Investigating The True History Of MKUltra & CIA Mind Control - John Lisle

John Lisle is a historian and an author. The government’s history of secret experiments feels stranger than fiction. Covert projects, UFOs, mind reading, even studies of the occult. But no operation is more infamous than MKUltra. What really happened inside the CIA’s most notorious mind control experiment, and how much of its legacy still shapes our world today? Expect to learn where the CIA got their interest in mind control from, what the origins of MKUltra were and how it got it’s name, the double lives of the head scientists behind the project, how LSD and other drugs we’re used in secret mind control experiments by the government and if any of their findings had any objective value, the most unethical experiments MKUltra did and what ended up leading to it's downfall and much more… - 00:00 Researching MKUltra, The CIA, & Mind Control 15:14 MKUltra’s Origin & LSD Experiments 26:41 The Main Scientists Behind MKUltra 30:41 CIA Funding & Celebrity Involvement 41:30 Experiments On Mental Health 47:27 The Worst & Unethical Brain Experiments 52:27 Did MKUltra Create Anything Useful? 1:01:14 The Downfall Of MKUltra 1:09:30 The “Project Monarch” Conspiracy Theory 1:14:44 Find Out More About John - Get access to every episode 10 hours before YouTube by subscribing for free on Spotify - https://spoti.fi/2LSimPn or Apple Podcasts - https://apple.co/2MNqIgw Get my free Reading List of 100 life-changing books here - https://chriswillx.com/books/ Try my productivity energy drink Neutonic here - https://neutonic.com/modernwisdom - Get in touch in the comments below or head to... Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/chriswillx Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/chriswillx Email: https://chriswillx.com/contact/

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Chris Williamson?

  How did you find all of this out? Like, where did you do all of the research for this stuff? This is, I didn't think that you could top the insanity of the last book that you wrote, but you've managed to do it. Congratulations.

• 0:12Speaker 01

  Thank you, thank you. This book was really exciting because I found a lot of new documents about MKUltra, specifically some depositions, about a, maybe over a dozen depositions that were taken in the 1980s as part of a lawsuit against the perpetrators of MKUltra, against the CIA. And as part of these depositions, I have the perpetrators, Sidney Gottlieb, the head of MKUltra, his right-hand man, Robert Lashbrook, the head of the CIA, Richard Helms, they are questioned by these attorneys, and I have the verbatim transcript of them talking about what they were doing in the CIA as part of MKUltra, why they wanted to do this, how they got away with it. So I have some great transcripts. So that's, that's really the basis of the book, are these verbatim dialogues, which

• 0:56Speaker 01

  is so exciting for a historian, because usually in history, you never get dialogue, because nobody's there to write it down. You know, I'm not going to quote something if I don't have the verbatim quote. That's usually a thing you can do in fiction to get inside the heads of the readers, or into the heads of the characters. But for me, I now have this dialogue, so I get to play with it and work with it. And oh, it's just been so fun getting into their heads and seeing what they say.

• 1:18Chris Williamson?

  How, I'm interested in why the CIA was keen to look at mind control in any case. What happens during the 40s and the 50s for them to consider, yeah, this would be a good idea. This, this, this seems like an appropriate direction to go in.

• 1:37Speaker 01

  There are a few triggering events that lead them to want to perform experiments in mind control. And it's not just from the 40s or 50s, even further back. If you go back to the 1890s, you have Russian physiologist Ivan Pavlov, who's doing his famous behavioral conditioning experiments. You know, if you ring a bell, can you get a dog to salivate? And the thinking within the CIA was, well, if this Russian is doing that back in the 1890s, surely they've since extended that work in order to include human subjects now. And if they could get a dog to salivate a bell, what might they be able to get a human to do with drugs or something else? So it's that kind of slippery slope thinking that leads into this. Another event that precipitated MKUltra was the Moscow Show Trials. This is when Stalin was purging kind of his enemies from political power,

• 2:22Speaker 01

  and he put them on trial for false charges that they didn't do. And yet they admitted to doing them. So there are these false charges and then they, they on their hands and knees are begging to be found guilty. Why would they do this? One explanation that develops within the CIA is maybe they've been mind controlled. Maybe there's drugs or hypnotism or something they've been manipulated with. And if that's the case, we need to know what they are doing so we can prevent it. And so maybe we can do it ourselves. But then the most important event that precipitated MKUltra was the downing of several American POWs during the Korean War. These pilots are downed in their planes, they're taken prisoner. And while they're prisoners in Korea, these American pilots admit to doing things like dropping germ bombs on the Koreans,

• 3:07Speaker 01

  dropping typhus and cholera and bubonic plague, trying to spread these diseases throughout the Korean population. Now, we, we know now from Russian archives especially, that there are some Korean officials who flew to China and who got samples of bubonic plague and took it back and infected their own Korean soldiers in order to make it seem as if the Americans had done this. But the question within the CIA, they didn't know that at the time. The question was, why would these Americans admit to this? Why would they say this? The same with the Moscow Show Trials. Are they being drugged? Are they being hypnotized? And so that spurs interest in answering these questions, which is eventually what leads to the development of this program, MKUltra.

• 3:46Chris Williamson?

  Hmm. Okay. Sidney Gottlieb, this mastermind.

• 3:52Chris Williamson?

  How does he get selected for this? What makes him an attractive candidate? What's his sort of comeuppance?

• 3:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, he is a chemist within the CIA. His background is in bio-organic chemistry. He has a PhD in it from Caltech. And during World War II, so a few years before this, in 1943, he gets his PhD and he desperately wants to volunteer for the army. He wants to join the army because his parents were immigrants from Hungary and he felt that he owed this country a debt for allowing his immigrant parents to come over and for allowing him to live a life here. And so he wanted to join the army, but he was refused service because he had a limp. He was born with club feet. He also talked with a stutter. And that had a really psychological effect on him. The fact that he had always seen himself from a young age as an outsider. Kids would always make fun of him for his limp and stutter. And this seemed to reinforce that fact that he's an outsider.

• 4:42Speaker 01

  I was denied service in the army. And he was looking for a way that he could repay the debt that he felt that he owed his country. And so it just so happened that the CIA in particular was looking for some brilliant scientists like himself to join. Because right after World War II, science is now seen as integral to national security. We just had this war that ended with these atomic bombs. Those, that was physicists doing this. We need scientists within the intelligence community now to determine whether not only are the Soviets doing some kind of project themselves that we might figure out, but also how can we do those projects ourselves? So the fact that he was a brilliant scientist, that's what led him into this role. And it didn't hurt also that Allen Dulles, the head of the CIA at the time, he was also born with a club foot. And so he kind of took a liking to Sidney.

• 5:26Chris Williamson?

  Oh, God. We bonded over our physical deformity. Jimmy, how would you describe Gottlieb's personal philosophy? His nature, sort of the way that he presented his personality, that kind of stuff?

• 5:43Speaker 01

  He was maybe a new age sense of spirituality. His parents were Jewish and he was culturally Jewish, but he wasn't very religious. But he did have kind of this new age spirituality where he would meditate and dance to folk music and go on retreats. And, you know, I'm sure we'll talk about LSD, but he took LSD a lot. So that's a little bit about his psychology. It's a little ironic, maybe, that he becomes the head of MKUltra because he is an outsider. He doesn't really fit in with the typical CIA personnel that you might think of. Kind of the saying at the time was pale male in Yale. And so he didn't really come from that exact background. But yeah, so he has this a little bit different background from other people who are within

• 6:28Speaker 01

  the CIA that led him to really stand out and get noticed if nothing else.

• 6:34Chris Williamson?

  Okay, so Sidney Gottlieb, chemist, presumably with a interest in forward thinking, quasi spiritual, come early psychedelic bro type things. Concern from the United States. Why is it that some of our prisoners of war have been saying these weird things? What's going on with happening in Russia? What's happening across the rest of the world? People are saying, is this some sort of mind control? Can we get in on the action? Can we do a little bit of this? What's the beginning of the blending of Sidney and then sort of this desire? How does this all start?

• 7:10Speaker 01

  In 1953, Allen Dulles, the head of the CIA, he gives a speech at an alumni conference in Princeton University, just two alumni there, which to me is crazy that he would give this speech. It was called Brain Warfare. And at this speech, he talks about the potential that the Soviets might be using these techniques that we don't know about and we're falling behind in this mind control arms race. And, you know, we need to be ahead of the Soviets in every single arms race. So we need to start this program. It was three days after that speech that he signed the papers initiating this MKUltra program to research mind control to see if it's possible. So that's what initiated the MKUltra program in 1953. Sidney Gottlieb is placed as its head. And originally, he doesn't really know what to do because he's placed in this position,

• 7:55Speaker 01

  but he doesn't have a background in mind control or in, you know, psychedelic drugs or anything like that. So what he actually does. As he goes to the OSS archives, these old archives from World War II, the OSS was the precursor to the CIA, and he starts looking around the papers and he finds the work of Stanley Lovell, who my first book was about. And Stanley Lovell during World War II had done drug experiments. He had done, especially with THC, trying to determine whether it's a truth drug. And so Sidney Godlieb's career within the CIA very neatly parallels Stanley Lovell's career within the OSS. Both were involved in these drug experiments. Both were involved in creating weapons, gadgets, in disguises for their intelligence

• 8:37Speaker 01

  organization. Both were involved in assassination attempts. You know, the list goes on, but they're kind of stories eerily parallel one another. So this is one of the inspirations for Godlieb is the fact that he has this historical example that he can turn to for especially the drug experiments. But that's kind of the origins and start of MKUltra and how he comes to want to experiment in the ways that he actually does.

