Moms, Prophecies, and oh ya Orpheus is there too... KAOS Takeover w/ Christie Vogler and Anastasia Pantazopoulou (Part 2)

Welcome back for a slightly late part two of a KAOS Takeover episode with Michaela Pangowish, Christie Vogler, and special guest Anastasia Pantazopoulou. This time we talked about all the mortals bouncing around in the series, from our deep love of Caeneus to our fascination with Orpheus (what is he even doing?), and all the moms we met along the way. Submit your question for the next Q&A via email http://mythsbaby.com/questions or a voice note https://www.speakpipe.com/LTAMB. Get ad-free episodes and so, so much more, by subscribing to the Oracle Edition at patreon.com/mythsbaby http://patreon.com/mythsbaby CW/TW: far too many Greek myths involve assault. I try to provide direct warnings when there is reference to anything with overtly traumatic themes but be aware that Greek mythology regularly features assault, death, and many other potentially triggering events. Attributions and licensing information for music used in the podcast can be found here:mythsbaby.com/sources-attributions http://mythsbaby.com/sources-attributions. Learn more about Liv's next group trips https://travelbugxlivalbert.my.canva.site/ to GREECE! Application deadline is November 30 (Subject to change due to demand). Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Liv Albert?

  Hey nerds, really quick note from me. I want to tell you that we now have the applications open for the next set of listener group trips. This is us going back to the original, the trips that we have held in the past that have been so much fun, so successful, and pretty affordable in terms of wandering around Greece with a bunch of nerds. So check out the details and get your applications in at mythsbaby.com grouptrip.

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• 2:10Speaker 06

  Hello everyone, it is Hermes aka Michaela just popping in to give you a quick apology that this episode wasn't out last week. Liv and I greatly underestimated how much work it would be to do this while we were doing our tours out here in Greece. But here it is now, we're so excited for you to hear the part two of our episode with Kristy Vogler and Anastasia Pantazopoulou. So yeah, I hope you enjoy it.

• 2:52Speaker 06

  Moms Prophecies and oh yeah, Orpheus is there too. A Chaos Takeover with Kristy Vogler and Anastasia Pantazopoulou, part two.

• 3:13Speaker 07

  Hello listeners, this is Let's Talk About Myths, baby. And I'm your host Kristy Vogler. That's right, once again, I am taking over for Liv to talk about the amazing show Chaos and helping me out because, again, I get lost sometimes, is the wonderful Michaela. So Michaela, can you say hi to everyone, please? Hello. So yes, we have Michaela here today. And just to remind everyone of like, why I'm taking over, I am the person who loves to do reception of pop media. And Chaos is probably my number one favorite show in existence right now for so many reasons. And we, Michaela

• 3:56Speaker 07

  and I, had a long conversation about the gods and we're trying to convince Liv, like, Liv, you need to see this show, like, come on. And we're convincing everyone else. And we decided today we need further reinforcements. So today we are joined by Anastasia Pantazopoulou, who is a classical philologist and an interdisciplinary researcher, who is currently a visiting assistant professor of classics at Carleton College. So Anastasia, thank you so much for joining us today. Thank you. Hello, everybody. And thank you both for having me. I'm really excited. Um, chaos is like a personal favorite as well, so I'm more than happy to talk about it.

• 4:36Speaker 07

  Yeah, and and the reason we tapped Anastasia is I actually had a chance to listen to you give an amazing paper on this topic at Camus back in March now, so it's been a little bit. Um, and I was so excited to get to talk to you about it. Um, like I said, we we've already covered the gods, which was fun, but like there's so much to unpack with the mortal characters and and three characters in particular that I know we're gonna dig into. Um, but yeah, Anastasia, can you also just tell us a little bit more about like what work you do generally besides just talking about chaos? Oh, sure. I'm happy to. So generally, um, my research projects and my research like

• 5:17Speaker 07

  centers around classical Athenian drama and classical reception. Uh, I also work on different digital humanities projects that are informed and inform um, my classical research in different ways. And um, I focus a lot on the socio like socio-political concept of um, the other uh, in the ancient and the modern world. Um, and especially I look at like identity performance, otherness and inclusivity in 5th century uh, BC Athens and contemporary North uh, America and the Western world more broadly. So um, working on chaos is also part of this like broader uh, interest of mine.

• 6:00Speaker 07

  Yeah, yeah, it feels like such a good fit in so many ways. Oh. So Anastasia, Michaela and I already got to talk about, um, you know, how we came to the show and everything. Can you tell us about like your experience watching it the first time and? You know, why do you think more people should be watching this show? Yeah, sure. Oh, that's a great question. Um, so you know, at first, like it, there was a lot of like um, ads and like stuff popping up on my feeds, like on social media and stuff. And like I have like um, Netflix and like it would be like being advertised all the time. And I was like, it looks great. I mean, the cast

• 6:41Speaker 07

  like just like even not knowing like what to expect. Like you look at the cast, like, oh, this needs like these looks really good. And I mean, it was really good. It didn't disappoint like at all. Uh, on the other hand, I think. And um, I mean, I've rewatched like parts of it, uh, for a time like working on the canvas paper, now working on an article on it. Uh, and every time like I find like something new, there's something more. Um, one thing like I really appreciated like the first time watching it is um, how layered it is. So they really, the way they have reworked the myths to uh, make them even more like accessible because like

• 7:22Speaker 07

  in my head at least, like the goal of this means we're like all about like what this world is, like the, the humans, right? Um, and how our world works. And then they pretty much took that like really uh, this like core quality of the myths and translated it into um, a modern version of them, like make them even uh, more accessible for modern audiences. So that was part of the magic, I think. And I was sad that people did not appreciate that and we don't get to have like a second, like a second season at least because it also leaves us on this cliffhanger. Like, Wayne, come on, we need to see more.

• 8:06Speaker 07

  I don't know anyone who's actually watched this being disappointed in it in any regard. Like, I have not been

• 8:12Speaker 06

  Like someone's like, eh, it was mid for me or something like, no, like if you watched it, you loved it, especially if you have a background in classics and.

• 8:19Speaker 01

  Truly like the last episode, just the way they set things up for a second season was so beautifully done. Like I can't. I can't get that imagery of hair out of my head, you know, like darling, like make a bed for me, I'm coming. And then just her walking down the street. By all her tacitus around her. I was like, like I had to rewind and watch that scene so many times. So I was just like, wow.

• 8:40Speaker 06

  So you want to make music videos to that scene, like with some really good.

• 8:45Speaker 01

  She felt herself in that moment. She was like, yeah, yeah.

• 8:48Speaker 07

  Yeah, this very like Queen Bee vibes all over, like with uh her bees and everything and the tacitus all red, like all, sorry. Dressed in like uh yellow and stuff like you haven't been. And I mean, who did she call? And then at the end, you also have Dionysus like holding like the little ball. And I know you talked about the gods, but Dionysus like I.

• 9:09Speaker 06

  We always have room to talk about Dionysus.

• 9:12Speaker 07

  My god, in the show, like so well done as like a character, um but also like. Dionysus like in the ancient world also like the symbol between like the like bridging, like it's like he's a bridge between. Uh the divine and the human and everything. And it was so like nicely done in the show.

• 9:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, so stunning, oh.

• 9:37Speaker 06

  And I imagine, because we'll have to talk about Orpheus a little bit, so Dionysus will definitely come back into play in today's conversation. It can't be helped. It's so good. Um, yeah. Okay, so I, like I said, I gotta listen to your wonderful paper on this topic. Can you give our readers kind of like? A, you know, a summary of what that was, and that will be a great lead in to our, our three main protagonists that share this prophecy with.

• 10:04Speaker 07

  Yeah, sure, I'll be happy to. So uh for that paper, like one of the things said before, like really. True me in the show was how this like ancient myths were like reworked uh in modern context. So my. Focus um was on the three um mortal characters, Ari, Reedy. Uh and Kainas, um and the fact that we have this like othered characters there in terms of their gender. We have two women. And um and just a transgender character, Kainas, who.

• 10:41Speaker 07

  Share this prophecy with Zeus without knowing it. And they are destined to like chain, like take him down, change uh how the world works. And uh really like um they are the ones who go all about like resisting this oppression oppression. Like fighting the injustices of the world. Um and it's uh so what I tried to do in that paper um is discuss how uh the show really grants them agency. And they just that they don't really have um in uh Greek mythology uh in their main stories.

• 11:19Speaker 07

  And through that agency that uh or the way they uh grant them that agency um is by like reversing key. Aspects of their uh stories, their mythological stories, like for instance, uh even simple terms like it really is the one like. You really sees the one who turns and looks like or if she she is the one who decides to follow him uh back. Uh when he goes down to down to the underworld because she has a greater purpose to serve. Um Kainos um in um the versions we have him um from like our ancient sources.

• 12:00Speaker 07

  Is this character that yes, like um he's granted by Poseidon um the wish to like um transform into a man. And then becomes really um a a mechanism in the uh hyper masculine like epic style hero world. Uh but in the in in chaos, he's a totally like different character. He decides to uh tran- uh transform, since it's change. And then he becomes um a a character who really gives life back instead of taking it. Um like the his mythological counterpart. And then Ariadne, um Ariadne in the myth, I really like but in um so in the myth like.

• 12:50Speaker 07

  Versions of it that we know, like Theseus takes her, uh, she helps Theseus. Um, defeat the, the Minotaur and escape and then in some accounts like he um. Desert her on um, the island of Naxos, uh, so she's also accused like for leaving um. Her like hunter behind and everything, but the Ariadne of chaos, like. She wants, she's a very disillusioned character, right? And once she like understands what's happening, it's like, no, like, I'm here, like I defy the gods and I'm here like. For my people, defy for my people, and like she stays in Crete and becomes like a leader.

