344: Modern Combatives. How We Fight, How We Train, How We Live. W/Dean Lister.

Dean Lister and Jocko analyze Military combatives manual and evaluate. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jocko Willink?

  This is Jocko Podcast number 344 with Echo Charles and me, Jocko Willink. Good evening Echo. Good evening. Also joining us tonight, Dean Lister.

• 0:08Dean Lister?

  Good evening.

• 0:08Jocko Willink?

  Good evening Dean. Dean Lister from Podcast 137. If you haven't heard that, go listen to it. Dean is a...

• 0:17Jocko Willink?

  Is it safe to say Dean's one of the greatest grapplers of all time? I have to ask Echo Charles. Is it safe to say that? It is safe to say that, yes. Like Jiu Jitsu World Champion. Is that accurate?

• 0:28Dean Lister?

  Yeah, Abu Dhabi was some, it's like the hardest tournament.

• 0:31Jocko Willink?

  Submission.

• 0:32Dean Lister?

  I won it three times, Super Fight, Absolute, and then my division. So I don't know. It's always relative, you know?

• 0:39Jocko Willink?

  Well, we could at least, at a minimum, we could say he's a good grappler. Yes, sir. It's safe to say he's a good grappler. I agree with that.

• 0:45Dean Lister?

  A few good days, a few good days.

• 0:47Jocko Willink?

  So, uh, good evening Dean. You know, you fought in a bunch of stuff. Fought in the Pride over in Japan, fought in UFC, and I thought it'd be cool to bring you on because we got some stuff to talk about.

• 1:01Jocko Willink?

  Speaking of the UFC, so the UFC kinda changed everything for martial arts. And, and really, I guess you go back to like Valet Tudo in Brazil and NHB in Brazil. But that type of unrestricted fighting advanced martial arts in a decade or two, more than it had advanced, more than it had advanced.

• 1:31Jocko Willink?

  In a very long time. But, you know, I was thinking about that. I was thinking about what you just said. And I actually think that's actually not true a little bit, and here's why. I think it actually brought it back to reality. Because if you went back to ancient Greece and looked at Pancreasian, right? Those guys and you, we have images of people doing Pancreasian. And they're doing Omopadas, they're doing Kamehameha, they're doing heel hooks, they're doing what we do. And Pancreasian, if you don't know what it is, it was in the Olympics, and I'm talking the old school Olympics. I'm talking 648 B.C. is when Pancreasian was introduced into the Olympics. And it was a combination of wrestling, boxing, kicking, joint locks, chokes. It was, in other words, an ancient version of MMA.

• 2:16Jocko Willink?

  But over time...

• 2:19Jocko Willink?

  Over time, things got separated. The disciplines got separated into boxing over here, wrestling over here, Muay Thai over here, Jiu Jitsu over here, Judo over here, Taekwondo over here, karate over here. And I was trying to think about why that happened. And I actually think I have a, I have a suspicion, we'll say, a hypothesis. My hypothesis is, you know how people generally only want to do what they're good at? Like, oh, you're good at bench press? What are we doing for a workout today? We're doing bench press? Or, oh, you're good at squats? What do you want to do today? Oh, we're gonna do squats. Oh, you're good at grappling other people.

• 3:03Jocko Willink?

  So you don't want, I don't want, you know, I'm good at boxing. I don't want Dean Lister grabbing hold of me and taking me to the ground. And I don't, something to make a different thing, something that I'm good at. And that starts to draw in all the people that are good at that thing.

• 3:17Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And over time, it seems like you just have these separate things. Now, whether that's the actual reason, I don't know. But everything got separated. And martial arts became siloed, right? Whereas just different sections.

• 3:37Jocko Willink?

  And then unfortunately, martial arts became theoretical. And it didn't take much time for it to go from theory to lies. And I know lies is a strong word, but if you go look at, uh, what's the, what's the Instagram? McDojo. If you go look at McDojo, those are lies. That dude posts, what's his name? Um, McDojo Life. McDojo Life. So if you go to McDojo Life, you can see people are teaching lies, actual lies to other people. And, you know, the lies are things like, oh, this one strike.

• 4:22Jocko Willink?

  Or my chi will prevent me from being taken down. Or I can absorb your strikes with my aura. Yeah.

• 4:30Dean Lister?

  You think it's a form of, I don't wanna say hypnosis, but like, what is it you think? Like that guy, is it like, oh, everyone else is doing it, so I guess I'll do it, I'll play along, or is it, do they actually?

• 4:41Jocko Willink?

  There's absolutely some kind of psychological, there's a psychological phenomenon that occurs. Isn't he making a movie about this?

• 4:48Dean Lister?

  Yeah.

• 4:48Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, like a good documentary, yeah. To explain, and I'm sure there's-

• 4:52Dean Lister?

  I'll be in that movie.

• 4:53Jocko Willink?

  That's awesome. Unit two, Echo Charles? Uh, no. Okay. So, McDojo Life is making a movie about it, but yeah, there's some kind of psychological manipulation that happens, where, oh, you point your finger at my sternum and I feel like pain and fall down. And the reason we know it's a lie is because plenty of people have challenged, like, oh, try that on me. Mother licker.

• 5:19Dean Lister?

  What's the story about you, you were at, I don't know about the SEAL base, but you were there and someone was like, yeah, you know, you put your finger in the collarbone and you're like, no. And he's like, yeah, it works. And he said, try it on me. And you double-legged him or something?

• 5:31Jocko Willink?

  No. Well, I had a guy saying that, like, they had a name for this, like, neck strike. And they were like, oh, if this is done, like, if I did this for real, you'd immediately be, like, paralyzed on the right side of your body and that would cause you to fall down. And then that would lead to my next move, which is a heel stomp to the groin or whatever, right? And so I was like, cool, do it to me.

• 5:55Dean Lister?

  He's like, no.

• 5:55Jocko Willink?

  And the guy's like, well, no, it's, you know, and I was like, do it to me, just do it. And it didn't, it didn't, obviously didn't work. Like, a karate chop to the neck.

• 6:03Dean Lister?

  But didn't he take one, like, second one, and the third one, he responded, heard that you retaliated?

• 6:08Jocko Willink?

  I don't even think I retaliated.

• 6:09Dean Lister?

  The word is that, the word-

• 6:10Jocko Willink?

  No, Jeff Higgs had a guy that said that he couldn't be taken down once he settled his chi.

• 6:16Dean Lister?

  You could root into the ground.

• 6:17Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, he would root into the ground. And he, the guy's like, you would not be able to take me down. And Higgs is, you know, what do you mean? And Higgs, if you don't know who he is, he's been on the podcast. He's a black belt in jujitsu. He's a former SEAL and a, and a good friend of all of ours. But this guy was saying, oh, you can't take me down. Once I settle my chi. I always, I always remember that's a good quote, right? Once I settle my chi, because it sounds like it might be a legitimate thing, right? Like, that's like, you just didn't make that up. That's, you, you, you've told that to other people. And so Jeff's like, okay, well, why don't you go ahead and settle that chi? And the guy goes through his little ceremonial thing and like, you know, gets in the horse stance. And Higgs is like, are you ready? He's like, yeah. And Jeff just like double legs and slams him on the ground.

• 7:02Dean Lister?

  Like, my toes were crossed.

• 7:04Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Uh, so there is some, when you get to that kind of McDojo stuff, there's definitely some psychological weirdness that's going on. But those lies were spread. And, you know, whether it was, you can't, you can't strike through my aura or the dimmock, which is, hey, if I touch you here, you're gonna literally die.

• 7:25Dean Lister?

  Die a few, a few days later.

• 7:26Jocko Willink?

  Which also leads to the, hey, I can't actually do this to you because I, I don't want to kill you and go to jail for murder. Okay? I would do it to you because you're making me mad, but I don't want to go to jail for murder. So I'm not going to do this, you know, dimmock to you. And furthermore, you know what? My, the reason you don't see these moves in competition because they're not allowed.

• 7:46Dean Lister?

  Jocko, many times as a UFC fighter, I had guys come to me and go, hey, you know, I saw your fight. You're a good fighter. You know, I'm a street fighter, Joe, you know? And I'm like, okay, but they had to like qualify that for some reason to me. I'm like, well, you know, okay, that's cool. You know, it's just, it's just kind of funny that someone thinks that maybe I've never been in a, a real life altercation outside, you know, also like, like I, I've, I've had my, that's why I look special, my face. I've been bit, I've been, I've been poked and whatever, and the else you can imagine. But it's like, um, yeah, those things, I would call them targets of opportunity or fighting dirty. But you can't replicate the eye gouge over and over, or you're gonna have, everyone's gonna have one eye, you know? So, so, um, I don't know. I just think it's funny that, that people think that despite all your training, if it's a street fight, like you have no chance.

• 8:31Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. If you could do an experiment where you took someone and just trained them in jujitsu and they never got in a street fight? And you went, they went against someone that was a quote, street fighter in the street? It's like, it doesn't matter.

• 8:49Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, the, so, so the training will transfer now. Look, could you pick up some bad habits? Where you do something in the street that take, now it takes you an extra two seconds to win? Because you, you shouldn't have done this specific thing. Cause you, yeah, you could do that. But that's like the tiniest percentage. If there's someone that's like, that's why I don't train, you know, cause I, I'm ready for the street.

• 9:17Jocko Willink?

  But going back to the storyline a little bit, this, these lies, which still exist today.

• 9:24Jocko Willink?

  In the seventies and eighties, these lies were just kinda like out of control.

• 9:27Dean Lister?

  Yeah.

• 9:28Jocko Willink?

  And they definitely got picked up in the military.

• 9:33Jocko Willink?

  I was looking through some old, uh, army, I looked through an old army hand to hand manual from 1982. So this is like in the heyday of chi.

• 9:42Jocko Willink?

  And it said this in this manual, no judo. You have probably already asked yourself, what about throwing and takedowns like in judo? We have purposely excluded throws and takedowns because throws and takedowns are normally only an intermediate step to taking your opponent out. After your opponent is thrown to the ground, you will probably still have to strike him to finish him. So let's just block his attack and finish him with counter strikes instead of blocking, throwing, then striking.

• 10:15Jocko Willink?

  It's like, that actually makes you think, well, you know, it's a good point. You know, that's a good point. You know, I'm not gonna, I don't wanna have to take someone down. I'll just take him out.

• 10:26Jocko Willink?

  This thing goes on to say that throwing puts you in a vulnerable position to throw your opponent. You must first grab him. This puts you close to your opponent and vulnerable to his attack.

• 10:34Dean Lister?

  Certain throws, yeah, certain throws.

• 10:36Jocko Willink?

  Oh, for sure. Well, theoretically, again, that's the problem with this stuff is theoretically. Especially if I say, listen, Dean, if I, you know, double knuckle punch your sternum, it's gonna cause you to have a cardiac arrest. So why am I gonna bother throwing you when I can just give you a literal heart attack? And you, and if you, if you said, well, why don't you show me that? I'd be like, cause I don't wanna kill you, bro. You just have to, but trust me.

• 11:04Jocko Willink?

  So, actually, what's interesting is, in that book, that, that field manual I was looking at, I, you know, I'm looking at the rest of it, and it has all these, like,

• 11:15Jocko Willink?

  their foot patterns, and it looks like these dance moves to like, avoid and like, strengthen your power, and it's just a bunch of nonsense, to be honest with you. But, like I just said, if this stuff is getting taught by some authoritarian figure, and you can't really test it in any way, and, you know, this is someone that's, you know, a 38-year-old, who's talking to an 18-year-old recruit that kinda wants to believe, by the way. Because most people are like, "Oh, you're giving me a special power, I'm gonna take it. I'm not gonna question you," and that's probably what leads to some of the, uh, weird McDojo Life-type scenarios.

• 11:57Jocko Willink?

  So this, to me, this is like, the low point of martial arts in history, in my, in my opinion. This is the 1970s, the 1980s, and look, I get it, some guys were doing the best they could with what was available, and, good on them, I know some of those guys. Remember Dr. Mick? Dr. Mick was one of those guys, and he had a whole crew of guys, like, in the 70s, they did everything they could, to the extent that they could do it. And, and there was also some guys that were awesome back then, Judo Gene LaBelle. Like, no one can question the effectiveness and the efficiency and the awesomeness of Judo Gene LaBelle, 50, 60, 70s. But as a whole, if you look at commercially,

• 12:41Jocko Willink?

  that time period was pretty rough for martial arts. And then the UFC came. And the UFC brought the truth. And with that, everything changed for the better. I'm taking notes, by the way. This is good stuff. Everything changed for the better.

• 13:00Jocko Willink?

  What's your, what's your, what's your notes? Do you have any so far?

• 13:02Dean Lister?

  Well, I wrote a few things down. I just think we'll get into this, but it's an old saying and I'll butcher it probably, but oh, there we go. Something like hard work achieved without payment or without sacrifice is something you shouldn't trust. So the quick way to get this quick knockout without learning how to box or the quick way to get the flying submission or the steam cigar neck break without learning to grapple, you know, it, it seems good, but it doesn't work, you know, um, trying to get in shape without, without working out, you know, you know, if you just get like, like implants in your biceps, like, like you. Yeah, bicep implants, yeah, those arms aren't gonna work. Exactly. Yeah, I'm, I'm sorry. I won't say it on the internet.

• 13:45Dean Lister?

  It's private. Uh, but you know, these kinds of things are shortcuts. Um, you know, become a millionaire tomorrow without, without even have a business plan. You know, this is, I'm saying that's an interesting idea. So it sounds good. And I think if someone trained a lot in boxing, kickboxing and wrestling, you know, you could do that stuff. If you're training all these, these disciplines, I think it's interesting. That is something that I think it's imperative to get into. I ask you this, Jocko, it's a, it relates to what we're talking about right now. I had a, I had a zoom call with like 12 marine officers. They called me, it was a colonel. They called me, they were, they were always, I don't know, captains and lieutenants. And they were talking about, you know, cause they had fought, I guess they saw me compete in Brazil, talking about my, my training patterns and whatever.

• 14:30Dean Lister?

  And they were saying how, how it could relate to the military. And I said, well, and this is something I know it's stepping a little out of my, my realm. But I, I mentioned something, you know, seminarian training, of course, you talk about that. And that's not combat, but that's closer to combat than bang, bang, bang, you know, and, uh, I know the argument, they don't go through walls and they're not as realistic, but you get, you get a sting, you got, you got hit. And they were like, no, there's, yeah, that's closer to a gun battle than laser tag or something like that. What, what's the, what's the old system that would, that would be?

• 14:58Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, there's an old system called Miles gear, which is a laser tag system, and they have more advanced laser systems, which are actually really good now. Uh, and, and yes, that's a very, those are great training tools. And sure, are there some little things about using those systems that are not accurate? Yes, but just as you said, it's closer.

• 15:17Dean Lister?

  So if you're getting ready for, I don't know, even a life in that situation, I, I would rather trust the person who has trained 10 years in, in a struggle where they've, they've dealt with adversity. They've been in, they've been in panic situations and then calm versus someone who, I don't know.

• 15:33Dean Lister?

  Let's say is open to more dirty things, but has never practiced it in real life. Then again, if someone has actually been through life in that situation and used it, that's, that's good, I guess, but I think it's important to find that training medium. So gloves, matter of fact, I guess I should wear more gloves when I train. Uh, but you know, if you don't wear gloves, your hands get stronger, but you can also hurt your hands. So gloves have a place, but then again, you can't rely upon big gloves in boxing. You have, you have small, you have no gloves and you know, you can't cover up the seam. So I think it's important to find that happy balance, that medium between hard training and realism.

• 16:07Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Yeah. And that's what, what the UFC did, and really jiu jitsu is a huge part of this is you can train full speed, right? You can go hard and, and look, you can spar in boxing and you can, in wrestling, you're, you're going live against other people, but when you take that and put it together into martial art, jiu jitsu was like bringing that forward and boxing did it, wrestling did it, jiu jitsu does it, Muay Thai does it, but who didn't do it was like Dim Mak and the old kind of weird traditional martial arts that didn't actually do anything, except for a theory, except for theory.

• 16:45Jocko Willink?

  So as, as the UFC happened, we started to see this in the military and people in the military started learning and testing and started to move the military combatives to a much better place. And one of the leaders in this is a guy named Matt Larson. I don't actually know him, but, uh, everybody kind of knows him. He's a former marine, former army ranger and he's. I think he's pretty much known as the father of modern army combatants. He's the one that started to train and formalize and kind of push this well-rounded approach, realistic approach to hand-to-hand combat.

• 17:28Jocko Willink?

  And eventually, his work, and look, I'm giving one person all the credit right now. I'm sure he would talk about all the people that helped him get there. But this is the person that I know of that was involved. And like I said, I'm sure there's many more people, but he certainly was a spearhead on this. And his work and whoever he was working with at the time eventually became an army field manual, an army field manual, 3TAC25.150 Combatants. And I thought today, maybe we could take a look at this manual, go through some of the highlights, discuss how it can be applied. And not only can it be applied to how we fight, of course, but also how we train and how we live.

• 18:13Jocko Willink?

  So there you go. Let's take a look at this manual, Combatants. Picture of a dude with a freaking K-bar on the cover. Gotta love that. Here's the overview. The overview to kick this thing off. It says, "Combatants training stands apart from the vast majority of martial arts training in that producing the individual's actual fighting ability is of primary concern. The mental and physical benefits of training gain their worth from usefulness in producing more capable soldiers." Now, I'm not 100% sure I agree with that opening statement, only because it says, you know, combatants training, the main thing about combatants training

• 18:57Jocko Willink?

  is that you're trying to improve the fighting ability of the person. Doesn't all jiu-jitsu and boxing and Muay Thai try to make you a better fighter? I'm not, I must be misreading that or something, but that's what we're trying to do, is make someone a better fighter. I guess I'll go with it. Purpose: Combatives. The art of hand-to-hand combat bridges the gap between physical training and tactics. The products of a good physical training plan, strength, endurance, and flexibility, must be directed toward the mission. And soldiers must be prepared to use different levels of force in an environment where the intensity of a conflict changes quickly. Many military operations, such as peacekeeping missions or noncombatant evacuation, may restrict the use of lethal force.

• 19:41Jocko Willink?

