Andrew Ng: The Biggest Opportunities in AI Aren't Where You Think

Andrew Ng co-founded Coursera, built the founding team at Google Brain, and has taught roughly 8 million people AI. In this episode, he pushes back on the AI job panic making the rounds this year, walks through the actual math on how much of a job AI can automate, and explains why he thinks universities are still teaching students for a job market from 2022. He also gets specific about what he looks for when hiring marketers, recruiters, and ops people now — and admits that despite building his career on AI education companies, AI is currently terrible for learning. 📩 Follow my Newsletter: https://siliconvalleygirl.beehiiv.com/p/your-first-autonomous-agent-in-20-min-5429?utm_source=spotify&utm_medium=video&utm_campaign=futureproof-sub&utm_content=first-agent https://siliconvalleygirl.beehiiv.com/p/your-first-autonomous-agent-in-20-min-5429?utm_source=spotify&utm_medium=video&utm_campaign=futureproof-sub&utm_content=first-agent ⁠⁠⁠⁠ https://www.instagram.com/siliconvalleygirl/𝕏 : ⁠⁠⁠https://x.com/siliconvalleymm⁠⁠⁠ https://x.com/siliconvalleymm 🔗 Instagram: ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.instagram.com/siliconvalleygirl/⁠⁠⁠ https://www.instagram.com/siliconvalleygirl/ 💼 LinkedIn: ⁠⁠⁠https://www.linkedin.com/in/marinamogilko⁠⁠⁠ https://www.linkedin.com/in/marinamogilko 📌 My Companies & Products: ⁠⁠⁠https://Marinamogilko.co https://Marinamogilko.co

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:02Speaker 00

  The action's on the court. And as the official beer sponsor of the NBA, Michelob Ultra is getting fans closer to the game with a chance to win courtside seats, merch, and more. Visit michelobultra.com/courtside to enter. Michelob Ultra Courtside, 26 to 27. No purchase necessary. Open to U.S. residents 21+. Begins on October 1st, 2026 and ends on June 30th, 2027. Multiple entry periods. See official rules at michelobultra.com/courtside for free entry, entry deadlines, prizes, and details.

• 0:30Speaker 01

  Are your ad campaigns lighting up the dashboard? But not the pipeline? That's bullspend. And marketers are calling it out in dashboard confessions.

• 0:39Speaker 00

  My boss asked for results, so I opened my dashboard for the only positive sounding metric I had: impressions.

• 0:47Speaker 01

  Cut the bullspend. See revenue, not just reach. LinkedIn delivers the highest return on ad spend of major ad networks. Advertise on LinkedIn. Spend $250 on your first campaign and get a $250 credit. Go to LinkedIn.com/campaign. Terms and conditions apply.

• 1:00Speaker 02

  There's been a lot of misinformation about AI.

• 1:03Marina Mogilko?

  This is Andrew. He co-founded Google Brain and Coursera. His machine learning course has reached millions of learners, and he is one of the most influential voices in AI today.

• 1:13Speaker 02

  So a handful of leading AI companies have been very loud voices, fear mongering around AI to try to get regulations passed. This drumbeat of fear-based messaging has skewed society's perception to be really negative on AI.

• 1:26Marina Mogilko?

  People talk to me about data centers and job loss.

• 1:30Speaker 02

  Maybe AI could do 30, 40% of many jobs. And what that means is, while that 60% that the human does has become even more valuable.

• 1:38Marina Mogilko?

  What about loss of human control over AI?

• 1:42Speaker 02

  I think about something else that we can't control.

• 1:46Marina Mogilko?

  I think you're one of the voices in AI who comes with a huge background in machine learning and teaching AI, and also you're a positive voice. Because this is something that I've been seeing, especially this summer, how paralyzed the society has become, especially on social media, when I'm posting about AI and people talk to me about data centers and job loss. Why do you think this wave started recently? What do you think the causes are?