• 13:33Speaker 07

  Um, of the people and for the people. So that was like part of uh, my paper, like. Um, how this like agency that the show grants them allows them to become these empowered. Characters that can uh, shake things up and actually take down the patriarchal structures of their world. Um, and then I also um, I'm looking at how um. Individually they become part, but the fact that they come together, like the three of them come together. But also they bring in and uh, through uh, their restored relationships with uh, their uh, mothers or by um.

• 14:16Speaker 07

  Creating like new bones with other um, char- characters who are other, uh, in terms of their gender. Uh, or socially other, like mostly women, like Ariadne forms this alliance um. With Andromache, like the leader of the Trojans, right? Um, so. How this in a sense creates um, this utopia of empowered like um. Other characters that can shape or reshape um, the power dynamics in their world.

• 14:52Speaker 06

  Yeah, I really loved your observation of not only what was significant about these three characters was their shared prophecy and their kind of reversing their roles from original mythology, but that connection to their mothers and how complicated those relationships were initially. But like the complication was out of the need of necessity in some ways for these prophecies too.

• 15:22Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 15:23Speaker 06

  And I thought that was really interesting, especially like Ari and her relationship with her mom was one of the most interesting because she's literally making a wax figure of herself looking like her brother every year to like help her mom out.

• 15:40Speaker 07

  Yeah. Yeah, no, it's, it's, it's, it's really like deep, like and the, the trauma that all three characters like have experienced and they keep experiencing in terms of like how really broken their relationships are. And I think that's also like part of like the beauty of the show, like it really tackles this idea of like relationships that are like broken, um, whether that like on, on all different like human levels and experiences. So it's really this need to reconstruct, like rebuild these relationships that can allow us to like fight back whatever it is that we need to fight.

• 16:20Speaker 06

  Yeah. I was also thinking what's interesting about this show is for the majority, like we see all of their mothers, but also our perspective of the protagonists' relationships with their mothers is mostly from the protagonists. And I, I was just kind of curious, like what did both of you think about the fact that these women, these mothers seem to, maybe not Ari's mom, but definitely, um, Riddi's mom who's a Tassida, and then definitely Keneys's mother who like has a game plan to get to the underworld and everything.

• 16:54Speaker 01

  Um, have kind of a greater awareness of this like greater purpose for their children. That they know alienates their relationship, but they still kind of have to follow through on it.

• 17:06Speaker 01

  I don't know if you guys had thoughts on that. I just. It kind of gave me chills when, when I. Truly, yeah. Observe that. And I was like, I was constantly blown away by all the mothers in um, this series and just sort of how. How big a role they played and how important they were within each of their communities in a sense, like, you know, Andromache with the Trojans, like. She is very important and it can be argued, you know, because they killed all the men, but still. These women are being sort of. Put in these positions. And, and I was really kind of.

• 17:40Speaker 01

  Blown away by like. Specifically Riddi and Canaeus's mothers. Where I'm, where that alienation, but they still kind of. Realize like, there is a bigger plan here. Um, that my child is a part of and they're important for this. And so there's like this sacrifice that happens. It's really heartbreaking. And you can still see the like, the love that these mothers have for their children. Um, despite that. Or like, you know, regardless, they, they have to kind of distance themselves or make sure. Things are going to. Ensure that things are going to happen, although I argue with any sort of Greek.

• 18:19Speaker 01

  Media, when it comes to like fates, fate's gonna happen regardless, you know, so it's like, I don't know, maybe you could have had a really great relationship with your kid and it would still happen. But yeah, there's like a, I think that there's like a. It, it just kind of shows the depth of love mothers have for their children too, and how much they want their children to succeed. And do more and be better and be happy. Um, and you know, like. Our, our mothers. Fight for us and set us up so that we will have a better life than they did. Um, and like that is, I think. I wish, hope, maybe, I don't know, I'm not a mom, but like. The goal of being a mother is making sure your child is, so.

• 19:02Speaker 01

  Doing well and is happy and all these things and so. I don't know, it's kind of just like a display of like, just the depth of love mothers can have, I think, I felt.

• 19:12Speaker 06

  Yeah. Well, and it's, it's like kind of in opposition to the only real mother figure we get to see of the gods is Hera.

• 19:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:20Speaker 06

  Right? And we, we get that really early on with that dinner or that conversation at the table with Zeus and Dionysus. It's like, don't talk to your mother that way. She's not my mother. And. And yeah, I, you know, that's kind of interesting is like, we get to see Hera the most of. And we see Persephone is about the other, other female goddess we see.

• 19:41Speaker 01

  The heart, the heartbreaking part is we don't actually get to see Hera as, as a mother.

• 19:45Speaker 06

  As a mother, no.

• 19:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:46Speaker 07

  She's actually the one who's kind of destroying, like all the mother, we have like this really horrific scene. Um, with like her and like the, like human, keeping like making her give like birth and everything. But I think, like, I agree with both of it's because of that, like, really deep love that the mothers have. For their children that they're willing to sacrifice, um, at least for. A cer- a certain amount of time, the, the relationship they have. Uh, with them in order to cater to that bigger, uh, goal and that bigger plan. Um, and I really like how, um.

• 20:29Speaker 07

  Our, um, sorry, Reed's mom and Kineus's mom like come, like we see they come together at the end, like. Something we were not expecting, like necessarily, but it's like, it's there all, all along, like. The, they already knew they were already serving, um. This like, um, bigger like, um, plan that, uh, is out there and it's, I mean, it's heartbreaking, yes. But also like, so like empowering in the moment. And the fact that we get to see, um, that they. Re, I mean, with Reed, we don't like physically see it, but, uh, with Kineus and, um, Ari that. They actually like reunite, um.

• 21:14Speaker 07

  I think like in that moment is where, where everything starts like changing.

• 21:20Speaker 06

  Yeah. Yeah, and I think there's also a question of like, we get the sense because Prometheus is our narrator that like, he and the fates to some degree are orchestrating all of this. Um, and I definitely, uh, we're gonna talk about the fates again today, even though they're not mortals, they're so involved in this. Um, but there, there was one moment I remembered about Prometheus is like, uh, he seemed to be the planner, except when, um, Ari ends up killing, I, I can't remember if it's the son is killed or when Ari kills her father, because he also has a like, oh damn, that just happened moment.

• 21:58Speaker 06

  Like, he looks at us share, like, sharing in the shock that that just happened, as if that wasn't according to plan all of a sudden. And so I, I am, I'm still sad. The story doesn't continue because I'm really curious about like, you know, who ends up being kind of the grand orchestrator of these women coming together with their children to affect change in the world. Um, so I, that's, I, I think one of those questions that will never really get answered, but, um, it was really cool to see. Uh, yeah, so we, like I said, we're definitely gonna talk more about these three characters.

• 22:36Speaker 06

  Um, but I, I feel like we always kind of end up not talking about Orpheus as much, and he is important to this storyline, but not necessarily the same degree. Yeah, like, well, I think one of my favorite lines, and I, I wrote it down here, is Prometheus narrates at one point when Orpheus is in the other world, "Orpheus is useful. An eagle like that has no trouble accepting the notion of a cosmic purpose, and no suspicion that that purpose might be co-opted." And I, I absolutely love that line because what's ironic is like, this whole show gives you the sense of like, there's a cosmic purpose out there, like, there's something happening.

• 23:17Speaker 06

  But it's almost as Prometheus is saying, it's like, yeah, Orpheus isn't really a part of it, though. He's just convenient to it.

• 23:24Speaker 01

  Orpheus is like, he's like a cog in the machine. He, he keeps things moving, but he is not, it's, it's not about him. It's not his purpose, you know, but like,

• 23:36Speaker 01

  I don't know. My biggest thing with Orpheus, I'm like, why are his eyebrows like that? Like, that's, I always was constantly writing that down. I'm like, what's, was that a choice? Is that just this man's eyebrows?

• 23:45Speaker 06

  I think it's just his eyebrows in general.

• 23:48Speaker 01

  It was very distracting to me.

• 23:51Speaker 06

  Because I can't remember, is he, he's Irish or Welsh or something like that? I believe, Kilian.

• 23:58Speaker 07

  Yeah, Charles have interesting eyebrows.

• 24:04Speaker 06

  But, yeah, I, so the reason I wanted to bring Orpheus up. So Orpheus and Theseus are probably like the two, some of the two best known hero, Greek hero names. Um, that would be familiar to people. Um, Theseus is even more of a background character uh in the show. So that, that, that could be interesting to talk about, but I was just kind of trying to look at Orpheus and it's like, does Orpheus function? Like a traditional Greek hero in mythology and what is the need for that? Or especially as like if there's a need for it, Prometheus gets to talk about it as like, it's a throwaway. He's necessary to set up these other people to succeed, basically.

• 24:49Speaker 07

  Yeah, um, I, I mean, I, I can.

• 24:51Speaker 06

  Go for it.

• 24:51Speaker 07

  Give it a try, sure, so. He's an interesting character in certain ways. I think like his main like purpose or goal in the story world of K is like kind of becoming like, or serving as a foil for Reedy. Um, almost, and I mean, if it weren't for him, like going to the underworld, then Reedy might not have like been able to come back and like become prophet and um, as we, as it is implied at least at the end. Uh, and being the one who can kind of bridge uh, the two worlds and um, liberate the, the living. Um, but, and I've always had like

• 25:33Speaker 07

  Orpheus in my mind, but like in the, the ancient, like the mythological figure in this Orpheus like, because in my mind, he's not generally like the traditional Greek hero. I mean, yeah, okay, in the Argonaut, like he protects in the Argonautica. He um, takes on this like a larger life journey to the underworld. So these are aspects that would um, make him a Greek hero, but also like.

