Elizabeth Holmes Breaks Silence, Jamie Dimon Locks In, Machine Parts Pizza Tracker, Monkeys on Macbooks

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Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00John Coogan?

  Welcome to Technology Brothers, the number one live show in tech. We are live from the temple of technology, the fortress of finance, the capital of capital. It is Friday, February 14th, Valentine's Day 2025. This show starts now. Jordy, you're back on the West Coast. Give us an update.

• 0:19Jordi Hays?

  Look, John, if us telling you it was Valentine's Day at this very moment is a surprise, you're probably already kind of in a bad spot with your lady. So I hope that our, you know, basically daily reminders this week and last week were helpful in getting people prepared for this monumental moment. Whatever your girlfriend, wife, mistress says she thinks about Valentine's Day, it's important to her. You got to pull out the stops, get creative. We gave, you know, we gave a gift guide, but you know, there's, there's plenty of, of, of ways to impress today. So we're recording early today for the West Coast and after,

• 1:00Jordi Hays?

  after that, we'll be taking a little bit of time away to hang out with our lovely wives.

• 1:06John Coogan?

  We got a fantastic show today. We're talking about Alex Karp. There's a profile on him in the Wall Street Journal. The Gundo Boys, our boys are in The Economist now. The puff pieces just don't stop for these guys. They just get higher and higher.

• 1:22Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, they, they, they've transitioned from attempted hit pieces to everybody realizing that it's just such fantastic content that they end up being puff pieces.

• 1:33John Coogan?

  Totally.

• 1:34Jordi Hays?

  And so.

• 1:35John Coogan?

  So we'll break it down. Then we're going on to a Wall Street Journal deep dive on how the Trump family is making money. They have, it's not just the coins. It's not just the SPACs. They're all over the place. They're, they're doing 360 deals. They're selling documentaries. You'll hear all about it. We're going to go through the timeline, but first we're going back to Valentine's Day. What better Valentine's Day gift for the woman you love if she happens to be in federal prison than getting her presidential pardon? We're going to Elizabeth Holmes, who gave her first prison interview to People Magazine. If you're in a relationship with someone who's in jail, get them out, get them out. Start lobbying.

• 2:11Jordi Hays?

  Start with the People Magazine feature.

• 2:13John Coogan?

  Exactly. And the media. Is the immediate precursor to actually drawing enough attention to get on the presidential pardon docket. It worked for Ross Ulbricht and who knows, maybe it'll work for Elizabeth. Let's go to Dan Primack. He says Elizabeth Holmes prison interview. He shares the link. 12 likes, 13 retweets, clearly nerfed in the algorithm, but built different. He posted it anyway. Feedback to this post, not great. Lots of people say, seems like she wants to copy paste the Ross Ulbricht playbook. Another guy says, we don't care, but we're different on the show. We do care. So we're going to read it to you. Elizabeth Holmes breaks her

• 2:53John Coogan?

  silence in first interview from prison. It's been hell and torture. The former STANOS CEO convicted of fraud shares her details of her life behind bars and separation from her family. And so let's go through some of this. I'll read a couple of paragraphs, then I want your hot take, Jordy. Twice a week for a few fleeting hours. Life is sweet for the 41 year old Elizabeth Holmes. It's when her kids, William III and Invicta II snuggle in her lap and talk excitedly about insect and ant farms and sea creatures. Her son builds Legos and her daughter dismantles them. Seemingly unaware of the beeping of metal detectors and the watchful eyes of guards at federal prison camp Brian in Texas, the children

• 3:35John Coogan?

  and their father, Holmes partner Billy Evans, 33, enjoy each moment together. And like always, their most recent visit ended with a ritual when their time was up. The children pressed their fingers together to make a heart sign, saying in unison, mommy, this is our love, to which their mother responded, our love is a superpower. Watching them leave through the secured glass door that separates her from freedom shatters my world every single time, says Holmes. The people I love the most have to walk away as I stand here a prisoner and my reality sinks in. Rough. What do you think, Jordy?

• 4:10Jordi Hays?

  Super rough. You know, she, you know, I don't know the full backstory and the full sort of timeline on when exactly she decided or, you know, ended up having children. But, you know, part of this positioning, it did, you know, there was sort of a narrative that she was actually, you know, interested, you know, part of the idea of like, you know, let's, let's have a bunch of kids was potentially oriented around building this narrative that, hey, I'm a mom, you're taking me away from like my young children, which is, which is ignore all the facts and the circumstances.

• 4:50Jordi Hays?

  Just the nature of being a mom, you know, separated from her young children is deeply tragic. You know, you have kids, I have kids. The idea, you know, my kids, I can noticeably see them not doing so well after literally two hours away from moms and like, or our youngest, and I'm sure you're, you're two.

• 5:12John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 5:13Jordi Hays?

  Uh, even like, they're just in a better mood. Like, they're just doing better when mom is in their orbit. And so before we get into any of the sort of analysis or the facts or the sort of takes, I would say, I would just say that it's, it's, you know, irrespective of what, you know, Holmes, you know, did and the crimes that she committed. It's, it's just a very sad, sad situation.

• 5:38John Coogan?

  Yeah, I mean, she's 41 now. She's served two years of an 11 and a quarter year sentence that's been reduced to nine years. So she has seven more years, but she was 39 when she was convicted and sent off to this nine year stint. What are you gonna do? You wait nine years, you're probably not gonna be able to have kids at all. So

• 6:00Jordi Hays?

  That's true.

• 6:01John Coogan?

  There is this like, I understand where the narrative came from of like, oh, she did this on purpose to like, win Curry favor. But at the same time, like, having kids before your 40 is just generally advisable. So it's not that crazy of an idea, even though obviously it's turmoil while you're in the clink.

• 6:21John Coogan?

  So she is serving a nine-year sentence for fraud and conspiracy over the collapse of Theranos, the billion-dollar biotech corporation she founded. She is speaking out for the first time in a prison interview conducted in a cold visitation room furnished with vending machines and blue plastic chairs. Gone are the black turtlenecks and crimson lipstick she wore when she dazzled Silicon Valley and the national media as a bold CEO of a startup. Her company promised to revolutionize the healthcare industry with cheap diagnostic testing and devices able to screen patients for hundreds of diseases with a few drops of blood. Now she wears drab, khaki prison garb with her blonde hair pulled back, bare makeup, and a silver cross around her neck, speaking in a voice notably softer than the throaty

• 7:04John Coogan?

  baritone she was known for. "I'm not the same person I was back then," says Holmes, who pleaded not guilty at her trial and maintains her innocence today, albeit while vaguely acknowledging, "There are things I would have done differently," on her path to lockup. "It's surreal. People who have never met me before believe so strongly about me. They don't understand who I am. It forces you to spend a lot of time questioning belief and hoping the truth will prevail. I am walking by faith and ultimately the truth. But it's been hell and torture in here." At 20, she dropped out of Stanford, her sophomore year, to focus on developing healthcare technology on a mission to save lives. In 2003, she launched Theranos, which secured a $9 billion valuation in a decade.

• 7:47John Coogan?

  Hailed as next Steve Jobs and backed by investors such as Rupert Murdoch and the family behind Walmart, Holmes became the youngest self-made billionaire in 2014. But following the publication of an expose in the Wall Street Journal that questioned the accuracy of the company's testing technology, a federal probe led to the indictment of Holmes and her fellow executive, Sonny Balwani, her secret boyfriend at the time, on charges of misleading investors and defrauding them, along with patients for hundreds of millions of dollars. Very rough situation.

• 8:19Jordi Hays?

  Really rough. You know, ultimately...

• 8:25Jordi Hays?

  You know, I don't, I don't think it makes sense in this context to try to psychoanalyze her too much, right? And I do believe that the, her going to prison and have to be every single day face to face with the reality that her freedom was taken away because of things that she did, right? She admits that she would have done things differently. If you look at the approach that she took, she applied the move fast and break things methodology Yep. that was popularized by, you know, in that era by, you know, Mark Zuckerberg and other, you know, founders, but applied it to healthcare in a scenario where human, human

• 9:10Jordi Hays?

  life was on the line and healthcare outcomes were on the line. And it's just, there's totally a world where she was building SaaS or a social media app. And it actually, you know, it's, it's much easier to visualize a SaaS app in your mind. And if you have billions of dollars, you'll be able to execute against that. Yep. And she, I do believe that she clearly visualized this future of being able to test for all these different things for the single drop of blood. Yep. I believe that she firmly, you know, believed in that and, and genuinely felt that she could execute against that with the right amount of resources. But over time,

• 9:53Jordi Hays?

  it just became obvious that, you know, and I, and I believe it's widely sort of known at this point, but it's worth restating, you know, this was not a Silicon Valley startup despite being started out of Stanford, right? Like the investors were people like Rupert Murdoch and a lot of the best, you know, biotech funds in Silicon Valley passed on the company. And in the short term, their LPs were probably telling them. What are you guys doing? How did you miss this one?

• 10:18John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 10:19Jordi Hays?

  And they were ultimately proven right, but you know, in the scenario where she was building consumer, a consumer mobile app or SaaS, she would have been able to actually execute against the product. But then clearly her and the rest of the executive team,

• 10:35Jordi Hays?

  you know, made decisions along the way that were just, you know, deeply, deeply wrong, right? In terms of shipping things that they knew weren't working, you know, trying to continue to execute on big partnerships that they had, you know, it was CVS that they had the part like major, or was it Walgreens or CVS? I forget. But ultimately, you know, a series of just like very bad, very bad decisions. And, and you know, she's experiencing the consequences of those now. I don't know the, it's hard for me to see a scenario where she, where Trump has some big incentive to, you know, pardon her. I don't see that path, you know, maybe, maybe, you know, we can get into it in a little bit, but

• 11:21Jordi Hays?

  not a, you know, doesn't, doesn't seem like a very straight line, right? There's not a, you know, what she wants to, she wants to apply the Ross Ulbricht playbook. But to understand the Ross Ulbricht playbook, you have to understand that every single libertarian, you know, maximalist was backing Ross for years and years and years with huge amounts of resources and active boots on the ground in Washington. And, you know, it was not a, you know, it was a, basically, when did, when did Ross actually get convicted and go to prison?

• 11:58John Coogan?

  He was in prison for 10 years, essentially.

• 12:00Jordi Hays?

  Yeah. So it's like,

• 12:01John Coogan?

  So she'd be out by the time that playbook ran through.

• 12:05Jordi Hays?

  Yeah. So even if she had that type of backing, it might still take a decade and then she'd be out anyway. So I think that she seems to be very motivated by the spotlight. I know that, that she's already working on,

• 12:22Jordi Hays?

  it's either a series or a, a movie, like a non documentary, like a sort of drama on the situation.

• 12:31John Coogan?

  She is?

• 12:32Jordi Hays?

  She is, yeah.

• 12:33John Coogan?

  How is she involved? She's in prison.

• 12:36Jordi Hays?

  No, I'm just saying she's like approved it and she's worked.

• 12:39John Coogan?

  Yeah, like sold life rights or something. Interesting.

• 12:42Jordi Hays?

  The main documentary was so was so bad that, you know, there's a scenario where she does it actually more semi you know, a drama sort of fictionalized a little, it would come out better.

• 12:54John Coogan?

  Yeah, yeah. I mean, there's a million ways that the Theranos story could have gone differently. Obviously, using the tier one venture funds as a true gating mechanic or the biotech funds as a gating mechanic. And there's often this time, this happens a lot with founders where they get turned down by all the best VCs in their industry. And they say, ah, I'm built different. I still need to go raise a ton of money. And then they raise from unsophisticated investors. And then the business plan doesn't work out. And it turns out that the tier ones actually saw something, a flaw in the business model that would only be realized later. Now, sometimes, you know, tier ones turned down and you go and you build your own thing and everything works out perfectly.

• 13:33Jordi Hays?

  We talked, we talked about this, you know, with with OpenAI, right? A lot of people turned down OpenAI because they're like, this is like the most weird rationalist, you know, uh, uh, you know, nonprofit, you know, if we can't make this work, we like the team, we like the vision, but this model doesn't work for us.

• 13:51John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 13:52Jordi Hays?

  In this situation, it was more so on the like actual diligence side. So, you know, people love to, to

• 13:59Jordi Hays?

  talk poorly about VCs for lacking, uh, doing proper diligence on opportunities. But in this case, I really do think it was, hey, this, this woman is clearly compelling, Stanford dropout, highly motivated. She, she clearly is very talented at fundraising, but ultimately people are like, eh, like, I want to believe that this is possible, but everyone is telling us, you know, people have been, I think this was one of those things like people, the entire medical industry, you know, healthcare industry would have been incentivized to make this tech work for decades. Right? And there's probably been, you know, thousands of studies and, and experiments to attempt to make this possible. And so I'm imagining people looked at this and said, hey, you know, this has actually been tried before.

• 14:44Jordi Hays?

  And that's ultimately oftentimes why VCs pass, right? I was looking at a company yesterday. With a buddy? And I'm like, look, like, here's, here's a very clear example of like, a better iteration of this idea and a, and a more stacked team with more funding. And it didn't work for these reasons. Like, you need to show me why this new team is going to be able to do, you know, the same thing and actually make it work, right?

• 15:08John Coogan?

  Yeah. Yeah, I mean, so many different ways to, to build a business that looks somewhat like the mission of Theranos without getting over your skis. You know, we're seeing this with function and superpower now where blood testing clearly is a real market and they act as almost like wrappers on top of Quest Labs and LabCorp. Now, those companies do seem to have some sort of cornered resource or some sort of monopoly over the actual physical lab space. And so no startup's been really able to break in there. But I also know a guy who started a medical device company, got it approved, and it was a box that did a diagnostic and he sold it into doctors' offices. And, and, and the value prop was very simple.

