33. To Catch a Fugitive

Who is likelier to get to the fugitive first? When a fugitive is on the run, it’s not only the police he has to worry about. A bounty hunter could be coming after him, too.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Stephen J. Dubner?

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• 0:42Stephen J. Dubner?

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• 1:25Stephen J. Dubner?

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• 2:05Stephen J. Dubner?

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• 2:31Stephen J. Dubner?

  So if I'm a criminal and I jump bail and I have to choose between having the cops bring me in for trial or bounty hunter, I definitely want to put that job in the hands of the police.

• 2:41Speaker 01

  Bounty hunters are much more likely to get their man. I like to say that the bounty hunters are the true long arm of the law.

• 2:50Stephen J. Dubner?

  I know what you're thinking. Bounty hunters? Those motorcycle vigilantes with their glam rock hair and their big biceps and tattoos? Those are the guys who have a higher capture rate than the police? Not exactly, says Alex Tabarrok. He's an economist at George Mason University and co-author of a paper that looks at the commercial bail bond industry.

• 3:13Speaker 01

  So after we'd published this article, some of the bounty hunters actually got in touch with me. And I said, hey, you know, maybe we should, maybe I should be a little bit of a roguish kind of character. And I asked if I could go out with them, actually on the streets and actually learn outside of my office what bounty hunting was all about.

• 3:33Stephen J. Dubner?

  Tabarrok went off with a bounty hunter named Dennis in Baltimore. He learned that bounty hunting is all about business. No high-speed chases, no gun battles. As Dennis made clear, you don't want to rough up the fugitives or their families because, well, here, Tabarrok will tell you.

• 3:49Speaker 01

  The bounty hunters, they're very polite. You know, these guys are not breaking down doors at all. And I asked, you know, I asked Dennis why this is. And he says, it's because we do rely a lot on repeat business. You know, he tells me about one of his customers who told him quite proudly that we've been coming to this firm for three generations. It's just awful, really.

• 4:22Speaker 02

  From APM, American Public Media, and WNYC, this is Freakonomics Radio. Today, to catch a fugitive, who's better, police or bounty hunters? Here's your host, Stephen Dubner.

• 4:38Stephen J. Dubner?

  You may have heard recently about the trouble caused by a certain well-heeled gentleman who used to run the International Monetary Fund. Dominique Strauss-Kahn, a Frenchman, allegedly committed a sexual assault against a housekeeper in his Manhattan hotel and, shortly afterward, boarded a flight home to France. But the police plucked him off the plane and arrested him. He's since been charged and now awaits trial. But he's not in jail. Instead, he's out on bail: a $1 million cash payment and a $5 million bond. Now, that money is meant to guarantee that Strauss-Kahn will show up at his trial. And it's hard to imagine that he could flee. He's under court-ordered 24-hour surveillance.

• 5:22Stephen J. Dubner?

  But if he did somehow manage to scram, we're talking bounty hunter bingo, baby. Here's how commercial bail bonds work. Let's say you're arrested for a crime and the judge releases you on a $5,000 bail. Now, you don't have the money, so you go to your local bail bondsman. You fill out an application that asks for all kinds of information: your previous arrests, your employer, union membership, make and model of your car, even your kids' names and where they go to school. Now, the bondsman agrees to pay the court that $5,000 in return for a 10% fee. So you pay him $500 and you sign a contract promising to show up in court.

• 6:07Stephen J. Dubner?

  Now, if you're a no-show on your court date, it's the bondsman's $5,000 that's at risk. The judge gives him 90 days to find you, and that's when your bondsman picks up the phone, calls the bounty hunter. Under current law, bounty hunters have a lot of latitude. They can break into a fugitive's home without a warrant. They can chase suspects across state lines without worrying about extradition proceedings. They can search and seize without constraint. Now, there are some limits. Bounty hunters can't use unnecessary force, and they're liable if they break into the wrong home. But for some people, that's not nearly enough. Four states, Wisconsin, Oregon, Illinois, and Kentucky,

• 6:52Stephen J. Dubner?

  have banned commercial bail bonds. And the US is, in fact, one of only two countries in the world that allow this system. The other is the Philippines. One former Supreme Court justice called the bail bond industry "odorous." But Alex Tabarrok, the economist, he doesn't see it that way, especially if you look at the economics of the criminal justice system.

• 7:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, I was shocked when I first saw this data. 25% of defendants, felony defendants, simply fail to show up on the day of their trial. It was a huge number. I was flabbergasted. So this means that the judge's time is wasted, the lawyer's time is wasted, the prosecutor's time is wasted. The police, they have to go out and try and recapture this guy. It's a big cost to the criminal justice system. And moreover, justice delayed is justice denied. If people can repeatedly flaunt the justice system by failing to show up and extend the time,

• 7:55Speaker 01

  which means that witnesses become harder to find, the more time it takes to get to the trial, people get, evidence gets lost, paperwork gets lost, things get shuffled around, witnesses disappear, you know, they move, whatever. This really is a cost to the legal system.

