#211: Influencing Human Behavior - US Army Special Operations Psychological Operations and Civil Affairs Colonels Steve Santucci, Jeff Uherka & Bob Cusick

The battlefield is more than guns, aircraft, ships and vehicles. Sometimes the most important weapon is an adversary’s perception. Since inception, US Army Special Forces have been central to shaping human behavior and enemy perspective; still the most important factors in military decision making. The objective isn’t always to change what someone believes. Sometimes we only need to change what they do, where they go, or the decision they make long enough to create an advantage. That’s the battlefield of Psychological Operations and Civil Affairs. From the John F. Kennedy Special Warfare Museum https://specialwarfaremuseum.org/ at Fort Bragg, I sat down with Colonel Steve Santucci, Colonel Jeff Uherka, and Colonel Bob Cusick to go inside two of the most misunderstood capabilities in Army Special Operations and examine how Psychological Operations https://www.goarmy.com/careers-and-jobs/specialty-careers/special-ops/psychological-operations and Civil Affairs https://www.goarmy.com/careers-and-jobs/specialty-careers/special-ops/civil-affairs are shaping today’s battlefield. For these units, the mission is about precision influence. Identify the decision maker. Understand how they think. Force a decision. Create time and space. Then give commanders an opportunity to exploit it. Artificial intelligence, large language models, cyber capabilities, drones, and the digital information environment are creating new ways to understand and influence an audience. But on a battlefield where communications can be degraded and the electromagnetic spectrum contested, some of the answers may come from the past. Information warfare is also being consolidated under Army Special Operations, and the Army is building a more unified approach to how it trains and employs information professionals across the force. On today’s battlefield, destroying the enemy may not always be the most powerful option. If we can influence what they see, shape what they understand, and change the decisions they make, we may never have to fire a shot. Highlights: 00:00 - Introduction 02:59 - Defining PSYOPs and Civil Affairs Missions 07:50 - Behavior vs. Mindset 10:57 - Delivery Mechanisms 13:25 - Language and Culture 17:25 - Recruitment 21:07 - Qualification Course Pipelines 27:18 - Decentralization to Special Forces Groups 31:31 - Consolidation of Army Information Operations 39:53 - Future Operating Capabilities 44:58 - Daily Habits Quotes" “At the end of the day, it's about providing influence and deception’s word of commanders, to provide them time, space, and advantage on the battlefield.”“Can we change their mind just for a couple minutes, to divert, to deceive, to create opportunity for blue forces.”“Influence the influencers, and through an indigenous approach, they are able to change the minds of the population for our mutual objectives.”“We have to pull back on the history machine and relearn the things that we've forgotten about over the years.”“Technology can't replace the human to human eye to eye contact to influence a key leader.”“They don't want us to do anything other than offer ideas and solutions that they just hadn't considered.”“The Army wants more.”“He wants precision influence. He wants us to hit that decision maker.”“Sometimes what is old is new again.”“But at the end of the day, we all know we just we have to listen.”“I think as a foundation for a good soldier, which builds a team, which builds a company, a battalion, and a brigade.”“Leaders need time to think. Leaders need time to prepare for coaching. Leaders need time to understand what's going on around them, so they can issue clear, sound guidance.”“Leaders have to be present.”“It's a capability that can be employed across the force, and it's only better when it works in harmony.” Follow the Jedburgh Podcast https://www.instagram.com/jedburghpodcast/ and the Green Beret Foundation https://www.instagram.com/greenberetfoundation/ on social media. Listen on your favorite podcast platform https://pod.link/1558608802, read on our website https://greenberetfoundation.org/the-jedburgh-podcast/, and watch the full video version on YouTube https://www.youtube.com/@jedburghpodcast as we show why America must continue to lead from the front, no matter the challenge.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:02Fran Racioppi?

  The battlefield is more than guns, aircraft, ships, and vehicles. Sometimes, the most important weapon is an adversary's perception. Since inception, US Army Special Forces have been central to shaping human behavior and enemy perspective. Still, the most important factors is military decision-making. The objective isn't always to change what someone believes. Sometimes, we only need to change what they do, where they go, or the decision they make long enough to create an advantage. That's the battlefield of psychological operations and civil affairs. From the John F. Kennedy Special Warfare Museum at Fort Bragg, I sat down with Colonel Steve Santucci, Colonel Jeff Yurka, and Colonel Bob Cusick to go inside two of the most misunderstood

• 0:44Fran Racioppi?

  capabilities in Army Special Operations and examine how PSYOP and civil affairs are shaping today's battlefield. For these units, the mission is about precision influence. Identify the decision-maker, understand how they think, force a decision, create time and space, then give commanders an opportunity to exploit it. Artificial intelligence, large language models, cyber capabilities, drones, and the digital information environment are creating new ways to understand and influence an audience. But on a battlefield where communications can be degraded and the electromagnetic spectrum is contested, some of the answers may come from the past. Information warfare is also being consolidated under Army Special Operations, and the Army

• 1:27Fran Racioppi?

  is building a more unified approach to how it trains and employs information professionals across the force. On today's battlefield, destroying the enemy may not always be the most powerful option. If we can influence what they see, shape what they understand, and change the decisions they make, we may never have to fire a shot. Follow the Jedburgh Podcast and the Green Beret Foundation on social media. Listen on your favorite podcast platform, read on our website, and watch the full video version on YouTube as we show you why America must continue to lead from the front, no matter the challenge.

• 2:01Fran Racioppi?

  Gentlemen, welcome to the Jedburgh Podcast. I'm in a flock of birds over here with a whole bunch of Colonels. Colonel Santucci, Colonel Yurka, Colonel Cusick, thank you so much for taking some time to sit down and talk to me. This is exciting because we have not spent any time really focused on PSYOP and civil affairs. And I think that that is a capability that exists within the Army Special Operations Forces units that is impactful, it's important, and it is creating effects on the battlefield. And we tend to focus too much, I would say, at times on the 18th Series guys within the

• 2:46Fran Racioppi?

  formation. So when we were putting this series together, this was a really important part and a story that we wanted to tell. So we're going to talk all things civil affairs and PSYOP.

• 2:58Speaker 01

  Awesome. Look forward to it.

• 2:59Fran Racioppi?

  We got to start a little bit with talking about where the organizations have come from, what their missions are, and then where they're going because there's been some change in how we conduct civil affairs and PSYOP operations and psychological warfare. But before, it was the Special Warfare Center, it was the Psychological Warfare Center. This is where it all started. So in your own words, what is the mission of psychological warfare? We'll start with you.

• 3:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, so, gosh, there's so many. I mean, I have this conversation with Ferguson, General Ferguson and General Wirtham often. Between competition and crisis and the gray zone and the various customers from the General Purpose Force to the Joint Force and RSOF, the mission varies. It does. And I think that's where it gets lost sometimes when we talk about the capability. But at the end of the day, it's about providing influence and deception supportive commanders to provide them time, space, and advantage on the battlefield. And right now is an exciting time. I think we're coming off of some pretty high-profile operations that have maybe offered an insight to the entire, across the department on what it is that these capabilities can do to provide

• 4:15Speaker 01

  commanders these capabilities.

