BNY's Jose Minaya on How AI Is Transforming Asset Management

Barry speaks with Jose Minaya, global head of BNY Investments and Wealth. In this episode, Jose and Barry discuss his career buy-side trading, investing in the alternatives space. The also discuss the changes blockchain and AI are bringing to asset management. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

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• 1:13Speaker 02

  This is Masters in Business with Barry Ritholtz on Bloomberg Radio.

• 1:20Barry Ritholtz?

  On the latest Masters in Business podcast, wow. Jose Minaya runs wealth management services at BNY back in New York. Incredible bank, incredible history. They're literally the first bank, BNY is the first bank in America, the first publicly listed stock on the New York Stock Exchange. Not only do they have 2.2 trillion in assets, but they touch about one out of every five dollars in assets globally. They touch, you know, 60, 70 trillion dollars worth of assets, whether it's through their clearing, their infrastructure, their custodianship.

• 2:01Barry Ritholtz?

  They're just a massive bank, the oldest bank in America, the first bank in America, formed by Alexander Hamilton.

• 2:10Barry Ritholtz?

  Jose has a fascinating background and a fascinating career as both a chief investment officer and CEO. Few people are better positioned to talk about not only what's happening in the state of wealth management in the US and globally, but what's coming next? What digital technology and tokenization means for asset managers, as well as the impact of AI on how we're all going to deal with our dollars. I thought this conversation was absolutely fascinating, and I think you will also. With no further ado, my master's in business interview of BN Y's Jose Minaya. So let's start out talking about your background.

• 2:55Barry Ritholtz?

  Bachelor's in finance from Manhattan College, an MBA from Tuck Business School at Dartmouth. What was the career plan?

• 3:03Speaker 04

  You know, my career plan was always a work in progress. I always say I almost had like a little bit of a Forrest Gump approach to starting my career. First, I'm a first-generation American, so you know, I grew up in Washington Heights in a Dominican family, Dominican parents, so baseball was big in my life. And for a while there, I thought I was going to be a pro-baseball player.

• 3:26Barry Ritholtz?

  What'd you play?

• 3:26Speaker 04

  I was a pitcher. Did pretty well, did pretty well, up until the point that I didn't.

• 3:32Barry Ritholtz?

  High school or college?

• 3:33Speaker 04

  High school and college.

• 3:35Barry Ritholtz?

  I pitched in high school. No curveball, that's the end of your pitching career.

• 3:39Speaker 04

  Yeah, my whole thing is if I threw strikes, I did pretty well. If I didn't, I was going to get in trouble.

• 3:45Barry Ritholtz?

  So you, a little control issue, is that the problem?

• 3:47Speaker 04

  Yeah, a little control issues, yeah.

• 3:48Barry Ritholtz?

  It's hard to throw both hard and accurately.

• 3:51Speaker 04

  Yes, it is. Yes, it is. It's like everything else, it's about trying to find the balance, right?

• 3:55Barry Ritholtz?

  So, that's right. So you mentioned you're a first-generation American. How did that affect you? What does that do to your worldview, your work ethic? How does it affect your outlook and career progress?

• 4:09Speaker 04

  I think being a first-gen and just kind of my, you know, the neighborhood I grew up, which I often describe to people. You know, if you've been to Chinatown, Washington Heights, when I grew up there was the Dominican version of Chinatown. But, um, look, I mean, I grew up around strong family values. I had a great home life, very privileged that way, strong work ethic coming in. But I, but I did, but I did grow up in a bubble, right? So one end, uh, what I took with me when I exited or left that bubble was work ethic, was kind of, uh, really understanding relationships and, and, and that. But, uh, then when I left that bubble, um, it was more defined by, okay, I was in different audiences.

• 4:54Speaker 04

  I was in, um, in situations where then more acclimating was kind of more my, my focus and my goal for early part, early part of my career.

• 5:02Barry Ritholtz?

  Hmm, really, really interesting. You come out of Tuck, you, uh, end up being an analyst. Tell us about the early days, uh, post, post grad school.

• 5:12Speaker 04

  Yeah, I think post grad school, I, I was still trying to figure out what I, what I really wanted to do because, you know, if I even go pre, you know, coming out of undergrad, you know, I, I had a finance degree. I was good at math and, you know, I asked people, what are you supposed to do with this? And people mentioned Wall Street and firms like JP Morgan and Goldman Sachs. And I was fortunate enough to get a job at JP Morgan. I went, everyone was taking a GMAT. I had no idea what a GMAT was, but I figured I'm supposed to take it as well. And I went to grad school and then coming out of grad school, I went back to Wall Street. Not necessarily thinking that's what I wanted my career to be, but I didn't really have a plan for anything else. I think as I started really searching around what I wanted to do and, and, and instead of advising people, kind of doing things that were going to be there for the long

• 5:57Speaker 04

  term, build something, um, you know, I found my way into the buy side, right? And then my first job kind of in investing, working at AIG Global Investment Group, I think today is called Pine Bridge. Uh, but that was my first real like investing job. And, and even there, finding my way, I started out in equities and I was like, okay, I like this, but I felt like, you know, the other side, as I ran into people on the bond side and, uh, and, and, and private credit, um, I, I felt that that was more kind of cash flow based versus, I used to get annoyed where my model, I felt like my models were right, but the markets never cooperated with, uh, so it didn't matter that I was right. I felt more at home in that environment where it was more around, okay, how, how do I judge the downside? How do I kind of really analyze cash flows?

• 6:42Speaker 04

  And then I found myself on the buy side and I found myself as a private credit manager. I think from there, interestingly enough, I said, hey, this, I found my thing. I love doing this. And I always found myself in situations where I did what I did really well and somebody always asked me to do a little more. And in that little more, it was always kind of like extending myself and say, okay, am I still the SME or am I now gathering and doing different things? And then ultimately, especially when I was at TIA, it was this idea of like, oh, you know, should we go into agriculture? Should we go into commodities? And I was like, well, here, I'm a kid from New York City. I don't really know anything about agriculture and commodities.

• 7:25Speaker 04

  But you know what? I kind of dived in and said, this is interesting. This was the other thing that took me to another place in my career. That I'd say I took another, people viewed as a big risk because at that point, you know, I was managing about a $15 billion private credit portfolio. Back then, that was a, that was a pretty major thing.

• 7:45Barry Ritholtz?

  Felt like a lot of money.

