#453: The Random Show — Zen, Investing, Mike Tyson, Artificial Intelligence, and the World's Best Beers

The Random Show — Zen, Investing, Mike Tyson, Artificial Intelligence, and the World's Best Beers | Brought to you by Dry Farm Wines http://dryfarmwines.com/tim, LegalZoom http://legalzoom.com, and Allform http://allform.com/tim. Technologist, serial entrepreneur, world-class investor, self-experimenter, and all-around wild and crazy guy Kevin Rose (@KevinRose https://www.instagram.com/kevinrose/) rejoins me for another episode of “The Random Show.” In this one, we wax poetic over wildlife friends and foes, the folly of facing off against Mike Tyson (even in his 50s), slow donkeys, universal basic income (UBI), breaking the pandemic pajama routine, smoked meats and Wi-Fi grills, Zen and the art of Kevin maintenance, how to hike without being hunted, hoity toity beer, pandemic investing, and much more. Please enjoy! This episode is brought to you by Dry Farm Wines http://dryfarmwines.com/tim. I’m a wine drinker, and I love a few glasses over meals with friends. That said, I hate hangovers. For the last few months, all of the wine in my house has been from Dry Farm Wines. Why? At least in my experience, their wine means more fun with fewer headaches. Dry Farm Wines http://dryfarmwines.com/tim only ships wines that meet very stringent criteria: sugar free (less than 0.15g per glass), lower alcohol (less than 12.5% alcohol), additive free (there are more than 70 FDA-approved wine-making additives), lower sulfites, organic, and produced by small family farms. All Dry Farm Wines http://dryfarmwines.com/tim are laboratory tested for purity standards by a certified, independent enologist, and all of their wines are also backed by a 100% Happiness Promise—they will either replace or refund any wine you do not love. Last but not least, I find delicious wines http://dryfarmwines.com/tim I never would have found otherwise. It’s a lot of fun. Dry Farm Wines http://dryfarmwines.com/tim has a special offer just for listeners of the podcast—an extra bottle in your first box for just one extra penny http://dryfarmwines.com/tim. Check out all the details at DryFarmWines.com/Tim http://dryfarmwines.com/tim. * This episode is also brought to you by LegalZoom https://www.legalzoom.com/. I’ve used this service for many of my businesses, as have quite a few of the icons on this podcast, including Automattic CEO Matt Mullenweg of WordPress fame. LegalZoom https://www.legalzoom.com/ is a reliable resource that more than a million people have already trusted for all kinds of legal needs, including setting up wills, proper trademark searches, forming LLCs, setting up non-profits, and finding simple cease-and-desist letter templates. LegalZoom https://www.legalzoom.com/ is not a law firm, but it does have a network of independent attorneys available in most states who can give you advice on the best way to get started, provide contract reviews, and otherwise help you run your business with complete transparency and up-front pricing. Learn more at LegalZoom.com http://legalzoom.com/. LegalZoom http://legalzoom.com/, where life meets legal. * This episode is also brought to you by Allform http://allform.com/tim! If you’ve been listening to the podcast for a while, you’ve probably heard me talk about Helix Sleep mattresses, which I’ve been using since 2017. They just launched a new company called Allform http://allform.com/tim, and they’re making premium, customizable sofas and chairs shipped right to your door — at a fraction of the cost of traditional stores. You can pick your fabric (and they’re all spill, stain, and scratch-resistant), the sofa color, the color of the legs, and the sofa size and shape to make sure it’s perfect for you and your home. Allform http://allform.com/tim arrives in just 3–7 days, and you can assemble it yourself in a few minutes — no tools needed. To find your perfect sofa, check out Allform.com/Tim http://allform.com/TIM. Allform is offering 20% off all orders to you, my dear listeners, at Allform.com/Tim http://allform.com/TIM. *** If you enjoy the podcast, would you please consider leaving a short review on Apple Podcasts https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-tim-ferriss-show/id863897795?mt=2/iTunes? It takes less than 60 seconds, and it really makes a difference in helping to convince hard-to-get guests. For show notes and past guests, please visit tim.blog/podcast https://tim.blog/podcast/?utm_source=podcast&utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=podcast-description. Sign up for Tim’s email newsletter (“5-Bullet Friday”) at tim.blog/friday https://go.tim.blog/5-bullet-friday-1/. For transcripts of episodes, go to tim.blog/transcripts http://tim.blog/transcripts. Interested in sponsoring the podcast? Please fill out the form at tim.blog/sponsor http://tim.blog/sponsor. Discover Tim’s books: tim.blog/books http://tim.blog/books. Follow Tim: Twitter: twitter.com/tferriss https://twitter.com/tferriss Instagram: instagram.com/timferriss https://instagram.com/timferriss/ Facebook: facebook.com/timferriss https://www.facebook.com/TimFerriss/ YouTube: youtube.com/timferriss https://www.youtube.com/timferriss Past guests on The Tim Ferriss Show http://tim.blog/podcast include Jerry Seinfeld https://tim.blog/2020/12/08/jerry-seinfeld/, Hugh Jackman https://tim.blog/2020/06/26/hugh-jackman/, Dr. Jane Goodall https://tim.blog/2020/04/16/jane-goodall/, LeBron James https://tim.blog/2018/11/27/lebron-james-mike-mancias/, Kevin Hart https://tim.blog/2020/05/20/kevin-hart/, Doris Kearns Goodwin https://tim.blog/2018/09/07/doris-kearns-goodwin-leadership/, Jamie Foxx https://tim.blog/2015/12/06/jamie-foxx/, Matthew McConaughey https://tim.blog/2020/10/19/matthew-mcconaughey/, Esther Perel https://tim.blog/2017/05/21/esther-perel/, Elizabeth Gilbert https://tim.blog/2020/05/08/elizabeth-gilbert/, Terry Crews https://tim.blog/2017/12/20/terry-crews-how-to-have-do-and-be-all-you-want/, Sia https://tim.blog/2020/08/12/sia/, Yuval Noah Harari https://tim.blog/2020/10/27/yuval-noah-harari/, Malcolm Gladwell https://tim.blog/2016/06/21/malcolm-gladwell/, Madeleine Albright https://tim.blog/2020/05/27/secretary-madeleine-albright/, Cheryl Strayed https://tim.blog/2017/03/30/cheryl-strayed/, Jim Collins https://tim.blog/2019/02/18/jim-collins/, Mary Karr, https://tim.blog/2020/11/11/mary-karr/ Maria Popova https://tim.blog/2014/10/21/brain-pickings/, Sam Harris https://tim.blog/2020/05/15/sam-harris-2/, Michael Phelps https://tim.blog/2021/01/21/michael-phelps-grant-hackett/, Bob Iger https://tim.blog/2020/01/16/bob-iger/, Edward Norton https://tim.blog/2019/10/31/edward-norton-motherless-brooklyn/, Arnold Schwarzenegger https://tim.blog/2015/02/02/arnold-schwarzenegger/, Neil Strauss https://tim.blog/2014/06/24/neil-strauss/, Ken Burns https://tim.blog/2019/09/12/ken-burns/, Maria Sharapova https://tim.blog/2017/08/26/maria-sharapova/, Marc Andreessen https://tim.blog/2016/05/29/marc-andreessen/, Neil Gaiman https://tim.blog/2019/03/28/neil-gaiman/, Neil de Grasse Tyson https://tim.blog/2019/10/03/neil-degrasse-tyson/, Jocko Willink https://tim.blog/2016/09/21/jocko-willink-on-discipline-leadership-and-overcoming-doubt/, Daniel Ek https://tim.blog/2020/12/03/daniel-ek/, Kelly Slater https://tim.blog/2020/09/08/kelly-slater/, Dr. Peter Attia https://tim.blog/2019/11/27/peter-attia-fasting-metformin-longevity/, Seth Godin https://tim.blog/2016/02/10/seth-godin/, Howard Marks https://tim.blog/2018/09/25/howard-marks/, Dr. Brené Brown https://tim.blog/2020/02/06/brene-brown-striving-self-acceptance-saving-marriages/, Eric Schmidt https://tim.blog/2019/04/09/eric-schmidt/, Michael Lewis https://tim.blog/2020/05/01/michael-lewis/, Joe Gebbia https://tim.blog/2018/03/08/joe-gebbia-co-founder-of-airbnb/, Michael Pollan https://tim.blog/2018/05/06/michael-pollan-how-to-change-your-mind/, Dr. Jordan Peterson https://tim.blog/2021/03/01/jordan-peterson/, Vince Vaughn https://tim.blog/2017/05/31/vince-vaughn/, Brian Koppelman https://tim.blog/2020/04/23/brian-koppelman/, Ramit Sethi https://tim.blog/2019/05/07/ramit-sethi/, Dax Shepard https://tim.blog/2020/11/18/dax-shepard/, Tony Robbins https://tim.blog/2014/10/15/money-master-the-game/, Jim Dethmer https://tim.blog/2020/05/18/jim-dethmer/, Dan Harris https://tim.blog/2020/11/19/dan-harris/, Ray Dalio https://tim.blog/2017/09/13/ray-dalio/, Naval Ravikant https://tim.blog/2015/08/18/the-evolutionary-angel-naval-ravikant/, Vitalik Buterin https://tim.blog/2021/03/08/vitalik-buterin-naval-ravikant/, Elizabeth Lesser https://tim.blog/2021/03/16/elizabeth-lesser/, Amanda Palmer https://tim.blog/2019/04/18/amanda-palmer-2/, Katie Haun https://tim.blog/2021/02/18/katie-haun/, Sir Richard Branson https://tim.blog/2017/10/09/richard-branson/, Chuck Palahniuk https://tim.blog/2020/09/02/chuck-palahniuk/, Arianna Huffington https://tim.blog/2017/10/18/arianna-huffington/, Reid Hoffman https://tim.blog/2015/08/31/the-oracle-of-silicon-valley-reid-hoffman-plus-michael-mccullough/, Bill Burr https://tim.blog/2017/09/17/bill-burr/, Whitney Cummings https://tim.blog/2015/06/26/whitney-cummings/, Rick Rubin https://tim.blog/2015/05/15/rick-rubin/, Dr. Vivek Murthy https://tim.blog/2020/03/26/vivek-murthy/, Darren Aronofsky https://tim.blog/2017/09/09/darren-aronofsky/, and many more. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Tim Ferriss?

  At this altitude, I can run flat out for a half mile before my hands start to shake.

• 0:06Speaker 01

  Can I ask you a personal question?

• 0:08Speaker 02

  Now would be seen in a perfect time.

• 0:12Speaker 01

  I'm a cybernetic organism, living tissue over metal endoskeleton.

• 0:24Tim Ferriss?

  This episode is brought to you by Allform. If you've been listening to this podcast for a while, you've probably heard me talk about Helix Sleep and their mattresses, which I've been using since 2017. I have two of them upstairs from where I'm sitting at this moment. And now Helix has gone beyond the bedroom and started making sofas. They just launched a new company called Allform, A-L-L-F-O-R-M, and they're making premium customizable sofas and chairs shipped right to your door at a fraction of the cost of traditional stores. So I'm sitting in my living room right now, and it's entirely Allform furniture. I've got two chairs, I've got an ottoman, and I have an L-sectional couch. And I'll come back to that. You can pick your fabric. They're all spill, stain, and scratch resistant.

• 1:05Tim Ferriss?

  The sofa color, the color of the legs, the sofa size, the shape to make sure it's perfect for you in your home. Also, Allform arrives in just three to seven days, and you can assemble it all yourself in a few minutes. No tools needed. I was quite astonished by how modular and easy these things fit together, kind of like Lego pieces. They've got armchairs, love seats, all the way up to an eight-seat sectional, so there's something for everyone. You can also start small and kind of build on top of it if you wanted to get a smaller couch and then build out on it, which is actually, in a way, what I did, because I can turn my L-sectional couch into a normal straight couch and then with a separate ottoman in a matter of about 60 seconds. It's pretty rad. So I mentioned I have all of these different things in this room. I use the natural leg finish, which is their lightest color, and I dig it.

• 1:49Tim Ferriss?

  I mean, I've been using these things hours and hours and hours every single day, so. I am using what I am sharing with you guys. And if getting a sofa without trying it in store sounds risky, you don't need to worry. Allform sofas are delivered directly to your home with fast, free shipping and you get 100 days to decide if you want to keep it. That's more than three months and if you don't love it, they'll pick it up for free and give you a full refund. Your sofa frame also has a forever warranty. That's literally forever. So check it out. Take a look. They've got all sorts of cool stuff to choose from. I was skeptical and it actually worked. It worked much better than I could have imagined and I'm very, very happy. So to find your perfect sofa, check out allform.com/tim. That's A-L-L-F-O-R-M.com/tim.

• 2:33Tim Ferriss?

  Allform is offering 20% off all orders to you, my dear listeners, at allform.com/tim. Make sure to use the code TIM at checkout. That's allform.com/tim and use code TIM at checkout.

• 2:49Tim Ferriss?

  This episode is brought to you by LegalZoom. It's a whole new world out there and we're all facing new challenges. You may need legal help to overcome some of yours and that's where LegalZoom fits in. Maybe you've been wondering about the best way to protect your family or maybe you're thinking about starting a business, but you don't know the best way to do it. Don't let legal questions hold you back. LegalZoom has been dedicated to helping you find the right solutions for nearly 20 years. If you're looking to protect your family with a will or a living trust or something else, or you're thinking about the right way to start a business with an LLC, nonprofit or more, LegalZoom's got you covered. It's easy to get started online and if you need guidance, their network of attorneys can provide advice to ensure you make the right choices. And since LegalZoom isn't a law firm, you won't get charged by the hour. So check it out.

• 3:31Tim Ferriss?

  Visit LegalZoom.com today to take care of the important things that need to get done. That's LegalZoom.com. LegalZoom, where life meets legal. This episode is brought to you by AG1, the daily foundational nutritional supplement that supports whole body health. I do get asked a lot, what I would take if I could only take one supplement? And the true answer is invariably AG1. It simply covers a ton of bases. I usually drink it in the mornings and frequently take their travel packs with me on the road. So what is AG1? AG1 is a science-driven formulation of vitamins, protein. And whole food sourced nutrients in a single scoop AG1 gives you support for the brain, gut and immune system. So take ownership of your health and try AG1 today.

• 4:15Tim Ferriss?

  You will get a free one year supply of vitamin D and five free AG1 travel packs with your first subscription purchase. So learn more, check it out, go to drink AG1.com/tim. That's drink AG1, the number one, drink AG1.com/tim. Last time, drink AG1.com/tim. Check it out.

• 4:40Tim Ferriss?

  Well, hello, boys and girls, ladies and germs. This is Tim Ferriss and welcome to another episode of the Tim Ferriss Show. This is a special edition, The Random Show with Kevin Rose, my good friend, a serial tech founder and entrepreneur and investor of all different types. He really spans the spectrum, does a lot of things. And in this episode, we talk about many things. It is called The Random Show for a reason, after all, surfing the waves of COVID, deleting social media apps, Zen quickenings, strange beers Kevin's been enjoying, some of the best in the world, it turns out, for not that much money, grilling, investing, we talk about investing towards the end, and we cover a lot of ground, a few caveats, we are not

• 5:22Tim Ferriss?

  registered investment advisors or professionals of any type, we are not medical doctors, we don't play either on the internet, and anything you find in this conversation is for informational purposes only. So before taking any action on anything in this, please consult your local qualified professional. And with all that said, please enjoy this wide ranging and rambling conversation with Kevin Rose.

• 5:54Tim Ferriss?

  Here we are again.

• 5:56Speaker 03

  Here we are again. I love it.

• 5:58Tim Ferriss?

  Good to see you. You're in the, the, the dark cavernous, is that a man cave? Is that a bar? Where are you located?

