745 Defining Masculinity and Its Power with Jason Wilson

EMOTIONS ARE GREAT SERVANTS, BUT POOR MASTERS. So many men are hurting, and then hurting others. People don’t want to hear that. But men feel like they’re emotional prisoners. They are committing suicide at much higher rates. They are the ones performing mass shootings. They are reacting in violence. We have to allow men ways to process their past and to express their emotions in order to become the people they are meant to be. It’s not important to “be a man,” it’s important to be human. On today’s episode of The School of Greatness, I talk about the definition of masculinity with a man whose mission is to mentor boys: Jason Wilson. Detroit’s Jason Wilson is a husband and father of two, and the founder and head instructor of the Cave of Adullam Transformational Training Academy, also known as CATTA. In 2015, he received the Campaign for Black Male Achievement Innovation Accelerator Award. In 2016, Wilson received the President's Volunteer Service Award in Washington D. C. Wilson has also been a guest on The Dr. Oz Show where he discussed his Emotional Stability Training® approach. In 2016, Wilson was a presenter at the White House for the My Brother's Keeper Showcase presented by then-President Barack Obama. What Jason is doing so needed in the world. Like Frederick Douglass said, “It is easier to build strong children than to repair broken men.” So get ready to learn how to heal past trauma, rule your emotions, and “man down” on Episode 745. Some Questions I Ask: When did you realize your life was full of trauma? (16:00) What should a man do if he expresses a hurt side of himself and he gets ridiculed by his partner? (24:00) How do you rule your emotions? (39:00) What’s your biggest insecurity? (45:00) What’s your biggest insecurity about being a father? (49:00) What should define us as men? (57:00) In This Episode You Will Learn: Why men need to operate in the fullness of who they are (27:00) The first steps to take to process past trauma (30:00) How men can be better lovers to their partners (38:00) About Jason’s training academy (42:00) The best way women can support men in processing trauma (52:00) Why it’s important for men to cry (55:00) Get more from Lewis! Get my New York Times Bestselling book, Make Money Easy! Get The Greatness Mindset audiobook on SpotifyText Lewis AIYouTubeInstagramWebsiteTiktokFacebookX

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Lewis Howes?

  This is episode number 745 with the inspiring Jason Wilson.

• 0:07Lewis Howes?

  Welcome to the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, a former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur. And each week, we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin.

• 0:32Lewis Howes?

  Helen Keller said it best, although the world is full of suffering, it is also full of the overcoming of it. Wow. Today's episode is with a new friend of mine who we've been connecting over the last year, year and a half on the topic of fighting for freedom from emotional incarceration and also toxic masculinity and other things around that. And we've really connected well online messaging each other. He came to the Summit of Greatness, but I never got to meet him in person until this moment when we had him on. And Jason Wilson is the Director of the Cave of Adullam Transformational Academy, a program of the

• 1:14Lewis Howes?

  union nonprofit organization that he founded in 2003. And as the founder of one of the country's most esteemed youth organizations, Jason has decades of experience in strengthening the physical, mental, and emotional spirit of boys and men. And this is an important and powerful interview, and I really hope you dig in and share this with your friends because we talk about the importance of men having a way to express their emotions. We also cover what men can do to practice ruling their emotions. Why pain is not meant for us to push through, but to understand. And how men and women can support each other in all types of relationships. That and so much more. I was so moved by his book, Cry

• 1:59Lewis Howes?

  Like a Man. And I share a lot of his videos that go viral on my Instagram as well. And the lessons he has, the wisdom that he shares in this interview is really going to inspire you. It doesn't matter who you are. This is going to be a powerful, powerful interview. So make sure to tag me at Lewis Howes and tag Mr. Jason Wilson on Instagram to let us know that you're listening and share it with your friends, lewishowes.com/. 745 for the full video and show notes and information about that. Super excited about this. All right, big thank you to our sponsors and I'm so excited about this one. Let's dive in with the one and only Mr. Jason Wilson.

• 2:47Lewis Howes?

  All right, welcome back everyone to the School of Greatness Podcast. We have a very inspiring human today, Jason Wilson in the house.

• 2:54Jason Wilson?

  What's up, man?

• 2:54Lewis Howes?

  Good to see you, man.

• 2:55Jason Wilson?

  This is really exciting to be here.

• 2:56Lewis Howes?

  I'm so glad you're here, Ben. This is, um, I think I learned about you maybe two years ago on social media, probably from one of the videos that went viral or something. Started following you, your work, shared a bunch of your videos over the past. I shared one, I think a couple of days ago, actually, that did really well. And I think what you're doing is so needed in the world and you're just a massive inspiration. So I acknowledge you for that and I appreciate you because so many men are suffering and are hurting and are hurting others because of it. And we're in a time right now where saying that men are suffering is probably like the thing that women don't want to hear.

• 3:32Jason Wilson?

  That's true.

• 3:32Lewis Howes?

  They don't want to hear that. They want to hear, well, women have been suffering for so much longer.

• 3:36Jason Wilson?

  That's the truth.

• 3:37Lewis Howes?

  And so I think there's a, a fine line of having a conversation about this. But in the video you talked about the other day, you know, the statistics are that men are committing more suicide than women. Men feel like they're prisoners emotionally more than women and many other things. And because of those reasons, I think men in general suffer worse and they cause harm on other people and themselves because of it.

• 4:02Jason Wilson?