  Combatives training prepares the soldier to use the appropriate amount of force for any situation. Okay. So that's, that's always good. And you know, sometimes people ask me, "Have you ever used hand-to-hand?" And they, they, they actually think my answer is going to be no. And they think that most people would never use hand-to-hand, but it actually is very common to use combative, combative techniques in combat. Why? Because you're dealing with civilians, you're dealing with unarmed people, and you can't just run around shooting everybody in a semi-permissive environment, or even in a wartime environment. You, you see someone that's not armed, or you enter a building, there's a male, a female,

• 20:23Jocko Willink?

  a kid, that doesn't have a weapon, you, you have to contend with them. So combative is very important to have as a skillset, to handle, you know, actually, when the person, when the enemy has a gun, it makes everything easier. You kill him, you shoot him, done deal. No factor.

• 20:44Jocko Willink?

  What'd you write down, Dean?

• 20:46Dean Lister?

  Couple of things about the origin of martial arts and how, how some things have shaped regionally, just a little before. But also, I was mentioning one detail, I saw someone from one military service of one country. I won't, don't want to get too specific, but I saw the person teaching, his, his knuckles right here on his hand, like he's a boxer with big gloves. If you do that with no gloves, your own hand will cut your face.

• 21:11Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 21:11Dean Lister?

  So things like that, they're teaching the recruits, I'm talking to like 200 people in the class. It was one of our services, I won't say which one. And teaching people to hold it like this, and I'm saying, well, even in boxing, I wouldn't do that, but with big gloves, it makes for a city, you can see over. That right there is someone who actually has never been punched in the face with, with, without gloves on. Teaching that to 200 people at a time, I'm like, I didn't, I didn't correct them. I would, but you know, he's actually, he's having them like this, I'm like, you know, at least want to be here, or maybe. It's just interesting that that person teaching people how to punch with no gloves on, probably is every punch in the face.

• 21:42Jocko Willink?

  And he may be a skilled boxer.

• 21:44Dean Lister?

  Yep, absolutely, yeah.

• 21:45Jocko Willink?

  And he's probably, may, may have been punched in the head, you know, while he had his, while he had his cover up. And you can realize you can absorb, you've got their big glove versus going into your big glove, and it absorbs. You take those big gloves off, you punch right through that person's hands.

• 22:02Dean Lister?

  So that is a little bit, we're looking at a sport, boxing, which is great, I love boxing, but if you do not alter that part, by the way, not every boxer does this, I'm saying this person, some boxers in the corner, you cover like this. If you don't alter that rule, that would actually cause you to get a lot of damage in a fight, because this also, you don't cover much of your face with this, well, these little hands, the same, but with, without gloves. So that's an example, I was just trying to say how we're looking for the happy medium, because we are dealing with the military, not boxing, and not wrestling. It's actually a military application.

• 22:31Jocko Willink?

  Yep. Uh, it goes on to say here, combatives training includes arduous physical training that is mentally demanding and carries over to other military pursuits. This training produces soldiers who understand controlled aggression and remain focused while under duress. That's awesome.

• 22:47Dean Lister?

  That's true.

• 22:48Jocko Willink?

  Right, so when you get good at fighting, it's going to help you stay calm in other situations. That, that's an awesome aspect of training. It, you process the skill, the skills requisite to the mission at levels in all the spectrum, in all the levels of spectrum of force. So you're going to learn how to control different scenarios. Have attributes that make up the warrior ethos, personal courage, self-confidence, self-discipline, and esprit de corps. That's huge. It's so good for people to know how to fight. It's just so good for people to know how to fight. You actually, when you know how to fight, you become less arrogant.

• 23:28Dean Lister?

  Yeah.

• 23:29Jocko Willink?

  You might be, you might, if you're 20 years old, you might, you might have a spike in your arrogance, right? Echo Charles, you smiling at that one?

• 23:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, there are exceptions, we'll just say that.

• 23:39Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, where you get a little spike in your arrogance, but over time, you'll realize, okay, I'm, the reason I'm good is because I trained more and guess what? There's someone that's trained more than me and that's the way it is. So.

• 23:50Dean Lister?

  Yeah.

• 23:50Jocko Willink?

  Generally speaking, it'll help your self-confidence while at the same time preventing you from becoming arrogant.

• 23:56Dean Lister?

  Yeah, you get beat up so much, you have to be calm, you know?

• 24:00Jocko Willink?

  I mean, it's humbling, man.

• 24:01Dean Lister?

  Yeah.

• 24:01Jocko Willink?

  It's humbling. You remember the first time you tapped me out a hundred times in the gym? When I first showed up, I was a young SEAL rolling in there, thinking I knew how to fight, didn't know jack.

• 24:14Dean Lister?

  Jock would, when he would tap you, he would just tap.

• 24:19Dean Lister?

  No expression on the face, just. Let's try it again.

• 24:27Jocko Willink?

  So it's humbling, especially, what were you, 17 or 18 when we started training? 19 years old. You were 170 pounds.

• 24:34Dean Lister?

  Yeah.

• 24:34Jocko Willink?

  And I was like 220. I was a grown man. You were a kid. And I'm like, this poor guy, I'm gonna smash his little head.

• 24:47Jocko Willink?

  Throughout modern history, attempts to build successful combative systems have failed or have been met with limited success. This has happened for several reasons. Quite naturally, commanders desire a system that doesn't require any training time to learn and maintain. So that's a real problem out of the gate. People think, well, you know, I saw, I saw a thing where you can just learn four deadly moves and you'll be good to go. Why don't we just use that, bro?

• 25:07Dean Lister?

  Something to talk about, exactly.

• 25:09Jocko Willink?

  Four deadly moves to end any street fight. The commander's like, hey, I think we should just learn. I saw those four deadly moves. Why don't we just focus on those? That way you don't have to spend a bunch of time.

• 25:18Dean Lister?

  There's a guy, he actually has, it's like a, it's tagged in like YouTube. It was like, um, ex-army ranger, um, plus 10 years of bouncing experience, has won over 500 bar fights. Never been hit in the face once, by his system. I'm just like, I'm gonna check it out. Just, just win every fight in three, four seconds, just whatever. Now, there's ways to surprise people. There's ways to look over there and hit someone. There's ways to have your friend. There's all kinds of tricks, uh, to trick, you can trick someone out in public, but I don't know. Just, it's just funny how this, this get strong, quick, with no sacrifice game, get rich quick. That's what I was saying earlier. I don't know. It's kind of like, um, not the future.

• 25:57Jocko Willink?

  Yep. Yep. It's, it's gonna take some time. Uh, continue on. Further training has often been conducted by experts in civilian martial arts. These experts use training methodologies that are designed for more civilian hobbyists than realities of war. That's exactly what you were just talking about with the boxing gloves, right? Oh, I'm a great boxer. I'll teach you how to box. Cool. But I'm not wearing gloves. Now I'm breaking my hand. Now I'm getting punched in the face when I thought I was covered up. It's like that, there's the issues. Often, combatives training has been approached by allowing a soldier versed in a civilian martial art to use a limited amount of training time, usually during another course, to teach a useful technique. Blinded by their civilian training, the trainer demonstrates what the trainer thinks are simple, effective, and easy to learn techniques selected by, based on situations.

• 26:41Jocko Willink?

  Soldiers may find themselves in a tactical niche of the specialist training. The trainer teaches the soldiers these techniques, but due to the limited amount of training time, the soldier quickly forgets them. The soldiers quickly forget them. To overcome these tendencies, a combative's training system must be based on certain principles and then maintained. So, this was another thing I ran into that in the SEAL teams. Like for a while, the SEAL teams was using this system where one of the, one of the, one of the best benefits of the system, claimed by the people that were pushing the system was, hey, This system that we're being taught only takes five days to learn.

• 27:13Dean Lister?

  Yeah.

• 27:14Jocko Willink?

  So, and meanwhile, some people are talking about becoming, you know, using more mixed martial arts based systems when those things take years to become an expert. Why would we do that? You know, it's sort of like seven minute abs, right? You're like, hey dude, I'm not, why do all this cardio weightlifting? And diet and all this stuff, I can just do seven minute abs and I'll be good to go with the abs.

• 27:37Dean Lister?

  Six minute abs.

• 27:38Jocko Willink?

  Six minute abs.

• 27:39Dean Lister?

  I'll sell you.

• 27:39Jocko Willink?

  Oh yeah, you outsold me. So, so don't fall for that, that, that idea that, oh, the reason you should use my system is because it's faster.

• 27:50Dean Lister?

  Yeah.

• 27:51Jocko Willink?

  It's not a good, it's not, it's not real. Cause you're not going to become a good fighter in five days. Could you learn a couple fundamental moves in five days? Yes, you absolutely could. You absolutely can, and they could save your life.

• 28:04Dean Lister?

  Yeah.

• 28:05Jocko Willink?

  You know, you could, you could, you could, your life could be saved by knowing some fundamental moves that you learn in a five day period.

• 28:15Jocko Willink?

  But are you going to be well versed? No. Are you going to forget those moves? Yes. Are you going to know how to react when there's a variable involved? No. So there is no easy, quick solution to be good at fighting. It doesn't exist. Could you learn, you know, three dynamic moves that if you're a bouncer in a bar? And you're going against some drunk guy that doesn't expect it and you do these moves? That'll probably work a lot. But what happens when that dude drops in and does a double leg on you, you know? Or squares up and is like a skilled fighter? It's going to be a problem.

• 28:51Jocko Willink?

  So here's the, here's the principles that they recommend. Systematic training, foundation, continuous training, competition drills, live training, integrated training, combat feedback. Cool. What'd you write, Dean?

• 29:02Dean Lister?

  No, that's what I was going to say, like a kind of funny story. Like we're talking about weight loss. So, you know, let's say when I go through my weight cutting phase, you know, I'll lose like 15 pounds in, I don't know, 10 days. And then I'll cut water weight, which is, it's really unhealthy, but it's really, really bad for you to do that. But, you know, cut 33 pounds in, in, you know, 12 days, whatever you were there with me on that. But so we go, how, how do you lose that much weight in two weeks? I'm like, well, it's not sustainable, you know? I'd be honest, it's not the secret. You could do that, but it's a miserable life. It's hard to do and you can't do it forever. And remember, remember Sarge, when he tried to cut 50 pounds in a week? And he had the look of death in his eye. So Sarge, he lost like 25 pounds, right?

• 29:44Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 29:45Dean Lister?

  Cause Sarge, Brian Sarge is a good friend of ours, ex SEAL, but he, he actually, I think was trying to lose 40 pounds or something like that.

• 29:51Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, he went, and, and look, Sarge is about as hard as they come. As far as like just being like, I'm gonna finish this thing, whatever it is. He's, he's up there in the top echelon of I'm not gonna give up on this thing.

• 30:05Dean Lister?

  And it was almost Walking Dead, almost Walking Dead.

• 30:07Jocko Willink?

  I mean, and I, I remember I showed up at the gym and I saw him and he'd already, he was like,

• 30:14Dean Lister?

  This sauna.

• 30:14Jocko Willink?

  He, you know, he was done.

• 30:16Dean Lister?

  Yeah.

• 30:16Jocko Willink?

  He was like, he was like, yeah, I was cutting. And he goes, he looked at me and that like dead serious look. He's like, I was gonna die soon.

• 30:24Jocko Willink?

  That was his assessment. He was like, he was like, yeah, he goes, I got down, I go, he goes, I cut 38 pounds and whatever. And he goes, and, uh, and then I got to a point where I was gonna die soon. So, and he's a, he's a corpsman, he's a medic, he's a, he's a independent duty corpsman, which is like the highest level of, and you know, a special operation.

• 30:41Dean Lister?

  Little surgery.

• 30:41Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. So he's just like, he's like, yeah, I was gonna die soon. That was his assessment.

• 30:45Dean Lister?

  So I was trying to tell a story about one of our bros, but it's just funny, it's funny in a sadistic way, but even Sarge would laugh at it too. He has, he has a good sense of humor, our type of humor. But, uh, so there is a way to lose weight that fast, but it's not sustainable. It's not healthy. Plus you have to know what you're doing and then you have to know when to do it correctly. And then you also get in trouble. So, so weight loss. How about quick way to lose weight? Yes, it's possible, but it sucks. It's miserable. It's not sustainable, but you can actually get on a sensible diet, get in a consistent workout routine. And you know what? You could lose, let's say two pounds a week. You could do that consistently. You know, you can, you can actually have energy and be fine. You'll be hungry, but you'll, you'll be fine. Um, but it takes discipline, right? Discipline. So I'm talking to this, learn it and I see what they're saying. It sounds marketable, but as I was mentioning earlier,

• 31:30Dean Lister?

  the quick fix way to get around things in training is usually not the best way.

• 31:33Jocko Willink?

  You're gonna have to put in the time, people.

• 31:37Jocko Willink?

  And this is exactly what they say here. This next section is called systematic training. Learning to fight is a process, not an event. To be effective, combatants training must be part of a system. Until soldiers learn techniques that form the system's foundation, they are unprepared for follow-on training. Shortcuts or teaching soldiers what they need to know is counterproductive. Much as advanced tactical training is counterproductive if a soldier has not first been taught how to operate his weapon. Army combatants training must be based in a system that both lays a foundation of abilities that soldiers take with them wherever they are assigned and is flexible enough to fit the wide range of specialized missions soldiers are asked to do. So it's the same thing that we're talking about. Continuous training.

• 32:21Jocko Willink?

  Combatants training must not end upon graduation from a training course.

• 32:27Jocko Willink?

  And this is, by the way, everything we're saying applies to police officers as well.

• 32:29Dean Lister?

  Yeah. Unfortunately, a lot of, a lot of cops, they don't have any more training after they get out of the academy.

• 32:34Jocko Willink?

  It's horrible. Or they get three hours a year or four hours a year.

• 32:40Jocko Willink?

  So, training has to be continuous. It can't end when you graduate. For soldiers to develop their abilities, the majority of training must happen outside of the institutional training environment. So that's, think about that. The majority of training has to be outside what you learn in the schoolhouse.

• 32:56Jocko Willink?

  Units must develop their own combatants programs to spur troops to involvement, encourage commanders to invest resources. So there you go. Competition. Competition is the principal motivational tool used to spur combatants training. Competition should be not only used to encourage excellence by giving soldiers a chance to be unit champions, but also to make fighting ability an integral part of soldiering. So if you're not running some competitions, you're not going to get people to train. And look, can you get someone that's like, hey, I'm just dedicated. No one might need it on the job. Sure. But how many of those 20-year-olds that we're talking about is going to be like, dude, are you going to do the, are you going to do the brigade competition? See who's got it? See where you're at?

• 33:39Jocko Willink?

  And by the way, what about you're doing the brigade composition? So you might want to like train so you're at least ready for you so you don't look like a jagass.

• 33:48Jocko Willink?

  Talks about drills. You know, you gotta do drills. Live training, live training involves training against a fully resistant training partner, which approaches the reality of combat. This is what you were talking about earlier, Dean. There are many methods of live training. Each has its own strengths and weaknesses. Therefore, leadership combines several approaches to ensure proper training. Integrated training. Combative engagements do not happen in a vacuum. They happen as part of a mission. So, give soldiers the tools they need to successfully complete their missions. Combatives must be an integral part of the training. So, that means you can't just make it an isolated, okay. Like, you know what a red man suit is? Red man suit is like the guy you can punch because they're wearing like a big padded outfit.

• 34:30Dean Lister?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 34:30Jocko Willink?

  Well, you need to integrate that into a random part of a regular mission. A regular training mission. You can't say, oh, today we're doing combatives only. No, you need to walk into a room and there's gotta be some person in a red man suit just ready, ready to throw down. And you gotta deal with it. And you gotta see how it affects everyone else in the room and how many people it takes and how it slows down the assault force and all that stuff. That's integrated training. Combat. What'd you write down, Dean?

• 34:56Dean Lister?

  Just different things. I was, I was just, I had random stories. I was gonna say, remember this, even people listen to this, you know, yeah, yeah, but the, the pretty lie is more appealing than the ugly truth. You know, so the ugly truth is, it's not really ugly if you get into it, you get into the sport, it's not so ugly. Or maybe that is the beauty of it in a way. But the pretty lie is always still appealing. I have a 40, I have a 40 course for you, you know, you're guaranteed to win every fight. That's still appealing to most people, still is, even though we're seeing this. And I, I just hope that people listening to this, it's not, well, it is, it can be torturous, but it's something that lights a fire under your ass, your butt every day as far as you wanna train more. I can get sick of jujitsu for one day and next day I'm fine. I'm back into it for some reason.

• 35:41Dean Lister?

  You can say, give it like, man, the next day you're like, okay, well, you know, I'm back to it.

• 35:45Jocko Willink?

  Well, you can definitely have a rough day on the mat.

• 35:46Dean Lister?

  Yeah, yeah, that's true. It, it's just that we're talking about work, repetition, drills, competition, all this stuff. It seems like a lot to do. It is a lot to do, but. I mean, this is the ugly truth. You know what I'm saying? So that's just why I was writing down just that the pretty lie is still appealing to people that are listening to this right now. The pretty lie is still out there. It's still something that people are going to be tempted by.

• 36:06Jocko Willink?

  Yep. And, and the pretty lie, you want, you want it to be true.

• 36:10Dean Lister?

  Cause it's easier.

• 36:11Jocko Willink?

  You want it to be true. That's how, uh, get rich quick schemes work, right?

• 36:15Dean Lister?

  Yeah.

• 36:16Jocko Willink?

  People want to believe that a mere $1,299 investment now, when you learn these skills.

• 36:24Dean Lister?

  It's true. Choco, I wanted to believe that you could lose 18 pounds of water by being in a, in a, in a Epsom salt tub in half hour. I wanted to believe that.

• 36:34Jocko Willink?

  It was not true.

• 36:35Dean Lister?

  No, quarter pound.

• 36:36Jocko Willink?

  Have you ever missed weight?

• 36:38Dean Lister?

  No, no, I was made weight.

• 36:39Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 36:40Dean Lister?

  Yeah, I was made weight.

• 36:41Jocko Willink?

  Man, you suffered a few times.

• 36:43Dean Lister?

  Yeah. I have big bones. I don't know. It's not fun.

• 36:46Jocko Willink?

  Big bones and pizza, bro.

• 36:50Jocko Willink?

  Dude, a couple of times it was like, all right, let's check your weight. Oh, you're 28 pounds over and you got to fight in six days. Hmm.

• 37:02Jocko Willink?

  How's that pizza tasting? I hope it was good.

• 37:06Dean Lister?

  Now you get it paid.

• 37:09Jocko Willink?