• 4:18Fran Racioppi?

  And for reference, you're in command of 4th Psychological Operations right now and about a year in.

• 4:25Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 4:26Fran Racioppi?

  Okay. And Colonel Cusick, you're on the way out as 8th Psychological Operations is deactivated. So you've got to look back on some time. And from your perspective, what have been some of those highlights over the last couple of years that have been critical to the advancement of psychological operations?

• 4:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, Fran, so I don't know if you know my background, but I grew up in SF guy 3rd Group, commanded a battalion in 3rd Special Forces Group. And then General Braga, General Ferguson asked if I'd be willing to command a Psychological Operations Group. I'm doing that now. We're inactivating. Admittedly, we're just under a company's worth of people left. But the big changes that I saw was Colonel Santucci talks about behavior change, time, space, giving commanders decision advantage. I always started at the 100,000-foot level because I did not grow up in the PSYOP community. So for me, it was all about non-kinetic space. And PSYOP fills a critical void in that non-kinetic space, providing options to commanders, Army commanders and Joint Force commanders. What have we done over the last two years?

• 5:31Speaker 02

  Well, we've got an Information Warfare Center now owned by Colonel Santucci. That Information Warfare Center can provide options to commanders at SCAL from Fort Bragg, North Carolina. It simply gives commanders the ability to reach back into a pool of professionals that can do some of the things that Steve just said, the Advanced Influence Course. I've seen that. It started before I got into the seat, but we professionalized it. It's precision targeting. How do I change Fran's behavior? How do I get Fran to make a different decision today to change the way he's either thinking or behaving? So that's our Advanced Influence Course. And then Steve and I have had a lot of conversation lately about tools and equipment.

• 6:11Speaker 02

  I'll tell you, my biggest, not pet peeve Fran, but my biggest problem right now with psychological operations is that our equipment is not modern and it doesn't match our future operating capabilities. So we spent the last two years building a kit that has both AI on it. It's got the ability to quickly turn on products and generate material to use in some of those influence series campaigns that PSYOP are involved in. So for me, it always started at the 100,000-foot level. I did not grow up as a PSYOP-er like Steve did. But man, what a great capability. Now that I know it, I've been forced and told I own it, and I'm giving all that capability to Steve. Here in the next three months, really, Steve's going to own all the active PSYOP component

• 6:56Speaker 02

  capability.

• 6:57Fran Racioppi?

  I want to circle back in a second on behavior because both PSYOP and civil affairs are about behavior. But first, I want to talk, second, about civil affairs. And so you're fresh into the seat in command of 95th Civil Affairs. And so what is the mission of civil affairs?

• 7:17Speaker 03

  Yeah, thank you for having me. And in plain speak, the mission of 95th Civil Affairs is to understand targeted civil populations and then leverage those populations to support military objectives in a nutshell. So we're talking like security capabilities of the civilian networks that can now be employed, enable military operations. And so that's everything from like a resistance capability to a foreign internal defense capability to kind of combat a resistance.

• 7:49Fran Racioppi?

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• 8:21Fran Racioppi?

  How over the last, well, let's talk about behavior first. I'm going to ask you about that. So we've had, we've been very fortunate over the last couple of weeks to sit down with a senior leadership within Army Special Operations. And so we had yesterday with General Ferguson and CSM Waldo from the UCYSOC level, and then last week with your boss and the command team from 1st Special Operations Command. And we did touch on civil affairs and PSYOP and their role within the RSOF architecture. And this concept of behavior versus mindset, or changing your mind, or what I would call perspective, I think is important because if we go back and all of us are fairly experienced

• 9:06Fran Racioppi?

  and came up through the global war on terror, and so you had these units out there, and we always would talk about, we got to change their mind, we got to get them to like us. We could probably argue if that worked. Not. We have some dedicated adversaries who it doesn't matter. They're never gonna like us, but I think what we may have found over the years is that are we really trying to change their mind or influence their behavior for a set period of time? So that we can achieve an effect. How are you guys from your different perspectives thinking about the difference between the mindset and the perspective of a population who may or may not be adversarial to us versus influencing their behavior?

• 9:49Speaker 01

  I think the audience is probably the big thing that's being changed or being asked to change is that in the sense that it's not so much about targeting large populations anymore as it is precision influence in targeting decision makers to try and create an effect that gives us that advantage we talked about. I mean, there's obviously a time and place for populations as it relates to non-interference in the combat operations or demobilization or surrender type activities, or maybe even recruiting for an underground or some kind of illicit force, but what we're being asked to do is get into the minds and the the thinking process of the folks that are making decisions

• 10:29Speaker 01

  on the threat side and create those opportunities for our commanders so we could exploit that time and space we were continuing to talk about.

• 10:38Speaker 02

  That can be done through deception. That can be done through, I call it blunt force information. If you do this, that will happen. And then there's the subtle piece of it. What can you do over time to get somebody to change their mind or behavior? But to what you asked Fran, I think it's all about the time. Can we change their mind just for a couple of minutes? To divert, to deceive, to create opportunity for blue forces.

• 11:03Speaker 03

  And another indigenous approach to that is if you have a population that you want to influence or change their mind, who are the the key leaders within that population that you might share common objectives with? That you can get them to change the minds of that population for you. So you influence the influencers and through an indigenous approach, they are able to change the minds of the population for our for our mutual objectives.

• 11:28Fran Racioppi?

  What about the mechanisms that we use to do these things? I mean, we have over the last, I made the mistake yesterday of saying to General Ferguson that in the advancement of technology, it's not about it's not just dropping leaflets anymore. And he quickly corrected me and said that there's might be a time to drop leaflets. And I was like, damn it, you're right. There might be. But there's a lot of mechanisms that we can use to affect the population and each of your commands have these different mechanisms by which you seek to influence. So can you talk to what you can about what some of those mechanisms are and then how you're actually getting in front of the population to affect behavior?

• 12:13Speaker 01

  Well, you started with kind of what we're looking at now, which is going back in time. I mean, we've been looking very closely at high tech and low tech solutions for like the last 10 years. But as we look at the fights and the threats faced today, we're realizing we have to really look back at the no tech and the analog type delivery capabilities. And that's, it's going back to the stuff on the walls.

• 12:35Fran Racioppi?

  Yeah, right behind you.

• 12:36Speaker 01

  Bombs and missiles, it's leaflets, it's the things that we did in World War II. It's what the Ghost Army did. There's a time and place for the delivery through social media potentially or cyber conduits. I think we all realize that the future battlefields are going to be so degraded and the electromagnetic spectrum is going to be so contested. It's going to be really difficult to reach in with some of those exquisite delivery weapon systems. So we have to, we have to pull back on the, the history machine and relearn the things that we've forgotten about over the years.

• 13:09Fran Racioppi?

  Are we digging wells and building schools or?

