E156 - Joe Hudson: How to Embrace the Emotions You Resist & Find Lasting Freedom

Executive coach Joe Hudson unpacks the inner mechanics of human behavior, and how we can rewire our lives from the inside out. From learning how to feel our feelings to understanding the “three brains” that shape our experiences, Joe offers powerful frameworks for cultivating clarity, authenticity, and freedom. Joe reveals how triggers become opportunities for healing, why vulnerability is a superpower in leadership, and what it really takes to shift out of ego and into presence. BonCharge Red light therapy: Go to https://BonCharge.com/KnowThyself and use code KNOWTHYSELF to save 15% Try Pique Life tea and save 20% for life & get a free frother: https://www.piquelife.com/KnowThyself Andrés Book Recs: https://www.knowthyselfpodcast.com/book-list ___________ 0:00 Intro 1:30 Subtractive Development: More Results with Less 4:08 Working with the 3 Brains that Dictate Our Lives 7:08 How to Make Real Progress in Life 10:50 Having the Courage to Feel the Feelings 13:20 Raising Kids Who Are Comfortable Expressing Themselves 19:30 Healing Triggers Somatically 24:26 What Emotional Clarity Feels Like 29:03 The Golden Algorithm: Intelligent Design in Our Emotions 38:38 How the Voice in Your Head Runs Your Life 45:49 Ad: Boncharge Redlight Therapy 47:27 Nonduality & Spiritual Growing Pains 53:09 Best Way to Gain Emotional Awareness 59:53 Relating to the Ego in a Healthy Way 1:10:23 Ad: PiqueLife 1:11:24 High Performers Listen to their Intuition 1:13:03 How His Coaching Process Works 1:15:25 What Defensiveness Reveals About Us 1:18:29 People Pleasing: An Instant Reframe 1:22:25 Power of Apologies & Forgiveness 1:29:32 The View Framework 1:33:56 Expressing Real Vulnerability 1:44:07 Qualities of a Powerful Leader 1:56:36 Will AI Change How We Relate to Ourselves? 2:06:15 Analyzing the People & Companies Building AI 2:13:52 Experiment for Implementing This All Into Your Life 2:14:55 Conclusion ___________ Episode Resources: Sign up for a complimentary transformation guide: https://www.artofaccomplishment.com/ Art of Accomplishment Podcast Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/6MjoHFfLmNgo0Msais7IJ2 YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@ArtofAccomplishment https://www.instagram.com/andreduqum/ https://www.instagram.com/knowthyself/ https://www.youtube.com/@knowthyselfpodcast https://www.knowthyselfpodcast.com

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Football has a play for just about everything. You can go deep, keep it on the ground, or draw up something nobody sees coming. And whether you want to run a flea flicker or the tush push, you need a plan to fit your unique situation. That's why State Farm takes the time to get to know you so they can help personalize coverage for your life and budget. Now that's a solid game plan. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.

• 0:30Speaker 01

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• 0:58Speaker 02

  If I ask you right now to do an experiment, try to stop feeling every emotion that you're having, some muscles, if not all of your muscles, had to constrict. And if you did that for an extended period of time, we would call that stress. The avoidance of emotion drives a huge amount of our behavior. How many choices did you make not to feel like a failure? How many choices did you make to chase happiness? How many choices did you make to avoid discomfort? The emotions that we don't want to feel, we invite in the exact way we're trying not to feel them. But that's actually a really intelligent design because then it keeps on giving us a chance to see ourselves as whole again. We have three brains. And if you want transformation in your life, you need to address all three. And so what that means on a practical level is something to the effect of there's a lot of ways to work with the voice in the head.

• 1:44Speaker 02

  There is a time and a place as you do the work where the repetitive negative self-talk goes away. Yet, when we have it, we say, "Oh, we need that to be productive." Like, I would just sit on the couch and drink beer if it wasn't for that internal abuse. But it frees up so much energy not to have it.

• 2:05André Duqum?

  Hey, everyone. Welcome back to Know Thyself. Our guest today is a renowned business executive coach and facilitator of people returning into wholeness within themselves, applying neuroscience and philosophy and incredible practices that I'm looking forward to diving and exploring with the man, the myth, the legend himself, Joe Hudson.

• 2:24Speaker 02

  Good to be here.

• 2:25André Duqum?

  Thanks for being here.

• 2:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, pleasure.

• 2:27André Duqum?

  Pleasure to have you. I want to start with a couple of frameworks that I've heard you speak to that I think will set the stage for our conversation today.

• 2:34Speaker 02

  Cool.

• 2:35André Duqum?

  Subtractive development and this idea that so much of the illusion of like growing in life is the accumulation of more and more and more ideas, more material things. So I would love for you to speak to this positioning, this kind of internal orientation of development and growth actually coming from subtracting.

• 2:59Speaker 02

  I've never put in those terms before, but I appreciate them. What I would say is that there is a, you know, there's a Zen tradition that says if a hand is always like this, or if a hand is always like this, both are cripple. And what I see in our society is there's a lot of this, which is what do I do? How do I get there? What's the next step for me to take? But there's not a lot of receiving. And so to me, there's places where trying is really useful, and there's places where trying is really not useful. And so it's really learning how to be able to do both. So what I notice is typically

• 3:39Speaker 02

  if I say subtracting is a great thing, then people will say, oh, so adding is a bad thing. And if you look at like spiritual traditions, they do that all the time, where it's like there's a good way, and then all of a sudden, there has to be a bad way. And for me, it's just about the flexibility and knowing when to use and what to use to get to.

• 4:03Speaker 02

  Get to a place of knowing that there's no place to get to. That's what I'd say.

• 4:08André Duqum?

  Yeah, the way you just verbalized that makes me feel like the subtractive kind of mentality around this is if we are internally whole and we can experience a self beyond the identification with our neuroses and thoughts and emotions, then we're in a way, in a lot of these endeavors and a lot of the practices and retreats and things that you lead are helping people return back to what is their innate state. Would you agree with that? Or is it more of a rebuilding?

• 4:35Speaker 02

  That's a great one. Yeah, for years, that's the way I looked at it was it was like a remembering or a or a getting back to. And now I would say it's neither because my experience is that it is always there in everybody. So there's not even a returning to. There's just a recognition of. And I think like even the returning to is a little bit more force than is efficient.

• 5:06André Duqum?

  What's like the elevator pitch for the deeper retreat work that you do and your one-on-one coaching previously?

• 5:15André Duqum?

  How would you explain that to somebody of like your framework of working with people?

• 5:21André Duqum?

  Which I know is a big question.

• 5:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, I have a lot of frameworks because people are in different places. So to me, the really important thing is to follow the person that I'm across from. So that's where the wisdom is. The wisdom is in here. The wisdom is in them. And even if I have been down the path myself and with hundreds, thousands now of other people, there's no place, there's no way that I know their next best step better than they know their best step. So I would describe it differently to different people depending on where they are in the path. But so I have different frameworks that I would describe for people. But the one that is most general is we have three brains, basically. I mean, we have one brain, but we have three brains and one is the human prefrontal cortex.

• 6:06Speaker 02

  Thought, that's one part of our brain. We'll call that the intellect. And then we have the heart, which is the mammalian emotional.

• 6:15Speaker 02

  Part of the brain, and then we have the nervous system, which is far more of like the reptilian brain. We call that the gut. So we have those three brains. And if you want transformation in your life, you need to address all three to get it consistently. And so what that means on a practical level is something to the effect of, we've all been in that position where we've said, oh, you know, I know that I shouldn't eat that, but I'm eating that. Which means you've intellectually got it, but your, your heart and your nervous system haven't gotten it. Or I know that I shouldn't treat my friends like that, but I'm still treating my friends like that. Which means your head's got it and your heart and your gut doesn't have it. And so if you're going to really have transformation, it needs to be addressed on all, in all three areas.

• 7:00Speaker 02

  And if that happens, then the change is just really natural. And the brain is very much the part of it that is, how do I get it? How do I add? How do I understand more? But the heart is far more, and the gut and the, the gut is, and nervous system is far more about receiving. And so since our, we're very head oriented society generally, that oftentimes the receiving stuff and the heart and the gut work and the nervous system work is going to be more transformative more quickly. But none of them are bad and they're all necessary. I don't want to make the duality out of it.

• 7:34André Duqum?

  For sure. Yeah, but there, there tends to be this over identification with the mind, especially more Western. And I'm curious, because a lot of people relate to knowledge based off of the education system that we were raised in often, that conflate regurgitating information as knowing something versus the somatic experience of integrating it in your body and that actually being knowing.

• 7:56Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 7:56André Duqum?

  And it's like the difference of what somebody says they believe versus what they act in accordance to their values. That's, that's actually more what they actually believe because they're living in accordance with that, right? So where do you think we go wrong in conflating knowledge and wisdom? Knowledge that lives in the body that we live as versus the ones that we can, you know, information we can regurgitate?

• 8:17Speaker 02

  As a society or as a person?

• 8:19André Duqum?

  Both.

• 8:19Speaker 02

  Yeah. As a society, I think it's be, our education system is really based on the idea that if you get an idea, that your life is going to change. So even most. Most spirituality, there's maybe one or two practices, but there's a lot of talking. You know, and so it's like meditation, great practice. Love it. Did it for decades. Still do it. Wonderful. And that's one experiment you can try. There's infinitely other, more experiments you can try. And so a lot of the way that it's been passed down is through talking, through intellect. And then hopefully there's a transmission of where the state in which the person is

• 9:02Speaker 02

  speaking from has an effect as well. But if you teach experientially instead of teach intellectually, I think that as a modality works a lot better. So like, if you look at any of our courses, there's podcasts in which I'm talking. And then there is all the hours and hours of experiential learning where you're running experiments with other people. So instead of saying wonder is this thing that really helps you see through your fear. Let's, this is a great way to experience wonder. Let's do that and see what happens to your fear. Let's actually do the thing instead of talk about it. And the reason that I ran into that is because I had massive authority issues as a kid.

• 9:47Speaker 02

  Like Matt, I had an alcoholic father, so it was like the authority shouldn't be trusted. So when I dug into all the things I was interested around spirituality or neuroscience, or there was a neuroscience back then, but psychology and philosophy. I just was like, I can't trust that. So I started designing experiments so that I could see if it was real or not real for me. And, and so to me, that was the why it was so, why I was able to like make the progress that I was able to make was that just dumb luck of, I'm going to try that on. How do I, how do I see if that's actually true? How do I do that in my life to see if it works? And so that's the way that I teach it too.

• 10:29Speaker 02

  And so I think on a societal level, I think that's generally where we go wrong. On, on a personal level, I think what happens is, oh, if I actually have to feel the thing that I just saw, then I'm going to open up this massive bundle of stuff that I don't know. That's a Pandora's box. We're just going to put that aside. And the way that the brain fools us, the mind fools us about emotions is we think, if I really let myself get sad, I'm gonna be sad forever. If I really let myself be scared, I'm gonna be incapable. If I really let myself get angry, then I'm gonna destroy the things I love. And what happens is actually not that. You really let yourself get sad, you feel better. I had a good cry, I felt great, right?

• 11:12Speaker 02

  Or if you really allow yourself to have, feel fear, you become much more capable because you're not constantly trying to not feel fear, not feel anxiety. And anger, if you don't do it at somebody, if you're not hurting somebody, you're trying to control somebody with your anger, the same thing happens. You feel far more, you're like, we don't get angry at anything that we don't care about deeply. And so all you're doing is clarifying your love by moving your anger.

• 11:39André Duqum?

  Yeah, it's interesting how our continual resistance to those unwanted emotions perpetuate them for lifetimes in many cases, you know? And like, I love how you speak directly to this and the sort of golden algorithm. And so I would like to just unpack this a bit more because it makes so much sense when articulated in the way that you're saying to it. And yes, so many of us find in our lives that there are these subtle anxieties, fears, resistance to an internal dialogue or emotion. We let that fear be like a dull pain of unconsciousness permeate throughout life. And so how do we directly break through that?

• 12:21Speaker 02

  There's so many ways, but like a great perspective shift is imagine, so whether I say, I don't want to feel scared, I want to heal my anxiety, I want to get through my anxiety, all that is a rejection of the anxiety. So instead of that narrative, which is a very forceful pushing narrative, like what is the receptive narrative, so to speak? And so if you think about each of these parts of yourself as just aspects of yourself that weren't loved or that are looking for love or that's a much, oh, that anxiety, that's like, that's a call for love.

• 13:04Speaker 02

  How do I, how do I love that anxiety? Even, there might be stages, I might have to get pissed, I might have to do a whole bunch of other things, I might need to draw a boundary, but what's actually required for me to love that anxiety is that completely changes. When my daughter was three or four years old, she was scared of monsters under her bed. And there's like a week or so of her being scared. And one day I walked in, I said, "Do you know what monsters really want?" And she's like, "What?" I was like, "They really want hugs." They're like really looking for hugs.

• 13:47Speaker 02

  And that was the last day that she complained about monsters under her bed. And that's basically what I do for a living now.

• 13:57André Duqum?

  That's so good.

• 13:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 14:00André Duqum?

  Those, those internal, what we perceive as monsters

• 14:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 14:05André Duqum?

  that just need a hug.

• 14:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 14:06André Duqum?

  That just want attention and to be attended to.

• 14:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, they didn't get attended to as kids typically. And so they're just, they're like, just keep on throwing a fit till we love them.

• 14:18André Duqum?

  Would you say that the vast majority of the suppressed emotions were consciously or subconsciously experiencing life are derived from that zero to eight age range and the theta brain development?

• 14:29Speaker 02

  Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, especially on the emotional level. Yeah, that's why I'm like such a proponent. So when we were raising our kids, my wife, she, she, she was like, "Let's do this." And I was like, "No." And she's like, "No." And we would have these things about how to raise kids, like right from like the early, but like even how we were gonna birth, I was like, "No." And she'd be like, and she knew my brain. She was like, "Okay, I'll get the data, I'll, I'll show you." And she did, and, but I was resistant. And somewhere around, when our oldest was two years old, I was just like, "Okay, I'm just doing whatever you say." And so I, I said, "You're better at this than I am.

• 15:13Speaker 02

  I'm going to do whatever you tell me to do with the kid. I'm gonna do, I'm gonna give it my best. And then after three months, if it doesn't feel good, I'm gonna say something, but I'm gonna..." Give that first three months. And one of the things she came with was this thing called hand in hand parenting, which was really allowing your children to have their full emotional expression. Still draw gentle boundaries with them, but have that full emotional expression. And I recommend it highly. And it is definitely one of the most profound spiritual practices of my life was raising my children in that methodology. And it's also a huge part of why my girls right now are so amazing is because they were told that every aspect of you is okay.