  Combat feedback. When soldiers engaged are engaged in hand-to-hand combat, they acquire new information about combatives. These lessons must be captured and analyzed so the combatives program evolves to fit the needs of soldiers. Through combat feedback, the following lessons have been learned and it goes through every fight is a grappling fight. Of course, this does not mean that there is no striking. Every fight also involves striking, but always as integral part of, as an integral part of grappling. Every fight is over weapons. Control of this element will most likely determine the outcome of the fight. There's no shortcut to developing a fighting skill. The combat feedback thing, this is something like, even when I was trying to move naval special warfare more towards

• 37:53Jocko Willink?

  a mixed martial arts view. And some people would be like, you think, you know, you, you just think it should be jujitsu? And I'd be like, no, actually I don't just think it should be jujitsu at all.

• 38:05Jocko Willink?

  And in fact, and this was the most important thing I tried to say was it shouldn't be closed. It shouldn't be a closed, it shouldn't even be a quote system. It should be an open, learning, continuous, learning, evolving thing that we're always getting better at. And that way, there's things that work and they work now. And maybe if in the future, we have a different type of body armor that is more dynamic, or it takes up more space, or it's heavier or lighter, whatever, like things are going to change. Or the way you sling your weapon now, or a different radio you got to carry with that causes something or a helmet, like there's all kinds of things you gotta make adjustments to.

• 38:40Dean Lister?

  You grab a plates on body armor plates.

• 38:42Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah.

• 38:43Dean Lister?

  Cause the plates get really, they get really in the way, let's say.

• 38:46Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And there's certain things that, yeah, there's certain things that might not be optimum with plates.

• 38:52Dean Lister?

  Yeah.

• 38:53Jocko Willink?

  And so, okay, well, what adjustments are you gonna make? And maybe a new set of body armor comes out, like you could put something called side sappy plates in, which now you have plates on your side. And how does that inhibit your movement?

• 39:03Dean Lister?

  You find this ridiculous, Jocko, with the, with the front plate and the back plate. And I had the belt on with, with, you know, whatever, I don't say, just, just tough on the belt. And I set up and guard and and I, I had a little, I was a little weight, a little heavier back then. And the front plate pinched my, with the belt.

• 39:20Jocko Willink?

  And you tapped out.

• 39:24Dean Lister?

  Come on, I can't sit in my guard the same way with, yeah, body armor is just different than you can.

• 39:29Jocko Willink?

  So there's, you gotta watch out for that belly fat.

• 39:31Dean Lister?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, you gotta lose the weight. No, it's no problem now.

• 39:33Jocko Willink?

  We gotta stay lean. So that's, that's good. The idea that whatever you're training in should evolve. And look, it's beautiful to see right now jujitsu evolving like crazy. And it's kind of evolving exponentially. I think jujitsu is evolving exponentially now. Cause every one move leads, let's just say theoretically, every one move leads to two moves. Would you say that's something you could say, could claim?

• 40:00Dean Lister?

  It should, it should, yeah.

• 40:01Jocko Willink?

  Maybe even one move, it could be that one move leads to four moves and some one moves lead to seven moves. But let's just say in general, conservatively, every one move leads to two move.

• 40:12Dean Lister?

  Sure.

• 40:13Jocko Willink?

  So there's been so many new moves created in the last 10 years that, and they've all created and spawned more moves and more moves and more moves. So. It's a highly evolving sport.

• 40:25Dean Lister?

  Yeah, absolutely. And some things, some things have been forgotten or reinvented again for sure. Someone's done a lot of things before. Some things have been forgotten. Some things are out of style, but some things are definitely being invented right now.

• 40:40Jocko Willink?

  All right, then this is a really thorough manual, and this is what the army does, man. The army doesn't play around. They leave no room for interpretation on stuff. They got things on safety. They got the things on risk assessment assessments on how you're going to keep everybody safe while you're doing it. One thing they say is combatants training has inherent risks. These risks may not be readily apparent and are sometimes counterintuitive to the untrained person. Therefore, a combatants instructor certified at the appropriate level should be involved in the process to mitigate these risks. And it's also important as a trainer to be able to point out the risks of not training. Like if you don't train, because listen, if you train, you can sprain your ankle. If you train, you can you hurt your shoulder. But if you don't train, what's the risk there? The risk is you can.

• 41:24Dean Lister?

  Worse.

• 41:25Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it's it's gonna end up being worse. So they go through, you know, how to set up a training area, what's general safety precautions to to make. And then they got this thing. This is interesting. According to a report published by the Armed Forces Health Surveillance Center, 730 individuals who served in an active or reserve component in the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps were hospitalized or medically evacuated for injuries incurred while performing wrestling, judo, and unarmed combat training between January 2002 and December 2009. This averages to roughly 100 personnel per year during an eight-year period.

• 42:10Jocko Willink?

  Now, quite frankly, that's not that bad, I don't think. I think that's actually pretty darn good to go, considering how many people are actually training. It says it should be noted that 194 personnel, 40% of those hospitalized, and 26.6% of all injuries were injured while off duty or have unknown duty status. Unsupervised execution of combatives techniques is strongly discouraged. This also means some of that percentage is I got a bar fight. And I went to my, my, my gunny sergeant said, hey, gunny, I was training combatives and I broke my hand on, you know, my training partner's face. How's your, oh, you know, how's your buddy? Oh, he's okay. But, you know, I need to get my cast. So there's some of that going on.

• 42:55Jocko Willink?

  Areas of the body most commonly injured of the injuries documented in the study, a large percentage of forty five point six percent occurred in the lower extremities. In fact, fractures primarily of the ankle, tibia, or fibula. Accounted for nearly one half of the injuries. That's seemed high to me. And you know what it shows you? They're doing a lot of takedowns.

• 43:16Dean Lister?

  Yeah.

• 43:17Jocko Willink?

  They're doing a lot of takedowns. But isn't it weird also fractures? They're talking about fractures. And so, so fractures percentage was fifty percent. Sprains and strains was only thirteen percent. And what I thought to myself is that's because you know what? You don't have to go to the hospital for a sprain or a strain. So you're not reporting it. I mean, how many, how many times have you hurt your ankle?

• 43:41Jocko Willink?

  Or your knee training?

• 43:43Dean Lister?

  Few times in kickboxing, few times.

• 43:45Jocko Willink?

  And, and gone and not gone to the hospital.

• 43:48Dean Lister?

  Many times.

• 43:49Jocko Willink?

  I mean, it's like ridiculous, right? How many times did I go home like, oh, I'm kind of limping a little bit, you know, my shoulders tweaked, my elbow got straightened out, Dean Lister, um, whatever. So I think a lot of the strain, I think sprains and strains is actually you're gonna get them. It's like almost a hundred percent. But people just kind of like, oh, just put ice on it and call it good.

• 44:09Speaker 02

  Well, you think maybe that, that these lower extremities injuries is from like kicking?

• 44:14Dean Lister?

  Well, I don't know. My goodness.

• 44:17Jocko Willink?

  I think it's takedowns.

• 44:19Speaker 02

  Straight up fractures, I mean, I guess.

• 44:21Dean Lister?

  Also, you know how maybe they'll turn the wrong way, you know, a wrestler face with hips, you know, I'm saying like when someone's learning, you're going through those, those rough areas where more likely to get hurt.

• 44:31Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that, yeah, actually, if you think about how many broken bones? Have you seen on the mats during training?

• 44:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, it's usually.

• 44:41Jocko Willink?

  I think I've seen two. I think I've seen two, one like ankle and one, uh, what's radial. Yeah, I got caught in a, my buddy got caught in a bicep slicer. And I heard it crack. Spiral fracture and he was in the day still went on deployment.

• 45:01Dean Lister?

  Damn.

• 45:02Jocko Willink?

  But, but yeah, that's why it's weird. But how many people, how many times have you seen somebody get a sprained ankle, a sprained knee? It's like you can't count them all. So this is a weird thing. This is a weird thing. And then it goes on to dislocations and skull or bone fractures and other intercranial injuries, other injuries, concussions, concussions, they've only got a three percent.

• 45:25Dean Lister?

  Taco. How many people get hurt on the obstacle course? You know what I'm saying?

• 45:29Jocko Willink?

  On the obstacle course, uh, probably not a ton, but how many people get hurt going through land warfare training out in the desert? Oh, you know, in every.

• 45:37Dean Lister?

  Any kind of training.

• 45:38Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, people are gonna get hurt.

• 45:39Speaker 02

  Like what in land warfare training, like what?

• 45:41Jocko Willink?

  Uh, twisted ankle, hurt knee. Um, it's usually an ankle in your back, right? Picking up my buddy. Kind of especially when some people were running land warfare and there was a lot of buddy caring could be done. Sorry, fellows. Uh, just trying to be ready for war. But yeah, people are gonna get injured. Uh, here's another one, like fast roping or parachuting, like people break their ankle, people land wrong, people get hurt. So yeah, you're doing high risk training, people are gonna get hurt. Um, traumatic brain injury. The Armed Forces Health Surveillance Center study concluded that a relatively small percentage of 15.5% of combatants related injuries occur in the head, back, neck, and nervous system.

• 46:23Jocko Willink?

  Dude, I don't think fifteen percent is a small number. I don't like that number. However, these injuries can have disastrous consequences, which can include traumatic brain injuries.

• 46:32Dean Lister?

  That's why you gotta spar. You can't spar every day, you know, boxing every day.

• 46:36Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah. And for sure. That's something that we've learned and you and I had, did not learn um, until it was too late because we already probably sparred hundreds of rounds back in the day, live with MMA gloves, by the way. Which is not smart.

• 46:52Dean Lister?

  You can see better, you know.

• 46:54Jocko Willink?

  I mean, yeah, I mean, that's kind of disturbing. You know, when you think about all the rounds you did back in the day while training for camp. Is a lot of you getting punched in the head.

• 47:09Speaker 02

  Do you spar with MMA gloves just striking or is it a full?

• 47:14Dean Lister?

  Both, usual takedowns, but you know, you put Vaseline on it or you put a you wear headgear and small gloves or big gloves and no headgear. Yeah, depends.

• 47:23Jocko Willink?

  But that's my, you know, we kind of evolved. And now it's evolved like I spar a lot less, a lot less.

• 47:32Dean Lister?

  Wasn't it back in the, back when you were going through SEAL training, they put the boats on your head and jump on the boats. So yeah, but now they don't do that.

• 47:38Jocko Willink?

  They don't do that anymore.

• 47:39Dean Lister?

  Yeah, but see you learn from the past because everyone has bad necks, Higgs, you, Oz, everyone, Sarge.

• 47:47Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that wasn't healthy. That was not healthy. You got a boat on your head and the freaking 220 pound instructor jumps into the boat. And it's not like that moment of impact, the weight is distributed evenly amongst the six or seven heads in there. No, he lands wherever he lands and it takes at least, you know. Yeah, that was not good.

• 48:10Speaker 02

  And it feels like there's no real benefit in that kind of quote unquote training.

• 48:14Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, there's, there is no benefit. It's only a negative. It's kind of like getting punched in the head.

• 48:18Dean Lister?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 48:20Jocko Willink?

  Now, listen, you have to get punched a little bit. So that you are used to it and you're not scared of it, but you don't get better at getting punched in the head.

• 48:27Dean Lister?

  That's why we don't line people on walls and just start going ham on their faces. Those videos of guys laughing on the walls, starting punching.

• 48:33Jocko Willink?

  That's just freaking.

• 48:35Dean Lister?

  Different tactics.

• 48:36Jocko Willink?

  That's not just different tactics. That's like freaking jerks.

• 48:44Jocko Willink?

  Traumatic brain injury occurs when a sudden trauma or head injury disrupts the function of the brain. Initiating the onset or worsening of the following symptoms. Loss of or decreased level of consciousness, loss of memory for events immediately after altercation, alteration in mental state. Confusion, disorientation, neurological deficits, weakness, loss of balance, change in vision. So, so you get a lot of these things if you're sparring all the time and you shouldn't. So, don't.

• 49:21Jocko Willink?

  And it goes on to some more of this danger. Should a soldier exhibit any of the symptoms of traumatic brain injury, a soldier should ask, should seek immediate emergency evaluation. This is how, I mean, remember when I got a really bad concussion from you? You've had like, I don't know, three or four? Yeah, but there was the worst one where I went, actually had to go to the hospital. Yeah, I did call that, yeah. And I remember the doctor said, hey, you know, you no contact for, I think she said, six months. What happened? What, which one was that? Your head on my knee or something? No, uh... Oh, was it my shot? Yeah, it was a, it was a head, it was your head hitting my head. And your chin, my head hit your chin? Yeah, yep. And it, it, it didn't knock me out, knock me down. And then I was, remember I was

• 50:05Jocko Willink?

  looking up at the roof and all, like I saw that the, the, I was like, why is Dean rotating me right now? Cause I feel like it, that's why. I was like, why is Dean? Cause he was across side and like, I'm looking up at the rafters in city boxing. Remember the city boxing, had those big rafters? And I'm looking at him and they're turning and I'm like, I'm trying to put my feet to stop you from turning me, but it wasn't turning? I was turning you, by the way. Yeah, no, you weren't. And then I woke up in the middle of the night, was throwing up and dizzy, couldn't walk to the bathroom. And so I went to the hospital, cause a boxer had just died. That's right, yeah. A boxer had just died. And I was like, bro, I'm messed up. And one of my team guy friends came and drove me to the hospital. Cause I couldn't, like, I was done. And, but

• 50:47Jocko Willink?

  here's the, here's done, now here's dumb. She's like, no contact for six months. And I was like, cool. Four weeks later, I was like, I think I'm good to go. And I was, we were training again. Like, doing that, so, don't be stupid.

• 51:02Speaker 02

  Did you get amnesia or anything like that?

• 51:04Jocko Willink?

  No, no, I didn't.

• 51:06Speaker 02

  I got a concussion from football, I think I told you this, where I got amnesia, straight up, woke up, like, not, well, I was conscious, but I woke up, you know, you come to the amnesia or whatever, just confused. Same deal, no contact. But they were like, well, it's your first concussion. The next week... I played a game, the first hit I took, another amnesia scenario. I was like, I don't know where I am or whatever.

• 51:28Jocko Willink?

  That's why they have concussion protocol now and all this stuff. They didn't used to have that back when the day when you were over there at uh.

• 51:34Speaker 02

  Kauai.

• 51:35Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 51:35Dean Lister?

  I had probably about ten serious ones, but one of them after Japan, I fought a runner. I went to Spain, like right afterwards and, and I was like a twelve year old kid, like I had the, I had the, I had the mental capacity of about a twelve year old kid. I was like, hey Dean, I'm gonna, and I would just do, I would just, I was very, I don't know, for about two weeks.

• 51:54Speaker 02

  Yeah. Did, did you, you felt out of it or was it?

• 51:57Dean Lister?

  You know, yeah, I'm standing, I'm gonna fall down, catch myself, you know, sometimes twice a day, sometimes twice a week and then went down, even like six months later, I got like one or two of those. Like, like, whoa, I gotta sit down, but not for a long time.

• 52:09Jocko Willink?

  You're just like playing Legos and stuff?

• 52:13Dean Lister?

  Damage, I'll go come out, that's good time, well timed.

• 52:15Speaker 02

  But right, they're like, hey, uh, how long, six months or whatever? Cause yeah, you feel better. Cause even the next week I felt better. I was like, bro, I'm not dizzy. I don't feel no pain or whatever, but like your head is so weak now. So like you could get like a small light, I got a light hit. It was a light hit and I was just confused. Like I don't even know where I am.

• 52:33Jocko Willink?

  Did they pull you out of the game then?

• 52:34Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 52:35Jocko Willink?

  Cause you were just done.

• 52:35Speaker 02

  Everyone on the whole team like knew, I'm like, well, Brad, it's kinda scary to be honest with you. Like you don't know what's going on at all. And oh yeah, they knew cause I had it the, the week before they pulled me out.

• 52:45Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Well, Dean, you've taken some shots in your MMA career, like, and you've never been knocked out. In an MMA fight.

• 52:54Dean Lister?

  Knocked down, I've been knocked down.

• 52:55Jocko Willink?

  You've been knocked down, but you've never been knocked out, but I've watched some of your fights that I was actually at. And I still can't believe that you didn't get KO'd to next month. He was like, oh, cool, whatever. I'm gonna keep fighting you.

• 53:09Dean Lister?

  There's a reason I don't look like Justin Bieber. I look a little bit different.

• 53:15Jocko Willink?

  Uh, all right. Um, let's be careful of traumatic brain injury. Chokes, next section on chokes. Chokes are the most effective way to end a fight without a weapon. They incapacitate an enemy. With supervision, chokes can be applied in training exactly as a soldier would on the battlefield.

• 53:32Dean Lister?

  Yeah. Great.

• 53:34Jocko Willink?

  For training purposes, hold chokes only until your opponent taps. Holding a choke for lengthy periods may cause injury or death. Okay. So, yeah, this is one of the, one of the things we're dealing with.

• 53:46Dean Lister?

  They have to say that. They have to say that. Um, I know that's.

• 53:49Jocko Willink?

  Wait, have to say what?

• 53:50Dean Lister?

  Like it could be injury. I mean, if you hold someone asleep for five minutes, yeah. Um, but if someone goes to sleep, you let them go, they'll wake up. Now, if someone is, there's certain substances that can actually interact with, with certain organs, that could be dangerous. That's true. If someone has a medical condition, never know.

• 54:09Dean Lister?

  But, uh, I, I swear being choked out is safer than being knocked out.

• 54:13Jocko Willink?

  Oh, it's not, it's, it's infinitely safer. It's infinitely safer.

• 54:19Dean Lister?

  Now, if you have.

• 54:19Jocko Willink?

  Choked out is.

• 54:22Dean Lister?

  Painless.

• 54:23Jocko Willink?

  I would get, I would go so far as to say, being choked out has no negative impact on your health.

• 54:29Dean Lister?

  Yeah, no.

• 54:31Jocko Willink?

  Now, look, would you want to get choked out all day, every day? No. But if you get choked out,

• 54:36Jocko Willink?

  thirty seconds later, you are totally viable to do anything that you, that you need to do. And with no impairment whatsoever. You get knocked out, just like you said, Echo Charles. If you, see if someone gets knocked out.

• 54:49Dean Lister?

  Hits ground.

• 54:49Jocko Willink?

  You are messed up.

• 54:51Dean Lister?

  Yeah.

• 54:52Jocko Willink?

  And you have probably some kind of permanent damage to your brain. Choked out, no factor.

• 55:00Speaker 02

  Would you compare being choked out to like your leg falling asleep? I'm sure anatomically and physiologically, there's a lot different, but.

• 55:08Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, probably something.

