Manipulation Expert: Success Isn’t Luck, It’s Rigged | Robert Greene

🚀 Main Street Over Wall Street is where the real deals get done. Join top investors, founders, and operators for three days of powerful connection, sharp strategy, and big opportunities — live in Austin, Nov 2–4. https://contrarianthinking.biz/msows-bigdeal In this episode, Robert Greene discusses the intricate dynamics of power, communication, and human behavior in both the personal and professional realms. He emphasizes the importance of observation, understanding ego, and navigating workplace politics while also exploring the nature of authenticity and the role of storytelling in influence. Codie and Robert dive into the balance between fear and likability in relationships and the challenges of finding inspiration in adversity. Download my FREE Smart Buyer's Guide for Acquiring Cash-Flowing Businesses in 2025 HERE: https://contrarianthinking.biz/4iD1WtP Want help scaling your business to $1M in monthly revenue? ⁠Click here⁠ to connect with my consulting team. Chapters 00:00- Understanding Power Dynamics in Business 03:08- The Art of Writing and Communication 06:13- The Importance of Marginal Notes 09:06- Navigating Workplace Politics 12:08- The Role of Ego in Professional Success 14:57- Recognizing Toxic Influences 17:50- The Interplay of History and Human Nature 21:12- The Nature of Authenticity 24:04- The Subtlety of Seduction and Deception 27:09- Observing Human Behavior 29:46- The Complexity of Authenticity 33:13- The Role of Storytelling in Influence 41:10- Playing the Power Game 42:50- Strategic Thinking vs. Tactical Hell 45:10- Leveraging Power and Long-Term Thinking 45:46- Fear vs. Likability in Relationships 51:02- The Sublime and Personal Transformation 55:06- Finding Inspiration in Adversity 01:00:54- The Importance of Authenticity in Writing 01:06:01- Understanding Anti-Seductive Traits 01:10:50- Creating Mystery in Relationships 01:15:56- Words of Wisdom for the Younger Self MORE FROM BIGDEAL: 🎥 ⁠YouTube⁠ 📸 ⁠Instagram⁠ 📽️ ⁠TikTok⁠ MORE FROM CODIE SANCHEZ: 🎥 ⁠YouTube⁠ 📸 ⁠Instagram⁠ 📽️ ⁠TikTok⁠ OTHER THINGS WE DO: 🫂 ⁠Our community⁠ 📰 ⁠Free newsletter⁠ 🏦 ⁠Biz buying course⁠ 🏠 ⁠Resibrands⁠ 💰 ⁠CT Capital⁠ 🏙️ ⁠Main St Hold Co⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  I don't want you to crush your enemy totally. I want you to be aware that that happens in business all the time.

• 0:06Codie Sanchez?

  I have wanted to interview this man for years. He is one of my favorite authors of all time. He wrote 48 Laws of Power.

• 0:14Speaker 00

  At this very moment, there are vultures circling around. We're going to buy your business out and crush you. It's a merciless environment. And what that signals is you're weak, we can play you, and the next time around, we're going to negotiate the hell out of you. I don't want you to be like that. I want you to be.

• 0:29Codie Sanchez?

  What do you think is the most underrated human truth that a young person should know who wants control or power?

• 0:36Speaker 00

  The most important skill that you can have is the.

• 0:39Codie Sanchez?

  Wow. Is there something that you do when you are feeling absolutely no way you can write?

• 0:45Speaker 00

  Well, you know, it's almost a question that makes me want to cry. I'm so sorry.

• 0:51Codie Sanchez?

  This is the Big Deal Podcast and I'm Codie Sanchez. I am so excited, you guys. I have wanted to interview this man for years. He is one of my favorite authors of all time. I even embarrassingly told him that today. And if you, like me, want to understand power, you want to understand how do you seduce someone? You want to understand how do I get my way? You want to understand why is it that this person isn't doing what I want them to do? Are these people actually out to get me? What is the truth of the situation that no one will tell me? Robert Greene, I think, is one of the few people in the world that will tell you the truth. He wrote the very famous book 48 Laws of Power, which he gave me a copy of right here.

• 1:34Codie Sanchez?

  He wrote another favorite book of mine called Persuasion. He's actually written seven books that have sold millions of copies, all about this idea overarching of how do we communicate and how does power exist? We talk about human nature through the decades and centuries, the things that are true consistently, what to do in order to not be anti-seductive, and what a young person should know that no one else will tell you. I hope you enjoy this conversation with Robert Greene as much as I did. I hope you tell me in the comments how I did because I was very nervous and I didn't sleep last night thinking about this interview. And hopefully you give it a ton of views, likes, shares, and you subscribe so that

• 2:18Codie Sanchez?

  I can have him back because I have about 452 other questions for him. So if you have questions for Robert too, put them down below. I promise you, next time, we'll go even deeper. Without further ado. The one, the only Robert Green. Do you think best when you write or when you speak or when you read?

• 2:38Speaker 00

  Um, wow. I mean, uh, when I'm reading, I'm, I'm doing a lot of thinking and I have a very active way of reading. I, uh, I take notes and I write in the book and the margins of the book. And if I don't like a book, which happens every now and then, I'm like crossing everything out and I'm writing F you on the margins. No. I argue and I talk with the book as I write it. But, um, you know, uh, when I'm talking, um, sometimes I don't feel like I'm bringing my ideas as clearly as I'd like to. So I really think best through the form of writing, but, um, I've always handwritten my first drafts.

• 3:20Speaker 00

  Now I can only handwrite because I can't type. I used to be a very fast typist. Now I can't because of my stroke. So, um, I handwrite and there's something about, because you know, you're, you're younger. People who are younger, they don't even know what handwriting is anymore. It's like something that, you know, from, from thousands of years ago, as far as they're concerned. But when you handwrite, it's a different feeling than when you type. There's more of a direct connection between the hand and the brain than the computer. So I feel like when I'm writing, I'm kind of scratching on the page, something that's in my ear that I'm hearing.

• 3:59Speaker 00

  It's getting a little bit hard to describe right now, but I'm actually going through that as I'm writing this chapter at home, which I'll be returning to when I leave here.

• 4:08Codie Sanchez?

  I love that. I actually, I, I feel similarly. I, um, I think best when writing.

• 4:13Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 4:13Codie Sanchez?

  And that ability to, yeah, it's almost like an emotional transfer via the pen is hard. You, I mean, you could type hard on the keyboard, but you can't get outside of the lines, right? There's some like sort of structural process to it that you're bound by within the computer.

• 4:31Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 4:31Codie Sanchez?

  Whereas with a pen, you get to, this is your sword. You get to do with it as you will. You can't really constrain you.

• 4:36Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 4:37Codie Sanchez?

  And I always liked that same, same thing. You know, it it's funny because the last time I reread your very first book, um, Forty Eight Laws of Power, it was uh, on the computer, or I guess on the iPad. And so I forgot about the

• 4:52Speaker 00

  Yeah, I don't know with the iPad or the ebook. I don't think they do include the

• 4:58Codie Sanchez?

  They don't. Yeah.

• 4:59Speaker 00

  So.

• 5:00Codie Sanchez?

  But this is so magical. It's actually astounding. More people don't copy you in this age of everybody copying everything. With this really signature margin you have that it does almost feel like I'm talking somehow.

• 5:11Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 5:12Codie Sanchez?

  To you and this is your personal book.

• 5:13Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 5:14Codie Sanchez?

  How did you come up with that idea?

• 5:17Speaker 00

  Well, um, you know, it's it's twenty six years ago, or more than that, twenty eight years ago when I started writing it.

• 5:24Codie Sanchez?

  That's wild.

• 5:25Speaker 00

  So it's, um, but it kind of came together in this organic way.

• 5:32Speaker 00

  I remember, I'm Jewish and I was bar mitzvahed when I was thirteen years old. And before that, you have to go to Hebrew school.

• 5:40Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah.

• 5:40Speaker 00

  You have to read the Torah in Hebrew. So I learned Hebrew. And when you read the Torah, there's the Torah, the passage from the Bible. And on the margins are commentaries of the passage written by authorities from thousands of years ago. That idea must have sunk in my head as kind of hmm. Authorities on the margins kind of commenting on the material. And I've read other books that have that have done that. It's very rare. But somehow I felt like there were these amazing fables and stories that I had researched. But I can't incorporate them in what I'm writing. I want to have several voices going on at the same time.

• 6:23Speaker 00

  So each of the material on the margins, which are quotes from books, they're fables. They're all they're from all different sources. They're like a conversation that is happening with what I'm writing. I'm like commenting on it through them. So there'll be a famous fable from uh, from the ancient Greek writer Aesop's fables.

• 6:45Speaker 00

  That explains in a kind of very elemental, almost childlike way, a story about power. And it relates directly to what I've written there. I just find that a very powerful form of writing, right?

