From Bit Parts to Two Emmy Nods: Jeff Hiller’s Long Road to Success

Comedian and actor Jeff Hiller has managed to land roles on two of the buzziest TV shows of the last year. He just earned his second Emmy nomination for a guest role in “Pluribus,” and he seems poised for an even bigger role in the second season of the comedy horror “Widow’s Bay.” His success builds on his Emmy-winning breakout performance in HBO’s “Somebody Somewhere” as Joel, the compassionate best friend to series star Bridget Everett’s character, Sam. Kara and Jeff talk about why he thinks people are drawn to shows like “Pluribus” and “Widow’s Bay,” why Hollywood rarely tells stories about the middle class anymore, and the role faith has played in his life. They also talk about why it’s still hard to land roles, despite Jeff's Emmy success. Questions? Comments? Email us at [email protected] or find us on YouTube, Instagram, TikTok, Threads, and Bluesky @onwithkaraswisher. Clips courtesy of HBO and Apple TV. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  At the end of the day, I look like I look. And you can't plug me into just anything. Like, no one's going to cast me as a romantic lead. And I don't need to play the romantic lead. A lot of times, those are really boring parts.

• 0:26Kara Swisher?

  Hi, everyone. From New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network, this is On with Kara Swisher, and I'm Kara Swisher. My guest today is actor and comedian Jeff Hiller. After years of playing bit roles as a stereotypical, sassy gay man, Hiller finally got his big break in his mid-40s. It came from the HBO comedy drama Somebody Somewhere. Hiller played Joel, the compassionate best friend to series star Bridget Everett's character Sam.

• 0:50Speaker 00

  Do you remember that time you came to my house? And we did Zumba? It's like the only time you ever did it with me. And you were sitting in the garage and you said, you said, you don't know if I should get on this ride? Because you weren't sure if you were friendship material?

• 1:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, it rings a bell.

• 1:11Speaker 00

  I think about that all the time. God, I'm glad I didn't listen to you.

• 1:17Kara Swisher?

  The role earned Hiller his first Emmy Award last year for Outstanding Supporting Actor in a Comedy Series. He's up for another Emmy this year. It's for his guest appearance in the Apple TV show Pluribus, which is one of my favorite shows. He has a recurring role in another big Apple TV show right now, Widows Bay, which was recently picked up for a second season. I really like character actors in general. I think, actually, Widows Bay is rife with amazing character actors. And I just find them to be the most, I think, important and poignant people that don't get attention. And they're often really stick with you long after their roles go away. So let's get to my conversation with Jeff Hiller. Our expert question comes from actor and producer Ali Wentworth, whom Jeff has worked with in the past.

• 2:02Kara Swisher?

  She cast him in her sitcom Nightcap. Don't go anywhere.

• 2:14Speaker 03

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• 2:46Speaker 04

  I'm Ina Garten, and each week on Happy Hour, I invite new and old friends for a drink and a fun conversation at my kitchen table in New York City. On this week's episode, I'm joined by Julia Louis-Dreyfus. We talk all about attending a fashion show in Paris together, throwing dinner parties, and making her Broadway debut in other desert cities. New episodes of Happy Hour are available every Wednesday. You can watch on YouTube or listen wherever you get your podcasts. Cheers.

• 3:24Kara Swisher?

  Jeff, thank you for coming on On.

• 3:27Speaker 00

  Thank you for having me on On.

• 3:29Kara Swisher?

  On On, see, that's how I did it. That's how it works here. So congratulations on your second Emmy nomination. You've talked about how shocking your first nomination was last year after decades of just trying to make a living. As an actor, how did number two compare? Are you one of those happy to be nominated types? Or are you just like, give me that fucking Emmy right now?

• 3:51Speaker 00

  Okay, I know it's cheesy. And I know this answer is like, oh, come on, you're lying. But I swear to you, I truly believe that I am just happy to be in the conversation at all. Because I got to tell you, like, for a long, long time, I was like, you know, temping and teaching improv.

• 4:09Kara Swisher?

  Sure.

• 4:10Speaker 00

  And just the idea that I get to be an actor at all is such a thrill for me. Also, it's like, I'm pretty sure I'm not going to win this one. But I thought I wasn't going to win the last one either. So I don't know. But I am just sort of like-

• 4:23Kara Swisher?

  Wait, who's your biggest comp? You're up against Coleman Domingo again.

• 4:27Speaker 00

  Coleman Domingo, yeah. Jonathan Pryce. I mean, you know, it's like, and it's also like, my role in Pluribus was, you know, it was just one scene. It was a very good scene.

• 4:35Kara Swisher?

  It was a very good scene. It was an excellent scene. I was like, what happened? What happened to him? It's such a spectacular show. Talk about that idea of being an actor. I know a lot of actors, and it's really difficult to keep going in general.

• 4:51Speaker 00

  I know. And you do sort of think like, like, last year when I won an Emmy, I was like, oh, everything's, everything's fine now. It's all going to be fine. But it's like, no, it's still slog. You still got to like, you know, audition and, you know, try and fit your weird peg into a square hole. So, yeah, it's always hard. And, but it's a lot easier once you have a little bit of success.

• 5:19Kara Swisher?

  Yes, absolutely. Emmy award-winning. So you managed to land roles in two of the big breakout TV shows that are getting a lot of talk, which is Pluribus and Widows Bay. And your Emmy nomination for Pluribus, as you just noted, is for a guest appearance. Your character Larry has to break it to Ray, Sehorn's character, a romance novelist named Carol that her late wife didn't like her books. The idea behind the show is that everyone on Earth, except Carol and a few others, are now part of the hive mind. They share one mind. Talk a little bit about it, because I think it's all about AI. Because, of course, I'm a tech person. I'm like, this is, this is AI for all of us. Because it's so sycophantic. It's got all the characteristics. I know the author has said, no, it is not. But I don't care.