• 2:13Speaker 02

  There's been a lot of misinformation about AI. And the root cause of a lot of this is an unfortunate attempt that started two, three years ago of, I think, PR and record sheet capture. It turns out that the most, one of the most valuable things in AI right now is the giant AI models, giant large language models that some companies have trained. But if you spend billions of dollars training a model, it's really inconvenient if someone else trains a model and wants to give it to anyone in the world to use for free. So a handful of leading AI companies, I think, as you know, have been very loud voices, fear mongering around AI to try to get regulations passed to create an unfair playing field that favors incumbents

• 2:55Speaker 02

  so that we all have to pay a high toll for use of AI whilst timing the other teams, be it researchers or other companies that want to just give away open way to open source models that anyone could use much cheaper. Unfortunately, fear mongering works when you go and say AI is like nuclear weapons, which is an analogy that has no basis in fact. What do they have to even do with each other? Or when you go around and cherry pick cases of AI, you know, making a misstep and making it much bigger than it is. Or even spread misinformation about how AI uses data centers uses a lot more water than the actual reality. This drumbeat of fear-based messaging has skewed society's perception to be really negative on AI,

• 3:40Speaker 02

  which is unfortunate because this is slowing down American adoption in AI. This is making America less competitive. And unless we get the truth about AI out there, which is that it's fantastic benefit with some problems, but not nearly the degree to which they're blown up to be, it will hurt individuals.

• 3:58Marina Mogilko?

  I'm going to read out some of the problems that people are highlighting: job loss and inequality. What do you think?

• 4:04Speaker 02

  The job apocalypse, a jobpocalypse. This idea that AI will take over 50% of jobs, people will be out of work, rioting in the streets. That's just not going to happen. With every wave of technology, including AI, the skills we need to do great work shifts. And so AI is changing job professions. But boy, I wish AI were, AI just doesn't work well enough. I know that a handful of businesses want to hype up AI to say, we have superintelligence, or we have artificial general intelligence, or whatever, and can do all the stuff that humans do. I wish AI worked better. We're just not good enough to make AI do everything a human does. And if you look at the analysis of jobs, economists, like my friend Eric Brynoffson at Stanford,

• 4:47Speaker 02

  Andy McCarthy at MIT, economists have analyzed many people's jobs and by breaking it down into individual tasks. And maybe AI could do, you know, 30, 40% of many jobs. And what that means is, while that 60% that the human does has become even more valuable because it's called an economic complement, so the 30, 40% is now cheaper. And so what will happen is, people that use AI, maybe people that use AI will replace people that don't use AI. But AI is not in a position for the vast majority of jobs to replace people. Of all the different professions, the one that's most affected by AI now is software engineering because AI is actually fantastic at writing code.

• 5:32Speaker 02

  And what we see is that the number of job openings in software engineering is up, contrary to what, you know, the doom fear mongers would say, right? AI is not actually able to replace software engineers. And all the good software engineers I know are busier than ever. Now, the flip side of it is, if someone still write code like this 2022, before ChatGPT, they're in trouble. They need new skills. Like, don't do stuff that 30, 40% of AI can automate. You've got to start doing that, let AI do that. But then gain your skills to do the other 60, 70% that AI cannot do.

• 6:07Marina Mogilko?

  What would your advice be to new graduates? Because I talked to Eric on this podcast, and he was talking about that there is not really a lot of impact on the job market, except for, I think he mentioned, people from 18 to 25 who just graduated. What would be your advice to those people who don't have the expertise maybe to strategize in their job yet? They can only do manual work that AI can do as well.

• 6:31Speaker 02

  So one real challenge for fresh college grads is that the university system is slow to adapt. And so, you know, I love academia. I think we should all support academia and universities. And when AI comes and transforms the way software is written, universities often take like a year or two for the faculty to master skills, then create new courses, get curriculum committee approval, whatever, get the faculty senate to vote. It just takes years. And that speed of change in academia is very poorly matched the speed of change in AI. So sadly, many universities are still teaching students to be ready for the jobs of 2022, when we shouldn't even be teaching them

• 7:16Speaker 02

  for the jobs of 2026. We should be teaching them for the jobs of 2028 and beyond. And what this means is, the job openings are there. Tons of employers I know just can't find enough skill, you know, people at any level of seniority. But it turns out in my office right now, we have a lot of interns. There are current college students, fresh college grads. We also have one high school intern. And they're amazing and productive. But the key is they're all very AI native. They all use AI tools to do the things AI could do, but then also, you know, lean in to doing the things that humans can do that AI can't for a long time. So there's plenty worth for people to do. But so my advice to fresh college grads or the people currently in college is, by all means, work hard in classes,

• 8:01Speaker 02

  you know, get good grades, learn from the instructors. But to the extent that there are still additional skills the university has not yet adapted to teaching, then find other ways to learn online, be it from Coursera, or deep learning.ai, or Udemy, or other places where you can gain the more cutting-edge skills, especially AI skills, that universities have not yet worked in the curriculum. I want to say one other thing. It turns out, one, if you look at the skill map changes, one of the most important changes is, it's so much easier to build with AI than before. When something becomes much easier, a lot more people should do it. And so now, not only should professional software engineers build software with AI,

• 8:46Speaker 02

  it's becoming much easier for everyone to build with AI. And people that embrace that and do so will be more productive and will accomplish more, and I think have more fun than the ones that don't. And AI lets you build really fast. So for people that are not just software engineers, but, you know, marketers, recruiters, HR professionals, operations specialists, I think if they learn to build with AI, they're really just do much more whatever the job role is.