• 13:13Speaker 03

  That's an interesting, so if we are digging wells and building schools, if it's a targeted population that fulfills our military objectives, we need to get to that population for a reason. But for us, we are using technology, the AI enabled technology to really understand the populace, but I think we're going to talk about it soon, but we're transforming a civil affairs team into a detachment model that allows greater access to the population. So we're, we're building teams that can be more, the future operating environment, be more dispersed and be able to create greater effects and engage more people because I agree with Steve saying you can't, technology can't replace the human to human eye to eye contact to influence a key leader.

• 13:56Fran Racioppi?

  How are you each incorporating language capabilities? So we, the language capability from in the 18 series roles is core task. So how are you incorporating the importance of language into each of the organizations?

• 14:13Speaker 03

  Yeah. So for, for us, language, I think it's similar to special forces. Absolutely important. Like I think the brigade historically takes pride in having the strongest language in the entire division. So we take pride in that because that language to influence others is crucial. So it is absolutely a basic standard, critical task.

• 14:33Speaker 02

  I mean, Steve hit a key point earlier, Fran, with the language. We have hired professionals that work for us from that region because you can't do psychological operations or behavior change or influence without having intimate knowledge of that target audience. So we have right now, I think it's four or five civilians from that region. Lebanon, Japan, South America, name your country. We've got five. It has surged as high as 20 professionals that can help us with that refinement of whatever we're trying to do. And because us sitting here in Fort Bragg, North Carolina, we can think we know everything about that population.

• 15:13Speaker 02

  We have people we can leverage either at the T-SOC, the GCC, or here at Fort Bragg a little bit that can help us refine that narrative. Hey, this is or is not going to work the minute you disseminate through all the means that Steve highlighted.

• 15:25Fran Racioppi?

  I would argue that there's probably, when we talk about cultural awareness and understanding who our target audience is, there's probably a lot of times, areas where your ability in psyop or civil affairs to understand the culture and sentiment of the local populace may even outweigh the importance when an SF team who deploys there because I mean, you know, as an SF team, by and large, with certainly there's exception, when we go to a foreign country, we're usually partnering with a like-minded force, whether that be a military force or a paramilitary force or someone else who shares, you know, our similar kind of

• 16:07Fran Racioppi?

  offensive mindset. And so yes, you need to understand language. Yes, you need to be culturally aware, but you know, at the end of the day, a warfighter is a warfighter. Regardless of where you're coming from, but when you start talking about having to influence the civilian population, having to influence people who who don't know necessarily who you are, don't even know they're being influenced, right? That comes down, you have to understand that culture.

• 16:32Speaker 01

  If I could add to that, I also, the most successful and influential dissemination mechanism is the partner. It is the resident. It is the person that we're working by with and through. I think there's some, there's a conversation to be had about the language aptitude and the responsibility for all of us. But it's the culture that really it boils down to and how, and understanding how they speak, how they walk and talk and how to use those influence agents to, as conduits to disseminate the message because that's when it really resonates.

• 17:02Speaker 02

  There's some pretty cool technological things we're doing though, Fran. Right now, we're using large language models from that region, from that target audience, backhauling them, running our series against them to give us some fidelity. If it's going to even remotely scratch the itch on what we're trying to do. So in the technological space, aside from analog, we're starting to look at companies and even vendors tools that where we can backhaul large language models from that village, from that city, from that, that country and test psyop against those large language models to give us some degree of fidelity. Is this going to work or not work? Once we deliver.

• 17:42Speaker 01

  And with some risk associated with it so that a commander acknowledges that, that this pre-test, if you will, has gone through. And it has a degree of risk associated with it as well as a degree of acceptability amongst the people we're trying to, to target.

• 17:56Fran Racioppi?

  I want to ask about the pipeline. I want to ask about the pipeline coming, coming in, right? So yesterday we had the SWIC command team here and where we talked about recruiting, the recruiting process, what they're looking for. Focused primarily in that conversation on the 18 series, about what does it mean to be a special operator? Or in the Army Special Operations Regiment when it comes to, you know, the character that we need them to display. But you have a defined recruiting process and assessment and selection process. So can we talk about each one of those and what you're looking for in candidates and then what that pipeline looks like to come in?

• 18:33Speaker 01

  Sure. And jump in, Bob.

• 18:35Speaker 02

  No, you go ahead. So just for context, Steve and I, and I think yourself now, like we are going out to assessment and selection as presidents of the board. So we certify that the board is appropriate. You'll hear this a lot interacting with our bosses, leaving talent on the cutting room floor. Just by having us in the room, there's probably a handful, four to five kids that otherwise would not have been selected that we simply say, let's give him a chance or her a chance. But go ahead, Steve.

• 19:02Speaker 01

  I wish I could say that it's one type of person that that comes into the regiment that's successful. I mean, having spent some time at SWIC, I could tell you that generally the folks that do the best do come from combat arms because they understand how maneuver works and how to, how to talk a tactical terminology to the people that we're generally working for. But then you look at folks like field artillery who live in the targeting cycle and they do equally as well. And then just when we think we've got it figured out, we'll receive somebody from the intelligence or communication fields where where they themselves understand how to, how to pull from those former jobs and experiences they had to understand audiences, right? As an intel person, for example, or how to create collection requirements to measure whether or not we're being successful.

• 19:46Speaker 01

  I think what we generally see when you start talking to people, what the psyop regiment offers probably more so than any other crew film in the army is creativity. Bob and I are being asked by some very, very high level commanders for creativity. They don't want us to do anything other than offer ideas and solutions that they just hadn't considered. And just recently, our team was able to brief about 10 different options to a customer and not only did they not have the bandwidth for it, but none of those things had ever been considered and all of them are now options. So it's hard to say what the perfect candidate looks like beyond those that are motivated, that can communicate very well, right?

• 20:27Speaker 01

  That have some degree of, of creativity and emotional intelligence all kind of wrapped into a package that is a high performer.

• 20:35Speaker 03

  Yeah, so I think the bottom line is the soft attributes. So when I went to special forces assessment selection, remember, you know, through those three weeks, I'd be observing someone. I'm like, I hope he doesn't make it through like he's like he's not carrying his weight in team week, or he's cheating on this and that. And it worked like the system worked like they didn't make it through. And then when I went to the two week, 10 day civil affairs assessment selection, it was similar, like those soft attributes. I was like, that individual is not being honest, or that individual is not carrying their weight. And I don't want to go to combat with them. And they weren't in our bunk room at the end of selection. So I think rigorous discipline of those of those soft attributes. I would say if there's one that's more important

• 21:19Speaker 03

  for civil affairs, it's maybe adaptability, being able to go into any room and any indigenous population and be able to understand the influencers in the room and then who to actually then the engage and try to create effects with. And so continuously adapting to new environments.

• 21:39Fran Racioppi?

  And post-selection, what does the pipeline look like? So what's the equivalent of the qualification?