• 8:58Chris Williamson?

  But he, there's predecessors to MKUltra, right? MKUltra isn't sort of the first iteration of stepping into trying to do this stuff?

• 9:06Speaker 01

  Yes, that's exactly right. There were, before, within the CIA, there was a program called Bluebird. And the main focus of Bluebird was to create a truth drug. The saying about why its name was Bluebird was because they wanted to make prisoners sing like a bird. And so they had some drugs, not LSD at that time, that they were using. And there are some documents from the CIA that have been declassified that indicate that, you know, in some instances, it may seem to work, you know, the inhibitions are lowered when we give them these drugs and these captured spies. They actually do seem to be saying stuff that we otherwise didn't think that they would have. So maybe there's something to this that only spurs interest in wanting to repeat these experiments. Shortly after Bluebird, there's another program called Artichoke. It kind of morphs into Artichoke.

• 9:49Speaker 01

  And that's when the CIA and a couple of the military departments, they kind of coalesce a few programs that are pretty similar, like Bluebird, into one called Artichoke. That way, they don't duplicate each other's research and, you know, it saves expenditures. Artichoke was mostly focused on... Drugs as a means to develop truth drugs and some kind of mind control. They're also interested in hypnotism. One of the heads of Bluebird was a guy named Morse Allen. And he hired a stage magician to teach him how to manipulate people. So this magician teaches Morse Allen how to hypnotize people. And Morse Allen says that the magician would tell him stories of how the magician would go around town and hypnotize women into having sex with him and doing all kinds of stuff.

• 10:35Speaker 01

  So Morse Allen starts hypnotizing his secretaries in the office to try to really determine, is what he's saying true? Can you really manipulate someone? So early in the book, I talk about some of these experiments on these secretaries. He claims to have convinced one of them that she had regressed several weeks and was on a surfboard in the Gulf of Mexico on a vacation that she had previously taken. And she's really sitting in a chair and she falls off her surfboard, which is her chair. And she gulps down this imaginary seawater and she starts coughing and everything. But Morse Allen had a real problem, and that was, could he really trust these secretaries to be legitimately exhibiting these kind of mind control patterns? Or is it the case that they're just humoring him? That's what he starts to realize after a while.

• 11:19Speaker 01

  He thinks that, well, they're just humoring me. They're just going along with it because I'm their boss and they don't want to make me upset. And this seems to have been the case in a lot of hypnotism studies. There's one study I talk about. This is in France. And this guy hypnotizes a woman in front of a large crowd. And he tells her, okay, now you're gonna kill these people. And so she picks up a rubber dagger and starts stabbing them. And she puts poison into their drinks, allegedly not really knowing what she's doing. But as soon as one of his assistants shout out, now take your clothes off. She snaps out of it and all of a sudden she wakes back up and, oh, I'm not hypnotized anymore. So it's a matter of how much were they really going along with it as opposed to under the influence?

• 11:57Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, okay. So how does that morph into MKUltra? What sort of triggers the launch of that?

• 12:03Speaker 01

  It's really those Korean War pilots who get down. So those are before 1953. And then during the Korean War, that those pilots get shot down, captured, and talk about how they were allegedly dosing Koreans with germs. And so that instigates, now we need a broader program. That's not just hypnotism. We need something that's a little more encompassing. And that's where MKUltra eventually becomes a thing. And so MKUltra largely is focused on drugs. If anyone, you know, anyone listening to this knows about MKUltra, you're probably associating it with LSD. But that's not all MKUltra was. In fact, there was a lot of psychological experiments with it, such as electric shocks, sensory deprivation, what's called psychic driving, like repeating messages

• 12:47Speaker 01

  in someone's headphones for hours and hours, weeks and weeks on end. So, you know, we can talk about all that, but it's more than just drugs. Sometimes people get the impression that's it. It's a lot of other crazy stuff, too. In fact, one of the subprojects, maybe one of the most crazy ones, is implanting electrodes into the brains of animals to try to get them to move in predetermined directions. So basically to steer them like a remote control. The crazy thing about this sub-project, MKUltra is composed of 149 sub-projects. This was one of them, is it worked. It's actually worked. In the 19, late 1950s, they implanted electrodes into the brains of rats, cats, dogs. And especially with the dogs, you could actually get them to move on a predetermined path in a field.

• 13:29Speaker 01

  And the way that they did this is by stimulating pleasure centers of the brain through positive reinforcement. So if the dog moved in a correct direction, they would reinforce that stimulus. And so they would feel this pleasure and they would continue moving. If they moved in an undesired direction, then they, you know, you would stop stimulating this part of the brain and they would look around and search for it and try to find it again. And through this, you could actually get them to move in pre-desired. Directions, you could steer them like a remote control. And there are a couple of quotes from some of the documents that I found about why are they, why are they doing this? Why do you want to be able to steer animals or potentially people? And within these, these documents, it says, the CIA planned to attach payloads of interest

• 14:10Speaker 01

  to these guidance systems to use in direct executive action type operations. And the payloads of interest was biological and chemical weapons. The guidance system was the animals and direct executive action is an euphemism for assassination. So we want to create these animal assassination drones that can be remotely controlled, carrying these biological materials.

• 14:34Speaker 01

  And within one of these documents, the CIA is speculating, what's the best animals we could use for this? And apparently they say it's yaks and bears because they, and I'm quoting, are capable of carrying heavy payloads over great distances under adverse climactic conditions. So we need to strap them with a lot of biological materials and we can control these yaks to potentially go kill someone.

• 14:54Chris Williamson?

  Holy shit, they, they created like the, the B22 flying fortress of the animal world, then put a remote control on them and got gangrene or bubonic plague and attached that to them as well.

• 15:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's the idea. Now, I, I have no reason to think that this ever went into the field, but at least this is what they were experimenting with.

• 15:14Chris Williamson?

  Okay. Where does the name MKUltra come from? What's that?

• 15:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, the CIA for different departments, it has what's called a digraph, like MK and H, that just indicates the department that it's under. So at that time, in MK indicated that it fell under the technical services staff, which was, you know, it, it was involved in technical services. So doing experiments and creating weapons and gadgets and that kind of thing. And so Ultra, as far as I can tell, is kind of an homage to the cryptographic intelligence units during World War II that were decrypting the German Enigma machine. That was called the Ultra Project. So I think it was a combination of that, MKUltra.

• 15:49Chris Williamson?

  Okay. Where does the interest in LSD come from? Like that, that seems to be a specific direction that they're focused on.

• 15:58Speaker 01

  Definitely. And it might be important to mention that there were. There were drug experiments and truth drug experiments long before MKUltra. You know, I mentioned that in my first book in the OSS, I have a whole chapter on truth drug experiments. But even you go back thousands of years and people talk about how, you know, wine and alcohol can lower your inhibitions and make you spill your secrets. So the search for a truth drug or something like it isn't new. What's new with LSD is that, well, it's a new drug and it's extremely potent. It's only first discovered in 1938 in Switzerland by Albert Hofmann, a chemist at the Sandoz Corporation. And, but he shelves it for five years. He doesn't even realize that it has much potential. And so in 1943, he kind of resynthesizes LSD and accidentally some contacts his skin

• 16:43Speaker 01

  and he starts having these weird feelings, hallucinations, the room starts spinning. So he leaves work, he rides his bicycle home, he collapses on the couch and he realizes there's something to this, especially because it was such a minute dose. So it's such, so potent that this especially interested people like Gottlieb within the CIA because it means that it would be extremely effective in covert operations. It would be very easy to sneak this into someone's drink or whatever, because such a minute dose could have such a profound effect.

• 17:11Chris Williamson?

  Hmm. So how do they first find out about LSD? How does that first get over from Hofmann to the US to the understanding of the CIA?

• 17:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's, it's not as if the CIA is the first American entity to learn about this. Sandoz Corporation had brought LSD over in the late 40s, 48, 49, to try to trial it and to try to figure out if they could use it as a drug to treat something because they want to make money off of it. So people knew about LSD at the time, not unless you're like a psychopharmacologist or something, but it's not as if it's an entire secret. And then there's another important event that happens right around this time period that gets the CIA interested in hallucinogens in general and just LSD happens to be one of the most potent of those. And that's in France, there's this, this drugging through bread. There's this ergot fungus that grows on a bread at a particular bakery and several

• 18:06Speaker 01

  people, you know, eat this bread. And I talk about this in the book, but the town kind of goes crazy. Multiple people die, you know, because they start ripping off their clothes and, you know, the mayor's like ripping off his clothes and journalists.

• 18:20Speaker 01

  They start journalists go to the town to try to figure out what's happening. And so, yeah, and so, you know, this is an indication to the CIA. If an ergot fungus in a bakery can cause this much havoc, what would be the case if say, the Soviet Union got a hold of a really potent hallucinogen like LSD and put it into the water supply of an American city? Well, that that's not good news. So we got to figure out how we can prevent that from happening. Or we have to figure out what are the effects? What? How is somebody going to react if they take this drug without wittingly know they have, knowing they have? So we can counteract it in case the Soviets do that to us. So that's the kind of motivation. I should mention, though, that the CIA contracted someone to answer this question, like, how

• 19:04Speaker 01

  how potent would CIA be if it were released into a city's water supply? And he basically came to the conclusion, I think it was that there was too much chlorine in the water and it would counteract LSD and it would dissolve it or something and it would have no effect. So it wouldn't, as far as I know, what he said, it wouldn't really have an effect. But they decided, we're going to test this anyway and see, see what happens.