• 6:57Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah, and it sticks with you.

• 6:59Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 7:00Codie Sanchez?

  It does. Yeah, there was one of them. You just handed me this beautiful version of the book. In its 25th anniversary edition, is that what this is?

• 7:08Speaker 00

  It is, well, it was 2023 was the 25th anniversary. God, we're already in 2025.

• 7:14Codie Sanchez?

  I know.

• 7:15Speaker 00

  It came out a year and a half ago.

• 7:16Codie Sanchez?

  We are getting old. And there's this one, I was gonna start somewhere else, but I want to start here.

• 7:20Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 7:21Codie Sanchez?

  A story about Kissinger that involved a report that Winston Lord had worked on for days. And after giving it to Kissinger, he got it back with a notation, is this the best you can do?

• 7:31Speaker 00

  Right.

• 7:31Codie Sanchez?

  Lord rewrote and polished and finally resubmitted and came back with the same curt question. And after drafting it one more time, once again, getting the same question from Kissinger, the Lord snapped, damn it, yes, it's the best I can do. To which Kissinger replied, fine, then I guess I'll read it this time.

• 7:50Codie Sanchez?

  What? What are you imparting with that story?

• 7:54Speaker 00

  Well, um, sometimes the best kind of communication isn't necessarily direct. So if I tell you exactly what I want, Cody, in some report or anything, you might get a little bit rebellious. You might go, hmm, I thought I'd written it perfectly, you know? If I tell you exactly what to do, you're gonna be just mimicking me or something. But if you signal to somebody else that what they wrote may not be quite right, it makes them think, right? Instead of I just criticize directly and they get all emotional and all of a sudden, and you say something directly about what you didn't like. If you just say, is that the best you can do?

• 8:37Speaker 00

  It makes the other person go, hmm, no, maybe I can make it better, right? It's a form of communication that's very powerful. And I'm very interested in that because. We're people who are too verbal. We tell people exactly what we think, exactly what we want. We give instructions to people. But if you can be clever and you can kind of indicate and you can kind of send them in a certain direction, it's a much more powerful form of communication. Kissinger was kind of a master of that.

• 9:05Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah, it's an incredible story. You know, I was pushed out of two companies before. And both times, it's because I violated rule number one.

• 9:15Speaker 00

  Oh, but well, I have, I believe I violated it several times before I wrote the book.

• 9:20Codie Sanchez?

  Interesting. So the first rule-

• 9:22Speaker 00

  So what happened? Tell me what happened.

• 9:24Codie Sanchez?

  Well, the first rule is never outshine the master, right? And, and both times, I, almost like a small child with a painting that, you know, you hand drew to give to the parent. I kind of, you know, won an award, grew a business line for another business and brought it like this little excitable child to the, the larger partner at both firms that I was working on at the time.

• 9:49Speaker 00

  What kind of firms are these?

• 9:51Codie Sanchez?

  Finance firms, private equity. And, and basically thought that this was me showing what I'd learned and how smart I was to this person. And isn't this great? And look at what we're doing. And quickly realized, oh, they wanted to be on the cover and not me. And me taking that, I should have instead brought it to them and said, you should be on here as opposed to taking it for myself. And so it took me literally two go rounds until I finally realized my mistake.

• 10:19Speaker 00

  Did they fire you or?

• 10:21Codie Sanchez?

  Well, no, both times it was more subversive to your point. It was, you know, little workarounds. And, you know, let's put resources to this company and not Cody's segment of the company.

• 10:32Speaker 00

  Yeah, exactly.

• 10:33Codie Sanchez?

  Non-direct communication. And I didn't know to play the game. I was so linear and so direct and missed so many EQ signs.

• 10:41Speaker 00

  Well, you know, that's, that's what the, that's why I wrote the book, you know? I wasn't somebody who had a lot of power when I wrote the book. In fact, I was somebody who didn't have any power, you know? I had many different jobs. I, I worked in Hollywood. I didn't, wasn't very successful. But what happens with a lot of people like myself is you enter the work world naive. Nobody tells you anything about these are the rules. This is how people can be so tricky and political. They have these egos that if you say the wrong thing or you step on their foot in some way, you're gonna pay a price. Your parents don't tell you these stories. College professors, for God's sake, don't tell you these stories. The people, your bosses never want to talk about this.

• 11:25Speaker 00

  Nobody wants to talk about it. So sweet little innocent Cody enters the work world or Robert. And you're just, you're just being yourself. You're just thinking, I'm gonna impress them. Aren't, you know, just doing a good job. Isn't that what matters? No. Ego, politics, playing, you know, making other people look good. That is 90% of the game, especially when you're starting out. Nobody talks about it. It's like a dirty little secret. Well, it's not a secret. It's really how the world works. That's what I wanted to reveal in there. So I violated law number one because naturally, like you, I had a job on a television show. I was a researcher and you were, you were judged by how many stories you ended up having

• 12:10Speaker 00

  produced through your research. I was by far the best one. I had like well over 30 where the next person had like 10 or so, right? And I thought I was just doing fantastic. And then I was fired. And I was fired because in a meeting, the, that person above me was thinking, Robert has an attitude. He's not listening. He's not being respectful. So she started, she started laying into me again and again and again, till she finally fired me. I didn't understand that it wasn't about researching hard and coming up with the best material. It was about playing the game, the way she would, making her look better and not me look better. I learned the hard way. And so I want other people to understand it's okay to have ideals.

• 12:55Speaker 00

  I don't want to make you all cynical, but you have to be realistic. You have to understand that the people you work for have an ego. And you have to feed their ego and not violate it and not make them feel insecure.

• 13:08Speaker 02

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• 13:20Speaker 03

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• 13:24Codie Sanchez?

  It's so true, and I think it's hard for people to take that in because, like you said, it's almost like you're violating rule number one to the masses by exposing the fact that we don't talk about this, and yet it's true.

• 13:38Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 13:38Codie Sanchez?

  And so I know you got a ton of pushback when you came out with this first book. I also saw that I was going back through old articles with seduction, too. The same thing. You kind of said the quiet part out loud. And I was wondering, what? When you're young, what percentage of people do you think actually realize that there is this undercurrent of how reality works that is true? Like, is this something normal for people to understand now, 25 years later, after you wrote this book? Or do people still not understand that being direct isn't always going to get you what you want?

• 14:14Speaker 00

  It's, you know, if I had to put a percentage on it, and I've thought about this, and it's not scientific by no means, I think about 5% of people actually understand these laws intuitively. And I can't explain why. I don't think it's genetic. It's just there's something to it, where they understand, for instance, always say less than necessary, law number four. They understand that if they talk less, they're not going to say something stupid, and people are going to look at them as if, hmm, they have an aura of mystery and they're powerful. They know that. They don't need to read Robert's book. They understand it's in their DNA. And they're people who generally, you know, get very far in life, okay?

• 14:59Speaker 00

  And they can often be a little bit more amoral and unethical, you know, than the rest of us. But the majority, the 95% of us, we don't know these things, right? Because some of them seem counterintuitive.

• 15:16Speaker 00

  One law that people have actually criticized me a lot for, I think it's number 10, is infection, avoid the unlucky and the unfortunate. And they assume that I'm saying, just avoid people who've had bad luck or who are victims. And it's not at all what I wrote, and you have to read the chapter to understand. But the idea is, sometimes people enter your life, and they're all dramatic, and they're very charismatic, and they have all these stories to tell. And usually the stories are about how somebody did something terrible to them. They're the victim, right? There's all this drama surrounding their lives. And it seems kind of interesting, and you become their friend, right? And slowly, slowly, you get embroiled in all of their drama.

• 16:01Speaker 00

  They have arguments with you, they turn against you, then they reconcile. And you find yourself getting infected with their ugly energy, and down and down and down you go. It's counterintuitive to think that somebody who's super dramatic is actually masking, they're creating the drama that is surrounding them. We don't think that way, and I'm trying to show that you have to be a little bit wary about people, you can't just take them at face value.

• 16:29Codie Sanchez?

  Well, you know, you've-

• 16:30Speaker 00

  You're shaking your head like you've had that experience.

• 16:33Codie Sanchez?

  Oh, yeah, for sure. I mean, not only have I had the experience, I've, well, there's a lot of data that supports it, right? You know, there's data now that shows, I saw a study done on a thousand companies, where if you sit within a 25 square foot radius of somebody who's considered a high performer, you're 15% more likely to outperform. And if you sit next to a low performer, you are 30% more likely to underperform.

• 16:58Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 16:59Codie Sanchez?

  And so, you know, there's actually even just a more aggressive downside to those who are negative or infectious in that way.

• 17:07Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 17:08Codie Sanchez?

  And I was wondering, when you start researching this, where do you think, where is the data the most important? And where is history most important? Because in all of your works, it seems like there's an interweaving of the two. You know, there's a throwback to Churchill and a story about World War II. And then there's also the scientific data that we cover about findings and studies that show

• 17:33Speaker 00

  Right.

