ENCORE: The Memory Maker Part 1 | 159

We’ll be back in two weeks with all-new Scamfluencers episodes. In the meantime, we’re returning to one of our favorites. After surviving a difficult childhood, Teal Swan starts a family and reinvents herself as a spiritual leader for the Internet age. She gains a huge following by talking openly about a wide-range of topics, including taboo mental health issues. In her videos, she’s warm, candid, and relatable. But her unconventional approach may have some dark consequences. If you or someone you know is struggling with mental health, the U. S. National Suicide Prevention Lifeline can be reached at 1-800-273-8255. The U. S. National Alliance on Mental Illness is available at 1-800-950-6264. If you or someone you know is a victim of sexual assault, you can contact the National Sexual Assault Hotline in the US by calling 1-800-656-4673. That's 1-800-656-4673. Be the first to know about Wondery’s newest podcasts, curated recommendations, and more! Sign up now at https://wondery.fm/wonderynewsletter Listen to Scamfluencers on the Wondery App or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen early and ad-free on Wondery+. Join Wondery+ in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Start your free trial by visiting wondery.com/links/scamfluencers/ http://wondery.com/links/scamfluencers/ now. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Sarah Hagi?

  Audible subscribers can listen to all our episodes of Scamfluencers ad-free right now. Join Audible today by downloading the Audible app.

• 0:08Scaachi Koul?

  Hi, guys. We'll be back in two weeks with all new episodes that we're really excited about. But in the meantime, we're returning to one of our favorite two-part episodes about a spiritual influencer gone wild.

• 0:20Sarah Hagi?

  That's right. This is the story of Teal Swan, a wellness guru perfectly suited for the internet age. Teal amassed millions of followers under the guise of healing. But not everyone thinks what she's doing is healthy. She's been accused of making up an outrageous origin story featuring satanic rituals and abuse, and of emotionally and financially manipulating her followers. Some people even think she's running a cult.

• 0:46Scaachi Koul?

  Oh, a real piece of work. And speaking of questionable spiritual leaders, before we get into today's episode, we have to tell you about Wondery's new series, Don't Cross Cat.

• 0:57Sarah Hagi?

  Don't Cross Cat unveils an even more sinister tale of how social media influence can be weaponized. Like Teal Swan's story, it begins with charming promises of transformation. But unlike Teal's spiritual teachings, Cat Torres's web of deception spirals into something far more criminal.

• 1:15Scaachi Koul?

  When a young woman named Desiree vanishes without a trace, her best friend launches a desperate search to find her. The trail leads to Cat Torres, a charismatic influencer with millions of followers. Cat is a self-proclaimed witch who says she has supernatural powers. On social media, it looks like she has a picture-perfect life. And she promises her followers things like alien baths and a spiritual awakening if they follow her lead. But behind the glamorous posts and inspirational quotes lies a sinister truth.

• 1:46Sarah Hagi?

  From Wondery, Don't Cross Cat is a chilling investigation that asks the question, if an influencer promised you a dream life, what would you sacrifice? Based on the Brazilian true crime saga that captivated a nation, Don't Cross Cat is a story of ambition, control, and the lives destroyed by empty promises.

• 2:06Scaachi Koul?

  After you listen to our two-part series on Teal Swan, binge all episodes of Don't Cross Cat ad-free on Wondery Plus. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.

• 2:19Speaker 02

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• 2:51Speaker 03

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• 3:21Sarah Hagi?

  A note to our listeners. Today's episode includes discussions of mental health, self-harm, suicide, child abuse, sexual assault, and violence. Please listen with care.

• 3:39Sarah Hagi?

  Sachi, I have a question for you. If you're ever going through it, how likely are you to turn to YouTube or TikTok for advice? No, I wouldn't do it. I am in the same boat. As you know, TikTok does scare me. To be fair, there are legit therapists and professionals who do guide people to seek help. But the person I'm about to introduce you to is, safe to say, not one of those people. Yeah, I figured. Well, this woman alleges to have a supernatural gift she uses to heal the world and, of course, becomes super famous along the way.

• 4:19Sarah Hagi?

  In November 2013, a striking, willowy woman in her 30s with cat-like eyes and long, dark hair strides onto a stage in London. She's wearing glittery sandals and a dress that looks like a watercolor painting. She sits down in one of two chairs in the center of the stage, flanked by flowers and healing crystals. She's grinning from ear to ear, soaking up the applause from the crowd of more than 400 people. This is the woman who will come to be known as Teal Swan. Teal's a spiritual teacher with a huge online following, and her most dedicated fans pay to see her in person at workshops like this one.

• 4:59Sarah Hagi?

  She's a natural onstage, she's warm, a good listener, and she makes people laugh. During these events, Teal invites a few people up to have one-on-one conversations with her in front of the entire audience. She leads the volunteers through conversations about painful and personal things, their fears and trauma, the ways they feel stuck or lonely, or even want to give up on life entirely. Teal makes them feel like they're a part of a community, surrounded by others who struggle with similar challenges. It's kind of like group therapy, but with hundreds of strangers.