• 6:06Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's just, I'm just in the-

• 6:07Tim Ferriss?

  I'm in a very light colored alternate universe.

• 6:10Speaker 03

  Yeah, you, you look a lot more peaceful than my kind of dungeon. I'm, I'm down here in the, uh, this is the bar, actually, but it's now it's office. It was a bar. It was a kind of a cool place to hang out and have people, friends over. But in COVID times, it's an office and I got a mic hooked up here and all my computer crap and mail and all the other stuff. So it's

• 6:32Tim Ferriss?

  I feel like all of your BDSM dungeon equipment is hiding

• 6:35Speaker 03

  Dude, that is you. That is you. Do you want to talk about that?

• 6:39Tim Ferriss?

  No, no, look, look, I am actually in my acupuncture office. You may recognize the acupuncture shelves behind me. I am in fact, in an acupuncture office, but it's not mine.

• 6:49Speaker 03

  Are you just renting one out or what are you doing?

• 6:52Tim Ferriss?

  I'm borrowing fast wifi in an undisclosed rural location where my internet speed is otherwise 0.5 megabits per second, which doesn't allow us to do calls like this. I am on a farm and in the middle of the woods, I have a bear living about, well, in fact, probably hundreds of feet from me at times.

• 7:15Speaker 03

  Like a real full on bear?

• 7:17Tim Ferriss?

  Yes, a huge black bear, but it's a huge bear. It's a gigantic, healthy black bear.

• 7:22Speaker 03

  Like a friendly trained one kind of thing or?

• 7:24Tim Ferriss?

  Not trained, no tricycles, no tricks, no dancing and on the sidewalk for pennies. This is a wild black bear. We haven't yet met. I've met fox, coyote, all sorts of other animals, but have not yet met the bear. Just seen photographs that my friends have taken.

• 7:44Speaker 03

  Have you done bear training?

• 7:46Tim Ferriss?

  I have not done any bear training.

• 7:48Speaker 03

  So that's a real thing. Yeah. No, I haven't, but our mutual friend, Mike Mazur, sent me photos last weekend. He went up and did some, he lives in Montana and he did some bear training. Like they bring real loud bears up that tackle you.

• 8:00Tim Ferriss?

  That's where he's like wrestling with big dudes with beards. Is that?

• 8:03Speaker 03

  Pretty much.

• 8:04Tim Ferriss?

  Most of the time?

• 8:04Speaker 03

  San Francisco, San Francisco style. Exactly.

• 8:08Tim Ferriss?

  I think I did otter training when I was in San Francisco, but no real legitimate bear training.

• 8:12Speaker 03

  I've done raccoon and squirrel. Those are my, my two certifications.

• 8:16Tim Ferriss?

  If, if people have not actually seen Kevin's raccoon video, he's not lying. He, he didn't actually.

• 8:24Tim Ferriss?

  Do any raccoon training, but you got thrown into the swimming pool, like turned into an Olympic swimmer in moments to defend your, your, your little pup toaster. People can search Kevin Rose raccoon and get to that. I haven't done bear training. If you're in Montana, you need legit bear training because you have terrestrial great white sharks, AKA grizzly bears, which are very, very different from the supposedly friendly and skinnish. The black bears are pretty chill, right? They seem like they avoid humans and tend not to prey upon humans. So that's a good thing. You carry bear spray though, I take it? I do not currently carry bear spray. I make a lot of noise when I'm hiking,

• 9:07Tim Ferriss?

  but that's about it at this point. Probably should do more research, but one of the things I've been getting into is plant and suppose this would be a subset of that, but tree identification. So that's been something I've been spending a lot of time on. I've been doing probably two to three hours of hiking in the woods per day and that involves a whole bunch of gear aside from my, my lack of bear spray. So I wear a limitic pants. They have permethrin in the fabric. So you avoid ticks, which is super important if you're anywhere, certainly on the east coast and anywhere else. And then have you ever seen a GoRuck rucksack? I believe they're based in, in San Francisco. No, I don't believe so.

• 9:48Tim Ferriss?

  There are backpacks designed by, well, the CEO and founder, who's former special forces to carry customized weight plates. So for a, a replacement to running, because I like to think that I like to want to run, but I don't actually enjoy running very much and it bothers my knees. You can do these weighted hikes where you'll have say 20 or 30 or more pounds on your back, but the backpacks are specifically designed to carry these square weight plates that sit high on your upper back so that you can have better ergonomics as you hike. And it's been awesome. I'll just.

• 10:30Speaker 03

  I was like, I'm curious about that because I have a weighted vest that I have, you know, the standard one like you order on Amazon and I was used on the treadmill sometimes just for like a super low grade, but you know, adds an extra 15 or 20 pounds. How is this, I take it it's just position, the weights are positioned better so that you don't hurt your back?

• 10:49Tim Ferriss?

  The way that it's pitched, and I've, I've only used a weight vest once, just as a quick side note. So when I used a weight vest, I had no point of reference. This was probably 2008 or 2009 when I was working on the four hour body. And I thought, I can work with a weight vest. And this was, I think it was before they used weight vests in the CrossFit Games and so on. And I had no idea how much weight to use. And I was like, oh, I'll just get like 50 or 60 pounds. That seems like a good, a good starting point. So I put on 60 pounds and I would usually go for like a three mile walk in San Francisco and I got three miles out and I was like, I'm fucking done. I can't do this. And so I left the vest on the side walk and walked back. I couldn't, I

• 11:33Tim Ferriss?

  couldn't hack it. It was also in the summer, but if you read the website, would be led to believe that the vests have more of a suffocating effect because you also are carrying weight on chest. These are intended to mimic more of long distance hiking ergonomics. Yeah, right. It's actually piggybacking, but with the weight higher up on your back. So I've found it surprisingly comfortable. I have some spinal issues in my upper thoracic back. So let's just call it lower cervical and wearing backpacks for long periods really bothers my back. But the,

• 12:14Tim Ferriss?

  these bags actually allow me to train usually for no more than about an hour and a half without any subsequent back pain, as long as I don't overdo it. So it's been, it's been really nice to build up the lower legs. I'm also jumping rope, using both in a way to prepare for possible trail running and feeling great, feeling just fantastic. I'll listen to audiobooks or do phone calls typically while doing that.

• 12:41Speaker 03

  Two questions. One, I had always heard, at least back in the day, like when you're backpacking, they'd always tell you get a backpack where all the weight is kind of pushed down to your hips. You're carrying it on your hips and it's not so much on your back. Why wouldn't you want something like that? And to your jump rope point, did you hear that Tyson's gonna fight again?

• 12:59Tim Ferriss?

  I did hear that Tyson's gonna fight again.

• 13:01Speaker 03

  That's crazy.

• 13:02Tim Ferriss?

  It is crazy.

• 13:03Speaker 03

  Well, start with the hip stuff.

• 13:05Tim Ferriss?

  All right. So the hip stuff, I would imagine if you are carrying a lot more weight, or if you're just hiking for efficiency and not as a workout, that probably makes a lot of sense. What I have found personally is that if I have a backpack with a weight strap and shoulder straps, maybe I'm just using them incorrectly, but it tends to pull me backwards and I jump my head forward quite a lot. There are training recommendations and guidelines on this, this site. I think it's just go rock.com. And I follow those. So they encourage you not to lean forward. They encourage you to stand up straight. And very deliberately do not have a chest strap or a waist harness. I'm sure you could train with

• 13:46Tim Ferriss?

  other approaches, but the fact of the matter is my, let's just call it upper middle back, always hurt after a short period of time of carrying backpacks. Wherever I would be walking around in the city, whether it was San Francisco years ago, or in Austin or elsewhere. And doing this, I got a great workout, but without that subsequent, it's really spinal pain, basically the musculature around the spine, or maybe even the connective tissue.

• 14:12Speaker 03

  I've had some of that. So when it, when it seizes up too, I don't know how many times you've had your back seize on you, where you're like, you just can't move. Oh my God. It's like, it's the worst.

• 14:22Tim Ferriss?

  It is. Yeah.

• 14:22Speaker 03

  And it's like, I have two little monkeys like hanging on me all day long with little girls, you know? And I'm just like, they just tweak you one way. Or now like I'm in my 40s, if I cough my, with my head pointed the wrong direction, my back is just like, it's like seizes up on you.

• 14:36Tim Ferriss?

  Well, I feel like that's a good segue to what lazy bastards we are compared to Tyson, who's in his 50s, isn't he?

• 14:45Speaker 03

  I know. He's like six, almost 60. So let me ask you a question, like straight up, $10 million. No, no, no, that's not enough money for Tim Ferriss. Tim Ferriss, $200 million, no bullshitting, no falling to the ground. Would you step in the ring with Tyson today?

• 15:04Tim Ferriss?

  Absolutely not. No, I wouldn't. There's no fucking way.

• 15:07Speaker 03

  You don't think you could win?

• 15:09Tim Ferriss?

  Well, number one, absolutely would not win.

• 15:12Speaker 03

  Did you have a black belt?

• 15:14Tim Ferriss?

  I mean, yeah, in judo. I mean, it's sport judo. It's very different from like, raised in, I think it was both Brownsville. With, you know,

• 15:23Speaker 03

  How many rounds could you go?

• 15:26Tim Ferriss?

  Oh, absolutely. If we're talking boxing or anything, unless I jumped guard and just hung on for dear life like a koala bear, I would not last one round. I probably wouldn't last one minute.

• 15:38Speaker 03

  I think you could last one round.

• 15:40Tim Ferriss?

  I don't think so, man. If you covered up completely, like you just put your arms in full turtle position and just let him punch you in your arms, your fucking head would fly off. Yeah, I, most people have not been hit by a trained fighter. I've been hit by trained fighters and it's a lot worse than you think it is. It's a lot worse. And as someone who's had head trauma before and concussions, because I was never a very good striker. I was, I was a better grappler and I wasn't a great grappler either, but I was, I was decent with a lot of wrestling background and judo and so on. But I would just get whacked in the head. Have you ever seen Spaceballs?

• 16:21Speaker 03

  Yes, of course.

• 16:23Tim Ferriss?

  Where, uh, what dark helmet is held at bay with one arm and he's swinging and isn't hitting anything. I was basically dark helmet whenever I sparred because I was heavy for my height. And so I'd end up with these goddamn six foot two, like 150 pounders who would just tee off on my head from a distance, nonstop. And I ended up, I think with some long-term damage and consequences from that. So traumatic brain injury, I have zero interest in these days. So I would not, for any price.

• 16:55Speaker 03

  Not even if it was like grappling, like MMA style with Tyson? The problem is.

• 17:00Tim Ferriss?

  I wouldn't risk it. I wouldn't risk it, man. He would definitely get in one good shot.

• 17:03Speaker 03

  That's right. That's right. All, that's all it takes, right? Like he, you could try and then he just needs to get the right angle and then you're out. It's just over.

• 17:11Tim Ferriss?

  The other thing to remember too, is that speed goes with age. I mean, speed is one of the first things. If you watch, say, Roy Jones Jr. Or a lot of these fighters who had a winning style predicated on speed, once they lose half a step, they start getting knocked out. Tyson was very, very fast, but he's also ungodly strong and he's got old man strength

• 17:36Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah.

• 17:37Tim Ferriss?

  Has not diminished.

• 17:38Speaker 03

  Have you watched some of his videos?

• 17:40Tim Ferriss?

  I have watched some of his.

• 17:43Speaker 03

  Back in shape videos?

• 17:44Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, his pad and knit work videos.

• 17:46Speaker 03

  Oh, God.

• 17:48Tim Ferriss?

  And, uh, well, we'll put some in the show notes for people to, to check out. I mean, if they just search, you know, Mike Tyson new videos, I'm sure they'll pop right up. Uh, they're terrifying. They're really, really terrifying because I've, I've been hit by some decent strikers and I mean, you feel afterwards, you're the, the bruising of your brain. I mean, your brain is bound ricocheted off the sides of your skull like a big ice cube being shaken in a fucking shaker. And that's not good for you. You know, it can contribute to depression. It can contribute to dementia, early onset Alzheimer's. Like I am so uninterested.

• 18:28Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 18:29Tim Ferriss?

  I'll take my chances with the bear over Tyson anytime.

• 18:32Speaker 03

  I don't know. Four, four hour body Tim would have, would have, might have been interested a few, few years ago.

• 18:36Tim Ferriss?

  Four hour body Tim is like Evel Knievel, right? Like I'm going to jump Grand Canyon and just wipe out into the wall, break every bone in my body. And at the time, I think I just assumed that I could automatically repair all of that. And the fact is, uh, not to imply that there's a lot of that in the book. I don't think there is. Uh, but there's a certain sense of immortality or invincibility that you have when you're younger, which you, you learn is very misplaced when you get a little bit older. And that's not to play the crotchety all like, oh my God, once it's 30, it's all downhill. Once it's 35, it's all downhill. You always meet lazy people who say that shit.

• 19:16Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 19:16Tim Ferriss?

  They just don't want to, they just don't want to put in the work because it takes a little more work when you're not in hormonal nirvana to, you know, keep that little python that swallowed a goat physique in a like dad bod at bay. Uh, but. The fact of the matter is, like, without higher testosterone levels and so on, your recovery time and, and everything else is, is extended, right? So I am so uninterested in injuries these days, especially during COVID, right? The last thing I want to do is put up some home-based parkour course and like break a wrist trying to scale the garage and then have to go to the emergency room. No way. No, thank you. Roy Jones Jr. on exhibition fight with Mike Tyson.

• 20:01Tim Ferriss?

  You don't know what Mike might do. Is it Roy Jones Jr.? That would be a huge weight class mismatch. Let me just fact check this real fast.

• 20:08Speaker 03

  But Roy Jones Jr. was boxing not that long ago, right?

• 20:12Tim Ferriss?

  It's been a while.

• 20:14Speaker 03

  It is, it is Roy Jones Jr.

• 20:15Tim Ferriss?

  Oh, it is Roy Jones Jr. All right. Eight-round exhibition fight. This should be super, super interesting. Roy Jones Jr. I watched a lot. And these are both fighters who capitalized on incredible speed. All right. And now they're older. They're both strong. Tyson absolutely has a strength advantage.

• 20:36Speaker 03

  Jesus, Tyson is 5'10", 240. Roy Jones Jr. is 193. I don't know what his height is. Doesn't say here. But 193 to 240, that's a big weight difference.

• 20:50Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah. You really don't want to get hit by either of these guys. So to make that exhibition, looks like an exhibition fight on September 12th, that's really soon, that Roy Jones Jr. is gonna have to dance. He's really gonna have to dance. And I don't know the last time that he had a dance card with stakes quite this high. I mean, and he might be laughing all the way to the bank, but honestly, it's like, if Mike Tyson hits you hard enough, you're gonna have trouble finding the bank.

• 21:20Speaker 03

  Yeah, exactly.

• 21:24Tim Ferriss?

  Oh my God. I'll definitely watch that fight though. Are you kidding?

• 21:27Speaker 03

  It's crazy. It's good to see him back though, man. You know, the cool thing about it is I saw Tyson being interviewed and he pledged 100% of the proceeds to charity.

• 21:39Speaker 03

  He doesn't care about making any money off of this. He said, that's not where his happiness comes from anymore. Like, it just seemed like really like a different version of Tyson that was refreshing to see, you know? Seems like he's done a lot of, a lot of work on himself.

• 21:53Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, it seems that way. I mean, it's, I imagine.

• 21:56Speaker 03

  He's not biting off ears anymore, I don't think.

• 21:57Tim Ferriss?

  Not biting off ears. That's a good start in self-development. Stop biting off ears. And it seems like he's done a lot of work. I saw a video on, which was an interview of Tyson describing his five MEO, five methoxy DMT experience.