• 25:59Speaker 07

  Especially after a certain point uh in time in the ancient world, um what I also think about like a hero like uh performing all this like greater than life deeds is like

• 26:11Speaker 06

  Um.

• 26:11Speaker 07

  What is the purpose of them? So is it a self-serving um

• 26:15Speaker 06

  Um.

• 26:15Speaker 07

  Act, or is it like uh caring to like a a greater good in a sense? And with Orpheus, at least in his um the storyline with um Eurydice, it's mostly it's self-serving. Yeah, so he will bring her back, but he's bringing her back for his own like self. He he can leave without her, right?

• 26:37Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 26:38Speaker 07

  And I mean, in chaos, he takes her coin, like he does, he it's a very like self-absorbed love, absorbed love, sorry. So I I I have trouble with Orpheus, to be um

• 26:53Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 26:54Speaker 07

  Honest.

• 26:55Speaker 06

  He ends up being more interesting because you're right, he's very self-serving in the show of like the taking of the coin. And that's that's kind of like one of these things you don't realize in your first watch through until it's revealed that like why Riddi is stuck in the underworld is because Orpheus took her coins. Because he loves her so much that he didn't want to like lose the chance of her disappearing completely, which which is

• 27:25Speaker 07

  Wild.

• 27:26Speaker 06

  It's really wild, yeah. Yeah, because no one understands how the afterlife works at this point.

• 27:32Speaker 07

  And we cannot take out from him the fact that he really suffered like um a lot when he loses her, like in both in the uh mythological world and the chaos like story world.

• 27:43Speaker 06

  Um.

• 27:44Speaker 07

  And that's also like a quality that we see in heroes, like this capacity for like great suffering.

• 27:49Speaker 06

  Um.

• 27:50Speaker 07

  Um. And even more so like in tragic heroes um in a way than the like epic style uh heroes we usually have in mind. But still, like The reasons why he acts upon and in in chaos, like he needs Dionysus. To actually like kind of like push him towards. That and initially like he he's not granted, like Dionysus has again to intervene. Uh for him to actually make it to the underworld because the fates were like, you know what he did. Like he took his like loved ones coins, how on earth like I was supposed to like. Um allow him to go down and get her, like would she be better off without him?

• 28:35Speaker 06

  Yeah, yeah, and I love that that was juxtaposed against this little family who's also involved in this contest at the cave. There they wanna go and bring their young son back and like and like. It's literally him or the dad to bring the son back that has to be sacrificed and it's. It kind of uh now that I'm thinking about it, I I had this conversation recently where someone pointed out that love is kind of like a. Cosmic horror, uh how we can think about it like it's. And if you think about oh um Orpheus's love for Riddi supposedly. It leads to some truly horrible things that he does in the name of love.

• 29:19Speaker 06

  And I think what why it kind of works is he stays true to it to the very end, like he successfully is the only human to travel to the underworld because. He does choose not to, I think, take the drink, uh the cup of water. Um he's like he refuses, even though he's thirsty, even though like that could be a selfish act. His selfishness is for his love of Riddi. And so I think that's also why Riddi has such a hard time walking away from him because. It is authentic in that he feels the strong love for her.

• 29:52Speaker 01

  And I think we were talking about maybe I was talking about this with somebody else, I don't know. Um but it was like on my my second walk through watch through of chaos, um when it gets to that point. With Riddi and Orpheus and her walking away, but of of that being like such a hard break. Because there is still love there, even if that love is maybe not good, I was like. I'm watching it through my second time. I was like, oh shit, I have experienced this. Like it reminded me of my, my, um, my ex from like, who we broke up like two years ago. What I was like, I sat there and I watched this moment and seeing her struggle so much with that decision. Because there is still love there, even if it isn't always good at times. There's still that like,

• 30:32Speaker 01

  we have made a life together and built a life together and I still, there's, there's stuff, you're not a bad person. Just not the right person for me. That, that struggle, like it resonated so much. And I remember seeing them just being like, oh, I get it. I get why it hurts and I get the, the goodbye and sort of like that stuff like. The, the thing that I, it's interesting is like that love is depicted in so many different ways in the show. Like, yes, it is, you know, like Orpheus, I guess, in, in a way, his life is, his love is self-serving, but it's, it is so self-serving for this one person. Like he wants to give so much to her. And it, it makes him feel good.

• 31:12Speaker 01

  But it, he wants to give it to her and it, but it benefits him in the end versus her and, um, Riddi and Cynaeus where it's just like, it's like, oh, that's the, oh, there's like.

• 31:22Speaker 07

  Mutual.

• 31:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's mutual, like that. And, and so it's, I don't know, it's interesting. And, and Orpheus is, I, I just love that Orpheus doesn't do like anything by himself too. Like his career and his songs is because of Riddi. You know, um, getting to the underworld, Dionysus, getting across the, uh, river. Well, that was Charon's. Charon, yeah.

• 31:44Speaker 06

  Charon and the fates, right?

• 31:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:46Speaker 06

  Who had to provide the mark.

• 31:47Speaker 01

  You know, when he actually gets to the underworld and is trying to convince to let, you know, Riddi back out. It was like what Medusa and Riddi were really the ones who were like, okay, let's get out like.

• 31:56Speaker 06

  And Persephone, and Persephone stepping in, yeah.

• 31:58Speaker 01

  Yes, he is true, he is just like a cog. Like he is just a vehicle for other people to sort of, like move along, which is very, very funny. Poor guy. He needs, he doesn't have his own agency or really life, I think.

• 32:12Speaker 07

  Yeah, uh, exactly. And I mean, again, like I, I agree with this point like about love and like being portrayed in so many different ways. And it's, yeah, he's truly like everything he does like stems from that love for her, but. We, in a sense, like going back to the myth, we don't, in that, like, love relationship, we get, we don't get to see what her um, like, take is in until like, the moment we learn like she's about to leave, because she's suffocating, like, it's a, yes, it's a really um, strong love.

• 32:50Speaker 07

  What he would think that anyone like one or like even other people might think about it, it's just but for the person like on the other end, like experiencing that type of life, it's like it's devastating, she can't take it anymore.

• 33:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, and it's like, it's a, it sort of constructs her as something, it's just, so it's, it also feels like to the person like do you actually love me or do you love the, the idea of me, the thing you have created of me?

• 33:16Speaker 07

  Because she's like his muse, but she doesn't wanna have this role, that's not what she signed up for.

• 33:22Speaker 06

  Exactly. And I think that's what's kinda ends up being interesting about Orpheus as a character, and I would say even Theseus. Cause he, he kinda just disappears once, um, a sianex is saved. Um, we don't know what ended up happening, if he was executed later or not. But like, but it doesn't actually matter, and the one thing is, is like, the end of this season, as far as I care or that's the end of Orpheus's story, he doesn't necessarily play a part anymore. And like, I feel like his story is complete because they did such good closure of that relationship between the two of them. Now, can you still do something with them? Sure, but like, I think that was the best part was like, but you don't need to because

• 34:07Speaker 06

  he, he, he got co-opted for, for someone else's story, and that was done so well, so.

• 34:14Speaker 07

  And in, and in, and in a case like, um, that aspect is almost like a mini reversal of like the ancient myth as well, because once like he turns back and looks at, um, you really see like she's gone, that's end up for like story and like myth life, uh, for us, whereas like he gets to, uh, go on and like suffer a bit more and has his own like tragic end, right?

• 34:40Speaker 07

  But for Eurydice, it's like, it's over. That's it.

• 34:43Speaker 06

  Yep.

• 34:44Speaker 07

  There's nothing else that we'll learn about her. And in the shows, like, that's it. Like, he has completed his life um for the purposes of this like show and we don't necessarily have to have him back.

• 34:58Speaker 06

  Yeah, it's literally one of the only characters that I'm like, if he didn't come back, I that would be okay.

• 35:04Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 35:05Speaker 06

  It wouldn't bug me.

• 35:06Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 35:07Speaker 06

  Not that I didn't like the actor, not that I didn't like the character, but just like, I felt like that story was complete.

• 35:12Speaker 01

  He always brought a smile to my face, is what I'll say, is is because of his sort of like helplessness, like, he was almost like the helpless maiden in the story.

• 35:20Speaker 06

  And his earnestness about it, right? Like, he's gonna do everything to the best of his ability.

• 35:26Speaker 01

  And it's so adorable. And I'm just like, look at him go, man. Wow, he needs to like, his next album, he needs to be his own muse. Like, he needs to write his like, Catabasas album.

• 35:41Speaker 01

  Oh, God, what a silly guy.

• 35:43Speaker 06

  No. So, so that kind of brings me to the next, I think, big mid discussion point that I I wanted to unpack was um where I think it's time to talk about the fates and prophecies. Cause like, that's that is something that is shaping a lot of the story. And we're we're told in the show by Prometheus that only mortals hold prophecies. And we're told that be because he's trying to point out that like Zeus and the family were once mortal. So that's why Zeus has a prophecy. Um, and

• 36:17Speaker 06

  what's interesting, though, is that, like, I and I think we have this question.

• 36:22Speaker 06

  Prometheus also tells us that the, I think it's just the Furies, but I would I would think the fates are also there that he says, like, they're as old as the gods, except they're older, which suggests that they exist outside of the system of meander water that Zeus developed. And so I I don't think we'll ever have an answer to this question fully, but I'm really curious to like, know what your guys' takes are. It's like, what do we think the fates and the Furies are? Um, and you know, what, how important are pro is prophecy and fate to the story overall?

