#82: Sam Kass on Trials by Fire and Cooking for The Obamas

Sam Kass https://twitter.com/chefsamkass almost became a pro baseball player. Instead, he pivoted a history major into becoming the private chef for the Obamas in the White House. He then broke into national nutrition policy and was named #11 on Fast Company magazine's 2011 list of "100 Most Creative People" for his work, which focused on establishing private-sector partnerships to reduce childhood obesity to just 5% by 2030. His story is amazing, his career turns are unexpected, and his trials by fire are hilarious. In this conversation, we talk about: - Baseball and the art of fielding - His odd leap to the culinary world and his escapades in Austria - How he met the Obamas - His favorite books, routines, and breakfast eggs - Simple cooking tricks and common mistakes - Nutrition, top-soil depletion, and organic food - Why he doesn't like black pepper - And much, much more... Show notes (links, resources, books, etc.) for this episode can be found at fourhourworkweek.com/podcast http://fourhourworkweek.com/podcast And...please visit the sponsors for this episode! I've used them both. Mizzen + Main http://mizzenandmain.com/collections/tim makes the only "dress" shirts I now travel with — fancy enough for important dinners but made from athletic, sweat-wicking material http://fourhourworkweek.com/shirts. No more ironing, no more steaming, no more hassle. Click here to see the exact shirts I wear most often http://mizzenandmain.com/collections/tim. 99Designs http://99designs.com/tim is the world's largest marketplace of graphic designers. I used 99Designs to rapid prototype the cover http://99designs.com/tim for The 4-Hour Body, which hit #1 New York Times. Here are some of the impressive results http://99designs.com/tim. Click this link http://www.99designs.com/tim and get a free $99 upgrade. Give it a test run…

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  At this altitude, I can run flat out for a half mile before my hands start to shake. Can I answer your personal question?

• 0:08Speaker 01

  Well, it would seem inappropriate to me.

• 0:12Speaker 00

  I'm a cybernetic organism, living tissue over metal endoskeleton.

• 0:23Tim Ferriss?

  This podcast is brought to you by Mizzen & Maine. Don't worry about the spelling, all you need to know is this. I have organized my entire life around avoiding fancy shirts. Because you have to iron them, you sweat through them, they smell really easily, they're a pain in the ass. Mizzen & Maine has given me the only shirt that I need. And what I mean by that, and Kelly Starrett loves these shirts as well, is that you can trick people. They look really fancy, so you can take them out to nice dinners, whatever. But they're made from athletic sweat-wicking material. So you can throw this thing into your luggage in a heap, or on your kitchen table like I did recently, and then pull it out, throw it on with no ironing, no steaming, no nothing, walk out, and you could probably wear this thing for a week straight.

• 1:08Tim Ferriss?

  Or make it your only dress shirt, and take it on trips for weeks at a time. Never wash it, it will not smell, you will not sweat through it. You gotta check these things out. So go to fourhourworkweek.com, all spelled out, fourhourworkweek.com/shirts. Check it out, fourhourworkweek.com/shirts, and you'll see some of my favorite gear, including the one shirt that I've been traveling with.

• 1:33Tim Ferriss?

  This episode is brought to you by 99designs, your one-stop shop for all things graphic design-related. I have used 99designs for everything from banner ads to book covers, including sketches and mock-ups that led to The Four Hour Body, which later became number one New York Times, number one Wall Street Journal. And the brainstorming, a lot of it took place with designers from around the world. And here's how it works. Whether you need a t-shirt, a business card, a website, an app thumbnail, whatever it might be, you submit that project, and designers from around the world will send you sketches and mock-ups and designs. You choose your favorite. And you have an original that you love, or you get your money back. It's that straightforward. And many of you who are listening have already used it and created some amazing things that I'll

• 2:18Tim Ferriss?

  be sharing in the future. But in the meantime, if you want to see some of my competitions, some of the book covers, as well as get a free $99 upgrade, go to 99designs.com/tim. That's 99designs.com/tim.

• 2:35Tim Ferriss?

  Hello, ladies and germs. This is Tim Ferriss staring out through my window at the eucalyptus trees swaying in the breeze. But that's enough poetry for this episode of The Tim Ferriss Show. The Tim Ferriss Show, of course, like every other episode, is intended to help you deconstruct excellence, world-class performers, to pull out the tricks, routines, habits, books, et cetera, that you can use, you can emulate to improve results in your own life. And guests vary from hedge fund traders to, that doesn't make any sense at all, hedge fund managers, to top-performing angel investors, to people like Arnold Schwarzenegger on the celebrity front, chess prodigies.

• 3:18Tim Ferriss?

  And in this case, we have not only a chef, but a chef plus policymaker plus would-be professional athlete. His name is Sam Kass. Sam is a fascinating guy. He went from getting a history major at UChicago. Before that, he was on the professional baseball track, then became private chef for the Obamas, and then ended up the senior policy advisor for nutrition at the White House. He ran, or helped to run, as executive director, the Let's Move Campaign, which used private sector partnerships to pursue the goal of reducing childhood obesity to just 5% by 2030.

• 3:58Tim Ferriss?

  And for that, he was named number 11 on Fast Company Magazine's 2011 list of the 100 most creative people. And it's such a multifaceted story. Sam is a hilarious storyteller, and there are a lot of really concrete takeaways. The book that he could not recall offhand in this episode is a

• 4:20Tim Ferriss?

  History of World Agriculture by Marcel Mazoyer and Lawrence Roudard, or Roudart, R O U D A R T. So in addition to the Art of Fielding, Otalengi's books, and some of the others that he mentioned, there you have it, A History of World Agriculture. So now, without further ado, please enjoy my conversation and our conversation with Sam Kass.

• 4:45Tim Ferriss?

  Sam, welcome to the show.

• 4:47Speaker 03

  So good to be here, man. I'm excited.

• 4:50Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, it's an interview that I've been really looking forward to, and I am very, very hopped up on caffeine. This is an Amish morning for me. I know this is, I'm usually a 10 a.m., 11 a.m. kind of guy because I'm a night owl. And so I'm going to jump into some morning questions in a second, but I wanted to first congratulate you on the James Beard Foundation, the Leadership Awards.

• 5:15Speaker 03

  Oh, thank you. Yeah, that means a lot. James Beard has been an incredible organization. I mean, they're like the, they're like the Oscars for chefs, but they've taken up a lot of the important issues around food and nutrition and health and sustainability. So they have an award for that. And yeah, it's a great honor. I'm excited.

• 5:34Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, so for those who don't know, the Leadership Awards, and this is from their website, quote, "recognize specific outstanding initiatives as well as bodies of work and lifetime achievement." So that's, that's a hell of a tagline. And we're going to get into all that. But first, a very important question. Eggs. How do you prefer to make eggs in the morning?

• 5:56Speaker 03

  So actually, I've been eating a lot of eggs these days. And you know, the eggs are one of the hardest things to cook. Some of the great chefs in the world, they're actually, their test for a new cook would be how to make an omelet would be like their one master test. So I actually like eggs always, almost always soft, though. So either a soft-boiled egg, I'll do eggs over easy, or really soft scrambled eggs. I guess the trick for soft scrambled eggs is, I, you know, if you get your butter nice and hot, I crack the eggs straight into the pan, let them cook for a second, and then mix them up. And then before you think they're done, take them out because they'll harden a little bit as they sit on the plate. But I'll eat eggs pretty much any way.

• 6:40Tim Ferriss?

  And do you, are you a tea guy, a coffee guy, none of the above?

• 6:44Speaker 03

  Uh, uh, both, all of the above. I do, uh, I'll do coffee in the morning, a little half and half, and then, uh, either a little coffee in midday or tea, and then I'll, I'll definitely have some tea at night. Um, some chamomile tea or mint tea or some, but I, yeah, I, I, I drink them both.

• 7:01Tim Ferriss?

  How do you, do you have any particular, like, uh, do you have any particular type of coffee or way of, of prepping, or is it just, you know what, just treat it as fuel, whatever will get me through the day?

• 7:12Speaker 03

  Hmm, you know, I, I wouldn't say that I'm like one of those coffee, like lunatics who like, you know, is wild, you know, about every specific thing and talks about it like wine. But I appreciate a good cup of coffee and I really, one of my least favorite things is a terrible cup of coffee. Uh, yeah, I just, I, I can't, I can't drink it. So I'm a big Stumptown guy, you know, Blue Bottle is a great cup of coffee. Um, there's, there's some really good coffee out there. So I do French press in the morning, real simple, some half and half.

• 7:41Speaker 03

  Um, nothing, nothing crazy.

• 7:42Tim Ferriss?

  What does the, well, actually, I'm gonna ask the, the morning routine question a little bit later on, but you mentioned, uh, coffee snobs, and this is kind of a good segue, because you live in Brooklyn, but you came from a town that is actually really well-known for coffee these days, which is Chicago.

• 7:59Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 8:00Tim Ferriss?

  And, um, correct me if I'm wrong, I could, uh, get some of my bio incorrect, but you grew up with parents who were both teachers, is that correct?

• 8:10Speaker 03

  Uh, my dad's a teacher, um, was growing up. Well, he was actually, uh, he worked in the Ford factory when I was very young, and then he tran, then he changed jobs to become a, a, a teacher. And my mom has been in education, like science education stuff, but more from like museums, and now she's at the National Science Foundation, so, um, but lots of teachers. My uncle are teachers, my cousins are teachers, and my sister's a teacher, so I, I am, we come from, I come from an educational family.

• 8:35Tim Ferriss?

  What was, uh, what was that like growing up? I mean, how did that impact you or affect you?

• 8:42Speaker 03

  I it probably was more of how I pushed back against it than how it that was probably the the strongest influence. I wanted to be a professional baseball player from the time I was like three, all the way through college, to be honest. And I went to junior college trying to make it to the major leagues. So I I, you know, as my parents pleaded with me to to dig into the books and hit them harder, all I wanted to do was take batting practice and and and, you know, go after some fly balls. So it it came back to me when I when I transferred in college and and then beyond.

• 9:16Tim Ferriss?

  Did the do you have brothers and sisters?

• 9:18Speaker 03

  I have a younger sister who's still in Chicago.

• 9:21Tim Ferriss?

  Got it. And you ultimately in college ended up at UChicago.

• 9:26Speaker 03

  Mm hmm.

• 9:28Tim Ferriss?

  And what what drew you to baseball? Why did you? Why did you play baseball?

• 9:33Speaker 03

  So I love I love baseball for a number of reasons. One, it is so hard. I mean, if you if you are successful 30% of the time for your whole career, you'll be a Hall of Famer. That means if you fail seven out of 10 times, you're one of the greatest players in the history of the game. And so that constant challenge and constant challenge to get better, something that, you know, always really drew me. It's also, you know, it's a team sport, so you have the camaraderie that is, you know, really powerful and those bonds with with with your teammates. But it's it's also an utterly individual sport. So unlike, you know, soccer, basketball, where if you're having a bad game, you kind of blend in. If you make an error in baseball, or you strike out with the bases loaded, everybody knows, like, you messed up. And so you really have to take account, you know, responsibility,

• 10:18Speaker 03

  and you're held accountable for your actions. And I think that those kind of lessons of of discipline, hard work, but also accountability, and learning how to fail. And even if you failed five times in a row, that sixth time you get a shot at it, maybe the most important time can win the game. And how do you mentally prepare yourself to walk into that moment clear headed and and not carrying the baggage from those previous failures, which could, you know, impede your ability to be successful when it mattered? Like, those are the kind of things that I just loved about baseball, and it really served me well in in all other aspects of life.