• 22:17Speaker 03

  Oh, crazy.

• 22:18Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, yeah. And I, I don't know who the, the sitters were for that, but you either have to be really, really, really good with lots of safeguards, or you have to be incredibly fucking stupid to be in a room where you volunteered to hold down Mike Tyson when he's on five MEO DMT. Fuck that. No thanks.

• 22:40Speaker 03

  Yeah, you, you get a big padded room and you kind of have to do it via, like, through the glass.

• 22:48Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, exactly. All right, Mikey. Here's the two, here's the tube through the window.

• 22:54Speaker 03

  Exactly.

• 22:55Tim Ferriss?

  You're gonna do great. Oh my God.

• 22:58Speaker 03

  It's like the Hulk when he like erupts and just like, you know, you can't contain him.

• 23:02Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, you don't want to be, you don't want to be anywhere close to that. So what have you been up to, man? It's been actually quite a while since we've caught up. It's been at least a few weeks since we had a proper, proper conversation.

• 23:13Speaker 03

  Yeah, I know. And then our last podcast that we did, I mean, we were just in like a horrible place. Like, our last podcast was when COVID was really starting to hit and we're both like, well, we'll see, I hope to see you sometime. You know, like, we thought the end was near. Lisa, you still kind of feel that way though, huh?

• 23:31Tim Ferriss?

  Well. Not the end, but lots of changes for sure. I'm less concerned about the virus wiping out everyone, which I didn't think was going to happen to begin with, but I didn't like the, at the time, what we understood to be the characteristics and kinetics of the virus. Still very, very glad that I made the public statements and published the blog posts that I did, which I still stand by. But I am very concerned about the, the secondary and third order effects of economic destruction and high rates of unemployment, very understandable

• 24:16Tim Ferriss?

  anger and frustration and strong emotions coming from not having work, not having a sense of purpose for millions of people. And also just having a very, very polarized political machines who are capitalizing on that heightened emotion to try to further their aims on, on all sides. This is, this is, this is a defining, I would say, characteristic of a sort of opportunistic political maneuvering. So I'm, I'm very concerned about the country.

• 24:58Tim Ferriss?

  So I'm not, the, the game is far from over. If we had a working vaccine tomorrow and were prepared to distribute, what percentage of the US do you think would volunteer, even if they were told they, that it were mandatory, who would comply? What percentage of the population do you think would comply and actually get a vaccine? And since we don't have any state to state restrictions in terms of travel, I mean, there are recommended 14 day Right. self-quarantines and so on, but there's no real enforcement. There's no real follow-up. That's right. Yeah. So what, I mean, what percentage of the country do you think would actually take a vaccine? Fully distributed, thought to be effective?

• 25:41Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, I think I guess it also depends on the window of time that you're you're talking about, right? I mean, I think that a lot more people will take it a month three versus month one.

• 25:50Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 25:51Speaker 03

  So I would say that does it? Well, I guess my the question, though, is, does it really matter? Like, you and I are going to take it, right? Like, there'll be a certain subset of people that won't. And, you know, it's like you're kind of rolling the dice with your own life. And at that point, there's you've done all you can do.

• 26:10Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 26:11Speaker 03

  I mean, it sounds horrible to say that, but like, how do you you can't force someone to like, stick a needle in their arm. So you have to do the best you can at education, at demonstrating safety and efficacy, and then, you know, hope for the best. I would say, though, it's probably going to be more than you would think.

• 26:30Speaker 03

  Well, what percentage of folks get the flu shot every year? I guess that would be a good proxy.

• 26:35Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, I don't know.

• 26:36Speaker 03

  That's the answer. And then and then I would say it will be higher than that because flu is very optional for a lot of people, not as deadly. So, yeah, it's hard. It's hard to back into a number like that. But I would imagine it would be somewhere around 70% or greater. Would you think you're probably thinking like 20%?

• 26:55Tim Ferriss?

  I'm thinking 20 to 30% by month three. That would be my that would be my guess. That's what I would bet.

• 27:00Speaker 03

  Are you doing it month one?

• 27:02Tim Ferriss?

  You know, this is this is where we're going to get ourselves into trouble. I'm not a medical professional, not giving medical advice. I would not want to be the first monkey shot into space. But we might edit this out later because I also don't want to discourage people from getting a vaccine. But if we're breaking every land speed record in developing a vaccine for a virus that we understand very incompletely. You know, I have my own misgivings. I do think vaccines are incredibly valuable to the individual and to community and humanity overall.

• 27:42Tim Ferriss?

  And we simply don't have a lot of data on this virus. So.

• 27:47Speaker 03

  Well, to your point about the economy, though, I think that's going to be the difficult piece of this in getting folks back to work and getting the average consumer to trust restaurants again, to trust bars again, to trust all concert venues, all the things that we used to do to to drive up the economy. And, you know, I just can't see it bouncing back as fast as people have said it's going to.

• 28:12Tim Ferriss?

  I think I think we're in minimum, you know, a year and a half, two year.

• 28:18Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 28:18Tim Ferriss?

  Tough, tough trench.

• 28:20Speaker 03

  Yeah. So.

• 28:21Tim Ferriss?

  As you put it, as you poetically put it to me some time ago, I think we're in for a slow donkey. I think.

• 28:29Tim Ferriss?

  I think we are looking at a slow donkey here.

• 28:32Speaker 03

  Yeah, sometimes people quote you and you're like, there's no way I said that. Like, I definitely said that. That sounds like something I would say. So, well, here's the crazy thing, man. Like, I've been thinking more about universal basic income. And, and the one thing, the biggest, at first I was like, no, there's no way. Why do we need it? Seems like a waste of money. You know, it's like just giving out money doesn't seem to be a solution for anything. And then, two weeks ago, a new API came out from a group called OpenAI, which is this artificial intelligence group. Have you seen anything created by this GPT-3? Have you seen this at all?

• 29:11Tim Ferriss?

  I've seen Chris Saka's experiments with it. I haven't played with it yet. He's, he seems incredibly impressed. I don't know what his involvement is, if any, but.

• 29:21Speaker 03

  It's, it's nuts. So what I saw.

• 29:24Tim Ferriss?

  It seems nuts.

• 29:25Speaker 03

  It was some of the demos that I've seen lately are, you give the AI a couple websites. So you go like, here's a website I like, and here's another website I like. Now, design me a website that looks like those websites, but is about a text-based messaging app. And it literally created a beautiful, ready-to-go, fully-designed website in like, minutes that it came up with. And it's and you're like, well, there goes all the graphic design jobs like, you know, like, maybe not in the next six months or next year, but that is where it's going. And like, if that's going to be on a whole, like, AI is going to kill so many technical jobs and it's it's just crazy. I don't see any way out of this.

• 30:10Tim Ferriss?

  Like, you have to become like a basket weaver or a potter or a or a cult leader. Those are.

• 30:16Speaker 03

  That's immediately, that's the first thing Daria said. I was talking to my wife about it. She was like, you know, it's going to be down to like artisan craft, like the AI can't do like touched by human hands. And I'm like, well, yeah, but like, how many people need baskets? Like, how many, you know what I mean? Like, how many artisan, like, artists do we need to be doing this? Like, I just don't know that there's that many jobs there. So maybe something like universal basic income does make sense when eventually that hits. And I worry the talk, the talk now on the street is that a lot of these jobs just aren't going to come back.

• 30:51Tim Ferriss?

  You know, the talk on the street, that's a phrase I haven't heard.

• 30:54Speaker 03

  You mean like the street, like Wall Street?

• 30:56Tim Ferriss?

  Oh, okay.

• 30:58Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 30:58Tim Ferriss?

  Got it.

• 31:00Speaker 03

  But word on the street or around the corner, neighbors are saying.

• 31:06Tim Ferriss?

  I got it. All right. Yeah, the jobs aren't going to come back.

• 31:08Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 31:09Tim Ferriss?

  I mean, if this is like V zero, right? If this is rough draft, it's hugely, I mean, it's awesome in the like 18th century sense of the word, right? I mean, it's awe inspiring and kind of staggering in its implications and also really terrifying.

• 31:28Speaker 03

  Mm hmm. It is. It's like writing books now. Like, you're going to be soon out of work. Did you see some of the stuff it's writing? Like, you can say, write me a bedtime story. And then it just goes and creates these beautiful, like, you could take that, tweak a couple words and like, put your name on it. And people will do that. And it's not going to show up again in any plagiarism dictionaries or anything like that. It'll, but it'll be like 90% AI written.

• 31:53Tim Ferriss?

  So I mean, that would be a way to rough draft stuff, right? As, as, as I, although I have to imagine it's pulling from other sources that might end up then having claims of plagiarism, but maybe not.

• 32:08Speaker 03

  From other sources than the terms of creating its, its mental model and understanding model of the data. So, but so are we all, right? Like, the only reason you can write your books is because you're pulling from all your childhood experiences and all the other crap. So it's the same.

• 32:21Tim Ferriss?

  All the crappy childhood experiences also. Saka, for those people who don't know, very, very, very successful investor, previous operator, first fund of delivered something like 250X, I guess, and has done very well. He drafted a number of tweets and then let OpenAI, but that's not the phrase he used. It's what was the other term that you used?

• 32:49Speaker 03

  Oh, GPT-3.

• 32:51Tim Ferriss?

  GPT-3. What does that refer to?

• 32:53Speaker 03

  Uh, that's just their most recent iteration of this type of technology. It was two and now it's three. I don't know what the GPT stands for exactly. I can find out, though.

• 33:01Tim Ferriss?

  Catchy, catchy. First, I thought he was talking about Grand Theft Auto and he'd smoked too much weed. I wasn't sure what he was texting me about. And he, he wrote a string of tweets and then he let GPT-3 write the next two or three and effectively impossible to tell apart, right? I mean, they did seem like tweets that he would write. It was spooky.

• 33:22Speaker 03

  It's really cool. It, it, for, for those of you that are listening, they're like, I have no idea what these guys are talking about. Like, definitely go on Twitter, type that in and just look for, they have so many examples being tweeted out. They're just fun. They're, they're crazy and fun and wacky and, but, but it's, it's one of those things where you realize a major shift has happened. Like, this is truly a big AI shift in that, you know, I talked to Siri today and it doesn't understand half the shit I'm trying to tell it. And, and you go into what, you watch what this thing can do and you're like, wow, like this is an order of magnitude better than what we had just a couple of months ago, you know?

• 33:59Tim Ferriss?

  Hey Siri, tell me, predict what this slow donkey is gonna do. Slow donkey.

• 34:05Speaker 03

  Toy monkey?

• 34:05Tim Ferriss?

  Slow donkey.

• 34:11Tim Ferriss?

  Oh my God. That's so fucking creepy, man. Why does Siri? It's because I said, hey Siri, auto-activated on my phone and then had slow donkey. I didn't get that. Could you try again? All right, Siri, that's enough out of you.

• 34:25Tim Ferriss?

  Oh, boy.

• 34:26Speaker 03

  So you were asking what we've been up to. I mean, I just, for me, it's been more the same in Portland, though. You know, just kind of like enjoying the protests out here, like not enjoying them. That was a joke. It's been really brutal downtown in Portland.

• 34:41Speaker 03

  The weather's been fantastic, but you know, it's like you gotta look on the bright side with all this stuff going on and try and find ways to, I don't know, just return to some resemblance of like some kind of normal. And I don't know how you do that. For us, it's like Dari and I, like on Friday nights, even though we don't leave the house, like we actually get dressed up like we're gonna go out to dinner. And I know that sounds cheesy, but it's like breaking that pajama routine is a big deal. You know, and like eating outside now is nice. Like we have a backyard in Portland, so we can go eat outside, which is a huge change. But yeah, how about you guys? How is it? What have you been up to?

• 35:23Tim Ferriss?

  Well, it's made a big difference, at least from my mental well-being,

• 35:29Tim Ferriss?

  to move from a more urban environment to a very rural environment to have access to wilderness. Got some muck boots for people who are looking for some bushwhacking boots. Muck boots are amazing. Sort of knee-high boots that you can wear through mud and anything you might wanna walk through. They're not actually that suffocatingly hot for your feet. So I'll throw those on. I'll throw on the tick pants and just hike for hours. And there's so much land in so much of the US that you, if you're able to move yourself

• 36:11Tim Ferriss?

  from point A to point B, and there are a lot of areas outside of Austin, outside of a lot of major cities, LA, outside of New York City, where you can find space, that has been incredibly...

• 36:26Tim Ferriss?

  Clearing for me. I also deleted all social apps from my phone four weeks ago.

• 36:34Speaker 03

  That's crazy. You know, I did that a couple of months ago.

• 36:37Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 36:37Speaker 03

  I did the same experiment and I, it's been fantastic.

• 36:41Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, I have, I've, I have missed exactly nothing of great importance that, that I'm aware of. Meaning I talk to friends. I will occasionally on laptop, look at, say, things that are trending on Twitter that might be relevant to anything that I can affect positively. Right. Or areas where I can mitigate risks or something like that. But the vast majority of news is going to make you either anxious or really pissed off. And if you're not prepared or able to take

• 37:20Tim Ferriss?

  action on something that is within your sphere of control, it's really just creating energy leaks that will drain you. And I realized somewhere between, I'd say six and eight weeks ago, that I was extremely fatigued. I was very tired. And it was, I think, because I had so many stimuli in the form of different notifications or apps on my phone, social, et cetera, which were creating these powerful emotions without any ability to direct them towards something positive and actionable. Does that make sense?

• 38:05Speaker 03

  Dude.

• 38:06Tim Ferriss?

  And so I've, so I, so I deleted them from my phone and talked to a lot of friends. And also will talk to members of my team, you know, employees. We do team calls of various types and feel like the signal to noise ratio has improved so much since I did that. And I will occasionally, probably twice a week, look at, at replies on Twitter.

• 38:36Tim Ferriss?

  Because my listeners and readers are extremely helpful in helping me to find high signal articles or research studies that are really relevant to things they know I care about and focus on. But outside of that, it has been such a freeing experience and I really feel like social by and large has been a huge net negative.

• 39:02Speaker 03

  Dude, it's so crazy that we came to the same realization. Like two, a couple of months ago, I posted on Instagram, my like final post saying, I'm not going to be on here for a while. And the same thing with Twitter. And I removed all of them from my phone, all the apps from my phone. I, and I stopped looking them all together. I have not been on Instagram since. It's been like, you know, at least a couple of months. And I have gone back on Twitter because like you, well, two reasons. One, I, some people communicate me with them there over DMs that I don't actually have their phone number. And so sometimes there's important things that come through. And then also, there is important stuff in terms of the research I do for my job and investing and on tech companies and

• 39:47Speaker 03

  all that. Like, it is a good source of that type of data. So, but I still kept it off my phone. So it is a desktop only experience for me now. And I will tell you, you're right. Like the anxiety goes down a ton. The notifications to your device goes down and you don't realize, you know, it's funny. I don't know if you got this feeling, but the first like week I was opening my phone up like, oh, I wonder what's, oh wait, I don't have that app anymore. Did you like get that like, like a few times, you're like, oh, wait a second. I don't, I don't have that app. The other thing I did, which you might want to try, this is kind of, and this is, this is just dumb stuff. If people are listening, like, don't, like, I'm not trying to be holier than thou when I do this type of stuff. It's just like, it's, it's fun to do these little micro experiments. The other thing I did is I said, How can I reduce the stress on my phone even more?

• 40:29Speaker 03

  And that would be uninstalling even more garbage that I don't use that might may or may not send me notifications. But with every app, there's like a micro mental burden somewhere buried in there of having just like one more thing to check or one more thing that is a potential distraction. So I said, if I can't fit the apps on the homepage, I'm not going to have them on my phone. So no swiping sideways for more apps. So basically I have one screen of apps now.