  Yes, the statistics show that it's affecting us more than women. And I like to say that we're both hurting. And so you're right, if we focus on one gender, not the other, you know, automatically one side will become defensive. But the reality is that we're both hurting, especially in my community, African-American community, it's, uh, we wear trauma like a badge of honor because of all that we've gone through and what we go through now. And so because of that, if you stay in a traumatized mind, you really can't enjoy the blessing of the present. And so your threshold is always here. As soon as the slightest thing happen, you snap or you have a traumatic experience or a breakup like we were just talking about, it's compounded because you haven't released what happened 10 to 20 years ago.

• 4:46Jason Wilson?

  And so it's very important that, I always say that men learn how to be human. You know, we are more concerned with being masculine. When I looked up the word masculinity, it was amazing. It's attributes that are traditionally ascribed to men like strength and boldness. But I said, but they're not ascribed to being a human. And so really, I don't think it's a thing as false masculinity because really if you just say you're operating and being masculine, all you're gonna exonerate those masculine attributes like aggression, of being strong, bold, assertiveness, but no compassion, no caring, no sensitivity. And so because of that, we're not comprehensive.

• 5:29Jason Wilson?

  And, you know, again, when we judge ourselves or place ourselves against what this world say a man is. And so you say, man, I like gardening, for instance. But that's not being a man. Men don't garden. Now, you think, I'm no good, I don't need to be here. Now you say, I can't even get a girlfriend. Now you're going down that path and then you think of suicidal, you know, taking your own life. And that's the tragedy of not being able to express your emotions.

• 5:54Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, I think the more I've learned about myself and just humanity in general, I really believe that masculinity is being in service. For me, you know, that's what I would think of as like a man and someone who's masculine is someone who serves other people. Serves himself for their dreams and then is of service to other people. It doesn't matter what, if it's a strong emotion, if it's compassion, if it's something else, like as long as they're in service. They might need to pull strength, they might need to pull compassion in the moment, but all of that makes us human.

• 6:24Jason Wilson?

  But that's why I say, I like the word comprehensive.

• 6:26Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 6:26Jason Wilson?

  Yeah, you know, a comprehensive man, basically you go in and out of each attribute, you know? I remember I was training in one martial art and my instructor asked, all of us says, who are you? And we say, I'm a warrior, I'm a king, you know, I'm a provider. And he started laughing and he says, next time someone asks you that, I want you to say, you're anything and everything that you have to be at any given moment.

• 6:49Lewis Howes?

  Ooh.

• 6:50Jason Wilson?

  And he was the first one I wrote about in my book. Actually, I'm there to learn how to fight and defend myself in the streets of Detroit. But he was showing me how to deal with my emotions. He was the first person that told me that I operated with a passive aggressive mindset. And so when he revealed that to me, like, man, I can be strong and sensitive, courageous and compassionate. And so that allowed me to experience, I'm experiencing a different type of life now. Growing up when I couldn't hold a woman's hand without getting dogged by my boys.

• 7:21Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 7:21Jason Wilson?

  Or getting beat down in Detroit. Yeah, you definitely, you couldn't, at a concert, a rap concert, you couldn't walk holding hands with your girlfriend.

• 7:27Lewis Howes?

  Without getting made fun of?

• 7:28Jason Wilson?

  Oh, yeah, or getting rushed, you know, beat down, seriously. And so now I'm studying to find out that holding hands actually releases pain in the body.

• 7:38Lewis Howes?

  Mm-hmm.

• 7:39Jason Wilson?

  So here it is, as men, we've denied all of these things, these great expressions that God has given us, just for the sake of being what we call a man, you know, and so.

• 7:49Lewis Howes?

  There's studies in science that show that like hugging someone for more than three seconds, like creates a sense of compassion and love and dopamine and comfort and all these things. So when we don't have physical touch, we're denying ourselves of these feelings that we really desire.

• 8:06Jason Wilson?

  Exactly, you know, that's, my whole thing about being comprehensive, meaning I could finally live from how my heart wants me to. So when you ascribe to just being masculine, you can only operate in those attributes. But if I want to love my wife or carry her or dance with her or tell her I love you or say you hurt me, I can't because those aren't masculine attributes. And so I refuse to be like limited to that anymore, you know? We misconstrue masculinity for being humanity.

• 8:33Lewis Howes?

  That's right. It's funny because if you're a man looking to attract the right partner or attract, you know, a great partner, my friend Matthew Hussey, who's like a dating, uh, relationship expert and coach to women, he's always talking about how for men, like, it's not that you're strong that's attractive, it's that you're strong and you're sensitive. You know, it's not that you're.

• 8:54Jason Wilson?

  My wife was eight years ago, yes.

• 8:55Lewis Howes?

  It's not that you're funny all the time and you're able to make me laugh. It's that you're funny and you can be like grounded.

• 9:02Jason Wilson?

  Yes.

• 9:02Lewis Howes?

  It's both and. It's the contrast that makes you even more interesting and more unique in the world as opposed to, I'm always strong, I'm always a provider, like, that gets boring.

• 9:11Jason Wilson?

  You can't be strong all the time anyway. And so what's amazing, I was talking with a friend of mine who desires to get married and I did a video and it was hilarious. And we were just talking, he says, man, she has to always see Batman, she could never see Bruce Wayne. And I said, what do you mean? And he says, well, I can't let her know that I'm, I, I lack confidence, or I'm depressed sometime in the mornings, or I have a long day at work. I may need to drink to reset myself. I said, well, what do you, what do you, what do you think she's there for? You know, and so with my wife, we got it together, together. You know, we got our first house together. We, of course, you get the children together, but everything, our nonprofit, without my wife, it couldn't happen. And so it's sad to see so many men miss what they could have, based on what they don't have.