• 15:50John Coogan?

  It was if you're a doctor and you want to test for this blood marker, normally you would have to send it out, but instead you can buy this machine. It's expensive, but you can spend, you, you, you can bring that capex internally. Maybe there's some financing there, but in general, you do that test onsite, gets you rapid results and it's approved. And he eventually sold that company to Roche Pharmaceuticals for hundreds of millions of dollars. And it was just like a very, like, clean, like, by the book, like, one marker, they built the box, they sold it. It was great, great outcome for everyone. And, and Theranos clearly could have done that, or they could have wrapped, they, they could have started by wrapping, you know, LabCorp if they wanted to go the consumer direction. They could have done a bunch of different things. It was clearly just that she was telling this, like, okay, we're going to be able to

• 16:34John Coogan?

  do so much with so little blood. And my, my, my, like, hot take on this was always that, so she was, she was fearful of blood draws. And so she wanted to be able to do a ton of diagnostics with just one pinprick of, of like, finger blood. But there's just not enough and like, kind of the laws of physics come in and essentially break it down. It's maybe theoretically possible, but it, but it's like, clearly a massive, massive engineering challenge. And My problem was just that I think that's a skill issue and I think like you should just kind of man up and just give a bunch of blood and every time I go in to get blood labs, I'm just like, yeah, take, take six vials, whatever, like I'm fine and it doesn't bother

• 17:16John Coogan?

  me. And I think building for that narrow audience of people who are fearful about giving blood is like, uh, maybe, maybe the wrong motivation, but it's very emotional. And so you could see a lot of investors saying, hey, I happen to be, I happen to have the same thing. I don't like giving, you know, six vials of blood just to know my testosterone levels and my cholesterol.

• 17:35Jordi Hays?

  And this was, this was some of the pushback on, on companies like Function and Superpower from investors early on is, hey, you have this cool consumer, you know, product, this consumer app that you're building, but it's dependent on getting customers to actually physically go to a lab and gives, give six vials of blood. Conversion is going to be, you know, tough on that. And the other thing for women to actually get accurate blood biomarkers, they need to go at a specific time of the month due to their cycle. So if you go at the wrong time, then you know, you're getting a way different hormone profile than, than maybe is baseline. So.

• 18:15John Coogan?

  Yeah. There's also a lot of like over self diagnosis with a lot of these, uh, like uh, blood metric companies. Like you, you could imagine, okay, you're just testing yourself every single day and you're freaking out because like one day you're, you're, you know, cholesterol is a little higher than usual. And so you're doing some crazy intervention and you're not living a life that's like just in tune with yourself and kind of, it's like that Will Menites quote about, uh, like you should be able to just like, how do you feel? You know?

• 18:43Jordi Hays?

  Right. Is that doctor? Dr. Bill Menites?

• 18:45John Coogan?

  Yeah. Dr. Bill Menites, uh, the, the world renowned expert. Um, but, uh, there is something to that where if you, if you give the patient to, you can give them actually too much data and then they become hypochondriacs and then they freak out every time some metric slides off just slightly. Uh, and so little bit of trouble.

• 19:04Jordi Hays?

  Yeah. It's such an interesting, it's such an interesting scenario where.

• 19:09Jordi Hays?

  The all of humanity should have should have desperately wanted Theranos to work, right? It clearly would have just been such a fantastic innovation that would have saved, you know, countless lives and enabled, you know, much better, you know, biomarker analysis. And you could have argued, I'm sure she was in pitch meetings like, you know, when we roll this out, we're going to be able to increase humanity's lifespan on average by six years or something like that because we're going to be able to do early detection for all this stuff. And, uh, you know, now it's almost, you know, over 20 years later from when she founded the company.

• 19:42John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 19:43Jordi Hays?

  If you, you know, we're still doing the same thing and the same, you know, the other, the other thing is, is, um, one of the challenges with having to take so much, so much blood to get, you know, these actual real analysis done is because, uh, you know, labs are a snapshot of you in that exact moment, right? So I've, I've gone in and I've had, I've done testing sometimes and I'm like, wow, my testosterone is like falling off of a cliff.

• 20:09John Coogan?

  Yeah, yeah. Cause you were just fasted or something.

• 20:11Jordi Hays?

  Yeah. And then I go, you know, the next, the next, you know, three months later and it's, and it's back up to, you know, beyond what, what my expectation was.

• 20:18John Coogan?

  Through the super physiological levels, you're at like 3,000.

• 20:21Jordi Hays?

  And so, so yeah, it's, it's, it's, uh, a very sad situation where, you know, FTX going away didn't really impact anything other than, you know, cause customer damage.

• 20:31John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 20:32Jordi Hays?

  But, and, and you could argue like, there's people that were rooting for it to fail because they were saying, oh, we only have five engineers and, you know, we're, you know, worth $40 billion. You remember they like, that was part of the FTX narrative is they were like, we have no, we have basically no, our technical team is like five people.

• 20:49John Coogan?

  Wow.

• 20:50Jordi Hays?

  And, uh, in the opposite situation with Theranos, it's like, everybody should wish that this worked and I would hope that somebody pulls this off and whoever eventually does this.

• 21:02John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 21:03Jordi Hays?

  An absolute legend.

• 21:05John Coogan?

  Yeah, I just think it'll be a much more iterative approach. It'll be okay.

• 21:09Jordi Hays?

  One, you know.

• 21:09John Coogan?

  We made, yeah, yeah, we made the big aluminum machine a little bit smaller. And then it went from, you know, the lab, like warehouse, like facility into the doctor's office. And then eventually it'd be, it goes in the trunk of a car that a phlebotomist can come to your house and do a draw and, and turn around really quickly. And then eventually, yeah, it's like the size of a toaster and you can get it. But you got to iterate through those, jumping straight from, you know, a pint of blood or something or to just one, one drop. Clearly like a very bold ambition, like great visual pitch, but unfortunately just too much from a science and, and engineering perspective.

• 21:50John Coogan?

  Let's keep reading her, her interview. Holmes is still processing the downfall that wiped away her entire fortune. And she considers her trial and conviction a San Jose, in a San Jose courtroom in 2022, to be a miscarriage of justice. First, it was about accepting it happened, says Holmes about her relationship with Balwani. Then it was about forgiving myself for my own part, and I refused to plead guilty to crimes I did not commit. Theranos failed, but failure is not fraud. On the stand, doctors and patients testified that blood tests Holmes developed and marketed were a healthcare scam. One woman claimed the test results showed she had a miscarriage when she was actually pregnant. Another patient was told he might have prostate cancer when he didn't.

• 22:35John Coogan?

  A third received a false HIV diagnosis. And this is where the, the rubber meets the road with the Theranos, like harm that the, that they, that the move fast and break things ideology, like, like, you know, if you're building a social app or an NFT project, like people could lose money, people could, you know, have, you know, some weird thing happen on the internet. The app doesn't work or whatever. Your chat GPT, you get some hallucinated response. But this is like real impact on health and wellness.

• 23:06Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, and to.

• 23:10Jordi Hays?

  Just just giving her the benefit, you know, a little credit, misdiagnosis happens every single day, right? I'm sure there's millions, just in the US, you know, maybe not millions, but could be something like there's 300,000, you know, misdiagnosed patients per day in America or whatever, just spitballing, right? But these, they were have, these kinds of things happen at a much lower rate than her product, which, which was so unreliable, it was unethical to let patients in a, in life or death scenarios, right? This guy thinks he, he might have prostate cancer.

• 23:48John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 23:48Jordi Hays?

  Based on the results of this.

• 23:50John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 23:51Jordi Hays?

  And, uh, yeah, it's just, it's, it's doing emotional damage, right? Telling this woman in this situation that she had a miscarriage when, uh, when she didn't, that's like incredibly, you know, damaging to, to a woman's psyche. Uh, and again, it just never should have actually gotten to the point where it was in production, right? Like this was a, uh, you know, this, and so there's very clear, um, and again, you know, she's putting her spin on this, people is not going to put her in the truth zone so much, but, uh, uh, we, we have to do our part.

• 24:26John Coogan?

  Yeah. Yeah. There was another element of it where, uh, you'd go in to do like the Theranos pin prick test, but then they would actually just do a normal blood draw and send it out to Quest Labs, uh, which was a little fraudulent, but I think that there was a way that they could have done that in a very positive way, in the same way that, uh, you know, you go into one of those Amazon stores and they say it's all AI, but they still have people monitoring the cameras. You're in a Waymo, there's a human watching over and they can take over the feed if they need to, if they get confused, oh, there's a cone that they don't understand, human can step in, uh, human intervention and intervening with a, with a more robust system on its face does, if you're upfront about it, doesn't seem like a problem to me. It would have been fine if I went in and said, hey, I want to get a blood draw from Theranos. And they're like, hey, we're still working on the pin

• 25:11John Coogan?

  prick thing. We're going to do that one, but then we're also going to do one with Quest and, and the gold standard, just to make sure that we don't make any mistakes here. That could have been great for the brand, actually.

• 25:20Jordi Hays?

  Yeah. It's, it's one of those things, if they rolled it out as, as a more of a trial and said, hey, you're going to go to Walgreens or CVS and you're going to get. Your regular blood test and we are also going to do a prick and you're enrolling in that and you're not relying on that for for health data. We got a question in the chat from the Chrome. He says, do you think that their ordeal increase the amount of due diligence happening generally in biotech? And I would, I would argue like probably not. I think, I think the the actual, you know, traditional deep tech biotech investors in the valley, like almost unilaterally passed on the company because of their due diligence. And I think

• 26:04Jordi Hays?

  in many cases, they probably didn't even have to do that much. Right? You call up a single, she also was was non-technical.

• 26:11John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 26:11Jordi Hays?

  So having, you know, this sort of very, you know, a non-technical founder promising that she's going to do something that that the experts or other, you know, medical device manufacturers and and scientists have been trying to do for decades and been unable to. And she says, well, if you just give me like billions of dollars, I'll, you know, we're going to actually do it, you know, or, you know, I'm sure in some of these pitch meetings, she's like, yeah, internal testing shows that we're one to one with, you know, with traditional, you know, blood testing, right?

• 26:44John Coogan?

  Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there's a big question here about who was really driving the the aggression at the company, her or Sonny Balwani? And during her case, she, her defense attorney made the, what's it called, the Svengali defense, saying that he kind of pushed her to create this narrative and perpetrate this fraud.

• 27:08Jordi Hays?

  Right. Tiger did?

• 27:09John Coogan?

  Tiger?

• 27:11Jordi Hays?

  That was, that was her nickname.

• 27:14John Coogan?

  Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Tiger. And so I don't know. It's it's an open question. Sonny has not done any interviews, but we got to hear his side of the case. But when when I look at like college dropout, first time entrepreneur, I see that it's very easy for an investor or more senior person to go to the And say, hey, look, it's like, like actually Steve Jobs faked it till he made it. And it's okay to push the envelope a little bit.

• 27:46Jordi Hays?

  But the the end product for Theranos is not the device which they made. It is the results.

• 27:54John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 27:55Jordi Hays?

  The the Tiger thing, I'll read out this quote quickly because this was one of the most iconic exchanges that that, you know, emerged during the legal process. This was a text message between Holmes and Sunny Balwani. It said, Holmes, or she's saying this, you are, you are the breeze in the desert for me, my water and ocean meant to be only together, Tiger. And Balwani replies, okay.

• 28:25Jordi Hays?

  So he was, he was clearly locked in, at least in that moment.

• 28:29John Coogan?

  But she was actually acquitted of fraud related to charges of the patient results. But she was convicted of fraud, financial fraud. And so this came down more to her representation, her representation of the progress the company was making to investors. Her prison sentence was postponed because of the pregnancy. And although the start of her prison sentence was postponed, Holmes says she was still wasn't mentally prepared to serve time as a mother with two babies. She gave birth to her first child, William, just weeks after her, before her fraud trial began.

• 29:05John Coogan?

  Evans, whom she met at a rooftop charity event in October of 2017 during the Theranos scandal, presented a silver snake ring bought at a Taylor Swift Reputation Tour concert. When he proposed to her a year later, together, they decided to start a family despite the legal jeopardy that Holmes was soon to face. I asked him 20 times if he wanted to spend his life with me. She recalls, there were a million reasons why not. Although Evans is an heir to the Evans Hotel Group, his family has not contributed to Holmes' legal defense.

• 29:37Jordi Hays?

  Yeah. So so the the Evans family is based in Southern California in the San Diego area and is very, very, very widely, you know, respected and and very, you know, big part of the community down there. So I think that the entire debacle was was very, you know, stressful in many ways, given, given.

• 30:00Jordi Hays?

  The son's relationship with with Elizabeth, which clearly they they didn't, you know, fully support if they weren't, you know, putting up resources to to help with the process.

• 30:10John Coogan?

  Yeah, the timeline here is just crazy. I mean, 2017 is where the scandal goes down. I remember this breaking. John Kerry Rue at the Wall Street Journal broke the story and it looked bad immediately. I actually remember when I got to Silicon Valley, my co-founder, David, was a biotech PhD, Caltech and Harvard guy. And and I was like, wait, like, why aren't we using any of your skills? Like, we I can develop software. We're in, you know, Y Combi or loosely, like, we're in the Silicon Valley area. We should do like a blood testing company because you know about like blood testing. And then we looked it up and we're like, oh, there's already this company that's like ripping. Like, we shouldn't compete with them. Isn't that funny?

• 30:49Jordi Hays?

  Oh, wow.

• 30:50John Coogan?

  I was like, yeah, we should do some biotech thing because like you have a great pedigree here. We're really not using you. You know, like, you're learning, you're learning all this business stuff from scratch.

