The Big Porn Debate (3 Experts Debate): The Unseen Dangers Of Nofap, The Adult Industry Is Exploiting Our Brains, How Porn Will Change Your Brain!

Porn. Harmless adult fun or corrupting the next generation of men? 3 guests, 1 dividing topic, no perspective is off limits The Diary Of A CEO’s first ever panel discussion is joined by three world-leading experts: Dr Alok Kanojia, Dr Rena D Malik, and Erika Lust. Dr Alok Kanojia is a Harvard-trained psychiatrist and President and Co-Founder of Healthy Gamer. Dr Rena D Malik is a Urologist and Sexual Health Expert. Erika Lust is an erotic film director, screenwriter and producer, and the founder of Erika Lust Films. In this conversation, the panel and Steven discuss topics such as, the link between porn and relationship failure, how porn rewires your brain, the impact of porn on sexual satisfaction, and the link between porn and erectile dysfunction. Follow Dr Alok: Website - https://g2ul0.app.link/QkWFeh2aNNb Instagram - https://g2ul0.app.link/99yMxjXaNNb Twitter - https://g2ul0.app.link/AURhxMZaNNb Learn more from Dr. K in his Guide to Mental Health, here: https://g2ul0.app.link/elqQIdkhUNb Follow Dr Rena: Website - https://g2ul0.app.link/gsYkVXjbNNb Instagram - https://g2ul0.app.link/i7nzpF4aNNb Twitter - https://g2ul0.app.link/FvsFnF7aNNb Follow Erika: Website - https://g2ul0.app.link/nrW9dggbNNb Instagram - https://g2ul0.app.link/DftilqabNNb Twitter - https://g2ul0.app.link/agzFiZcbNNb Watch the episodes on Youtube - https://g2ul0.app.link/DOACEpisodes My new book! 'The 33 Laws Of Business & Life' is out now - https://g2ul0.app.link/DOACBook You can purchase the The Diary Of A CEO Conversation Cards: Second Edition, here: https://g2ul0.app.link/f31dsUttKKb Follow me: https://beacons.ai/diaryofaceo Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Steven Bartlett?

  This has never happened before. Today, we have three experts in their field with three different opinions debating the subject of porn. This is the first time I've gone on Pornhub at work.

• 0:11Speaker 01

  In one corner, we have Dr. Rena Malik, the sex scientist helping millions of couples enhance their sex lives. In the other corner, we have Dr. Kate.

• 0:20Steven Bartlett?

  The psychiatrist specializing in helping people with addictions to pornography and more.

• 0:24Speaker 01

  Who is up against Erika Lust, who runs a large pornographic production company?

• 0:28Steven Bartlett?

  No one can sit on the fence here. Is porn a benefit to people and society?

• 0:33Speaker 02

  Definitely, and especially for people who haven't really had that right to pleasure, to understand their sexuality.

• 0:41Alok Kanojia?

  But I think what we're clearly seeing is a trend of it being damaging. Let me just share with you all what I'm afraid of. It is doing way more to the brain than we ever realized. So the first thing that we know is that...

• 0:53Speaker 04

  But there's data to suggest that couples that use pornography together have better sexual encounters, and women who use pornography have better sexual satisfaction rates.

• 1:05Speaker 02

  And remember that women's sexuality has been so much about pleasing others, and you see it with orgasm gap.

• 1:12Speaker 04

  A devil's advocate would say that there is a significant number of women interested in looking a certain way that they're often seeing on pornography. That's harmful.

• 1:21Speaker 02

  I'm a bit suspicious about this because honestly, that statement is from 10 years ago.

• 1:26Alok Kanojia?

  But there's also unrealistic expectations about performance. That creates shame.

• 1:30Speaker 04

  And small penis anxiety is a real thing, and it's often from watching pornography.

• 1:35Speaker 02

  The real problem is we are not giving sex education to our young people. They are lost.

• 1:42Alok Kanojia?

  But it doesn't have to be an addiction. It's the way that you relate to it.

• 1:46Speaker 04

  It is something that people can control.

• 1:49Speaker 02

  And parents can learn how to have these conversations with their kids.

• 1:53Alok Kanojia?

  And there are a couple of really nice techniques that you can use. The first is that...

• 2:03Steven Bartlett?

  Let's start with introductions. Dr. Rena, who are you and what do you do?

• 2:09Speaker 04

  So I'm a urologist, which is essentially a medical and surgical doctor of the genital urinary tract. But I see myself more as a digital opinion leader in the space of sexual health and urologic health. So someone who can talk to and speak about complex concepts in addition to sexual health in a way that people can understand.

• 2:28Steven Bartlett?

  Can you give me sort of a view of the variety of things that you've worked on in your career, the types of patients you've worked within the subject matter broadly that you've addressed and are confronted with in your line of work?

• 2:40Speaker 04

  Absolutely. So as a urologist, we're trained to treat anything in those areas of the genital urinary tract. So that can be kidney cancer, prostate cancer, bladder cancer, sexual health erectile dysfunction, female sexual dysfunction, kidney stones, children's issues. But then, when I did a fellowship in called Female Pelvic Medicine and Reconstructive Surgery or Uro-gynecology. So I initially trained in dealing with voiding dysfunction and problems with bladder leakage, overactive bladder, prolapse, those sorts of things. And subsequently extended my practice into sexual medicine. So I take care of patients with issues with erectile dysfunction, arousal disorders, ejaculatory

• 3:22Speaker 04

  dysfunction, libido issues, lubrication issues, a whole bunch of different areas of issues that people deal with when it comes to sexual health.

• 3:32Steven Bartlett?

  Dr. Kay, same question to you.

• 3:34Alok Kanojia?

  Sure. So I'm a psychiatrist by training, but I had kind of a roundabout way to get there. So I failed out of college due to video game addiction and then went to India to find myself, studied to become a monk for about seven years, and then wound up going to medical school, becoming a psychiatrist. And now the majority of the work that I do is actually like focused on the internet. So what I noticed when I was training was that if you look at like academic psychiatry or psychiatry, we focus on things like depression or bipolar disorder or anxiety. But I saw that there was a whole lot of evolving mental health problems for the digital generation, video game addiction, pornography addiction. And I noticed that most of the psychiatrists weren't focused on those.

• 4:17Alok Kanojia?

  We kind of had an opioid epidemic that's still going on, a lot of problems with alcohol and marijuana, but there are all these digital addictions that are emerging and those are the people that I work with now.

• 4:27Steven Bartlett?

  Erika.

• 4:28Speaker 02

  Ja.

• 4:29Steven Bartlett?

  Kto jesteś i co robisz?

• 4:31Speaker 02

  Jestem Erika, jestem indywidualną dorosłą filmikarz. Jestem przedsiębiorcą. Zrobiłam pierwszą krótką filmę, explícitną, 20 lat temu. A potem rozwinięłam karierę w tym obszarze indie dorosłego cinema.

• 4:51Steven Bartlett?

  I jesteś dyrektorem?

• 4:53Speaker 02

  Tak.

• 4:55Steven Bartlett?

  Dorosłych filmów?

• 4:55Speaker 02

  Tak, dyrektuję filmy, produję filmy, także prowadzę firmę.

• 5:01Steven Bartlett?

  Aby zauważyć, gdzie jesteśmy z pornografią, znalazłem kilka statystyk, które myślałam, że są całkiem powiązane z dyskusją, która jest... Pierwsza statystka to, że 30% wszystkiego traktu internetu jest prawdopodobnie związane z pornografią. 35% wszystkich pobieranych z internetu są pornograficzne w naturze. 79% młodych mężczyzn widzą pornografię miesięcznie. 64% młodych dorosłych szkodliwie szukają pornografii tygodniowo lub bardziej. Jedna z pięciu szukaniów mobilnych jest za pornograficzną informacją. 58% mężczyzn i 38% kobiet oglądam pornotwórczo. A websites pornograficzne otrzymują więcej traktu niż Netflix, Amazon i Twitter włącznie. Interesownie znalazłem inną statystykę, która powiedziała, że pornografia w Polsce zwiększyła się 310% pomiędzy 2004, co myślę, że to kiedy wpadłeś w biznes, a 2016.

• 5:45Steven Bartlett?

  Jakieś inne potencjalne przyczyny, które myślałam, że są interesujące, były to, że procent mężczyzn w wieku 18 do 24 mówiąc, że nie ma seksualnej aktywitywnej w przeszłości zwiększył się od 18,9% w 2000 do ponad 30% w 2016. I podobne zwiększenia w aktywitywie seksualnej są widziane w mężczyznach i kobietach. Podobne zwiększenia w aktywitywie seksualnej są widziane w mężczyznach i kobietach. Wśród uczniów z szkół, procent, którzy nigdy nie mieli seksualnego interkora, zwiększył się od 45% w 91 do 70% w 21. A w końcu średnie wieczne pojawienie się w pornografii jest teraz tylko 11 lat. I 64% młodych ludzi mówią, że spotkały się z pornografią z przypadkiem. Więc myślę, że moja pierwsza dyskusja, którą chciałem zwrócić, jest: jest pornografia...

• 6:33Steven Bartlett?

  A benefit to people and society. And I realise that this question is intentionally short and narrow. But that's the basis of the first conversation. And I want to start with you, Erica. Is porn a benefit to people in society?

• 6:47Speaker 02

  It can be. It can be, definitely. And especially to the others who haven't really had that right to pleasure, to desire, to the sexuality. Remember that women's sexuality especially has been so much about pleasing others. I think that it can help women to find, you know, their own desire, to understand their sexuality, to see others, what they like, what they are doing. And to turn their liberty on, liberty on, which is obviously one of the things that so many women are struggling with.

• 7:23Steven Bartlett?

  Let's go anti-clockwise. Dr. Kay, I'll repeat this statement. Is porn a benefit to people in society?

• 7:30Alok Kanojia?

  The way that porn is being produced and consumed is starting to cause way more harm than good. I mean, the statistics that you really just machine gunned out, right? Like, it's like one thing after another thing after another thing of things that are, you know, very scary. Like, each statement that both y'all made, I could think about a specific person that I've worked with, where it's like, yeah, I've seen that problem, I've seen that problem. You know, early exposure. So when you get exposed to pornography before puberty. So everyone thinks that pornography is about, you know, like sexual lust and this kind of stuff. And I think in a, in a good way, it can be. But what I've seen a lot of-

• 8:08Speaker 02

  For adults.

• 8:09Alok Kanojia?

  For adults. Is that children are getting exposed. And I've seen like a very scary correlation between early exposure to pornography, like seven, eight, nine years old. Right? So I think your statistic was the average is 11.

• 8:23Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 8:24Alok Kanojia?

  That's average, which means that there are people that are higher and people that are lower. And when something, I don't know what exactly, but when we get exposed to pornography very early, it makes some kind of alteration in our brain that makes us way more likely to addictions, not only pornography, but other things. So I think that there, sexuality is a healthy part of human existence. A lot of the current research suggests that masturbation is also, relatively speaking, not unhealthy, it's somewhat healthy. And so pornography can be a part of that. I think especially listening to Erica and how pornography can be used to elevate horizons, increase awareness. There can be benefits, but I think what we're clearly seeing is a trend of it being damaging.

• 9:08Speaker 04

  So I would say that I agree with Erica completely. I think there's actually some data to suggest that women who use pornography have better sexual satisfaction rates, have more frequency of sexual encounters, because they're learning about their bodies. And we can't know exactly why that is, but we know there is a correlation in that specific way. And so when people are using pornography for sexual curiosity, for pleasure, they're generally showing good, for the most part, without any signs of addiction or concerns of compulsion and use of pornography, they're using it in a good way and they're having better sex because of it. Now, in terms of using it as a couple, there's also really strong correlations that couples

• 9:50Speaker 04

  that use pornography together have better sexual encounters and better sexual satisfaction. So I think there's a lot of ways that pornography is used in a positive way, and not to undermine that there are people who struggle with it absolutely, but I think, yes, there are some benefits. It allows people to experience fantasies, to see different types of sexual cultures, as Erica mentioned, and I think that that is an important side of pornography in terms of using that to learn what you like and learn what you want to try in your relationship, if that's applicable.

• 10:24Steven Bartlett?

  Much of the literature that I've read about and the studies I've read about show that. If you consume pornography, you're somewhat desensitized to the real thing, i.e. sex and your relationships. And when we look at those stats on sexlessness, people are having less sex than previous years. People are losing their virginity later and later. And I wonder if that is, we've sort of been desensitized to the real thing because of pornography, Rena.

• 10:47Speaker 04

  Absolutely. So I think that there is certainly people who feel they use pornography as a way to achieve pleasure, and that is the sole way that they achieve pleasure. So they are constantly using pornography, and it's sometimes correlated with a certain style of masturbation. And those things cannot be replicated with penetrative intercourse of any kind, or, you know, manual intercourse with another person. And so in those cases, then it becomes difficult because your brain habituates to that style of stimulation and excitement and visual sensations that they're getting from watching pornography. And so that does happen to some individuals. I would say it's not the large majority,

• 11:32Speaker 04

  but certainly we're seeing more of it.

• 11:34Steven Bartlett?

  What is the impact, though, on the brain, especially a young brain that is exposed to pornography?

• 11:40Speaker 04

  Yeah, I mean, there's no, there's no studies on kids looking at pornography. So I couldn't tell you exactly, but you may be able to talk a little more about the...

• 11:47Alok Kanojia?

  Yeah, I mean, so like, first of all, I think this is a fascinating discussion. And if I can kind of track back and freestyle for a bit. So I thought it was so interesting because Stephen asked this question, right? And he's like, you know, is pornography a problem? And then I thought it was so interesting that the two women at the table had the more positive answers. And the dude is like, it's bad, right? So I think the first thing to understand is that, and it's so, for me, it's eye-opening to hear both of y'all talk. Because I think so much of it is like your experience of it, right? We're talking about pornography as if it's an isolated thing. But the biggest takeaway that I already have is that there is a relationship between the human and the pornography. Erica was talking about, you know, how pornography can be used to help the

• 12:32Alok Kanojia?

  human understand sexuality, become more familiar with pleasure, that we have this

• 12:37Speaker 02

  Connect with your desire.

• 12:38Alok Kanojia?

  Yeah, and we have this orgasm gap. And then, and then, you know, she's, and Rena was saying, you know, we don't, I forgot exactly what you said, but something about, we don't see it very much. Or you said that the, the problems of, you know, sexuality relating to pornography, or I thought you said not that common, which is, which is something that I'm not saying it's common or uncommon. I think that's just such an interesting selection difference. Because I work with people who have pornography and like, death grip syndrome, because I've never heard it discussed, is like, very common. What's death grip syndrome? So it's exactly, it's a Twitch chat degenerate way of describing what Dr. Malik

• 13:17Alok Kanojia?

  did a great medical job of describing, which is that, so what happens is our body can acclimatize to a certain kind of stimulation. So when, oftentimes what happens when, and I, I haven't worked with too many women in sexual stuff, way more men. So that there's a selection bias there too. But oftentimes what happens is that boys or men will start to masturbate without any kind of lubrication. And so there's a, they almost train their bodies physiologically to climax with a certain degree, like a certain, you know, pounds per square inch of force, and a certain sensation which they get used to, not only at the physiologic level, but

• 13:59Alok Kanojia?

  also at the neurological level, which Dr. Malik alluded to, that there's a certain kind of visual stimulation that they almost get used to, the brain acclimatizes to, in order to achieve sexual climax. And then what happens is when these people have a sexual relationship for the first time, the sensations and the, from a visual perspective, you know, auditory perspective, because the sounds that we hear in these big, you know, fast food pornography productions are nowhere near the sounds in real life. And so the inputs of an actual sexual act make it very difficult to have a satisfied

• 14:40Alok Kanojia?

  sexual life. And so I think there's a lot of subtlety to, you know, when Dr. Malik said when couples watch porn together, there are also studies that show that as you increase your pornography consumption, that correlates with relationship dissatisfaction. But that could be a chicken or the egg problem. Am I watching more porn because I'm unhappy with the sexual relationship? Or does watching pornography decrease my satisfaction in the relationship? And so I think it's there's just like so much here to explore.

• 15:12Speaker 04

  Yeah. Yeah. And I think your point about the couples, usually if there's a discrepancy in one partner is watching more porn than the other, then there's decreased satisfaction, certainly. And I think that your point to saying that you're seeing a lot of it, well, that's these people come to you for this problem, right? So you're seeing this exclusively.

• 15:29Alok Kanojia?

  Yeah.