• 8:16Stephen J. Dubner?

  Tabarrok and a colleague, Eric Heland, analyzed data on 36,000 felony defendants in the US.

• 8:23Speaker 01

  And we thought it would be interesting to see whether people who are released on commercial bail, whether they're more likely to show up. And if they flee, are they more likely to be recaptured? Because... If you're out on commercial bail and you flee, it's the bail bondsman who's out the money. The bail bondsman has put up your $5,000 bail. And if you don't show up, he loses the $5,000. So this is a classic case of incentives. Do incentives work? Do the bail bondsman have the right incentives to go after these guys with the bounty hunters? That's where the bounty hunters come in and bring them back to justice.

• 9:04Stephen J. Dubner?

  Tabarrok found that people who are released on commercial bail, who know that a bounty hunter will be after them if they skip court, that they're substantially more likely to show up than someone who's released on his own recognizance or on government bail. In that case, you typically pay a deposit of just a few hundred dollars. But fugitives behave differently when they know a bounty hunter may be after them. And it's not only the bounty hunter they're worried about.

• 9:27Speaker 01

  The way a lot of this works is they get somebody to co-sign on the bond, a family member or a friend to co-sign on the bond. So this means that if the defendant skips town, that not only is the bail bondsman out, but potentially so is the friend who has co-signed on the bond or the family member who has co-signed on the bond. And I asked again Dennis about this. And he says, "I deal with a lot of mean people in my business. These guys, they're not afraid of me, they're not afraid of the police, but they're still afraid of their mother. So if I get the mother to co-sign on the bond, and this guy knows that the mother might lose her house if he doesn't show up for trial, he's going to show up for trial."

• 10:11Stephen J. Dubner?

  So the fugitives have an incentive to not run away. But if they do, the bounty hunters really have an incentive. Unlike a police officer who's on salary, a bounty hunter only gets paid if he brings a fugitive in. And the data prove it. Tabarrok found that bounty hunters are 50% more likely than the police to get their man. Wow, so if I'm a taxpayer, which I happen to be, Then I have to be thinking, wow, so we've got a system of law and order. We try to find the bad guys. We give them their day, their day in court. But while they're waiting for that day in court, they're often out on bail, free to roam around.

• 10:53Stephen J. Dubner?

  And then if I, as a taxpayer, want to make sure that my dollars are well spent and that the bad guys are being brought back in for trial, I like the private, I like the private industry take on this more than the government take on this a lot, don't I?

• 11:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, you really do because not only do the bail bondsman work at no taxpayer expense, there's a little bit of a justice involved in that the guys who flee, they're paying their own pursuers. I kind of like that. It's from the, these defendants themselves, the money comes for the bounty hunters to go after them. And it's even a little bit better than that because the bounty hunters, they're good, but they don't always get their man. You know, sometimes the guy flees town and the bounty hunters, the bail bondsman, they usually have about 90 to 180 days. So the judge says, if this guy, you've put up, the bounty hunter has put up $5,000 of

• 11:49Speaker 01

  bail, and the judge says, this guy hasn't showed up, he tells the bail bondsman, you've got 90 to 180 days, it varies by state, to bring this guy to justice. If you don't bring him to justice within that period of time, that bail is forfeit. So when that bail is forfeit, that actually goes to the taxpayer. So the taxpayer can actually make some money. And this is not a huge chunk of change, but it's millions of dollars in different states. And at the federal level, forfeit bonds actually go to a crime victim fund. So that's kind of a nice, also a nice piece of justice to this, I think.

• 12:31Speaker 01

  Coming up, the man who wrote the book on bounty hunting.

• 12:35Speaker 03

  By 85, Robert De Niro's manager saw the book, bought it, and then made the movie Midnight Run based on the book.

• 12:57Stephen J. Dubner?

  Freakonomics Radio, sponsored by Granola. You know that moment when a meeting ends and someone says, let's circle back on this next week, and everyone nods, but no one writes it down? Then next week rolls around and it's radio silence? That's why Granola exists. Granola is an AI-powered notepad built for the way real people actually meet. You take rough notes like you normally would, and in the background, Granola securely transcribes the meeting. Then it turns everything into clean, structured, actually useful notes when the meeting ends. And the best part? Granola works through your device's audio, which means it integrates seamlessly into the video conferencing tools you already use. No setup, no awkward bots. It's just your normal meeting with superpowers. If meetings are eating up your day, Granola is a no-brainer. You can try it totally free.