• 5:35Scaachi Koul?

  Yeah, I mean, people really love public psychotherapy in like a kind of maudlin, performative format, so it makes sense that people are really into this.

• 5:48Sarah Hagi?

  Yeah, I mean, I guess it's a way to feel less alone with your feelings and trauma, which I understand.

• 5:54Scaachi Koul?

  Yeah.

• 5:55Sarah Hagi?

  Well, Teal's onstage for six hours during this session in London, but to her, it feels like just a few minutes. When the workshop is over, the crowd swarms her. But outside of her tribe, critics accuse her of running a cult. They say she might be encouraging clients to believe in false memories of trauma and abuse, which Teal denies. And if that sounds a little intense, well, Sachi, it's only the beginning. Teal's on a mission to heal the world, and the consequences, they might be deadly.

• 6:38Sarah Hagi?

  From Wondery, I'm Sarah Hagi. And I'm Sachi Cole. And this is Scamfluencers.

• 6:51Sarah Hagi?

  In this episode, we're diving into the story of Teal Swan, a spiritual leader perfectly suited for the internet age. She may not be a household name, but she's built an online empire with millions of followers. This is a two-part series, and it covers a ton of ground. From the satanic panic of the 80s and 90s to the girl-boss feminism of the 2010s. Teal's story is a study in self-mythology, memory, and the very nature of reality itself. This is The Memory Maker, Part One.

• 7:28Sarah Hagi?

  Teal's origin story is really intense, and it plays a big role in her mythology. In the 1980s, she grows up in a small town in Utah. And she feels different. She's not Mormon, like most of the other kids. But there's another, more complex reason why she struggles to fit in. She can see, feel, and hear so much more than everyone else around her. She describes it later in an interview with a local show called Park City TV.

• 7:59Speaker 04

  I was kind of born seeing the things that I see. I don't see air as negative space. It all looks like energy fields that are running into each other. So, to me, from my perception, I'm breathing in your energy right now and vice versa.

• 8:13Sarah Hagi?

  Teal feels alone, so she turns inward. She even invents a secret language of hieroglyphics to use in her diary. Her parents try everything they can think of. They take her to psychologists, and psychiatrists, and even a psychic. But nothing really helps. One thing that does seem to help is spending time with animals. So when Teal is around six years old, her parents start having her spend time with a local veterinarian she calls Doc. Doc's into something called quantum healing and other new age stuff. Teal's parents hope he can help her manage her extra sensory gift. But Doc winds up being far from helpful. And actually, Teal claims he abuses her.

• 8:58Sarah Hagi?

  She says Doc brought her into a satanic cult called The Blood Covenant and exposed her to horrific, repeated sexual, emotional, and psychological abuse throughout her childhood and teenage years. Teal alleges that he forced her to get three abortions, which he performed because he got her pregnant, and that he tells her he's her real father and that she's a demon. She says Doc threatened to kill her family and her horses if she told anyone what was happening. Through their lawyer, Teal and her parents declined to comment on any of the allegations in this story. To be clear, Doc has denied abusing Teal, and he's never been charged with any kind of crime related to these allegations.

• 9:40Sarah Hagi?

  Some of the things Teal says happened to her as a child are so graphic and disturbing that, at times, some of them seem pretty implausible. For example, in an interview on the Shadowland Voyagers podcast, Teal says Doc knew a funeral director who helped him do all sorts of gruesome things to her.

• 9:59Speaker 04

  He'd take me into the mortician's office late at night, and when I was about, I'd say, eight years old, he ended up sewing me into a body and leaving me there for about 12 hours.

• 10:08Scaachi Koul?

  He sewed her into a body?

• 10:11Sarah Hagi?

  I mean, yes, that is what she says, yeah.

• 10:14Scaachi Koul?

  I have several questions about the feasibility of such an act. I don't doubt that he's abusing her, but what she is describing is nonsense?

• 10:23Sarah Hagi?

  Yeah, I mean, I have actually been thinking about this for weeks.

• 10:27Scaachi Koul?

  Great.

• 10:28Sarah Hagi?

  And it doesn't make more sense the more you try and make sense of it. I'll just say that much.

• 10:32Scaachi Koul?

  That is, that is promising for my mental breakdown that I will have later in this episode.

• 10:36Sarah Hagi?

  Well, by the time she's a teenager, Teal is incredibly depressed. She starts cutting and tries to take her own life. And though Teal's story is horrific, it leads to some pretty big questions. And someone from Teal's past raises even more questions about Teal's origin story.

• 10:57Sarah Hagi?