• 17:34Codie Sanchez?

  the reality.

• 17:37Speaker 00

  Well, back when I wrote the Forty Eight Laws of Power, there wasn't really the Internet. And the studies about power, if you can do studies about power and have data, weren't very, there weren't very many of them, right? So I had to go through a pretty intensive research process, hundreds of books, reading all about the most famous people, you know, like a Kissinger. And that was my form of data.

• 18:03Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah.

• 18:04Speaker 00

  So when I read all these stories of very powerful people, kings, queens, courtesans, financiers, you know, the whole slew of them, I'd see trends. And that trend would signal to me a reality about human nature. So the two are, are interwoven. My research and my going through history was the evidence, was the scientific material that I based it on, as well as my own experience. So I, you know, I've said it before, but prior to writing The Forty Eight Laws of Power, I was not a successful person, I have to admit. I had fifty, at least fifty, sixty different jobs.

• 18:45Speaker 00

  My wife and I once counted and we went back and I think there's even more that I forgot. And I had so many bad bosses, so many people who were so political, so stupid, so incompetent, not all of them, of course, that I had all of this material, right? I had stored up all of these stories in my blood about these people who were so manipulative. And I had studied them and I, and I had the pain inside of me of having made these mistakes. So the book is a combination of my own kind of personal pain about the work world. It's not all bad, there were some great things too. My own personal pain and this deep level of research.

• 19:28Speaker 00

  So if I found a story from three thousand years ago, from ancient China, that revealed something about one of the laws, and I saw something in the nineteen seventies, I go, well, there's something very true, very real about it. There's something deep in human nature that, that confirms this particular law. So does that answer your question?

• 19:49Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah, yeah, it's, you're almost like an anthropologist in a way, kind of going back through human nature over the decades.

• 19:56Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 19:56Codie Sanchez?

  Well, over the centuries. What about, um, do you think?

• 20:03Codie Sanchez?

  Do you think that those who are, maybe how they would be labeled today, narcissists, or sociopaths, or dark triad, are they the type of people that understand this undercurrent of humanity better than a normal person? A quote-unquote, I don't even know what a normal person is. But do the darker aspects or avatars of human nature, do they understand these laws more than a normal person?

• 20:29Speaker 00

  I made that comment earlier, that some of that 5% may be people who are what you're talking about. I don't think all of them are. I don't think everybody who's really good at power and has a good feel for it, has these dark qualities. It's a mix of things. But there's a very famous, there's not a, there's a man who's quite well-known on the internet about 15 years ago, I don't know where he is now, named Sam Vakman. I don't know if you've heard of him. Sam Vakman admitted that he was an incredible narcissist, a very dangerous, dark narcissist, who manipulated people terribly. And he came to a point where he saw this about himself. And he realized he can't control it.

• 21:14Speaker 00

  This is who I am, but I'm going to educate everybody about what narcissism is. And he's very brilliant, and his self-analysis is extremely accurate. But the thing is, he's very rare. So people who are like this, they don't think that they're narcissists. They don't think that they're evil. They don't think that what they're doing is manipulative, or they're even operating by laws. These are just things that come naturally to them. So, you know, that makes it easier for them to do the things that they do, right? So, you know, and so not all of us, I don't want to imply that in doing this book, you're going to turn into a narcissist. You're going to have to have these very dark qualities.

• 22:00Speaker 00

  You know, it's just that you want to be aware of them. So these other people, they're not aware that they're behaving this way. I don't want you to crush your enemy totally. I want you to be aware that that happens in business all the time, and not be naive with your company that you've, as an entrepreneur, this business that you created. At this very moment, there are vultures circling around who are going to buy your business out and crush you because that's how business works, right? It's a merciless environment. I don't want you to be like that. I want you to be aware of it. I want you to be aware that there are people like that out there. That is sort of the point of the book.

• 22:37Codie Sanchez?

  One of the lines, I don't think it's a law per se, and I can't remember which one it was related to that I go back to often, is Sun Tzu's, "Give them a golden bridge, give them a golden bridge on which to retreat." And I can't tell you how many times I've used in deals and in business, the opposite of what you just said, which is crush your opponent, which would be like a positive aspect from this book and persuasion, which is actually, for your enemy, let them look like they have a win. And that's like a beautiful way to actually do the opposite of what you've said. And I've gotten out of many a deal because of you, actually. I owe you some checks.

• 23:16Speaker 00

  Really? How are you applying that? I'm not quite sure I understand.

• 23:19Codie Sanchez?

  So like, for instance, we had a deal that we wanted to close, and the guy had committed a little fraud. He had done a few things inside of the business.

• 23:31Speaker 00

  On your side or the other side?

• 23:32Codie Sanchez?

  On the other side. So we had done a transaction, they had said a bunch of things on paper, were X and Y and Z, and then once we had dug in, we were like, ooh, that's not correct. So whether it was, you know, that they realized it, or had written the numbers incorrectly, who could tell? And one side of us wanted to do, you know, we wanted to go do a lawsuit. So one of my partners was like, well, we have them, this is incorrect, we could own way more of the company, let's go after them. But instead of doing that, we kind of said, whoo, we think there was a mess up, a mess up in these numbers, and somebody wrote it incorrectly, and it's not a big deal, we can work around this, we've got to change the math a little bit on how much of the company we get, but, you know, actually, I think we can just change this number, you guys can walk away, we can walk away.

• 24:15Codie Sanchez?

  And so we gave them this kind of golden bridge on which to retreat. We could have sued them.

• 24:20Speaker 00

  You mean, you cut off the deal?

• 24:22Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah, we kept the company and kept some economics, but let them walk away without a lawsuit.

• 24:27Speaker 00

  Uh huh.

• 24:28Codie Sanchez?

  And that I don't-

• 24:29Speaker 00

  You were buying them out?

• 24:30Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah. And I think a lot of your book, people talk about the manipulative nature of it, but I don't think that's always the case.

• 24:37Speaker 00

  No, no, definitely not.

• 24:39Codie Sanchez?

  There's a lot of really beautiful aspects of the book that are so relevant to business.

• 24:43Speaker 00

  Yeah. I mean, if you're alienating everybody, if you're crushing all of these people, if you're just having lawsuit after lawsuit after lawsuit, there'll be a bounce back effect where you won't have many allies next time you're in trouble, right? People will resent you, you'll have more enemies on the horizon. And when you slip up in this media crazy era, all those enemies will suddenly come out of the woodwork and they'll be on social media. And, you know, the mobs will come after you and you'll suffer for it. So there's an aspect of power where you have to play the soft game. We have to please as many people as possible, make allies,

• 25:24Speaker 00

  make them think that they're doing what they want, but in fact, they're doing what you want, which is the art of seduction itself, you know? And so, you know, that is a, that's a huge part of the power game. It's not all about, it's not a book about being aggressive and violent and pushing people around. It's the opposite. It's giving the impression that you're a nice generous person, but that somehow you get people to kind of do what you want through being clever.

• 25:53Codie Sanchez?

  For young people today, who maybe are not even going to be able to get through this whole book or persuasion given attention spans, what do you think is the most underrated human truth that a young person should know? Who wants control or power?

• 26:10Speaker 00

  Well, you know, it's a good question. I mean, there's many aspects, you mean like a particular law of power or?

• 26:20Codie Sanchez?

  Could be, or it could be something that sits with you, that you're like, hmm, I want to talk about this more. I think young people should think about this more.

• 26:27Speaker 00

  Well, okay, well, what I would say is the most important skill that you can have in, in the work world, in the business world and in life, is knowing how to observe people and not be so wrapped up in yourself and be out or directed. So. When you're in a situation like you've entered a job for the first time, your tendency is to be all insecure and think, did I say the wrong thing? Am I dressing correctly? Am I fitting in? And you're not observing, you're thinking about yourself, right? And the whole game is to be observing. It's like you're observing the world, the different games that are going on, what people are doing, what they're like, what their tastes are like, what the boss is like. There are all these levels of power going on.

• 27:13Speaker 00

  You want to get outside of yourself and simply observe, right? And not be thinking about yourself as much. And if you become a really good observer of people, which is something that I developed over all of these different jobs that I had. I wasn't necessarily the best person figuring out the game, but I was very observant about people and their nature and their flaws and such. If you become an astute observer of the people around you, the game will be much easier to manage, right? You will know, this is a person who is insecure. I cannot offend them. I cannot say the wrong thing to them. This is a person who's strong and secure. I want to be with them. I want them to mentor me. They can, you know?

• 27:57Speaker 00

  You want to be able to take criticism from other people. In other words, be less insecure and be more kind of outer motivated and paying attention to the people around you.

• 28:07Codie Sanchez?