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• 20:37Chris Williamson?

  Did they take it themselves? Wasn't there a thing about the guys running the program thinking, "Hey, if we're gonna be researching this thing, we might as well have a crack at it ourselves."

• 20:45Speaker 01

  Definitely. They were the first people to take it within the CIA. Not only are they dosing themselves, Gottlieb doses himself multiple times and his colleagues too, so they can understand what the reaction to it is, so that they can better understand how we might be able to use this in a covert operation. So we need to know how someone might react, so that we can kind of plan for that. But also, they're doing it as basically pranks around the office. You know, they're putting it in the office coffee pot to see, "Jim, how is he gonna react when we dose him with LSD?" Turns out, not good. You know, one guy is dosed with this LSD in the office coffee pot at the CIA, and he ends up running outside over to a bridge and almost gets hit by traffic, and they have to wrangle him back. So that kind of thing is going on.

• 21:27Speaker 01

  In fact, the CIA Office of Security has to issue a warning, basically, saying if anyone spikes the holiday punch bowl, there are gonna be severe repercussions, because this was like such a-

• 21:39Chris Williamson?

  No more LSD in the coffee pot.

• 21:42Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 21:42Chris Williamson?

  No more LSD. This is an internal memo going to all staff. Stop putting LSD in the coffee pot.

• 21:47Speaker 01

  Exactly. And then the most famous incident of this happening, where they're kind of dosing themselves, is at a retreat called Deep Creek, where several MKUltra scientists, like Sidney Gottlieb, Robert Lashbrook, they meet with several scientists from Fort Didric, which was the biological warfare installation for the US in Maryland. These scientists would occasionally meet at this retreat in order to exchange their research results and talk about the experiments that they're performing. And it was at one of these retreats that Gottlieb and Robert Lashbrook dosed the liquor with LSD, and they start passing out shots to everyone. And it turns out, one of the people who was there is this guy named Frank Olson. He was within the Special Operations Division at Fort Didric, and he really had kind of a psychotic break after this.

• 22:29Speaker 01

  And if anyone has heard really about the MKUltra program, you might have heard of Frank Olson. He jumps out the hotel window in New York after Gottlieb and Lashbrook take him there. And he dies on the Seventh Avenue sidewalk. And so it had, you know, lethal repercussions. Just what Gottlieb, I think, saw as kind of a prank really had this lethal repercussion.

• 22:50Chris Williamson?

  This isn't even part of an experiment for an ultra.

• 22:54Speaker 01

  Not even, yeah.

• 22:54Chris Williamson?

  This is just a prank.

• 22:55Speaker 01

  Exactly, exactly. It's, it's, it's guys, in my sense, it's these guys trying to have some fun, trying to lighten up the mood. They're pulling these pranks. They've been dosing themselves and other people and they don't really grasp how immoral and crazy this is until this Frank Olson incident. And it really makes them think, whoa, like, hang on, what, what, what just happened? What did we do? So there, there are some repercussions for that. Gottlieb gets an informal reprimand from Allen Dulles, the head of the CIA, but that's it. And in fact, after the Frank Olson incident, it's not as if MKUltra shuts down. You just killed this guy. Instead, it expands even further into what's known as Operation Midnight Climax. This new sub-project where Gottlieb is getting this narcotics officer, George White, to dose people unwittingly with LSD.

• 23:39Speaker 01

  And eventually he hires prostitutes to dose their unwitting clients with LSD, while White is sitting behind a one-way mirror, sitting on a portable toilet, drinking liquor that he bought with CIA funds.

• 23:52Chris Williamson?

  You need to dig into this. Tell me more about this, this plan that they've got going on.

• 23:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, George White, this narcotics officer, he, he terms this his own sub-project, Operation Midnight Climax. The idea is that we're going to dose these unwitting people with drugs, LSD being the main one, inject it through the, the cork on a wine bottle and then pour drinks. And we're going to see how people react when they unwittingly take this, because we want to be prepared for if someone does that to us. And is it possible to make them behave in certain ways? Can we make them seem insane? That could be useful if we want to, say, dose a foreign political leader with some LSD before a big political rally. And maybe they'll look like they lose their mind and the population is going to start thinking, maybe we shouldn't trust this guy. So they want to understand how someone reacts to unwittingly ingesting LSD. That's the purpose of Operation Midnight Climax.

• 24:41Speaker 01

  George White, like I mentioned, he's this narcotics officer. So by day, he's locking up junkies for illegal possession. And by night, he's doling out drugs to these people to see how they react to them. So it's a sad irony. He, he himself is a, is a character, to say the least. He was an addict in basically every sense of the word. He's alcoholic. He takes every drug that Gottlieb gives to him before he gives to anyone else. He just takes for himself just to see what happens. Um, but he's addicted to sex, too. There are stories that I recount in the book about how he doses his own friends with LSD unwittingly to try to get them to engage in orgies with him. Um, he does this to he does this to one woman while she's there. She has her one-year-old daughter with her. He doses her with LSD.

• 25:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's terrible. And she ends up having a kind of psychotic break, uh, reactive psychosis, very similar to what seems to have happened to Frank Olson. And her husband is away on a business trip. But when he comes back, she's cowering in the corner of her parents' room. And she, she says that somebody's out to get her. She's very paranoid. She doesn't want to take phone calls because she thinks the police are going to come to arrest her. She eventually is committed to like a, a mental asylum for years, for decades, and dies in this mental asylum. Um, so some awful repercussions of

• 25:57Chris Williamson?

  I feel really callous about laughing at the fucking sex party. I didn't realize it went as deep as this.

• 26:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, it's, it's, it's hard to know how to react to some of this stuff. I, I, I've experienced that too, where on the surface, it is like, it is humorous in a way because of how absurd it actually is. Like, it's hard not to take it in a little bit of jest because it's hard to believe that someone would actually do this. But yeah, when you drill down into the details, it is absolutely tragic. That's why the subtitle of this book is The Tragedy of MKUltra.

• 26:27Chris Williamson?

  Where is Gottlieb getting the LSD from? Are they synthesizing it in the CIA somewhere?

• 26:33Speaker 01

  No, um, the CIA has a deal with Sandoz to supply them with a certain amount of LSD. And in addition to that, they get the Eli Lilly company, which is an American company, to also synthesize LSD to provide for them, just because it's an American company. So that if something happens to this foreign company, we'll have a domestic supplier. So they're getting it from companies who are And independently synthesizing it for them.

• 26:53Chris Williamson?

  Well, wasn't the Nazi scientists, I know that they were brought over for other stuff, right, but were any of the Nazis involved in the MKUltra mind control stuff?

• 27:05Speaker 01

  Not, not really. Some people like to make this connection because it seems like the sort of thing that should be connected. I mean, right, during the, in the concentration camps in Nazi Germany, weren't they experimenting with drugs and trying to find out some similar stuff as MKUltra? That is the case, but that it's kind of missing the fact that correlation isn't causation. You know, there were a lot of countries that were experimenting with truth drugs. The US was during World War II, independently of the Nazis, you know, in the OSS, they were doing truth drug experiments, and that's been going on for a long time, these kinds of experiments. So just because these two different entities were doing similar experiments, one didn't cause the other, as far as I can see. I've never seen a direct connection between the Operation Paperclip bringing these Nazi scientists over after

• 27:47Speaker 01

  World War II and MKUltra. People make that connection, but I don't see a connection there. I think it's more of confusing correlation and causation.

• 27:55Chris Williamson?

  So George White, pretty intense guy, probably quite fun at the party, but very unscrupulous, and seems to be kind of living privately and publicly the same thing, apart from there's this veneer of being drug officer thing. But he, he has this sort of, um, this paradox of professional life with personal and then second professional life kind of being the same sort of a thing. What about Sidney Gottlieb? Because it feels like he has a degree of double life going on as well, the way that he behaves personally, the way that he shows up in his, in his personal life and his philosophies there, and then the things that he's doing by day.

• 28:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, it does. It's, it is hard to reconcile in a way, especially with Gottlieb, not so much George White, because I do feel like that was his true character. Like, out of everyone in the book, I feel like he's the most unethical. It doesn't seem like he has any remorse. In later life, when Gottlieb is doing these depositions that I found, he seems very remorseful. Now, he might just be doing that, you know, for the court or whatever. But, I mean, there are people who were volunteering with him in later life. And they said that he, they always felt like he was trying to atone for some past sins. And, you know, after MKUltra is over during these depositions, he does say he regretted a lot of what he did. And he, he does seem to have some kind of remorse. It didn't really come to much MKUltra. It's not like we found a drug or a psychiatric technique that allowed us to control a person like a marionette. But, so, I think Sidney Gottlieb was doing this

• 29:24Speaker 01

  because he actually believed in like the ins justify the means. Like, this is for national security and we have to do this. I think George White was doing this because, you know, he was having fun. Uh, in fact, there's one story in the book. Speaking of George White and parties, again, this is one of the more sad stories. There was a man named Wayne Ritchie. And he lived in San Francisco. He was a US marshal. He had worked as a guard at Alcatraz for a while. And one night, he goes to a Christmas party at a federal building, the post office. And he, you know, takes some drinks there. He's hanging out with his colleagues. And all of a sudden, his, the walls start spinning. He starts kind of hallucinating, seeing colors. He doesn't know what's going on. Uh, he kind of has this break as well. He runs home, not knowing what to do.