  Diana Hansen Rivera is nine years old when she meets Teal. They bond over their mutual love of animals. In a picture from that time, Diana is blonde with rosy cheeks and a big smile. She moved to Teal's neighborhood after her parents divorce, and she's in a really bad place mentally. Diana was interviewed on a podcast called Mormon Stories, and she says that at a sleepover early on in their friendship, Teal offers her shots of Irish cream. She also says that Teal showed her disturbing pornography, including hardcore BDSM and bestiality. Teal declined to comment on this, and Diana did not respond to our request for comment. But Diana told Mormon Stories that Teal seems to enjoy testing her boundaries.

• 11:42Speaker 05

  She almost seemed like she was excited to see the shock effect it had on me just because I was so disturbed by these things. They scared me. She's like, oh, you wouldn't believe how dark the world is.

• 11:58Sarah Hagi?

  I don't want to diagnose anybody because obviously I don't know anything, but to be this young and to be pushing boundaries like this with a friend you made is kind of textbook for kids who've been abused. It's clear that Teal has learned this from somewhere. She's just a little kid, too. Yeah, it's definitely very complicated. Diana is depressed. She struggles with an eating disorder. And when she's around 12 or 13, she cuts herself for the first time. Afterwards, she goes to Teal's house and tells her what she's done. And Teal points to a possible reason for Diana's mental health struggles. Maybe she's been abused. Diana says she doesn't have any memory of being abused,

• 12:41Sarah Hagi?

  but she worries, what if she just blocked it all out? So she goes to the bishop at her church. That opens up a whole can of worms. Suddenly, Diana is being interviewed by a counselor, and the police get involved. Ultimately, she says they conclude she hasn't been abused, but the whole ordeal is traumatic. Diana is reminded of this incident years later when she hears Teal's story about doc, the ritual abuse, and the satanic ceremonies. Diana says on Mormon Stories that if someone had abducted Teal from her home in the middle of the night, she probably would have known.

• 13:17Speaker 05

  It's so improbable. And I had sleepovers at her house. She was never getting these calls to magically wake up at 3 a.m. and leave.

• 13:24Sarah Hagi?

  Again, Teal declined to comment on Diana's allegations. Diana doesn't discount the possibility that Teal might have experienced some kind of abuse growing up, but likely not the satanic ritual kind. As they get older, Teal and Diana lose touch. But Teal's about to find her first follower, someone who believes her story not just about her abuse, but also about her special abilities.

• 13:53Sarah Hagi?

  A few years later, in the spring of 2003, Blake Dyer comes home and is shocked to find Teal in his bathtub. She's covered in blood from self-harm injuries. She's 19, the same age as Blake, and she's run away from home. She apparently broke into his house through a window. Blake is tall, with shoulder-length blond hair. He and Teal met at a party recently, and they had an instant connection. He brought her to his house once to show off his hacky sack collection. Now Blake helps Teal clean up and bandage her cuts. She tells him she came here because she didn't know where else to go, that he's the first person she can really trust. And he says, she can crash with him as long as she wants.

• 14:38Scaachi Koul?

  Teal is really in like a trauma vortex her whole life, it seems like.

• 14:42Sarah Hagi?

  Yeah. As they get to know each other better, Teal tells Blake about her childhood in the Blood Covenant cult and her abuser Doc. She says Doc had a habit of drugging her with ketamine to keep her from rebelling, but that he messed up the dosing, which left her clear-minded enough to run away. They move in together and pretty soon start dating. But ultimately, they decide they're better off as friends. They keep living together and remained super close. Blake feels like Teal is the first person to really see him. She's his family. He can't imagine walking away from her, so he decides he'll stay by her side, even if it means her needs come first.

• 15:24Sarah Hagi?

  About a year later, when Teal is around 20 years old, she starts seeing a therapist named Barbara Snow. Barbara's got blonde, feathered hair, and she seems totally different from the cold, clinical psychologists Teal saw as a kid. She's warm and kind, and she cries when Teal tells her her story. I actually have a picture of her. Sachi, could you please describe Barbara?

• 15:48Scaachi Koul?

  Oh, Barbara is from the 80s. She's got a real, like... There's a lot of hairspray in this hair. She's got that cockatiel sort of hair part on the top. I mean, she looks like a nice lady. I don't know, she looks like a school counselor. I would probably tell her something intimate and uncomfortable about myself in the 7th grade.

• 16:09Sarah Hagi?

  Yeah, but Barbara's practices are much darker than her appearance would suggest. She was actually a major part of a phenomenon called the Satanic Panic. Sachi, what do you know about the Satanic Panic?

• 16:22Scaachi Koul?

  A lot. I know that it was kind of this cultural movement that started in the 80s where there was a lot of fear and anxiety around satanic cults, and they were specifically tied to a lot of kids having these false, recovered memories, you know, quote-unquote memories, of being sexually abused, usually in a cult setting.

• 16:43Sarah Hagi?

  Yes. Around this time, the Satanic Panic is totally mainstream, and it really takes hold in Utah, even after the FBI releases a report that finds no evidence of occult sacrifice happening anywhere in the US. But Barbara believes ritual abuse is a major problem. In the 1992 documentary, "Promise Not to Tell," she says she was even involved in counseling victims in at least one of the cases.