  And so it sounds like sort of half the battle is sort of naming what other people are. So saying like, ah, this happened. Robert did this thing, which tells me he cares about how he's perceived. Perception and relevance is important to Robert. So I'm going to name a person like that.

• 28:23Speaker 00

  Right, right.

• 28:24Codie Sanchez?

  And so often, when you're young, you're just thinking, I, I, I, me, me, me. You don't even know to name another.

• 28:29Speaker 00

  Right.

• 28:30Codie Sanchez?

  Interesting.

• 28:31Speaker 00

  Well, the thing also that you want to understand is Everything is a sign. So when you're observing, another thing is enjoy this aspect of it because it's actually a lot of fun. It's like watching a movie and observing people and understanding them. But everything people do is a sign. So if they're showing up late at meetings or they're not returning your phone calls, it's not some innocent event. It means something. It's coming from some place within them. They're telling you something about themselves indirectly. If their desk is a mess, right, they can't organize their desk. It's a sign of something else going on inside them, right? If they're not returning your phone calls, on and on and on.

• 29:16Speaker 00

  Every little thing that people do. I, sometimes when I read an email, I can sense that there's a little bit of anger as an undertone. You can sense people's tone, not just in what they say, but in how they write something, right? There's a lack, there's not this usual kind of polite tone. There's a little bit of a sharpness. There's a word or two that indicates that they're upset, they're angry. Every little thing that people do is a sign. You're not paranoid because it's actually a lot of fun. And you're decoding what's going on because people wear masks. They smile and they say, I love your ideas, Cody, you're brilliant, you're wonderful. But inside they're thinking something else. And you have to be able to pick up all of these signs.

• 30:01Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah. It seems like a lot of us have lost a lot of that gut intuition. Like we don't, we're told to not trust your first instinct.

• 30:10Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 30:10Codie Sanchez?

  You know, we're told to not cross the street when we feel a certain way because that could be rude to somebody else. We're sort of continuously being told to mask this feeling we get in our gut. How do you reopen that again? Like if you're sitting in a room with a bunch of people in the workplace and you're trying to figure out how to play this game. What is the mental game Robert plays to sort of pick up these undercurrents that somebody might not be able to see?

• 30:38Speaker 00

  Well, I wrote a book called The Laws of Human Nature, sort of my last book. And I have a very long chapter in there about nonverbal communication. And it's extremely important skill to develop. And what that means is, people can say anything they want to with words. In fact, they generally do. They never really exactly say what's on their mind. That's how it is in the social world, because if you said what was exactly on your mind, you would be offending a lot of people, right? So we don't ever really say exactly what we feel. But our body language does not lie. It's very difficult to lie with your body language.

• 31:20Speaker 00

  Even the finest actors in the world find it very difficult to lie with their voice, because the voice reveals people's feelings, right? So you want to be observant. We're very good at picking these kind of cues up. So you may not realize it, but you sense that something is wrong about this person that you've just met. This is something that I talk a lot about in The Art of Seduction. I've dealt with with women who've written me back. They had a gut feeling that this man that they met was wrong. There was something bad about him. They got a bad feeling from it. But what happens is you don't trust that feeling. And then, because you're not, as you say, in our culture, it's not something that we value.

• 32:05Speaker 00

  And then we go on, we have a relationship, and then we find the hard way out, that our original gut instinct was the correct one. So you want to trust these feelings. They're very valuable. We are animals. We think we're all so intellectual. We've got our frontal cortex that governs everything. But inside, we operate on emotions, on instincts, on feelings, on sensations. It's a non-verbal form of communication. It comes out in people's gestures and how they move, how they stand, right? They're at a party, you're talking to them, but their feet are pointing in a different direction. They're not so interested in you. Their eyes reveal if they're really listening to you or not.

• 32:49Speaker 00

  A real smile lights up the whole face. A fake smile's all kind of tight. That's wonderful, I really like, right?

• 32:57Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah.

• 32:57Speaker 00

  On and on and on, it's insane language. You can understand exactly what people are thinking. But you have to do this to be able to reach this kind of level of understanding. You have to shut off your own mind. You have to shut off all your internal chatter. And you have to observe and you have to see, you know, exactly what, try and read and detect what that particular sign means. And you won't believe how often you are very accurate with it. You can detect people's resentment, people's envy. And I, as I said, I wrote a whole chapter about signs that you can look at tomorrow and learned about this language. It's just that you're not paying attention and you don't value this form because we're

• 33:40Speaker 00

  so verbal, we think everything has to do with words, but it doesn't.

• 33:44Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah, you know, you've said seduction is a form of deception, but people want to be led astray.

• 33:50Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 33:51Codie Sanchez?

  What do you mean by that?

• 33:54Speaker 00

  Well, um, when you're a child, um, you, you were kind of really interested in stories, right? We're all, we still are interested in stories. But what you like about stories from a very early age is the fact that a writer is leading you in a certain direction, but you don't know where they're going, where they're taking you, right? And you want to be led and they're creating an illusion and they're taking you along this journey, okay? And so they're seducing you through a story. And you can call it lies, you can call it fantasy, you can call it illusion. But reality is kind of harsh, it's kind of difficult.

• 34:38Speaker 00

  And we all want more pleasure in our life. That's why we go and see movies. That's why Hollywood is so successful.

• 34:45Speaker 00

  We want to be taken out of our day to day lives. We want to be led. We actually want to be deceived. We want illusion. We want fantasy. We want pleasure. And so you want to be the person that's supplying that fantasy, that's giving people that pleasure. Because if you do, it gives you a lot of power, right?

• 35:04Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah, it's so true. And yet, not said ever, which I feel like is a consistent thread through all of your books. It's where's the quiet part that we can say out loud that we shouldn't say out loud?

• 35:16Speaker 00

  Right.

• 35:16Codie Sanchez?

  In every single segment of our life, which I love. And also, another line of yours that I love is, "When you meet a swordsman, draw your sword. Do not recite poetry to one who is not a poet."

• 35:27Speaker 00

  Those aren't my words. That's somebody else's. But yeah, it's, you've got to know the people that you're dealing with, right? And you have to understand, as you said, you're naming these people, which is the way you put it, which is a very good way of putting it. And some people are vultures. Some people you can't trust. Some people are tricky. And if you treat them as if they are somebody that you could trust, you're going to be in a lot of trouble. Okay? So you have to understand who the people are that you're dealing with. What is their nature? You know, are they somebody that you can actually trust?

• 36:08Speaker 00

  And sometimes you think that you can trust them because you're not really paying attention. You're not paying attention to those gut things that we're talking about. So I can think that comes from a chapter about know who you're dealing with and know exactly the kind of energy that you're getting from people so that you're not dealing with a swordsman and reciting poetry, in which case you're going to get stabbed and killed. So you have to know each person that you deal with.

• 36:35Codie Sanchez?

  You know, you're really a student of history in so many ways and human nature. In that vein, It seems like today, more than ever, we value directness and transparency. And they're very direct and they're authentic and authenticity wins. And this is sort of this narrative of today. Has that actually always been the narrative? Like, have humans always said we want to be authentic and to real and rect? So this is kind of a new phenomenon, even though it might not be true.

• 37:05Speaker 00

  Well, it's a pattern. So history goes in patterns. So I'm not going to bore you with too many history lessons, but in the 18th century, the theater was the was the main metaphor for being social. So you never wanted to be exactly yourself. You were playing a role when you entered in the social world, when you entered a cafe. You were playing a part, you were an actor in a play. You didn't want to reveal who you really were. It was the opposite. And then later, there was a reaction against that in the early 19th century among the Romantic movement, where we have to be authentic. We can't be, we can't wear these masks anymore. Goes back and forth, back and forth, back and forth throughout history. So right now, it's all about being authentic.

• 37:50Speaker 00

  In 10, 20 years, people are going to react against that and they're going to be more into fantasy and role playing and wearing those masks and having fun in the social environment.

• 38:00Speaker 00

  But I would say to this is, nobody is ever authentic. It's a myth, it's bullshit, in fact, and it kind of is annoying. Because to be a human being is to be social and is to wear a mask, is to be an actor. As I said, nobody ever tells you exactly what they think. That person that you think is so authentic is actually creating the effect of authenticity. They know how to act like that, right? But they're not saying or doing exactly what's going on in their mind. So understand that we're all actors. From a very early age, as children, we are learning to play a part,

• 38:43Speaker 00

  how to please people, how to make them like us, how to say the right things. So the person that seems to be authentic is actually playing that part of being authentic.

• 38:54Codie Sanchez?

  So if somebody called you authentic, would you like that? Is that a compliment?