• 55:08Speaker 02

  You know, like your leg falls asleep, you're like, oh, and then it comes back.

• 55:12Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah, whatever, right?

• 55:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, then you're fine. That's what it feels like, to be honest.

• 55:15Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it's just, it's, it's horrible because, you know, law enforcement, actually at this point, there's so many law enforcement departments where the choke is illegal.

• 55:28Dean Lister?

  It's the same as, it's the same as shooting someone.

• 55:30Jocko Willink?

  Yep, it's lethal force and you will be charged. And when properly trained, now look, if someone's improperly trained, there's a higher percentage that they might actually hurt somebody.

• 55:44Dean Lister?

  True.

• 55:45Jocko Willink?

  But anyone that's properly trained, I mean, please, if you come to arrest me and I'm being a jerk because I'm on drugs or drunk or whatever.

• 55:53Dean Lister?

  Choke me out.

• 55:54Jocko Willink?

  Please choke me.

• 55:54Dean Lister?

  Don't shoot me.

• 55:55Jocko Willink?

  Don't shoot me and don't beat me in the head with a baton, right?

• 55:59Dean Lister?

  Yeah.

• 55:59Jocko Willink?

  Because that's going to mess me up permanently. Whereas you choke me out, you put me to sleep, put me in cuffs, I'll wake up sober up and I'll be like, yeah, I'm sorry, man. Whereas if you hit me in the head with a baton six times, which is what it's going to take to knock me out, I'm going to wake up, I'm going to be messed up, I'm going to have cuts all over my head.

• 56:16Dean Lister?

  Stitches, yeah.

• 56:17Jocko Willink?

  Stitches, brain damage of some kind. I'm going to sue everybody. I'm going to be, it's just a disaster. Whereas you put me to sleep, last little 90 night rear naked choke. It's a terrible thing. It's a terrible thing that that's been demonized the way it has. And, and look, there's been some cases where clearly it was a freaking major problem because a chokehold got put on, held for too long, put on by someone that was panicked or otherwise freaking out.

• 56:46Dean Lister?

  Yeah.

• 56:47Jocko Willink?

  And it was the wrong move to make and the training wasn't there to let a person realize, oh, this person's unconscious now, I need to let him go.

• 56:55Dean Lister?

  Yeah, true.

• 56:57Jocko Willink?

  And no one was detached enough to be like, hey, you, that person's subdued now, you can let him go.

• 57:05Jocko Willink?

  But that's jokes. What'd you write down, Dean?

• 57:08Dean Lister?

  No, I was just, I was saying like, you know, about the illusions of, well, I mean, it's, it's ULC, you know, so if you, if you have me in a chokehold, I'll bite your arm or I'll poke your eyes. And truth is, if you get a high level black belt and they have a choke, try to actually start, start with my arm in your, in your mouth, if you want, your, your teeth will, it won't shatter, but you, you will, you will, you will stop biting me. Or you reach back for my eyes, you have three seconds to go to sleep. I could hide my eyes too. And the eyes are not like jello. I mean, they're very sensitive, but. I mean, it's just funny. People think, oh, you know, if that's the ULC, we're in a control. I just reach back, poke his eyes. That's annoying. It pisses me off, actually. You saw that video with Boss Ruten? Yeah, you know, with the choke hold, reach back for my eyes and it's or reach for the

• 57:52Dean Lister?

  groin. So these are targets or opportunity. You have to include that as a possibility.

• 57:56Jocko Willink?

  Right.

• 57:57Dean Lister?

  Right. But I'm saying like, um, just the thought of here's a quick easy way to choke. Just reach after the eyes. No, it's not that easy because if they know what they're doing, they're squeezing you. Take you three seconds. You're sleeping.

• 58:05Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And you're not getting their eyes out in three seconds.

• 58:08Dean Lister?

  You might scratch their eyelid.

• 58:09Jocko Willink?

  Yep. It's, I've had people try to gouge my eyes out before and it's ineffective compared to a choke. They're going to sleep.

• 58:15Dean Lister?

  Yeah, it'll, it'll, it'll kind of piss me off. I might choke you.

• 58:17Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you might choke harder.

• 58:18Dean Lister?

  Yeah. Bite my arm right through your teeth. And you know, it's just stuff like that. It sounds brutal. It is brutal, but don't, don't bite my arm. You know what I'm saying? So, yeah. So that, that kind of stuff, there is a happy medium of including that as a possibility, but not really as in that that is a quick fix. It's just something to include in training.

• 58:33Jocko Willink?

  Uh, joint locks. Attacks on most large joints, for example, elbow, shoulder and knee are painful long before causing injuries, which allows soldiers to conduct full force training without significant risk of injury. The exceptions are wrist attacks and twisting knee attacks. Therefore, these attacks should be taught with great care and should not be allowed during sparring. That's interesting. Pete the Greek disagrees. Hundred percent.

• 59:00Dean Lister?

  Yes, I think so. The, the way we do Jocko, I echo myself. What they're talking about is something known as a told or a heel look. It twists your, your heel or your foot, but the consequences, your knee twists usually depends on if you have a strong ankle, your ankle might pop first. Now, these kinds of things done responsibly can be done in training as long as you catch and release. Also, your partner has to know not turn the wrong way. It hurt themselves. So I think that should be included in training, but I see a white belt, you know, teach them a heel look and go hard because yeah, with a boot on, a military boot, you can just grab the boot, twist it. You don't need to get a look, you know, they can just grab your boot. So, so with the boots on, leg lock city, bro.

• 59:35Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. It is, it is with heel hooks. Heel hooks do not hurt until I pop, until you're injured.

• 59:42Dean Lister?

  Right at the edge of.

• 59:43Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, right at the edge. It might, but I, I've, I actually hurt someone uh with a heel hook. I was a blue belt. And I was training with a friend of mine who's a SEAL, who's all amped up. And I put a heel hook on and I, I did, I, I put it on to a point where I was like, oh, you know, whatever. He, he's not tapping and I think I just like let it go or whatever, but it hurt him. So, and he didn't really feel the pain from it and I went to something else. So it is a thing and you do need to pay attention to that, that heel hooks really don't hurt that much until you're injured.

• 1:00:25Jocko Willink?

  Wrist locks.

• 1:00:26Dean Lister?

  Yeah, there's also.

• 1:00:27Jocko Willink?

  That's a weird, I don't know why, uh, does that include it?

• 1:00:30Dean Lister?

  There's many bones in the, you know, the hand is all these bones together and there's certain little pop could be this one bone and this one, this one little like asked Dr. Luke would. You know, as the hand, the human hand of obviously, but it could be this little knuckle. It could be the finger. It could be, you get me this guy. It could be that finger. It could be. So a little pressure could pop a finger. Yeah. So, so that's what they mean. They are effective though. There's some really effective wrist locks. Generally speaking, on the ground, there's not a lot of very effective standing wrist locks against a trained opponent at least.

• 1:01:00Jocko Willink?

  Because there's the, cause the opponent has a lot of mobility.

• 1:01:02Dean Lister?

  Yes, yes. You need to isolate one of the major limbs, the neck or one of the arms. So you control next to the trunk of the body is what I'm saying. Yeah.

• 1:01:09Speaker 02

  You know how like the heel hook, right? The, you don't really feel it until like kind of too late scenario, right? What about knee bars in your experience? Same deal?

• 1:01:17Dean Lister?

  A kimura is worse than a straight knee lock.

• 1:01:20Speaker 02

  As far as what the pain?

• 1:01:21Dean Lister?

  The twisting, the twisting motion. If you're, if your arm pops in a kimura, it could be a problem. If your knee pops from a straight, I mean, you know, you'd be sore. Now, if, if you don't tap at all and it does break, then it's of course serious injury, but the straight knee lock, you feel the pain right away.

• 1:01:35Jocko Willink?

  But, but your question about the pain level.

• 1:01:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly.

• 1:01:38Jocko Willink?

  The pain level in a straight knee lock is there and you'll know to tap.

• 1:01:41Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:01:41Dean Lister?

  Yeah, you know, yeah.

• 1:01:42Speaker 02

  I've had um my knee pop from a knee bar, didn't feel it. Even when it popped, I didn't really feel it that much. I knew there was something wrong.

• 1:01:50Dean Lister?

  You're so athletic. But seriously, running your whole life, maybe that's the reason, running, running, running. You lose a lot of the nerves in your, your knee.

• 1:01:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's very possible. Yes. Cause it did swell up. I didn't like.

• 1:01:58Jocko Willink?

  I was gonna say, was it actually injured though?

• 1:02:01Speaker 02

  He was like

• 1:02:02Jocko Willink?

  Cause you have those weird knees too that sometimes make a noise for no reason.

• 1:02:05Speaker 02

  They pop out, yeah. Um, yeah, and that's a good point. It probably was that they were swollen for, I don't know, a week, two weeks maybe. Which actually technically as far as compared to a real knee injury is not that much time. So was I injured? Moderately injured, but it did swell up and I think it was just a meniscus situation, but I didn't feel it though. It wasn't painful, so yeah, it could be like a unique thing.

• 1:02:29Dean Lister?

  Like, yeah, with the arm lock, that next day their arms were up. But the knee is a little more serious, but it's not as bad as a chemo. A chemo, if you get an injury from a chemo, it's a little worse than a, than a straight knee lock generally. Twisting heel lock is different.

• 1:02:40Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, well, your shoulders are more complex joint.

• 1:02:44Dean Lister?

  Twisting.

• 1:02:44Jocko Willink?

  What have you, you got knee surgeries pretty early.

• 1:02:48Dean Lister?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:49Jocko Willink?

  Didn't you, Dean Lister?

• 1:02:50Dean Lister?

  Ninety-seven and two thousand.

• 1:02:51Jocko Willink?

  How old were you?

• 1:02:52Dean Lister?

  I must have been twenty, twenty-one.

• 1:02:55Jocko Willink?

  And what, what was the first injury?

• 1:02:57Dean Lister?

  It was, it was from high school football. I got hit from the side. My knee was on, if someone was on there, like they already got knocked down. They were on the hands and knees and my, my knee got propped up against the ribs. I didn't see him. I'm pursuing down line. I was a linebacker. And someone hit me from the right side and it's like twisted over just perfectly. I just see the guy. I saw the video. My knee planted on the side and I got hit from the right. It just popped right over.

• 1:03:18Jocko Willink?

  So was it?

• 1:03:19Dean Lister?

  Full ACL.

• 1:03:19Jocko Willink?

  Oh, ACL.

• 1:03:20Dean Lister?

  ACL, the LCL and the meniscus medial, medial.

• 1:03:24Jocko Willink?

  So you got that triple threat surgery?

• 1:03:26Dean Lister?

  Bucket handle, Terry. That's what they call it. But, uh, yeah, uh, and then the doctor's like, yeah, you need surgery, but you, you have a strong knee capsule. I'm like, what does that mean? Well, right now you're okay, kinda, but then eventually it just came out. James Nielsen, he had a triangle. I was in a full squat. Just came out one time on the mat in ninety-seven and then I got surgery.

• 1:03:43Jocko Willink?

  And then you got, they needed surgery. I, I was kinda forgot that you got surgery in ninety-seven. And that you, most of your career was post a knee surgery.

• 1:03:52Dean Lister?

  Shout out to Ron Burgum for, I had unemployment for them and my insurance lapsed just like a week after that. So I had full.

• 1:04:00Dean Lister?

  So I got, yeah, thanks to Ron Burgum, my friend. Yeah, he took the job, so.

• 1:04:04Jocko Willink?

  You got lucky on that one.

• 1:04:05Dean Lister?

  Lucky, that's an expensive thing, yeah.

• 1:04:07Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And then you got another one in two thousand one?

• 1:04:09Dean Lister?

  Yeah, but that was just a, a meniscus. That's just a shaving, yeah, meniscus. Two thousand one, two thousand three is what, it was a good year for me in Brazil. Two thousand one, I was, you know, for three weeks, not a big deal.

• 1:04:19Jocko Willink?

  And then you got so, shoulder surgery?

• 1:04:22Dean Lister?

  Shoulder surgery. I had, I had five shoulder surgeries in, in a year and a half, yeah.

• 1:04:26Jocko Willink?

  That's not fun.

• 1:04:28Dean Lister?

  Cause I had an infection in Brazil, in that Brazil, I have infection, you know, really bad, serious infection. Like they were even saying in Portuguese, like, hey, we're not saying you might get your arm cut off, but you know, could happen. I'm like, bro, when a doctor says they're kind of like, but they're telling you for a reason.

• 1:04:44Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:45Dean Lister?

  So.

• 1:04:46Jocko Willink?

  What surgery was that? Like the original problem? What was it?

• 1:04:49Dean Lister?

  It was my medial, my, my infraspinatus, my subscapularis and my labrum and my rotator cuff, which was all ripped off from all the competitions I've had. Also in Russia, it broke, broke in Russia, snapped, bad arm, that's all, but it's okay.

• 1:05:03Speaker 02

  That's interesting. We have a lot of overlapping surge or injuries, even actually I did, um, I tore my knee kind of real similar in a similar way. Yeah. The year before, ninety six, yeah, football, same deal.

• 1:05:17Dean Lister?

  And your bicep too?

• 1:05:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, the bicep, in fact, one of our surgeries was on the same day, we ran into each other, did you know that?

• 1:05:24Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:24Speaker 02

  I go in for the surgery and the doctor's like, oh yeah, Dean's here. I was like, what? And then he's like coming to after his surgery, he's like, wait, who was the doctor?

• 1:05:32Jocko Willink?

  Where he like knew you guys?

• 1:05:33Speaker 02

  Well, yeah, cause you said when I first, um, tore my bicep was after you tore yours, it was at a different time. So when I tore mine, I was like, hey, who's your guy? Like who did you go to? Cause he was back in the game. So I was like, let me go to that guy. So it was Norman Kane.

• 1:05:49Dean Lister?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:49Speaker 02

  And so I went to him and then, um, then he patched me up or whatever.

• 1:05:52Jocko Willink?

  Dean's here.

• 1:05:53Speaker 02

  No, no, no, no, that was the first one. The sec- or the, when I ran into him was the second one.

• 1:05:58Dean Lister?

  What if, what if I'm being real that I'm like, Echo, don't do it, don't trust him.

• 1:06:03Speaker 02

  I would have trusted him.

• 1:06:04Jocko Willink?

  You've only torn one bicep, haven't you, Dean?

• 1:06:06Dean Lister?

  Oh, well, yeah, just, it was complete, complete tear though, just rolled up my shoulder, you were there when it rolled up.

• 1:06:12Dean Lister?

  No bicep.

• 1:06:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:06:15Dean Lister?

  Remember Robert Garcia, Robert Garcia? I don't know, bro. Yeah, I was a bad injury.

• 1:06:21Speaker 02

  But the second one, it was like nine years later when you got your other surgery on your shoulder bicep. It was like you had a big surgery. So I went and Norman Kane did yours, right? That one?

• 1:06:31Dean Lister?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:31Speaker 02

  But I didn't get it from Norman Kane, didn't do mine. It was the other guy. It was like his partner guy or whatever. So, but I saw that's who told me when I walked in, it was Norman Kane and he was like, oh, what's up, man? Uh, Dean's here. And then he's like, no, we finished already. So then Dean's like, you know, when you come.

• 1:06:47Jocko Willink?

  That's a bad sign for jiu jitsu. When you let go to get surgery and your other friends are in there getting surgery as well.

• 1:06:52Speaker 02

  Other guys there too.

• 1:06:53Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:54Dean Lister?

  Not a good sign.

• 1:06:55Speaker 02

  Hundred percent. How is your?

• 1:06:58Dean Lister?

  It's getting strong. I was rehabbing progress, you know, so I'll be okay.

• 1:07:04Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, check. It actually has a protocol. Like I said, the army doesn't miss anything. Protocol for injured soldiers, you know, it's got everything in here. It also says that striking is not the most efficient way to incapacitate an enemy and often results in injury to the striker.

• 1:07:22Jocko Willink?

  So this is like a pro grappling statement. Not only is it not the most efficient way, but I'm probably gonna get hurt too.

• 1:07:28Dean Lister?

  The old school boxers, apparently with no gloves would punch the body more.

• 1:07:33Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:33Dean Lister?

  That's why the hands were done here because punching the forehead back in those days. Your hands broken now, you're like, eh, you know, probably is retired now or you know, you're not, you're not gonna go do the job at the factory now. And these guys actually worked at the back of the time. So the rumor, actually, pretty much known with the eighteen hours. It was like the hands were low because you were punching more of the body. Face, yeah, but, but you're taking a chance.

• 1:07:54Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:54Dean Lister?

  So, so there we go. I mean, they knew back then they didn't have the same medical care we do now and there's a reason they were hands low.

• 1:08:01Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's they actually keep them in tucked to their sides a little bit, prevent those body shots and yet further out in front of them. So they maybe can get up and like defend the face a little bit if they need to. That's interesting.

• 1:08:13Jocko Willink?

  It does say however, striking is important part of overall fight strategy. Strikes can be very effective in manipulating the opponent into unfavorable positions. Striking can be practiced with various types of protective padding such as gloves. Defense can be practiced using reduced force blows. So there you go.

• 1:08:29Jocko Willink?

  Talks about like, I mean, this is such a detailed document and the army just does this, man. The army is squared away when it comes to doctrine. They make them just incredibly detailed things and this team obviously put a huge amount into this. Talking about training. The military profession is inherently dangerous. Commanders must train their units to tough standards under the most realistic conditions possible.

• 1:08:58Jocko Willink?

  This chapter discusses the combatives training program from an institutional training to operational unit training, training areas, training techniques, teaching techniques, and safety precautions that must be considered before conducting combatives training. And they just go, they go, they get after it in this thing. I mean, this is like, if you didn't know anything about anything, you could pick up this manual and start to piece it together, you know? Deliberate work risk assessment worksheet is vital to identify a necessary risk by comparing potential benefit to potential loss. The draw process allows units to identify and control hazards, conserve combat power and resources and complete the mission. This process is cyclic and continuous and must be integrated into all phases of operations and training. Like, these guys are just, they're not even playing around

• 1:09:43Jocko Willink?

  with this. And then they go, what do you got, Dean?

• 1:09:45Dean Lister?