• 7:46Speaker 04

  Felt like a lot of money and it was and is. And I, I kind of made a decision from doing these kind of nights and weekends on this project of going into farmland. I made a decision to say, you know what? I'm going to leave all this behind. I want to go try to build this. And even my, the CIO at the time said, are you sure you want to do this? Because you know, maybe, I'll tell you what. Why don't you give this a run, but you know what? We'll, we'll keep your job warm for you here. I think he figured he'll come running back in six months.

• 8:16Barry Ritholtz?

  Give this a run, meaning the CIO position?

• 8:18Speaker 04

  Meaning, uh, running a farmland fund.

• 8:20Barry Ritholtz?

  Oh, okay.

• 8:21Speaker 04

  And, um, and you know, I, I, so I, I went out and said, oh, I want to do this. We ended up becoming the largest farmland fund institutional manager for farmland assets globally. At, at the time. And you know, one of the things that my philosophy in doing these things is, you know, taking the confidence to always kind of try things that get me excited and, and that I feel passionate about. But I think throughout my investing life, you know, one mantra I've always had is, you know, you gotta be really good at knowing what you don't know.

• 8:51Barry Ritholtz?

  Mm hmm.

• 8:51Speaker 04

  And that that comes with being more humble, that comes with kind of asking a lot of questions, not being intimidated by bringing people around you that are smarter than you. Because I was like, hey, I could understand people, I could understand math. Now, how do I fill in these blanks? How do I get people around me that are gonna give me kind of the knowledge that I know I don't have? And that that career progression was from farmland, they said, hey, wow, you did an amazing job. Can you take real estate? Can you take natural resources? Can you take all of private markets? And then ultimately, can you be the chief investment officer? And then growing that into a asset management firm. And what I realized was that what I thought my passion was, was in investing.

• 9:33Speaker 04

  But the real passion that I really found was was in building, building things. You know, managing teams and bringing teams together.

• 9:39Barry Ritholtz?

  So, so I want to circle back to building what you did at Nuveen. How do you go from JP Morgan to AIG to Merrill? What ultimately leads you to Nuveen?

• 9:51Speaker 04

  You know, what leads me to Nuveen is just, I always say, like, picking up the breadcrumbs, right? I was, I was on a journey of really kind of searching, again, what's my passion? What I want to do? I was very fortunate, you know, here I am, I'm sitting on, at a job on Wall Street at JP Morgan, very fortunate to have it, but I couldn't see myself doing that job for 20 years. Then I'm like, oh, I'm fortunate to get a job on the buy side. And I'm like, okay, this is great, I'm at AIG, you know, it's a terrific opportunity, terrific firm. Yet, there's still that thing that I'm kind of still trying to find. That feels like, hey, what's really getting my juices going? And, you know, it was always that search for, for that thing that kind of made me get up early in the morning. And when I ultimately landed at Nuveen, which is part of TIA,

• 10:37Speaker 04

  that was that role, and I ended up being there 20 years. And then, and I, and I would tell you the large, the, the longest role I've ever had in my life, in my entire career, was my five years or so as, was my role as CEO there.

• 10:50Barry Ritholtz?

  Twen- even twenty years is a long time in the modern world to be at any one firm. It seems people don't do that anymore. What was it that kept you there? It sounds like they kept piling on new challenges and really keeping you engaged.

• 11:05Speaker 04

  Yeah, that's exactly right. Meaning, um, I, like, the longest role I've had in my career is the five years I was the CEO. Part of that, every three, four years, someone was giving me something else to build. I always say, I, I get itchy, I, uh, maybe I'm not the best steward in the world, but what does get me excited is, is building things, kind of building new teams. You know, um, the challenge of kind of like growing a capability. Um, and I got to do that over the course of twenty years. I've been extremely blessed and same thing in moving to my role now. It's, it's a tremendous opportunity and, you know, I could still say that twenty plus years, um, I, I still get excited every morning to kind of go to work.

• 11:44Barry Ritholtz?

  When, when you say building new teams, give us an example of some of the sort of teams you helped build that kept you occupied for twenty years?

• 11:53Speaker 04

  Sure. I mean, one, I, I mentioned the farmland example. That was a complete startup from-

• 11:58Barry Ritholtz?

  From scratch, from zero dollars.

• 12:00Speaker 04

  From zero dollars to kind of go in and building a team. You know, I'm very proud of what we did in private credit. You know, we, we started the Churchill Group with, you know, again, that was finding the right people, finding Ken Kinsell, who was a tremendous leader and had a team with him. And we started with zero. Today, that broader platform at Nuveen is, uh, almost, uh, you know, call it just short of a hundred billion in, in private credit. Uh, so there's multiple examples like that where the, basically the blueprint was either we were doing an acquisition or we were finding a team and we're saying, okay, we've got the right makings here of a team. How do we give this team the right tools? Uh, and go out and try to grow, grow a platform.

• 12:39Barry Ritholtz?

  So you're no stranger to alternatives. We, we've talked about farmland, uh, real estate, private credit, private debt, natural resources. What is your view today on alts? What do you think about what kind of feels a little bit like a land rush? What, what's going on in the world of alts today?

• 12:57Speaker 04

  Yeah, and you know, it feels like a land rush, but I, I will tell you that this has been building for some time. And, and, and the interesting thing is- You know, if I go back ten, fifteen years ago, my pitch talking to clients around alternatives was one that was largely academic, right? It was this idea of um

• 13:13Barry Ritholtz?

  Diversification.

• 13:14Speaker 04

  Diversification. Hey, by the way, I know you haven't seen inflation in twenty years, but it may show up, and if it does, are you protected for it? By the way, you may be going to a market where there's a lot more volatility. Have you thought about that? And then also, hey, have you thought about yield? You know, uh, you know, there's ways to kind of think about principal protection in your portfolio and then yield. And alternatives, I would say it's just a way of bringing in the right correlations into your portfolio. And the, and, and some of the biggest alpha in alternatives is the lack of access.

• 13:45Barry Ritholtz?

  Meaning the illiquidity, you can't sell in a panic because the market's off eight percent.

• 13:50Speaker 04

  Yeah, and in many ways, you know, you're, you're going to kind of structure and get a return you're looking for because the, the, you need to have a specific skill or access point to get those assets. So then maybe the markets are a little bit less efficient.

• 14:03Barry Ritholtz?

  Mm hmm.

