Pod Insights Let's Talk About Myths, Baby! | Greek Mythology & the Ancient Mediterranean Now for Cleopatra Senior!: Revisiting The Very Real Cleopatra VII with The Partial Historians About this episode On Friday we looked at Cleopatra Selene (aka Cleopatra Jr, Cleopatra VIII), so it's only fitting to revisit an old (and very fun!) episode with the amazing Partial Historians about Cleopatra Selene's far more famous mother, Cleopatra VII (aka THAT Cleopatra... Find more from the Partial Historians here https://partialhistorians.com/.
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CW/TW: far too many Greek myths involve assault. I try to provide direct warnings when there is reference to anything with overtly traumatic themes but be aware that Greek mythology regularly features assault, death, and many other potentially triggering events.
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Transcript 12,986 words · 6 speakers
Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:00 Liv Albert? Hey nerds, really quick note from me. I want to tell you that we now have the applications open for the next set of listener group trips. This is us going back to the original, the trips that we have held in the past that have been so much fun, so successful, and pretty affordable in terms of wandering around Greece with a bunch of nerds. So check out the details and get your applications in at mythsbaby.com/grouptrip.
1:05 Liv Albert? Hello, this is Let's Talk About Myths, baby, and I am your host, Liv, here with an episode. I don't know, sometimes I feel like I have to say here with and then I don't have anything prepared and thus, here we are. I hope you've all been enjoying Michaela's ongoing and new series on the Hellenistic period. This is something that is generally interesting, but you know me, I like to joke that I don't care about anything past the classical period, which is not true, but it does make for more entertainment. And I like to have other people come explain everything post-classical to me, which is why these Hellenistic episodes are so great. But this week, I wasn't quite sure where to go. I
1:49 Liv Albert? didn't want this in the middle of December to be the first new, fresh episode I've done in a while. And also, I didn't find the brain capacity because this Odyssey book is going into like the final rounds of edits. We're going to print in January. This next month is going to be wild. And so instead, I thought, okay, so Friday, we, oh, Friday, you got to hear my episode with Jane Draycott, who Michaela did the intro for that. So I don't even know what she presented it with. But I am, it was such a fun episode. We had such a great time talking about this really interesting woman who I really knew nothing about. And I think- That Cleopatra herself is so famous, but also so famous for being like this completely
2:34 Liv Albert? different creature than the human being woman that she actually was. And so I thought, what better way to follow up the fascinating episode I did with Jane last week on Cleopatra Celine, the daughter of the more famous Cleopatra, by re-airing an episode I did five years ago now, which is like honestly kind of unhinged with the partial historians, those wonderful Australian Roman historian women that we love so much. And they, they came on to talk to me all about the real Cleopatra, the famous Cleopatra, Cleopatra Senior, except Cleopatra the Seventh,
3:15 Liv Albert? but like Cleopatra Celine was an eighth. So she's still kind of senior. There's a lot of Cleopatras, the Petolames. Gosh, they loved their inbreeding and naming their children all the same, like four names. Cleopatra is one of them. So sit back and listen to this wild, wild episode on the historical Cleopatra, a woman who was just as seductive as she was, I don't know, conniving and smart and all about finding ways of keeping herself alive in a situation where everyone, or at least a lot of people, wanted her dead. I just think she's fascinating.
3:57 Liv Albert? I'm so glad I have this episode. So happy December. It's almost the end of the year. I don't know how that happened. And I hope you enjoy this flashback to Cleopatra Celine's mother, the other Cleopatra.
4:18 Liv Albert? Conversations: Seduction or Strategy? The Very Real Cleopatra the Seventh with the Partial Historians.
4:33 Liv Albert? Thank you ladies so much. I'm here today with the partial historians to talk all about Cleopatra, who is one of the first real women I've covered on my podcast, and it seems very appropriate that we go with her. Technically Cleopatra VII, which I think is often forgotten, is quite how many Cleopatras there were before her, but she is the most famous one. Thank you so much for being with me. And basically, we're here today for you guys to just kind of teach me, and therefore also my listeners, everything you want to about Cleopatra, because I personally don't know half as much as I would like.
5:09 Speaker 01 She is a fascinating case study. We are so excited to be here.
5:13 Speaker 02 That's Dr. Rad.
5:14 Speaker 01 Yeah, I'm Dr. Rad, by the way, yeah.
5:16 Liv Albert? And you're Dr. G.
5:17 Speaker 02 I'm Dr. G.
5:18 Liv Albert? Those are the two voices, so welcome.
5:21 Speaker 02 So Cleopatra, I think, Dr. Rad, I think you should definitely start, because Cleopatra is one of your key women, as it were, in your life as a teacher?
5:31 Speaker 01 She is, yes. I'm lucky enough to get to teach a little bit about her. And I must admit that actually, when I first started doing my PhD, it was initially going to be very heavily featuring Cleopatra in films. So I do have a special love affair with Cleopatra, but I won't start with the films this time. Start with the basic biographical details. All right, so Cleopatra VII, as you rightly pointed out, is born into a pretty high drama family situation, in that the Ptolemies really are like the Kardashians of the ancient world, don't you think, Dr. G?
6:09 Speaker 02 It is a real mess. Like, we don't know who Cleopatra's mother is, asterisk. And we also don't know with her father, who's his mother is, either. It's actually a sense in which he was an illegitimate child who comes into power. And so the whole family is a bit of a mess. And Egyptian court politics seems to be all about maneuvering different groups of people against each other. And Cleopatra is one of five children.
6:36 Speaker 01 Yeah, all of whom seem fairly keen to have power or just given power at some point, uh, which means that they're in constant rivalry with one another, which again is pretty normal for the Ptolemies, you know?
6:48 Speaker 02 They like a bit of drama.
6:50 Speaker 01 Yeah, just just another day at the office. Yeah. So when she is born, we're looking at sort of the mid first century BCE, I think around sixty nine is what we're thinking of. Uh, and her father's reign is not always super secure.
7:06 Speaker 02 It is completely unstable.
7:07 Speaker 01 Yeah.
7:09 Speaker 02 It is fair to say, he rules for a really brief period of time before he gets chucked out and then he comes back in again.
7:14 Speaker 01 Yeah.
7:15 Speaker 02 So there is this situation that he finds himself in, um, in the sort of the fifties BCE, where he gets, uh, overthrown by his eldest daughter.
7:25 Speaker 01 Hmm.
7:26 Speaker 02 Berenike. And so he has to leave Egypt in a bit of a hurry, um, ends up in Rome and it's like, guys, could you help me get my kingdom back? And they're like, sure, how much are you going to pay us?
7:36 Speaker 01 One million dollars.
7:41 Speaker 02 Yeah, he pays a lot of money to the Romans to.
7:44 Liv Albert? Wow, to get it back from his daughter. So his daughter took it from him?
7:48 Speaker 02 His daughter took it from him.
7:49 Liv Albert? So he's paying all that to get it back from his daughter?
7:50 Speaker 02 Yeah.
7:50 Liv Albert? That's great.
7:51 Speaker 02 Yeah.
7:51 Liv Albert? That's good stuff.
7:52 Speaker 01 Yeah. And of course, once he gets it back, I mean, what else would you do to a misbehaving child? But execute them.
7:59 Liv Albert? I mean, there's no other way.
8:00 Speaker 01 There is, there is no way to deal with that. I mean, what are you going to do? Go to your room? I live in a palace, that's not a punishment.
8:05 Speaker 02 Get into the desert now and stay there.
8:07 Liv Albert? Yeah. It's from my room that I took the kingdom from you in the first place.
8:11 Speaker 01 Yeah, exactly.
8:13 Speaker 02 Dad, face it, you're just not that cool.
8:15 Speaker 01 Yeah, so Cleopatra would have seen all of this happening. She would have seen the relationship her father develops with Rome, the kind of relationship that it is. She would have seen what happened when her sister tried to take power. We can only guess what kind of impact this would have had on her.
8:34 Speaker 02 It's fair to say, though, that there is a Roman presence in Egypt from the 50s onwards, because the army that Ptolemy, and this is Ptolemy the 12th, pays for, uh, ends up being garrisoned in Alexandria to make sure that he retains power now that he's paid for these Roman mercenaries, essentially. Uh, so there is a Roman presence in Egypt, um, during Cleopatra's early life, and some rumours have it that Antony was part of that force.
9:05 Speaker 01 Yeah, so they met when she was a kid.
9:08 Speaker 02 Yeah, he sees her off in the distance when she's about 16, apparently, and he's in his, like, late twenties. Um, and that might be a bit of a foreshadowing.
