used and the tax is capped at $600 million a year. Not sure why it's capped. Elena, how much of an impact do you think the tax will have on electricity costs in Virginia? And Andy, would something similar be effective in Michigan? Elena, you go first.

• 32:58Speaker 00

  So the tax really won't have much of an impact. What would have had an impact is had they removed the incentive. What will have an impact is a rate care pace right, right now before the SEC, based on the Haymarket transmission line. I just want to, I appreciate this conversation, but I really, I just want to interject one thing, if you don't, if you don't mind.

• 33:18Kara Swisher?

  Sure, please.

• 33:18Speaker 00

  So here's, here's what people should be paying attention to. Virginia is your future. Why are we still fighting for Virginia? Because there's still plenty left to save. What is happening in Virginia is literally the canary in the coal mine. We are running a 21st century industry off coal that's coming from transmission lines all the way from West Virginia. And on days where there's too much stress on the grid, they are running on diesel generators. And it's not about NIMBY. It's about a very basic principle of a democratic process that has left us out. And instead of ensuring that we have clean air and clean water, we want to make sure that this industry can function no matter what the cost.

• 34:00Kara Swisher?

  Right. So even, even in your point being that even if you paid more, we shouldn't let them even pay more because it's not worth the cost.

• 34:08Speaker 00

  Here was the perspective of the coalition of why making them pay this particular cost allocation was critical in 2016. If they have to pay for their own stuff, you better believe they'll innovate. Because I give this example all the time. Somebody drops you off at a CarMax and they say, the world is your oyster, pick whatever you want. You're probably going to pick the Ferrari. But if they say, hey, you have to cover the cost to your own car, you might pick the Ford Fiesta. And right now they're picking the Lamborghini off our dime and it's time they pick the Ford Fiesta. They have to innovate.

• 34:40Kara Swisher?

  You're making an excellent point. So you don't even think that more taxes is what's needed? Andy, can you respond to this? Do you think that having these energy consumption taxes? You're saying, Elena, it's not good enough. Andy, how do you respond to that?

• 34:53Speaker 06

  I mean, I think one of the biggest concerns that I hear is, you know, I don't want my rates to go up for a business that is going to be making a lot of money. And again, we, we said that's not going to happen here, but certainly if, if they're going somewhere and there is a federal tax and it's, you know, throughout the country, because right now we're getting picked apart state by state. And that can reimburse consumers or pay consumer bills. I do think that would help to alleviate at least some of the concerns. Now, there are other concerns, you've heard them here and I get that. I think there are concerns that could be shared about a lot of different industries that put, you know, pollution into the air and into the water. And focusing just on data centers ignores a bigger part of what's going on.

• 35:36Speaker 06

  But I think that ensuring that people are not being required to pay more for an industry that can certainly pay their own. Again, when they came to us and said, you know, we want to talk about incentives, we said, not a chance. You guys are cash rich. There is not a chance you're getting an incentive and you're going to pay to make sure that our poorest folks are getting energy help, which was our Pennies for Power project.

• 35:58Kara Swisher?

  Let me bring Logan in. A recent Goldman Sachs commodities research report found that the US data center power demand is forecast more than double the 66 gigawatts in 2027 from 31 in 2025. Put that energy use into perspective, Logan, and the stress it increases on the grid. And aside from all these other deleterious effects, and in order to meet energy demand, some companies have built onsite power sources that are separate from public utilities. For the Stratos project in Utah, you calculated that a nine gigawatt natural gas power plant would produce around 35 million metric tons of carbon emissions a year. And I'd love to understand the first question and then how significant is that to Utah's air quality and emissions as a whole?

• 36:42Speaker 07

  Yeah, I mean, this is an enormous increase in electricity production, if, if it comes to pass. And I think there's also a good possibility that this is, we're in a hype cycle and the AI data center bubble will burst. As, you know, as soon as you put a dollar amount on compute efficiency, all of a sudden, some clever engineer figures out how to do something more efficient. You actually, it's actually funny. I've seen a number of articles back from the year 2000, when the internet was first blowing up and we thought, oh, we'd have all these, you know, internet servers everywhere. They're going to consume all this power. And then what happened? Energy efficiency was this massive push.