• 38:59Speaker 00

  Well, um, yeah, I think it's a compliment. I mean, there are degrees. Don't get me wrong. There are people who are very fake in this world, and there's absolutely nothing authentic. So the person that we perceive as authentic, there's forty, fifty percent of them is actually true, is actually coming out. They're not faking it. But I'm never, what I'm trying to say is they're not a hundred percent authentic. There is always an element of playing it up, of laying it on a little bit thicker, of trying to look a little bit more authentic. I'm not saying it's completely fake.

• 39:33Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah.

• 39:34Speaker 00

  But there's an element of role-playing in it.

• 39:37Codie Sanchez?

  And I guess maybe it also is just like a play, as you mentioned. Because if somebody is authentic, what you're really saying is, you're playing your part very well. That appears to be who you are. You're a great actor.

• 39:47Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 39:47Codie Sanchez?

  And if somebody's fake, what you're really saying is, you're not doing so great. I can see right through whatever mask this is. It's uninteresting, actually.

• 39:54Speaker 00

  You put it very well.

• 39:55Codie Sanchez?

  That's fascinating. I've never thought about it that way. I also...

• 40:00Speaker 00

  I mean, there are politicians who we think are authentic. And I see them on television. And I go, God, no, they're not authentic at all. They're just really good at giving the appearance of being authentic. They know what they're doing. They've learned over the years by various successes and failures and trial and error, that this is what gives the impression of being authentic.

• 40:25Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah. Yeah, we were, we were in a room at a political fundraiser. For somebody that I actually think has done a good job as being a politician. But then he answered a question, which is, what was it? The question was, who is your biggest role model in the world? Who do you look up more to than anyone else? And his answer was, you know, his mother and this sort of story about his mother that just came off so scripted.

• 40:52Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 40:53Codie Sanchez?

  It almost negated everything he had done prior and the fact that I even liked his policies.

• 40:58Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 40:58Codie Sanchez?

  And so the downward, or the downside of even a moment of pure bad acting or fakeness can be actually quite large.

• 41:10Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 41:10Codie Sanchez?

  So if you don't know how to play, which kind of, there's another line, and I don't know if this is yours or from a quote, but the most ethical thing you can do is win. And to win, you have to play the game better than the villains.

• 41:25Speaker 00

  That's for me?

• 41:26Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah, this is from your Twitter. What do you think about this line? What do you think is meant by that? To win, you have to play the power game better than the villains.

• 41:37Speaker 00

  Well, um, so I'm not sure because it's not exactly something I've ever written. But what I think the person who wrote that is trying to say, my social media guy, whom I'm gonna have to talk to after this. What I think I'm trying to say is, you out there are probably a little bit naive, as most of us are, like I was, right? And there are other people out there who aren't as ethical as you are. They play the game differently, right? They're not so concerned with the rules. They bend the rules and you obey the rules, right?

• 42:18Speaker 00

  And they have the advantage over you because they're willing to do more than you're willing to do. You have to learn a little bit about their game. You have to play a little bit about what they're doing. You have to play a little bit of hardball back at them. And you have to do it better. Because what's wrong with a lot of villains are, is they're actually not as smart as you think. They're operating on emotion. They're pushing people around. They're powerful. They think they're so great. They're egotistical. They're grandiose. They think that they can't do no wrong. You need to be strategic in dealing with people who are manipulative. If you can be strategic, then you have the upper hand, right? Because I don't think, a lot of times villains aren't as strategic as you think.

• 43:03Speaker 00

  I think that's what I meant.

• 43:05Codie Sanchez?

  And a lot of times, it seems like we just act. We don't actually think about what our actions are. We speak, we don't think about what we speak. We're sort of this, this, you know, hit a knee, hit yourself on the knee and you have this, yeah, this reflex action. And so if you're a type of person who overlays, man, 10 or 20% of, let me ponder my interpersonal communication more than the next person, you might win more often.

• 43:33Speaker 00

  That's right, right. Um, I mean, I look around me and I think the the main fault I see in in reading the news and in dealing with people is they don't think long term. They're just reacting in the moment. And in the book, I wrote a book about strategy, my version of the art of war called the thirty three strategies of war. And I call this tactical hell as opposed to being strategic in life. Tactical hell is you're continually just reacting to what other people are doing. If you can lift your head out of the moment and think a few steps ahead and think, what is it that will actually bring me success? Not just immediately against this person, but three or four steps down the road.

• 44:18Speaker 00

  Elevate your mind above the battlefield and think ahead and game it out. And sometimes what you think is going to work immediately is actually the worst thing you can do. I take a political example right now that's in the news. And it had to do with the recent possible shutdown of the government. And Chuck Schumer, as we all know, eventually folded and he agreed not to shut it down and he voted for the budget. And he said that the shutdown would have been the worst thing that could have happened. Okay, but in strategic thinking, which is something that I study very deeply, that was definitely the wrong move to make.

• 44:59Speaker 00

  It was reacting, it was being tactical and not being strategic. When you have leverage in a situation, in any situation in life, you have to use your leverage. And what a lot of people do, they're afraid of the leverage that they have. They're afraid they're going to offend the other person. They're afraid they're going to go too far and they they kind of compromise and they don't use what they actually have. And what that signals is you're weak. We can play you and the next time around, we're going to negotiate the hell out of you. We're going to beat you. Okay? You have to signal to people sometimes that you're going to use your leverage, that even if it means something bad, it's going to happen like a shutdown. I'm signaling to you that I'm not weak, that the next time around, you have to negotiate with me.

• 45:44Speaker 00

  That's long-term thinking. That's getting out of the immediate reaction and going. The bigger game is long-term, right? And I want to, there's gonna be more and more situations where you're gonna be conflicting. You want to signal to them that you're not a pushover, that you can resist them, that there's something else going on.

• 46:01Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah, it's such a superpower and it's so hard to do. I remember the first couple of deals I did, I was scared. I didn't realize, you said it perfectly, which is, you're scared of your own leverage. And I think it's also you're scared of people not liking you.

• 46:14Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 46:14Codie Sanchez?

  It feels like especially today, likability is another thing we want. We want authenticity because we think that it will make people like us. And if we're not liked, we think that that is bad. Whereas, you know, the guy on the other half of this book, Machiavelli, famously, he was the one that said it is better to be feared than loved, right? Do you think that's true?

• 46:37Speaker 00

  It's, it depends on your situation.

• 46:41Speaker 00

  The thing, the reason why Machiavelli wrote that is if people love you, love is very ephemeral thing. So people can like you and love you, and that's great. But the next day, something happens, and they don't like you as much. You don't do something that pleases them as much, and that love turns into something else. But if they fear you, that fear ain't going away. It's strong, it's stable, it's there. They can't change it. Because they know that if they cross the line, they're gonna pay a price. You're gonna hit them, whatever it is, right? So fear is much more stable, it's much more powerful. But you can go too far. If you're an employee, employer of a company, and everybody's afraid of you,

• 47:26Speaker 00

  then they're not gonna tell you the truth. They're gonna, they're gonna nuance everything that they say to you, so you're gonna be, you're not gonna know what's really happening in the world. Everyone's gonna give you news that's gonna, that they think is gonna, what you want to hear. They're not gonna tell you what you need to hear. They're not gonna be as creative, they're not gonna share their own ideas. So you can go too far with that, right? So for specific situations, I always tell people and clients that I consult with, you want to have the touch of fear. You want them to think that if they mess with you, they're gonna pay a price, that they can't push you around. That's not the only thing they fear, feel about you. They do like you, but there's a little undercurrent of.

• 48:09Speaker 00

  I respect that person and if I don't do certain things, I'm gonna pay a price for that.

• 48:13Codie Sanchez?

  Interesting. So in practice, would that be something like, I remember reading Netflix's, sort of their manifesto on how to run a business. And they kind of famously wrote this PowerPoint about it and shared it. And they had a, they basically had a zero policy policy, which is like they tried to have almost no rules at Netflix. And they were like, we trust you guys to be employees. You can take as much time off as you want to. You can spend whatever you want. No hotel minimums, no plane costs. If you think you need first trust or first class, take it. And so that was their policy. But the way that they enforced it was interesting because they said, do whatever you want, as long as it's in the best interest of Netflix.

• 48:59Codie Sanchez?

  And so how I think they enforced it would be like exclamation points of fear. So they basically would say, well, this person spent a bunch of money on themselves and, you know, didn't go to meetings that they said that they went to. That was thus not in the best interest of Netflix. And then they would sort of publicly fire this person. And talk about it and say, this is why this person was fired. So is that like, is that an example of how to be, yes, we can be generally loved from having this wonderful open policy. But upon, you know, somebody doing something wrong, exclamation point of fear is, this person was fired and we will do a public showing of it.

• 49:41Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, I think that's very powerful. I've seen that in sports.

• 49:47Speaker 00

  Vince Lombardi, who was a great coach of the Green Bay Packers back in the 60s, probably one of the greatest football coaches ever. He had a policy of treating everybody equally. There were no stars on the team, even though there were players who were better than others. Everybody got the same equal treatment, which made the people who weren't making as much money feel very good and it sort of created a team spirit. But if one person stepped out of that, if one person did something that was, showed that they weren't being part of the team, right, that they had an ego, he would punish them really hard. He set an example. And so what you want is you want a cohesive team.