9:18 Speaker 01 Spock, Spock, Spock, Spock.
9:21 Speaker 02 At least from his side.
9:22 Speaker 01 Yeah.
9:23 Liv Albert? I mean, 16 is, I guess, not as young as she could be for that world. I was kind of reassured by hearing 16, but who said child?
9:31 Speaker 01 This is true. This is very true.
9:33 Liv Albert? It's awful to be reassured, but like comparatively.
9:35 Speaker 01 No, we, we, we all deal with ancient world subjects. We know how bad it could have been. Yeah, so essentially what ends up happening for Cleopatra is that when she's around the age of 18, her father dies and he leaves control of Egypt to herself, but also one of her younger brothers, Ptolemy the 13th.
9:57 Speaker 02 An unlucky number.
9:58 Speaker 01 So it would turn out. Yeah, and very quickly, things aren't going smoothly between the two of them. I mean, obviously, they've got the whole brother-sister dynamic going on, you know, the kind of husband-wife, brother-sister vibe so common to Egypt, you know, the Ptolemies.
10:15 Liv Albert? Lovely.
10:15 Speaker 01 Yeah, exactly. They've, they've picked that right off, right off where the Egyptians left off. Um, but yeah, but they do not get along, seemingly because Ptolemy the 13th is surrounded by court advisers that are anti-Cleopatra.
10:29 Speaker 02 He's actually very young as well, so we're talking about, what, 10, 11?
10:33 Speaker 01 I actually thought he was about 13, but still very young. Yeah, still very young.
10:36 Speaker 02 Quite young, and so he doesn't, he's not fully a ruler yet. He definitely has a regent, and he has a whole bunch of court surrounding him as well. I mean, they both do, but she's slightly older, um, a little bit more mature, perhaps. Um, but it seems that Ptolemy the 13th is really open to the persuasion of his cabinet, which makes sense. He's a bit of a kid.
11:01 Speaker 01 Yeah.
11:03 Speaker 02 But it is a problem for Cleopatra, but it's also a problem for Rome. Because one of the things that their father does with his will is he says that he wants Cleopatra and Ptolemy XIII to rule jointly. And that the executors of his will, in this case, are to be the Roman people. Which means he basically gives Rome the option to come into Egypt at any time after his death to sort out a situation if they need to.
11:30 Liv Albert? That seems ominous.
11:32 Speaker 01 Yeah.
11:32 Speaker 02 Yeah.
11:32 Speaker 01 Yeah, that's definitely where, that's definitely where we're going to insert this sound, this sound effect. Dun dun dun.
11:37 Liv Albert? Yeah. It's like, I think you've just asked for some horrible thing to happen with that.
11:42 Speaker 02 Yeah, it does open the pathway for Rome to feel that they are legitimately going into Egypt whenever they turn up. And as we see throughout Cleopatra's career, they do turn up in a number of different ways.
11:55 Liv Albert? There's some famous instances, I would say.
11:57 Speaker 01 Yeah.
11:58 Liv Albert? Even, even those I know.
11:59 Speaker 01 Yeah, and it happens fairly quickly because as luck would have it, Rome is also engaged in a civil war around this time. Caesar and Pompey squaring off against each other. Caesar beats Pompey, Pompey runs away to Egypt, presumably where he's anticipating to regroup. Because he's had this relationship with Ptolemy XII, Cleopatra's father. In that he was one of the people that helped to shore up his reign when things were looking incredibly shaky. But unfortunately for him, when he turns up with his little entourage, which includes his family, as he's walking towards the shore, he is famously decapitated.
12:38 Speaker 01 And it would seem that they did this because they were thinking that Caesar, well Caesar won the civil war, therefore we want to please Caesar, not this loser.
12:45 Liv Albert? Famously decapitated is a great phrase.
12:49 Speaker 01 Well, you see, his head turns up in a jar, Caesar cries over it, you know, you know, yeah.
12:54 Liv Albert? That's famous. Yeah, that's incredible.
12:56 Speaker 02 The classic head in a jar situation.
12:58 Speaker 01 Oh, yeah, yeah. And Caesar then adding extra salted water to that pool when he gets it and is like, oh, Pompey.
13:07 Speaker 02 Little tears falling into the jar.
13:09 Speaker 01 It was not his time, not his time. Yeah.
13:12 Speaker 02 Um, yeah, so Egypt's in this weird situation because Cleopatra and Ptolemy the thirteenth have not got it along. And they're bickering about power at the same time that that civil war that has broken out in Rome. So there's both a civil war in Egypt and a civil war with Rome. And so Pompey turns up to an Egypt where he's not expecting it to be so out of control as it is.
13:35 Speaker 01 Yeah.
13:35 Speaker 02 He thinks it's a little bit more stable than the Roman situation. He doesn't realise until he gets there and it's far too late. And he has no head left.
13:42 Speaker 01 Yeah.
13:43 Speaker 02 Um, and Cleopatra at that stage has run off because Ptolemy the thirteenth has really started to dominate. Um, his faction has risen to the top and she's basically had to flee, uh, and to regroup with forces so that she can come back.
13:59 Speaker 01 And now we set the scene for, of course, one of the most famous moments of Cleopatra's life. Which is when Caesar rocks up, establishes himself in the palace of Alexandria and he's hanging out there. Recovering from the shock of finding Pompey's head in a jar. When Cleopatra decides now is the moment to try and, you know, put her case to the Romans and do what her father did, I guess, and get reinstated, you know, with the, with the backing of the Romans. And so she famously has herself smuggled into the palace in some form of cloth, either a rug or a pile of laundry.
14:33 Speaker 02 Some kind of bag, a giant bag.
14:35 Speaker 01 Yeah, filled with clothes. Yeah. And then brought into Caesar's room where she's like, ta-da.
14:42 Speaker 02 He's like, excuse me?
14:44 Speaker 01 You may be impressed.
14:48 Speaker 02 It's a problem for Caesar though, because by the time she turns up in Alexandria and Caesar is in Alexandria as well. The situation with the Egyptian civil war has also taken another turn.
15:00 Speaker 01 Hmm.
15:00 Speaker 02 Because it's not just, uh, Ptolemy the thirteenth sort of going for sole rule. It's also his other sister, Asinaway, who has also built a rival faction in Alexandria. And is now threatening to steal his troops from underneath him. Um, by persuading the leader of them to come over to her side.
15:20 Speaker 01 Yes, it's not, there's no civil war like a three-way civil war.
15:23 Speaker 02 Yeah.
15:25 Speaker 01 Yeah, so it's pretty tense. You've got Ptolemy the thirteenth, Cleopatra and Caesar all holed up in the palace in Alexandria. And you've got Aesinae having snuck out of the palace and made her way to armed forces.
15:39 Speaker 02 Yeah, and she's basically holding the rest of the city outside the palace area of Alexandria. Uh, and this leads into what is known as the Alexandrian War. So it takes about a year. Caesar almost dies on a couple of occasions, uh, while he tries to figure out how he's going to sort this situation.
15:57 Speaker 01 Yeah. And in this time, at some point, we are fairly certain that Caesar and Cleopatra get down to business.
16:09 Speaker 01 Another great sound effect.
16:10 Liv Albert? I mean, if you get smuggled into his room in some sort of cloth, I feel like, you know, something's bound to happen.
16:17 Speaker 01 It, it is sending a message, I suppose.
16:20 Liv Albert? Yeah.
16:21 Speaker 02 What can I offer you, Caesar?
16:22 Liv Albert? Interested at the least.
16:25 Speaker 01 Yeah, definitely. Um, and, and I mean, this is the thing. You don't want to reduce Cleopatra to these sorts of moments, but it would, it would make sense, according to ancient world standards, I think, for them to have struck a political deal and then to have kind of solidified that by forming a sort of personal relationship on top of that.
16:44 Speaker 02 Yeah, I mean, this is pretty standard in the ancient world and the Romans are very used to it and the Egyptians are very used to it. Whereas a liaison is a political engagement and Cleopatra doesn't do things any differently from anybody else in this respect. Um, she tries to shore up the deal. Um, she's luckily in the palace, so she has access to Caesar. And it seems that it goes well and a child is produced.
17:10 Speaker 01 Hmm.
17:10 Speaker 02 Um, and that seemed, and they do seem to get along. They go on this trip along the Nile.
17:15 Speaker 01 Or do they?
17:16 Speaker 02 Or do they?
17:16 Speaker 01 Yeah.
17:17 Speaker 02 After the Alexandrian War, not while the war's happening, but apparently post-war.
17:21 Speaker 01 Yeah.
17:22 Speaker 02 Or do they?