• 37:27Speaker 07

  And we've actually been able to keep energy load growth through more efficient lighting, et cetera, you know, largely flat in this country for a long time, even as we've been growing. And so.

• 37:38Kara Swisher?

  We did get all that bad social media stuff that made our girls feel bad and our boys addicted to porn, but go ahead, go ahead.

• 37:44Speaker 07

  Yes.

• 37:44Kara Swisher?

  That's another, that's another show.

• 37:46Speaker 07

  That's a separate problem. That's more of like, should we be doing it in the first place? But if this low growth. Does come to pass. That is a massive build out cycle for our energy system. Now, one piece of the conversation is our energy system needs to be upgraded. There are so many things that need investment. And so there is a possibility, if this is done the right way, with transparency, with public input, that, you know, these cash-rich entities could make investments. And I'm talking about advanced transmission technologies, like reusing the current right of way to put advanced conductors that can put more energy through the lines.

• 38:30Speaker 06

  If they go through with this one, the quality of air and the emissions are staggering for Utah.

• 38:35Speaker 07

  Unhappening. Yeah. Yeah. And to put it in perspective, you know, the entire city of Utah has like 65 million metric tons. So this one facility would increase Utah's total greenhouse gas emission, total CO2 emissions by like 50%. Now, the other thing that isn't accounted in that is upstream natural gas leakage. Natural gas is not really natural. It's actually methane gas. Natural gas is about 95% methane, and methane is a really potent greenhouse gas. It's about 80 times more potent than CO2 on a 20-year lifespan, which is what we all care about. And it turns out that there is an enormous amount of methane leakage in upstream oil and gas production facilities in Utah and Wyoming.

• 39:18Speaker 07

  It's something like 5% of the gas that comes out of the ground just leaks into the air.

• 39:25Kara Swisher?

  Aaron, what were you gonna say?

• 39:26Speaker 06

  Well, you know, Logan is talking about the huge load on one system. And if we're going to build out 1,200 to 1,400 or more of these across America, you're talking about a load that I do not believe our antiquated infrastructure can handle.

• 39:48Speaker 00

  So I participate in what are called these terrible, they're called the Prince Wind Energy Engagement Group. They cannot reconductor. They were supposed to reconductor the massive transmission line that goes to the Van Assis National Battlefield. And within one year, they said, we cannot afford to have any planned outages on this line because it will bring down the system. Your transmission line infrastructure is like your highway. And right now, that highway is clogged. And what we are building is an entire infrastructure for one industry. What happens when that industry innovates? And we have built out petrillions of dollars worth of infrastructure that they don't need anymore. Who is the one responsible for that? We have to pause, and we have to have a plan.

• 40:30Speaker 00

  And I'm just going to tell you, if you want to see your future, look at Virginia. They're not doing it any different because if they could, they would.

• 40:41Kara Swisher?

  We'll be back in a minute.

• 40:54Speaker 02

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• 41:25Kara Swisher?

  We get an expert outside question in every episode. Here is yours.

• 41:29Speaker 06

  I'm Beth Macy. I'm a reporter and author who's running for Congress in Virginia 6th District. Data centers have become a huge issue in my rural agricultural part of the state. In fact, opposition to them seems to be the only thing that's bringing Republicans and Democrats together lately. So I guess maybe that's a healthy thing for our democracy. Eh. Many people from big tech, the business community, and even some of our local governments say that data centers and AI are inevitable. So don't worry. Everything will be fine, you Luddites. I disagree. I think we need guardrails about who pays for the utilities, the water usage, and the environmental impact of data centers, not to mention protection from the looming catastrophe that AI promises for our workforce.

• 42:12Speaker 06

  I think AI is going to make what NAFTA did to factory workers look like child's play. So I'm asking you guys, what kind of guardrails can we place against data centers and AI? What kind of federal legislation can protect our jobs, our young people, and our land and water from a handful of billionaire, kooky man babies who want to be trillionaires?

• 42:33Kara Swisher?

  Okay, that's good. I like Beth. What a great book she wrote. Aaron, why don't you go first, and then Logan, Andy, and Elena to answer Beth's question? Obviously, as you were pointing out, Elena, it's a bigger issue than just this. But Aaron, you start.