• 9:57Jason Wilson?

  You know, another friend of mine, he says, uh, I want to wait till I have my ducks lined in a row. And I laughed at that. I said, when is the last time you seen ducks in a row?

• 10:05Lewis Howes?

  You're right, right.

• 10:05Jason Wilson?

  Do you know, within a matter, I think a matter of months, he married, uh, he got engaged to the woman of his dreams. And now they're all starting their own business together and everything, because he felt he had to have everything together.

• 10:16Lewis Howes?

  Had to have a certain amount of income and the job and then.

• 10:18Jason Wilson?

  If that was the case, that means everyone who has wealth or is rich, their marriages are great, and we know that's not true. It's, uh, misleading mantras are, are leading a man astray. You know, like the classic one, no pain, no gain. And obviously, sometimes pain is not meant for us to push through it. Sometimes it's meant for us to slow down and think through it. And so me being, I trained in martial arts for years, and just, and weight trained as well. I can't tell you how many injuries I have to this day because.

• 10:45Lewis Howes?

  Pushing through the pain.

• 10:47Jason Wilson?

  It's motivational tactics is actually hurting us as men.

• 10:50Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, I think the wise man listens to his body and his, his emotions and his, knows when to stop.

• 10:55Jason Wilson?

  Yes, sir, yeah. And ego, go ahead, go ahead.

• 10:57Lewis Howes?

  And checks their ego at the door. You know, I learned this over the last five years the hard way, because when I started doing CrossFit five, six years ago, I was just like, keep pushing, beat the competitor, you know? And then my back goes out for two months and I can't work out. The wise human is the one who listens and checks their ego. You can still be competitive. You can still strive to succeed and achieve and win or whatever. But when you feel something is off, if you're gonna get injured. Stop, you know, if you can deal with the pain, that's one thing, but creating an injury is another thing.

• 11:30Jason Wilson?

  Interesting, we talk about like, there's so much injury in football. You're creating injury, you know, but like with trauma is the same way, you know, it's like, if you had an all-star on your basketball team and say he fractured his ankle, you're not gonna throw him right back out there. Unfortunately, in society, when we experience an emotional fracture, we expect that we're supposed to just go back out and start our day right over and go again. Then we wonder why that broken heart never really heals, why the next relationship fails just like the previous one. Because we haven't allowed our time to get ourselves time to really heal, you know, and so that's the same also with our women as well, you know, it's like, it's hard when you've been let down by so many men and you have the right one coming and you're

• 12:14Lewis Howes?

  To trust, having to trust right away, yeah.

• 12:16Jason Wilson?

  All of us as humans in this society, we have to get up and keep going. You can't grieve longer than a week and then if you have bereavement time, that time is actually spent planning the funeral. So we really never have time to grieve and we wonder why we're more sad and we're always in a performance-based mode, you know, instead of just saying, I wanna live from who I am and not what I do. So that's very important. I'm hoping, all my mission is to let people identify the trauma and emotional pain so that we can release and get healed from it instead of living in it.

• 12:48Lewis Howes?

  You've been through a lot of trauma, you write about in your book. When did you realize that your life was filled with trauma? And how did you learn to start processing pain?

• 12:59Jason Wilson?

  That's a very good question, because I grew up expecting trauma was just a part of the black experience and it's not, you know, when I was in the eighth grade, a good friend of mine had gotten shot in the head, you know.

• 13:11Lewis Howes?

  An eighth grader?

• 13:11Jason Wilson?

  Yes, it was the first school shooting in Detroit history and a classmate was passing a gun around, small caliber, automatic, which is hard to really discharge if you don't know what you're doing and a bullet went off and shot her in the head. And you know, I didn't even cry and we were close. I didn't revisit that, man, until I wrote about it in a chapter. And it's hitting me now because a guy says, I need you to go back. You didn't grieve that.

• 13:40Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 13:40Jason Wilson?

  I literally went in my backyard and started throwing ninja stars. Because I didn't know how to process.

• 13:45Lewis Howes?

  Right afterwards.

• 13:46Jason Wilson?

  And in our communities, in the black communities, we don't have an abundance of counselors. So when a tragedy happens, it's maybe two social workers for 400 kids. So how do you help us process that? So you go from that to I go prior to my grandfather's lynching and beating. And then seeing it affect my mom, her anger and depression, then my brother being murdered. And then my other brother being murdered, then my best friend dropping of a heart attack. And great shape, beautiful guy.

• 14:15Lewis Howes?

  Forty year old, forty one.

• 14:16Jason Wilson?

  Forty one year old. Man, he was one of maybe five guys in the gym could bench press the 200 pound dumbbells. Beautiful guy, dropped dead because of the stress and all that he was holding.

• 14:27Lewis Howes?

  Emotional trauma.

• 14:27Jason Wilson?

  He couldn't let anyone know. And even I'm his best friend, he couldn't tell me because he was big D, he was strong. And so I really didn't realize that this was playing a role until my marriage was in jeopardy.

• 14:41Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 14:42Jason Wilson?

  I said, wait a minute, this is me, I caught myself. I mean, literally, when I could experience joy, I would be on the couch folded up, not in a fetal position, but like, I don't want to talk to you, I'm mad. And just stay there, and it's a beautiful day, my wife would take my kids out. I didn't, like, what's going on with you? And I didn't realize it until one day, I prayed for God to break me because I'm a strong willed person. And I know he needs to use me to help people. And people are so tired of religion and all this other stuff, like, can you just show me? Like Gandhi says, I love your Christ, but I don't like your Christians because they're not like your Christ. And so I said, God, can you please gracefully break me? Because I'm tired of fighting this war.