• 10:52Tim Ferriss?

  And you had a, you had a very good batting average. I, I believe it's, uh, it, I have read that it was ranked among the best in program history at, uh, University of Chicago. Is that accurate?

• 11:04Speaker 03

  Um, yeah, I haven't checked recently. I'm sure some of the younger guys have, have taken over. And when I left, I think I was number three, but you know, it wasn't the, you know, we were at UFC for the education, not, not, not, uh, the baseball, but we had a very good team. Um, and I played two years of junior college baseball, just trying to get drafted. Where basically all I did was play ball. Uh, six, six hours a day, seven days a week, literally. And, uh, sprint training in the morning, like, you know, it was, that's all we did. So UFC was a little different. It was, uh, two hours a day, five days a week. And I'll never forget the first practice when coach outlined our schedule and said that on Thursdays, we didn't practice because we had science labs. I just almost like passed out. I didn't even know what, what he was talking, talking about. Science labs, not

• 11:49Speaker 03

  baseball. So it was a, it was an adjustment for me. Uh, but, uh, but it was one of the greatest things. Probably the best decision I've ever made was to go there.

• 11:57Tim Ferriss?

  And well, like you said, I mean, if you go to say Iowa for wrestling, I mean, wrestling is your career in college. Uh, academics are secondary, but at U Chicago, you have obviously a very strenuous academic program. What did you do that other players didn't do that allowed you to not only make it through U Chicago and the academics, but to have that high a batting average or that good a batting average?

• 12:22Speaker 03

  Um, that's a good question. I'm not exactly sure I know a definitive answer to that. I mean, I had come from such a rigorous baseball background, uh, where a lot of the other guys were, you know, came for, you know, were sort of playing baseball secondarily that, um, you know, that part came really easy to me. Uh, and, um,

• 12:42Speaker 03

  You know, I think the part that was a real adjustment that I could learn from them was like how to really hit the books in a way that I had never had to hit the books before. And how do you organize all that classwork? And, you know, the expectation is you're supposed to read like five books a week. I mean, I mean, that was like absurd to me going in. So, you know, I learned from them about how to balance that side of it. And from my side, you know, I think the discipline in how do you efficiently use your time, both in the, you know, in the gym, in batting practice, like, how do you make the most of what you're, you know, what you're trying to get out of it? I think was something that I could bring, you know, to the guys and was able to be successful on both sides.

• 13:23Tim Ferriss?

  And the, the, the major you ended up choosing was history? Was that, was that an immediate choice? Did you know you wanted to do history? How did you arrive at that?

• 13:34Speaker 03

  Um, you know, I looked, I looked at a couple of other majors, um, uh, but I arrived at history because, you know, at the time, there's a lot of things swirling in politics. There's a lot of, you know, there's a lot of work. There's like, you know, the first Gulf War and there's a lot of things going on that, that I was paying attention to, that I didn't really understand what was happening. Uh, and, um, and I, and I realized that if I wanted to understand the world around me and politics and, and everything that was happening, having a, a, a, a much better grasp on, on, on history and where these things have come from was going to help me. And I think that, that really propelled me to, to focus in on history, which, which I love. I'm a, I'm a history geek.

• 14:13Tim Ferriss?

  Do you have any favorite history books or biographies?

• 14:17Speaker 03

  Oh, man, that's so tough. That's so tough. I don't know if I have one. I'll tell you, like, I, I, I like some obscure ones and I gotta get to the author, but there's like, there's a history of agriculture book that completely changed my perspective and it's kind of boring, but when you look at, you know, if you're a geek and you look at like the impact of simple tools have had on our society, the transformational shifts, like we forget how fundamental that stuff is. So I'll get back to you on that. There's so many great biographies and great history books.

• 14:46Tim Ferriss?

  Cool. Yeah. The, the, I'll put the, the title of the book and so on in the show notes. So we'll come back to that.

• 14:53Speaker 03

  All right.

• 14:54Tim Ferriss?

  Uh, how did you then, this is kind of the missing piece in the, the Sam Kass puzzle that I haven't immediately been able to figure out. How did you go then from? Majoring in history at U Chicago to food. How did you become interested in food?

• 15:12Speaker 03

  So I had always sort of loved food, you know, as a kid. I kind of liked to cook, but I had no notion of ever, you know, pursuing it professionally in any way. And when I was at U of C, my friend was a sous chef at this restaurant in, in, in Chicago. And I, I didn't know him super well, but I said, oh, you know, one day, you know, I think I'll go to culinary school when I'm old. And just so I can learn how to cook for like my kids and wife whenever they decide to show up. And he was like, you know, well, don't do that. Just come in and hang out at the restaurant and see what you think. So I went in, it was like an Italian American spot in Chicago. Nothing, you know, nice place, nothing too fancy and, and I loved it.

• 15:53Speaker 03

  And so I ended up just showing up and like, you know, scrubbing potatoes and hanging out and trying to learn some things. And the chef said, well, if you're going to keep showing up, I guess I gotta pay you.

• 16:05Speaker 03

  So I, so he did, but I mean, it was pretty much an unmitigated disaster. Like I knew nothing and they, you know, but I always work hard. So they, they threw me on the line to work the pasta station and oh my God, it was, you know, the dishes that the chef let me send to the table most often came back because they were just unedible. So it, you know, so it was a rough start. But so I had that one summer and then I finished U of C and I had one, one semester left. And I kind of kicked my way into an abroad program. I got, I got waitlisted and a sort of plead, made a, a strong plea with the dean to let me, uh, let me into one of the programs. I didn't care where, where we went, where I went and went to, ended up going to Vienna.

• 16:48Speaker 03

  And I, I said to the head of the program, you know, I'm, I worked a little, I worked this one summer in a restaurant. I'm interested in food, like maybe there's a pastry shop or something I can go hang in, hang out at once, once a week or something. Totally casual. So I landed in Vienna and she said, so my husband's uncle's friend from college's son rides bicycles with the sous chef of the best restaurant in Vienna. That's literally what it was. And, uh, and she's like, you know, he, he can meet you tomorrow, um, if you're interested. She's like, all right. So I meet this dude, crazy guy.

• 17:28Speaker 03

  And he, he comes up to me and says, are you the Yankee who wants to cook? On the street and I said, I am and he said, all right, well, come to the restaurant tomorrow. And so I did and it was a Michelin star, like best restaurant in Vienna. It was incredible. I knew nothing about food and they ended up taking me in and training me. Sort of old school European style, like kick your butt, you know, until you, you know, can't take it anymore and you figure it out and lots of stories from that, from that, from that place, but that's sort of how I really was propelled into it.

• 18:05Tim Ferriss?

  So a few things, I just want to explain for people, maybe not in the industry. So sous chef is, I guess that means under chef, right? That's kind of the second in command in the kitchen. Is that a fair way to put it? Just like sous vide is under, under pressure, I guess. And the, so there are a lot of stories. I know we, we talked about one over dinner the other night and I can't skip it. So could you tell people about your sort of baptism by fire in that kitchen?

• 18:35Speaker 03

  So many stories. I think the one, yeah, the.

• 18:40Tim Ferriss?

  The fever dream.

• 18:41Speaker 03

  The fever dream, yeah. So, so it was December and, and that's the busiest time of the year by far for this restaurant. And the, the guy who did all the fish, meats and sauces had to have surgery. And so the executive chef had to take over for him. And now he was like 40 and was a super talented guy, but was like not cooking anymore. Like he was running things and being out with the guests and, you know, doing his thing. So he was really unhappy about having to cook the line during the most busy time of the year. So he, he like, he walked in when, when we got news and was like, all right, Yankee, you're with me. And so he had this huge incentive to teach me how to prep everything as fast as possible because he didn't want to have to do it.

• 19:26Speaker 03

  So he taught me how to make all the sauces, prep all the meats, cook everything. And so then we would work the service together. Uh, but in the middle of the month, on a Friday, the chef came down with like a hundred and four fever and was completely laid out. And it just so happened that my best friend, who was a Rhodes Scholar at the time, was coming to visit me from England. And, um, so, you know, we're supposed to go hang out. I was supposed to have the weekend off and we were just gonna hang. And so he shows up and I'm like, hey, man, you're coming with me. I'm putting you in a chef coat like we can't leave. And, uh, they had the breakfast cook, this guy Wolfgang, who was an awesome dude. But, you know, he was like, he was like doing platters of food. And I mean, he was a good cook, but he didn't like cook dinner service.

• 20:11Speaker 03

  He never had. So it was the three of us trying to figure out this dinner service and it was pretty funny. But the, at the end of the night, the sous chef said, all right, Wolfgang, you gotta take the day off. Um, it's the, it's the two Yankees on the stove tomorrow night. And like the kitchen went silent, like all the cooks were like, like they couldn't believe it. And so we figured out this system. My friend's a smart guy, so he, we studied the, the words in German of the different like fish and meats and whatever we needed. So the next night we had like a cra- we were packed. And so the, the sous chef would call out the order. My friend would take out the fish or the meat and then I would cook it.

• 20:52Speaker 03

  And you'd, uh, and you know, as I'm cooking, on the other side of me, also cooking and facing me was the guy who did all the vegetables and side dishes that would go with my meat or fish. And I'd look up and he would just be standing there kinda with his mouth open, completely in awe of what was going on because, you know, that station that we were working was like what people would work their whole careers for. It's an incredibly prestigious, well-paid position. And here were these two Americans who knew nothing about cooking, working in the Michelin star restaurant on the hardest station in the kitchen. It was hysterical. And we made it, like we, we basically got through without any catastrophe. And I'll never forget, when the last ticket went out, the sous chef, his name was Alois, he turns around and he said, Yankees, we won.

• 21:36Speaker 03

  And then like, just in German shouted for bottles of champagne and bottles of beer. And, uh, and we had a good old party that night. It was, it was, it was a ton of fun.

• 21:46Tim Ferriss?

  And, uh, I remember hearing this story and just having my jaw drop open because I've had, of course, very limited exposure to food and restaurants, but during the writing of The Four Hour Chef, when we first met, met up in, in DC.

• 22:03Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 22:03Tim Ferriss?

  I remember going into a handful of restaurants, uh, obviously different restaurants have very different environments. But when you're, when you look at a line, not at a Michelin star restaurant, but, uh, just at any restaurant during a busy period and like 40 menus open at the same time, it is complete chaos. I mean, you have to be Dr. Octopus to work one of the hotlines. So it's like you guys were kinda yanked out of the audience by the conductor of the orchestra and asked to do violin solos. Uh, it's, it's a, I can't believe you guys made it through that. What, what was your internal self-talk? Like, but when you got, when you got the news and like, when you got the news or when you walked in for that, that evening, I mean, how did you prep yourself for that?

• 22:48Tim Ferriss?

  Because unlike baseball, right? Like, if, if you're putting out every three out of 10 dishes is working in the restaurant, like you get punched in the face. So what was your self-talk to get through that?