• 42:47Speaker 06

  Oh, yeah. It's every issue, and it's everyone's issue that's at stake. It's the water, it's the electrical grid, it's the cost of utilities, it's the noise, it's the air pollution, it's the loss of our land, our sanctuary. It just feels like a full-on assault. And see, at a local level, they're the ones in charge of zoning and permitting, is to have oversight. I know that states, we have 14 states that are now going to start looking at, you know, state legislation and oversight. And yes, federal, this is an absolute runaway train. And it is probably one of the biggest conversations that I've ever seen

• 43:30Speaker 06

  in my 30 years in my career. That is political, it could be bipartisan, everybody's going to have to be involved. I am perplexed, Cara. Why are leaders don't listen to the people? And there is a movement happening and a shift that I don't think these big tech companies or giants saw coming.

• 43:58Kara Swisher?

  Go ahead, Logan.

• 44:00Speaker 07

  Yeah, I mean, we need demand, we need data centers to have demand flexibility so they're not adding to our peak load at the most critical times. So they're not putting additional stress on the grid. They need to pay for their own infrastructure, and they need to socialize and like pay for upgrading the whole grid is really what they should be doing. And that we really need it to be, you know, bring your own clean energy and storage. This is an opportunity to actually build out and develop some of the emerging technologies. So, and a great example of that, that's, I think, a major opportunity here in Utah is, and across the West, is developing geothermal energy. And so pairing solar with geothermal, there's enormous opportunities there. And, and we can have data centers help to, you know, drive down the cost

• 44:43Speaker 07

  so that energy type can, can displace other kind of firm generation. It can be clean firm generation, which our grid needs. And it has to be transparent reporting and public engagement. The Utah Foundation, it's one of the, the groups here in Utah, they do an annual survey of voter priorities. In 2024, their number two issue that they ranked was politicians ignoring voters. And this perfectly encapsulates politicians ignoring voters, this issue around data centers. And then the Stratos was just like this massive example of that. And one of the big political fallouts here in Utah, I mean, politicians are not immune, are the, the president of the Utah State Senate lost his primary election.

• 45:27Kara Swisher?

  Yeah. Well, I'll get to that in a second. Yeah.

• 45:28Speaker 07

  Yeah. It's a political earthquake. He's, he's one of the most influential legislators here in Utah, and it was not close.

• 45:35Kara Swisher?

  Andy, speak to that. Are you worried about your job?

• 45:39Speaker 05

  No. I just won reelection in November, and I knocked 10,000 doors. First, let me say, I, I agree with the guardrails. You know, I have actually had conversations with the climate mayors and the Sustainable Cities Coalition, and they've asked me, what are the guardrails you were able to get? And they've got documents that say, put these guardrails on. It's everything you've heard. You know, water, electric, making sure they pay for it, maintenance. We haven't even talked about maintenance, heat capture, customer benefit, things like that. That is absolutely, that should be on everybody's to-do list. I don't care who you are. But, you know, I, I knocked 10,000 doors, and you don't want to know what people want to hear about? In Lansing in Michigan, and in Michigan, taxes are too high, costs are too high, roads stink, and potholes, public safety, and too many guns on the street.

• 46:22Speaker 05

  I got a few, you know, data center, environmental, I did get a few of those. But when politicians listen to people, they listen to all of the things, all of the things. It's not just one thing. I can't just focus on one thing. And this is part of it. So when we, when we said, you know, what we're doing with, you know, whether it's high manufacturing, the new battery plant that just came in, auto manufacturing, the proposed data center, all of these things, we talk about benefit that's going to help out for taxation so we don't have to raise taxes. We talk about building housing. We're building, you know, new housing units, affordable and reg, and market rate. So I disagree. I think politicians, not everybody, right? Not everybody is the prince. But I think politicians do listen to constituents,

• 47:04Speaker 05

  but they have to make decisions. And when you talk about the studies, you know, I, I tell everybody this. Politicians or public officials or a mayor, you have to make decisions. We are decision makers. And when you decide for somebody, they're like, of course you did. I'm right. And when you decide against somebody, they say, you suck and you're not listening to me. So we really lose no matter what. But that's the job. The job is to listen to people and then make a decision for what you think is best for your community. And you know what? If you tell enough people that they're wrong, they're going to vote you out of office. So that's, I mean, that's politics.