• 40:56Tim Ferriss?

  Just have folders with like 75 apps inside them?

• 40:59Speaker 03

  I do have folders, but here's the rule with the folders. The folders cannot swipe sideways. So I can only, so that means a total of nine apps and folders. So basically this is my, my home screen right here. And so you can see I just have the apps in there. It's not that many. Now, the bottom, the people are looking at the bottom, the bottom, I do have a screen that goes sideways. Then I put all the Apple utilities and crap that you kind of can't uninstall, like the compass app and the measure app and the calculator and like all that stuff in its own little side folder thing.

• 41:31Tim Ferriss?

  What are the categories in those buckets and those folders?

• 41:34Speaker 03

  So here's what I have. Then my categories are audio, which means for me, that's Pocket Casts, music app and Spotify, Audible, Sonos for Home stuff and Pandora. So that's good. Health, I have waking up, I have the strong app Dexcom, Aura, Less, Zero. For learning, all the, the language learning apps that I want to go back to and Lumosity and MasterClass. And then finance stuff, I have one screen of that, which is, you know, personal capital, Financial Times, Wall Street Journal, Wealthfront. I like playing around with Clarity Money and Barons and Simplify. And then I have home apps like Home Control.

• 42:15Speaker 03

  Now, home means like I got a Traeger barbecue, which has been a fantastic addition this summer, by the way.

• 42:20Tim Ferriss?

  So I also got a Traeger. That's really funny.

• 42:23Speaker 03

  Are you serious?

• 42:24Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 42:24Speaker 03

  Which one did you get?

• 42:25Tim Ferriss?

  Looks like we're on parallel tracks here. The, the one that.

• 42:31Speaker 03

  Timberline 870?

• 42:33Tim Ferriss?

  I got the, I actually did get the Timberline 870. That's fucking crazy.

• 42:38Speaker 03

  That's the one I got.

• 42:39Tim Ferriss?

  I did get that. And so I have that in Austin and at the undisclosed rural location, I have, I think it's a 650. So I got a slightly smaller one because I looked at the 870 and I was like, okay.

• 42:51Speaker 03

  Maybe it is the 650 that I have.

• 42:52Tim Ferriss?

  It's like you can cook, you can cook 20 chickens at one time. And I'm like, I don't need to cook 20 chickens at one time. So I got a smaller, smaller unit.

• 43:00Speaker 03

  No, maybe I did get a smaller unit as well. Uh, now you have me curious to see which one I got. It doesn't say on the app right away. Uh, I think it is the smaller of the, the Timberline version. But anyway, that's a, that's a great one. So last, last one. So the home stuff has like things like that where it's like, you know, ring and Lutron and that stuff.

• 43:18Tim Ferriss?

  And to be clear, you have an app, you have a Traeger app, which helps you to control the grill. So you can check the temperature and so on and so forth.

• 43:27Speaker 03

  Yeah. So we, I just, um, by the way, wild salmon is running and it's on sale right now. But it's, it's, I've been smoking salmon like crazy. I've gone through six or seven different recipes. I finally found the perfect smoked salmon that I'll, I'll send you which one on the Traeger app. That is, it's fantastic. But you gotta let it cure 24 hours. That's the key. You gotta, it can't do any of these like little rubs where you do like two or four hours. You gotta do a full 24 hour cure on it.

• 43:55Tim Ferriss?

  Cool.

• 43:55Speaker 03

  But yeah, I've been, I've been dialing in the Traeger like crazy.

• 44:01Tim Ferriss?

  Just a quick thanks to one of our sponsors and we'll be right back to the show. This episode is brought to you by Dry Farm Wines. I'm a wine drinker. I love it. Love a few glasses over meals with friends. That said, I hate hangovers. It kills me often for multiple days. Right now, all of the wine in my house is from Dry Farm Wines. Also, for my last two book launch parties, all the wine has been from Dry Farm Wines. Why is that? Because in my personal experience, their wine means more fun with fewer headaches. Dry Farm Wines only ships wine that meet very stringent criteria. Close to sugar free, so less than 0.15 grams per glass, lower alcohol, less than 12.5% alcohol, additive free. There are more than 70.

• 44:43Tim Ferriss?

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• 45:28Tim Ferriss?

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• 45:51Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, I've been cooking a lot, period, right? We've been cooking a lot at home, and cooking a lot of venison also. I don't know if, I don't know if you even know this, Kevin, but I ended up, you know, you definitely know, you can, you can confirm this, I invest in very, very few things these days. And about a year ago, I invested in a venison harvesting operation in Hawaii called Maui Nui Venison. For those people who are not watching the video, Kevin is laughing. And really thought to myself, there's no way this is ever going to make any money, but

• 46:33Tim Ferriss?

  I like the ethos and the principles behind it, because Axis deer are an invasive species in Hawaii. They've destroyed a lot of ecosystem. They've damaged or compromised coral reefs because of runoff after removing vegetation. And this operation harvests Axis deer, and they, they just approach it in such a thoughtful...

• 47:04Tim Ferriss?

  Such a surgical way and the meat is so incredibly good. Peter T is obsessed with this also, by the way, and which he and he's the one in a way who convinced me to combine the Traeger with this Maui Nui Venison. So the leg medallions are better for cooking indoors, but rib racks, steaks, all of that are just incredible. And you've probably realized this on the Traeger that one of the benefits of having and for people who don't know what the hell we're talking about, this is a wood pellet fueled grill. You could also think of it as a smoker and in a lot of ways, I tend to think of it more as a smoker than a grill because you're

• 47:45Tim Ferriss?

  not going to get, it's more difficult to get, say, the searing on a burger in a

• 47:51Speaker 03

  Yeah, there's no direct flame.

• 47:53Tim Ferriss?

  That's right. But, but if you cook ribs at super low temperature, like 165 or 185, you just get the most incredible flavor.

• 48:04Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah. I did, I did ribs last night. I did some heritage pork ribs. By the way, speaking of trading, like places to buy meat, have you used Crowd Cow at all?

• 48:15Tim Ferriss?

  I've not used Crowd Cow. You know, there are a couple of these companies. I have used ButcherBox, which might be similar. I'm not sure. I don't know Crowd Cow.

• 48:23Speaker 03

  Yeah. So Crowd Cow is essentially what they've said is like, okay, there are, you know, a dozen or so probably more amazing farms in the United States that are these like small, little tiny mom and pop farms. They don't really have a way to get proper distribution online. First of all, they don't even know how to set up their own online, you know, site. And so let's go to them and, and put them on our site. And it's only like the best, small, little amazingly run farms. And also they work with Japanese farmers as well. So they get in some of the best wagyu that I've ever had, A5 certified with all the holograms and everything on there.

• 49:04Speaker 03

  And they work with a couple of really small farms out there. And that, that's fun stuff.

• 49:09Tim Ferriss?

  So do you choose, you then choose the farms you want to buy the meat from? You pick? Individually.

• 49:14Speaker 03

  Yeah, so you can do it. I think how they started was like you had to kind of put together a portion of a cow, like X number of pieces and then you would save like you're going in on a cow. Now it's like all I think that's a feature in there somewhere, but now it's like all à la carte now. So you can just go, I just want some amazing ribeyes or I want a rack and like they're just right there ready to buy.

• 49:34Tim Ferriss?

  Cool. Yeah. ButcherBox kind of mixes and matches and you get a membership. So I have pork and beef from them as well. Another one that is close to our long ago home in NorCal is Belcampo. I don't know if you've tried any of their stuff now. Belcampo has incredible ribeyes. So those, those are the two non venison sources that I've, I've been trying these days. But that's, that's about it. Uh, as far as, as meat goes, I've tried to really do a, uh, take a less is not less is more, but like if you're going to eat meat, like really do it in as thoughtful a way

• 50:17Tim Ferriss?

  as possible, uh, which I recognize is in a sense a luxury, right? I mean, it, it, it is. Uh, because we have the, the means to sort of explore some of these options and some of them aren't cheap. Certainly Traeger's aren't cheap.

• 50:32Speaker 03

  Traeger's aren't that expensive, man. They make ones that are further down the line that aren't the fancy fancy ones. That I actually do a great job smoking. My buddy has one of the ones that you can buy at Costco. And it's, it's phenomenal and they're, they're not, they're not crazy. I mean, they're not cheap, but they're not crazy crazy. We're not talking thousands of dollars or anything, you know?

• 50:50Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah. So, so I've been enjoying really paying attention to the fundamentals for me. Just harkening back to what you said about us being in a pretty bad place, stressed out place. I mean, I was in a very anxious, stressed out place for a really long time. Once I kind of saw the comet of COVID headed towards planet Earth slash United States. Since early February, right? So I've had this low grade or high grade anxiety for months. And eventually you just get fucking tired of the. Anxiety. So you want to figure out approaches to lessen it. And for me, it's, it's really been keep it simple, stupid, right?

• 51:35Tim Ferriss?

  Eat good food, cook food, take time to prep. It's super meditative. If you're using a sharp knife, you gotta pay attention or you're gonna chop your little pretty fingers off. And I've been doing HRV training, so heart rate variability training with breath work. And it's, the jury's still out. I've been doing that for five weeks, twice a day for 20 minutes.

• 51:57Speaker 03

  Can I ask what that practice looks like?

• 51:59Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, it looks like using an app. I'm using one called Breath, or actually it has a very generic name. But this is not to imply that it's the best app out there, but it's the one breathing. It's just called breathing and it's a circle that opens and contracts to help you time the duration of your inhale and exhale.

• 52:16Speaker 03

  What is it? What is the, um, the, you know, sometimes there's a four, seven, eight breath. There's five and a half seconds in, five.

• 52:21Tim Ferriss?

  This one is, I think I'm doing three point seven second inhale and six point three second exhale. And I arrived at that, or I didn't. I'm working with a doctor, I don't want to mention her name just yet, but I'm working with a PhD who sent me a kit, which includes a pulse oximeter, which you put on your thumb to track your pulse and heart rate and then.

• 52:51Speaker 03

  Blood ox as well, right?

• 52:53Tim Ferriss?

  And blood ox, although I think we're looking less at that. And then a, a respiration strap. So it looks like basically a bra that you put on under your nip nips and what would be just above your navel. And as you breathe and it expands, there are sensors that track that. And so you can correlate and superimpose your breathing on your heart rate. And she would then take me through, we would, we would use Zoom, share screen. And she would take me through different exercises to identify. Which duration of inhale and exhale seemed optimal for me in terms of activating my sympathetic,

• 53:36Tim Ferriss?

  I'm sorry, my parasympathetic nervous system. So more, more of a autonomous relaxation response. And if people have trouble separating the two, so sympathetic, you can think of stimulating, S equals stimulating sympathetic, like fight or flight, fight, flight, freeze. It's not quite that simple, but the useful shorthand. And then parasympathetic would be more of the letting go calming. And I have incredible hypervigilance. I mean, I don't think we're going to get into it today, but it's a lot of gnarly stuff happened to me as a kid and my system, well, as she would put it, I am cardiac hyperreactive.

• 54:17Tim Ferriss?

  So little things will send my heart rate shooting to the ceiling and then my heart rate will stay elevated for hours. And, and that's part of the reason.

• 54:26Speaker 03

  To the tune of what? Like what 90 beats a minute? Like not crazy.

• 54:30Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, 80 to 90, but that's, I mean, if we're talking like six, seven hours, that's a long time.

• 54:36Speaker 03

  No, I was worried you were going to tell me something worse, but yeah, that is, that is, that's like, you know, that you probably should be walking the dog at that rate. You know what I mean? Like that's not just sitting there. That is elevated.

• 54:46Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah. And fatigue has been this lifelong battle of mine since I would say age 16, 17, especially with Lyme disease on Long Island and all of these undiagnosed Lyme, and then later diagnosed, which is how now the people are familiar with serologic testing. You know, I was tested with, when I, when I was suffering acute symptoms and they said, well, you're positive for the short-term antibodies, but you realize you've already had Lyme disease because you're testing positive for the long-term as well. And so I've really tried in the last, my dog's pacing all over the place. You can, you can see where is she?

• 55:29Speaker 03

  Where are you, Molly?

• 55:29Tim Ferriss?

  Hiding behind me? There she is. I can kind of see her, but I think she has to pee. I might have to take a little break to let her out, but.

• 55:40Tim Ferriss?

  Long story short, this fatigue is like my battle, right? It's like without sufficient energy, you really can't execute well on anything else. And by execute well, I would include like relaxing and enjoying yourself, right? Like if the tank is empty, the tank is empty. So the fundamentals, the food, the HRV slash meditation, all these things have been focused on identifying like cracks in the vessel where I'm leaking energy. And so a lot of those I've found to be really helpful, right? Like the jumping rope, I'm not talking about like 10 rounds of jumping rope.

• 56:23Tim Ferriss?

  I'm not Mike Tyson getting back into shape to, to try to lop Roy Jones Jr.'s head off. I'm talking about like three to five minutes jumping rope. First thing in the morning, just to get outside, to make sure I get outside into some sun ideally, and move my body. That's it. And if people are interested in the, the intersection and the interplay between exercise and the brain and brain health and brain neurotrophic or brain derived neurotrophic factor.

• 56:53Speaker 03

  BDNF, yeah.

• 56:54Tim Ferriss?

  BDNF, there's a book called Spark that gets into this. But if you want to get out of your monkey mind, at least for me, one of the fastest ways is through the body and it doesn't take a lot. It really doesn't take a lot. Get outside, walk for a few minutes, jump rope for three to five minutes and then go back inside. So those are a few of the things I've been doing. I don't know if you found any routines or other practices helpful?

• 57:18Speaker 03

  Yeah, you know, it's funny. I've just now recently started getting back into meditation, but in a, in a different way. You know, before I had done Sam's course, you know, which I think that you've done as well. Sam Harris, his Waking Up App.

• 57:35Tim Ferriss?

  So are you still doing the tantric self-pleasuring meditation that you told me about?

• 57:40Speaker 03

  The one that you zoom with me on? Yeah, we're still doing that.

• 57:43Tim Ferriss?

  Wednesdays?

• 57:44Speaker 03

  It's every Tuesday. Yeah, exactly.

• 57:48Speaker 03

  Um, no, no, this is a, it's, it's interesting. I, I was, um, I was on Sam's app and this was a, a several weeks ago and I saw that there was a new course on there by Henry Shookman, who is a, um, he practices, uh, a certain lineage of Zen and he's based out of, um, where is he based? Not Arizona, but, um, New Mexico. And he just had these beautiful 10-minute meditations on these Zen koans. Do you know much about Zen koans?

• 58:21Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, yeah. Paradoxical sort of statements or parables that are intended to, as I understand it, intended to derail the rational mind, right? To sort of sideline the rational mind. So like, what is the sound of one hand clapping type of stuff?