• 50:28Speaker 00

  You want a group of people around you who are all working on the same page. But if you spoil them, if you let them do whatever they want, then they will do whatever they want. But if ever occasionally you set an example, you punish someone, you show that there are limits to what they can do. It's a very, very effective means of management, of controlling people, of giving them leeway. Because you want people to be creative, you want people to enjoy their work. It's something that I practice as well with people who work for me. Occasionally, I want you to know that there are limits, you cross them, I will get really upset with you, right? But generally, I try to be very nice.

• 51:08Speaker 00

  But that occasional use of the whip is much more effective than if you're whipping people all of the time. Or if you have no whip at all in your hand.

• 51:17Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah, kind of like Pavlov's dog. At some point, if you just keep shocking them consistently, they just lay down.

• 51:22Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 51:23Codie Sanchez?

  Interesting. So right now, you're writing a new book.

• 51:27Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 51:27Codie Sanchez?

  What are you obsessing on currently? Like, what is in that mind of yours today?

• 51:32Speaker 00

  Well, I'm finishing a chapter, it's a book about the sublime. Which is, you know, I had a stroke and I had a near-death experience. I came very close to dying. Somebody basically saved my life, my wife did. And I maintain that that kind of experience changes you, changes how you look at life. The things that you took for granted, you no longer take for granted. And so when I look at the world, when I'm being alive, just being alive as I am right now. It's actually a very strange feeling to be alive, because I came very close to death.

• 52:14Speaker 00

  And it made me realize that despite all the horrible things that are going on in the world. It's actually incredibly insane that we humans are at this moment in history. That in the course of 30,000 years, we went from being, you know, whatever we were, to having all this incredible power. We are these insane animals. This consciousness that we have is this unbelievable gift. We have these brains that are by far the most complex organisms in the universe. Scientists have demonstrated that.

• 52:49Speaker 00

  But we're not aware of any of these things. We take it all for granted. And it's a book that's trying to open your eyes up to all of the sublime aspects of just being alive, of the history of the cosmos, of ancient history, of what it was like when we were children, of how our brains are formed, about our relationship with animals who have consciousness that we can interact with other species, with love and how sublime love can be, with history, with death itself. And so it's a book that's kind of making me feel better about all of my limitations. But I want the readers to go away and think differently about what it means to be able to transform them.

• 53:32Speaker 00

  And so the chapter that I'm writing now, that I'm going into just now, is about willpower and energy, and how we have capabilities that we don't even tap into, that we're only using a small part of our brain, that we're only using a tenth of the energy that we actually have, right? It's our minds that are holding us back, and that we're gifted with these powers that are not being used. And I have examples of humans who've been in situations that are incredibly stressful, incredibly difficult, and they overcame them. They were able to tap into those powers because they were facing death essentially.

• 54:17Speaker 00

  They were facing something very terrible. And a kind of courage came to them. So there's like a story of a plane crash in the Andes. And in the worst part of the Andes, in the mountains in the middle of winter, and these boys who were on a rugby team, they somehow managed, in the course of three months, to save their lives. More than half of them died, but... How they did it, the guy who narrates the story is so incredible. That anybody who, afterwards, when people said, "It's absolutely impossible what you did. You climbed these eighteen thousand foot mountains that even mountain climbers can't climb,

• 55:02Speaker 00

  and you did it without any equipment." It was, he called it a miracle. And so, we have these powers that we're not even aware of. And circumstances will force us upon, force them upon us. So if you're facing stress, if you're facing difficulty, you will feel this other energy that flows through you. It's very human, it's very powerful. So that's what I'm writing about now, and that's what I'm kind of fascinated about.

• 55:27Codie Sanchez?

  Interesting. You know, it's actually funny, because I was thinking about, what does somebody like you, who's such a prolific writer, who's written these books that-

• 55:37Speaker 00

  Well, I'm not very prolific, actually. I take four or five years to write a book.

• 55:40Codie Sanchez?

  Well, that's true.

• 55:41Speaker 00

  I wish I were prolific.

• 55:44Codie Sanchez?

  You are instead a very profound writer.

• 55:46Speaker 00

  Okay, thank you.

• 55:47Codie Sanchez?

  Okay, I'll meet you on that one. So you're a very profound writer, you write these deep works. I imagine there are moments where you feel uninspired.

• 55:56Speaker 00

  Oh, God. Tell me about it.

• 55:59Codie Sanchez?

  And you need to dive in. Is there something that you do when you are feeling absolutely no way you can write?

• 56:06Speaker 00

  Well, you know, it's almost a question that makes me want to cry. I'm so sorry, but before I had my stroke, I wrote seven books. And I would get those moments. And what I would do was, I had to get out of my mind, and I would go take a hike up into the park. And all these great ideas would come to me. Or I would go for a long swim, because I was into long distance swimming. And then I'd come out of the pool, and wow, my mind was just sparkling with ideas. I can't do any of it now. I can't hike, I can't swim, I can't do the things that got me out of my mind and my body. And I'm writing a book that has to be exciting, that has to excite the reader every single page, every word.

• 56:51Speaker 00

  I can't write a dull book about the sublime. So what I do is, I have to go through, I have to work on my head. And so, I'm sitting there writing this thing, and it's not coming out right. I have to step back, and I have to put myself in the mood, and I have to go- This is an incredible privilege you have, Robert, to write this book. Let's get into the spirit of it. Let's feel what you're trying to write. Let's not be intellectual. Let's not write something. Let's feel it first and then write it. I have to go through a process. I have to listen to some music. I have to look at my cat who's walking by. I have to talk to my, you know, just look at my wife or see something. And then I feel it and then I can write it.

• 57:35Speaker 00

  But it is difficult because all of those things that I depended on before, I don't have. So just like I said, when life turns against you, you have to adapt. You have to learn. It brings the best out of you sometimes because we're normally, we're in a rut. Things are so familiar. We don't work on ourselves. But when things turn bad, like they turned bad for me, you have to change. You have to adapt. You have to become a different person. And it makes you grow and it makes you learn, which is what I've had to do. I have to, I have to force myself to be inspired, literally.

• 58:11Codie Sanchez?

  Wow, and in a completely new way. It's hard enough, even to do it the way that you've done it for decades. But to find a completely new way is fascinating. Yeah, and I guess you, the universe kind of keeps pushing you to become the next level of the game player.

• 58:27Speaker 00

  Well, you know, the sublime is a concept that I've kind of created. But there are books, my way of thinking about, there are books that are out there about the concept. But they're so dry, they're so intellectual, they're so like academic speak, all this jargon, that they're so unsublime, right?

• 58:48Codie Sanchez?

  That's very true.

• 58:49Speaker 00

  I want this book for people to read it and really feel it and feel like there's an experience out there that they can have. And I'll tell you one thing, Cody. When I first thought of writing the book, which was 16, 17 years ago, before I had my dear death experience, I was going to Go cross the Gobi Desert. I was gonna go to Tierra del Fuego in Antarctica. I was gonna see all the sublime parts of the planet. I was gonna swim with dolphins. And I was gonna experience this all and write about it. And here I am, when I finally get the chance to write the book, I can't do any of those things. But the book will be better for that. That's what life is about. I call it amor fatti.

• 59:33Speaker 00

  The things that happen to you are the best things that could ever happen to you. So having my stroke made the book better because I can't do those things. But 99% of my readers won't be able to do them. I'm showing you how you can have, you can look at life, sitting in your office, sitting in your chair, having your breakfast, and you can have these experiences in your day to day life. You don't have to do things that are extraordinary.

• 59:59Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:00Speaker 00

  Because life is extraordinary.

• 1:00:01Codie Sanchez?

  God, that's so beautiful. Yeah, you know, it reminds me, do you like Bukowski at all?

• 1:00:07Speaker 00

  Very much.

• 1:00:08Codie Sanchez?

  Me too. I mean, psychopath. But I love that about him. You don't think so, a little bit?

• 1:00:13Speaker 00

  No, he was a wonderful guy. He's a local LA people. I know people who knew him.

• 1:00:16Codie Sanchez?

  Oh, that, really?

• 1:00:18Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:00:18Codie Sanchez?

  Oh, I'm gonna be such a nerd about it. His, like, the poem that he did on becoming a writer, was that what it was? And it's how he talks about, well, actually, I have a quote in here from him, I think. Yeah, the, I remember when I was writing my book, but then when I write the stuff that I only write for me, you know, do you ever do that? Where you just write things that nobody will ever see?

• 1:00:39Speaker 00

  Yeah, and hopefully, nobody will ever see.

• 1:00:42Codie Sanchez?