• 47:38Kara Swisher?

  And they're doing that.

• 47:39Speaker 05

  And, and you know, in some areas, they are, and in some areas, they are not. We can certainly point to a few places where they are, but I can point to a lot of places where they're not. And that is the same system we have always had.

• 47:50Kara Swisher?

  All right, Elena?

• 47:53Speaker 00

  So let me just share a little story very quickly. When this fight began in 2014, I was on the general assembly floor with the most socially conservative Republican in the entire, you know, delegation. And, and somebody said, oh, my God, hell has frozen over Bob Marshall and Elena Schlossberger hugging. And let me tell you, as much as this industry is tearing communities apart, it is also bringing people together at a time when things have never been more tribal or toxic between the two parties. And that has been our superpower. And as far as decision makers, I have had a board of supervisors sit in front of me and say, I'm the decision maker. She didn't care about the facts. She didn't care about the science. She didn't care about the risk to the grid.

• 48:37Speaker 00

  She didn't care about the overall impacts of what was happening. And in my community, you can't get elected unless you are on the right side of this issue, because it's not just about NIMBY. I say this all the time. I just want to leave this one quote before, if I am not for myself, who am I? If I'm only for me, who am I? And if not now, then when? This fight is everything. It's about every single conservation easement in the state of Virginia. It's about transmission lines. It's about dirty diesel generators. It's about coal. It's about everything people care about.

• 49:09Kara Swisher?

  Which I think is true. But I think the mayor has a point. People are also concerned about this and this, like the ability to be nuanced has been lost in our society.

• 49:18Speaker 00

  When your, when your utility bills are doubling and you're in one of those communities that is a demographic that can't afford it, you suddenly care, because now your utility bill is as expensive as your rent or your mortgage.

• 49:29Kara Swisher?

  Yes, I, I would agree. In June, Republican primaries in Box Elder County, which I think was what you're referring to, some pro-stratus data center candidates lost elections, also shaping out to be a national issue in the midterms. At the same time, opposition is sometimes characterized, as you said, as hyper-local and NIMBY-driven. What's interesting to me is the point you made about the tech companies don't know. I've had meetings with all of them, and, well, I wrote a book called Burn Book, which was somewhat critical of them, very critical. And they thought it was too mean. And when I went to see them, I said, I don't think it's mean enough. I think people hate you. Like, I think you're going to see a hatred growing towards you. And they're like, they don't hate us. I'm like, no, they hate you. And you'll see as more and more happens.

• 50:11Kara Swisher?

  And what was interesting is just recently, suddenly, a lot of these tech companies have called me, they're like, it looks like you're right about them hating us. I was like, now they hate you more. Like, I don't know what to tell you, because you've done so many horrible things. But talk about when they try to blame it on NIMBYism or what's happening here. Maybe each of you talk about how it's affected politics. And by the way, it's against the backdrop of President Trump signing an executive order to speed up federal approvals for AI data centers and energy infrastructure. And the Energy Department announced last week the Trump administration is repurposing federal land to host massive data centers. So that's happening. Why don't, Andy, you start, given the federal government's efforts to accelerate it, to what extent can you rein it in?

• 50:55Kara Swisher?

  And then the others can comment on that.

• 50:57Speaker 05

  In terms of reining it in, again, I think we can set local conditions.

• 51:02Kara Swisher?

  But not if they put it on a federal land?

• 51:04Speaker 05

  I mean, zoning generally gets left to locals, with local citizens being able to make that decision at a planning commission meeting, which is made up of citizens that are appointed or, you know, elected. So I think that that's, I think, remaining a local decision, where you can throw out your mayor and council members for whatever decision they make, you have recall, you know, one of the things that concerns me, and you know about this, is the, the Trump administration is proposing putting federal bureaucrats in charge of making decisions at the federal level for grants and other things like that, without actually looking at the, the actual science or the, you know, the, the conditions. And I, I've been pretty critical of that. I think leaving it local, but, you know, and I know you had asked, kind of, what's

• 51:48Speaker 05

  the, what's the impact? I think that, I honestly think that those that care, that have made this their, their issue, have formed a block. And I've seen a ton of that.