• 58:38Speaker 03

  Right. And they, they're these beautiful little, uh, unsolvable riddles, you know, that, that, that, that are part of the practice and that they will meditate with them and on them. Um, and then take back their kind of insights that are gathered from these, uh, over time, back to their teachers. And it's kind of like, uh, uh, you know, you talk them through with your teacher. There is no real answer to them, but they're used as, they're very difficult to, to describe, but they're, they're used as a part of the, the Zen training. And so I had, was very fortunate to reach out to Sam and Sam introduced me to Henry. And Henry, um, has since come on my podcast and he had a, a book that, um, he recently

• 59:23Speaker 03

  published called One Blade of Grass, um, by Henry Shookman. I'm just pulling it up right now. It's on Amazon. Fantastic book that talks about, it's basically a biography of his life and he talks about-

• 59:41Speaker 03

  All the struggles that he faced, he had severe eczema all over his body where he was like hospitalized, bleeding knuckles, like really bad for decades. How do you spell his last name? Uh, his last name is spelled S H U K M A N. Got it. Thanks. And so, yeah, he's a, he's this fantastic Zen master and I, I, um, I read his book and he talks about his path to these stages of enlightenment and how he was able to slowly over time, he was one of these people that had a very early experience and didn't even know how to put into words what had happened to him because he wasn't training at the

• 1:00:21Speaker 03

  time. Uh, and then later went into Zen and had other experiences and then all the way through to today where he describes the falling away of basically of everything, the, the, just everything falls away at some point, uh, during this training. And it's a beautiful story on Zen and really just, um, reemphasized to me that, that, I mean, he's, he's, you know, had a career as a writer and he was, uh, an award-winning poet and, you know, Oxford trained, um, very busy, productive human, wife, two children, and has still

• 1:01:00Speaker 03

  been able to go off and obtain these, uh, very deep life. Uh, well, he's now kind of flipped onto the side of the, they're lasting now, the changes are lasting versus going back to reality after a couple of weeks. Um, fascinating story, but also just one where I, I, by the end of the book, I was like, I need to get back into Zen, like, uh, cause I, I, I don't, I've told you at some point, you knew I, you used to come over to my house when I lived right next to the Zen Center, but my, my first training, uh, in San Francisco was at that Zen Center. Um, and then I, I fell away from it because I didn't really take it seriously. But, uh, yeah, so Henry's going to help me really get back into Zen and he's, uh, I'm, I'm excited to, to go to, he has the Mountain

• 1:01:44Speaker 03

  Cloud Zen Center that he runs and, uh, I'm going to be taking some courses there and, and I really want to take this seriously. I figure I'm in my 40s now, it's time to devote a decent percentage of my life to this type of training. Like I, I feel like it's, it's time.

• 1:02:00Tim Ferriss?

  I'd love to hear you elaborate on that because I know you've you've tried all sorts of different types of meditation. Still interested to know if you recommend the Surrender Course by

• 1:02:14Speaker 03

  I do, Michael Singer.

• 1:02:16Tim Ferriss?

  Michael Singer. But you have you've explored these various tools and modalities. What is it about Zen that differentiates it for you or that you find attractive, right? Because you could you could reach out to or get a hold of you. One of your magic powers is getting getting a hold of anybody. Basically, you want to get a hold of. Why Zen? What is it?

• 1:02:41Speaker 03

  I would say that when I first took my that when I first took the introductory course to Zen, I appreciated the mystery behind it in some sense. So I was attracted to how it could be a strict discipline in some ways, like, you know, like, kind of one of these things where you show up for zazen, and if you're not there the second you're supposed to be there, they'll keep you out from coming in and you're rejected. Or if you want to train and actually set up a residence there, like, you have to prove it by sleeping outside for like, two months. Like, all these stories you hear that Henry actually talks about in his book.

• 1:03:22Tim Ferriss?

  Can be super hardcore, or like, he let you go to the zazen room, and you're you're separated by these like, cubicle walls, right? And so you're you're sitting in zazen, this like, seated meditation with your face about a foot and a half away from a wooden wall. And then if you start to nod off, they might hit you with a little wooden switch.

• 1:03:43Speaker 03

  Right, exactly. Yeah, so, you know, I kind of I was initially attracted that. Now, Henry's discipline that he's into, that he's teaching is a little bit more laid back, which I which I can appreciate. Because this is like, you know, when you're going to, you had to enter with your right foot when you're entering into to sit. Like, you have to enter into the room the correct way. You can't cross over the mat in the wrong way. Like, there's all these rules, right? Too many rules, but.

• 1:04:09Tim Ferriss?

  It's also very Japanese.

• 1:04:11Speaker 03

  But it is very Japanese, which I, you know, we all, both of us really love. But the one thing I will say about Zen is that, especially with the way that Henry's been teaching, at least that I gather through his book and through our conversation, is that they're, they make enlightenment less mysterious and less about being a perfect person and making it actually seem like it's something that is attainable by everyone. And it doesn't have to mean that you're this ultimate spiritual guru, the second you snap into these different states of consciousness and that there are these really beautiful moments when people have this flip, like this flip in their brain, the switch that

• 1:04:56Speaker 03

  goes, and then they're jolted, almost shocked into this, this state of consciousness. Like sometimes, like there's these stories of these Zen masters, well, they'll look at a student the right way and the student won't grasp it and the student can't, they've been, they've been teaching and sitting and they just can't, and they'll just shake them in a certain way and it'll spontaneously jolt them in the right way into enlightenment. And there's these funky little things like that, that are just like beautiful stories and like, you know, you always take a lot of that stuff with a grain of salt, but coupled with this koan training, which I, which I highly recommend listening to on, on the Waking Up app, they're fantastic by Henry, it just, it's, it checks all the boxes that

• 1:05:37Speaker 03

  I'm curious about. And I think for me, the curiosity at this point is the most important thing because it's encouraging me and it gives me the drive to go and sit for a half hour every morning consistently. And, you know, that's what it's going to take. It's going to take a real dedication. And I think that if I can get the proper training coupled with these koans and I don't know, it just, I, I've done the transcendental meditation, I've done a few other disciplines and this one, for some reason, maybe it's because I'm a Japanophile, like I don't know all the reasons, but I'm attracted to it.

• 1:06:12Tim Ferriss?

  Cool. Do you know what the training is going to look like and what the meditation sessions are going to look like?

• 1:06:17Speaker 03

  Yeah. I mean, they're very simple. You just sit. So it's like.

• 1:06:23Tim Ferriss?

  Well, I'm more interested in what happens inside the head. So you sit. Maybe you shave your head. I would love to see you with a shaved head. That'd be hilarious.

• 1:06:32Speaker 03

  Like Big Brother?

• 1:06:33Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, we can be cue balls together. Get you some black robes with some, some white inner linings. Be good, good look for you. You kind of already have that look.

• 1:06:43Speaker 03

  I was gonna say, you see me with robes on. We've been in robes together in Japan.

• 1:06:49Tim Ferriss?

  You already got that one aced. But, okay, you sit, and then what? What happens on the inside?

• 1:06:54Speaker 03

  So I think there's, there's a few things. One, the question initially is, there is, there's kind of table stakes to play in the arena. And I would say, like, to even get to that point, at least for, for me, when I've, when I've been told and what I can gather, and I'm, I'm saying this as someone that is, well, pretty new novice to this new sect of Zen.

• 1:07:21Speaker 03

  It's just sitting and, and trying to quiet the mind, you know, and that means counting meditations, you know, counting to 10 and repeating yourself, following the breath. It's, it's that classic Zen posture of looking at the wall, not closing your eyes, kind of glancing somewhat downward towards the ground with a, a fuzzy awareness of everything going on in the room, but no strict focus on any one object. It's saying to yourself, a thought, a distraction, it's okay, it is, uh, the weights in a gym is what I need to get to the next, like, level of, of, of this. And so, not getting upset and, and getting the mind to where it's a little bit malleable

• 1:08:02Speaker 03

  and kind of getting to that place where the, the sits are becoming, uh, longer in duration, but also the mind is calming down a bit. I think Henry said it best in his book. Actually, this is a, I'm gonna butcher it, but I'll, I'll, I'll tell you the gist of it. He said that Zen is like pulling the plug, being a, a boat in a bathtub and pulling the plug of the drain. And initially, you kind of just notice a little bit of swirling, a little bit of like movement of the boat. And then you look around and you see the walls of the bathtub are a little bit higher. And you're like, oh, that's odd. And then you notice a little bit more movement. And all of a sudden, you start to twist. And then all of a sudden, you notice

• 1:08:46Speaker 03

  that there's a swirl going down the drain. And then there is the total annihilation of all things. And that's where you're headed. But you don't, but you have to sit at the surface for a while and just kind of like, you know, slowly realize that even though you're not feeling it, the daily practice is unplugging the drain and you will eventually get there. So I'm

• 1:09:09Tim Ferriss?

  That's terrifying. That's a terrifying description.

• 1:09:12Speaker 03

  Oh, dude, wait till you read his book, his description of his last tranche of this passing into this, I think you would actually really like it because it reminds me of a lot of our conversations that you have had around like ayahuasca and some of the ego, just disintegrating

• 1:09:30Tim Ferriss?

  Controlled death.

• 1:09:31Speaker 03

  Controlled death. And he's getting that without any drugs, man, just like intense, like multi-day meditation kind of things that that happen.

• 1:09:39Tim Ferriss?

  You know, for, for, I guess, a lot of reasons. I think that scares me more because with, with the tea, you're like, all right, I'm gonna go to crazy town for four to six hours, earth time. And then I'll be back to some semblance of like, normal computation and absorption of what we call reality. But with the Zen practice, with that description, it's, it's almost like a slow motion psychotic break

• 1:10:10Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:10:11Tim Ferriss?

  engineered for yourself. And that scares the living fuck out of me.

• 1:10:14Speaker 03

  So that's

• 1:10:15Tim Ferriss?

  Because I don't know how to back out of that. I don't know how to, yeah.

• 1:10:17Speaker 03

  You can't. You can't. That's the thing that's crazy, dude. I was, when you read this book and you get to that point, I'm freaked out by this because when you go there, all of a sudden, you're viewing the world as an illusion, as a completely different thing than you ever had before. And there's no going back.

• 1:10:36Tim Ferriss?

  What does Daria think about this? Is she supportive?

• 1:10:41Speaker 03

  Yeah, she listened to my interview with him on the podcast. And she was like, yeah, he sounds amazing. And this is, this is the path you want to go. Like, I support it. I mean, I don't think

• 1:10:49Tim Ferriss?

  She's not worried about you like?

• 1:10:53Tim Ferriss?

  I don't know, wearing your shirt backwards and picking at naval lint like staring blankly at like the wall.

• 1:11:00Speaker 03

  You have to, you have, you have to listen to his, his post analysis of what happened because he wrote the book after all this happened. And I'd be curious to know if you would enjoy this world. I think you would. It sounds beautiful. Like every moment is anew and just listening and it, there's so much, it's fascinating. I'm, I'm gonna butcher it all.

• 1:11:21Tim Ferriss?

  I think much like you with me and my various psychedelic experiments of which there are now many, many, many, many.

• 1:11:31Speaker 03

  Thousands now, I think, for you.

• 1:11:33Tim Ferriss?

  It's a lot. And you've kind of let me be the guinea pig. I think I'll let you be the first monkey shot into space on this slow motion engineered psychotic break. Tell me how that goes.

• 1:11:45Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean.

• 1:11:46Tim Ferriss?

  Here, here to support.

• 1:11:48Speaker 03

  I, I think, well, it's not like you're gonna see me in six months and like we're, I'm just gonna be levitating. Like this is gonna be like a, if I, if I do it correctly, this is gonna be like a 30 year kind of journey, you know, to get to these, these places or, you know, who knows? There's no, there's no pinning a, a date on.

• 1:12:02Tim Ferriss?

  Unless he, unless he like grabs you by your ears and shakes your head and gives you the, the Highlander quickening like you were describing.

• 1:12:09Speaker 03

  I'd love that, actually.

• 1:12:12Tim Ferriss?

  Grab you by your eyebrows and bite your fucking upper lip and like throw your, throw you off your chair.

• 1:12:18Speaker 03

  Sounds great.

• 1:12:21Tim Ferriss?

  That's exciting.

• 1:12:22Speaker 03

  Yeah, you should, you should check out his book, One Blade of Grass. I highly recommend it to anyone listening. It's, it's a fun, he has a fantastic, you know, British voice is from the UK. So his, um, his audio book is, is, is fun, is a fun listen.

• 1:12:37Tim Ferriss?

  You know, yeah, the, the British accent gives you an automatic plus 20 points of IQ.

• 1:12:42Speaker 03

  Oh, a hundred percent.

• 1:12:44Tim Ferriss?

  At least for, at least for any Yanks listening to it. My God.

• 1:12:49Tim Ferriss?

  Such a such an upgrade. Uh, you know, I wanted to to thank you for something you introduced me to actually, uh, because I've been consuming a ton of it. You remember when you gave me some Peak, uh, tea?

• 1:13:03Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:13:04Tim Ferriss?

  The P I Q U E for anyone wondering, not inexpensive, but they're powdered pu-er. I've actually been having almost every morning, uh, for the last while and it's fantastic. I've been having that usually before I do. So the the sequence for me would be wake up immediately, do the breath work HRV meditation for 20 minutes, then heat the water to like 170, uh, pretty low temperature just because I I don't like continually burning the fuck out of my mouth when I forget how hot something is in an insulated mug.

• 1:13:49Tim Ferriss?

  And then putting in the Peak, uh, pu-er with, uh, I don't know if you've ever tried Laird Superfood Creamer, the unsweetened stuff. It's basically powdered MCT oil is one way to think about it. And I've been fasting, well, if people consider it fasting, I've been semi fasting until late lunch a lot recently. And so I'll have that and then go into the, say, jump rope and so on. But, uh, the the peak is, uh, it's really good. Took me a while to get into, but I appreciate you introducing me to that.

• 1:14:23Speaker 03

  It's funny because, um, I I I never know, like, sometimes I'll reach out to you, but like, anytime you plug me as someone that can get you stuff on your on podcasts and stuff like that, all of a sudden.

• 1:14:36Tim Ferriss?

  Wait, when do I plug you?

• 1:14:37Speaker 03

  No, I'm just saying like, well, every once in a while we'll do a podcast together and you'll be like, oh dude, thanks for that recommendation, blah, blah. And then like. A week later, a hundred random emails. Hey, I had this like ball massager. Can you get it to Tim? Like he would love it, blah, blah. And just like, everybody comes out like, give it to me. It's, and so I'm like, you're like, basically I try all the shit and then the good stuff I pass on to you. So I appreciate that.

• 1:15:02Tim Ferriss?

  Trying the tea.

• 1:15:03Speaker 03

  Thank you. The Peak is a cool company. I met with, um, with, with the founder and we were chatting about, how he creates some of this stuff because they, the, the thing that's unique about it is that, you know, so many times like tea, as you know, is like you steep it and you discard the leaves when you're done. They, um, steep it, crystallize it through this like crazy process and then they make it instant. So it's like, you can just pour it in. You don't have to think about, you don't have to think about oversteeping it.

• 1:15:32Tim Ferriss?

  It's, it's like if you took every tea and made it into matcha, right?

• 1:15:36Speaker 03

  Right. Exactly.

• 1:15:37Tim Ferriss?

  Basically.

• 1:15:38Speaker 03

  Yeah. And so it's, uh, it's really easy to consume and you, you can't screw it up, which is a lot of people oversteep their tea. And they're like, a tea is so bitter. It's so, you know, and it's like, no, it's not weird and stringent. It's just that you've oversteeped it. That's the main complaint. Um, but anyway, yeah, it's awesome. Yeah. They, they do, they do quality stuff. I'm glad you got, I'm glad you're enjoying it.

• 1:15:58Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah. What, uh, what else is, what else is new in your world, man?

• 1:16:03Speaker 03

  Oh gosh, I would say new stuff that I'm into. Um, well, I've got boring stuff. Like I'm getting into salmon fishing. That's going to be next.

• 1:16:13Tim Ferriss?

  Oh, I've got one. I've got one.

• 1:16:15Speaker 03

  Let's hear it.

• 1:16:16Tim Ferriss?

  Uh, I don't, you're the app guy. I'm the idiot who's like, you know, in, in 2022, I'm like, I found this app called WhatsApp. It's really great. And you're like, oh boy, here we go.

• 1:16:26Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:16:27Tim Ferriss?