• 15:25Jason Wilson?

  What's going on in me that's stopping me from really living a powerful life? And that process started with me almost dying from a shoulder surgery. Wow, when was this? Two thousand and nine. And I knew something was gonna happen, so much so that I had my beard dyed. This is when I used to dye my beard, had my beard dyed and shaved. And my son's hair was cut, just in case I didn't make it out the surgery. The mortician would mess me up. And so I made it through the surgery. Thank God for my wife being there, because my lungs started filling up with fluid once they took out the IV and I think the trach for the anesthesia. And after that, my mother was diagnosed with dementia. And as a man, you know, you wanna be strong.

• 16:08Jason Wilson?

  But when you see someone you love so much, like with your father, deteriorate before your eyes, a man, a man who championed you, supports you, taught you when everyone else would tease you and just there for you. And now he's not half the man he used to be.

• 16:25Jason Wilson?

  You have to cry. You have to release it. And it was so heavy, Louis, I couldn't be this masculine man anymore. And that's when I said, oh, wait a minute. This is trauma. I can't just go throughout my day saying, it's okay. And a friend of mine told me one day, I says, man, why am I crying every day? What's going on? He says, Jason, that's your mom. It's okay.

• 16:55Jason Wilson?

  As, as a man, everyone wants to be hard, but we don't really wanna do anything that's hard. We're running a burning building to save our family. We're running gunfire. We'll jump out helicopters. We do everything. But expressing how we feel without bawling up a fist or punching holes in a wall, we don't wanna touch that with a telephone. Why is that? Because we've been indoctrinated to this, uh, form of manhood that's not really being a man. We're human. You can't tell a man that he can only be strong, a warrior, a provider. And if that's it, he's cut off half of his humanity. I mean, it's like having a, a dog or something and you only want him to be in attack mode all day. You're a dad.

• 17:40Lewis Howes?

  It's not a fun dog.

• 17:41Jason Wilson?

  It's not a fun dog and he won't, he probably won't even live that long.

• 17:44Lewis Howes?

  Right, exhausted.

• 17:46Jason Wilson?

  He had, a dog has to have the love, the caring. He has to have family where he can show a different side to. My brother was a veterinarian. That's why most dogs who are fight, fighting dogs, they don't live that long. Not only because of the, the, the type of abuse that they go through, but the lack of love around. You see it in some of the videos, I think you shared before, where do you adopt a pet? And you can literally see this dog, his emotions being thankful to the owner because he's not meant to live as a fighting pit bull.

• 18:18Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, I think anger really hurts us a lot.

• 18:21Jason Wilson?

  Yes, it does.

• 18:21Lewis Howes?

  It's wrong.

• 18:22Jason Wilson?

  It's a power though, it's a great power if you allow it to process. I love the scripture, it says, be angry, but do not sin. So anger is a great power, so think about what you're doing. Okay, for instance, why I admire you so much? You refuse to allow what has happened to you, the things that you went through to affect others. That's anger, so some anger now, I don't wanna see that happen. I hear it when you speak, you speak in power. And it's okay to process things with anger, but don't allow it to rule you.

• 18:52Lewis Howes?

  Don't act from anger.

• 18:53Jason Wilson?

  Like, exactly, well, you can, but you can't allow it to make you do something that can hurt someone.

• 18:58Lewis Howes?

  Right, right.

• 18:58Jason Wilson?

  It's detrimental to why you're angry, the, the righteous thing that you should do. Like Rosa Parks was angry, Martin Luther King was angry.

• 19:07Lewis Howes?

  Mm-hmm, but it was more from a place of love.

• 19:09Jason Wilson?

  Yeah, because of the mistreatment of a people. And then when I love her most, I call my brothers and sisters from another mother, they joined in in the movement as well because they were angry. So you can see how anger could be used in a beautiful way if we're allowed to process. And that's what I do with a lot of my boys in the video you just shared with my son boxing. I said, why are you crying? I'm not gonna yell at you, why are you crying? Let's go down this rapid trail, let's see. And if it's legit, let's, either we're gonna keep it if it's legit, if it's not legit, let's cast it and let's move on. And that's what men want, men just wanna be in a safe space where we can say, I'm hurting and not be condemned. You know?

• 19:48Lewis Howes?

  It's so hard though. It's so hard because we feel condemned when we express that we're hurting. We don't get rewarded for expressing hurt. We get made fun of, picked on, bullied. Sometimes, again, I'm not saying all women, but sometimes the women in our life are saying, "Man up. I need you to be strong right now."

• 20:06Jason Wilson?

  But they don't understand when you say, "Man up," you're insinuating that he's not doing something right. So I don't even like the word "man up." I like the word "man down." Basically, let's shed this masculinity, just living out of masculinity. It's a time to be masculine. Again, but I want men to operate in being comprehensive, a human. So you're right, it's like with my wife. Could you imagine how I felt even yesterday? You know, but that was a process to say, "That hurt me." I'd rather say that than punch holes in the walls like I used to. And I gotta go back and repair it.

• 20:38Lewis Howes?

  Right, right, yeah.

• 20:39Jason Wilson?

  But it's amazing, you know, I find that women, good women, okay? We have to be real specific there. Same thing with saying, "Good men." That they appreciate when a man expresses that side of himself.

• 20:53Lewis Howes?

  So what should a man do if he expresses a hurt side of himself and his female partner doesn't accept it? Or makes him wrong? Or is scared of it? Or, you know, whatever it may be? How do you get through that?

• 21:10Jason Wilson?