• 9:16Speaker 00

  The action's on the court. And as the official beer sponsor of the NBA, Michelob Ultra is getting fans closer to the game with a chance to win courtside seats, merch, and more. Visit michelobultra.com/courtside to enter. Michelob Ultra Courtside, 26 to 27. No purchase necessary. Open to U.S. residents 21 plus. Begins on October 1st, 2026 and ends on June 30th, 2027. Multiple entry periods. See official rules at michelobultra.com/courtside for free entry, entry deadlines, prizes, and details.

• 9:44Speaker 01

  Are your ad campaigns lighting up the dashboard? But not the pipeline. That's bull spend. And marketers are calling it out in. Dashboard confessions.

• 9:53Speaker 00

  My boss asked for results, so I opened my dashboard for the only positive sounding metric I had. Impressions.

• 10:00Speaker 01

  Cut the bull spend. See revenue, not just reach. LinkedIn delivers the highest return on ad spend of major ad networks. Advertise on LinkedIn. Spend $250 on your first campaign and get a $250 credit. Go to LinkedIn.com/campaign. Terms and conditions apply.

• 10:14Marina Mogilko?

  How do you, by the way, measure the increase in productivity when you deploy AI? Do you have like a KPI in your company?

• 10:22Speaker 02

  I wish it was a simple answer. I find that the business outcome of AI is more a function of the business than a function of the AI. For for some, it may be increased, you know, customer growth and retention, or maybe a faster to serve customers, or be increased accuracy in some tasks. So the KPIs tend to be related to the business rather than the AI.

• 10:43Marina Mogilko?

  So you can't like directly measure just AI? Because it's it's an interesting thing to do because we've been deploying AI actively in my company. And I think for me, as a media company, it's probably the amount of views, the output. It's just interesting how, yeah, it's just interesting how different people measure, even revenue, like if you're becoming more effective with how you make money.

• 11:01Speaker 02

  Actually, say more. How are you using AI in your business?

• 11:03Marina Mogilko?

  Oh, my God. I have the, so first of all, we have Claude for all of us. And we have certain projects for every social media that we're on. So for example, for this podcast, we have a project that's called Guests, and it knows all the analytics from previous guests. And it has certain criteria on which we rank every single person who comes to the podcast, whether he's he or she is cited, whether they have a certain opinion on AI, whether they've been active with AI in their company, or if they're a recent founder in AI. So it gives them different weights, and it comes up with a grade based out of 40. 40 meaning tier one, 30 meaning tier three, et cetera. And then we have another one that analyzes every single podcast and gives me tips on how to ask questions.

• 11:47Marina Mogilko?

  Same for Instagram, same for LinkedIn. It has my tone of voice, personal dossier, my business strategy. So it, whenever it writes something, it knows all the facts about me, how I sound. Every social media is run by a person. So a person makes a strategic call. And by the way, if you can give me feedback on this, if I can improve. So what I'm working on right now is closing the loop because sometimes they send me a text. And I'm like, oh, we need to change this, this and that. But that happens in a chat, in Telegram. And we have this feedback. We we have a bot that scans all of our chats. But I really want AI to be able to learn continuously from this feedback to just know my taste better.

• 12:26Speaker 02

  There's one thing I see a lot in AI, which is, it turns out for AI's data scientists or AI's brainstorming partner, it often comes up with, you know, one or two good ideas, two or three mediocre ones, and like, you know, four atrocious ones. And sometimes you wonder, how could my AI have thought, you know, like that could even be a plausible idea? And to me, this relates to the jobpocalypse point of view, which is that for a long time, humans, you, me, everyone watching this, will have a significant context advantage over AI, which is that you know something that's incredibly obvious to you that, you know, that was an awful idea, but the AI did not. And it turns out that one of the reasons why AI will not replace our jobs or whatever, a lot of people say it anytime soon,