  No, I was just saying, like, I like how this is structured. I really like it a lot because you need to have a guideline, especially in the military. I think it's really good. I think you're doing a good job so far. It's very complete. One thing that I think is very important as far as training on your own, if you're in the military, or if you're under some certain guidance like this, is there has to be some wiggle room, some leeway, such as also a move that I don't even do that well, but I know my students do well. Like, like, remember Eric had a better darts than me? Maybe I taught it to him, though. So, so there's certain things I'll teach that would not be under my guideline, but I teach because some people do those moves naturally well. Some people, I wouldn't strive, I wouldn't teach, I'll teach in the triangle, but that's it, the legs are not very long, it's not gonna be their main move, but they're gonna learn it anyways. Someone else is gonna be, that's gonna be their move. So I think it's really important we have the guideline,

• 1:10:29Dean Lister?

  but there's also has to be some wiggle room. That's why it's important to train in your own, your own free time to find your own style. I think it's really important for Jiu-Jitsu.

• 1:10:37Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you don't want to learn by the book only. It's good to have guidelines. Yeah, you gotta have the guidelines, but you gotta get out there. And then it goes through the whole thing of like how the basic combatives course of instruction. There's a BCC instruction and what that does and what that's what that includes. And then tactical combatives course and what that's all about and what that includes. And then you get the combatives master trainer course of instruction. The CMTC. This addresses all ranges of the fight by training, striking skills and introduces soldiers to the integrated, integrating combatives training into the rest of their warrior tasks and drills. I E. incorporating combatives into training, close quarters combat training and mission unit training.

• 1:11:19Jocko Willink?

  And then it goes over duties of the combatives master trainer course certified instructors. And it says everything that they have to do. And there's a whole list of things that they have to do to be like a master trainer in this stuff. Just they went to great lengths to get this program. And, and you know, a lot of this I bet was they, they.

• 1:11:46Jocko Willink?

  You gotta play the game in the military, you know? You gotta play the game. You gotta give the leadership what it is that they need to say, yeah, we, yep. Oh, this is, I bet you they pulled out like some immediate action drill rifle training guidebook and said, all right, we're going to put all the stuff that's in here about safety. We're going to put it in here. Yeah. And they did an awesome job of setting this up where it's kind of hard, hard for the leadership to say, well, you guys really haven't thought this through. It's like, oh no, we thought this through to the freaking nth degree. Yeah. Here's some of the stuff the, the combatives instructor, instructor has to do. Receive at least 20 hours of instruction, gain the ability to teach basic combatives and develop scenario based training and understand standard competition rules.

• 1:12:30Jocko Willink?

  Pass a hands on, performance oriented test on basic combatives, combatives techniques, including the following maneuvers. Escape the mount, trap and roll, pass the guard, achieve mount from side control, arm push and roll to the rear mount, escape rear mount, escape the mount, shrimp to the guard, scissor sweep, rear naked choke, cross collar choke from the mount or guard, bent arm bar, straight arm bar from the guard, straight arm bar from the mount, sweep and attempt the straight, sweep from the attempted straight arm bar, close the gap and achieve the clinch, takedown from the front to the mount, rear, rear takedown, front guillotine choke, guillotine choke, sorry.

• 1:13:06Jocko Willink?

  Pass a written exam on the combatives program and standard combatives rules. Conduct at least one scenario based training exercise. And receive an additional 20 hours training. So they they've got everything like that's what you need to do. Right? So that's. There this is as thorough as you could hope for.

• 1:13:26Dean Lister?

  They forgot the spinning, jumping, double reverse, inverted, upside down. But other than that.

• 1:13:34Jocko Willink?

  And you know, we had Tim Kennedy on and he was talking about he's the free time. The three time army combatives champion. Uh, and when he won, he won it twice and he was the only person that had won it twice and then he won it three times. So. But but that's just an awesome competition. It's grueling what they do. It's like multiple fights and the rules kind of escalate as you go through. I think like the first day when they're just trying to weed people out, it's just like grappling only.

• 1:13:59Dean Lister?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:00Jocko Willink?

  And then the next day is like grappling with. Strikes on the ground or something like this. And then like the finals is just basically MMA with freaking fatigues on, right? That's freaking legit, man. And there's everybody shows up to that thing. It's the army, right? Freaking legit. Outstanding way to figure out where people are at. And then it gets into like. Unit training. And a successful unit combat is program continue to focus on the core techniques taught to soldiers during their national military training. Mastery of these moves, not exposure to a large number of techniques will result in more proficient fighters. For unit combatives training to be successful, it must become an integral part of the unit's culture. Successful unit combatives programs have four characteristics.

• 1:14:45Jocko Willink?

  Training for every soldier. Set standards and hold people accountable for them. Motivate soldiers and leaders to achieve excellence. Integrate combatives into mission training. So. I I think like that's the kind of thing that statement right there. This is what law enforcement needs to look at.

• 1:15:02Dean Lister?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:02Jocko Willink?

  Combatives training for everyone. They need to do it all the time. It needs to be part of mission training. And you know, I've been going around saying for the last couple of years that. I think law enforcement should be training 20% of their time. 20% of the time that you're at work as law enforcement, you should be getting trained.

• 1:15:20Dean Lister?

  But I think it's interesting because Jocko, uh, we talked about this personally about law enforcement. You're like, you've done vehicle interdiction, you know? You've actually done it in wartime scenarios at night, you know, and the thing is. Um, I'd rather get arrested by Jocko than actually no.

• 1:15:36Dean Lister?

  Other people would prefer to get arrested by Chaco than someone else who doesn't know jiu jitsu. So the thing is, it's not always nice with me, you know, I'm also not that nice back by the way, so to be fair. But I think it's gonna be, you know, is that extreme? I think the idea of, you know, human confrontation, just being used to that more and more. I mean, I mean, how do you get debate skills without getting into, you're not getting argument, not flowing argument, but you actually have to get into the debate itself. You can just talk by yourself or get in the debate with someone else to get skills like that, you know? So I think it's a good, good point. Plus you get in shape.

• 1:16:10Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, so, so let me ask you this question. Picture you have ten police officers.

• 1:16:16Dean Lister?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:17Jocko Willink?

  And there's a scenario that's unfolding. And one of the groups of ten is like normal police officers today. And they have the normal four hours per year of defensive tactics and combatives. But you have all ten of them versus another department that is training twenty, twenty percent of their time is spent training. So, and they've been, for a year have been spent twenty percent of their time training.

• 1:16:45Dean Lister?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:45Jocko Willink?

  And there's a call, some emergency situation. There's a, there's somebody going crazy with a knife. There's, you know, a, a, a, a domestic violence scenario where a guy's on PCP and he's freaking out. And, and, or you come home to your house and there's like something bad is happening at your house. Who do you want to show up? That is it, do you want the ten people, the ten police officers that have had four hours of training each? So forty hours of training, or you want only eight? Because two of these guys are, are actually on their training right now, they're not working. So you only get eight, but that eight has trained hundreds of hours over the last year to prepare for all these different scenarios.

• 1:17:29Jocko Willink?

  There's no doubt who, anyone would pick.

• 1:17:32Dean Lister?

  Someone else might say that, well, that time could be allotted better to study the law. It could be allotted more for, I don't know, marksmanship.

• 1:17:38Jocko Willink?

  They're stupid if they say that.

• 1:17:39Dean Lister?

  It could be allotted more for, for, for counseling sessions. I mean, the thing is, we're talking about human confrontation and I think how to deescalate because in jiu-jitsu, it's not always about me being stronger than you, it's about me finding a way around.

• 1:17:51Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, and it's also, and also that training is not necessarily, it's not all combat, it's not all shooting. You, you will be taking de-escalation. Hey, how do you deal with someone that's, oh, you can tell they're clearly angry. It's a domestic violence situation, the guy's freaking out, what are you gonna do? Hey, you need to settle down. And it's like, no, that's not gonna work out well.

• 1:18:10Dean Lister?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:10Jocko Willink?

  You need to, hey, keep some distance, talk to him. You can, so you're gonna get trained in all these different aspects, not just training on shooting and fighting. It's training on how to de-escalate, how to get control, how to, how to set things up. What psychological maneuvers can you make to get someone to calm down? Like, all those things are what you need to get trained in. So, the fact that I hear the excuse of like, well, you need the police out. No, untrained police have less value, way less value than trained police, not even close. And you know, that was another thing, right? As I was having some of those discussions and arguments while I was in the SEAL teams about, hey, this system that we're using right now, the guys are trained up in five days.

• 1:18:51Jocko Willink?

  The system that you're talking about would take years, you know, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, 10 years to get proficient at. And I, I remember I was like, occasionally get a good comeback or whatever. I was like, well, you're in the team for 20, so why not get good at it, you know? Why would you expect someone to get good in five days at something that takes a lifetime to get good at? And by the way, you're in the SEAL teams for 20 years, at least. Well, I guess you could be for less, but most guys, most guys are in it for four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, 10, 11, 12, 20, 25 years. Let's get good at this thing.

• 1:19:25Jocko Willink?

  So that's the unit training and they talk about standards and they talk about making it part of your, your physical training.

• 1:19:31Dean Lister?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:32Jocko Willink?

  Right? If you're gonna train, that's another thing, like police officers.

• 1:19:37Jocko Willink?

  That 20% of time that should be spent training, that includes like, how are you getting in shape? Are you in shape?

• 1:19:43Dean Lister?

  Want to be in shape if you're a cop.

• 1:19:44Jocko Willink?

  Oh my God. You know, you see these, you see these, uh, some of these videos of police officers. And you're thinking, wait a second, how is this person gonna, gonna stop anybody that's remotely athletic? Even if I just run away, how are you gonna catch anybody?

• 1:20:02Dean Lister?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:02Jocko Willink?

  And you know, this, this whole thing, you know, that we did a podcast on the Uvalde situation and it's just.

• 1:20:08Dean Lister?

  Yeah, it's terrible.

• 1:20:08Jocko Willink?

  What else needs to happen in America?

• 1:20:12Jocko Willink?

  To realize that we need more training. And by the way. That Uvalde situation? The fact that people didn't respond and, and, and acted in a cowardly manner is also part of training. It's also part of training because you learn like, oh, if I don't do something aggressive, then I'm gonna get caught. I'm gonna, I'm gonna look bad. I'm gonna be bad. I'm gonna, the culture changes. If you have a culture, and I used to see this with SEAL platoons, if you had a culture that like, you had some of these SEAL platoons coming through and they were like, ready to take on the world. And you throw some scenario at them, they were going on the attack. And that's a culture that, that happens.

• 1:20:53Dean Lister?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:53Jocko Willink?

  You have another SEAL platoon where it's like, well, we're cautious, we have a zero defect policy. We don't want to get in trouble. We don't want to do anything wrong. We don't want to look bad. And that's what happens. You see them stack up on a building, oh, I don't want to go. Do you want to go? I don't want to go. So you have to, you have to inculcate them with the right culture where they know, hey, if you make a mistake, it's okay because you're getting after it. I mean, we just did a freaking podcast about the damn Nazis. And part of the Nazis culture that they tried to instill was we'd rather have you make a bad decision and do something than not make a decision at all.

• 1:21:25Dean Lister?

  Yeah, the worst decision is no decision.

• 1:21:28Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, so the training that I'm talking about, it involves everything and it corrects all these problems.

• 1:21:34Dean Lister?

  It's getting them a shape, getting them more attuned to to stress, human confrontation, de-escalation, uh, how to defend yourself.

• 1:21:42Jocko Willink?

  Being default aggressive.

• 1:21:44Dean Lister?

  How to not damage or how how to lessen damage to a suspect.

• 1:21:46Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 1:21:47Dean Lister?

  I think it's, I think it's awesome overall. We had that department that, I think that's, I'm not saying this should be the policy, but one was at Michigan, some county, the sheriff, everyone had to be a blue belt in his, in his department.

• 1:21:58Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:58Dean Lister?

  Now, I'm not saying that should be, then again, but it sounds like we're, we're, we're on the right track. Yeah, we're on the right track there. I'm just saying like, like, I think it's, but then again, we're partial because we, we have this great reality called Jiu-Jitsu that we're exposed to.

• 1:22:10Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, but also we're seeing the news and we're seeing cops have to do things and get beat up by one guy and taking two or three people to take somebody and getting weapons taken away. And it's like awful to see, how does this even happening? So it's not, look, we might be biased towards Jiu-Jitsu, fine, take my bias out of it, I'll still tell you that you better learn how to fight and you better train and you better spend time training.

• 1:22:34Dean Lister?

  Jocko, you've seen at least 10 different videos, so 10 different, I'm talking Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, black belt versus, um, uh, yeah, yeah, like, like, for instance, like, he's mad around the guy, calm down, Matt, sir. Yeah, Vegas, this drunk guy was harassing him and, and even, and Hall, Ryan Hall also in some restaurants.

• 1:22:52Jocko Willink?

  Ryan Hall?

• 1:22:53Dean Lister?

  No, Ryan Hall.

• 1:22:54Jocko Willink?

  Ryan Hall, yeah, yeah.

• 1:22:55Dean Lister?

  Drunk people, they're just mad, they're like, hey, man, calm down, they go, I'll, I'll sue you, and this whole guy, you know, hey, call with the cop, you know, and the security comes and no one gets punched. And I know this, you're cops and the guy doesn't have a gun, I understand, but I'm saying these are black belts, which is of course a different level, but they're holding it out, not hurting them.

• 1:23:09Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:09Dean Lister?

  And they're, and they don't have three homies with, with, with batons. So by the way, you want to have groups, you want to have, uh, uh, team tactics with law enforcement, of course, I'm not saying, but it is cool if you have the ability and the opportunity to, well, look at that, and it's also one from Brazil, this guy tried to, I'm not saying, I think she just left, but she's, this, this guy tried to, uh, I don't know, rock, take her purse or something and she's like mounted on the guy, just beating him up. This is in Brazil, legit black belt, just female, just if you guys scream anything, she goes socorro, socorro. She means help in Portuguese, socorro, socorro, it means help in Portuguese and no one's helping him.

• 1:23:45Dean Lister?

  Chick just smacked, just beating the guy, like it was kind of brutal, but, but um, that is just, let's say it's a grandiose comparison. But if you have that opportunity and that ability, it's pretty cool.

• 1:23:56Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:56Dean Lister?

  There we go.

• 1:23:57Jocko Willink?

  And, and, and it's, it's, it's heinous to watch this stuff on an almost daily basis. Or, I mean, at least once a week, you're seeing a video of, of a cop that's not trained.

• 1:24:10Dean Lister?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:10Jocko Willink?

  And, and it had a bad outcome. And look, there's, there's all kinds of cops that are doing the right thing all the time. There's cops that train jiu jitsu, there's cops that are, that are doing things right to the best of their ability. By the way, they're investing their own money.

• 1:24:22Dean Lister?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:22Jocko Willink?

  And their own time so that they can be better, better police officers. Good on them, but should you have to make that sacrifice? And by the way, what if, you know, a guy's got a wife and kids and he's got a mortgage to pay and all of a sudden, you know, it's a hundred and forty-eight dollars a month to, to train jiu jitsu, or it's a hundred and sixty-five dollars a month to train jiu jitsu? All of a sudden it's like, hmm, I, I gotta make a choice between, you know, getting my kid a new bicycle and training jiu jitsu? Uh, you know what, I'm gonna sacrifice this month and the next thing you know, they look up in three years and they're not training anymore.

• 1:24:52Dean Lister?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:52Jocko Willink?

  So why not help the police so that they can help the community?

• 1:24:57Dean Lister?

  You know, who's doing a good job is our, our bro Ryan with uh, BP.

• 1:25:00Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:01Dean Lister?

  He has the, uh, yeah, what was it, react now, it's called the BORTAC.

• 1:25:04Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:04Dean Lister?

  They're like the federal SWAT team with the border, they're actually the guys who killed the Uvalde shooter.

• 1:25:08Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, a hundred percent.

• 1:25:09Dean Lister?

  But uh, these guys actually, Ryan has these guys, I mean, they, they do medical training, I don't know, but every day, but they have, they have um, doing barricades, training, you know, or they're doing ground. I even did a few simple, you know, classes out there and they all want to learn like the knee lock, you know, and they're like the combaters, but for, for the border patrol. And it's pretty, it's, it's pretty cool because they're not just sitting around, uh, well, they're going on duty and do, but they're actually training every day.

• 1:25:30Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:30Dean Lister?

  It's pretty cool.

• 1:25:31Jocko Willink?

  And that's the way, that's the way law enforcement should be.

• 1:25:35Dean Lister?

  Yep.

• 1:25:35Jocko Willink?

  You should train twenty percent of your time. If that means you train, you know, an hour a day or an hour and a half or two hours every day, or that means you take one day a week where you train all day, I don't know. But figure it out.

• 1:25:47Jocko Willink?

  Because if you're not training, you're not going to be prepared. And when you're not prepared, then you overreact and when you overreact, that causes problems. And then you get, you know, innocent people getting killed.

• 1:25:57Jocko Willink?

  Or people that don't deserve to get killed, get killed. Why? Cause there's a panic happening.

• 1:26:01Dean Lister?

  It's extreme, Jocko, but I had acquaintance that we're talking, he's talking, he was in Afghanistan, he was, he was in the Marines. And he was like, no army, my bad, it was army, both sides will kill me for saying that. And he was talking about how they would, they would practice putting IVs in with night vision on.

• 1:26:16Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:26:17Dean Lister?

  And like that's, you know, well, well, why? Well, in case we have night vision on, we can't see, you know? And, you know, cause it's different depth perception or whatever. But he's like, yeah, you know, that's just something like, okay, that makes sense. But that sounds kind of extreme. Well, why is it extreme? One day you might have to do that.

• 1:26:31Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And how much better are you prepared for if you don't have to have night vision on? Well, cool. And if you happen to, if you happen to roll up on a suspect and they attack you and they weigh a hundred and ten pounds. And they don't know anything. Cool. You can handle them. Great. But what happens when they're 220 pounds and they're a purple belt?

• 1:26:47Dean Lister?

  Yeah.

• 1:26:48Jocko Willink?

  Or they wrestled in high school.

• 1:26:50Dean Lister?

  Is it most training for in case something goes wrong?

• 1:26:52Jocko Willink?

  Should be.

• 1:26:52Dean Lister?

  So you have a jam in your pistol? Oh, well, did you mean you didn't clean your pistol correctly? Well, this is still gonna happen. It's still gonna have jams. There's level one, two, I don't know, three, what level, that's what it's hard to tell me. Uh, different ways to clear a jam, but it's in case something goes wrong. If something, if nothing goes wrong, you actually don't need a drill. Really think, why do, why do, why do you need a drill if nothing ever goes wrong? Something's gonna go wrong eventually. So that's, I'm just saying, jujitsu martial arts, what they're doing in the army, I think is really good because we're getting ready for in case something bad happens.