  So I am, I am pretty slow on the uptake when it comes to apps, but I did find one because I was,

• 1:16:36Tim Ferriss?

  as I mentioned, Doing a lot of hiking, have been doing a lot of hiking. And I'm in a very rural area. I don't want to wander onto somebody's property and have somebody like come outside with a shotgun and be like, hey, what the hell are you doing on my property? And I also just want to be respectful, right? I don't want people showing up at my house. But I really wasn't sure how to identify property boundaries. And I've, I met someone who hunts locally and introduced me to something called the OnX Hunting App. And it's just O-N-X. And OnX Hunt is the app.

• 1:17:19Tim Ferriss?

  And I'm not going to necessarily use this for hunting, but what it allows you to do, and they give you the premium features for free for seven days, which is super, super smart. If, if they're actually listening to this, I would, I think they would get such better conversion and probably increase their revenue 40, 50% at least from this particular app if they had an onboarding process, which they don't, right? There's no automatic tutorial that I saw, which meant I had to kind of fumble and go find online FAQs and figure it out. But the OnX Hunt app allows you to see property boundaries. It allows you to hit track and track yourself as you hike.

• 1:18:02Tim Ferriss?

  So maybe similar to a Strava in that sense. But in this particular case, it's for, it's for wilderness. You can save maps offline, so you can use them when you don't have reception. You can look at topographical view, satellite view, or combinations. You can take photographs. So for instance, if I find something of interest and I want to share that with someone, I can take a photograph, geo-tag it, and then just share it with someone else who's on the app. And

• 1:18:34Speaker 03

  This is cool.

• 1:18:35Tim Ferriss?

  It's awesome.

• 1:18:35Speaker 03

  Right now. It actually also covers fishing as well, which is great.

• 1:18:39Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's an extremely, extremely cool app. So I've been using that on a pretty much daily basis and it, and really, really enjoying it. Who knows? Maybe I will use it for hunting. I don't hunt much. I do it pretty infrequently, but if I were to travel to say Hawaii to hunt Axis deer, which maybe at some point I will, it's not, not particularly easy to do. I don't even know if I could get permission to do it, but I would use something like this so that I could see how much mileage I'm covering, where I was, where I went. Perhaps we go on a scouting trip

• 1:19:18Tim Ferriss?

  during non-hunt hours or on a non-hunt day, and I could take photographs of particular locations that I think might be ideal and save those. And then I can go back and review that. So I've been, I've been loving it. That's, that's, that's an app that might not otherwise come across your radar that you might get a kick out of playing with. It's cool.

• 1:19:39Speaker 03

  Yeah, it looks awesome. I'll definitely give that a shot, given how many hiking trails are here. You know, in Portland, there's just so many hundreds of miles of hiking trails just right in the city, which is crazy. So I, you asked me what I'm into lately. Actually, I do have one thing I haven't told you about. You know, I've been, I, I think that lately I've put on some weight and I have been able to shed it back off through intermittent fasting. And then also, you know, doing a lot of cardio and things like that, but

• 1:20:09Tim Ferriss?

  How do you typically, what's, what's your intermittent fasting look like? Just real quick.

• 1:20:13Speaker 03

  18 hours a day. If I'm in, if I'm in lean mode, like if I want to get lean, 18 hours a day. If not, at a minimum 14. I think that's when a lot of the, the data, I have a, a friend out of UC San Diego, she works with Longo out there. And she said that the, I was just talking to her like a week ago, and she said 14 hours is what she does. And that's where a lot of the data looks really promising in terms of just like some of the longevity benefits. I think if you're gonna do it every single day.

• 1:20:39Tim Ferriss?

  Eating from what? Like?

• 1:20:41Speaker 03

  Between what hour and what hour? Well, I just basically, well, I use Zero, obviously, uh, the testing app. And, uh, you know, when I, when I'm done eating dinner, so it's, you are with the kids and putting them down and all that stuff. You never know when you're going to actually finish your last bite. So whenever I'm done, I just hit start and whenever, you know, it tells me eat it again, then I, then I eat. Um, but it's 14 hours after I finished my last bite, basically. Yeah, cool. And so when I'm doing 18 hours, you know, sometimes I'm eating a late dinner and like that and I'm eating till 1:32 o'clock the next day, you know, which is, which is a little brutal, but it's okay. I just have black coffee and I'm totally fine. Um, but to, to, uh, I actually, the, the point I was, was

• 1:21:22Speaker 03

  gonna, or what I was gonna chat about is that in choosing my alcohol and alcohol consumption, especially during COVID, there was like this period there where like March, April, I was like, we're all gonna die. I'm just gonna get drunk the entire time, you know? I remember that. Every time I talk to you, you're like, hey, Dar Dar says whatever. I'm five glasses in. How the fuck are you? I'm like, I didn't say, I didn't say five glasses, but I was down to three, you know? It's like, but it was, you know, we were, we, we didn't know what was gonna happen and it was kinda freaky. And it's like, might as well open the good stuff, you know? So, um, in, in my cutting back and focusing more on health, what I've decided to do, and this is kind of a crazy thing, is like, okay, wine can get nutso, like a really nice bottle of wine can be thousands

• 1:22:05Speaker 03

  of dollars for like crazy wines, right? Like, nobody wants to do that. I mean, some people, I guess, want to do that, but not on a regular basis. So what I was thinking is, why not go? I went to Beer Advocate and I went to their top 100 beers and I've been slowly finding and buying the top 10 rated beers in the world and then trying them, like just to consume. Like, if you have ever had the number one rated beer in the world, I hadn't. What is it? It's right here. It's, uh, it's called, uh, Kentucky Breakfast Stout. And it is, uh, from Topping, Toppling Goliath. Here, let me show you what it looks like. One sec, since we have video.

• 1:22:53Speaker 03

  All right. So out of the the top beers of the world, I would say out of the top 10, probably seven or eight of them are stouts. So it's like the thick, dark, rich, funky, slow sip type stuff. So, so look at the wax melt on the top of that.

• 1:23:14Tim Ferriss?

  That's cool.

• 1:23:14Speaker 03

  And they're hand numbered.

• 1:23:17Tim Ferriss?

  233. So you said beer advocate. I know nothing about beer.

• 1:23:21Speaker 03

  So beer advocate has like their top.

• 1:23:23Tim Ferriss?

  Just like some guy named Tony in Newark, New Jersey who's rating these?

• 1:23:27Speaker 03

  I think it's community based and and they have a lot of, a lot of the pros and stuff go on there that are really into this. But, but this Kentucky brunch stout by Toppling Goliath, it's so the vintage is 2016. So they age these like wine. Because they are so dense, you can just basically put them in, you know, the wine cellar and let them sit for a decade or longer. And then they really mellow out over time. So I just, I picked this up. I found it. I found a great site, actually, by the way. I'm giving away all my best links, but people need to know about this because it's a fantastic site. My favorite place to buy aftermarket beer, and I've done a lot of research on this,

• 1:24:08Speaker 03

  is mybeercollectibles.com.

• 1:24:10Tim Ferriss?

  So you say aftermarket, it makes it sound like you're buying a spoiler for your Miata or something. What does that mean?

• 1:24:17Speaker 03

  So what that means is, you know, this is bottle number 233. Maybe they made 500 bottles in this year. So it's impossible to find, you can't buy it new. You just can't buy.

• 1:24:26Tim Ferriss?

  I got it. So the site you mentioned is like the eBay of beer.

• 1:24:30Speaker 03

  Exactly. It's eBay of beer. And so you can get Pliny the Elder on there. This one I got on there, too. This is called the SR71 by the same manufacturer. This one's ranked, I think, number 12 or something like that. It's got, you can't see, but there's like a little Blackbird Stealth bomber on there. Or not itself, but it's SR71, actually. And then all the ingredients and everything are written in binary on the side.

• 1:24:52Speaker 03

  These are so cool. They're like culty little fun beers.

• 1:24:56Tim Ferriss?

  So you you gave a price anchor on the wines, right? Thousands of dollars. You can go, I mean, tens of thousands, probably hundreds of thousands, right? I mean, wine can get super, super crazy. So what? What does one of these very well ranked beers go?

• 1:25:14Speaker 03

  Okay, so let me give you, it's wide ranging. So for example, I got some of them that can't be aged. You have to drink them fresh. So like there's a, the number one ranked IPA, or I think it's the number two ranked IPA in the world is called The Julius by a brand called Treehouse. Okay, so The Julius, King Julius by Treehouse right now, a four pack on the site is going for $39.99. And that's the number one or number two ranked IPA in the world.

• 1:25:43Tim Ferriss?

  That's so cool. How fun. What was the name of the site again that you mentioned?

• 1:25:47Speaker 03

  Mybeercollectibles.com.

• 1:25:49Tim Ferriss?

  That's such a great URL.

• 1:25:51Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's like, it's such a janky site, but like, they've got a lot of great, great beers on here.

• 1:25:56Tim Ferriss?

  It's on GeoCities.

• 1:25:57Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:25:59Tim Ferriss?

  That's cool. That's super cool. Yeah, the the affordable vices, right? There are certain things where you can get the best in the country or the best in the world for less than 50 bucks. Right? I mean, there are certain categories of thing where you can go very high end. I mean, I think really good chocolate would be an example of that, right? If you really wanted to have a treat, I mean, you don't necessarily have to break the bank to do that. But if you're like, oh, I want to get the fanciest car, the fanciest boat, the fanciest wine. I mean, you better have inexhaustible funds or you're screwed.

• 1:26:42Tim Ferriss?

  And you know, at the end of the day, if you think about it too, it's like that stuff.

• 1:26:47Tim Ferriss?

  Ages really poorly, right?

• 1:26:49Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:26:49Tim Ferriss?

  The, those types of, and neither of us collect that kind of stuff. But if, if you, if you think of, we know people who do. And it's like, four weeks after they've bought something, it loses its luster for most. And instead, if you have this, in the cases we're talking about, right? The beer or the, the chocolate, there's a, there's something really special about the perishable nature of it. And it's, it's an experience.

• 1:27:21Speaker 03

  Right, well, that's the key, right? The, it's an experience. Like, that's what's been linked to happiness is like actually having experiences with friends. And like, this is sharing something like that, right?

• 1:27:31Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:32Speaker 03

  It's great.

• 1:27:33Tim Ferriss?

  Cool. Love it. I love it. Well, I, I don't, I don't have anything, I don't have any big ones on my, on my list or anything that's coming to mind.

• 1:27:43Speaker 03

  One thing I want to ask you before we wrap. I don't know if you'll share this, actually. You may not, we might have to cut it. But what are you, so the stock market is so freaking crazy right now.

• 1:27:54Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:55Speaker 03

  Like, gold is going up and individual stocks are going up. And I'm like, well, that doesn't make sense. Like, what are you doing? Like, what's the Tim Ferriss four hour finance version of this?

• 1:28:10Tim Ferriss?

  Oh, boy. Yeah. Be careful, everybody. Earmuffs, earmuffs, cover your ears.

• 1:28:17Tim Ferriss?

  I'll tell you what I've, I can tell you what I've done.

• 1:28:21Speaker 03

  Yeah, what are you doing?

• 1:28:22Tim Ferriss?

  And, and it's not so much doing, it's more what I've done. And the, I'm glad you asked this because I recently turned 43. And a while back, I, I spoke with my parents, looked at the genealogy, asked a lot of questions and determined that the average age of death of males on both sides of my family, if you adjust for some outliers, is 85. So 43 puts me past the half mile mark, right? And hopefully I live until 120, but I've also lived aggressively, right? So my system's taken a beating. And I don't assume I'm gonna live that long.

• 1:29:05Tim Ferriss?

  So I've been doing a lot of introspection and this birthday hit me kinda hard. Usually age, I'm just like, ah, whatever, it doesn't matter. But crossing past that 50% mark hit me unusually. And I've been doing a lot of journaling, a lot of thinking. And I realized that number one, and you've seen this over the years. Like, I don't have a high burn lifestyle, right? Like, I don't, I don't buy lots of stuff.

• 1:29:34Tim Ferriss?

  And like, if I have a, the ability to hike with my dog, my dog, my girlfriend are happy and healthy. And, you know, occasionally I'll splurge on nice food or something, but I don't, I don't really.

• 1:29:46Speaker 03

  You're not a flashy guy. Like, I've never seen you with a sports car. I've never seen you with a fancy watch. I've seen you with fancy horse saddles.

• 1:29:55Speaker 03

  That's the only thing I've seen you splurge on.

• 1:29:57Tim Ferriss?

  That's true. The only, that was like, probably the first time I ever splurged. People think that he's joking. He's not actually joking. So for the, for the four hour body, because I killed myself on that book in more ways than one. And I was super proud of it. And I made a promise to myself because I very rarely celebrated. And that's, that's been a weakness of mine is I don't celebrate, right? I'm very hard on myself and I feel like you become, well, the story I've told myself for a long time is you become complacent. If you over-congratulate yourself. So I tend to really not pause and smell the roses, so to speak. Not you guys, the other roses. And smell you guys too, though.

• 1:30:34Tim Ferriss?

  And, and so celebrate has been this, this kinda word of the year for many years for me. And when I finished writing the four hour body, I promised myself, if it hit number one New York Times, that I would.

• 1:30:52Speaker 03

  Horse saddles.

• 1:30:53Tim Ferriss?

  Well, I didn't think about the horse saddles specifically, but I said, I'll get something special for myself that relates to Japan. Because I used to live in Japan. I have this deep love for, for Japan and the Japanese people. And I had around the same time, maybe a little bit afterwards, you might remember this, I did a TV show pilot where I went to Japan and attempted to learn horseback archery in one week. And I'm pretty sure you can find it online. If you go on YouTube and search trial by fire, you might be able to find it. It's wild and it's fucking dangerous as hell. So I did that. And I had, I had been thinking, maybe I'll get a sword, maybe

• 1:31:34Tim Ferriss?

  I'll get some type of armor. And then I thought to myself, actually, because I had this experience, I'd really like to, to get either saddle or stirrups of some type. Initially, I was just looking for stirrups because I thought they'd be cheaper and just easier to deal with. And ended up finding a beautiful wooden carved saddle. So I do have a Japanese saddle, which at the end of the day, wasn't that expensive. But for me, it was, it was like the, one of the first times I've ever treated myself to anything. So yes, aside from all that, and so to zoom out, back to the, the question about investing, I realized when

• 1:32:14Tim Ferriss?

  I was journaling around my birthday, that thinking about money generally does not make me happy. It makes me more anxious. And at the same time, I feel like I'm pretty good at, because I'm hyper analytical and over analytical, you might say, like, I'm pretty good at futzing around and optimizing. But the optimizing, at this point in my life, like I've figured out a lot of things that make me happy. I figured out a lot of things that don't make me happy. And most of the things that make me happy don't require a lot of capital. So this is just a long way of saying, I decided that I wanted to make

• 1:32:55Tim Ferriss?

  all of my investing decisions, or like money decisions, by my birthday. It didn't quite work out. So I gave myself a grace period to

• 1:33:07Tim Ferriss?

  To the first of August and then to take a six to 12 month break on all of that stuff. Meaning like I'm not allowed to consider new deals. I'm not allowed to look at stocks. I'm not allowed to do any of that stuff. And so now I'm glad I'm saying it publicly because I want to make myself accountable. So I'll tell you what I did. It's pretty simple. I've, I've thought about, and it's been made more complex, as you said, because it's Alice in Wonderland in the markets right now. Like stuff is happening that just by any kind of rational prediction

• 1:33:49Tim Ferriss?

  pre-COVID just should not be happening. There's all sorts of weird stuff. And then I'm not sure what's happening right now, but certainly previously you had the Fed buying high yield bonds, like all this stuff that was off the playbook. And that there's such a dislocation between the market and the economic reality of millions of people in the United States. I mean, tens of millions, the entire, entire country, for that matter, that I, I only wanted to put money in places where I felt I had some informational advantage, or not just in my head,

• 1:34:31Tim Ferriss?

  but like in my heart and gut, just had some conviction that I couldn't quite explain. Does that make sense? Where I'm just like, this feels like it makes all the sense in the world. And I don't have that very much. So just to be clear to people, I'm not one of those people who, who uses the word intuition as justification for lots of haphazard shit. That's just not me. But you know, you and I, I think as a way honestly, to kind of distract us from the stress and uncertainty, at least in my case, like talked about quite a bit of investing stuff over the last few months, but we haven't talked in maybe the last, I don't know, two months about this stuff. And you know, you had some predictions.