• 17:10Speaker 06

  We had as many as 12 children who were talking about extremely aberrant sexual behavior that included multiple perpetrators with a high proportion of women, the use of blood, with blood being smeared on the children and them drinking blood, feces and urine, their collection and the passing of it in a circle.

• 17:32Scaachi Koul?

  I know that all of this at the time was legitimately scary to people. And I get it, it was a long time ago. People had different access to information. But at the same time, like, I worship the devil and all I'm gonna do is like, drink some poop? Come on, I'm worshiping the devil. I'm gonna do way cooler things and eat poop.

• 17:53Sarah Hagi?

  Also, the way she's talking about it, which like the use of blood with blood being smeared on the children, them drinking feces and urine. And we're kind of like, are you enjoying saying these words out loud? Yeah. And like a lot of other therapists at this time, Barbara believes that her clients have gone through something so traumatic, they've repressed all memories of it. Her role is to help them remember their abuse so they can heal and bring the perpetrators to justice. But the concept of repressed memories is controversial. Researchers and clinicians aren't even sure it's possible to repress memories. The debate is so heated in clinical psychology circles, it's called the memory wars.

• 18:35Sarah Hagi?

  And a recent study showed that despite a ton of empirical evidence that repressed memories are, at best, scientifically questionable, more than half of clinical psychologists still believe in it. There's also evidence that it's possible to implant false memories, which is what the FBI suggests may have happened in the Satanic Panic. In their report, they say that overzealous interveners push a specific narrative of what they think happened when questioning kids. These are basically well-meaning adults who ask leading questions and the kids make things up to match those stories. Then they start to think that's what actually happened to them.

• 19:15Scaachi Koul?

  Yeah, I mean, I don't know if repressed memories are feasible or not. I'm not a psychiatrist, I don't know anything, but... I do think it's easier to implant a false memory in a child than have a child like fully repress an incredibly traumatic experience like the ones that are being described here.

• 19:34Sarah Hagi?

  Yeah.

• 19:35Scaachi Koul?

  And you're doing it with the most vulnerable people who are little kids who are being asked, like, hey, did somebody touch you over and over again? You know, I can see it.

• 19:42Sarah Hagi?

  Yeah. I mean, it is clear that Barbara's practices are based on shaky theory, at least.

• 19:48Scaachi Koul?

  Right.

• 19:49Sarah Hagi?

  But when Teal comes to see her in the mid 2000s, she helps her process her childhood abuse. Teal later says that Barbara only helps her recover a few memories about Doc. The rest were already there. With Barbara's help, she's putting her life back together and finally feels strong enough to speak about what she's been through. Her story will serve as the backbone for her spiritual teachings, a badge of suffering and transcendence that will inspire millions to listen to her message.

• 20:25Speaker 07

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• 20:55Speaker 08

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• 21:51Sarah Hagi?

  After seeing Barbara for a few years, Thiel, now in her early twenties, decides to contact the police about her childhood abuse. She actually spoke with the cops a few years earlier. When they said they'd have to involve Doc in the investigation, Thiel told them to hold off. She's still scared of him. But now, she says she's ready to move forward. Thiel gives the police her diaries as evidence of what was happening to her at that time. But some passages are written in that special hieroglyphic language she created. And the police are basically like, "We can't read this." And when they perform a medical exam, they don't find any evidence of ritual abuse. There's no scarring or marks that match with Thiel's descriptions of what happened to her.

• 22:35Scaachi Koul?

  This is sort of the strange thing about this story. I do think that somebody abused Thiel as a child. But she's clearly in some space, even in her adulthood, where she feels like she has to tell the most bombastic version of an abuse story. And it physically isn't really that possible. There's no physical markings, and there would be based on what she's talking about.

• 22:58Sarah Hagi?

  Yeah. Well, then the police start looking into Barbara Snow and discover her history with ritual abuse cases. By this point, there's a more widespread understanding that a vast network of murderous satanic cults is not actually a thing. And around this time, Barbara Snow is placed under investigation by the state of Utah's Division of Occupational and Professional Licensing. She's allegedly been treating some of her own relatives, which is a huge therapist no-no. And allegedly, she's been giving them false memories of being sexually abused. At one point, she goes to a relative's house to allegedly destroy a computer with a baseball bat.

• 23:41Sarah Hagi?

  So Barbara goes on voluntary probation, and the state drops the investigation. We actually looked up her license for social work in Utah, and at the time of this recording, it is still active. Thiel's no longer seeing Barbara. But she's learned some crucial lessons about memory and healing. And she's ready to start sharing what she knows with the world.

• 24:10Sarah Hagi?