• 37:11Speaker 03

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• 37:41Speaker 07

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• 38:59Speaker 01

  I think, and I think we briefly touched on this last time as well, where in my sort of understanding of sort of like the Greek mythos, Greek cosmology, ancient Greek... It it it's kind of like divided into almost like generations. And the older generations kind of have this like primordialness, sort of like this everlastingness that like um. Doesn't happen with the younger generations, right? And the fates and the furies are always very old in this. Like they just are, they just exist, they are just things like, they are just things of the world versus. Agents acting in the world, in a sense, you know, like, it's almost like they don't need to be.

• 39:44Speaker 01

  Personified in the way that they are in the show and the way that they are in Greek myth because they're just, they just exist. Just like things that will happen versus the later gods like um Zeus and and the Olympians. Are they, there's, there's less conceptualness to them, they're a bit more concrete in how they are. Presented and understood. So it's and and you know, when I look at like um like ancient Greek texts and stuff. There is that sense of Zeus is like Zeus can't go against fates, Zeus can't, the gods can't go against fates, the gods can't go against furies. You know, they're always a little bit scared of them too, because they were there before, they just.

• 40:27Speaker 01

  You know, they are, they are the system versus people existing within the system or agents existing within the system.

• 40:35Speaker 07

  No, I I agree that this like, they are this like primordial like creatures like. Outside like um. The human or like even the divine senses um in a way, but they're always like there and they have. They're creating the framework for um everyone else to become an agent. Um and like the the world and the and the stories. So yeah, I agree with that and I think we kind of see that in chaos in the sense that, yes, they have like a corporeal existence. But once theoretically like Zeus um kills them, um.

• 41:18Speaker 07

  Doesn't mean really anything. Like at the end, uh they are still there, like we hear, they don't have to have like a a human like appearance or like um a physical uh innocence existence. Because fate uh both like in the uh Black or like Greek, let's say um or ancient Greek understanding of the world, um it it's there and it's uh it's what you carry like as your destiny. So it pre um uh dates you in a sense and it's gonna be there like after you uh in a way. So and like at the end, it looks like when they talk, we just uh hear like Laes is like talking to Prometheus.

• 42:02Speaker 07

  And uh telling him like you can't like destroy fate, you can't like, there is no like point in trying. And you just had to like uh be a little patient to actually see um what you've planned and what you what you're destined to do like coming to life. But he's uh they um they're also giving him this, I don't even know if it's like real ironic sense of uh well, now you're free, but you get to decide what you do with your freedom. But is this like really true with what we know about fate? And even like um in the ways presented like in Hesiod or on um Herodotus or in Homer. Uh even the gods have their own kind of like destiny.

• 42:45Speaker 07

  So it's it's there, it's all already faded. So what are we to make with that like at the end?

• 42:52Speaker 06

  Yeah. Yeah, I like that. I think bringing up the idea that the form that we see them in the show is a construction for mortals and the gods.

• 43:04Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 43:04Speaker 06

  To comprehend and try and hold conversations to understand what this force is. Um and they they kind of point out and it's like in or in trying to create this construction of what we are. You are making it be.

• 43:23Speaker 06

  And it's like, you could kill us.

• 43:27Speaker 06

  You could ignore us. You could, you could choose to do all these different things and like, I, I think that's kind of the question that always comes up, especially Greek mythology. Like, I love fate and prophecy and Greek mythology is like, how do we tackle that with this concept we like of free will of like, oh, we can choose like what to do um with it and like we're, we're not beholden to a particular destiny. Like, that's how we want to feel about things. And the fates are kind of like, yeah, we agree with that, but here we are.

• 44:02Speaker 07

  Yeah, and the thing is like, um, with the ancient, like the Greek mythological stories we have and literary um stories, like it, it looks like, uh, even when people like try to fight it or try to avoid it, like at the end, their prophecy or like they just, like they can't skip, they can't avoid it. Like it's gonna happen. So that's why like it's so interesting and intriguing at the same time for me. Like the way at, at the end, like in K is they tell like for me, he's, you're free, you choose what to do, but really? Like, cause we know that's not, um, that's not how it works, at least like in the integral world.

• 44:44Speaker 06

  Um, and I find too, um, at least it, when it comes to prophecies, the more you try to fight it, the worse off it is. And I think there's a message in that where, you know, of, of the question of free will, because prophecies are so

• 45:02Speaker 06

  nebulous, are so beautiful, like they do not mean one thing. They can mean a hundred things. And if you sit there and obsess about it, it's probably gonna end up being really bad versus if you just live your life and if you just, you know.

• 45:20Speaker 01

  Try to just enjoy life and like exist and all these things. Maybe, yeah, probably the prophecy will come true at some point and you might not even notice. Cause it might just be a little thing that happens, you know, and you're like, oh, okay. And you go on, move on versus if you obsess about it and you try so hard to make this one interpretation you have of it in your brain. Not happen, you're spending too much time on it and you're giving it too much energy. And it becomes something terrible and horrible and explodes in your face.

• 45:50Speaker 07

  Yeah, and everything around you, like every little thing you do on, like in your daily life. You interpret it as like, oh, this is it, this is it. So it's, you are kind of being like absorbed. And this and you like forget to live.

• 46:05Speaker 06

  Yep. And I think the show did a good job of exploring all of those ideas. Um, through, we only know three prophecies in this entire show. So we know of the one shared by Zeus and Riddi, Canaeus and Ari. And they all interpret it completely different.

• 46:24Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 46:25Speaker 06

  They, you know, they connect it to some aspect of their own lived experience. Um, and Zeus is very much the one obsessing over it, right? Like the other three are kind of like, hmm, whatever, it, it exists. Um, I think Canaeus maybe takes it the hardest because he's died and so therefore he's like, you know, I was. Living in defiance of the gods and that's why my world fell apart, basically. So I think he has the harshest view. Um, of the mortals on it. And then we have another example, we have King Minus. And his prophecy, which he misunderstands, and I'm again putting that in quotes because again, these, these prophecies are so nebulous.

• 47:08Speaker 06

  That you can make them fit certain circumstances. Um, and in this case, King Minus was uninformed of who took the first breath of his children. So like that misinformation. Allowed for the prophecy to come true in a way that we might all understand it from like a Greek mythology perspective of like Oedipus is like. Kill your father, marry your mother. Oh, just avoid that and and in doing so, it comes about. Um, but I think what's interesting about King Minos is that. He kind of effectively was able to like shove his prophecy aside for a period of time and it's not until. Zeus and Poseidon push him. To make the prophecy impossible. As far as I understood it.

• 47:54Speaker 06

  By killing a a Steinex, no, not Steinex, a Asterion. By killing his son Asterion.

• 47:59Speaker 01

  Well, Glaukis.

• 48:00Speaker 07

  And in the show Glaukis.

• 48:02Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 48:02Speaker 01

  It is Glaukis.

• 48:03Speaker 06

  Okay.

• 48:05Speaker 06

  Where did I get Asterion?

• 48:08Speaker 07

  Is the, is the, that's the mythological.

• 48:10Speaker 06

  Okay, okay.

• 48:14Speaker 01

  But yeah, and it's and it's also um. Really heartbreaking too, like you see the way it, the way that Minos feels like he has. Subverted his prophecy and it, you know. Avoided it and it hurts everyone around him. Very drastically, like it hurts his son by. You know, essentially he's now put his son in a situation where he's being mentally tortured his entire life. That is horrific. It tor- it hurts his wife. Cause she now has to, you know, she has a different view of her daughter and she has lost a child and it, you know, it's all these things. And it hurts his daughter so much. So it's like, it was a very.

• 48:56Speaker 01

  It it was extremely like selfishly motivated and then you see how that. Like explodes outward and hurts everybody else within the family unit. Now his daughter has to grow up thinking she killed her brother and has to, has a horrible relationship with her mother because. Her mom, when she looks at her, she just thinks of her dead son. And. It's just heartbreaking and it's so, when the, when the, when the um theories are showing her like. Here are the true events. That moment where her mom walks in and like picks her up and is like cooing all over her and like. Oh, you're so beautiful, so lovely, my like, my beloved Ari, like. That broke my heart to see, like, to know that that that is what she could have had her whole life. And she didn't because her dad.

• 49:42Speaker 01

  Made up some lie.

• 49:45Speaker 06

  Horrible and it's oh.

• 49:47Speaker 07

  Yeah, and like made up a lie that put on her like. She was the one to be blamed like. For the death and um what I find really interesting in his storyline is that we can like. See very clearly how like power dynamics in the systems of oppression work. Because he does that, uh yes, okay, so that he um. Continue like um on with his like line of power, but he's also like serving. The gods who are putting on like this very clear like framework and bur- burden on him. That no, you you don't play by your rules, you play by our rules, so you do what we tell you to do.

• 50:32Speaker 07

  And of course, then he takes that on and puts it on his own like family. Has then to like carry like this trauma. And of course, everybody's altered and like at the end when Ari kills him, I find like this moment like really. Powerful uh when um uh Pacify that goes to her and like hugs her and he like. She tells her like I killed dad and it's like, good. Thank you, like, yes, that's it. And she was also like part of this like really oppressed like circle and traumatic.

• 51:12Speaker 06

  I think what's also interesting to think about. Is that I imagine he feels guilt. For making that decision to protect his life, basically, and he does. Try to make it up to Ari by like you can tell he loves her, again, like there's this love. And he he wants to make up for it, but. And as you pointed out, like, but he's also part of this hierarchical system where he has a very powerful position within it, but he's still beholden to the gods. And so like one of the first times we we get actually get to see him.