• 51:58Kara Swisher?

  So Elena and Aaron, first, if Trump is going to give away federal lands to do this, there is no stopping it, for now at least.

• 52:07Speaker 00

  So let me just preface this with, actually, let's make this very clear. It is a bipartisan issue, both on the side of responsible development and oversight and irresponsible. It doesn't matter whether you're blue or red. I see it in both ways. President Biden, on his way out the door, was the first one to pass an executive order to allow federal lands to have data center infrastructure. And so what President Trump did was he just simply, like, I mean, lit that on fire. Right now, in Prince William County, I'll read you the headline. Prince William Forest National Park Land Swap Considered For Data Centers. There's no local oversight. This is federal land. We can do nothing.

• 52:49Speaker 00

  All we can do is impress upon the Secretary of the Interior that if this happens, you will start to see, I think, such a backlash against Republicans, that is more than what is happening now, because this issue unites everyone and it does matter. You know, fighting data centers and talking about energy and water and grid infrastructure, let me tell you, not the sexiest thing. But when it comes to your utility bills, it really matters. This, as much as it has risked democracy, let me tell you something, democracy is what is saving us right now. It is people coming together, using their voices to expose the rot, and not caring if it's their own party. And we, you talked about oversight, I think that was the question.

• 53:31Speaker 00

  In the state of Virginia, in January, we have a very truncated session, and for, this will be year number five, we go, we ask for legislation. Last year, we got some through. It's about transparency, it's about accountability, it's about regulation, and it's about holding them accountable. There are ways on a statewide level, and we're going to continue to try again.

• 53:50Kara Swisher?

  Okay, all right. So Aaron, very quickly, on if the feds put them on these lands?

• 53:56Speaker 06

  Well, it's, it's very concerning, and you are starting to see that happen. And I do know, we probably all do, that Senator Sanders is definitely looking at more federal oversight, and I don't know if that kind of, if we can get some of that passed, could slow back Trump's decision on federal lands, but it gets pretty dicey. And Andy said it, this is very much local issues, very much state issues, and it is concerning that federally, Trump would just come in and take over those lands. So it's, it's, and it is, it's a bipartisan issue, and, you know, Elena is correct, there's going to, there's going to be some type of backlash here politically, and I, I hear

• 54:40Speaker 06

  it state by state, Texas is really chiming up out there, that this is going to be enough game changer for people to switch parties.

• 54:49Kara Swisher?

  Okay, so I want to end on talking about data centers done right, because they're going to come, this is going to have, they're going to have some of them, but how to do it correctly, I'd like to end on. A recent report from Brookings Institute argues that data centers can become sustainable engines of local economic growth, but only if communities move away from development model defined by, quote, speedy deal-making and opaque negotiations, which we've been talking about here. OpenAI has a proposal for so-called AI economic zones that are, quote, "created by local, state, and federal government together with industry that significantly speed up the permitting processes for building AI infrastructure like new solar arrays, wind farms, and nuclear reactors." I know Sam Altman is particularly interested in nuclear reactors. Kevin O'Leary has said, quote, "Sustainability is at the heart of what we do in terms of

• 55:34Kara Swisher?

  these proposals," which is not accurate. But talk about what has to happen here, where a data center is a genuine value add for the people who live there. I'd like each of you to address it, and any of these ideas, whether it's OpenAI, so these AI economic zones, or using nuclear, or if you had to be pushed and say, okay, we're going to have a data center, if you were running the show, each of you, what would you foresee? And you could foresee in the future, too. Like, it doesn't have to be what exists at this point. Let's start with you, Logan, and then Andy and Elena and Aaron.

• 56:08Speaker 07

  Yeah, I mean, this is what we've been trying to communicate to folks. Like, let's have a positive vision for how to do this responsibly, if data centers are done responsibly, and they actually pay for their own infrastructure and help to actually drive down costs of the infrastructure for other folks. You could actually see Energy, electricity costs coming down because you're having a big load that's helping to pay for a lot of the costs that are usually socialized across ratepayers. And so it is possible, but you need people who are ratepayer defenders, who are engaged at the Public Service Commission, understand these issues and understand how to structure the tariffs so that data centers pay their fair way, or more than their fair way.