• 23:02Speaker 03

  It's a great, it's a, I mean, I think the, the key in a restaurant and the key in any kind of high-pressure situation, like, I think 75% of success is, is staying calm and not losing your nerve. And, um, you know, the rest you figure out, but once you lose your, once you lose your, your, your calm, everything else starts falling apart fast. And in a restaurant situation is the tickets start piling up and like everybody else's is waiting on you. So, and particularly in this, like, the timing would have to be perfect because you go up on six dishes and the, the guy who's doing all the side stuff has like cooked all this and he's got to get to the next round. So your timing has to be right on. And if you're too slow, all of his stuff gets, he has, you know, it gets overcooked and he's got to cook it again, right?

• 23:43Speaker 03

  So you can really throw things off. Um, so I think the key thing was like mentally preparing myself. Like when something goes wrong, you just stay calm and stay the course. And I think the other thing, one of the first thing the sous chefs taught me, like he gave me some really fundamental rules, which... Have lasted me kind of throughout everything I do. One is, the first is never serve anything you wouldn't want to eat. Like, never serve crap. It's like rule number one. Rule number two, which is just true, just, you know, you can have a high standard on everything you do. Rule number two was, when things get really busy, instead of just like, like plowing ahead and just trying to work as fast as you can and just go through all the tickets, he always would tell me, "Set back and come up with a plan."

• 24:24Speaker 03

  So, look at which dishes you have and figure out what's the most efficient way to cook them. So if you have five of one thing, don't just cook them one at a time, like, get them out, prep them together, and do them together. So, that, those kind of like fundamental rules, I tried to hold really close and you just come up with a good system. I think every great restaurant has an incredibly strong system that when the, the, the pressure gets heated, you know, heated up and everything's moving super fast, you rely on that system to move you through and I think that was key. We came up with a good system and, and out it went. So I know you're not focusing on too many things at any one time. Focus on cooking the things that my friend was giving me and, and it worked really well.

• 25:06Tim Ferriss?

  It was, it was so fascinating for me to visit different kitchens and look at the layouts and, and the, the methods because they're really sort of the, the internal workings of the executive chef thrown out into this, the architecture of the room and the process and all that. And just being so surprised at, for instance, Alenia in Chicago and how quiet it is. There's no yelling, there's no screaming. It's more like a operating table.

• 25:34Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 25:35Tim Ferriss?

  Uh, what is the most unusual restaurant that's, that puts out very good food that, that you've come across in terms of just how it works?

• 25:49Speaker 03

  Well, the craziest kitchen I've ever seen, like, so I worked at AVEC, which is one of Chicago, one of America's great restaurants. And, you know, it was really a wine bar that ended up putting out such good food that it's won James Beard Awards and all kinds of other accolades, just because the food ended up just kicking butt. But it was not set up that at all. So it was a teeny line of three people, one big wood burning and gas burning, like, kind of oven and a little stove. And what people do out of that, it's just, what we were doing out of that was incredible. But the kitchen that like blows me away the most is the kitchen here in Brooklyn, actually, at Frankie's 457. It's so tiny.

• 26:27Speaker 03

  It's literally like two guys on two induction burners in a space that's like, I don't know, like five feet by 10 feet. And they cook for this huge restaurant at quality. It's like one of my favorite restaurants in, in, in, in America.

• 26:45Tim Ferriss?

  What was the name again?

• 26:46Speaker 03

  Frankie's 457. It's unbelievably good. And it's like, you look at these two guys back there with an, two induction burners, and I just don't know, I just don't know how they do it. And the menu's huge. I mean, it's, it's, and it's delicious. So what people can do out of very small spaces is, um, is pretty incredible.

• 27:07Tim Ferriss?

  So the, for, for people who, who don't know what an induction burner is, and then, correct me if I'm wrong, induction burner is basically a stove top that you plug in and you can put on a countertop. Maybe it's the size of like a large dinner plate. I mean, it depends on what kind you get. But he uses, as I understand it, magnets to heat metal. So you could actually take the pot off, put your hand right on the burner and not burn your hand. You gotta make sure you don't have rings on. But, um, that actually, uh, raises this, this, this question of kind of elegance, right? Because, uh, one of the questions I was gonna ask you later is, what's the most interesting meal you could make in a dorm room? Right? And you could, you could, I mean, induction burners in a five by 10 foot space, I mean,

• 27:51Tim Ferriss?

  that's basically a dorm room that these guys are cooking in. It sounds like if, uh, if you had to... Limit your herbs or spices to three choices for the rest of your life. What would your three, what would your three choices be?

• 28:06Speaker 03

  Herbs or spices? Oh my god, what a horrible, horrible question. Only, only three?

• 28:12Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, or, or I, you know what, I'll give you a little bit of wiggle room. A handful, a handful.

• 28:18Speaker 03

  I mean, I'd have to have chilies of some kinds, any kinds. Uh, there's lots of kinds, but I'd, you know, some, some chilies I would have to have. Um, any herbs or spices. Uh, I'm a, I'd probably have to take basil and tarragon. I'm a huge tarragon guy. Um, spices, I mean, oh my god, how do I pick just one? Uh, god, I don't know, like, cumin is a big, is a, is a really versatile, big spice. Um, I love pink peppercorns, although I don't know if that make the cut. Um, yeah, that's a really hard question.

• 29:02Tim Ferriss?

  Oh, I know, that's why, that's why, this is, this is to get the, to make the shopping list for myself. Now, tarragon, tarragon kind of revolutionized eggs for me. Tarragon and, and, um, white truffle sea salt of all things, which was recommended by a friend of mine. How do you use tarragon?

• 29:19Speaker 03

  Oh, man, you can use tarragon in anything. I love it in straightened salads. Um, you could chop it up with like some parsley and some basil and you can put that on fish. On, I use tarragon on steak. Tarragon, like, little tarragon and maybe a little butter on a steak is delicious. Um, uh, anything seafood, I find tarragon goes also really well with. So you could do, if you're doing a pasta, like lemon, you know, a lemon, tarragon, something seafood pasta. Fill in the blank on the seafood, you pretty much can't go wrong. Um, so I, it's, it's, it's one of those interest, you know, you gotta be careful because you can use, it's strong. So, um, you can overuse it pretty quickly, but if you use it gently, it, um, it's a beautiful flavor.

• 30:03Tim Ferriss?

  You mentioned steak. What is your favorite cut of steak and why?

• 30:07Speaker 03

  Hmm, I, I guess favorite, I guess I'd have to be a ribeye guy. But I eat a lot of skirt steak, a lot of hanger steak. Um, I love braising, so you know, lots of different, you know, the braising cuts, ribs and such. But if I'm gonna have like, if I'm gonna have my last steak, it would be a ribeye.

• 30:24Tim Ferriss?

  When you're cooking ribeye for yourself, just, just for Sam, nobody else, how do you, how do you cook it?

• 30:30Speaker 03

  Uh, grill. I, you know, if I'm doing for myself, but really if I'm doing it for anybody, I, I just throw it on the grill, really simple. Um, and like medium rare to rare. And olive oil, salt, and just sometimes pepper, sometimes not. I'm not a big pepper guy. So I don't put pe- black pepper on much, on pretty much anything really. Um, but a steak is the kind of the one thing that I'd be open to that. And yeah, and away you go. Nothing, nothing fancy.

• 31:01Tim Ferriss?

  And you put the olive oil and salt on beforehand or afterwards?

• 31:05Speaker 03

  Beforehand, yeah. And if, and if I'm gonna do an herb, like sometimes I'll put tarragon or some rosemary. Uh, I always do that afterwards. Cause I find that when you put it on before, it just burns and you lose the flavor. But if you, you hit it afterwards, particularly if you're gonna sear it on the grill and then finish in the oven for a few minutes, which is often the way to do it if you have a, a thick cut. Um, you put that on so it gets, you know, it cooks a little bit to round out the flavor, but it doesn't, uh, doesn't kill the flavor.

• 31:33Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, I always, um, finish, sort of sear and then finish at the oven at a low temperature. And, uh, just let the butter and whatever herbs I'm gonna use kind of soak in from the top down.

• 31:43Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 31:43Tim Ferriss?

  Uh, the, so the pe- the pepper point. You mentioned not much of a black pepper guy, but you also mentioned the pink peppercorns. So what, what would you use pink peppercorns for, which I've never used, or I don't think I've ever used?

• 31:56Speaker 03

  Yeah, you could, I mean, so you could use them on any meat. They like go great on like pork, or if you grind them up as a rub on pork, or um, you could do on steak as well. Um, you can, you can do a fun dressing, a salad dressing with them as part of it. But it becomes part of a, a flavor, whereas like, for me, black pepper, it's used like salt, right? We use it on everything. But salt doesn't, eh, salt becomes part of the flavor. It, it, it elevates the flavor, whereas pepper like layers on top of the flavor. And it's, it, it always just kind of blankets things for me. And I don't know, I just, I don't, I'm just not a fan, uh, uh, of, of that sort of ubiquitous pepper flavor on everything.

• 32:41Tim Ferriss?

  So on the flip side, if, aside from tarragon, if someone, if one of your very close friends were to say, you know, I love Sam, but he really overuses this ingredient. What would that ingredient or condiment or herb or spice be?

• 32:57Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 33:00Speaker 03

  I, I don't know, probably garlic, but we all are guilty of using garlic too much because it's just so damn good. It just makes everything better.

• 33:08Tim Ferriss?

  I, I literally have minced garlic in my tea right now. I'm not kidding. So yeah, I'm guilty of the same sin.

• 33:17Tim Ferriss?

  Oh, God. Uh, how did you first meet the Obamas?

• 33:24Speaker 03

  Um, so, uh, so we're both from Hyde Park, and Hyde Park is on the south side of Chicago, like where the University of Chicago is. And, and, um, you know, well, he was a professor, actually. I had known him just from the neighborhood, uh, and the first, now First Lady, um, when I was in high school. And then, uh, but then lost touch with them for many years and got reconnected with them when I came back from my, uh, my time in Vienna and then subsequent travels around the world, uh, sort of traveled for about four or five years, uh, you know, through Vienna and then passed it. Um, so I got reconnected with them sort of right as the campaign was, was, uh... Was getting going.

• 34:04Tim Ferriss?

  And was that through a vec or how did you guys end up reconnecting?

• 34:08Speaker 03

  Um, so, uh, we reconnected because I ba- after I, when I was in Vienna, I was actually there illegally. I had no worker's permit or anything and ended up sort of getting run out of town. Yeah. Uh, yeah, so that's a story, that's a story for another day.

• 34:23Tim Ferriss?

  Right.

• 34:24Speaker 03

  Uh, and, um, so then I spent about, um, four, four, four more years past that cooking and traveling. And I ended up getting connected to a family that had a place in New Zealand. And so I cooked a couple of seasons down in New Zealand and they were from Chicago. So I, after the second season, I came back with them to, um, to Chicago to work part-time. And the, the father of that family knew, uh, the first lady and happened to run into her, um, on, on a plane. And they got to talking and, you know, and he was telling them, telling the, the first lady about, uh, you know, me cooking for them. And, and, and she's like, oh, Sam, I haven't seen him in years.

• 35:07Speaker 03

  And so we got reconnected and, uh, you know, back then there was no staff. It was basically just them, grandma, well, they had a little bit of help, but, but not much. So I started helping out the first lady as she had to get on the, the campaign trail more and more. And the kids were still very young and so started helping her out with, uh, with cooking some better food for them.

• 35:27Tim Ferriss?

  What meals, what were some favorite meals during that, that intense campaigning period?