• 21:44Speaker 02

  Perfect timing. So just on Tuesday this week, I sat down with the RSOF captain's career course. So you get selected as an officer, an NCO, you come here to Fort Bragg to start your all intensive purposes, your career in your soft MOS. Just this week, I met with a group of captains. We're talking civil affairs, psyops, special forces, all in a captain's career course, which for us traditionally 10, 20 years ago would have been at the maneuver schoolhouse.

• 22:10Fran Racioppi?

  Yeah, I went to Benning.

• 22:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, you went to Benning. So we no longer go to Benning. Good and bad associated with it, neither here nor there.

• 22:16Fran Racioppi?

  Played a lot of golf.

• 22:17Speaker 02

  That's right. So

• 22:18Fran Racioppi?

  Lot of golf.

• 22:20Speaker 02

  So you have the captain's career course now. They all come here together. And my message to them, Fran, was learn each other now. Learn what you do as psyops, civil affairs, and special forces now. And my charge to all of you at the end of this course that you're about to enter is y'all get together for coffee, beer, lunch, or dinner, and you talk about, and you murder board each other on what you just learned, and start the relationship now. So for the officers, you go to the captain's career course, you immediately transition to the civil affairs or the psyop qualification course. I'll let Steve and Jeff talk about what that entails. But just two days ago, but it's also great because you're in a room of fresh, young blooded captains with a lot of questions. Some of them, I'm like, I'll

• 23:04Speaker 02

  get back to you. What book you're reading, what podcast you listen to, what do you expect?

• 23:08Fran Racioppi?

  Jedbert podcast.

• 23:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's right. What do you expect of me as a captain coming to you? But then, once you get past the initial cursory question, it's, sir, what do you expect of us as RSOF? And my message was to talk to each other, not just today, not just now, start the relationship now. So that when you do run into civil affairs, you do run in SF, or you do run into psyop, you can call Bill, Tom, Larry, Fran, and say, hey, man, do you guys really do that thing? Do you guys really do what you say this guy's telling me you do? Like, start that relationship now. So it becomes easier later on the Q course or on the operational side here.

• 23:43Fran Racioppi?

  We've been in here the last couple of days and watching the groups go through.

• 23:48Speaker 02

  It's fun.

• 23:49Fran Racioppi?

  Of all the guys who just graduated at selection and are waiting to start the Q course. And I'm looking at them and I'm so jealous.

• 23:56Speaker 02

  There's a different twinkle in your eye when you're in that position. I mean, it's awesome. Like

• 24:00Fran Racioppi?

  And they have no idea. You know, they're just looking at the walls. The whole group just left, so they can't hear me talking about them. But they're looking at the walls, they're listening to the, they're calling them the gray beards, the guys taking them

• 24:10Speaker 02

  We're those old guys.

• 24:11Fran Racioppi?

  Yeah. They're not that much older than us, actually. And they're so excited. And they have no idea the journey they're about to go on. And so I've been very jealous the last few days watching that. So what's the respective qualification courses look?

• 24:25Speaker 03

  Yeah. So for for civil affairs, look, let me back up in 2014, when I went through that qualification course, it was everyone went through the same course. So if I was the officer, the NCO, or the medic, for CA, we all went through the same course.

• 24:40Fran Racioppi?

  You were 18 series before that.

• 24:42Speaker 03

  I was. And so as an 18 series, I knew that like, as an officer, you go through a specialized course, different from the Bravo, the Charlie, the Delta, and Echo. So that threw me off of like, why aren't we creating that specialty? But then we have over the last 12 years. And so we have three pathways in civil affairs qualification course. First, the ROME or the civil affairs reconnaissance NCO. And it is, we're looking at those specific critical tasks, so that you can do civil reconnaissance and civil network development engagement. And it's, we're doubling down on those. And that's what they're focusing on through the entire course. And then the same thing for the 38 Sierra or the soft civil affairs officer. And it's more of the up and out, the targeting, the mission planning aspect of it. And then

• 25:25Speaker 03

  the third is our 38 whiskey or the medic sergeant. They'll do in-depth medical training through the course around nine months and focus on medical training, how that can support the team in civil reconnaissance and network and network development engagement. And so, yeah, three, we went from 12 years ago, one pathway to three specialized pathways. And so that you have three separate MOSs and three separate capabilities within a detachment or a team.

• 25:54Speaker 01

  Not too different in the sense that around that time that Jeff's talking about, there was only one battalion within SWIC that covered both CA and psyop. So we as well were integrated between the officer and NCO. They've since broken those apart. I think what's unique, though, is that this is a joint course. It's one of the only joint courses within SWIC. They're marine cadre, as well as Marines, Navy, and all of those different services. Not too different, I think, than the civil affairs, but that certification of tasks that has to be baseline across all of the different departments is really relevant in the courses that they're running at SWIC now. But heavy dose on deception, on anthropology and psychology, understanding how people work and think. Of course, you know, our rifle

• 26:37Speaker 01

  drill is the target audience analysis and that that process looks like for analyzing people. So you could begin to think about how to manipulate or change their behavior. From there, they complete that course and the different audiences generally slip off. That's our foreign partners, our Marines, Navy, so on, so forth. And then we, we bring it up to a higher classification for our special warfare psyop course, which is an additional 10 weeks that kind of dev's out of foreign internal defense and some of the higher end capabilities, really those weapon systems that would deliver our information payloads via what I would like to say are exquisite means. After that, they roll into language,

• 27:19Speaker 01

  again, all joint, all combined, where they form those relationships that Bob talked about. I think we could all probably attest that those relationships have carried all three of us through our careers. I'm close with almost every sitting special forces group commander because of touch points throughout my career. Some of them have started here in the schoolhouse. Some of them are not, but those have created opportunities for a person not in my profession to call and ask the questions that are, that they need to understand to make decisions with someone they trust.

• 27:50Fran Racioppi?

  So over the last decade or plus, these, both the CA and the psyop teams have been centralized under the headquarters. And then they've been augmentees essentially to the groups as needed, or the army, or wherever they've been called. Some changes have occurred. You know, there's inevitably, there'll probably be more changes. But there's a decentralization effort now to bring those capabilities down to the group, the special forces group level. So what has that looked like in terms of, you know, the logistics around actually assigning the psyop and civil affairs teams or battalions to each one of the groups?

• 28:32Speaker 01

  It's taken different shapes. I mean, it's very, I think it's very easy for Jeff and I, who own those organizations that have developed that new requirement and new relationship, to say that locally with third group, very, very simple because of the proximity.

• 28:48Fran Racioppi?

  Did you have region, sorry, did you have regional affiliation?

• 28:52Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 28:52Fran Racioppi?

  Prior to?

• 28:53Speaker 01

  Yes, yes.

• 28:54Fran Racioppi?

  Okay.

• 28:54Speaker 01

  So our regional, and I don't want to speak for you, Jeff, but our regional battalions, it was an easy transition to go down to the Yarbor complex and spend time with third group and get integrated across all of the equipment and the medical and all of the care and feeding that takes place. It's created some challenges that we're working through and we're continuing to iterate and look at how integration works with those that are not co-located, right? The battalions that have to operate with first group, which is probably one of the more challenging locations, because, I mean, first group's holding conferences and meetings with people on this side of the states, as well as folks out in Okinawa and across their battle space. So when they're manipulating across in those time zones, that that creates some challenges and some logistical things that we're working through.