• 56:52Speaker 07

  And there has to be demand flexibility. You know, often our grid is built to supply energy at the peak times, when everyone's turning on their air conditioner and when it's the hottest out, right? You have to have enough capacity to serve those, and it's really just like 10 to 20 hours a year that our energy spikes up to be the highest level. And that drives enormous amount of costs. So if they can just turn off, curtail the load during just a few hours of the year, they could actually not add to the peak load that our grid has to serve, which is a big driver of costs. And again, this is an opportunity to build nuclear energy. There's a lot of discussion about nuclear.

• 57:35Speaker 07

  It's interesting because, you know, it is a carbon-free form of energy. There's a lot of health concerns with it. We still haven't dealt with the waste. But the biggest problem with nuclear energy is it's always a decade out, and it's five to six times the cost of anything else. And so it's kind of, it's used as kind of a distraction for other technologies that we have available today, which is wind, solar, batteries, and geothermal. And geothermal specifically fills the same kind of clean, firm generation profile that nuclear would. And we're seeing some, some of the very first next-generation geothermal projects are coming online this year, actually in a few months here in Utah, and there'll be a few more in the West. And so it's a really exciting time.

• 58:19Speaker 07

  People should be talking about geothermal, and nuclear is just really not a part of the equation because it's not economic and it's not timely.

• 58:26Kara Swisher?

  All right. Andy?

• 58:28Speaker 05

  I mean, I think I've talked quite a bit about kind of the list that we've come up with, but we've talked about water and making sure water is preserved. I live in Michigan, right? 20% of the fresh water in, in the world is right here in the Midwest in the Great Lakes. You know, again, I love the closed-loop system, but I hear the, the issues. So I think that needs to be part of the conversation. Contribution to low-income energy programs. Again, if they're going to come in and they're going to do this, we want to make sure that people not only aren't being affected, but more people can afford to live. So I love that. You know, they have to pay to build it. Again, if they're cash-rich, they have to pay to build it. In our case, they were going to pay to build it and then give it to us to operate. For me, local decision. If the locals want to operate it, if they want the company to operate it, no incentives.

• 59:11Speaker 05

  And I, and I hold to that, you know, they don't need them. And I don't think that we should be giving them, you know, urban infill, zoning and location, you know, location. Again, we wanted to put ours in the northern part of the downtown. People didn't like that, and they got their way, and that's okay. But it's also industrial by right. We have an auto plant that closed in 2006. They may go there, which is the natural place for them to go. You know, we don't have farmland, so I can't comment on that. But I think there's a system that can be set up because, again, I think we're going to have them. I think there is a demand, and you'll say we'll get to it, for AI. I mean, when we had people come in and tell us the evils of AI, reading it from the AI on their phone, that, you know, there's a hypocrisy there.

• 59:54Speaker 05

  So you have to figure out what you need and how you get there.

• 59:57Kara Swisher?

  Right. Elena?

• 59:59Speaker 00

  So I just, I look at this and I reverse the equation. And the equation is not how do we meet this low demand? It is how do they demand less? Here's what a good AI data center build-out looks like. They're not relying on coal. They're not relying on diesel generators. They're not relying on gas turbines. They don't need all the chillers on top because they need to remain so cool. I mean, because that's really what this is all about, is their cooling. A healthy data center build-out is less. Because I'll tell you, campus four miles down the road from the at an intersection, 150 acres, two campuses combined, is about 1,000 megawatts, which is 1 gigawatt. That's enough for one nuclear reactor.

• 1:00:42Speaker 00

  The scale and cumulative impacts are beyond anything. It is unprecedented, and we need to slow down to understand, like, that, you know, that cart before the horse? I mean, that cart is like miles ahead.

• 1:00:54Kara Swisher?

  That's a really good point. Aaron?