  A few years later, when Teal's in her mid-20s, she starts spending a lot of time at a new age bookstore in Salt Lake City called The Cosmic Spiral. It's a cozy spot full of crystals, tarot cards, singing bowls, and books about spirituality. Teal does energy healing sessions here and develops a following. By now, she's married to a man named Mark Scott, and they have a son named Winter. Having a kid changes everything for Teal. She later writes that her son was born with "a crystal aura", which she believes only belongs to people with "innate extrasensory abilities". She later says she realizes that if she wants to help her son embrace his abilities,

• 24:54Sarah Hagi?

  she first has to embrace her own. It's a total lightbulb moment, and it gives her a renewed sense of purpose. Teal wants to tell the world about her past, share what she's learned, and, hopefully, help others who are struggling. Also, around this time, Teal writes her first book, The Sculptor in the Sky. It's about the universe and how to achieve happiness. She goes on Park City TV to promote it.

• 25:21Speaker 04

  This book, The Sculptor in the Sky, is basically an informative book about the universe and the way that it works in terms of the energy that is making up all that is us. And it goes on to explain why happiness is an important commodity, not just for people individually, but for the universe at large.

• 25:41Sarah Hagi?

  Oh, and she's selling some original artwork. She calls them "frequency paintings", and says they have vibrations that can heal people. Here's a picture of one of the paintings. Sachi, can you describe it?

• 25:54Scaachi Koul?

  This is very ugly, and if anybody's vibration looks like this, I do not want to spend time with that person. It appears to just be a cataclysm of primary colors. It looks like a child, like, just colored in a bunch of lines. Yeah, it's these symmetrical, geometric, very, very colorful pieces of art. And yeah, it looks like something like you do in gray.

• 26:17Sarah Hagi?

  And your teacher's like, wow, good eye. Yeah. Well, Sachi, these sell for up to $1,000. And some people love them, including a married couple named John and Wesley Waynesguard. John has floppy gray hair and a thick gray mustache. And Leslie has dyed red hair and a toothy grin. They look like they could be Teal's parents' age, and they're deep into new age stuff. They believe in Teal's message and actually help her launch her career by organizing her first spiritual workshop. They pay for the venue and even take tickets at the door. There's only about 20 people in the audience, but Teal is poised and confident.

• 26:59Sarah Hagi?

  At 27 years old, she's ready to step into the spotlight and spread her beliefs. And she's about to find the perfect medium for her brand of self-directed teachings: the internet.

• 27:13Sarah Hagi?

  In 2011, Teal starts making videos for this new website called YouTube, where she posts about, well, kind of everything.

• 27:22Speaker 04

  Hello, everyone. I figured a good topic for today would be energy vampirism. Weight gain is an external reflection of a deep internal problem. Today, in response to popular requests, this video is going to be about autism. Christmas has become our excuse to come into alignment with philanthropy, with demonstrations of love.

• 27:40Sarah Hagi?

  Some of the videos getting the most traffic are ones where she talks candidly about suicide and self-harm, like this video called "What to Do If You Are Suicidal."

• 27:50Speaker 04

  Right now, you do not have proof the earth is anything but suffering, and you have no reason to believe that it will get better. There is nothing wrong with you for feeling this way.

• 27:58Sarah Hagi?

  A lot of people land on this video through search results or algorithm recommendations, because it turns out, Teal is really, really good at social media. To help understand Teal's rise, we reached out to Jennings Brown. He's a journalist and the host of the Gateway Podcast, all about Teal Swan. He first learned about Thiel when he was going through a hard time and was spending hours on YouTube.

• 28:23Speaker 09

  YouTube kept recommending these videos by this woman staring deep into the screen and was very magnetic and in like, you know, the hypnotic background. And I was just very fascinated.

• 28:33Sarah Hagi?

  He's right that Thiel's videos are kind of like woo-woo ASMR. And Scaachi, I need to show you this video. It's from five years ago and it says, "Can you sell your soul to the devil? Should you protect your soul from demons?" It's just kind of like a very weird close-up frame of her basically shoulder up, speaking to the camera with like a green screen graphic. She's definitely not trying to be trendy.

• 29:01Scaachi Koul?

  No, she's not. She's trying to be enticing, which I kind of think is working. I feel like if I was particularly lost on a given day, I would watch this whole thing and try to find meaning in it.

• 29:13Sarah Hagi?

  Yeah. Jennings says that Thiel's advantage was in getting on YouTube early and covering a lot of ground.

• 29:20Speaker 09

  Here's this example of somebody who was kind of using the tools of the internet to build a new brand of spirituality. It was more than just an influencer. It was more than just a spiritual guru.

• 29:30Sarah Hagi?

  Jennings says Thiel uses search engine optimization, or SEO, to appear higher on search results and to target vulnerable people looking for videos on sensitive topics like depression, addiction, and suicide.

• 29:44Speaker 09

  She was really perfect for kind of that YouTube algorithm in that no matter what you were looking for, there was probably a Thiel Swan video about it. And especially videos about things that a lot of people didn't want to talk about.

• 29:56Sarah Hagi?