• 1:27:17Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And all of this will straighten out your mindset.

• 1:27:22Dean Lister?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:22Jocko Willink?

  It will straighten out your mindset. Cause if you don't, if you're not used to this stuff. When somebody grabs you and you're not used to it, like somebody grabs me or you or you, like somebody grabs one of us. There's no mental hurdle of any kind to be prepared for combat in that moment.

• 1:27:40Dean Lister?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:40Jocko Willink?

  Most people, when they get grabbed, they haven't ever been grabbed before. And they have to, they have a giant mental hurdle clear before they can even respond in any way. Never mind appropriately. And by the way, they're not going to respond appropriately. They're going to respond badly. So it's like this has to change.

• 1:28:01Jocko Willink?

  And like you said, I mean, I think this is a lot of the stuff that's in this Army Combatives Manual is suitable for law enforcement. And there's some people that freak out, by the way, when you say that. Oh, you want the cops to be military, paramilitary? No, yes, actually. I want them to be well-trained. I want them to be ready for whatever's going to happen.

• 1:28:23Dean Lister?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:24Jocko Willink?

  So, there you go.

• 1:28:29Jocko Willink?

  Then they go through like how to sustain, how to get people sustained where they can, where they can then

• 1:28:38Jocko Willink?

  keep up their training and, and stay good. Here's everyday mission essential task list requiring use of combative skills. A compliant subject at a traffic control point suddenly becomes non-compliant. These are just like things to run, just scenarios to run. The battalion indicates that an intelligent subject must be captured during the search and seizure mission. The lead man in the search team encounters hostile opposition and has a weapons malfunction. Okay. Could that happen? Yes, absolutely. Three, when turning a corner in a bunker complex, an enemy grabs a soldier's weapon and pins him against the wall. Okay, could that happen? Yes, it could. In close quarters, an enemy attacks a soldier under zero illumination. Could that happen? Yes, it could.

• 1:29:22Jocko Willink?

  These are everyday situations that could happen. Well, yeah, they could happen in combat, but they could happen in law enforcement as well. If you're not ready for them in any way, you're not going to know what to do and you're going to fall apart. And then you're going to end up doing something stupid.

• 1:29:37Dean Lister?

  You know, I, I've, I've heard, actually, we talked about this when I was in Puerto Rico, working with a couple of military guys, that a lot of guys are used to this, these optics, like these, you know, Eotech, whatever these things on their carbines or their pistols. If that doesn't work one day or it goes out, they're not practiced with open sights. So the thing is like, I mean, if you rely upon that right there, specifically that, you don't have that available to you, like, you know, you're not, you're not keeping yourself up to, up to. At the date upon if something goes wrong, the drilling, I think is really good. So if you're, if you were exactly caught and you can't see, if I can have someone, if I have a hold of someone, I don't need my eyes that much, to be honest. You really don't need your eyes.

• 1:30:17Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:30:18Dean Lister?

  Five, if I have your leg.

• 1:30:19Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, people compete when they're blind.

• 1:30:21Dean Lister?

  Yeah, absolutely. There's some strong guys, some strong blind guys.

• 1:30:23Jocko Willink?

  I'm Ryan Jobe. I was training with Ryan Jobe after he was blind. And it was like, you know, once you make contact with him, it's like, it's on.

• 1:30:31Dean Lister?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:34Jocko Willink?

  Talks about, you know, a bunch of stuff with live training, ground sparring, situational sparring. Right? That's something that we've been doing for a long time. Soldier A begins with in Soldier's B's guard. They spar until Soldier A passes the guard, is swept or submitted. And they go again.

• 1:30:50Dean Lister?

  Reset points, yeah.

• 1:30:51Jocko Willink?

  That's it. It's very straightforward things, but you could do that with, with every aspect, like any of these scenarios, you can run these scenarios. Okay, it's dark. You grab my weapon. Let's do it once. Let's do it twice. Let's do it three times. Let's do it five times. What works? What doesn't work?

• 1:31:07Dean Lister?

  These are like, like piece of the puzzle that separately is each, each piece is different, but in the end, you put it all together. So it's hard, it's hard to do the puzzle unless you see, you know, what, what the picture is, you know, what, what you're gonna make. And if, if you don't understand the pieces, they make the frame with the corners first and of course, and so I think it's a, it's a good way to add these situational, or I call it reset drills.

• 1:31:26Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:26Dean Lister?

  Or timing grade drills. It's really good to have.

• 1:31:30Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, and they go through, you know, everything from like, oh, how you spar on the ground, how you spar with takedowns, how you do.

• 1:31:39Jocko Willink?

  I guess we, we call it shoot boxing, where you're like boxing gloves, but you're doing takedowns. Uh, what do they call that? They call it kickboxing with takedowns.

• 1:31:49Jocko Willink?

  And then you still have to sometimes, as you said earlier, if, if we only do shoot boxing, and we never do wrestling by itself, or we never, we never advance to where we're doing a full sparring, then we're gonna miss something.

• 1:32:08Dean Lister?

  Yeah.

• 1:32:08Jocko Willink?

  So you have to, you have to, you have to mix it up to some extent, or it can be a problem.

• 1:32:19Jocko Willink?

  This is where it starts talking about basic ground fighting techniques. Basic ground fighting techniques build a funda- so all that like we we now we're getting in this is just talking about like how to run a program, how to set up a program, what the safety protocols are. And then it gets into the like the actual fighting. Basic ground fighting techniques build a fundamental understanding of dominant body positions and should be one of the primary focuses before moving on to more advanced techniques. Basic fight strategy. When two untrained fighters meet, they instinctively fight using the universal fight plan. They pummel each other with their fists until one of them receives enough damage that they cannot fight back effectively. Most forms of martial arts training are designed to make fighters better at executing this strategy.

• 1:33:02Jocko Willink?

  However, this approach has two drawbacks. One or both fighters are unarmed. Progress is solely dependent on the development of skill. Bigger, this is actually three drawbacks. Bigger, stronger and faster fighters have a natural advantage. Developing enough skill to overcome these advantages requires more time than can be dedicated to during institutional training. Well, that's a little bit of a weird thing to say because we already talked about and they already talked about the fact that it's going to take time. So you can't use that excuse here a little bit.

• 1:33:35Jocko Willink?

  The combatives program uses a more efficient approach. Fighting is taught in the context of strategy, the basic fight. Basic techniques serve as an edu- as an educating metaphor to teach the basic fight strategy. Fighters learn to defeat an opponent by controlling the elements of the fight. Range, angle and level. The number one element of a fight is range. The combatives program has four phases projectile, striking, clinching, grappling.

• 1:34:06Jocko Willink?

  This chapter involves soldiers, uh, pro- provides soldiers with these basic techniques at basic levels against an unarmed enemy. According to circumstances, surrounded conflict fighters can use these techniques to disable opponent or forces. The opponent to submit.

• 1:34:21Dean Lister?

  You know, we're talking about these four different like they're in the projectiles. That's actually something that's good.

• 1:34:26Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:26Dean Lister?

  Boss room, boss room, you say like you could throw a chair at someone.

• 1:34:29Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, for sure, for sure.

• 1:34:31Dean Lister?

  So one thing I noticed, Muay Thai, Muay Thai, which of course, great, great style, kickboxing, they kick with their shins, which that's how I kick. But if you have a boot on, if you block shin to shin with a shin, you have a strong shin, you're fine. But a boot hitting your shin, it's an issue, bro. It's an issue. So Savat from France, they have these little like wrestling with little metal tips though. It's like, they're not pointy, but if you block like Muay Thai and they have those little shoes on with the metal tip, your shin is, it's a problem. So interesting, based on how you're dressed, a boot, if you block your shin, a boot kicking your shin is going to be, let's say, not a winning situation for you. So I'm just saying, like, since we're looking at now, because I'm sure they're not, they're, they're thinking about having the uniform on, maybe body armor.

• 1:35:14Dean Lister?

  The boots, maybe not a boot, maybe shoes, but different, depends on how you're dressed. That's another thing too. However, I am on the side of Muay Thai. I'm on the side of, you know, there's even this, this style in Burma where they use head butts. It's crazy. It's pretty effective, by the way. You know, none of that throw headbutt, this kind of stuff. So I do think it's good to get the training.

• 1:35:33Jocko Willink?

  And it's nice when you got, when you got a helmet on.

• 1:35:35Dean Lister?

  That's true.

• 1:35:35Jocko Willink?

  Cause then you can headbutt somebody and it's like no damage to you at all.

• 1:35:39Dean Lister?

  And they won't like the result.

• 1:35:40Jocko Willink?

  It's good times.

• 1:35:41Dean Lister?

  Never sit yet. You know, so the way, you know, but if we spar with boots and you kick in the knees with boots, you know, it's gonna hurt. You're gonna get hurt real fast. Probably can't, it's gonna be more dangerous. We spar Muay Thai, you can learn how, in case someone had a boot on, how to defend it. You get the training from Muay Thai with the tactics and let's say the open minded way, that maybe the arm showing here. And you could adapt tactics for something like that. I think it's, it's good. I think it's good. To add the projectiles is actually a good detail.

• 1:36:06Jocko Willink?

  Well, yeah, and by projectiles, they also mean guns.

• 1:36:09Dean Lister?

  Okay, yeah.

• 1:36:10Jocko Willink?

  That's a projectile weapon.

• 1:36:11Dean Lister?

  You mean throwing the rifle at someone?

• 1:36:13Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:16Jocko Willink?

  Here's some, here's some like the, the basic concepts. Create space. When in combat, a soldier's primary goal to be established, should be to establish space between him and his attacker. A soldier must create enough space to transition to his primary weapon. So, so there you go. Maintain space. When in combat, soldiers may be unable to create enough space and transition to their primary weapon. If unable to do so, they may need to maintain space to transition to their secondary weapon, or close the distance, gain dominant body position, and finish the fight. So you want to create space, you want to maintain space, you might have to close the distance. When training soldiers, the primary goal should be instilling the courage to close the distance. The willingness to close with the enemy is a defining characteristic

• 1:37:00Jocko Willink?

  of a warrior, and the ability to do so against an aggressive opponent is the first step in using range to control a fight. This is something that I've talked about so much, because you get that question all the time. Well, is jiu-jitsu really the best thing for self-defense? And you've heard me give this explanation a thousand times. If I have space, I don't need any self-defense at all. I can get away from you and run away, and that's fine. It's when you grab me, that's when we have a problem. That's when I better know jiu-jitsu. That's when I better know how to grapple at least. Gain, so they say, close the distance. If you have to, if you can't, if you can't create space, or you can't maintain space, the next thing is you actually go on, on the attack, and you close the distance, you get in close, gain dominant position, and then finish the fight. That's their, that's the protocol

• 1:37:42Jocko Willink?

  that they give. And then it gets into ground grappling. Ground grappling provides a sound base. And by the way, I'm not reading the whole book, obviously, but it's skipping ahead to the ground grappling, basic techniques. Stand in base with a primary weapon, fighting stance, opposing grip, thumbs grip, wrestler's grip, thumb and thumbless grip, dominant body positions, rear mount, mount, guard, side control. And then it starts giving basic positions, basic moves, and it goes through, you know, basic finishing moves, rear naked choke, cross collar choke from the mount and guard, bent arm bar from the mount and side control, straight arm bar from the mount, straight arm bar from the guard, guillotine

• 1:38:23Jocko Willink?

  choke. Blood chokes attack the blood supply to the brain, air chokes attack the air supply. These chokes will take longer to cause unconsciousness.

• 1:38:34Jocko Willink?

  Gives joint locks, tapping procedures. That's always good. I think that's, I failed on that one when I, when I, when I hurt John Dudley, my buddy John Dudley. He pushed me? No, I didn't give him like a pre-brief. Okay. You know, like, hey dude, I just assumed that he would just tap. And it may or may not help because he was also kind of fired up, you know, John Dudley, go, go, go berserker mode, level nine. Oh, yeah. Uh, and he's a great athlete in like 29 different categories. So when he was going ham, you know, but I didn't give him a good, a good, uh, brief. So make sure if you're teaching someone,

• 1:39:14Jocko Willink?

  you tell them how to tap. Uh, then it talks about sweeps and takedowns and, you know, one thing that's interesting is it starts giving like how to stand up and base, which we all know, but how do you stand up and base with a weapon? Like, that's also something to think about. So they address a lot of these things that take a little bit of thought about how you're going to do it because you don't want to put down your weapon so you can stand up. No, you want to be able to, you want to be able to stand up while you're still holding your weapon.

• 1:39:46Jocko Willink?

  Fast forward a little bit again, you know, they talk about the fighting stance and the fighting stance allows the soldier to assume an offensive posture conducive to attack while still being able to move and defend himself. The fighting stance is not only perform, a platform for unarmed fighting, it can also be used for various weapons from close range contact weapons to projectile weapons. Just detail, man. The fighter keeps their chin tucked. The fighter looks just beneath their eyebrows at the opponent. The fighter uses a lead shoulder to block the side of the face. Just squared away, uh, you know, procedures and, and even the, the, the whole book, the manual's got every conceivable thing. I mean, fast forward here, the mount. The mount allows a fighter to strike the opponent with punches while restricting

• 1:40:28Jocko Willink?

  the opponent's ability to deliver effective punches, return punches. The mount provides the leverage to attack the opponent's upper body with chokes and joint attack. It goes through in detail, all these different positions and then, you know, uh, the guard.

• 1:40:45Jocko Willink?

  And all this stuff is same stuff we say, a fighter never wants to be under their opponent. The guard enables them to defend themselves and transition off their back into a more advantageous position. But yeah, that's what I was like, what are you gonna do in a street fight? Pull guard? No, no one says that. Not one person has ever said that in a serious way. They might have joked about it, but no one says pull guard in a fight. Guard is made you means you made a mistake. You messed up. That's why you're in guard.

• 1:41:13Jocko Willink?

  A fighter never wants to be under their opponent. Right? Exactly. We all agree with that. The guard allows the bottom fighter to exercise a certain amount of control over the range by pushing out or pulling in his opponent with his hips and legs. Yes. So there you go. I mean, and it's got tons of detail in this manual. And by the way, obviously this manual is unclassified. You can find it on the internet. It's but it's there. And if you want to look through it, go look through it. Learn, learn some stuff. Learn about intermediate ground fighting techniques.

• 1:41:49Jocko Willink?

  So then it starts talking about the intermittent fight, their intermediate fight strategy involves adjusting the basic fight strategy taught in chapter three to accommodate the unpredictable and varying varying nature of operations.

• 1:42:01Jocko Willink?

  Though learning basic combative techniques taught in chapter three, soldiers are instilled with basic fight strategy, the easiest way to impact a soldier's fighting ability. However, soldiers often find themselves in unpredictable situations that span the spectrum of operations. Therefore, soldiers must be prepared to adjust their fight strategy to fit the situation rather than making every situation fit the preferred strategy. So this is telling you to learn more and be adaptable and try different scenarios.

• 1:42:29Jocko Willink?

  And now you start talking about intermediate mount and side control techniques.

• 1:42:36Jocko Willink?

  Posting on the arms, posting on the side, larger opponent pins, wrists is just getting into more advanced stuff. How to pass the guard, attacks from the mount, attacks from the rear mount, it's just, it just continues to grow your skill level and eventually gets to grappling with strikes. Right? So now

• 1:43:00Jocko Willink?

  it says here, leaders should not make the mistake of practicing ground fighting techniques exclusively. Striking is an integral part of all types of fighting grappling with open and closed fist strikes. Force the fighters to ensure that they have positive control over their opponent's hands, which in turn can prevent the fighters opponent from striking them in the face or using weapons. This is what's cool about Eddie Bravo's combat jujitsu. Right? Because there's some positions in jujitsu. They work in jujitsu, but if you did them in a fight, they're not going to work so good when you're getting punched in the head.

• 1:43:31Dean Lister?

  Especially the palm, not just a slap, palm strikes like a punch. They're actually not as bone breaking as a punch with knuckles, but they steam more, they hurt, slaps hurt more than a punch.

• 1:43:42Jocko Willink?

  Oh, the slaps definitely hurt more than a punch.

• 1:43:43Dean Lister?

  They don't damage your face as much.

• 1:43:46Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:43:46Dean Lister?

  Like, like, like cut you, you know, break your cheekbone, things like that.

• 1:43:50Jocko Willink?

  Well, it's a different kind of pain, but I mean, getting punched is.

• 1:43:52Dean Lister?

  Can, the palm strike can, but that's, it was like, man, it was like, slapped on your chest, your back.

• 1:43:58Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah. The slaps to the ribs. The slaps to the ribs is like a torture.

• 1:44:03Dean Lister?

  Jocko myself, we've done this many times, like, remember, like, if we're having like one of those days, you start pulling the shirt up. And, and, and, bro, and then we got back and forth, like, we're still bros, but we're, it's like, okay, slap, slap, there's like, I think at some point, let's just, let's just calm down now. It's not funny.

• 1:44:18Jocko Willink?

  There's an escalation that could occur sometimes. And unfortunately for me, I'm usually getting the raw end of that escalation.

• 1:44:24Dean Lister?

  Depends on the day.

• 1:44:25Jocko Willink?

  I have to hope for a, for a peace out there. I remember one time when my kid, my son was probably like. Twelve, maybe? And we were training and I had a bad ankle injury. Speaking of, speaking of Sarge, Sarge shot a single on me. And like, I did something or whatever and it really hurt. I, it was one of the worst injuries I've had. And luckily it was Sarge and he like, as it was probably gonna break, he like, released and like, whatever, moved his weight. But my ankle's really sprained. And so I'm rolling, a couple of days later, of course, cause that's what we're doing.

• 1:45:08Jocko Willink?

  I had, I had like one of that, you know, the, the, the ankle braces that like lace up, super tight and they have like a, so I had one of those things on. So I'm rolling with my son and he's like 12. And, you know, I like get side control or something like half guard, I'm in half guard. And I like pull his shirt up a little bit and I slap him right on the ribs, that painful spot. Yeah. And you can see he's like trying to move and he can't really, and you can see it's like mad, right? And then you know, whatever, I transitioned to another position, he, you know, let him get up on top or whatever. He dives on a toe hold. He dives on a toe hold on my injured foot.

• 1:45:51Jocko Willink?

  And, you know, quite frankly, I probably should have tapped.

• 1:45:56Jocko Willink?