• 15:58Speaker 02

  And so there was almost, there was almost no punishment, very little shame. And if there was ever those things, there was, there was just immediate, I'm sorry, that's not how I want to treat you. And they came out wonderful because they just never learnt. Well, I'm sure we weren't perfect. I can tell you lots of ways we weren't perfect, but, but they basically didn't learn that some, that they weren't okay. Cause when you're telling a kid, stop getting angry, you're saying, you're not okay. Like that part of you is not okay. Don't be scared. That part of you, don't get so excited. That part of you is not okay. And it's zero to eight years old. That's all you are. The intellect doesn't even like compute your sense of self isn't even online yet. So you're just being told you're not okay. You're not okay. You're not okay.

• 16:43Speaker 02

  And so you end up as an adult going, I feel like I need to prove my value. I need to, I don't feel like I'm okay. There's this thing that I, if I, whenever I go there, it's like an abyss. I'm going to fall through. All that stuff comes, I think, directly from that experience.

• 16:57André Duqum?

  How did you navigate allowing that fullness of experience, but also like having boundaries within society and like, I guess other people's experience if you're going out or like, I'm just curious.

• 17:09Speaker 02

  I got a couple of good stories about that one. To give some context, right now, if we're, if I'm in an airplane and a kid starts crying, a baby starts crying, I can stand up, look back in the airplane, and I can tell you exactly who wasn't allowed to cry as a kid. And so, and so the question is, how did I do that? I had to learn how to have my full emotional experience because. If their temper tantrum was triggering me, it was because I couldn't allow that in myself. If their fear was triggering me is because I couldn't allow that in myself. So as I learned how to allow it for them, I had to learn how to allow it for myself. So there was a great, the great softening of parenting and I just softened through that, that period.

• 17:52Speaker 02

  And so that's, that's how it worked. But there were some awkward moments, you know, there was a

• 17:58André Duqum?

  I imagine, yeah.

• 17:58Speaker 02

  There was a Whole Foods experience with my eldest where she wanted something off the shelf. And I was like, yeah, we're not going to have that thing on the shelf. And she just starts throwing a fit and I'm making sure she doesn't destroy anything, but I'm like container. We're on the floor of Whole Foods and she's just like going and we lived in a town that is, was more hippie then, a little less hippie now. And this old hippie lady went, are you okay? And definitely like not happy with me parenting and just like was judgmental. And she, my daughter was maybe like three years old and she's like, I'm just having my emotions. And then she went right back into it. It was like this, like she popped out of it for just a second to let her know and then went back in it.

• 18:41Speaker 02

  And so, so it just was a, the great softening of what it was for me. It was just constantly seen. If I allow my daughter, now both daughters, to connect with themselves and to connect with their emotional experience and like move through whatever that is, they just come back to being sweethearts. And I find the exact same thing with adults.

• 19:05André Duqum?

  Yeah, it's, it changes how we look at adults too. Cause you share that, the story of like the, in the airplane of looking around and seeing who's, who has difficult accepting their own range of emotions. And like zooming in on the individual for all of us, introspectively, seeing what we judge and are getting triggered by externally is revealing in many ways where we're not okay with various emotions. And so

• 19:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 19:31André Duqum?

  That's a, that's just like a really important highlight too of what you said and, and something to dive deeper into about how we can continue to reveal where we're still stuck.

• 19:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, absolutely. Every, every place that we're triggered to me is. There's a couple. There's so many ways to reveal it. That's a great one. But yeah, any place that I is if I'm triggered by or judging somebody else, there's a direct experience of an emotion you're not allowing that you're not okay with. So there's no way I can judge you without clamping down an emotion in my own system. And so, and if I feel that thing, the judgment goes away. So if you like a great, just an experiment to run is every time you judge somebody for a week, stop in the middle of and say, what am I trying not to feel right now? And feel it and notice what happens to your judgment.

• 20:23Speaker 02

  Like that would be, don't like, I can say it. It means nothing.

• 20:27André Duqum?

  Right.

• 20:27Speaker 02

  Go do that for a week and it means everything.

• 20:30André Duqum?

  How much of the dissolving of that is the continual awareness of when it happens? Like in terms of, let's say, zero is complete unconscious of triggers, 100% is no longer being triggered by these things.

• 20:45André Duqum?

  Does like, how much of being aware and the awareness of that trigger dissolves it? And, and what else do you think is needed to actually resolve it?

• 20:55Speaker 02

  You're limiting awareness there. So if I don't limit awareness, I'll say, that's all that's necessary for almost any kind of internal transformation is just your awareness.

• 21:07Speaker 02

  A pure awareness.

• 21:08André Duqum?

  Yeah. Maybe more I was referring to as conscious attention versus the totality of awareness. But I hear what you mean.

• 21:15Speaker 02

  No, I, yeah, consciously, like if I'm consciously attending to something without a story, that'll pretty much take care of all of it eventually. Yeah. As soon as I add the story, then everything gets slowed down. Right? Because if I'm consciously attending to like my judgment, I'm going to notice my body's constricting. I'm going to notice that there's an emotion. If I un-constrict my body, I'm going to feel an emotional state. So I think that, yeah, it's just when the attention has a drive or the attention has something that's trying to get to or some story that is involved, that it becomes less effective. It still can be very effective.

• 21:54André Duqum?

  Yeah. I guess I'm interested in how the awareness drives deeper into the somatic experience with these avoidance cycles. As you gain awareness, how does one go deeper? And maybe you have an example of this, but like going deeper into the somatic experience of feeling those feelings and making space for that on an internal level, what does that look like?

• 22:17Speaker 00

  This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Football has a play for just about everything. You can go deep, keep it on the ground, or draw up something nobody sees coming. And whether you want to run a flea flicker or the tush push, you need a plan to fit your unique situation. That's why State Farm takes the time to get to know you so they can help personalize coverage for your life and budget. Now that's a solid game plan. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.

• 22:46Speaker 04

  Low energy, unfocused, foggy? You might be dehydrated. Gatorade Zero powders have been scientifically designed to help improve hydration balance in the body. With a clinically proven electrolyte blend and no artificial colors or flavors, great tasting hydration, no matter where you're going. Shop now online or at retailers nationwide. Gatorade hydrates better than water. Is it in you? Symptoms noted are signs of mild to moderate dehydration. Consult a healthcare professional if symptoms persist.

• 23:18Speaker 02

  So, so best way to think about it is this. If I ask you right now to do an experiment, try to stop feeling every emotion that you're having.

• 23:29Speaker 02

  Some muscles, if not all of your muscles, had to constrict to do that. And if you did that for an extended period of time, we would call that stress. We would call that tension. Right? So it's just the opposite of that.

• 23:42André Duqum?

  Full allowance.

• 23:44Speaker 02

  And everything that comes with it. So if you've somatically felt what happened to your body, or if you're listening to this and you like pause and like try to stop all emotional experience, you'll feel the direction that you go. It'll be like a tightening and a backing away kind of thing. And then if the the exact opposite of that experience is emotionally allowing. And so there's a fluidity that comes with it. There's, there's like a, you're less clawing into trying to have an experience. There's less chasing states. There's smoother decision making. There's a whole bunch of things that go along with that because the avoidance of emotion, it drives a huge amount of our behavior.

• 24:27Speaker 02

  Like if you think about how many emotion, how many, how many choices did you make not to feel like a failure? How many choices did you make to feel like to be loved? How many choices did you make to chase happiness? How many choices did you make to avoid discomfort? How many times are you like getting on YouTube to avoid discomfort? Like millions of choices are made as an avoidance of an emotion.

• 24:50André Duqum?

  It seems like you're also describing a great opportunity and how to live our life and how we view these triggers because we could live life unconsciously and continually calcifying these triggers further and further. Or using the experience of when they arise to be just another opportunity to experience more freedom in our life.

• 25:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, that's the thing. It's like, so, so one of the pitfalls that happens here is that people say, okay, Joe, I can love all my emotions and that like if I love my fear, then I'll get rid of my fear. It's like, yeah, but if you're trying to get rid of your fear, you're not loving your fear. So it's not going to work. Right? So there's this thing that happens where, yes, if you actually fully love and accept the thing, it changes and it becomes very fluid and and this you find pleasure and joy and so much stuff. I have a, I have a phrase. It's a joy is the matriarch of a family of emotions and she won't come into a house where her children aren't welcome. And so there's just so much joy with it. But at the same time, if you're using it to chase joy, if you're using it to get over it,

• 26:00Speaker 02

  then you're not actually loving the thing. It's just another way in which you're resisting it.

• 26:06André Duqum?

  You mentioned a couple of things. One, like all the things that come as a byproduct naturally of allowing these, like the experience of these. And then the returning to the state of joy as like all, everything else is welcome at the dinner table, so to speak.

• 26:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 26:23André Duqum?

  What do you see as the most distinct changes? And what like happens in our surroundings and how we make decisions when we move with emotional fluidity?

• 26:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 26:32André Duqum?

  In relationships and business?

• 26:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, there's just so many of the most important ones. Let me just go through the ones that I can think about because there's so many of them. So your decision making gets clarified. Oftentimes, if we're stuck in a decision, that's actually fear that's stagnant. And we're just basically saying, I don't want to feel this way and I don't want to feel this way. And I can't make sure that I don't feel either of these ways, so I'm indecisive. Or your decision making clarifies because in the, the decisions actually get made in the emotional center of the brain. Meaning if I took the emotional center of your brain out, your IQ would stay the same, but it would take you like hours to decide like where to have lunch or a long time to decide what color pen to use.

• 27:14Speaker 02

  And so, so the clarity of decision making is a tremendous thing that happens. The authenticity is, becomes a natural expression, meaning most of the time we're not authentic. It's because we don't want to feel something, right? If you, if I said to you, hey, take your biggest fear. Let's assume for a second, your biggest fear is to be homeless. Like, okay, you're going to be homeless. You're like, I don't want to be homeless. Okay, now imagine you're homeless and you're happier than you've ever been. And you're more at peace than you've ever been. And there's, there's just like so much love and joy in your life. It's something that you, so much you couldn't even recognize it today. All of a sudden, being homeless isn't so scary anymore. And so.

• 27:57Speaker 02

  That's the, that's the, so it clarifies your decision making because we make it as emotional decisions. We're just using logic to try to figure out how we're going to feel. But if you're not scared of feeling a certain way, then decision making becomes really clear. Relationships become far smoother because most of the time, if I'm in a fight with you in a relationship, it's because I don't want to feel shame, or I don't want to feel like a bad person, or I don't want to feel out of control, or I don't want to feel helpless. But if I'm cool with doing those things and I can accept you, I don't need to change you for, for who, you know, change you to be something else. I might not want to be with you. Like I might, you know, this isn't my kind of relationship and I'm, I would definitely be drawing boundaries, but I'm not, I'm not trying to change you. I'm not trying to make

• 28:40Speaker 02

  you into something different, which is really great for relationships. Those are some like basic examples. Business is just amazing. When you see a leader lean into a decision, an emotion that they haven't been able to lean into before, like a whole solution set opens up to them that they couldn't see before because if they, if they saw it, they might have to feel some way. So they won't do it.

• 29:04André Duqum?

  It makes sense that there's probably not a single area of life that this would affect. It's like a, a kink in a hose where the flow is just not, it's not allowed at its full capacity. And you speak to the distinction of dirty energy versus clean energy. And I'm just like, what is the energetic state in your mental vitality and physical vibrance? Like, what do you feel like comes as a, when, when there isn't as many kinks in the hose in, in terms of your own experience?

• 29:32Speaker 02

  Yeah. So everyone is a little bit, like every emotion is a little bit different. So if I, if you take the emotional, let's say conduit, call it anger, right? And you can't get this way, it's nice jewelry. If you can't get another way, it's.

• 29:51Speaker 02

  No, I'm not angry. If you can't get it another way, it's you, son of a ba ba ba ba ba ba ba. Unkinked, it's kind of like Gandhi or Martin Luther King. It's, it's, it's clear boundaries. It's no, I'm not going to accept this, but I'm not going to close my heart either. It's, I'm going to allow all that care. I'm also going to have the full boundary. And so, so that's anger, but it's the same with fear. You can't get one way, it's anxiety. You can't get it another way, it's like over excitement. There's a whole, so the way that it gets kinked is, is different for, and therefore has different results. But generally, anger, when felt fully, is clarity and determination.

• 30:36Speaker 02

  And fear, when, when felt fully, is like a aliveness or excitement, exuberance for life. And sadness is like a, a, a deep love. Like, you know, it's, you, we even feel that sometimes when we're sad. We're like, am I crying because I'm sad or am I crying because I'm so in love? It's like, ah.

• 30:58André Duqum?

  Yeah.

• 30:58Speaker 02

  And so it's a, you can, that's, those are the.

• 31:01André Duqum?

  It's so ironic and paradoxical how, because I've experienced this too, like after a big heartbreak, where there's immense sadness, but in the fullness of experiencing it, there's actually bliss in a weird way.

• 31:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 31:14André Duqum?

  And the way you're speaking to this feels like it's kind of rewiring how we think about emotions completely. Because I feel like many of us, and me in my past, have thought of like emotions as like a, like from zero to 100, like grief, fear, sadness, all that stuff's at the bottom. And like the goal is to transcend higher, higher, higher into love and bliss and, and joy and all of that.

• 31:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, Force Overpower, that book.

• 31:35André Duqum?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Totally. David Hawkins.

• 31:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 31:38André Duqum?

  Uh, but you're speaking to like each sort of emotional experience on a bandwidth, where we can come into right relationship and they all serve a purpose. And.

• 31:49André Duqum?

  Like the example of Gandhi, like the what would have used to be perceived as negative emotions actually in right relationship are used in service to something. So that's, that's a big rewiring.

• 32:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, and they're also just amazing signals too, like, oh, I'm fucking frustrated that, oh, there's a boundary I'm not drawing. What's the boundary I need to draw? There's my truth that I'm not saying. What's the truth that I'm not saying? Like, they're, they're amazing signals. Each one of what we call negative emotions are just like an amazing signal. And when we don't resist them, they, there's one way to look at it. Like, if we don't resist a certain emotion, it becomes a different emotion. I find that less effective of a story than if I fully love and allow for an emotion, then the emotion transforms, but they're the same emotion. I find that story just is more useful.