  Well, for me, you have to find the peace within yourself. So if I cry, I remember one time I was in an event and I was moved by something that happened on stage and I started crying and it's a lot of just guys that are strong, you know? I think we was at a weightlifting competition or something. The guy who did a demonstration. I was comfortable in my humanity. In M-A-N, all caps, because I'm comprehensive. So if you're not comfortable with who you are, you're always going to be performance-based. And so I got tested before when I was crying one time. At another event, I was helping youth and a guy thought he could just come and just try to body slam me, you know?

• 21:53Jason Wilson?

  I'm in a, I saw a young man just want to give his life to God and it moved me. I had to grab this boy before I knew it and put him in a control hole.

• 22:02Lewis Howes?

  He tried to body slam you because you were crying?

• 22:04Jason Wilson?

  Yes. He thought I was weak. He thought I was weak. He's like, "Oh, this is a great moment to take me." Yeah, seriously.

• 22:10Lewis Howes?

  Just because you were crying?

• 22:11Jason Wilson?

  Yes. And this was the first time I cried in front of a group of men. This was years ago. Before I could control him, Louis, before I knew it, I had tossed him over my head.

• 22:22Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 22:23Jason Wilson?

  Because of the judo techniques I knew.

• 22:26Jason Wilson?

  And I said, oh, no. And before he got down, I grabbed him and I put him in a rear naked choke. Now, the thing is that, I said, wait a minute. There's nothing wrong with me crying.

• 22:37Jason Wilson?

  But my reaction was wrong. Okay, so even though I was in the fear of my life, I was more embarrassed that he was trying to call me a punk, pretty much.

• 22:48Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, of course.

• 22:48Jason Wilson?

  And so, um.

• 22:49Lewis Howes?

  So you tried to make him look like a punk, yeah.

• 22:51Jason Wilson?

  I had to, you know, but, but as I grew past that.

• 22:54Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 22:55Jason Wilson?

  Now, when I cry in front of my students, fathers, I give them the freedom to cry.

• 23:00Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 23:01Jason Wilson?

  And so in front of you, I could cry on cameras. It doesn't matter anymore because I'm free, man. I'm, I don't live from, uh, what I do anymore. I was performance based. I would work 12 hours in a studio trying to make the hit records and all this other stuff. Even as I got into working with youth and our nonprofit, then I realized, why am I doing this? Because of the lack of affirmation I received from my father and other men that I desired it from.

• 23:27Lewis Howes?

  So you were doing it to gain affirmation?

• 23:29Jason Wilson?

  Yeah, from, from people, like, that's what people pleasing comes from, is we're trying to.

• 23:34Lewis Howes?

  We're afraid of the judgments of others.

• 23:35Jason Wilson?

  Exactly, but it's like, I know who I am. This is one thing that's interesting, um, a celebrity, I'll leave nameless, and I wanted to text him a heartfelt message because something he had did was very powerful and impacted me. And someone says, you know, you shouldn't text him all of that because he's busy, this and that. And I simply said, if I can't text him this, he can't be my friend. Because this is who I am. I love hard. And because I love hard, you have a committed friend. You got someone to go to war with you. You got someone to cry with you, someone who will pray with you. So I have to operate in the fullness of who I am, and that's what men are scared of. See, the conflict comes when, because we feel it. You feel it in a relationship.

• 24:17Jason Wilson?

  You want to love without limits, but you're guarded, and that's where that conflict comes in.

• 24:22Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 24:22Jason Wilson?

  To actually say, you know what? I'm gonna try being, I'm a, I'm a exercise of masculine attribute. I'm going to be bold in loving my wife without fear. You see how you can use the masculine? Yeah, so that's what I do, you know? I didn't wanna go to my wife last night, cause to me, I wasn't wrong. I went, I said, let's pray, and we praying like this, like, God, you know? I was, it was hilarious, she mad and I'm mad. But I, I'm tired of losing, man. I can't keep doing the same things over and over. I, with my daughter, you know, it, um, the years, she needed me to love her.

• 25:05Jason Wilson?

  You know, growing up, you want, you wanna protect your daughter, you wanna discipline her. But after a certain age, a daughter needs to know you love her. You know, instead of saying, why are you with that guy? He's no good. I need to say, princess, you're so precious to me, you know? What is so attractive about this guy? It's a different tone, it, it, it conveys a different message. And I refuse to allow me to stay there in that relationship with my daughter. And so, one day, I came to her, I fell to my knees. And I say, I'm sorry for everything I've done. She says, well, Dad, you're just trying to be overprotective. No, I was able to trace it back to the wounds that were inflicted upon my heart by my own father. And so, you have a lot of good men who are hurting.

• 25:51Jason Wilson?

  And they're really, I don't think this is an uphill battle, Louis. They're ready to release it, man. They just. They're tired. It's right here, um, the guy from Saturday Night Live just posted it. He doesn't wanna live anymore, the actor. Men are tired, man. Emergency rooms now are seeing an influx of mental health issues. Cause there's nowhere for us to go. And so, we're tired of being judged. The barber shops aren't even safe because everyone there is wearing the mask of masculinity.

• 26:18Lewis Howes?

  Putting up a front, making fun of each other, whatever.

• 26:21Jason Wilson?

  That's why I love your documentary, man. And you did a great job because you allowed yourself to be vulnerable. You didn't boast in you being tough. You show what really happens when you're not really taking care of yourself and living from what you really want to, you know, living from the heart within you.