• 35:35Speaker 03

  Oh, you know, that's all top secret, am I? Just can't disclose. No, I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. Uh, you know, look, and during that time and, and all the way through, I mean, they, there's, there's never been, uh, any interest in fancy food at all. Really simple, uh, food that everybody's gonna like, you know, lots of chicken or lean proteins, lots of fish. We always do whole grains, so if we're doing rice, there's always brown rice and always, you know, but, you know, good, good serving of vegetables. Um, and just, you know, um, n- nothing, it, it's always, I think the thing that people, um, you know, think about when they think of private chef, you think, oh, fancy food, but really you're in your home, right?

• 36:18Speaker 03

  So people don't want to feel like they're in a restaurant and that same is true in the White House. And I think, um, so we always kept it really, really simple, um, and never. Never did anything. I mean, we ate like everybody else eats. Nothing, nothing crazy. We love a good burger. You know, um, so things like that.

• 36:36Tim Ferriss?

  What if, if hypothetically, uh, you had, let's say, you know, five years from now, you decide, you know what? Just for the hell of it, I'm gonna have a couple of restaurants in Chicago. And, uh, you go back at some point, you're the owner and you, you decide to kind of hang out at one of the restaurants. And lo and behold, the Obamas come in for dinner.

• 36:59Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm.

• 36:59Tim Ferriss?

  And they say, Sam, make us whatever you think. We'll bring back the memories. What would you make them?

• 37:05Speaker 03

  What would I bring back the memories? What would I make them? Uh, that's a great question. I guess it depends. The first thing I'd say is it depends on what the season is. Because I think one of the keys to great food is cooking with the season. Um.

• 37:17Tim Ferriss?

  Summertime.

• 37:18Speaker 03

  Summertime. So summertime, I'd probably start with, uh, like, uh, a really nice tomato salad. Because, um, one of the best things about cooking in the White House has been the First Lady's garden. And we got to pick, you know, awesome produce right out of the garden right before dinner. So I'd probably start with an awesome tomato salad, um, maybe do some barbecue chicken. Um, uh, with, with some good spice. I don't know, uh, maybe some potatoes. And, uh, just a bunch of vegetables. So we would pick like zucchini and I'd do zucchini and basil. Maybe a little eggplant or some peppers. I don't know, it just depends what's going on.

• 37:57Speaker 03

  We've grown some great corn. So maybe do some, some really good corn with that. Um, something like that.

• 38:04Tim Ferriss?

  What, um, what would the tomato salad look like?

• 38:09Speaker 03

  Uh, I love toma- if you've got great tomatoes, you don't want to do much to them. I mean, I think, um, if you don't have great tomatoes, then you gotta work with them some. But you probably should just do a different salad then. Um, I, I like it with a little onion. And on this one, like typically have a red onion, really thinly sliced. One of my big things, I hate thickly sliced red onion. It's like as thin as you can slice it, thinner the better. Uh, but actually in the tomato salad, white onion finely cut too is, is good. Um. With some nice uh olive oil and you know like a white balsamic is really nice on tomato salad. It's got a touch of sweetness um and any any number of herbs like you know you could do part whole leaf parsley

• 38:51Speaker 03

  and some basil, maybe throw in some like green beans or wax beans in there that are blanched. Something like that you know sounds pretty good to me.

• 38:58Tim Ferriss?

  That sounds great. What other pet peeves do you have aside from overuse of pepper, thickly sliced onions? I love pet peeves. I've got a million of them myself. So what what other things make you crazy when it comes to food?

• 39:13Speaker 03

  Um, I think the thing that makes me the most crazy in food is just when people try too hard and they try to be something that they're not. Like there's nothing more than I love than like a perfect fried wing or like a an awesome burger. But I hate when there's like food that looks all fancy but tastes like crap like. It's like just just you know if you can do food that's beautiful and super well composed and and like I I appreciate that too. It's not that I don't uh like that, but if you're just throwing foam everywhere and doing all some weird concoctions because that's sort of trendy. Like I hate the trends in food. I like real just well executed food and you can tell it has a lot of love in it and a lot of authenticity in it.

• 39:57Speaker 03

  And I think that that for me is is most important. Um, so I I I think generally that's the thing that like that determines my experience uh in eating and eating somebody's food.

• 40:08Tim Ferriss?

  That was that was something that really surprised me when I got to know uh quite a few chefs in writing the Four Hour Chef was that uh when they came to visit say my house for dinner or someone else's, the last thing they wanted to have was a five course meal.

• 40:24Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 40:25Tim Ferriss?

  Like the last thing they wanted to have was some type of foam sprayed onto their plate with like tweezer cuisine on top of it. They're just like, no, just give me like a a really fatty burger or

• 40:35Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 40:36Tim Ferriss?

  something really simple that I can enjoy consuming. Uh, the uh what what made the White House garden unique? Cause I know that that a lot of thought went into that and I've become, I've never gardened. Uh, but I've become very fascinated by it because I when I went to This village called Ogimi in Okinawa at one point has the longest median lifespan in the world. And I just noticed that nearly everyone gardened in some capacity.

• 41:06Speaker 03

  Interesting.

• 41:07Tim Ferriss?

  So what made the White House garden unique?

• 41:10Speaker 03

  Well, there's a lot unique about that garden. You know, one, it's the first garden since Eleanor Roosevelt Victory Garden during World War II, which was a really powerful symbolic garden, but it was actually quite small and really didn't produce food to eat. So the White House garden, the First Lady's garden, is really the first garden since the late 1890s and that actually produced food. And, you know, it was designed, its whole purpose was to really shine a light on food, where it comes from, how it's grown, how hard it is to grow good food, and really lift up farmers all over America that are, you know, producing the nourishment that we

• 41:52Speaker 03

  need to survive and make it educational. And I think that's really, you know, so it was a working life garden that we ate from every day, but also we had kids come down for tours on a weekly basis. The kids would come and plant with the First Lady and then harvest and cook with her a couple of times a year. We had a compost to really talk about the importance of giving back to the soil, building soil for fertility, which is a huge issue across the country. And we also had the first ever beehive on the White House grounds, which is just awesome. And we got tons of honey, but also could talk to the kids about pollinators and why they're so important.

• 42:35Speaker 03

  And we have a huge, huge problem with colony collapse disorder and we're losing bees and other pollinators at, you know, really alarming rates, which have massive implications for our economy and our ability to produce food. So, you know, I think when you look at the whole picture and what it's accomplished, since that garden's implanted, gardening across the country has skyrocketed, it's up over 30%. And so it's been really exciting and it was just, it was a ton of fun.

• 43:05Tim Ferriss?

  And you mentioned, you mentioned a couple of things that I think are really important. The magnitude of the impact of bees is something I, I never really understood and I still need to understand more, but people talk about the butterfly effect and I feel like, you know, the bee effect, sort of the ripple, the cascade of different sort of ecosystem changes that bees are involved with is really astonishing. The second thing I would encourage people to look into is what you mentioned, which is the soil depletion. And I remember at one point, maybe one of the listeners can, can find this, but seeing data that,

• 43:43Tim Ferriss?

  I believe it was from China, that looked at the incidence and frequency of cancer diagnosis in different regions in China, and you could pretty much predict how much cancer there would be based on topsoil depletion in different regions, because they would end up with trace mineral deficiencies, like selenium and so on. And I remember reading about this at one point, of something like in certain areas because of monocrops, you know, like the wheat and soy and so on, in the US, the topsoil has gone from whatever, 10 feet to like 10 inches. And what do you think needs to be done, or what can be done to help reverse that trend?

• 44:26Speaker 03

  So there's, there's a lot that needs to be done. And I'd say it's, it's, it's a topic that doesn't get anywhere near the attention that it deserves. But everything comes, everything is based on the health of our soil. It is the reason why we have such a prosperous nation was that we had the best soil in the world and it helped us produce a surplus of crops, which allowed, you know, big parts of our population to go on and build and create and do other things. And the, the dramatic loss across the nation on, on our, on our topsoil is something that is, it couldn't be a more important issue and it couldn't be a harder one to make. Get people excited about because it's like dirt, like what are you talking about?

• 45:09Speaker 03

  You know, there's lots of things that need to be done. And I think they're starting to see some change. I think people are starting to wake up to this. We need to do a much better job at rotating our crops to rebuild fertility. Right now, we're basically growing just a couple of crops and using synthetic fertilizers to sort of make up for the lack of fertility in the soil. That's a problem. We're having all kinds of problems stemming from that runoff in our water, you know, massive algae blooms in the Gulf, killing sea life. There's lots of, lots of challenges going on there. So I think we need to rotate crops. I think we need to change our practices to really focus on rebuilding that fertility

• 45:51Speaker 03

  using different sources of fertilizer, natural fertilizers. And you're starting to see people taking back some of that land and rebuilding, and hopefully that will continue to grow. And people, I mean, I think are going to continually have to ask, you know, work on, you know, sourcing food that's coming from farmers that are, you know, doing those kind of practices that are more sustainable. I think the thing that people don't realize is that if we use those kind of practices, that is the best, one of the best tools we have to sequester carbon. So agriculture is not only a challenge when it comes to sustainability and our environmental challenges with greenhouse gas emissions, it's a significant producer of, but it actually, unlike other aspects of the challenge, it can actually be part of the solution.

• 46:36Speaker 03

  And so there's, there's, there's exciting opportunity there that we don't see in too many other sectors that need to change.

• 46:41Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, I'm, I'm excited about the potential for kind of soil replenishment because I feel like it could be effective in marketing product. Does that make sense? Like there's a, there's a kind of economic self-interest that I think could be harnessed if somebody could create the proper campaign. What, what do you see, or what do you think the future is, if any, of, say, organic subsidies for people who really want to, or large companies that really want to produce organic produce, but view it as cost prohibitive or something along those lines?

• 47:19Speaker 03

  Yeah, so this is obviously a very complicated, complicated question and really complicated politics. I think the place, and this again is hard to get people super excited about, but I think the place to really start is in research. So over the last about 50 years, we poured the vast majority, I mean, you know, hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars, billions of dollars into researching just a couple crops. And fruits and vegetables writ large have not gotten, mostly it's gone to corn and soy, some wheat, but mostly corn and soy. And that has allowed corn and soy to be produced much more efficiently than it used to.

• 48:01Speaker 03

  And so a lot of the price difference, we talk about like the relative cost of, of say, sugar and other things versus a fruit or a vegetable is because we figured out how to grow those crops much more efficiently. And so if we invest that same kind of research to try to figure out how to grow fruits and vegetables more efficiently, we're going to make up a lot of the ground. Now, part of the challenge is that, you know, the people who are currently growing, say, their fruits and vegetables, no matter whether they're doing it organic or not organic, they like the fact that they're the only ones growing it. So they not support subsidies for other people to grow more fruits and vegetables. Oh, that's interesting. So there's really tough politics because in Washington, if the people you're trying

• 48:43Speaker 03

  to help are against you, it's going to be very hard to move anything through. It's hard to move anything through if they're with you because there's always going to be people on the other side fighting very hard, investing a lot of money and seeing that not happen. So on this particular one, the politics are really hard to get Congress to shift where we're putting some of these subsidies. Now, on the organic side, which is a different set of questions, I think the market's going to have to continue to drive the change and you're seeing organic, you know, continue to grow at a very rapid rate, although it's a still a very small part of the overall food economy. But I think the more consumers demand it, I think the more it's going to get grown

• 49:27Speaker 03

  and it's going to become increasingly more affordable for farmers to produce it when we get some more scale there.