17:22 Speaker 01 Yeah. Yeah, well, at some point, definitely a child is conceived and it, it seems fairly certain that Caesar is the father. And, and this is significant because famously Julius, I keep saying that famously. Famously Julius Caesar was not able to have a male heir with any of his legitimate Roman wives.
17:42 Speaker 02 Doesn't have the gear.
17:44 Speaker 01 No.
17:44 Speaker 02 Yeah.
17:46 Liv Albert? It's all Cleopatra. It's all, she's clearly, she knows what she's doing.
17:51 Speaker 02 Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's clearly a strategy. Um.
17:55 Liv Albert? Well, it seems like she's just very strategic in general. Like, I, I mean, of course, so many of these things have turned into sort of poor ideals of her or portrayals of her as if she's some sort of, you know, seductor. But it seems to me it's more about strategic and knowing how to get the power you want versus, you know, I mean, it's, there's no harm, I think, in that world and taking advantage of the fact that you're a woman. So you hold less power or different power. So like, use what you
18:22 Speaker 01 Yeah, I, I think, yeah, I think there is a mutual wheeling and dealing happening between Caesar and Cleopatra that is often overlooked in popular imaginings of this, these sorts of moments. Caesar also could really use the backing of Egypt because Egypt, of course, is a potentially very wealthy area. You know, when things are going well, lots of grain, you know, other precious resources, you know, it's, it's, it's a good country to have on your side, especially if you've just fought a civil war.
18:53 Speaker 02 Yeah. And it's the sort of thing as well where, I mean, it's this kind of thing where we maybe credit too much from hindsight, but there's no way that Cleopatra could anticipate that the child that she would have with Caesar would be a boy, which would be useful. I, nobody gets to really choose those sorts of things. I mean, that's convenient. But the political alliance would probably stand anyway because of the strategic usefulness of Egypt being the breadbasket, as it comes to be known, um, later on. But it's, she also goes to Rome. So she does, she doesn't stay in Egypt even once the deal has been secured ostensibly.
19:38 Speaker 02 She does follow Julius Caesar back to Rome and she does spend a couple of years in Rome rather than in Egypt. So that seems like a risky move, considering the kind of court politics that we know takes place in Egypt. So she must have been pretty certain by the time she makes that decision that she's really got no rivals left.
19:57 Speaker 01 Well, she's got, she had a couple of years, um, after, after the Alexandrian War, she does have a little bit of time. In Egypt, sort of solidify things while Caesar's off, you know, fighting other campaigns and that kind of thing, and he's making his own way home. And he has, of course, captured her sister Asinide, so she's out of the way. And he's instated her in power with her other younger brother, who's even younger than Ptolemy the thirteenth, Ptolemy the fourteenth, who mysteriously disappears from the records not long afterwards. So I think she is feeling fairly secure because she's basically got no free siblings left. Because Ptolemy the thirteenth dies during the Alexandrian War, drowned in his own heavy armour.
20:39 Speaker 02 Ooh.
20:40 Speaker 01 Great end. Yeah, great end. So, yeah, all her siblings eventually are either imprisoned or dead.
20:46 Speaker 02 Or missing in mysterious circumstances.
20:50 Speaker 01 Yeah.
20:50 Speaker 02 But it seems like maybe Cleopatra knows where they are.
20:53 Speaker 01 I think she might.
20:54 Speaker 02 I think she might, too.
20:56 Speaker 01 Yeah. And so, yeah, going to Rome, obviously, and it is obviously so connected with Caesar, because he even apparently put up a statue of her in the temple of Venus, Gennatrix, which is obviously a big, big thing from Caesar, because he claims to be descended from Venus.
21:15 Speaker 02 And that's the temple that he built to solidify his claim to having a relationship with Venus. So to place Cleopatra in there, that does ruffle some feathers. Cicero famously hates her and is very open about saying so.
21:29 Speaker 01 Yeah, and I think, I think this is really where we start to get the mythologisation of Cleopatra happening. Because she arouses strong feelings in the Romans from the start. Once she gets involved in their story, and they are, of course, writing history in the form that we, we look at history these days, you know, narratives, biographies, those kinds of things. They're writing those kinds of sources, which the Egyptians aren't really producing at this point in time. So they kind of get to dictate the terms on which we see Cleopatra and how we meet her. And so I think it's during these sorts of moments, her interactions with Caesar and the, the nature of them and how they arouse.
22:09 Speaker 01 For some people, obviously, they might be into it. Definitely, I think she started a bit of an Egyptian fashion craze amongst Roman women. But other people not into it, definitely not happy.
22:19 Speaker 02 She does seem to be a polarizing figure and it's, it seems partly, some of our source materials suggest that it's not so much that she's like uber attractive. Cause that's one of the things that, that sort of crops up as this kind of like misconception of Cleopatra. But one source in particular, and I can't remember off the top of my head who, but maybe you will as I tell you about it.
22:38 Speaker 01 Plutarch.
22:39 Speaker 02 Talks about her voice.
22:40 Speaker 01 Plutarch, yeah, yeah.
22:41 Speaker 02 And the way that when she starts to speak, it's almost as if she's just so captivating to listen to. And she has such a command of her expression that she comes into a conversation and immediately changes the whole focus of it just by being there. And that's just kind of like an X factor. That's just a person with massive amounts of charisma. And there's not much you can do about that. You're either gonna like her or you're gonna find her effect on you to be like deeply troubling. And how do you respond to that?
23:14 Liv Albert? Yeah, it tends to be there's no like in the middle for that kind of, that kind of, yeah, or type of person.
23:18 Speaker 01 Yeah, absolutely. And she's also seems to be very intelligent. Plutarch also tells us that she speaks several languages, although interestingly, Latin is not one of them.
23:27 Liv Albert? Hmm.
23:28 Speaker 01 So presumably, yeah, presumably it must have been Greek that they were chatting each other up in.
23:33 Speaker 02 Ooh.
23:34 Speaker 01 Yeah. But unfortunately for Cleopatra, and Caesar, let's face it, he gets stabbed to death rather violently.
23:41 Liv Albert? That old thing.
23:41 Speaker 02 It's a bit awkward. Yeah, she does leave Rome at that point. She's like, you know what? Bad time for me to be here. Heading back to Egypt.
23:49 Speaker 01 Super awkward, guys, but I just got a phone call. Egypt needs me back again.
23:54 Liv Albert? No, it's nothing to do with the man you just killed. Absolutely nothing to do with him. I would have left anyway.
24:00 Speaker 01 Yeah.
24:00 Speaker 02 Yeah, I was bored of you guys. Let's face it. These parties are not cool.
24:05 Speaker 01 Yeah. So she goes back to Egypt and she's, she's there for a couple of years, just, you know, doing her own thing. And unfortunately, because she, because of what she's doing isn't directly super concerning to the Romans. We don't get a lot of information about what she's up to at this point in time. You know, it's little bits and pieces, but it's Nowhere near his detail because she's not having sex with a Roman general, so.
24:29 Speaker 02 Yeah, yeah, so we've got like a sort of about a three year period where we're not really sure what she's up to. Uh, and because again, those Egyptian sources are not dealing with narratives in the same way that Roman and Greek sources are. We just sort of don't get too much of a, of a picture. But she does turn up again in about four forty one uh B C and she's in the east at that stage. And this is where she famously re-meets Antony.
25:00 Speaker 01 Yeah, and Antony, of course, is busy dealing with the aftermath of Caesar's assassination. So there's again, division within Rome itself. You've got Brutus and Cassius and their crew. You know, have been on the loose, whereas Antony and Octavian have been trying to track them down and kill them in revenge. For what they did to Caesar.
25:22 Speaker 02 Yeah, and at this point, it seems like Octavian and Antony are natural allies of Cleopatra. Because they're trying to avenge the murder of Caesar. So it's in her interest to sort of check out what's going on, um, and try to figure out where she might fit in with that. And they do seem pretty grateful uh for her offer of assistance.
25:42 Speaker 01 Well, she'd actually been approached by the other side. And she was, she was quite strategic in the way she handled it.
25:47 Speaker 02 And she was like, I'm coming, I'm coming.
25:49 Speaker 01 Yeah, I, I, I've totally got some stuff on your way. It's in the mail. Oh, it should be there by now. You know what? Check your tracking number, you know, you, you gotta chase that up.