• 32:39André Duqum?

  Yeah, it feels like in the appreciation of how all these emotions serve a purpose, like, the resistance to them would drop immensely.

• 32:46Speaker 02

  Immensely. And that's how you actually get to the place where I'm not loving the fear to get rid of the fear. I actually really like this fear, like, oh, it's telling me something. I need that signal.

• 32:58Speaker 02

  You know, you'll hang out with people, like, often in sessions when I'm coaching somebody, I'll say, okay, if I could push this button, I'll take away all that anxiety. Do you want to go on there? Like, no. Okay, what is that? What is that thing that you, what is the gift of the anxiety that you're, that you see, that you know, that there's something inherent in you that knows that you want that? What is that thing? And then if you can get in touch with that, then the anxiety can be welcomed.

• 33:23André Duqum?

  Do you feel like there's an incredible intelligent design in how all of these emotions work? Like, when somebody has an experience, just any, pick any emotion, de jour.

• 33:37André Duqum?

  Whatever, if we have a certain amount of grief attached to a prior event, like, I think we just spoke to it, but in the appreciation of how that, there's actually an intelligent design there, that protector part, or whatever it might be, serves a purpose. And I know as you've worked with thousands of people at this point, I'm sure you've, through pattern recognition, seen how there is like an intelligent design throughout all this.

• 34:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, so this goes back to the golden algorithm. So if I tell that full story, it's something to the effect of.

• 34:09Speaker 02

  The emotions that we don't want to feel, we invite in the exact way we're trying not to feel them. That's the first part of the story, and I'll go into that in a second. The second part of the story is if there's an emotion we don't want to feel, we keep on recreating experiences to feel that emotion so that we can heal. And once we fully welcome and invite that emotional experience, then we don't recreate the pattern. So all those patterns in your life are created in that avoidance as a way to keep on bringing them up so that you can feel them. So that's how I put it together. So let's do one at a time. I was in my twenties. I was emotionally abandoned by the alcoholic dad and the Al-Anon mom.

• 34:54Speaker 02

  So I didn't want to feel that abandonment. So I would have girlfriend or friend after girlfriend or friend where they would just keep on abandoning me. I would, if I didn't attract it, I could create it. You know, and, and so what was I doing? I don't want to feel abandoned. Therefore, if I start to feel abandoned, I'm going to either do one of two things. For me, I did one of two things. One is fine, which of course makes you want to abandon me. Or the other one is I get needy, which of course makes you want to abandon me. Self fulfilling prophecies. Exactly. So every time we're, we're trying not to feel an emotion, the way we avoid it, the way we try not to feel, we are inviting the experience back into ourselves.

• 35:38Speaker 02

  And so that's, that's the golden algorithm. But, but that's actually a really intelligent design because then it keeps on giving us a chance to feel the emotion, to love the emotion, to love that part of ourselves, to become, to see ourselves as, as whole again. And so, great, I had to, for whatever it took for me, it took hundreds of times being abandoned by different people until I could say, oh, I can feel this abandonment. I couldn't as a kid because it would have been destroyed me. Like, oh, I do not have parents who care for me. What the, what the hell? What am I, what am I going to do? I couldn't do that as a kid, but I can do it as an adult. And so all of a sudden I can say, oh, that abandonment, that.

• 36:20Speaker 02

  That monster, I can just hug that monster. I can love that thing that never got loved as a kid. I can love it now. And then when I did, oh, I can't wait to feel abandoned again. You want to spend time with me, abandonment? Anytime. Come on, let's do this thing. All of a sudden, I didn't have to repeat the pattern.

• 36:41André Duqum?

  I feel like so many of us have the thought that like, through the lens of victimhood, we're at fault for a lot of the things that have happened. And you're shifting in how you're explaining this into responsibility. Like, it's not your fault. However, all the things happen. But whatever patterns are playing out in our external life that we keep seeing, that we don't have the reason, we don't consciously understand quite why they keep showing up. You're inviting, oh, it is a self fulfilling prophecy in a way. It's like, it's revealing something to you in the external world of your internal state being.

• 37:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's absolutely right. And there's this saying that at the beginning of the path, you think other people are responsible. In the middle of the path, you think you're responsible. At the end of the path, there's no responsibility. And the way that the Tibetans talk about the same thing is, and this is where it gets really challenging to, words get challenging here. But they say, mind is wide as the sky and flower as fine, or action is fine as barley flour. So what I think they're meaning there is that I can see the brilliance, truth in every perspective. But there's only one action I can take.

• 37:59Speaker 02

  And when you see the world that way, which is like, this is my truth in this moment. This is all I can do. This is what I'm called to do. And I can see the right and wrong of every perspective, then there's no responsibility. There's a responsibility, like, I'm going to do the thing that I'm called to do because I can't do otherwise, because I know it's going to hurt if I do otherwise. But there's not responsibility, like, I have to be a certain way. I have to, I have to take ownership to get to the place to, that all goes away. There's just flow.

• 38:30André Duqum?

  It makes me think about how our past conditioning is always coloring our perception through life in ways we're not privy to fully.

• 38:38Speaker 02

  And Never will be.

• 38:40André Duqum?

  Yeah, it's such a pain in the ass, but also perfectly designed, right?

• 38:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 38:44André Duqum?

  For our own evolution.

• 38:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, totally is.

• 38:46André Duqum?

  And it gets fun when you realize that because then it's like, okay, another thing, another opportunity for growth.

• 38:52Speaker 02

  And a non-personalness to it. Like I'm not responsible for the whole thing. And that's the interesting thing, right? So there's a stage in the path. This is also kind of what's cool about the design. There's a stage in the path where it's really important to feel like I'm responsible. I have a choice. I can, I have agency. That's a really important thing to feel and to know. Because without that agency, there's just certain things you're not going to do. And then there's a time where letting that go, where you say, oh, I can't even control my own thoughts. Like whatever, most humans have 50,000 thoughts a day, according to the Mayo Clinic. And none of them chose what those thoughts were going to be. They weren't just like, I'm gonna, that, this is all my thoughts today.

• 39:38Speaker 02

  But like, that didn't happen. And so I'm not even, I can't even control my thoughts, let alone the actions that move from my thoughts. It's all a gift. How could I be responsible if I can't even control my own thing? I can't even stop thinking for fucking 10 minutes. Excuse my language.

• 39:52Speaker 02

  You know, and so, so then you can say, oh, there's a gift. And in that gift, in the non-responsibility, there's a relaxation. And there's a receiving and an acceptance. And both of those two stages are really important. So it's not one's better than the other. It's just like where that person is at that moment, what's the realization they need for their next step?

• 40:14André Duqum?

  Yeah. Yeah, that shift, I think, helps us drop us taking our life so personally. Like when you do sit quietly and you see this continual flow of thoughts that are happening unbeknownst to you, it's like, okay, it makes, it brings into questions around agency and free will and whatnot, which is maybe a topic for another time. But I do want to speak to this voice in the head.

• 40:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 40:37André Duqum?

  Because it's running the show in so many different ways we're not aware to. And we live in this matrix of mind. We're largely 95 plus percent essentially the same thoughts throughout our life in different textures, but rooted in the same kind of quality. So how do you relate to working with and relating to the voice in the head?

• 40:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's a large part of our work, especially the in-person stuff. So there's lots of things to, the first one is that most humans listen to the, their negative self, their negative repetitive self-talk. I'm going to call voice in the head. There's going to be thoughts that occur, but there is a time and a place in the, like, as you do the work where the repetitive negative self-talk goes away. And maybe it's in chunks, but, but it does, it can and does go away. And, and so that constant internal negative

• 41:38Speaker 02

  self-talk is always lying. There's a, maybe a more exact way to say it. I think the more effective way to say it is it's always lying. But the more effective, the more exact way to say it is that it's never perfectly true, meaning there's a lie to everything that it says. And it's also horribly ineffective, meaning if you, if there's 50,000 thoughts and let's say 40,000 of them are repetitive negative self-talk, now imagine externalizing that. You're doing your life and you have a boss and your boss is just sitting there. You fucked that up. That wasn't good. This isn't good. Why did you do this? Da, da, da,

• 42:18Speaker 02

  whatever the editing that's going on. You would be a horrible employee, yet when, when we have it, we say, oh, we need that to be productive. We need that to be, to like, I would just sit on the couch and drink beer if it wasn't for that internal abuse. But it's incredibly, it frees up so much energy not to have it. However, just like any other aspect of yourself, if you hate it, resist it, try to push it away. If anything gets more profound, more stronger, it doesn't, it doesn't go away. And so there's a lot of ways to work with the voice in the head. One of the most, I think, at some point, I think, I think I had collected about 15 effective

• 43:03Speaker 02

  tools for working with the voice in the head. But one of my favorites is not to try to stop it, but to change the way you react to it. So typically what happens is, most people listen to that negative self-talk the way that you would, a devotee to a politician would do. Politician's like, wow, they're bad and they're bad and this is good. And they're like, yeah. Totally captivated. Totally got it, we're gonna do, yeah, uh huh. Similarly, that's how most people are with the voice in their head. The voice in the head is like, you're bad. And they're like, oh. It's like a dictator inside of you that won't shut up. Yeah, that you, that you totally believe, as it turns out. And so that's one way to react to it. Some people react to the negative self-talk first in belief and then in resistance, which is, you should lose weight.

• 43:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, I should lose weight. Okay, I'm gonna. Who's saying that, by the way? Yeah, that's another. And so, but then it's like, hey, like, I'm gonna become passive aggressive with the voice in my head. I'm gonna just, you can't make me. So there's, those are kind of the experiences that people have with this self-talk. You could have a totally different experience. Every time it talks to you, you could break out in musicals. You could, every time it talks to you, you could say, I love you. You could go, you could say, shut up. Like, there's a thousand responses that you could have. Like undermine it initially. You could undermine it. Be playful with it. You could actually try to support it. You could, you could, there's a thousand.

• 44:32Speaker 02

  Start experimenting with those gives a tremendous amount of insight into what the voice in the head is actually up to. So instead of saying, okay, I'm gonna do all these things to undermine or get rid of it, it's just like, just experiment, just play. Okay, today I'm gonna laugh every time you talk and tomorrow I'm gonna say, I see how scared you are, I'm right here with you. And then the next time you just say, no, like play and then see what you learn about yourself and this negative self-talk. That's an incredibly effective way to work with the voice in the head.

• 45:07André Duqum?

  Yeah. I want to get your perspective on how, when relating to this inner critic.

• 45:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 45:16André Duqum?

  Which by the way, could also be a lot of positive inflationary things, right? Which is, I've heard you speak to how they're both ego, whether it's deflationary or inflationary.

• 45:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, totally.

• 45:25André Duqum?

  And we can dive into that, but there's the various different ways we could react differently, respond differently to the voice, which might undermine it, playful, like changes how we relate to it and the power it has over us.

• 45:38Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 45:39André Duqum?

  I think many of us have the experience of this fractured sense of being in our head, like there's a voice in our head, there's our dialogue with that voice in our head, and it's like, in so many ways, sapping our own life and our experience of life. And my personal experience was, I guess, giving me the most freedom from that voice is how closely identified I am with it. And I want to get your perspective on this. There's the analogy of like, being in traffic and it sucks and you're in bumper to bumper traffic, but you're going to the airport, you get in the plane, you take off, you look back down at the traffic and all of a sudden it's kind of beautiful.

• 46:15Speaker 02

  Right, right, right, right, right.

• 46:16André Duqum?

  The only thing that changed was the distance from it.

• 46:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 46:20André Duqum?

  And so, when you examine like, what really creates the most freedom, do you feel that it's actually creating distance from you and your identification with them? Not that they're not there, but like, how loud they are in your awareness?

• 46:34Speaker 02

  Definitely helpful. It's definitely helpful to notice that it's not you. Yeah. It's also really helpful to notice that it's talking to itself, that it's not talking to you. That's a really useful one.

• 46:53Speaker 02

  You're not doing a good job means it's not doing a good job.

• 46:56André Duqum?

  It's like a phenomenon happening in and of itself, like...

• 46:58Speaker 02

  It's projecting onto it. It's projecting, it's projecting itself onto you.

• 47:04Speaker 02

  So, this one's a mind bender, but like, think about the five things that negative self-talk, "You haven't done enough." "I've done more than you." "What are you talking about?"

• 47:14André Duqum?

  You don't even exist, technically.

• 47:15Speaker 02

  Exactly, right? Or, you know, "You're, uh, you're too judgmental." Really?

• 47:24Speaker 02

  You haven't, you know, you're not productive enough. Like, most of the things it says is, it's more true about it than it is about you.

• 47:32Speaker 02

  It gets weird when it's physical, but there's actually a way to look at it that way, but that would take too long. But generally, it's, that's the, that's another really useful thing, is to see that it's, it's projecting onto you. Just like the people who installed it were doing.

• 47:47Speaker 02

  Just, you know, your parents or your teachers or whoever installed that negative self-talk.

• 47:53Speaker 02

  Unconsciously, they were projecting onto you.

• 47:56André Duqum?

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• 49:24André Duqum?

  What has been your experience with nonduality? I know, did you study with Ajahn Shanti for some time?

• 49:30Speaker 02

  I spent, I spent 12 years chasing it and probably 10 years mostly meditating. Yeah, yeah.

• 49:36André Duqum?

  Wow. Okay.

• 49:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 49:37André Duqum?

  I saw a tweet that you kind of talked about, like you had like 10 steps of your journey with nonduality and.

• 49:41Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. I remember that.

• 49:43André Duqum?

  And in terms of discovering the unchanging ground of our being in that awareness.

• 49:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 49:50André Duqum?

  How does marinating in that space help us relate to our thoughts and where the potential pitfalls of overly identifying perhaps with that being absolute truth in a sense? I'm curious your thoughts on that.

• 50:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, so I can just tell you my experience of it.

• 50:08Speaker 02

  Super, super useful. So I think they call like my experience of awakening was, I think they call it like cloud walker or fog walker or something like that where it happened and I didn't particularly notice it. I've been working for years to get it, but I at some point was like, oh, just another elevated state, whatever. That's not what I'm after. Just another. And so I had this experience and I was just, oh, just another elevated space. And it took me a while to recognize that like the voice in the head had completely changed. The editor was gone. And then I identified as that. There's a, there's another backwater that happens that I was very lucky not, not to have it not happen to me. And

• 50:51Speaker 02

  it's just because of the way my journey went, which was, a lot of people have that experience in that they think they're done, which is just hell on earth to think you're done. And so I was lucky enough that the moment that the recognition came immediately, and part of the reason I think I didn't recognize it, immediately the thought came, oh, and this never ends. This shift, like this, the shifting, this evolution, it just never ends. And so that's one place that I see people get stuck. They, they think they, they've like gotten there, which is like, and now evolution has stopped because of your meditation practice. And then, so the other one that's equally as funny is now like I, I am, I'm the awakened guy.