• 49:35Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, it's such a thorny gnarly topic. And I would suggest, just as a side note for folks who perhaps want to eat organic but have to pick and choose for financial reasons or otherwise, there's a list called the Dirty Dozen, and I think it might be the Clean 15, which is sort of the 12 items, produce items that are best avoided, that have the highest concentrations of pesticides. But I think the research is really, as you noted, super important because if, it's one thing in the abstract to say, "Organic's better for reasons A, B, and C," and avoiding synthetic pesticides, but if someone could actually look at, say, the endocrine impact of estrogenic

• 50:18Tim Ferriss?

  compounds that are found in synthetic fertilizers that therefore affect fertility or whatever, then I think the, it could get more airtime.

• 50:26Speaker 03

  I will say just one thing on this point, though. You know, I think people should try to eat organic when they can, but I think they need to eat fruits and vegetables first and foremost. So I think part of the thing to be concerned about is, well, I would much rather people eat conventional, any conventional fruit or vegetable than like organic chips or organic cupcakes. And I think, you know, we're getting better, people are raising more awareness, our agricultural practices are getting better largely because this is getting more and more expensive, so farmers are learning how to be more diligent about their applications. There's obviously a lot, lot longer to go, but there's going to be some things where

• 51:11Speaker 03

  we're going to need some insecticides and some pesticides. And I think that's okay as long as they're being used responsibly. But I don't want people, I think part of the thing we need to avoid is sort of fear-based, "If you eat this, it's going to kill you," because there's just not the evidence there. There's reasons for serious concern and continual engagement and pushing on some of these topics, but it shouldn't keep anybody from consuming that, kind of that balanced diet that we know is important.

• 51:42Tim Ferriss?

  Do you, um, there was an article that came out recently by Steve Case called "The Future of Food is Food." What do you, what is your, what are your thoughts on meal replacements like Soylent and so on?

• 51:57Speaker 03

  So I actually tweeted about, um, I tweeted about that article. I couldn't agree with Steve more. I mean, Steve basically makes the argument that sort of high-tech, uh, arti- like artificially put-together drinks that, you know, are based on some science, you know, kind of could replace food. And I think the vision for, for the folks at Soylent is that they can create a perfect meal. So instead of eating a bunch of junk, you can just conveniently drink this. So I, I, I don't, I don't hate the sort of the vision there in the sense that they're trying to do something good.

• 52:36Speaker 03

  But if the future is a disgusting, tasteless, uh, soulless beverage to sustain, you know, just to keep us alive, that's not a future I have much interest in being a part of. I think, I think it lacks authenticity. I think it lacks flavor. I think it lacks happiness and joy. And all of that goes into what a good, good nourishment means to me. And I think, I, I, I see a role, maybe with elderly people and others for improved sort of dietary supplement, you know, uh, meals like that. But I don't think that's a solution that I, for one, have any interest in participating in.

• 53:17Speaker 03

  Uh, I think real good food grown properly that supports the people who are growing it, that supports the health of the people who are eating it, that also is damn good, is where we should all be, you know, driving for.

• 53:30Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, I've, I've done an about-face on this stuff because I've always been a kind of supplement addict and, uh, been infatuated with pills and potions and whatnot as, as supplementation. But I mean, they're, they're called supplements for a reason and I've really found that, um... Echoing the sentiment of say Nassim Taleb wrote The Black Swan and anti-fragile. So he uses a term called epistemological arrogance, which is overestimating how much you understand about anything as a human. And I think it's naive to think, I've come to this conclusion anyway, that you can, that we would understand every element of

• 54:12Tim Ferriss?

  what's in an apple, for instance, or what's in a slice of ribeye. Like, we just, there's so much uncharted territory that it's naive to think we could take the four or five things we've isolated, put them in a pill, and confer the same nutritional benefit, for instance. I mean, that's kind of point number one. But yeah, it's a very interesting, it's a very fascinating subject, but I've gone completely in the whole food direction, just trying to consume a spectrum of colors every day, for instance.

• 54:49Speaker 03

  So can I, I want to add something to that. I think that is, on the nutritional side, that basic point and understanding of our limitations couldn't be more right. I mean, we've tried very hard to kind of reduce our health to one vitamin, or fiber, or this, or that, in a very reductionist way, and utterly miss the interplay between all of these different vitamins, nutrients, fiber, protein, and also, by the way, completely miss how our body processes. So it's turning out that, you know, we have 100 trillion bacteria in our gut, 100 trillion, which really what we're doing is feeding that bacteria, which then in turn feeds us. And it's gonna, the evidence is emerging that the microbiome,

• 55:34Speaker 03

  the gut bacteria is gonna be One of the most important things to focus on in terms of improving our health, and that we've lost quite a bit of diversity in our gut. And we don't, but there's, you know, a couple hundred species of bacteria in our gut, a little less. And we are just trying to figure out what does what and how they interact. And it's, everybody's different. The complexities here are just overwhelming. We know that they need to be fed a high diet of fiber, lots of fruits and vegetables, basically what they feed. And from birth, so like we, for a long time, there was parts of breast milk that we, that babies couldn't digest. And we didn't understand, we didn't think they were important. But turns out, actually, all those elements in breast milk are feeding the emerging biome in the young,

• 56:19Speaker 03

  in the baby's gut, which is then gives it, deals with the immune system and inflammation, all these vital things and digesting of food. So there's like, the complexity is beyond anything that we can comprehend right now. And I think we have continually, like, we're over and over, tried to say was, oh, it's fat is the problem. And like, turns out, okay, wait, fat's not the problem. Oh, it's a deficiency in omega this. And now, okay, well, it turns out, well, that's good, but it's not certainly the panacea that was made out to be. You know, every time we do this, we get it wrong. And so I, I agree with you. I mean, I think there's some things that have been tested over millennia, and which is that kind of balanced, good diet of, you know, whole grains and lots of fruits and vegetables, lean proteins.

• 57:04Speaker 03

  And I think that's where we, we're safest is when we stay in that kind of, that kind of space.

• 57:13Tim Ferriss?

  And I'm glad you mentioned safest, because it's, it's not just, oops, I didn't cover all my bases. When you take a very reductionist approach, for instance, when people, when the media got its hands on the so-called promises of beta-carotene, and people started consuming massive amounts of beta-carotene in isolation, it can actually cause a lot of problems when you're not sort of consuming it in its natural environment, so to speak. But I'd love to shift gears and ask some, some rapid-fire questions. They don't have to have rapid answers. But when you think of the word "successful," who is the first person who comes to mind and why?

• 57:56Speaker 03

  Well, two people come to mind. Barack Obama and my father, but for wildly different reasons. Barack Obama's, you know, success to me, I measure based on impact and the amount of impact that somebody is trying to have in a positive way on the world around him, not by money, but it's sort of what you do with the places you've been given. And, you know, there's lots of legitimate disagreements in politics, and I'm sure there's legitimate disagreements with some of the things that the president has done. But he is, you know, I know firsthand on a daily basis that here's somebody who's trying

• 58:38Speaker 03

  to, and has had a massive positive impact on the world around him. So that's something that, you know, I very much look up to and admire and, you know, in my much, much, much smaller way, try to figure out how I can have the biggest positive impact on the world around me. And I'd say, but on the flip side, you know, but that takes, you know, there's a lot of ambition that goes with that and, you know, disappointments when you fail. On the flip side, like success, my father is, he is a, he's a fifth grade teacher, has he just retired after 25 years. He lives an incredibly humble life and, you know, is a, you know, a union guy growing up and a teacher and a union guy and sort of in the school.

• 59:22Speaker 03

  And he, he's utterly content. He has a good community of friends. He's, you know, has roof over his head and meals on his table. In fact, when I first looked at a restaurant in Chicago, he had never spent $20 on a meal for himself, which I only found out when I invited him in for a meal at the end of my summertime there. So he's just very content in like the simple pleasures and the sort of a simple life. And that's something that is, you know, I also try to take into what success looks like is that kind of contentness and being appreciative of what you have.

• 1:00:06Tim Ferriss?

  Right, having the appreciation, not just the drive for achievement.

• 1:00:10Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:00:11Tim Ferriss?

  What's, what book or what is a book that you've gifted most often or gifted very often to other people?

• 1:00:20Speaker 03

  Hmm, I've gifted. I've been pushing around The Art of Fielding over the last year or two by Chad Harbuck. I love that book. It's like, it's, it's, so it's a baseball theme, but it's really about life and, and, and all that goes with it and complexities of relationships. And I don't know, there's something, that, that book just sucked me in and, and I love the feeling of being sucked in, which, you know, doesn't happen with that intensity too often. So I, that was a good one.

• 1:00:48Tim Ferriss?

  The Art of Fielding. Are there any, any documentaries, documentary films or movies that have sucked you in in that way?

• 1:00:55Speaker 03

  Hmm. I love documentaries. I'm a, I'm a big fan. And a good, and a great movie as well. The, the last one I just saw actually just came out, which I really loved called Just Eat It. And it's about food waste. Well, we, we waste 40% of the food we produce, which is just insane. There's no other major like life system that is so inefficient. And it's about this couple that basically for, I forget how long, six months decides to only eat food that they, has been wasted, that they find, thrown away in some way, shape or form. And it's unbelievable story. It's so really

• 1:01:36Speaker 03

  well done. It's only an hour. I think it just aired on MSNBC actually, but they, they are having to have to give away food. They find so much of it. They can't eat it all. And it's, so it's very powerful, very well done. But that's the one that's top of mind.

• 1:01:51Tim Ferriss?

  I'll have to check that out. That makes me think, there's a book I read a long time ago. I think it's called The Man Who Gave Up Money or The Man Who Stopped Using Money, something along those lines, but it delves into sort of the dumpster diving, friggin movement, I guess they call them instead of vegans. Really fascinating. What?

• 1:02:13Tim Ferriss?

  What hundred dollar or less purchase has had the biggest positive impact on your life in the last six months to a year? Let's just, whatever comes to mind, doesn't have to be in that timeframe.

• 1:02:24Speaker 03

  Yeah, the recent purchase, I got a Kindle recently, which I hadn't had before, which has been great. You know, I know people, I'm like way behind the curve and not the highest tech way to read things, but it's been great because I'm all over the place and so that's helped. I also got an ice bucket and it's made the rosé that much colder as summer is starting to hit and that's been, oh, an investment well worthwhile.

• 1:02:54Tim Ferriss?

  That's a good call, ice bucket.

• 1:02:56Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:02:57Tim Ferriss?

  Love rosé. There's a great, you know, I grew up on Long Island, there's a wonderful rosé from Wolfher Estates.

• 1:03:04Speaker 03

  Yeah, I know that, it's really good.

• 1:03:07Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, the winemaker, Roman, is just amazing. Not too expensive either. What does the first sixty minutes of your day look like? What are morning rituals, whether when you were at the White House or now, that have been consistent for you?

• 1:03:25Speaker 03

  Yeah. So, pretty consistent, basic routine. The one variable in that, like, I used to do a lot more, I don't do anymore, like, the first thing I love to do from my perfect world is to do a short stint of meditation for like ten or fifteen minutes. It's been hard for me to keep that, it was impossible for me to do that at the White House for whatever reason, I just think mentally, quieting and slowing my mind, which is something that I just wouldn't do, as hard as I tried. And exhaustion also played a role. But I wake up and work out, five or six days a week, do about thirty minutes of cardio and then do weights of various sort of sets.

