World Champion John John Florence On The Mindset of Elite Sport, Walking Away At His Peak & Why True Mastery Begins With Surrender

John John Florence is a three-time World Surf League Champion and one of the most naturally gifted surfers of his generation. This conversation explores John John's decision to step away from competition at his peak. We discuss his evolution from forcing outcomes to allowing flow, why mastery begins with surrendering control, and transforming pressure into presence. We delve into why external achievements can't heal internal wounds and his choice to prioritize fatherhood over fame. Through it all, John John shares the profound life lessons the ocean has taught him. This is surfing as spiritual practice. And John John is the perfect guide. Enjoy! Show notes + MORE Watch on YouTube Newsletter Sign-Up Today’s Sponsors: LMNT: Get a free LMNT Sample Pack with any purchase 👉 http://www.drinkLMNT.com/richroll Momentous: Save 35% OFF your first subscription order 👉http://www.livemomentous.com/richroll AG1: Get a FREE AG1 "Morning Person" hat, welcome kit, and more! 👉http://www.drinkAG1.com/richroll Squarespace: Use code RichRoll to save 10% off your first order of a website or domain 👉http://www.squarespace.com/RichRoll BetterHelp: Get 10% OFF the first month👉 http://www. BetterHelp.com/richroll On: High-performance shoes & apparel crafted for comfort and style 👉http://www.on.com/richroll Check out all of the amazing discounts from our Sponsors 👉 https://www.richroll.com/sponsors Find out more about Voicing Change Media at https://www.voicingchange.media and follow us @voicingchange Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:02Speaker 00

  It's crazy. Like, the heat starts and I just click into this like mode where I'm just like, I'm winning.

• 0:11Rich Roll?

  But at the same time, you are this, you know, North Shore kid who just wants to have fun and pal around with his guys.

• 0:18Speaker 00

  Competition for me has always been about, can I like let go to let myself be able to surf in these moments?

• 0:24Rich Roll?

  You were like so young when you sprung onto the scene and kind of this hometown hero and with a young mind, like that has to, you know, kind of weigh heavily on you.

• 0:33Speaker 00

  I lost so much. I lost every event, first heat, and I was not doing good at all. I kind of went on these couple of just free surf trips at one point and we were filming a bunch and I just remember having so much fun. Everything started clicking for me. I can have fun like that in competition too. Knowing a direction you want to go, having that goal set, but then just enjoying the process to that. That's the direction I want to go and I'm gonna start here and then I'm just gonna take it step by step. Being okay whether you fail or maybe you end up doing something completely different, but just having a direction and a starting point and taking a step to do it.

• 1:11Rich Roll?

  Yeah, he's here. John John Florence, the three-time surfing world champion, the two-time Olympian, and the guy with two times the John in his name. That guy. So, you got that coming up. All right. Anything going on with you guys? Are you okay? Are you good? That is my Mark Maron impression. Mad respect for the OG of podcasting. Anyway, what can I tell you? I guess I can tell you that I'm trying to remain calm and grounded in our increasingly insane world. As some of you guys know, I'm into week five of my recovery from spinal fusion surgery, entering week six, I think, by the time you hear this. It's

• 1:56Rich Roll?

  moving forward. It's a little rocky on the mental health front. I can say that I definitely underestimated the toll that this would take on me. And the closest thing it reminds me of is kind of like being back in 2020 on lockdown, except with physical pain and basically immobility, body immobility. So...

• 2:19Rich Roll?

  It's been interesting, a new kind of learning experience for me, one that I'm doing my best to embrace for its lessons as this growth opportunity. And it's funny, because I had Elizabeth Gilbert in the studio today. She's just the best, man. Can't wait for you to hear that conversation. And you've got that to look forward to in the coming months. But I bring her up because she talks about this idea that she has, sort of, an approach to life called Earth School. And the basic idea is that Earth, or life, is this school for our souls, this academy

• 2:59Rich Roll?

  for spiritual ascension, where we, all of us that are here, in our current form and circumstances, are here because we volunteered for it, for this curriculum, for the purpose of growth, evolution, and ultimately, if we can see ourselves through it, our liberation. And it's essentially this perspective on life that frames every obstacle that we face, every setback, every difficult person in our life, as this intentionally designed opportunity that is delivered to us, to you, to wake us up to our true nature and help us remember

• 3:44Rich Roll?

  our divine connection, that basically, everything you face is really just an opportunity to evolve. And, look, it's not a new idea. My wife talks about this all the time. But Liz has this ability to give an idea like that, the Gilbert Treatment. And, I don't know, I think it's a pretty great way to think about this, to approach our problems, to confront our expectations and our entitlements, and meet the hard things that we face in life a little bit differently, with a little bit more of a welcoming spirit. And

• 4:21Rich Roll?

  I guess this is what I've been trying to do with this period of forced repose that I'm in, that when I'm forced to stop and I'm prevented from being able to do the things that make me feel like me, but also when I'm prevented from being able to run away from all the things that make me uncomfortable and I'm not able to medicate myself in things like, you know, work or other distractions. So I guess what I'm talking about is just trying to be present, a little more present in my life. And to ask myself, like, what happens when you're just still with yourself and there's nowhere to go? And what I'm discovering

• 5:02Rich Roll?

  is that this is where all the juice is. This is like the place of liberation. And as you know, if you listen to my recent podcast with Bob Roth, this feels like a skill that strikes me as pretty crucial right now, to grow, to change, to evolve, to connect with yourself, of course, and a power greater than yourself, of your choosing, but also, and not for nothing, a way to just better deal with and navigate the accelerating insanity of our increasingly confusing world. I think that's enough for now about that. But listen, if you want more details on this, on what it's like to have your body filleted open for a hardware upgrade, you can check out the recent Roll On episode that we threw up last week.

• 5:46Rich Roll?

  But first, let's acknowledge the awesome organizations that make this show possible.

• 5:56Rich Roll?

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• 6:41Rich Roll?

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• 7:01Rich Roll?

  All right. John John Florence. Yes, he's on the podcast, one of surfing's living greats. It's interesting, this guy, from the beginning, this was a kid, a little kid, growing up on Oahu's North Shore, just like steps away from pipeline, one of the most iconic breaks in the world. And everyone knew that there was something special about this kid. And he was basically anointed at a very young age as the second coming to Kelly Slater, the guy who was just gonna win it all every year, year after year. And in many ways, he's lived up to that. He has won a lot, including

• 7:39Rich Roll?

  back-to-back world championship titles in 2016 and 2017. But look, it's a lot to carry that label, to shoulder those expectations. And it took him seven years of not winning, years of setbacks and injuries, before he could finally reclaim that crown and win his third world championship title, which he did this past year. So we talk about that, talk about all the training and performance stuff, talk about mindset and visualization. He has a very unique visualization practice. But John John is also just a really soulful cat, a guy who has evolved his relationship with what it all means, what's important and why.

• 8:23Rich Roll?

  And those are things that motivated him to take a very different turn this year. He's taken the year off from competition to focus on his family, to focus on sailing. And that's pretty ballsy, coming off of a world championship win. And I think it speaks to somebody who has their priorities straight, somebody who is really clear on who they are and what it is that is important as a husband, as a fairly new dad, as an entrepreneur, and as somebody for whom it's very important to stay in love with the ocean. And behind all the accolades, this is a guy who's just a true waterman and also truly humble. I love talking to him, it's a great hang. So, there you have it.

• 9:07Rich Roll?

  And here we go, this is me and John John Florence. John John, so nice to meet you, man. Thanks for doing this.

• 9:15Speaker 00

  Yeah, thanks for having me.

• 9:16Rich Roll?

  You're at a really interesting stage of your life right now. Your son is almost a year old, right?

• 9:22Speaker 00

  Just turned one year, yeah.

• 9:24Rich Roll?

  And you made this, you know, kind of semi-radical decision to hit pause on the professional circuit in your career right now, which I think is a really interesting and bold, confident move. But I'm curious around the decision-making process leading up to that and how it's been going for you.

• 9:43Speaker 00

  It's funny, I don't think the surfing community was super surprised. I think because of my personality, I feel like people have maybe expected me to step away for a moment or two at some point.

• 9:53Rich Roll?

  Tell me more about that. What do you mean, your personality?

• 9:56Speaker 00

  I think I'm just like, uh, kind of more of a free surfer at heart, like, not a competitive surfer, but I'm very competitive at the same time. But a lot of people see me as like, uh, at least I think, like, this person who wants to go off and surf good waves and just enjoy surfing.

• 10:13Rich Roll?

  This is like my biggest question around you and your career and your approach to life, because I think your relationship to competition is really complicated.

• 10:23Speaker 00

  It is.

• 10:24Rich Roll?

  On the one hand, you're, you're very much a performance machine, like, you've got everything dialed, you're operating at a really high level, you're incredibly intentional about your approach to your craft and, and how you prepare for these competitions, like, it's, it's pretty rigorous and meticulous, like, at the highest level. But at the same time, you are this, you know, North Shore kid who just wants to have fun and pal around with his guys and, and make sure that you're not losing touch with The joy that it brought you, you know, throughout your childhood.

• 10:57Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 10:57Rich Roll?

  And, and, and that's a, that's like a murky, these things are, are they in competition with each other? Like, how do you synthesize those two things?

• 11:04Speaker 00

  That's been, that's been the hardest thing for me is it's always clashing. Like, some of my hardest, I think hardest moments in my life of figuring out who I am have been during competition on the road. And just going through these things of like, I don't want to be here. I don't want to be doing this. I'm not having fun doing this. Because, yeah, I grew up on the North Shore surfing my family, my friends, and I love surfing for surfing. I don't love surfing for the competing side of it. And for me, it's always clashed because it's, and I'm not really the personality type to be around lots of people and be told what to do and go surf like this or surf like that. But the one thing that does keep me coming back is like the mental side of it.

• 11:44Speaker 00

  I so much like of me enjoys that part of it that like, okay, I have to get into that mental side. What are these mental tools that I can learn? And it's like, competing is this really compressed time of like tons of emotions, right? And so, you know, one moment you're, you get a really good wave and you're like all up on adrenaline. And then the next moment you fall and you, and you kind of have to come back from that. And so it's figuring, I feel like I've kind of realized that I've learned all these like kind of bigger life mental tools in like such short moments and you can really test them and see how that works and see how that works. Kind of preparing yourself to go into these different moments.

• 12:25Rich Roll?

  But the competition is you against you.

• 12:28Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 12:29Rich Roll?

  And that, that's what I'm getting from that. It's not about beating other people.

• 12:33Speaker 00

  No, the competition for me has always been about, can I like let go to let myself be able to surf in these moments? And so when I get in the water and my worst heats, the worst I feel is when I'm not able to like. Let that tension go and just be able to surf how I surf. In my best heats, even if I don't make it, I'm like, it's funny, the ones that I'm able to let go and just surf. Sometimes I lose them, but I come in totally happy and I'm like, oh, I had fun. That was super fun.

• 13:01Rich Roll?

  This is why surfing is such a curious, unique sport. Unlike track and field or swimming, there's so many variables and you're contending with nature and whatever it decides to deliver to you and you have to figure out in the moment, how to work with it, not against it for your own benefit, right? So you push yourself, but you have to let go, you have to surrender and you have to find a way to be symbiotic with this, gigantic thing to prove your mastery. Like it's a, it's a really tricky equation to solve.

• 13:37Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's, it's so hard because like sometimes you feel, you feel like you're, I'm in my best headspace. Like I'm, I feel physically, mentally prepped. Everything is going right. Like I'm ready to do what I'm gonna do. And then the wave doesn't come and you're like just sitting there and you're like waiting, you're waiting, you're waiting. And then it just doesn't happen and you're like looking around like, wait, I was so ready. You know, and so it's really hard to like, kind of like come to terms with that sometimes. But like you said, it's just that, that feeling of being able to like, kind of let go to it and be like, I know if I get the chance, I'm gonna be able to do what I want to do, but I might not get that chance too.

• 14:14Rich Roll?

  But it wasn't always the case for you. I mean, you've gone through

• 14:19Rich Roll?

  situations in which you had, I mean, it seems like a pretty kind of crippling paralysis anxiety when you were in a competition setting where you couldn't let go or you couldn't just allow yourself to, you know, find that, find that flow and obviously that undermined your ability to perform.