• 13:10Speaker 02

  is because humans have a massive context advantage compared to AI. We know so much that, you know, from years of experience that we talked to customers, we saw the funny facial expression that told us, ah, they don't like this. Or we talked to business, or, you know, our manager said, hey, blah, blah, I really care about this. And so it turns out that almost all humans, what maybe all humans, just know a lot of stuff that the plumbing does not exist. And I don't think it exists for the foreseeable future for AI to get. I know sometimes people talk about the importance of human judgment or human taste. And sometimes you wonder, all right, what is taste? Is this fuzzy thing? But to me, the technical thing that underlies why humans have better judgment and better taste than AI

• 13:54Speaker 02

  is this context advantage. And because this is a long term advantage, like no one's going to solve this, you know, in a few years. This is why we just need a lot more humans with that judgment and taste to keep on complimenting the AI.

• 14:07Marina Mogilko?

  And doesn't this make education even more important? Because education gives us context. This is another another thing I'm hearing about AI, like you won't need education because all the information is at your fingertips. You just ask ChatGPT. But when you say context and taste, for me, that's years of acquiring knowledge and learning from the best and seeing how they perform versus just asking a chat.

• 14:28Speaker 02

  I'm going to say something that may be controversial. I don't have said this publicly, but I think it's true, which is frankly, AI models are terrible for learning. I know people think AI is AI is wonderful at getting things done. Use it all the time, love it. But all the data that's coming out is that when, say, college students use AI, we know this. It's just a study is now back up as well. So we also have numbers, but the data is very clear. Students score higher on homeworks when they use AI. Yay, higher homework scores. But retention, their long term performance is much worse because the AI do the work for them. More and more studies are coming out to back this up now

• 15:11Speaker 02

  that I think people think, oh. It turns out, you know, I think Wikipedia is a wonderful tool. It has tons of facts. A web search is a wonderful tool. It has tons of facts. But it turns out that when you ask AI to do work for you, you are cognitive offloading to AI, which is great because that's how society moves forward and gets work done. But human retention is much worse. It's just so clear that LMS, as they are most commonly used, are terrible for learning. I'm not saying there's no way to use it in a way that is good for learning. I think there are ways to use it good for learning. But even for myself, there's so many things I've asked AI model over the last, you know, six months or whatever. Like, I don't know. Building some project, how does this front end backend component work? Whatever. Give me the answer, get the job done.

• 15:56Speaker 02

  It was fantastic. But six months later, I don't remember the answer when I need to redo that front end backend component. I asked AI again. So data is really clear. We should stop thinking of AI as helpful for learning. At least the vast majority of ways that the vast majority of people are using AI models today is absolutely terrible for learning.

• 16:17Marina Mogilko?

  But you're building a company helping solve that, right? Because the one one to one tutoring with AI is that where you just announced with a hundred million investment from Coursera.

• 16:26Speaker 02

  Yes, so I'm excited about leading a new organization called Learned Vector that is focused on building new learning experiences that is much more one to one than one to many. So, you know, 15 years ago, I was privileged to participate in the online courses movement that I think changed the way a lot of people learn. But that was and still remains largely a one to many experience where everyone, you know, kind of watches the same video, which is actually okay, it actually works well. But the technology now exists to create much more personalized, customized, one to one experiences. And so our team is working hard on that. I think we'll have a lot more to show by early next year. When think about human skill development,

• 17:08Speaker 02

  I feel like because AI has so heavily impacted software engineering, what we see happening in the job market for software engineering is a harbinger or is a forerunner of what we'll see in other disciplines as well. And in software engineering, people need to learn new skills. But when they do, they are thriving and creating more value and frankly, getting raises and doing even more exciting projects. And what I'm seeing the early signs of in other disciplines as well, for example, in software engineering, you know, most developers, like front end backend developers, have now become full stack developers. Because of AI help, you could take on broader scope. I'm seeing early signs of this in other disciplines as well, where, for example, someone that in marketing,

• 17:49Speaker 02

  that did marketing coordination, coordinating marketing campaigns with AI help, they can now become more of a full cycle marketer and take on a broader scope. And I'm seeing, you know, frankly, sources and recruiting become more full cycle, do end to end recruiting. So now the good news and bad news is for people to step up to these broader roles, you do need to learn AI skills. But also, it's not just learning AI. You also need to learn these other skills, like how do you do the other part of marketing of recruiting or software engineering or AI engineering? So I think this actually creates a heavy need, a big need for people to gain new skills. But when they do, which is both AI skills, but also disciplinary skills, then they can do much more, hopefully have more fun, work on more exciting projects, hopefully get paid more as well.