• 6:02Speaker 00

  That's what art is, right?

• 6:03Kara Swisher?

  Yes, exactly. Talk about this character.

• 6:06Speaker 00

  Well, when I auditioned, I did, you know, they were very secretive about what the, you know, the hook of the show was. And so they told me, you know, just pretend that you really love her. You're her father. You're talking about her dead mother. I wasn't a part of a hive mind talking about her dead wife. So it was a little confusing. And at one point, he said something. And I said, you mean like, I know her like, like I really know her? Or I know her like I science-fiction-y kind of know her? And he's like, science-fiction-y.

• 6:38Kara Swisher?

  Right, right, right, right.

• 6:39Speaker 00

  So, you know, the audition was complicated. And then when I got there, I went through, you know, a fitting. And they gave me this weird, all these different bicycle uniforms. And I was like, what is this show? And it wasn't until Ray texted me to say, hey, would you like to come over to my place on Sunday? Her one day off, you know, she just, that Saturday, had been in LA because she was in the Bad Boys movie, and she needed to be there for the premiere. And so on her one day off from this incredibly intense shoot, she invited me over to her house. And the writer, Alison Tatlock, and the directors at Neflix sat down and just talked me through this thing, which you just explained actually quite-

• 7:20Kara Swisher?

  Thank you.

• 7:20Speaker 00

  Very quickly and efficiently. And, but of course, I had like, so many more questions. And the big takeaway was that my love for her is genuine. And they really wanted me to have genuine love for her. And so that was really my sort of guidepost.

• 7:36Speaker 05

  Do you like my books?

• 7:38Speaker 00

  Oh, we love your books.

• 7:40Speaker 05

  What do you love about them?

• 7:42Speaker 00

  Everything. Your books are an expression of you. And we love you.

• 7:48Speaker 05

  Need you to be more specific. Character arcs, plot turns.

• 7:53Speaker 00

  Yes, yes. We love the character arcs and the plot turns.

• 7:58Speaker 05

  Which ones?

• 7:59Speaker 00

  All of them. So it was a difficult acting exercise, but it was great. And the director, Sette, she shot it like a play. And it's a seven and a half minute scene. And Alison was like, this never happens in TV. Let's just let it breathe and enjoy it. And it was, Ray and I kind of nerded out like, you know, actors-

• 8:21Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, you get to talk.

• 8:23Speaker 00

  Yeah, exactly. You get to talk.

• 8:25Kara Swisher?

  But you had to shift the conception of the character on the spot, right? Because you're speaking for everyone in some way.

• 8:31Speaker 00

  Exactly. And that was the big takeaway, is that we all feel this way. But it was also just like, knowing all of the words. Like, even though you all have the same mind, if you have a lisp, you'll still have a lisp post thing. If you have a limp, you'll still have a limp, that kind of a thing. So I didn't have to worry about like, I don't know, matching pitch or timber or anything. But just this idea of, in that moment, we were so in love with her because it was kind of before she had done bad things to us.

• 8:58Kara Swisher?

  Right, right, before she had. And will continue to do so, it seems like, from the last episode.

• 9:03Speaker 00

  That last episode, yeah.

• 9:05Kara Swisher?

  That was the finest end to a season. That, I thought it was perfect. It was actually perfect. But standing out in just a short role is really remarkable, actually. I still remember that scene between the two. There were several scenes like that, including when she talks about wanting to have an atom bomb at the same time. So how do you go about making that character your own while also making him part of the hive?

• 9:28Speaker 00

  I mean, it was, it was super complicated. And there was, I mean, there was just so many questions about like, but am I allowed to be this way or that way? And they were very patient. But because I was just sort of landing and immediately shooting as a guest star is want to do, the big thing was about just feeling, showing how much I love her and how this information I know will disappoint her, but I can't lie. And so I have to very gently tell her this truth that I don't think she's going to want to hear. And in fact, she doesn't want to hear. And I love that. And I love that-

• 10:12Speaker 00

  That idea of finding out your partner isn't wild about your work is so juicy.

• 10:23Kara Swisher?

  Yeah.

• 10:23Speaker 00

  There's that movie, You Hurt My Feelings, that Nicole Holfstetter movie that's so good about that exact topic.

• 10:30Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 10:31Speaker 00

  So I was really into that concept and also into this concept of this hive mind loving her and wanting to protect her, but not being able to lie.

• 10:41Kara Swisher?

  Not, not tell the truth about what's happening, if asked, if asked.

• 10:45Speaker 00

  If asked.

• 10:45Kara Swisher?

  There's a lot of omission by these people.

• 10:47Speaker 00

  Yeah, like by omission.

• 10:48Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, no, which is what AI does, by the way, FYI, they omit things.

• 10:53Speaker 00

  Well, he, I mean, Vince Gilligan has said he's very, very much like there was no AI made.

• 10:58Kara Swisher?

  No, I don't think it's made in it. I think he's depicted it actually quite beautifully, without maybe meaning to, but it's the idea of sycophancy, truthfulness, but not, but sort of anodyne at the same time. It's never that interesting. You know, it's, it's always sort of mid, you know, there's nothing that's not mid that doesn't come out of AI in some fashion. Anyway, you did, you did not do a mid job. So one of the other ones, you seem to like have all these character actors. You, you have a recurring role on the show Widow's Bay. It's mostly a horror show about people who live on this mysterious island in New England, but in a lot of ways, it's also a workplace comedy. And you play a character who's sort of a functionary in the government. It's not clear what your job is, but you

• 11:41Kara Swisher?

  work for the mayor. You are good friends with the show's creator, Katie Dipold. She also was a writer and co-producer for another great workplace comedy, Parks and Rec. Talk about the comedy role on Widow's Bay and why it's important in a horror show like this.