• 1:00:58Speaker 06

  I'm laughing, Elena, because that's exactly what I was going to say. This conversation and everybody's points are spot on, but it's difficult to have because the horse has left the barn. And this is precisely, you know, I will talk about the corporations here, and I have seen them do this for 30 years, over and over again, expecting the same result. You never put safety and infrastructure on the upfront. You're always running something down the line for the money, to be the first, to be the best, to make more money. And if you would reverse that business model and do safety and infrastructure on the upfront

• 1:01:41Speaker 06

  before you let the horse out of the gate, you'll still yield a profit, but your long-term yields would be so much greater. And everybody that has been here today, I've loved this conversation. I could do this all day long. Points are well taken, and the horse has left the barn, and it's going to be very hard to get it back. And I do think that this time it's going to take local counsel, it's going to state, take state, it's going to take federal. But something that I think we have been missing for a long time is going to be a huge part of this change in conversation, and how you get that horse back in the barn, if you can,

• 1:02:26Speaker 06

  and how you move forward is going to be coming from the people.

• 1:02:32Kara Swisher?

  So this is my last question. Data centers, obviously, have wrapped up, as Andy noted, in a broader AI backlash. And for many people, it, as I noted, it feels like the facilities and the tech, they're being forced upon them. And I'd like to know from each of you, what's the most important thing that needs to happen to change public opinion, not just on data centers, but on AI more broadly and tech? I think the tech people have done it to themselves, which, you know, one of your, when you said safety, I had a line in my book saying, how can you understand safety if you never felt unsafe a day in your life? These are people who create things who aren't unsafe and then wonder why people of color or women are upset. This is about social media, because they never feel unsafe.

• 1:03:14Kara Swisher?

  The broad public opinion is very clear on this, and especially with young people around AI overall, and now data centers is another manifestation of that. At some level, it does cross over into probably not great for our future, right? Not to be part of the, of building things. And in industries, probably these discussions happened around railroads and cars and everything else. We've had this before, and as you note, Aaron, correctly, these companies never change. It's just the type of company it is. It's the same people doing the same nonsense. What's the most important thing that needs to happen to change public opinion on the topic? And so I'd like first Elena, and then Andy, Logan, and Aaron, you get the last word on what could be done to change the public's attitude?

• 1:03:59Kara Swisher?

  Because right now, it's deeply negative, I would say. And it should be somewhere in the middle, presumably.

• 1:04:04Speaker 00

  I don't know. I think that's a great question. I wouldn't presume that it should be. I think that there is a place for technology, and right now, it's like we're at Caligula's drunken fest, and everybody is partaking with no thought of consequences. And so I believe, I trust people. First of all, we're smelling it, we're feeling it, we're seeing it, we're tasting it. Something is broken, and I see it with my kids, who actually reject a lot of the AI slop.

• 1:04:38Kara Swisher?

  Mine, too.

• 1:04:39Speaker 00

  And I think that what has to happen is a more mature conversation, which, you know, is not happening right now. So I actually, I don't know. I, I think that the conversation, the difficult conversation that's happening now needs to happen, and if it's uncomfortable, good.

• 1:04:54Kara Swisher?

  That's a really good point. Okay, Andy, next?

• 1:04:58Speaker 05

  Sure. You know, I think, Kara, you made some good points, that this has happened before. And I think a lot of that, knowing my history, is unchecked commerce, right? So what did we do in the past? We didn't just suddenly trust the auto industry. We didn't just suddenly trust manufacturing. We said five-day work week. We said occupational safety standards. We said, you know, these are things that for us in a union state created the unions. These are the important pieces that got us to, this is a positive because it's jobs and people are getting paid and the cars are coming. And I think that's what we've been talking about is, you know, what are the guardrails? What are the guardrails to make sure that we can have this tool that I do think is

• 1:05:43Speaker 05

  going to be part of the future, but have it responsibly? And to all that being said, what does that mean? It means you got to build trust. And I think you're hearing this here from Elena and Aaron and Logan and you, and there is not trust. And I think you and I talked about this. You asked me, do people not trust the local government? And I said, I think they do trust the local government. They don't trust the companies to do what they're promising. So I think it's building trust. And how do you build trust? Carrot and the stick. You know, the carrot is you tell them this is what you have to do for people to trust you. And the stick is, these are the guardrails, and you will comply with these guardrails, or you won't have a business, and somebody else will comply with the guardrails, and they will win the day. And you would ask, you know, before, what's the rush?

• 1:06:26Speaker 05

  These folks are all telling local governments that they want to be up in 18 months because the AI race is going to be over in 18 months. So you got to build guardrails, you got to do it with trust. And I think that would result in getting us the technology that we need as we move forward.