• 14:37Speaker 00

  Yeah. And I think with anyone too, like that when you're tense and when you're overthinking and overstressed, like your body is not gonna let go to do what it normally does. Like for me, I think about it like I'm if, and when I'm in my best, when I'm in my best state, like I know how to surf. I know I could probably paddle out, get a good wave right now, not think anything of surfing, but I'm gonna take off in my body. I'm just gonna start like naturally doing it, you know? And so I have to remind myself that. Sometimes like rather than overthinking it and going like, what am I going to do? I'm going to take off on this wave and I could do an air, I could do a turn, I could like, there's, there's so many things that I could do rather than just, I'm going to take off and I'm just going to just start surfing, you know?

• 15:20Speaker 00

  And I like over three time, you, you start to learn little tools, little tricks that kind of get you into that space that where you might be at kind of overthinking it, but then you bring it back and like, one of my little ones has been just like, okay, what's the easiest thing that I can think of doing surfing? When I'm like overwhelmed thinking of all the things that I can do and I take off on a wave, I'm like, I'm just going to do a cutback. And that's just where you like, just do a simple turn back. And then once I start that, get a start doing that, like the rest of the wave kind of just happens. But it's about just like for me, just kind of getting that like really simple start and, and going with it.

• 15:55Rich Roll?

  To inhabit that state of no mind, right? If you're thinking and, and trying to figure out what the decision is going to be like, you're already toast.

• 16:04Speaker 00

  You're already toast. You're thinking about thinking about it, you know?

• 16:07Rich Roll?

  But you have all this muscle memory. So it's trust also in yourself. Like, I don't need to make a decision because I already know what to do and I'll figure it out.

• 16:15Speaker 00

  Totally.

• 16:16Rich Roll?

  Like intuitively and spontaneously.

• 16:17Speaker 00

  Yeah, but that's the hardest thing.

• 16:19Rich Roll?

  But the head gets in the way.

• 16:20Speaker 00

  Yeah, to go back and trust yourself and go like, I know that I'm going to do what I'm going to do, but you see someone in the heat before do a huge air and I get caught up in that all the time and wanting to like, the competitive side of me, I was like, oh, he, he got a nine, I want to get a 10, you know? Or whatever the scores are. And so you get caught up in that rather than just the like, I don't care what he did. I don't care what the other guy's doing in my heat. Whatever wave comes to me, I'm, I'm going to surf it the best I can surf it.

• 16:49Rich Roll?

  Controlling the controllables. And in surfing, there's so few things that you can control.

• 16:53Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, exactly.

• 16:56Rich Roll?

  But the Jedi move, like the Zen master move is to not allow any of those externalities to impact like the stillness that you need to kind of allow yourself to unleash that like ultimate ride.

• 17:09Speaker 00

  Yeah, and I think the, the biggest one that I've learned and it's, and it's, it's like counterintuitive, but it's like, uh, it's not blocking it out, but it's like just allowing things to hit you and then bounce off. Like the, like my headspace before he is like, I start getting nervous and I start feeling it in my stomach and I kind of like start noting like, oh wow, like I'm feeling nervous right now. Well, that's interesting. Like I feel it in my gut. Like, yeah, that's probably pretty normal. I'm going out for a heat. There's a world championship on the line right now. Like probably going to be pretty nervous about this. And it's weird when you start to like let the things just kind of like come through like that, how you just kind of start to accept them one at a time, rather than if I'm going, I'm nervous. I don't want to be nervous right now.

• 17:52Rich Roll?

  Resisting the way that you feel.

• 17:55Speaker 00

  Why am I nervous? I shouldn't be nervous. And then that just goes down a whole nother road.

• 17:59Rich Roll?

  It's the heart mind, right? Like learning to really trust that voice. Cause I've heard you talk a lot about like the body knows when it's in the wrong situation. And your evolution is in part been about like learning how to trust that. Like I don't feel like I should be here. This isn't right for me, right? And instead of tuning that out, no, this is where I am supposed to be. And like trying to like argue with, you know, what your body is trying to tell you to instead like be in acceptance of that and like really honor and heed that.

• 18:30Speaker 00

  Yeah, totally. And I think it's just, and that's what I, the last few years at least, I've been learning more and more is just kind of to accept those situations as they are. And like one instance was like the world championship heat at lower trestles here in California last year. It's like the most, the highest pressure event I've ever surfed, you know? And so like when there's tons of people, I get really nervous and like tons of people watching. And I mean, anyone would, but like the one thing I just remember, I was like walking down and I was like, at first, right when I stepped onto the sand, there's everyone's yelling and you're walking through all the people. And then I was like, kind of like, no, I'm going to block it all out and pretend I'm here by myself, going to surf by myself.

• 19:11Speaker 00

  And then I was like, wait, no, like what a cool moment this is. I'm just going to accept this. And then I felt like I was like this kind of like opening moment for me where I just kind of was just like, this is, this is so cool. Like everyone's cheering me on. I'm going out for this world title heat. And I don't know what's going to happen, but what a cool moment in my life. Like I'm nervous. This is a lot of pressure, like all these things. And it's just happening right now.

• 19:34Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 19:35Speaker 00

  And I felt like that was like the moment where for me, I was able to be like, kind of almost laugh at the whole situation, you know? Like I patted out in the first heat. I sat there for 20 minutes. Not one wave came through and I'm like, just able to like sit there and rather than be like, my chance is now. Like I was just able to be like, oh, like, This is funny that this is happening like this.

• 19:54Rich Roll?

  And then it all clicks and it works.

• 19:56Speaker 00

  And then the first wave comes, you know, that you're able to take off on and you're kind of in a good mindset about it. You're not in this tense like, ah, this is it. This is the only chance. It's just kind of like, oh, here comes a wave now. Like I'm like, I'm relaxed. I feel good.

• 20:10Rich Roll?

  How did you go from where you were to that, to that kind of realization and, you know, that ability to not tune it out, but just almost leverage it?

• 20:20Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 20:20Rich Roll?

  What a privilege to be here. This is so cool. All these people want me to do well.

• 20:24Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 20:24Rich Roll?

  Instead of like, you know, like what if I fail? Like, you know, doomsday scenarios.

• 20:29Speaker 00

  Um, it's been my whole career, learning to get that to that point, you know? And I, I think, uh, like I've gone through so many heats where it's, I've been overly tense, overly trying to block out what's happening around it and pretending like the crowd's not there, the competition's not there. And sometimes that works, but then sometimes it just, it doesn't. And it's, I'm in this state of like, it keeps coming back to me now, like a reminder of like, all the people are there. And I'm like, no, they're not, no, they're not, you know? And it's like this, like kind of a fighting within myself rather than just being on one track and just being like, oh, I'm accepting it. I'm here.

• 21:06Rich Roll?

  You have to be symbiotic with the wave, but you can't be symbiotic with the wave unless you're symbiotic with yourself.

• 21:11Speaker 00

  Exactly. Yeah. And so, once you're symbiotic with yourself, you can like relax and just allow it to happen.

• 21:16Rich Roll?

  Your entire career though, has, has sort of burdened is the wrong word, but you know, it's, it's, it's sort of loaded you up with a lot of external pressures. I mean, you were like so young when you sprung onto the scene and, and, and kind of this hometown hero and, you know, with a young mind, like that has to, you know, kind of weigh heavily on you. And, you know, all the, all the, all the, you know, the next Kelly Slater and all this. It's like, there's a lot, that's like a lot of pressure for a young kid. And then, you know, you kind of live up to it. You have those back-to-back world titles and then, you know, you have, then you have your struggles, like any professional athlete. Um, I mean, there's a whole journey in there to, you know, kind of arrive seven years later and, and win a world title and

• 22:01Rich Roll?

  have the confidence to say, I'm going to step back for a year.

• 22:03Speaker 00

  Yeah. So it, just my whole life has been, it's been like this, just crazy kind of waves up and down. And I, I think, but the, the real changing moment for me was like, when I was kind of coming out of my teen years and kind of coming in like, okay, I'm really going to pursue competition seriously.

• 22:20Speaker 00

  And then I, um, I couldn't really handle the pressure of that, you know? Cause like you said, like, I felt like there's a lot of expectation about what I was gonna do. And I lost so much. I lost every event, first heat, and I was not doing good at all. And I was like, ah, this isn't really working.

• 22:35Rich Roll?

  Because it was just weighing on, you think it just was weighing on you so much?

• 22:38Speaker 00

  And I-

• 22:39Rich Roll?

  Do you think there was some self sabotage? Like, if I lose, then maybe I can alleviate some of this pressure?

• 22:45Speaker 00

  Maybe self sabotage, but also just like, do, is this really what I, how I wanna surf? Or is this really what I wanna do with myself, like surfing wise? Um, and just, I was like, losing's not very fun. I don't know if I like this. And then I lost a bunch and then I, I kind of went on these couple of, uh, just free surf trips at one point. And we were filming a bunch and I just remember having so much fun. I was like, really enjoying just trying new things and new lines and all these different things. And everything started clicking for me. And once I kind of found that without competition, I was able to come back to the competition and be like, okay, like, I can have fun like that in competition too. I can do the same thing. Like, I don't have to surf a certain way. I can surf my own way with it.

• 23:30Speaker 00

  And I think for me, that, that really opened up a whole new world of like, oh, I wanna compete in my own way, not someone else's way.

• 23:38Rich Roll?

  When the thing that you love and that you're good at becomes your job and then all the joy is drained out of it, then, you know, you're on a fast track to nowhere, right? So like, having the wherewithal, the presence of mind to say like, I need to, I need to stay in love with this thing. And like, how do I do that?

• 23:54Speaker 00

  Yeah. Yeah. And so then like, I kind of went into this space of where I was actually, I was competing good, but pretty inconsistently. Um, I was having fun doing it, but, uh, like I said, inconsistently. And then I got into another phase where I was like, okay, now I really wanna take competition a little more seriously. And I like mixed in a little bit more structure and a little more mindset stuff. Um, just kind of into like, pinpointing into the competition side, but allowing my surfing to still be kind of a little bit free in what I was doing. And the thing that I noticed, which became, started to become really fun was like, I made the practice pretty structured and pretty, pretty rigid on what I was practicing.

• 24:34Rich Roll?

  Mindfulness practice or a mindset practice? Like, what was it?

• 24:38Speaker 00

  Mindset practice and surfing practice, like certain maneuvers or certain just things on a wave to carry speed through. I got really specific about what I was practicing. And then when I would get to a heat, the whole goal was to be able to let go and know that I had practiced it and just, just kind of let myself do it. And I found that was like a really good structure for me. It kind of had the, the mix of both of this like structured practice. And then I was still able to let go and surf how I want to surf within the heat.

• 25:07Rich Roll?

  I mean, that's like a theater actor who rehearses, you know, the script a thousand times so that they can, you know, show up on opening night and be off book and just...

• 25:18Speaker 00

  And you don't think about it and you just go with it.

• 25:19Rich Roll?

  Yeah, right. What are some of the tools along the way that you've discovered that have been helpful from like a mindfulness and mindset perspective?

• 25:31Speaker 00

  So some of the, like, there's a lot of breathing stuff that I like to do, just during, before, after, several different types of breathing, I guess. And then visualization for me has been a really big one. And I remember when I was getting into visualizing, at first I was visualizing like myself on a wave, doing a turn or surfing. And it never really worked for me. So then I started visualizing how I wanted to feel before the heat started. And that was a lot easier. And so for me, like, if I feel this just relaxed, kind of letting go, like, I'm going into the heat like this. And so that's when I do my best. And so that's what I started visualizing. I started visualizing like the walk down

• 26:12Speaker 00

  from the contest, the getting there, the like, oh, like, the waves look so fun, like, and just that kind of really relaxed feel to it.

• 26:22Speaker 00

  That's when I things really started clicking for me on the mindset side. I was able to like, do that over whatever 100, 1,000 times visualizing it. And then when the moment would come, I would just kind of let it happen. And I'd be entering into these heats, just feeling like so relaxed and so good. And just like, oh, here we go. Like, it was

• 26:40Rich Roll?

  That's super interesting to me. Of course, I've heard and I've practiced like visualization, like you visualize every tiny detail of the event.

• 26:50Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 26:51Rich Roll?

  And you walk through like the best case scenario, but then you do worst case scenario so that you can be prepared when things don't go your way, etc. But that's all like, practicalities, right? Like, but the idea of approaching visualization from an emotional perspective, like, how do I want to feel? I think is is very cool. I've never heard anyone talk about that.

• 27:13Speaker 00

  For surfing, I think it makes a lot of sense because surfing, like I can imagine visualizing specifics of what you're doing and say, like, track and field or something that's very like, you're on a, it's

• 27:27Rich Roll?