• 30:58Jordi Hays?

  I always forget that David is just the ultimate PhD Chad.

• 31:02John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 31:03Jordi Hays?

  Just like, you know, he's just chatting out, but, you know, in a more traditional manner.

• 31:08John Coogan?

  But but but he was like, yeah, it's like impossible. Like, there's no opportunity there. Like, it's not, it's not gonna happen. And I was like, oh, interesting. Like, you know, it seems like they're doing well. Like, they're raising money. And he's like, doesn't matter. Like, it's the science isn't real. He clocked it.

• 31:21Jordi Hays?

  And that's why, that's why usually, you know, even Sequoia wrote a big check into FTX, right? Because you could use, like, yeah, there were questions about Sam, the idea of, you know, if you wouldn't want Brian Armstrong owning Coinbase and like actively running a billion dollar hedge fund and trading against the users constantly. Like, there's some obvious sort of ethical reasons why, you know, maybe SSB, you know, shouldn't have been doing that, you know, even prior to the other issues that happened. But but at least in the FTX situation, there were happy FTX users. There were, you know, you could, you could, you know, at least demo the product and say, okay, this is like, this

• 32:06Jordi Hays?

  is a real thing. And so that, in some, in some ways, I'm sure contributed to a bunch of the best Silicon Valley investors and crypto investors piling in capital into that company. But that just didn't happen. Like, the funny thing is, like, Rupert Murdoch is like, Very influential, connected, huge access to resources. But if he is seeing a biotech deal, it's very bearish, right? And he, at the time, should have been asking himself, why did the entire West Coast and fund managers representing billions of dollars of capital, you know, pass on this company? Like, why am I getting the opportunity? But I'm sure it was his ego being like, yeah, of course I would invest in the next, you know, the apple of healthcare, right? It just makes sense.

• 32:51John Coogan?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's, it's also like, I mean, even the tier one Silicon Valley tech VCs are not the go to shops for biotech growth fundraising. Like, are you familiar with the flagship pioneering model? I mean, they've just had like banger after banger. Basically, they, they have almost like an incubation model. So typically, it's like some PhD professor level, like 20 years of research in a particular molecule or particular technique, CRISPR, or some sort of really fundamental analysis that's like almost Nobel Prize level. And then they take that person and they immediately pair them with like world-class CEO MBA type.

• 33:35John Coogan?

  And then they put a ton of funding behind it. They IPO the company. Moderna went through this with Stephane Bencel. It was a spin out and I think Flagship did the deal and, and took that company. They were actually called the next Theranos because they were very secretive. And the CEO was saying that they're going to cure cancer and create like a vaccine for cancer, was giving TED Talks and everyone was like, what's going on here? This company hasn't produced anything. And then the COVID vaccines happened, which are obviously controversial, but the stock ripped and it was like a fantastic investment for Flagship. And they did very well. It's funny that I don't know what, how prison works these days, but then if you go to the, the second slide here, there's a photo of Elizabeth Holmes,

• 34:19John Coogan?

  her partner, Billy Evans, and their two children on a beach in La Jolla. And I didn't know you could just go out and do photo shoots on the beach. Like, it's pretty, pretty nice that you get to get out and.

• 34:33Jordi Hays?

  So that was for the New York Times. So that had to have been during the.

• 34:37John Coogan?

  Oh, like right before she went in?

• 34:39Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 34:40John Coogan?

  That must be.

• 34:40Jordi Hays?

  They don't, they don't let, they don't let prisoners.

• 34:43John Coogan?

  Okay, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That makes sense. And so, uh, yeah.

• 34:46Jordi Hays?

  Can you imagine that exchange? She's talking with, you know, whoever.

• 34:49John Coogan?

  I don't know how it works, honestly.

• 34:51Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, well, like, you don't understand. It's People Magazine.

• 34:54John Coogan?

  It's People Magazine.

• 34:55Jordi Hays?

  You ever gotten an opportunity to, for a profile in People Magazine? You gotta let me out.

• 35:00John Coogan?

  Yeah. Uh, and so the People Magazine does a good job of telling the, the condition that she's in. While home shivers from the frigid air conditioning and picks the nuts out of a bag of trail mix. She says she has settled into the dormitory style prisons routine. Each morning she wakes up just after 5 a.m. on the grind, Jaco Willink style, uh, eats fruit for breakfast and then does a 40 minute daily workout, lifting weights, rowing and running on a track. She's grinding.

• 35:27Jordi Hays?

  Grinding.

• 35:27John Coogan?

  I like it. Get back in the, uh, by 8 a.m. She's at the education building earning 31 cents an hour as a reentry clerk, helping women slated for release write resumes and prepare, uh, to apply for tax credits and other government benefits. I bet she's pretty good at that. Um, she also teaches French classes. Pretty.

• 35:44Jordi Hays?

  Can you imagine if she spent a decade just, just deep into science, James Cameron style?

• 35:51John Coogan?

  I 100% agree and I want that to happen. Like if she's the real deal, publish some research, publish some blog posts, even just give us, you know, your take on the latest science. Like break down CRISPR, like study this stuff and show us that you're the real deal and that you actually understand the science and you'll win me over. But as long as you're, you know, just talking out the personal side, it's like, it's a lot harder to take you seriously as, hey, yes, you were, you were really, uh, a student of the, of the craft that you were building in and you just got over your skis. It's like, did you ever understand the science? Because if you did, you should double down on that and come out with a banger thesis based on a ton of research. Find something that's undiscovered in, in the scientific research

• 36:35John Coogan?

  and, uh, drop a bomb on us, Elizabeth. I'm, I'm ready. I'm, I'm, I'm listening. So many of these women don't have anyone and once they're in here, they're forgotten. Between roll calls five times a day, Holmes also works as a law clerk, helping women secure compassionate release for their court cases. Holmes says she was raped at a college fraternity party and testified at her Theranos trial that she had been sexually abused and manipulated by her co-defendant, Balwani. This is the, this is the, the Svengali defense that he was manipulating her and you can kind of see that in the text messages, like it is a sympathetic case. She claimed he controlled everything from the food she ate to her daily schedule and kept her away from her family.

• 37:18John Coogan?

  Kind of a, I don't know, like some cult situation. I wish that I left, I wish I had seen the abuse or I understood it and why I didn't and I'm finding peace with all that. If I can break, it can break a lot of people and I was able to rise through it as best I can. Balwani's lawyer did not respond for a request for comment. Once a week, Holmes attends cognitive and behavioral therapy for PTSD. She also counsels inmates who are survivors and it helps her find meaning in her incarceration. Human beings are not made to be cells. It goes so far beyond understanding. I'm trying really hard not to tear up right now. I'm trying to grow as every moment matters and if one person's life can be touched, trying to help them in a crisis, it matters.

• 38:03John Coogan?

  She's on a largely vegan diet, although she has added salmon and tuna after becoming anemic in her first year in prison. Yeah, be rough to be in, she's reading a lot. She read Harry Potter, Rick Rubin's The Creative Act and Cherry Huber's.

• 38:18Jordi Hays?

  Is it somewhat surprising that, that they have salmon in a prison like this?

• 38:23John Coogan?

  Why? I don't know. That doesn't seem that crazy.

• 38:26Jordi Hays?

  I don't know.

• 38:27John Coogan?

  You gotta get protein from somewhere.

• 38:28Jordi Hays?

  Certainly not, certainly not the least expensive, you know, fish that you can get.

• 38:34John Coogan?

  Yeah, I don't know.

• 38:35Jordi Hays?

  But.

• 38:36John Coogan?

  Oh, well. Well, she's scheduled for release in April 3rd, 2032. She'll be on the show April 4th, hopefully. We'd love to interview her and see what she's cooking up in the biotech world next. Maybe someone will acquire the Theranos IP.

• 38:53Jordi Hays?

  I mean.

• 38:54John Coogan?

  What's your last take before we close out?

• 38:57Jordi Hays?

  I'm very confident that we could do a, we could do a Holmes prison interview episode. If it ever made sense, but we'd like to see, we'd like to see the research first. We'd like to look at, you know, the data. We'd like to see, I think it's awesome that she's trying to help, you know, help people from within the walls. But we want to see the science.

• 39:21John Coogan?

  Yeah. I want to put her in the ring with a couple biotech PhDs, quiz her on a bunch of stuff. Pop quiz, how does CRISPR work? You know, see if she ever cared. If she gives some good answers, I'm willing to.

• 39:35Jordi Hays?

  She's saying that.

• 39:36John Coogan?

  Willing to forgive.

• 39:37Jordi Hays?

  She's saying that she's gonna, when she gets out, she's gonna fight for reform of the criminal justice system. She recently drafted an American Freedom Act bill, a seven-page handwritten document to bolster the presumption of innocence and change criminal procedure. This will be my life's work, says Holmes. So it sounds like she's gonna abandon biotech and focus on this. And maybe, you know, maybe she can have a positive, you know, real positive impact there. So again, everybody, everybody's doing their best. Sometimes their best is terrible, but you know, hopefully, hopefully she can hit a good trajectory.

• 40:19John Coogan?

  It is a fascinating story, though. It's captivating. I see why they made a show out of it. I see why they're making movies out of it. It is wild. Well, let's move on to some good news. Hadrian has announced Atlas. Zane, a good friend of the show, says, I've said it before and I'll say it again, Domino's Pizza tracker, but for manufactured parts. Probably why the difference in pay. And he shows the Domino's Pizza tracker. He wants to know if he's manufacturing a part, when is he going to receive it? Where is it in the manufacturing pipeline? Hadrian delivered, if you can track a $15 pizza in real time, why not your $15,000 machined part? We fixed that. And so if you're a Hadrian customer, now you have access to Atlas.

• 41:03John Coogan?

  You can track all the parts that you're, that they're making for you and see where they are in the pipeline. We're good friends with Chris and Hadrian and wish him the best with this project. You got any takes, Jordy?

• 41:17Jordi Hays?

  I mean, it's very cool. There's just so much. If you've ever, you know, got anything manufactured anywhere, it's just a lot of email and PDFs and, you know, calling, calling people up and saying, where's, where is this thing? You know, and so it makes a ton of sense. It's, it's cool that Hadrian, that this wasn't actually the problem they were trying to solve. Like they're trying to solve sort of the more base level. Like, let's just make these things faster, better, cheaper here in the US. But it's great that now that they've sort of established that they can start layering on these features that are going to make it, you know, world where why would I

• 41:58Jordi Hays?

  order, you know, this part with somebody else when, you know, I can get it and have like linear visibility into how it's getting made, the timeline and things like that. So very cool to see. And this is like going into the more of this like vertical, like these sort of verticalized businesses that are doing the, the production and they're not saying, oh, we're just going to use this random, you know, order management SaaS app that we bolt on, or we're going to use Salesforce. We're going to actually own the entire stack from the actual part being manufactured to the delivery to the end, and purchaser. So, yeah, very cool to see. And Chris has just been,

• 42:38Jordi Hays?

  Chris has just been such a legend in his support for the show. I've never met him personally, but he's absolutely exemplifies brother behavior. So I love to see Hadrian win.

• 42:49John Coogan?

  Yeah, I saw a screenshot from a YouTuber who is one of those like builder DIY hacker types that builds like physical, like kind of gadgets. Like, oh, I built a robot to, you know, make pizza or whatever. It's just like fun little YouTube projects for the kind of mechanical engineering folks. And she tried to get a part made. She contacted five manufacturers in China, five manufacturers in America, five manufacturers in Europe. No one in Europe even responded. There were like three quotes that came back from America and they were all too expensive and too slow. And every single person in China gave them a super low, gave her a super

• 43:31John Coogan?

  low quote in two seconds. And it was just kind of like another anecdote of how important what Hadrian is doing is to America. And the fact that we really have fallen behind on like the machine shops. If you don't have A standing relationship with a guy who just knows how to make that part and they might be retiring. You're gonna have a rough go, but let's stay on.

• 43:52Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, there's something that's something that, you know, we, we, we throw a little bit of shade at the CCP from time to time. But one, you know, looking at the actual culture on the ground in China, this idea around response rate matters, timeline matters, speed. Their generalized, you know, sort of startup and just like business culture over there is just so friendly to customers in that. Let's get this to you as, as cheap as possible, as fast as possible. And, you know, they make really high quality stuff, right? The whole narrative that Chinese products are, are, are low quality is just no longer the case.

• 44:31John Coogan?

  Yeah, yeah, it's all, it's all over the place. I mean, Timu, obviously the lowest quality product possible. Did, did I tell you we got duped by Timu? Right after we did the deep dive, they must've been listening because I ordered a, a wireless headset that I'm wearing right now on Amazon. And it arrived and it's a Sennheiser product. It said Sennheiser. I bought it, we get it, we try and set it up and we're like, this isn't working. It doesn't have the right buttons. It doesn't even say Sennheiser on it. What had happened is someone, I guess the scam is they buy the product, they swap out, swap in like a Timu clone. And then they return it and then it goes back into the Amazon inventory system.

• 45:15John Coogan?

  And then we receive it and we're like, this doesn't work. And so I wound up just buying it on B and H and it came a couple of days.

• 45:20Jordi Hays?

  That's crazy.

• 45:21John Coogan?

  But very rough out there.

• 45:23Jordi Hays?

  Any, anytime I return something, you know, an Amazon purchase, you can like drop them off at a Whole Foods or whatever.

• 45:29John Coogan?

  Yep, yep.

• 45:30Jordi Hays?

  I'm always shocked at the lack of, you know, emphasis from the team on just saying, you know, I'm. Always returning like exactly what I ordered, but there, you know, I could have just put like a horse head in the box and they would have accepted it. So it's customer friendly, which is cool, but uh, yeah, it can definitely be abused.