• 14:03Speaker 04

  You know, the interesting thing is today that academic conversation has turned into urgency. Right? So now, uh, while markets have obviously continued to be at all time highs, I think individual investors have felt what volatility feels like. Whether that was coming out of the global financial crisis, whether that was out of COVID and the, and the pandemic. We have felt and seen a lot of significant volatility.

• 14:28Barry Ritholtz?

  Twenty twenty-two, first time in forty years, stocks and bonds both down double digits. Like, people seem to think volatility gets conquered every few years. And whenever there's any sort of complacency, the market says now's the time to teach people volatility never goes away.

• 14:44Speaker 04

  Yeah, and, and throughout that, throughout that time period, you've also have seen the growth of index funds, right? So also on top of that is this idea of like, you know, I always say the world's become more commoditized. When I entered the industry, you differentiated yourself by picking better securities than the next person and driving returns. Then all of a sudden, there was a focus on cost, believe it or not, once upon a time.

• 15:06Barry Ritholtz?

  Nobody paid any attention.

• 15:08Speaker 04

  Nobody paid attention to fees. I think then it was, well, no, you're going to compete on fees as well. And then became the race to zero. Today. You know, investment performance is obviously extremely important, but it's table stakes. Costs, we're all, we're all kind of basically at the bottom end of that curve for costs. So now, it's more around what are the outcomes you're going to deliver to someone? Technology is a, it's a big component. It is the flexibility that you offer, you offer clients. But it is ultimately about what is the outcomes you're going to get to clients? And that 70-30 portfolio, that passive fund that said, hey, you're in a target date fund? You don't have to do anything, just sit back and it all adjusts and drives kind of the returns you need?

• 15:52Speaker 04

  Well, in those moments where correlations go to one, it didn't feel so good.

• 15:57Barry Ritholtz?

  That's right.

• 15:57Speaker 04

  It didn't feel so good. And I think now it's, there's more sophistication in terms of how you package, you know, solutions. More sophistication now on the need to get alternatives to, to clients. I think these things all now, I think again, what was an academic conversation today is, is an urgency.

• 16:17Barry Ritholtz?

  So the phrase I've heard from a number of people over the past year or so has been,

• 16:24Barry Ritholtz?

  70-30, 60-40, that's the old way. The new way is 50-30, 20. Are you in that camp?

• 16:31Speaker 04

  Yeah, look, I think 50-30, 20, 130-30. Uh, look, at the end of the day, I, I would say it's not really about whether you should be in the 50, the 30. Ultimately, it starts with a conversation around what are the outcomes you're looking for? What are your needs, right? These, these markets, and when you think about alternatives, by the way, these are not get rich quick schemes. These are not like, oh my God, we need alternatives because there's like this outsized return. In many cases, I've mentioned to you, Farmland, that was a four to six percent return market, but extremely consistent.

• 17:02Barry Ritholtz?

  And long-term lockups, right?

• 17:03Speaker 04

  And long-term lockups, yeah. And, um, but it gave you a certain correlation. So yes, fit like all these different mechanisms. At the end of the day though, what it's really all about is what are the outcomes you're trying to drive for your clients? And, and, and what is the sophistication we have and the ability to construct those portfolios? And the most important thing in constructing those portfolios is, do you have access to a broad array of capabilities? Because the more access you have to different types of assets, the better the outcome is. Portfolio theory 101.

• 17:38Barry Ritholtz?

  Coming up, we continue our conversation with Jose Minaya, Global Head of BNY's Investment and Wealth, discussing his experiences at Nuveen TIAA. I'm Barry Ritholtz. You're listening to Masters in Business on Bloomberg Radio.

• 18:03Speaker 00

  At Brookfield, we believe you can own wealth that's measured in generations. Because true ownership looks beyond today and beyond cycles. For 125 years, we've built long-term wealth through expertise, discipline, and a clear vision for the future. Providing investors access to alternative strategies built for what's next. Brookfield. Own what's next. Learn more at Brookfield.com/own. This is not an offer to sell or investment advice. Investing involves risks, including loss of capital. Past performance is not indicative nor a guarantee of future results. Please review performance and offering materials before investing.

• 18:41Speaker 01

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• 19:13Barry Ritholtz?

  I'm Barry Ritholtz. You're listening to Masters in Business on Bloomberg Radio. My special guest this week is Jose Minaya. He is the Global Head of BNY Investments and Wealth, helping to manage over $2.2 trillion in client assets. So when you were at Nuveen, you ran about $1 trillion in assets. You led the company through a big expansion through the COVID pandemic, and then you helped expand the entire digital engagement. Tell us a little bit about what you put together at Nuveen.

• 19:49Speaker 04

  Well, I think, again, Nuvveen was quite a 20-year journey because I joined when it was basically just the investment team for TIA.

• 19:59Barry Ritholtz?

  That was right after the dot-com implosion around '04, something like that?

• 20:03Speaker 04

  That was around '04. Actually, yeah, I really started in '05. And really, it was just an investment team. Like I said, I joined as a fixed income portfolio manager. At the time, we're managing money for about a $200 billion general account. Everything was based in New York City.

• 20:22Barry Ritholtz?

  When you say general account, you're managing it on behalf of Nuvveen, not specific clients?

• 20:27Speaker 04

  I was managing on behalf of the balance sheet of TIA, which is an insurance company. So largely, that was really the structure. Nuvveen, we had not acquired Nuvveen yet at that time. But from that $200 billion, you fast-forward to today, and what I was there to help build, and it became a trillion-dollar asset manager, one where it still managed approximately $200 billion balance sheet, but then it raised another 800-plus billion in just outside capital. These are sovereign wealth funds, wealth platforms, retail, and

• 21:03Speaker 04

  it grew to about almost $250 billion in alternatives as well. So, pretty diversified shop, which now you're seeing a lot of firms trying to kind of capture that same, not just scale, but diversity in their business.

• 21:22Barry Ritholtz?

  Let's talk a little bit about real assets that you've had a lot of background in. Tell us about real estate, agriculture, timber, infrastructure. Tell us how you built those areas, previously at Nuvveen, now at BNY.

• 21:36Speaker 04

  Sure. And I think, look, I think first of all, if you think about those different asset classes, I go back to, these are not typically, you know, strategies that you're trying to get outsized returns. I think sometimes they come, and they're very much welcomed. They're typically pretty structured transactions, right? Whether it's buildings with rents, farmland with leases, infrastructure with kind of 20-, 30-year contracts. Often, there is a hedge against inflation, whether that is contractual or just by the nature of the commodity.