• 11:58Speaker 00

  Well, the thing about Katie Dipold is that this is, I mean, it's, it's very interesting that it's Pluribus and Widow's Bay. They're both on Apple and they're both by these very specific minds, these minds that are very unlike anyone else. And because I've known Katie for 24 years, I know her quite well. And the one thing I know about her is that she loves comedy writing and she loves horror movies and, and she loves them and she forces it upon us.

• 12:36Kara Swisher?

  I could see nine movies in that, the slasher episode.

• 12:39Speaker 00

  Yes, exactly. And she's so versed in all of that. And so when I got the script, I was like, oh my God, this is both funny and scary. And that's so impressive. It's very difficult to do. Lots of people have tried, but a lot of times it doesn't work, the threading, that needle of, you know, whatever, walking that line. How many metaphors can I throw at this? Trying to balance that is really difficult. And so like I sent in an audition. I didn't tell her I sent in an audition because I thought, oh, that'll be weird. She's my friend. I don't want to.

• 13:12Kara Swisher?

  I know. That's why you have friends, but go ahead.

• 13:15Speaker 00

  Oh shit, you just changed my life.

• 13:20Speaker 00

  She saw it anyway and, and said, yeah, yeah, this was great. It's not going to work at all. You'd have to do it really differently.

• 13:28Kara Swisher?

  Right, right, right.

• 13:29Speaker 00

  Because I was a little broad.

• 13:31Kara Swisher?

  This Dale character.

• 13:31Speaker 00

  Yes, exactly. And she also said, it's a very tiny role. I completely get it if you don't want to do it, but I'd love to have you there, but it's a very small role. He's going to die in episode, whatever. I can't remember what episode it was. And I said, I would love to do it because I would love to get health insurance.

• 13:50Kara Swisher?

  Right, right. Oh, good, good reason.

• 13:52Speaker 00

  And so I did it. And, and then it turned out to be this great show. They, they let me improvise a little bit here and there. And I, my role gradually got a little bit bigger until they finally said, do you mind if we don't kill you off? Which that happened even before I was nominated for an Emmy. So I gotta say.

• 14:08Kara Swisher?

  Now they can't kill you off. I won't give away any spoilers, but your character, Dale, seems poised to have a much bigger role in the second season. He's the only one who knows the island's dark secret, of which there are many, by the way. How do you, where do you see yourself headed with Dale? Dale is a minor role. I was like, where is he? And then you're sitting in a meeting. I was watching and it's like, the lady with the cigarettes, real good. Like she has a lot of good lines.

• 14:31Speaker 00

  Dale Dickey, oh, the best.

• 14:33Kara Swisher?

  Has she been waiting forever for that role? I feel like this is the perfect role for this woman.

• 14:39Speaker 00

  It really is. And, and I was, she got nominated for an Emmy too.

• 14:42Kara Swisher?

  She should.

• 14:43Speaker 00

  And it was, you know, so exciting, but like she also has had this incredible career. She was like the daytime hooker on My Name Is Earl and she, she was in some of those Del Shore movies and.

• 14:54Kara Swisher?

  She's always been around.

• 14:55Speaker 00

  Winter's Bone. She was so great. She had this amazing tender movie called Love Song that was, oh, so great. I mean, she is like my dream character actor.

• 15:05Kara Swisher?

  She's amazing. So where do you see Dale going in this season?

• 15:10Speaker 00

  I mean, I could give you, they haven't told me a thing and they're not contractually obligated to bring me back. So I might just be like on the ferry and dying, but.

• 15:22Kara Swisher?

  Wait, were you born there? Can you leave? I don't know.

• 15:25Speaker 00

  I guess we don't know yet.

• 15:26Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, we don't know.

• 15:27Speaker 00

  I don't know. Like maybe I could leave. I don't know. Maybe I'm just on the ferry and I don't even get the dying scene.

• 15:32Kara Swisher?

  Right, that's true.

• 15:35Speaker 00

  But I.

• 15:35Kara Swisher?

  But you know the secret.

• 15:37Speaker 00

  Yeah. I think that fact that he knows this secret is, is going to play into something. And I really hope that he, I would love to see him get some sort of a horror movie episode that, that parodies a horror movie that we, my dream, I said this already on a podcast, sorry, I'm repeating.

• 15:53Kara Swisher?

  That's okay, please.

• 15:54Speaker 00

  My dream is that it would be a Rosemary's Baby situation.

• 15:57Kara Swisher?

  Oh.

• 15:58Speaker 00

  He has somebody in his house.

• 15:59Kara Swisher?

  It's okay if you said another podcast, we're bigger. So.

• 16:03Speaker 00

  That is true, actually.

• 16:04Kara Swisher?

  So why Rosemary's Baby?

• 16:08Speaker 00

  Because it's campy and, and the idea that like this like lame, you know, like spacey guy who doesn't even know that he should buy premium when he's a DJ goes home and he's like cruel to his twin brother.

• 16:21Kara Swisher?

  Right, right, right, right.

• 16:22Speaker 00

  Feeding him a dead bird or whatever.

• 16:24Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, yeah, that's true. You could do that. I was thinking you were the Ruth.

• 16:28Speaker 00

  Oh, Ruth Gordon.

• 16:29Kara Swisher?

  Gordon, yeah.

• 16:30Speaker 00

  It's just Tannis Ruth, Rosemary. Yeah. I'll do that too.

• 16:35Kara Swisher?

  Well done, well done. You could also be pregnant. You could be pregnant. How would you describe it for people who haven't seen it? I would call it, I called it aggressively quirky to someone the other day.

• 16:48Speaker 00

  Aggressively? If you don't like our quirky, I'll hit you.

• 16:51Kara Swisher?

  Daddy's coming home, you know, that, the games, come on.

• 16:54Speaker 00

  It's true. I mean, it's, it's its very own world. And I think the, the big thing is, is it tries to be genuinely hilarious and genuinely scary. And I think it, I think it's successful at that.