• 18:34Speaker 02

  And one reason I kind of worry about the fear mongering is, I got an email from someone that was about to enter college. And, you know, he emailed me saying, hey, Andrew, taking online courses, but I'm really struggling with what I should major in college because in four years, won't AI do all this? And everything I learn will be obsolete? And the answer is no, of course it won't all be obsolete. But when we keep on pushing these fear messages.

• 18:59Speaker 02

  We make people wonder if they will even be relevant. And it makes people not lean in to gain these skills. They'll put them in a much better position. So I see very clearly that these fear mongering messages are distorting how many people, including, you know, high school students, college students, fresh grads, think about the economy. And frankly, making people give up is one of the worst things we've been doing in this era when people that lean in will thrive.

• 19:27Marina Mogilko?

  Andrew has taught over eight million people AI. He started teaching machine learning online back in two thousand and eleven, years before the current AI boom. Now, one of the companies he's building is focused on AI agents. From the way that it sounds, it can still feel way too technical. So I put together a step by step guide to building your first AI agent with no coding required. It walks you through what to automate, how to set it up, and how to make it actually useful. It is in my newsletter this week. The newsletter is called Future Proof. It's free. Link is in the description. What would you reply back to that email that somebody sent to you? What would you say is the best major to study now to thrive in AI era? Do you think it's like going deep into a niche or just broader computer science

• 20:11Marina Mogilko?

  so that you can acquire AI skills really fast?

• 20:14Speaker 02

  You know, I don't know what's the best major. There are awful lot of great majors. It's like, um, I kind of feel like what's the best job in the world is like, what's the best major in the world?

• 20:22Marina Mogilko?

  Something that you love, right?

• 20:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, my daughter wants to be an astronaut. I don't know if she can major in becoming an astronaut. I have to think about that. When she get older, she may change her mind. I see so many opportunities across, across so many job roles. It all seems very exciting to me. But do learn AI, do learn to build with AI. The other thing that my team's been working on the AI engineering skills map to try to map out, you know, the most important skills for AI engineering. One thing that I felt intuitively, but I was surprised to see it show up in the data, was that a lot more job descriptions seem to be saying that they want people that demonstrate a very high sense of agency. Because it turns out with AI, there are a lot more opportunities for individuals to spot problems and go build something or do something to go solve it. So I think we're really evolving what we've long been evolving,

• 21:09Speaker 02

  but we're accelerating past the era where people sit around and wait for their boss to tell them what to do.

• 21:14Marina Mogilko?

  This is what I've been feeling a lot, especially when we started doing remote work. I want people to be entrepreneurs within their niche. Like if you're helping me with LinkedIn, you're an entrepreneur there. You can hire more contractors, you can deploy different tools. You make the strategic decision whether this topic is good or not, shall we proceed with it? I really think, and tell me if you agree with me, we're moving into that job market where everyone is kind of independent in their workplace.

• 21:39Speaker 02

  I think people will have much more autonomy and creativity. So I agree with that. And I'd even go one step further, which is I talked to a lot of people, engineers and others in large companies that tell me that their manager tells them to stay in their swim lane. They'll say, oh, I have this creative idea, but the manager says, no, I need you to focus on this one thing. Frankly, often because their manager's career depends on it. But I feel like the number of opportunities for people to spot things outside their swim lane, and then in a responsible way, explore how to get it done. That feels very exciting to me. And I think that in the future, the businesses that set up a culture that encourage people to learn AI, build fast, responsibly,

• 22:21Speaker 02

  talk to customers, would drive a lot more value than the more hierarchical silo organizations.

• 22:27Marina Mogilko?

  Yeah, it starts with hiring the right people and then nurturing this in your organization. When you say learn how to use AI and become proficient with AI, can you give me some benchmarks? Like of a person who's like, say marketer, knowledge worker, advanced with AI? What are you looking for when you're interviewing this person?

• 22:44Speaker 02

  I'm pretty sure my team's ahead of the curve. All of my marketers know how to code. So as part of how I interview marketers, we ask them what they've built and if they have not built any software.

• 22:55Marina Mogilko?

  If it's a dashboard, is it good or bad? Like, is it too basic or?

• 22:58Speaker 02

  A dashboard, again, my team's pretty, you know, somewhat ahead of the curve.

• 23:02Marina Mogilko?

  That was good to hear like that.

• 23:04Speaker 02

  All of my marketers have built much more sophisticated things in that.

• 23:06Marina Mogilko?