• 51:36Speaker 02

  I, you know, instead of that just being one more step in, you know, I'm the walking guy. I'm the talking guy. I'm the, you know, I can have a hypothetical thought at 16 years old guy, you know, and now I'm the awakened guy because it's just, it's in our nature. This isn't, it's not special. It's not spiritual. It's just like, it's just growing up. If we, if we don't get stunted because of trauma, it's just part of how we as, as humans mature. And so, but we, then there, and I got stuck there for a bit, thinking I was the awakened guy.

• 52:16Speaker 02

  And, and a lot of the emotional work came in because what I noticed was, yeah, there's a lot of peace, but where the hell was the joy? Where was the love? And that's when I noticed that a lot of my experience in defining myself in that way and the going to the great peaceful abyss was to avoid emotional experiences. Just, hmm, what's, what's going on there? And, and there was an early stage of that in meditation. I think it was maybe like four years in where I realized, oh, wait, I'm just managing myself. This isn't meditation. This is just management. What, what? And so there, but then there was this, after what people would call awakening, then there

• 52:58Speaker 02

  was this realization that this was also a form of avoidance. And it was just emotional avoidance. And, and so that's when that journey really started to kick in, in a big way.

• 53:10André Duqum?

  Did you find it actually more difficult to connect with your emotions after that?

• 53:14Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 53:15André Duqum?

  You did?

• 53:16Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, absolutely. So I started to do the emotional work before that moment. And then by when that moment left, then I was just like,

• 53:29Speaker 02

  Yes, that's an emotion. You know, it is. And I actually had to like- Emotion there is. See, you're way through. Totally. And so there is this, uh, this, this, what happened inside of my system was I would, for whatever reason, have the intelligence to, the inherent intelligence to really like amplify any emotional signal that I could get. And that's what I actually had to do. And I, and I had a, like, a very short-lived teacher at the time, whose name escapes me. And he, he basically made a living with Tibetan monks, teaching them their emotional

• 54:09Speaker 02

  experience because that there, and he called it, he's like, "Oh yeah, I drag monks back into hell." That's how he described it. That's hilarious. That's a good Instagram bio.

• 54:24Speaker 02

  And so, and so there, there, and, and I get to work with some people who are in that same place. There's a couple of folks who've been working with us some years, came very, very in that non-dual place and, but the heart wasn't, wasn't open and now their heart's just wide open. And, and the heart can't really identify the way the brain can. So you can have that nice big head awakening and still have quite a bit of identification, even though you have access to this really big, spacious, peaceful place. You don't, you're not, you don't have access to the joy and to the, and to the like un- ungodly amount of love that, that courses through us.

• 55:07Speaker 04

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• 55:37Speaker 05

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• 56:07André Duqum?

  I feel like, I feel like there's parts of that that just really resonate with me in my journey the past 10 years, like exploring meditation, experiencing a lot of peace. And I still feel like there is, there is room for growth in terms of my emotional bandwidth.

• 56:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 56:24André Duqum?

  Like if we imagine 88 keys on a piano, like many of us have like one or two keys in there, like middle C and like around. So if you were like coaching me through the lens of your own experience, going through that, you know, 10 years of meditation and non-duality.

• 56:43André Duqum?

  What is the, what is the best way to like drag the monk back into hell?

• 56:49André Duqum?

  Because again, we can have this awakened state of consciousness and awareness of that unchanging ground of our being and how much peace and beauty there is there and impartiality of that. But then like you're speaking to it, it kind of makes it harder to pick up on, it makes it harder to take any neurosis seriously because you see the illusory nature of it.

• 57:09Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 57:10André Duqum?

  So what, yeah, what would I, what would you do?

• 57:13Speaker 02

  The first thing I would tell you is your, your emotional journey is going to be easier because of it, once you get over the first hump. If you want the quickest way to do it, have two girls.

• 57:24Speaker 02

  That'll get you. You know, there's a teacher that I had for a while, his name was Stephen Harrison and just buy books. And, and he said, show me an awakened guy having a road trip with two young kids in the backseat and I'll show you a human. So, so, so, you know, allowing yourself the intimacy, like the full intimacy of humanity, I think really is a great way to, to like see the parts of yourself that are.

• 58:00Speaker 02

  That are emotionally not invited. You know, find yourself on the plane with somebody with some kid crying. But any, I think emotional intimacy in relationship is like a really great place for it. And delving into all the places that are uncomfortable there, just the same way you delved in through your meditation practice into all the uncomfortable parts of your consciousness. Do the same thing, but just do it in relationship is usually like, is a very effective way to go. And so that would include something like business, because business is a whole bunch of relationships. And, and oftentimes, what I notice is there's this, I think it was Eckhart Tolle. But there's this, you know, endless question.

• 58:45Speaker 02

  I think Eckhart Tolle talked about this, but there's this endless question is like, right? If I'm awakened, I should be able to live on top of a disco and be happy. But because I'm awakened, I'm not going to live on top of a disco. Like, I don't, I don't want it. Like, why would I invite that into my life? Occasionally live on top of a disco. You know, go into the places where it's uncomfortable in humanity. Whether that's like living on top of a disco or going to a Dodgers game or, you know, there's a, there's a Tibetan teacher I was learning about and he would, you know, I think maybe he was maybe a Bhutan, but he would, you know, six months in caves,

• 59:30Speaker 02

  meditating away, and then he'd come to America with his students and they'd all go to like, soccer matches where all that, like, they'd all get in fights. And they would, you know, so like, allow yourself that intimacy with your own humanity or with other people's humanity. And recognize that all of it is in you. There's just no way you can't have all of that in you.

• 59:49André Duqum?

  Yeah, that makes sense.

• 59:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's a useful, useful way to do it. And that, and then, once it starts going, once you actually, okay, I know there's some emotion in there, I'm going to really amplify it. I'm going to pretend I remember those days. Once you do that like three or four times and you see the benefit, you're just like, yeah, I can do that all day. I'm there.

• 1:00:10André Duqum?

  You, you felt like you were able to get to the bottom of certain suppressed emotions after that journey where you wanted to dive back in to your emotional experience?

• 1:00:18Speaker 02

  I'm constantly doing. Yeah, I don't know if there's a bottom, but yeah, there's just, it's a constant. Oh, yeah, yeah, there's like.

• 1:00:28Speaker 02

  And it's always like that agency, all blessing, agency, all blessing. There's this back and forth to it. You know, it's, oh, I'm learning this new form of humility, which is that it's not me. It's all moving through me. Oh, I'm learning this new form of humility, which is I'm the, I think it's the Jewish tradition. They talk about humility as taking your God given place in the world. It's like, oh, I'm actually, my humility is now asking me to expand and become more permeable, not become smaller, not disappear. Oh, wait, now there's this new form of disappearing. And so there's always like a back and forth nature to what I noticed in the emotional

• 1:01:11Speaker 02

  world is there's always a more subtle form of back and forth.

• 1:01:15André Duqum?

  It's like that dance between waking up and growing up and both of those. And would you agree that they're both a necessity and yet fall short in and of themselves without the other?

• 1:01:27Speaker 02

  I'd say neither is a necessity. You can do whatever you like. And so, and you can live one without the other. It's just not as rewarding or fulfilling.

• 1:01:39André Duqum?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:39Speaker 02

  Yeah. There's definitely like dear friends who have really live in one and don't live in the other. And that's, that's okay with me. It seems to be okay with them. I just don't think it's, it's, it's just not as fulfilling.

• 1:01:54André Duqum?

  It's interesting because we might proclaim that I want to strive for enlightenment, failing to recognize the I as the barrier into that state.

• 1:02:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, was for me for years.

• 1:02:09André Duqum?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:09Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah. And, and the greatest thing about that I statement is that every way you look at it, it can disappear. You know, there was this Irish mystic, Wu Wei Wei, I think is what, I can't remember so many names. But he said, oh, you can try to crack your ego. You could try to destroy your ego. Go ahead and burn it with a thousand surrenders. The only problem is it never existed. That's like, wow, that's, so there's freedom. And then there's also freedom in. Okay, let go of your ego. There's also like, you know, they're like, almost any way you look at it, because it's illusionary in its nature, almost any way you look at it can show you some aspect of freedom, if you look at it.

• 1:02:50André Duqum?

  I know you work with so many, like, world-leading business execs and both in your own journey, leading your own team, and hence, supporting other with their own. How do you relate to your own ego and support others relating to their ego in a healthy way?

• 1:03:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, there's so many good things. This is, you mentioned this a little bit. So the first part about ego that I find is really important for, was really important for me to understand was that I always thought ego was, I'm important. But ego is just as much, I'm not important. So if you want to really get a full taste of your ego, like, have somebody give you a really big compliment, and everything that's in you that resists that compliment, I would call that ego. Because the way I define ego now is just more of your self-definition. And so, and as it turns out, you can't really do work in the world without some self-definition, or, and/or it's impossible to not have some self-definition.

• 1:03:53Speaker 02

  But again, it's about the flexibility. Can I be defined and can I not be defined? Can I, can I do both? Can I walk into a meeting and, "This is completely unacceptable. We're not dealing with this." This is like, uh-uh. And can I walk into a meeting and, "Whatever's gonna happen here is cool." And do I have that flexibility? The way that, if you've ever, have you ever done a Guancha 10-day retreat?

• 1:04:19André Duqum?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:20Speaker 02

  So you'll hear the story of his teacher, walking in and just yelling at people who are meditating, and then walk out and be like, "Ah, did you hear how hard I gave it to them?" And like, laughing about it. Can you, can you allow yourself to take on those roles when they're necessary for the freedom of others? That I feel is a really great way. And that's very true as a CEO. And so even more true of a CEO who's running a very like big or important kind of business. Important meaning having a large effect on the world to be able to say, oh, here I can take on this structure of forceful. Here I can take on this structure of gentle and supportive.

• 1:05:01Speaker 02

  And I can do those things when it's necessary for the for the mission that I believe in.

• 1:05:07André Duqum?

  That notion that there's ego on both sides like I've in the past. And to some degree, it still shows up have trouble like receiving gracious compliments. Or, you know, people come up, they see me like from that, listen to this podcast and share all these nice things. And habitually, there's been like kind of a turning away from it and like downplaying it.

• 1:05:30André Duqum?

  And I think finding the way to relate to it instead of like if I'm receiving it from the heart, it's different than receiving it from the head.

• 1:05:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:05:38André Duqum?

  But I've also, I feel like part of that was coming from the place of being trained to see anything as potentially inflationary or praise that it's that is building ego. And so it's bad and so you don't don't want it, but you're kind of flipping it on its head.

• 1:05:52Speaker 02

  I would say pushing it away builds ego.

• 1:05:56Speaker 02

  Taking it as true also builds ego. So there's, there's another, there's a, there's a third way, which isn't, oh, that's true. It's true. I am incredibly wise and intelligent. And oh, it's true. I am wise and intelligent.

• 1:06:14Speaker 02

  And oh, yeah, I can, I can actually see my wisdom and intelligence. So I would say it like this, somebody comes up to me and they're like, hey, Joe, you're a complete asshole.

• 1:06:26Speaker 02

  Yes. Yeah, I can absolutely see, I can, I can give you 10 ways that I've been an asshole. Today in traffic. Yes, true. Hey, Joe, you're absolutely wise. Yes, I can give you 10 ways in which I'm absolutely wise.

• 1:06:44Speaker 02

  That's freedom. That's where the ego isn't ruling you.

• 1:06:50André Duqum?

  If somebody comes up to you and says some great things about how cool and great and wise and handsome you are.

• 1:06:58Speaker 02

  Handsome doesn't happen so much, but yeah.

• 1:07:01André Duqum?

  Just had to throw that one in there.

• 1:07:01Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 1:07:02André Duqum?

  What does it feel like to receive that, I suppose? And like, putting that into practice, like that understanding that you just shared, putting that into practice? What does graciously receiving that look like without inflationary?

• 1:07:18Speaker 02

  It's a full body sport. Like, how much can I be permeable and feel all, everything that does to me? It's like, it's like pinging, it's like a pinball. I've become a pinball. It's like, and I'm better at some of them because I've had them more often. Like, the handsome one is definitely one that would be more, you know, to me. The wise one is like, it's like easier. And, and what I notice is that the more I own it, the less there's a chance that I'm going to be dangerous around it. So, or narcissistic around it. So, like, one of the things when I'm working with really powerful CEOs, not so powerful

• 1:07:59Speaker 02

  CEOs, is can you fully own that power? Most of them can't. Oh, I'm not the most important person. No, other people, it's the whole company. Like, that's most of what is said. And if they can actually own the fact that when they spit at the top, it's a waterfall at the bottom. When they see that the entire organization is a reflection of their consciousness, that's how much power they have. Yep, power is illusionary. Yep, power is only if people think you have power. Yep, all that stuff is true. But when they can actually feel and allow that, and yes, I am powerful, then they are far less dangerous.

• 1:08:36Speaker 02

  As a CEO than somebody who's not owning their power. Now, there's people who are what we call owning their power, like megalomaniacs. They're also very dangerous, but they're not actually owning it either. I guarantee you, they're not allowing themselves to feel the power that they have.

• 1:08:51André Duqum?

  It's interesting to see that that relationship between suppression and distortion.

• 1:08:57Speaker 02

  That's a great way to put it.

• 1:08:59André Duqum?

  Great spiritual leaders in those circles and spiritual communities. Sexuality, for example, is an area of topic that maybe is more suppressed, not talked about. And it's fascinating that in certain cults and spiritual circles, there's weird sexual stuff that happens and you find out the leader is doing like all this crazy stuff. And that's like one example of an extreme thing, you know? And there's many different verticals and ways that could show up. It's fascinating.