  There's only so many variables.

• 27:28Speaker 00

  There's only so many variables. Exactly. We're surfing. It's like, you can be like, okay, imagine yourself on a wave. You're like, what kind of wave?

• 27:35Rich Roll?

  It's never gonna be the wave that you imagine.

• 27:37Speaker 00

  Yeah, you know, there's like, there's a million different versions of the same wave that could that it could happen. And so I was, that's what I was struggling with. I was like, well, I could take off and there could be a ramp, or I could take off and I could do this or that. And so that's when I was like, that doesn't work for me. Just the emotional side. But I think that goes to my core of like, who I am when I surf is like this, this relaxed feeling of like, I'm having fun. And that's when I surf my best. So just kind of getting myself to that state.

• 28:15Rich Roll?

  I had Kai Lenny in here a while back and, you know, he was kind of walking through, walked me through like his fitness regime and like his diet and nutrition and all of his recovery, like how he trains. And it was, I was really impressed with just the, the professionalism of it all. And, and, you know, I know that you have a version of that yourself.

• 28:37Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 28:38Rich Roll?

  But this is like a new evolution in surfing, even from, you know, your younger years, there probably weren't that many people who were approaching the sport with that degree of intentionality.

• 28:48Speaker 00

  No, I definitely think it's in the last like generation that's it's really come on to be like, you know, you're training, you're doing the mindfulness stuff, you're kind of doing everything you can to win. Where before it was a little more of a party on the road and then you go surf some heats too.

• 29:02Rich Roll?

  And if you were taking it seriously, you know, maybe, maybe you'd be like some weird outlier, right? Like you wouldn't be part of the, like you wouldn't, you would be kind of ostracized.

• 29:12Speaker 00

  Yeah. Well, like Kelly Slater, you know, he's like, he's, he was doing everything differently. And he was just winning everything and on top and on top's lonely. And so like, he was kind of this outlier, I feel like of, of what was happening. And then, you know, you have like a Mick Fanning come in and he starts taking things really seriously also. And he starts winning. And then now today, like every kid is doing everything they can on the tour to, to win. It's fun though, because it's made the whole level of everything go way up.

• 29:42Rich Roll?

  So what is a day in the life when you're super focused? Not now, because you're just sailing, like, you know, like spending time with your family.

• 29:52Speaker 00

  A day in a life when I'm super focused is relatively structured. So if I'm getting ready for an event, it's, so this, I'll just kind of take into this last year's like, I had a trainer, a nutritionist, meal plans, kind of schedules of surfing somewhat of like, hey, tomorrow I want to work on these boards, this boards and kind of keeping the session somewhat short.

• 30:17Rich Roll?

  And are you making those decisions? Or do you have a coach? Like, how does it work?

• 30:20Speaker 00

  I have a coach, but I'm definitely making decisions on how it works for me. And then on top of that, just recovery stuff. So it's definitely like a. Structured, but a kind of like a loose structure almost on depending on waves and how I'm feeling. If I wake up and I'm like, I don't feel like I'm not feeling good today, then you know, I'll be like, okay, my body's saying I need to rest, I'll rest more. I just know my, for myself, like I will overwork rather than underwork. And so I know I'm not lazy. So if I need a day of rest, I know I'm not being lazy.

• 30:55Speaker 00

  Because I tend to do the opposite. If, if I don't set like a point for myself to come in, my sessions will go from an hour to four hours. I'll be still be in the water. Okay.

• 31:04Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 31:04Speaker 00

  I'm just, I'm gonna get one more. I think I'll get it on this next one.

• 31:06Rich Roll?

  And then, and then you get injured and you wonder, and you wonder why.

• 31:09Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 31:09Rich Roll?

  Yeah. What is the out of the ocean, physical training regiment? What does that look like?

• 31:16Speaker 00

  So for me, my out of the ocean regiment has changed so much over the years, just through injuries and figuring out what works for me. This last year I did, I worked with a guy named Chris Prosser from Australia. And he does kind of like a mix of DNS stuff mixed with movement and a lot of body weight stuff. And so.

• 31:34Rich Roll?

  That's dynamic neuromuscular stimulation? What does that stand for? I think so.

• 31:41Speaker 00

  Yeah, something like that.

• 31:43Rich Roll?

  Stabilization.

• 31:44Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's like, it's based on like foundational movements of like the human body from when we're like a baby to, you know, where we are now. And so I worked a lot doing that and I found that was the best for, that felt the best on my knees. That felt the best on my back, like everything. And I didn't add any extra load because I'm pretty physical outside of the water. I love riding my bike. I love surfing. I love downwind foiling. I love all these different things. And it's hard to keep me out of the water. And so instead of like, like limiting myself too much on those, like I definitely limited my sessions a little bit. But I also like Kelly Sturrett was one that was, helped me. He was like, hey, let's not stop everything you're doing. Let's just do everything you need to do in order to keep doing what you're doing.

• 32:29Speaker 00

  And so it's like eating more, rest, more sleep, recovery stuff, more movement stuff. And I did a lot of Kelly's movement stuff as well. And so it was this balance of like, kind of limiting my sessions a little bit and then, but then also like adding in. So I'm still enjoying it and having fun so that I can keep doing what I want to do.

• 32:50Rich Roll?

  And is it basically?

• 32:53Rich Roll?

  Like the entire day is devoted to training in one form or another, whether it's like recovery, nutrition, training. I know you've got like a hyperbaric chamber and you have a float tank and you've got like the cold plant, you've got like all the toys.

• 33:08Speaker 00

  I have everything you can imagine.

• 33:10Rich Roll?

  It's just kind of like one thing to the next.

• 33:12Speaker 00

  Yeah, so I kind of would, in my mind, I would set up a loose schedule of like, okay, I want to try to do hyperbaric every day or every other day for the next two months. When I'm home, I want to try to do the float tank three times a week. I want to do, and I want to work on these things while I'm in the float tank.

• 33:29Rich Roll?

  Like what, like what are you working on when you're in the float tank?

• 33:31Speaker 00

  When I'm in the float tank, I do a lot of like, like the first bit of it's like, kind of relaxing, kind of like letting the thoughts work, go through, because you end up, sorry, it's just everything's dark and you start thinking a lot. And so I try to get through that and just breathing and just relaxing, relaxing and just thinking of myself, just like relaxing every muscle. And then from there, once I kind of feel a little more clear, I'll go into visualization stuff and that's where I start to visualize like an event. And like I said, the kind of leading up to it and how I want to feel. And I feel like I get a lot out of that. And so I did that quite a bit in there.

• 34:09Rich Roll?

  Is that in addition to a formal meditation practice? Or is that your sort of some, sort of your version of a meditation?

• 34:17Speaker 00

  It's just part of it. Like, so last year I probably meditated every single morning. It'd be the first thing I do when I wake up, but wake up and even if I'm just still in bed, I'd just sit there and I would kind of start like a, some sort of 20 minute thing before I get up. I found for me that worked the best because I would just, I would do it.

• 34:38Speaker 00

  And so if I got up and got moving and started surfing and stuff, it's hard for me.

• 34:41Rich Roll?

  It's really, yeah. If you don't do it right away, yeah, I know that well.

• 34:46Speaker 00

  So yeah, I found a good mixture of that like I would do in the mornings and then when I was at home, I would use the float tank.

• 34:53Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 34:54Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 34:55Rich Roll?

  And now that you're, you're on this sort of sabbatical, I mean, you're still surfing all the time, right? But you're just not training, training.

• 35:03Speaker 00

  No, but I, like I said, like I, I'm pretty physical, like with what I do in my daily life, I love like getting to that point at the end of the day where like, I can't move anymore. I'm so tired, like pushing myself to that point. So I still do a lot of the stuff I would do, like when I'm at home, I ride my bike every day, I surf, I do movement stuff. I, I still do a lot of it just because I want to feel good and I want to feel like I can wake up and surf the best I can.

• 35:30Rich Roll?

  Has it been helpful to see like Kelly Slater kind of step back and dip back in and have this, you know, incredible longevity in, in, in his career? Does that like instill a little bit more confidence in you to that? Yeah, I can, I can take this break and come back and, and I have a long career ahead of me still.

• 35:50Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think just seeing him win events at 50 years old was like, for me was just like, I want to be able to do that. Even if I choose not to compete at that point, I would love to be able to still be surfing like that, you know? I, I love surfing and pushing myself. So it's, it's been more of an inspiration than anything to be like, oh, I, I want to, I want to do everything I'm doing during competition because I just feel better in that way. I think clear, I surf better, everything. And so, but just maybe in a slightly more family oriented way, you know?

• 36:24Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 36:25Speaker 00

  So I'm still doing a lot of it, but uh, it's just a little bit different.

• 36:30Rich Roll?

  What do people not understand about the behind the scenes of, of kind of keeping this machine running? Like with who you are and at the level that you're at, you have all these relationships with brands and sponsors, there's duties that, you know, you have to fulfill for them. You have to be a content creator, you have to be kind of an online, you have to be online in a certain way. And you're also like an entrepreneur, you've got your Florence brand and you know, there's, that's a lot. Like there's, there's like, like, do you have a team of people that help you manage that? Like what is the, what is the kind of daily, uh, you know, kind of routine around just like the business side of being John John?

• 37:13Speaker 00

  Yeah, the business side for me has become bigger than I ever kind of thought it would be, I guess. I think when I was growing up, you'd just think like, oh, just surf. And I get a sponsorship and I go to surf events and I make little movies and stuff. And so, but now it's just cool. I feel like I've really enjoyed where my life has kind of gone. And I've been able to like, start my own brand and get to learn the back end of the business of that. And in growing that as well. Growing a brand has been one of the most fun things I feel like I've done in my career. And now I have my brothers on board with me and the product side of it is like something that

• 37:50Speaker 00

  I've just been so interested in learning more about materials and just different things that we can do to make our life better and what we're doing in and around the water.

• 37:59Speaker 00

  I never even thought about how much I would enjoy that.

• 38:03Rich Roll?

  That's interesting. And it looks like it's going really well.

• 38:06Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 38:06Rich Roll?

  Right? And like the products are like very like dialed and high end.

• 38:10Speaker 00

  Yeah, it just.

• 38:11Rich Roll?

  Like you're not screwing around.

• 38:13Speaker 00

  No, we're not screwing around, but like you said, on the back end, it takes a lot of work. And I think I'm still figuring out what the balance of that is. And now we have a one year old. And so I'm like, I'm like, okay, family life, okay, that takes up 80% of the time. And then you have this other 10%, there's no more time anymore. There's no more time just sitting there going like, oh, I'm bored right now. What am I going to do?

• 38:35Rich Roll?

  But it focuses you.

• 38:36Speaker 00

  It focuses me for sure.

• 38:37Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 38:38Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 38:38Rich Roll?

  How do you think about balance?

• 38:40Speaker 00

  I feel like balance for me is just, it's like dynamic. It's always moving. It's always something that's flowing and changing. And I kind of feel like I'm always trying to figure out what the right balance is. And I don't know, it's kind of like knobs, you know, you're like dialing one thing up, dialing one thing down, seeing how it feels. Okay, now that that went a little bit too much that direction. Okay, let's go back this direction a little bit. And figuring out what the right kind of path is for it. I feel like I've done that through my competing too with training and everything. It's just kind of thinking of it like knobs, like, okay. And being okay if something doesn't feel right for a week, you know? And then being like, okay, that was a weird week. Let's go back the other way a little bit.

• 39:22Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Not all the knobs are going to be perfectly aligned on any given day. I think, I think it puts a lot of pressure on people. This notion that you're supposed to be in balance all the time. And certainly if you're going to, you know, excel at the highest level at something, your life is fundamentally by definition going to be out of balance. Like, you're not achieving these goals without it being out of balance. But I think of it as like a pendulum that's swinging.

• 39:44Speaker 00

  Totally. And I think that's where I like, I've learned to like, try to be okay with like there being a bad week. You know, like there's gonna be bad weeks, there's gonna be bad days. And you're like, okay, that was, how did I like that? Was that, was that bad because of this? Or was that bad because that actually didn't make me feel good at who I am or, or follow my values? And so kind of following that as my guide, I guess, has been kind of what I've been learning, learning to do.

• 40:07Rich Roll?

  And do you have dudes in your life that like, check you? You know, like, hey, bro, like you're a little off here, like maybe reel it in? Or, you know, like who give you the hard feedback and that you trust?