• 17:08Kara Swisher?

  So you're in two different shows, Pluribus and this, and although they're similar, they have a similar vibe. Why do you think people are liking these shows? Right? They also like Ride or Die, which is kind of ridiculous and fun, you know? But what, and please, I recommend it to everybody. It's so ridiculous and fantastic.

• 17:29Speaker 00

  I haven't seen it yet. I can't wait now.

• 17:31Kara Swisher?

  A lot of Hannah Waddington kicking ass, so it's fine.

• 17:33Speaker 00

  Oh, I do love her.

• 17:35Kara Swisher?

  Yeah. But what, what do you think is resonating with people right now with these kind of unusual severances in that sort of genre?

• 17:43Speaker 00

  Yes. Well, I think it's, these are dark worlds, but it's not like our dark world.

• 17:50Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 17:52Speaker 00

  You know, it's like, we can figure it out. We can pull apart the, the lore and figure out this mystery, whereas we don't have that kind of control in our own life because there's, there's, I mean, every time you open the New York Times, it's like, what?

• 18:05Kara Swisher?

  Yeah.

• 18:06Speaker 00

  That happened?

• 18:07Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. It'd be really nice to be able to drive someone in a boat out to the periphery and then they just explode. That would be great.

• 18:17Speaker 00

  It really would be.

• 18:19Kara Swisher?

  We'll be back in a minute.

• 18:29Speaker 03

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• 18:59Kara Swisher?

  I'm Kara Swisher and I like people who say the quiet part out loud. In fact, I love it. That's Tiger Sisters, a new podcast that recently joined the Vox Media Podcast Network. Cherie Brook-Lu and Jean Lu are real sisters who built their careers at LinkedIn and Goldman Sachs. On their weekly podcast, they're giving the next generation practical tips on how to get ahead, how to write emails people actually answer, how to make your LinkedIn profile stand out, and how to keep learning as an adult. It's straight talk about money, career, and relationships every Monday. Follow Tiger Sisters wherever you get your podcasts.

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• 20:19Kara Swisher?

  Let's talk a little bit about the industry and your break in it. Before your recent successes, you had a lot of bit parts as sort of the stereotypical sassy gay man. In your memoir that came out last year, you write, quote, "If you're obviously gay but not hot, your roles are limited. You just play the bitchy gay." Now you have a more established career in Emmy. Talk a little bit about this because I assume you get more range now, or perhaps not.

• 20:47Speaker 00

  Somewhat, yeah. I think I get to audition for things that I wouldn't have been able to audition for before.

• 20:55Speaker 00

  But I think, you know, at the end of the day, I look like I look. And you can't plug me into just anything. Like, no one's gonna cast me as a romantic lead. And I don't need to play the romantic lead. A lot of times, those are really boring parts. But, you know, it takes a while to convince other people that you would successfully play something that you haven't successfully played previously.

• 21:22Kara Swisher?

  Now, you told The Hollywood Reporter back in May that despite winning this Emmy last year, you hadn't worked at all in 2026. Is that still the case?

• 21:29Speaker 00

  Yeah, I regret saying that. It makes me sound so pitiful, but yeah.

• 21:34Speaker 00

  I was talking about the industry, not specifically about me, but

• 21:37Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 21:38Speaker 00

  That is still true, yes.

• 21:39Kara Swisher?

  No, a lot of friends of mine who are well-known have had a hard time.

• 21:43Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's just, it's the, you know, all of the, and all of these conglomerations that are merging with other conglomerations. I know that that's maybe up in the air now, but I just feel like, or, you know, the latest one, not, not all of them. But I think that there's just a lot less content happening, especially post-strike. I think people realize, like, the streaming method isn't really a way to make money. And so they don't, they don't know the way forward yet. And, and so that means just a lot less work. And I'm so grateful that Witters Bay got a second season and that hopefully they've written themselves into a corner to bring me back. But yeah, it's been, it's been surprisingly dry.

• 22:24Kara Swisher?

  Talk a little bit from an actress point of view. I write a lot about the consolidation from a business point of view and where it's going. But what is it like for actors like yourself when you're looking at these? Right now, the big story is the Paramount Warner Brothers discovery. A federal judge did put it on hold. We'll see where it goes from there. But it's, these are happening. These are happening. And then on top of that, there's AI that people are talking about. Well, it hasn't really gone anywhere yet so far. Tilly Norwood is not killing it.

• 22:54Speaker 00

  I love her, though. She's so great.

• 22:55Kara Swisher?

  She is. She's really good. She's so interesting.

• 22:58Speaker 00

  So interesting.

• 23:00Kara Swisher?

  Do you, how do you, how do you think about it as an actor now, just as a working actor? Because a lot of people hear from, you know, the studios or the production companies or what does Netflix think and this and that. How do you, as an actor, think about what's happening?

• 23:18Speaker 00

  I mean, just because it affects me, you know, rather directly, especially as someone who's, you know, you know, Nicole Kidman is probably okay.

• 23:29Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, she's still in the theater and no one will go with her in those ads, if you notice.

• 23:34Speaker 00

  It's heartbreaking, but it's good in a place like that.

• 23:36Kara Swisher?

  I know. She's always alone in the theater. I was like, could you not have a friend? You can't take to, anyway.

• 23:41Speaker 00

  She doesn't want anybody to distract from her sparkly suit.

• 23:45Speaker 00

  It's true. She is kind of sad and like, not even, anyway. I once saw The Purge all by myself in a movie theater and I thought, this is cool.

• 23:54Kara Swisher?

  That's a movie to go to alone, actually.

• 23:56Speaker 00

  Exactly.

• 23:57Kara Swisher?

  Yeah.

• 23:59Speaker 00

  So it's, I find it, you know, kind of scary. And when we were striking in 2023, you know, AI was a big part of that. And I worry because I think what you're saying right now is true. Like, it is very mid currently. I don't know that in the future, people won't, you know, we eat Taco Bell. We're okay with mid.