  I probably should have tapped, but obviously there was no way I was tapping to my own son. So I like escaped that. And this is the, this is, I've told you this story before, so then, then I got across side. And I was, I was, I was like, and I started, I did the, uh, paper cutter choke. Quickie? Yeah. And I go, I said something like, hey, I'm injured, you idiot. Do you, I don't, don't attack someone that's injured in their injured area and try and hurt them. Do you understand? Sorry, yes. No. He didn't answer. And he's just looking at me.

• 1:46:38Jocko Willink?

  And I'm looking at him and I go, do you understand? And he's, he's still pissed that I slapped him, right? So I, so I started applying the choke.

• 1:46:47Jocko Willink?

  And I'm applying it hard and I'm like, do you understand? He's still just looking at me. I'm like, okay, I'm gonna kill him.

• 1:46:53Jocko Willink?

  I'm like, okay, test of wills, he's gonna have to die. That's it. So I start, you know how you know that paper cutter choke, you go down, then you start going out? I was down and now I'm going out and he's starting to turn red and purple and finally he's like, I understand. I was like, what? He's like, I understand. And I was like, okay. And then we just kept training, you know, but yeah, dude.

• 1:47:12Speaker 02

  You had that coming to you, by the way.

• 1:47:14Jocko Willink?

  Oh, I definitely had it coming to me. Although, yeah, I had it coming to me.

• 1:47:20Speaker 02

  There's a debate of principle for sure, but you had it coming to you.

• 1:47:25Jocko Willink?

  Wait, what? Why?

• 1:47:28Speaker 02

  The slap thing?

• 1:47:29Jocko Willink?

  The slap thing, the slap thing, even though the slap thing is still done in, in fun, right? There's still a level of fun to it. There's no fun about trying to hurt someone that's injured.

• 1:47:39Dean Lister?

  Yeah.

• 1:47:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, but the argument could be made, hey, look, I'm not your son, I'm not you, so I don't know, but maybe some of us didn't sign up for that fun that day. See what I'm saying? That's good that it's fun for you. It really is. And congratulations.

• 1:47:55Jocko Willink?

  You know what, though? You gotta learn to control those emotions a little bit.

• 1:47:58Speaker 02

  It's part of the process. It's part of the process.

• 1:48:00Dean Lister?

  Remember, remember when, um, when you were back at City Boxing, came back from wherever, you had like Tom, you had Grady Mack, you had, you know, you had all these guys in the man, like ten seals, you had one Marine, who was, who was the, the force we got? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you got training and I was, I was, I was slapping them like because they, they were down with it, uh, because they were getting ready for like deployment. It was like, uh, and I was talking smack to them. I'm like, um,

• 1:48:23Dean Lister?

  uh, request permission to go, go back to base. Mission, mission not accomplished. And I go, no, say it. Mission scrubbed. Request permission. And anyways, that was a game. But then again, there's just some fired up guys and it was like the game. So the average person, I wouldn't, you know, just cry across the body. But the son, yeah, injured foot, understood.

• 1:48:41Jocko Willink?

  So what's your, what's your assessment? Echo says I'm wrong.

• 1:48:45Dean Lister?

  Um, it's kind of mutual, like, like, like you and I, we do it because we think it's funny, it's statistically funny. By the way, Jocko has his days. He, he makes me feel kind of ashamed sometimes. It's a mutual thing. It's just different. I don't know why. I've done it for such a long time. We've always trained that way. We've always trained that way for sure. Risk whatever.

• 1:49:03Speaker 02

  You know how, okay, so this is, I think this is true. So you know rattlesnakes, right? When they're like not full grown, when they bite, they say they're more kind of dangerous, right? Cause they can't control their venom. So consider your 12 year old kid, right? You're like, okay, we're going, we're going street level or whatever, right? Cause there's such thing as street rules. So, okay, we're going street rules. And that's what I would say the slap is. I mean, it's, it's usually mutual and kind of understood in this way.

• 1:49:29Dean Lister?

  But someone might misunderstood it and like go hand out like really hard.

• 1:49:32Speaker 02

  Exactly right. You don't just do it to anybody. So.

• 1:49:35Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah. I'm not rolling like a random person and.

• 1:49:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, start the thing.

• 1:49:38Dean Lister?

  Has to be your friend or your enemy.

• 1:49:40Speaker 02

  Exactly right. And why, and why don't we do it?

• 1:49:43Jocko Willink?

  No, actually, you wouldn't even really slap, rib slap your, your enemy. That's sort of like dumb move, right? That's, this is just like, you know, general friendly harassment.

• 1:49:53Speaker 02

  Yes, yeah, friendly harassment. Exactly right. So, but the reason you don't do it to like a stranger or something is like, you don't know the reaction. They don't, they don't, they're not under that element of control that your friends are. Now 12 year old kid, who's to say where he's at mentally? See what I'm saying? Apparently.

• 1:50:09Jocko Willink?

  Apparently he's in vengeance mode.

• 1:50:11Speaker 02

  He's like a little rattlesnake where he's like, okay, we were taking it to that level. We'll take it to that level. He didn't know though. He didn't know what that means as far as the translation to what he can do, you know? So he's just going for, what's he going for?

• 1:50:21Jocko Willink?

  Bro, jumping on that toe hold.

• 1:50:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:50:24Jocko Willink?

  And cranking.

• 1:50:26Speaker 02

  Like I said.

• 1:50:27Jocko Willink?

  Cranking.

• 1:50:28Speaker 02

  You had that coming to you, sir.

• 1:50:31Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I don't know, man. I guess, I, I, no, I, you, you, you're probably right, man. Yeah.

• 1:50:37Dean Lister?

  A toe.

• 1:50:37Jocko Willink?

  But to me, that escalation, I guess, you know what it is? Part of it is, for me, this was just like a way to make things more fun.

• 1:50:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, I would actually agree with that.

• 1:50:47Jocko Willink?

  You know, like Dean, Dean, like, there's a certain level of, if Dean and I get in that zone, there's a certain level of, it's just a way to make it a little bit more fun, a little bit more consequences.

• 1:50:58Dean Lister?

  The other day training Jocko, like I was having a good day and um I'm like Neon, we call it park bench. Remember park bench? It's like your shin is in the face, you can't move and I'm like, alright sir, straighten your legs. I'm trying to make him like lie against the wall straight, but he won't let me do it.

• 1:51:15Dean Lister?

  So, so you're bending, it's like your back's on the wall, you're on your side and someone's shin is in your face and your stomach, you're just like fuck man. It's called park bench. It's worse than your stomach, it's a very demoralizing situation. Jocko did it back to me of course, but, but yeah, it just makes it fun.

• 1:51:29Speaker 02

  And it looks real bad too.

• 1:51:31Dean Lister?

  Yeah, it looks pretty bad.

• 1:51:33Jocko Willink?

  The humiliation level's high for that one.

• 1:51:37Dean Lister?

  When you're on the bottom, you're like, you feel, you feel like, I don't know why I'm here, bro. I made several mistakes too, yeah. For anyone not, not aware, a toe hold is basically grabbing like your toe and doing that, but for your toe and it's actually, your arm is more flexible than your, than your ankle or your knee. So it's actually, it can be a damaging move for anyone wondering what a toe hold is. Grabbing the toe, twisting the ankle, therefore the knee as well.

• 1:52:01Speaker 02

  Yeah. For the record, uh, I don't think necessarily that you were in the wrong. In fact, I think that your son was kinda technically in the wrong, but a little rattlesnake, you can't expect him to control, he had to know the line all definitely.

• 1:52:15Dean Lister?

  Or he was tactical, who was strategical? Which one was tactical and strategic? Was that a strategic?

• 1:52:19Speaker 02

  Strategic or versus tactical?

• 1:52:20Dean Lister?

  Strategically, he's trying to make him do a tougher, better fighter, young man. Tactically, was it a good?

• 1:52:26Jocko Willink?

  Tactically, maybe I shouldn't have let him out.

• 1:52:30Speaker 02

  Teach him a long lasting lesson.

• 1:52:33Jocko Willink?

  Imagine, imagine the, the thing that I, I will say is like, it surprised me, right? It surprised me that he dove on the toe hold. Cause he, he had the weird combination of Dean Lister and Jeff Glover game, you know? Cause he, he would train with Dean Lister and Jeff Glover, so he had these weird heel hooks and like toe holds and then he's like doing weird flexible things. So anyways, you gotta watch out for that stuff.

• 1:52:58Speaker 02

  There is this element too, where I kinda went over this with you real briefly one time in our whole life where, okay, so, and Dean, you could probably understand this too. Okay, let's say we roll, right? And I, in my mind, I just know, I believe like you're just so much better than me and we're rolling, I'm just trying to, you know? But at the end of the day, I know like you're just so much better than me. I'm 12 years old or I'm me and you're you or whatever, right? Let's say, okay, you tapped me out, Dean. You tapped me out real quick. And then I'm like, oh, man, cool. And then I like act like I'm gonna walk away and then I jump on your back and we start rolling again. Right? Just kind of like half joking, but we still go and roll or whatever. You kind of concede a little bit where it's like, okay, I see what's going on. Like, we're in a real training scenario. We wouldn't do that, right?

• 1:53:41Jocko Willink?

  So Dean's gonna escalate.

• 1:53:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, and he can escalate. He can figure it, but I'm saying like-

• 1:53:45Jocko Willink?

  What you did was an escalation, by the way.

• 1:53:47Speaker 02

  Yes, but it's half joking. You see what I'm saying? It's like, yeah, hey, what's that over there? And then you jump on me, right? Yes, yes, exactly.

• 1:53:54Dean Lister?

  What took the time? Yeah.

• 1:53:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly right. So, yeah.

• 1:53:58Jocko Willink?

  I'm, I'm, I'm, now, see, there's a, there's a like a legitimate, like you escalated. If you just jumped to someone's back, even though you quote unquote are joking, you still got their back and now you're trying to choke them.

• 1:54:08Speaker 02

  What's funny is that's exactly what he said, dude, on that one. And he was like, you indicate, I forget your words, but you indicated that like, like, don't do that. Like, we're not trying, like-

• 1:54:17Jocko Willink?

  Oh, you mean you did it to me for real?

• 1:54:18Speaker 02

  Yeah. Oh, yeah. Been for a long time ago. I used to always do that kind of stuff to you.

• 1:54:21Jocko Willink?

  And then I was like, hey, bro. What did I say? Did I say something to you? That's weird.

• 1:54:25Speaker 02

  When we actually talked about it, you're like, you're, you, I forget your exact words, but you weren't down for that. Like, it's not as that.

• 1:54:33Jocko Willink?

  Look at that, dude. You found me, like, you, but call me out.

• 1:54:36Speaker 02

  Put it this way, I was surprised because it's not like you did anything. You know, it's not like you said, hey, don't, you know, don't do that or nothing. Cause you never said anything like that. But when you indicate, oh yeah, you're not down for that, I understood. But you have to understand, I wouldn't do that if we had a real compet- it was like, you're so much better than me. So, yeah, I'm gonna jump on your back and I still don't expect to get the better of you, even if I jump on your back because you're so much, it's like that attitude, I think. So that could have been what your son had in his mind a little bit too, though.

• 1:55:04Jocko Willink?

  You're just gonna go for it.

• 1:55:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, like, I, I mean, obviously Dean's not gonna do that.

• 1:55:08Jocko Willink?

  Dean will do that.

• 1:55:09Speaker 02

  Wait, you go for your injured?

• 1:55:10Jocko Willink?

  Hell, yeah.

• 1:55:11Dean Lister?

  No, no.

• 1:55:16Jocko Willink?

  There you go. There's some protocols, there's some etiquette, right? Sometimes gets violated, sometimes grayers. I'm, I'm probably wrong. Kid's 12, should be nicer. Should have been a nicer, uh, nicer dad. Sorry about that, kid.

• 1:55:31Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, we talked about grappling with strikes and all that and it goes through some of those things and then it gets into like advanced ground fighting techniques and north-south escapes and north-south, like all those things, chain attacks and how everything's connected. So, so leg attacks, Dean Lister. Huh. This section covers the advanced leg attacks. These techniques are taught as a way to change the fighter's position into a submission. Although the techniques are advanced, they still present the same amount of hazard as attacks learned at lower levels. So we've got some ideas behind that as well. Reading an opponent's moves, I mean, this is just a thorough, a very thorough book about

• 1:56:16Jocko Willink?

  combatives. Um, and they just did a good, great job with it and a lot of the theories that are in here just cover what we know and they do it in a very professional way. Yeah. In a very thorough way. And, and again, the last thing that it talks about is competition and the spirit of competition, the competition principles, you know, um, that he says, this is important, two things, we'll finish with this. Combative techniques are too dangerous for competition. Although many techniques are too dangerous for live competition, many benefits can be gained by competing even when using a limited set of techniques. So there are some things that are too dangerous. And then it says, risks of competition outweigh the benefits.

• 1:57:01Jocko Willink?

  Many programs have failed because there was no motivation to train. Competitions are a useful tool to motivate both soldiers and unit leaders to emphasize combatives training. So, competition, very important and there you have it. Um, like I said, great document, um, outstanding job by the Army for moving in that direction. That's incredible, yeah. Yeah, and, and the Marine Corps has the MCMAP, we could go through that, Marine Corps Large Program, the, I know, special operations, well, I know in the SEAL teams, we moved in that direction as well, uh, around the same, actually, I don't know, I don't know time-wise, but we, we all end up in the same place.

• 1:57:43Jocko Willink?

  And you know, the theory here is like, you gotta compete, you gotta learn, you gotta test, you gotta get better. You know, you know the saying, keep it real? Hmm, yeah. You ever say that, Echo? You ever say, hey, keep it real? I say it from time to time, yes, sir. Dean, you ever say, keep it real?

• 1:57:58Dean Lister?

  High school, maybe.

• 1:58:00Jocko Willink?

  I actually, I actually say, keep it real. Like, almost, and I, I kinda just throw it out there, like, if I'm, you know, someone goes, hey, what's up? I'll be like, oh, you keeping it real, like that? You know, kinda just, whatever.

• 1:58:10Dean Lister?

  Sure.

• 1:58:10Jocko Willink?

  Kind of a throwaway comment.

• 1:58:11Dean Lister?

  Sure.

• 1:58:13Jocko Willink?

  But I was thinking about it, it's actually a good attitude to have. With combatives, with fighting, with life, keep it real. And that's what I think this does, keep it real, don't allow for the lies. The lies. You gotta test, you gotta learn, you gotta adapt, you gotta improve, then you gotta retest. And you can do that with fighting, and you can do that with everything in life, and that's how we become better fighters, and that's how we become better people.

• 1:58:40Dean Lister?

  Yeah.

• 1:58:42Jocko Willink?

  So that's my recommendation, man. Train, get out there.

• 1:58:48Jocko Willink?

  Anything else on combatives? Dean Lisch?

• 1:58:50Dean Lister?

  Combatives. Well, we're looking at that fine balance of training, something you can train, you can replicate it over and over, without getting really injured or hurt.

• 1:59:01Dean Lister?

  With also, including some realism as far as getting ready for the actual threat that you will face. Such as, by the way, if you grapple on concrete all the time, um, it's gonna suck. Now, you wanna be aware, for instance, one time, actually, I fell, uh, for some reason, uh, on the concrete with my, my hand, broke my hand. Uh, because, we have mats. So, I, actually, I know how to fight if, if it aren't on mats, but I, I, I made a mistake. I should open my hands at the right time. These are things I have to keep in mind, but, then again, you need, you wanna train on mats, right? So, so, why not, why not always train on concrete? Well, because, your knees will be jacked up, you'll hurt your head, you're gonna break your elbow eventually. But, um, you wanna be aware of that. One thing, it was, it was one of, Sergeant knows him and all the guys in Puerto Rico, when I was there for,

• 1:59:47Dean Lister?

  for a few weeks after the hurricanes, working, we're just delivering water, that's all.

• 1:59:52Dean Lister?

  One guy, and you probably know him, I don't know his name. The story is, the guy was a ex-tier one, whatever, I don't know, SEAL, I think SEAL, became a cop. But he was ranked top ten in the world with shooting, but, where your hands are here, and you reach, it's a quick draw. The guy's like ranked top ten in the world, is at the quick draw, where your hands are above Eddie. So, he, he got stuck up, like, he was off duty, someone actually pulled a gun on him, he went like this. Because he's so trained to do that, he still won, killed, he drew on the draw. I mean, the guy was, I mean, that's how fast this guy, he's still, he's still, it's considered like, you're not supposed to draw if someone is already, you know, it's considered dumb. This guy is too fast, so, so he actually went from here and still eliminated, you know, survived from the guy, I don't think he, he made it, the guy with the loaded gun, trying to rob him.

• 2:00:35Dean Lister?

  But the thing is, that training of him being so fast is good, but he didn't need to do this. He's trained so much to do shoot from here, he still won, but that's a wasted movement. Think about that, so he still won. So that right there, that kind of training, I think for quick draw is good, but then again, don't put your hands up here. Maybe that actually played into the whole, okay, he's compliant. Maybe it's actually good, but I'm saying, it's a waste, they were saying how he still survived because he was trained, so, so that was just, and you know the guy, I don't know his name, but that was Sarge and all the guys in there, like, it's a tight community. So I think it's good to have that middle ground. We're looking for the middle ground, you want to replicate things, you want to be able, do it in a relatively safe environment, but always be, be prepared for what is going to happen potentially. That's why I like what the army is doing, it's a guideline, there's some flexibility there, I think.

• 2:01:17Dean Lister?

  Of course, leg locks, you know the story about the Russian, you know, actually, the first time I learned leg locks before, chokeholds in a seminar, Nikolai Baturan, he's a Soviet champion, Osamo, Altatar was there, other Russians were teaching and they were saying like, the reason they prefer leg lock is because, um, back in Russia, I'm with my wife, she's very attractive. And I go to a bar, a strange man grabs her inappropriately, I'm very upset, I break his arm. Now he goes to the vehicle, gets Kalashnikov, he comes back and dead. I'm like, bro, I'm eighteen years old, man, I don't know. Like, but imagine another scenario, guy grabs my girl very inappropriately, I break his leg, takes a long time to go to the vehicle, get Kalashnikov.

• 2:02:00Dean Lister?

  It's true, there's always some kind of use for it, I'm like, it makes sense, you know, I'm already with wife at home, sleeping in bed.

• 2:02:09Dean Lister?

  I was actually supposed to leg locks before chokes, believe it or not. So yeah, it's all good to have the open mind.

• 2:02:13Jocko Willink?

  Well, uh, but chokes are part of sambo as well.

• 2:02:16Dean Lister?