• 30:09Speaker 01

  His girlfriend is there and she's kind of upset because she wants to move to New York. So they kind of get into this spat. He eventually goes back to the post office building where his locker is. He, and he decides, you know what, to set everything straight, to make my life better, I'm gonna get my service revolvers, go down to a bar downtown and steal all the money. And then I'm gonna give it to my girlfriend. She can move to New York. And then she'll love me because I did this for her. So that's exactly what he does. He takes these guns. He goes to a bar. He barges in and says, give me all the money and the till. And then someone who's just drinking a beer hits him over the head with one of the, with one of the beers. And he's knocked out cold. The police come, they arrest him, obviously. He goes to jail. And at night, he kind of sobers up from whatever the fog that he was undergoing.

• 30:51Speaker 01

  And he realizes that, that wasn't me. Like, I, I felt so weird what was going on. He, in fact, he asked the police officer, please give me a gun and one bullet so I can save the state some money. And he lived with this, he lived with this for the, you know, for the rest of his life. For decades after this, he didn't know kind of what happened to him that night. He lost his job. He lost his friends. He obviously lost that girlfriend as well. And so it was about 30 years later when MKUltra is made public. He's reading a newspaper and he sees a story that mentions George White and LSD. And it kinds of dawns on him, oh, my gosh, I knew George White in San Francisco. And it turns out George White's diary has been donated. Now it's at Stanford University.

• 31:32Speaker 01

  In George White's diary, which I show in this book, you can flip to the exact day that Wayne Ritchie went insane at that party. And what does George White's diary say? Christmas party, federal building. That's where he was. And so Wayne Ritchie sued the CIA, but it was dismissed for, um, the judge basically said you couldn't prove that this actually happened to you. But yeah, another victim of George White.

• 31:55Chris Williamson?

  Dude, okay. So getting into the meat and potatoes of the experiments. What does that look like? They've now got their chemist. They've been fucking about with it internally and partly externally. They're doing this thing in the brothels. But, you know, when we think about, when I think about MKUltra, I think about the, the eyelid thing being kept open, looking like this. And, and LSD and hypnosis and repeating stuff and watching the same TV thing over and over in a room and sleep deprivation.

• 32:29Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 32:30Chris Williamson?

  What, what do this sort of hardcore experiments look like? And where are they? Who does it?

• 32:34Speaker 01

  That's a, that's a good point because not everything that's part of MKUltra, these 149 sub projects is done by the CIA. There are very few sub projects that the CIA itself does. It's funding George White to do some of these experiments, but that's most of what the CIA itself is actively doing. Really how MKUltra is set up, it's, it's based through a funding mechanism. So Sidney Gottlieb would identify researchers at universities, prisons, hospitals, who were already doing experiments that he was interested. Many of them were already doing LSD experiments without, you know, knowing what the CIA is up to. Many of them were doing experiments in amnesia to see if amnesia is possible.

• 33:15Speaker 01

  And so Sidney Gottlieb decides we're going to start funding these people to continue doing what they're doing. So again, it's not as if the CIA is itself committing all of these acts. Instead it's aiding and abetting the people who are already doing these experiments. One of these people. Well, there are a lot of them to talk about, I guess, but some of these are at prisons. So Harris Isbell, Carl Pfeiffer, they're in Lexington and Atlanta. And at these prisons, they're dosing the prisoners with different drugs that Sidney Gottlieb is sending them. And I should mention also, these people who are being funded by MKUltra, many of them don't know they're being funded by MKUltra. They're given grants through like cutout organizations to say, hey, we're the Society for the Investigation of Human Ecology. The CIA just made this up. And they say, yeah, we're going to fund you whatever.

• 33:59Speaker 01

  And so they're like, great, I'll take free money, why not?

• 34:02Chris Williamson?

  Be skeptical of free money, is that the lesson?

• 34:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, there's no such thing as a free lunch. Yeah, so they're getting this money through these grants, that's great. So a lot of them didn't even know the CIA is behind these grants. So they would use these cutout organizations. Some of them did, though. And so a few of these people at these prisons, Harris Isbell, Carl Pfeiffer, they're taking drugs that Gottlieb is giving to them, not just LSD, but all kinds of stuff, peyote eventually, and just whatever. And they're giving it to these prisoners to see how they react. And in one experiment, Isbell talks about dosing a prisoner with quadruple doses of LSD for days on end to try to build up their tolerance, to see how they would react. And he says, well, we really built up their tolerance. And here's one of the crazy things, too.

• 34:45Speaker 01

  At Harris Isbell's experiments in Lexington, Kentucky, it's at a prison, but the prison is also like a rehabilitation facility. And so the idea is that we're trying to get these people off of drugs. And as payment for volunteering to join these experiments, what would Isbell give them? Well, he would give them an option. They could either take like a good parole letter for their parole board, you know, or they could go to the drug bank window, stick out their arm, and get a needle full of heroin injected right into it. So that's their payment for being involved.

• 35:16Chris Williamson?

  In the rehab place?

• 35:17Speaker 01

  In the rehab place, yes.

• 35:18Chris Williamson?

  Phenomenal.

• 35:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, so those are, those are some of the drug experiments. But you mentioned like sensory deprivation.

• 35:24Chris Williamson?

  Hang on, what about, because you, you mentioned jails there. Doctors, universities, these were also being co-opted as well.

• 35:31Speaker 01

  Yes, yes, yeah. And I, I should mention also that it's not as if every LSD experiment at a university or somewhere, or psychiatric experiment that sounds like an MKUltra thing is part of MKUltra. Again, the, these scientists in the CIA are funding the things that are already going on for the most part. So just because something sounds like an MKUltra experiment, oh yeah, I know this, you know, this guy at this university, he was dosing his students with LSD. That could have been an MKUltra experiment, a sub-project, but in most likely it wasn't because there are more people who are doing this on their own than who were doing it as part of MKUltra. But yes, at universities, this was happening. In fact, one of the people who was doing this at a university was Harris Isbell. He would do this with his students.

• 36:13Speaker 01

  Isbell, or I'm sorry, I mentioned him earlier, was Harold Abramson. He was a, he was a doctor who was dosing his students, you know, they would join these experiments. But Abramson is the person who Sidney Gottlieb and Robert Lashbrook sent Frank Olson to after Frank Olson had that kind of psychotic break. So he already kind of knew that the CIA was interested in LSD and he eventually got paid basically to dose some of these students and to see how they reacted. So it was going on at a lot of places.

• 36:42Chris Williamson?

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• 37:27Chris Williamson?

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• 37:33Chris Williamson?

  How much truth is there in the famous people involved in MKUltra? The cult leaders?

• 37:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:40Chris Williamson?

  The bombers of many stripes. This, you have to have looked into this.

• 37:47Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 37:47Chris Williamson?

  How much truth is in that?

• 37:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, and people, for some reason, are kind of disappointed when I say I don't think there's much truth to it.

• 37:54Chris Williamson?

  Ah, John, come on.

• 37:56Speaker 01

  Like, the Unabomber, this is a big one. It's not as if he wasn't in an experiment, you know, at a university. He was in the experiment of this guy named Henry Murray, who had been involved in the OSS, who was doing some psychological stuff for the OSS. Some, he was creating psychological portraits of different, like, German leaders. So Henry Murray did have ties to the intelligence community, but there's no reason to think that he was actually funded by the CIA through MKUltra. At least, I haven't found anything that indicates that. Again, that's not to say that Ted Kaczynski wasn't involved in these experiments, and that that didn't affect him in some way, but I just haven't seen any tie to MKUltra. And, you know, and a point to make, too, is there are a lot of people who were involved in these experiments, and none of them became the Unabomber but him.

• 38:38Speaker 01

  And so I think there's probably a lot other stuff going on than the fact that he happened to be, you know, one of the people who was involved in that experiment. But another popular one to link to MKUltra, especially recently, is Charles Manson. If anyone's read Chaos by Tom O'Neill, it's a really good book. And he tries to make this link between Jolly West, who was another, you know, researcher, a psychiatrist who is doing MKUltra experiments on some people. And he was in LA at the time that Manson was there. So Tom O'Neill tries to make this connection, but I, he himself admits in the book, and in the Netflix documentary based on it, Chaos, and in several interviews, that he's never really found the connection.

• 39:20Speaker 01

  You know, he can kind of put them in the same place, but sure, yeah, a lot of people could be put in the same place. The ironic thing to me is, it's not that Jolly West was doing some kind of experiments on Manson, or that Manson was in these experiments and learned how to control people through that. It's the opposite. It's that Jolly West could have learned a lot from Charles Manson, because Manson actually knew how to manipulate people. It's through the classic cult techniques. It's not through, you know, some... Esoteric hypnosis that the CIA is interested in. They're called techniques that have been used for hundreds of years before MKUltra that have been successfully manipulated people. MKUltra could have learned from him.