• 22:08Barry Ritholtz?

  Right. Prices go up, land goes up, it follows it.

• 22:11Speaker 04

  So, the simple kind of math on these things are, I'm clipping a coupon, so there's a yield component, and it's a pretty steady one. I have a gold-like protection because if you think about what do I own? I own farmland in a particular case. Well, that produces a need for society in perpetuity. So there's a certain kind of protection in your principal in owning that. Or, you know, wind farms, just again, there's intrinsic value. I have a yield, but it's usually tied to a commodity. And because of that, there's also an inflation hedge component to it. And it brings down my volatility because it's, again, it's more that consistent return profile.

• 22:53Speaker 04

  So it plays that part in portfolios, that it gives a yield. It gives it in a way that should be pretty kind of high sharp ratio, low, lower volatility. Now, today, that market is starting, it's trying to get into more mainstream. Now, if I fast forward to my opportunity of going to BNY. Now, look, I had that journey in my previous life. What I saw in BNY is where the industry is going. Right? BNY, obviously, is two times the size of where I came from. But it's also part of BNY, the bank. And BNY, the bank, touches about a fifth of the world's investable assets. So there's almost sixty. That's amazing.

• 23:33Speaker 04

  Yeah, there's almost sixty trillion dollars, call it fifty-five, fifty-six trillion, to be exact, that the bank is touching. And it's either managing these assets, it's either custoding these assets, or it's helping move kind of the finance, the global financial markets around. That is tremendous kind of access points to someone like me sitting as an asset manager. Because I'm working at, I'm working at a firm that is one of the largest asset servicers in the world. It also is one of the largest servicers to wealth platforms, i.e. registered investment advisors. Well, I have a wealth platform. I manage, I manage an investment platform. How do I get advantage of the fact that there's tremendous technology being invested

• 24:16Speaker 04

  to, to help serve asset managers? And if I go back to a comment that we, that we talked about previously, which is, if the world's becoming more commoditized with performance and cost, then what is the difference? The difference in what is the tip of the spear is technology. You hear about tokenized assets, which, which BNY is on the forefront. That's just about helping clients move money quicker.

• 24:40Barry Ritholtz?

  Define what tokenized assets mean when we're talking about stocks or bonds.

• 24:45Speaker 04

  The simplest way that I think about tokenized assets is it's an ability to, again, be more liquid. Meaning, if you were in a T plus one scenario, do you have the ability to be in a T plus five minutes?

• 24:58Barry Ritholtz?

  So, for the layperson, T plus one means you sell something today, it clears tomorrow, the cash is in your account one day later. T plus zero, as some people call it, means you sell it and you instantly get the cash. Is that what tokenization does for people?

• 25:15Speaker 04

  That's a big component. So that's creating that liquidity where if you had to wait 24 hours, now you can wait a lot less than 24 hours. The other thing that it helps do is also kind of, you're able to earn a yield.

• 25:30Barry Ritholtz?

  Because you're getting the cash. Now, for most people, one day doesn't matter. But scale that up to an institution, scale that up to a bank or an insurer, that day times thousands and thousands of accounts and transactions really adds up, doesn't it?

• 25:44Speaker 04

  I mean, scale that to, again, BNY is kind of touching and helping move 55 trillion dollars.

• 25:50Barry Ritholtz?

  So, T plus zero or T plus five minutes, that's much better than T plus one.

• 25:55Speaker 04

  And it's a big difference. And your ability, again, to potentially earn a yield in that process also, right? In that whole T plus one, in that 24 hours, in many cases, you're not able to earn a yield while that money is clearing.

• 26:09Barry Ritholtz?

  So, back in the bad old days, when it was T plus three, we were always told, hey, it takes three days to just make sure there's no fraud, the right stock is going to the right buyer, the money goes to the right account. And when they got shrunk down to one day, well, technology has allowed us to do this, but we still need a day just to verify everything. What is it that allows us to go to T plus zero? Is it just technology? Tell us how that works.

• 26:40Speaker 04

  Yeah, I think obviously the blockchain technology is one component. The other component is the fact that, you know, one of the reasons being why I can lead in this area is that it it it custodies around eighty plus percent of the digital assets.

• 26:55Barry Ritholtz?

  Digital assets, meaning Ethereum, Bitcoin, any other sort of things like that.

• 27:00Speaker 04

  And and it's one of the it is the largest custodian in the world in general. So clearing something becomes a lot easier when it's all sitting inside. I mean, think about a warehouse. If I don't have to move it from one warehouse to the other, that makes life a lot easier.

• 27:15Barry Ritholtz?

  So that's from one you're not even moving it from one road to another. You're just changing the label. Here's who owns it.

• 27:20Speaker 04

  Yeah. Now, and again, I will tell you for me, it's I was having a conversation with our CEO about this the other day, where I'm like, one of the other things I love about my career right now. Look, it's been a long time since I've walked into rooms and I'm learning something. Because typically, you know, you I was a subject matter expert and typically most rooms that I walked into, I I felt like I I was the expert in that in that category. I'm not an expert on tokenization. I'm not an expert on on on custody. I work at a firm that that that has experts. And, you know, you're quickly quickly learning. And what's important there, I go back to, hey, but what I do understand, even though I know what I don't know, is this matters to my clients.

• 28:04Speaker 04

  So all of a sudden, if I if I am trying to think about, hey, how am I pitching my services to clients in Asia and and around the globe? And I and I have a differentiating factor, meaning I can help you go to T plus zero. That is a differentiator from a relationship perspective. And this is what I mean by where today it's it's there's so much more consolidation in the asset management industry because scale is important. And why is scale important? Because you then need to be able to service and invest in these technologies to service your client. AI is is a big topic today. And I would I would I would argue and say, well, if it's no longer debatable that AI is here and it's going to be disruptive, it's going to make a difference.

• 28:49Speaker 04

  So if you believe that. You also have to believe that the firms who can invest in it are going to be the winners for tomorrow. Now, I, you know, being able to invest hundreds of millions of dollars in AI, that takes significant scale. That takes kind of diversified businesses. Being able to hire engineers, right? So when I was sitting usually in the role of running an asset management shop, it's very hard for me to even say, how am I even going to attract engineers from Silicon Valley? How am I going to be able to pay them? Well, BNY is a massive tech stack, right? Like, they can attract a lot of engineers. They can attract a lot of investment in AI. I just happen to be in that realm, part of that universe, and I'm going to be able to benefit from, from that technology.