  Um, combat sambo in USA illegal because this is back in Steven Seagal days. They thought choke holds you die, you know, like, you know, so in sports, sambo, sports, sambo, I think combat sambo is not illegal, but it back then it was. Um, you can do straight arm lock, not even you can do Kimura in sambo.

• 2:02:34Jocko Willink?

  Just straight arm lock and straight knee lock.

• 2:02:36Dean Lister?

  If you have an arm lock and I stand on my feet, it's illegal submission now. Restarting your feet. So that's, that's an escape from a submission. Just stand on your feet. If I stand, I have nothing but my, my feet are the only thing that's pushing around. Stop. All submissions are illegal. So, yeah.

• 2:02:49Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And at some point they probably had some reason for that. Like, like if I pick you up and now I could drop you on your head. So therefore it's not, it's not going to work anymore. When we actually know you let that evolve a little bit further. And now I'm gonna, when you start to pick me up, I'm gonna grab your ankle and I'll hold you and keep you down. And so you need to let things evolve naturally.

• 2:03:08Dean Lister?

  Yeah.

• 2:03:09Jocko Willink?

  Rules don't help that usually.

• 2:03:11Dean Lister?

  I agree. I agree. Yeah. Well, I, I won two time nationals. I'm champion of sambo. I was like 19. And the third time I was going to get third, I was going to be a three time, but then I got in the finals and the guy, he went mate, but he stood up. So it means they give up. He's a judo guy. He got his arm locked. Ah, mate. It's illegal submission. Um, and my feet were crossed around the neck. They go, it was almost choke with minus one. So I got, he won minus one to zero. So I lost. So I took second place one year. Unfortunately, but that's okay.

• 2:03:37Jocko Willink?

  So you're a two time champ and then one time.

• 2:03:39Dean Lister?

  Yeah. Sambo is a tough sport. It's good. I like Sambo. Russian martial arts. Very, very good.

• 2:03:43Jocko Willink?

  And the combat sambo is really awesome.

• 2:03:45Dean Lister?

  MMA with, with the jacket. Yeah. MMA with the jacket. Yeah.

• 2:03:49Jocko Willink?

  Well, I mean, look at Fedor.

• 2:03:50Dean Lister?

  Fedor.

• 2:03:51Jocko Willink?

  Fedor was a, was a sambo champion.

• 2:03:54Dean Lister?

  Yeah. Combat sambo. So was Khabib, you know? Yeah. Tough.

• 2:03:58Jocko Willink?

  Would you say Khabib is more of a wrestler?

• 2:04:00Dean Lister?

  Yeah. Yeah. But he's, he's done judo sambo. But yeah, he's, his style is very much, is very suited for, for noy. Yeah.

• 2:04:06Jocko Willink?

  You're smashing people. Smash.

• 2:04:08Dean Lister?

  Smash. He's a tough guy. Tough guy.

• 2:04:11Jocko Willink?

  All right on. Awesome. All right. Well, appreciate everyone for listening. Thank you.

• 2:04:16Dean Lister?

  Can I mention something real fast?

• 2:04:17Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 2:04:17Dean Lister?

  Anyone looking to August 7, 8, 9, Costa Rica, we're running a jiu jitsu camp. And if he was on Instagram, interested in training, it's for all, all skill levels. Uh, Ron from uh, BJJ, Hero BJJ Retreats is a good guy to contact if he was interested in high level Jiu Jitsu for three or four days in beautiful Costa Rica, working your Spanish, your ten and your leg locks. Hit it up.

• 2:04:43Jocko Willink?

  Right.

• 2:04:44Dean Lister?

  Hero camps in Costa Rica. I'll, I'll see y'all there.

• 2:04:47Jocko Willink?

  And you can post it on your Instagram as well.

• 2:04:49Dean Lister?

  Yeah.

• 2:04:49Jocko Willink?

  So that way people, when they hear this, they can follow the link or whatever.

• 2:04:53Dean Lister?

  Absolutely.

• 2:04:54Jocko Willink?

  And go there and, and check that out. I mean, that sounds like a rough deal, going to Costa Rica and doing Jiu Jitsu. How long is it?

• 2:05:00Dean Lister?

  It's, well, it's three, it's four days, four days, yeah.

• 2:05:04Jocko Willink?

  That sounds like a good time. When is it?

• 2:05:06Dean Lister?

  August seven, eight, nine. So, so everyone arrives the six, seven, eight, nine, and the tenth is like, is like a free day. So it's like four days on it.

• 2:05:14Jocko Willink?

  Awesome. Yeah. Check that out. If you want to go learn some Jiu Jitsu from the Boogeyman.

• 2:05:18Dean Lister?

  The Boogeyman.

• 2:05:19Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, the Boogeyman. Check it out. Thanks for supporting the podcast. Go to JacoFuel.com. If you want to get some of these drinks, by the way. Which are freaking good to go. They taste delicious. Used to be, couldn't say that.

• 2:05:34Speaker 02

  Well, some of us could.

• 2:05:35Jocko Willink?

  Well, you'd be like, oh, they taste good. Now different, different ballgame.

• 2:05:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, you're reformulated to perfection, I think.

• 2:05:42Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. So, so get yourself some of that. That's uh, you know, the, the energy drink thing.

• 2:05:51Jocko Willink?

  The reason we made them, look, I was on deployment. We used to drink other brands of energy drinks that were filled with sugar.

• 2:05:57Dean Lister?

  You drink too many of those things?

• 2:05:58Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:05:59Dean Lister?

  Yeah, you got like.

• 2:05:59Jocko Willink?

  For sure. And you feel awful.

• 2:06:01Dean Lister?

  It's even worse, not worse than drinking, but I mean.

• 2:06:03Jocko Willink?

  It's not, it's horrible for you.

• 2:06:05Dean Lister?

  It's bad.

• 2:06:05Jocko Willink?

  And so that's what happened on deployment. It would be like that. And that's why when at Jocko Fuel, you know, it was like, hey, do you? Brian asked me, he's like, do you want to do an energy drink? And I was like, hey. I would only want to do that if it was possible to make them like actually good for you.

• 2:06:19Dean Lister?

  Yeah.

• 2:06:20Jocko Willink?

  And then he was like, let me come up with a formula.

• 2:06:22Dean Lister?

  To start with your cranberry white tea. Is that how it started?

• 2:06:24Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's how it started.

• 2:06:25Dean Lister?

  Chocolate is white.

• 2:06:27Jocko Willink?

  Prominent white tea. What did you say chai? Is that what we're saying?

• 2:06:37Speaker 02

  Well, pomegranate's not as obvious, you know, so I get it. I get it. I got you.

• 2:06:40Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, but there is a benefit. There is times when you need energy.

• 2:06:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:06:44Jocko Willink?

  So you might as well get it and you might as well not have a bunch of sugar in there and have an overload of caffeine that makes you jittery and crazy. Just get something that's smooth, good, clean, energy, good for you. That's a Jocko Discipline Go. Jocko Fuel dot com. You can get it at Wawa. You can get it at Vitamin Shop. You can get it at HEB down in Texas. A bunch of we're, we're, we're spreading. I need to, I need to get a list. Remind me, I gotta get a list of all the places you can get Jocko Fuel. So there you go.

• 2:07:12Dean Lister?

  You have demand for it in Brazil now.

• 2:07:13Jocko Willink?

  I know, I know. We got it. We got it down in Australia too.

• 2:07:18Dean Lister?

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:07:18Jocko Willink?

  Uh, there's, we have a distributor down in Australia. So that's going forward. So yeah, we're spreading because it's good. The milk is good. The joint warfare is good. The super krill is good. So it's all good. And that's what people kind of know now. Like we're making the good stuff. We're making the goods. Get yourself some of that. OriginUSA.com. Making gis, jujitsu gis. You want to train that jujitsu gi.

• 2:07:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:07:46Jocko Willink?

  You want to train that jujitsu gi because it's going to make your, all your game better. Gi, no gi, if you do gi, it's you're going to get better.

• 2:07:55Jocko Willink?

  I think your defense gets better when you wear.

• 2:07:58Dean Lister?

  Cause you're stuck more.

• 2:07:59Jocko Willink?

  Cause you're stuck more.

• 2:08:00Dean Lister?

  Yeah.

• 2:08:00Jocko Willink?

  Your offense gets better when you don't have a gi on because you have to do it really tight.

• 2:08:06Dean Lister?

  You have to keep advancing more.

• 2:08:07Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:08:08Dean Lister?

  With no gi because people slip out easier.

• 2:08:10Jocko Willink?

  Yep. Yeah. Well, you should get a gi that's made in America, not by slave labor, but by, made by hardworking Americans. That's my recommendation. OriginUSA.com. We got some hunt gear on the way. Actually, what's today? I should be hitting my, I should be getting some, the first like production stuff coming soon.

• 2:08:28Dean Lister?

  Jocko, can you make a gi that's just like sandpaper?

• 2:08:35Jocko Willink?

  No.

• 2:08:38Jocko Willink?

  The origin geese are so. Yeah.

• 2:08:40Dean Lister?

  Yeah.

• 2:08:41Jocko Willink?

  They're so good. They're a different thing. Yeah. They're there. We are spoiled now.

• 2:08:44Dean Lister?

  Yeah.

• 2:08:44Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. My first jiu jitsu gees were like.

• 2:08:47Dean Lister?

  Bloody.

• 2:08:47Jocko Willink?

  Nasty.

• 2:08:48Dean Lister?

  Bloody.

• 2:08:49Jocko Willink?

  Awful to wear.

• 2:08:50Dean Lister?

  Yeah.

• 2:08:51Jocko Willink?

  So, don't do that. Go to originusa.com. Get yourself some jeans, boots, hunt gear, jiu jitsu gear. We got it. We got you covered. Made in America, all of it.

• 2:09:00Dean Lister?

  It's true.

• 2:09:00Jocko Willink?

  Good stuff. To the bone.

• 2:09:02Speaker 02

  Speaking of apparel, Jocko has a store as well. It's called Jocko's Store. Dean Lister has his own shirt.

• 2:09:07Dean Lister?

  Yeah, yeah, we're gonna have this.

• 2:09:08Jocko Willink?

  Is it out? Is it live?

• 2:09:09Speaker 02

  It's been live. Actually, we haven't really.

• 2:09:12Jocko Willink?

  This one that says foot yet?

• 2:09:13Speaker 02

  Foot.

• 2:09:14Jocko Willink?

  Okay, so it's a, so it's a takeoff on the good shirt.

• 2:09:17Dean Lister?

  Yeah, shut up at the. We're like, what the?

• 2:09:20Jocko Willink?

  It, it start off with the good shirt, which had my head on it. And then the Echo shirt, which said dang.

• 2:09:27Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 2:09:28Jocko Willink?

  Which had your head on it, which I designed. And then who designed your shirt?

• 2:09:32Dean Lister?

  Dean. Well, I came up with just, I did it like in 20 minutes, just as a joke. I wore it to the park. And he was like, oh, I more liked it.

• 2:09:37Speaker 02

  It looked good. Yeah.

• 2:09:39Jocko Willink?

  So if you don't know, Dean Lister is notorious and famous for changing the, the realm of jiu jitsu by attacking the feet and the legs and the knees. And so he made a shirt with his head on it. We made a shirt with his head on it. And instead of saying good, it says foot.

• 2:09:57Speaker 02

  Yep. Same style. It actually came out really, really good.

• 2:10:00Jocko Willink?

  Oh, Jack.

• 2:10:01Speaker 02

  Yeah. Also, yeah, some new, some new stuff on there. Discipline equals freedom. Standard issue.

• 2:10:06Jocko Willink?

  Standard issue.

• 2:10:07Speaker 02

  Many colorways.

• 2:10:08Jocko Willink?

  Look at you with the big words. You talk, I feel like I'm talking to Pete Roberts over here, talking about colorways and whatnot.

• 2:10:14Speaker 02

  Hell, yeah. Hey, you taught me it. So, yeah.

• 2:10:16Jocko Willink?

  Did I actually teach you that? You knew that.

• 2:10:18Speaker 02

  It sounded familiar, but you're the one who said colorways and explained it. I was like, okay. I heard, I might have heard it before, but I've never used it till just now.

• 2:10:27Jocko Willink?

  Thanks. That's really dipping your toes into the fashion industry when you start saying colorways. But colorways, I think, can be used to describe like, uh, uh, like cars or like, like, you know, anything. Anything, anything that could be made in multiple colors, I believe, they, the, in the industry, they use the term colorways. Like sneakers, sneakers.

• 2:10:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:10:50Jocko Willink?

  I think that's how I know it. From sneakers. Someone's talking to a, a sneaker professional, who was like, yeah, we gotta offer these different colorways. And I said, okay.

• 2:10:58Speaker 02

  Little combos of colors.

• 2:10:59Jocko Willink?

  There you go.

• 2:11:00Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, there you go. We got colorways. But anyway, yes, call it the standard issue discipline equals freedom shirt. It's good. It's new. I didn't blow it up yet, but you know.

• 2:11:10Jocko Willink?

  All right. So you can check that out.

• 2:11:11Speaker 02

  Also, we got the Shirt Locker, which is a subscription situation. If you didn't know, um, you know, new designs, every, every month you get a new shirt, a new design, a little bit more, uh, creative. That's what I'm not at right now.

• 2:11:21Jocko Willink?

  You haven't advanced, you haven't gotten very creative on your creative description.

• 2:11:25Speaker 02

  No.

• 2:11:25Jocko Willink?

  Creative yet, so.

• 2:11:26Speaker 02

  You know why? Because all the creativity goes into the designs. You see what I'm saying? Not the descriptions of the designs. That'd be like a meta descriptions. You see what I'm saying? Either way, they're good. Uh, great feedback on that one. So check that out at jocko'sdoor.com.

• 2:11:39Jocko Willink?

  All right. Thanks, everybody. Subscribe to the podcast. Go to jockounderground.com. Here's some underground podcasts. Check out YouTube where I'm the assistant director. One of the best, apparently, one of the best out there, you know, the best assistant director. Just keeping Echo Charles tight on stuff. Psychological Warfare, flipsidecanvas.com. Dakota Meyer making cool stuff to hang on your walls. I've written a bunch of books. Read them if you want. Echelonfront, echelonfront.com, Leadership Consultancy. That's what we do. We solve problems through leadership. So if you want help inside your organization, go to echelonfront.com for details. Next up is Atlanta. October 12th through the 14th, the muster.

• 2:12:22Jocko Willink?

  It's gonna sell out. They all do. So we'll see you there. Also, we have an online training academy, just like jujitsu. You're not gonna get, you're not gonna get good at fighting in one day or one week. You gotta do it all the time. That's why we made the academy, Extreme Ownership Academy, extremeownership.com. Come and learn how to lead and live. That's what it's gonna do for you. And if you want to help out service members, active and retired, their families, Gold Star families, check out Mark Lee's mom, Mama Lee. She's got a charity organization. It does outstanding work supporting our warriors.

• 2:12:57Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 2:12:58Jocko Willink?

  And if you want to help her out or you want to get involved, go to Americas Mighty Warriors dot org. Also check out Micah, Micah Fink, he's got Heroes and Horses dot org. Just got out of the field, I think, today. Bunch of dudes been out in the field for forty-one days, riding horses, sitting in cold water, eating raw meat. Just getting back, back to it. And so check that one out. And if you want to check out Dean, Dean's on the gram, on the Instagram. He's at Dean Lister BJJ. That's right. I cannot be held accountable for some of the things that he posts.

• 2:13:39Jocko Willink?

  Some drama. You go to some dark places in weird times. So if you wake up in the morning and and there's posts from Dean Lister at three o'clock in the morning, hey, uh, what's that? Be advised, right? Be advised. It's random. You might be offended. You might be disgusted. Very possible, yeah. Man, he sent me one the other day. Was that a post from Instagram, the guy getting cut in the neck? Oh, that was, it was sent, it was sent to me. Yeah, I mean, it was like a horrible scene of, of a guy. There's like, it looks like your typical kind of couple drunk dude, like three, four drunk guys, you know, gonna fight another three or four drunk guys, and they're kind of talking smack to each other. And then one of the guys like pulls out a knife in kind of that kind of like way, like, oh, I've got a knife out, you better back off. And the other guy's sort of

• 2:14:24Jocko Willink?

  like, well, you wouldn't do anything anyways. And it just sort of seems like this kind of innocent. It's crazy. Kind of, I mean, as innocent as it could be pulling out a knife, it was that innocent. Right. And I'm saying as, it didn't look like the intent was, we're about to murder somebody. And the one, one dude that doesn't have a knife comes kind of like walking over like, oh, what are you gonna do? Cut me? Like with that kind of look on his face, but, but not expecting anything to happen. And in a millisecond, in a millisecond, the dude like swings at him with the knife and cuts his throat. And the dude is dead in ten seconds. He passes out in five seconds and he's probably dead. So another reason, don't get in street fights. Don't get in street fights. They're stupid. You get stabbed in the neck, you could break your hand, whatever, anything in between.

• 2:15:09Jocko Willink?

  So don't do that. But if you want to check out Dean Lister on Instagram, there he is, Dean Lister On the Twitter, on the Gram, on Facebook, I'm on there as well. Echo's on there. Echo's at Echo Charles. I'm at Jocko Welling. Watch out for the algorithm, by the way, because I think they're gonna grab you, it's gonna waste an hour of your day. You're gonna take an hour from you. Imagine that. A monster that came in every day and took an hour from you, or two hours from you. You can't get it back. That's the algorithm monster. It's gonna get you. So, that's it. Thanks to all the soldiers, sailors, airmen, and Marines who continue to find ways to fight better in every respect. Thanks again to Matt Larson for driving this initiative in the Army. I know there's, like I said, I know, I'm sure there's a bunch of other people that helped out. I know that he was leading the charge,

• 2:15:54Jocko Willink?

  so salute to him. And the rest of the military personnel that are out there putting these skills to the test on the battlefields, thanks for what you do. Also, thanks to police and law enforcement. Do what you can to get out there and train. You need it. We need it. Also, firefighters, paramedics, EMTs, dispatchers, correctional officers, Border Patrol, Secret Service, all the first responders, thank you for keeping us safe here in our own country. And to everyone out there, go train. Train whatever you can. Train wrestling, train boxing, Jiu-Jitsu, Muay Thai, train Judo and Sambo, and train with guns and knives and bow and

• 2:16:37Jocko Willink?

  arrow, and test, and learn, and adjust, and get better, and it will make you better in every aspect of life. Just go train. And until next time, this is Dean, and Echo, and Jocko. Out.