• 39:56Chris Williamson?

  I was gonna say, they should have done it. They should have got Mark Manson, they should have got Charles Manson in to have. Mark Manson would have just taught them how to not give a fuck.

• 40:05Chris Williamson?

  I had, do you know Danny Trejo? Do you know him?

• 40:07Speaker 01

  The actor?

• 40:08Chris Williamson?

  Yes.

• 40:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:09Chris Williamson?

  Yes, yeah, he was on the show a couple of years ago. He was in jail with Charles Manson.

• 40:14Speaker 01

  Really? Wow.

• 40:16Chris Williamson?

  Charlie, Little Charlie, they called him. And he had a, he had a rope for a belt. He was a small guy and he was getting bullied apparently around the prison yard. So Danny and his guys, you know, big scary fucking dudes. They took him under their wing and they heard that this guy could put you into this weird trance, which I'm gonna guess would have been some form of hypnotism. And he could get you loaded on heroin without the drug. That he was able to induce heroin without the drug. And Danny, you know, not a scientist, shock horror, Danny Trejo's not a scientist. But he did this wonderful control within an experiment. The three guys that were in Danny's cell.

• 41:02Chris Williamson?

  Mark, fuck off, Mark Manson, Charles Manson.

• 41:06Speaker 01

  Jesus Christ.

• 41:08Chris Williamson?

  Charles Manson.

• 41:11Chris Williamson?

  Did the hypnotism thing and they felt it, come on, all the rest of it. Apparently, I've never taken heroin. Apparently, when you take heroin, sometimes you throw up or a lot of the time maybe you throw up. And Danny and his cellmate both threw up. But the third guy didn't. And the third guy had never taken heroin before. So the expectation effect of Danny and Danny's cellmate who had meant that when they were under, and the other guy was, I'm feeling it. I'm feeling the something, I'm feeling the whatever. But there's this question here, which is you didn't know what to expect. So you didn't behave in the manner that you expected to. I just thought that was such a cool little vignette.

• 41:54Speaker 01

  That is, and you know, that actually ties in with an MKUltra sub project. Because actually, one of the more successful ones, it wasn't giving people drugs and using hypnotism. It was making them think that they had done that. And so. This was but done by a psychologist, Martin Orne. And he said, if you really want to interrogate someone and you want them to tell the truth, you can, instead of giving them a truth drug, which doesn't actually work, maybe it'll lower their inhibitions, but you can't guarantee what they say will be the truth. What you should do is make them think that they've taken a truth drug, especially if they don't know if truth drugs are real or not. Make them think they've taken it. And once they think they've taken it and that it's effective, you you just give them a placebo, like a sugar pill and say, oh, this is going to make you talk now. And if they actually think that truth drugs could be possible, then internally, they're

• 42:39Speaker 01

  gonna kind of think to themselves, well, I've taken this truth drug, then I'm kind of a helpless victim here. I don't have any choice but to talk because it's going to make me anyway. I guess I should. It's it's the same thing with hypnotism. He said, you know, you can try to hypnotize someone and maybe it's not going to work on them, but you can still make them think that they've been hypnotized even if they aren't feeling it. So for example, you pretend to hypnotize them and even if they don't go under, you can start suggesting things to them like your hands are going to be getting really warm or something. And it turns out under the desk, you secretly put a heater down there and you've turned the heater on and their hands actually are getting warmer. And so they think, well, I didn't think I was hypnotized, but now maybe there's something to this. And so if they think they've been hypnotized, they might be more likely to talk because who could control it? I mean, it's not my fault.

• 43:22Speaker 01

  He hypnotized me, so I guess I better say whatever I'm going to say. So it's a psychological technique inducing the hypnotic situation instead of hypnosis itself.

• 43:30Chris Williamson?

  Wow, the the hypnosis placebo effect. Okay, you we mentioned about the the psychic driving thing, this reputation over and over. What was that?

• 43:41Speaker 01

  Yes, psychic driving. This was by a psychiatrist named Ewan Cameron in Montreal. He was working at the Allen Memorial Institute. He had dreams of becoming the next Sigmund Freud. He was going to win a Nobel Prize in Medicine, at least he thought he was. He was going to cure all mental illness. He just didn't know how. Like he he knew he was destined for greatness, but he didn't know how. He was a behaviorist, and so he thought all behavior stems from patterns that you've learned from your environment. So, everything is nurture, nothing is nature. And so, in his conception, what mental illness is, is a person who has learned bad behaviors from their environment. And if you want to correct mental illness, what you should do is reduce them back to a blank slate where they forget all their behaviors, and then put them in

• 44:24Speaker 01

  a better environment where they learn better behaviors. That's his conception at least. The question is then, how do you reduce someone to a blank slate and make them forget these bad patterns of behavior that he thinks leads to mental illness? In his conception, you have to induce enough stress in them. If you induce enough stress, then that will reduce them to the blank slate, and like God, we can build them back up in our image. So, how do we induce enough stress? Well, he tried multiple ways, you know, electric shocks, sensory deprivation, and then psychic driving, as you mentioned. This was replaying auditory messages in their ears thousands and thousands of times a day, just on endless repeat. The reason why he came to this is because he was, he was recording a session that he was having with a young woman, just like a therapy session. And she said something

• 45:09Speaker 01

  that he wanted her to listen to again. She said something about how, "My mom used to tell me," I don't remember exactly what it was, but it was something negative. And so he said, "Here, I want you to listen to that again and kind of react to it." So, he plays it back for her, and she has a very negative reaction to hearing her saying her mom's negative words. And so, he starts doing it again and again and again. She has an increasingly heightened negative reaction each time, and he thinks to himself, "This is how I induce stress." So, he started having people record these negative messages. In some instances, he would have their families come to the Allen Memorial Institute and record negative messages that he could then play to the patients. And then he would make them listen to them, these messages, over and over. Sometimes, he would put them in chemical comas, and then beneath their pillow, he would put a speaker where it would just

• 45:50Speaker 01

  play these messages. So, maybe in their dreams, like it's manipulating them into going down to become a blank slate again. But that's psychic driving. That's what he was trying to do.

• 46:00Chris Williamson?

  Who were the patients?

• 46:02Speaker 01

  These were patients who were legitimate psychiatric patients. Many of them had schizophrenia or depression who had committed themselves under his care because he was one of the most renowned psychiatrists in the world, really. At one point, he was the head of the American Psychiatric Association, the Canadian Psychiatric Association, and the World Psychiatric Association. So if you're going to commit yourself to anyone, well, this guy certainly, shouldn't he know, you know, what to do? So they thought they were getting tried and true treatments that would help them. Instead, he was using them as guinea pigs in his experiments that eventually would be funded by MKUltra. And it's especially ironic because Ewan Cameron was one of the psychiatrists who evaluated the Nazi-German prisoners at the end of World War II to determine whether they're fit to stand trial. These

• 46:45Speaker 01

  are the same Nuremberg trials that produced the Nuremberg codes about ethical experiments, you know, about like the first point of which is you need consent of the subject, you know? So he's he's involved in those Nuremberg trials and yet he's completely going against the Nuremberg code here. So a lot of ironies sadly in this book.

• 47:02Chris Williamson?

  Was it effective at all, the psychic driving thing? Did they, was there anything useful that came out of that?

• 47:08Speaker 01

  It was, I mean, it was effective at breaking people down. I don't know about building them back up. In fact, in his notes, he has several notes of, for instance, there's one nursing student, and he says, "This 18-year-old nursing student was reduced to basically a vegetable who would pee her own bed and couldn't go to the bathroom on her own." It's like, he really could break these people down. There was one woman, she was an identical twin. So this is kind of a good case study. The identical twin was committed to the Allen Memorial, the other wasn't. She has this psychic driving done to her, electroshock treatment as well. And afterwards, she can't go to the bathroom on her own, she can't dress herself, put on her makeup, do anything. She moves in with her identical twin, but the, you know, she's so psychologically damaged from this that it causes her severe depression because she looks at her twin in what could have been, and she's not that. So she ends

• 47:53Speaker 01

  up scavenging food out of like dumpsters and living on her own for a while. It's a really sad story. But yeah, so, I mean, you definitely could affect the psychology of someone. You really could kind of break them down and even induce amnesia if you can give them enough electric voltage during these therapies. But it's not like you could build them back up on your image and make them all of a sudden cure of mental illness like he was hoping for.

• 48:14Chris Williamson?

  Did they try and do any twin stuff? Remote messaging between twins, any of that?

• 48:21Speaker 01

  Not as part of MKUltra. There were some like remote viewing stuff that the CIA was interested in, but that wasn't part of MKUltra. Annie Jacobson has a book on this called Phenomena, that's, that's good. But as far as I can tell, there wasn't any MKUltra things involved with that. And I don't remember any specific twin studies that MKUltra was involved in either.

• 48:41Chris Williamson?

  All right. What about de-patterning? Was that similar to the psychic driving thing?

• 48:46Speaker 01

  A kind of de-patterning was the electric shocks. So you would get stimulated with these electric shocks multiple times. And yeah, a lot of people had severe damage after this. One of the patients was named Janine Huard, and she was pregnant at the time that she was getting all this stuff done to her. Eventually, she was allowed out, she had her baby, but her baby was kind of unhealthy. There was some kind of digestion problem the baby had. So Janine Huard went into this severe depression. She was worried and anxious. She gets recommitted to the Allen Memorial Institute because of this. And then, you know, she talks about in her depositions, which I quote, all, everything she experienced is, there's a lot of really sad stories with these patients. But yeah, they went through a lot. And that, that was just one sub-project at the Allen Memorial under Cameron. All that, that stuff, that was one sub-project.