• 13:42Stephen J. Dubner?

  Just head to granola.ai/freakonomics. That's granola.ai/freakonomics to get your time back. Try it for free at granola.ai/freakonomics. Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by Quince. You know those pieces in your closet that you find yourself wearing on repeat? The sweater that goes with everything? The perfect pair of pants? Or the tea you somehow always reach for first? Those are the pieces that make getting dressed easy, and that's what Quince does best. Quince focuses on high-quality wardrobe staples made with premium materials like 100% Mongolian cashmere, organic cotton, and merino wool.

• 14:24Stephen J. Dubner?

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• 15:04Stephen J. Dubner?

  Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by PNC Bank. Boring. Great word, bad rep. Yet, time and time again, here at Freakonomics, we find that when something culture-changing happens, boring things like calculations and careful planning are usually behind it. Which begs the question, why not apply it to other aspects of life? Like banking, for example. Well, PNC Bank did, since its inception, proving time and again that the best banking strategy isn't the exciting type, but the steady, reliable, definitely-not-YOLO type. PNC Bank. Brilliantly boring since 1865. Brilliantly boring since 1865 is a registered mark of the PNC Financial Services Group, Inc. PNC Bank, National Association, Member FDIC.

• 15:53Speaker 02

  From WNYC and APM, American Public Media, this is Freakonomics Radio. Here's your host, Stephen Dubner.

• 16:04Speaker 04

  I don't know what you're up to, but I'm working. Oh, working? Me too. I heard you got kicked off the force. What I do is I hunt down idiots who jump bail. You are a bounty hunter?

• 16:14Speaker 05

  Yep. And my chances of paying to say this, I gotta take you to jail.

• 16:21Speaker 03

  Well, all right, my name is Bob Burton. I'm in California. I run a large organization composed of bounty hunters. We operate throughout the United States, coast to coast, border to border. We made over 30,000 arrests last year of individuals who failed to live up to the bail bond contract.

• 16:43Stephen J. Dubner?

  Bob Burton runs the United States Coalition of Bail Recovery Agents, or US Cobra, based in Santa Barbara. It's a network of about 1,500 bounty hunters, or bail enforcement agents, as he calls them.

• 16:55Speaker 03

  Also, 400 of my agents are women, because women make very good bounty huntresses. There's an old saying that God created men and women, but Samuel Colt made us equal.

• 17:08Stephen J. Dubner?

  Burton's been doing this for quite a while.

• 17:10Speaker 03

  Well, my career as a bounty hunter began when I was an insurance broker in California in the late, early, early 80s. A friend of mine, Bob Brown, started a magazine called Soldier of Fortune Magazine. Oh, yeah. Out of Boulder, Colorado. We were buddies and he asked me to go down El Salvador to cover the war which was starting down there. I was saturated with a need for adrenaline, like I had never felt before. The adrenaline of the war, dealing with Green Berets, enemy, incoming fire, beautiful women in the city, rogue scoundrel, newsmen from all over the world. I couldn't be an insurance broker anymore, so I went into bounty hunting.

• 17:55Speaker 03

  And my luck was that I knew some bounty hunters. They took me into the business and taught me, and I wanted a book. I could not find any book, so it turned out I wrote the book Bounty Hunter, which turned out to be the first book ever written on the subject, unbeknownst to me. And then one step further, by 85, Robert De Niro's manager saw the book, bought it, and then made the movie Midnight Run based on the book.

• 18:24Speaker 06

  Wait, wait, it's a freight train. I can't do this. I can't do this.

• 18:32Stephen J. Dubner?

  Now, Bob, there are some academics who've studied the data on inmates who jump bail to see whether bounty hunters are more efficient, more effective at bringing them in than police, have found that the answer is yes. I'm guessing this finding doesn't really surprise you too much, does it?

• 18:49Speaker 03

  It doesn't, because frankly, we know, we capture about 94 to 96% of everybody that jumps bail.

• 18:57Stephen J. Dubner?

  Actually, a Department of Justice report says that bounty hunters capture 97% of the fugitives they pursue. 97%.

• 19:06Speaker 03

  The NYPD, the LAPD, and the Chicago PD, fugitive details, arrest about 50 to 60% of all wanted individuals.

• 19:20Speaker 03

  Why? They only work a 40-hour week. They get paid regardless.

• 19:24Stephen J. Dubner?

  Now, it's not that the police are slacking off. It's just, as Burton points out, that the police and bounty hunters have different incentives and different duties. The police have other cases to pursue, other jobs to do. Sometimes, the police and a bounty hunter will be going after the same fugitive, which can lead to friction.