• 15:30Speaker 04

  But I think in the general population, and maybe they're not coming to the urologist as often, right? But certainly I'm not seeing as much of it. And it's not reported in terms of like people complaining about it in studies. And again, these studies are small numbers and they're not generalizable to the entire population. But I would say that it's not as common as I think we let on. But the other important thing to add is that there's, because it's so nuanced, there's a big moral component. People have a belief about what pornography is, good or bad. And so when they watch pornography, if they have a moral incongruence, meaning they think it's bad to watch pornography, they are more likely to report having a problem with pornography. So there's a lot of nuance here in terms of how pornography can be beneficial

• 16:14Speaker 04

  or harmful to a specific individual and how it affects that specific individual's brains. While it's going to send the same pathways, you know, as any sort of strong visual stimuli, the way your body sensitizes to those pathways is very individual.

• 16:29Steven Bartlett?

  And what about pornography and the brain then in terms of its impact on dopamine? And how that then will cascade into other areas of our lives?

• 16:37Alok Kanojia?

  Yeah, so I mean, I'll launch this one. So I think that the biggest takeaway that I have is it is doing way more than we ever realized. So the first thing is if you get exposed to pornography early on in life, and this accidental exposure, by the way, the most common story that I hear, and this is such a weird, like anecdotal statistic, is if you're, if you have an older brother and you're a younger brother, I see so many pornography addicts who have older brothers. And the most common story that I hear is, you know, older brother is post puberty and is watching pornography, which is like a little bit more understandable and acceptable. And then your younger brother wants to do whatever you're doing, and they get exposed

• 17:21Alok Kanojia?

  to it at an early age. So the first thing that we know is that early exposure correlates with an increase in potential for addiction. That's probably somewhat neurological and potentially somewhat sociological or family-oriented. Because if you think about what kind of seven-year-old will get exposure to pornography, maybe parents aren't in the house as much, so there could be other risk factors. But we absolutely know that when you activate in an artificial way the dopaminergic circuitry of the brain, it sensitizes the dopaminergic circuitry and makes it more vulnerable to dopamine later on. This is something called the kindling effect. We see this also, for example, in like marijuana as a gateway drug.

• 18:02Alok Kanojia?

  The reason marijuana is a gateway drug is not because it makes you immoral, it's because once we start activating certain circuits in the brain during brain development, it changes the way that they develop. The second thing that we see is that pornography is used as a method of emotional regulation. So if you look at, like, I was trying to figure out what effect does pornography have in the brain. And so I was thinking about, okay, which part of the brain does sex come from? And it turns out that every part of the brain, every neurotransmitter is involved in the sexual act. Because the purpose, the evolutionary purpose of a human being is to procreate. So all of our circuitry is designed for this thing. So we see that there's absolutely an emotional regulation component.

• 18:46Alok Kanojia?

  Because when we get aroused, like, our brain doesn't care about, you know, anything else in our life when it comes to the act of procreation. So we see a lot of emotional regulation, which then becomes an emotional crutch. So I see a lot of this now where people at work will watch pornography, and it's not about masturbation or lust. It's about emotional regulation. I've seen a huge spike in second-screen pornography. So we'll be working over here, and I'll just have porn like running over here. Like, this is a really common story, and it's an emotional regulation fact. Now, the third thing that you, the question you asked about is dopamine. So here's a really fascinating thing. So it absolutely messes with your dopamine. When it messes with your dopamine, it messes with your motivation, because dopamine is

• 19:30Alok Kanojia?

  the primary neurotransmitter involved in motivation. So as you watch more pornography, you just stop being as motivated about the other things in your life. And the really crippling thing, the really scary thing from a relationship standpoint, is that if we look at falling in love, falling in love is primarily the function of dopamine. So when we look at a relationship, there's initial attraction, which comes from like the thalamus in our sensory inputs. What do I see? What do I hear? Oh, she smells great. Her laugh is beautiful, right? That's all sensory. And then we get into the stage where we're in love, when I can't get enough of this person. I'm just sitting with this person. We're not talking, we're not doing anything, we're just holding hands and, oh, I'm so in love. So like, literally what creates that feeling is dopamine.

• 20:13Alok Kanojia?

  And when we start using pornography on a regular basis, our dopamine stores start to deplete, we start to develop dopamine tolerance. And like, literally what I'm seeing clinically matches with this, because it's harder for people to fall in love. When I talk to younger people now who are in their twenties and thirties and struggling to date, you know, you go on a couple of dates, but what's the problem? There's no chemistry, there's no spark. That comes from dopamine. So I think we're seeing all kinds of really scary downstream effects from unregulated pornography use.

• 20:46Speaker 02

  I can't help but feeling that what you're talking about is a very masculine experience somehow. And that when we're talking about porn addiction or compulsory behaviour with pornography, it is very related to men and that we in our society tends to see men's experiences as universal experiences. And I think that we lack a perspective of really where women get into this construction of addiction, of use of pornography. Is it?

• 21:25Steven Bartlett?

  Rena, do you see it as an addiction?

• 21:27Speaker 04

  So, you know, this is what I think. I think that, so it's not been termed an addiction in terms of medical vernacular. They call it problematic porn use because there hasn't been a clear definition in terms of addiction. Right? But I would say that I think that there are certainly people who have this experience, but there's certainly many, many people who use pornography and don't develop this tolerance. And maybe it's more common in younger people because they're getting access to it sooner and more often. And that has yet to play out, at least I tend to see older patients. And so, so that has yet to play out in older generations. But I would say that I think there's many people who use it fine and don't have an issue. And so I think that while these issues do exist, there's also a whole bunch of other things

• 22:12Speaker 04

  that are ongoing in society right now that may make it more difficult for people to connect and for people to feel intimacy with people because it's very difficult currently. More and more people are not getting married. More and more people are choosing to stay single for a variety of reasons. I don't think porn is the only factor there. I do think it is something that people can control. And so they feel like, okay, if you feel like you have a problem with it and you can control pornography, that allows you to feel like you have control in one area of your life, then that control can potentially improve other areas of your life. So I think that there is. Correlations here, but I think it's very complex. I think the way it affects our brains is very complex as well. And like dopamine is one way to describe it. But there's, you know, there's different sensitivities in how our brain responds to the same stimuli.

• 22:56Speaker 04

  Right? The way I watch pornography, the way you watch pornography, the way any one of us watches pornography, our brains will respond in a different way because our receptors are either more sensitive or less sensitive. And there's no way to really test that on an individual level.

• 23:11Steven Bartlett?

  One of the things I found most interesting when I had the first conversation on this podcast about pornography is my, my team went out and looked at a couple of tools which pull search data. So what are people searching on the subject? And the number one most searched term was how do I quit pornography? And that's quite an interesting thing because there's a certain desperation to that question. You know, going to Google to ask Google how you quit a behavior, that makes me think of it in the context of an addiction. And in fact, the second most popular search term was also about how, how you quit this thing. And it, and it speaks to a certain powerlessness that a certain percentage of people feel they have with pornography. Throwing that out to everybody here.

• 23:52Speaker 02

  No, but I think this connects also to the stigma, the huge stigma around sex and around porn and this idea that people have somehow that it is bad. I mean, people want to watch it. At the same time, they, they have the moral idea that it's bad and that they shouldn't do it. But I think we're also talking here. I mean, we end up talking about porn all the time, but somehow porn is now very related to technology and how technology kind of has hijacked our lives. It's not only porn we're struggling with in that sense. And when, you know, with young people, they are saying they are not having as much sex anymore. You were talking about it before.

• 24:36Speaker 02

  Kids are not playing as much anymore outside as they used to. So I think we have a correlation there that we need to think about the role of technology.

• 24:50Speaker 02

  And then how much of that space does really this pornography take up? And also to have in mind that when we're talking about porn, most people see it as a monolithic kind of thing. When, when if you go out on the street and you ask people, what is porn? They think about the tube sites. That's what, that's what they have in mind. But actually, there's many different kinds of porn existing.

• 25:17Steven Bartlett?

  Do you think there's such a thing as good porn and bad porn?

• 25:20Speaker 02

  It's a very difficult kind of distinction to say bad porn and good porn, because if you do that, then it's, you classify some type as, as acceptable and other types as none. And you kind of, you know, grow the stigma around it. I think that we need to think about porn that is made with great working conditions, taking care of everybody who's involved in that process, especially the performers, made with support by intimacy coordinator, talent managers, where the performers have been able to been involved in the process to give feedback on what is going to be made, how, how it's working. They have, they know all the conditions beforehand, et cetera.

• 26:05Speaker 02

  They can give feedback afterwards. I think there are ways of producing pornography that are safer than what we have seen in the past.

• 26:16Steven Bartlett?

  We were talking a second ago about the impact pornography has on the brain. And I know some of your work involves dealing with people who have erectile dysfunction. Some of the stats I read on erectile dysfunction show that there's been quite a significant increase over the last couple of decades in people reporting to have erectile dysfunction. Do you think porn has played a role in increasing erectile dysfunction as it relates to when I'm with my partner in the bedroom and I'm trying to have sex?

• 26:38Speaker 04

  So I think this goes back to the people who are watching pornography and are learning what sex is through pornography. And then they go to their sexual encounter with their partner and they don't respond the way that they do on pornography, or their partner doesn't respond the way they do on pornography. And immediately they feel insecure, right? Immediately. And that leads to this psychogenic erectile dysfunction. Where you are no longer able to perform because you're so stressed about the anxiety of being able to get an erection because maybe things didn't go the way they were supposed to, or maybe you're insecure about your body image, or a whole host of things that come from watching maybe some of the big box pornography where we're not really showing

• 27:20Speaker 04

  real sex, we're showing a produced product that is meant to entertain and captivate people for a short period of time. And so I think that is one certainly issue that I do see where people start feeling this. The other thing is where people are, you know, using pornography over quite often and then they, again, are unable to get that stimulation through a partner, right? They can't get the same, they're using Death Grip or they're using, you know, the same, this very erotic stimuli, this very intense visual erotic stimuli that they can't produce with a person. And so then they're like, well, why am I not getting aroused? And why am I not getting an erection? And it's because they've now

• 28:00Speaker 04

  relied on this solely. So I do see that certainly as an issue in some people who are using pornography. But I don't think it's like pornography use leads to ED. I think it's these other factors on the way to having psychological concerns about your own performance that lead to issues with erections.

• 28:19Steven Bartlett?

  And before we move on, on Dr. Kay's point about motivation as well, do you believe that there's a correlation between the amount that we watch pornography and masturbate and someone's motivation based on what you know about dopamine receptors?

• 28:32Speaker 04

  You know, hard to say. I think, again, it's very individual. Certainly, some people will take the ease, like, you know, there is a availability part when it comes to any sort of addiction type behavior. So when something is more available to you and you're using it more often, it can become more problematic. And so certainly, I think that plays a role in terms of like, if you're using it a lot and it's very available to you and it's an easy way to emotionally regulate, right? If you're having stress in life, you're unhappy with your relationship, or you're unhappy with other things, people are often using pornography as a way to avoid those negative emotions and really just participate in something else, like take their mind off of that. And so that is sort of where it becomes this challenge for some people.

• 29:18Alok Kanojia?

  Yeah, I just want to chime in. So this is fantastic because I agree with everything that y'all are saying. And I also kind of come to a slightly different conclusion. So the number one search term that we have is how do I quit porn? So when I hear that, and I think Dr. Malik has also done a great job of pointing out, you know, there's a difference between anecdotal clinical experience and what we have randomized clinical trials on. You know, we're not exposing seven-year-olds to pornography and then seeing how their brain develops by doing MRI scans over the course of 10 years. So some of this research is absolutely not there. And we also have the number one search term is how do I quit porn? What that tells me is that there is a, literally the largest population of what

• 30:03Alok Kanojia?

  people are looking at is to stop using pornography. And I think the reason for that is, is there good porn or is there bad porn? Is it individual? Is it nuanced? Completely agree with all those points. It's not a problem for everyone. But I think what I'm seeing very clearly is that it's getting worse. Right? So it's not an issue of good or bad. What is the trend that we're seeing? We're trend, the trend that we're seeing is that Erica is saying, hey, pornography can be more than the tube sites. So that then begs the question, why does everyone think that pornography is the tube sites?

• 30:34Speaker 02

  Because they hijacked the system.

• 30:37Alok Kanojia?

  Exactly. So I think that word is, is beautiful, hijack. So I think what we're seeing, what I'm seeing is that pornography is getting worse, for sure. It's becoming more of a problem. If we look at these tube sites, they're, they're, you know, it's kind of like, there's nutrition and then there's calories. And a lot of what I'm hearing y'all talk about, you know, Dr. Malik is saying, if you watch it as part of a relationship, that's nutrition. It can be something healthy. We can learn about ourselves. We can de-stigmatize various things. Fair enough. But I think we're seeing the same trends that we see with like, fast food, where now pornography is becoming mass-produced. And there are actually studies that show there's a really fascinating bizarre Piece of research, right? Which is where you have to go.

• 31:21Alok Kanojia?

  This is where I've gone to find this stuff because we don't have studies. But there was a particular group of biologists who were noticing that a population of beetles was dying out. And they were trying to figure out like, why is this population of beetles dying out? And what they discovered is there's one thing that's responsible for these beetles not mating with each other, which is green beer bottles that were being littered. And the green beer bottle, then what they noticed is that the beetles were trying to go up to the green beer bottle and mate with it. And they were like, what is going on? You'd see this litter that has a green beer bottle and a bunch of male beetles are clustered around it and like, they're like, what is this? And it turns out that there's this concept of something called a supranormal stimulus.

• 32:04Alok Kanojia?

  So when a beetle's eyes look at the environment, there are certain signals that indicate this is a fertile female. And a green glass beer bottle activates those parts of the brain. And what we're seeing with these tube sites is things are jiglier, things are louder, things are slipperier, right? We have these 4K, high def, like, so we're sort of turning, we're taking what used to be nutritious and we are turning it into fast food. And that, and what, why, all of these tube sites, why are they successful? They're in this Darwinian war that's kind of like a race to the bottom. How can I create the pornography that is going to leech the most traffic away from my competitors?

• 32:46Alok Kanojia?

  And they're figuring out very rapidly that there are all kinds of weird ways to activate the brain, what our brain looks for and what it gets excited about. And so it feels to me like there's a race to the bottom. We're making pornography for money. We're making it more addictive.

• 33:02Speaker 02

  But the thing is that these companies behind these tube sites, they are not interested in human sexuality, they're not interested in sex, they're not interested in porn, they're not interested in the conditions of the people who are working in front of the camera. I mean, they're selling advertisement. And what do they need for that? They need content that is extreme, that has words, that are clickbaity, that are kind of small clips that are quick to watch. They look at the algorithms to see what works, right?

• 33:33Steven Bartlett?

  But this reminds me of the food industry.

• 33:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, of course. It's a famous big food. It's a famous big pharma, big fashion, et cetera. Big porn is the same.

• 33:41Steven Bartlett?

  How does an industry succeed if it doesn't engage in that practice, though? Because think about the food industry, the thing that has the most sugar in, that's the most available, the cheapest, is the thing that's going to succeed the most. So in the, we think about these tube sites, some of the stats are crazy. I mean, OnlyFans released their earnings for last year, up 20%, they made 6.6 billion. Pornhub, one of the big tube sites, is the eighth most trafficked website in the world at the moment, doing 5.5 billion monthly visits.

• 34:08Speaker 02

  These are the brands that people recognize.

• 34:10Steven Bartlett?

  And it's, it's extreme. Like, if we think about nutrition, high in sugar, it's extreme. So I get the, the most extreme sort of dopamine stimulation. It's so easy to access. I can, one, I don't have to put my shoes on and put my aftershave on. I can just, I can get on there within 15 seconds. For me to get laid, I'm gonna have to put in some work. I'm gonna have to go to the gym, I'm gonna have to take care, I'm gonna have to go get a job. I'm gonna have to get some money. I'm gonna, I'm gonna have to learn how to speak to a woman. Or 15 seconds and I can see the most extreme.

• 34:43Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, I, I think that's the problem.

• 34:44Speaker 04

  But I do worry to some, I'm gonna play a little bit of devil's advocate. My devil's advocate would say that because there's so much moral incongruence that leads to problematic porn use, porn addiction, whatever you want to call it, right? That we're creating more of it by disparaging pornography, right? Like that everywhere people are saying pornography is bad, pornography is bad. You can't go on any social media platform without somebody citing a study that says pornography is leeching people's life force and their, you know, their life is falling apart because of pornography.

• 35:13Speaker 02

  Porn destroy lives.