• 45:49John Coogan?

  Uh, well, let's go to Ted Feldman. He has a startup idea, the port of El Segundo, a fully automated container port to compete with inefficient ports of LA and Long Beach. He's raising a billion, a 10 billion post. Let's give him a little size gong for that. Uh, why Aiden Guo says, why isn't this feasible realistically? Ted says, I don't know, but I'm interested in finding out. I would be interested in finding out. Yeah. I mean, if you've been to Dockweiler, the beach right there, it's just in front of this sewage treatment plant. And so it's not like if you built a port there, you would be destroying the value of homes that have beautiful views, like the sewage treatment plant or the, it's a water treatment plant, doesn't really care probably about that. So I would love to see

• 46:32John Coogan?

  a port built there. I think that's an awesome idea, Ted.

• 46:35Jordi Hays?

  Yeah. So one of the pushback that, some of the pushback that you're going to get is the entire surfing community in El Segundo will come out in full force to make sure it doesn't happen. And then, you know, obviously, you know, environmental stuff, but this actually happened before. They added a Dana White, uh, not Dana White, Dana Point, um, always UFC, always on the mind. Uh, Dana Point used to have the best surf break in Southern California. It was this iconic break and they put a port in Dana Point and it just went, was gone completely. And so, um, you can watch crazy documentaries on, on the whole history of that. Uh, but surfers

• 47:16Jordi Hays?

  are very triggered anytime you start doing sort of like actual infrastructure development near surf spots. And, and I grew up actually surfing, uh, in El Segundo at El Porto, which is just south of, of, um, Dockweiler.

• 47:30John Coogan?

  Why not do more geoengineering? Let's, let's put a port in that takes a break away and then let's dig out a massive trench that creates a Nazare like 100 foot wave right off of Santa Monica.

• 47:44Jordi Hays?

  You can actually create waves by sinking boats strategically. And so maybe you could do a trade where, hey, you can build the port, but you have to

• 47:53John Coogan?

  Sink some massive cruise, an aircraft carrier that just completely changes the surf break and just turns it into the best surf spot in the world. I love that.

• 48:02Jordi Hays?

  In, in high school, I worked at a surf shop and we were actually trying to, at one point, explore like intentionally sinking a boat like at this one place that was, got really good swell, had the right direction.

• 48:15John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 48:17Jordi Hays?

  But just didn't have the sand bakes. And so we like seriously looked into it and the economics of like, okay, we get, you know, 50 of our buddies to like chip in for an old boat and then like take it out there and sink it.

• 48:28John Coogan?

  Yeah. I mean, a lot of these things have like second order consequences that you need to be real careful about. Like in Dubai, when they built those islands, I think there was a lot of silt and it basically kicked up a ton of sand and killed like everything in the region, basically. And it kind of ruined scuba diving for a little bit, maybe. But at the same time, in Truck Lagoon in Palau, dur, in Micronesia during World War II, the Japanese had, are you familiar with this?

• 48:56Jordi Hays?

  When you said Truck Lagoon in Palau, I was just like, okay, are you just completely making stuff up?

• 49:02John Coogan?

  No, no, no. This is a real story. So, so the Japanese had a whole fleet of fighter aircraft, zeros that were stationed on this island, towards the end of World War II and the war in the Pacific. And they had intel that the Americans were going to come and bomb the landing strip and blow up all the planes because the American bombers had detected that these planes were vulnerable. And so the team, like the, the Japanese army or the air force, didn't want to lose all the planes. They said, hey, if we lose a landing strip, we can repave that potentially, but we don't want to lose all these planes and have to re-manufacture them. So what they did was they took all the planes and they sunk them to the bottom of the shallow lagoon.

• 49:45John Coogan?

  And they were like, they'll get all wet for a day or two. The bombs will come, will repave, and then we'll be able to just crane the, uh, we'll crane the, the planes out, dry them out, and then we'll need to clean them and stuff and get all the water out of the engine, oil change, but then they'll be good to go and we'll be able to go on the counterattack, right? But the war ended. And so those planes were never like retrieved, but it's created this incredible artificial reef that has created a ton of fish life, and it's one of the best scuba diving spots in the entire world.

• 50:18Jordi Hays?

  Crazy.

• 50:19John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 50:19Jordi Hays?

  I would not, I would not think that-

• 50:21John Coogan?

  The second order of effects of this mistake actually were pretty good. I mean, I'm sure there were some environmental considerations, like there's probably some oil in the water for a little bit, but now it's just fantastic for basically everyone. The scuba divers enjoy it, the fish enjoy it, everyone's good.

• 50:34Jordi Hays?

  I would not think that you could, I mean, I don't think you could drop an F-35 in, in, in saltwater for, for more than, you know, 10 minutes without just completely destroying it at this point.

• 50:46John Coogan?

  I mean, the electronics are a different factor now. Uh, back then, very analog, and so you dry it out and you're pretty much good as long as the oil lines are good and everything's, the pistons are cleaned out and stuff. It's crazy that you could do this, but yeah.

• 50:59Jordi Hays?

  The first, the first flight back in a, in a plane that had been submerged in saltwater for, you know, 48 hours would have been a little hectic, but.

• 51:07John Coogan?

  Yeah. A lot of those guys were willing to put it all on the line anyway, so you know, well, it's a little more risky.

• 51:13Jordi Hays?

  Kamikaze.

• 51:14John Coogan?

  Anyway, let's move on to Anarchy, fan of the show. Anarchy says, uh, is, uh, quote tweeting, "Six levels deep here. We got consequence. Uh, 15 out of 23 monkeys implanted with Elon Musk's Neuralink brain chips have reportedly died." Uh, Broly says, "Why must I, a STEM major, take an ethics class?" Terminally online leftist says, "Evergreen." And Anarchy closes it out by saying, "That's why we test on monkeys, LMAO." Uh, update. It has been brought to my attention that the monkeys were already terminally diagnosed. So perhaps eight monkeys had their lives extended. And this has been one of those narratives that's been going around with, with, uh, with Neuralink for a long time.

• 51:56John Coogan?

  And the Neuralink team actually is, goes way, way above what most research clinics do in terms of like monkey safety. Because they know that they're going to be such an attack vector. But it's just such an emotional story that it goes viral like every week, basically like, oh, they're abusing monkeys. But fortunately, the monkeys live very good lives at, over at Neuralink and they, uh, and they get to use MacBooks, which is crazy.

• 52:22Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 52:23John Coogan?

  I was talking to one of the Neuralink guys and he was just like, it's the best place to work in the world. Because you walk in and there's just a monkey on the computer. And I was like, yeah, that sounds amazing.

• 52:33Jordi Hays?

  We should, we should really try to get one of them on the show, uh, at some point.

• 52:38John Coogan?

  Play pong against them. See, see who can win.

• 52:40Jordi Hays?

  They're probably, they're probably cracked it.

• 52:42John Coogan?

  I mean, we can get Nathan on the show. I, I've texted with him before. He's a good dude. He's the first Neuralink patient, P1.

• 52:50John Coogan?

  Paraplegic, quadriplegic. I'm not exactly sure the term, but, uh, has been re-gifted this ability to use the computer. And can tweet and play Civilization and, uh, play games. And it's a, it's truly like a magical, wonderful, uh, technology. And I'm, I'm very excited for it. And, uh, obviously it's going to be slow. Obviously there's going to be a lot of things to do. I mean, the Neuralink team, when I've talked to them, they said like, yeah, it's going to be like 50 years maybe until this is in like, you know, an average person who's healthy. But, uh, in terms of, in terms of seeing it as a true medical device for helping people that have a serious, serious disability. The impact's already happening right now. And, uh, I'm, I'm, I'm, it just makes me, it just feels incredibly futuristic, incredibly positive.

• 53:34John Coogan?

  And something that, uh, needs to be rolled out everywhere. Well, let's go to some other amazing news. America is back on top of

• 53:44Jordi Hays?

  Let's go.

• 53:45John Coogan?

  lap records at five different, uh, courses. The Chevrolet ZR1, uh, unleashed.

• 53:55John Coogan?

  Was unleashed on five of America's best tracks, Road America, Road Atlanta, VIR's full course and grand course and Watkins Glen with GM employees and engineers behind the wheel. I love this. They don't get test drivers. They get GM employees. The guy who broke the speed record.

• 54:11Jordi Hays?

  I gotta, I gotta potentially put it.

• 54:13John Coogan?

  Truth is on this.

• 54:14Jordi Hays?

  They can employ.

• 54:15John Coogan?

  Yeah, of course, of course. But, but the guy who did the speed record in this car. So if you don't know, Chevrolet, the, the, the Corvette has been a historical American front engine muscle car for generations at this point, decades. They're now on the, the Z, the, sorry, the C8, the C8 transition from a front engine to a mid-engine or rear engine, I think mid-engine sports car. So it drives more like an Italian Ferrari or Lamborghini at this point. And then they have a number of packages and upgrades and the ZR1, you can think of it as like the GT3 RS, like almost the track focused, but

• 54:58John Coogan?

  still road legal version of the Corvette C8. And so the C8, they really went all out on this. They gave it over a thousand horsepower. And typically, for a long time, American cars, just car, just car makers in general have kind of given up on the, on the high speed records. They just don't even go after them anymore because Bugatti set the record so high at like 250 miles an hour. There was no real point, but Corvette wanted to, and the team over at Chevrolet wanted to break something. So they made the fastest American production car. I think this ZR1 goes something like 223 miles an hour. And that test, you have to drive straight on a, on a track and then you have to drive the opposite way. So

• 55:42John Coogan?

  the wind is adjusted for, and the guy who did it was like a vice president at the company. So yeah, I'm sure he's like a track driver. He's like very experienced, but he does have a daytime job at Chevrolet and it's very cool to see them do this. Some of the lap records are incredible and fantastic and they made a whole little documentary about it. So congratulations to the Corvette team and the Chevrolet team. Jordy, what's your take on the, on the Chevy ZR1?

• 56:06Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, I think, so I think we need to put this in context.

• 56:09John Coogan?

  Please.

• 56:10Jordi Hays?

  They were basically racing against times set by the GT3 RS and the GT2 RS and maybe a GT4 RS. But I know for sure the GT3 and the GT2. So. These are tracks that Porsche has historically been absolutely dominant on. And so to come out and put up these times is just incredible. I've never been a, never been an American muscle car guy. You, you have a more meaningful appreciation for them.

• 56:45Jordi Hays?

  But, uh, but I, but I, I'm very excited that to see an American, you know, manufacturer competitive here and putting this emphasis on a car that will basically be in the supercar category. It's, it's, it's hard to call a, um, you know, one of, yeah, a ZR1 a, uh, a supercar for me, but it certainly is when you're putting up numbers like this. But at the same time.

• 57:09John Coogan?

  200K and yeah, I mean, America has a long history with the muscle car, but I think America's kind of locked that up in the sense that you have Mustang, GT, GT350R, the GT500. You also have the Dodge Demon, which is like the ultimate muscle car. And then even a Tesla Model S Plaid, it's not a track focused car, but it goes zero to 60 in two seconds. So it's again, kind of an American muscle car. I love that Chevy was like, hey, let's go a different direction and try and get into the more rear engine sports car, hypercar, supercar market and reposition this classic muscle car. Because there's enough exposure in the American market. And so I, I think it's really cool. I think it looks fantastic.

• 57:51Jordi Hays?

  The other thing is, is the ZR1 is basically less than half the cost of the cars that it's racing against. And so you're making this ridiculous performance accessible, uh, which is awesome.

• 58:05John Coogan?

  Uh, yeah, I love it.

• 58:07Jordi Hays?

  A great, great daily, great commuter car, uh, wherever you are in the world.

• 58:12John Coogan?

  Yeah. It's, uh, I mean, if you're, if you're an American dynamism investor, you're trying to tell a story about revitalizing American manufacturing. You don't want to get caught in some Italian or British or German.

• 58:23Jordi Hays?

  Is this American made? Some of their stuff is Mexico, right?

• 58:27John Coogan?

  I don't know, but it's an American company. I, I think this, I think this is probably made in America.

• 58:34Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 58:35John Coogan?

  At least modified in America. Let's move on to.

• 58:40Jordi Hays?

  You're, you're right. It's, it's made in Kentucky.

• 58:43John Coogan?

  Made in Kentucky. Let's go.

• 58:45Jordi Hays?

  Couldn't be more American than Kentucky.

• 58:46John Coogan?

  I mean, the perfect three car garage right now, I think is probably new Tesla Model Y for the daily. It's got the self-driving, throw the kids in the back, no problem. Then you get one of these is your sports car. Take this out. Then you get the, the land yacht, the Cadillac Escalade.

• 59:02Jordi Hays?

  There you go.

• 59:03John Coogan?

  Pretty good then. You got your, you got your weekend car. You're, you know, you're going to the mountains. You need a big land yacht. Then you got your little daily self-driving car.

• 59:12Jordi Hays?

  And that's. Yeah. So you do, you, you build out your American stack and I'll stick with my German stack.

• 59:17John Coogan?

  Yeah. Yeah. And, uh, yeah, you'll be at the dealership getting, uh, service every two weeks. And, uh, I'll be driving my Escalade in the apocalypse.

• 59:27John Coogan?

  Because we got reliability on our side in, in America, you know? You, you, you get your Ford GT. You got a problem with that? You take it down to the Ford dealership, they swap it out. Oh, this, uh, your mirror broke? Yeah, that'll be $25.

• 59:42John Coogan?

  Oh, your, your rearview mirror?

• 59:43Jordi Hays?

  Ferrari.

• 59:44John Coogan?