• 26:38Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, thanks, man. So how do we, if someone is listening to this and they feel like, I'm tired. I've been suffering for too long. Maybe I've got some past traumas. Maybe I've been hurt. Maybe I've hurt other people. Maybe I've done things I'm not proud of. How can men start to process? What's the first couple of steps to? It's a lot of stuff that men have gone through and have been holding on to for a long time.

• 27:01Jason Wilson?

  Absolutely, yes.

• 27:02Lewis Howes?

  So how do we just, it's not that easy to be like, okay, I'm just gonna let go.

• 27:04Jason Wilson?

  That's true. I mean, I can easily say, you know, my best advice would be to get a counselor that you can trust. That would be number one. But we're not gonna do that right off the bat. And so what I had to learn how to do was allow myself time to sit still and to allow myself to feel, you know? Why did it hurt you so much earlier? When someone just say cut you off on a freeway or something? If I don't process that at night, it carries over into the next day. So for me, and I would tell you.

• 27:34Lewis Howes?

  For years and years.

• 27:35Jason Wilson?

  Exactly, yeah. And then the next situation, you may wanna pull over and say, let's fight. Because you didn't allow yourself time, right?

• 27:42Lewis Howes?

  I've almost got in a fight here in L.A. Before I started like processing all this stuff.

• 27:47Jason Wilson?

  You almost got in a fight a lot of times, that's how for your documentary.

• 27:51Lewis Howes?

  For one time, I was in traffic and I literally chased someone down.

• 27:56Jason Wilson?

  Are you serious, man?

• 27:57Lewis Howes?

  This happened like, what was this, maybe five and a half years ago? This is when I knew like my life was, like something was wrong with me. Because I was driving like a few blocks away. I don't think I told this story. I was driving and when you stop at a stop sign, you typically look left, right? To see who's coming. And I pulled too far forward and I guess there was a runner coming by on the right. So I turned and he was like coming up. And he like stopped, then he punched the car, right? Cause he was like, why didn't you see me type of like action?

• 28:28Jason Wilson?

  Okay.

• 28:28Lewis Howes?

  No. That was a trigger. That was like, that was like abuse in the past trigger.

• 28:34Jason Wilson?

  Yes, yes.

• 28:34Lewis Howes?

  So he starts running. I screech out of there and chase this guy out of my car, right? This is stupid, I'm not proud of this. I chase him down, he starts running away. I chase him down, I start screaming, I'm like, "Stop, let's talk man to man," right? And then I finally like pull over and go after him. And he starts going the other way and I was just like, "It's a good thing he didn't come up to me because I probably wouldn't have had the control to like not want to fight him."

• 28:58Jason Wilson?

  And you probably wouldn't be here right now.

• 29:00Lewis Howes?

  Maybe, yeah.

• 29:01Jason Wilson?

  So with that said, so imagine starting at home, sitting still, processing it there and then being able to walk with it. So a lot in this country, a lot of training I've been through far as meditation, a lot of people in this country thinks meditation is concentration and it's not. You should be able to be in that same state, seated, laying down, standing and fighting. And people say, "Well, man, no, you're just, you're just a unique guy." No, I get angry when things like that happen. But I quickly start processing, it's like a computer, "Is this worth it? Go down the line, this is a process your emotions, are you feeling this, is this accurate? Why would you go here?" And before I even say anything, I can pull off.

• 29:43Jason Wilson?

  And so I would tell men to learn to sit still and express how you feel. Express the pain to say if you're married and your wife says something to you early at work. I always say, I tell my men to always go to her before you go to bed. You know, I'm taught through the scriptures is do not let the sun go down on your wrath. You know, basically don't hold on to anger that long. Another proverb I love is like anger is like hot coals in lap of a fool, only he gets burned. And so I would tell men first to sit still and process how you're dealing with. How are you feeling? Why you felt that way? Write it down and revisit it so you can see and start tracing what triggered you.

• 30:28Jason Wilson?

  And that's the, that's the beginning steps.

• 30:30Lewis Howes?

  When I started to process all my past and all my hurt and pain, it was the first time I was able to go to sleep, like within a few minutes. My whole life, it would take me like an hour, two hours to go to bed. I would try to go to bed early, it didn't matter how hard I worked out or how tired it was. It was rare if I fell asleep within 10 minutes. And then about five years ago, when I started to fully process it all. And then at night, I would sit down and either to myself, write down what I was grateful for from the day, or express it to my girlfriend at the time and say what I was grateful for. It was like I could complete the day in peace and go to sleep, as opposed to pain, or fear, anxiety, or anger, which is what I was living in for 25 years.

• 31:13Jason Wilson?

  Every time I come home, man, I lay down on my back, my legs folded, and allow myself just to release everything that's happened. I'm okay. I've given my best for the day. I'm not staying up late because I have to get up early. And I'm done. It's finished. And so that's the benefit of being able to not be a slave to your emotions. Another one of my martial arts instructors told me, "Emotions are great servants for poor masters."

• 31:39Lewis Howes?

  You have that according to you, yeah.

• 31:40Jason Wilson?

  Yeah, and so I tell a lot of my students, they come, "I'm tired. I don't feel like training today." I said, "I don't want to be here either, you know."

• 31:46Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 31:46Jason Wilson?

  I said, "But when is the best time to be tired?" They were like, "At home, when I'm laying down." I said, "Exactly. So you need to rule that emotion right now, because it can injure you if you're acting, if you're lazy in someone's storm." Another thing I'm real big on is applying emotional stability throughout our days.

• 32:11Jason Wilson?