• 49:31Chris Williamson?

  What, in your opinion, was the, were the wildest experiments? What were the ones that sort of really, I mean, those seem to push the limit, turning somebody functional into a vegetable and then making them live with their twin. That's pretty rough. But yeah, what were the worst ones?

• 49:48Speaker 01

  Um, the most unethical, I mean, I already mentioned it, but it's probably George White and dosing these people unwittingly. I will say, for, for some of the prison experiments, these prisoners would sign consent forms in a way. So they would say, we're going to be testing hallucinogenic drugs, although it's a question about informed consent. But, you know, I mentioned you and Cameron, I think his are probably the most destructive of the MKUltra experiments. And one example of that is a woman named Mary Morrow, who, it's ironic because she had been a neurologist at the Allen Memorial Institute under Ewan Cameron. So she had been a resident in training, but she had severe anorexia and depression and she failed her neurological exams to become a doctor.

• 50:32Speaker 01

  So she went into this deep depression and she eventually got committed to a hospital. While she's there, Ewan Cameron goes to consult with her and he asks her, "Do you want to come back to the Allen, not as a resident, but as a patient?" She reluctantly does and then she's on the other side of it now. So she, she was doing this kinds of stuff to people and now she's on the other side of it experiencing it. The same thing happens to her where she basically gets to a point where she can't put on her clothes by herself and she has phone calls with her, her mother after each one of these de-patterning sessions, this electric shock. And her mother is very concerned because she's not making any sense. So her mother tells her sister, "You need to go over there and see what's happening." So her sister barges in and says, "If you don't let me see my sister right now, I'm calling the police."

• 51:14Speaker 01

  So they eventually let her into the room and in the corner is sitting Mary Morrow with these hollow eyes. She says later that she felt like she was sunk in a deep hole and couldn't get out, but she basically couldn't do anything for herself. So her family busted her out of there and she's one of the success, not a success story, but one of the, at least she got out. You know, she talks about in her depositions, after going through all this, there were people who had been there for years. I was there for a few months and I experienced this stuff, but years people were doing this. So I think, yeah, Ewan Cameron's experiments are among the most unethical. I should also mention, somewhat in connection with that is a guy named Baldwin, Maitland Baldwin. He was also funded by the CIA to do some experiments and he was around that area too, in Montreal.

• 51:57Speaker 01

  He had been a student of Donald Hebb, who had been an associate of Ewan Cameron. But Maitland Baldwin, one of the experiments he at least proposed, not that he actually carried out, was to confine someone to a wooden box, like in sensory deprivation, so they couldn't move, you know, they'd be confined. And he called this a terminal type experiment, to see how long they could stay in there and, you know, before they died. There were several people who actually spoke out against this and said, there's no way we're doing that. So he didn't. But he did end up doing experiments on monkeys where he would decapitate them and try to put different heads on different monkeys. He would beam microwaves into their brains. So he was doing a lot of stuff like that, too.

• 52:36Chris Williamson?

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• 53:20Chris Williamson?

  a $1 per month trial period, or by heading to Shopify.com/ModernWisdom, all lowercase. That's Shopify.com/ModernWisdom to upgrade your selling today. Wasn't there something to do with the toilets being wired with microphones so that people's post-trip confessions were captured? Didn't that happen somewhere?

• 53:39Speaker 01

  I don't recall that. I don't remember that. Maybe it did. I didn't come across that. I don't know.

• 53:44Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, it's an interesting one, thinking about, I guess you can do, you can have this effect on people, but unless they're under your care for the entire time, they're going to go away. And then it's difficult, you've got to follow this person to see how they behave. Now with George White, he's got this group of, I guess, for the period of time that they're with prostitutes, he can sit on his toilet and drink his liquor and look through the one-way mirror. So you can actually do some observation. But the problem is... Unless you're able to hold somebody in a location, which is why being in a psychiatric facility is probably so useful, that you can just have them under observation to see what happens to them at all times. If you do this to someone, they're just out in the world, causing mischief. You have no idea what they're actually doing.

• 54:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. And that's, that's one of the, the concerns that Gottlieb eventually has about this. In his depositions, he talks about, he's asked, what did you learn from MKUltra? Like, what came out of this? And for the most part, he says, he tries to put a positive spin on the negative results. And he says, well, we learned a lot of things you couldn't do. Like, you couldn't control someone like a marionette. But he does say, you could make someone appear crazy. And this did have some operational value in the sense that, like I mentioned, you might be able to, one, one idea was to put LSD into a cigar and give it to Fidel Castro. And before he made some kind of speech, he would smoke the cigar and he would appear crazy. And his people would start to lose faith in him. But Sidney Gottlieb was even reluctant to take it to that kind of an operation because

• 55:09Speaker 01

  he said, just as you were mentioning, it's not like you couldn't control what Castro is going to say, or whoever's going to say. Once they're out of your purview, once they've taken this, you don't know what they're going to do. He might start saying, we need to start nuking the United States or something. So, you know, he, he was kind of against that.

• 55:24Chris Williamson?

  Hmm. Okay. So were there actually any operations used outside of experiments? Did MKUltra produce anything operationally useful?

• 55:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, it did. In a couple instances, there, there were interrogations done with some of these methods. And in some instances, it seems like the interrogations were successful and some maybe not. But there, there are reports, you know, that I talk about in the book, about some of these interrogations and what was done. But also, the one operation that really comes out of this is ironically exactly what I was just talking about that actually went forward, except it wasn't Fidel Castro, it was the president of the Philippines. He was running for reelection. He seemed to be maybe sympathetic to the communists. So how can we get him to lose his election? It turns out that the CIA sent some LSD to Manila. They had someone at least try to slip some, some of it into his water before a political rally to make him appear insane. There were several other, other.

• 56:20Speaker 01

  Operations that went into the field, although most of them were unsuccessful, Sidney Gottlieb was involved in multiple assassination attempts. One of those was on Patrice Lumumba, who was the prime minister of the Congo. Eisenhower wanted Lumumba eliminated. So word went from Eisenhower to Allen Dulles, the head of the CIA, down to Richard Bissell, who was the head of the department Gottlieb was in, down to Sidney Gottlieb. And they basically said, how can we covertly assassinate Patrice Lumumba without anyone realizing that it was us? Because it's easy to kill someone. You know, you just drop a bomb on them and they're dead. But it's hard to kill someone without implicating yourself. And that's what the CIA was trying to do. So what Gottlieb did was procure some anthrax from Fort Dietrich, that biological warfare installation.

• 57:05Speaker 01

  He personally took it to the Congo and he gave it to a CIA agent, a station chief who was there and said, basically, you know, we want you to slip this to Lumumba some way. The idea was that we would put it in some toothpaste and then he would brush his teeth with it. You know, the toothpaste would make its way to his bathroom. Lumumba would brush his teeth. He would be infected with anthrax, which occurs naturally. And so he would die from it. That ended up not happening, not least because Lumumba's own friends said that he often didn't brush his teeth because he feared no breath and he did bad breath. So.

• 57:37Chris Williamson?

  Wow, okay. So were they, at no point did they get close to creating a programmed killer of some kind?

• 57:44Speaker 01

  No, no. The closest I think is that the animal experimentation that I mentioned before, where they actually got animals to walk on predetermined paths. They could steer them. And they were talking about, you know, putting biological or chemical materials on them. And in these documents, they do say this might have application in human terms, but no actual, you know, psychotic killer that could be controlled like a puppet was actually created. In fact, the irony I mentioned earlier about how Charles Manson could have taught the CIA something instead of the opposite is that you actually, I mean, in a way, mind control is possible, not through the MKUltra methods of drugs and, you know, esoteric hypnotism or whatever they're doing, but really through the classic methods of cult manipulation.

• 58:27Speaker 01

  And one model that I think is useful for thinking about this is called the BITE model by Stephen Hassan. B I T E. It stands for behavior, information, thought and emotion. So these are four kind of methods of manipulation that typical cult leaders use in order to get their followers to do and believe certain things. So behavior control, you know, the B in BITE would be something like. Controlling what clothes someone wears, where they can go, who they can talk to, what they can eat, when they can sleep. Information control, the I in byte, is like feeding them cult propaganda in teaching them to distrust non-cult sources of information. So it's not just that you completely prevent them from observing things from the outside world, that's not really realistic, but you can teach them to not trust it when they do encounter it.

• 59:12Speaker 01

  So that's the information control. The T in byte is thought control, so saying prayers, singing hymns, repeating mantras.

• 59:23Speaker 01

  I mean, that kind of thing. And then the E in byte is emotion control, so making them feel certain emotions like,

• 59:33Speaker 01

  making them beholden to the cult through guilt, shame, anger, fear, that kind of thing. Those are methods of coercion that have been around.

• 59:40Chris Williamson?

  Way more effective than.