  Like what?

• 23:07Speaker 02

  Oh, I feel like, um, I don't know. The other day, one of our, someone in the marketing team was talking about the tools that he had built to, uh, when he's considering writing an article on something. It will crawl the web, find related work, has a custom desktop app. Actually built a desktop app that runs on his Mac to highlight related articles for him. Then you can chat to the whole system, navigate, you know, the thing he's writing as well as the related work. And he had a large dashboard for trawling the internet to highlight to him exciting things that are popping up. Now, even on my team, I think that marketers is ahead of the curve.

• 23:43Marina Mogilko?

  But that's, that's great to hear. Any other interesting use cases that will inspire people to build something similar?

• 23:50Speaker 02

  Let's see, maybe, uh, my finance team uses AI extensively. So I think, uh, my, um, one of my CFOs realized that, you know, her team was spending hours every week clicking through documents, open this, copy page's number here. And so she started building automation scripts that runs on a routine that automatically opens files, checks what's in there, checks the consistency, highlights her team if there's something, uh, if there's something they need to be paying attention to of a new document that showed up. So I find that rather than waiting around for an engineer to do the work for them, the team's ability to, to kind of, uh, not just build dashboards, but build kind of a data management infrastructures.

• 24:35Speaker 02

  They can ingest data, alert them if something is happening.

• 24:37Marina Mogilko?

  Yeah.

• 24:38Speaker 02

  I think my finance and marketing teams are doing that. Oh, my recruiting team, um, well, we actually have recruiting engineers, which are really professional engineers that sit in a recruiting team that are building very sophisticated tools for recruiting. And this is actually the other trend. I think marketers, recruiters, HR professionals, people should all learn AI. But the other thing is when you take an engineer and embed them in these teams, then that further accelerates what you can do.

• 25:02Marina Mogilko?

  We do the same. We, we start with something basic, build it ourselves, then we hit the wall and engineer comes in, we build it further.

• 25:09Speaker 02

  Frankly, when you look at not just software engineers, but recruiting engineers, marketing engineers, HR engineers, I think there's so much valuable engineering work that can now be done. I'm just, you know, not worried about running out of, frankly, all my friends were so busy. We think, boy, how could we run out of engineering jobs?

• 25:25Marina Mogilko?

  Yeah, yeah, there are so many cool ideas you can experiment on. But you touched upon something that is actually one of the fears. When, when we talk about like financial information, how much you're giving to AI? So I gave my perplexity permission to scan my fidelity account so it can track my portfolio, tell me when to rebalance. It doesn't do anything on my behalf, but it has access. Do you think there is any problem with that?

• 25:47Speaker 02

  This is complicated. I think AI privacy is a complex area. And it depends a lot on the company that you are sharing your data with. So for example, I trust all the hyperscalers to really a hundred percent, you know, follow their terms of service and to do what they say. My personal opinion, not, not giving legal business advice, but I'd be shocked if, you know, the largest hyperscalers publish a terms of service with some privacy notice and if they breach that, because that'd be not the culture. It'd be so damaging of the long-term business model. Now that's on the largest hyperscaler side. If you look at AI company's side, there's been, you know, at least one company that I won't name that seems to occasionally change the terms of service.

• 26:30Speaker 02

  And if you're using it, you go to the website, so you pop up, hey, we changed the terms of service to retain your data or train your data. And if you aren't paying attention and click the wrong button, then they suddenly gave themselves permission to access your data in a way that I'm not that comfortable with. I feel like I handle, you know, some sensitive information. So then I tend to be very careful with the businesses that I just don't feel their culture and their DNA and frankly, the long-term business model is as tied to protecting individual user privacy than the hyperscalers. And I see businesses, you know, get this as well. For example, one of my team's AI aspire, we work with very large corporations,

• 27:11Speaker 02

  including banks with incredibly sensitive financial data. And as you can imagine, AI aspire and our clients do not willingly share, you know, really sensitive, often a material non-public information, right? NMPI with frontier, with frontier labs without really careful thinking about the guardrails in privacy. So I think it's complicated.

• 27:36Marina Mogilko?

  So trusting hyperscale, but also another thing that you can do, you can download an open source model and just run it on your computer and then it just stays on your computer, right?

• 27:45Speaker 02

  Yes, I think, yes. It turns out a lot of banks will actually run the things in, you know, virtual private call or on-prem. So they, so it never even leaves their control. But I think for individuals, it's true, for the really sensitive things, I sometimes run a local model. And it's been interesting with the open way models. So the latest open way models are approaching frontier capability and that are, you know, actually small enough. They're actually really good models now that you can run on.