• 1:09:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, there's a, you know, there's those films about the NXIVM cult. There's like two or three films about the NXIVM cult. And one of them, yeah, I had a friend who was actually in it, which was like a fascinating story in itself. And she, she was, I have to say, I have to talk about the story for a second. She was, I love this. She, she wanted to create something afterwards and maybe she did for a while called conscious culting. So she was, you know, she was there and they were like, hey, do you think we're in a cult? She's like, yeah, we're totally in a cult. What are you talking about? This is like, yeah, look how cool this is. We're in a cult. Like, these are all the benefits of the cult. And when I was speaking to her, I was like, yeah, you weren't in the cult because being in a cult

• 1:10:10Speaker 02

  requires you to actually give over your, and she actually made them write a, like a contract with her. Like, she's like, I'll join. And then they asked her at some point, you know, do you want to get branded? She's like, no. Like, she's just amazing woman, but she, she was like, there's all these benefits of culting, as she would call it. And same way, she, it was a really cool lesson. But we were talking about Keith and, and I saw the movies and there's this great moment where he's like sitting around with his harem, though you don't, in that part of the movie, you don't know it's his harem. And he's saying, I don't get it. Why is it that people all through the bottom listen to me and think I'm, I'm like, that's it? That's the disowned power?

• 1:10:52Speaker 02

  That's the disowned narcissism that allowed that whole thing to happen? That's what, when I saw that, I was like, oh, that's.

• 1:11:01Speaker 02

  And the other thing about that is that it is, it is, it is a two-way relationship, like all relationships, meaning, I remember when I, it was like, tried to happen in my world at the very beginning, when I was starting teaching, and it's like, oh, people want you to be in that position. They want to hand over a certain amount of responsibility so they don't have to think about it, so they don't have to stress. Like, there's, there's a desire to put you in that position. And there's even more, there's a desire of certain people to be your caretaker slash, like, I have power because of proximity thing. It's really, it's really, it's really, it's like, it's a dynamic. It's not a...

• 1:11:41André Duqum?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:42Speaker 02

  And, and CEOs are in the same dynamic. I'm important because I have proximity to the CEO. It's really important for me to keep the CEO happy. I can't do that because of the CEO. CEO said I can't do, like, all that, it's all in there.

• 1:11:57André Duqum?

  And to the untrained eye, a swath of people agreeing and putting somebody on a pedestal makes them look righteous and as if they're living in like, in a holy place or to be followed and listened to. But that's, in many cases, not a great indicator of actually somebody who's living with integrity, more in right relationship. So it's, it's interesting. And that's why I, to the best of my ability, cultivate relationships and friendships where we continually challenge each other.

• 1:12:27Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:12:28André Duqum?

  And call each other forward and be mirrors actively for each other.

• 1:12:32Speaker 02

  Best gift.

• 1:12:33André Duqum?

  Without trying to have all my friends be psychiatrists for each other, because that can, that can go too far on that side too, you know, you gotta play.

• 1:12:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:12:39André Duqum?

  But, uh, but there's, in my deep relationships and friendships, all of that is kind of inherent in our connection, which I think is essential.

• 1:12:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:12:47André Duqum?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:47Speaker 02

  Yeah. The most essential thing in...

• 1:12:52Speaker 02

  My marriage as well was that the commitment to growth. Can't be each other's psychologist. That's horrible. And eventually, and slowly, you can actually be there for each other in that way a bit. But absolutely, two people who are willing to grow together and change and transform, and focus on their own transformation, not each other's, those are successful marriages.

• 1:13:20Speaker 00

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• 1:15:20André Duqum?

  You spoke to the three forms of intelligence.

• 1:15:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:15:24André Duqum?

  What do you think is a pitfall in terms of ignoring our body intelligence, especially for high performers?

• 1:15:31Speaker 02

  11,000 bits of information in your body in a second, like it's what 12 or 15 in your brain? So that's the, that's the ratio of loss.

• 1:15:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, whether it's a business high performer or a, I mean, I'm working with brilliant AI researchers and it's amazing how effective the ones are that listen to their body.

• 1:15:54André Duqum?

  Do you support people like refining that intuitive capacity? Do you describe the body intelligence as intuition?

• 1:16:00Speaker 02

  I can, yeah, if it's useful.

• 1:16:05Speaker 02

  Sometimes I'll describe it as what does your gut say? What is your, you know, one of the things we'll do is in introductions with people is we'll have them introduce themselves from their head, their heart and their gut, just so they can actually feel the difference of those intelligences and what comes out and always different things come out. And so obviously it's all one system, but it's,

• 1:16:27Speaker 02

  but to be able to make that distinction and act from those places, I think is incredibly useful. And oftentimes what like you'll see people who are professional athletes or really good athletes at something and all you have to do when they're, how do I do X, Y and Z? And it's like, how did you do that in basketball? Oh, this way? Oh, cool. Can you do that in your love relationship? Oh, you mean it's that easy? Like, it's just an amazing hack to have people understand their body in that way. But one of the ways is to describe it as intuition.

• 1:16:59André Duqum?

  How, how do you build trust with that, those hunches in that intuitive capacity?

• 1:17:03Speaker 02

  I don't. That's the real trick is to not build trust with them. It's to take them as experiments. So I'm coaching with somebody and I'm just, I'm like sonar, right? So I'm interested in their wisdom and where they want to go. And I'm pinging stuff off. Now I have pattern recognition and I've seen a lot of people go through a lot of things and I've gone through it myself. So when you watch me, sometimes it looks a little bit like magic when I'm coaching. There's people on YouTube because I can, oh, so what's happening in your gut right now? And oh, how'd you know that? You know, that kind of thing.

• 1:17:38Speaker 02

  But it's, it's, um, what's actually happening is I am very impartial internally. I'm very impartial. I'm following them. I want them to go where they want to go. And all I'm doing is kind of pinging things and then seeing what comes back to me. And so it's, I don't believe the hunches, but I throw them out because it's, it's the way that like, it's test, you know, sounding the depths, if you will.

• 1:18:05André Duqum?

  I've, I've seen you work one-on-one with people and it's a thing that I, I recognize in great coaches where somebody comes to you with a problem or a perceived element in their life. And then it quickly diverts into an area they were not expecting.

• 1:18:22Speaker 02

  Right, yeah.

• 1:18:22André Duqum?

  But you have through pattern recognition, through listening to your own internal hunches, ask a question that, that directs it into an area that is actually more at the source and root of what the questioner is really asking and wants to dissolve and move through. Is that, uh, is that more of a conscious process? Do you, those questions come to you consciously?

• 1:18:43Speaker 02

  No. Yeah, no, no, no. It's, uh, when I'm done a coaching session, I, I, I usually don't know how it went particularly. You know, I'll do debriefs with, um, with people I care about or, or students who've been with, with me for a long time, just to have an idea of how the whole thing just went. So all, I'm in this place where my brain is operating on its own. And I'm really, I'm paying most of my attention is in my body. It's not, I don't even, I can't, it's very hard for me to even remember what happened.

• 1:19:21André Duqum?

  When working with individuals, I'm assuming if they're coming to you, there's obviously a, an agreed upon level of wanting to resolve what they're bringing to you. I'm sure there's times where these frightened parts of ourselves, they feel defensive over.

• 1:19:35Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:19:36André Duqum?

  What do you think?

• 1:19:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:19:37André Duqum?

  Yeah, right. Cause that uniquely reveals our own agreeance and admittance to that thing.

• 1:19:42Speaker 02

  Yes, that's right.

• 1:19:43André Duqum?

  So I'd love for you to share your thoughts on when relating through communication with others, what is our own defensiveness, however it shows up revealing about what we believe to be true about ourselves?

• 1:19:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, usually we're defensive about the things that we don't want to accept about ourselves. And usually we're defensive because there's an emotion we don't want to feel. So you have two things you can explore. Either one will probably will reveal the other eventually.

• 1:20:09Speaker 02

  So that's, I think that answers your question. I feel like there's potentially a secondary question in that, but I can't place it.

• 1:20:19André Duqum?

  If we zoom in on an individual and they have a conversation with their spouse and they say something that they immediately feel defensive over.

• 1:20:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:20:29André Duqum?

  We spoke to it earlier in terms of the golden algorithm, really, and like what we resist persists in many, in many different ways. Is there anything else you want to remind people of when they experience defensiveness?

• 1:20:40Speaker 02

  Mostly on the other side, I want to, if you're with your spouse and they're defensive and you want to help them get to the bottom of it. First of all, it's not your job, so don't. But the other thing is to look at them and say, there's nothing in me that wants you to be defensive or thinks you need to be defensive right now. And then whatever is underneath it will be revealed very, very quickly typically, even if it's anger. What do you mean, I'm not defensive? Oh, that's the part of you that you don't want to feel right now. I can, I can, I can welcome that because I can welcome that myself.

• 1:21:15André Duqum?

  Do you see it as the process of maturity and maturation to experience the, the feeling of defensiveness and be like, oh, okay, there's, because normally we, it's like defensive and then it's control, fight on the external world because you're in defensive mode. Like you don't realize it, right?

• 1:21:34Speaker 02

  For some people, I mean, our patterns are probably more like that. Some people, they get defensive and they do this.

• 1:21:40André Duqum?

  Quiet, shut down, passive aggression.

• 1:21:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, or freeze, passive aggression, or let me take care of you. Let me like, you know, that's another one that people will do as well.

• 1:21:53André Duqum?

  That's a really important one.

• 1:21:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, so all of those they'll do for the, for the same reason. Yeah, I'm scared. I'm scared of looking at a part of myself. I'm scared that there's something here that is bad about me. So I'm going to either fight or I'm going to freeze or I'm going to fly into you and try to make myself feel good by making you change. By taking care of you, making you change. Whatever. Tomato, tomato.

• 1:22:21André Duqum?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:22:23André Duqum?

  It's so fascinating how there's innumerable subconscious perceived inadequacies that we have that lead to all these behavioral compensations, like people pleasing that you're speaking to, and how we label them as noble, you know? In a sense, in a way to avoid actually dealing with the underlying issue. When you support people with that people pleasing.

• 1:22:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:22:47André Duqum?

  What comes up?

• 1:22:50Speaker 02

  Typically, that's a relatively easy one to work with on people because once they see that what they're actually doing is disempowering them, then their sense of self can't handle it. Because their sense of self is, I'm helping people, I'm a helper. And when they realize, oh, by helping that person, you're telling them that they can't do it. You're taking care of them so that they can't learn to take care of themselves. You're giving them fish instead of teaching them how to fish. You're basically saying, you're not capable, I've got this. Right? You're making them small, you're making them into a victim. When they see that, when that clicks, it's really hard to maintain the behavior without noticing that actually what's happening is you're scared and you're trying to, you're trying to manage your reality instead of feel your fear.

• 1:23:36André Duqum?

  Yeah, it comes to mind, a couple of friends who have dealt with this experience of being nice, like the nice guy versus somebody who's genuinely kind and they have that part of them.

• 1:23:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:23:47André Duqum?

  There is always this experience of people, whether it's in relationship, a girl and a guy, or within friend groups where there's the nice guy who's always trying to cater to people's emotions. And there's something inherently inauthentic in how we experience that and might not verbalize it.

• 1:24:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:24:00André Duqum?

  But also creates a barrier for intimacy.

• 1:24:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, all of it is, ultimately, all of it is a fear of love. You might have to go through many steps to get there, but all of it is, like taking anything random, like jealousy. Jealousy is, I want you to love me, don't love me.

• 1:24:21Speaker 02

  Right? I really want you, but I'm gonna actually kind of abuse you with my jealousy to make sure that I'm keeping you away. Right? People pleasing is the same thing. It's like, I want your love, I want you, I want us to have this intimacy, but I'm gonna have to take care of you.

• 1:24:39Speaker 02

  And so, so much of this, like, there's a way of looking at all of it, which is a pushing and pulling a way of love. Because we can't actually

• 1:24:49Speaker 02

  recognize deeply on a head, heart and gut level that we deserve love. Because we were taught at some age that we had to be a particular way to get love.

• 1:25:00André Duqum?

  Yeah, it's said that fear, anger and jealousy are poisons that we drink and expect the other person to die.

• 1:25:07Speaker 02

  Say it again.

• 1:25:08André Duqum?

  Which, which Fear, anger, jealousy, these are like, these are poisons we drink and expect the

• 1:25:13Speaker 02

  The other person to die.

• 1:25:14André Duqum?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's the other one that I think is really important to speak to is, is that we talked about how you can do anger at somebody. You can do fear at somebody too, right? I'm, there's a way of doing fears to make you hold my fear for me. Oh, my gosh, I'm really scared that you're gonna like do bad on this podcast. And so are you being careful with the podcast? It's like, I'm asking you to hold that for me. Or, you know, I'm scared. It's like, actually, yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm projecting, like, what am I doing there? There's, there's this thing where we, where we often are asking someone else to hold our emotions that when we don't want to. And that also kills the intimacy in the relationship.

• 1:25:52André Duqum?

  Yeah, it seems like whatever grievances we have yet to like forgive or move through, we're maintaining our sense of righteousness by continuing to experience that pain over that. And so when, when you think about forgiveness and how many of us have the illusion that it's actually a lot about the other person instead of an internal experience? What are your thoughts?

• 1:26:19Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, apologies and forgiveness are just like massive freedom machines. They're really cool. So, most people unfortunately apologize with shame. And, and they forgive from obligation. And so if I apologize with shame, then, then it doesn't actually do my, it's, if it does anything and mostly it does this, it guarantees I'll repeat the behavior.

• 1:26:45Speaker 02

  I'm really sorry that I talked poorly about you. When someone does that, I get scared because I'm like, oh, you're gonna talk poorly about me again. But if somebody's like, hey, I talked poorly about you and that's just not how I want to be with you. And I apologize for that. I'm like, oh, that that person is that that action is going to help change their behavior. Much less likely to happen. And then it's the same thing with an apology. I'm sorry with forgiveness. If it's like, if I'm forgiving you, right? Because I feel any kind of obligation to forgive you, there's no benefit in it for me. And there's no forgiveness in myself for my part in it. And so there's a way in which if it's not obligation, if it's actually a heartbreak,

• 1:27:30Speaker 02

  then there's not only forgiveness for you, there's forgiveness in yourself. And and that's really the it's just actually a natural part of the transformation cycle. So there's a moment where you recognize, oh, I never had to this whole time. I didn't have to feel abandoned. That was unnecessary. I was making that whole thing happen. That was what? And there's after that moment, there's usually grief that needs to there's heartbreak. And you talked about this a little bit. And and the way I think about this is that every time you allow your heart to break, it increases your capacity to love. And so naturally, in your transformation process, grief is there. Your heartbreak is there because that's gonna that's gonna be the thing that increases your capacity to love, to allow love in.