  Yeah. It's the same one.

• 59:46John Coogan?

  Yeah. It's the same one that's in the, the Corolla.

• 59:48Jordi Hays?

  We gotta, we gotta do, do more on Ferrari. They're, they're spiraling right now.

• 59:53John Coogan?

  There's, there's a post in here. We'll get to it in the timeline.

• 59:56Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 59:56John Coogan?

  Uh, but let's move on to token maxing from Nikunj Kathari. I believe he just departed his, uh, his venture firm. He says, token maxing, too many founders and investors are obsessing over margins at the earliest stages. Instead of focusing on building the best product with series A getting harder. I get it. Everyone wants to show good margins, but right now use as many tokens as needed to give customers confidence in your product. The cost curve on these models is dropping so fast that margins will improve automatically. What won't improve? Your chances when a second mover builds on better frontier models from day one. You can optimize your models, architecture and prompts later. Right now, just really nail the experience and reliability. So he's not talking about crypto tokens.

• 1:00:39John Coogan?

  He's talking about AI tokens and he's saying, you know, use the best model. Spit out a ton of reasoning tokens. Doesn't matter. Your margins don't matter right now. Get product market fit, get lock in, get established, let your brand be known as the company that delivers on their AI product as opposed to a company that, you know, has sub, subpar results.

• 1:01:03Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, right now, every single sort of enterprise and consumer category in anything Gen AI related is deeply competitive, right? It doesn't matter what you're coming up with. You either already have five well-funded competitors or you are about to, basically. And so I think this is good advice. It certainly puts companies in a, you know, sort of very risk on position where you're saying, hey, we just raised this, you know, seed round and we're basically, if we want to scale quickly, we're gonna have to spend it in the next, you know, 12 months, which is typically like a much tighter timeline than people want to see, right? You want to be positioned so that it's never great if you're having to raise money, you

• 1:01:47Jordi Hays?

  know, nine to seven months before you're out of cash because it just puts this pressure on. And then you're getting to the point where even if you get a term sheet at that term sheet stage where people want to do the deal, you're still staring down the barrel of a gun being like, we have, you know, weeks, basically, to actually get this done and closed and all that stuff can drag on. So.

• 1:02:09John Coogan?

  I'm wondering if companies are going to deal with like degrading performance? Like, you know how there was those times when it was like, oh, like Claude feels lazy today or like ChatGPT got stupider somehow? And I wonder if there's a world where you, you install some product and you're like, this is magical. It's completely doing all my like AI SDRs or it's, it's filtering my email and summarizing everything perfectly. And then, once you're installed as a client, they're like degrading you to a lower, lower inference cost. And you're like, wait a minute, like that email that that AI SDR sent was terrible. And they're like, well, yeah, like we wanted to get squeeze more margin out of you.

• 1:02:44Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:45John Coogan?

  And so there needs to be like, almost like an audit on the AI tools that you're using to make sure that.

• 1:02:49Jordi Hays?

  Don't give me the dumb, don't give me the dumb tokens.

• 1:02:52John Coogan?

  Yeah. And, and, and don't, don't downgrade me to the dumb tokens once you have me locked in a contract. If I'm in for a year, I want the, I want the, the, the O3 high max capacity on every single inference.

• 1:03:04Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, the, uh, the, the, the positive thing here and, and he calls this out is that it's not like everybody's predicting that the token cost is going to drop it that already has so substantially.

• 1:03:17John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:17Jordi Hays?

  DeepSeek is just another example of that where, you know, when DeepSeek launched, people are like, think about all the stuff you can do when, when inference is basically free, right?

• 1:03:26John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:26Jordi Hays?

  Um, and so it's a good bet to take right now because again, if you, you know, focus on margins now, the product quality is lower, you're going to get smoked by the switching cost, uh, right now is fairly low for a lot of these tools and people have an extreme willingness to try new tools. So your competitor comes out with the same, you know, core product and, uh, you're going to get smoked.

• 1:03:49John Coogan?

  So let's move on to Andrew Reid. He says, "Ashim from Greylock has all of his realized losses from 20 years of investing tattooed on his arm. That's sick."

• 1:04:00Jordi Hays?

  I need to see a picture of this. How, how crazy would it be if it, it's, uh, I'm imagining it's like four companies, but that'd be hilarious if it was just like his entire.

• 1:04:11John Coogan?

  He's just got a massive sleeve because he's been ripping seed checks, uh, you know, a hundred checks, a hundred checks a year or something. Uh, I, I, I thought this might be a joke as in he's been a later stage investor. He's never, he's never realized the loss maybe. And so he actually has no tattoos and Andrew's just making a joke about it, but I don't know.

• 1:04:30Jordi Hays?

  Uh, yeah. So this is just a very low tan banger. Uh, Eric, Eric, uh, Reiner says, "Nice niche audience, but I like it." And then the other guy says, or he says, "No ink was used in this process." So it sounds like he has no, no real, uh, by his losses, uh, to date.

• 1:04:47John Coogan?

  Yeah. I, I think that's possible, although how can you possibly be an investor for 20 years and never realize loss? You have to be later stage, right?

• 1:04:57John Coogan?

  Or maybe you just sell secondary like savage constantly.

• 1:04:59Jordi Hays?

  I mean, it's something like, look, look at, look at Sequoia's statistics. I think.

• 1:05:03John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:04Jordi Hays?

  I don't think they, I think like 1% of the companies they've backed have not like resulted in a some sort of exit.

• 1:05:12John Coogan?

  Yeah, but there's still like, like it also like, what's the difference in realized loss here? Cause a zero is different than a realized loss. Like it would be easy to be like, well, yeah, we, we, we sold this company. We got stock in this other company and then that went down. And so we realized like a 10% loss by the time we, you know.

• 1:05:30Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, you can get, you know, if you're acquired by another private company and it's majority stock, then.

• 1:05:35John Coogan?

  You could wind up taking a bath.

• 1:05:37Jordi Hays?

  You could make the case that we haven't realized this loss. Cause if this other company does well, we're going to make it all back. Right?

• 1:05:44John Coogan?

  Yeah. Also, I mean, anything below the, the, the benchmark for the market, in my opinion, is a loss, you know? If you're not beating the average, you need to tattoo that on your body. I, I, don't get me, oh yeah, this company returned 1.5X. You're getting a tattoo for that. That's not a 5Xer. That's not a 10 bagger. Oh yeah, we doubled, we doubled. Oh yeah. Well, we're not in the game of doubling here.

• 1:06:08Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:09John Coogan?

  Get the tattoo.

• 1:06:09Jordi Hays?

  Have higher standards.

• 1:06:11John Coogan?

  Yeah, higher standards. Uh, well, speaking of the highest standards in the game, perplexity is working to sponsor an F1 team, but they got blocked by Oracle. Uh, Kylie Robinson writes, scoop. So you're hearing it here first. Uh, perplexity has been in negotiations to sign a sponsorship deal with Red Bull Racing, worth $5 million a year, but after both parties had agreed to the terms, the deal was blocked by Oracle, the team's biggest sponsor, which is very interesting. Two issues that are at the heart of the conflict. Oracle has made a bid to purchase TikTok and perplexity is a rival bidder. Oracle is also a backer of Stargate, the $500 billion project to build data centers for OpenAI, which competes with perplexity.

• 1:06:56John Coogan?

  It doesn't seem like Oracle and perplexity are indirect competition, but I understand how they might want to, uh, yeah, uh, uh, flex their muscle.

• 1:07:04Jordi Hays?

  No, no, this is.

• 1:07:05John Coogan?

  Be a little, be a little sharp elbowed. What do you, what's your take?

• 1:07:09Jordi Hays?

  I mean, when I.

• 1:07:12Jordi Hays?

  When I read into this, you know, when I saw this headline, great scoop, great scoop, by the way, great scoop, you know, we love it. We love it. Tech adjacent F1 story. I think this is more, you know, Oracle, you know, my OpenAI went from being, you know, betting on the Microsoft relationship and they still have a really deep relationship. Microsoft obviously owns a large amount of the company. I think this is more about OpenAI and perplexity being directly competitive right now that, you know, OpenAI is basically saying people are using OpenAI as like,

• 1:07:49Jordi Hays?

  like perplexity is positioned as an answer engine.

• 1:07:52John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 1:07:52Jordi Hays?

  ChatGPT also acts as an answer engine, but they just have a different knowledge cutoff. Perplexity's knowledge cutoff is like, you know, more real time effectively. You can say like, you can ask it about what's going on, you know, like.

• 1:08:04John Coogan?

  And many of the, many of the chat GPT models have that little search button that you can turn on and then it will search the internet actively and give you kind of up to date answers. But it's not, the product isn't designed that way.

• 1:08:16Jordi Hays?

  Yeah. So I just think this is like Sam, like the other, the other factor here is Sam, the perplexity CEO worked, worked at, worked at OpenAI. And yeah, early, early OpenAI employee chat. Feel free to fact check me on that, but I'm pretty confident. And he clearly hates Sam. And, and so basically once a day, he's posting some, some sort of like shade towards Sam and OpenAI. Or, you know, sharing something about the, the OpenAI whistleblower, you know, he's sort of like, they clearly have beef and this is not that, I'm sure perplexities deal with,

• 1:09:01Jordi Hays?

  Red Bull, Oracle Racing would have been a relatively small logo, right? Like, and, and so I have to imagine this is like. Could it easily have been Larry Ellison asking Sam, hey, do you mind if we were, you know, like, hey, they want perplexity wants to sponsor Red Bull, Oracle Racing, and, you know, Sam's just like, absolutely not, you know?

• 1:09:28John Coogan?

  Yeah, yeah, totally possible.

• 1:09:30Jordi Hays?

  The other thing here, too, to be clear, like perplexity integrated DeepSeek into the product, into their product as well.

• 1:09:37John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 1:09:38Jordi Hays?

  And so that's just another reason that if Oracle's betting on Stargate and OpenAI and putting tens of billions of dollars to work with Sam Altman, they don't want to have association with a, you know, adjacent sort of indirect direct competitor.

• 1:09:53John Coogan?

  Yep. When you said, you know, chat can correct you, I was thinking, you know how ChatGPT owns chat.com? I feel like X should get the handle at chat and you should be able to just tag like at chat, is this real? And then Grok would respond and create like, so it's like sharing public Grok content and you could just have a conversation with Grok as a participant in the X feed. I thought that would be fun for them to do. I don't know who has at chat, but I thought that would be a good, a good little further rivalry for the two. One of them can get the dot com, one of them can get the at handle and they can duke it out.

• 1:10:37John Coogan?

  But let's move on to the, what do we got here? This isn't working. The F it Nvidia GPU belt Hampton shares a photo of a woman wearing a GPU belt. It looks like she also has a GPU phone case and a wonderful, maybe Cartier Santos there as well. Really, really stylish in this photo, but very cool, very cool to see Nvidia GPUs break into the fashion world. Jensen Wong, obviously a fashion aficionado with his leather jackets, very iconic.

• 1:11:18John Coogan?

  Maybe he should come out in some Nvidia GPU chain mail for the next, for the next big Nvidia release.

• 1:11:25Jordi Hays?

  Crazy, bulletproof, bulletproof.

• 1:11:28Jordi Hays?

  Jacket made of, you know, blackwalled chips.

• 1:11:31John Coogan?

  Yeah. But if you're looking for a Valentine's Day gift, this belt isn't for sale, but gpu purse.com was mentioned underneath here. There's a woman that makes purses out of GPUs. You can get a basic one for a thousand dollars and you can get an A100 for $64,000, something like that. I think the, I think the basic GPU purse is $1,024, 1024, very cool.

• 1:12:00Jordi Hays?

  And they actually, they build in the cooling fan.

• 1:12:02John Coogan?

  AI investor. Yeah, the cooling fans in there. So if you're a female AI investor, I think you gotta have the GPU purse. Certainly makes a statement when you're out at the founder's happy hours. But let's move on to some controversy in Hollywood, the IMAX versus the standard debate. Alice Maz says, still amazed, the movie companies made TVs are square, but only in theaters can you see rectangle? A slam dunk marketing strategy. And then a half a century later, somehow pulled off TVs are rectangle, but you can only see square in theaters.

• 1:12:43John Coogan?

  And it really is hilarious that they went just back and forth and back and forth here. But this image, if you're not watching the stream, it's from Dune and it is crazy how different the IMAX version looks from the cropped version. Maybe we should shoot our show in IMAX and, and demand that people see it in the theater. I think that'd be good.

• 1:13:06Jordi Hays?

  True. Coming to theaters near you.

• 1:13:09John Coogan?

  I've always been frustrated with IMAX. Like it became this marketing term. There's actually like a real definition of what an IMAX theater is. It has the ability to show these square images. There's one at Universal Studios Hollywood, but then they licensed the name out. So IMAX could mean just like a slightly bigger screen or better audio. And it became, they really muddled the brand. And when I think IMAX, I want the movie to be shot in IMAX and then I want it to be shown on an IMAX screen. And I want everything to be, the full chain of production needs to be IMAX. Same thing with 3D for a long. Long time, there were companies that would shoot the whole movie in 2D and then they'd pay people to go in and rotoscope and cut out all the different layers and make it 3D after the fact.

• 1:13:49John Coogan?

  As opposed to Avatar where James Cameron is literally shooting Avatar with two cameras to make it 3D from start to finish. The whole movie is shot in 3D. And it looks way better and it made people hate 3D because they were like, this is crappy looking.

• 1:14:02Jordi Hays?

  Speaking of movies, we gotta organize some, uh, brother, you know, movie events.

• 1:14:08John Coogan?