• 51:52Speaker 06

  Put his love for his daughter second is um she asked as a promise for her birthday present to have the um the Trojans pardoned for this crime that they supposedly committed. And initially, he says yes, and then Poseidon shows up, say, nope, you have to execute them, you have to. And he does. So like, we we we also got a foreshadowing, or I don't know if it's foreshadowing or after shadowing because he's already done this before, we just aren't aware of it until later in the show. And I think that's really interesting because again, we can see this character that has love and affection for this person, but it's it's kind of seeing that that love and affection isn't

• 52:38Speaker 06

  it's misplaced in some way, like it doesn't take the priori, in this case, it doesn't take the priority it needs to versus Orpheus is always takes priority.

• 52:47Speaker 07

  Like, and I think in that moment, like when Ari starts like reconsidering like what is happening in her life, like she has this kind of like awakening moment, and then of course, like the Furies come in, like make it very clear for her, but she she really loves her father, like she's really

• 53:08Speaker 07

  respecting and admiring him. And then the moment like she asks something like really big and she most probably has, he has never like denied any request of her before, because I think there's genuine love, but to a certain degree, where it doesn't mess up with like his own like a agenda, like life, like actually um preserving his life. She's like, oh, wait, like what is happening?

• 53:39Speaker 06

  Yeah, and I think that ends up being kind of one of the interesting questions with Ari and like. What her storyline would have been going forward is like, how is she going to navigate holding a position of power against the gods, because the gods are, well, but the gods are fracturing too. So like, the Ciden has left. Does this mean you go to war with Zeus and beside it?

• 54:05Speaker 01

  And then I think the, the thing I love too is the little tidbit of Dionysus watching and him just going, pick up my love, seeing that and, and, and you know, him heading there and I'm like, she's gonna be against the gods, but here's this one god who

• 54:23Speaker 01

  he has a thing for her and he is, as we've, we said earlier, he is sort of that bridge between humanity and the gods and he, he is the human one of the gods, really.

• 54:33Speaker 07

  Yeah, and he's the one god who tried to help Orpheus, like, he has been siding with the humans, like, I think um, at some point, he's the one telling Zeus, but like, dad, they're not all bad, like, they're humans, like, um.

• 54:48Speaker 01

  You don't spend time with them.

• 54:50Speaker 07

  Yeah, you don't know them, right?

• 54:52Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 54:53Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 54:54Speaker 01

  So I, I think that would, that would be really interesting to see, like, how does she go against being against the gods, but then having this one god who was just, I don't know, like her little pet god who's just obsessed with her and wants to do everything to her right there.

• 55:07Speaker 06

  Well, and I also think, because again, he walks up with a meander and his father presented him with the choice either. Because, because like, what's interesting about Dionysus is he's not only making a choice between like the gods and humanity, he is kind of making a choice between being part of this patriarchal family god structure or not. And so like, he initially, he's just trying to get his dad, dad's approval and like, get a higher position, like he wants a more powerful position amongst the gods. But he's realizing the cost of that because his dad sacrifices a kitten right in front of all of us and we hate it so much. And says like, you have to kill your, you have to kill love, right?

• 55:51Speaker 06

  Like, it cause it makes you weak is what Zeus is telling us. And now Dionysus has to decide, it's like, okay, do I stick with my original goal of being a part of the family, being someone my dad is proud of? Or do I give up my immortality and embrace my humanity? And that's kind of scary, cause I don't know what that system looks like. What does a world without gods look like?

• 56:23Speaker 07

  It's a, it's a lot, and I think that's um, one of the reasons why it's a great show. Like, there is a lot to unpack. And a lot of different ways of approaching it. And also like, it um, it can very nicely become an entry point. Um, into like the ancient world, but also into discussions about our very own like current moment. Um, and they like, the, the way they've reworked the myths in such a way that um, pretty much serves as this like framework to talk about. Um, our like, present like moment. Um, it really, um, in my mind, um,

• 57:09Speaker 07

  really re, uh, harshly put it, um, reminds us of what like, the myths were supposed to do in the ancient world as well.

• 57:18Speaker 06

  Yeah, for sure, yeah. I think that's why this feels like such a good, smart example of Greek retellings and reception. Cause it's like, it is putting so many things in our modern world in conversation with these old stories. And refreshing the stories as a result.

• 57:37Speaker 07

  Exactly, and because like, um, myths, um, as they were like, constructed and understood and used in the ancient world, they create this necessary distance from the present moment, so that you can kind of disengage with your like, the emotional uh, state that might not like allow you to actually process what you're. You're like hearing, reading, or watching uh that can be very like um at times like painful or at times just like really making you think about um your current moment and it's sometimes like easier instead of like seeing like uh entirely or clearly yourself into the context like having this distance to actually

• 58:22Speaker 07

  um make like take the step and put yourself into the context. I think like chaos does it this very like nicely uh by using like the mist to actually talk about um the daily uh life like aspects we deal with, but also the bigger like questions of like who we are, what our world is currently, uh how do we go back to this um understanding of ourselves in the world as like a unity and how we come together to like resist certain things that are trying to impose on us.

• 59:02Speaker 07

  The frameworks that we cannot, that we should not be working in.

• 59:08Speaker 06

  So, so that brings me to the one other prophecy we hear. And it comes from what's uh and I've, we've had a couple of conversations, so I've definitely rethought about this character a lot. It comes from Prue. And if you remember, Prue is one of these characters in the underworld with Canaas and Riddi. Um and she, she wants to be a diver. She is someone who's very like by the book in the system and like will tattle-tale of like, oh, you didn't get in trouble for that and and she's Trojan.

• 59:44Speaker 06

  Um which we know from the marks on her forehead. Uh and so this came up in our conversation at, while we were at Canvas of just like, yeah. What if she's a Trojan who died in the Trojan War that led to this huge refugee crisis? That we see happening in the show and how she might be representative of someone who is.

• 1:00:07Speaker 06

  You know, in a, in a stable society, it's like, oh, everyone follow the rules. So everything runs correctly. And then we get to see with the other Trojan characters. It's like, when the rules don't protect you anymore and your world is destroyed. What do you have to do to survive? And so it's kind of a great, like, she's kind of a great before picture of maybe what Trojan society was like. Um, and she, she gives us her prophecy and it goes a dark haired creature, a winter fall. Eyes do not shut, not barely at all. And again, very ominous, very like non-specific. And this is the way she read it. She interpreted it to be about a pet horse that she had.

• 1:00:52Speaker 06

  Who fell and broke its leg and had to be put down. And then she experienced insomnia for the rest of her life. So it's a great example of how like you can have a personal prophecy and just read like something completely ordinary into it.

• 1:01:08Speaker 06

  But at the same time, it's like, what if that's actually a reference to the Trojan horse, like a fake horse that shows up and its eyes don't close?

• 1:01:16Speaker 01

  Truly, I, I'm kind of going off of, uh, uh, the marks that the Trojans have.

• 1:01:25Speaker 01

  I kind of, and way I, um, perceived it was. That that was something they got afterwards. Like it, for me, it felt like a dis- a distinguish, a distinguisher. Once Troy fell, like this is how you can like physically mark that people are othered, you know?

• 1:01:49Speaker 06

  That's a good point. Cause we don't know when Prue.

• 1:01:51Speaker 07

  Actually died.

• 1:01:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, and so I was always like, cause, cause in a way then, you know, when you are um a a person who is othered in society or who has been put in like um sort of that position of like I can talk like, like indigenous people in North America and Canada. Um, you know, people in my community who are either follow the rules, follow the rules that keeps you safe.

• 1:02:20Speaker 07

  Mm hmm.

• 1:02:20Speaker 01

  You know, follow the rules to the T, even if it is to a detriment of us. Because that will at least do keep you safe. It'll keep you out of prison. You'll be going down a right road versus the people who go, no, this system is trying to erase us. And I'm going to defy that. And you know, the, the crime that we see the Trojans do is like, it's so tame compared like, I'm like,

• 1:02:50Speaker 01

  sure, for people who believe in a system, that would be extremely horrific. But that is not that bad and it does not deserve death. And you can see people who live in, who are othered or who are live in diaspora or who are, you know, minorities in communities rebel in those ways that are very, very small, really in context. But it is, it is making a point. It is saying, we are here, we want to survive. And I think that's interesting between Prue and then, you know, all the other Trojans. And then I also think it's interesting that Prue, being the one who is super by the book, do everything right. She's the dead one. Well, the ones who are, you know, until he put them, they, they put them to death. The ones who are pushing back and who are actively kind of fighting,

• 1:03:36Speaker 01

  they're still alive versus Prue, who maybe was like, let's work within the system, whatever, but try not to make a scene, try not to make any waves. She's the one who ends up dying and she's in the underworld now.

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• 1:05:25Speaker 06

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• 1:05:51Speaker 06

  And the thing to consider with Prue too is she didn't have coins. Therefore, she's stuck in the underworld. She didn't get to, uh, what's the word? Uh, re-

• 1:06:01Speaker 01

  Reset? No.

• 1:06:04Speaker 06

  I know, I'm blinking all of a sudden.

• 1:06:05Speaker 01

  Go through the thingamababa and-

• 1:06:07Speaker 06

  Yeah, go through-

• 1:06:08Speaker 07

  Through the frame?

• 1:06:09Speaker 06

  Yeah, through the frame and re-

• 1:06:12Speaker 01

  Refresh.

• 1:06:13Speaker 06

  Some, yeah, it's like refresh is all that's coming to mind.

• 1:06:18Speaker 06

  But no one knows what actually is supposed to happen. Like, we find out what is happening.

• 1:06:26Speaker 07

  Are we talking about the renewal, like?

• 1:06:28Speaker 06

  Renewal.

• 1:06:29Speaker 07

  Okay, it's like, what are we talking, okay. They were supposed to renew, but they never did.