• 1:28:14Speaker 02

  And so that apology and that forgiveness, it's like there's a heartbreak in it, particularly in the forgiveness, that allows that transformation. The same way that there's the heartbreak and, oh, I didn't have to be a liar for all these years. I didn't have to be abandoned for all these years. I didn't have to be hard. I didn't have to be defensive. None of it was necessary. That grief, that heartbreak is like the next step in the transformational process. And if you're forgiving out of obligation instead of from that heartbreak, then you miss that whole step in the transformation process.

• 1:28:46André Duqum?

  So important. I love how you broke that down. It feels like so many of us at different points in our life where resentment and pain is sort of a badge of honor. And then when we go to forgive or give an apology, of course, it would be nice if the other person can receive it and let go of that as well. But the expectation and attachment to that actually happening, I feel like robs us of the authentic experience of letting go internally. And then whatever happens in that dynamic happens.

• 1:29:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, and also robs you of the experience of the heartbreak and helplessness of not being seen. There's a huge amount of healing. You know, like today, I was in doing our masterclass, which is this online thing. And there was three different people who showed up with, I want my mom to like see, apologize, see me, know what has happened. And there's just no way. And in all three situations, there is a confrontation of like, yeah, that's probably never going to happen. And the grief and the healing that came out of just, yeah, that's never going to happen. So there's another thing that's happening, which is we're wanting that so that we can

• 1:30:00Speaker 02

  avoid our own heartbreak. And then when that full heartbreak moves for those people, like their capacity to love their moms is as is, is so much greater.

• 1:30:11André Duqum?

  I've had a couple of experiences where I've supported or worked with friends, whether it was in my men's group or just other relationships, where they had something like that with one of their parents, like their dad, for example, and they were dealing with addiction and struggle. And they were trying everything that they could do to get them to accept and realize what they were doing. And then they fully collapsed the energy within themselves. And the next day, they went to remission or something. It's crazy how entangled those energies are.

• 1:30:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, totally.

• 1:30:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, so this is actually a really cool phenomenon that I think very, very few people talk about. So yeah, so if you're in a marriage, say, and let's say we're married and you're worried about money, the chances of me worrying about money are not so great. You stop worrying about money, I'm gonna start worrying about money. Like, there's a way in which humans, if one person's holding that emotional experience, then the other people don't have to hold that emotional experience. And there's like an emotional experience hot potato that typically happens. And the most profound one of these is the shame hot potato, which is, I don't feel good about myself. You did this thing. And then you're, you don't feel good about yourself. And you're like, yeah, I don't want to hold that. You did it. And then like, you're just

• 1:31:24Speaker 02

  like, trying not, everyone's passing the shame back and forth, trying not to feel it. And, but it happens in all sorts of emotional, like, relationships that we have. And you can check it out in a business meeting, or like, in your men's group. If you have, let's say, somebody in the men's group who's just always doubting, and I don't know, I don't think it's ever gonna get better. And you say, I'm just gonna take on that energy for this men's group. Yeah, this is never gonna work. I think it's never, you'll notice their next share will be like, so much more positive than any other share that they've ever had. It happens in business. How many businesses have I been in where there's this one person who's holding

• 1:32:06Speaker 02

  this particular energy, like, this isn't gonna work, or we need to have marketing instead of tech investment, or whatever it is. And finally, they're, we're getting rid of that person. And then somebody else just takes it on. You're like, what, what just happened? Because it really, it's an amazing phenomenon. When you really explore that phenomenon, it's amazing, because it's, it also points to the depersonalization and the awakening, because you're like, wait, well, who am I then? Like, I'm just holding this thing that anybody else will hold. If I stop holding it, like, what, what's happening to like, who's me if it's not even the emotions or the thoughts, or?

• 1:32:40André Duqum?

  Yeah, that's, that's powerful. It's

• 1:32:43André Duqum?

  It's so fun working with relationships when they're that, when you recognize the mirror that they are for each other.

• 1:32:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. And in our, and in some of our, some of our stuff that we do that's in person, that's we don't, you know, we don't advertise or anything, we'll literally use that tool in a group to help with people seeing through them, seeing through themselves. So like, we'll ask, okay, here are the seven emotions that you're typically holding in your patterns. We're going to ask other people to hold them and see what, see what's left of you. It's a really cool experience. Yeah, it takes a lot and a lot of trust. It's like, don't, don't like, just don't try that somewhere. But yeah, it's like, you have to really build a long legacy.

• 1:33:27André Duqum?

  What's the view framework that you have in terms of communication, relationships?

• 1:33:32Speaker 02

  Okay, the way that we introduce people to the work is something we call the connection course. And that's where we teach the view framework. And where it came from was, so after the awakening, I was, met this guy, his name was Case, and kind of an ass, but also amazing. And he could have these conversations with people, much like the coaching you would see, where they, people would just, within an hour, their whole world would be different. And he had cancer and he couldn't get the treatment he wanted where he lived in Europe. And so he came and lived with us. And so we got to experience him all the time doing this work, both with others, with ourselves. And I remember, literally, you would have,

• 1:34:17Speaker 02

  we would be doing the work with each other in our living room. And the eight-year-old, you'd hear like, stay up, listening. And then every once in a while, she'd be like, ah, just stop resisting. It was awesome. So when he passed, and he had cancer, but he passed of a heart attack. I was like, whatever that was, I want to know what about that. So I was able to just travel the world at that time and find people who could do this kind of work. And most notably, Byron Katie could do it pretty well. And, and, and so I was just like, what do they all have in common? What are they all doing that's the same? Because the methodologies would be really different. And that's where the framework came up, which was view.

• 1:35:02Speaker 02

  It's like, oh, this is a way to deeply connect with ourselves and others. And, and so what I noticed about all of them is that they were vulnerable in their questions. They were They were, they would ask questions that were scary, that were, oh my gosh, am I asking that question? That's not an okay question to ask. And they were being vulnerable in their own experience of that. They were allowing the full emotional experience to occur. They were impartial, meaning they weren't trying to get somebody somewhere. They were okay with wherever the person got. They were following more than they were trying to lead. There's empathy, meaning they were with the person, they weren't in the person. They weren't lost in the story. They weren't lost in the emotional experience, but they were with

• 1:35:45Speaker 02

  them in it. And they were full of wonder. And I was like, oh, okay. Well, what if I like live life like that? And all of a sudden, better connection, better relationships. Conflict was something that became productive instead of something that became, that was destructive. I found out that I could raise money better. I could sell better. I could be married better. I could raise kids better. And so, so that's what it is. It's just basically, how do you be with somebody in a vulnerable, impartial, empathetic, and full of wonder way? So it's like, I'm not knowing something about you as far as wonder goes. I'm wondering, right? So I could know something about you, like, you know, you're been a big meditator

• 1:36:30Speaker 02

  and you're awesome. And, but that doesn't actually let me be with you as a human, you know? So, oh, well, what, what is, what's important to you? What, how do I, how do you want to relate with me? That actually allows for a deeper level of connection. And so, so that's the whole thing. That was where that framework came from. And it, and it just was a really productive way of being with people and incredibly rewarding. But it turns out that when you connect with people, that's what we actually most want. And so, you know, it makes you better at anything you're doing with humans. And it's far more rewarding, too. And so that's where the framework came from and where it is now. And there's

• 1:37:12Speaker 02

  a lot of asking questions in it, too. But it doesn't require you can be in view with yourself. Like, think about meditating for a minute and you're like, oh, I'm vulnerable with myself. I'm impartial about where I'm gonna go. I am empathetic with myself and I'm just full of wonder. Like, that's a really productive sit, as compared to, okay, clear my mind. Wait, my mind's not clear. Okay, I'm gonna clear my mind again. Wait, oh, you fucked up. Okay, clear my mind again, right? Early meditation, but yeah, a lot less productive.

• 1:37:45André Duqum?

  Yeah, it just seems like the more fruitful orientation towards life in general.

• 1:37:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:37:51André Duqum?

  Particularly when it comes to vulnerability, I think a lot of us conflate displays of authenticity and vulnerability, like they've gotten good PR agents, you know?

• 1:38:01Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:38:01André Duqum?

  And so it's like, but the, but real vulnerability is where we, when we actually truly feel vulnerable in the experience of that.

• 1:38:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:38:11André Duqum?

  How has your?

• 1:38:13Speaker 02

  And it changes, right? Like vulnerable for me used to be, I had an alcoholic dad and now it's like, that's not vulnerable, you know? So the, the experience of vulnerability changes because what the vulnerability is doing is I'm going to be vulnerable about something and then, which is me saying, oh, I'm offering this up for reflection. And if I do that 10 times and 10 times, people come back and they're like, no, you don't need to be ashamed of it. Cause most of the stuff we feel vulnerable about, we feel like there's a little bit of shame in. Then, no, you don't need to be ashamed about that. All of a sudden that shame goes away. And so then it's the next thing I'm vulnerable about. It's the next level of shame that I'm, that I'm going to allow you to see in me.

• 1:38:53André Duqum?

  Through doing this work, do you think it's possible to arrive at the state where there's actually nothing in your experience you feel vulnerable expressing and sharing? Do you think you can arrive there?

• 1:39:02Speaker 02

  I don't think so.

• 1:39:03André Duqum?

  Really?

• 1:39:04Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, it gets weird. It definitely gets weird.

• 1:39:10André Duqum?

  Awesome.

• 1:39:12Speaker 02

  It gets weird because it starts to becoming outside of the bounds of language a little bit.

• 1:39:16André Duqum?

  Yeah.

• 1:39:17Speaker 02

  But, but that doesn't mean that there's not action that you're going to take that's going to feel vulnerable. There's, there is a natural insecurity to life, like there's, there's no such thing as a secure life. And so when you're on that line, there's always going to be some feeling of, of, oh, this is scary, but it's true. But when it gets outside of the bounds of language, then it's, then it gets just weird because you can't really particularly describe it. But generally I haven't seen anybody who doesn't have some version of that. Vulnerability.

• 1:39:53André Duqum?

  In theory, both in theory and in practice, why wouldn't it be feasible that if somebody has the capacity to embrace the fullness of their humanity, that there would be,

• 1:40:04André Duqum?

  I guess, no experience of vulnerability in sharing that experience with other people? Does that make sense?

• 1:40:09Speaker 02

  I do, yeah. So, think about like the most expansive state you've ever been at in a meditation. Like, do you feel the vulnerability in that?

• 1:40:20André Duqum?

  I suppose I do in, in terms of it's, like, and what you mentioned, the insecurity of it.

• 1:40:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:40:28André Duqum?

  Like, in a sense, there's something inherently dangerous, uh, living on the edge of life and death in your experience of, you know?

• 1:40:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, the, the, the, I noticed the bigger that we're asked to become, so to speak, the more we're, the more we're identifying with everything, the more our somatic experience is one with everything. Every step of that so far that I've ever experienced comes with a level of vulnerability.

• 1:40:53André Duqum?

  Are you open to sharing what, in your own personal life, is, uh, is an experience of vulnerability now, where you're finding deeper permission to be human, where you struggle to?

• 1:41:03Speaker 02

  I can attempt.

• 1:41:06Speaker 02

  I can attempt.

• 1:41:09Speaker 02

  So, for me, there was, uh, like, a, a clear time where my narcissistic tendency was that if I felt like I was going to be hurt, I would put myself slightly above. And we had a, I don't know, I can't remember how many years ago it was, but it, it, our, my wife and I, our marriage went and then brought that to a head. And in that moment, I recognized how much pain I had caused myself and others in that just simple, oh, I'm just putting myself slightly above people as a form of protection and all the emotion that I was trying to avoid in that little move.

• 1:41:52Speaker 02

  And in that recognition came this understanding of,

• 1:42:00Speaker 02

  Of, oh, it's not me. Like, the humility of it's all moving through me. I'm not special. And, um, and, and, and, and became somewhat attached to that. Like, oh, this is, like, it's really important for me not to get a big head or to. But then there's this, been recognition recently that what's actually wanting to happen is not to abandon that, but to also integrate that with, oh, this is, this is me. This is me. This is, this is very personal. Like, this isn't happening through everybody. Because what I'm noticing is that, like, there's a, in a, there's a tradition about,

• 1:42:45Speaker 02

  like, there's two forms of fear. One form of fear is I'm gonna die. And one form of fear is I'm being asked to walk into a bigger room, or I'm, I'm asked to do something bigger. And every time I do that, and there's like a, a bigness that creates a, it's very hard to describe, but it creates like a permeability. It's like, as I allow myself to walk into a bigger space, fill a bigger room, like, there, like, there's less of me per square inch, so to speak. So there's a disappearing, but it's a different kind of disappearing. But it's a, it doesn't happen without actually being, like, actually under, acknowledging who, like, that it's me here, that it's not just all moving through me.

• 1:43:29Speaker 02

  And the perfect example of this, that really helped me click in and understand what was happening, was I was sitting across from a guy at a hot springs. He was telling me the story about this, this one moment where he was helping somebody at a DMV. He was a lawyer and he, somebody at a DMV was doing this thing, and he said this thing, and it changed their life, about their dream, and interpreted their dream and changed their life. And he just started crying in gratitude that he could be there doing that. And I was like, oh, I am.

• 1:44:04Speaker 02

  Not crying in gratitude, and I'm doing that 20 times a day. There's moments where it touches me, but they're like, and he had to take it personally. He had to say, oh, I did that to be able to be touched like that. The way that I can say, I like my, if I think about raising my daughters, I can immediately go to that place of like, ah, and that was me. I know that was me. It wasn't fucking moving through me. It was moving through me, but it wasn't moving through me. It was me and I can feel that. And, and so my edge right now is the vulnerability of actually like allowing that in the work that I'm doing in the world to actually see, oh, wow, I get 10 emails a day from people these days.

• 1:44:46Speaker 02

  Well, it was like one a day and now it's like it's multiple on different channels of people, oh, you've changed my life. This has been good. And yes, absolutely. It's not me. It's what's moving through me. But there's another thing, it's like, oh, like to allow that to actually break my heart. That's a vulnerable stance because it's like, it's asking me to get to like a bigger, allowing it to be bigger, the movement to see it in a bigger way. So that would be a place that's definitely on my vulnerable edge.

• 1:45:17André Duqum?