• 29:40Speaker 01

  What's important and where I think we all appreciate our commander's support is that we've all acknowledged that we weren't going to get this right at first. And we're going to continue to focus on ensuring that the people understand that they're being cared for, that the mission is still going to continue, and that they have the support of the command. So we're still looking at how to make this better. You know, it's like a foxhole. We have to continue to improve it.

• 30:04Fran Racioppi?

  Yeah. I mean, I don't think is not only in special operations, but I mean, in the army, whenever we'll make these changes, there's always a learning curve that's associated with it. And what it looks like at first is never what it looks like.

• 30:17Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 30:18Fran Racioppi?

  Yeah. Year, two years down the road. So.

• 30:21Speaker 03

  Yeah, to touch on what Steve was saying, same in 95, our regional line battalions are now assigned to those groups. And definitely the cross functional integration has definitely improved. Where the art of it for, I think for us is, how do we maintain and preserve that capability? So how do I preserve the civil affairs capability with the battalions that'll be assigned to the groups? And so that's, we're working on how to certify a company through an exercise, but then validate that capability so that it is standardized and we are, when you ask for a civil affairs team or detachment, it's going to be that same capability regardless of the group. And so that's the challenge I'm working through. And I think we got a good plan.

• 31:03Speaker 01

  And if I could add one thing, some of the real goodness has come out of it is just the integration at the highest levels. For example, we had a psychological operation, operations 06 that took a task force in Africa as a deputy commander for third group. And he was the release authority for kinetic fires. Like, that's not an opportunity that a psyop or a CA person would generally see. Right now, there are psyop and civil affairs 06s or 05 promotables that are sitting as deputy commanders to special forces groups, being able to advise a green beret on how to use these non kinetic capabilities in a way that we haven't really explored before. And to Bob's point earlier, like, he's had

• 31:45Speaker 01

  to learn a lot over the last 20 months. The commanders we're growing now are understanding it because their advisors or senior advisor is someone from our two regiments that's sitting on their staff on the desk or the seat next to them on the right side. That's a fantastic opportunity.

• 32:02Fran Racioppi?

  One of the big changes that we've seen from the Army level over the last, I'm not sure when it started. I think we're a year, maybe a little bit more into it, I think. You can correct me if I'm wrong, I won't be offended. But it was formalizing and as we started this conversation, really going back to the history and reverting back to the original mission of the Special Warfare Center was, is now creating the Center of Excellence or the making Army Special Operations, the proponentcy for all Army Information Operations. And so that IO Center has come back here to the Special Warfare Center.

• 32:43Fran Racioppi?

  And now the conventional Army is sending everybody here to be trained with and alongside the RSOF folks. So what is it, first of all, what does it look like to have the Information Operations Headquarters essentially here? You know, and then how has it been going?

• 33:01Speaker 02

  Let me go first, Steve, on where we were before the Army made this decision. You had Functional Area 30, Information Operations. They would go get six, eight, 10 weeks of training up in Virginia. And then they would go out and be a subject matter expert for usually a Geographic Combat Command or an Army Theater Command. And then you had 37 PSYOP back here at Fort Bragg getting training also in some of the same capability. Admittedly, the PSYOP pipeline was a little bit longer. And I think it all started just a few years ago when the Chief of Staff of the Army asked the question, what's the difference in a Reserve PSYOPer and an Information Officer and a Psychological Operations Officer? Just him asking that question alone drove change.

• 33:44Speaker 02

  And that landing us where we are now is how are we defining that? And it's all one standard. And then how do we move forward together, not in three disparate pipelines? Cause if I rattled off for you, the training that the Reserve component got didn't look like the active component, Psychological Operations didn't look like the Information Operations. So if you're an Army Maneuver Commander, everything I just described to you, Fran, your head would explode. Like what just happened? Like the same capability, we think, Information Warfare, Psychological Operations, trained three different ways. So the conversation started there two years ago. Now Steve's going to talk about what we've done to put all of that together and hopefully have one unified pipeline for the information professionals in the Army.

• 34:28Speaker 01

  Just, just to correct one thing, it was five different pathways.

• 34:32Speaker 02

  Not three, not three, five.

• 34:34Speaker 01

  Yeah. So yeah, the product that a customer, that a customer get completely varied in their education, experience, their selection, so on.

• 34:42Speaker 02

  But Fran, you've been deployed, like commanders don't have the time to figure out what flavor of information you are. Like you're the same, you're the same, you're the same. Well, actually we're not, sir. So what Steve's describing, five different pathways to be trained in Information Warfare.

• 34:58Fran Racioppi?

  We discussed that yesterday with, with General Ferguson and CSM Waldo. And then again, with the SWIT Command Team, that when the operational force receives a Special Operations capability, the expectation that combatant commander, that JTF commander, they are, they are trained to a certain proficiency level. And their job is now not to micromanage and, and figure out who these guys are and what they can do. They're actually the total opposite where their expectation is that these guys are going to come in here, they're fire and forget, and they're going to do the thing I need them to do, and then they're going to leave.

• 35:34Speaker 01

  I think, I'll go, but I think it would be a missed opportunity if Jeff didn't explain how Civil Affairs broke apart their Reserve MOS from their SOF MOS. We didn't do that. A 37 is a 37, no matter where it sits.

• 35:49Fran Racioppi?

  Regardless of compo.

• 35:51Speaker 01

  Yep. So Reserve, National Guard, Active Component, all the same, all the same CMF, all the same MOS. They broke it apart. And I think that it's worked out real well for them, but that's probably an optic that I'll defer to you. But for us, an FA 30 that would sit on these staffs and integrate all of these non-lethal fires was one pathway to a very unique position that sometimes psychological, in a lot of cases, Psychological Operations also filled at the same level and competed for at the same grade plates. So we kind of normally, as the traditional 37 career field grew into these generalists, were able to consider all the non-lethal fires at the above core level positions.

• 36:36Speaker 01

  What I've understood is that the CSA asked the question that Bob pointed out. And he wanted to upscale the information profession across the Army and across the Joint Force. And the best way to do it was to, to merge all of this into one responsible Center of Excellence that can take all this and all these POIs and all these, these lessons and create something new to provide an equalized force that has the same or similar baseline. For the Psychological Operations Regiment, the historic one before this merger, it's created tremendous opportunity for us. Cause we kind of had about four positions that an O6 could grow into, both of these commands being two of those. Now there's 22 additional O6s.

• 37:21Speaker 01

  Those are the, at the Combatant Commands, the Functional Combatant Commands, and some of the Pentagon and unique assignments. So it's really opened up and broke the, the glass ceiling for us in terms of opportunities. And, you know, quite frankly, I think it's a fantastic thing for us to be absorbing. And I look forward to seeing what it looks like. We haven't received the first lot of them through the course. So we've got a couple more months before they arrive and we're able to kind of explore what it is that they bring that's different than those before them. But it is all opportunity as far as I'm concerned.