• 29:33Barry Ritholtz?

  So let me step back a second because we're all guilty of using acronyms and even something like BNY, you and I understand it, but perhaps the listener needs to learn a little more. BNY is Bank of New York. It's been around for how long?

• 29:50Speaker 04

  Two hundred and forty plus years. I think we're two forty-one, two forty-one.

• 29:54Barry Ritholtz?

  So, so more than, almost two and a half centuries, more than two centuries.

• 29:58Speaker 04

  I gotta add to that because I'm always fat. I will tell you, even as I joined BNY, there were things I did not know. You know, obviously, it's the first bank in the United States. It was the first bank to issue the first loan or warrant.

• 30:10Barry Ritholtz?

  Begun by?

• 30:11Speaker 04

  Alexander Hamilton. It's the first company traded on the New York Stock Exchange. It was the first, first public company.

• 30:19Barry Ritholtz?

  Right.

• 30:20Speaker 04

  You know, our first clients of the, of the bank were George Washington and Eliza Hamilton and, you know, so it's, it's just got incredible, incredible history.

• 30:28Barry Ritholtz?

  Unbelievable history. In addition to all that history, BNY is also affiliated through ownership with a lot of really well-known names within finance. Tell us about some of the other divisions that maybe people will be more familiar with those names.

• 30:45Speaker 04

  Yeah, and I tell you, I think this has a lot to do with kind of the recent performance you're seeing about the firm because it's unlocking what we would describe as, you know, BNY is a platform operating, has a, has a platform operating model, meaning it has multiple platforms. You know, of course, it has an asset manager and it has a wealth business. As we said, it's got a two, two trillion dollar asset manager, it's got about a three hundred and fifty billion dollar private bank, wealth platform. By the way, it also owns Pershing.

• 31:14Barry Ritholtz?

  Giant clearing shop and?

• 31:16Speaker 04

  And that captures around almost three trillion in advisors, advisors capital that it's servicing through a technology and a service, and a service platform. It, it has an asset servicing arm and that asset servicing is serving both asset managers and asset owners, doing things like custody, fund accounting. It, it, it has a treasury component as well. You know, the other interesting thing about BNY is it clears all the treasuries of the United States. So, you know, it's a G-SIB, it's a significant bank and plays an important part in our financial, in our financial system.

• 31:55Barry Ritholtz?

  Really, really interesting. So, tell me the story of how you moved from Nuveen to your role as Global Head of BNY Investments. You're doubling the size of the assets you're responsible. Have you approached this change? What, what sort of challenges did you face?

• 32:13Speaker 04

  You know, I think every challenge that's kind of a, that's really attracted me, including what, you know, what kept me in my previous role and, and the different roles I was in, it was the opportunity for growth, right? And I think looking at, at BNY and, and seeing where I believe the industry is going, just saw a tremendous opportunity of what is a two trillion dollar shop, you know, should, could, should easily be a four trillion dollar shop, right? And when you think about the ecosystem that, that we play in within BNY, right? As I mentioned, you, you know, we, we manage money for other people as an asset manager. We manage money also as a wealth platform for, for families and individuals.

• 32:54Speaker 04

  Yet, we also have, we also service other wealth advisors through Pershing. But they're also the clients of the firm. I'm an asset manager. A lot of my competitors are clients of BNY as well. So, and then you think about the technology that it takes to do all that and, and grow that technology stack, I, I feel like a kid on a candy store for two reasons. One, that's a tremendous amount of infrastructure and capabilities that are there that I should have a home field advantage to. The other thing is that has become a lot easier in my job is, you know, when you touch a fifth of the world's assets. Most, most people are your clients.

• 33:38Speaker 04

  So getting, getting, having a conversation with potential clients is very easy to do. A lot of what you've seen, the, the, the recent success of BNY, and I think you said this earlier, is a collection of a lot of different things that were either acquired or, or built, is that, but it was also a very siloed organization for a while. The ability of having that cross connection. If I look at a world that AI is going to be important, you know, being able to touch your clients in multiple ways and have broader technology. I am sitting in that, in, in a spot where in those, all those platform operating models, I'm two of those, but I'm, I'm fitting in pretty well. I'm trying to take the advantage of the other five or six that are around me.

• 34:19Speaker 04

  Um, a great example of that, of, that I, is Archer. Archer is-

• 34:25Barry Ritholtz?

  That's a digital platform?

• 34:26Speaker 04

  It's a technology platform for SMAs. Right? So I E., your ability to, clients want to be able to, we talked about solutions. Your ability to go to an Archer, and by the way, my previous job, Archer, I was, was a, I was a client of Archer.

• 34:40Barry Ritholtz?

  And SMA stand for separately managed accounts?

• 34:43Speaker 04

  Separately managed accounts. So again, now you go back to technology, meaning you may be able to manage bonds and equities and alternatives, or even tax managed solutions. Believe it or not, bringing that together in a package for individuals takes technology.

• 34:58Barry Ritholtz?

  Mm-hmm, of course.

• 34:58Speaker 04

  Asset managers, traditionally, they're, they're stock pickers or investors and not technology people. So you go to that platform and do that. Now, when I joined BNY, I'm like, okay, this is great. Uh, they've acquired Archer. I know that they have a great capability for doing this, and this is a growing market. And already, our, our wealth platform is a client of Archer before it was even acquired. The asset management arm of BNY was already a client, was acquired. Now Archer is also free to grow because it services a broader capability, broader capability.

• 35:29Barry Ritholtz?

  It services BNY and BNY clients.

• 35:32Speaker 04

  Yeah, and that's important because again, if you think about this, the model of tomorrow and what scale matters is, one, you can, it's its own business and just kind of providing what Archer does to the broader, to the broader like, uh, community. We get an inside view and a home field advantage in getting it ourselves. Typically, if I build my own SMA platform, I have to not worry about how do I feed it to grow it. Other people are feeding it to grow it, and I get the benefit of kind of being attached to it. And I think that connectivity around, hey, everything I do on the asset management side, you know, all those clients at Pershing, they buy that as well. Should we not be engaging with our clients to do more for them?

• 36:14Speaker 04

  It's like, sure, we're doing clearing for you in custody and offering you technology. We also have asset management, all of them, obviously, buy asset management as well. So having those connective dots, I think, is a tremendous competitive advantage.

• 36:30Barry Ritholtz?