• 1:04:09Tim Ferriss?

  What type of cardio do you do?

• 1:04:11Speaker 03

  So I'll do ten minutes on the bike and then now I've been doing like twelve minute, you know, interval run, and then I'm doing like another ten minutes, like twelve incline walking at three point five on the treadmill. Sometimes I do the elliptical in there. And then, and then do weights. And then, and then, so in the White House, it was always, you know, take a shower, get ready, and then I do oatmeal, a banana, and coffee. Since I've been out of the White House, I've been doing eggs, one of, you know, a couple ways.

• 1:04:53Speaker 03

  Some like whole wheat toast, maybe some avocado, you know, salmon, and then, and coffee. That's been the routine, and then away I go.

• 1:05:01Tim Ferriss?

  Do you do, do you do anything in particular before bed?

• 1:05:05Speaker 03

  Uh, I don't have that same kind of routine at night. Often because nights, there's like, much more variable. Like, the morning has always been the time that I take for myself, and carve out, because after that, it's like anybody's guess what's gonna happen. But try to, you know, try to come, bring down a little bit, but oftentimes, in, certainly at the White House, I was working till one, two, three in the morning, pretty consistently, so, it was sort of like you worked till you fell off, fell off your chair, crawled to bed, and then got up a few hours later and started doing it all over again. So, so I don't have that same kind of night routine.

• 1:05:45Tim Ferriss?

  Got it. And when you, when you meditated, what type of meditation did you do? What did that, what did that look like?

• 1:05:53Speaker 03

  Um, so I, so I, the, the woman who taught me is one of the most amazing people I've ever known. She was an eighty-year-old woman, who's actually from France, who I met when I was traveling on the border of Malaysia and Thailand on an overnight train. She was eighty years old, and she had spent the last, like, twenty-plus years of her life just traveling with a teeny little, like, eight-pound backpack, and that's all she had. And she went everywhere, and she was just the most amazing person, and she, so it's like, you know, but she's not like a, you know, formal teacher. So, you know, just trying to sit up, you know, have good posture, and just, you know,

• 1:06:35Speaker 03

  fundamentally relax and focus on my breathing, it's like as sophisticated as I got. And trying to let your mind relax, and, and repeating that, forcing your mind to get back to that state, which is, you know, it's always been such a challenge, it's so hard. Has, is sort of how I would do it for as long as I, as I could. But when I do it, I feel so much better, and so much more grounded, and, and sort of calm. Through the day, it's a, but it takes a lot of discipline to carve out the time in any given day.

• 1:07:08Tim Ferriss?

  I've, yeah, I found for myself, because I meditate fifteen to twenty minutes each morning, usually twenty. Two things really interesting. Number one, it takes about fifteen minutes for me just to let the dust or the mud settle.

• 1:07:25Tim Ferriss?

  So I really only feel like I'm meditating in the calm sense for the last five minutes, but it's the, you need, I need the fifteen minutes just as a warm up or a cool down maybe. And then secondly, that posture, I've noticed if I just sit with very good posture and kind of lengthen my spine, imagine my head being kind of pulled up on a string, even if I don't get to some sublime state, if I just focus and sit that way for twenty minutes, there's a huge benefit for me anyway.

• 1:07:53Speaker 03

  I feel the same way about that, yeah.

• 1:07:55Tim Ferriss?

  I would love to ask some questions from people on Facebook and Twitter who are very excited that we were going to be chatting. The first is a tough one, but it's from Andrew Zimmer.

• 1:08:08Speaker 03

  Love that man, he's awesome.

• 1:08:10Tim Ferriss?

  Andrew's great, also has been on the podcast, and he wanted to ask some questions because he hears them very often, he gets asked them very often, and is always curious how other people answer them. So the first is, if it's illegal to sell cigarettes to minors or drugs slash booze, why do we let fast food or sugar drinks into schools?

• 1:08:29Speaker 03

  Yeah, so, great question. So, a couple of points. So one, because of the new standards that are in play, there are no more sugary drinks in schools, and those are out. And I actually need to give the, you know, the beverage companies credit, they actually voluntarily, voluntarily pulled out most of those beverages around, starting in around 2007. But the new standards utterly eliminate all sugary drinks. You can have a low calorie in high school, you can have a low calorie Gatorade, and you can have no calorie drinks. So diet sodas are allowed in high schools, not in middle schools, and certainly not in lower schools. So those drinks are out. Now, on the fast food side,

• 1:09:12Speaker 03

  I have always been pretty appalled that some of these, particularly the less healthy companies have set up shop in high schools. Now, this is not ubiquitous by any stretch of the imagination, but they definitely exist in some number. And I actually need to look and see because their food does not meet the standards, so unless they're changing their offerings. So I am not sure how many, like where they are in the evolution of either what they're offering in schools, or if some of them have had to pull out. You know, the truth is, I don't know the answer to that, but I'll dig into that and come back to you on it. But I agree, I think it's really inappropriate to be serving, you know, have a fast food, pretty unhealthy restaurant set up in a, in a high school.

• 1:09:56Speaker 03

  I find that to be, I've always found that to be very off-putting.

• 1:09:59Tim Ferriss?

  Cool. Yeah, would love for people listening who participate on the blog, obviously there'll be a post with all the links and resources and so on, including things like organizations like American Farmland Trust that I've done stuff with, if you want to sort of get involved with some of these things. But I would love to hear ideas for what types of campaigns or angles could be taken to remedy that from folks. I do pay attention to the comments. Next question is from Cinema Air, this is on Twitter. Best use of wine that's too old to drink?

• 1:10:34Speaker 03

  So, you know, depending on the kind of wine, and you know, I think there's, there's probably a little magic depending on where you are and how it goes, but you know, that's how you make vinegar. So, you know, grape juice turns into vinegar, right? So there you could, depending on how it goes, you can use it kind of in that, in that way. A lot of people use it for cooking, but you know, no, no real chef would say you should. If it's not good to drink with, it's really not good to cook with. So the truth is like, there's a... There's not much to do with it, I gotta be honest. I would get one. At least not that I know of. Maybe somebody out there's got a good thing, but basically like drink it before it goes bad is my best advice to you.

• 1:11:20Speaker 03

  And you know, the thing that, you know, if you get just one of those simple air pumps with the with the rubber top that pulls the air out, you add, you know, a week or two, depending on the wine, of life to it. And that's what I use. You know, we use that in our house. And it makes a big difference. So there's nothing worth. There's like one of the worst feelings in the world is dumping out a half a bottle of wine that you didn't get to finish. So that's pain.

• 1:11:46Tim Ferriss?

  The the vacuum is really cheap and really effective. I I use the same device. On that point, Stefan, I think it's Stefan, Bendel, what should home chefs stop doing? So wasting wine would be one.

• 1:12:05Speaker 03

  Wow. What should home chefs stop doing? Love. There's there's a few things.

• 1:12:12Speaker 03

  What should home chefs start doing? I need to spend more time with home chefs to give you the best answer. I think dragging the knife across the cutting board, like as like a shovel is something that like you're never supposed to do. If you need to like move like the vegetables or scoop them up, use the backside of the knife. But like scraping the knife on the cutting board just drives me crazy. It's just really bad for your knife. Dulls it immediately. Something that I cringe at. I think chefs, the home cooks need to work with heat. Not be afraid of of of heat more. So particularly like when you're searing fish, so you need that pan hot. And so letting like putting it in, like getting your pan super hot and then putting your fish down and leaving it

• 1:12:55Speaker 03

  and not touching it and letting it get that nice, you know, good sear, good golden brown on it before you touch it is like key to fish. And most, most people don't get their pan hot enough. Don't heat it. Don't ever get it hot enough. Don't take the time to heat it. And then play around with the fish, which which ends up really hurting its its ultimate. Feel, but I think allowing, I think maybe the one thing that's the big difference between a pro and a home cook is that like the, the, the getting real color on things, be it meat or any vegetable that's on the grill or anything you're putting in the pan, like just let it go. When you think it's like ready, like give it another minute or two and like get that really dark, dark color on it. It adds a ton of flavor.

• 1:13:37Tim Ferriss?

  When can you tell that your pan is hot enough for that nice sear on a fish?

• 1:13:43Speaker 03

  So like when you put the oil in, like you don't want it to immediately start smoking, like then your oil's done. Like don't put it in there. If it's like, you put it in, it's like smoke, but like you should see the oil get that kind of those lines into that kind of shimmer and it should just start to give off a little bit of like, you could see just a little bit of smoke. Um, that's when you're, you're ready to go, but it should be like hot. Like when you put it in, it should be like, like it should be like go crazy. Like if it's just like a little mild bubble, like you're not, you weren't ready.

• 1:14:14Tim Ferriss?

  And what, what type of oil do you like to use with, with fish? For instance?

• 1:14:19Speaker 03

  You know, you can use a lot, like you can use olive oil. It has a lower smoke point, but you can, you can get away with it. Um, I like grape seed oil is a great oil to cook with. Um, uh, you know, you can do high heat canola is totally fine. Um, uh, those are probably the main ones to, to go with. Peanut oil is awesome, but that's a little expensive.

• 1:14:40Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah. I've been playing myself a little bit with avocado oil because it has high, you know, omega three content, decent smoke point, but it's so rich. It's, uh, you can some kind, depending on the food, you can either enhance or completely contaminate what you're trying to, trying to make. Uh, next question is from Chaos Sonata. Uh, when you fall into a rut in the kitchen, uh, what book, resource or person do you turn to for inspiration?

• 1:15:09Speaker 03

  Um, so I don't, yeah, it's a good, I mean, I try to get out and eat or go to the store or go like see and feel and touch and smell is the thing that I try to do when I'm, when I'm just sort of feel dead and use the actual ingredients to inspire what I'm gonna do. But I'd say the book that I real, that I look at, I really don't look at cookbooks that a ton anymore, but the one recently that I have is all of Ottolenghi's books are awesome.

• 1:15:36Tim Ferriss?

  How do you, oh, wait a second here. I know this name. Uh, how, how do you spell that name or the first name?

• 1:15:41Speaker 03

  Um, Ottolenghi, let me, let me, um, O-T-T-O-L-E-N, uh, let me, let me just pull it up for you.

• 1:15:53Speaker 03

  Um, O-T-T-O-L-E-N-G-H-I. Um, he is an incredible chef, him and his partner. Uh, actually one is, he's, uh, you know, they're Palestinian and Israeli, uh, uh, team, couple. And, um, they have Plenty is probably their most famous book, but they have Jerusalem and plenty more. Their books are just spectacular and the recipes are simple, but so delicious. Um, I, I, I, I've definitely cooked a few out of them and they're always, they're always awesome.

• 1:16:27Tim Ferriss?

  If someone is new to healthy cooking, where would you suggest they start? What could they start with as a, yeah, and anything simple they could, they could use to get the ball rolling?

• 1:16:39Speaker 03

  In terms of like a dish?

• 1:16:41Tim Ferriss?

  Uh, uh, dish, stocking the kitchen, un-stocking the kitchen. It was, it's, it's a general question. So I'd say you can interpret it any way you want.