• 1:35:14Tim Ferriss?

  That I think turned out really well. I don't know if you're open to talking about them, but like Peloton, right? Where I thought maybe that was already baked in. So I was like, ah, you know, like I'm not going to buy a bunch of different things from Peloton. I don't have enough room. I do have one bike and I love the bike, but I'm not going to buy a bunch. They've ended up doing really well, at least last I saw. So the question I asked myself was which companies, if we're talking about the stock market, right? Because I don't think it helps people if we talk about more esoteric stuff like distressed debt, or, you know, SPACs, or like weird stuff that most people aren't going to have access to. But when I looked at the stock market, because my

• 1:35:54Tim Ferriss?

  biggest, I would say my most, my highest conviction bets have been in the, in the stock market, which you know is crazy for me. I don't play in that sandbox. You do that all the time. But I, I, I just asked myself, like, this was around mid-March, and I listened to an interview with Chamath, I can never say his last name, but interview on investing and his framework for looking at different investments. And it catalyzed a bunch of questions for me. Some were the same questions he had listed out. I put, I put this interview in Five Bullet Friday,

• 1:36:39Tim Ferriss?

  the newsletter that I put out. So I think the interviewer was Pomp, is his nickname, or Pomp Liano?

• 1:36:48Speaker 03

  I think we both talked about this podcast together. Maybe I sent it to you. I don't know.

• 1:36:53Tim Ferriss?

  You might have sent it to me. There's a very good chance that you sent it to me. I mean, this is the kind of thing that you would send to me. So everybody listening, send your interviews to Kevin.

• 1:37:04Tim Ferriss?

  And I began to wonder which companies, technology companies, would do extremely well if COVID were protracted?

• 1:37:19Tim Ferriss?

  Or if COVID were somehow magically resolved in three months, like which companies would benefit from a short period of dramatic online acceleration? Even if it ended in three months and especially if it continued for a year, year and a half. And at the same time, I was, I was looking closely at other countries like China where I might be getting the numbers wrong, but there's something like 79% all e-commerce and we're 17, something like that. And so a lot of room to grow. A lot of room to grow. And I wasn't trying to do any fancy spreadsheet analysis. And I know people are going to say, well, then you're speculating and there, there might be

• 1:38:03Tim Ferriss?

  some truth to that, but I only really considered a handful of companies. And I ended up deciding this is when, and I can tell you what the prices were too. So Amazon at about 2,000 and Shopify at about 380 per share. And this would have been in very, I want to say early April, but some point in April. And I decided to, initially I was looking at a bunch of different companies and what I decided for myself was that if I, if, if I was dividing my bets because I had low conviction, I shouldn't put money into any of those bets.

• 1:38:46Tim Ferriss?

  And I'm not saying that's the right approach, but that logic made sense to me. And I said, all right, I have high conviction around Amazon and Shopify. And if one dominates the other, then perhaps I still break even, right? But what I noticed was when I went, I, I use Amazon all the time and certainly my spending has increased dramatically after COVID. And I remember when Amazon was limited to essential goods and I couldn't get anything else, right? I would go to order like coffee filters and it was like four week delivery. And I thought to myself, these companies are fucked, right? Like if, if these people are.

• 1:39:26Tim Ferriss?

  Are largely dependent on Amazon and they don't have a, an elegant or effective e-commerce Plan B, they're going to need to do that immediately. And who's that going to be? And as somebody who isn't, you know, one of the first advisors to Shopify and then one could argue stupidly, but it made sense to me at the time. I ended up selling shortly after lockup period when they IPO'd. So I became an advisor when they had eight to 12 employees. Now they have whatever 2000. I always kicked myself, right? Cause I love those guys and they know what they're doing. They're good guys. The, they're very strategically intelligent. They're great at executing.

• 1:40:10Tim Ferriss?

  So I was always kind of kicking myself and I, and when they suspended their guidance for 2020 and they got pummeled, I just thought to myself, all right. You know, if you really believe that and you're seeing this kind of trend,

• 1:40:26Tim Ferriss?

  then this would be the time to like push some serious chips in. And it's like, either put in enough where if it grows, like, and, and I kind of in my mind thought, okay, two to three X in share price over the next three years. Did not expect it to happen in three months. I mean, that's just bonkers, right?

• 1:40:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:40:48Tim Ferriss?

  But those are the only, those are the only, if I, I don't think I'm omitting anything, but I think those are the, the two stocks that, that I put a lot into. But it was really thinking about what would do well, no matter what. And of course there are lots of unknowns. There's, there's a key person risk in both of these companies, but they've, they've both been really, really smart. And I, I don't know about you, I think you do this too. I mean, I base a lot of my investment decisions. This is true for early stage and it's also true for later stage, just based on my personal day-to-day experiences and how I'm spending money and how my behaviors are changing. And if I see those same behaviors changing in a dozen of my friends, I'm like, I think this is the thing.

• 1:41:33Speaker 03

  Well, I mean, that's, that's the beauty of being an early adopter, which you are and which I am like you're early, right? And if that's true, and all of our friends are early adopters and we're all early on something, we should be buying that stock, right? Yeah. Cause we're early. So, yeah, so I follow the same kind of strategy in that I have two buckets. I have so one, we should both say neither of us are registered investment advisors and this is not investment advice. This is just like what we'll do personally. Two things. My sister, what will I tell her? I'll tell her, don't buy any individual stocks. Buy Wealthfront, go into Wealthfront, get a bunch of index funds, play it safe, do your thing,

• 1:42:13Speaker 03

  set yourself up for retirement, you're done. So one bucket of my portfolio is like that. It's just like ultra safe, like Yep. Slow growth, nothing fancy, lots of index funds, blah, blah. Then there's the, okay, let's take this, and this is different for everyone in terms of what, what their allocation would be. What, but, but some percentage of your overall net worth and say, I'm going to take that and invest it in something that I hope will have a blended 3X over the next five years, right? Yep. Or 4X, whatever, whatever you're kind of aiming for. And for me, it's, it's the same bucket. So I was thinking, okay, heading into COVID, what are the things that are going to do better, which would be a Peloton?

• 1:42:58Speaker 03

  Because, you know, gyms are closed. It's a fantastic product. The churn is effectively zero, because when someone else buys a bike that is being sold used, a new subscriber is then activated, which is crazy. It's one of the very few products that has like zero churn. And you have to imagine they're working on, and they've hinted at this publicly, they're working on other types of equipment, right? So it's not just a one trick pony. They already had a treadmill, they pulled it back. They said they're revamping it like that's, so it's, you know, and it's a, like right now, even today, it's a $19 billion company. Like, if you think of this more as a technology subscription play and the future of fitness,

• 1:43:41Speaker 03

  I think there's a much larger business to be built here. And, you know, we were talking about this when it was under 10 billion in market cap. So that's interesting. Amazon, obviously to your point about e-commerce penetration being relatively low in the United States.

• 1:43:57Speaker 03

  This, there is no bigger Goliath, there is no bigger giant than this, you know, beast of a company. And it's like, they're just going to continue to crush everything. And so for me, that's not a 3X because it's already a $1.8 trillion company or whatever it is now, like, but it's, you know, there's some, there's, there's still some growth to be had there. And, and I, it's like, I, I, I'm not betting against e-commerce ever. And especially in a COVID world, people are going to be shopping and doing more shopping online. So I like that. Square, I love how they diversified their, their product offering. Square Cash is a fantastic app. So it's not about brick and mortar. It's now about, you know, they're doing stock trading, they're doing Bitcoin purchases, which they've made

• 1:44:41Speaker 03

  a ton of money off this last quarter. It's about building out that suite of personal finance tools for the unbanked, directly in that Cash app, which is, I just think, you know, I'm so, to my point earlier about the three to five X, you have to look at lower market cap companies. You can't be looking at an Apple or an Amazon for those types of returns over time. So, you know, Square is a $67 billion company. There's, I believe there's, there's more room to, for them to grow there. Like you on Shopify for everything you've said. Tesla, same thing. I think it's expensive right now, but I mean, they're, they're continuing to build up these massive giga factories. There's a reason

• 1:45:23Speaker 03

  why every other week they're like announcing a new giga factory, like the demand is there and they have a fantastic product. Yeah, I just love, it's hard to bet against them. Here's one that's interesting that I haven't told you about. So, I don't know if you know this, but Intel is kind of screwed right now. They've had a really hard time with their chip manufacturing and getting this, this new process down, these smaller die chips. AMD has been crushing them. But here's what's interesting. So Apple also moved away from Intel chips and is now doing their own chips, right? So Apple and AMD, but Apple is not using AMD. Apple's using their own silicon and doing everything. So who makes all these chips? It's a company called TSM out

• 1:46:04Speaker 03

  of Taiwan that makes all these next generation. They're like the better version of Intel. So TSM, I think is going to be, I mean, they're already a $375 billion company, so they're not tiny, but TSM is massive. And now also consider this, we're going into the fall, two things are happening, PlayStation, the new PlayStation, the new Xbox are coming out, both of them AMD architecture, both of them being manufactured by TSM in terms of the chips themselves. So I'm excited about TSM. And then, you know, I buy some gold to hedge all of that. And then that's pretty much about it. Oh, you know, Spotify, dude, I think Spotify is going to be seen as

• 1:46:47Speaker 03

  the Netflix of audio and eventually we'll get into video as well. And I think it's going to be, there's a reason they haven't launched Joe Rogan on in the app yet. And I think it's because they're revamping, my gut tells me they're revamping the player and they're going to announce video at the same time. And it's going to be like Spotify is going to be like the next Netflix.

• 1:47:09Tim Ferriss?

  I think that was, so I agree with you and I, one of the discussed publicly discussed, but under discussed aspects of that deal was the inclusion of video that that his show would be coming off of YouTube and going into Spotify, right? This is, that's the thing that people are like, oh yeah, and they're doing the video thing, but okay, but look at the audio and look at the price of the deal. And I'm like, no, no, no, that video is super fucking important. Pay attention to that. That's a big, big, big deal.

• 1:47:39Speaker 03

  It's huge.

• 1:47:40Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah. Yeah. Those guys are smart. They're really smart.

• 1:47:43Speaker 03

  Do they have the Michelle Obama podcast now that's exclusive to Spotify? And like, I was, it's funny, I was talking to, talking about like, speaking of early adopter stuff, I was talking to my wife, Daria, and she's like, you know, she just had this conversation last night. She's like, ah, Google Podcasts is crashing for me. She goes, you know what, I'm just going to use Spotify because everything's there and they got some exclusive content now. And I was like, ding, ding, ding, ding. Like, that's just, you know, it's going to be the default.

• 1:48:08Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, they're smart and they're being very, very aggressive in ways that. Some of their competition really can't. I mean, they technically could, but they're just not designed to be aggressive in the way that Spotify is being aggressive. And I'll be super curious to watch the space, obviously, because I play so much of the podcast world, but.

• 1:48:31Speaker 03

  Do you think you'll ever join them?

• 1:48:33Tim Ferriss?

  I don't know. I don't know. I mean, it would have to be an incredibly good offer. I do. I've thought about this quite a bit. I mean, as it relates to different options, right? Because there have to be some responses or reactions from the big players, right? Like, Apple, Amazon, Google are all going to put a lot of capital and energy into this space because there's money to be had. And if anyone's playing with music, they recognize that the margins and advertising dollars are much more interesting. The economics are much more attractive for podcasts and spoken word. I mean, look at Audible, right? What a monster. So dominant. Another reason that I'm bullish. Actually, one of the reasons

• 1:49:18Tim Ferriss?

  I was really bullish on Amazon is I said, and this actually came from a friend of mine, Mike, who pointed out, and he said, what is going to happen with live sports? How are they going to broadcast sports to millions of people? Who is equipped to handle this right now? And he's like, Amazon with Twitch is equipped to handle this in some fashion, right? Like, there's infrastructure within Amazon that can be adapted for all sorts of gaps in the market.

• 1:49:50Speaker 03

  Well, the beautiful thing is that Amazon gets paid no matter what, because like, who, guess what happens when Google taps out their data centers? What they light up next? They're lighting up Amazon. Yeah, exactly. Everybody's lighting up AWS when this stuff goes big.

• 1:50:04Tim Ferriss?

  Exactly. So, let me ask you a question about, you meant, so a couple of things real quick. So, yes, confirmed that we are not registered investment advisors. And I think it's really important for me to.

• 1:50:18Tim Ferriss?

  Provide a little more context around my comments where I said I put in enough chips where it would be meaningful with say Amazon and Shopify, man, you said Spotify, I always confuse the shit out of those two.

• 1:50:33Tim Ferriss?

  I put, when I put money into both of those companies, I had roughly 14 times more in cash reserves. So this is really important to keep in mind. In other words, at the time, if I put 2% of my liquid net worth into those stocks, I had something like 30% in cash or cash like reserves. So I'm playing it from my perspective as kind of safe in that respect. And I do not recommend people stock pick in general. I just think it's a terrible idea.

• 1:51:11Tim Ferriss?

  And

• 1:51:13Speaker 03

  And the other thing too is if you're gonna, if you're gonna play in this world, like there's no such thing as timing the market and you just never know what's gonna happen. Like always dollar cost average your way into any position. So that that means like if you have $500 to invest, rather than say tomorrow, I'm gonna go buy some Spotify for 500 bucks and just call it a day. Like maybe divide that into five $100 investments over the course of five months or three months, you know? You're not buying at the bottom, you're not buying at the high, but you're getting that blended dollar cost average in. And a lot of people do that as a little mini way to hedge and, you know, because who knows what's gonna happen, given how insane this market is.

• 1:51:51Speaker 03

  The second piece that I think is important to mention is, and I think Tim, you're in this boat too, but I wouldn't be buying anything that I wouldn't want to hold for the next five plus years. So it doesn't really matter.

• 1:52:02Tim Ferriss?

  Super important. I should have said that. I was planning on not touching these for three to five years.

• 1:52:08Speaker 03

  Yeah. So I mean, if something drops by 40%, will I be crushed by looking at the price? Of course. But is, I think long-term, I'm going to be in a just, you know, fine position. And that's the way you kind of, you alluded this to, it has to be something that you're comfortable losing at the same time, right? So it shouldn't be the life savings, right?

• 1:52:28Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah. And we should also say, it's like, we're talking about companies that we actually really fucking. No.

• 1:52:35Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:52:35Tim Ferriss?

  Some level, right? I mean, not, this doesn't mean that it's a different type of knowing than reading every analyst report. And it's just like a deep product knowledge. And the fact that like, we both, like, I, I, I know dozens and hundreds of companies that use Shopify, right? As their e-commerce solution. I use Amazon every day for one thing or another. And I think that's important to keep in mind. And question about, I think my dog really has to pee, so I'm gonna take her out in a minute. She's

• 1:53:16Speaker 03

  Being very good.

• 1:53:17Tim Ferriss?

  We can, we can, we can wrap things up. We can wrap things up. This, this will be a good way to expedite the, the answer to my question, which is, you said you're buying gold. How do you think about gold versus crypto? Because you've been very involved or knowledgeable of and tracking crypto for, for quite a long time. And are you buying ETF? Are you buying, you know, bars in some vault in a foreign country? What are you doing? And why gold versus crypto? How do you think of them, about them differently?