• 28:11Marina Mogilko?

  Yeah, the one from Meta, right? The recent one?

• 28:13Speaker 02

  Oh, yes, Meta uses a good model. And I'm thinking also the latest version of Quen is also very good. But I think frankly, these models change every other week. So I think the best practice is to not get stuck on one, but to keep on trying new models.

• 28:25Marina Mogilko?

  So basically, when there is a situation that you don't trust anyone, you run a local model and this is how you keep your data safe?

• 28:32Speaker 02

  I do trust the hyperscalers, but sometimes for, you know, literally NMPI, material non-public information, that I won't even send to, I just can't even send that to the cloud. So that, uh, I'll either do it manually without AI help or if I really need to use AI, then, you know, really carefully only use a local model.

• 28:51Marina Mogilko?

  Interesting. Okay, this is, this is, this is an interesting one. Okay, what about loss of human control over AI? Cause I've talked to, I talked to Yashua Benja, who is very negative when it comes to open, free AI without any regulation. And he painted me some very scary pictures of AI taking over control because we, basically the, the whole scenario is we can't control something that's smarter than us. And if AI gets smarter and smarter, where, where do we end up? What do you think about that?

• 29:24Speaker 02

  I think about something else that we can't control, which is airplanes. No one can build an airplane that you can fly perfectly. Winds will buffet it around. And then candidly, in the early days of developing airplanes, some airplanes crashed and people died and it was tragic and awful. But through the early lessons learned, we then learned to control airplanes better and better. So that today, you know, we can mostly get in an airplane and not fear too much for lies. And it's really like that too with AI. No one can perfectly control AI because it generates tokens or outputs a little bit random. So we don't really know what exactly it'll do. But as we run them and you know, there's been a small number of mishaps, which is unfortunate.

• 30:07Speaker 02

  And some number of mishaps have done some real damage. But the way we engineer almost any system from an airplane to electric circuits to now AI is carefully grow their capabilities so that we can have a controlled environment in which to measure what's wrong and then to shape it to make sure we can control it well enough that it behaves responsibly and safely. And to this day, we can't perfectly control any airplane and we will never perfectly control AI either. But I think we are certainly controlling them well enough that this loss of control doesn't feel like science.

• 30:44Marina Mogilko?

  Stuff like stuff. Yeah, yeah. What about deep fakes?

• 30:48Speaker 02

  Deep fakes are a problem. Well, one of the most disgusting things I've ever seen or heard of is non-consensual intimate deep fake imagery. Or I'm really glad that, you know, US Congress has been moving to, right? Let's pass laws, get rid of that penalties for that. I'm just, I think there's some really problematic uses of AI that we should outlaw, heavily penalize. Let's just get rid of that.

• 31:10Marina Mogilko?

  What do you think about children and social connection when it comes to AI with kids using more of AI? Cause we've seen social media, how, you know, there are people who are dumb scrolling all day. And my daughter, who is five years old now, whenever I don't have an answer, he's like, ask ChatGPT. And like, who's that person? I'm like, I don't know. Ask ChatGPT and like she thinks ChatGPT knows everything. What would you say about, you know, kids' future with AI?

• 31:39Speaker 02

  First, I think kids have a bright future. It's such an exciting time to be a child to grow up in this environment with tools that none of us ever had before. At the same time, we're seeing that social media, um, I think social media has probably been blamed a bit more than it deserves, but it does deserve blame, uh, has kind of not been great for kids. I actually worry a lot about, it's a wonderful tool, but AI damaging learning is something I worry a lot about. So it turns out, um, I have a five year old and a seven year old. When I teach them math, they're so young enough that I can basically, you know, not let them use a calculator, can say, how do you multiply these numbers? And I don't give them a calculator and practice that with them.

• 32:20Speaker 02

  But as they're a little bit older, I worry a lot about students using cognitive offloading to AI in a way that damages the long-term learning retention. But in the same time, oh, I should build an app. I did not like any of the, you know, free online learning to type types of things. So I actually built my own to have my daughter learn to type. And I'm hoping that she's actually getting pretty decent now for a seven year old.

• 32:45Marina Mogilko?

  Oh, so she's savvy, right?