25:59 Speaker 02 Is this the situation with Dollabella? Cause there is a moment where she's kind of, she gets, she has to backtrack a lot with everybody. Because people are expecting her to turn up and she's made some promises to all sides. Um, as a way of just sort of like keeping the strategy afloat. So she can adjust and change, it seems, as it, as things pan out. And people are expecting her places and she's not able to be there. And she has to talk a lot about how we got caught in a storm. You know, the wind changed and we weren't able to leave. And there's elements of truth to all of those kinds of statements. Uh, but there also seems to be elements of strategy about them as well. Being like, definitely, of course, I'll be, I'm so sorry. It just didn't work out. The weather, the weather.
26:41 Speaker 01 Yeah. Might be a goddess, but I can't control the weather, you know what I'm saying?
26:48 Speaker 01 Yeah, but eventually, eventually she does throw her, throw her hat in the ring with Antony and Octavian. Definitely, yeah. Antony and Octavian have got this alliance happening. And Antony, now that Bruce and Cassius are dealt with, he's thinking that he's going to pick up where Caesar had left off. Just before Caesar was assassinated, he was thinking he was going to go on a campaign against the great Parthian empire. So Antony decides that's what he's gonna do. And of course, he needs resources in order to do this. And so Cleopatra would be the natural port of call for him. Yeah, absolutely. So in 41 B.C., we have another very famous moment, if you are a fan of Cleopatra films,
27:30 Speaker 01 which is the meeting of Cleopatra and Antony at Tarsus.
27:34 Speaker 02 Ah, yes, and this gets lots of traction in films. Uh, it's kind of a great moment because she does arrive with what appears to be a pretty fancy barge. Um, she's really kind of like hitting all of the high notes of like, I'm an Egyptian goddess. Not just the Pharaoh, not just the queen of Egypt, I am Isis.
27:53 Speaker 01 Yeah, so it's
27:53 Speaker 02 In the flesh.
27:54 Speaker 01 Perfumes, entertainment, food. The whole, the whole shebang.
28:00 Speaker 02 Yeah, and she, at this stage, she's only about 22.
28:02 Liv Albert? Oh, my God.
28:03 Speaker 01 Yeah, it's hard to believe that, I know.
28:04 Speaker 02 She was so young.
28:05 Liv Albert? She knows how to make an entrance.
28:07 Speaker 02 Oh, yeah, yeah. And Antony, Antony at this stage is about 36 and he just like falls off his horse. Like, oh, my God, it's that chick that I crushed on years ago in Egypt.
28:21 Speaker 01 Uh, so she decides to strike a deal with Antony that she would help him if he agrees to kill all her rivals, including her sister, who is still out there, living in exile.
28:36 Speaker 02 Oh, yeah, so Asinua is what hold up in Ephesus.
28:40 Speaker 01 Yeah.
28:40 Speaker 02 Which is quite nearby, Tarsus. And she's like, well, since you're here, Antony, the way you could prove that you really like me, since it seems like you've, you say you do, uh, maybe you could help me out with this situation.
28:52 Speaker 01 So that happens and, but unfortunately Antony can't start his campaign straight away, which means that he has to winter with Cleopatra and they get to spend a little bit of quality time together.
29:03 Speaker 02 Ah, this is like a great moment. So like the winter in Alexandria. Apparently Antony treats this like a, a real holiday, a holiday from being Roman by all reports. He's like, you know what? I like Greek dress. I'm interested in this food you've got going on. The culture, I'm gonna hang out with the philosophers, not gonna do politics, just wanna learn and hang out, you know? Chill.
29:28 Speaker 01 Yeah. And of course, at this point, we presume they become lovers. Yeah.
29:35 Speaker 01 Unfortunately, Antony is actually married.
29:39 Speaker 02 Oh, that is awkward.
29:40 Speaker 01 Yeah. He's married to one of the most amazing women in Roman history, Fulvia.
29:46 Speaker 02 Doesn't appreciate what he's got at all.
29:48 Speaker 01 No. Unfortunately, Fulvia and his brother Lucius decide that they're going to kick off a civil war with Octavian whilst he's in Alexandria. So he has to leave Cleopatra to go and deal with that whole situation and, and calm everything down. Cause things are looking very tense and very shaky for the Antony-Octavian alliance at this point in time.
30:10 Speaker 02 That is becoming increasingly dicey.
30:12 Speaker 01 Yeah. And in forty B.C., they strike the Treaty of Brundusium. And part of that deal where they kind of renew their promises to each other and what they're gonna do with each other is that Antony has to marry Octavian's sister, Octavia.
30:30 Speaker 02 Ah, yes, but uh, that's a, a marriage that has interesting consequences as well. Because it's not like he really gives up on Cleopatra during all of this.
30:38 Speaker 01 No. No, it, it does seem to be very much a political marriage.
30:42 Speaker 02 Hmm.
30:42 Liv Albert? So is he, is he not married to Fulvia anymore? Or they're just kind of saying like fuck her because she's starting a civil war, so you have to marry a different woman?
30:50 Speaker 01 She actually died not long after, yeah, so when Antony comes to deal with the whole situation that she and Lucius have caused, he is absolutely furious with her. And she had just been trying to look out for his interests uh, in her own mind. And it, it al- it almost seems as though she dies of a broken heart because he is so angry with her.
31:09 Speaker 02 Debatable.
31:10 Speaker 01 Pro- probably not, probably not, but she is absolutely devastated. He is so furious with her and then she dies. So, yeah.
31:18 Speaker 02 Hmm.
31:19 Speaker 01 It's, it's a bit of a sad ending for someone who is truly legendary. Yeah. So meanwhile, whilst all this has been happening, of course, Cleopatra has just given birth to twins.
31:29 Speaker 02 She's like, wow, they're Antony's children.
31:33 Speaker 01 Yeah, and they are adorably named Alexander Helios and Cleopatra Celine. So the sun and the moon.
31:42 Speaker 02 They look cute.
31:43 Speaker 01 Yeah.
31:44 Liv Albert? Cute and also a little presumptive.
31:46 Speaker 02 Yeah, look, the kind of naming system only a goddess can get away with.
31:50 Liv Albert? Yeah, exactly. Like, a little much.
31:53 Speaker 01 Yeah, they are the children of Isis. Um, so Cleopatra goes about her business, you know, she's got her kids, she's got her kingdom. She's striking some good deals for Egypt. She seems to be doing a pretty good job. Cause I think it's kind of interesting to think, but it seems as though Cleopatra wasn't always actually very popular with her own people, particularly when she very first came to power. And that's probably to do with the legacy of her dad and, you know, all the infighting that had been going on. But the longer she reigns, the more it seems like she's winning people over because she does seem to be making moves to safeguard the prosperity of Egypt, you know, as much as she can.
32:25 Speaker 02 Yeah, and it seems that um, her deals are pretty strategic and she also gets some credit um, from some of our sources for learning to speak Coptic as well. Um, so she does go out of her way to learn the language of the Egyptian people.
32:41 Speaker 01 Hmm.
32:42 Speaker 02 And this means that she's doing something that other Ptolemies haven't bothered to do.
32:47 Speaker 01 Hmm.
32:47 Speaker 02 Um, which puts her in a new category, um, even though it's kind of like desperate times, um, for her and for Egypt and for the whole sort of pharaonic structure. She's definitely making a play to set this up for stability. And she's got a few kids in the wings for that now. Um, and Antony really does agree for his children to take a backseat as well. So he becomes more invested in that over time. And he lets Julius Caesar's child take the top rank um, amongst those children, makes it really clear that his children are second rank uh, within that structure, which is really interesting as well.
33:27 Speaker 01 Very unusual for a Roman man. They don't usually take the backseat.
33:31 Speaker 02 I think Antony might have been a special man.
33:34 Speaker 01 Yeah, so it's it's around thirty seven B.C. when Antony and Cleopatra come into contact with one another again. Because Antony is once again thinking about Parthia.
33:43 Speaker 02 Hmm.
33:44 Speaker 01 Yeah, so he and Octavia leave Rome, setting out, get to get ready for the campaign. Octavia, however, is pregnant and doesn't feel particularly well, and so she gets sent home. She doesn't get to go all the way to Egypt, which is perfect timing of it. Antony was like, yes! Frickin' love morning sickness, yes!
34:04 Speaker 01 And so when they meet again, Cleopatra does not just fall into his arms. Antony, you've come back to me at last! She has some requests for some territory.
34:16 Speaker 02 Damn right.
34:17 Speaker 01 Yeah, absolutely. And of course Antony's like, yeah, yeah, sure, no problems.
34:23 Speaker 02 She was like, you know, when you get into Parthia, these are some of the chunks that I'd like.
34:26 Speaker 01 Yeah.
34:27 Speaker 02 And he's like, right, you are, miss.