  I do. But I loved that part where he's like, if it doesn't come bursting out of you in spite of everything, don't do it unless it comes unass out of your heart and your mind and your mouth and your gut, don't do it. And how he talks about the libraries of the world have yawned with books such as yours. I always loved that because it's, it's basically him's anti-selling the entire time.

• 1:01:06Speaker 00

  How so?

• 1:01:07Codie Sanchez?

  He's saying, don't write. Like, don't write. We don't need another book that has no purpose except for your ego.

• 1:01:13Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:01:13Codie Sanchez?

  Like, only write if it comes bursting out of you, if it would, if it would kill you to not put pen to paper.

• 1:01:18Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:01:19Codie Sanchez?

  Which it sounds like this is that book for you. You're like, you have, you feel like you have to write it.

• 1:01:23Speaker 00

  Well. You know, I guess I'm maybe slightly neurotic in that, you know, or a hypochondriac. I always think that I am gonna die, like some illness, or that I'm gonna have an accident and the book will never get finished. And so I tell my wife, if I'm dead, this is how I wanna finish it, you know, and that, you know, I know, these aren't great things about me.

• 1:01:47Codie Sanchez?

  Have you always been like that?

• 1:01:48Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:01:51Speaker 00

  So this book, I have to finish. I can't let myself die before I finish it because it means that much to me, you know? And so sometimes I, I'm a little bit of a daredevil in that. I used to, my hiking and swimming and mountain biking, I would do things that were a little bit risky because I like that. And so now I have, this is, this is so silly. I don't even know why I'm going into it. But I have a special bike that I can use because I can't ride a normal bike. It's my only outlet in life is this recumbent bike. And I go whipping down these hills. You can't pass cars and everything. And I'm like, I don't wanna do this today, Robert,

• 1:02:36Speaker 00

  because you might get crushed by a car and then your book is finished. But then I force myself to do it anyway. But this is a book that I have to get out. And I'm on chapter 11 and there are 12 chapters.

• 1:02:49Codie Sanchez?

  Wow.

• 1:02:50Speaker 00

  So I just have to live another nine months and I'll be okay.

• 1:02:55Codie Sanchez?

  I'd like a little bit longer, but I like. Does your wife laugh when you say that?

• 1:03:00Speaker 00

  Yeah, she knows. She's, she's been putting up with it a long time.

• 1:03:03Codie Sanchez?

  For a long time. It's funny because you also have a line that's like, never whine, never complain, never try to justify yourself. And it seems like you live that a bit, too. What does that mean? Why do you tell people that never whine, never complain, never justify?

• 1:03:17Speaker 00

  Because it's so senseless. Nothing, there's nothing to complain about. Everything happens for a purpose. Yeah, in the moment when, when somebody, somebody does something irritating, my first instinct is to complain and even whine a little bit. But then I calm down and I go, it's not important. It doesn't matter. You don't need to complain about this. In fact, there's something good about it. So this morning, to give you an example, I'm meditating, right? I meditate every morning. That helps me a lot. And

• 1:03:49Speaker 00

  There's noise going on that's kind of interrupting my thoughts. God damn it, I want to yell at that person. And I'm meditating. How can you have a thought like that when you're meditating? And then it makes me go, no, Robert, it's just a noise. Just think of it as birds singing. Calm down, don't, don't be upset. It's actually training you to not get upset. So the bad things that happen to you are training you to not take them so seriously or to find a way to use them. Nothing is ever really bad. People often ask me in these interviews, if you were 20 years old and you knew who, what was gonna happen to your life, would you go back and tell yourself something and do something differently than the way you did it?

• 1:04:34Speaker 00

  You know, or do you have any regrets, Robert? I have no regrets. I wouldn't change anything because everything happened for a purpose. Everything lined itself up for a reason and it all came out the way it should have come out because I embraced it and I found a way to learn something from it. So even when I had a bad job, my attitude was, I'm gonna learn about people. I'm gonna learn about what I hate and what I love.

• 1:05:01Speaker 00

  There's no wasted time in life.

• 1:05:03Codie Sanchez?

  It's such a good point. I saw this meme the other day that reminds me of your bird song. I don't know if you've seen it.

• 1:05:08Speaker 00

  You saw what?

• 1:05:09Codie Sanchez?

  A meme, you know, like a little graphic. And, and in it, it was this woman in her window and she's looking outside and birds are singing. And she's like, the bird song, it's so beautiful, right? And then it was the two birds and it was one bird yelling at the other bird. I've eaten all your children, I'll be back next year for the next round.

• 1:05:28Speaker 00

  That's pretty good.

• 1:05:29Codie Sanchez?

  It made me kind of chuckle because the perspective from the woman was, this is lovely. I have learned to associate bird song with something magical and the birds are simultaneously murdering each other and that's their language. And so it kind of takes me to that idea of nothing is good or bad, except really by comparison. And it sounds like you've lived that.

• 1:05:48Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, um, you know.

• 1:05:52Speaker 00

  If I had to think of one thing that's wrong about about humans or about us, is that we think too much. We overanalyze everything and in overanalyzing and thinking too much, we ruin things. We ruin what could be good, what could be pleasurable, what's normal. So if we think and think and think, think we're inevitably going to find something negative to uncover about that. So, you know, we we think and we create things that are are are good or bad or whatever, but they're just things that happen. They're not good or bad. They just are events that happen. And we think of them and we make them what we want to make them.

• 1:06:35Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah. You know, this is something in your book Seduction, but kind of a theme throughout them. You had this idea of anti-seductive, which I had never thought of this before. What is somebody who is anti-seductive like?

• 1:06:50Speaker 00

  Well, I hope you're not one of them. No, I don't think so.

• 1:06:53Codie Sanchez?

  Depends to who, I bet.

• 1:06:56Speaker 00

  Well, you know how some people are are good seducers? And it could be not just for sex, it could be socially or politically. They're very calm. They know how to tell a good story. They have charisma, they have energy, their their face lights up. They know how to say the right things and they they they attract you. Okay? But there are people who do the opposite. They say the wrong things, they do the wrong things, they dress the wrong way, they take you to the wrong places, they repel you. They are anti-seductive. Nobody wants to be around them, right? And so what are the qualities that make a person anti-seductive? So one of them are people who talk too much, who are always bragging,

• 1:07:41Speaker 00

  who always have a story to tell. You know, in in the realm of seduction, women often complain of men who explain. They explain everything, they explain exactly what you're doing, what you mean, right? They call it mansplaining, okay? So people who tell you everything, who are doing 95% of the talking. And they don't think they are. They're extremely anti-seductive. People who moralize, who tell you, you're wrong. This is what you need to do. This is what's good. This is what's bad. That's anti-seductive, right? They preach to you. People who are always bragging about themselves like they're so great. That's a very anti-seductive quality.

• 1:08:23Speaker 00

  I think being vulgar is an anti-seductive quality because it's like, you have no self-control. You don't look at yourself and realize what you're saying or what you, how you're dressing or how you're looking is actually kind of off-putting, right? So a seductive person is self-aware. They're self-aware of their body language, of, of, you know, the clothes that they wear, of how they talk. The anti-seductive person has no self-awareness. They enter life, they don't look in a mirror. They don't think about what they're saying. They just think they're being natural and they offend a lot of people.

• 1:08:58Speaker 02

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• 1:09:10Speaker 03

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• 1:09:14Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah, we've def- I've definitely met all those types and been all of those types at varying points as well.

• 1:09:19Speaker 00

  No, you haven't.

• 1:09:20Codie Sanchez?

  I try not to.

• 1:09:21Speaker 00

  I don't believe that.

• 1:09:23Codie Sanchez?

  Well, I think, you know, I think as you get older, like a little bit, you start to realize, oh, you know, that story isn't, isn't so necessary to share so broadly. Like being so loud isn't so necessary all the time.

• 1:09:36Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:09:37Codie Sanchez?

  You know, just the other day, we were talking about how even being too familiar can be in some ways anti-seductive.

• 1:09:43Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:09:43Codie Sanchez?

  And that's kind of what you go back, you, you talked about before, which is this little bit of, there's almost like a, some sort of removal, a slight, what would you call that?

• 1:09:54Speaker 00

  A little bit of air mystery.

• 1:09:55Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:56Speaker 00

  So I know I was talking to a-

• 1:10:01Speaker 00

  A celebrity, I won't mention names, who was saying, Robert, you talk in seduction about mystery. But in the era of social media, you have to be out there all of the time, right? You talk in the 48 Laws of Power of creating distance and absence, using absence to create respect and honor, which is one of the laws. How do you do that in the era of social media? You always have to be out there, you have to be familiar. And I say, if you do too much of that, I'm not gonna use her name, people will become so familiar with you that you're gonna lose that aura of being a celebrity. They're gonna take you for granted. And you might shine for a year with being out there and having all of your posts and doing all of these things.