  So I want to talk a little bit about your role. I want to define it better. At Nuveen, you were CIO, and then you were CEO, two distinct positions. Your title is Head, Global Head of BNY Investments and Wealth. Sounds like a little bit of each. You're building, but you're also helping to direct the investing. Tell us a little bit about your roles and responsibilities in this new position at BNY.

• 36:56Speaker 04

  Yeah, I think, look, on one end of the spectrum is very similar to my previous role, which is BNY Investments is an asset manager. You know, obviously, it's a much bigger one than the firm I came from, but it's an asset manager, and there, you know, I'm the chief executive for that particular platform. We also have a wealth platform, and very different from asset management. It's more dealing with individuals and advice, but there's also synergies in the business, right? Meaning, if you're a wealth advisor, you're talking about how do you create investment products? How do you source them? Well, we have investment products, and how do we make sure those two groups are talking to each other? What's the products that we're creating?

• 37:37Speaker 04

  If you're an asset manager, a big part of who our clients are are wealth advisors. So having a good understanding of kind of what wealth advisors need, it really helps to have a wealth advisor in-house. Sure. So I'm managing a larger platform, but at the end of the day, my job is still very similar. It's about picking the right teams and people. You know, we talk about $2 trillion and I would tell you $2 trillion should go to $4 trillion. We don't own any of that money. The end of the day, our biggest value set of what we do and have is our people. And obviously the technology that we can, we can offer those folks. But people is kind of really our business and I've kind of seen my job today really as the chief, chief people officer for how we kind of build teams around this.

• 38:20Barry Ritholtz?

  Coming up, we continue our conversation with Jose Minaya, Global Head of BNY's Investment and Wealth, discussing his experiences at Nuveen TIAA. I'm Barry Ritholtz, you're listening to Masters in Business on Bloomberg Radio.

• 38:49Speaker 01

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• 39:20Barry Ritholtz?

  I'm Barry Ritholtz, you're listening to Masters in Business on Bloomberg Radio. My special guest this week is Jose Minaya. He is the Global Head of BNY Investments and Wealth, helping to manage over $2.2 trillion in client assets. So, so let's talk about who the clients are at BNY. You mentioned RIAs and advisors, my day job, but you also work with institutions, you work with high net worth and family offices, as well as other players in the investing world who are also clients. Sounds like you guys are a little bit of everything to a lot of different people.

• 40:05Barry Ritholtz?

  How do you keep all that running smoothly? How do you keep all those balls in the air?

• 40:10Speaker 04

  Yeah, well, look, I think BNY is often described as the bank of banks.

• 40:13Barry Ritholtz?

  Mm hmm.

• 40:14Speaker 04

  Because again, it's kind of that broader provider. And in goes the opportunity set, right? Like, again, you look at the firm, I don't know, the last I looked, the stock was about 106. You know, that's in less than a three-year span or thereabouts from $40. It makes it one of the best performing kind of financial stocks.

• 40:33Barry Ritholtz?

  And financials have been kind of lagging the tech sector for a couple of years. They're starting to play a little bit of catch up.

• 40:39Speaker 04

  They're playing a little catch up. They're doing better, but I think few are doing better, if any, are doing better than than BNY. Some of it goes back to that question you just asked me. Yeah, that there's a lot of these, the way it would, the way typically these conglomerates or these platforms were typically managed were very siloed. You know, the ability to bring in the the technology and the leadership to say, how do we have better connectivity across all our platforms is where the value proposition is, and the market is seeing that and the market is rewarding that.

• 41:12Barry Ritholtz?

  So it's funny, earlier we talked about how commoditized so much of the world has become, you're basically saying we need to be an integrated solutions provider and not just have these commoditized silos, which is what exists outside of a mega bank of banks like the NY.

• 41:31Speaker 04

  Yeah, so much that we used to talk about the, you know, concept of selling watches. You know, I think that, you know, the world doesn't really, it's it's hard to sell watches now. People, people are looking for, they need, you know, our clients are getting more efficient. They need to scale their operations as well. And it's the idea of like, do I want to work with 150 managers? Or am I better off working with 20, 30, or 40? And if I'm going to go from 150 different types of managers, you know, to 20 or 30, how do I pick those 20 or 30? What's going to differentiate that? So I think a lot of that is what's driving the need for scale. It's what's driving the need for consolidation, and it's also driving a lot of innovation.

• 42:16Barry Ritholtz?

  So you've mentioned technology a couple of times. We've talked about tokenization and a little bit about AI. What are the big technological trends that we can look for over the next couple of years? Where are you thinking about how technology is going to have the biggest impact on asset managers and on investors?

• 42:37Speaker 04

  Yeah, it's interesting. And honestly, I often, my narrative has changed. I used to say, look, AI is going to be very disruptive, but I have no idea if it's five years from now or 20 years from now. And by the way, that makes it very difficult to invest in it, right? Because it's, when are you going to get the returns for it? You know, clearly now, that's come into a lot more clarity. Because where, you know, AI has begun to already yield returns for firms, and BNY is no different, is on the productivity side, right? You know, I think BNY is one of the first firms to have digital employees. So digital employees that can work on real problems. And that's driving productivity increases.

• 43:19Speaker 04

  And that's kind of been a large part of the narrative with AI. Now, the new narrative is, it can also provide value add. So again, as an investor, do you have the capability of, instead of the old way of, we're going to look at satellite pictures and see how many cars are on the driver? Well, now, AI can actually track devices and kind of see where things are coming. AI is able to go through a lot more information and disseminate that information. So, you know, I still say that human beings with AI will be better than human beings without AI, i.e. you're still going to need the component for human

• 44:00Speaker 04

  beings in the mix. But so much of the future is unknown. And by the way, I think that's also the uneasy part that we are today in our markets. Because if you speak to individuals on one end, I can kind of picture and say, The economy is doing great. Uh, earnings, earnings are strong. Consumer household balance sheets are strong. Wages are still relatively, you know, strong um as well. Um, and there's a, there's a strong kind of like very constructive view to putting your money in the markets today, even at these valuations. The other side of that story is, okay, but then uh are we losing the independence of the Fed?

• 44:44Speaker 04

  Uh, are there geopolitical issues and wars out there that can also, you know, cause massive disruptions in, in, in the global economy? Policy issues, uh, you know, and fiscal issues coming to the forefront that could just be mistakes that happen. So at the same time, there's so many things then that, that can go wrong, right? If I always say we're probably at a all time high of things that can go wrong. Yet where you sit today should feel pretty good in terms of, you know, the, the economics and, and the economy. And I think technology is the same thing. It's like, wow, AI is going to be disruptive. Um, what we think AI can do is literally changing every week, every month.