  Ben had an idea. He texted me about this. What, what did, The Accountant 2. The Accountant 2, uh, Ben Affleck, The Accountant gets a sequel nine years later. The Accountant 2 opens in theaters April 25th. After world premiering at South by Southwest. Watch the official trailer here. Uh, I think that's going to be a great movie for, for the boys.

• 1:14:29Jordi Hays?

  So stay tuned. Well, we can do them in a, in a few cities. We can do SF, LA, New York.

• 1:14:35John Coogan?

  Go buy a bunch of tickets on Fandango. They're refundable. Then go through your text messages. Text every dude who's in the same city as you. Hey, we're going to see The Accountant 2, this date, this time, this location. Are you in or are you out? And then, wear suit and then, uh, you know, you, you, you'll get, you know, you'll send out 20 messages. Eight guys will be in, 10 will show up. You'll refund the rest of the tickets. You'll be good and you'll have a great time and it's way better than, uh, being a degenerate and going and gambling on sports or drinking or winding up in the back of some limo. Running around, uh, Nashville. That would be a disaster. You wouldn't want to do that.

• 1:15:08Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:09John Coogan?

  And so.

• 1:15:09Jordi Hays?

  Avoid.

• 1:15:10John Coogan?

  Avoid. Uh, well, speaking of, of suits, if you're gonna wear a suit to the movie theater, you should definitely, uh, wear what we're promoting today. Laurel Piana. Crafted with an appreciation for Laurel Piana's master of fibers and raw and sourced raw materials from Fiona's gardener's farm. To the Maison's final garments, Pacora Nera is completely traceable throughout every step of its making. And so.

• 1:15:37Jordi Hays?

  Yeah. So people, uh.

• 1:15:39John Coogan?

  Laurel.

• 1:15:40Jordi Hays?

  A lot of people don't know this. You can go buy fabric from Loro Piana and then take it to your preferred tailor and they can use that to make a suit in, you know, completely bespoke and, you know, and customize, you know, every element of this. So I just did this with Jay Muser. You can also do this, you know, John, John Fios Fiorentino label can do this for you as well. So you don't need to go buy Loro Piana ready to wear at the store to where they're fine fabrics. So.

• 1:16:13John Coogan?

  Get the, get the money counter out when you're ready to spend some money on, on Loro. Well, let's move on to this fantastic post from Naveen Rao. This is one of the funniest and most amazing posts I've seen in a long time. So this is, this is one of the co-founders or executives at Databricks, the what $60 billion tech, tech company. He says, I have a ton of FOMO about the data AI summit we're putting on at Databricks. I will not be there since I've got my hands full with this. Super bummed, but it's going to be an amazing event. And so he is

• 1:16:53John Coogan?

  going racing in this incredible car and he can't make it to his own, his own AI summit, which is absolutely wild.

• 1:17:03Jordi Hays?

  This is the only, I don't want to hear, oh, I've got some family trip or I've got, my cousin's wedding. I can't make it to my own conference. I want to hear that you're, you know, you know, making a run at Le Mans, you know, and you need to be.

• 1:17:17John Coogan?

  That's what he's doing. He's doing the 24 hours Le Mans.

• 1:17:19Jordi Hays?

  Oh, so this is, okay.

• 1:17:21John Coogan?

  This is a Le Mans car. Yeah.

• 1:17:22Jordi Hays?

  Yeah. This, this looks right at home. There, this thing is beautiful. I wish they made more, you know, sort of street legal Le Mans-esque cars because this thing, imagine, imagine driving this to the grocery store.

• 1:17:38John Coogan?

  I mean, you just sound like someone who didn't get an Austin Martin Valkyrie allocation.

• 1:17:43Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:44John Coogan?

  I think it's a skill issue.

• 1:17:45Jordi Hays?

  Skill issue.

• 1:17:46John Coogan?

  If you just talk to your.

• 1:17:47Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, the Valkyrie.

• 1:17:48John Coogan?

  A little bit more, could have gotten the Valkyrie and you would have looked like this pulling up to Arowan.

• 1:17:52Jordi Hays?

  Yeah. Valkyrie, fantastic. But I wonder, does it say any more details on, on how, how this was manufactured or is it?

• 1:18:01John Coogan?

  I have no idea. I think there are a number of teams. Yeah, we got to have them on the show to talk about this because this is fantastic. We, I posted a comment about what, about what makes for good way to attract VCs. I should have put an LMP car, a Le Mans, great time and a lot of endurance at the 24 hours of Le Mans. But I said, what actually attracts VCs is the ability to drive stick, a good Nürburgring time, to being down to do the Dakar, owning a McLaren F1, being good at drifting, a solid Pikes Peak time, funny gumball stories, being a beast in the simulator, actively being on an F1 team, multiple Grand Prix wins and ideally seven F1 drivers championship

• 1:18:46John Coogan?

  titles. And so Naveen is well on his way. I understand why Founder's Fund ripped into the company. I understand why so many tier one VCs have been clamoring to put their money in Databricks with a guy like this on the team, somebody who's ready to endurance race at Le Mans, you can't go wrong. So very bullish.

• 1:19:06Jordi Hays?

  Credible.

• 1:19:07John Coogan?

  Let's move on to Dylan Patel. He says, "The new OpenAI model specs allow for sexual content. As we speak, millions of third world annotators are being tasked with the kinkiest role plays. Hundreds of thousands of AI judges are being spun up to provide reinforcement learning for synthetic furries. The market opportunities are endless." And I guess OpenAI redid their prohibitive content. They said prohibitive content should never be produced by the assistant in any circumstance, including transformations of user-provided content. To maximize freedom of our users, only sexual content involving minors is considered prohibited. And there's a little pushback here. Maine says, "Please read the next section. Sensitive

• 1:19:49John Coogan?

  content may only be generated under specific circumstances." And in general, they don't want the model to respond with erotica. But we'll see how this plays out. And I'm sure you'll see it on the timeline because people will get the model to do all sorts of funny things and post it for, for, for likes and impressions.

• 1:20:10Jordi Hays?

  Uh, this is the nec- the natural, you know, OpenAI can't let character AI just run away with all the erotica. You know, this was bound to happen at some point. People don't realize that everything that people are doing with OpenAI, OpenAI will do eventually. Like, that does seem to be, uh, the, the only thing that they don't seem to want to do is all of the reinforcement learning and offshoring and things like that, right? So stuff that's sort of like, you know, doesn't touch the user, right? They don't necessarily care about, you know, um, except, you know, data centers. But then, um, naturally, if they see character AI with, you know, billions of visits a year,

• 1:20:54Jordi Hays?

  they're going to eventually sort of move in that direction or allow the product to be used in that way. And probably smart for them to just focus on these sort of more, you know, uh, PG consumer use cases of how to do your homework, uh, you know, helping with homework or writing or marketing copy or things like that. But eventually, you know, uh, you know, they'll support, you know, seemingly everything.

• 1:21:17John Coogan?

  Yeah, I saw Justin Moore share some videos from TikTok of, uh, women who had essentially jailbroken ChatGPT to some extent to create kind of a, not erotic, but just generic boyfriend or kind of a, like a, a more of a, more of a personality character that they could talk to for a long time and they were having a lot of fun with that. It'll be interesting to see where it goes. I'm sure we'll see lots of examples, uh, but let's move on to Reggie James, good friend of the show. He says, "One suggestion for Elon Musk. Freedom of speech on this site is great, but the agency around what I see is horrendous. The for you feed clearly has an agenda and that's fine. Many for you feeds do, but two powerful features give users more agency.

• 1:22:00John Coogan?

  Allow people to make their lists, their default feed. You can actually do this if you use it on web and you, uh, install this, uh, this thing called social focus as a, as a browser add-on. It kind of degrades the experience, but you can actually mute the for you feed and just use a list or just the following tab if you want, but it requires actually modifying the HTML and this plugin. It's very janky. And then he also says, "Opening up the tuning of the for you feed and settings so users can see more of what they'd like." And Armand says, why be in your own echo chamber when you can be in Elon's? And yeah, the feed, it's honestly like great one week and then terrible the next week. It really feels like it's all over the place.

• 1:22:44John Coogan?

  And I think that also affects like post performance just from tech people. Like I think we've certainly felt like, oh, today, like, like the posts just aren't doing well. Maybe that's on us, but also maybe the algorithm.

• 1:22:57Jordi Hays?

  I get, I get messages from people every single day being like, what's going on? Am I shadow banned?

• 1:23:04John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 1:23:05Jordi Hays?

  You know, there's like this weird balance where when you're posting your, if you're posting a specific type of content from a specific lens, you're acquiring followers that want that kind of content. And so if you change the content that you're putting out, your engagement is going to drop because you need to find new people that want that kind of content. And, you know, maybe you're hopefully attracting like a generalist audience that's generally interested in a lot of the things that, you know, you, you want to talk about. But there's a lot of factors at play here. I think, you know, I think these two suggestions from Reggie are awesome.

• 1:23:41John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 1:23:41Jordi Hays?

  It makes a lot of sense. I would like to have them. I think that the X team would look at this and say, that's great and all. But if we encourage that, we may see a 30% drop in overall user activity. Because there's this, again, this sort of balance between stated preferences, which I want business content and I want educational content and I want stuff about AI. And then the revealed preference, which is.

• 1:24:14John Coogan?

  I want.

• 1:24:14Jordi Hays?

  Montoya.

• 1:24:15John Coogan?

  Yeah, Montoya, yeah. The real.

• 1:24:18Jordi Hays?

  And.

• 1:24:19John Coogan?

  Reality show dramas.

• 1:24:21Jordi Hays?

  You know, if we put out a video that's, you know, breaking down, slow launching their new creator fund. And then, you know, the user can kind of see the next video is like Montoya or whatever. You know, like freaking out, it's like, it's difficult to compete with him.

• 1:24:35John Coogan?

  Exactly, exactly.

• 1:24:36Jordi Hays?

  He's got the attention of the world. So.

• 1:24:38John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:39Jordi Hays?

  Yeah. And, and I do, you know, I feel like I was lucky to come on, on the original Twitter at a time when. I would see basically a hundred percent content from other sort of business people, investors, and maybe they would post something like about F1 when F1 is happening and you see that. But then it's just generally the feed felt more like a professionalized. That was what I was there for. And then now the one, one challenge I've had, you know, every activity that you're doing on the app affects, you know, what you're going to see in the for you page. I started just for Banger Archive when I would see like a, a post that got like a hundred and 50,000 likes.

• 1:25:21Jordi Hays?

  I started just copying and pasting it into a, uh, into a notes app. And I realized that I was training the algorithm to think that I really wanted that.

• 1:25:32John Coogan?

  Interesting.

• 1:25:32Jordi Hays?

  Cause now I'm like, I don't want to, I'm not going to keep doing that.

• 1:25:36John Coogan?

  Interesting.

• 1:25:37Jordi Hays?

  Because I don't want it to think that I just want that kind of content. Like I'm fine with like one out of 20 posts being some viral slop. But I wanted to all be that.

• 1:25:45John Coogan?

  I also noticed that I think the algorithm, it, it, it sorts everything and ranks everything, but eventually it runs out of like tech content. And so what I'll notice is like, if I haven't been on for a while, I load up the feed. It's actually really high quality, good stuff from tech and business people that I really want to engage with. And then as I scroll down after a while, I run out of that and there's just not that much more content. And then it'll be like, well, like, why don't we just show you like this, you know, politically enraging thing, or this sports thing, or this viral moment, or this, uh, reality TV drama. And it's not so much that it's like, yeah, it's like, it's not really like you want this the most. The algorithm is just like, hey, this is the best thing I got for you right now. Cause you ran out of tech content.

• 1:26:29Jordi Hays?

  When I was 22, I distinctly remember running out of new content on Twitter, which is basically the cardinal sin of a social media app. Right. Your user wants to be using the app because they're addicted and you're not providing for them, you know? It's like, it's, it'd be like turning on the TV and CNN is blank, you know?

• 1:26:48John Coogan?

  The answer is for tech people just to post way more, just post more and over, overload the feed.

• 1:26:54Jordi Hays?

  A lot of people have this, a lot of people have this, you know, sort of thing where, oh, I already posted once today. Or I, I had a good post today. I'm going to take the rest of the night off. No. Uh, you know, I think I honestly think that's this mentality of like the, the original Instagram posting, like the common, the common sort of strategy on Instagram. If you were like an Instagram influencer, which is like, make sure you post once a day. And it was almost like rude to post more, but now that everything's algorithmic, uh, the algorithm is going to show people your content if it thinks that they were going to enjoy it. And they're not, if not, it's like very, um, and so you'll see like I,

• 1:27:38Jordi Hays?

  I posted a bunch yesterday because I was flying back from the East Coast and maybe like six of my posts did well. And then one that I thought was the funniest, just completely bombed, you know? It's like, uh,

• 1:27:49John Coogan?

  Happens. Yeah, just post through it. Post through the pain. Doesn't matter what. You just gotta keep going. Well, let's move on to, uh, one of the greatest posters. He's been on the show many times. Will Minnott. He says, you could spend the rest of your life complaining about New York City rent prices, or you could simply live in this houseboat for $2,500 a month and commute to Midtown via jet ski kayak the six in like 15 minutes. A better life is possible. I think that's so funny.

• 1:28:16Jordi Hays?

  I, I've joked before about jet skiing into LA from Malibu because PCH can just get so bad. Traffic wise, I'm like, if I was able to rip at 60 miles an hour on the open water, can you imagine how great you'd feel after, uh, you know, for your, for your day of work? If you just spent like 30 minutes jet skiing into work, that, that, that just seems like the dream to me. So it's definitely something here. Uh, we gotta get, I've never actually stayed on a, I've stayed over on boats, but I've never stayed on a houseboat. I, uh,

• 1:28:49John Coogan?