• 24:23Kara Swisher?

  Right, right, right. That people won't accept it. You mean audiences?

• 24:26Speaker 00

  Yes, exactly. And, and, you know, that's a little scary. And, you know, kind of makes me feel like a, I don't know, coal miner or something where I'm like, oh, no. Am I in this dying industry?

• 24:39Kara Swisher?

  Right, right. And when you look at the mergers, now mergers have happened before. They've happened lots of times, but how does it actually impact working actors like yourself? What are you all talking about?

• 24:51Speaker 00

  Well, the big thing is that across the board, no matter if you have won an award or not, people are saying, there's no money. There's no money. We cannot pay you anything more than the bare minimum that the union says we're allowed to pay you. And a lot of times that bare minimum, you know, you can't support yourself off of that because a lot of, like, character actors like myself, we're working three, four days a year. Not, not now, like now I have Witters Bay or what have you, but like, most of the time, three or four days of a year of work is good, is like a great year for just a normal actor.

• 25:35Speaker 00

  And you would often, if you got a commercial or something, that the residuals would last you for the entire year and you might not have to have a temp job for that year. And that's just not, that's just not a possibility at all. And on top of that, of course, I know I'm saying stuff that everybody's heard a million times, but like, rent is so high and we all have to live in these major cities where the rent is even higher than the rent in other cities. And so it just makes it so that you can't be, you can just never get ahead financially. You can never feel safe financially. And it's terrifying. I mean, I, like, even just like pilot season, there used to be a pilot season. And even if you got a pilot and that pilot didn't get picked up,

• 26:20Speaker 00

  you made enough money from that pilot that you would be able to not work for a long time. And it's like, you get six episodes and the next one, we're gonna film in two years.

• 26:31Speaker 00

  Where it used to be 22 episodes every year.

• 26:33Kara Swisher?

  Right, yeah. It's funny that, you know, even winning an Emmy doesn't insulate you from this, but I have a lot of friends that won Emmys and it's, they say the exact same thing and you're sort of surprised. One of my friends just got a regular broadcast show and she was like, it's 22 episodes. I don't know what to do, right? Rather than six, six to eight.

• 26:51Speaker 00

  Dreamy.

• 26:52Kara Swisher?

  Dreamy.

• 26:53Speaker 00

  Sexy.

• 26:54Kara Swisher?

  Get yourself on Law and Order or some, one of those.

• 26:56Speaker 00

  I know, I want to.

• 26:57Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, you have to be. You'd be good as a quirky.

• 27:01Speaker 00

  I did play a computer tech on Law and Order Criminal Intent.

• 27:04Kara Swisher?

  Did you? Okay.

• 27:05Speaker 00

  Yeah, but I got cast, and I was a recurring role, but I got cast in the last season.

• 27:09Kara Swisher?

  Oh, oh, the last one.

• 27:10Speaker 00

  I shot my first episode and the next day they announced it was canceled.

• 27:13Kara Swisher?

  Right, right. Not all Law and Orders go to the moon. No, it's true. But we are very happy for Mariska. So we are, she's deserved.

• 27:22Speaker 00

  I love her.

• 27:23Kara Swisher?

  I know. She's great. I like your whole jam right now, what's happening with her. But you have talked about finding success in acting later in your life and late 40s. It was the subhead of your memoir, Actress of a Certain Age, My 20 Year Trail to Overnight Success, which I love the title.

• 27:40Kara Swisher?

  Talk about that. Talk about, and what advice would you give to someone who's in the same position you were in five or six years ago?

• 27:48Speaker 00

  Well, my advice is, show business isn't fair. I definitely don't subscribe to the idea that if I did it, you can too. Like, I got lucky. I got so lucky. I'm fully aware that I got lucky. And I often think, like, if somebody's like, it's not worth it for me anymore. I want to quit. I'm like, I support you. Go get an apartment with laundry in it. How fun.

• 28:13Kara Swisher?

  HVAC. That's the way to go.

• 28:15Speaker 00

  Well, you don't think there'll be robots doing that eventually or no?

• 28:18Kara Swisher?

  Eventually, but you'll be dead by that time, so don't worry about it.

• 28:20Speaker 00

  Okay, good. Okay, maybe I'll go get into HVAC.

• 28:25Speaker 00

  Yeah, so I think my advice would be two things. One, don't compare yourself to other actors because it's always, it always ends up crappy. And also, you never know what's happening beyond the deadline article. And two, the other thing would be, even if you're not getting paid or getting awards, your art is just as valuable as anyone else's. Because I think, so, for so often, I thought like, oh, I wasn't a good actor because I wasn't full-time. And I think that's kind of bullshit.

• 28:59Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, I know, I know. I recently interviewed Marc Maron. He's talked about getting his big break later in life, too, which was via podcasting. In fact, he said he didn't think he'd be able to handle the fame if he found it earlier in his life. How do you think about that?

• 29:12Speaker 00

  I have heard him talk about that. And, you know, he also had to get sober and stuff like that. And I think I could have handled it fine.

• 29:21Speaker 00

  I'm pretty boring.

• 29:24Kara Swisher?

  But the big break you had was an HBO show, Somebody Somewhere, which is a wonderful show. You play Joel, a compassionate best friend to Bridget Everett's character Sam. Last year, as we noted, you won the Emmy for Outstanding Supporting Actor in a Comedy Series. The show ended in 2024, but talk about that character of Joel and how you envisioned it. Because it's a very touching relationship. I mean, it's a relationship show, obviously, but that's the key relationship in it.