• 40:20Speaker 00

  My family, my family is probably the closest to that, like.

• 40:22Rich Roll?

  Your brothers?

• 40:23Speaker 00

  Yeah, not out afraid of saying like, uh, that was weird. Like, what, what are you doing there? Like, and I'm like, oh, you're right. That, that doesn't feel like me.

• 40:32Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 40:33Speaker 00

  That didn't feel right. I'm glad you said something.

• 40:35Rich Roll?

  I'm curious around your relationship with your mom. Like, she seems like a, you know, a pretty large figure in your life.

• 40:42Speaker 00

  Definitely, yeah. My mom's been a huge figure in my life, just raising us on the North Shore. And like, we weren't, we didn't have tons of money by any means. So like figuring out how to get us to go like to all these amazing places in the world when we were young and going to Bali for three months and then picking up all our stuff and going to Europe for three months. And, and just kind of felt like that was a huge part of.

• 41:05Rich Roll?

  Like, single mom with three kids.

• 41:07Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 41:07Rich Roll?

  Like, how do you manage that?

• 41:09Speaker 00

  We were going to Bali when we were really young and my, my brother was like four, broken leg with a cast up to his hip. My mom's pushing him on the cart and then me and my other brother are six and eight and we're just terrorizing. And I have my one year old now and I'm like, I don't know how you did that.

• 41:27Rich Roll?

  So what was it? Like, what, what was? Motivating her. Like, what was her commitment?

• 41:35Speaker 00

  I think my mom just loved being, or loves being in and around the ocean, you know? I think she loves surfing, she loves the beach, and she wanted to share that with us. And so, yeah, she just took us on the adventures with her.

• 41:47Rich Roll?

  And she's still around, right?

• 41:49Speaker 00

  Yeah, my mom surfs every day. She loves skateboarding. She goes to the skate park every day, and she still paddles out to Pipeline on her longboard, and so it's pretty fun to see that.

• 41:59Rich Roll?

  Is the North Shore basically the same as it was when you were a kid and you're just running around barefoot, you know, to school and to surfing? And I mean, it's sort of like free-range childhood.

• 42:12Speaker 00

  Definitely. I mean, it's changed a little bit for sure, but it's still pretty much the same. It's a super small community. The elementary school I went to is still there. The kids are still going to school and going to the beach after. Like, we have the bike path that runs up and down, and the kids are riding their bikes to go surf every day. And so it's pretty much the same as when I grew up.

• 42:30Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm. That kind of experience is, you know, I grew up in the 70s. Like, it was sort of normal, you know? But like, you see that as like quickly disappearing from most modern society. And, you know, Hawaii is pretty unique in that regard.

• 42:45Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's this really special place just because of, I mean, if you've ever been there, it's a, like I said, a really small community. We have one bike path that runs across the whole thing, or the highway that runs across it, and then the elementary school there, and Pipelines across the street, which for surfing is like the, one of the epicenters of surfing, I feel like. And so for me, growing up there and being a surfer and getting to watch my idols win world championships there, it was pretty incredible. And so, yeah, it's like-

• 43:15Rich Roll?

  It's sort of like Bill Gates, like, growing up proximate to some kind of supercomputer at the right time, you know? Like, all of the, you know, like, all of the elements were there, you know? It was like this perfect cocktail to, like, create you. I mean, you have this mom who was enthusiastic about surfing. You literally live, you know, on the beach where the greatest waves in the world and all the greatest surfers were. You start surfing when you're like, six months old? She's taking you out and you're surfing on your own at five?

• 43:40Speaker 00

  Yeah, so, yeah, it was definitely like a good mixture of, like, a good chain of events to get, get me where I am today.

• 43:48Rich Roll?

  Of course you want your son, your son to be a surfer, right? Like, what, but like, to my experience, like, the universe sometimes wires it. Like, what if, what if he's like, "I don't like the beach"?

• 43:58Speaker 00

  To be honest, like I don't care. Well, I would really love if he likes being in the ocean because well, I think we'll be able to share a lot of moments like that.

• 44:07Rich Roll?

  I don't think he really has a choice, though, right?

• 44:09Speaker 00

  Yeah, I don't think he has a choice. We're literally living on the water right now.

• 44:13Rich Roll?

  Yeah. In similar ways and in different ways, like you're a waterman in the way that Kai Lenny is. Like you, you love the water and you like doing all different kinds of things in addition to surfing, but a little bit different from Kai in that like sailing is your big thing. So talk to me about the whole sailing thing.

• 44:33Speaker 00

  Yeah. So like just in and around the ocean, I love doing everything like Kai. Like I'm inspired by Kai all the time. He does a million different things and he does them all really well. So for me, I like sailing a lot. For some, whatever reason, like, I don't know, 10 or 15, 10 or 12 years ago, I got on like a little boat with my friend in front of our house. And I was like, this is pretty cool. And we like went to this, to Waimea Bay, which is down the beach. And I was like, wow, we sailed down here. That was pretty fun. And then I was like, I'm going to get my own little boat. And then we were just like up and down the North Shore. And then eventually I was like, I want to be able to go to the other islands. And it just kind of became this like, it like opened up my whole world of this like self adventure, I felt like.

• 45:15Speaker 00

  And then mixed in with being able to like be on the ocean and read the ocean in a whole different and new way. Like the open ocean is so different from like being by the reefs, you know, the waves do different things. The swells look different and I just really enjoyed to kind of, and I'm still enjoying like learning that side of it.

• 45:34Rich Roll?

  And you've done some pretty big sails, right? Like didn't you, didn't you sail from Hawaii to Fiji? And you did this New Zealand sail recently?

• 45:41Speaker 00

  Yeah, we sailed from, a couple of years ago, we did Hawaii to Fiji and that was 3,000 miles of just, and just like, there's not much between, but that was really cool. And then, um, you know, that trip was especially cool because it's so long. You can't actually see the weather forecast for the second half, you know, of the trip. And so you're looking at the weather forecast for the leaving pretty much. And you're like, okay, it looks like a good time to leave. I have no idea what's going to happen on the second half. And then it turns into these just like, you're just looking at the weather where you are as you're going and trying to avoid like any systems or anything like that. Where we just did a trip from New Zealand to Fiji and it was actually, the weather was a lot scarier, a lot more unstable than that trip was, but uh,

• 46:27Speaker 00

  You can kind of get an idea of what the trip is going to be like, the whole trip before you leave, you know, you're not guessing what the second half is going to be like. It's a six day trip and the weather forecast is relatively good for the six days. So it was just different, but definitely the weather.

• 46:44Rich Roll?

  But when you're like out there and you just can't see land and you're, I mean, no one's coming to save you, like there's a high degree of like vulnerability.

• 46:52Speaker 00

  Yeah. This last trip was the first time I've been, I was really like, I had, I had a couple of nights where I was like really scared, the most scared I've been on the boat probably. Just with these moments of like, there's a current with 30 to 40 knot winds and it just makes these really steep waves that are breaking and they're really close together and the boat is just getting hit and you're in the middle of the night and you're sailing and you don't see the waves, you just hear them break and then they hit the boat and you're just like, it's that scary sinking feeling of like, oh, what's the next one going to do? How many more of these do I have to deal with until it gets light out? So for me, like, I'm still learning a lot and I wouldn't say I'm like nearly as experienced

• 47:35Speaker 00

  as a lot of the captains or boat captains in the world, but so that was a moment for me. I was like, whoa, this is, this is scary. I don't, I don't know what's gonna happen here.

• 47:45Rich Roll?

  And what is the perspective that you glean from that? Like, what does it give you? Like, cause it's, it's just not an experience that that many people have.

• 47:54Speaker 00

  The perspective, I guess, was just like going through the experience, it's, it was pretty interesting how relative things are. Like, so before that trip, like 20 to 30 knots feels like a lot of wind, you know? And I'm like, whoa, this is windy. This is like, I try to avoid that. And then after this trip, it was blowing like, I felt like we, I mean, just since we left New Zealand, we saw 50 knots a couple of times, we saw 30 to 40 knots of wind. And then it makes that 20 to 30 knots feel really calm. And you're like, oh, this is pretty easy, you know? And so it's pretty interesting when you like expose yourself to these like more extreme situations, how the situations that you thought were extreme before, aren't as bad anymore and they feel much more manageable.

• 48:39Speaker 00

  And I feel like that's kind of with life in general, like surfing, big waves, and then you go to a little bit smaller and you're like, oh, I was in that situation and now this situation feels pretty manageable.

• 48:51Rich Roll?

  Yeah, nobody just drops in on an 80-foot wave. They're working up to it so gradually, you know, over a long period of time. It seems like there's so much energy in surfing around the big waves, right? And that 100-foot wave, like, you know, it's like, if you're not surfing the big waves, like, you're Nowheresville, right? Like, does that hold an allure for you? Or is that just, that's not for me? Like, I mean, I've heard you talk about like, how much you love surfing small waves.

• 49:18Speaker 00

  Yeah, no, I love surfing big waves. I think growing up in Hawaii, just you're kind of like that experience thing. Like, you just are naturally like, put into those situations where you're experiencing it. And so it becomes kind of like part of your surfing kind of circle. My brother is, that's all he does, he chases big waves. And so for me, it's not something I'm like, oh, I want to go get the biggest wave ever at Nazaré in Portugal or anything like that. Like, I just like, every once in a while, going and having that experience, whether it's in Maui or it's in Onahu. It's like being able to experience those sessions with your friends. There's this feeling of like, after the day finishes, that you're like, it's like this

• 50:01Speaker 00

  like, come down of the session and you're like, oh, that was like, that was intense and that was fun, like, this whole huge adrenaline buildup. And it's just, it's amazing being out there with waves, when the waves are that big. Like, you come over a wave before a set and you just see the next one and how much water and how big it is and that sinking feeling you get of just like, I don't want to be here.

• 50:25Rich Roll?

  It doesn't matter how many videos I watch or, you know, I can watch 100-foot wave and look at these Nazaré waves and think that I know what that's like. But I know, like, there's just no way that I can even come close to grasping what it must be like when you're actually out there or you're being towed in.

• 50:43Speaker 00

  Nazaré, I haven't surfed Nazaré big, so that I can't say. But like, just from my experiences at home and just, we do a lot of paddling. We try to paddle big waves a lot. And so that in itself is just scary because you always get put in situations where you're like, you'll paddle for the first wave and then you'll miss it and you'll turn around and you're like, I don't even want to know what's behind me right now. And you turn around and the next one's breaking and you're like, okay, I'm good. This is gonna be okay, everything's good.

• 51:11Rich Roll?

  That's amazing. Have you had any close calls with sharks? Or some gnarly scary wipeouts?

• 51:20Speaker 00

  Wipeouts? I've had a couple. I had like, nothing that I've been like, really close to death. I've had, you know, moments where I've been like, oh, that was, could have been bad. But a lot where I've seen friends that are really close to us and been in the water when friends are unconscious and being resuscitated on the beach. And I think when you're that close to it and you see it happen that much, it definitely builds this little like internal fear and causes you to be a little more calculated with what you're doing.

• 51:48Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 51:49Speaker 00

  But it's just crazy because it could happen at any point. It happens to the best of us and surfing is unpredictable. So.

• 51:56Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 51:56Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 51:57Rich Roll?

  But it, it, it connects you with your own mortality in a way that I think is helpful as a life lesson.

• 52:04Speaker 00

  Oh, it definitely does. It definitely makes you realize and I've noticed even like since I've had my son, like I, I kind of second guess things sometimes now when I'm in the water and I'm like, gone to like another level more calculated of like, I'm going to wait for a good wave. I'm not going to force myself on, on a weird one that I don't know what it's going to do.

• 52:22Rich Roll?

  Do you think that that if and when you return to competitive surfing, that that little thing in the back of your head of, of having a son could interfere with performance?

• 52:32Speaker 00

  No, because I've kind of already gone through, like gone through a half of the year last year. You know, we had our Tahiti event after my son, like I, my son was born and then I went to Tahiti eight days later. Like it was right then and we had a pretty good size 12 for that. And I kind of was thinking about it, but then it's crazy. Like just from competing for so long, I, the heat starts and I just click into this like mode where I'm just like, I'm, I'm winning. I'm gonna win. I'm gonna try to win. Whatever, whatever it takes.

• 53:01Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 53:03Rich Roll?

  I don't really care about winning and this shouldn't really be a competition, but I'm definitely going to win.