• 1:16:52Speaker 03

  So I think the key is like starting simple. I think people, whenever they approach like, okay, I want to make a change. They think I gotta overhaul everything. And so then they try to do a dramatic thing. And then, and then of course it's not sustainable. You can't keep that up. You, you revert back to kind of who you've been and it, then you just completely stop. So I would think like little things. So one place to start is vinegar. If you want to start small, like getting really good vinegar makes us like a salad go from really uninspired to really delicious. So one place that I did actually invest a little If you're gonna invest a little resource in is getting some really nice vinegar to make really beautiful salads. And salads are like some, some, some kind of green, like a good combo is some kind of,

• 1:17:33Speaker 03

  some kind of leaf, um, some kind of texture, be it cucumber or fennel or, you know, various things. Acidity, so you could add, you know, any kind of citrus fruit is always great, or just a really nice vinegar, some nuts of some kind, and a cheese of some kind, like a Parmesan or a pecorino or different, if you, like, that kind of basic components, it's hard to really make it terrible. Sometimes cheese can throw you off, so you could, you know, play around with that. But you get good texture, you get good flavor, and if you have a nice vinegar, like, the world is yours. And that's a really good place to just add some salad on, and, you know, to your dinner is a, is a great place to start. But I would just try to add a piece of fruit, try to add another thing of vegetables at, at dinner.

• 1:18:18Speaker 03

  Like, if you just start there, those two things, and I think the other main thing to start is drinking more water. Um, eh, there's nothing better than water. The more water you drink, the less, you know, sugary beverages you're gonna drink, which is, you know, really key if you're going to try to live a healthier life. And, um, you know, tha- that's a great place to start. And then from there, you can, you build from there.

• 1:18:42Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, the water, just to echo that, for people who might be following a diet of any type, slow carb or paleo or whatever, to try to lose fat, if your liver is burdened by even partial dehydration, it's just not going to do a very good job of helping you to, you know, oxidize fat. So I've, I've noticed tremendously, even with getting into, say, ketosis, because I'm experimenting with that, more water I drink, the more I walk, uh, the better off I am, the faster I'll drop into, say, ketosis. Um, but, uh, the, the other thing, just on your point with, um, nuts and cheese, if, if I've, it seems like with almost any dish, if someone wants to impress a dinner guest,

• 1:19:25Tim Ferriss?

  just put Parmesan and sliced almonds on anything and it looks really, it looks really fancy and it tastes amazing.

• 1:19:30Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:19:31Tim Ferriss?

  Uh, and on, on that note, uh, this is Will McClellan, um,

• 1:19:38Tim Ferriss?

  There may not be a best meal, but what's the best meal to impress a girl with, but is easy to make? This is, I'm sure, a question, this is, guys have a phobia, a lot of guys, of cooking in any capacity, so what would be a one meal that might impress a girl, but that is easy to make?

• 1:19:56Speaker 03

  That's funny. Uh, well, I was just talking to one of my best friends, in fact, that guy was with me in Vienna, and, and, and he was telling me about a date he was on just yesterday, and he was saying, "Oh yeah, I cooked that risotto again," you know, he's like, "Man, you taught me that, that one time, and I've grown with that for the last 10 years." Uh, I think a risotto is a really good, very easy dish, uh, to make, that, um, that you can do a lot of things with, that seems very fancy and impressive, but isn't that hard. Uh, a basic risotto is, you start, you know, you start with like an onion or a shallot, you cook that down, you cook your rice, you have a, a stock of some kind, so you can buy

• 1:20:37Speaker 03

  a nice chicken stock, or a vegetable, um, uh, seafood stock, depending on what you're gonna put in there, and make sure that's hot, and then you're just adding some stock as you go, and you, so, sorry, onions, and then you put the rice in, mix it around, a little white wine, and let that evaporate, and then you're just adding stock as you go until the rice is like, done, you want it to be a little, you know, al dente, you want it to be a little, have a little tooth to it, so you don't want it mushy, um, and then you just finish it with whatever you want, if you're gonna have like, some scallops in there, you can do a whole seafood thing, you can do a lamb risotto, you could, you can do a vegetable risotto, you can do anything you want, and it's hard to mess it up, because you finish it with a little butter, some olive oil, and a bunch of Parmesan cheese, so like, it's like, hard

• 1:21:20Speaker 03

  to go wrong there, um, and it's sort of one of those dishes that, uh, it's hard to make it perfect, but it's, it's, it's-

• 1:21:30Tim Ferriss?

  Easy to make it good?

• 1:21:31Speaker 03

  Easy to make it good.

• 1:21:32Tim Ferriss?

  God, that's so true for so many things in life, right? So, so I wanna get a little granular on this, 'cause I'd actually like to try to make it this weekend, so you, you, you take the onions, or the shallots, those are, uh- Pretty thinly sliced, right?

• 1:21:47Speaker 03

  Yeah, you wanna dice those up.

• 1:21:49Tim Ferriss?

  Dice those up.

• 1:21:49Speaker 03

  You want to make them, you know, very small dice, like a mince.

• 1:21:52Tim Ferriss?

  Got it. And then you throw that in the pan or pot, I guess pot in this case, with some like olive oil and you just, uh, would you have olive oil? Would you, would you have some type of oil in there to start with?

• 1:22:02Speaker 03

  Yep, yep. So you have some olive oil, you put that in, you cook it a little bit. Um, then you put in your rice and, you know, you, depending on how many people you have, you know, cup, cup to two cups, you know, if you're not doing a ton, you know, a cup of rice should probably be enough if it's two, will, will be enough if it's two people. Then you cook that a little bit, get that covered and coated. And then you add, you know, a bit of, of white wine.

• 1:22:25Tim Ferriss?

  Now the stock, is the stock already in there?

• 1:22:28Speaker 03

  The stock's not in there. Stock should be in a separate, separate pot. And it should, you should, it should be hot. You should bring that to a boil and keep that warm.

• 1:22:36Tim Ferriss?

  Got it. Okay, so onions, then you cook that down, let it kinda car- caramelize a little bit?

• 1:22:41Speaker 03

  Uh, no, actually you don't want color on it.

• 1:22:43Tim Ferriss?

  You don't want color, okay. And then you, then you add the rice, then you add, so you have a cup of, of rice, how much white wine would you put in there?

• 1:22:52Speaker 03

  Yeah, I'm not a, and I'm not a great recipe guy. Like you just wanna get a nice, like, couple splashes in there, like.

• 1:22:57Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, no, that's fine.

• 1:22:58Speaker 03

  I don't know, maybe like a, a quarter cup.

• 1:23:00Tim Ferriss?

  Okay.

• 1:23:00Speaker 03

  Um, at the most, and then you, you cook that down. So you want, when you, when you know you're, you wanna get rid of all the alcohol. So you know that, like, when you lean over the pot and you kinda put the, what's evaporating, kinda you, you put your nose over that. If it kinda burns the inside of your nose, you know that there's still alcohol burning off. And like, once that sort of burning sensation comes and it's just like, mm, okay, that smells good, then you know you're, you're ready to go. It should be pretty dry, it should be dry, basically. Um, before you then start adding your stock.

• 1:23:32Tim Ferriss?

  Got it. And then how long, once you add the stock, is the, this sort of cocktail, is it on like a medium heat or what's the heat?

• 1:23:40Speaker 03

  Yeah, so you want it to be a nice simmer, um, uncovered simmer. And you only use a wooden spoon because you don't wanna damage the rice and you only wanna use a boreal rice, really important. Uh, which is a nice starchy rice, so you'll get a good, a nice starchy kind of, uh, broth. And so when you, so yeah, so you, so you just add the, the stock as you go. So you cook it, you know, it'll start absorbing. You realize, okay, I'll need some more, you start absorbing, you keep adding. And now if you run out of stock, you can finish with water, no problem. You know, you want to heat the water up. You don't want to put in a cold liquid into your risotto because that stops all the cooking process and can start breaking down the rice over if you do that too much.

• 1:24:24Tim Ferriss?

  I like this idea. I'm going to try this this weekend because it seems like you could also, for instance, with like scallops, which are so deceptively easy to cook. You can kind of muck around with the risotto and if you're kind of flying by the seat of your pants and half screwing it up, since the scallops only take whatever, you know, four minutes, two minutes to cook, you can kind of do it last minute and just drop them in.

• 1:24:45Speaker 03

  Yeah, so for like, if you're using the bay scallops, the little guys, like basically when your risotto is basically done, or just you put them in, you just give it a stir and you turn it off and like they'll basically cook through, just as it settles. Because you want, you'll want, so at the end, so you cook it, it's getting close. Whenever you're done, so like when it's basically done, then you put in your parmesan, you put in some butter, you put in a little olive oil, and you give that a good stir. You're going to want to let it just rest for a minute and it'll kind of come together. If it dries up, like when you put it on the plate, you want it to just kind of relax onto the plate. Like you don't want to hold up in kind of a ball. You don't want to run either. So you may need to add a little stock to make it, you know, it should feel like it's got a little sauce, but it's not saucy.

• 1:25:28Speaker 03

  Right? And, but then you can literally add whatever you want. Any kind of herbs, any flavor profile that you like. Like if I love basil, asparagus, and, and zucchini, I can add that at the end. Let that basically warm up and you guys have a beautiful risotto. If you're doing scallops, I love like a lemon seafood risotto. So you can add a bunch of lemon juice, a ton of lemon zest, like lots of lemon zest, maybe a squeeze of a lemon, and say shrimp and scallops, and teragon, it's a great herb for that one. Killer risotto. So you can, that one will impress any, any lady, whoever, whoever asks that.

• 1:26:08Tim Ferriss?

  I'm gonna try that this Saturday. A question from Kerry Kaminski. What dish have you most frequently made for house guests?

• 1:26:18Speaker 03

  Wow. Most dish, most frequently made. I don't know the answer to that, to be honest with you. I mean, I love the grill. I'm just a grill freak. It's super simple, less dishes, and biggest flavor. So I throw, like, when it's warm, I throw everything on the grill. I grill all the vegetables. Like, we grill eggplant, we grill, like, rapini, we grill peppers, zucchini. I just, it just all goes up there. It's a really healthy way to cook, because you're using very little. You don't need much, you know, there's no heavy fats or anything.

• 1:26:53Speaker 03

  And I've been doing pork chops up there, some steak, even pieces of fish, depending on what it is, shrimp. So, I don't know, I just, I just try to keep it fun and simple. I think the, the one thing is, this actually kind of reminds me, I think the one other difference between home cooks and, and pros is just acidity level. Like, when you think it's ready, like, add another lemon.

• 1:27:15Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, totally.

• 1:27:16Speaker 03

  We always, like, pros bump up the acidity level, which is what, it's like, one of the, it's like, one of the secrets. Just we add a little more acid and it makes everything taste better.

• 1:27:25Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, it seems, seems like pros use lemon juices as they might use salt a lot of the time.

• 1:27:32Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:27:33Tim Ferriss?

  What are some of the mistakes that people make with grilling?

• 1:27:38Speaker 03

  Um, what do they make with grilling? One, the grill's not hot, so they end up not getting very good color.

• 1:27:46Speaker 03

  Two, I think that's the, that's the main mistake. I think they also, like, play with food too. Like, when you throw it on there, like, let it go, let it get that nice color, and before you start moving around.

• 1:28:01Speaker 03

  And you know, I think grills are best when you get the sear, but like if you're doing a piece of meat or even a piece of fish, letting it finish in the oven even just for a minute or two, depending on how big your piece of of meat is, is the best way to do it because it'll cook more evenly. A lot of times if you're using a really hot grill, you'll get like a lot of well done and then like a little bit of rare or medium rare in the middle, but like the sides will be super dry and tough. So if you get a really hot grill, get a great sear, you lock the flavor and then you finish in the oven, it's always the best way to do it.