• 35:14Speaker 04

  Right. And, and so, but so then we're also adding to that moral incongruence by saying that all pornography is bad. Pornography is there because we're watching it, right? And so people, like, if you asked, like, probably the generation older to me, like, would you be, would you be interested in watching porn where you're seeing the things that you're seeing now, which, I mean, shocking to me, right? Like, they would be like, no, I don't want to see that, right? Like, that doesn't interest me in the slightest. But like, why is this becoming so, you know, people are watching it?

• 35:44Speaker 02

  I mean, to me, so much of this is totally anti-aerotic. I sometimes go there to investigate and to kind of see what's what's going on and what's happening. And I feel like, oh, no, don't joke with this. I don't want to see it. Oh, I'd rather throw up than, you know, feel excitement than wanting to to have sex. So it has an opposite effect on on lots of their their audiences, actually. But again, what is it about? It's about earning money and concentrating power. It's about selling advertisement. That's what they're doing. It's grow your dick pills. It stays a sexy Latina in your neighborhood.

• 36:22Speaker 02

  It's and and as a society, we have been very slow to see what has happened because these sites, they were born, you know, seventeen years ago, two thousand and seven, they came out. It happened very, very fast.

• 36:41Alok Kanojia?

  So a couple of thoughts. The first is like, yeah, that's exactly what's going on is like, so if we think about it, we have all of these, every part of our brain, right? Oxytocin, dopamine, serotonin, estrogen, testosterone, right? Those are hormones, not brains. But, you know, every circuit of the brain, all of our neurotransmitters, they're all to help us procreate. And now what's happened is people have fundamentally hijacked all of these circuits. And we're seeing problems. And I'm with you about the moral incongruence because we see this in other addictions as well, where we we tried to like demonize like alcohol usage, right? And we know that once we separate out the moral incongruence, because once I feel guilty and ashamed, this is something I see a lot. I watch pornography.

• 37:24Alok Kanojia?

  Now I feel ashamed. How am I going to cope with those emotions? Watching more pornography. And so you create this cycle of like more like this moral focused cycle of shame, and that actually fuels the dependence. So that's absolutely an issue. At the same time, like these companies, and they don't care about eroticness or falling in love or whatever, right? They're interested in making a buck, and they're exploiting our brain. And while we should be a little bit careful about the moralistic nature of it, I mean, I've seen it gets so much, it's getting worse, like every time, every year, and this could be selection bias, right? Because I'm an addiction psychiatrist. But I think it's like even with something like OnlyFans, because now what we're adding is a social component.

• 38:05Alok Kanojia?

  The one refuge we used to have when it comes to pornography, whether it's ethically produced or non ethically produced, is that there's no way that this person is ever going to pay attention to me. I'm just consuming something. But now. Now I can interact with someone. Someone can send me a DM. Hey, thank you for watching my video and jerking off. That makes me so happy, right?

• 38:26Speaker 02

  But you know it's an AI bot, right?

• 38:28Steven Bartlett?

  Sometimes it's a

• 38:29Alok Kanojia?

  So, so I know it's an AI bot, but I am so ashamed of myself that, you know, take whatever water is given to you in the desert. I am so alone. I'm, I feel so bad about myself. And there's a chance, right? There's a chance it's not an AI bot.

• 38:45Speaker 02

  The real problem is that we are not speaking about sex. We are not speaking about intimacy. People don't have the sex education and they are lost and they are human beings. They have this drive and this need and we had it in all cultures, right?

• 39:01Steven Bartlett?

  Do you think if people had the sex education, they would still be on OnlyFans talking to what's probably, because there are big agencies now. I've seen on social media, there are big agencies of men who pretend to be these porn stars on sites like OnlyFans. And I see them bragging about their income. It's this big thing on Twitter at the moment. I've made $10,000 this month pretending to be this actress, speaking to young men on OnlyFans.

• 39:25Alok Kanojia?

  Yeah. And I think the reason that men do that, part of the reason is because they know what men want to hear, right? There's a part of us that they know exactly what to say because it won't be an AI bot. It'll be this kind of person. And now what's happening is we're activating the social loneliness aspect and combining it with pornography. So now you actually have a relationship with maybe an AI bot, maybe a dude, right? But there is like some amount of genuine human interaction over the internet. So this is getting worse. And I think sex education is an excellent point. At the same time, I don't know if sex education is going to be sufficient because I think we can teach people about their bodies, but we're also seeing like a whole scale social skills atrophy where dudes don't know how to talk to girls anymore.

• 40:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, and also media. Porn is media. It's important to understand that. It's telling us messages about gender roles, how we interact, about sexuality, how our body functions, et cetera. So we have all this misinformation going on, on this online huge media of free porn. And we see women screaming in fake orgasms after four minutes of hard penetration. And as a woman, you look at her and you say, she didn't even use her fingers. What happened? You know, and you just know that something is wrong here, that this is fake. But then there's lots of men out there thinking, this is what my girlfriend should be doing.

• 40:52Speaker 02

  This is how it should work. And then they don't connect in real life.

• 40:56Steven Bartlett?

  What kind of porn do you make?

• 40:58Speaker 02

  What kind of porn do I make? I make, I make lovely porn. I make beautiful porn. I make cinematic porn. I make porn with, you know, with intentions of, of, of showing different ideas of desire and fantasy where people, I try to work with people who are connecting, who show chemistry together. I ask my performers who they want to work with. I try to team them up. I support them with a system of intimacy coordinator, talent managers, producers in the background. They take care of them, that check who they are, what they like, what kind of sexuality do they have.

• 41:40Steven Bartlett?

  But if I was a consumer of your pornography, what would I notice?

• 41:43Speaker 02

  What would you notice? Probably the great cinematography would be the first thing. You would notice kind of narratives that are erotic driven somehow, where people explore their desire and their sexuality. You would notice, um.

• 42:01Speaker 02

  You would feel very, I mean, many people tell me, they go like, Erica, but I watch your films. Is it really porn? Because they identify porn as something that is kind of tacky, ugly, kind of objectifying, etc. So suddenly, when they see people in my films having sex, coming together, and everything is kind of, you understand why they are desiring each other. And you kind of, I invite them to join this kind of erotic journey of the characters. Then they go, but that's more like, like in the cinema, in the erotic cinema.

• 42:37Steven Bartlett?

  Can I, is it fair to assume that? Because you're, from what I've heard, the pornography you produce is, has a slower story arc, which is more reflective of what-

• 42:48Speaker 02

  Sometimes.

• 42:48Steven Bartlett?

  Okay, so I'm trying to understand, because the things that you, it sounds like you might have

• 42:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 42:54Steven Bartlett?

  removed from the pornography you make

• 42:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 42:57Steven Bartlett?

  versus the pornography I'd find on one of the big tube streaming sites, the most popular videos on the tube streaming sites. It sounds like you might have put yourself at a bit of a competitive disadvantage in many respects, because those streaming sites, if their incentive is purely money-

• 43:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 43:10Steven Bartlett?

  the data is going to determine what people see.

• 43:14Speaker 02

  Uh huh.

• 43:14Steven Bartlett?

  So that's, so it feels like they've really optimized for user consumption, where you've optimized for something around ethics.

• 43:20Speaker 02

  Because I care about it. For me, the money is not the most important aspect. Why I, you know, created this company, why I'm making this. I really want to kind of send a different kind of message out to the world.

• 43:37Steven Bartlett?

  Do your content end up on those sites?

• 43:39Speaker 02

  Sometimes. Sometimes, years ago, it was taken on those sites. For example, changing the wording of it, because remember that many of these sites also, what they do- Is that they fetishize people, they use very racist language, chauvinistic language, etc. And my movies may have much softer kind of language and the way they are. So they obviously pirated them, they put them up and they changed kind of the wording for the bits. It was a very hard process to take them down, etc.

• 44:18Steven Bartlett?

  What do you think is better for someone's relationship, specifically men and women? Do you think no porn is better for their relationship? Do you think your porn is better for their relationship?

• 44:28Speaker 02

  I think it's individual. I think it's a very individual decision what works best.

• 44:34Alok Kanojia?

  Sorry. I can answer. I've never seen one of your films. I can tell you, it's her porn.

• 44:40Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 44:40Alok Kanojia?

  Better than no porn. I'm gonna go ahead and go out on a limb in saying that if you're someone who's struggling with pornography, watching an erotic film with a glass of wine with your significant other is a great way to transition from bite-sized, fast-food, calorie-dense, jiggly, slippery, loud porn to, like, how do we rewire the brain, right? How do we move one step at a time from this to this? And because like, the word erotic seems so powerful to me. It's about anticipation. Even when we talk about, you know, differences between male and female sexuality, the lag time of parasympathetic activation and foreplay is so much more important biologically, and correct me if I'm wrong here, for women than

• 45:25Alok Kanojia?

  it is for men. I mean, we're like, kind of ready to go and we want to make it short. And so I think like, it's almost like a part of that sexual education is in understanding, okay, how can we teach men to be erotic again? Instead of these like, very like chicken nugget style, highly processed, like, this is what I think it is. Maybe watch some of Erica's films.

• 45:48Steven Bartlett?

  When we talk about watching pornography with your partner, I wonder if that is the rule of the exception to the rule, you know, because I

• 45:55Alok Kanojia?

  Yeah, I mean, so you're saying, what do we do? I think we have an erotic film watch party. Right? We have anime watch parties. We have different kinds of watch parties. Like, this thought had never occurred to me before. I'm sure it is a terrible idea.

• 46:07Steven Bartlett?

  But on that point, though, if you reduce the stigma by having these watch parties, does that then, because you cited earlier that it's a tool for emotional regulation. So when people are stressed or depressed or anxious, they seek it out. If we remove the stigma, does that increase the addiction?

• 46:23Alok Kanojia?

  So it's a great question. So I think there's, it kind of goes both ways. And what I mean by that is, see, we run into addictions when this substance becomes, or behavior, becomes one-to-one correlated with something else. So right now, the problem with pornography isn't that it, it, yeah, it's, so the problem is, if I watch pornography, and that's the only method I use to regulate my emotions, that will increase the addiction. Now, the flip side of it is also true. If the only reason I watch pornography is to regulate my emotions, that will strengthen that addictive capability. So I'll give you all just a simple example from like alcohol, right? So if I use alcohol after a hard day's work to get through the day and calm down, and

• 47:08Alok Kanojia?

  then I stop drinking for fun, whereas alcohol can be used as an emotional coping mechanism, or it can be used to celebrate a wedding, right? So the substance can be used in different ways, and the more that we use it in different ways and healthier ways, the more it actually chips away at the addiction in some cases. This is also highly individualized. So depending on your genetic predispositions and stuff like that, you know, you may not be able to drink at weddings. But we also see the opposite, which is like, you know, a huge number of people are qualified for an alcohol addiction in college, and then most of those people are able to develop healthy relationships with it. And one of the biggest changes we're seeing in addiction is that there do seem to be healthy relationships that we can develop.

• 47:53Alok Kanojia?

  I think it's about changing our relationship to the thing. Now, seeing someone naked engaging in a sexual act is not solely about getting off. It's not solely about emotional regulation. It's not solely about dopamine. It can now become a film experience that we can enjoy. So we're diversifying our relationship to the object.

• 48:15Alok Kanojia?

  I don't know if that makes sense, psychoanalytic.

• 48:16Speaker 02

  Awareness, mindfulness, understanding of...

• 48:19Alok Kanojia?

  Yeah.

• 48:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, of how you use that.

• 48:22Alok Kanojia?

  And then I think this is also great, like just the simple idea that like if dudes are watching this, recognizing that watching an erotic film with your significant other, assuming a heteronormative, a heterosexual relationship, you know, may be a great way for you to enhance your sexual experience. You don't need dick enhancing pills or, or you know, whatever else, right? Like is that's, I'm sure Dr. Malik knows better than I do, but in the majority of the, no, I meant more of your...

• 48:52Speaker 02

  I didn't think that, but okay.

• 48:54Alok Kanojia?

  No, no. So like, you know, my understanding from med school, right? So back when I was doing urology and I worked with some things like vaginismus and stuff like that, is you know, the majority of the female nerve endings are, are, you know, at the front end of the vagina. And if you get all the way back to the cervix, that's like painful. So you don't actually need a gigantic penis. I was trying to think about whether I should use some other word, but you know.

• 49:18Speaker 02

  Go ahead.

• 49:19Alok Kanojia?

  And so to help like, you know, and if men are the ones who are primarily having this addictive problem, then let's call it what it is, which is help men realize that sexual pleasure, engaging in a relationship, that pornography can be a force for good and doesn't necessarily have to be evil. But, and maybe like erotic film moves us in that direction. And like, I just gotta say, man, like my degenerate male brain is kind of telling me like, you know, watching an erotic film for an hour and a half could be the best and easiest foreplay that I could ever do.

• 49:51Speaker 04

  Would be a lot easier. Yeah. Pretty quick. But I would say, the other thing I've been thinking about while we've been talking about this is we don't talk about erotic audio literature or erotic books, which is more commonly used by women, but we don't stigmatize that. Like women are like, oh, I love these books and I read them all the time. And nobody is sitting here saying like, it's bad. I don't know. Thoughts on that?

• 50:13Speaker 02

  Because it's not naked bodies. I guess here the main problem again is back to, to our bodies. We are somehow ashamed of our bodies, of our nakedness, of our sexuality.

• 50:25Speaker 02

  I mean, women can show nipples online, we know that. You can, I mean, I'm heavily censured. I can't show anything on my accounts. My, my social media accounts are cut off all the time. It's impossible to grow.

• 50:40Steven Bartlett?

  Do you think pornography should be banned on social media, Dr. K?

• 50:44Alok Kanojia?

  Should pornography be banned on social media?

• 50:46Speaker 02

  Yes, pornography should be banned. I can answer that. I'm, I'm, I'm making it. I definitely think it should be banned, but I don't, that, that, that explicit images should be banned. But the right to discuss about it, to talk about it, to give sexual advice or to, you know, discuss different topics around sexuality. We should be allowed to do that. We should be allowed.

• 51:14Steven Bartlett?

  Well, we're allowed to do that.

• 51:15Speaker 02

  No, I get, I get banned too.

• 51:17Steven Bartlett?

  Really? Because this doesn't get banned.

• 51:18Speaker 02

  Maybe you are allowed. YouTube is different.

• 51:21Steven Bartlett?

  Twitter's fine, Instagram's fine, YouTube's fine.

• 51:24Speaker 02

  Instagram, Instagram. I have, I have TED Talks that are censured. So only people who are over eighteen and have an account online have access to watch, watch them. And it's me talking. Yeah, no, it definitely, there is definitely limitations.

• 51:41Steven Bartlett?

  The, the thing that we've noticed is your video just doesn't appear in search in the same way, but they still recommend the video. So when we had, for example, Andrew Huberman on a couple of weeks ago, and he talked about pornography, because porn was in the title and the thumbnail, the video got huge recommendations by the algorithm. But if you typed in Andrew Huberman, it would not come up. Until we took the word porn out, you type in Andrew Huberman and it comes up. So that's anything we've noticed, but we've been quite surprised actually by.

• 52:07Alok Kanojia?

  Yeah, I, I think it's so cool that like, you know, you asked me that question and she jumped in with an answer. No, no, I think it's good. I, I think it's like, because you asked, I mean, I think that's the value of this, right? Because my, I, I don't feel nearly as passionate. I mean, you asked her the question, you know, is it, which of these is the best? And I jumped in with an answer. I was like, this is clear to me. And, and I, I think just a couple of things that I just want to touch on. The first is that. You know, what Dr. Molik was saying about, you know, audio literature, like erotic fiction or romance novels, right? So I think it's harder to commoditize that, which goes back to Erica's point of, of, you know, like, some things are more likely to be turned into fast food. So I think that erotic literature, it's like harder to do that.

• 52:50Alok Kanojia?

  I also do think that going back to this earlier point of like, you know, men are epidemiologically more vulnerable to addiction. I think it's more complicated than that. And it just, psychological hurt or problems manifest in men as addiction and look different in women when it emerges. So I think it's kind of like, you know, so we're sort of seeing a difference in addictive quality. It's easier to commoditize more sensory organs. So I think that's an important point. And I think in terms of, you know, should it be banned or not? Like, I don't know. So I work kind of like more at the individual level and arguably some at scale. But like, one of the key things is, you know, I have some ideas about what should be done, but I'm not too sure about that.

• 53:33Alok Kanojia?

  I'm curious, you know, I don't know, like.

• 53:36Speaker 02

  No, but I'm saying it basically because it's open for kids again. This is why I'm saying if we're having social media and it's for people 18 and above, then we're talking about another thing. But go to Twitter, or it's not called Twitter anymore. The X, go there. It's full of porn.