• 1:06:36Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 1:06:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:06:37Speaker 06

  And there is something to suggest, like, renewal is a real thing, or

• 1:06:43Speaker 01

  was.

• 1:06:44Speaker 06

  What happened before the meander water system was put into place.

• 1:06:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:06:47Speaker 06

  Something happened, and not even the gods know what that is. They just know they're disrupting the, what was the original natural order of things. Um, and it's causing problems. So, but yeah, long story short, Prue also as this by the books kind of character, you know, did not receive coins. Now, again, I think that ties into a, a possible reading of if there's a Trojan war that has happened that's displaced all these people. You know, how many people die in these mass killing events that never receive proper burial? And that she could be a result of that. You know, I, I don't, I think Prue is one of these characters that we were kind of meant to like,

• 1:07:31Speaker 06

  find annoying and not want to think too much about, and she was gonna be really important down the line.

• 1:07:37Speaker 07

  Potentially.

• 1:07:38Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:07:39Speaker 07

  And I, I was thinking about this point of like, the, like going a little bit further back.

• 1:07:46Speaker 07

  The punishment that the Trojan like received in that frame, where it's like totally like out of proportion for what they've done, right? But again, it allows us to see, um, in a way how, um, paranoid at this point, like Zeus is becoming. Uh, how like, of course, like, we've seen him being like, that narcissist and this like, uh, characterized by his megalomania, but now he's like, clearly we see the abuser of power, like Zeus.

• 1:08:20Speaker 07

  That is like, no, like this needs to happen for no. Big reason, right?

• 1:08:26Speaker 06

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:08:26Speaker 07

  But it's, which makes things even like worse. But also allows for this deck three, going back to the more characters, to gradually um find themselves, like not being able to take this anymore and actually starting to like um awaken and finding in them to say, no, like, things need to be done differently.

• 1:08:53Speaker 06

  Yeah. Yeah, I, I think that scene, and maybe this, we can talk about the Trojans a little bit more broadly because again, this is a storyline that's teased in a lot of ways and I think was gonna be really important in one of the subsequent seasons. Because like Cassandra is also one of my favorite characters and you barely get anything with her, but I love her every time I see her. And there is no clear, it's a Styonex and a few other young Trojans who get a bunch of cow excrement or something and throw it on this monument to be revealed for the gods. And Zeus is furious and he, he is worried. Like, he's already got this prophecy in mind that this will slip into something even worse, right?

• 1:09:38Speaker 06

  Like, it's not actually that, it's, it's not a big crime at all. It's funny, like, you know what the message was and intent was.

• 1:09:46Speaker 07

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:09:48Speaker 06

  But the response is so cruel. And it's forced, that response is forced through the actions of other mortals, King Minos in particular. And I think that's, you know, kind of one of my questions then is like, were, was a Styonex and the other Trojans, were they, was this message for King Minos and the people of Crete being like, hey, you're treating us like shit? So like, we're going to disrupt this gift that you're giving to the gods? Or is there, I'm, I'm, maybe it's both. Maybe the, is this a message to the gods? Because they also had a greater role in what happened to Troy. Um, that's been hinted at in that first season, but we don't get a lot of background on.

• 1:10:34Speaker 07

  I I think it might be a little bit of both. Um, in the sense that um. The way that King Min is presenting and he like presents his rulership as well is like really. Um, directly like connected to the gods, so like a vessel of the gods. Um, in the world of the morts, like it's um, a pretty like. Clear, structured, like rulership in that way. So I think it goes both ways, uh, potentially within that, yes, of course, like. Um, they're like government, the people who are really uh, treating them like.

• 1:11:12Speaker 07

  Nothing, really, they have really um, put them on the side, uh, trying to like to restrict them. Um, but also that is kind of like a rulership that comes down like it's it's a kind of. Um, a way of um, governing that's almost like inherited from the divine world, it seems. So I think it could go, could go both ways, but I would love to have seen more of that. And especially like at the end with like Ari forming this alliance with. Uh, Andromache, who's not like the leader of the Trojans.

• 1:11:49Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 1:11:50Speaker 07

  And I mean, she clearly turns like, help, like, help me or help us, like, that's the mutual contract, like.

• 1:11:56Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 1:11:56Speaker 07

  Take the gods down, like, help, help me find the gods.

• 1:12:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:12:01Speaker 07

  So.

• 1:12:01Speaker 01

  And. And I think too, I think um, is.

• 1:12:07Speaker 01

  They are, they operate within the same sort of belief system, you know?

• 1:12:12Speaker 07

  Mm hmm.

• 1:12:12Speaker 01

  Um, so the Trojans were, you know, of a different city. But they believe in sort of the same gods, but then when you see these, these um, things happening in Heraklion on Crete. Like, um, it reminds me of how, you know, in antiquity, each, each city is its own little thing.

• 1:12:30Speaker 07

  Mm hmm.

• 1:12:31Speaker 01

  Um, and each thing has the own way of um, or own like religious festivals and sort of religious calendar, right? So now, like, this is Crete, this is Heraklion's way of doing things and. Um, especially with Minos feeling so connected, like getting his position from the gods. This is important to him and would be important to the people of Crete. I feel like there was that implication there. We owe this to this specifically. The Trojans don't have that. They may believe in the gods, but they're like, it's almost in a way, it's like, it's almost like not my gods, but like.

• 1:13:04Speaker 01

  Not the way I interact with my gods. This is important. And so I don't know. I feel like for me, it's, it felt more of a message to the people of Crete than to the gods. But like, likely, I mean, sure, to the gods as well, but like. I wonder how many people are actually as obsessed with the gods in that world versus. What we see, like we have, um, I don't remember her name, the woman who's always wanted to be a tacita.

• 1:13:32Speaker 06

  Uh, yeah.

• 1:13:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:13:35Speaker 06

  I wanna say.

• 1:13:37Speaker 01

  Agatha?

• 1:13:38Speaker 06

  That's kind of what I was leaning towards.

• 1:13:40Speaker 07

  I think so.

• 1:13:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, like we see that there are some people who are super intense about it. But like, everybody else is kind of just like, doot doot doot doo doo, like it doesn't seem like it's.

• 1:13:50Speaker 06

  Well, you have tacitas too.

• 1:13:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, but that's still a small percentage of people compared to the vast majority of people. Like it could, there could be like. I don't know, I have a friend who refers to herself as a salad bar Catholic. She's like, you know, it's like, it could be a, it's a cultural thing versus intense belief. Like we have that in our world show where we have different sort of. Registers. So, and, and younger generations tend to kind of slip away from things for a while.

• 1:14:22Speaker 01

  You know, and so Stianax and all his friends, I mean, I can understand their anger.

• 1:14:28Speaker 01

  And their anger, it could be perceived towards the gods. It could also be perceived towards those who are. Actively oppressing them day to day.

• 1:14:39Speaker 06

  It's it's interesting, because like, one of the things that Zeus is doing that we're aware of is he's like, I'm like, I need people to come back to God. Have a come to Jesus moment, but I'm Jesus, I'm God. So he's doing all of these like mass weather events and things like that. And you you know, historically, archaeologically, we see evidence so. Because I do ancient medicine is like when plagues start to happen. We see more dedications to healing gods and healing cults and less. When Asclepius gets really big in Athens, and then later when the plague goes to Rome, they're like, let's bring this guy over here too. And so there can definitely be events that bring people to religion more and be interesting to see if like.

• 1:15:24Speaker 06

  Maybe part of this backlash, maybe what you have to start dealing with are these like groups of people are like, oh, we really. Need to get religious again. We really need to fix this problem. Uh, the iconoclasm was very similar, right? Like, um, when. Christian, you know, uh, Christianity in Europe and was. Being threatened by Islam and they're like, oh, well, they don't show God, they don't show their prophets in images, so we're going to get rid of all of ours. Like, there's really strong reactions, um, religious reactions when things are going poorly. So I think that could be an interesting way to explore it. Um, if it's not just Troy, it's like, oh, Troy has just went off.

• 1:16:06Speaker 06

  Now, if it's happening everywhere in the world, hmm, maybe we're going to get a little religious now.

• 1:16:13Speaker 06

  Which I think, again, would have spoken really well to our current situation of. You know, there's a lot happening in the world and there's also these religious movements that are supposedly offering solutions to that problem.

• 1:16:29Speaker 06

  So that I think that could have been really interesting to see in the long run. Uh, yeah, and I think, I think so. One of my predictions is because we see Riddi.

• 1:16:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:16:41Speaker 06

  With Cassandra at the end, I'm like, yes. I think there would have been a visit to Troy. Maybe we would have learned. I think that was a good observation. Cause I think we're told Poseidon, Zeus gave Poseidon Crete to deal with as he wanted.

• 1:16:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:16:56Speaker 06

  And so it'd be really interesting if like Troy was another place given to someone to rule over. And if maybe that's one of the reasons why children are not talking to Zeus. Even children that we would expect to talk to Zeus, like Athena or something. I don't think she would be very pro Trojan, but.

• 1:17:14Speaker 01

  No, she has her own city already.

• 1:17:16Speaker 06

  Yeah, yeah. So I think that would have been interesting to see if there was more gods involved. And we see why there's already been a splintering amongst the family before.

• 1:17:26Speaker 01

  Cause when I think of like.

• 1:17:27Speaker 06

  This season.

• 1:17:28Speaker 01

  Which gods are connected to Troy.

• 1:17:31Speaker 06

  It's.

• 1:17:31Speaker 01

  Poseidon, because he helped build the walls and everything.

• 1:17:35Speaker 06

  So you have Aphrodite.

• 1:17:36Speaker 07

  Aphrodite.

• 1:17:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17:37Speaker 06

  Aphrodite.

• 1:17:39Speaker 07

  Very much so.