• 1:53:49Speaker 03

  Well, on the gold side, I like to look at the ETFs that, that do warehouse their own gold and actually have, you know, full transparency reports about actually owning the bars. And, you know, so I actually buy the iShares Gold Trust, which is IAU. And I like that a couple that one, they're, the biggest one out there is GLD, but their expense ratios are higher. IAU, I believe there was a couple of things I looked into and it's also like, like, like Providence, like where they're keeping their gold as well. And I you had was keeping in Switzerland. And I think one, I think the UK as well. And it just, I want to make sure where they're storing it is also safe and secure, not

• 1:54:34Speaker 03

  it's not a crazy war zone or something else that could, you know, potentially go really bad on that front.

• 1:54:39Tim Ferriss?

  Bank of Sierra Leone.

• 1:54:41Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's like, you know.

• 1:54:44Speaker 03

  So, you know, I just, I went with that one. There's a, I'm sure that they're all, the big ones are all probably pretty decent. But in terms of crypto, you know, I have a bunch of cryptocurrency that is not yet tradable that I've invested in over the last few years and so that hasn't hit the market yet. So I already see my crypto bucket as being pretty full. I don't think holding Bitcoin or Ethereum is a bad idea. I just wouldn't make it any substantial portion of my overall portfolio. Like I wouldn't, it wouldn't be 10% or something crazy, you know?

• 1:55:19Tim Ferriss?

  Why do you have less confidence in crypto than gold? If I'm, that's a leading question, but I'm just making an assumption here. And that does not to imply that I am a superbowl with crypto, but it seems like in some respects, you are more confident in gold as a disaster hedge versus crypto. Why, why would that be the case if it's true?

• 1:55:42Speaker 03

  Well, I just, it is true. And I believe that you have to look at what are the safe asset choices that institutional investors have direct access to. And there is no easy way, you know, ETF to buy cryptocurrency. It's just not there yet. And, and I just, it's not to say that people won't turn to crypto and the prices won't, you know, 5X by the time this video is released, like who knows? But I just, I know that gold is so time tested that I just, I feel it's, it's, it's a, it's a proper, it's a, it's a, it's a proper hedge and I'm okay with, with, with having some portion of my portfolio being gold.

• 1:56:27Tim Ferriss?

  Now, do you view that as a hedge against hyperinflation, a hedge against general equity collapse? What are you hedging with gold?

• 1:56:35Speaker 03

  I would say a little bit of both, but mostly general, general equity collapse. Like just something I'm hedging in that I believe if all like, let's just say we have a vaccine that doesn't work and this turns into a three or four year process instead of a one year and change process, jobs don't come back, that's going to be a pretty brutal place to play, right? Like the markets, I think at that point might start to sour. It's very confusing why they haven't today, but like, you know, in that case, I would like a little more something, a little more, something that's a little bit more concrete, like having gold as part of a portfolio, but that's, that's just me, everybody's different. I have some friends that won't touch the stuff. So, and then I have some friends that actually

• 1:57:20Speaker 03

  have bars in there, like actual physical gold bars, which I'm sure you know some of those people as well.

• 1:57:25Tim Ferriss?

  I do, yeah.

• 1:57:26Speaker 03

  You probably have some.

• 1:57:28Tim Ferriss?

  No, I don't, I don't actually, but I'm just like, I'm like, if it gets that bad.

• 1:57:32Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:57:32Tim Ferriss?

  Where it's like Mad Max and marauders, are you gonna drive your fucking dune buggy with machine guns down to the 711 and like, take a razor blade and shave off a sliver of gold to get your tampons? Like, no, you're not.

• 1:57:44Speaker 03

  Right. Like Tim's on the corner with like a little, little hatchet, like, it's like etching off some gold and like trading it for some lentils.

• 1:57:51Tim Ferriss?

  If it gets that bad, like you're going to have to use your gold as a weapon because it's not going to have any functional value. But I mean, who knows? I mean, it's, uh, God, it just feeds every like, not paranoid, but sort of apocalyptic scenario planning compulsion that I have. So I try to, I try to not get wrapped up in it because it's so, it's so seductive, it's so seductive. But, cool. Well, thanks for, thanks for, thanks for answering that. Yeah. I, um, I think people should be prepared for a long haul, right? Like it's, it's, I think it's very dangerous to try to do any short-term trading. And I actually heard an anecdote, I'm not going to mention any names, but one of the, one of the best

• 1:58:35Tim Ferriss?

  known hedge fund investors in the world who has an incredible, incredible track record. I mean, the guy's, his compounded annual returns over decades is, are just ludicrous. And

• 1:58:49Tim Ferriss?

  He came in, this is a couple of weeks ago, and basically like said to his team, he's like, guys, it's too fucking hard. Just like, take a vacation. We're not gonna do, we're not gonna try to deal with this right now. So if that is happening in like, one of the top shops in the world, I don't think it's a good idea for 99.999% of people to do any short-term trading. You're gonna get eaten alive. Either by other traders who do this 24/7, or high-frequency folks, or you're just gonna get murdered by the market, right? As the saying goes, the market can remain irrational longer than you can remain solvent.

• 1:59:29Speaker 03

  Yeah. It's crazy when you read these reddits, subreddits about, you know, these Robin Hood traders that are using that app to leverage their positions. And like, these kids are going in there and just getting these crazy leveraged positions on certain things. I mean, they're driving up bankrupt companies like Hertz and all these to like, new record highs. And you're just like, this is not, we shouldn't be playing. Don't, don't play with this stuff. Well, that one kid, that poor kid, I don't know, did you hear about what happened?

• 1:59:57Tim Ferriss?

  I don't know. There are a lot of poor kids these days. Which one are you talking about?

• 2:00:00Speaker 03

  This one got, so, you know, Robin Hood, the app, it's, it's a fantastic trading app. It's a great piece of software, but it allows people to opt into options trading and leveraged trading like, with like, three clicks. It's like, super.

• 2:00:14Tim Ferriss?

  That's terrifying to me.

• 2:00:15Speaker 03

  Oh, I know. So, so these kids go in, and this one kid put in, I don't, I don't know what the dollar amount was, but he, he got on the wrong side of being leveraged. And it saw, he saw, I mean, he didn't know these things were gonna expire, and he saw like, a negative, like, I don't make them number, but it was something like a hundred thousand dollars negative account. And he killed himself.

• 2:00:34Tim Ferriss?

  Oh, my God.

• 2:00:35Speaker 03

  All over Robin Hood, and this, and just a misunderstanding of what was gonna happen in the end. And just got so wrapped up doing it. And it's, oof, it's fire.

• 2:00:47Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, it is. Honestly, for me, you know, another reason why I'm just hitting pause on all this stuff is that, you know, for me, These days, like the function of investing, and that can be applied to time and energy, but certainly capital is to increase your quality of life, right? So if, if, if one agrees that that is, let's just take that as the primary objective. If you're making investments that cause you to lose sleep and chew your fingernails and have cortisol pour out your eyeballs, it's a bad investment. It doesn't matter if it's 2X's, 10X's, 100X's. If for a protracted period of time, it's going to have that psychological, psychoemotional effect on you, it's not a good investment.

• 2:01:32Tim Ferriss?

  And, you know, I've learned that the hard way too, right? I've chased returns, certainly in the startup world and all this stuff. And I was like, this fucking sucks. Like, this is not fun. And even if you're good at it, doesn't mean you should do it.

• 2:01:45Speaker 03

  Like, watch after this podcast comes out, like venison futures are gonna like shoot up and like, Tim mentions venison is the future.

• 2:01:53Tim Ferriss?

  Venison is the future, Maui Newey. Get after it. Cool, man. Well, it's, it's awesome to see you, brother.

• 2:01:58Speaker 03

  Yeah, good to see you too.

• 2:02:00Tim Ferriss?

  And I miss hanging out and it's a bummer to not be able to spend time in person. So hopefully we'll be able to do that before too long.

• 2:02:07Speaker 03

  Yeah, agreed, dude. It's been, been too long. It was, I'm actually really glad that you got to visit us just before this whole COVID thing happened, you know? It wasn't that many months before, so it was good to see you then. But it's, uh, it's been, it's, it's tough. It's tough. Stuck in the house, all, it's hard with significant others too, you know? It's like you really realize what your relationship's made of, but.

• 2:02:28Tim Ferriss?

  You get, you get to see all the stuff.

• 2:02:30Speaker 03

  Exactly.

• 2:02:30Tim Ferriss?

  And all your stuff. I've got no shortage of, of my stuff, you know? It's a daily project. And anything else you want to say before we wrap up?

• 2:02:40Speaker 03

  No.

• 2:02:40Tim Ferriss?

  Where people can find you, anything like that?

• 2:02:42Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, I'm not on social really these days. I do tweet every once in a while, at Kevin Rose. But, um, yeah, I would say one thing I would like to mention is if people want to check out that Zen interview I did on my podcast with Henry, I thought it was quite good. It was like, you know, and I'm sure you, Tim, you get like this too, you probably obviously don't say it publicly, but you record episodes and you're like, oh, my episode was just okay, you know? It's like, you know, sometimes you're like.

• 2:03:07Tim Ferriss?

  Every once in a while, you get one of those, yeah.

• 2:03:09Speaker 03

  Yeah, so this one, I was like, wow, actually, I think I did a pretty decent job with this one. So I was, I was pretty proud of it. So I think people will enjoy this one with, with, with Henry Schickman. And you can find that at podcast.kevinrose.com.

• 2:03:22Tim Ferriss?

  Sweet. And for me.

• 2:03:26Tim Ferriss?

  Really love doing the Hugh Jackman interview.

• 2:03:30Speaker 03

  That must have been huge for you, dude.

• 2:03:32Tim Ferriss?

  It was amazing. Yeah, it was just a dream come true. I mean, he's been on the wishlist forever and he just was so game. So if people want to check that out, I think it's just tim.blog/ Hugh.

• 2:03:43Speaker 03

  I gotta listen to it because Dario was like, did you hear that Tim interviewed Hugh Jackman? I'm like, the first thing out of my mouth is I was like, he must have been shitting himself. Like, that's like your dream episode. Yeah.

• 2:03:54Tim Ferriss?

  I was super nervous. It was great. It was great. So.

• 2:03:58Speaker 03

  Did you ask him about his training and stuff?

• 2:04:00Tim Ferriss?

  I did, yeah.

• 2:04:01Speaker 03

  Oh, I knew you would have. Yeah.

• 2:04:02Tim Ferriss?

  During Wolverine and everything. I was like, if you could only choose one exercise, what would it be and why? And what would the protocol be? He gave, he really gave the details and got it.

• 2:04:12Speaker 03

  Oh, that's exciting. That's awesome.

• 2:04:15Tim Ferriss?

  So that one, I'd recommend people check out. If you just search my name and Hugh Jackman or go to the, your podcast app of choice. And then also I'd say, one thing that I am still doing that I'm still really enjoying is Five Bullet Friday, which is the newsletter that goes out to between one and two million people every Friday. It's free. It's just five bullets of the five coolest things that I've come across that week or that I'm thinking about using, experimenting with, pondering. And you can find that at tim.blog/Friday.

• 2:04:42Speaker 03

  Sweet.

• 2:04:43Tim Ferriss?

  That's it for me, man. But give a hug to the fam for me. I miss you guys.

• 2:04:47Speaker 03

  Yeah, miss you guys too. And yeah, let your dog go pee.

• 2:04:51Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah. All right, Molly, Molly, thanks us for getting off.

• 2:04:55Speaker 03

  All right.

• 2:04:55Tim Ferriss?

  And, all right, brother.

• 2:04:58Speaker 03

  All right, see you.

• 2:05:05Tim Ferriss?

  Hey, guys, this is Tim again. Just a few more things before you take off. Number one, this is Five Bullet Friday. Do you want to get a short email from me? Would you enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday that provides a little morsel of fun before the weekend? And Five Bullet Friday is a very short email where I share the coolest things I've found or that I've been pondering over the week. That could include favorite new albums that I've discovered. It could include gizmos and gadgets and all sorts of weird shit that I've somehow dug up. In the world of the esoteric as I do, it could include favorite articles that I've read and that I've shared with my close friends,

• 2:05:46Tim Ferriss?

  for instance. And it's very short. It's just a little tiny bite of goodness before you head off for the weekend. So if you want to receive that, check it out, just go to fourhourworkweek.com. That's fourhourworkweek.com all spelled out and just drop in your email and you will get the very next one. And if you sign up, I hope you enjoy it. This episode is brought to you by LegalZoom. It's a whole new world out there and we're all facing new challenges. You may need legal help to overcome some of yours and that's where LegalZoom fits in. Maybe you've been wondering about the best way to protect your family, or maybe you're thinking about starting a business, but you don't know the best way to do it. Don't let legal questions hold you back. LegalZoom has been dedicated to helping you find the right solutions for nearly 20 years. If you're looking to protect

• 2:06:29Tim Ferriss?

  your family with a will or a living trust or something else, or you're thinking about the right way to start a business with an LLC, nonprofit, or more, LegalZoom's got you covered. It's easy to get started online and if you need guidance, their network of attorneys can provide advice to ensure you make the right choices. And since LegalZoom isn't a law firm, you won't get charged by the hour. So check it out. Visit LegalZoom.com today to take care of the important things that need to get done. That's LegalZoom.com. LegalZoom, where life meets legal. This episode is brought to you by Allform. If you've been listening to this podcast for a while, you've probably heard me talk about Helix Sleep and their mattresses, which I've been using since 2017. I have two of them upstairs from where I'm sitting at this

• 2:07:11Tim Ferriss?

  moment. And now Helix has gone beyond the bedroom and started making sofas. They just launched a new company called Allform, A-L-L-F-O-R-M, and they're making premium customizable sofas and chairs shipped right to your door at a fraction of the cost of traditional stores. So I'm sitting in my living room right now and it's entirely Allform furniture. I've got two chairs, I've got an ottoman, and I have an L-sectional couch. I'll come back to that. You can pick your fabric. They're all spill, stain, and scratch resistant. The sofa color, the color of the legs, the sofa size, the shape to make sure it's perfect for you and your home. Also, Allform arrives in just three to seven days and you can assemble it all yourself in a few minutes. No tools needed. I was quite astonished by how modular and easy these things fit together, kind of like Lego pieces.

• 2:07:56Tim Ferriss?

  They've got armchairs, love seats, all the way up to an eight-seat sectional, so there's something for everyone. You can also start small and kind of build on top of it if you wanted to get a smaller couch and then build out on it, which is actually in a way what I did because I can turn my L-sectional couch into a normal straight couch and then with a separate ottoman in a matter of about 60 seconds. It's pretty rad. So, I mentioned I have all of these different things in this room. I use the natural leg finish, which is their lightest color, and I dig it. I mean, I've been using these things hours and hours and hours every single day. So, I am using what I am sharing with you guys. And if getting a sofa without trying it in-store sounds risky, you don't need to worry. Allform sofas are delivered directly to your home with fast, free shipping and you get

• 2:08:40Tim Ferriss?

  100 days to decide if you want to keep it. That's more than three months, and if you don't love it, they'll pick it up for free and give you a full refund. Your sofa frame also has a forever warranty that's literally forever. So, check it out. Take a look. They've got all sorts of cool stuff to choose from. I was skeptical and it actually worked. It worked much better than I could have imagined and I'm very, very happy. So, to find your perfect sofa, check out allform.com/tim. That's A-L-L-F-O-R-M dot com slash tim. Allform is offering 20% off all orders to you, my dear listeners, at allform.com/tim. Make sure to use the code TIM at checkout. That's allform.com/tim and use code TIM at checkout.