  Can you just build a mansion and call it a houseboat? Like how crazy can we get? Can we anchor these to the ground? Or we can just, are we just going to wind up doing landfill and just expanding? Like, can you just take up as much space as you want? Cause you could get crazy.

• 1:29:02Jordi Hays?

  San Francisco actually has like the, the bay has issues with this around people that just get an old boat and just live in it. And it's kind of this weird. Gray area and they try to enforce it in different ways, but I'd be down for for aquatic podcasts.

• 1:29:18John Coogan?

  This is this is the sea studying that what's his name, Patri Friedman was working on. It was a big libertarian push for sea studying for a while. We talked to those guys who did Sealand. They live in that communications platform off of off of the UK. And yeah, this is the future. I love it. Anyway, let's move on to I got put in the truth zone. I got a community note. I said, I can't believe this is a real photo. Yes, that's Mistral, the French LLM company from the Wall Street Journal, Helsing Mistral to jointly develop AI systems for military use. And I posted a photo of a Mistral three missile. And I

• 1:29:59John Coogan?

  got a community note here says, no, this is not by Mistral AI. In fact, the picture shows a Mistral three missile. The missiles are produced by MBDA, a European group in the field of complex weapon systems. Mistral is a common naming in French, a strong cold northwesterly wind in southern France. I got put in the truth zone, but this is from the Wall Street Journal. I stole the photo. I tried to give them a little bit of credit there and they fooled me and I got I got slapped with a with a community.

• 1:30:32Jordi Hays?

  Wait, so miss Wall Street Journal.

• 1:30:35John Coogan?

  Wall Street Journal clearly just Googled Mistral missile because there is news like it is true that Mistral is doing a defense contact contract, but Mistral has not manufactured a missile and printed their name on that missile. So the Wall Street Journal either was just trying to be representative or they just got confused and they posted a picture that's it is a the wrong missile Mistral, but it's not from the company Mistral that we know. And so a little bit of an update, a little bit of a mea culpa, but really this one's on the Wall Street Journal. So I take no responsibility.

• 1:31:10Jordi Hays?

  We are not journalists. No, we are, you know.

• 1:31:14John Coogan?

  We are reaction live streamers. Anyway, let's move on to Guillermo over at Versel. They he says, was fantastic to serve ramp during this big Super Bowl moment. Let's play the song from the Super Bowl ad. Is it working? No.

• 1:31:30John Coogan?

  No, okay, we're working on our soundboard here. They reported a 46% or 46x traffic uptick within seconds and 100% uptime without any manual config or provisioning on Vercel. More to come. I love that we're seeing more breakdowns and behind the scenes of how a Super Bowl ad gets played out. I know that people are probably completely oversaturated with ramped Super Bowl ads because they took over the timeline so many times, but I think that there probably is a very interesting case study here, especially on the content delivery network CDN side and all the things that Vercel does to help websites deal with unexpected traffic. I believe Coinbase ran into a problem actually because they put that QR code up on the Super Bowl and I think

• 1:32:15John Coogan?

  they hadn't scaled appropriately and they had some downtime. And so Guillermo's there to save the day. So if you're going to do a Super Bowl ad.

• 1:32:23Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, downtime downtime on a Super Bowl ad could, you know, easily be a multi, you know, multi tens of millions of dollars in like lost, you know, customer value because people are watching the Super Bowl. They don't really care about your company that much. You give them a brief reason to care and they try to download your app or sign up and it doesn't work and they're just on to the next thing. You know, e-commerce operators deal with this all the time around Black Friday. If their site goes down for 30 minutes at the wrong time, it could be like a million dollars of lost sales, right?

• 1:32:59John Coogan?

  Terrible. Well, let's move on to David. He says the Cyber Plaid project is about to get fun. I think he took a Tesla Model S Plaid and he's outfitting it with Cybertruck aesthetics. This is super obvious. I hope Elon actually makes this production car. I think this looks awesome and what a way to stand out in. The supercar market where everything kind of looks the same right now. You think about a Ferrari 296, the SF90, the Pininfarina Batista, the Ramazan Vera, even the McLaren W1, they all kind of look the same. Lamborghini has something good going with a Revolto, in my opinion.

• 1:33:43John Coogan?

  It does look differentiated, but it's still just like a wedge. But there's really a lot of like not particularly interesting stuff going on at the high end of the supercar market, in my opinion. And

• 1:33:55Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 1:33:55John Coogan?

  Something with Cybertruck aesthetics would really lend itself to a low to the ground supercar that would be super

• 1:34:02Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:03John Coogan?

  And I really hope it happens.

• 1:34:05Jordi Hays?

  I think they need the electric muscle car. You know, what is the, what's the futuristic, you know, version of a challenge, you know, Dodge Challenger, Challenger is

• 1:34:17John Coogan?

  And I haven't, I'm so burnt out. I think the Model 3, Model S, X, Y, they all look decent, but they all have the exact same aesthetic and they've been completely played out. The Cybertruck stands out still. There's a lot on the road, but I get excited every time I see them. My kids get excited when they see them. They stand out, they're really cool. And I think bringing that aesthetic into something that is more exotic, like there's a reason they call sports cars exotic sports cars, like they're supposed to look exotic. Once, once they look all the same, you see that with the Ferrari Pure Blood, what's that one called? The Purosangue? It looks like a Mazda and the Mazda SUV looks exactly the same. Obviously, like you can tell them apart, but it's just not pushing the design envelope enough.

• 1:35:00John Coogan?

  And Ferrari has been kind of coasting on that original Pininfarina design language that they got from the F8 and they brought that to the 296 and they all look great. But it's a little, it's getting a little stale. And I think something that looks more like a Cybertruck would really turn heads and be cool. So I would love to see it and I hope that the

• 1:35:19Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, the

• 1:35:20John Coogan?

  Hope that it comes out.

• 1:35:21Jordi Hays?

  Ferrari is just unbelievably lost.

• 1:35:23John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 1:35:24Jordi Hays?

  I mean, the 12 cylinders sales are Terrible. Nobody wants them. It's priced way too high.

• 1:35:31John Coogan?

  Hot take, I think the 12 cylinder, the Dolce Tri- Tri- Tri- Tri- looks fantastic. I love it.

• 1:35:36Jordi Hays?

  I mean, it's, it's a good looking car.

• 1:35:39John Coogan?

  But yeah, not at 800K or whatever.

• 1:35:41Jordi Hays?

  In the context of any of their other models, right? If you look at the 812,

• 1:35:45John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:35:46Jordi Hays?

  It looks much, much worse.

• 1:35:48John Coogan?

  I think it looks better, but that's a hot take. I, I understand that's better. But I, I really like the, the F80, the black bar in the front. I think that looks really cool. But I am in the minority there for sure, for sure.

• 1:35:59Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:00John Coogan?

  Anyway.

• 1:36:01Jordi Hays?

  Yep. Um, what else we got? Uh, by the way, I do have somewhat of a, I gotta go meet, Okay. With Bob from, uh,

• 1:36:12John Coogan?

  Well, let's, uh, let's do a promoted post from Ben Braverman. Saga is hiring a principal to join the investment team. What a great gig. If you're looking to get into venture. What is Saga? We are one of the only sizable funds raised during the great VC winter. Partners are Max Altman, that's Sam's brother, and it's Thompson and Ben Braverman, who was at Flexport, writing checks alongside Ryan Peterson for a long time. Saga leads and co-leads at seed and series A with reserves to continue at the B plus. We've incubated one company already with plans for more. What is a principal role at Saga?

• 1:36:51John Coogan?

  And he puts in a typo here. He says, what is A, the principal role? Smart for the algorithm. Going to get more likes. People know it wasn't AI generated. You are joining the founding team. You will help shape the firm's brand and strategy. You will join the investment team on day one. This is not a farm league program where you spin your wheels for a year. You will source as many top companies as possible, participate in diligence and represent the Saga brand. You will be highly compensated, including significant carry. So if you're looking to get into venture, head on over to Ben Braverman's page and send him a DM.

• 1:37:23Jordi Hays?

  Love the name Saga, by the way. Sometimes a new venture firm launches and you're like, "Okay, they're clearly running out of names for venture firms," but Saga is just like, "Sounds good, makes sense." And it's cool to see that there, you can tell they're building a firm, right? This is not, this, this looks to be setting up as, you know, we're actually building a team versus, you know, we have our rock star GPs and then there's a support staff, but you know, this is, you know, clearly trying to, you know, actually build out a proper investment team, which we'd love to see.

• 1:37:57John Coogan?

  A post from Patrick Collison over at Stripe. Can you hear that?

• 1:38:03Jordi Hays?

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 1:38:05John Coogan?

  I love it. Patrick Collison says-

• 1:38:08Jordi Hays?

  Was there, was there a sound effect?

• 1:38:09John Coogan?

  Yeah, I'm trying to play sound effects, but it's not working. Who knows?

• 1:38:12Jordi Hays?

  It might be that, it might be that the stream can hear it, but I can't. Who knows?

• 1:38:15John Coogan?

  Okay, anyway, we'll have fun with that. We'll work it out. Patrick says, "It's happening, all built on Stripe." Ben Langs says, "Tiny teams are the future. Cursor, $0 to $100 million ARR in 21 months with 20 people. Bolt, $0 to $20 million. Lovable, $0 to $10 million. Merckor, $0 to $50 million, all with very small teams and of course, built on Stripe." David Holes from Mid Journey chimes in and says, "They left out Mid Journey, of course, but we're very grateful for Stripe too." And so, everyone is building on Stripe and it's a great example of just, you know, a great tool that speeds up development of everything and then you can spend more time building your company and pumping up those revenue numbers, which I love to see.

• 1:38:58Jordi Hays?

  Absolutely wild. We also have some great news from Figma. We talked about, we talked about the factors driving just this ridiculous growth of some of these new companies like Cursor and Merckor and Bolt and an under, underrepresented part of that is just you can scale billing infinitely with, with, you know, very little operational overhead. So, it wasn't the case, you know, 12, 15 years ago.

• 1:39:26John Coogan?

  Well, you know, the fans love to hear about minor Figma product updates and we got a massive minor product update from Figma. Good news, frosted glass UI fans, SVG exports from Figma will now properly render black background blur and both angular and diamond gradients. Let's go. Let's hear it for Figma, boys. We love Dylan. We love the team over at Figma. And yeah, I mean, these changes are heard around the world. Brooklyn is permanently changed whenever one of these rolls out and we're happy to see the team over at Figma. Absolutely crushing. We love to see.

• 1:40:07Jordi Hays?

  Absolute dogs. They're definitely, they're definitely in founder mode. Like Dylan is back, clearly locked in. The first thing I noticed was, was their updated billing practices. Definitely, you know, knowing that I value the product a lot and trying to, you know, get some of that, actually capture some of that value. But yeah, awesome to see them shipping aggressively just because they're so well positioned to dominate Gen AI in design, right? There's a lot of people that are, have come out and raised money for, we're Figma for Gen AI or generative design. And I would argue that Dylan would say Figma is the Figma of generative design.

• 1:40:48John Coogan?

  100%. I mean, the guy's super tapped in and has been for a really long time on the AI stuff. He's not playing catch up. This is not Adobe. This is a founder-led, founder mode company through and through with a lot of capital and a lot of great team members and a lot of, a lot of customers that are already using the product, a lot of distribution. Well, did you see the first major, in my opinion, drone show advertisement in America? Nick says, for All-Star Weekend, the Jordan brand has 1,200 drones taking off from Treasure Island to create the Jumpman, Air Jordan 1 and number 23 over the Bay Bridge. And I

• 1:41:29John Coogan?

  think this is super cool. You know that AdQuick can do this for you. Ben's gonna play the video. And it's just fascinating to see that this is finally coming to America. We've been behind the ball on drones, both in the military context and in the advertising context, which is in some ways as important. And we're really happy to see that these shows have made it to America.

• 1:41:51Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, this is the coolest, basically a top three ad format for me. Blimps are still up there just because they're timeless, but uh

• 1:42:01John Coogan?

  Vibes.

• 1:42:02Jordi Hays?

  Can't, we're gonna put, we're gonna use ad quick to put a ramp card in the sky. We gotta do it. Uh, maybe we throw up a microphone uh at some point to to honor all hardworking podcasters, but uh this is just, it's still, I I think this is one of those things that basically forever it'll still be um, it's hard to imagine a world where where people are fully normalized to this, right? Because it's, it feels just like so intensely futuristic. So um, yeah, if um people can just sign up for ad quick and and talk to their rep and and make this happen, but uh if you have any um, you know, issues, feel free to reach out and and we would love to actually help with the campaign around the the creative and ideation.

• 1:42:47John Coogan?

  Yeah. Oh, speaking of partnerships, uh, Eight Sleep sent us some fabulous hats.

• 1:42:53Jordi Hays?

  There we go. Put it on. Dude, John, you're looking, you're looking kind of, kind of like an athlete right now.

• 1:43:00John Coogan?

  It goes, it goes well.

• 1:43:01Jordi Hays?

  You are an athlete, but.

• 1:43:03John Coogan?

  I am a corporate athlete, but the black suit, the black hat, this is a good combo. And. We got a bunch of these, maybe we'll give some away.

• 1:43:09Jordi Hays?

  And being six eight, you do, you look like uh, you look like you, you're, you're about to sign a a max contract.

• 1:43:17John Coogan?

  I gave ChatGPT all of my stats, my height, my weight, my body fat percentage and all of my measurements and had it benchmark me against athletes and give me tips for like where I should improve. And it was very complimentary. It was great.

• 1:43:31Jordi Hays?