• 1:06:42Kara Swisher?

  That's a really good point. Logan?

• 1:06:44Speaker 07

  Yeah, so. I mean, I think what's happening, one of the, one of the dynamics is happening right now is with this current administration is really a smash and grab kind of environment.

• 1:06:55Kara Swisher?

  I call it a coin operated presidency, but go ahead.

• 1:06:57Speaker 07

  Right, right. Exactly. And, and that is, is going to lead to a massive backlash because it's destroying the social compact. And these companies, if they're smart, they need to figure out how to regain the public's trust. And really to do that, we need policy regularity. And really, I think the, the name of the game, kind of the, the key point is clear, fair rules aren't the enemy of growth. They protect responsible growth. And it's bringing the public into the conversation, making sure we can move forward together. Unless we're doing that, we're going to have all of this conflict and it's just going to blow up in their face because we have a democracy and that's the way it works.

• 1:07:41Speaker 07

  And it's not going to turn out well until we can get back to clear, fair rules.

• 1:07:48Kara Swisher?

  Yeah. Aaron, you get the last word.

• 1:07:50Speaker 06

  Well, everybody brings up such great points and, and listening to all of it, it kind of makes me think we're in between here, the Flintstones and the Jetsons. And the people have suddenly become the gladiators. And for all the forward progress we make, we're going to realize there's some things in the Flintstone days that we just can't do without. And that's jeopardizing our natural resources, our health and our welfare. And I think a lot of this will begin right at home and teaching kids about AI. So it's going to be a balance that happens in the home. It needs to be a balance that will

• 1:08:30Speaker 06

  happen politically. It will be a conversation and just this push all be all, um, almost takeover of a country. And, and believe me, this is not only here in America. This is a global issue. I have 10 countries reaching out now. So if ever there's been a moment where we can collectively come together on something, who knew data centers might be the one thing that unites us all.

• 1:09:02Kara Swisher?

  Interestingly, I think you are somewhat effective when they start talking about data centers in space. That's like, I'm just leaving. And we're like, go. Good for you. Godspeed.

• 1:09:12Speaker 06

  And it's a frustrating conversation. There are other options and there are other solutions. And we have clearly discussed that and why we have to do it this way. Maybe this will be the last time we learn the lesson, but I don't think so.

• 1:09:24Kara Swisher?

  I don't think so either. Anyway, I just did a recent series about medical stuff, about longevity, and some of the AI stuff is going to be groundbreaking. And so

• 1:09:32Speaker 07

  It is. Absolutely.

• 1:09:33Kara Swisher?

  That's what we have to focus on, the stuff that is useful for everyone versus just a small group of people who just want to become richer and stuff like that. But this has been an incredibly thoughtful conversation. I really appreciate it. And I'm glad we had the time to sort of debate different things and talk it out. And it's an ongoing issue. And so we'll have you back and maybe next year to see where we are.

• 1:09:53Speaker 06

  It's a great conversation. I enjoyed meeting everyone. Thank you so much.

• 1:09:58Kara Swisher?

  Me too. Thank you, everyone, for being so thoughtful.

• 1:10:00Speaker 07

  Thank you.

• 1:10:01Speaker 05

  Thanks, everyone. Come on out to Lansing anytime.

• 1:10:04Kara Swisher?

  Lansing. That's my next trip. Thank you, guys, so much for doing this.

• 1:10:13Kara Swisher?

  Today's show was produced by Nishat Kurwa, Michelle Aloy, Catherine Millsop, Megan Burney, Madeline LaPlante Doobie, and Kalen Lynch. Special thanks to Dave Shaw, Andrea Lopez-Cruzado, and Julia Sharp Levine. Our engineers are Fernando Aruda and Rick Kwan, and our theme music is by Trackademics. If you're already following the show, you're getting a solar powered, aesthetically pleasing data center in your backyard. If not, we're sending you to Elon's data center in space. Go wherever you listen to podcasts, search for On with Kara Swisher and hit follow. Thanks for listening to On with Kara Swisher from Podium Media, New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network, and us. We'll be back on Monday with more.

• 1:10:57Speaker 02

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