• 1:17:40Speaker 06

  I could have been so good.

• 1:17:41Speaker 01

  Aphrodite.

• 1:17:42Speaker 06

  Aphrodite.

• 1:17:43Speaker 07

  It's daddy.

• 1:17:44Speaker 06

  Artemis.

• 1:17:45Speaker 07

  It's Papoza.

• 1:17:47Speaker 06

  It's Papoza. Aphrodite, I think Aphrodite and Artemis.

• 1:17:53Speaker 01

  Got different one. Aphrodite got daddy.

• 1:17:55Speaker 06

  Artemis was mostly just to get like, anytime she can be against Hera, she's happy to like be opposite of Hera. Cause I remember that being part of the Iliad, like she gets boxed by Hera because she's like, I don't want to do that. So, yeah, I think that could have been really interesting.

• 1:18:11Speaker 01

  Apollo, I think is the one I think of when I think of Troy as well.

• 1:18:14Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:18:15Speaker 01

  He did some stuff there.

• 1:18:16Speaker 07

  Yeah, and Ares.

• 1:18:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:18:18Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:18:18Speaker 01

  True too.

• 1:18:20Speaker 06

  Ares. Makes a lot of sense. Although, oh, that would have been so interesting, because Ares is the son of Hera. But the wa- the husband, or the like, plaything of Aphrodite, oh, that could have been so fun.

• 1:18:35Speaker 07

  Like, I also wondered, like, at the end, when um Hera is like calling. Something, what would make sense in my head would be she's calling like Ares. She's preparing for a war, right? So, that's the guy you would call.

• 1:18:51Speaker 06

  Yeah, that's definitely who I thought she was calling, for sure.

• 1:18:55Speaker 01

  Sam, I was like, oh, so excited.

• 1:18:57Speaker 06

  But I, I could, and then, yeah, that could be a great introduction into Aphrodite and this conflict uh at Troy that led to the refugee crisis. And all of that.

• 1:19:08Speaker 06

  Can someone, any streaming service, just wrestle the rights to this show from Netflix?

• 1:19:14Speaker 07

  Maybe we petition, like, let's, like, I don't know.

• 1:19:19Speaker 06

  Again, it's like, we just need more people to watch and be like, where's the rest of this? There needs to be more.

• 1:19:25Speaker 01

  Complain until you get what you want.

• 1:19:28Speaker 07

  And um, I think since like you brought uh up this um idea of like Zeus and how broken like his relationship is with his own like kids. I think the, this re- um, connection of the mothers with their like daughters in the mortal world. The mortal world, like, really like uh contradicts that even further, like highlights even more so how broken their relationships are in this kind of like endocentric, like oppressive um, world of uh the gods, right? And how um, these three mortals with the um

• 1:20:12Speaker 07

  relationships they built or rebuild can actually um, change um, that.

• 1:20:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, and yeah, something I find interesting is whenever we see men in the positions of like, uh, in, in the context of family or as fathers or something, they're never doing a good job of it. Like, in the show, like, I, we have Zeus and Minos, so really the two dads we see.

• 1:20:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, even if they're, even if they're well meaning, they're not doing great. You know what I mean? Like, cause I'll give mine else, even if he's well meaning, not doing a good job of it. And when I feel like when we see action that is pushing towards progress or change or this has like an echo of hope in it. It is coming from women and it's also it's coming from mothers specifically, like we see that with um Andromachee. And like vaguely with Hecuba, I mean, Hecuba is old and tired, that poor woman, she's, you know, not to be part of things. But Andromachee is fighting, she was fighting for her kids and even after her kids die, she is fighting for the future kids.

• 1:21:18Speaker 07

  Yeah, yeah, it's coming like from women and like gender other carry like.

• 1:21:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:21:22Speaker 07

  Kind news, like it's whoa, whoever like has been in different ways othered or like oppressed that.

• 1:21:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:21:30Speaker 07

  Really uh has like this uh carries with them like this hope for change.

• 1:21:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, and then there was like, there is affection and there is like an actual genuine love of the world almost, of humanity, of what things could be versus what they are. There and like there's um this like recognition of things that'll work, so it's like, how do we change this? And it's, I don't know, I was just, I love the view of mothers in this, like even, even Hera, like terrible mother. But like, I'm obsessed with her as a, as a, as a character, I have my own thoughts of, of sort of like seeing her as a woman who is stuck within the system and how do you function within the system? And you know, not necess, she's not doing a great job, but she

• 1:22:21Speaker 01

  has some power and there is some affection there in some ways, even if it's shown in really like, whoa, that was a bad way of showing it or of.

• 1:22:32Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:22:33Speaker 07

  I would have loved to seen like where they would they would go with here, cause like Carleen, my mind like. How uh you know, how the show has gone for her, she's very much like a a part. Of the patriarchal structure like.

• 1:22:49Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 1:22:49Speaker 07

  She's all about like power for that matter, like the way she treats um Zeus is like lovers, like turning them into bees and like. Having them, like there is some, I I would agree, there's some affection she has for them, uh in a way and.

• 1:23:05Speaker 06

  And for the Tacitus.

• 1:23:06Speaker 07

  And for the Tacitus too, but she's still using kind of like she's using.

• 1:23:11Speaker 01

  She uses the system, I feel, and and and for me, at least when it comes to like the bees, in some way I see it as like. As it it removes them from Zeus's dominion in a way, like. Is it disturbing and not the right way to do it? Yes, absolutely.

• 1:23:31Speaker 06

  It's also a lot milder than some of her other punishments we know of, from Greek mythology.

• 1:23:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, like she's still.

• 1:23:36Speaker 06

  She still puts them within a community of each other.

• 1:23:39Speaker 01

  See her out there caring for them too, like it it's.

• 1:23:42Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 1:23:42Speaker 01

  It's strange because it is, uh but I think it it's it's sort of like emblematic of. Women who are stuck in the system and don't really, who who are trying to function within the system but not change the system.

• 1:23:55Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 1:23:56Speaker 01

  Do you know what I mean? Like they're trying to just.

• 1:23:57Speaker 07

  Yeah, kind of survive like in that system, like find her place and like se- secure her place in the system, but not necessarily trying to change it or like help.

• 1:24:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, and then in a way she's trying to protect other people, other women from it, but she does it in a way that's not actually like.

• 1:24:12Speaker 06

  Helpful.

• 1:24:13Speaker 01

  Helpful, yeah, no, it's like, uh this is ultimately harmful, but.

• 1:24:18Speaker 06

  Well, and I my thought too was that. I think what the show did a good job, and maybe I don't even think this was intentional, was showing that these women. Kept being capable of building relationships with other people, so did Canaas.

• 1:24:34Speaker 06

  And most of the male characters are very isolated. Morpheus is so focused on just his love for Riddi. Right? So it's like his love for a woman isolates him. Um, Zeus is very isolated. He's the one who tells us at the end of the season that, you know, love or caring for things is a weakness and you have to kill that weakness. So he is isolating himself. Poseidon is similarly like he, he kinda only really cares about Hera. And Hera is also just using him. Because she can, it's beneficial to her. And I think Hades might be this weird exception because he does have Persephone and there's, there's real affection there.

• 1:25:19Speaker 07

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:25:20Speaker 06

  But he's also obsessed with making his brother's system work and that's frustrating Persephone. So like you can see the strain that this system puts on people. And the funny thing is, is like Zeus believes that like his family is still his family. He also still kinda believes that Prometheus is his best friend, even though he's torturing him.

• 1:25:41Speaker 07

  But he's still like having him, I mean, on an album that like rock, like he's using him. And he considers him like a best friend, but he's still like, no, I like, we don't have to be like all the time together. You're still like punished.

• 1:25:55Speaker 06

  Yeah. And I think, and that that's why the end too is like, okay, Zeus is truly isolated himself at the end. And he's lost his power over Prometheus. And it looks like Prometheus has been put into a position of power. It's really interesting to see then, is Prometheus going to continue that? Is he going to, cause he did something similar to the mothers in making sacrifices for their children. Uh, the relationship, he sacrifices his relationship with Karan to make this thing come about. But he had to actually kill. His lover.

• 1:26:30Speaker 07

  Yeah. And um, like going back to like, uh, talking about Hades that you mentioned, I know like gods are not the main.

• 1:26:37Speaker 06

  It's all good, it's all good.

• 1:26:39Speaker 07

  But what I find interesting, very interesting with him is like the first time he's introduced, you know, how they do like this uh, black screen with the letters like to introduce the character. Like for him, there's a parenthesis that says like guilty conscience. Which I find like very interesting because yes, he's like. Helping Zeus and like trying to sustain like this framework they've created. But it it looks like it's almost like eating him alive, like it's kind of killing him. Uh, and the person like he's kind of losing his power.

• 1:27:12Speaker 06

  He looks frail compared to Zeus, like and Zeus appears scared of what becoming like Hades.

• 1:27:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, but I and I think the thing with Hades is he is confronted with it every day. He isn't, he doesn't just benefit from it. He doesn't just get the benefits. He has to see it. He has to, you know, he is the one who has to go walk out and see these people who have had this happen to them. Like he is the one who has to. You know, watch all these dead people come and go through and sort of like he is living within that. Sort of structure while Zeus just benefits from it, you know, he gets his meander water sent right.

• 1:27:44Speaker 06

  So removed from it, yeah.

• 1:27:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, so he doesn't actually, he's he's not aware of like. He he doesn't have interaction with people. He doesn't have interaction with them at the end and and so like seeing um Hades. You know, he has a guilty conscience like a good.

• 1:28:03Speaker 01

  Speaks volumes to his character that at least he, there is something about this that he knows like it weighs on him and it's like, oh, I don't like this. This doesn't feel good for me. Um, there's a bit, there's some humanity and we're seeing that that little bits of humanity. Yep, it's kind of delightful.