  Also, we have to remember that Thiel has no real qualifications as a mental health expert. She's not licensed and doesn't have a degree in psychology, but her online influence is exploding. More people are finding her content. And the story of her traumatic past helps her build trust and position herself as an authentic expert in human suffering. But soon, her blunt approach to super sensitive topics is going to crash into real life.

• 30:32Sarah Hagi?

  In the year after joining YouTube, Teal also sees clients in real life for healing sessions at her house. And she spends a lot of time with Leslie Wainsgarde, the friend who helped her put on her first workshop. Leslie and her husband, John, have become totally devoted followers. But Leslie's not doing well. Teal's been helping her uncover some repressed memories. And Leslie comes to believe that she was abused by her own father. Leslie's father passed away several years ago, but her mother reportedly denies the allegations. Jennings spoke with Leslie's husband, John, for the Gateway Podcast. And John says Leslie has a family history of mental illness and has been taking antidepressants,

• 31:16Sarah Hagi?

  but she's not happy about it. She struggles with some of the drug's side effects. And according to John, she might also feel like the medicine is blocking her spiritual development. So John says she stops taking them. After that, she says she becomes, quote, "literally catatonic", spending all day in bed and barely eating. John later told Jennings on the Gateway Podcast...

• 31:41Speaker 10

  Because Teal can see these things. She said she'd never seen a human being that's still alive, who's so, so badly wants to get out of the body.

• 31:51Sarah Hagi?

  I mean, it's pretty heavy stuff. Even the language of it, "a human being that's still alive, whose soul so badly wants to get out of the body", to me is like, that is just so far gone. It's like she's basically saying, "I've never met someone more suicidal in my life." I guess, yeah. I don't know if this is helpful in any context. Well, one day in May 2012, John says he discovers Leslie in her bed, not breathing. After struggling with suicidal feelings, she's taken her own life. John is shocked and heartbroken. So he calls a person he trusts most for spiritual guidance: Teal. But Teal doesn't answer. She's out of cellphone range on a trip to the desert to

• 32:35Sarah Hagi?

  watch an eclipse. We can't say why Leslie took her own life. John believes Teal had nothing to do with it, and he's still very devoted to her. But it is clear that Teal is working with vulnerable people and encouraging them to fixate on trauma from their past. People are flocking to her, online and in real life. Teal has enormous power over her devoted followers, and she is not afraid to use it.

• 33:08Speaker 11

  Hi, I'm Kenya Paris.

• 33:09Speaker 12

  And I'm Malcolm Gladwell. We're back for season two of our Audible original podcast, The Unusual Suspects.

• 33:15Speaker 11

  We'll sit down with extraordinary guests from the worlds of art, film, literature, comedy, and wellness to hear from their unexpected stories of success.

• 33:22Speaker 12

  And who do we have this season? Well, we'll talk with Grammy-winning artist Anderson Paak, athlete Richard Roll, portrait artist Amy Sherald, Oscar-winning director Ron Howard, legendary writer David Sedaris, and many more. These conversations are more intimate than last season, wouldn't you say?

• 33:38Speaker 11

  I would. Listen to season one of The Unusual Suspects wherever you get your podcasts, and sign up for a free trial Audible to listen to season two in the Audible app or by subscribing to Apple Podcasts.

• 33:55Speaker 13

  I'm Gemma Whelan, and in the new season of The Spy Who, we tell the story of the original femme fatale, the spy who was Mata Hari. A famous dancer turned World War I secret agent, accused of seducing Allied officers to uncover their plans. But was she a temptress or a scapegoat for French failures? Follow The Spy Who now, wherever you listen to podcasts. You can also listen to the full season of The Spy Who Was Mata Hari early and ad-free on Audible.

• 34:35Sarah Hagi?

  It's 2012 and Jared Dobson is watching a YouTube video of Thiel Swan. She's talking about suffering and how to make it go away. Jared's in his late twenties with feathered, dirty blond hair, and he feels miserable. He recently got divorced and lives far from his ex and their young daughter. He's quit his job and he feels suicidal. That's when he Googles "Utah spiritual guide" and finds Thiel Swan. He looks up all of her teachings online and even reads her book. We interviewed Jared and he says he was immediately hooked.

• 35:12Speaker 14

  I was like, "Oh, I need help," and her frequency paintings will heal you if you have them. Look at them. So I went to buy a frequency painting and talked with her for a few hours. And she's just like, "Oh, there's so much you just don't know yet. You're just beginning your journey."

• 35:29Sarah Hagi?

  A few months later, Jared says he goes to see her in Park City, Utah, where she's living in an intentional community with her husband Mark, their kid Winter, business partner slash ex-boyfriend slash friend Blake, and some other followers and volunteers who are helping spread her teachings. Jared says he tells Thiel just how desperate he is for help. And she gives him a private healing session for around $150. Jared says that Thiel presses her hands on his stomach and does some stuff to his chakras. He says that the whole thing is confusing. On the one hand, Thiel's paying attention to him. She's asking him deep probing questions about how he's feeling,

• 36:13Sarah Hagi?

  the kind of questions that Jared's been craving. Thiel gets him to open up, and it feels really good. It's a release. But on the other hand, Jared says that Teal is also lying next to him, pulling up his shirt and playing with his stomach. It's uncomfortable. It feels like she's crossing a boundary. He wonders, is she coming on to him?