• 53:56Steven Bartlett?

  It is.

• 53:57Speaker 04

  It is.

• 53:57Steven Bartlett?

  It is full of porn. You can accidentally stumble across porn. I was saying this to my partner a couple of weeks ago. I said, look at how Twitter's changed. And I said, watch this. Scroll down my timeline. And I know there's algorithms if I dwell on something more often, then it's going to show me more. But I scrolled down.

• 54:12Steven Bartlett?

  I scrolled down, I was like, look, porn. And I was like, oh, look, she's taking her clothes off. Scroll, scroll, scroll.

• 54:16Alok Kanojia?

  I didn't realize it was nudity.

• 54:18Speaker 04

  It didn't happen. I've actually not seen it, but I've had many people who tell me that it comes up on their feed all the time.

• 54:24Steven Bartlett?

  Recent change to the algorithm, which has prioritized again viewership time. So if you want to want people to dwell longer, show them video, extreme video, people being shot, someone being hit by a car, fights, pornography.

• 54:35Alok Kanojia?

  Wow.

• 54:35Steven Bartlett?

  You increase your dwell time, you increase your advertising. And this is just how incentives play out. So much of the discussion we've had today and much of my like. Why I refer to it sometimes as being idealistic, because sometimes it can sound like just give them broccoli. When actually, if you leave them to their own devices, no one's going to want broccoli. They're going to take the cookies if the cookies are available. And if you equate this to food, we did put labels on food to say, look, this has got this much calories in it. We put a sugar tax on sugar in the UK. We, on cigarettes, we say, if you smoke these cigarettes, this is what's going to happen to your lungs. And we put explicit images of how your lungs will get, you know, cancers and things like this. Should we be doing something similar with pornography? Because part of me goes, just, you know, saying we should just give them broccoli, this kind of like erotic, different, they're not going to, they're not going to eat it.

• 55:21Speaker 02

  No, but, but, but also, again, adults, I think they have the right to watch pornography, whatever kind of pornography it is, as long as it's legal and, and, and well done. I wish all pornography would be ethically produced. I know that the industry is working towards more standards, et cetera. Because, you know, we have been as a society, talking about it. They don't have much of a choice, because if they don't go that way.

• 55:50Steven Bartlett?

  Should we, should we tell them about the harms of pornography at the point of consumption like we do with cigarettes?

• 55:56Speaker 02

  It's a bit difficult, maybe. I, I think we should, we should talk about what could happen.

• 56:03Steven Bartlett?

  Like gambling?

• 56:04Speaker 02

  What effects, like, like gambling, like, but, but this also happens, you, you've been talking about gaming a lot, you know? There's a way of gaming and healthy gaming, right? There's a way of video games that is too much and not too much.

• 56:20Steven Bartlett?

  What do you think, Dr. Kim?

• 56:21Alok Kanojia?

  Yeah, so I mean, I think it's, it's a great question. So I've got like, um, a couple of different things. So I'm going to, about to contradict myself. So the first is that we know that, you know, putting warning labels on things does move things in the right direction. But I'd love to just share a story. So when I was a medical student, didn't really understand much about medicine or psychiatry or humans. You know, I had a patient who came in and was smoking. And so I came in and I was like, you know, he came in, I was like a first year medical student. So I was like, I'm gonna be a doctor one day. And so this person comes in, I'm like, sir, do you know that smoking is dangerous? It can cause lung cancer, it can do this, it can do this, it can do this. So the person's like, yeah, you know, like, that sounds bad. I don't want to look at it. And I was like, great, we're gonna give you like a prescription to help you quit and you can get a nicotine patch. And like, I was like, I'm gonna be a doctor one day.

• 57:05Alok Kanojia?

  So a month later, guy comes in and like, I ask him, how's the quitting smoking going? And he's like, well, I'm still smoking. And then I was like, I don't think you understand, man. It increases risk of heart disease and stroke and all these kinds of things. Like, it's gonna like, do all this kind of stuff. And he's like, yeah, oh, that's bad. I don't want any of that stuff. And I was like, cool. So like, you're gonna quit, right? And he's like, yeah. And so I, then he comes in and I, comes in the next month, he still hasn't quit. And I started to try to figure out what's going on, right? So one of the key things that we learned is that if you want someone to eat broccoli instead of cookies,

• 57:38Alok Kanojia?

  telling them that cookies are unhealthy for you isn't good enough. So we need, generally speaking, when you look at recovery from addiction and behavioral change, you have to have a good enough reason to do it. So I was still blunt and I figured this out and talked to my, my preceptor and stuff. And then I asked this person, so what's important to you? And he's like, oh, you know, I love my daughters. And then I asked them a very bad question. And I was like, when you, and he was like, I was like, what, you know, tell me about your daughters. And he was like, you know, I can't wait. Like, I'll know, I can die a happy person once I've walked them down the aisle and I, they're married and stuff like that. And then I asked him a question, I was like, when you walk down the aisle, do you want to be carrying an oxygen tank behind you? And he was like, what? I was like, if you keep smoking, that's what's gonna happen. Or maybe you'll be in a wheelchair.

• 58:21Alok Kanojia?

  Right? So I was a first year medical student, kind of brutal, but that actually sunk in. You have to connect with people with what they care about. That is still a warning though, isn't it? You've put a warning on that. But it's, it's, it's a little different, right? So, so it's individualized, but even now, when we, you know, I'm, I stream on Twitch and I try to get people to stop playing video games, which is like holding an AA meeting in a bar. And what I've discovered is I'm with you. We've lost a lot of faith in humanity. If you give them a broccoli and a cookie, they're gonna take a cookie. But I I'm still hopeful. I think that we do see the number one search is how do I quit porn? There's a lot of energy and desire to do it. They just don't have a path. And I think one of these very simple things is like emphasizing an erotic film and telling

• 59:05Alok Kanojia?

  people, hey, if you're lonely, hey, if you're having trouble finding a relationship, you know, hey, if you're if you have a problem with premature ejaculation, or you're having difficulty engaging in a sexual act and can't achieve orgasm, what you need to do is slow it down. Don't make sex a three-minute, jiggly slippery experience. Slow it down. Watch an erotic film. Reprogram your brain. Like, I bet you money that if we somehow figured out, if we told people, you can reprogram your brain by watching erotic film, and we could say that scientifically, that would be incredibly successful. Because I think people are hungry for this, right? They're hungry for what we were biologically designed to do, which is connect and have fulfilling sexual relationships.

• 59:49Steven Bartlett?

  What's your take on that?

• 59:50Speaker 04

  Yeah, I think that that's that would be helpful, absolutely. Because I think telling someone to go cold turkey from having something that they do derive pleasure from, right? Even if they're even if they have addictive potential, addictive personalities towards that behavior, then giving them something else that they can still derive pleasure from and have the benefits of orgasm and have the benefits of feeling that desire and enjoyment is is a really great way. When you tell someone you take something away that they've used as a crutch potentially, and they have nothing to replace it with. And, you know, we've talked about this before, giving people a purpose. A lot of times, people don't have purpose. And so they're they're like, they have nothing else to do. And they're like, oh, I'll just do this thing because I'm bored. And that's one of the reasons people watch porn is because they're bored.

• 1:00:34Speaker 04

  And so you give them a purpose, something else to do, whether it's an erotic film or actually a purpose in their life, maybe it's meeting people outside in the real world, which would be even better. That would help our our issues with not getting married, having high divorce rates, and not having kids, right? But like, I think those would be great solutions if we could come up with ways to get people to either find a substitute or find purpose.

• 1:00:56Steven Bartlett?

  Interestingly, there's clearly a two-way relationship with purpose, porn, motivation, etc. So it we giving them a purpose, one might say, well, then we stop porn, because then they'll have more motivation to put their shoes on.

• 1:01:08Alok Kanojia?

  Yeah, so I think, you know, if you look at, there's one study that showed the two strongest variables with pornography addiction are a sense of meaninglessness in life. And I forgot what the other variable is, maybe early age of exposure. But, so I think it's kind of spot on, right? So when I don't have a life that's worth living, what happens? My body and my brain become squeeze bottles of dopamine. Because what is the joy of life? So I try to just extract as much dopamine as I can from my brain so that I have some joy in the day, some kind of pleasure. And then I watch more of this mass-produced, supernormal stimulus pornography because that squeezes more dopamine out of my neurotransmitters.

• 1:01:50Alok Kanojia?

  And the more that my life becomes that, now there's a moral component. Now I feel ashamed. Now, if I remember looking at some statistics on online dating profiles and like saying that you're a dude who watches porn is like an instant no. But if I'm watching pornography, it's going to sap me of the motivation to pursue my purpose. Absolutely. So if I'm extracting all my dopamine through watching pornography, I'm going to have none left for behavioral reinforcement from other activities. So reading books becomes not as much fun. Going to a park becomes not as much fun. So it's absolutely this vicious cycle where meaninglessness, I have no reason to do anything all day, so I might as well watch some porn, not a erotic film. So we cancel porn, then?

• 1:02:33Speaker 02

  No. So, please. Let us have it.

• 1:02:39Alok Kanojia?

  Yeah, I don't know, I mean-

• 1:02:40Speaker 02

  The monster can.

• 1:02:42Alok Kanojia?

  The majority of my income and my brand would collapse if you started banning social porn.

• 1:02:47Speaker 04

  No, I mean, I think there, I think we have to, I mean, I think there's a lot of things we've talked about, but I think sexual education, I think understanding that, you know- Explain to younger kids what they're watching, right? I think adults have a little bit more, their brains are fully developed. They understand what they're watching. They know it's a produced product. They presumably have already gone through the process of finding a job and doing other things that give them purpose. Maybe they have children, maybe they have a family, right? But, but I think it's really in that young generation, they're finding themselves. Maybe they're going out and they're not finding a partner because we know that there's less people coupling, there's higher mismatch of expectations. We've talked about that too, in terms of dating.

• 1:03:31Speaker 04

  And so, you know, it's, it's very easy for those people, when they're still trying to figure out what to do with their lives, to fall into something like that. And I think if we really focus on that generation, I think, and that's a generation that probably shouldn't be watching porn anyways, right? And, and I think that would make huge, a huge difference.

• 1:03:48Speaker 02

  And help parents, because parents are really, really worried.

• 1:03:51Steven Bartlett?

  How to do it?

• 1:03:53Speaker 02

  I mean, you, you, there's many way of kind of, of, of, of starting it, but they, what they need to know really is that you are there for them, you are open. If they have any kind of, of doubts, situations, you are gonna be there for them. This is not a subject that you are gonna, you know, bail out because you feel too ashamed or you can't handle difficult questions. I would tell parents, educate yourself. If you're having kids, you're gonna have to talk to them about sex.

• 1:04:23Steven Bartlett?

  At what age?

• 1:04:24Speaker 02

  If you didn't get education, what age? You need to start when they're really, really young. You need to start when they're learning language. I mean, young kids today, many of them, they don't know the difference between a vagina and a vulva. Even Billie Eilish, in an interview, came out saying that she wanted to put her face in, in people's vaginas. And you go, what? What happened? You're talking about vulva, girl, you know?

• 1:04:47Speaker 04

  Yeah. No, it has to start from, I completely agree with everything you're saying. I have kids, I've talked to them about sex. I think you, you have to start early with at least knowing the anatomy, right? Knowing what their body parts are and what the body parts are of the opposite gender, so that they know that they're different and, and all that stuff. And then honestly, being open, they're gonna ask you questions. Like, kids are curious. So they'll come home and be like, what's this? What's that? And not being like, oh, no, no, I'm not going to talk about that. It's just like, OK, yeah, let's have a conversation about it. And let's talk about it and realize that it's not going to be one conversation. It's going to be like throughout their development as they become older, you're going to maybe introduce more topics or they may have a question for you. And just never shaming them. And that can come even early, right? Kids are masturbating, babies are masturbating like as a youngster.

• 1:05:32Speaker 04

  That's a soothing behavior, right? And so sometimes you'll see your child doing it. You don't want to shame them, right? Because that's already setting up that stage of shame. So sort of a lot being like, OK, that's, that's fine that you're doing that. But maybe do that in private and that's something that you do in private. But, you know, I think it's really important to have these conversations and it's uncomfortable. It's going to be uncomfortable and know that it's going to be uncomfortable. But like, we have a duty because they're not going to learn it at school in the right way or enough in school.

• 1:05:59Alok Kanojia?

  Yeah, so I completely agree with what they said. So it's really interesting because the number one question. So when we started talking, working with gamers, what happened very quickly is parents started reaching out and they're like, hey, I have a son who's got this problem, usually a son, sometimes a daughter, 70, 30. And how do I talk to them? So we actually started doing a study in 2020, 2020 or 2021, where we started developing different kinds of techniques and measuring what worked best. So now we have four years of data. A lot of those findings went into the book about how to raise a healthy gamer, which is actually all about conversational techniques for parents about how to talk to their kids. So for four years, here are the biggest takeaways. So that book is like, it's conversational techniques about video game addiction.

• 1:06:44Alok Kanojia?

  But we find that this works really well for pornography, too. So the first is, like Dr. Malik said, multiple conversations. So the first mistake that parents make is that they think that they have to get it all in in one conversation.

• 1:06:56Speaker 04

  The sex talk, no, that we all heard about.

• 1:06:58Alok Kanojia?

  Right, the sex talk. No, it's, it's lots of them. Second thing, start earlier than you think you need to.

• 1:07:03Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:07:04Alok Kanojia?

  So one of the biggest principles that we learn in, in, you know, medicine is that you don't have end of life conversations when someone is dying. You have to have the conversation before it's an issue. So I think we were talking about, you said, what, 64% of people get exposed to pornography at the age of 11, right?

• 1:07:20Steven Bartlett?

  Accidentally.

• 1:07:21Alok Kanojia?

  Accidentally, still, but so that what that tells, parents think, oh, I like, I can push this off and wait until they're 14 or 15. And of course, my beta is not going to watch. My, oh, he's good, he's so good, not my beta.

• 1:07:34Speaker 04

  We don't let them do that.

• 1:07:35Alok Kanojia?

  Right? Yeah.

• 1:07:37Speaker 04

  Not in our house.

• 1:07:38Alok Kanojia?

  Yeah, and I noticed you said you talk to your kids about sex. Have you talked to them about porn?

• 1:07:41Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:07:41Alok Kanojia?

  Okay.

• 1:07:42Speaker 04

  My older one, my older one.

• 1:07:42Alok Kanojia?

  Nice. Good job.

• 1:07:43Speaker 04

  Thank you.

• 1:07:45Alok Kanojia?

  Your beta is going to be so good. So I think it's going to be multiple conversations, start earlier than you need to. And then there are a couple of really nice techniques that you can use. The first is asking open-ended questions and not about, do you watch porn? It can start with, hey, are you familiar with what pornography is? Do you know what it is? What do you understand about pornography? Another really good evidence-based technique, which has been shown to be effective for talking about drugs, is, do you have friends who watch porn? Do you have friends, do you know people or kids in your school watching this? Yes or no? What do you think about that? So oftentimes, you don't want to ask the kid directly, you want to ask about what's happening around you. And then you can ask them, what do you think about that? Do you have questions?

• 1:08:30Alok Kanojia?

  So make yourself a resource and signal to them that, hey, we can have this conversation.

• 1:08:37Speaker 02

  And it's preparing them for the world, really. It's giving them the tools to be able to manage situations that will come up. Because sex is not easy, and they're gonna be in difficult moments. And if they have been prepared, they're gonna know better how to respond to those moments, you know?

• 1:08:57Steven Bartlett?

  If they're watching that pornography, though, the type that's available on those tube streaming sites, do you believe that it will cause or lead to a rise in violence between men and women? Because when I look at some of the statistics around this, nearly one in three porn videos contains physical violence, and almost 90% of the most famous porn scenes are violent scenes. 18 to 21-year-olds, out of 18 to 21-year-olds, 79% had seen pornography involving sexual violence. When they were children and almost fifty percent of young people say girls expect sex to involve physical aggression such as airway restriction. And according to a study in two thousand and twenty four, of eighteen to thirty five year olds,

• 1:09:38Steven Bartlett?

  they found that fifty seven percent of young people aged from eighteen to thirty five had been strangled themselves during sex and fifty one percent had been strangled at least once during sex. And my last stat on this is the BBC revealed that thirty eight percent of women under the age of forty have experienced unwanted slapping, choking and gagging during consensual sex. And forty two percent of these women said they felt pressured or coerced into doing it. So we can allow people to watch pornography, but is there not a risk that at a very young age, at the age of eleven, we're going to learn that sex is a violent act and that's going to make us more violent? Going to start with you.