• 29:53Speaker 00

  Right. So when I got the role, when I read the pilot, I was so shocked because he talks about being involved in the church and he talks about being obsessed with Bridget and about being like not very popular in high school. And I just kept thinking like, oh, this is just like me because I grew up in the church and I was obsessed with actual Bridget. And I remember I took this class from Marcy Phillips, who's the casting for ABC, and it was a class on how to become a series regular. And she was like, you need to find a role that's kind of like you. And I thought like, they don't write roles like me.

• 30:34Kara Swisher?

  Right, they don't. No, because this is a very specific middle-class life in a small Midwest town. It's about grief, it's about chosen family quite a bit, and they don't have fancy jobs or live in big, modern houses. Joel drives an old Buick Le Sabre and dreams of owning a Vitamix. Do you think Hollywood's moved away from telling those kind of stories? They used to be quite prevalent, if you think about it.

• 30:57Speaker 00

  Oh, you think? I feel like it's such an anomaly that we even got that show on the air.

• 31:01Kara Swisher?

  Well, Roseanne, there was a bunch before she lost her mind. Yeah, there was a bunch. There were a bunch.

• 31:05Speaker 00

  I guess there's Roseanne, yeah, and like the middle and things like that. That's true. They were all, though, they were all very much family sitcoms. And I don't know of any other show that's so focused on chosen family as this one is.

• 31:18Kara Swisher?

  Well, you'd have to say Friends, even if you don't like that show.

• 31:21Speaker 00

  Oh, I guess you're right. That is kind of about chosen family, isn't it?

• 31:24Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, it's a bunch of straight people in New York with a fantastic apartment, but that's different, but it's still.

• 31:28Speaker 00

  Let's face it, what this show really did that was different is it cast fuggos, right? It cast people that aren't gorgeous.

• 31:35Kara Swisher?

  Okay.

• 31:36Speaker 00

  And I think it was so rare that they did that. And it's, they definitely aren't doing it now, I know that for a fact.

• 31:45Kara Swisher?

  Yeah.

• 31:46Speaker 00

  And I think it's just, that's kind of, there's like a, I was gonna say, there's a beauty in that. But there is, there's like a, um, representation matters. And it's nice to see people who aren't a double zero and have, you know.

• 32:06Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, and they're solidly middle-class, they're not, and they're not rich.

• 32:09Speaker 00

  They're not rich. They're not, yeah, and their problems are relatable. And in the same way that like, people, I mean, people love Widows Bay and Pluribus Way more than they loved Somebody Somewhere. But I think in the same way that like, seeing this world that is so different than ours is kind of a relief, I think there is also a truth in seeing a world that is attainable.

• 32:33Kara Swisher?

  Right.

• 32:33Speaker 00

  Is actually a really beautiful thing to be able to see and have.

• 32:37Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, the show also challenges viewers' expectations of what life in the rural Midwest can look like, right? We have images of that that are probably out of date. Joel is an out gay man who goes to church and is surrounded by other queer people and straight people who love him. It's really interesting to, as you say, someone like yourself. It does challenge our perceptions of what people's lives are like. I mean, I have a cousin who lives in a rural area and goes to church, he's gay, you know what I mean? A very similar kind of.

• 33:08Speaker 00

  Yeah. I see, and that's, that was my thing too, is like, I knew that person so well, even if I wasn't exactly that person, because I don't go to church every Sunday and I don't live in the Midwest, I live in New York City, but I still, I knew, I don't know, 10 versions of that person from my time growing up in Texas. And I went to school at a Lutheran college in Seguin, Texas, and I knew so many out, or like, you know, glass closet out, gay folks, both men and women, who found their community in their church, but I'd never seen it portrayed in media, ever, not even in a novel.

• 33:50Speaker 00

  And it also, it wasn't playing it like, his Christianity was a joke and it wasn't, it didn't just fall into this idea of like, what the news paints Christians as in general, which, you know, there are definitely those people who are sort of right-wing, but it's clear that Joel is a part of a progressive church, they're handing out toiletry kits in one episode, they're blessing animals in another one. These are, this is not the easy depiction of a, of a church that's just, you know, kill the gays.

• 34:23Kara Swisher?

  Right, yeah, no, and it also challenges the idea that all gay people who live outside of cities live in fear and in the closet.

• 34:28Speaker 00

  Right.

• 34:29Kara Swisher?

  Which is interesting. I was just, this week in Traverse City, visiting Pete Buttigieg and Chasten.

• 34:34Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 34:35Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, it was interesting. Of course, they just had a very terrible thing happen around their kids, but it was really interesting. And I was like, why do you live here? Like, why aren't you in, where you go? You know what I mean? It was really, and they were sort of like, Kara, oh, stop being an asshole, Kara, essentially. But it was, you know, they, they love it there because they have kids and it's better for kids and they have family around them. And they definitely deal with, you know, a lot of things they don't love there. At the same time, they have a lot of support, too. And so it's sort of this, you know, one would assume the minute you step off a plane and somewhere like that, you're going to get a very different, you know, or fearful as gay person.

• 35:17Speaker 00

  Right, and I think that, I don't think the show was trying to say that like, there's never like a microaggressions or, like, certainly misgendering happens all the time, but that happens all the time in New York for Murray. So, yeah, but I do think, like, so many, when I would do press for it, people would be like, tell us about this fantasy, this fantasy of queer people in Kansas. We went to Kansas, Bridget's actually from Manhattan, Kansas, and we went there and we met, I mean, you know, we met a lot of, mostly straight folks, but there were like a lot of queer folks that came out, you know, of course, they came out specifically for

• 35:56Speaker 00

  the queer show, but there are even like a shop that's owned there by a trans man. And I guess what I'm trying to say is, that is the case, you know? People live where people live.

• 36:15Kara Swisher?

  We'll be back in a minute.

• 36:23Speaker 03

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• 36:53Kara Swisher?

  I wanted to zero in a little bit to talk about faith in the church, because in your memoir, you write really beautifully about church and growing up in it. It was a place of belonging for you and an escape from bullying you experienced. In school, you even considered becoming a pastor, which was really interesting. You still can, by the way. This Emmy thing doesn't work out.