• 59:41Speaker 01

  But way more effective. Now, it is the case that it might not necessarily work on any individual person. So the I, you know, the goal of a Manchurian candidate is we can hypnotize or drug this person, anyone, and make them do anything we want. That's not necessarily possible with a byte model, but with a large enough kind of cohort, there are people within that who might be very susceptible and suggestible, and then it might work on them in particular, even though it might not work on everyone.

• 1:00:06Chris Williamson?

  Did any of the research that they went through influence torture techniques or enhanced interrogation stuff for the future?

• 1:00:17Speaker 01

  This is another kind of ironic thing, because people have known for a long time that torture doesn't really work to get the truth. It'll make someone talk, you know, I mean, a quote that I use in the book is, if you have a blowtorch up someone's butt, this is from an intelligence officer, they're gonna talk, I mean, you can guarantee they'll say something, you just can't guarantee it's the truth. Yeah, I talk about the witch, kind of the European witch craze in the 17th century, briefly, talking about how, you know, you could put these witches on the rack and they would talk, they would say that anyone's a witch. There were these two Jesuit scholars who said that, you know, torture is really effective. And so someone took them down to see these witches on the rack, and he said, another turn of the rack, do you think these are warlocks? And she said, yes, I've seen them birth devil babies and all kinds of stuff. And so they were kind of convinced, okay, maybe torture just gets people to talk but not say the truth.

• 1:01:02Speaker 01

  So it's long been known that torture can be used to get people to say something, but you don't know what they're gonna say, or they'll basically say anything. For MKUltra, the idea was that we wanted to move beyond that. We wanted to find methods of manipulation that could be used to guarantee the truth without having to resort to a method that would make someone say anything. The irony is that when MKUltra failed, it's not that the CIA learned its lesson and then moved on to something else. It reverted back to torture. It reverted back to torture. That's the thing that we were trying to move away from, and now you go back to it.

• 1:01:34Chris Williamson?

  This fucking medieval solution. Well, we tried the LSD, it didn't work. Where's the rack? Have we still got the rack around? Can we grab, bring, roll the rack out?

• 1:01:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, and you know, I mentioned kind of the euphemisms of the CIA within this book. Torture isn't torture, of course, it's enhanced interrogation. And assassination isn't assassination, it's, you know, executive action, or it's targeted killing. Or, within the CIA, the group that was responsible for plotting these assassinations was known as the Health Alteration Committee. So, you know, a lot of you.

• 1:02:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, a lot of these euphemisms throughout. In fact, I end the book by saying, the irony, I mean, the last chapter of this book is history loves irony. Listeners may be noting that I'm using the word irony a lot, because this book is so full of it, and history really does love irony. But one of the great ironies of MKUltra is that it was basically unsuccessful at developing methods of mind control, and yet, within conspiracy circles, it has become the very definition of mind control. Anytime someone talks about brainwashing or whatever, it's always, this must be an MKUltra plant, or Britney Spears is being controlled by the CIA through MKUltra methods. It's like, you haven't, you haven't read much about MKUltra if you think it was that successful. It really wasn't.

• 1:02:52Chris Williamson?

  Right, well, or, maybe, that's a double fake.

• 1:02:55Speaker 01

  It could be, yeah, of course. Well, see, this is, this is, in the last chapter of the book, I talk about conspiracy theories that... Come off of MKUltra and one of the techniques these conspiracy theorists use, there are two things that lead MKUltra to become a very popular conspiracy theory. One is that in the 1970s, when Sidney Gottlieb was retiring from the CIA, and also Richard Helms, the head of the CIA, they retired at the same time. They destroyed many of the MKUltra files. They incinerated them because they didn't want anyone to know what they had been up to. Because they did this, it's not as if we don't have files on it. We still have a lot. But because they did this, it opens the door for anyone to paint MKUltra as anything they want to. Well, we don't know what was in those files, therefore MKUltra, I mean, these are actually conspiracies.

• 1:03:40Speaker 01

  MKUltra hosted human hunting expeditions for government officials where they would hunt people or, you know, pop stars or MKUltra mind controlled and there's child sex slaves and all kinds of stuff. But because the files, many of them were destroyed, who knows, maybe that's in there. So this is the technique of the conspiracy theorists. Can they prove any of that? No, they don't offer any documentary evidence, nothing, so they can't prove it. But also they say, well, you can't disprove me because, tell me that I'm, show me that I'm wrong. Like it's not proven, but it can't be disproven. It's non falsifiable. It's kind of like, what the point? What's the point?

• 1:04:12Chris Williamson?

  Yeah. Okay. So when did things start falling apart internally?

• 1:04:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, in the, so MKUltra ends in 1963 about and several of the sub projects continue into the late 60s through a program called MK Search, which was kind of like a continuation of MKUltra into the late 60s. But by that point, Sidney Gottlieb had moved on. He had become the head of the Technical Services Division, kind of the, the, what came after the TSS, the TSD. And he was in charge of creating those gadgets and disguises and documents and stuff for the CIA for a while. So, he, MKUltra kind of floundered after that. And in fact, in 1963, there was an internal CIA Inspector General report on MKUltra. And the Inspector General, John Ehrman, he says in the report that, in his words, this is illegal and unethical.

• 1:05:02Speaker 01

  Okay. So, so it didn't last too much longer after that. And then in the 1970s, Gottlieb and Richard Helms retired. And they were kind of the main champions of it within the CIA.

• 1:05:10Chris Williamson?

  Right.

• 1:05:12Chris Williamson?

  How does this all become litigious?

• 1:05:15Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:05:15Chris Williamson?

  When do the courts get involved?

• 1:05:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, the courts get involved really in the late 70s. But the reason why that happens is because in the late 1974 and into 75, there are several executive and congressional committees that are set up to investigate past abuses of the intelligence community. So the Rockefeller Commission, the Church Committee, the Pike Committee. There are some leaks out of the CIA. And on the front page of the New York Times, they start publishing in late 1974, reports about how the CIA was been has spied on anti-war protesters during the Vietnam War. And so these congressional committees were set up to investigate past abuses of the CIA. And one of those is MKUltra. So during these investigations, it comes out that the CIA had been involved in these unwitting drug experiments. That prompts several congressional hearings to launch investigations.

• 1:06:04Speaker 01

  So Sidney Gottlieb is subpoenaed. He's in India at that point, after he's retired. His wife had been grown up in India, had grown up there. And they were volunteering at a leper colony. And he gets subpoenaed, he comes back to the United States. And in exchange for testifying, his lawyer works out a deal whereby he is granted immunity for anything that he says in exchange for his testimony. So he's never held accountable for what he does. He has immunity for it. But that's when this starts coming out. And once that starts coming out, many of the victims of these MKUltra subprojects realize that, wait a second, I didn't know, you know, I was, I was involved in that project. I didn't know that it was funded by the CIA. And so they start suing the CIA. There are multiple lawsuits. One is from a group of prisoners from the Atlanta Federal Penitentiary,

• 1:06:49Speaker 01

  where Carl Pfeiffer was dosing them with LSD especially. And so they sue the CIA, but eventually it's dismissed because the statute of limitations, the judge says, has run out. So they don't get anything. And then the other more successful lawsuit is that Orlikow lawsuit, the victims of Ewan Cameron, his experiments in Montreal. About eight or nine of them eventually sue the CIA. They're represented by the famous civil rights attorney, Joseph Rao, and his law partner, James Turner. And as part of this lawsuit, Rao and Turner take the depositions of many of these people, not only the victims, but the perpetrators as well. And that's how I got them. Except this lawsuit was settled out of court for $750,000 to be split among the plaintiffs. And the, the depositions were never submitted at trial. And so they were in Rao's papers where I found them.

• 1:07:34Chris Williamson?

  Oh, wow.

• 1:07:37Chris Williamson?

  So is that 750,000, is that the largest payout that comes off the back of all of this? Is that the lion's share of the?

• 1:07:45Speaker 01

  It's tied for it because Frank Olson's family, remember, he was dosed with LSD at that Deep Creek Retreat and he died. His family, after, in the 1970s, they realized during these congressional investigations that, wait a second, they're talking about an army employee who jumped out of this window and he died? That, that sounds a lot like our, you know, husband or our father. And so they eventually threaten a lawsuit against the government. But in order to prevent that from happening, the Gerald Ford administration invites them to the White House. Gerald Ford, the president, personally meets with them and basically apologizes on behalf of the government. And they work out a deal whereby the family got 750,000 dollars in exchange for an agreement not to sue the government. So they got 750,000 as well. Um, yeah.

• 1:08:31Chris Williamson?

  Wow. What made the secrecy of all this so self-sustaining when it came to the way that this was all operated?

• 1:08:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, there are several factors within the CIA that allowed this to continue. I think there was very little internal oversight. So one of those is that the CIA was very highly compartmentalized. So very few people actually knew what was going on with MKUltra. We think of the CIA as this entity and there's all these people and surely they're working behind the scenes. And that is the case for the most part, but it's not as if they all know what each other is doing. So for MKUltra, there might have been a dozen people who even knew about this project within the CIA. So when you have that much compartmentalization, it means that there's less accountability because there's less people to put you in check. So that's one problem that allowed this to happen is just the highly compartmentalized

• 1:09:19Speaker 01

  nature, which in a sense is a necessary kind of evil to a degree because the CIA does have to keep secrets. I mean, it has to have some secrets. It's just the amount of how, how much should be kept secret and how much, how many people should know about any particular thing. Of course, that's on a spectrum, but it's got to keep some, but that secrecy allows it to avoid accountability in many instances. So that's one factor. Another factor would be the lack of a record, the lack of a paper trail, mostly because Gottlieb and Helms destroyed many of these files, even though a lot still exist. And they were never punished for it. They were never punished for it. So there was no accountability for that. So Gottlieb got immunity, but what about the other guy?