• 32:46Speaker 02

  Oh yeah, she actually typed all the lowercase letters. She's still a bit, you know, not, her shift uppercase letter is a little bit not quite there. But I think that this unlocks, you know, responsible adult supervised use of online tools. And I think it's really tricky, you know? I think, um, adult supervised use of digital tools seems like a great thing for kids, but too many adults don't have time to supervise the use of the tools. And then the incentives of, say, social media, right, to do funny things.

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• 34:17Marina Mogilko?

  Yeah, has to be the right incentive when it comes to AI. Okay, you mentioned, we, we talked about the fears. We talked about how you can improve your work with AI. Can you name some of the biggest opportunities in AI in two thousand twenty-six for people who want to build?

• 34:32Speaker 02

  For an individual that wants to build, I don't think it's one size fits all. But because the cost of building has plummeted, um, I encourage people to learn AI, build fast and talk to customers. I find myself building things, I don't know, every week, every weekend, because I or someone on our team will have some problem and I have some idea for building some AI thing to automate it. Last weekend, I had, really, I was using a frontier model to analyze a lot of our key business metrics because I didn't have time to do it myself. But it was kind of measuring, you know, decentralized key business metrics.

• 35:14Speaker 02

  And I didn't have time to go find a data scientist to go work me on it. So I just did a variety of frontier models, being really careful on their data retention policies. I did not use models with data retention policies that I don't like, uh, in order to analyze data. But, and then I find that, um, what's happened with AI is the cost of building has plummeted. And so the challenge is shifting to deciding what to build, which I was calling, which I've been calling the product management bottleneck. And so people, you know, founders, engineers, product managers that can talk to customers, get a sense for the taste of judgment on what to build and then build with AI and iterate quickly. I think that's just a ton of exciting things to do.

• 35:55Marina Mogilko?

  And you've been starting so many companies. You're like, when I looked at your portfolio, do you think for beginners, when you said you built something during the weekend, how do you decide what to focus on? Or you can pursue multiple ideas because of AI now and you can just be, you know, playing in different companies at the same time?

• 36:11Speaker 02

  It turns out, building a company is still really, really hard. And so there's a lot to be said for a single threaded leadership or someone that's fully focused on just one thing. I find that, you know, over a weekend, I can often build an own wrapper, build a simple application. But I wish it was that easy to build a large company. I find that building something meaningful often takes either real technical depth and or deep customer insight and integration with customers. And yes, we can now, you know, use AI to code something in a few hours, but that's a small piece of the puzzle. So spending time understanding the technical complexity and building the really complex software, that takes us like months, you know, maybe years.

• 36:54Speaker 02

  Or having that deep customer insight to decide what to build, that also just takes a lot. Talking to people, reading facial expressions, surveys, doing that over and over until we figure out what to build. And so I think sometimes there's a lot of value to sampling widely, but then having that focus for an individual to go really deep in a couple of sectors, that, that still seems important for building a business.

• 37:15Marina Mogilko?

  My last question, I know it's, we don't have much time, but I wanted to ask you about AGI, just because people use this word so much. And some people say, I think Johnson Huang said, we already reached AGI. You said it's decades away. What's the one criteria when you're going to say we reached AGI?

• 37:32Speaker 02

  So different people say we reach AGI at different times because of different definitions of AGI. The definition I'm most familiar with is AI that could do any intellectual task that a human can. But so the human brain can take, say, five years to study and do a PhD thesis. And so can AI write a PhD thesis? Or a human can learn to drive a truck through a dense rainforest with, you know, tens of minutes of practice. So when can AI do that to drive new environment with tens of minutes of practice? It feels like there's a long list of these things that AI cannot do for what feels to me decades. I hope it's only decades, maybe it will turn out to be longer.

• 38:13Speaker 02

  So that's what I think for that definition of AI or AGI, AGI is still very far away. But it turns out because of, you know, economic incentives, I think OpenAI and Microsoft had an agreement. There's actually been renegotiated now, so that's gone away. But OpenAI had the economic incentive to try to declare reaching AGI earlier. And so it turns out that if you come up with other definitions of AI, depending on how far you lower the bar, then you could totally have reached AGI, you know, already, or even thirty years ago, depending on how you wanted to find it.

• 38:45Marina Mogilko?

  Yeah, true. Andrew, thank you so much for this positive conversation, very applicable. I like when you watch something and then you go and you measure yourself against what people are doing with AI, look at your process and maybe expand it. So thank you so much for showing what your team is doing and thank you for your insights.

• 39:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think given the huge benefits of AI to come, I hope whoever's watching this is motivated to really go learn AI, apply it, um, and, and even.

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