34:29 Speaker 01 Yeah, so they again winter together in thirty six. Antony is ready to embark on his campaign finally, you know, years in the making. The campaign unfortunately is a complete disaster. Cleopatra has to come and totally bail him out. Yeah, once again, solidifying their relationship.
34:47 Speaker 02 I kind of love that he's kind of like, just this like lovable doofus. He was like, I'll do it for you. And she was like, yeah, you better. And then he's like, half an hour later, oi, could you bring those extra chips? Because I kind of fucked it up. Like, sure, honey.
35:02 Speaker 01 Yeah, so it seems like he retires, probably planning to go and deal with the Parthians again and try and redeem his honour. But unfortunately, there's another situation which has arisen and demands his attention. It so often seems to happen, he has to go and deal with Sextus Pompeius, who's causing all sorts of havoc. Okay, and then.
35:19 Speaker 02 Pause, pause.
35:20 Speaker 01 Yeah.
35:21 Speaker 02 Sextus Pompeius is hugely important, let us not forget.
35:24 Speaker 01 Fair enough.
35:25 Speaker 02 He is the son of Pompey the Great, the guy who got his head cut off and put in a jar. And he's been pissed off at the whole situation with Rome ever since then, essentially. So he is very against. Caesar, because he believes that Caesar is kind of responsible for the whole situation that his dad got into because of that civil war. And then Caesar gets stabbed and then Octavian and Antony are on Caesar's side. And he's like, I'm not having any of that. And he basically builds a rebel force of pirate ships and sails through the Mediterranean, causing trouble for everybody for years. And he's hanging about with all of these sailing ships, being like, screw you Rome, screw you all. I want to deal, I want to cut. If you're not gonna give it to me, I'm gonna take all the cash.
36:10 Speaker 01 Yeah, this is, he's like, this is what Zero Fox looks like for Rome. I give Zero Fox.
36:15 Speaker 02 Screw you all. Uh, and he's often, often skipped over, but I don't want to skip over him. I'm just like, a little segue.
36:21 Speaker 01 No, you're right. I was, I was once again going to be sidetracked by the grand romance of Antony and Cleopatra and totally forget about the pirate captain.
36:28 Speaker 02 The pirate captain?
36:30 Liv Albert? I'm very glad I heard about the pirate.
36:33 Speaker 02 But he has been causing trouble, um, and they do have to deal with him. And at some point they decide that they actually need all of their forces combined in order to deal with Sextus Pompeius, because he has just caused so much trouble.
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39:36 Speaker 01 One way or another, Anthony ends up back in Alexandria after dealing with Sextus Pompeius.
39:41 Liv Albert? And all the pirate ships.
39:42 Speaker 01 Yeah, and all the pirate ships and all that kind of stuff. And it's around 34 BCE that we get a very big moment, which really, I think, is a turning point for this whole story. And that is the donations of Alexandria. Yeah. So it's where Antony and Cleopatra put on this huge show.
40:04 Speaker 02 It's the party to end all parties.
40:06 Speaker 01 Yeah, it's this huge, all this pageantry and Antony kind of just divides up all his territory and bestows it on Cleopatra and all the children. Now, I should point out, this is not land that he actually has any right to give anyone.
40:22 Speaker 02 Doesn't really own any of it.
40:23 Speaker 01 No, he is not master of the universe and these places actually have rulers already.
40:29 Speaker 02 Doesn't really matter. Yeah, yeah, don't worry about that. We'll figure out the fine print later. Um, the important thing is that you're gonna have them.
40:37 Speaker 01 Yeah, so it's definitely, you can definitely see this sort of structured thing with Cleopatra and Antony at the top. And then you've got Caesarion and then you've got Antony and Cleopatra's children underneath that, all having their own little realms in this like monster dynasty that they seem to be creating.
40:54 Speaker 02 Yeah. And so this is where the moment comes where, uh, Cleopatra is heralded as the queen of kings. Uh, and the, yeah, and the new Isis like reborn. It's like she's fully come into her own and it's this sort of grand gesture. I think of just how much he might be like completely in love with her by this point. That seemed like, I mean, from a political standpoint, this is crazy. This is bonkers stuff for him to be doing. So you have to think at some point that maybe he's turned from like being politically strategic to just being, I'm all in.
41:26 Speaker 01 Yeah. I think up to this point, he could definitely justify his relationship with Cleopatra, like when, when his Roman buddies were like, hey dude, like, what's up with you and Cleopatra? Like, well, Octavia's not good enough for you? You don't like Rome anymore? And he'd be like, guys, guys, got this all under control. Just using this chick so I can get some resources for Pathy. You know what I'm saying?
41:45 Speaker 02 Egypt is really strategic and if I have their backing, we'll definitely be able to take the east.
41:49 Speaker 01 Yeah, it's all about the grain, y'all.
41:52 Speaker 02 But no, at this point, at this point it's pretty clear that things have shifted for him.
41:57 Speaker 01 Yeah.
41:58 Speaker 02 And the Romans are all over this. And Octavian in particular is kind of like, that's it.
42:02 Speaker 01 Yeah.
42:02 Speaker 02 I'm done with this.
42:03 Speaker 01 Yeah.
42:04 Speaker 02 This guy has lost it. He is an embarrassment to Rome and we just cannot have this continue.
42:09 Speaker 01 And of course, this is also, I, I admit, an insult to his sister, who has borne Antony children by this stage as well. And they are still married. Like, what is he doing?
42:20 Speaker 02 Yeah. Oh, yeah. Cause there's like the third, they have a third child at some point as well.
42:24 Speaker 01 Antony and Cleopatra have a third child, but Antony and Octavia have two children together.
42:30 Liv Albert? The man is busy.
42:31 Speaker 02 He's doing a lot of business.
42:33 Speaker 01 Yeah.
42:34 Speaker 02 Stretching himself thin.
42:35 Liv Albert? But also it's like, so that's a lot of travelling between Rome and Egypt. Like, I mean, the Mediterranean is pretty big.
42:42 Speaker 02 Yeah.
42:42 Speaker 01 Yeah, lot of, lot of seed to spread.
42:44 Liv Albert? Yeah.
42:45 Speaker 02 Yeah. You've got to be on the ground to do the business.
42:48 Speaker 01 Yeah. Not like modern days.
42:53 Speaker 01 Yeah. So this is definitely the moment when again, things start to shift, I think, for Cleopatra in terms of the way that Rome wants to deal with her. So now she's really quite scary and threatening because a man at the top of his game, you know, he's got a reputation as a good general. You know, he's got the connection to Caesar. He's really ruling, ruling the Roman world alongside Octavian. And yet he is willing to make these sorts of crazy political moves for Cleopatra. And this is where we start to get the kind of attraction, but also I think really crippling terror at the power that Cleopatra must have over someone like Antony. You know, the, the seduction, the potential for seduction that she has.
43:37 Speaker 02 Yeah. And this kind of calls into relief all of the people in Rome that already knew her from her previous encounters and the time that she spent there. And if they didn't take to her, then they've really turned on her by this point. And this is a really strategic play for Octavian at this point as well, because he can reclassify the situation.
44:01 Speaker 02 As an external war from Rome's perspective, they have to take out Cleopatra. She is the danger. Rather than making it a civil situation where going after Antony is just a perpetuation of the civil unrest that Rome has been experiencing for years now. Um, they can turn it into what they like to call a just war and be like, well, she just needs to go.
44:24 Speaker 01 So you've got, you've got a lot of mythologizing of Cleopatra that's going on all throughout this time. Obviously, the moment she's become queen, she's producing her own propaganda. You know, some target, mostly targeted obviously towards like her Egyptian subjects and that sort of thing, but she is putting out her own image and creating her own image there. But then the more that she's entwined with Antony, the more that they start creating their own propaganda of them as a couple. So, you know, coinage with them both featured on it together. And again, notoriously Cleopatra, it really does not look great on these coins. Uh, so it's an interesting kind of propaganda. But yeah, they're, they're producing their own kind of propaganda. And then you've also got Octavian, who's coming after her because she can now be the target.
45:07 Speaker 01 Um, he, she can be the bat that he's going to use to beat Antony to death. And so he really drums up the fact that this is a foreigner. This is a woman in political power. This is against everything Rome stands for.
45:22 Speaker 02 Yeah, it kind of hits all of those notes that Romans are perpetually afraid of. Um, foreigners and women. I mean, that's basically it. Rome cannot handle that either of those things.
45:34 Speaker 01 Especially if they have power.
45:35 Liv Albert? Both so horrifying, horrifying.
45:37 Speaker 02 Yeah. Uh, how did it even happen?