• 1:10:16Speaker 04

  Yeah, this is a really important discussion and I think, you know, I actually spoke to Debbie Herbinick, who leads a lot of the studies on strangulation. And so basically what they found is that very commonly, young people, college age students, are having strangulation or during intercourse or during foreplay. It's become so common that it's almost like kissing, right? Like this is something that is so common and often consent is not being discussed or it's like, hey, can I do this? Yeah, it's all right, but it's not like a real discussion. And as you guys all know, and especially asphyxiation can lead to loss of oxygen to the brain and and sort of a whole host of things. And so I think ultimately that is a concern for sure in terms of, you know, we have ratings in movies for a reason, right?

• 1:10:58Speaker 04

  Like we don't show our kids like The Boys, for example, on Netflix, right? Because it's very violent. And so similarly, we would like to have ratings on pornography and they shouldn't have access to it, but sometimes they see it now. Uh, yeah, that is a concern. I don't know exactly how to rectify that. Maybe you have some thoughts.

• 1:11:15Steven Bartlett?

  Is that because we want it though? Earlier on, you said porn is there because we we want it. So I'm thinking, isn't strangulation important because that's the type of porn that people want?

• 1:11:24Speaker 04

  So there is, you know, some people who derive pleasure from, you know, from a temporary occlusion of breath, right? And so there is some people who enjoy that erotically, but that doesn't mean that that's universal. And again, it's fantasy. So just because you watch something on pornography doesn't mean that you should be doing it. It's a fantasy. It's not real life. And that's in a, hopefully, a controlled, safe situation where they're producing that pornography.

• 1:11:52Speaker 02

  But I think it's very important when we're starting to talk about sexual violence towards women, that we understand that that doesn't come from porn, that existed long before porn. Sexual violence towards women is a systemic problem we have in our society. And we all know that the most dangerous place for a woman is her own home. It's her own husband or her boyfriend or her relatives around her, et cetera. So the way I see it, porn reflects the values we have in our society. I think I see porn a bit as a mirror

• 1:12:34Speaker 02

  of many of the values in our society. Amongst them, sexual violence towards women. But then it's also true, obviously, that nowadays, as porn has become more popular, we're getting into a bigger problem, right? Where their attitudes are also provoked by what they are seeing. So now it's not that easy anymore to say that porn is just a reflection. Because obviously, they also learn from what they see. And then they go into their own lives and they try to reproduce what they have learned online.

• 1:13:12Steven Bartlett?

  So in that case, then, if I watch violent pornography, when I meet my partner at 15, 16, 18, 21, I'm gonna have this expectation that pornography looks... I'm gonna think sex has to be performed in this way, where I choke them, I hit them, I spit, or whatever, whatever. Because that's the only sexual education I've had and I got it from Twitter, for example. So that, in that case, it will lead to sexual violence, unwanted sexual violence.

• 1:13:35Speaker 02

  Not necessarily it will lead to that. It might lead to a curiosity of trying it out.

• 1:13:43Steven Bartlett?

  Because 42% of women said that they have been...

• 1:13:48Steven Bartlett?

  Felt they were pressured or coerced into slapping, choking, or being gagged.

• 1:13:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, and I think many women also feel coerced just to have regular sex, many times in their own marriages.

• 1:14:00Steven Bartlett?

  What do you think, Dr. Kay?

• 1:14:02Alok Kanojia?

  So, so many thoughts, and I agree that this is a very important discussion. So like, I was kind of curious about this because I've noticed there's this rise in like asphyxiation. So the first question that I asked is like, why are people doing this? So what I found is there's, once again, not randomized controlled trials of we're going to take 100 people, split them into two groups and you're gonna, you know. And so the first thing is the physiology is actually like fascinating. So the, I know this is gonna sound random, we don't really know exactly what's going on, but. So it's really interesting because if you look at states of meditation, right? So these are states of like bliss. So something changes in our brain when we're in a meditative state. Now what the hell does that have to do with asphyxiation? So one of the most common trends of esoteric and deeply spiritual meditation practices are a very low respiratory rate.

• 1:14:48Alok Kanojia?

  Right, so one practice that I did had a respiratory rate of one breath every eight minutes. So that's like, you know, the regular respiratory rate is 13 to 14 times a minute. So what we know is that when the brain runs out of oxygen, as long as we don't damage it, and that's the big problem with asphyxiation, is that there's no consent, there's no preparation, people feel coerced into it. What we know in meditation is that a high CO2 level and a low O2 level cause alterations in the brain that will probably lead to something like a psychedelic experience, a blissful experience, things like that. So when, when we're talking about asphyxiation, something is going on in the brain where we're altering the state of consciousness. We're cutting off airflow to the, the brain. It can be lethal, it can be damaging, permanently damaging,

• 1:15:33Alok Kanojia?

  and something can change in the brain that will enhance the experience of sexuality that is experience, that, that people have. So somewhere along the way, people got into this idea. I think the other thing, the other basic trend that we're seeing is that. We're getting sexually desensitized. So if you look at, this is not just sexual, but like if you look at pornography, what tends to happen is what I find arousing will drift over time. So I need to watch more and more hardcore porn to get the same level of arousal. So there's also something that shows, there's, you know, studies that show that if you're vulnerable to an addiction, you're also vulnerable to risk-taking behavior.

• 1:16:16Alok Kanojia?

  So when you take, when you engage in risk, what happens is like, I don't know if this kind of makes sense, but you know, I had a patient once who was working in a jail and he was telling me about when he commits a crime. And what he loved, he has a really bad ADHD. And what he loves about committing a crime is he is completely dialed in. Because of the risk, he has a survival reason to pay attention to every single detail. He is so focused on the task. And we know that things like flow states involve an intense amount of focus. And so when we're taking a risk, it's activating our dopamine way more. We feel, when I've talked to patients who engage in this kind of behavior, they feel the most alive because of the danger.

• 1:16:57Alok Kanojia?

  So there's a lot of stuff that is being activated if it's done in a healthy way. Now, there's all kinds of unhealthy stuff going on. I think the statistics kind of speak for themselves. Like my gut check is that while everyone, it doesn't necessarily increase the risk for everyone, I think we're seeing the intersectionality of a couple of things. So the first thing is that men are angry. So we have incels, we have school shooters. You know, men are resentful towards women. So I think part of the reason we're seeing this violence against women in the pornography is because there's an angry incel who's home alone, who doesn't believe they're ever going to have sex, believes that women are gatekeeping this.

• 1:17:39Alok Kanojia?

  And so the masculine predatory systemic, "I'm gonna teach this woman a lesson." She doesn't get to say no to me. So these kinds of feelings are being, someone has figured out on a tube site that if I give men this fantasy, they are gonna watch it more and more.

• 1:17:59Speaker 02

  And this is what we see, punish fucking of women. We see punished fucking on women all the time. I'm gonna destroy you. I'm gonna, you know, banging and smashing and, and.

• 1:18:10Steven Bartlett?

  But you're saying that's a social problem, not a porn industry problem.

• 1:18:13Alok Kanojia?

  Well, so I, I think what the porn industry is, is doing, yeah, the porn industry is figuring out. This is what all technology is doing.

• 1:18:19Steven Bartlett?

  The machine learning is figuring out.

• 1:18:20Alok Kanojia?

  Machine learning is figuring it out. So as you cited some statistic about, you know, sexual activity, like more virgins than ever before, more sexual frustration than ever before, more frustration with life than ever before. And so let's give you this extreme thing that's check tech, checking a couple of different boxes.

• 1:18:38Steven Bartlett?

  But interesting within this, I, I heard something which is you basically have described softcore pornography as a gateway drug to hardcore pornography because the brain gets desensitized. It looks for a bigger kick like it was heroin or something else. You need a bigger, more extreme experience to get the same high. So if we start people on erotic porn, the broccoli, they're eventually going to get to the cookie.

• 1:19:01Alok Kanojia?

  That's a great assumption. I think it's different because I think the desensitization hap, it's different circuits of the brain. There's a patience to it. There's an emotional component to it. So I don't think, I, I think you're right that if we talk about squeezing out dopamine, could it be a gateway drug? Absolutely. But part of the reason that in this moment, I think it could be part of the solution is erotic is moving away from dopamine. Erotic is not about the orgasm. The dopamine is the orgasm. Erotic is about everything else except for the orgasm. So even when I'm working with patients who have unhealthy relationships with sexuality, the point is let's move away from orgasm. Let's recognize that the sexual act, and speaking of the orgasm gap, if you're a dude,

• 1:19:45Alok Kanojia?

  you can have sex and not have an orgasm and it can still be a positive experience. And this kind of goes back to the sexual violence. What really scares me is that as people watch this stuff, for whatever reason, what's going to happen is they are going to start to think, and I've seen this a lot recently. It's amazing how much this has spiked, how normalized this has become. Oh, I thought women liked it. This is what I'm supposed to do. Right? And then you feel coercion from the side of women. I think it's interesting, right? I, I wouldn't be surprised if, I wouldn't be surprised, and this is a bias in the literature. We ask, do you feel women, as a woman, do you feel coerced into doing this? I don't think we ever ask men, do you feel pressured into doing this? We don't even ask men what they feel coerced.

• 1:20:28Speaker 02

  Because there are not that many masculine scripts either of having sex. There's basically one.

• 1:20:34Alok Kanojia?

  That's a great point.

• 1:20:35Speaker 02

  And it's, you know, the penetrative sex machine. That's the script.

• 1:20:42Steven Bartlett?

  Why is that? That must be a reflection of the demand.

• 1:20:46Speaker 04

  Well, I think it's a reflection of who's making the content and who's been making even traditional media, right? Like movies where you see how people have intimate acts, even though they're not showing the act, right? It's always penis and vagina. Within minutes, the female orgasms and that's it, right? That's the whole thing. That's not real life and it's been made by men.

• 1:21:09Steven Bartlett?

  I think it's this two-way dance really. So I think there's, there's a certain demand that exists because of whatever's going on in the world. And then we meet that demand with conversation, which enhances sometimes the demand for that content or subject. And it's this kind of two-way dance where there's more content about it. So the demand increases and people get more interested in it and all sees rise, you know?

• 1:21:32Alok Kanojia?

  Yeah, absolutely. So I think that that's exactly what's going on here. There's some preset demand, but right now the problem is that the only people who are fulfilling that demand are making, you know, highly processed, calorically dense, you know, orgasm masturbation focused pornography. And we even see this in like other dimensions. Like if you look at literature right now, you know, the fantasy genre has so, has an injection of female authors. So fantasy has changed completely in the last 10 or 15 years. YA has changed completely in the last 10 or 15 years. I think maybe what we need is dudes writing romance novels.

• 1:22:07Speaker 02

  And consumers, they always have power. Remember that people who are watching porn, they are part of this industry. They are voting with their attention, their time, their clicks online.

• 1:22:19Speaker 02

  Hopefully with their money, because everybody should pay for their porn, because porn should not be out there for free for anyone. But it's, it's, people are working in this. They are, you know, they have lives, they have kids, they have to pay their rent, their food on the table, their schools, et cetera. We have to respect the work of those people.

• 1:22:42Alok Kanojia?

  Sorry, I couldn't help but laugh. I just realized you said porn shouldn't be free. We live in a world where food is not a human right, water is not a human right, healthcare is not a human right, but porn is free for everybody.

• 1:22:52Steven Bartlett?

  Is porn free? Because it's behind a different advertising. It's just an advertising model, which means you are the, you are the product. Like, so if you're consuming adverts, you're basically paying with your attention. It's just a different currency we're paying with. There's no porn that's free, if you think about it.

• 1:23:07Alok Kanojia?

  Fair enough.

• 1:23:07Steven Bartlett?

  Do you know what I mean?

• 1:23:07Alok Kanojia?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:23:08Steven Bartlett?

  You're paying with your attention. Either way, you're looking at an advert beforehand, you're scrolling past a display advert on the right hand side of the page, or even on Twitter. If you're on Twitter, you're consuming ads when you stumble across porn. It's a different advertising model.

• 1:23:18Speaker 02

  But not the right people are getting the money.

• 1:23:23Speaker 04

  The people making the content, you mean?

• 1:23:24Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 1:23:26Steven Bartlett?

  I mean.

• 1:23:26Speaker 02

  It's the dealers who are getting it.

• 1:23:29Steven Bartlett?

  When you look at OnlyFans, interestingly, 6.6 billion they made this year, and about 5 billion of that went to the creators.

• 1:23:37Steven Bartlett?

  And that's, you know, OnlyFans has been a real phenomenon in culture.

• 1:23:41Speaker 02

  I mean, OnlyFans, I mean, if we look at the porn industry. So it changed a lot. I've been in this industry now for 20 years. When I started, you know, there was sites online, pay sites, tubes didn't exist, et cetera. And then when OnlyFans came around and when they become big in the pandemic, they changed again the rules for this industry a bit. And I do think that it's better that the people who are making it are receiving their, you know, customers directly, et cetera, and that they can make decisions for themselves. I think it's a good part of the industry that it works that way.

• 1:24:26Steven Bartlett?

  NoFap, a term I only came across a couple of weeks ago. This idea of noFap, which is, I believe, and you clearly know much more about this than I do, Dr. Kay, but I believe that the term is, it's proposing a solution to the pornography challenge that some people have, where you completely abstain from watching pornography and/or masturbating at all. Rena, if I recall, and I don't want to mischaracterize your opinion here, but I think when we spoke the first time on the podcast, you made the case that masturbation does have positive impacts. So what is your view on this idea of noFap?

• 1:25:02Speaker 04

  Yeah, so I think the movement, so the idea of retaining from or abstaining from masturbation or watching pornography is a very individual one, and it may have benefits for some people in terms of they may, because if they're using these things in a negative way, abstaining from them may allow them to have more control over other portions of their life. But a lot of people will misinform people and say, oh, you're going to have a higher testosterone, you're going to have all these physiologic changes, which have not been borne out in literature. There's like a very small study looking at men who abstained from ejaculation for 21 days that saw a very small, minute increase in testosterone, like 10 guys.

• 1:25:44Speaker 04

  So it's not generalizable, it's never been repeated, and testosterone varies as it is quite significantly over days and throughout the day, and you know, one day to the next. So ultimately, there's no evidence to support the fact that abstaining from anything like masturbation is actually going to have a benefit. More likely than not, either you're going to have a nocturnal emission, or your body's going to absorb that semen. So it doesn't really change what's going on physiologically.

• 1:26:09Steven Bartlett?

  Is there an impact on fertility if I masturbate or don't masturbate?

• 1:26:12Speaker 04

  Yes, so fertility, we do see that if you abstain for about five days, up to five days, you're going to see some improvement in the semen volume potentially, and also some characteristics of the sperm. But above and beyond that, you start seeing DNA damage, and so that can actually be negative if you abstain for too long.

• 1:26:34Steven Bartlett?

  So the sperm are effectively dying in the

• 1:26:37Speaker 04

  Well, you're seeing like mutations, so they're not as effective, they're not going to die necessarily, but they're not going to create a healthy fetus or embryo.

• 1:26:47Alok Kanojia?

  Dr. Kane, no fat? That is fascinating. I didn't know that. That's really interesting. So, a couple of things to understand. So, there are a lot of traditions that abstain from sexual activity. I think we don't study those traditions very well. And I think the key thing to understand, I personally think that celibacy and abstinence from sexual activity can be incredibly powerful. And so, I think part of the, we have to remember, right? So, if we don't have any evidence for something, why do so many people believe it? So, some of it is there's a lot of bad information out there. But people, what happens on the no-fat community is that people are having some experiences and they're

• 1:27:29Alok Kanojia?

  saying, "This kind of thing changed my life." And there's so many layers to that. So, the first is that I think no-fat is kind of a way to wrestle with any kind of behavioral control. So, if we look at like, you know, people who are addicted to pornography, we talk about all of these negative impacts of this cycle of, "I don't have anything to do any day, anything today, so I'm gonna jerk off and then I have no meaning, no purpose, no dopamine, so I'm just like stuck in this cycle." So, they wanna break the cycle. And they just pick one thing. And I think just challenging yourself from a self-control perspective, I completely agree with Dr. What Malik says. There may not be a physiological thing going on here, but just challenging yourself and saying, "Hey, like, this one thing messes up my relationships, messes up my dopamine, messes up my purpose and my

• 1:28:14Alok Kanojia?

  motivation. I'm gonna take control of this and it'll change my life." So, I think if you look at it from an isolated stance of masturbation, it may not have much of an effect. We'll talk about the exception to that rule in a second in the spiritual traditions. But I think that a lot of people are just using it as a vehicle to come to terms with something challenging in their life. And they're like, they're making a commitment, right? "I'm gonna do this thing." And the benefit comes from that, maybe not any physiological thing. You know, all the stuff about testosterone and stuff, completely agree. I don't think that there's a clear thing there. But if you look at some of the meditative traditions, one of the really common things, and this is really fascinating, because this is true of meditative or religious traditions all over the world. So you'll see celibacy is a part of some of the Abrahamic religions.