  One of my pet peeves was when I go with my family to a nice restaurant and I get bad service. And so how many times do we leave a restaurant angry, didn't experience the night that we desired? And we didn't really articulate how we feel as men. We mad, we eat, "I'll never come back again. Let's get out of here." And we talk about it even all the way home. What I do now is when I see the waitress or waiter come over and I can tell, they're not here. They're not present with me. They're either something happened with the last table, or they may be having a bad day. I say, "Hi, excuse me. I'm with my family and I'm really paying to have a great experience. And it seems like you have a lot on your mind. Can you please get someone else to help us?

• 32:53Jason Wilson?

  Because I really want my money's worth and I really want to enjoy my evening." My daughter can tell you, my wife can tell you. Every time I do that, they say, what's wrong? Can you, is something, you can see it on me? I'm like, yes. Then they talk to me. My daughter's not doing well in school and I had to shake it off and come here and help, you know, serve people. And that's a hard job, man. You have to put everything aside. Your tips are based on your promptness and your attitude. But you have problems as well. So when I give them an opportunity to express it, by me being able to express myself without being irate. Or making them wrong, or? There's one guy was just so troubled about paying for school. And I said, look, man, you know, I don't want to infringe on what you believe.

• 33:38Jason Wilson?

  I said, but what's your faith? He says, I'm a Christian. I said, okay, cool. I said, me and my wife, we're gonna act like we're ordering, but we're gonna pray. So we're praying, but we're acting like we're ordering food. We had the best experience ever. And he says, man, thank you so much. I needed that. My day is a hundred percent better. But that's all because I learned how to express the emotion. And the same, like so many men want to be the best lovers to their wives, right?

• 34:04Jason Wilson?

  I hate my daughters in here, but she here anyways. I always considered, you know, every man considers himself a great lover, right? Okay. But when you get married, okay? You know, you're making love to your wife, the same woman, over and over and over again. What takes it to another level? So for me, I found, and my wife can testify to this, is when I became in tune with my emotions and willing to be vulnerable. Now we're able to connect on a much deeper level. She has, her experiences have heightened like three times. You know, I remember early in our marriage, we would use the little toys in the room, okay?

• 34:48Jason Wilson?

  And I didn't like those because to me it it it uh. They're Band-Aids. Not only that, it um it's like a replacement for me. Like, I can't really keep up with a rabbit toy, you know, I just I just can't. But when I learned, I decided to say, wait a minute, if this piece of whatever can do these things, I'm a spirit man, I can definitely take you there. But it took for me to get in tune and free. And not look at four players labor, but love, it's like that's my desire. Like, I can't do have make love to my wife without, I don't know, I'd rather her reach that place. Before, but because the connection is so much stronger.

• 35:33Jason Wilson?

  And once I became comprehensive and I'm able to express myself throughout every area of my life, man, it's uh it's a game changer. And although you and I were discussing earlier, there'd always be challenges. Sure. Uh but the person that can rule their emotions can master them all. So how do we rule our emotions? Practice ruling them. Um for instance, I say everyone wants to, you wanna get in shape, right? You wanna have a six pack. And so for me, uh my desire is to remain faithful to my wife until we're gone. You know, I was on a plane coming and I saw elderly couple holding hands, just comforting each other because of the turbulence, it's beautiful to me. So but we know we have temptations. And so one day when I was trying to get cut up,

• 36:18Jason Wilson?

  I saw in my cabinet a bag of Lay's potato chips. And I love Lay's, especially the plain ones unopened. Because of my relationship with God, I am a spirit man, his spirit is in me. And so I walked by, I said, well, you know what, two chips won't hurt me. But he knows my desire. He says, wow, that's interesting. If you can't deny those bag of Lay's, how you gonna turn down those Lay's? It's just chips. If I lose to that, how much easier will it be for me to lose to a woman? That's uh beautiful and attractive and say me and my wife getting in an argument and this woman follows me on social media and knows everything what makes me tick.

• 37:01Jason Wilson?

  They can fake it all they want. Now it's so easy now because they can just follow you. Say, okay, cool. I need to dress this way because he likes women who are modest. Oh, he's a man of God. Oh, I'm a Christian today. But I have to.

• 37:15Lewis Howes?

  Seduce you, yeah.

• 37:15Jason Wilson?

  Yeah, so again, we have many uh opportunities in life to practice ruling our emotions like road rage. You know, the guy cutting you off, it is not worth it. Learn to look down the road. You have to. In a matter of a second, you can't because you literally can lose your life.

• 37:36Lewis Howes?

  Everything.

• 37:37Jason Wilson?

  It's not worth it, man. Yeah, so.

• 37:40Lewis Howes?

  You started this um this nonprofit.

• 37:43Jason Wilson?

  Yes.

• 37:44Lewis Howes?

  Called The Cave.

• 37:45Jason Wilson?

  But the union is the nonprofit. The Cave of Adelum is the male academy. It's under his umbrella.

• 37:51Lewis Howes?

  Gotcha.

• 37:51Jason Wilson?

  Yes.

• 37:52Lewis Howes?

  And when did that start?

• 37:53Jason Wilson?

  Two thousand and three, I started the nonprofit.

• 37:55Lewis Howes?

  Got it. And The Cave has been, you know, uh talked about and then it's been in TV shows and movies and examples of, I think it was in This Is Us, too, right?

• 38:04Jason Wilson?

  Yes, This Is Us, it was our father-son, we called it the father-son of ceremony.

• 38:08Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, the ritual. Yeah, it's very powerful. What is, and what is that ceremony? Can you explain?

• 38:13Jason Wilson?