• 19:44Speaker 03

  Yeah, the police have a 50/50 love-hate relationship with us because we are doing what they do. We get paid more for one arrest than they might make all week. We're rivals with the detective division of that man's area. For instance, every time we pop someone in New York City, the NYPD's detective division, on one hand, okay, one less case, but on the other hand, why the hell those bounty hunters get to them before we did?

• 20:12Stephen J. Dubner?

  A bounty hunter's salary can vary greatly, depending on a lot of factors, especially, of course, the size of the bond. Burton says a typical bounty hunter earns between $48,000 and $65,000 a year, which is pretty much in line with a police officer's salary. Bounty hunters do have to pay for their own equipment, though.

• 20:31Speaker 03

  Well, when you come into the business, first thing you gotta do is buy a good $35, $40 pair of handcuffs. Then you gotta buy a pistol, if you don't already have one, $350 to $500 bucks. You should have a four-door car, ideally a van, where you can transport the prisoner from New York to New Orleans. Because prisoners flee. When they flee, the bondsman's gonna call a bounty hunter in the area, the targeted area, that he's fleeing to. Like, New York agents get calls all the time from Miami, New Orleans, Texas, you name it.

• 21:11Stephen J. Dubner?

  Dog the bounty hunters on TV. I'm guessing that if people watch that show and they come away with an impression of how a bounty hunter acts in his daily business, I'm guessing that's maybe a tiny bit exaggerated.

• 21:33Stephen J. Dubner?

  Can you help me out there?

• 21:35Speaker 03

  It's grossly exaggerated. First of all, no one in the industry acts, or rather, looks like that. We're dealing with cops, judges, district attorneys. We can't look the way he looks. Forget the long hair, you stand out, and it's pure television nonsense the way he looks.

• 21:53Stephen J. Dubner?

  And in addition to the look, though, talk to me about what the work of a bounty hunter is actually like on a daily basis. What do you have to do, and what do you have to do well, to be a good bounty hunter?

• 22:04Speaker 03

  A bounty hunter, a bounty hunter works at 97% boredom, 3% adrenaline. It's sitting in cars, working on the telephone, calling people, trying to find an answer where he would be. You have to be good on the phone as a bounty hunter. You must have phone skills. You must have an ability to talk to street swine and district attorneys and attorneys. The bottom line is, we look for the fugitive and the Judas. Everybody has a Judas in their life. An ex-girlfriend might betray him because he ran off with someone else. A rival crack dealer will betray him because he wants that guy out of the

• 22:47Speaker 03

  system because he's competition. There's always someone that will betray you.

• 22:53Stephen J. Dubner?

  Now, Bob, just between you and me, if I was a bounty hunter looking for you, who's your Judas?

• 22:59Speaker 03

  Good question. There's probably 15 surfer chicks here at the beach in Santa Barbara.

• 23:07Stephen J. Dubner?

  Just 15? A guy like you? I'm surprised it's only 15.

• 23:10Speaker 03

  See, in my business, AARP means An American Ready to Party, okay? We have, I mean, one of the oldest bounty hunters in the United States lives back east, and he has to be 79 or 80.

• 23:24Stephen J. Dubner?

  How old are you, Bob?

• 23:26Speaker 03

  Huh?

• 23:27Stephen J. Dubner?

  How old are you, Bob?

• 23:28Speaker 03

  I'm 72. I look 41, of course.

• 23:34Stephen J. Dubner?

  Especially on the radio.

• 23:41Speaker 02

  Freakonomics Radio is produced by WNYC, APM American Public Media, and Dubner Productions. Our producers include Susie Lechtenberg, Chris Neary, Diana Nguyen, and Colin Campbell. This episode was mixed by Dylan Keith. You can subscribe to a podcast of this program and read more Freakonomics at Freakonomics.com.

• 24:10Stephen J. Dubner?

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• 24:41Stephen J. Dubner?

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• 25:19Speaker 07

  Hey, it's Kelly Ripa, and if you don't know, I have a podcast where I get to say whatever I want. Hold on, let me get a shovel and a body bag. I envision doing a podcast with the conversations that happen in my dressing room, off-camera, where people feel free to talk. No hair, no makeup, this is my kind of job. Only Kelly Ripa can ask me these questions. I'm flipping the script and saying what's really on my mind.

• 25:42Speaker 08

  We're seeing a different side of you. It's a little bit more honest.

• 25:46Speaker 07

  When the cameras go off, the real Get my hair done over here. Hey. This is an off-camera podcast, so it doesn't even matter. It's unfiltered conversations and unexpected confessions.

• 25:58Speaker 09

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• 26:01Speaker 07

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• 26:08Speaker 09

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• 26:09Speaker 07

  Let's talk off-camera with me, Kelly Ripa. You just put that in the universe. Listen and follow wherever you get your podcasts.

• 26:19Speaker 10

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