• 45:27Speaker 04

  Uh, and again, that in many ways is exciting. In many ways, it's also extremely unsettling.

• 45:34Barry Ritholtz?

  To say the very least, since, since you brought up the current state of the world, uh, profits are all time highs, but it seems like risks are at all time highs. I wanna throw two of your own um quotes back at you and, and get your thoughts on it. In the beginning of this year, you said, risk assets are going higher. What led you to that conclusion and has the year played out as you expected?

• 46:00Speaker 04

  Clearly, look, I, I think, and I think there was a little bit, uh, I, I think I was challenged a little bit on that comment. And remember, I said it um right after liberation day. So the markets were obviously falling off.

• 46:11Barry Ritholtz?

  Mm hmm.

• 46:12Speaker 04

  There was a tremendous amount of concern with the tariffs and what would come. You know, I, I had two thoughts there. One, um, understanding that I thought the current administration that we have was going to about the carrot and the stick. And we started out the year with the stick, but you know what? The carrot was going to show up at some point.

• 46:29Barry Ritholtz?

  Mm hmm.

• 46:30Speaker 04

  And then two, this other view of You know, most of us don't have a choice to be risk off. Right? The idea that like, you know, being risk off through these different cycles hasn't really paid off. So the one thing we should do is like, go back and look at the fundamentals. But yes, if you're saying I'm going to just take a correlation of one or just take broad market exposure. It's more than, again, the academic conversation being more of an urgency. If you think about the, the actual conversation around I'm structured for solutions, for outcomes in my portfolio. Then why should you be risk off? You, you already planned for this. Um, right? I maybe plan to have part of my principal protected. Maybe plan to have certain amounts of yield or uncorrelated assets in my portfolio.

• 47:14Speaker 04

  So my viewpoint is again, one, the fundamentals are there to not say exit the market. But two, this should not always be around, should I buy this stock or that stock? Or should I go bonds or equities?

• 47:24Barry Ritholtz?

  Has to be broader.

• 47:25Speaker 04

  It has to be, it has to be broader because, you know, we're not a hedge fund. And a lot of what we do is not about that. It is about driving long-term outcomes.

• 47:35Barry Ritholtz?

  So another quote of yours that caught my attention was, noise is at all time highs. I totally agree, but explain your point of view.

• 47:46Speaker 04

  Yeah, and I'll explain it, I'll explain it both in terms of kind of the, where we are in our markets. And then also like, it's also like a personal philosophy. Um, one, this is what I mean by, things look very calm. Things look very constructive, yet we can, I think my team at the time, and this was back in January. I think there were like 26 or 30 different, like, press releases or things that happened. That kind of really jolted the markets in some way or caused concern. So the list of the things going on, whether it's inflation, whether it's political. Um, you know, the Fed, policy changes, wars, the list.

• 48:29Barry Ritholtz?

  It's endless.

• 48:29Speaker 04

  It's endless. So there's, that I think is at an all time high of the things like, okay, what's the list of what can go wrong? But then, you know, the other thing with noise, and I say this to my kids, I try to, I'm still trying to master this, is that in most cases, eighty percent of what you hear is just noise.

• 48:46Barry Ritholtz?

  Right. And already in stock prices.

• 48:48Speaker 04

  Yeah, it's there. It's like twenty percent actually matters. You know, I said to be a good investor, you have to be good at knowing what you don't know, but I also think you also have to be good at taking emotion off the table. You could see a lot, obviously, we're a pretty divided country politically. I always say like, don't bring that to your investing, right? So it's more like, take the emotion out. Don't let the noise suck you in. Go back and it's about the fundamentals, it's about what's in front of you, it's about your outcomes.

• 49:16Barry Ritholtz?

  I love the concept of knowing what you don't know. Let's address that. What are investors not talking about, not thinking about, but should? What topics, assets, geography, policy, data points, whatever? What is not at the forefront of many investors' minds, but maybe is getting overlooked?

• 49:38Speaker 04

  You know, and again, this is going to sound very simple, and it's been talked about since the beginning of our markets. You know, it's true diversification. And again, it sounds simple, but it's not, because you know, the old diversification is that seventy, thirty, sixty, forty, stocks, bonds. The markets are a lot more complex and sophisticated. That idea of having that conversation now around, let's talk about what I'm trying to accomplish, not, hey, I think large caps are hot now, so I'm going to put you in them. Hey, you know, you see technology stocks? I think technology is going to do really good.

• 50:19Speaker 04

  That, to me, is what's really being overlooked, is again, where I know a lot of people sit down with their advisors, and they're getting that academic... You know dissertation on you should be diversified. This is why this is how. But often the conversation falls right back to is it large caps, small caps? Is it tech stocks? Is it banks? Is it financials? Like that's not the right conversation. Even if it all to a public, it's it's everything. It's all of that and it's using technology and solutions and packages to create the right construct for individuals.

• 50:53Barry Ritholtz?

  Makes a lot of sense to me. I only have you for a couple of more minutes, so let's jump to our speed round, our favorite questions we ask all our guests, starting with who were your mentors? Who helped shape your career?

• 51:06Speaker 04

  You know, I've had so many and I'll tell you, you know, they started with family members. I've had professors, I've had, you know, the dean of the business school and then I in college, I felt like was a mentor to me. I have my previous bosses that I still stay in touch with and try to have lunch and dinner with. So I have many people that I can that I can kind of thank.

• 51:31Barry Ritholtz?

  Huh, that's very nice. Let's talk about books. What are some of your favorites? What are you reading right now?

• 51:37Speaker 04

  You know, there's a I'm not a I'm not a fiction guy, so most of what I read is nonfiction.

• 51:42Barry Ritholtz?

  I'm the same way.

• 51:43Speaker 04

  I love all the I love all the Michael Lewis's books. Recently read The Boys in the Boat. So I just love the story about people and I love I love reading about books that, you know, you see perseverance in human beings. Right now, as I I'll tell you, I'm not reading anything right now. I'm getting ready to read something and I and I'm wondering if it's going to stick. But I've been hearing a lot about the Meditations by Marcus Aurelius.

• 52:08Barry Ritholtz?

  Oh, sure.