• 1:28:59Alok Kanojia?

  It's part of some of the karmic religions from the East. So human beings at some point figured out that abstaining from sexual activity can have different kinds of impacts in the organism. So a couple of things that it does is it reduces our thoughts of lust, if we do it the right way. And we'll get to a couple of specific examples of what the no-fat community doesn't understand. So when I deprive myself of a particular thing, I sometimes reduce that behavioral reinforcement. So if I look at someone who's addicted to alcohol, you know, when they stop drinking alcohol at the very beginning, their desire will increase, but then 10 years later, they don't even think about it. So if you are someone who is thinking about sex constantly, and you stop engaging in

• 1:29:43Alok Kanojia?

  sexual perceptions, so remember, the thoughts in our brain come from what we perceive. This is why advertising is a thing, because an advertiser knows, if I can show you this thing, you will think about it. Now, if I'm fapping and watching pornography, I'm getting this perceptual input, which is then creating thoughts in my head. Now I'm thinking about this stuff instead of thinking about something else. So there's that layer of things, too. When I cut something off from my perception, when I break up with someone, why do I block them? Because if I watch their social media, if I get texts from them, that's going to enter my perception and control my thoughts. So they can also use it as a benefit of like thought control if I stop looking at this stuff. This has also been hijacked by, generally speaking, patriarchal structures for like,

• 1:30:28Alok Kanojia?

  you know, there's a particular religious sect of Hinduism where the priests are like, "I'm never gonna see a woman." Like, "No women are allowed in the house if I'm gonna come visit your house." Right? So this gets turned into some weird things, but... So no-fat gives us an opportunity for self-control. It gives us a chance to reduce our sensory input, which reduces our thoughts. And then there's also these meditative traditions, which say that, you know, achieving esoteric spiritual experiences, which is a lot of what the no-fat community like talks about, like they become slightly different human beings. celibacy is a part of that. Now, the key thing about the meditative traditions is that they're not taking advice from randos on the internet. So I'll give you all just one really simple example. When you do esoteric meditations, spirituality, celibacy kind of stuff,

• 1:31:13Alok Kanojia?

  it's usually accompanied in the Hindu tradition or Buddhist tradition with certain yogic postures. And one example of this is something called Siddhasan. Siddhasan is a depth pose. And literally what you do is in this pose, you place the heel of your right foot usually up against your perineum. So you put pressure on the area between your anus and your scrotum. If you're a man, it's a slightly different location if you're a woman. And then what that actually does from anatomy, I'm sure you know this better than I, correct me if I'm wrong, is that, you know, we know that the blood supply to the scrotum passes through that, right? It's on the underside. It's like in that pelvic floor region. So one of the really interesting things that I remember learning from a yogi who was a medical doctor

• 1:31:56Alok Kanojia?

  is that when we compress blood flow through the testes, like if you have gently compressed blood flow that increases over time, you're going to get less blood flow to the testes. You may get some kind of reduction in testosterone production and semen production or whatever. So there may be some physiological things that people do when they're normally like try to be celibate that allow it to be healthy in a, in a good way. So I think kind of the, the key takeaway, don't disagree with anything that Dr. Malik said. I think you've got to remember that nofap is not a surefire solution to fix all your problems. And at the same time, some people have positive experiences. Also, Dr. Malik has been emphasizing this point of it's not the same for everybody.

• 1:32:39Alok Kanojia?

  And we know that there are a couple of things, working with this community quite a bit. You know, there are a couple of things that happen about self-control, challenging yourself, setting a goal, creating purpose in your life, changing what your sensory inputs are. So you, you're not thirsty all day long and thinking about being horny and all this kind of stuff. Like sometimes you gotta kind of cut it out of your life. And so it's almost like this cold turkey kind of approach, which can sometimes work for nicotine, can sometimes work for things like sex. But I think like your mileage may vary and we don't really know exactly what's going on.

• 1:33:09Speaker 04

  Yeah, I think I'll add, I think the problem I have with it to some degree is when people are white knuckling it, right? They're really, and they're getting peer pressured into it, like you gotta stop, right? And so then they're really trying hard not to ejaculate. And so they're tensing up their pelvic floor muscles, they're developing problems because they're tensing up their pelvic floors, they're developing dysfunctions, they're getting pain with ejaculation, they're getting pain with erections, or they get so much shame when they have a nocturnal emission, for example.

• 1:33:38Steven Bartlett?

  Nocturnal emission is a nighttime ejaculation.

• 1:33:40Speaker 04

  Exactly. So they're getting so shamed by the community because they've failed, which is completely out of their physiologic control. Like you're gonna have a nocturnal emission if your body wants to have one. There's nothing you can do about it. So, you know, I think ultimately there is a lot of shame and peer pressure that can sometimes create harm in these situations. Now, if you're using it in the way Dr. Kay describes, like, that's fine. If you're deriving benefit from it, I have no problem. But I do take issue with the people who are harming themselves because they're getting a lot of pressure from the group.

• 1:34:11Alok Kanojia?

  If I can jump in for a second. So I want to emphasize this point too. So this is really weird, but people are white knuckling it, they may be making their addiction actually worse. So there's a really interesting principle in addiction where if I'm white knuckling something, like, so like, let's use the example of opioid addiction, right? So when I'm working with an opioid addict, at the very beginning, what they have is like a psychological craving, like, I wanna have an opiate so that I feel better. Mentally, I feel better, I feel euphoria. And then if I white knuckle it, what happens is things start to get worse. Then I start to go into withdrawal. And then my body is like, now I'm going into opioid withdrawal. So instead of euphoria, now I start to feel pain all over my body. And as I feel pain all over my body, then finally what happens is I crack.

• 1:34:56Alok Kanojia?

  And then I use opioids and then something really interesting happens. The body learns what it, what it has to do to you to make you use opioids again. So when you white knuckle and actually crack at the end, what we find is that your, the body jumps straight to level 10, right? So it's kind of like, we see this also with like kids and devices. Mommy, daddy, can I have an iPad? No. And then they're like, mommy, daddy, please, no. Ah, and then they start crying, then they start throwing a temper tantrum. If you give them the iPad when they throw a temper tantrum, that encourages them to throw a temper tantrum. And we see that internally, biologically, physiologically, where if you resist an addiction

• 1:35:38Alok Kanojia?

  and then you cave at the end, the body is like, hey, there's no point messing around with the early stages. Let's just go to hard withdrawal way faster. So I think it can be so harmful when people are white knuckling it. They don't realize that every time they fail, sometimes what they're actually doing is training their brain to punish them way harder so their brain can get the dopamine that it wants.

• 1:36:01Steven Bartlett?

  You talk about pornography being a substitute for relationships in society.

• 1:36:06Alok Kanojia?

  Okay.

• 1:36:07Steven Bartlett?

  Have you spoken about that? I don't want to mistrust your opinion.

• 1:36:09Alok Kanojia?

  Sure, yeah.

• 1:36:10Steven Bartlett?

  I've got a quote here.

• 1:36:11Alok Kanojia?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:36:12Steven Bartlett?

  But your experience is, has been that pornography usage is really just a powerful coping mechanism and it sort of scratches this evolutionary itch for relationships.

• 1:36:21Alok Kanojia?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:23Steven Bartlett?

  Is it therefore not a bad thing for people? I'm reflecting on that idea, which we kind of addressed at the start, but also just what I see in the comments section, which is people really seem to hate dating apps and pornography, but they also seem to use them both. And I just, as a podcast, we were really surprised the first time we had a dating app CEO on the show because I thought, oh, great episode. We learned a lot about business and how they built the app. And then I looked at the comments section and this group of people had shown up with like pitchforks and they were expressing their desperation and their feeling that these dating apps and pornography has very much ruined their lives. And so I just want to throw that out there because it's a reflection of the comments that I see.

• 1:37:04Alok Kanojia?

  Yeah, no, so I didn't say okay to try to shut you. I was just like, let's hear the rest. So, yeah, I think what, because once again, remember that the brain, every part of the brain, every neurotransmitter is involved in sexuality and relationships. So what's happening is when we, this is that, what we see is that.

• 1:37:24Alok Kanojia?

  When we use technology to activate the brain, there are parts of the brain that don't know the difference. The problem is that there are other parts of the brain that don't get activated. So this is, this is gonna get a little bit weird, but so if I think about like, you know, I'll give you all, let's just use the example of food. So when I feel hungry, I can eat something that's calorically dense, and that will satisfy my hunger. But the calorically dense food may not have nutrition. It may not have micronutrients. It may not have fiber. So when I replace something nutritious with something that tricks my body into thinking, oh, like now we're fine, that can be very damaging. So one of the things that we see with pornography is that if we look at like, you know, being horny, why are human beings horny?

• 1:38:08Alok Kanojia?

  It's because if we weren't horny, we would never mate. Like that's like, it's evolutionary, it's not a bug, it's not a problem. It's a drive to help us succeed. So then we have this thing called post nut clarity, right? Which is like when we have post nut clarity, our horniness kind of goes down. And then it changes the way that we see the world. So part of what we see a lot with like pornography as a substitute for relationships is first of all, we evolved to have these parts of the brain that get activated, right? Relationships are a healthy thing for us. And now we figured out how to partially activate the brain through pornography. This is getting worse with things like OnlyFans because now we develop a parasocial relationship. There's usually not parasocial relationships with like, you know,

• 1:38:50Alok Kanojia?

  adult film actresses, or maybe there are, but now we have interaction. I've seen more marriages ruined through OnlyFans than I have through pornography. And I've seen a big spike in this recently because now it's not just a physical thing. There's enough insecurity and physicality and problems in the bedroom.

• 1:39:08Steven Bartlett?

  And emotion.

• 1:39:09Alok Kanojia?

  Now there's an emotional relationship.

• 1:39:11Steven Bartlett?

  If pornography online didn't exist, would...

• 1:39:15Steven Bartlett?

  We have better romantic relationships in real life. You've got an opinion, haven't you?

• 1:39:20Alok Kanojia?

  Yeah, we don't know. Short answer is we don't know. But even a shorter answer is, yeah, things are worse with pornography. And here's what I look at, right? So like, if we don't have RCTs, what else can we look at?

• 1:39:30Steven Bartlett?

  What's RCTs?

• 1:39:30Alok Kanojia?

  Randomized controlled trials. You know, what we can look at is global trends. So what are we seeing? What's the global trend in pornography? And what's the global trend in relationships? Now, this isn't causality. There could be all, there's all kinds of, I think, one thing that I really appreciated is, you know, my, my co guests have clearly showed how nuanced and multifactorial this issue is. But generally speaking, people are watching way more porn. And relationships are getting worse. We have declining birth rates. People are getting married later. You know, there's, we're seeing a kind of global, like zeitgeist problem between men and women. And pornography is like correlated with those two things.

• 1:40:13Alok Kanojia?

  So in my mind, if you, if I say, if you have to, if I have to put an answer, if we removed all pornography from the world, would things get better? I would say yes, but that's because the way pornography is right now, and I think is, let me finish, I think I'm going to tee you up. So I think it's, it's because, and the reason removing it would be better is because it has gotten more toxic. Right? So as pornography becomes more harmful, as it morphs and transforms into something that is more damaging, removing it should make things better.

• 1:40:50Steven Bartlett?

  Which is inevitable. Because of how the brain works, you said, we get increasingly desensitized. So we want more extreme. So if you start here, you're eventually going to end up here regardless.

• 1:41:00Speaker 02

  I would say for who would it be better or worse? Because for me and my taste, it would probably be worse.

• 1:41:11Speaker 02

  I think that people who are searching ideas, desires, fantasies, scripts, outside the kind of heteronormative, male dominant pornography that's out there, they have really, you know, had the benefit of what has happened during the last years on the internet. Today, they have access to different role models. They have access to different stories. They have access to representation. They, you know, have access to sex education that is not heteronormative and, and, you know,

• 1:41:50Speaker 02

  kind of, you know, in a heteronormative script, when it comes to sexual debut, et cetera, people always talk about that that is through penetrative sex. But it's not necessarily true, is it?

• 1:42:08Steven Bartlett?

  What did we do before porn? I mean, were we struggling in the bedroom before pornography existed?

• 1:42:13Speaker 04

  I mean, I think people were more open about sexuality. The way the frigidness around sexuality has, is a modern concept, right? Like in, in ancient civilizations, you were watching people have sex. It was in life, right? Like it was.

• 1:42:27Steven Bartlett?

  But it wasn't easily accessible in 15 seconds and extreme. So we're saying we should come off, we should.

• 1:42:35Speaker 02

  We have to mature, I think. I think we are in a maturing process that porn online this way is still pretty new. And we haven't talked about it much in, you know, general society. So I think that this conversation that you are having now, that you invited us to have a nuanced conversation, taking lots of time to talk about different aspects, that is exactly what we need.

• 1:43:02Speaker 04

  Yeah, I agree. And I would just say, just back to your point, I think, you know, yes, we see the rise of all these things concurrently, but if we got rid of porn, would there be something else that people would be turning to, right? Like is chicken or the egg, right? It's probably not the cause, it's multifactorial. And so would people then turn to something else? So would it be OnlyFans instead of porn, right? Would it be, I mean, and OnlyFans can be a variety of different things, right? But it's now a live person that's communicating with someone else. Or is it going to be AI robots that have sex with you, right? Like, are we going to turn to something else?

• 1:43:33Steven Bartlett?

  Gaming addiction or some other type of addiction, gambling or recreational drugs or alcohol or? So it's really, you're saying it's more of just of a symptom of a set of challenges in society that people are using it for the emotional regulation that you described, Dr. Kay?

• 1:43:47Speaker 04

  I think there's a little of both, right? It's easily accessible, it's free, I mean, your time is time, but like it is not costing you money. So that is, that is part of the issue, but I'm saying I don't think it's, I think that there is a bigger problem and that people are using it as a scapegoat to avoid this problem.

• 1:44:05Alok Kanojia?

  Just to kind of counterpoint to that, I don't think you'll disagree with what I'm about to say. So the other thing that we know from addictions is that people have drugs of choice, right? So to say that it would be completely replaced, I would disagree with because I think that the way that pornography affects your brain is unique compared to video games. And at the same time, we also see a lot of stuff to support. I agree with Dr. Malik, is that like, we're seeing a rise in video game addiction, we're seeing a rise in social media addiction, we're seeing a rise in pornography addiction. And depending on your individual makeup, you may be vulnerable to pornography versus social media, right? So when you have, when you need that parasocial relationship, without the sexual, sexual

• 1:44:50Alok Kanojia?

  component, maybe you get addicted to social media. When you have that sexual component, maybe you get addicted to pornography. And so I think it is, I do think it's like a pretty unique thing. So if we just look at the physiology of sexuality in relationships, that's a pretty like, it's a dangerous, dangerous thing to hijack because it's so like fundamental to like life and mating. So, you know, I think it, I think it's somewhat specific. I don't think it, I think if we removed it, it would have some effect. But I think what I'm hearing from my co-guests is that, you know, I think this is true of all technology. It's not that, oh, we should ban it. That's why I'm kind of reluctant when you ask that question.

• 1:45:33Alok Kanojia?

  And I'm happy to say, sure, on balance, I'll say yes. But I think the key thing to understand is that we are developing things as the human race without realizing what we're building. We are developing, so the problem with pornography is almost like an issue of like, you know, when you introduce an invasive species to a new environment, there are no checks and balances. So I think like there are parts of Australia, for example, where like they introduced rabbits, and rabbits have like just taken over the whole continent. And so I think what's happened with pornography is we started letting people, arguably the wrong people, start building all of this pornography. It's ripped through our society. It's changed the way that now forty something percent of women are coerced into asphyxiation in college. Like, what the fuck? Right? Like, this is insane.

• 1:46:18Alok Kanojia?

  Like, how did we get here?

• 1:46:20Steven Bartlett?