  That's incredible. I think so many creatives and leaders can relate to that experience too. Like when we feel like life is asking for us and how it's presenting to us is, is serving more in a different way at a bigger scale and a slightly different context than one-on-one sessions. I'm so grateful to have you in at this period of your life. I feel like you're right now at this impetus in your own career where it's like, it's widening in a deep way in terms of scale and like social media and all these things.

• 1:45:47Speaker 02

  And with that comes like all the energy that comes back at you with it.

• 1:45:51André Duqum?

  Yeah.

• 1:45:51Speaker 02

  Right? I noticed that a lot of people, as they, as that audience grows and there's more and more people's energy, the easiest thing is to defend. The easiest thing is to like armor up so you don't have to deal with it. But like, I can't, closing down like that would be how I would like drop all of this work because I can't do this work if I close down like that. But to open up to that much of it is like, whoo. It feels like I'm, at times it feels like I'm riding a motorcycle really fast without a helmet.

• 1:46:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:46:27André Duqum?

  Vulnerable.

• 1:46:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's very vulnerable.

• 1:46:30André Duqum?

  What would the most wise version of you ask if it was to formulate a question around, like helping you kind of embrace that heartbreak at scale in a sense? Is there something that comes to mind?

• 1:46:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's not how it works in my system now. It's, um, once I see that it's being asked for, then it's just a watching of its unfolding. That's what I find to be most effective and most efficient. You know, it's like trying to pull a butterfly out of the cocoon. It's like, oh, it like, by the time I know it and by the time I can say it, it's done.

• 1:47:09André Duqum?

  Yeah, that awareness of it.

• 1:47:10Speaker 02

  That awareness, it's done. Like, I, all I have to do is like, sit back and wait. Yeah, which is the most efficient approach, I find, too. It wasn't the most efficient approach earlier, but it, now it is. And then occasionally processing it, you know, talking to somebody about it, stuff like that.

• 1:47:27André Duqum?

  It's interesting, as different creators, whoever's listening to this podcast in some way, when we're asked, this kind of stretched beyond what we thought at one point would be a lot already.

• 1:47:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:47:38André Duqum?

  To continue to scale and like, that there's just more, there's more to life, there's more to serve, there's, there's more to love and, uh.

• 1:47:46Speaker 02

  Bigger challenge, more adventure, all, it's, it's, it's, it's service and it's also like, woo!

• 1:47:51André Duqum?

  Yeah.

• 1:47:51Speaker 02

  You know, it's like all that.

• 1:47:52André Duqum?

  It's a trip, what a ride.

• 1:47:54Speaker 02

  Exactly, totally, it totally is. Yeah, you're like, oh, wow.

• 1:47:57André Duqum?

  Yeah.

• 1:47:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:47:58André Duqum?

  No, that's awesome, man. Thank you for sharing.

• 1:48:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, pleasure. Yeah, thanks for asking.

• 1:48:02André Duqum?

  Yeah, I've heard you mention that, like, a lot of the frameworks we've even explored in this conversation are sort of like temporary scaffolding and, and how you also work with a lot of execs and teams, bringing in unconditional love into a sales environment or a work environment, which is so counterintuitive to how we think of that.

• 1:48:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:48:26André Duqum?

  I'm just curious for you to talk a bit of that process, like what that actually looks like and, uh, the importance of it.

• 1:48:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, so this is a little mental experiment you can run with yourself, which is, okay, you're stuck on an island and there's all the food and everything you would need on that island and you're stuck on that island with 12 people. And it just turns out that these 12 people are saints and they can love you unconditionally and they do, they choose to love you unconditionally.

• 1:48:56André Duqum?

  Am I Jesus?

• 1:48:57Speaker 02

  Nope, you're just you, you're just, you is you.

• 1:48:59André Duqum?

  Just also 12 other sages around me.

• 1:49:02Speaker 02

  12 other people just unconditionally loving you.

• 1:49:05André Duqum?

  Okay.

• 1:49:06Speaker 02

  And then you're stuck on that island for like a decade. How do you walk out? And you don't have to answer it, you can just imagine yourself walking out of that. Right, that's, that is a version of ourselves that I think all of us want to be. And, and that's how you get to that version of yourself and that's what you can do in a company. And it doesn't mean you don't draw boundaries because it's, you, there is no icon of love that didn't draw boundaries, a great mother, Martin Luther King Gandhi, whatever, Mother Teresa, all of them drew boundaries. That's part of being loving. So it's not that, it's just like, oh, right, if that kind of way that we can be with each

• 1:49:49Speaker 02

  other, it creates really productive, effective human beings. It's what we want, it's like what draws us, it's what we're trying to find in so much of what we do. So if you can create an environment like that, it's, it's, it's really productive, really amazing, really lovely, whether it's a family or, and it's, of course, starts with you being able to unconditionally love yourself or being lucky and finding an environment where there's a lot of people who do that.

• 1:50:16André Duqum?

  I am very interested and fascinated by the stories of love that is fierce and like some of those, and like some of those examples that you gave of individuals like Mother Teresa.

• 1:50:28Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 1:50:29André Duqum?

  Not that she didn't have her own faults.

• 1:50:30Speaker 02

  All of us, yeah.

• 1:50:31André Duqum?

  There's a great documentary about her that came out that I watched and we think of like loving people is like, oh, they're very peaceful, maybe just.

• 1:50:44André Duqum?

  Not taking as much action in the world per se for the individuals that are called and find themselves in roles of leadership and managing and responsible for 10, 100, thousands of people, whether it be in a business enterprise or their family relationships or whatever it is.

• 1:51:04André Duqum?

  It's, yeah, I just find those stories very inspiring and when people embody that sense of love in action and through fierceness. And so when you think of like truly powerful leaders that can like on the macro scale, shift the paradigm of human consciousness and how that ripples out into impacts of people in poverty or slavery or are in charge of teams that will change the way we work with the world, which I know with your, a lot of the AI companies, that's very much of the case.

• 1:51:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:51:38André Duqum?

  What, what in your eyes is a truly makes up for a truly powerful leader in those qualities that we don't talk about enough?

• 1:51:44Speaker 02

  Yeah. So the first thing I want to do is just check the premise for a minute. So, you know, I was talking to somebody about a choice that AI could make. And, and so somebody, there's all these AI labs and one AI lab might be able to make a choice and say, our goal is that interacting with our AI makes you a better person and that we're not doing anything besides that. And we were talking in this group and one of the people in the group said, yeah, but they'll lose because somebody's going to make AI that's addictive.

• 1:52:24Speaker 02

  We can debate that. I think AI is probably one of the few technologies where you could actually do something that's more compelling, a product that's more compelling because it actually is life enhancing because of some things. But, but what that is pointing to is that the relationship with that is a two-way relationship. It's not AI and it's not the builders of AI. It's also the people who are choosing what products of AI they use. It is also the clicks. The biggest democracy, the most efficient democracy that we've ever had is the marketplace. In fact, that like what you buy, they will build. Leaders of companies don't.

• 1:53:03Speaker 02

  They, they, they, part of what their job is, is to guess what you will buy. Like that's like, and if they're successful at it, then they make money. So, so it's a relationship and I think it's really important that people see that, whether it's a dictatorship, or whether it's a, a guru, or whether there's a relationship in it. So, one of the things that makes a really great leader is that they actually see that it's a relationship. And they also see that they have this power in the dynamic that other people don't have. And so, and being able to feel both, to be able to feel the connection and to be able to feel the power and like actually own those things, I think makes somebody a really great leader.

• 1:53:47Speaker 02

  There's a book called The Trillion Dollar Coach, which is the guy who was, I think, behind Facebook and Apple, a whole bunch of things. And Lead With Love was his thing. And he was successful, I'm successful, the companies he worked with are successful, the companies I work with are successful. It, it works, it just works. Other things work too, you can lead with greed and those things can also work. But they usually have a much shorter lifespan and you don't have the fulfillment that you would have otherwise. So, so that's another thing. I think what I notice is that everybody wants to leave a positive legacy.

• 1:54:27Speaker 02

  So the, where humans get confused is how to do that and how they disagree with that. Nobody thinks they're the bad guy. Nobody is like, oh, I'm the bad guy here. And maybe there's like a psychopath here, like it does, but you know. Hitler thought he was doing God's work. Say it again. Hitler thought he was doing God's work. Exactly, yeah. So we, and no matter what side of the aisle you're on, clearly there's people think that's good for the world. And so, so the confusion isn't, oh, I want to do good for the world. That's something that is inherent in us, it's how we do it and, or how scared we are when we do it, or what emotions we're avoiding when we do it, that's actually more key.

• 1:55:11Speaker 02

  And so, showing, like I, not showing, but when a CEO sees that.

• 1:55:22Speaker 02

  The way I say this is God isn't a sadist, meaning we think that there's this thing of like, I have to suffer so for the good of others. But as it turns out, usually the thing that's best for you is also the thing that's best for other people. And so if you can find the thing that's best for you, that is also best for other people, it's usually the most fulfilling thing. And if you find that thing and you act from that alignment, then that becomes very fulfilling, very satisfying for folks.

• 1:55:53André Duqum?

  Yeah, I could think of so many examples of, you know, when we like when we move from obligation in life, whether it's at a party or a meeting or it's like when we when we're showing up somewhere because we feel like we should and we're shitting all over ourself and others. It, uh, yeah, just it drains the authentic experience of actually being there.

• 1:56:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, the thing is I can't actually hold in my heart obligation and or responsibility in love. So like right now, think of something that you love deeply in the world, maybe somebody in your men's group or something like that. And and then just feel that in your system. And then now take responsibility for them or do obligation like you can just immediately that love just gets drained out. And so that's really the the teaching is that you're actually these are other ways you constrict yourself from loving people.

• 1:56:51André Duqum?

  Yeah.

• 1:56:53Speaker 02

  And I would, I think a leader of a company who feels that deep sense of love is going to do better work for the world than the one who feels a deep sense of obligation or who are deeply defended because they're being attacked all the time. And that's the other place that I see that people are in relationship with these companies or with these politicians. I, you know, if I was attacking you 24 hours a day, how do you think you would start changing? And that and you see it, you see.

• 1:57:24Speaker 02

  The Elon Musks of the world, like that first six, one of his first 60 Minutes interviews around SpaceX, he starts crying because he thinks of like astronauts who aren't appreciative of him and now it's like all attack.

• 1:57:34André Duqum?

  Yeah.

• 1:57:35Speaker 02

  And you see this with like creators and artists and like they get in the public eye and then they get attacked and they just hardened. And like, how did they make that kind of switch? We as a society attacked them for like decades. What did you expect them to do? Become nicer? Like, how does it, you know, so that, I think that's, again, that relationship is really important. And, and, you know, what I notice is that we take, we look at the leaders and just like, what you hate in the leaders that you hate is the things you hate in yourself. What is triggered for you in the leader is a thing that you don't accept in yourself, just like we were talking about before. And taking that responsibility leads you to freedom and it also helps them be better

• 1:58:20Speaker 02

  people, even if you're one in a million or a billion.

• 1:58:22André Duqum?

  It also seems like when we move in the direction of our sincere love for something, it's what actually enables our capacity to endure with all the BS that comes along the way. You know, even from something simple, like I'm deepening piano right now, my learning around piano right now, it's like, and if I had that obligatory energy towards it, it would, it would be, I would be dragging myself to it every day. But because there is the actual love and enjoyment of it, it's like, I can endure the pains of ignorance around different things in music theory for the greater pursuit and benefit of, of, you know, of integrating those things one day and looking at those things.

• 1:59:04Speaker 02

  Also enjoy the ignorance.

• 1:59:05André Duqum?

  Yeah. Like, yeah, it's frustrating at times, but there's definitely many enjoyable pockets.

• 1:59:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, on the frustration front, just as an example, you know, I have a woman named Sarah who's been working with me for a long time and she's like, we love Sarah. One day, one time our family was thinking about, you know, moving, we're like, we can't move Sarah, you know, we'd lose Sarah. She was like, that kind of, that kind of important to us. And.

• 1:59:35Speaker 02

  One day I came in just frustrated. I was like, and she was like, oh, I love your frustration. I was like, huh? She goes, yeah, whenever you're frustrated, it means that there's something not working. And then we're going to find out what that is and we're going to get to the other side of it. I'm like, oh, yeah, you're right. And like, so like she literally, it was the first person in a business environment who had loved my frustration. I loved other people's frustration, but to get that in back, I was like, oh, it was so good.

• 2:00:04André Duqum?

  Yeah, what a gift.

• 2:00:04Speaker 02

  Yeah. And, and, and, and you can, you can give that to yourself too. Cause there's like, oh, right. There's, that means there's some tension here that's creative. And it means that something's going to pop out of that. And it's really cool.

• 2:00:15André Duqum?

  It also shows you that you care deeply about the thing.

• 2:00:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly. Right. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:00:22André Duqum?

  That's, yeah, it's awesome.

• 2:00:23Speaker 02

  Yeah. So how could that not be enjoyable?

• 2:00:25André Duqum?

  Right. Yeah.

• 2:00:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:00:28André Duqum?

  You've been, uh,

• 2:00:31André Duqum?

  like, I feel like AI is just becoming so ubiquitous and so many of the tools in our, our experience of daily life more and more. And it can be quite frightening at the speed and how exponential it is.

• 2:00:47André Duqum?

  I'm curious, because you have this whole background and people listen to this conversation, they kind of get your vibe and like, how deep you are and also insight of what's coming in this avalanche of super, super intelligent AGI. What do you think is going to change in how we relate to what intelligence is? And how emotional clarity and intelligence is going to, how we're going to relate to that and prioritize it?

• 2:01:11Speaker 02

  I don't know. I can't, I don't, I'm not good at prediction, especially with this. I don't think anybody can predict this, whatever this is, like that's, but what I can say with certainty is there's a massive opportunity for us. And it's going to determine how we approach it. So you get divorced, you get, have a kid, you get married, you lose a job, you go bankrupt. These are major moments of transformation, trans, excuse me, moments of transition. Things are going to trans, like, and those are usually the places where people make the most transformation. Like if I'm in a, if I'm in a class and somebody's like, I just got divorced. I'm like, I know they're going to like,

• 2:01:56Speaker 02

  It's also where people deteriorate very quickly. Oh, you know, the steel factories went away in Pittsburgh in the 70s and a whole bunch of people just went into alcoholism. Some people transformed their lives and had much better lives, but those moments of transition are these, like, the ripest opportunity for transformation. We are about to go through one of the biggest transitions that I think humans have ever seen, like, equivalent to fire, equivalent to the Industrial Revolution, if not more, or agriculture, and it's gonna be the quickest one. So it's gonna be the most disruptive to our consciousness. It's gonna move faster than our consciousness probably is used to moving.