• 53:07Speaker 00

  Yeah, exactly. That's what it is. Like you're like before, you're like, oh, like this is cool. Like I'm here and then the horn rings and then you're just like, I, yeah.

• 53:15Rich Roll?

  Have you, uh, have you watched that HBO comedy, The Studio?

• 53:19Speaker 00

  No, I haven't watched it.

• 53:21Rich Roll?

  There's a really funny episode where they're at like the Golden Globes and, and. And Zoe Kravitz is like up for an award and then all the press, she's like, I don't understand why art has to compete with each other. And I'm just happy to be here. She's putting on a whole show about like how it doesn't matter and I haven't prepared a speech and like, I'm not going to win anyway. And then behind the scenes, she's like, oh, I'm definitely winning. Like I'm, I've been campaigning for this. There's no way I'm not going to win. It's like, it's that same thing in a nutshell.

• 53:48Speaker 00

  It's totally that same thing. Yeah. It's just like, there's something just in us that I feel like is competitive. And when you're competing, you're just, you just click in and you're like, I'm gonna win. Like, that's what I'm here for.

• 54:00Rich Roll?

  What are some of the other like lessons that you've learned from surfing, being in the ocean that you think are, are applicable to life? Like, I think there's, there's so much wisdom in the, in the kind of relationship that you have to have to not just sport, but like, you're dealing with the ocean, you know, the unpredictability of it. Like, how do you manage something that's unmanageable? And how that spills over into other aspects of your life?

• 54:26Speaker 00

  For me, a lot of it has come from the competitive side. Like I said, like, I feel like there's so many, it's so many like emotional moments in such a short amount of time. And over time, I've built up these like tools and stuff. And, and I've been able to like, as I start seeing like, whoa, these apply to my whole life in a sense. Like, I can use these anywhere I am. Like when I was talking about when I was scared on the boat, like I all of a sudden, I was like, oh my gosh, I've been nervous. I've been under pressure like this before. Like, I'm gonna do this breathing and I'm gonna kind of like relax into this mode. And, and then I was, I'm able to like click into a gear where I'm like, oh, I can make clear decisions on what we're doing now. And so it's pretty, been pretty amazing for me to like be able to compete and then learn all this stuff in this like compressed format.

• 55:10Speaker 00

  And then be able to take it to the rest of my life, whether it's business or being on a podcast and being like overly nervous of talking in front of people.

• 55:19Rich Roll?

  But nothing is made better by nerves and anxiety, right? Like, you're gonna make your best decisions when you're present and you're calm. And now you have these tools that allow you to inhabit that more fluidly and frequently.

• 55:32Speaker 00

  Yeah, and that's all come from my like, competing and being in the ocean and the unpredictability of the ocean within competing, where you're being judged and scored and have to perform your best, but perform your best on something you don't know if it's gonna come or not. And so, and being okay with that. So I think I've learned a lot in that sense.

• 55:53Rich Roll?

  Yeah, adaptability.

• 55:54Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 55:56Rich Roll?

  You can't control the ocean, you can't control what the press is gonna say about you, you can't control what the competitors are gonna say, or what the next wave is going to be.

• 56:05Speaker 00

  Exactly. And like, my career has been, I've had a lot of injuries back to back to back.

• 56:11Rich Roll?

  And expectations and attachments.

• 56:13Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 56:13Rich Roll?

  You know, like, you're expected to be this person, you probably put a lot of pressure on yourself, things don't always work out. How do you, how do you move forward?

• 56:20Speaker 00

  And you go, and like, over time, I've just learned that, like, I'll go into these deep, kind of, hard places where I'm just like, ah, like, I feel like I'm not getting out of this hole, like, I mean, like, in this deep hole of like, I can't compete, I'm not doing what I wanna do, I don't wanna be here, I don't wanna be doing this. And then, but just realizing that, like, it's just, it's like, it just, not to be cliche, but it comes in waves, you know? Like, it, it just is like, you go, you go to this dark place, and then you kinda come through it, and then you come out of it, and you're like, okay, I see that, I went through that, and if that happens again, I'll go through it again. And I know it won't be forever, you know?

• 56:59Rich Roll?

  What would you tell that young 13, 15-year-old John John? Like, what do you wish he knew that you now know?

• 57:07Speaker 00

  Don't fight it, just enjoy it. Like, I guess, just let go to the process of it, cuz what's gonna happen is gonna happen. And, I don't know, like, it's, it's hard, because I wouldn't wanna change anything that's happened, you know? Everything I feel like that has happened to me, or everything that I've gone through, has been because it's been this learning, it's like a life learning lesson of... Because I didn't know this, I was able to learn this, you know? And so I don't think I would want to know all, everything that I know now because it wouldn't have been as fun.

• 57:39Rich Roll?

  Sure. Yeah. I mean, that's a super healthy way to look at it. Of course, you wouldn't be the person that you are had you not gone. You have to go through those trials and tribulations to learn these lessons. This is what we're, we're here to do.

• 57:50Speaker 00

  Yeah, exactly. You go through these darker moments, these harder moments and whatever it is. And then you learn so much from that. Like I went through back to back ACL surgeries, um, one after another, like, and you know, the first one happened when I was on one of the best runs of my career. Like I had one, two events, got a second, like, and I was like so far in the lead, going for my third world title at the time. And then I tore my ACL and had to, had to go for an ACL reconstruction. Never had surgery before, had done anything like that. And just, I mean, the surgeries are not fun. They're hard to recover from, you know? And so going through that was, made me realize like, oh, like, I'm kind of on this like, yeah, like I'm competing and trying to be my best for sure.

• 58:35Speaker 00

  But I'm also, it's like the bigger picture of like my life, I feel like has been on the mental side of it. On this like, it doesn't matter if I'm competing or if I'm recovering from an injury or if I'm trying to be a dad or whatever I'm doing. I think the process is still the same and the, the things that I'm trying to learn are still the same. So it doesn't matter what I'm doing. It's just, I'm still trying to accomplish the same things within my mind, if that makes sense.

• 59:00Rich Roll?

  But writ large, it's basically like, how do I show up as the best version of John John? You know, in the moment to be the most present and available and you know, to, that you possibly can.

• 59:11Speaker 00

  Yeah, exactly.

• 59:12Rich Roll?

  For whatever you're experiencing.

• 59:13Speaker 00

  So it's just pivoting from one thing to the next, like, oh, I'm all into competing now. Now I'm going to go all into recovering and learning how to heal myself. And what are the best things to heal myself? And how can I be the best healer that I can be?

• 59:31Rich Roll?

  Along the way, whether it's like recovery, healing, mindset, mindfulness, breath work, like who have been your influences? Like have there been books or people? You mentioned Kelly Starrett. Shout out Kelly. He's been helpful to me in my recovery from back surgery. You know, we both know like what a gem of a human being that guy is. But who are some of the other people that you've turned to? Or the practices that you've adopted that have been most helpful?

• 59:58Speaker 00

  Um, there's been a bunch of people that I've been able to work with. Like, um, you know, I mentioned Chris Prosser from Australia. Like he's was pretty big in helping me like learn a lot about myself last year. And then Tim Brown, he's actually here. He's like, does a lot of, he's a chiropractor, does a lot of really good work and just healing and stuff. The list goes on. Mike Gervais was another one that I worked with.

• 1:00:19Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I was like, I was wondering, you guys must know each other, right? Like that guy's gotta be your sensei.

• 1:00:23Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:00:24Rich Roll?

  You know, you guys are made for each other.

• 1:00:26Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:00:26Rich Roll?

  I love that guy.

• 1:00:28Speaker 00

  Yeah, he's, he's amazing at what he does. And he kind of helped me get on this like, almost like clarifying my thoughts on the competitive side of things and like putting a structure to it almost to be able to like, okay, this isn't like, I'm not working on something random here. This is like something that I can like build and perfect, not perfect, but like just build on, you know?

• 1:00:47Rich Roll?

  He has so much clarity and his ability to kind of communicate these ideas that are hard to get your head around.

• 1:00:54Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:00:55Rich Roll?

  To get your mind right. I mean, he's incredibly gifted at that.

• 1:00:58Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:00:59Rich Roll?

  And he's a surfer.

• 1:01:00Speaker 00

  Yeah, exactly. And so he understands it and he gets it. And so there's just been, there's been a ton of people like that that I've been able to work with through my career. And just all different sorts of things, whether it's, uh, physical recovery, mental recovery, whatever it is, and learn a lot from it. And then take it and go do my own thing with it and remold it into my own thing and be like, okay, now this works for me, you know?

• 1:01:22Rich Roll?

  So if I was Mike Gervais, I would, I would ask you like, what is, what is, what does mastery look like for you? Like, how would you define mastery?

• 1:01:30Speaker 00

  I don't think, yeah.

• 1:01:31Rich Roll?

  Do you think in that context?

• 1:01:33Speaker 00

  I kind of do, but I kind of don't. Like, I don't think there's, you're, you can ever really become a master of anything. I feel like it's just endless. And I feel like mastery for me is like, uh, I'm really into the internal thinking in the mind, you know? Because I feel like, once you get a handle on that, you'll never have it perfectly, but you'll be able to apply it to anything that you do. And so I think that's mastery within itself. It's just being able to get a handle on your internal self.

• 1:02:00Rich Roll?

  Mastering the self is the key to mastering anything else.

• 1:02:04Speaker 00

  Anything you apply yourself to.

• 1:02:06Rich Roll?

  Well, you're not going to master anything if you're not a master of your own mind.

• 1:02:09Speaker 00

  Exactly, yeah. Yeah, if you're just kind of completely acting at random, then I feel like the things you do are going to be at random.

• 1:02:17Rich Roll?

  How do you define success? Has that evolved over time?

• 1:02:22Speaker 00

  Yeah, definitely. Like, it's funny, when I was competing and going for my first world title, I was like, okay, world title, that's it, that's what I want. That's like the, once I do that, that's, I've done it, you know? Like, I'll feel good. And then it's, it's just the craziest thing, because you hear it from other athletes and stuff. They accomplish these huge goals, but when you, like, I accomplished that, and then I finished, and you wake up the next day, and everything resets.

• 1:02:49Rich Roll?

  You're like, why am I the same guy?

• 1:02:50Speaker 00

  You're like, I'm the same, nothing's changed, like, and so you kind of just keep going on about your day. And that actually was like, pretty hard for me, because I was like, I just chased this whole life thing, thinking that this would like, I guess, like, solve all my issues. And then you win, and then you finish it, and you're like, everything's exactly the same. Okay, now how do I cope with that? And so like, figuring out how to cope with that, and then like, come back again, and maybe like, okay, now why am I competing? What's the point, you know? Because you could go into that mode of just like, I accomplished it, I'm done, like, there's no, there's no reason for me to do this anymore. And I think that's where I really started getting into that mode of like, oh no, I'm kind of going on this bigger picture, longer, full life. It'll take my, my whole life, and I'll probably never accomplish like,

• 1:03:35Speaker 00

  really getting to know myself and master myself and the decisions that I make.

• 1:03:39Rich Roll?

  So success then is a commitment to self-mastery?

• 1:03:43Speaker 00

  Yeah, I guess so. Yeah, commitment. I guess it's a commitment. I think that's a really good way of saying it.

• 1:03:49Rich Roll?

  What's really funny is every single person who's achieved some, you know, audacious goal has the same story. Like, you know, this is like the, because you have to be sort of insane, you know, to chase these things and to achieve them and driven in part by thinking that this is going to fix whatever broken part you have, you know what I mean? And every single person will say, and then I did it, and then I was the same guy, and it was so disappointing. You know, it's like, I don't, you could listen to a thousand versions of that story on a thousand podcasts and read a million books, but, but we all sort of think that we're going to be the exception. Like, yeah, but not for me. Like, you don't understand, it's going to be different. It's like, this really will fix me, or, or then. But it sounds like where the

• 1:04:32Rich Roll?

  maturity is and what you learned was, you learned from that and thought, well, winning a second one isn't going to fix it. Like, a lot of people just get on that hedonic treadmill, like, oh, well, it didn't fix me, but that's because there's this other thing. Like, when I get that, and use your whole life, you know, but to like, learn at a young age, like, that's not the solution. It's an inside job, and there's another focus of my attention and energy that's going to be required if I want to solve that dilemma.