• 1:28:34Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, to to avoid the black and blue steak.

• 1:28:36Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:28:39Tim Ferriss?

  Next question is from Daniel Lohan. What is the best way to systematically develop and refine your palate? And I'll just, I'll modify that and say, what is, what is one simple way to start systematically developing and refining your palate?

• 1:28:56Speaker 03

  Wow, that's an interesting question. I've never, I've never, I've never been asked that. I, I think, I think basically just tasting everything you possibly can. And really tasting, like thinking about it, like breaking down the flavor and just paying attention to it. Smelling things, so smell is a really fundamental part of taste, way more than we realize. So I would, you know, make sure you're really smelling, touching and tasting as much as you possibly can. Eat at restaurants, go to farmer's markets, try things out. And the more you taste, like the more you'll start understanding the subtleties and complexities. Like, I don't know, I don't know of a resource, I mean, that's just the

• 1:29:40Speaker 03

  way I learn, is like cooking and tasting things. And that's the way most chefs learn. I don't know of a resource that's like a guide to palate development. I'm sure there's something out there, but I don't, I don't know of it.

• 1:29:51Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, it's a, it, this was a, this was a question I had to tackle for myself when I was Attempting to learn to cook in the beginning. So I would, I would say to Daniel, a couple of things really helped me. The first was going to restaurants, going to the same restaurant, say five days in a row, and maybe you can't do five days, but going there regularly enough on off days, like Tuesday to Thursday, Monday to Thursday, to get to know the staff. Always keeping the menu with you when you're eating, so you can, you can read along as you eat dishes, so you know what's in it, like the five or six, seven ingredients, whatever it might be.

• 1:30:34Tim Ferriss?

  Smelling your food before you eat it. It looks kinda weird, but it's smelling food before you eat it. Cause I've, I've always had chronic, well, up until I started using, um, kind of sinus rinses, I had chronic sinusitis and I had a lot of trouble smelling.

• 1:30:51Tim Ferriss?

  And then, uh, last thing would be for unfamiliar ingredients that are mixed into a dish. And this is part of the reason that you would go during the week, asking them to give you a little bit on the side, so that you can taste it individually before you eat it in the mix, I found. And there's, there's a fun book called The Flavor Bible also that

• 1:31:10Speaker 03

  Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:31:11Tim Ferriss?

  That is a cool book and a lot of chefs use that to come up with unusual flavor combinations. Next question is from Abe Diaz. Uh, if you had to pack the essence of life into a burrito, what would that burrito be like?

• 1:31:25Speaker 03

  The essence of life into a burrito?

• 1:31:27Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:29Speaker 03

  Uh, meaning like what would the ingredients be?

• 1:31:31Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:32Speaker 03

  The food ingredients?

• 1:31:32Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:34Speaker 03

  Wow. Alright, here we go. Um,

• 1:31:39Speaker 03

  okay, I think I would have, you'd have, um, you know, you'd have some brown rice in there for like fortitude, sustenance for like, you know, your grit, determination.

• 1:31:52Speaker 03

  I would have, um, avocado, lots of avocado for like the richness of life, beauty, color, flavor, like excitement. I would have, um, what would be my protein? I would definitely have beans.

• 1:32:12Speaker 03

  I think beans are like the seed, their growth.

• 1:32:17Speaker 03

  And they harness promise for me, hope, opportunity, optimism. I'd have a little, maybe a little skirt steak for strength and, but not a lot.

• 1:32:33Speaker 03

  And I'd have a habanero salsa for like the spice, the excitement. The, you know, so the being vigorous part of what makes life so amazing. And then maybe I'd let the chef throw in one other mystery ingredient to stimulate curiosity, which I think is the most important or underappreciated quality of people who live great, successful, awesome lives, which is just being curious about the world around them. So I let the chef throw a mystery ingredient in there. How's that?

• 1:33:17Tim Ferriss?

  I love it. It looks like my cheat day on Saturday is going to be risotto and burritos.

• 1:33:24Tim Ferriss?

  If, just two more questions. This is really fun and people can certainly let us know if they want more Sam. I'm sure a lot of people will. The two more questions for you. The first is if you could give your, let's just say, give yourself advice when you were just graduating from UChicago, what advice would that be?

• 1:33:53Speaker 03

  Wow. It's a great question. Well, if I would have given myself advice when I graduated from when I went in, I would have said, study a little harder, you know, work a little harder. But when I left, I mean, I think the advice that I

• 1:34:12Speaker 03

  That I live by, which it kind of holds, which is basically get out there in the world, be open to it, explore it. Be, don't worry about having a clear plan, because I didn't know enough to have a clear plan. And, you know, follow things that I really cared about and go all in when I found something that interests me. Because passion, like, passion's an overstated word. I mean, I think passion develops. So like, I was really into food and was interested in it. And I threw myself into food, but I, it didn't become a passion until I can, you know, really combine, although I was like passionate about it, it wasn't a life passion until I can,

• 1:34:56Speaker 03

  like, combined, you know, food and nourishment with health and sustainability and politics and policy and what we're doing to really help make sure that all people can live healthy, productive, you know, awesome lives through the food that they're eating. Like, that's what sort of became that passion. So I think a lot of people are like, find your passion. I think passion comes from a combination of being open, curious, of really going all in and you find something that you're interested in, then that goes. And I think always just trying to figure out how to do the right thing, you know, trying to remember why you're doing what you're doing, is, are kind of the lessons that I've tried to live by. And they've served well.

• 1:35:37Speaker 03

  You know, getting out in the world gives you a perspective on wherever you are that I found to be transformative and just a foundation of who I am. So it's been, it's been good.

• 1:35:54Tim Ferriss?

  No, I really want to underscore something you said that I think is really important, and that is just related to finding your passion. A lot of people ask me, how can I find my passion? And I think that in their mind, they see this singular thing that is this lightning bolt that knocks them off their feet. And in my case, just like you, it was an unexpected combination of things that came together by trying a lot of things and being, not having, in my case, I didn't have like a five or 10-year plan. It was, I will do the best I can at this next gig, whatever that is, and look for doors that open. And... So I don't want people to think, to feel like, and I've seen people reflect this,

• 1:36:39Tim Ferriss?

  feel like a failure because they haven't had a single activity hit them like a, you know, Cupid Arrow or whatever. What, if you could make one ask of the people listening to this, what would that ask be?

• 1:36:52Speaker 03

  Oh, great question. What would be my one ask? I think my one ask would just be to be engaged. I think, right now, we're suffering from lack of engagement around some of the issues that really matter. And, you know, there's lots of solutions, there's lots of different ways to think about it, particularly in food. I think, you know, there's, you know, there's nothing more important than making sure our kids are getting food. I mean, we have so many hungry kids in the country, we're wasting so much food, we're not getting enough nourishing food. In the face of climate change, there's gonna be, it's gonna be even harder to grow healthy food and produce it at an affordable, at an affordable price for people.

• 1:37:36Speaker 03

  So the challenges are higher, and while we're so, I mean, so engaging and caring and trying to improve the food system through the choices that we're making every day, is a start. And I think for people who really get into it, it's starting to translate that into politics and actually caring about these issues in terms of who's representing us in Washington. And I think that's a, politicians follow the people, and businesses follow the people. Like, they try to, like, shape decisions and they market, et cetera, but in the end, they're following. And so we need to lead, and then we're leading every single day in ways that sometimes we're aware of and sometimes that we're not. And so I think that kind of awareness and engagement can have a profound impact on

• 1:38:19Speaker 03

  what companies are producing and what policies are being made. So I think that's my big ask, at least in my, in my world. But the truth is, that, that kind of same, same principle applies to just about any issue. And I think we just, the more we're engaged, the more our democracy works.

• 1:38:41Tim Ferriss?

  Agreed. Yeah, give a damn, people. Don't be apathetic. Find something to get excited about and care about. Sam, where can people find you on the internet?

• 1:38:54Tim Ferriss?

  Where can people find you on Twitter? I guess you're @chefSamsam?

• 1:38:59Speaker 03

  Yep, yep, @chefSamsam. Instagram is SamCassDC.

• 1:39:06Speaker 03

  Facebook, to be honest with you, I set that up so long ago, I don't even know what my name is. I have to look that up. I gotta get on that, Tim. You're the master of this.

• 1:39:16Tim Ferriss?

  You know, I'm fumbling my way through all of the interwebs one day at a time. Do you have a website where people can also check you out?

• 1:39:24Speaker 03

  No, not yet. That is in the works.

• 1:39:26Tim Ferriss?

  In process.

• 1:39:27Speaker 03

  In process.

• 1:39:28Tim Ferriss?

  I will share that with people when it is ready for its big debut. Sam, well, this is great. I really enjoy hanging out. This was a lot of fun. And for people listening, you can check out the links to resources, books mentioned, etc. in the show notes. And those show notes and the show notes for every other podcast are just at fourhourworkweek.com/podcast. But Sam, thank you so much for the time.

• 1:39:57Speaker 03

  Tim, it's been awesome, man. You're the best and you're helping people live better lives. And it was an honor to be here with you, man.

• 1:40:03Tim Ferriss?

  Thanks, buddy. I'll talk to you soon.

• 1:40:05Speaker 03

  All right. Take care.

• 1:40:11Tim Ferriss?

  This episode is brought to you by 99designs, your one-stop shop for all things graphic design related. I've used 99designs for everything from banner ads to book covers, including sketches and mockups that led to the Four Hour Body, which later became number one New York Times, number one Wall Street Journal. And the brainstorming, a lot of it took place with designers from around the world. And here's how it works. Whether you need a t-shirt, a business card, a website, an app thumbnail, whatever it might be, you submit that project, and designers from around the world will send you sketches and mockups and designs. You choose your favorite, and you have an original that you love. Or you get your money back. It's that straightforward.

• 1:40:53Tim Ferriss?

  And many of you who are listening have already used it and created some amazing things that I'll be sharing in the future. But in the meantime, if you want to see some of my competitions, some of the book covers, as well as get a free $99 upgrade, go to 99designs.com/tim. That's 99designs.com/tim.

• 1:41:13Tim Ferriss?

  This podcast is brought to you by Mizzen and Maine. Don't worry about the spelling. All you need to know is this. I have organized my entire life around avoiding fancy shirts because you have to iron them, you sweat through them, they smell really easily, they're a pain in the ass. Mizzen and Maine has given me the only shirt that I need. And what I mean by that, and Kelly Starrett loves these shirts as well, is that you can trick people. They look really fancy, so you can take them out to nice dinners, whatever, but they're made from athletic sweat-wicking material. So you can throw this thing into your luggage in a heap or on your kitchen table like I did recently, and then pull it out, throw it on with no ironing, no steaming, no nothing,

• 1:41:55Tim Ferriss?

  walk out, and you could probably wear this thing for a week straight, or make it your only dress shirt, and take it on trips for weeks at a time, never wash it, it will not smell, you will not sweat through it. You've got to check these things out. So go to fourhourworkweek.com, all spelled out, fourhourworkweek.com/shirts. Check it out, fourhourworkweek.com/shirts, and you'll see some of my favorite gear, including the one shirt that I've been traveling with. And until next time, thank you for listening.