• 37:57Fran Racioppi?

  But are they keeping that, is the conventional Army keeping that? And the Reserve Components keeping those MOSs? Or is it now like, hey, if you come in here to do Information Operations, you're going to fourth Psychological Operations?

• 38:13Speaker 01

  So there is one career field now and it is, right now it's 37, the number could change. But the branch name will remain Psychological Operations for all of those populations we just talked about. I think they're still trying to work out whether or not there is an RSOF path and maybe a conventional or planner path, like we've talked about over, you know, with many years, whether or not there should be a command or planner path for our career fields. But I think that there's no way that we can't have an RSOF pure, is of the same MOS, same training that does support the general purpose force and joint force requirements.

• 38:50Speaker 02

  But I think it's fair to say for both Civil Affairs and PSYOP, the Army wants more. The Army wants more, that's a real conversation happening right now, Fran, is how do we give more RSOF capability to the Army?

• 39:01Fran Racioppi?

  And from the Civil Affairs perspective?

• 39:04Speaker 03

  On the divorce of MOS, so just going back to myself serving in 19th Special Forces Group, Active Guard Reserve. And I saw for 10 years how difficult it was to man, train and equip and keep those certifications for those specialty MOSs and on an attachment and so forth. But that's just two groups. In the Reserve, Civil Affairs, it is nine brigades. And so as when we decided the 95th, the switch from just one MOS for NCOs and one for officers to now specialized, three different pathways, and then one of those pathways becomes a Zulu, which is a Team Sergeant and higher with the, within Civil Affairs.

• 39:44Speaker 03

  I think that was like the, we realized that the Reserve and nine brigades couldn't, it's not scalable. It wasn't feasible for them to transform in that same fashion. So I think it's just based on scale. There's nine Reserve Brigades, they couldn't create that type of specialty and, and hence the reason. But on that mark, like there is some phenomenal skills and capabilities that come out of the, the Reserve Civil Affairs. Like we're talking like lawyers and doctors and, you know, in their civilian role that when they get down range are huge value added. But that's the reason why we, I believe, for kind of the divorce with, with the Reserve Component.

• 40:24Fran Racioppi?

  Where are we going? We've spent a lot of discussion time talking about things like robotics. And the, the 18 series, you're now working on the Robotics MOS Enabler. Chief Ostrander, Gary Ostrander was talking about it again yesterday. You guys could be brothers, by the way.

• 40:46Speaker 01

  I know. He's got great, great barber, right barber.

• 40:50Fran Racioppi?

  But there's, the battlefield's changing, you know, when we look at the capability of UAS platforms and drones, you know, how all of those things we never really thought about. You used to be able to go on, on target with a cell phone. You know, like now you can, we had some great conversations with 18th Airborne Corps and their Joint Innovation Outpost and 18th Fires Brigade about, you know, some of the technology being used against us in terms of digital footprint. But these things are real and they're here and having. Done a similar series to this, you know, two years ago on the other side of this wall.

• 41:33Fran Racioppi?

  We talked a lot about large scale combat operations and every commander who sat in there, we said, oh, large scale combat operations. And it was a, this thing that was out there in the future. We knew it was coming and now probably six months into the closest to large scale combat operations that we've seen, which, you know, has been joint force heavy. And we have to give credit to the, the Navy and the Air Force for some of the load these guys have carried over the last six months. I mean, just incredible work, but when you look forward into your respective specialties, what is the future of these organizations and their capabilities?

• 42:08Speaker 01

  We've hit upon it a little bit, but if you look at the conflicts and the operations, the high level stuff that we've executed, or that the army, the joint forces executed over the last year under this administration, a lot of it's been over the horizon, right? A lot of the deception and the influence and, you know, the sleight of hand, hasn't been somebody on the ground in those countries delivering some kind of effect or, or even using a language. They've been using that, that creativity, that horsepower we talked about and sitting from somewhere in the rear, integrating a layering, all these different non-lethal effects to sell a really believable story that allows our, our folks to get in and get out as quickly as possible.

• 42:52Speaker 01

  It's a hell of a mind change that, that we're trying to go through, mindset change that we're trying to go through in the regiment. The guys want to fly drones. It's exciting. And as we look at the battlefield and the things we've talked about, it looks to me more like us giving some kind of pod to some kind of larger drone operator and asking them to get those things into the environment for us. Or using our, the artillery or using some non-traditional means, but asking and, and tasking other conduits to get those things into the environment. And that's different than what we've been doing over the last, you know, all throughout GWAT where we were on the ground, conversing with target audiences, handing out leaflets and handbills and trying to persuade in that manner.

• 43:38Speaker 01

  So it's a big change to ask and the bosses has been very frank. He wants precision influence. He wants us to hit that decision maker. He wants us to create space so that that person is not where he or she should be. And then creates that time and advantage for the joint force to execute its mission.

• 43:58Fran Racioppi?

  Yeah.

• 43:59Speaker 01

  All slightly new when you look at the regimental current operations. Not so new for some of our exquisite, but the regiment and its almost purely tactical employment, it's a very big change for us.

• 44:12Fran Racioppi?

  But where are we going? What's old is new as well. So where are we going? Everything Steve just laid out, but don't forget the ghost army inflatable tanks, inflatable helicopters, deceit, fake artillery tubes, just to give that sleight of hand or that decision space. So make no doubt, like we're dabbling in the drone space. We're messing around with AI. We're looking at the latest technological things, but sometimes what is old is new again. And the ghost army things they were doing in World War II were starting to adapt as well.

• 44:44Speaker 03

  Yeah. So completely agree. Like we see the, the future operating environment where our adversaries are continuously watching us. And they have like censorship and information dominance over us in many ways. So is keeping our old means of civil reconnaissance and network development of jumping into a truck and engaging people directly. But having multiple means to do it. So it is using the digital space for civil reconnaissance. It is using UAS for civil reconnaissance. It is using our partners by with and through our partners for, for them to do civil reconnaissance. And so we're looking at keeping the old ways because I have that flexibility, but building multiple modes of civil reconnaissance and engagement through multiple domains and dimensions.

• 45:30Fran Racioppi?

  All right. Last question. It's a test question.

• 45:32Speaker 01

  Oh no. This is a tough one.

• 45:33Fran Racioppi?

  Everybody's been prepared for the test question. The word has gotten out. That's the problem. And then I got, I got yelled at for not giving the test question to one group.

• 45:43Speaker 01

  Let's start with Bob then.

• 45:44Fran Racioppi?

  Yeah.

• 45:47Fran Racioppi?

  So as leaders, we've got to develop habits. Because if we have solid habits, our organizations have solid habits, they become our standards, they become our foundation. You know, as soldiers in army special operations, we have some that we've heard of our whole career. Can we, how well do we shoot, move and communicate? If we do those three things well, we don't really have to think about them when a more complex challenge comes our way, because those are innate in us. We just know how to do them. What are the three things that you each do every day in order to be successful in your world? Your habits, your foundations?