• 1:05:01Speaker 00

  Yeah. And, and I think that's where it really helps me through, like, I bring up the injuries, because I just felt like that was such a big part of my road to this last world championship. But like, it allowed me to go into those and be like, okay, like, like I said before, like, I'm just kind of changing what I'm doing, but I'm still going after my same, like, life goal, you know? And it allowed me to do that really well. And then I healed, and then I'm like, okay, now I'm competing again, and I'm going to put my mindset back into this again. And you're always building this one thing, no matter what you're doing in your life.

• 1:05:31Rich Roll?

  Right. Process over outcome.

• 1:05:33Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:05:34Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Well, it's good that you love surfing.

• 1:05:36Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:05:36Rich Roll?

  Right?

• 1:05:37Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:05:37Rich Roll?

  It makes the process part a lot easier.

• 1:05:39Speaker 00

  Yeah, it does.

• 1:05:40Rich Roll?

  You know? Has there been any thought of thinking, like, do I need to return to WSL and do the competitive thing? Like, you could go and be a Kai Lenny-type guy who's like, I don't, or like a layer, like, they don't do competitions, like, they have a life around surfing, and they can support themselves and, you know, have these beautiful lives, but they've opted out of that paradigm?

• 1:06:04Speaker 00

  Um, yeah, I definitely see that, you know? And I really love, like, sailing and exploration. I think that's probably where I would go if I wasn't good to go back to competing. I'll just continue, like... Going and trying to surf new waves and go try to go around the world or something. But there's such a big part of me that loves the competitive side because of that like just you learn so much so quickly about yourself, I feel like. And and I really, really enjoy that. And I still am deeply competitive at heart.

• 1:06:36Rich Roll?

  So are you going to race your boat also? Or you just want to use it for adventures? Or do you feel like you have to get into that world?

• 1:06:42Speaker 00

  Uh, I don't feel like I have to get into racing. I feel like the learning of like exploring and going to these really remote places is enough of a challenge. It's a, yeah, there's just so much to learn from it. It's it feels kind of endless. But and that's what I'm enjoying right now. But that's I really do, I go year by year. This year, this is what I'm doing. Next year, I might be doing the same thing, but I also might be doing something completely different.

• 1:07:08Rich Roll?

  It is unusual for for surfers to be sailing. Like you hear about foiling and all these different other kinds of like, you know, like paddling and all that. But like, it doesn't seem like there's that many who are committed to sailing like at a at a higher level.

• 1:07:22Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think there was an era like early on, earlier in surfing, you know, with Hobie Alter and Joey Cabell. And these earlier guys, these guys that were amazing surfers and what they were doing. But they were also building their own boats and sailing from Hawaii to Tahiti and doing all these other things. Like it's um, so I really like I'm inspired by that like generation of just these like complete watermen. And no matter what they were doing, like it didn't have to be coastal, didn't have to be around only waves. Like it was just the ocean in general. And so and the outdoors, like a lot of them did so much stuff in the mountains. And it just, they weren't like tied to like one category of it.

• 1:08:03Rich Roll?

  Gee, are you a fan of, is it World Cup sailing? Like with the with the those super yachts and what is that called again? America's Cup? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:08:11Speaker 00

  Yeah, I'm a fan of it.

• 1:08:12Rich Roll?

  Like Oracle and like all these like crazy, is it like the Rolex series or something like that? Like those insane boats, it's like the Formula One of sailing.

• 1:08:20Speaker 00

  Yeah, I'm a fan of it. Like the guys that do it are very athletic and very like. That mental focus is there, you know, and so I have a few friends that do it. And so they kind of think on those same wavelengths, I feel like. And then on the other side is the technical side of it. The things that they're building to make these boats go like, I mean, these, those boats are, it can be 10 knots, 10 miles an hour of wind and they're doing 45 miles an hour. Like, so that's like pretty crazy to be able to create something that's just going that quickly off the wind.

• 1:08:52Rich Roll?

  From an engineering.

• 1:08:52Speaker 00

  Just from an engineering perspective, like, yeah, the engineering part of that for me is really interesting.

• 1:08:57Rich Roll?

  That's an expensive world.

• 1:09:02Rich Roll?

  Boats, man. Yeah, like, I don't know, what kind of, what is your, what kind of boat is your boat?

• 1:09:07Speaker 00

  I have a gunboat 48, it's called. It's a catamaran, it's 48 feet and it's super lightweight, carbon, everything. Strong and fast. It's a lot of fun to sail.

• 1:09:18Rich Roll?

  And to be able to take it and surf weird places that no one has ever surfed before, probably, right? Is that part of the allure?

• 1:09:26Speaker 00

  That's definitely part of the allure, like, just like even, it could be a one foot wave this big or a 10 foot wave. It, it all feels like pretty similar. Like you come around the corner, you're like, look at that little wave. I wonder if someone surfed that, I'm gonna go surf it. So that's a pretty fun feeling.

• 1:09:42Rich Roll?

  What is your forecast for the next generation of surfers? The young crop that's coming up right now? Like you, you talked about like the professional level that, that, you know, athletes are kind of unanimously taking right now. Like what, what can we expect to see like a, like a bump in performance?

• 1:10:00Speaker 00

  That's a hard one to say, like, as for the performance side of things, I don't really know where surfing will go. I think the, it's at such a hard level. It's hard to think of what's gonna happen. The wave pools are becoming a pretty big thing. And so there's a lot of tricks being done in that.

• 1:10:15Rich Roll?

  Right, because you can just train consistently.

• 1:10:17Speaker 00

  Consistently on the same exact thing every time, which is so new to surfing. So it's hard to say what that will look like in 10 or 15 years.

• 1:10:25Rich Roll?

  And more and more of those are cropping up, right? So it'll be more ubiquitous and just imagine some kid who was your age when you first started surfing, but they're like in that thing every single day with just, you know, being able to perfect moves on the exact same wave.

• 1:10:39Speaker 00

  So, and who knows how big the, how big the waves get to in those pools and how good they get in the future. And maybe all the events end up being run in those pools. And I think that would shift surfing so much to like a.

• 1:10:52Speaker 00

  Way more performance orientated thing where it's like, it goes back to that visualization thing where you're like, you can actually like visualize the same thing over and over again and work on something. And you know, probably go like in the direction of like snowboarding, I guess, seems like, like with more spins and flips and things like that. And then on the other side, I think that people are gonna just keep taking it more and more seriously. And yeah, I don't know, maybe at some point, everyone has like a physical therapist, they have a whole team with them, you know, like everyone's going to every event right now. I think there's only a few guys that travel like a full team. But like, at some point, everyone will have their own team. And it becomes this like performance level that's like, across the board up here.

• 1:11:38Rich Roll?

  What was your experience surfing in the Olympics? So two time Olympian, Tokyo and Paris. Was that different from WSL?

• 1:11:49Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's definitely different just because there's a lot of hype around the Olympics and you do a lot of talking before. And like, and so like, it's like this slow pressure build up to it. And then the realization that you only have one chance at it, you know? And I think like, it was funny, when I went to Tokyo, it was like during COVID. So it was a really weird Olympics. There was like, not a lot going on. You'd go down and you'd surf for heat. There's no one around. And then you'd come in and that, it was funny because that one I had built it up in my head. I'm like, this is the Olympics. And everyone's like, telling me, oh, I had some friends that had done the Olympics. They're like, hey, it's, it's a big deal. Like, don't, don't discount that, that it is a big deal. And don't go into it thinking like it's smaller than it is. And so I went into it. And then

• 1:12:33Speaker 00

  I was like, what are they talking about? Like,

• 1:12:35Rich Roll?

  Like, no one's around?

• 1:12:36Speaker 00

  This feels like a normal event. Like, and so when I left, like, that, that Olympics, I kind of was like, I wished, I would have thought more like, no, this is like a normal surf contest. Like, and so when I went into the next one, I was kind of like in the more in that mindset, like, I'm gonna treat it like a normal event, how I'd approach a normal event, everything. The thing I didn't realize that was going to be so different was the you're you're very controlled on the lead up to the heat. And so

• 1:13:07Rich Roll?

  What does that mean?

• 1:13:08Speaker 00

  Like, so you have to sit on a certain boat with your coach and you get the certain amount of time to watch. And then at a certain time, because it's broadcasted, everything has to happen at a certain time. So then, at a specific time, you have to go to this next boat. And then you're standing there with your jersey with the other competitor for five minutes or something. And then you're sitting there for five minutes. And then the heat before ends, and you have 45 seconds to get in the water and go. And so it's like this like, kind of stepped

• 1:13:38Speaker 00

  schedule that happens before the heat that was way different than I'm used to.

• 1:13:44Rich Roll?

  So for people that don't know, normally, you would just be, you know, we out with your heat in the water for a certain period of time, and you just get the waves that you get.

• 1:13:53Speaker 00

  Yeah, well, normally, like, the lead up to your heat starting, like, so I have my routine, you know, so my routine, I show up usually an hour before my heat. I watched the heat, the two heats before, or the heat before, then I get ready and the heat just before mine, do my warm up, grab my jersey, go down the beach, find a little space by myself, kind of like, get into my own little zone, get in the water, and then like, kind of feel my thing there. And then then I'm kind of heading out into my heat. And I've like, been allowed to like, do my own little thing to get out there. Where the Olympics is like, it was like, very like, hey, you have to be here, then you have to be here, then you have to be here. And you're like, looking at the time for each thing. And you're like, okay, now I gotta get over there. And then you're

• 1:14:34Speaker 00

  standing next to the competitor you're about to surf against, and the waves are big. And there's just like, he's trying to do his thing, and you're trying to do your thing. And it's, it's just like, it was way different than what I'm normally used to.

• 1:14:47Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's all very regimented and controlled. And you're sort of, you know, corralled from place to place.

• 1:14:53Speaker 00

  Yes, exactly.

• 1:14:54Rich Roll?

  That's ubiquitous, you know, for whatever sport you're in, I think, at the Olympics. But you guys were in a really unique situation, because obviously, Paris Olympics, but you're

• 1:15:04Rich Roll?

  and I'm watching this on TV. I was actually, I was in Paris.

• 1:15:08Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:15:09Rich Roll?

  And we were talking about the surfing. And I was like, it looks like those guys have it pretty good. Like, you were like, your dorms were on a cruise ship, right?

• 1:15:19Speaker 00

  Yeah, it was like

• 1:15:20Rich Roll?

  You were staying on a boat.

• 1:15:21Speaker 00

  We were actually staying on land.

• 1:15:22Rich Roll?

  Oh, you were.

• 1:15:23Speaker 00

  Yeah, Team USA had it like we had an incredible setup like, yeah.

• 1:15:27Rich Roll?

  I was just looking at the cruise ship and I was like, this looks a lot better than like what all the athletes in Paris are having to deal with and having to get on buses and all that. But Gervais told me that actually it was, it was quite challenging because that cruise ship was so far from where the surf points were. And they would have to get up early and take these other boats and then go to land and then take other boats out. Like there was a lot of like logistical issues.

• 1:15:53Speaker 00

  If you were on the cruise ship, it was a mission to get to your heat, like even more so than I was saying like, yeah, you gotta get on a boat to the land site. Then you're on the land site, waiting for another boat to get out to the wave.

• 1:16:04Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:04Speaker 00

  And then you go through the whole thing I just explained.

• 1:16:06Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:07Speaker 00

  And we kind of had it.

• 1:16:08Rich Roll?

  Where I live, I walk out my front door and go right to pipeline.

• 1:16:11Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:16:12Rich Roll?

  Why can't it be like that?

• 1:16:13Speaker 00

  Yeah, so it was, uh, it was just definitely different in that sense, like, um, and I wish.

• 1:16:19Rich Roll?

  Adaptability.

• 1:16:20Speaker 00

  Yeah, and I just didn't, I don't know, I like, I, I underplayed it in my mind leading up to it. And so when it came to that moment, for me, I was like, oh, this is like way different than I was expecting. Also, to not to mention the week leading up, you have set practice times. So, hey, you're gonna go practice from nine 30 to 10 tomorrow with these two other teams. Where normally it's like, I'm gonna wake up and I'm gonna go surf when I think my first, around the same time my first heat is and I'm gonna play it like that. Where this was just like, it was scheduled all the way through.

• 1:16:55Rich Roll?

  So you, you, you don't have that ability to control your

• 1:16:59Speaker 00

  Yeah, it was

• 1:17:00Rich Roll?

  Your routine.

• 1:17:01Speaker 00

  It was really interesting though, because it caught me off guard a little bit. And when I got caught off guard, I got so nervous and then it was really hard to come back from that nervousness of like. Okay, like, wait, this is, this is not what I was expecting. And it was just one of those moments where you like, realize you're like, I'm so far from being like totally a master at doing this.