• 36:36Scaachi Koul?

  Yeah, something is awry.

• 36:38Sarah Hagi?

  Well, Jared says Teal also talks about trying to grow her business. So he volunteers to build her a new website for free. He truly believes in Teal's mission, which he says is to raise the vibration of the entire planet. Pretty soon, Jared moves in with Teal and her family. Teal and her husband Mark have their room. Blake has his room. And Jared sleeps on a cot in Blake's room. There are maybe four other Teal followers who live in a nearby apartment. Finally, Jared has a community and a sense of purpose. Teal makes him uncomfortable sometimes, but it also seems like she really cares about him. And he thinks she knows how to heal him. So he goes all in.

• 37:23Sarah Hagi?

  He believes that she's going to make him a better person and that they're going to save the world together. But soon, Jared sees the darker side of his new guru.

• 37:35Sarah Hagi?

  Jared and Teal start spending a lot of time together building her website. And he says she keeps getting touchy feely with him. Jared's confused. He's drawn to Teal, but she's still married to Mark, and they all live together. Jared says he tells Teal the cuddly stuff makes him feel awkward. But Teal doesn't seem to listen.

• 37:57Scaachi Koul?

  This is like textbook harassment.

• 38:00Sarah Hagi?

  That's exactly what it sounds like.

• 38:01Scaachi Koul?

  I imagine it was maybe tough for Jared to fully recognize, because I think for men, it's a little tougher, especially when women are doing it, because they're conditioned to think like, this is great. I'm so lucky. This girl's into me. And on top of it, Jared is in like, it sounds like a really desperate place. He really needs help. And so the person he's turned to for help is weaponizing that intimacy in a way that feels so unfair.

• 38:23Sarah Hagi?

  Yeah, that's pretty spot on. And it doesn't end there. Jared says that Teal keeps escalating things with him.

• 38:32Speaker 14

  Teal begins to like, say, we're meant to be together. Like, how come you won't be with me? And this is supposed to happen. You're the one for me. You've always been the one. I've been waiting for you for across all timeline.

• 38:47Sarah Hagi?

  Jared begins to think it's his mission in life to be with Teal. But Teal's husband, Mark, isn't having it. He kicks Jared out of the house and Jared goes to stay with his grandparents. But that separation doesn't slow Teal and Jared down. Jared says they go on a date and have sex in the back of her car. Pretty soon, he moves into Teal's bedroom and Teal's husband moves into a separate room. Through her lawyer, Teal declined to comment on her relationship with Jared. The hell of this is so tragic. And Sachi, their relationship is super intense. Jared gets a remote computer programming job that makes good money, which he uses to help pay Teal's mortgage. Basically, whatever

• 39:32Sarah Hagi?

  Teal needs money for. In a later YouTube video, Teal denies Jared ever gave her money. Jared says that he and Teal talk about getting married and having a kid together. Jared believes they're soulmates and says he'd do anything for Teal. At one point, he says,

• 39:50Speaker 14

  She asked me, what would you be willing to do for me or for this cause? And I was like, I'd be willing to kill someone and bury them in the backyard. And she's like, wow, that is really fucked up.

• 40:03Scaachi Koul?

  I mean, that is fucked up. I wouldn't do that for anybody.

• 40:06Sarah Hagi?

  Yeah.

• 40:06Scaachi Koul?

  Her response is insane because she asked a truly ludicrous question and she got a ludicrous answer. So her response is also incredibly unfair, but his answer is fucked up.

• 40:18Sarah Hagi?

  Yeah, it's kind of like, how far would you go for me? And then they tell you how far. And it's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, back up. You're crazy. You're like, well, not that. That's insane. I don't know. I guess everyone has their limit. That's Teal's.

• 40:29Scaachi Koul?

  All right.

• 40:30Sarah Hagi?

  Jared also told us, Teal made him take a new name because she says his birth name doesn't suit him.

• 40:38Speaker 14

  She said like, your soul, your essence, your stream, whatever. Like, your name is not a vibrational match for who you are.

• 40:47Sarah Hagi?

  He says that Thiel names him Fallon. And sometimes, she says, he's acting like Jared. That means having human needs. And she needs him to be Fallon, AKA do whatever Thiel wants. Thiel says she wants him to be more authentic. But Jared says any sense of self he had is fading away. And when he's confronted with dark secrets about his own past, he'll reach rock bottom.

• 41:15Sarah Hagi?

  After Thiel gives him a new name, Jared says she starts doing repressed memory work with him. And it turns out, he also has memories of abuse to uncover. But Jared's memories aren't just about being a victim. He says he also recovers supposed memories of committing acts of violence.