45:42 Speaker 01 And because Antony really is like, I'm all in.
45:46 Speaker 02 And everyone's like, wow, you really emasculated yourself, bro. Uh, that's kind of like the Roman take on everything. As soon as a woman is involved in a powerful sense. Um, they, they just kind of turn into that sort of like misogynistic kind of phraseology. And part of our issue, um, when thinking about Cleopatra and the way that she's portrayed in the source material is that Octavian. Ends up winning this war. And all of the sources then, uh, written from that point onwards, come with his kind of, sort of approval tacitly. You wanna keep that guy happy. And that then be, really cements Cleopatra in this negative light as this seductress.
46:30 Speaker 02 And this person who cannot be controlled and she's able to turn men against their own country, you know? And the idea that, uh, Antony's masculinity has been completely stripped away in his willingness to do anything that she asks. As far as the Romans are concerned, this is like the worst thing that could possibly happen to a guy. And, and so Cleopatra has to be the one to blame.
46:53 Liv Albert? It's always woman's fault. If we know anything from my podcast, it's, it's always the woman's fault.
46:57 Speaker 01 Absolutely. And, and this would be, this would always be interesting for you because obviously I'm sure the Aeneid is something that's attracted your attention, you know, quite a bit.
47:04 Liv Albert? But a reminder to my listeners who have listened to my 12 part over a whole year covering of the Aeneid. Um, Octavian is Augustus. So that's Octavian is his name before he takes the role of emperor and then he is Augustus. So every time, uh, we're talking about Octavian here, that is the same man that I have complained about in the Aeneid.
47:28 Speaker 01 Yeah, exactly. And the Aeneid, the Aeneid could really be seen to be telling this kind of a story because it's all about, you know, this Trojan prince. Who falls into a passionate love affair with an African queen.
47:39 Liv Albert? Yeah.
47:40 Speaker 01 The difference being that unlike Antony, he does his duty. He does what he's supposed to. He leaves her. He leaves her. And it's like, whatever dude, throw yourself onto a pile, I see if I can.
47:51 Speaker 02 Why won't you talk to me? I came all the way to the underworld.
47:55 Liv Albert? Poor Dino.
47:55 Speaker 01 Yeah. So that it, all this propaganda that's coming out, uh, you know, during and after Cleopatra's, um. You know, final sha- like showdown and during Augustus's reign, it, it is very clearly sending this message that Antony did not do. The proper masculine Roman thing.
48:16 Speaker 02 Yeah, and we see this coming through in a lot of the sources that are close to this period in time. So one of the ones that I looked at in the lead up to this chat today was Harses' Odes, Book One Thirty Seven, which is looking at Cleopatra, and it's just, it's all negative. Um, he really throws her to the dogs in that poem. He was like, this is a great victory. Now it's time to drink. We've gone down there. We've conquered everything. The witch is dead. It's all this kind of like, all the negativity all bound up in one single poem. And you're just like, wow, Rome, really? Thanks a lot.
48:53 Liv Albert? Lovely place.
48:55 Speaker 01 Yeah, and I think, I think this is important. It's an important moment to note as well that when you look at the things that happened up until Actium, you can see how Cleopatra probably wasn't super concerned about siding with Antony over Octavian. Uh, I mean, Antony was really the one who presented himself to her as the opportunity. So I'm not saying that she actually had a choice and she's like, I'll take this one. But Antony doesn't seem like a stupid choice because he does have a political career behind him that's, you know, relatively solid. I mean, like, he's not the most amazing person you've ever met, but it's relatively solid.
49:29 Speaker 02 He has the more solid military reputation for sure. Out of the two of them, he's the safer bet. He's the one that's campaigned for a long time with Caesar. He has that sort of, the older, elder statesman quality about him. Octavian is a real-
49:44 Speaker 01 Which matters in Rome, yeah.
49:45 Speaker 02 Yeah, Octavian is a real upstart and nobody knows anything about him, really. He's nineteen when Caesar is murdered. So he's really-
49:54 Speaker 01 So younger than Cleopatra, yeah.
49:55 Speaker 02 Yeah, he's an unknown quantity, really. And so for her to pick Antony is really reasonable.
50:01 Speaker 01 Yeah.
50:01 Speaker 02 Um, and yeah, as you say, it's not until we get into the Battle of Actium in thirty one, where things take a really disastrous turn, that it becomes clear that maybe Antony doesn't have this uh, in the bag, in the way that she thought he might have.
50:17 Speaker 01 No, and there's, there's a huge amount of debate about exactly what happened during that battle because Cleopatra leaves during the battle. I mean, Antony's Roman supporters weren't really happy at her being there at all. And her being involved in the planning of this final campaign, but she puts her foot down and is like, guys, I'm putting up the money, I'm staying. But she leaves partway through the battle.
50:40 Speaker 02 Hmm.
50:41 Speaker 01 And Antony follows her. And this is still one of those, I think, difficult to figure out.
50:47 Speaker 02 Yeah, because we're in the realm of sort of like naval tactics at this point.
50:51 Speaker 01 Yeah.
50:51 Speaker 02 And it's gonna be, I think it's gonna be always difficult for us to know what was happening there. Because it seems like um these things can change pretty quickly at sea.
51:02 Speaker 01 Hmm.
51:02 Speaker 02 And also, if you're on a ship as part of the battle, your ability to read what is happening in that battle is pretty limited.
51:09 Speaker 01 Mm hmm.
51:10 Speaker 02 And it seems like, for whatever reason, she's decided that it's it's a prudent idea to pull out. And at that point, Antony has also has seen her leave and has been like, okay, we need to pull out as well. It's not clear whether they were gonna lose the battle and that was a good strategic move for them, or whether they left too soon. And that ended up ensuring the loss.
51:32 Speaker 01 Yeah.
51:33 Speaker 02 That's not clear.
51:34 Speaker 01 Yeah, but certainly, once that happens, Antony has effectively lost all credibility in his Roman supporters' eyes.
51:43 Speaker 02 Yeah, and there were a whole bunch of senators that did come down to Egypt. Um and came to Antony prior to this, and they're like, we're we're with you. Uh we think Octavian's gone too far. Um he's not behaving in a Roman way, he's setting things up in a way that we think is dangerous. And he, Antony leans into that, but Actium doesn't go well. And that defeat is kind of crucial for everything from that point onwards.
52:10 Speaker 01 Yeah, and so Antony and Cleopatra do have some time left to spend together and they.
52:17 Speaker 02 Make love.
52:18 Speaker 01 Yeah, they they do they do make the most of it. They. They have a lot of parties, you know, they enjoy their time remaining to them. I can only think, although there's no evidence about this, that Cleopatra, knowing full well what Octavian would want to do with her. Once he comes, you you know, he'd want to put her in a triumph, just like Caesar had done with her sister Aes in a way. I I can only imagine that Cleopatra was already prepared not to go down that path.
52:46 Speaker 02 Yeah, uh, we're not really, again,
52:48 Speaker 01 We can't be sure.
52:49 Speaker 02 That's one of those things that we can't really be sure about because this leads into one of those great uh sort of mythological moments about Cleopatra as well, which is the death by snake bite.
52:58 Speaker 01 Yeah.
52:58 Speaker 02 Which absolutely cannot be verified.
53:00 Speaker 01 No.
53:00 Speaker 02 Uh, we know that there are snakes in Egypt. That's true. Um, how long it would take you to die and how that death would happen? And how prepared you'd have to be to make that work is another thing. Um, we're just not sure.
53:15 Speaker 01 No.
53:16 Speaker 02 And and Antony gets, he goes first, um, so he commits suicide, um, when it seems like this is gonna go Octavian's way. And Cleopatra holds out and it seems like maybe she thinks that there might be some options for negotiation here. And it's worth finding out what they are. And when it becomes clear that that's not the case, she also commits suicide.
53:38 Speaker 01 Yeah, I think she was prepared for that. I I think she always had that as like an option.
53:43 Speaker 02 Yeah, and we get some interesting sort of like uh stories around this that, um, and some of which are sort of put into later films as well, where uh the Romans try to negotiate with her through a door. Um, she's locked in a pretty secure chamber, uh, and while she is discussing it with somebody through the door, one of the other Romans comes around the back way, um, and sneaks in, stuff like that. Those kinds of stories happen. And so like, okay, well, her chances of setting up the snake situation, that's all a bit tenuous.
54:16 Liv Albert? Seems like would be a lot of work for something that she could have done in a much less difficult and troubling way.
54:23 Speaker 02 Yeah, yeah. And the other thing that she could have done, uh, which would have involved snakes, is drinking the venom.