• 52:09Speaker 04

  And I made the comment around 80% of things you hear is noise. My understanding is that book has a lot about that in there of like what you should really spend your time thinking about. So I was I was that synopsis and I've heard two people now mention it. So I say I'm getting ready to read that.

• 52:27Barry Ritholtz?

  Let me bastardize that for you and say what I took from that was recognize what's in your control and that's what you focus on. What the Fed's going to do, we can't control. Don't lose sleep over it. Accept it, it's going to be what it's going to be, but focus on the things you can control, you can change. Really, it has absolutely stood the test of time. And if you're a Michael Lewis fan, I'm gonna I'm gonna self promote. His most recent book that just came out, Who Is Government? We did a live Masters in Business in April. And I want to say the ratio of me speaking to him was probably 3% to 97%.

• 53:10Barry Ritholtz?

  For 90 minutes, he just regaled the audience with stories and had people in stitches. Absolutely hilarious stories about Billy Bean and Brad Pitt, tears down people's face.

• 53:21Speaker 04

  I'm gonna go listen to that.

• 53:23Barry Ritholtz?

  I'll find that for you.

• 53:24Speaker 04

  I'm gonna listen, yeah, absolutely.

• 53:25Barry Ritholtz?

  If you're a Michael Lewis fan, I think I've interviewed him 10, 12 times. That's my favorite interview. I heard stories I never heard before. He was just great.

• 53:36Speaker 04

  His books ruined all the movies that have come out off of his books. Cause they, none of them come close, in my opinion, to the actual book.

• 53:43Barry Ritholtz?

  So, I agree with you. The one that's closest is Moneyball. Is, at least, listen, The Big Short, I love the book. The movie wasn't bad. The Blind Side, the movie wasn't bad. But Moneyball really captured the moment of the film.

• 54:01Speaker 04

  I agree. Moneyball is probably the closest you got to the book.

• 54:04Barry Ritholtz?

  Yeah, no doubt about that. What about streaming? What are you watching on Netflix or Amazon Prime? Or what podcasts are you listening to?

• 54:13Speaker 04

  Yeah, you know, it's very similar to kind of the whole nonfiction thing. I'm a big fan of documentaries on Netflix. There's two things that I'll kind of do on streaming. It's watching The Men Who Built America.

• 54:24Barry Ritholtz?

  Really?

• 54:25Speaker 04

  Which is a great documentary. Just, again, it has, you know, the JP Morgans of the world, the Carnegie's of the world, Rockefellers and Vanderbilts. But what it shows you is the tremendous amount of risk that these individuals took. And it was a very different time in America. But I love, I love the documentaries. And then, and then shows what'll happen is, I don't watch a lot of TV. I will watch sports, but I'll hear things like Breaking Bad. Everyone talked about it. I was like, all of a sudden, you know, I'm watching it 10, 15 years after the fact. And then that led me to say, hey, there's this show Better Call Saul. So, I just went through the whole, not just went, but you know, I've been going through.

• 55:06Speaker 04

  Through the, I went through Breaking Bad and then like Better Call Saul and um so the only way I watch shows now is well, they came out five, seven years ago and now I'll go in and be like, okay, I'll, I'll dig in.

• 55:17Barry Ritholtz?

  We, so I have two things for you. We saw Mad Men during the pandemic. I never saw a single episode when it was on TV. Like, wow, this is amazing TV. And if you're a um documentary fan, the Billy Joel documentary, HBO, we're, we're like three quarters of the way through it. It's, it's just amazing.

• 55:35Speaker 04

  And I'm a, I'm a big Billy Joel fan. Um, and yeah, I thought it was uh, and again, it's, to me, it's just, it's history and people, right? You just kind of just learn, love learning about people and then especially for me, it's, I'm in awe of folk, of people who could do things I can't, right? Like, I'm in awe of a Billy Joel. When you hear about his process and what he does and you're like, it's hard not to get inspired by that.

• 55:57Barry Ritholtz?

  No, abs, a hundred percent. Um, our final two questions. What sort of advice would you give to a recent college grad interested in the career in, in investing?

• 56:07Speaker 04

  You know, the, the advice I give everybody coming out of school and you know, I, I think they're waiting to hear for some kind of special nugget on how they're gonna get ahead doing models or what deals and I'm like, do, do the easy things really well. Like, I did this intuitively, not knowing how important it was, which was, I, I came into Wall Street, you know, they're not gonna give, I was fresh out of school, they weren't gonna give me a big client, they weren't gonna give me a big model, but you know what? If someone said, I need copies, I ran and did copy, you know, I could do that, that I can do. Uh, hey, book, book a restaurant for a client dinner, hey, don't worry about it, I got it. Um, so to me, it's like, early, it's, life is never gonna be that easy in your career than when you're first out of school.

• 56:49Speaker 04

  Don't come in day one thinking about, how do I get on, how do I start traveling to meet clients and work the big deals? It's like, do the little things really, really well. That is how they're gonna be able to judge you early on.

• 57:02Barry Ritholtz?

  Good advice. And our final question, what do you know about the world of investing today you wish you knew thirty-five or so years ago when you were first starting out?

• 57:13Speaker 04

  Yeah, I think it goes back to the when I first started learning those lessons of don't pay attention to the noise, pay attention to what really matters. So you know, earlier on, it's hard not to get emotional about investing. Sometimes it's hard even not to get completely kind of, you know, you and I watch for this in our PMs, like PMs can fall in love sometimes even with companies, stocks and even management teams. That ability to now say, hey, in all these cases, be objective. Remind yourself, be good at knowing what you don't know. Take emotion off. Focus on what really should matter, not all the noise that's surrounding it.

• 57:52Barry Ritholtz?

  So, so interesting. Jose, thank you for being so generous with your time. We have been speaking with Jose Minaya. He's Global Head of BNY Investments and Wealth, managing $2.2 trillion. If you enjoy this conversation, well, be sure and check out any of the 550 we've done over the past 11 years. You can find those at Bloomberg, iTunes, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts from. Be sure to check out my new book, How Not to Invest: The Ideas, Numbers, and Behaviors That Destroy Wealth and How to Avoid Them, How Not to Invest at your favorite bookseller. I would be remiss if I did not thank the

• 58:36Barry Ritholtz?

  crack team that helps put these conversations together each week. And I really mean this. Alexis Noriega and Anna Luke are my producers. Sean Russo is my researcher. Sage Baumann is the head of podcasts at Bloomberg. I'm Barry Ritholtz. You've been listening to Masters in Business on Bloomberg Radio.

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