• 1:10:00Speaker 01

  Richard Helms, he, I mean, nothing happened to him because of this. He eventually got, um, he eventually got in trouble for perjury in front of Congress for something unrelated. He said that we weren't.

• 1:10:10Speaker 01

  Oh, for fuck's sake. Yeah. He said that we weren't doing something meddling in this foreign country. I forget exactly what it was, but it turns out he just lied to Congress and he got convicted of perjury for that. But yeah. Yeah. So those are a few factors within the CIA that enabled this to continue going without anyone putting a stop to it. And the reason why I think it continued for so long, especially in there wasn't much accountability, is what I call kind of the vicious cycle of secrecy. There was very little congressional oversight of the CIA during the Cold War. In fact, many congresspeople specifically said they didn't want to know what was going on in the CIA.

• 1:10:49Speaker 01

  I think this was a holdover from a World War II mentality where Congress didn't really know much about the Manhattan Project. They kind of just approved the funds for the army to do kind of whatever. And so after the war, it seemed like that was a good idea. It was good that we didn't know this was going on.

• 1:11:02Speaker 01

  We had so much success. We just finished the war with it. Exactly. Yeah, it's great. We didn't know because we might have shut it down. It's great that we let these scientists do this thing because it can end the war for us. That mentality carried over and the idea was that, well, within the CIA or the army, maybe it's in our best interest not really to peek into those nooks and crannies and the dark corners and see what they're doing. Because maybe they're working on something that we don't know whether we should put a stop to something or not. We're just going to let them do what they do. And so there was very little congressional oversight during the Cold War. I think that allowed this lack of accountability, this, um, this secrecy to encompass the CIA and allow them to do these unethical things.

• 1:11:41Speaker 01

  And kind of the vicious cycle of secrecy I mentioned is the idea that when you have an organization like the CIA that has secrecy, that inevitably leads to plausible deniability. Because no one can really know what you're up to. Therefore, I mean, you can always say you didn't do something you did. Who's going to find out? It's secret. Plausible deniability in turn, it leads to reckless behavior. Again, because you're not going to be held accountable for what you do. Reckless behavior in many instances, like with MKUltra, it leads to embarrassment. Because eventually something leaks out, someone finds out, they put it in the New York Times and were embarrassed for what happened because they found out we were actually doing these unethical things. Then embarrassment leads to secrecy because we've got to make sure no one does this again. We can't have this leak out. We need more secrecy.

• 1:12:25Speaker 01

  So that's kind of the vicious cycle that plays out, I think.

• 1:12:28Chris Williamson?

  What does this sort of grow into? Are you aware of any more similar programs that occur after MK? Obviously, MKUltra sort of tries to limp forward in a variety of other forms. After that, is it all just secrecy and nothing's got out?

• 1:12:49Speaker 01

  I don't think anything like MKUltra itself was happening really after the late 1960s. The conspiracy theorists listening to this will say, no, it's still going on, MKUltra. One conspiracy theory is called Project Monarch. They say this is a kind of a sub-project of MKUltra that, you know, it's still going on and they're recruiting these children from certain families to have. They call them multi-generational incest abused children. They want to give them multiple personalities to make them disassociate from what's happening to them so they're easier victims of these sex pedophiles or whatever it is. But the first mention that I can find of this Project Monarch, which didn't exist,

• 1:13:32Speaker 01

  is in a journal called Phoenix. It's this conspiracy journal and the journal itself claims to have been written by a nine-foot tall alien from the Pleiades star system. So I don't really put much stock in that. But it seems to be kind of where this idea originated. One of the most prominent MKUltra conspiracy theorists who champions this kind of Project Monarch thing, she, after that came out, a couple of months later, she published an article in that journal saying, oh, I've been one of these, I've been one of the victims of Project Monarch. But I don't think that's true at all. Now, I think ironically, I think she is a victim, though. I don't think she's a victim of MKUltra. She wrote a book about her supposed experience. And in that book, it's co-authored by her husband.

• 1:14:15Speaker 01

  And her husband was a member of what's called the International Society for the Study of Dissociation. It was like this pseudo-scientific conspiracy theory society that was championing satanic panic theories during the 1980s. And during that satanic panic, there were this kind of false memory syndrome that was going around. The idea that if we hypnotize someone, it might induce their, they might recall these repressed memories. In fact, it was like inducing false memories in people. And he says in this book that he did this hypnotism on her and he was able to recover these memories. But I don't think he recovered the memories. I think those memories were basically implanted by her trying to think of something that happened to her that didn't actually happen.

• 1:14:56Chris Williamson?

  Well, the crazy thing is if you want to give someone multiple personality disorder, you don't need to deliver them drugs or a CIA program. You just need to let them download TikTok. Just give them TikTok and watch a ton of influencers, whatever it's called, the others or the multiples or whatever.

• 1:15:10Speaker 01

  Oh, I don't know.

• 1:15:11Chris Williamson?

  There's been a ton of TikTok-induced tics. Tics is in, and one of the, just a berserk fucking psychological malady that appears to have been hallucinated. Although, I mean, if you feel like you've got it, is it hallucination? It's, you know, it's there for you, right? Even if it's not in the classical sense. But yeah, multiple personality disorder, the newest trend, the newest psychological malady trend that appears to be swimming around on TikTok.

• 1:15:40Speaker 01

  And you know, you raised an interesting point because I don't think she's, I mean, I think she's sincere in the sense that I think this thing actually happened to her. So I don't think she's insincere, like she's trying to do people. I think she falsely thinks this thing actually happened to her. And she will, she will say something like, well, I know these memories must be true because they're so vivid to me. Like, you know, I can recall them so vividly. They're so traumatic. How could you forget something as traumatic as what I went through with these, you know, MKUltra experiments done on me? And I was prostituted to all these presidents and government officials and first ladies and whoever. But, I mean, there was an experiment even before this that showed that even vivid and traumatic memories are just as likely to be false as any other memories are likely to be false. This was when the Challenger space shuttle exploded. I don't know if, you know, that was a while ago.

• 1:16:24Speaker 01

  But when that exploded at Emory University, there were a couple of psychologists who decided the day after that happened, they had their students write down everything they remembered about how they heard about the explosion. So where they were, who they were with, et cetera. And then a couple of years later, they got forty something of these students to take this same exact questionnaire. When the Challenger exploded, where were you, who were you with, et cetera? A majority of the students got a majority of the significant details completely wrong. And when they were confronted with their original responses, many of them said, you know what? I think my present memory is actually the correct one.

• 1:16:59Chris Williamson?

  Wow, well, that's a kind of like a version of the Mandela Effect, right?

• 1:17:04Speaker 01

  Uh, yeah, is that, uh, can you remind me? What is that exactly?

• 1:17:07Chris Williamson?

  It's a series of memories that people seem to have that upon closer inspection aren't true if you do the investigation.

• 1:17:17Speaker 01

  Like the Bernstein bears and the Berenstain bears, that kind of thing?

• 1:17:20Chris Williamson?

  The fruit of the loom logo.

• 1:17:22Speaker 01

  Yes, the cornucopia.

• 1:17:23Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. If you wanna fuck yourself up, search Mandela Effect examples. Uh, just do it with a couple of people and it will incite a Thanksgiving sized argument. It will, it will incite a Elon versus Trump sized argument around the dinner table. Dr. John Lisle, ladies and gentlemen, John, you're so fucking good, man. This is awesome. Original research, deep in the archives, dusty old shit to come and mansplain like this interesting stuff to me. It's so cool. Where should people go? They're gonna wanna read the book, get all of your stuff.

• 1:17:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, the book is Project Mind Control. Uh, if you wanna keep up with me, I do have an X or Twitter. You know, it's just my name, John Lisle, J O H N, L I S L E. I don't post often, but if I have an update about an upcoming project or something, that's where it would be. So that's the place.

• 1:18:12Chris Williamson?

  What are you working on next? I asked you this last time. I got excited for this book. Can you, what do we know?

• 1:18:18Speaker 01

  I think the next one is going to be fairly different. I'm a historian of science at heart. You know, this is, and this involves science and scientists, but you know, I'm, I think I'm done with the intelligence community, maybe for now. I'm ready to move on to something closer to my original. You know, I mean, what I'm trained in, the history of science, more so. And so I'm really interested in a few expeditions. I like adventure stories. I've been reading like Hampton Sides Into the Kingdom of Ice is such a good book about this polar expedition. So I thought I want to do the equivalent, but for like a scientific expedition that is involved dangers and shootouts with bandits and snake attacks and man eating dog attacks and falling over a cliff. So I think I found a story that has all that kind of stuff, but allows me to tie in some history of science, the history of evolution.

• 1:19:04Speaker 01

  In an interesting expedition. So all that stuff I think will be packaged in a, in a fun way. So that, I think that's the next project.

• 1:19:10Chris Williamson?

  Hurry up and write it so I can talk to you about it again. Dude, I appreciate you, man. Until next time.

• 1:19:14Speaker 01

  You too. Okay.

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