• 46:26Speaker 01

  Sammy's looking at me.

• 46:27Fran Racioppi?

  Well, we can start wherever. I'll give you guys a sec.

• 46:30Speaker 01

  Let me, I'll take a stab at it. I'm sure it's not going to be great. When I jumped into command, I asked the team, I said, the, I don't want any white space on the calendar outside of this one area where I need a little bit of time to think and decompress, but my, the time needs to belong to the people. So I spend probably 50% of my day counseling and mentoring young soldiers and officers. And it's, it goes both ways, right? I think we all know this. I mean, it's not, it's nothing mind blowing, but listening to what they see at their level helps me be better in terms of how I operationalize or how I, how I employ the staff to be better. I'd say that's probably the biggest thing that I believe I bring to the fight.

• 47:15Speaker 01

  The second is, and again, just listening, talent management is, is a real important thing that sometimes we neglect. A lot of the problems that Bob and I talk about, and I'm sure Jeff and I will talk about it in the future. There's structural issues, there's equipment issues, but it's the employment is the biggest issue, right? If, if the folks that were telling us what to do and where to go were more deliberate and took into consideration just how finite the capabilities are that we offer. I think that we've been in a much better and more proficient space. So making sure that, that we as the seniors identify those talent members

• 47:57Speaker 01

  and make the effort and the connection and the time to place them where they'll be the best. Not necessarily where they want to go, but where we know they're going to be successful. And where we know that they're going to be able to represent the equities of these formations and this, this tribe to the best of our, our ability. And gosh, I guess the third would be just challenging the staff, right? Like we have a big responsibility to the army as it relates to educating those members of our staff on how to be better future leaders. At the end of the day, like we're all going to walk away from these uniforms, whether or not it's time or whether or not it's just taken away from us. And, uh, and I think if we could look back and say, we made 10 versions of us that were going to be successful,

• 48:42Speaker 01

  whether they were low density or members of our staff, regardless of their career field. I think that, that the investment in the talent management, the time with the people are, are probably all kind of encompassing to what's helped me. But at the end of the day, we all know we just have to listen.

• 48:59Fran Racioppi?

  D minus on all your answers that were not, they were not habits. So I'm your best critic. I mean, Steve and I for the last year have been together. Your first one was a habit, but what do you do every day? As a habit. See, I had time to think, so I get to sit back and criticize you. I get to sit back and think.

• 49:16Speaker 01

  He's judging me.

• 49:17Speaker 03

  I can go and give Steve some time to.

• 49:20Fran Racioppi?

  I thought your answers were excellent, by the way.

• 49:22Speaker 03

  I did too.

• 49:22Fran Racioppi?

  Steve's quickly jumped into command mode. I mentor my people. I coach.

• 49:27Speaker 01

  Thanks, Jeff.

• 49:27Speaker 03

  Yeah, you're welcome.

• 49:29Fran Racioppi?

  That's tough love right there. All right. You suck. Next man.

• 49:32Speaker 02

  I'm probably going to be an F. It's okay.

• 49:34Speaker 03

  So my leadership development model is it starts off with the individual. And so if you're at the company level, you're focusing on the individual and team. If you're at the battalion leadership level, you're focusing on the team and the company. If you're at the brigade level, it's the battalion, the company. But if you're looking at like that individual, it all starts off with the individual. And so I'm a big believer in the newer holistic fitness manual. And so for the individual, like three habits that I absolutely recommend every day is investment in, in first a physical, right? I am definitely not a morning person. If I do not like work out in the morning, I'll be absolutely cranky. But like the physical is like, what will you, but then what also it's the focus on what will keep you and your soldiers alive downrange.

• 50:19Speaker 03

  And then two, investment in the cognitive. And that's everything from, my mentor told me I need to be reading Carl Sandburg's biography on Abraham Lincoln, six volumes. So I'm, I'm doing that right now. I'm a volume three, but cognitive is also like your language and your proficiency and investing in that. And then third, that every individual needs to do, and it depends on that individual is spiritual fitness. And it is, could be family, it could be God, it could be going out in, in nature. But what connects you spiritually and you can help rebound. And so those are the three habits that I gotta do every day, probably lesser in the week than in the weekend where I'm, I'm more committed.

• 50:59Speaker 03

  But I think as a foundation for a good soldier, which builds a team, which builds a company, a battalion and a brigade.

• 51:06Speaker 02

  I blocked two hours. I'm going to get an F here.

• 51:08Fran Racioppi?

  What about, are you going to, are you going to grade him?

• 51:10Speaker 02

  He did great. He did great. Of course, I'm always breaking their stones. Steve more than Jeff, but uh, for me, I have a bit of a green thumb. So habit, I get up every morning and I go out in the garden. I've got some monster watermelons right now in the backyard. So gardening is the first. My second, Steve talked about it, time. Leaders need time to think. Leaders need time to prepare for coaching. Leaders need time to understand what's going on around them. So they can issue clear, sound guidance. And then for me, third is anybody you talk to that knows me, I'll interact with the staff. Some of my best interactions are when I'm in civilian clothes and I go over to the barracks. The kids that live over there don't know I'm a colonel. I'm like, hey man, what's going on in your world? And they just let it go.

• 51:51Speaker 02

  But they're the best conversations I have as leaders. So every day I try to get somewhere I have not been or call somebody that I haven't talked to in the last 30 days to see what's going on. And then I always end the conversation, what am I missing? What else can I do? What else did I not talk to you about? Just to leave that door open for somebody to communicate. And I'll tell you, like, there have been more times where I say, what else? That usually catches somebody off guard Fran, and then you know something's going on in their life or in their lives, and you could then leverage the support that we provide to the men and women that we lead.

• 52:24Fran Racioppi?

  Steve, go ahead.

• 52:26Speaker 01

  I'm trying to redo.

• 52:27Fran Racioppi?

  His third was your first.

• 52:28Speaker 01

  Listen, you know what? You think, if you think you're convincing anybody that you're not a colonel when you're in civilian clothes in the barracks.

• 52:36Speaker 02

  Sometimes I can, sometimes I can figure it out.

• 52:38Fran Racioppi?

  First of all, it's like, who's this creeper?

• 52:41Speaker 02

  That's true. Go over there and try it though. Sometimes those kids will let loose and then they'll realize like, oh man, who are you? Like,

• 52:48Fran Racioppi?

  Isn't his picture on the wall?

• 52:49Speaker 01

  Well, maybe because you've only been around for 20, yeah, 20 months. I've been around this regiment for,

• 52:53Speaker 02

  You have.

• 52:54Speaker 01

  For a while.

• 52:54Speaker 02

  It worked when I first got here, but.