  But it's only just the beginning. You mentioned the virtual reality, AI, these new technologies. One of the great things about these new technologies, specifically AI and large language models, is they can have a conversation with you. And this is something in technology that we couldn't really do before in such a remarkably personalized way. So you kind of combine these technologies. You go, OK, I'll add in virtual reality. Robotics is on the rise as well. We now have these large language models that can communicate with you in whatever way they need to, to make you feel whatever you need to feel. And I look at that and go, the future's not bright as it relates to sex, relationships, and pornography. People, you know, they did a study in 2020 with virtual reality, and they found, the

• 1:47:04Steven Bartlett?

  researchers found in that study that virtual reality porn made people feel more desired, more flirted with, and more connected to the actress. So the more immersive we make pornography, which is the direction of travel in the world generally, the more it's going to be addictive, the more it's going to feel like a better substitute than having a real relationship with a real person.

• 1:47:23Speaker 04

  Yeah, I agree. I think it's, unless we develop some checks and balances and we prioritize relationships with other human beings as a society, we're going to be in trouble.

• 1:47:37Steven Bartlett?

  So what do we do there? Do we ban it? Do we ban virtual AI porn? Because there's already websites now, there was three websites that I found, that allowed you to make your own Partner and they're calling this digi-sexuals where you can pick their personality, you can pick their physical preferences, you can pick the sexual fantasy that they perform and that you want to see them perform. And, and, and these are becoming increasingly popular. And the great thing about these, according to the websites that make these sexual characters that you can make yourself, is it remembers all of your previous conversations. So quote, it can improve communication and cater to what your desire is. So it can really speak to what you want.

• 1:48:20Speaker 02

  But it can't touch you. It can't hug you. It can't kiss you.

• 1:48:25Steven Bartlett?

  But the robots can. Those big sexual robots can.

• 1:48:28Alok Kanojia?

  So like, I know this is gonna sound crazy, but like, you know, I, I think we, we look at the end of the human race and we look at things like climate change and nuclear war and, and maybe like some superbug that is resistant to all of our antibiotics. Like, there's a tiny, tiny chance that what's gonna end the human race is something like this. And I know that's like kind of a bold statement to make, but like, let me just share with you all what I'm afraid of. So what's going on is you're right, it's becoming more immersive. And the whole problem with like technology and even the virtual world, what we see in video games is that the immersive world is one that we prefer to the real world. Right? So if you kind of think about, let's say, OnlyFans versus a real relationship, OnlyFans, like this person is financially invested to not piss me off. Whereas, I know this

• 1:49:13Alok Kanojia?

  is very frustrating for a lot of dudes out there. Turns out if you're in a real relationship with a woman, there's a human being who has thoughts and feelings and desires of her own. I know it's tough. Right? And, and so like, what happens is we, in OnlyFans, like they're, they're invested in making you happy. And now what we're happening is AI girlfriends. That's just the start of it, man. Like, right now, they, they can try to fulfill your desires. Someone's gonna figure out that a random reinforcement schedule is better. So if you wanna create the most addictive virtual girlfriend, she's actually not gonna give you what you want. Some of the time, she's gonna piss you off. She's gonna throw a temper tantrum. That is gonna trick your brain into thinking this is a real relationship.

• 1:49:52Steven Bartlett?

  Which comes from gambling psychology, right?

• 1:49:54Alok Kanojia?

  Gambling psychology, right? And so now what I'm gonna do is get more addicted. To technology. And this is why video games are addictive. There's a really fascinating study where people were like, the reason video games are addictive is because of a denial of a reward. So if you look at Fortnite, Fortnite is a game that has 100 players in arena. There's one winner, which means you lose 99% of the time. But oh, boy, if you're the winner that one time, the dopamine surge that you get is astronomical. When we deny human beings rewards and then we give it to them, they're hooked. This is gambling. This is also why we respect people sitting at this table, because we've all worked hard. What we did is not easy to do. That's why everyone values it. Someone's going to figure this out with AI girlfriends.

• 1:50:38Alok Kanojia?

  And then this is the thing they can't hug us, but they can. So this is happening. So this technology was actually developed in the early 2000s for medical reasons. So when we were seeing clinics in remote parts of the world that would have these things called haptic feedback gloves. So this is back when, if you look at like a doctor who was, this was specifically a technology developed around detecting breast cancer. So what happens is I put on a glove, I'm a doctor, and someone else puts on a glove somewhere else in the world. And then they do a breast exam. So they feel the breast, okay? And then based on the lumps that you feel, whatever their glove feels, I'm wearing a glove that makes me feel the same things. So we have some of these sexually assistive devices, like, you know, for both men and women now.

• 1:51:22Alok Kanojia?

  When we combine haptic feedback and they start throwing temper tantrums, like, I really think it could be like, there's this tiny chance it's just the end of the human race. Because we're not like, why bother with another human? When I can get touch and I can get activated.

• 1:51:38Speaker 04

  And you can get irritated every so often.

• 1:51:39Alok Kanojia?

  Every so often, which makes it so much sweeter, right? Makeup sex is great.

• 1:51:44Steven Bartlett?

  The end of the human race.

• 1:51:46Speaker 02

  Scary. I don't, I don't want to go there.

• 1:51:49Speaker 04

  And I think we have to actively work at it, right? Like, we have to teach our children that, like, relationships are hard and worth it. And, you know, like, it has, it's hard, though. It's, it's really hard. But I think, um, Yeah, I think it's gonna be a challenge and we have to have some checks and balances. And we on our own have to work in our own little microcosm to try to continually have the younger generation see the value of relationships and procreation and all those things because that's, you know, on the decline.

• 1:52:19Steven Bartlett?

  Don't people in life typically just go for the path of least resistance when left to their own devices? And I was thinking as you're speaking about, when I was in primary school, they came in and taught me about your five a day. So like, you're meant to have like five fruit and vegetables a day or whatever. But then if they tell you that information, but then they put you in a food environment where every shop is selling me candy and, you know, processed foods because it's more nutritious, my brain spikes more. There's no, it doesn't matter if what you told me. It doesn't matter if I know five fruit and vegetable, but we still have like this obesity crisis. And I think if you went up to the average American and said, what food is healthy? I think a good proportion of them would be able to say what's healthy and what's not. But then if you ask them what they consume, it's a very different answer irrespective

• 1:53:00Steven Bartlett?

  of pricing because your brain, especially in a more stressed world than ever before, is really driving, driving you. So I'm picking up the soda, I'm picking up. And I think about the same in pornography. We can know something is not good for us, but if it's readily available and it's low friction to access it, the incentives are gonna win out over the long term. And I think about this in company culture. I say to people all the time, I say, you know, as a CEO, you can stand there and tell your group of people how you want the team to behave, but it's almost, it's really naive to assume over any long, long period of time that people will act outside of their incentives. So you can say, I want you guys to all to innovate, but if your job description is literally rewarding you to do your current job, and your bonuses are rewarding you to do your current job, you're gonna do your current job regardless of what the CEO is barking,

• 1:53:45Steven Bartlett?

  you know, at you. I think about the same in porn, like, we can't just, we can't just rely on telling people that it's bad.

• 1:53:52Speaker 04

  People do, people do do things for delayed gratification, right? We went to medical school, there is a lot of delayed gratification in medical school. You're a CEO, you're a producer, like, these are not easy things to start, right? And you do it because you know there's potential reward at the end of it. So there is, you know, human psychology, and I'm sure Dr. K can talk more about that, like, where you can foster this appreciation for delayed gratification.

• 1:54:16Speaker 02

  And also with good food, you know, when you eat well, when you eat green, et cetera, you feel much better and that gives you energy and then you wanna keep going.

• 1:54:25Steven Bartlett?

  The stats just, the obesity stats are just horrifying. In the US in particular, it's a country where, you know.

• 1:54:32Speaker 02

  Education, education, education.

• 1:54:35Steven Bartlett?

  We tried that. In school, I was told that vegetables are good and this is good. But then obesity stats, since the time I was in school, have just gone in one direction still.

• 1:54:43Speaker 02

  But maybe it's about the practice. We have to learn, you know, how to get into the right practice of things.

• 1:54:49Steven Bartlett?

  And this is a question really about, is it the individual that has to find this discipline? Or this sort of self-control? Or at a social level, do we need to put things in place to make the environment easier to operate in?

• 1:55:02Alok Kanojia?

  So a couple of thoughts. The first, so the first is, I think the answer to that question, which we learn in medical school, is there's never an either or. The answer is always both. It's always multifactorial. So I think I'm with you that, so like, when I think about, like, you know, what is my life's work? It's, I work on the individual level. So when you ask me, should we ban something? It's like, I don't know. Because my thought is that we got to save a couple of people. The good news about the human race dying out is that, you know, if a couple of people continue to have sex with each other, then all the people who are vulnerable to AI relationships will actually not procreate and humanity will survive, right? So maybe we're okay. But I think that the other thing you have to keep in mind, so this is maybe a little bit more of a spiritual bent.

• 1:55:45Alok Kanojia?

  So I'm with you that there's an obesity crisis. I'm with you that human beings, it's kind of like, we treat human beings like the lowest common denominator, right? We're like, oh, human beings, if we give them broccoli and cookies, like, they're gonna eat cookies. But I think that there are two things. The first thing is that, like Dr. Malik said, you know, I think even if we look at this podcast, like, the people who are watching this are not interested in eating cookies. And there is an appetite. Why have podcasts exploded? Because people tried to educate kids in school. And what we have organically, evolutionarily discovered is there is a different way to communicate information that creates behavioral change. That's the first thing. So we're seeing the counterbalancing force of obesity.

• 1:56:31Alok Kanojia?

  Like, the whole world became obese because we had people making calorically dense food without an awareness of it. But I also see the highest amount of, like, whole grain advertisement that I've ever seen before. Now we know it's a problem and now humanity is fighting back. And the other thing, so this is what I think really separates human beings from animals. And maybe this is an argument that a more competent biologist will, will say I'm wrong here. This is more of a spiritual perspective. But I think human beings are the only species on the planet that may be able to run against our programming. Right? And you can argue that this is even a deeper level of programming. But like, the whole point of being human, the cool thing about being human is my brain can drive me, like you said, in one direction.

• 1:57:16Alok Kanojia?

  But I can say, hey, even though my brain is driving me in this direction, I don't want to go in that direction. Human beings are, it's really interesting, right? Because we're the ones that like, so I remember, you know, watching this TikTok or something about a vegan dog. And someone was like, oh yeah, you know, my dog is vegan. They don't even like food. Let's do an experiment. There's one piece of meat and one piece of some weird corn broccoli chowder. Right? Dog sniffs both, has never had meat for the last two years and eats the meat. So if we look at animals, like animals, it's not clear to me that animals are able to regulate their impulses in the way that human beings do. Why have human beings dominated the planet? It's because when we feel like having a cookie, we have broccoli. When we feel like yelling at someone, we restrain ourselves.

• 1:58:02Alok Kanojia?

  And there may be some deeper biology evolutionary kind of thing going on there. But I'd ask each and every one of you to look at your experience for a second. Forget about biology. When you have an impulse, does that impulse control you or can you fight back?

• 1:58:16Speaker 02

  I fight.

• 1:58:17Alok Kanojia?

  Right? We all fight. That's the human experience. The human experience is fighting against our impulses every fucking day. And then we try to learn, how can I get better at this? Because what my tongue wants, I'm talking about calories, not sex for a second. What my tongue wants is not, there's a part of me that says, this is not good for me in the long run. This is delayed gratification.

• 1:58:40Steven Bartlett?

  How many of our impulses do you actually think we're winning the fight against? Because I would argue that we're losing pretty much all of the fights against our impulses. In fact, the fact that we're all sat here is probably us following our impulses. The rise in social media usage is us being a slave to our impulses. The rise in obesity globally is us failing, losing the fight to our impulses. The rise in pornography is us losing our fight to our impulses. The rise in gaming, gambling, alcohol, whatever, is us losing our fight with our impulses.

• 1:59:09Alok Kanojia?

  Yeah.

• 1:59:10Steven Bartlett?

  Workaholic people.

• 1:59:11Alok Kanojia?

  So this is gonna sound wild. I think we're getting better at it. So I know you're saying we're losing the war, right? Human being self-control is increasing. And the reason why? We're losing the war right now, but the enemy is coming up with better and better weapons. Technology is getting sophisticated. Pornography is getting sophisticated. Social media is getting sophisticated. And yet, the human race, in some ways, we're collapsing. But we're also like operating in some ways at the best level that we ever have. So we're getting outgunned, but I actually think human beings on the whole. What I see in the community, what's the top search? How do I quit pornography? So there's something happening like on a humanity level where we're like, as human beings,

• 1:59:56Alok Kanojia?

  we're like, we gotta start fighting back. This podcast is a consequence of that. This is human beings fighting back. So are we losing the war? Yeah, but I think we've been like, we got caught by surprise. We got caught with our pants down, right? Which may be a weird analogy in this context. But you know, so like, I'm with you that there's a lot of reasons to be scared. And also like, the reason that people pay attention to me and Dr. Malik and Erica is because we're fighting back, right? That's why we're here. Steven, this is brilliant, man, because here you are. And what are you, whatever the questions you're asking us, we're all screwed. We're doomed. Isn't it all screwed? Right? So you've become so sophisticated that everyone who's listening to us, you're pulling out the strongest messages of hope that the three of us can muster.

• 2:00:40Alok Kanojia?

  You're figuring out how to give people hope. Because you keep on asking these pessimistic, pessimistic, pessimistic questions. So this is what it takes, man. It takes like people who are like figuring out how this works. Maybe you're controlling their impulses. Who knows?

• 2:00:54Steven Bartlett?

  No, no, I have to represent whatever the opposite of whatever you say is. If you say left, I'll say right.

• 2:00:58Alok Kanojia?

  Yeah, right. And so that's beautiful. So think about it. When you were at school, did anyone ever tell you there's a conflict between broccoli and cookies? No, they said, eat broccoli. So we've figured out as a human race that we need to represent both sides of the conflict to get the best out of a human being. That's a critical principle for addiction treatment, too. You can't tell them it's good. You have to weigh the good and the bad.

• 2:01:22Steven Bartlett?

  Is there any such thing as too much porn, Dr. Rena?

• 2:01:25Speaker 04

  So I think it's really about how you feel about it. So in all the data about problematic porn use, it's like people who feel bad about it, like they're like, oh, I really don't, I think I use too much, then you probably use too much, right? But if you use it and you don't feel bad about it, and you're still able to go to work, and you're still able to maintain your relationships and have sex with your partner or your partners or whatever, then it's not a problem, right? So I think it's really, it comes down to how you feel about it, and usually you're right about it. Usually if you feel like something's wrong and you're using too much, then probably abstaining or trying a different alternative may be beneficial.

• 2:01:58Steven Bartlett?

  So just to conclude then, if I made you Prime Minister, President of the United Kingdom, the world, let's say, and you had to put legislation in place to make our relationship with pornography healthier or to make it a net more positive force for society or impact on society, what exactly would you do, Dr. Rena?

• 2:02:20Speaker 04

  This is a tough question. So I think I would have some mandatory self-analysis of your porn use that everyone has to take every so often so that people can actually have to look at it with an objective, like not watching porn, but seeing like how many hours do you use it? And how often are you using it? And again, frequency is not always related to problem, but it is one marker that we can measure. And then, you know, maybe again have a warning to them that this seems like a lot of use. Are you still, and if they had a certain marker of use, maybe are you finding that you're having difficulties in relationships? And whatever. And that would hopefully alert some red flags to people who may need some assistance.

• 2:03:04Speaker 04

  And hopefully we'd have some sort of intervention for them.

• 2:03:07Steven Bartlett?

  What about you, Dr. Kay?

• 2:03:09Alok Kanojia?

  Honestly, what I'd do is resign. The first thing I would do. But if you're asking for like a single policy change, I can get behind one thing. So I think the biggest thing that we need right now from a policy level is social and emotional skills training for all children. I think we need to reevaluate what we teach in schools and what what people actually need to learn today. So school, when knowledge and information was not easily accessible, school was about learning information. But I don't need to learn the capital of any state or country now because I can look it up. So I think what we really need is social and emotional skills training. There are also studies that show that this is very, very helpful for people. So how do you regulate your emotions? How do you form connections with other people?

• 2:03:53Alok Kanojia?

  These are the two biggest things that we need because our emotions, when they get out of whack, they're the birth of all addiction.

• 2:04:00Speaker 02

  And media training. So young people can understand what they actually are watching and that media is sending out messages to the world and that we are decoding those messages. I think that is absolutely necessary. But what I would do, I think porn should be behind a payment barrier. For me, that's, I believe that that's the way it should be.

• 2:04:23Speaker 04

  And better sexual education.

• 2:04:25Speaker 02

  Better sexual education.