• 2:02:39Speaker 02

  And so the sense of self, the sense of what you do, the emotional waves that are gonna come with it, that's a massive opportunity for us to transform as a person, as a society. You know, there aren't really bad times, there's just us being bad in times. There's a great quote by that, by Saint Augustine of Hippo or something, but basically, we are the times. If we are good, the times are good. And so we have that opportunity in front of us to transform ourselves and/or society in this really profoundly beautiful way.

• 2:03:24Speaker 02

  And/or we have the capacity to, you know, go into a very dark place personally and/or as a society, and it really just depends on how we approach it. Do we approach it with embracing the intensity, or do we try to avoid the intensity? Do we click on the products that make us better people, or do we click on the products that make us worse people? Do we treat ourselves with unconditional love and gentleness and determination, or do we feel oppressed and lack courage in the face of the unknown? And that's really the, that's the choice we have. And that's the only thing I can say for certainty, is that that transition is coming, and we have that choice.

• 2:04:10André Duqum?

  If you had to, if you had to make a guess in terms of how we shift about our thoughts around what intelligence is, or really what it means to be human, because we're seeing super intelligent be able to do pretty much anything a human can do better by the day, you know, in terms of even creativity. And it's like, every week, it seems like there's a new AI model or video model that's like so realistic. And it's, there's not a single industry, it's not going to revolutionize. Where does that place us as humans?

• 2:04:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, knowledge work is dead. Skill work is dead. Wisdom work is what's left. Wisdom is basically the ability to make great decisions. That's a, that would be one way to describe wisdom. Emotional clarity would be another way to describe wisdom.

• 2:04:59Speaker 02

  So we can ask a model what to do, but we have to make the choice to do it.

• 2:05:06Speaker 02

  We can sit in the discomfort and the friction, or we can not sit, or we can avoid. All those are questions that a computer will not answer for us, and our wisdom will. And so the people who can answer those questions are the people who are going to succeed. And because just like today, there's a great lawyer, some amazing lawyer, but he's just really hard to work with, and nobody wants to work with that person. But we're going to work with him because he's a great lawyer and he makes us a lot, oh, no, computer can do you. You're gone. It's like, do people want to work with you? Do people want to

• 2:05:45Speaker 02

  be with you? Do, do you make decisions that are, are decisions based on fear? Are you making decisions based on aliveness? These are the things that are going to make a difference. And so it's going to be our wisdom that puts us ahead soon, is my guess.

• 2:06:02André Duqum?

  It makes me think about the shift of how we value power and the individuals that we perceive hold power in, in the realms of skills and knowledge versus all the lawyers and, and other individuals in various different other fields, for example, that you, in that example you gave, that our, our, our understanding of, of their value in the, in the world, the marketplace is going to be shifted. And the individuals who have wisdom and emotional clarity like you're speaking to.

• 2:06:40André Duqum?

  It feels like, oh, the sages are going to be the sages. And I know it's kind of a more mystical term, but those individuals that have that deep sense of gnosis and ability to be with things and the things that aren't, the things that are irreplaceable in a sense that a computer can't do.

• 2:07:00Speaker 02

  Connection.

• 2:07:01André Duqum?

  Yeah.

• 2:07:02Speaker 02

  Yeah. I hope, I know that sages have been thinking this for a while, too. So, you know, we'll see what happens. But what I noticed also is that even now, today, you know, we have this idea of a businessman, businesswoman that we get from movie screens and lawyers that we get from television shows. But when you actually meet many of them in person, there are some that are scared and narcissistic, but there's actually quite a few that are quite wise and really thoughtful and really heart open people. And so they're already in those positions, some of them are already in those positions. And so that's a fascinating thing.

• 2:07:45Speaker 02

  And so I do feel like that's probably the trend is that way. And just to make it maybe more practical for the people who are thinking about it. Right now, if I went to a society in the Amazon rainforest and one of the people at the top of that society would be the shaman. And potentially, let's just assume for a second, because in a lot of societies, this is the truth, and they're schizophrenic. So the schizophrenic person is kind of in the top of that society. And say that there's somebody who's like cutting down trees, doing lumber futures bottom of the society.

• 2:08:25Speaker 02

  Now, I go to New York City and the top of the society is the lumber's future guy is making millions of dollars and the bottom is the schizophrenic sitting on this, you know, living on the street. That's how quick it goes. That's how much things can change in one society to another society when our story shifts. And our story right now has been knowledge and skills are scarce, can't be commoditized entirely, and therefore we can pay less for them and therefore there's power in the skills and the knowledge. But.

• 2:09:00Speaker 02

  Now it's just five cents an hour or five cents a,

• 2:09:06Speaker 02

  you know, minute in electricity of a computer chip.

• 2:09:10André Duqum?

  It seems like what is so vulnerable about the position we find ourselves in humanity is because of the scale and speed at which this is happening. And like you spoke to, perhaps none other than the discovery of fire.

• 2:09:26André Duqum?

  It can't really be compared to anything else because it, because of how fast and how big it's happening.

• 2:09:31Speaker 02

  There is something it can be compared to that I've been thinking about recently, which is awakening.

• 2:09:35André Duqum?

  Yeah.

• 2:09:37Speaker 02

  Like that just shifts everything.

• 2:09:40Speaker 02

  You know, when we're working with people in our courses, sometimes, you know, they go through a shift and they're like, I went to the grocery store, I have no idea what the hell to buy. And I don't even know how to shop anymore. What the is happening? Like, you know, call up Joe, like what?

• 2:09:55André Duqum?

  Yeah.

• 2:09:55Speaker 02

  That's like a very common thing, you know, or Zen sickness or whatever. The shift is so quick and it's the only other place that I see this kind of rapid change. And we're able to handle that with a little love, gentleness and guidance. So.

• 2:10:11André Duqum?

  It seems like, like you mentioned with any crisis and that example you gave where there's a big disillusionment, it could either go into a deeper integrated awareness and awakening or the schizophrenic route in a sense.

• 2:10:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, or yeah, just like atrophied, watch news all day, hate the world place. I am a victim place. Yeah.

• 2:10:36Speaker 02

  That seems like the options.

• 2:10:39Speaker 00

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• 2:11:40Speaker 02

  See what happens, yeah.

• 2:11:42André Duqum?

  In sight of the great opportunity that we have and realizing that many individuals who are making decisions at scale are quite traumatizing themselves, like when you see that the models are being trained with the consciousness in which is training them and how that informs the parameters.

• 2:12:03Speaker 02

  The consciousness of the creators and the creation.

• 2:12:05André Duqum?

  Yeah. So what do you see, the spectrum of these different companies that you're working with and what needs, what we need to be mindful of and where maybe there's hope?

• 2:12:18Speaker 02

  So like we said before, there's nothing but good intention, I see. And there's blind spots, just like all of humanity, both in the people building and the people who are voting with their clicks. So it's like, it's, yeah, both of, both of those things are happening. Generally, I just, I notice like almost everybody I work with, I have bias because they're choosing to work with me, right?

• 2:12:46André Duqum?

  They must be great people.

• 2:12:47Speaker 02

  They're sweethearts, is what I noticed. There's a lot of sweetness and, I mean, I wouldn't say like, you know, most highly tech people are not like deeply emotionally aware. That's not usually, but some of them sure are and some of them are amazingly so. So there's, you know, there's, there's, the only thing that I would say is different inside an AI lab and outside an AI lab is the like level of intelligence, but the, and maybe also more tendency to be on like a neurological spectrum, but.

• 2:13:24Speaker 02

  But generally, it's like it's the same. It's the same inside or out. We're like, it's all a reflection. So when I say the consciousness of the creators and the creation, yeah, they're doing it, but we're all doing it. Like, this is not a. We're we're we as a society are creating AI. We're birthing AI. It's not just these people over here. It is a relationship. We, as a people, are going, be careful, be careful, which is influencing them. We, as a people, are saying, oh, my God, doom is coming, which is influencing them. What I don't see a lot of is treating the people who are building AI the way that we treated our World War II fighters.

• 2:14:07Speaker 02

  Or the way that you would treat your your future wife while she's giving birth. Be careful, you know? Oh, my God, this guy's going to destroy my life. This kid is going to take over everything. Ah, I don't know if we should give birth. Like, you're not doing that. You're there, supporting, loving. Hey, how do you breathe? Let's be in our body together. I love you, dear. I don't see that happening for the people who are building AI. And then they can be blamed. But, you know, like, most of us just won't actually look at ourselves and say, oh, we we were part of creating this.

• 2:14:43André Duqum?

  Yeah, I think it's a bit freeing to see how it's already the cat's out of the bag in a sense where it's an inevitability. And it's it's like, it gives us the opportunity of wherever we see an opportunity for growth, are we going to be, are we going to stand by and watch? Are we going to actively be the change you wish to see in the world?

• 2:15:01Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so that that to me is the, wouldn't it be great to, you know, you know, walk into an AI lab? And there's like a whole bunch of people there, loving them and demonstration, you know? I would be like, I wonder how, think about how different.

• 2:15:27Speaker 02

  The creation may be if there is, if they felt like, oh, the whole world is like loving and supporting us, or like even like, you know, the 10,000 people in front of our office are loving and supporting us. Like, how much different would the creation be?

• 2:15:42André Duqum?

  Seems like with any creation, there's a spectrum, there's a variance of different types, obviously, and different models, for example. And I could imagine how there's going to be, and there are incredibly helpful models for healing our emotional, you know, experience. There will be many that are perfectly designed for cultivating propaganda in the world.

• 2:16:04Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 2:16:05André Duqum?

  Like.

• 2:16:06Speaker 02

  All of humanity will be represented in the L L Ms. Yep.

• 2:16:10André Duqum?

  Which is so exciting and incredibly frightening.

• 2:16:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:16:15André Duqum?

  Because we know what that looks like. It's a big spectrum.

• 2:16:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. And that, yes. And so that's the, right, this is another expression of how it's, it's us again. It's a, we are the creator creating this thing and we're, yeah, I don't, yeah, it'll be its own ecosystem with its own predators and prey and everything like that. What I notice about humanity generally is that we prefer health to disease and we prefer wholeness to separation. And we prefer, prefer connection to addiction. So if you think about that rat experiment, mammals in general, but the rat experiment, you know,

• 2:17:02Speaker 02

  where they put the rat in a cage and they all become addicted and they're all like pumping the cocaine or the heroin thing. But then they put the rat into like the rat park where there's other rats and there's play and they can have sex and they like hang out with each other and like very few of them become addicted or none of them in some cases become addicted. We as mammals will choose that.

• 2:17:26Speaker 02

  So if somebody can create AI that provides that, I believe the majority of us will choose it.

• 2:17:34André Duqum?

  Yeah.

• 2:17:36Speaker 02

  And, and the ones who don't will, it'll be like a fentanyl, meaning that like that part of the society will

• 2:17:44André Duqum?

  Atrophy, yeah.

• 2:17:45Speaker 02

  Very quickly.

• 2:17:45André Duqum?

  Yeah. We'll see what happens.

• 2:17:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:17:48André Duqum?

  It's definitely an exciting time to be alive.

• 2:17:52Speaker 02

  What is that curse? That Chinese curse? May your children live in eventful times.

• 2:17:58André Duqum?

  Yeah.

• 2:17:59Speaker 02

  But yeah, I'm excited by it. I, I like it.

• 2:18:02André Duqum?

  I'm grateful individuals like yourself are, are supporting and having input with, you know, whispering great things into the leaders that shaped the destiny of humanity in many ways.

• 2:18:12Speaker 02

  I'm, I'm grateful that they are choosing to be in it with me.

• 2:18:14André Duqum?

  Yeah.

• 2:18:15Speaker 02

  For sure. Yeah.

• 2:18:17André Duqum?

  What a, what an eventful conversation.

• 2:18:19Speaker 02

  Awesome. Yeah. What a pleasure to be with you. Thank you very much.

• 2:18:22André Duqum?

  Yeah, this is so many, so many great clarifications also and appreciation for nuance throughout that I really, I really love that you brought into the dialogue. And I think very incredible frameworks and reminders for us all. Is there anything in the hindsight of this whole conversation that you feel like would be good to touch on before we close out that we haven't? It feels alive for you.

• 2:18:49Speaker 02

  So we talked a little bit about like the accumulating more or the undoing. But I wanted to give, to tie us back to the beginning and the end.

• 2:19:03Speaker 02

  For the people who are leaving, just do the, if you want to experience what I'm talking about, do this little experiment, which is just like when you're done with the podcast, lie down, sit down and see what it is just to receive life.

• 2:19:19Speaker 02

  Just like, and we can do it in this moment of, oh yeah, we can just, oh, I'm just going to absolutely receive everything that's available to me right now.

• 2:19:29Speaker 02

  And that gift is always there. All it requires is for us to receive, which is not a doing. It is not particularly an undoing either. It's just an allowing. And I think that that is such a powerful thing that so many of us miss, and it's available to us all the time.

• 2:19:50André Duqum?

  I have deep appreciation for the simplicity of that as well. I think throughout all the podcast conversations and different ideas and frameworks, our notions around accepting our humanity and awakening get pretty complex oftentimes. Yeah, I just appreciate the simplicity of that and is a great invitation to close out on.

• 2:20:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, cool.

• 2:20:16André Duqum?

  Thank you, man.

• 2:20:17Speaker 02

  Pleasure.

• 2:20:18André Duqum?

  And for anyone who wants to dive more into Joe's work, we'll link down below where you can stay connected with him. Any other things you want to point people towards, resources?

• 2:20:25Speaker 02

  The best is to get involved in our newsletter. Then you can do the free coaching and the free workshops and get in touch with everything we're doing and then see if the courses are right for you.

• 2:20:34André Duqum?

  Sweet. Amazing. Thank you, man. Pleasure to connect with you.

• 2:20:38Speaker 02

  Thanks.

• 2:20:39André Duqum?

  And everybody, appreciate you for tuning into this episode of the No Life Self Podcast. Until next week, I'll see you. Be well.

• 2:21:00Speaker 00

  This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Football has a play for just about everything. You can go deep, keep it on the ground, or draw up something nobody sees coming. And whether you want to run a flea flicker or the tush push, you need a plan to fit your unique situation. That's why State Farm takes the time to get to know you, so they can help personalize coverage for your life and budget. Now that's a solid game plan. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.

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