• 52:57Speaker 01

  Well, I guess this is much easier. I mean, the things I did say, I would say those are my habits. I mean, the people in this job are my habit. I mean, I'm a company man. Like this is, this is all, this is what I've done my entire adult life, 30 years of it. And, uh, and I love it. I'd be wrong if I didn't say that yes. Like Jeff, I do. I mean, I've got faith and then I, I have those conversations to make sure my mind is clear, which is part of that time space. And, uh, as a family man, if I did not play basketball with my son or, uh, try and develop some kind of relationship with my teen daughters who don't want anything to do with me right now.

• 53:32Fran Racioppi?

  You're not the only one.

• 53:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, but those things, you know, they all re-energize me. Those are my habits.

• 53:38Fran Racioppi?

  They'll come back in a couple of years.

• 53:39Speaker 01

  Some, yeah, I'm any day now, any day now. But, uh, no, I, you know, I'm just happy to be here and I love being around soldiers and this, this is my calling. I think, is that good enough for you?

• 53:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'll give you, okay. Be plus, be plus.

• 53:52Fran Racioppi?

  I liked it. So, I mean, a couple of themes, right? Guys, spend time with our teams. All right. They gotta see leaders have to be present. All right. Leaders have to be present. There's just, there's no other way around that. I mean, like I think talent management is important. We gotta know who our people are and we gotta invest in them. I mean, soft, it's one of the soft truths is that we have to invest in, in our people. And we do need to challenge people. We need to challenge ourselves. The fitness, mental, physical, spiritual fitness. I mean, if we're not right as leaders ourselves, it's very, very hard for our teams to look at us and instill trust and follow us through the door when we don't know what's on the other side. Hey, look, man, if you want a garden,

• 54:33Speaker 02

  Love it.

• 54:34Fran Racioppi?

  I pay a guy. That and painting? Never. No, I'm not doing it. Although I do pick weeds because then they annoy me. I hate weeds.

• 54:44Speaker 02

  Sunlight, water, a little bit of fertilizer.

• 54:46Fran Racioppi?

  And we talked about connective, but I want to say, I want to say something about leaders need time to think. So there was a commander, when I was general Linder's aide, he rotating out and the incoming commander gave a talk and he said, leaders need time to think. And I was a captain and so, you know, you know, everything and nothing at the same time. You know, you know, everything and nothing.

• 55:09Speaker 02

  Was this the leaders that replaced Linder though? I think I know who you're talking about. Okay.

• 55:13Fran Racioppi?

  I'm not saying it because I don't remember.

• 55:15Speaker 02

  Elton, was it Buck Elton?

• 55:16Fran Racioppi?

  No, it was, uh,

• 55:17Speaker 02

  Oh, you mean here? Who replaced him?

• 55:18Fran Racioppi?

  No, it was at South Africa.

• 55:20Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 55:21Fran Racioppi?

  Starts with a B. He ran for Congress or he ran for, yeah, he ran for Congress in New Hampshire.

• 55:26Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 55:26Fran Racioppi?

  No, no, good dude. You know what I'm talking about?

• 55:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 55:29Fran Racioppi?

  What's his name?

• 55:29Speaker 01

  Uh, police man.

• 55:31Fran Racioppi?

  The police? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 55:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 55:33Fran Racioppi?

  Bulldog.

• 55:34Speaker 02

  Bulldog.

• 55:34Fran Racioppi?

  Yeah, Don Bulldog.

• 55:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, Don Bulldog.

• 55:36Fran Racioppi?

  Yeah, good dude. And Don Bulldog got out and said, leaders need time to think. And I'm like, what the fuck does that mean? Leaders, that's the dumbest shit I ever earned. I mean, leaders need time to think. Like, what are you talking about? Like, leaders need to do. And then I got out of the army and I was fortunate to have positions of increased responsibility, honestly, greater than I did as a captain in the civilian world. And fast forward to today as a business owner, a scaling business, the biggest challenge, and my team will attest to this because I complain about it the most, the biggest challenge I have every day is that the phone doesn't stop ringing and the work,

• 56:18Fran Racioppi?

  the action never ceases. And that is because I need time to think, stop, take a step back, understand what's going on and what is now my battle space, think about my strategy, make a plan of action, and then focus my team on it. Because if I'm constantly doing, we're never getting to where we need to be based on my, the vision that I have and where I want to go. And so I think that we forget that, you know, because we're selected, you know, assessed and select all of us because we're doers and you're never gonna, you're always looking for work and you're always gonna make something happen. But you have to be able to stop and think.

• 57:01Speaker 01

  Hundred percent agree.

• 57:02Fran Racioppi?

  Well, there's a lot of firsts in this conversation. You know, our first conversation about both civil affairs and SIOP and the first argument we ever had about the three things that you do to be successful.

• 57:13Speaker 02

  I couldn't let the podcast end without breaking Steve Stone. We have formed such a great relationship. I'll tell you, I talked to Steve probably just as much as I talked to my wife and it was the same for Rusty. We have to, had we not talked, and Steve told me, um, coming in the job and so did Rusty, there were times where just group commanders, I'll leave it at that, MOS agnostic, did not talk to each other.

• 57:34Fran Racioppi?

  Yeah.

• 57:34Speaker 02

  That's a recipe for disaster. So SF, Civil Affairs Ops, we gotta communicate more.

• 57:39Fran Racioppi?

  Yeah. And I mean, I look back and I wish I had more communication with CA and SOB that I work with and I didn't, I don't, for whatever reason, different environment probably, but.

• 57:49Speaker 02

  I wish I knew now, you always, you wish you knew now what you didn't know then, but, or vice versa, I got that wrong. But I wish I knew then what I know now. I would have asked more of the SOB that were attached to me. And I just think there's a lot of goodness that can come out of the communication and it's starting at the captain, junior, and SEAL level. Like get to know each other. Cause it's a capability that can be employed across the force and it's only better when it works in harmony. So Steve's heard me say that before.

• 58:19Fran Racioppi?

  All right. Well, I appreciate your time. Thanks for sharing where you come from, where you're going. It's an important part of, of what this organization does. And, you know, as we embark on what is today's battlefield, and I won't call it the modern battlefield and I won't call it all these other terms they've given, but because it is here now and we're in it and we need you guys.

• 58:37Speaker 02

  Thank you. Appreciate it. They found us.

• 58:40Fran Racioppi?

  American Jedbergs went on to form the foundation of the United States Special Forces and the Special Activities Director of the Central Intelligence Agency. Thanks for listening to the Jedburgh Podcast, an official program of the Green Beret Foundation. I'm your creator and host, Fran Rychowi. Join us next week for a new episode on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Check us out on YouTube for full episodes, highlights, and other long and short form content. If you like what you heard, give us a like and leave a review. Follow the Jedburgh Podcast and the Green Beret Foundation on LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook, X, or threads. Send your comments and inquiries to Fran at jedbergpodcast.com. As former members of Special Operations Forces, the Jedburgh Media Channel and the Green Beret Foundation remain committed to supporting all generations of US Army Special

• 59:22Fran Racioppi?

  Forces and their families. Thanks for joining us on this episode. How you prepare today determines success tomorrow.