• 1:28:17Speaker 07

  Yeah, yeah, and like, um, if I may, like drawing on that point about humanity, which I think it's like it's the core like of the show, like the. Beauty of it and also um what you Chris said before about how Zeus says like love is like a weakness. It's what like would destroy the gods. It's actually what kind of brought me um back into this like. Idea like the three morals and their like uh empowerment through myth, but also the relationships they build because um.

• 1:28:48Speaker 07

  I I was reading like some work of uh the feminist loss of like Lucy Rigoré and like the way she um kind of states that mythology underlies patriarchy like has not changed from the ancient to modern world, right? And she um kind of in critiquing uh the patriarchal structures of the modern western world, she kind of positions the murder of this like mythological mother like Clytemnestra and um but by a rest like at the foundation of order in the male-dominated sphere of the city. And what she uh suggests in a sense that retracing this like archetypal

• 1:29:28Speaker 07

  mother-child relationship and like rediscovering the relationship of love and support um between um women and the other characters is what can help kind of subvert um this very like um patriarchal like structures of our world. Um and I was listening to a um an interview of Charlie Cobell and they said that one of their first like words like their engagement with the ancient uh world of course like started with the Clash of the Titans and stuff, but uh they started like writing their own like mini uh plays kind of. And the first one was Clytemnestra. It was a play about Clytemnestra. And I was like, oh my, okay, wait.

• 1:30:11Speaker 06

  Mm hmm.

• 1:30:12Speaker 07

  Could be a coincidence, right? Very much, but I like I I make the connection. I see the line appearing and the fall like almost being there.

• 1:30:25Speaker 06

  I mean, I was like that theory that you were talking about just checks out so much because if we go to um the the oh shoot, the Arenae's, the Humanities play.

• 1:30:36Speaker 07

  Mm hmm.

• 1:30:37Speaker 06

  Where Orestes is on trial.

• 1:30:38Speaker 07

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:30:39Speaker 06

  And the argument is basically made is like, actually, there is no blood relation between mother and child. She is just a mere vessel. And it's like, it's almost the ulta separate ultimate separation of claim.

• 1:30:50Speaker 07

  Exactly.

• 1:30:51Speaker 06

  Of this.

• 1:30:54Speaker 06

  Women grew humans in their body.

• 1:30:56Speaker 07

  Literally by their, they are fed by.

• 1:31:02Speaker 06

  Thing, yeah, and and yeah, like re. That's just it, right? And Athena Athena agrees that I think that's what kills me about Athena. As a Greek goddess is like, I don't think I can ever root for Athena because.

• 1:31:17Speaker 01

  She's always the guy's goddess, you know what I mean?

• 1:31:20Speaker 07

  I think as a kid, she was like my favorite, but uh as I grow up. I'm seeing so much into her and I'm like, ah.

• 1:31:28Speaker 06

  I think the thing is, like, when you see her when you're younger, you're like, wow, woman.

• 1:31:34Speaker 06

  And then you get older and older and you're like, oh, oh, God, oh, God, she's agreeing with the patriarchal system too much.

• 1:31:39Speaker 01

  She's a pygmy girl. She's a pygmy girl and it hurts.

• 1:31:42Speaker 07

  I mean, again, of course, we have to situate in its own like time and place and what it serves to serve. But also when we have the chance to talk about this myths in the modern world. Then there's also a responsibility we have to like explain. Uh what was that system and how it worked, but also. How we engage with the narratives and stories now, because that that really matters. And I like, again, I think Chaos did such a good like job.

• 1:32:14Speaker 01

  Beautiful job of it, yeah. Sorry, go ahead.

• 1:32:19Speaker 06

  I was just gonna add, I think, I think. I think love being a major component. Like for people for each other, because we see at the very end when Canaeus is able to bring but his mother back. He has this flash of affectionate moments, not just with his mom, but like with everyone in his life. And that's what revives her, basically. And like that definitely was the overall message to me is like us actually caring about each other is what matters.

• 1:32:46Speaker 07

  Exactly, like the love and support for one another uh can create like this line of power. Almost like this line of life. That can uh fight back the not leaving the life because you're so preoccupied.

• 1:33:03Speaker 07

  I sustain like your power.

• 1:33:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:33:05Speaker 07

  Like your prophecy, your destiny, um, your glory. Uh, but I think it's a lot about like the power.

• 1:33:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I think and I think it's also very much shown as an extremely human quality. And I think that is like one of the things like I really took away from the show and it's something I always look for is like where. And why I also kind of love antiquity is seeing that that humanness where you see it's like, oh, you know, that was a person because we love that much. We have that like, we have the capacity for empathy and care and sympathy and. And for holding space for so many different things, even if they're small and banal, like. You know, people drop a pen and they go, oh, no, sorry. And they pick it up. Why are you apologizing to an inanimate object? Because there's like humans, we make connections with these, like, uh, what is it?

• 1:33:53Speaker 01

  Dogs, dogs, um, evolved eyebrows so they could better communicate with us, like.

• 1:34:00Speaker 06

  I have a golden retriever. That is very true. Her eyes are so expressive.

• 1:34:04Speaker 01

  So like, it is a very human thing to to love and to care about people. And to go out of your way to make sure people are okay and and other things are okay and looked after. But in a society that doesn't value that and in the heavily patriarchal sort of like capitalist society that kind of. Puts power and profit over anything else. And this is a system, like, I don't, I don't wanna say point this down to like, I don't wanna, you know. Point fingers at people because it is a system that we have fallen into. It devalues that. And so like shows like this are just all it's saying is stop, go back to the community for a little bit, you know?

• 1:34:42Speaker 07

  Absolutely.

• 1:34:42Speaker 01

  Sit with with yours and your own and make time for that and make time to care. And to love and, you know, and don't look for differences, just look, just, yeah, love.

• 1:34:58Speaker 06

  And like my biggest take takeaway from the show was having watched it and like. It ends in season one, it ends with a lot of like, bad things have just happened.

• 1:35:12Speaker 06

  We have so many unanswered questions, but that season still led left me so hopeful of what could be achieved by these people who have found themselves, found their agency and found purpose to help others. And like, I don't know many shows that make me feel like that much anymore. And this one did and it it feels good every time.

• 1:35:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:35:37Speaker 07

  I mean, you you have a show that ends with somebody like

• 1:35:41Speaker 07

  bringing back to life, I mean, in the underworld, but still.

• 1:35:45Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:35:45Speaker 07

  Um, given in in a sense like re renewing uh the soul uh somebody even in the underworld and you you we don't get that uh that much.

• 1:35:58Speaker 06

  And and she had faith that her son could do it too.

• 1:36:01Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 1:36:02Speaker 06

  Like that was the best part. She's like

• 1:36:03Speaker 07

  I know.

• 1:36:04Speaker 06

  She she has like such a sense of like, things are gonna go really poorly for me. But I, even though I haven't seen my son in so many years and like they might not, he might not understand why I did what I did. He maybe he hates me. I don't know, but I have faith. I have faith.

• 1:36:20Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 1:36:21Speaker 06

  In my child.

• 1:36:22Speaker 07

  Awesome.

• 1:36:23Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:36:25Speaker 06

  Oh, all right, well. Are there any other final thoughts? That feels like a good note to end on, but like I don't wanna like

• 1:36:32Speaker 01

  Moms are great.

• 1:36:33Speaker 07

  I agree. Moms are great.

• 1:36:36Speaker 01

  I'm gonna call my mom after this. She'll be so annoyed. Like I'm busy and I'll be like, I love you.

• 1:36:43Speaker 07

  It's important to say that. I mean, cause we know we go about our daily lives and we just forget. We take it for granted. But it's not like we should uh take that moment and say that.

• 1:36:55Speaker 01

  Usually, most moms, some caveat, moms suck, but

• 1:36:59Speaker 07

  There are some.

• 1:37:00Speaker 01

  I do, I do, I do love my mother when I say I love you and she goes, what do you want? I'm like, she's Nancy. I just want you to know I love you.

• 1:37:08Speaker 06

  There is a higher purpose your mother accepted.

• 1:37:10Speaker 07

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:37:12Speaker 01

  You know what? Never mind. Hang up.

• 1:37:18Speaker 01

  Oh, okay.

• 1:37:21Speaker 06

  Well, if there's nothing else, I do want to say Anastasia, thank you so much for joining us today to discuss chaos.

• 1:37:28Speaker 07

  Thank you. I had, like, it was my first time as a before. I really enjoyed it. Um, thanks for the great discussion.

• 1:37:36Speaker 06

  Always, always. And I'm, I'm sure, like, Liv's already reached out to you and is very excited for your other research. So I'm sure

• 1:37:43Speaker 07

  I'll be happy to.

• 1:37:44Speaker 06

  I'm sure her listeners will be hearing more from you and I'm excited to hear more from you.

• 1:37:48Speaker 01

  And we can figure out a time. We all just, I'll shoot you an email, maybe later today, tomorrow. I'll, you know what? I'm gonna write it down, because otherwise I will forget.

• 1:37:56Speaker 06

  And while you write it down, Michaela, if people would like to learn more about you and your work, Anastasia, is there someplace they can go? Or is there any projects you want to plug?

• 1:38:04Speaker 07

  Um, well, there is my personal website, like my name, anastasiapanazapu.com, and I, uh, update it as often, like, uh, as I can. So a lot of my research and my public humanities, digitally meant projects are there. Um, and, um, yeah, my, um, contact info there. So I'm more than happy to always talk about anything and everything that relates to the ancient and modern world.

• 1:38:30Speaker 06

  Awesome.

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