• 37:12Speaker 00

  HVAC or pastor? One of the two.

• 37:14Kara Swisher?

  Probably better, although you'd make more money with HVACs. Your relation with religion got more complicated as you got older and came out and you no longer tend. Talk a little bit about that, because that was a thing of moving part of the book, I found. I grew up Catholic and I haven't been in a Catholic church since I was confirmed, which I did for my grandmother. But now with this new pope, I'm like, I kind of like it, like.

• 37:38Speaker 00

  I know.

• 37:39Kara Swisher?

  It draws you in, in a way. Talk a little bit about your views and how you think about it now.

• 37:45Speaker 00

  Well, see, when I was growing up, the church was the place that helped poor people, specifically poor people. And, and it was all about.

• 37:57Speaker 00

  It was about helping people. It wasn't just poor people, I guess, but it was about helping people who were in need. It was a huge part of it, like the first and foremost part of it. It wasn't about rules or saying you're living in a way that is not right. It was about helping people. We had the food bank, we had the clothing bank, we had, there was a rental assistance program there. And so for me, when I hear church, I think there are so many folks that hear church and they're like, I don't want to have any part of that. But because I grew up in this slightly progressive church, I think of it

• 38:35Speaker 00

  as community and I think of it as being beautifully sacrificial and helpful and kindness. And so I don't have those negative associations with church that a lot of people do. And like you said, this new Pope, even the last Pope was pretty good, too.

• 38:54Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, he was.

• 38:55Speaker 00

  And

• 38:56Kara Swisher?

  He's the pre-Pope for this Pope.

• 38:57Speaker 00

  Pre-Pope. American Pope, making everything cool. But I also feel, you know, I used to know all of these really cool progressive nuns, too. And I worked, I did, after college, I did this, I called it a Christian commune. It's, that's a little tongue in cheek, but where we were actively, you know, boots on the ground, helping folks. And that is the church I choose to believe in, that actively helps people and is good for the world, rather than just this current church that gets all the press, that's about like, just, I don't know, hating on people, just period. I was gonna say, I was gonna list some people, but there's a lot of people.

• 39:42Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, they're focused on James Tellerico this week. So that particular branch of the church, the hate

• 39:47Speaker 00

  It's true. It's gonna lead you into whatever, women's bathrooms or something.

• 39:52Kara Swisher?

  I'm fascinated by how they're using trans and gender. But that said, we're seeing young people return to the church in ways. My son started going to church. I never brought him into a church ever.

• 40:03Speaker 00

  Wow. What kind of

• 40:04Kara Swisher?

  Catholic, Catholic.

• 40:05Speaker 00

  Really?

• 40:06Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, he's now going to, he's going to Eastern Orthodox now. I'm like, no, we're not doing this. We're not doing this. You know, the food is excellent during the festivals, but no. But he can do what he wants.

• 40:17Speaker 00

  They have a lot of Gold Leaf in there. It's pretty.

• 40:20Kara Swisher?

  Do they? I told him I'd go to a service with him, but I think it's community is what he's looking for.

• 40:25Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 40:26Kara Swisher?

  And the positive role that faith can play in a person's life, because we talk a lot about that. And queer people have been building church-like communities forever. It's one of the plot points in somebody, somewhere, actually. But historically, we're born out of exclusion from mainstream society. How do you look at it now? And how do you create spaces without asking people to be someone they're not?

• 40:50Speaker 00

  Well, God, I don't know. It's a great question. I don't know if I have a good answer. I think, well, first of all, I'm not, the one way I'm really not like Joel is I'm not someone who creates spaces for people. I'm a joiner, not a leader, hardcore. But I do think what I have a gift for is I listen. I listen a lot more than I think most, I was gonna say most actors, but I think most people, I think I listen more than most people. And I think that is a gift for creating community is acknowledging the other members of the community. The bar is low.

• 41:27Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, yeah. Are you interested in this push towards the church, you know, the belonging the church can provide and creating those spaces?

• 41:37Speaker 00

  I mean, I get it. Like, it's all about community. And I think community is absolutely necessary. And I think that, I think you just have to be careful that you're finding your community in a space that supports you rather than hurts you. And, because I do feel like I could totally fall for a cult. I have to really be

• 41:57Kara Swisher?

  Oh, wow. Okay.

• 41:58Speaker 00

  I have to really be on the lookout for that.

• 41:59Kara Swisher?

  I think all successful sitcoms are about a family, creating a community of, in some, at Widows Bay, you have your group of weirdos, just like The Office, or something like that, where there's something like that.

• 42:12Speaker 00

  And you're right, you're right. It is all about finding family. And that's what, that's what I think probably life is kind of about, right?

• 42:18Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, in a lot of ways. So every episode, we get a question from an outside expert. Here is yours.

• 42:23Speaker 04

  Hi, I'm Ali Wentworth. And I first met Jeff Hiller when I cast him in my show Nightcap, and he was brilliant. Jeff is the warmest, most insightful, optimistic human being I've ever met. So my question for you, Jeff, is what keeps you up at night? It could be macro, like what's happening around the world. It could be micro, like you have too many mice in your apartment. But what causes Jeff Hiller insomnia?

• 42:54Speaker 00

  Mice in my apartment? Come on, Ali. I mean, I think it depends on the night. But I will say, I sleep pretty well.

• 43:07Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, okay.

• 43:08Speaker 00

  Pretty good at sleeping. I will say, last night, I was up worried about my sister because my sister just had to put her dog down. And I couldn't sleep thinking about that. And I think that's probably, I think if we say macro or micro, I think I do tend to focus on individuals and people hurting. I will, I'm constantly thinking about children in Iran and Palestine, and children in war zones, children or in, I just, I don't know why, I'm not worried about the old ladies. I guess I'm worried about them, too. But

• 43:45Speaker 00

  I, I just think, I do think about kids all the time who are, just by bad luck of being born in a place that's full of turmoil, I think about that a lot.