• 2:04:26Speaker 04

  I would add that, add that to the mandate.

• 2:04:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 2:04:30Steven Bartlett?

  What's the most important thing that we should have talked about, but we didn't talk about as it relates to the work that you do and what you've seen as it relates to sexual health, relationships, love and dating?

• 2:04:39Speaker 04

  I think what we didn't spend enough time on is how pornography changes our body images. So I think there is a significant number of people, men interested in increasing penile length, women interested in maybe labiaplasty or looking a certain way that they're often seeing on pornography. And I think that creates a lot of dissatisfaction, a lot of shame, a lot of, you know, small penis anxiety is a real thing. And it's, it is very detrimental. People are so, so focused on.

• 2:05:14Speaker 04

  The size of their penis, that they are now thinking about or ruminating about it, potentially doing harm to themselves to try to increase penile length. And so I think that this is something we didn't talk about, but that is another potential harm of seeing people who have chosen to be pornography actors who have, you know, on the high standard deviations of size, that's not normal, right? And so they're not seeing normal anatomy. And I think that's, that's potentially harmful.

• 2:05:40Speaker 02

  I, I agree partly, but then also I hear many people when they're talking about porn, they're saying porn creates unexpected kind of ideas of, of your bodies and et cetera. But I'm, I'm a bit suspicious about this because honestly, look at fashion. What is fashion doing? I think it's worse. I really think it's worse many times. I, I, in porn, there are so many different people today, different body types, different ages, different, you know, different everything that are being represented. So I think that that statement might be, you know, from 10 years ago or something.

• 2:06:18Steven Bartlett?

  Where does that statement come from?

• 2:06:20Speaker 04

  Just, I mean, we know that there is small penis anxiety. We know that people are searching for it. My highest viewed video is about increasing penile length. There's over 30 million views. So it is clearly something that people are searching. Now, is it from pornography 100%? No, not necessarily, but that's where they're seeing these very large organs is typically on pornography. Yes, you can see a whole host of a variety of different types of people, but I think they're seeing it there and feeling inadequate.

• 2:06:47Speaker 02

  But probably when it comes to men, there are less variety in porn than when it comes to women.

• 2:06:54Steven Bartlett?

  Erica, do you use large penises in your work? I don't know how to say that.

• 2:07:01Steven Bartlett?

  Is part of your sort of...

• 2:07:02Speaker 02

  Do you choose them by the size? No, I do not. I look for, I look for people's personality. That's what I'm after. I'm, I'm looking for people who, who feel like real people. I'm, I, I, I mean, beauty and energy and passion and chemistry, these sort of things.

• 2:07:21Steven Bartlett?

  But does the penis size matter?

• 2:07:22Speaker 02

  No, to me it doesn't matter. But then if we're gonna be... Hundred percent honest, it's true that many of the performers have slightly bigger penises than what is considered average.

• 2:07:36Steven Bartlett?

  What's the average penis length?

• 2:07:37Speaker 04

  It's about 5.1 to 5.5 inches erect.

• 2:07:41Steven Bartlett?

  And is there a gap in the perception there? Do men think the average penis length is bigger?

• 2:07:46Speaker 04

  Yeah, actually, both genders do. So when you look at studies where people like look at a penis and estimate the size, both genders tend to tend to overestimate average penile length. But they also are not really great at looking at a penis and telling the size. So sometimes they'll see like a five and a half inch penis and they get six inches, you know, up to an inch in variability, basically, when you get on the above-average sizes. So there is, you know, obviously, perception issues. But ultimately, I think the people who tend to want to be, and correct me if I'm wrong, who want to be performers who are male will generally have something they want to show off, and they will think they have a larger penis.

• 2:08:25Steven Bartlett?

  What about the length of sex, though? Is there disparities between how long we think sex should be and how often we think we should be having it, which causes a lot of sort of dissatisfaction in relationships?

• 2:08:33Speaker 04

  Yeah, absolutely. So there is, the average time to ejaculation for a man is about five, five to six minutes. The average time to orgasm for a woman during partnered intercourse is about 14 minutes. So there's definitely a disparity there that needs to be addressed. If you want the, if you have average duration in your relationship, then the female partner needs to be prioritized so she can reach climax. And that's not the end goal for everybody. You can still have a great relationship and have a great experience without an orgasm. But if you want both people to climax, you need to stimulate the female partner a little longer.

• 2:09:11Steven Bartlett?

  You're gonna say something, Mitter?

• 2:09:12Alok Kanojia?

  Yes. It's just when she was saying, you know, that's not the priority, she looked at Eric. So there's just, I'm sorry, like, my brain grew up on the internet and like, there's like a subtract that's running this whole time. But so I think, you know, what I, what I teach my patients is almost identical. So if you look at the average sexual intercourse, like, people don't realize it's three to seven minutes. Is it, what's really, even really fascinating is that, speaking of misperceptions, about 50% of women

• 2:09:44Alok Kanojia?

  Start, uh, don't want sex longer than 15 minutes. So I didn't know what the average time to female or male orgasm was, but I know what people prefer. And half of women, like, they don't want, you know, if you watch like a, a, a tube film or something, like, sure, sometimes there's shorts and stuff, but there's also like, you know, porno is like 45 minutes of all kinds of stuff, like, it's like three to seven minutes and women start complaining after 50 seconds. So I see a lot of this, um, you know, this like, uh, body dysmorphia almost. It's like getting to that level in both men and women. Unrealistic expectations about body, unrealistic expectations about performance. That creates shame. Once I feel shame, then I want to watch pornography. Then, you know, I want to watch Dr. Malik's video that has 30 million views

• 2:10:27Alok Kanojia?

  or get pills to increase my penis size on the advertisers. You know, so I, I think that there's just a lot of bad information out there.

• 2:10:34Steven Bartlett?

  So does this mean that we need to make pornography that is reflective of reality? I.e. make it three to five minutes long for men and 14 minutes for women. But also, um, does it mean that we need to introduce pornography that's reflective of all body images? Because again, I go back to this like broccoli cookie analogy.

• 2:10:52Alok Kanojia?

  So I, I don't think it has to be pornography. So I had an interesting experience. So like I was in Europe and I went to a coed sauna, right? So like, we don't have that here in the United States. And the coed sauna was like mostly like older people. So you see like, you know, the majority of people there were like 60 plus. So you see like, you know, a hundred naked bodies of like old men and women. And it really puts things in perspective. I think part of the problem is with things like fashion and things like pornography. We don't, you know, we just don't see what a normal naked body looks like. So what, what's the only, we see two kinds of naked bodies. We see our own and then we see, you know, highly produced or highly selected. We don't see normal naked.

• 2:11:31Steven Bartlett?

  But if I made a porn, porn film that had reality in it, would anybody buy it?

• 2:11:37Alok Kanojia?

  Well, I think if you made a porn film.

• 2:11:39Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, explain.

• 2:11:42Steven Bartlett?

  That would sell out. What are you talking about?

• 2:11:44Speaker 02

  Uh, no, but it but it but it.

• 2:11:45Steven Bartlett?

  Just have a plan B.

• 2:11:46Speaker 02

  But the answer, the answer here is yes, I made a film with a couple who are seventy plus. And it's very successful. People.

• 2:11:55Speaker 04

  There's a very popular older female, I don't know her, but I've seen her on social media, who's a porn porn actress and she's, you know, she's a normal looking person.

• 2:12:03Speaker 02

  There's quite many, actually.

• 2:12:07Steven Bartlett?

  But why don't the industry make videos then of people with normal bodies and normal sized penises?

• 2:12:11Speaker 02

  They do, they do.

• 2:12:12Steven Bartlett?

  But those videos aren't the popular ones, according to the data.

• 2:12:15Speaker 02

  Not necessarily.

• 2:12:15Steven Bartlett?

  If you go on any streaming website and you click the popular button, what you'll see is idyllic bodies. Now, if people were searching out the pornography you're saying, those would be the most popular because the the companies would make more money from them.

• 2:12:27Speaker 02

  I mean, there's so much content. I think that that really lots of it is is is popular. I I I mean, there's, you know, one of the things that they are doing on this size, on these sites, is that they are categorizing people by their primarily features, kind of. So you can look for porn with bigger bodies, for example, and it's quite a popular category, actually. But you can also look for tiny teens, you can look for MILFs, you can look for for cougars. You, I mean, people, many people, they have kind of gotten away from what is kind of desire and connecting people

• 2:13:10Speaker 02

  and has gotten into this way of kind of having their favorite kind of people, their favorite kind of porn.

• 2:13:17Steven Bartlett?

  Would your, would your business be more or less successful if the bodies were reflective of society and the penises were reflective of society? Would your business be more or less successful?

• 2:13:26Speaker 02

  In my case, I don't, I don't think so. I think we already show a great diversity of people.

• 2:13:32Steven Bartlett?

  Is it reflective of society?

• 2:13:35Speaker 02

  Hundred percent not, but who is? Is Netflix reflective of society? Is Vogue magazine reflective of society, et cetera? I mean, I think that we do tend to look for beauty somehow, but beauty doesn't mean stereotyped, model-like people.

• 2:13:55Alok Kanojia?

  Yeah, just to chime in. So I think I'd challenge your question just a little bit because I think when you say like, I get what you're saying, but I think we can also see amateur porn is on the rise.

• 2:14:04Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 2:14:05Alok Kanojia?

  And if we look at, when you say OnlyFans made 6.6 billion, I think a big appeal in OnlyFans is that you have much more normal looking people. And so when we look at the success of a business or not, I think there's also like a varied market. So people are looking for different things. And I think we're seeing that they're like, even as porn becomes highly overly produced and stuff, there's kind of this like almost paradoxical upswing in amateur content in things like OnlyFans, where you have someone who really is closer to the girl next door. When we're talking about a heteronormative sort of situation. And I think we can also see that in, we see that trend all over the place, right? So as we get to short form content, we're also seeing an explosion in podcasts.

• 2:14:51Alok Kanojia?

  So I think there's a variable consumer there.

• 2:14:53Steven Bartlett?

  I was looking as you were speaking at the top 10 earners on OnlyFans. And I have to say, none of them look like they reflect the average person.

• 2:15:02Alok Kanojia?

  Yeah, so the top 10 earners won't.

• 2:15:05Steven Bartlett?

  Top 20?

• 2:15:06Alok Kanojia?

  No, no, you can't look at the top. You have to look at what percentage of the 6 billion comes from the top 10 earners? And what percentage comes from other people?

• 2:15:15Speaker 02

  I can.

• 2:15:16Alok Kanojia?

  So is OnlyFans the kind of thing where it's like, you know, the majority of the revenue is earned by the top 10 earners? Or is it this kind of thing where the top 10 earners get maybe 50%? But then 50% is like a pretty wide variety. That's the statistic you need to look at.

• 2:15:31Speaker 02

  I can tell you that what we do see is that people search a lot on our sites for real sex. It's a concept that people are really looking for.

• 2:15:42Steven Bartlett?

  I also looked at Pornhub. This is the first time I've gone on Pornhub at work. Just to see again that the most viewed porn stars on Pornhub. And it's the same reflection. None of them look like the average person. You know, I'm looking at the heterosexuals. I'm looking at women and men. And they all look like mannequins. All 30 of them.

• 2:16:03Alok Kanojia?

  Well, I think you and your team need to do more research.

• 2:16:08Steven Bartlett?

  You can't, you can't accept an answer to these values.

• 2:16:12Steven Bartlett?

  Okay, closing statements, closing thoughts. We've talked about a lot today, so I want to go clockwise, starting with Dr Rena Malik. What are your closing thoughts and statements to the wide variety of people that would have clicked on this video for the wide variety of reasons, whether they're parents, whether they're the young men that struggle that you often spend your time dealing with Dr K. What are your closing thoughts for them? But also, we have a lot of people that are in government that listen, and we only found that out because sometimes they reach out to us. Doctors reach out to us, people in Parliament, in Congress, etc. reach out to us. So what would your statement be to all of those people?

• 2:16:42Speaker 04

  My closing thoughts are invest in education about your body and about sex. So whether that means learning what your anatomy is and learning what real sex is. And I think that is of paramount importance to having a successful relationship with yourself and your partners, that you can enjoy sex and use pornography for curiosity and not for boredom.

• 2:17:04Alok Kanojia?

  Yeah, I think, remember that your body is learning all the time and that we think about pornography and its negative effect, which it can have a negative effect. So I'd start with really understanding, you know, what pornography is doing for you, what's the root of your relationship with it. And also recognize that, I mean, I really do think after this conversation that pornography can be a force for good. And many of the reasons that you may be watching it, you know, if you transition to erotic film, if you use it in a sexual relationship, like, it doesn't have to be a bad thing, it's the way that you relate to it. And, you know, really think about how you can utilize it in a healthier way.

• 2:17:43Speaker 02

  And if you are a consumer, think about what you are watching. See if there's an about page. Can you learn anything about that company, about these directors, producers, performers? Can you watch them behind the scene footage, something that makes you feel that you align with the values of the people who are creating it? Because not all porn is monolithic.

• 2:18:10Speaker 02

  There is many different kinds out there. And there's many great people working in this industry to spread sex positivity and better acceptance of our desires, fantasies, sexual lives, who are interested in the erotic aspects of sexuality.

• 2:18:36Steven Bartlett?

  I also think it's worth saying, you know, we've talked widely about the subject of pornography. But one of the things that I really did come to believe, and I saw when there was a call to ban OnlyFans, was that OnlyFans as a website and as a platform is allowing porn stars and, you know, adult actresses and actors to have a safer way to make their money and to do their business. And previously, what you'd seen is there was much of the escorting industry, which was much more of a dangerous industry, have now moved over towards these platforms, which do provide greater safety for a behaviour that is going to happen irrespective of whether there's a ban in place or not. We have a closing tradition on this podcast, as you all know.

• 2:19:21Steven Bartlett?

  You might not know this, Erica. Where the last guest leaves a question for the next guest. And because the last guest was you, I'm going to skip past it. And I opened up the book to a question that's landed before that. So I'm going to ask you all this question individually, and I'd love to hear your answers. What can you do to improve humanity and the life of all the people that are listening?

• 2:19:45Speaker 04

  I think continue educating people and empowering people to know what their bodies are doing and how they can relate to the opposite sex, if they're heterosexual, in order to have a satisfying sex life. It's not just an extracurricular activity. It's something that we do that's a part of our innate biology, and it's important and valuable.

• 2:20:08Alok Kanojia?

  Yeah, I mean, I think showing up tomorrow is like the most important thing, like not here, but like just, you know, if we think about improving humanity, like human, like, you know, decisions are made by those who show up. So I think the most important thing that I can do is just showing up and continuing to do what I think is best. The most important thing that all of us can do is just continue showing up. The majority of the people that I work with in my community, the biggest problem they have is sometimes not showing up.

• 2:20:36Speaker 02

  I would say connect with other people on a deep level, dare to have difficult conversations, dare to be wrong, because I also think that we live now in a society where so many people are so afraid of being wrong, of saying something wrong, of that sometimes they don't even dare to connect on a deeper level with other people.

• 2:21:03Steven Bartlett?

  Your point, Erica, your answer about being okay to be wrong, I think is really, really important to a lot of the conversations we've had today, because most of the time, people don't want to have these conversations because they're sort of ideologically attached to a certain position, typically the position that's associated with whatever their job is or, you know, their incentive structure. And I think sometimes it's important to have these open nuanced discussions like we've had today, because we can all start to learn a little bit about other people's worlds and bring down some of those sort of ideological walls that keep us imprisoned. And all progress, I think, is happens when you have this sort of this conflict of ideas, but with the purpose not of, you know, proving someone is wrong or you're more intelligent or whatever, but through the purpose and the lens of progress.

• 2:21:47Steven Bartlett?

  And that's why this conversation has been so enlightening to me, because I get to see a bunch of different worlds from a bunch of different perspectives, and I can use that to form my own opinion on the subject of pornography. And I will start by saying that my opinion of pornography has actually changed in this conversation, because there was clearly parts of my understanding of pornography that were in the dark, and those lights have been turned on. So now I have a more contextual picture of the industry. Thank you so much for your time today. I really, really appreciate it. It's, as I said a second ago, it's super inspiring and super enlightening for me to get all of these perspectives and to use all of this new information to reform my own opinion on the subject matter in a much more naive, sort of biased way. So I really appreciate the time that you've all given us today.

• 2:22:32Steven Bartlett?

  And on behalf of all my audience as well, thank you so much. Appreciate all of you. Thank you.

• 2:22:37Alok Kanojia?

  Thanks, Armin.