• 1:17:20Rich Roll?

  Like, So do you feel the pull to go back? Like, is there unfinished business there?

• 1:17:24Speaker 00

  Yeah, for sure. I think the Olympics is such a fun challenge, just because it is pretty different and it's such a just a big event.

• 1:17:32Rich Roll?

  So LA 28, where are they gonna do the surfing?

• 1:17:35Speaker 00

  They're having it down south at Lower Trestles.

• 1:17:38Rich Roll?

  Yeah, so you know it well.

• 1:17:39Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:17:40Rich Roll?

  You've done well there.

• 1:17:41Speaker 00

  A little separated, but it'd be pretty cool to be a part of that.

• 1:17:44Rich Roll?

  Well, it's a little more approximate than Tahiti and Paris.

• 1:17:47Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:17:47Rich Roll?

  You know?

• 1:17:48Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:17:49Rich Roll?

  LA 28 is gonna be interesting.

• 1:17:51Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:17:51Rich Roll?

  I hope, I hope the city can be ready for it.

• 1:17:53Speaker 00

  I know.

• 1:17:54Rich Roll?

  But it's pretty exciting that it's gonna be here.

• 1:17:56Speaker 00

  It's so exciting. I hope I can be a part of it.

• 1:17:59Rich Roll?

  In terms of, I want to get back to like, the life lessons, you know, that you learn from the ocean. It is a very, not necessarily Buddhist, but kind of like a eastern philosophical kind of spiritual relationship that you have to have with nature in order to perform. And I feel like that gives surfers a really interesting perspective on life. Like, we talked about adaptability and presence and, you know, mindfulness. Like, are there other ripples or aspects of what you do that you think are interesting for the average person to hear about that they could glean something interesting for their own life?

• 1:18:40Speaker 00

  It's hard to say whether it's just from the ocean or not, like, just purely from the ocean. But I guess the one thing is just like that connection to nature. You're out there, you're surfing, there's wildlife, there's waves, you're reading the ocean, and you're kind of in this space. And I guess the one thing I've learned is like, I don't know how good it is for you to be out in nature, to be out in that kind of like, just whether it's in the mountains or in the water or whatever it is, like, I think it's like, yeah, like deeply innately good for the human body and mind and everything. And I know for myself, especially like, if I go surf for 20 minutes and I'm just by myself in the water, like, I come out like a different person, you know? If I go for a hike in the mountains by myself, like, you come out like a different person.

• 1:19:21Speaker 00

  And just that feeling of being outside and just kind of like, like, we talked about that before, of that feeling of like letting go. I think that's what happens kind of in nature. It allows you to be have that feeling of just like, ah, okay, I'm letting, I'm kind of letting go to just everything. Everything's just kind of happening, you know?

• 1:19:38Rich Roll?

  And a humility.

• 1:19:39Speaker 00

  Yeah, the humility, like you can't control it. It's just, it is what it is. And I think being okay with that, not being able to control it.

• 1:19:47Rich Roll?

  You live a pretty holistic lifestyle overall.

• 1:19:50Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:19:51Rich Roll?

  I would say in the grand scheme of, you know, modern society, you know? Most of the time barefoot.

• 1:19:58Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:19:59Rich Roll?

  Saltwater drenched.

• 1:20:00Speaker 00

  Exactly. Like, it's just every day at the beach, every day in the water, in the mountains are just where I feel the best.

• 1:20:07Rich Roll?

  Is it strange when you travel and suddenly you're in some huge city?

• 1:20:12Speaker 00

  I think California has always been the, like, I spend a lot of time here. Um, our, we have our main offices for our business here and stuff. And every time I fly into California, I don't know, like when you fly in at night and it's just this like crazy gridlock of lights, you know, it's like, you're looking at it and you're just like, oh my gosh, it, to me, it's surreal every time. It feels like a different world. And then you get here and it's just like, life is so fast. Everything's moving so quick. It feels like everyone's in a rush to get somewhere.

• 1:20:41Rich Roll?

  No, it's just that you guys are going too slow.

• 1:20:43Speaker 00

  Yeah, exactly.

• 1:20:45Rich Roll?

  Like we travel to Hawaii and you're like, come on with the coffee line, you know?

• 1:20:49Speaker 00

  Everyone's just like, ah, it's all good. Like, we're doing our thing.

• 1:20:53Rich Roll?

  Are you still a beekeeper?

• 1:20:55Speaker 00

  Yeah, we have our beehives still.

• 1:20:57Rich Roll?

  What is that all about?

• 1:20:58Speaker 00

  Uh, just another thing that I, I don't know, I get, I get into all these different little hobbies. I see it and then I get really obsessed about it. And then I'm just like, oh, I gotta know, I gotta try, or I gotta see what that's about.

• 1:21:09Rich Roll?

  You've been doing that for a while.

• 1:21:10Speaker 00

  Yeah, we've had the beehives for a while. We have a couple of friends that help us with it, um, a lot because we travel so much. But just getting to learn it and understand, understand it a little bit, like it's such a complex little system. I don't know. It, it's so interesting to me to, every time we like open up the hives, just this, the system that the bees have and how they work. It's pretty incredible.

• 1:21:32Rich Roll?

  And do you keep the honey or like sell it at the farmer's market?

• 1:21:36Speaker 00

  Uh, we don't sell it, we hoard it.

• 1:21:40Rich Roll?

  That's a lot of honey.

• 1:21:41Speaker 00

  Yeah, no, so we have, uh, the hives, like, we lose some hives sometimes, sometimes we get more. So we've caught like a few swarms and then you gain two more hives. And so sometimes we've had up to like six hives and then I think right now we have four. So it depends like, and which ones are like producing. It's pretty amazing, like, all the hives are within a couple of feet of each other, you know, like standing right next to each other. And one hive could have found like the nectar and flowers at one spot, but the hive next to it could be totally suffering and not have found it. It's so crazy how that, how that works like that. And so it's always a balance of like getting honey out of the right ones and leaving the other ones, not touching them. So it's not always as much honey as you would think.

• 1:22:27Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I would have, I would have thought it's just cranking out honey all the time.

• 1:22:30Speaker 00

  No, we definitely get like gallons of honey each time we harvest like once a year, but yeah.

• 1:22:35Rich Roll?

  And, and where does the photography enter the picture? Like you're a big Leica guy, right?

• 1:22:41Speaker 00

  Yeah, so photography-

• 1:22:42Rich Roll?

  People who are into Leica are like, they're super into Leica.

• 1:22:47Speaker 00

  Yeah, I, I like the Leicas a lot. I have two Leicas, but, uh, I got into it, like my mom was always shooting photos when we're on the road and then I kind of just got into it at one point. And then I, it was random because I was like, uh, I was on a trip and a friend had a rangefinder camera. That's a pretty cool type of camera. And then I just looked, I was like, what's the best type of rangefinder? And then everyone was like talking about like Leicas and I was like, oh, I'm going to get one of these. And that first Leica that I bought at that time, I think it was like 17 or 18 or something. I still have it, I still use it all the time. And it's just such a solid little camera. It's fun to shoot, it makes you think about the photo more. But, um, also I just think there's, it's a little bit of a, like, it's kind of a novelty of, of a camera.

• 1:23:30Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it is. And when you see a Leica, you know it, like there's something distinctive, like you can't quite put your finger on it, but you can tell.

• 1:23:40Speaker 00

  Through the lenses, you know, they have their colors that come through the lenses, the colors that come through on their sensors, also on their new cameras. Like, it's pretty distinctive to Leica.

• 1:23:49Rich Roll?

  The Leica gallery here in LA?

• 1:23:51Speaker 00

  No, I haven't.

• 1:23:52Rich Roll?

  It's you would you would dig it. It's pretty cool. Yeah. So you take that when you travel and you've just been chronicling your life?

• 1:24:00Speaker 00

  Yeah, I don't.

• 1:24:00Rich Roll?

  Like I saw some videos where you're showing somebody some black and whites.

• 1:24:03Speaker 00

  I don't know what to do with my photos. I'm like too lazy to like really actually do anything with them. So I just kind of like keep storing them and keep organizing them. But I love taking the photos at all these places we go. I have a Leica M10 and an M7 that shoots film. And the M7 was the first one I bought. And then for the longest time, I just shot black and white and developed my own black and white at my house. And that was really fun to learn that process. It's just a whole different side to it. So many variables that you can like change and adjust and on the back end of shooting a photo.

• 1:24:36Rich Roll?

  Do you enjoy the the content aspect of your job? Like the idea that you have to be putting out these videos all the time? So like, there seems to be like an endless appetite for surf videos. Like, people love it. But I would imagine like there's you seem like kind of a you don't seem like somebody who's like seeking the spotlight or who who's like getting off on that kind of thing.

• 1:25:01Speaker 00

  No, it's funny for me because I I'm torn between the whole thing like.

• 1:25:06Speaker 00

  My brother is really good at um he has like a YouTube and he's like kind of a big personality in that way. And he gets it all out there every minute, like Instagram and YouTube and all this stuff. And for me, it's a lot harder because I don't want really anything to do with that treadmill. But I love the art side of putting together projects and film and videos. And it's getting to a funny point because everyone just craves these really short YouTube or Instagram things. And they're like liking the more raw, just low edited kind of side of it. And for me, I'm like, I don't want to do that. I want to put together these like really nice things, but they take so long. But by the time they come out, it's like old news for everyone.

• 1:25:47Rich Roll?

  Well, this is the this is the tension between art and commerce, right? It's like what I like and what's cool versus what the algorithm likes or what people want to see.

• 1:25:55Speaker 00

  And I think the algorithm just wants that raw, quick, short, in your face, like. In the moment, and I'm bad at that.

• 1:26:02Rich Roll?

  Did you, you grew up with Koah Smith, right?

• 1:26:05Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:26:05Rich Roll?

  So he's like making YouTube videos all the time. I've watched a bunch of his videos. He seems like he enjoys it, like he's more of a natural, making that kind of vloggy stuff.

• 1:26:14Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think, I think Koah enjoys it a lot. And that's interesting to me because like he's a, yeah, kind of natural, like really into mindfulness and breathing and stuff. And so I'd be, I actually haven't asked him, but I want to now, but like how he balances that, you know, because it is, they're kind of counterintuitive in a way. Yeah.

• 1:26:35Rich Roll?

  Right. If you're, if you're talking about being present and mindful, but you're, you know, making content out of it.

• 1:26:40Speaker 00

  Yeah, so it's like, how do you do that? Like, I want to know.

• 1:26:46Rich Roll?

  And in this sabbatical year, like your sponsors are cool. You like, you've got buy-in and support to do this. Is that a challenge too? Like back to the kind of like economics and business side of like how you make everything work.

• 1:26:59Speaker 00

  Really see it as a sabbatical, like it's like more of like just putting my energy into a different place, you know? And so like a lot of my partnerships, I've been fortunate enough to be able to partner with people that I'm really aligned with, like, and that their values align with my values. And so when I said, I was like, oh, I want to go sailing and adventure with my family and do projects around that. Everyone's like, great, that sounds awesome, you know? And so I think that's the benefit of like, one, having my own brand that I just do that. And then the other ones are just like, everyone's in line with that. And everyone is like all about getting outdoors and the outdoor life. And that's kind of become part of my inspiration behind my own brand and just what I kind

• 1:27:41Speaker 00

  of represent, I guess, is that trying to inspire people to get outdoors is a big one for me because I like, I'm all, I've spent so much time in and around the ocean that you just want to protect it and you want to do all these things to protect it. And then I kind of came to a realization that like, it's really hard to tell someone that hasn't spent much time in the ocean or around it. Hey, you should protect this, it's pretty important. They have to have their own connection point. They have to have their own experience with that to want to do that. And so I figured out, I figured the best way is to get, is to inspire people to go outside and find their own connection to it, you know?

• 1:28:15Rich Roll?

  It would be hard to, if you're somebody who's in the ocean all the time, or you're in the mountains all the time, it would be difficult to not be an environmentalist.

• 1:28:24Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:28:25Rich Roll?

  Right? Like, you're in it every day. You're seeing things other people aren't. Like, what is it, what is the message that you want to impart around sustainability and environmental awareness? Without bludgeoning people over the head.

• 1:28:37Speaker 00

  No, but it's a hard one, you know? Because like, if, like I said, like, if you're not out there and seeing it and feeling it, and like, have those amazing moments in it, and then see the changes that happen, like, it's really-

• 1:28:48Rich Roll?