  People don't, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, uh, I'm gonna, I'm gonna gas you up for a second because people don't know this, but John is actually just ridic, like way too jacked for being a podcaster who's not selling supplements.

• 1:43:47John Coogan?

  It was so funny. It says, uh, so I I had it put every measurement in uh, in like percentiles and and on my height, I'm six eight and it says exceptionally tall. This is elite even among athletes. I love that.

• 1:44:01Jordi Hays?

  But here's the thing.

• 1:44:02John Coogan?

  My neck is in the 90th percentile. It says, a strong, thick neck supports overall upper body aesthetics and function. Let's go chat GPT. Thank you, Sam.

• 1:44:12Jordi Hays?

  Every, every time we've been with, uh, you know, uh, the boys recently, I feel like somebody has asked, like, is John on gear? Like, it comes up, like, people are, so, so the, the goal in life is to not be on gear, but have people think that you are, uh, you know, think that you are.

• 1:44:31John Coogan?

  Eight sleep is the only performance enhancement that I need. I sleep, I sleep like a baby, eight hours a night. My sleep score is at 90 today. Not bad. Not where it should be. Should be at 100. Tonight's a new night. I'm, I'll get there. Uh, but yeah, the performance has been tip top lately. It's been great. Sleep well, get in the gym, crush it, lots of caffeine, a little bit of nicotine, and, uh, that's all you need.

• 1:44:55Jordi Hays?

  Incredible.

• 1:44:56John Coogan?

  That's all you need. Uh, we got another, we got another delivery in the mail. This one's a little bit old. We're, we're late getting to this. But Ian McCready heard our Vale episode, our deep dive on Vale, and sent us a beautiful book on Vale. There, it says Vale Triumph of a Dream. It's a full history of Vale. I don't know if you can see this, but it's like, serious. This is a serious, serious book. Sent us a whole copy. So we'll have to do a whole, whole extra deep dive on the history of Vale, because we have the authoritative copy now with lots of great images of Vale. And so, thank you. Thank you, Ian, for sending that.

• 1:45:33Jordi Hays?

  We'll take any opportunity to talk about.

• 1:45:35John Coogan?

  A very nice handwritten note. Said, it's been great getting to know you. Vale is a special place for my family. Uh, my grandfather was involved with the mountains since the, since, uh, nearly the beginning. I hope you enjoy the book and consider it an invitation to join me at our place anytime. Look forward to connecting again soon. So thanks, Ian, for sending that in. And, uh, yeah, good to have you as a fan of the show. Do you have, uh, time for one more post? Or should we wrap it up?

• 1:46:00Jordi Hays?

  Of course I got time for one more post, Sean.

• 1:46:02John Coogan?

  Let's do it. Let's do it. Um.

• 1:46:07John Coogan?

  Still not working. I'm having fun.

• 1:46:10Jordi Hays?

  Wait, we didn't get to the, so people in the chat were asking about the Jamie Dimon reaction.

• 1:46:16John Coogan?

  Oh yeah, let's do that.

• 1:46:16Jordi Hays?

  We should get into that because it's, it's.

• 1:46:19John Coogan?

  That one is time.

• 1:46:20Jordi Hays?

  I saw, I don't know if this is the post that we pulled.

• 1:46:23John Coogan?

  I have it. John Ziegler. In leaked audio, Jamie Dimon tells his, takes his employees, especially the younger ones, to the woodshed over their desire to keep working remotely. He says, well, remote, remote work is terrible. I don't know if Ben has the clip, but Jamie, you're on notice. Ben, you want to play this clip?

• 1:46:40Speaker 02

  A lot of you were on the fucking Zoom and you were doing the following, okay? You know, looking at your mail, sending texts to each other about where an asshole the other person is. Okay. Not paying attention, not reading your stuff, you know? And if you don't think that slows down efficiency, creativity, creates rudeness and stuff, it does. Okay. And when I found out that people are doing that, you don't do that in my goddamn meetings. You're going to meet with me, you got my attention, you got my focus, I don't bring my goddamn phone, I'm not sending texts to people. Okay. It simply doesn't work and it doesn't work for creativity. It slows down decision making and don't give me the shit that work from home Friday works. I call a lot of people on Friday, they're not a goddamn person to get ahold of.

• 1:47:23Speaker 02

  But here are the problems, okay? And they are substantial, okay? Which is the young generation is being damaged by this. That may, they may, it may not be in your particular staff, but they are being left behind. They're being left behind socially, ideas, meeting people. In fact, my guess is most of you live in communities a hell of a lot less diverse than this room. Every area should be looking to be 10% more efficient. If I was ready to depart 100 people, I guarantee you, if I wanted to, I could run it with 90 and be more efficient. I guarantee you, I could do it, I could do it in my sleep. And the notion, these bureaucracies, I need more people, I can't get it done. No, because you're filling out requests that don't need to be done. Your people are going to meetings they don't need to go to.

• 1:48:08Speaker 02

  Someone told me to approve some of his wealth management that they had to go to 14 committees. I am dying to get the name of the 14 committees and I feel like firing 14 chairman of committees. I can't stand it anymore. Now you have a choice. You don't have to work at JP Morgan. So the people of you who don't want to work at the company, that's fine with me. I'm not, I'm not mad at you. Don't be mad at me. It's a free country. You can walk on your feet, you know, but this company is going to set our own standards and do it our own way. And, and I've had it with this kind of stuff. And, you know, I, I come in, you know, I've been working seven days a goddamn week since COVID. And I come in and I, where's everybody else? But they're here and there and the zooms and the zoomers don't show up. And people said they didn't get stuff. So that's not how you run a great company.

• 1:48:53Speaker 02

  We didn't build this great company by doing that, by doing the same semi diseased shit that everybody else does.

• 1:49:00John Coogan?

  I love it. Jordy, you can't help but think he is, uh, you know, reading between the lines. He's talking about you.

• 1:49:06Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:49:07John Coogan?

  You work from home Friday, no suit jacket, no tie, really phoned it in remotely.

• 1:49:14Jordi Hays?

  No, I would.

• 1:49:14John Coogan?

  Remote podcasters, they're on their way out and they're dying breed. It's in person bust.

• 1:49:18Jordi Hays?

  I would take it a step further. This, this sounds like some private conversations that we've had.

• 1:49:23John Coogan?

  I think so.

• 1:49:24Jordi Hays?

  When I've used my phone on the set and you, and you, you know, you, you start pulling out some swear words.

• 1:49:29John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 1:49:30Jordi Hays?

  You know, you're getting real testy, letting loose. But okay, here's, here's my actual read on this. I think this, I, I don't know how the audio clip emerged, but it was positioned as, as leaked audio.

• 1:49:40John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 1:49:41Jordi Hays?

  And to me, this is, uh, I have to imagine he, he wanted this to leak.

• 1:49:46John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:49:47Jordi Hays?

  Because it makes him look like an incredible CEO, right? He's, he's setting clear expectations.

• 1:49:54John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 1:49:54Jordi Hays?

  He's frustrated with how things are happening and he's actively changing it. He's giving people an out. He is setting the, he's living the standard that he's expecting of other people. He's not asking anybody to do anything that he's not willing to do. He's right, I come into the meetings, you don't see me on my phone. You don't see me emailing other people while I'm in the meeting. He's like, I'm focused, I'm prepared. And so he's setting the standard and he expects other people to follow here. And look, I think that a company like JP Morgan will be able to reduce headcount dramatically over time. And so to me, what he's, you know, he wants the people that want to work remotely. He does like, why would a CEO want his team to work remotely? Right? He is, there's this value exchange that happens with the company and their employees, which is,

• 1:50:39Jordi Hays?

  I'm going to pay you to provide services for the company. And you can decide whether that value exchange makes sense. And if you don't feel the values there by coming to the office, you're welcome to leave. And so he's setting this up to say, doesn't want more remote work. I think he genuinely believes that it's bad for, you know, younger employees, right? There's very clear arguments for why like more senior people should be able to work remotely, at least part-time and be effective in that way. But at the same time, it's very fair for a CEO to set their own standards, right? This is not, this is not, this is not like a charity or a support program for people, right? They're choosing to work at JP Morgan. And so I think that

• 1:51:24Jordi Hays?

  this is sending a very clear message to the world and to his employees that he's setting new standards and all of the COVID, you know, stuff is, uh, you know, somebody posted that, you know, looks like Jamie Dimon, you know, found his, uh, his, um, I'm not going to say.

• 1:51:42John Coogan?

  Elon.

• 1:51:44Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, he just sort of found his, his, you know, he feels like he's positioned to sort of speak his mind now. And, and while we don't appreciate the sort of vulgar language that he used, uh, I think he's, he's generally like completely correct in his analysis. And if I'm working at JP Morgan, I'm working five days, six days a week in the office. And I hear my CEO say this, I'm only fired up to work even harder.

• 1:52:09John Coogan?

  Totally.

• 1:52:09Jordi Hays?

  Than, than I was before. And there's certainly people that are going to listen to that and they're going to say, I actually want a remote job. That's what's important to me. And so they can go work somewhere else.

• 1:52:21John Coogan?

  Well, let's close out with the announcement from Tim Cook, another CEO. He says, get ready to meet the newest member of the family Wednesday, February 19th. There's an Apple launch and a lot of people put on a tinfoil hat here because Elon Musk reposted Tim Cook's announcement about a new product unveiling. And so Bill Gurley chimes in and says, I know nothing, but just for kicks, imagine a Tesla slash Apple co-branded vehicle that sells for $200,000. Don't both stocks soar? And my read on this was that, look, Apple and Elon have had a like somewhat tumultuous relationship during the acquisition.

• 1:53:04John Coogan?

  He Elon famously went for a walk with Tim Cook. There was a question about App Store fees for converting people to paid memberships. Would Apple be taking 30% on that? Would they be able to negotiate that down? Apple's also been an advertiser on Twitter and now X for a long time. And I think Elon wants the two companies to be working because Apple's a great big advertiser. And I think reposting this, A, could just be a cool thing, but also giving Tim some extra juice in the algorithm just is a good sign of good faith that, hey, we're going to get your, your, your, your content to go a little bit further on our platform organically. And then, yeah, you're going to spend a couple of million bucks probably advertising on our platform and we're all bought in on this.

• 1:53:47John Coogan?

  So I'm hesitant about their idea that they're going to launch a car together, but that would be awesome.

• 1:53:52Jordi Hays?

  I, I think another kind of crazy idea would be Apple CarPlay for humanoid robots, right? There's a world where app like so, oh, oh.

• 1:54:03John Coogan?

  I don't follow.

• 1:54:04Jordi Hays?

  Sorry, sorry. I, for, for a brief second, I, I was thinking that Tesla had a CarPlay integration. They actually don't.

• 1:54:11John Coogan?

  They don't.

• 1:54:11Jordi Hays?

  It's not that, but you can imagine, but I, but I do think in the future, right? Like there, there, if you have a humanoid robot in your home or you, you know, employ one in some way.

• 1:54:20John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:54:21Jordi Hays?

  Obviously. So anyways.

• 1:54:22John Coogan?

  The much more obvious thing, if we're actually talking about a partnership would be Starlink on iPhones, right? Like we've already seen that that's rolling out and just making an official, like there's a million different things. Yeah, I saw that one too.

• 1:54:34Jordi Hays?

  Rivian doing the same thing, you know, who knows?

• 1:54:36John Coogan?

  Rivian has been posting about a cryptic event happening the same day. And so maybe there's something deeper happening there. I don't know.

• 1:54:44Jordi Hays?

  Or

• 1:54:44John Coogan?

  Elon's talked about making a phone before. There's so many different possibilities with Elon.

• 1:54:48Jordi Hays?

  People don't realize that Elon would find out about Rivian doing an event on like and then host an event the same day and do it with Apple to just try to like drown it out.

• 1:54:57John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 1:54:58Jordi Hays?

  Everybody's a savage at that level. But anyways, I'm excited to see we hopefully we'll be live streaming when this happens and we can just, you know, talk about it live.

• 1:55:06John Coogan?

  I think it should come pre-installed. You should not be able to delete the app. It should be the only app on your phone. That should be the new version of the iPhone. Get rid of the notes app. Just post a tweet if you want, if you want to make a note. You know, instead of calling someone, just call them over a DM on X. It's the everything app. You don't need anything else. Just one app on your iPhone. And that's the new, that's the new iPhone.

• 1:55:30Jordi Hays?

  I gotta go hang with Rob.

• 1:55:31John Coogan?

  Let's get out of here.

• 1:55:32Jordi Hays?

  The, the, you know, potentially the greatest podcast producer of all time at currently Ben coming hot up on his heels.

• 1:55:42John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 1:55:42Jordi Hays?

  But just wanted to say that. Thank you for listening, brothers. It was a good week. We're going to be back in the studio full time next week, which I'm excited about. And I wanted to remind everybody that we are not independent media. We are dependent media. We are dependent on our advertisers. And I just wanted to thank Ramp, Adquick, Wander, Public, Bezel, and Eight Sleep for their support.

• 1:56:08John Coogan?

  I have some big Bezel news coming soon. I'm excited.

• 1:56:11Jordi Hays?

  Can't wait. Awesome.

• 1:56:12John Coogan?

  So leave us a, leave us a five star review on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Put an ad in your review. We'll read it on the show. And thanks for listening. We'll see you next week. Have a great weekend.

• 1:56:24Jordi Hays?

  Happy Valentine's. Have a great weekend.

• 1:56:26John Coogan?

  Happy Valentine's.

• 1:56:27Jordi Hays?

  Valentine's Day. Big day.

• 1:56:29John Coogan?

  Big day for the brothers.

• 1:56:31Jordi Hays?

  Big day.

• 1:56:32John Coogan?

  Talk to you soon.