54:30 Speaker 01 Hmm.
54:30 Speaker 02 Which would have been potentially a lot easier.
54:33 Speaker 01 That's scary.
54:34 Liv Albert? It's horrifying. It's all horrifying.
54:36 Speaker 01 Yeah.
54:36 Speaker 02 Rather than encouraging the snake to bite you, I mean, come on.
54:39 Speaker 01 Yeah.
54:40 Liv Albert? Yeah.
54:41 Speaker 01 Yeah, but Octavian, of course, wins the day. She commits suicide and is the last pharaoh to rule Egypt because Octavian makes Egypt his special personal playground, which it shall remain for pretty much all of the Juliusercordians.
54:53 Speaker 02 Yeah, he decides to make it a annex province of Rome and puts it under his personal control. Um, doesn't institute any, uh, king to sit in there, gets rid of all the children.
55:06 Speaker 01 Yes, well, well.
55:08 Speaker 02 Well.
55:08 Speaker 01 The, the, the children with, the children that Cleopatra and Antony had, those second tier children, I bet they're feeling pretty happy that they were second tier now. Yeah, because they, they aren't killed.
55:19 Speaker 02 They're taken back to Rome.
55:20 Speaker 01 They're taken back to Rome and they're actually raised by Octavia.
55:25 Speaker 02 Whoa, really?
55:26 Speaker 01 Yeah, and, and they're subsequently married off into various.
55:30 Speaker 02 The things that woman does for Antony, he does not appreciate Octavia.
55:34 Speaker 01 Yeah, they, they become, they become like royals in other parts of the world eventually, you know, when they're old enough. But the one that he's really concerned about, of course, is Caesarion. Caesarion does not escape with his life.
55:47 Speaker 02 Caesarion represents a threat to everything that Octavian has now built about his own reputation, um, as being the heir to Caesar. So that kid's got to go.
55:56 Speaker 01 Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. And so Octavian gets to kind of cement his version of things. And the accounts that we have that, we have, we have the poetry, as you mentioned, from, you know, Virgil, Propertius, Horace. You know, we've got all of that coming out of Augustus's own reign and lifetime. But then we've also got people like Plutarch and Appian who are writing later. And we've got bits and pieces about Antony and Cleopatra's affair in particular. Caesar, it does come up, but it's definitely more Antony and Cleopatra that get the, the most attention. You've got a little bit on her in, in sources like Suetonius as well, in the biographies he writes of Julius Caesar. And, and these sorts of source materials are, you know, inspire artworks, they inspire plays by Shakespeare.
56:39 Speaker 01 And they become the, the base for a lot of 19th century work about Cleopatra and then eventually films about Cleopatra. And so when we get into. To the twentieth century and the twenty first century, the Cleopatra that we see tends to be the other, the foreigner, the woman, you know, we we really focus on those qualities, the seductress. All those things that were elements of the propaganda that Octavian crafted are really what we tend to see in our popular culture of Cleopatra. When there is actually a rival source tradition that comes out of the Arabic world. It it is a bit, it is problematic in its own sense in that it comes much, much later, what I mean, what we have surviving anyway.
57:23 Speaker 01 But it has some really fascinating details and it tends to focus less on her appearance and her relationships with men. It focuses much more on what she actually did in her lifetime. Um, so public works for her kingdom, uh, things that she wrote, works of science and and medicine and and also beauty. Um, but yeah, it it's it's really interesting that there is such a different tradition out there and yet it really hasn't made much impact so far in the popular culture and the way that we represent Cleopatra these days.
57:52 Speaker 02 And even the sources that we have that are more contemporaneous from when she's alive, they get as much traction. So we do have a text called the Alexandrian War, which we don't know the author of, but it's tends to be connected with Caesar in his writings. And it goes into details which are political and we're looking at the way that she's maneuvering. And it just doesn't tend to get that much airtime. The thing that has happened is that we get, we hit Shakespeare and Shakespeare seems to have really enjoyed Plutarch. Uh, and that's, that's one of his key sources. And so everything from that point takes that sort of second century Greek uh, moralistic biography tradition and really runs with it.
58:34 Speaker 02 And once we're into that sort of thinking about it in terms of morality and the framing of things as character flaws rather than just like things that are happening in people's lives. Then we start to see that Shakespeare really plays off that and it it becomes its own sort of beast when it gets into film and also opera.
58:53 Speaker 01 Hmm. And then, of course, with popular culture, that is blended with whatever's happening at the time.
59:00 Speaker 02 Yeah, and I think it would be, yeah, we wouldn't want to overlook like the way in which Cleopatra has an ambiguity about her ethnicity, which has really meant that she accrues a lot of popularity from different sections of society who want a piece of her. And the fairest way to put it is that we just don't know. So she has that flexibility um in ambiguity because we don't know who her mother is for sure. We also don't know who her father's mother was. So there's enough ambiguity in the lineage that she sort of can be taken as a Macedonian Greek, she can be claimed as an Egyptian, she can be claimed as an African. And she has this sort of plurality about her because we don't know.
59:45 Speaker 02 She has this sort of fascination, I think, when we're thinking about women who are powerful and how they get there and what they do with that power when they have it.
59:55 Speaker 01 And I think there's something to be said as well for our cultures. We we tend to be drawn back to stories where women failing in this sort of tragic, romantic way is a very appealing story to us. If we if we look at the tradition of biopics um as as a genre throughout the twentieth century, when film becomes a medium, stories about women with power tend to be stories about women who fail, who try and have it all, or you know, whatever. They have a, there's something that interferes with their career.
1:00:27 Speaker 02 Being able to have it all, like, that's the that's the setup for the failures.
1:00:31 Speaker 01 Yeah, and and even with royalty, it's always like a choice between, do I do my duty? Or do I give give myself over to my heart? And we we tend to like those sorts of stories and Cleopatra fits really nicely into that kind of a storytelling tradition.
1:00:48 Speaker 02 Even though it seems that like when you look at it, she's really just making strategic decision after strategic decision.
1:00:53 Speaker 01 Totally.
1:00:53 Speaker 02 And and it's really perhaps the men around her who are maybe not making as strategic decisions as they could. And it works out in her favor. And I think that's interesting as well because I don't think her story is a narrative of failure. Obviously, it's tragic that she is the last pharaoh of Egypt, but that's kind of not her fault.
1:01:17 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:01:17 Speaker 02 I don't see that as any, you know, you can't hold her responsible for that.
1:01:21 Liv Albert? No, she seems to have been, I mean, certainly doing her best to not be the last Pharaoh of Egypt, but also just, yeah, the level of strategy and power and just intelligence that she brought to everything. This has been the most fascinating thing I've ever sat through, but also, like, I mean, there's just so little in the focus on her when it comes to the things she accomplished beyond the men she slept with and what happened afterwards.
1:01:49 Speaker 01 Yeah, and when you, when you look at what we've actually got documented evidence for, Cleopatra only slept with two men in her entire life, and she died when she was about our age.
1:01:58 Liv Albert? Wow.
1:02:00 Speaker 01 Yeah, and so, I mean, it's not to say that she, you know, she was a queen, it's not to say that she didn't have other lovers, but in terms of what we can actually document, this idea of her as some great seductress, she had two,
1:02:12 Liv Albert? Two dudes.
1:02:13 Speaker 01 pretty solid, long-term relationships with two men. They just happened to be some of the most famous Roman men to ever have lived. It's just a coincidence, and just, just like they happened to sleep with one of the most famous Egyptian queens to ever have lived. It's just one of those things.
1:02:27 Liv Albert? Well, and it's political strategy, right? It's not like, yeah, you know, it's all about keeping yourself alive and in power and...
1:02:35 Speaker 01 No, but it is, and it is, it is a fascination and what, and what she can offer in a visual medium, I think, as well. Like, the, one of the earliest silent films to be made about Cleopatra starred an actress called Thetabara, and Thetabara was a studio-made confection. She, she's literally where we get the term vamp from, okay? Because she, she, she played, she, she was kind of typecast as these, as these characters who were women whose seduction powers were so great that they would literally suck the life force from men. That's what a vamp is, it's short for vampire. Uh, and, and it's because she played those sorts of roles that they thought she'd be perfect to play the role of Cleopatra. Her name was meant to be an anagram of Arab death.
1:03:18 Speaker 01 And there were all sorts of studio, she was, she was just, she was just a Jewish girl from like the Midwest and they created this whole story about how she was born in the eyes of the Sphinx, suckled on the milk of, it was, it was crazy. Yeah. But they created this, this very, you know, this very dangerous, sexually appealing studio star. And then she was the one they wanted to play Cleopatra.