• 44:01Kara Swisher?

  That is a worthy thing to worry about. That is a worthy thing to worry about.

• 44:04Speaker 00

  I mean, but what does worry get you? You gotta start doing stuff, right?

• 44:07Kara Swisher?

  Well, no, worry's okay. It's okay to be just worried. Yeah, yeah. It means you're alive, actually, which is always

• 44:15Speaker 00

  That's deep, actually, yeah.

• 44:16Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, thank you. So, yeah, I sleep well, too, oddly enough. Like, I'll deal with it tomorrow.

• 44:25Speaker 00

  Yeah, that is sort of, I

• 44:27Kara Swisher?

  Yeah. I'm always like, that asshole. I'm gonna go to sleep now. I recently interviewed the Let Them lady, Mel Robbins. You know her, Let Them. But she has an out. She has let me, which I have to point out to people. She doesn't let them. She lets me.

• 44:43Speaker 00

  Wait, but do you think that the, are you saying?

• 44:47Kara Swisher?

  I think she's saying let them, and it's very appealing. It's like, yes, I'll let it go. But then she has a thing that says let me, which is what is my action gonna be?

• 44:54Speaker 00

  I see.

• 44:55Kara Swisher?

  You see, it's an out. Because let them be an asshole, but let me take a stick and hit them. You see what I mean? So it's the same thing. You're not really letting them, are you? So anyway.

• 45:06Speaker 00

  That's really, that's really where you went, huh?

• 45:08Kara Swisher?

  Yeah.

• 45:09Speaker 00

  Oh, that's interesting. That's not where I would go.

• 45:11Kara Swisher?

  No, really interesting. What would, because I'm a lesbian. This is the problem. I'm Carol. I'm Carolyn.

• 45:18Speaker 00

  You're Carol.

• 45:19Kara Swisher?

  Claribus, atom bomb.

• 45:20Speaker 00

  You're right. And I'm Larry. Yeah.

• 45:21Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, atom bomb. We're gonna be doing the atom bomb. Anyway, let's not end on that. Kara's blowing up the world. Because I know, I also want to know, my last question, what gives you hope? Because you are a hopeful person and you play hopeful characters. You really do. They're always sort of looking on the bright side of things. It's from you, presumably. It's also from the writers, obviously, but you get picked for those roles. And I do talk a lot on the show about the need for people to find hope right now, because a lot of it can feel overwhelming. So I'd like to end by asking you, what, you know, gives you hope right now?

• 45:55Speaker 00

  This is sort of a controversial answer, because I think a lot of people don't find hope in this. But I find that the younger generation, the folks that I'm interacting with, every older generation, because like when I'm Gen X and I remember all of the, like, Slacker on the cover of Time and all that business. And so every generation gets shit from the previous one. But I just keep finding young people who don't want to put up with people who are hoarding wealth and who are not down with being loose with their language, who are wanting to be respectful of people. And I, I find that to be hopeful

• 46:40Speaker 00

  for the future.

• 46:41Kara Swisher?

  I would agree with you, with young people. I have a lot of kids, and two of my older kids are like that. And everyone's like, are you overwhelmed? I'm like, no, because of them, not because of you. You know, like, not you in particular, but whoever I'm talking to. I'm like

• 46:54Speaker 00

  No, but yeah.

• 46:55Kara Swisher?

  You people 25 to 50 need to go away and let the people under 25 run everything. Because they're very, it's a very exciting time for them in a lot of ways, with the way they're voting, the way they're talking about things, and the politicians they're attracted to also is really, it's really interesting. It's giving everyone else the, you know, the rash. But I find it very hopeful in some ways.

• 47:16Speaker 00

  Me, too.

• 47:17Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, absolutely. Anyway, keep doing your wonderful characters. I'm excited for Dale to have a big role. I think you and, wait, what's her name? Dale, also Dale, right?

• 47:27Speaker 00

  Yes, Dale Dickey.

• 47:28Kara Swisher?

  She plays, what's her character's name?

• 47:29Speaker 00

  Rosemary.

• 47:30Kara Swisher?

  Rosemary, which is a great name, by the way. But I hope you two have a spinoff. That's my whole goal, is the two of you have a spinoff in some way.

• 47:37Speaker 00

  Dreamy, I'm down.

• 47:38Kara Swisher?

  Like, you get on a boat and start, like, wander to another island in some fashion.

• 47:42Speaker 00

  Start our own island cult.

• 47:43Kara Swisher?

  Start your own island.

• 47:44Speaker 00

  She'll lead, I'll follow.

• 47:45Kara Swisher?

  Myth and Toys, you know, island of this, which were, in fact, all the gay characters and all those kids things, if you think about

• 47:51Speaker 00

  It's true. I saw that little swoop.

• 47:52Kara Swisher?

  Yes, yes, yeah, exactly. But good luck with next season and

• 47:56Speaker 00

  Thank you.

• 47:57Kara Swisher?

  amazing job.

• 47:58Speaker 00

  Thank you.

• 48:03Kara Swisher?

  Today's show was produced by Michelle Aloue, Catherine Millsop, Madeleine LaPlante-Duby, Megan Burney, and Kalen Lynch. Nishat Kurwa is Vox Media's executive producer of podcasts. Special thanks to Catherine Barner, Dave Shaw, and Julia Sharp Levine. Our engineers are Fernando Aruda and Rick Kwan, and our theme music is by Trackademics. If you're already following this show, you're sleeping well. If not, you're eating Taco Bell and you're okay with mid. Go wherever you listen to podcasts, search for On with Kara Swisher and hit follow. Thanks for listening to On with Kara Swisher from Podium Media, New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network, and us. We'll be back on Thursday with more.

• 48:46Speaker 03

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