• 41:35Speaker 14

  I'd lay down and I'd just would like start creating things that like never happened, like driving in a white van with my dad and like picking up children.

• 41:45Scaachi Koul?

  She seems to want a lot of the people around her to have trauma. She clearly has trauma. She wants other people to have it too. And it always seems to be the same kind.

• 41:55Sarah Hagi?

  Yeah, I feel like one thing about Thiel is that she really believes that trauma is a strength.

• 42:01Scaachi Koul?

  Yeah, you get something from it by like really being able to point it out. But, but it's always the same type. It's not like no one's ever resurfacing something she did herself. It's always like this thing that happened with my family that I've never had any concept of until now.

• 42:18Sarah Hagi?

  Yeah. And all of these quote unquote memories cause tension. Thiel blogs about Jared, calling him abusive and a psychopath. It seems like a weird power move. And a lot of her followers start to hate him. Jared says that at one point, Thiel encourages him to kill himself. Thiel says in a video that this never happened and that her life's work is trying to help people to not commit suicide. She calls Jared a quote, "disgruntled ex-lover with an axe to grind." Meanwhile, Jared's recovered memories continue to feel like nightmares. In one, Jared says he visualizes being sent to kill Thiel,

• 43:01Sarah Hagi?

  but accidentally kills her son, Winter. When he tells Thiel about it, he says she threatens to call the police and kicks him out of the house. Not long after, Jared checks into a psychiatric center in Salt Lake City. Teal's on her way up. She's gaining followers and influence every day. She wants to change the world and become a household name. So she decides to open up her world, not only to new volunteers who want to help spread her message, but to camera crews who will document what happens after she steps off the stage. But when she loosens her grip on the narrative, things are revealed that could throw her entire empire up in flames

• 43:43Sarah Hagi?

  and ultimately lead to betrayal by someone in her innermost circle.

• 43:56Scaachi Koul?

  Follow Scamfluencers on the Audible app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to all episodes of Scamfluencers ad-free by joining Audible.

• 44:06Sarah Hagi?

  This is The Memory Maker, Part One. I'm Sarah Haggy.

• 44:09Scaachi Koul?

  And I'm Sachi Cole.

• 44:11Sarah Hagi?

  We use many sources in our research. A few that were particularly helpful were the Gateway Podcast, Conspirituality Podcast, the Mormon Stories Podcast, and Vice TV's episode on Teal. And of course, Teal's own books and videos, including Sculptor in the Sky, The Completion Process, and Shadows Before Dawn. Special thanks to Jared Dobson and Jennings Brown for taking the time to chat with us.

• 44:36Scaachi Koul?

  In this episode, we discussed sexual violence, depression, and suicide. If you or someone you know is struggling with mental health, the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline can be reached at 1-800-273-8255. The National Alliance on Mental Illness is available at 1-800-950-6264. If you or someone you know is a victim of sexual assault, you can contact the National Sexual Assault Hotline in the US by calling 1-800-656-Pope.

• 45:05Sarah Hagi?

  That's 1-800-656-4673. Additional resources are available in our show notes. Suzy Armitage wrote this episode. Additional writing by us, Satya Cole and Sarah Hagi. Our senior producer is Jen Swan. Our producer is John Reed. Our associate producers are Charlotte Miller and Lexi Peery. Our story editor and producer is Sarah Enney. Our story editor is Alison Weintraub. Sound design is by James Morgan. Fact checking by Gabrielle Drolle. Additional audio assistance provided by Adrian Tapia. Our music supervisor, Scott Velazquez for Frieson Sync.

• 45:46Sarah Hagi?

  Our managing producer is Matt Gant and our senior managing producer is Tanja Thigman. Kate Young and Olivia Richard are our series producers. Our senior story editor is Rachel B. Doyle. Our senior producer is Ginny Bloom. Our executive producers are Janine Cornolo, Stephanie Jens, Jenny Lauer Beckman, and Marshall Louie for Wondery.

• 46:19Speaker 15

  A trucker merges onto the I-10 in New Orleans. He checks his mirrors. The lane is clear. And then, boom, impact. A pickup truck, seemingly out of nowhere, scrapes down the side of his 18-wheeler. Multiple passengers inside. One man flees the scene. And the driver of the pickup, he doesn't seem all that upset. It didn't feel like a regular accident, because it wasn't. Across the city, truckers are getting sideswiped, all on the same stretch of the same freeway. And behind many of the cases is one person, a Hollywood stunt woman turned personal injury lawyer named Vanessa Moda. This podcast is a story about fake accidents that lead to real consequences, and a scheme that ends in betrayal and murder.

• 47:04Speaker 15

  Listen to Over My Dead Body: Operation Sideswipe wherever you get your podcasts. Audible subscribers can binge all episodes early and ad-free right now. Join Audible in the Audible app or by subscribing on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.