1:03:43 Speaker 02 And I think this is, this feeds into the really problematic way that our sort of like underlying patriarchal narratives tend to shape the storytelling as well. Because it's kind of in a way dismissing her strategy and her capacity for politics to be able to sort of like chalk her up as like, oh, well, you know, she's the one who's like with all the Romans, you know? Because it means that you don't have to deal with the hard reality that she was fighting tooth and nail, one for power. She overcame all of her siblings. That was a fight of some magnitude. It involved wars. It involved her having to kill all of
1:04:25 Speaker 02 her siblings and finding ways to do away with siblings afterwards as well. And then holding on tooth and nail for power in whatever way seemed reasonable with the options that she had in front of her at the time.
1:04:40 Speaker 01 Yeah. And I think the other thing is as well, there have been, I think, attempts to maybe try and shift that a little bit, like the 1963 Cleopatra. I actually really like that. I know, I know it's got a bad rap and I know that not, not everybody thinks Elizabeth Taylor is a great Cleopatra. I actually love it. And I think it's because initially, that was actually, I mean, coming in the sixties, it's obviously, you know, women are starting to get a bit more freedom, you know, it's, it's on the, on the verge of second wave feminism. And originally, it was meant to be two films, Caesar and Cleopatra and Antony and Cleopatra. And there was going to be a lot more room to show Cleopatra off in, in that format. She was meant to come across as a political visionary. They really
1:05:22 Speaker 01 wanted to open that side of her up. And I think you can still see remnants of that, like when she has Moments with Caesar where they really are envisioning this world that they're going to rule over together. But unfortunately, it was such a mess. The film, the script wasn't finished when they started filming. It was, you know, there was all sorts of drama, obviously with Richard Burton and Elizabeth Taylor getting together in real life. And the, their relationship was exceptionally violent. You know, there were times when they had to take time out of filming because Elizabeth Taylor had been injured in domestic violence incidents. She'd already almost died anyway and had to had a tracheotomy when they were, back when they were filming in England. There was all this drama going on. And of course Burton and Taylor were both married, so there was other spouses to deal with.
1:06:06 Speaker 01 So all of that kind of ended up taking over a little bit and it ended up costing a huge amount of money. It cost about forty four million dollars in, in that time. Of which Elizabeth, yeah, of which Elizabeth Taylor got about half for her salary and her living expenses while she was there. Um, and so it was the most astronomical film and the expense meant that it really couldn't earn back what, you know. It, it, it kind of did okay, but it could never earn a massive profit because it just cost so much to make. And they ended up just sort of chopping it into one film. And a lot of Anthony's story and a lot of Cleopatra's story ended up therefore on the cutting room floor. Cause it was like nine hours and they, they had to cut it down to like two and a half. So.
1:06:49 Liv Albert? That's really interesting. I haven't actually seen it and I probably should.
1:06:53 Speaker 01 It's great.
1:06:53 Speaker 02 Oh, you should see it. Yeah, yeah. Would recommend, but also like have snacks because it's like, even now it's about four hours long.
1:07:01 Speaker 01 Yeah, yeah, they've, they've, they've restored it. They've restored it. So yeah, but there is a fantastic scene, which is my absolute favorite. I'm sorry, I am going to reenact it.
1:07:11 Speaker 01 When, when Cleopatra and Anthony have been apart for some time and he's run off and married Octavia. They show this as being devastating for Cleopatra, which look, who knows, it might have been, you never know. But when he comes back to ask for her help again, she is standing there, you know, she's, well, she's sitting there, you know, all her Egyptian pharaonic regalia looking amazing. Cause I don't care what anyone says, Elizabeth Taylor is gorgeous. And he makes his request and she says, you will kneel.
1:07:40 Speaker 01 I will what? On your knees. You dare ask a representative of the Roman Empire to kneel before you? I asked it of Julius Caesar. I demanded of you.
1:07:55 Speaker 01 The dialogue, it's amazing. You probably better be putting the actual scene in there than me reenacting, but it's just amazing. I love it. You've convinced me. And of course, we don't know where the Gal Gadot film's gonna go. That will be absolutely fascinating. Yeah.
1:08:08 Liv Albert? It'll be interesting.
1:08:10 Speaker 01 What her future holds, nobody knows. There's so many, so many interpretations of her. I mean, Katy Perry's done her. Beyonce's done her.
1:08:18 Liv Albert? Well, honestly, I mean, I've just been sitting in awe throughout this whole thing. I'm so glad I asked you to do this and that me just saying, give me a rundown on Cleopatra in general, produces like a wildly fascinating hour about Cleopatra. So thank you both so much for doing this. This is such a perfect episode for Women's Month, but also just generally dipping into really important historical women, which I so rarely get to do. So thank you so much.
1:08:46 Speaker 02 Thank you.
1:08:47 Speaker 01 Always happy to talk Cleopatra.
1:08:48 Liv Albert? Oh, so glad. Um, so why don't we tell everyone where they can listen to your podcast, where you do this about so much more of Roman history?
1:08:58 Speaker 02 Oh, yes. Well, you can find The Partial Historians wherever you listen to excellent podcasts. And we're also on a variety of social media. We're on Twitter, we're on Instagram, we're on Facebook.
1:09:11 Speaker 01 Although Facebook is a little bit problematic.
1:09:13 Speaker 02 Yeah, maybe don't come to our Facebook because we're in Australia and Facebook is, uh, trying to do some things with legislation, um, in terms of our government at the moment. And, uh, we got locked out basically of our Facebook for like a week. Um, yeah, cause apparently Roman history is still newsworthy, um, according to Facebook.
1:09:33 Liv Albert? So you got called a news organization and that got in trouble?
1:09:36 Speaker 02 We did.
1:09:37 Liv Albert? Oh, my gosh.
1:09:38 Speaker 02 We did. Um, so, you know, I mean, old news is good news.
1:09:42 Speaker 01 This just in from 41 BCE. Antony has met Cleopatra at Tarsus.
1:09:48 Speaker 02 He blushes.
1:09:50 Speaker 01 But we're also very excited. We've also just started launching some artwork, which we're making in collaboration with Bridget Clark, which is going to be about some pretty fascinating women from the ancient world, probably including Cleopatra at some point. So yeah.
1:10:05 Speaker 02 Watch that space.
1:10:06 Speaker 01 If you like having some interesting ancient artwork on your walls, do come and check it out.
1:10:10 Liv Albert? Yes, I, this is recording a couple of weeks before this episode will actually come out, but I just reposted your Instagram of that because I saw the Agrippina, and that's amazing. That's so exciting that you're doing that. So I'll be posting more of it.
1:10:23 Speaker 01 Thank you. Agrippina was our first casualty, but Cleopatra is definitely in our sights.
1:10:31 Speaker 02 Well, thank you so much for having us as well.
1:10:33 Liv Albert? Oh, thank you. This has been so wonderful. So everyone, please go subscribe to The Partial Historians and follow them everywhere for more just women podcasting, but women podcasting about badass women in history and mythology. I think we all need more of it.
1:10:49 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:11:06 Liv Albert? Nerds, thank you as always for listening. We will be back on Friday with the final reading episode of the Thebaid, and then I gotta, I think we might be reading the Odyssey next. TBD, I'll tell you the news. It's gonna be completely different from the other one, so don't worry. I'm still looking into it. But Friday, the new Thebaid, and we're gonna, oh, I almost forgot. I almost, this is live. This is live. I almost forgot. Please submit your questions for a Q and A episode. Mikael and I would love to do one for the end of the year, like we always do, but we need fresh questions. So get them in either by text, or now we have the voice notes available. Either way, go to mythsbaby.com/questions and send some stuff in. Questions, prompts, queries, who the hell knows? Just gave me
1:11:50 Liv Albert? stuff to talk about. I'm excited. Thank you. Let's talk about Myth Baby is written, produced by me, Liv Albert. Mikaela Pengu is the Hermes to my Olympians, my incredible producer. The podcast is part of the Memory Collective Podcast Network, of which The Partial Historians are also part, because obviously they are. They're delightful. Select music by Luke Chaos.
1:12:10 Liv Albert? That's, that's all, I think. I don't know. Um, happy winter. Except to Australians, I guess. Um, happy summer to you. That's not as funny as I wanted it to be. I am Liv, and I love this shit.
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Previous Conversations: Cleopatra Selene... A Queen her Mother Would Be Proud Of w/ Dr Jane Draycott Next Liv Reads Statius: The Thebaid (Final) Page updated October 31, 2026 · transcript and summary are machine-generated