  Or be in the Philippines or somewhere and see all the garbage.

• 1:28:51Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:28:51Rich Roll?

  Or, you know, like, you see the changes.

• 1:28:53Speaker 00

  Feed that to someone who's never seen that or been a part of that, so, like, I just have gone more to the side of like, I just want to get people like, excited to go outside, you know? And so, on that side of it is like, yeah, I think once they get excited, then it's a lot easier to have that conversation and be like, oh, like, check out this. This is pretty interesting, you know?

• 1:29:13Rich Roll?

  Where do you see yourself in five years? Like, do you think about that? Or are you just, you're so present and mindful, like, you're in your moment, dude?

• 1:29:21Speaker 00

  Five years is really hard to say.

• 1:29:22Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:23Speaker 00

  I could still be on my boat.

• 1:29:25Rich Roll?

  I mean, you have, you have, you have goals, you have dreams, you have things you want to accomplish. Yeah.

• 1:29:29Speaker 00

  Yeah, my brand has become a really big one, like, growing that and growing that in the right way, and doing things responsible, and making things that are really great. Like, I think that's a big part of my five-year goal. I have these competitive dreams still that I would love to do, the Olympics, another world title, things like that. But then I also like, want to go sailing around the world, and that takes a couple of years, and experience all these different cultures and places, way out there and surf amazing waves. I don't know if I can do that all in five years, so I kind of got to like,

• 1:30:00Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:01Speaker 00

  take it year by year and be like, okay, this year I'm doing this. I'm going all in on this.

• 1:30:05Rich Roll?

  And that pendulum swings.

• 1:30:06Speaker 00

  Yes, exactly.

• 1:30:08Rich Roll?

  The balance meter.

• 1:30:09Speaker 00

  The balance, yeah. And each year you're like, okay, how am I going to balance this?

• 1:30:11Rich Roll?

  If I'm sailing around the world, is my life in balance?

• 1:30:13Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:30:14Rich Roll?

  I don't know.

• 1:30:14Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:30:14Rich Roll?

  You know, it depends on how you define that, I guess.

• 1:30:16Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:30:17Rich Roll?

  What would your advice be to a young, up-and-coming surfer with dreams of glory and a commitment to excellence? Like, what have you learned that you would want to impart to the younger generation?

• 1:30:29Speaker 00

  I think what I've learned is like, It's really important to find your own way and kind of let that process happen. Because you see a lot of kids now and they're being coached from such a young age to to become whatever they are. But I think like it's so important to kind of go down your own path and feel those mistakes yourself. Learn things yourself because then it's just ingrained in you and you find your own path. That's going to make you your best like me and you, for example, like we're going to have totally different approaches to something to be our best. And so that's what I would try to explain is like really let it happen for yourself and make your own mistakes.

• 1:31:12Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's self-understanding.

• 1:31:13Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:31:13Rich Roll?

  I mean, when you're young, you need guidance and you need externality, like somebody else to like guide you, right? But at some point, you have to take ownership of that.

• 1:31:21Speaker 00

  Yeah, and being able to take it like I like that a lot, like being able to take ownership of of the mistakes or of your failures or of your losses, not going, I lost because my coach told me to do this. Like, no, you lost because you made that decision to do that, you know? And so taking ownership of that, that's when you really start to learn. And that's when things just start to like steamroll. I feel like is when you're able to come in from a heat and you've lost and you go, yep, I didn't surf that wave well. I didn't go on that wave or whatever is it's it's no one else's decision making but your own.

• 1:31:58Rich Roll?

  But there are like all the young kids are are have coaches now, right?

• 1:32:02Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's a it's a crazy thing. And I and I think I don't want to discount that at all, like having a coach is so important. Like I worked with Ross Williams for the last eight years now, like through my three world titles. And it was so fun to be able to have someone to be able to like, but the way we worked was like I would. He's always there as my sounding board to be able like, hey, I'm I want to start going in this direction. This is what I'm looking to do. And then he he would kind of give a little bit of like, oh, that looked really good when you did that, you know? And then I would come in and look at the footage and go, oh, you're right, that did look really good. Like that didn't feel good when I was out there, but that actually looks good. I'm going to keep working on that. And so just someone to kind of.

• 1:32:46Speaker 00

  Help pull you back to reality sometimes because it's really easy to get caught up in your own mess of mental stuff.

• 1:32:56Rich Roll?

  You need an outside perspective, lose objective, right? And that relationship should be collaborative.

• 1:33:01Speaker 00

  Yeah, exactly. And so Ross has always been there and really good at helping me get to like feeling my best, feeling confident and feeling like, okay, like I'm in my space, you know? And like my whole team has been that, you know, like of like, we've kind of worked on this like relationship of this like, when I go out to heats, I like, I feel confident, I feel good, I feel like I'm doing the right stuff. I've had so many sessions where I've come in before a contest, like the day before, and I'm like, that board felt terrible, I didn't feel good, I felt slow. So I guess, and he's like, what are you talking about? Like, you look totally normal, you look fast. And just that day in my head, I was not feeling like I thought I should be feeling. But then I come in and I talk to him, then I watch the clips and I'm like, you're right,

• 1:33:46Speaker 00

  that's in my head.

• 1:33:47Rich Roll?

  Short of that, like without that external feedback, when you get into that negative mindset, or you start to spiral, like, how do you, how do you pull yourself out of that? Or how do you, you know, kind of maintain a positive mental attitude?

• 1:34:00Speaker 00

  Um, I think breathing has been a lot of that, like you, and self-realization, like in that, like, oh, I see that I'm starting to spiral, okay, I'm gonna take a couple of deep breaths, I have these tools that it kind of like help me get, like, just kind of get yourself out of that mindset for a second. And then for me, it's like, it's like a breathing, a couple of thoughts to like reminders to like get myself jumpstarted out of that. And then a couple of small things that I can do really easily, like I said earlier, like I'm gonna take off my wave and just do a turn and then see what happens after that. And so for me, that's like my steps that like I go through during a heat, if I get into that, like really negative space.

• 1:34:41Rich Roll?

  What is the specific breath work practice? Is there one or you have a, like a battery of different ones that you do?

• 1:34:47Speaker 00

  I have like a bunch of different ones, like there's like a, I've found like a Wim Hof type breathing, like maybe not exact, but similar, like before competition, I always like doing it, like really helps me if I'm nervous, get like just all the nerves and stuff out and I feel really like confident after. So that's like one during, it can be more of like a really deep breath to like.

• 1:35:12Speaker 00

  Holding it and then like, it's like, kind of what I learned from Mike, but like, deep breath and then like a little more and just feeling the tension and then just relaxing and letting everything relax with that. And I, sometimes I'll do that during heats or during heats, I'll do like a quick like in and out, like through the nose only, and just kind of getting that focus and counting that. And just little ones that like kind of help you just,

• 1:35:35Speaker 00

  like get you out of whatever you're in.

• 1:35:37Rich Roll?

  Calm your nervous system down. Like it's incredibly reliable and effective.

• 1:35:40Speaker 00

  It is. You're doing it all day.

• 1:35:44Rich Roll?

  So you are flying out tonight. You're going to Fiji. Like you're basically living on a boat in Fiji right now, right? And so, so what, you know, what is the, what's the plan for this year? Just follow your muse and be with your family?

• 1:35:58Speaker 00

  Yeah. So there's kind of like a few things, like I really want to learn that aspect about the ocean. I want to learn more about navigating and weather and all that stuff. I want to learn, like going to these remote areas and being able to surf. I want to learn to do it with my family onboard and spend every moment with my son, watching him grow. And then it's great because my brand is like built around being outdoors in these like environments.

• 1:36:24Rich Roll?

  It's all in service to the brand.

• 1:36:25Speaker 00

  Yeah. So I get to like test all this amazing gear and be like, this works, this doesn't work at all. And so I feel like it's like a really good, fun, just everything's kind of flowing together with it.

• 1:36:37Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that's beautiful, man. Where can people buy your Florence gear? Is it in retail stores?

• 1:36:45Speaker 00

  Yeah, we're in a bunch of retail stuff. And then we're online too, which is probably the easiest for most people.

• 1:36:51Rich Roll?

  What's the website for that?

• 1:36:53Speaker 00

  It's FlorenceMarineX.com.

• 1:36:56Rich Roll?

  I think you should create a, a new website just for your photos.

• 1:37:01Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:37:02Rich Roll?

  As a creative project.

• 1:37:03Speaker 00

  I've been, I've been thinking about it, like something. Yeah, it's on my mind.

• 1:37:08Rich Roll?

  There's some beautiful stuff, just in some of the stuff that I saw. Like, it's really nice. I think people would enjoy that.

• 1:37:13Speaker 00

  Thanks, yeah. It's definitely on my mind. I just have to get around it.

• 1:37:18Rich Roll?

  I always love athletes that are also artists or who aren't afraid to also pursue their creative whimsy. You know, I grew up in a time where it's like, you can't be both. Like, you're an athlete, or pick your lane, you know what I mean? And it's always, it's always really cool to see athletes who, who don't buy into that and are like, no, I'm doing both of these things.

• 1:37:42Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think it's just-

• 1:37:43Rich Roll?

  And they don't compete with each other.

• 1:37:44Speaker 00

  Fun to be able to pursue whatever you want to pursue. Life's pretty free. Like, you can, it's like, okay, I like taking photos. I'm gonna start taking some photos, you know? And being okay with that, that's how you surf, or that's how your photos look, or that's who you are.

• 1:37:59Rich Roll?

  All right, man. Well, last thing, let's wrap it up. What is, what is, what is the, the one nugget of wisdom you want to leave people with about your unique life experience, this path that you've taken, the high highs, the low lows? That you want to go out with here. No pressure.

• 1:38:16Speaker 00

  I might say some-

• 1:38:17Rich Roll?

  Do you want to take a breath? We'll do some breath work first.

• 1:38:19Speaker 00

  Yeah, exactly. I might say something completely different next year, or the year after that, because I feel like it's always changing.

• 1:38:25Rich Roll?

  This is where, this is a snapshot of your life. This is where you're at in your life. Like, I feel like you're in a really good place with your life right now. You would have to be to make the decisions that you're making right now.

• 1:38:33Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think a snapshot of where I am right now is like, just knowing a direction, knowing a direction you want to go, having that goal set, but then just enjoying the process to that, whatever that might be. So it's not overthinking of like, I gotta get this job, or I gotta win this goal, but like, going like, okay, that's the direction I want to go, and I'm gonna start here, and then I'm just gonna take it step by step and enjoy whatever that process is. And I think you can apply that to kind of like, anything you're doing, and being okay whether you fail, or maybe you end up doing something completely different, but just having a direction and a starting point and taking a step to do it.

• 1:39:11Rich Roll?

  I think that's solid advice.

• 1:39:14Rich Roll?

  Great to meet you. Thanks for doing this, man. I really appreciate it. Thank you. This was super special and super fun for me. Yeah, fun conversation. Come back anytime. Thank you. And you are an inspiration, dude. Like, I love watching you do your thing. It's, you're touched in many ways, and I'm a fan and wish you well and can't wait to see, you know, what the next chapter of your life looks like. Awesome. Thanks for having me. Cheers.

• 1:39:48Rich Roll?

  That's it for today. Thank you for listening. I truly hope you enjoyed the conversation. To learn more about today's guests, including links and resources related to everything discussed today, visit the episode page at richroll.com, where you can find the entire podcast archive, my books, Finding Ultra, Voicing Change, and The Plant Power Way. If you'd like to support the podcast, the easiest and most impactful thing you can do is to subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, and on YouTube, and leave a review and/or comment. And sharing the show or your favorite episode with friends or on social media is, of course, awesome and very helpful. This show just wouldn't be possible without the

• 1:40:30Rich Roll?

  help of our amazing sponsors who keep this podcast running wild and free. To check out all their amazing offers, head to richroll.com/sponsors. And finally, for podcast updates, special offers on books, and other subjects, please subscribe to our newsletter, which you can find on the footer of any page at richroll.com. Today's show was produced and engineered by Jason Camiolo. The video edition of the podcast was created by Blake Curtis and Morgan McRae, with assistance from our creative director, Dan Drake. Content management by Shana Savoy, copywriting by Ben Pryor. And of course, our theme music was created

• 1:41:10Rich Roll?

  all the way back in 2012 by Tyler Pyatt, Trapper Pyatt, and Harry Mathis. Appreciate the love, love the support. See you back here soon. Peace. Ples. Namaste.