• 1:10:47Speaker 00

  But after a year, they'll find somebody new who they haven't seen before. You're not so new anymore, and they'll find them, and they'll leave you, and it'll be very painful for you. You have to keep people on their heels. They can't know everything about you. And what I said is, disappear for a couple of weeks. Make people talk about you. Make people wonder, why is she not posting as much? Why are we not seeing what she's wearing in the morning and having for breakfast and all these other things? I said, Beyonce did that. She disappeared for like a couple of years, and then she comes out with like a country western album that nobody expected. Michael Jackson did that. He would disappear between albums for three or four years. And it just made people go crazy and talk about him and wonder who he was.

• 1:11:32Speaker 00

  That was before the era of social media, Grant, but you have to disappear sometimes so people don't take you for granted. If they know everything about you, it's human nature that you become too familiar and they're not interested in you anymore at a certain point. So you have to create mystery.

• 1:11:49Codie Sanchez?

  Man, do you think you have to do that in interpersonal relationships too?

• 1:11:53Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:11:53Codie Sanchez?

  How does one create mystery, let's say, in a relationship?

• 1:11:59Speaker 00

  Well, it's that you think of doing something that's gonna surprise the other person. Now, nobody knows you completely. Your husband doesn't know every single thing about you, Cody. He didn't know you before you got married. He didn't know all your previous boyfriends and everything. Some of the naughty things that you've done in your life.

• 1:12:22Codie Sanchez?

  Saint, Robert. No, no former boyfriends, perfect saint over here.

• 1:12:25Speaker 00

  Oh, right, right. I believe that. So he doesn't know these things. He doesn't know you completely. So if you give him a sense of, I'm sorry, what's his name?

• 1:12:36Codie Sanchez?

  Chris.

• 1:12:36Speaker 00

  Chris, I met, I met Africa. Chris, you show him something that he didn't know about before. Goes, wow, I didn't know Cody. I was taking her for granted. I wasn't, you know, I think I knew everything about her. She showed me something that surprised me. Maybe the surprise isn't something good, but at least it like keeps him on his heels. It makes him think about you. Because in a relationship, people will take you for granted after a couple of months. Right? They were so interested in you in the beginning and now it's kind of dwindling. They take you for granted because they think they know everything about you.

• 1:13:14Speaker 00

  If you surprise them, if you say something different, if you take them to a place where they never thought that you would take them to. If you dress a certain way that seems a little bit out of character, not completely out of character. They go, wow. But you need to do that in a relationship constantly. Otherwise, it's just gonna fizzle. All the energy is gonna go out of it.

• 1:13:35Codie Sanchez?

  That's so beautiful. It really feels to me, what I'm reminded speaking to you and every time I read your books is it is this like, it's this beautiful game. You know, whether it's a play that we all are playing. And if you do it in the right way, that is somehow how you wanna play the game too. You can have outsized outcomes without that much additional effort.

• 1:13:55Speaker 00

  That's right.

• 1:13:56Codie Sanchez?

  Which is a beautiful thing. I cannot wait to read your next book. When is it out yet?

• 1:14:01Speaker 00

  To have you read it, because that means it'll be finished.

• 1:14:04Codie Sanchez?

  I bet.

• 1:14:05Speaker 00

  It'll be out.

• 1:14:06Codie Sanchez?

  Bike rides. Said careful on your bike rides. We need you to stick around, check in in nine months. Make sure you're still around.

• 1:14:13Speaker 00

  Tomorrow, but I will be careful.

• 1:14:15Codie Sanchez?

  Okay.

• 1:14:17Speaker 00

  It will be out, uh, Lord blessing me, it will be out in, uh, fall of 2026. So next year fall.

• 1:14:26Codie Sanchez?

  Wow. Okay. Well, we don't know the name or anything yet. That'll come out next year.

• 1:14:29Speaker 00

  Called right now, The Law of the Sublime.

• 1:14:31Codie Sanchez?

  Hmm. I like it. Robert Green, this was so amazing. I love learning from you. I'm actually going to go back and reread a couple of your books because I've realized how much I've forgotten in them, but thank you for bringing these ideas into the world.

• 1:14:42Speaker 00

  Thank you so much for having me, Cody. I really enjoyed it. It was a great conversation.

• 1:14:45Codie Sanchez?

  Me too, minus the drilling. We have to go murder somebody out back. I don't know. It's the only thing I could.

• 1:14:49Speaker 00

  I don't know what that was.

• 1:14:50Codie Sanchez?

  I know. I just, I was pretending I couldn't hear it. Yeah.

• 1:14:51Speaker 00

  Dentist office near here or something?

• 1:14:53Codie Sanchez?

  Exactly. Small screams. Robert Green. Um, where do you like to point people these days? Obviously I'll do your intro and everything and get it right in that part.

• 1:15:02Speaker 00

  Well, I have, uh, I have a website that goes back hundreds of years. Um, I believe it's the same.

• 1:15:10Codie Sanchez?

  You have a great Instagram and Twitter too. Do you prefer people go to the?

• 1:15:12Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But this is a place where you know.

• 1:15:15Codie Sanchez?

  Everything.

• 1:15:16Speaker 00

  Yeah. It's power, seduction, and A N D war.com.

• 1:15:22Codie Sanchez?

  Okay, perfect.

• 1:15:23Speaker 00

  My first three books. And there you'll find my Instagram, my, uh, ex Twitter, whatever you call it, uh, YouTube, TikTok, uh, the whole shebang. Huh?

• 1:15:35Codie Sanchez?

  Are you doing TikTok dances?

• 1:15:36Speaker 00

  No, but I have like close to two million followers on TikTok just doing videos of, you know, just like our conversation.

• 1:15:45Codie Sanchez?

  They're really good, by the way.

• 1:15:47Speaker 00

  Oh, thank you.

• 1:15:47Codie Sanchez?

  Do you know that you, you probably already know this, but you are one of the highest ranking guests for YouTube podcasts of anyone?

• 1:15:57Codie Sanchez?

  Do you know that? Across almost all channels, like Stephen Bartlett, Chris Williamson.

• 1:16:00Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I know Stephen Bartlett. We've, yeah. I don't know why.

• 1:16:07Codie Sanchez?

  It's good information.

• 1:16:08Speaker 00

  But yeah, I'm very grateful for it because, uh,

• 1:16:10Codie Sanchez?

  It's helpful.

• 1:16:11Speaker 00

  I love the world, world of podcasting. I can tell you, I know we're finished here, but before, uh, before podcasting, a writer had to go on mainstream media. Man, that sucks so much. I hated that.

• 1:16:23Codie Sanchez?

  It's three minutes and you don't get to say anything interesting.

• 1:16:26Speaker 00

  That's speaking of inauthentic. It's like, ugh.

• 1:16:29Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah, I agree.

• 1:16:29Speaker 00

  I love podcasting. I love podcasters. I love that world. You just get to be yourself. There are people who actually read your books.

• 1:16:37Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:37Speaker 00

  You know, and it's like a real interaction. So.

• 1:16:40Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah, then they feel like they know you.

• 1:16:41Speaker 00

  I'm very grateful for all that.

• 1:16:42Codie Sanchez?

  So the last part, this podcast, the idea is, what would you say to the young Robert listening out there, but you, um, if you could go back, what would be your words of wisdom? And then whatever you feel comfortable writing, and then we have you just read a message to young Robert. And it's sort of a reminder that even those on high, you know, at some point, they were young and lost and all the things we all were.

• 1:17:05Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 1:17:13Speaker 00

  So what I wrote was, "Listen, young Robert, everything is going to turn out fine for you. So stop worrying and feeling so depressed and enjoy your youth more because it goes by way too quickly. You'll have plenty more to worry about when you're older and things start falling apart. So try to enjoy yourself much more right now."

• 1:17:37Codie Sanchez?

  It's beautiful. Thank you for sharing, Robert.

• 1:17:39Speaker 00

  That makes sense?

• 1:17:40Codie Sanchez?

  Yes, it did. And I think that's true. Even on your worst day, when you're young, it's kind of your best day, isn't it?

• 1:17:47Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:17:48Codie Sanchez?

  I wish we.

• 1:17:49Speaker 00

  I mean, it's, it's good being older. I don't, I don't regret that. It has its own advantages. I don't take things so seriously. But man, I had so much more fun when I was younger, you know?

• 1:18:00Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah. Yeah, I think you did say too. Um, God, what a bummer that would be. You said it more eloquently, but what a bummer that would be if everything worked out, uh, right on the first attempt.

• 1:18:10Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:18:11Codie Sanchez?

  I think that's true.

• 1:18:12Speaker 00

  You have to learn, yeah.

• 1:18:13Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah. Ah, well, Robert, this is amazing. Thank you.

• 1:18:17Speaker 00

  Thank you so much for having me, Cody.