  It's an initiation process. So basically, we, we, we teach, train, and transform uninitiated boys into comprehensive men. And so, um I don't know if you've been initiated into manhood. Majority of us haven't, and that's why so many grown men are stuck doing childish things. And so, we take them through a series of basic training. They have to learn things about, of course, it's faith-based for us. They learn things about God, the Bible, how to rule your emotions on that level as well, as well as in the world. But then also, we challenge them physically because I use the arts and physical training. To break them down so their emotions can arise and that's what I really want. And the beauty piece is that when they pass their part, they still have not completed the test until their father comes on the mat. It's crazy.

• 38:57Jason Wilson?

  And there's the pushups with them. And so the fathers are really emotional because they desire that, they wish they would have had their fathers take them through this. So it's symbolic in saying that no matter what you go through, son, I'm gonna be here with you throughout the journey, pushing you. Just like your dad. Yeah. You know, and so um that's basically what the initiation is. And then once they pass there, they go through another five phases. And then they go through a final test where they're honored by our community as being men. What's the final test? Can you share it? Well.

• 39:34Jason Wilson?

  The physical or emotional test? It's comprehensive in this approach. So um they're trained on etiquette, grooming, basic construction skills. Um of course martial arts a combination of jujitsu, aikido, uh judo, boxing, just to test the emotions because

• 39:51Jason Wilson?

  you can fake it uh in uh intellectual intellectually based rite of passage program. You can do all the answers, answer all the questions, look the part, you're strong, you're ready to go, and now they send you off. Not in the cave of Adela, we're gonna test you. We're gonna see if you really know what you know. We wanna see if you really can grow that emotion. And so we challenge them in that way. And so they leave there um tested, meaning we have a saying, there everyone has a moment on the mat. Everyone will face their greatest fears, everyone will face their insecurities. You cannot escape it. And so my whole thing is to give you the test now before you go in life and take the final exam.

• 40:36Jason Wilson?

  And so could you imagine a- as you go through all of these phases? The final test is you go through, you're tested on all of these phases. It's a two day training and then you cross with your fathers in front of you. So you. It's powerful. Yeah, it's very powerful. And so um Wow. Something I always desired and the reason uh people say, man, how my, well, actually, my son said this. He said, uh, dad, how you, how did you become a great dad when your father wasn't? I said, son, I simply gave you what I longed for. And so as men, broken men, you know.

• 41:11Jason Wilson?

  Instead of living from my brokenness, start practicing living for what you long for, from what you've longed for. Um, it's the same, Frederick Douglass says it's easy to uh build up children or raise up children than it is to repair broken men. It's something like that. And I should love that quote. The problem is, I'm sure he didn't mean that we should leave men broken. And that's what's happening in society. We focus on the boys and the children and the men, you know, you just have to make it, fake it till you make it to your grave. And that's what men are doing.

• 41:45Lewis Howes?

  What would you say is your biggest insecurity still?

• 41:49Jason Wilson?

  Um.

• 41:52Jason Wilson?

  Dancing is one. Um, I wanna dance, I wanna, like I was a DJ, believe it or not, how can a DJ not know how to dance? But a DJ just has to mix. And so up here, I'm good. I could dance all day up here, you know?

• 42:04Lewis Howes?

  You mean the footwork, though?

• 42:05Jason Wilson?

  The footwork is like, okay, wait a minute, these have to move too? You know, so there's insecurity of being laughed at, you know, no one wants to be laughed at. In martial arts, the biggest issue with not executing a technique isn't that it's really complicated, it's the fact that you don't wanna look nasty doing it.

• 42:22Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 42:23Jason Wilson?

  Every man wants to look good doing a certain technique. But that's the problem, you're leaving ego outside. And so, I would say just, um, being, you know, the dancing piece, but I don't know if that's an insecurity for us, let me see, um.

• 42:39Lewis Howes?

  Don't you dance in martial arts, essentially?

• 42:41Jason Wilson?

  It is the same, you know, um, me and my wife were messing around, maybe a couple nights ago, I tried a little something, you know, um, but just, that's something I'm going to work through, so that's a prime example. Do I let that fear stop me? I can't, because it plays out in other areas of my life. Um, let me think, what is an insecurity? Man, honestly, man, still affirmation, man, um, just to be transparent with you.

• 43:08Lewis Howes?

  What do you mean by that? Receiving affirmation?

• 43:10Jason Wilson?

  Just, um, okay, put it this way, so.

• 43:14Jason Wilson?

  I trained in martial arts for over twenty-two years. Never attained my black belt in any of my disciplines. Still today. Still to this day. Why not? Because my basis was trained in a system where they taught us what belts were for. It really was never about the belt. It was about the knowledge of self, training yourself to become better. And then, but everyone wants that. It's like getting a degree. Right. It's like going to college for twenty years but never finishing. Yeah, so I didn't understand it until now. I'm like, well, this hurts, God. Why, why have you denied me? But I could have fought through these things and stayed with different arts. But it was a blessing that I learned a lot. You became comprehensive.

• 43:56Jason Wilson?

  Yes, comprehensive in my approach, but more so now that I am here where I am, no one can take credit for what I do except God.

• 44:06Jason Wilson?

  And, and although it hurts me, even to this day, I find myself fighting to go back. Because I love Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. That's my favorite now. But a mother told me this one day. She says, "You gotta get yourself out of the way of those boys." What she was telling me is, "You're living in the past, son. You have more than enough to do what you need to do." Another one of my martial arts friends who's a black belt in Jiu-Jitsu, he says, "Jason, you don't need another belt rank. You need four walls." And when I listened to him. What do you mean, four walls? I need my own space. Start teaching. Get from underneath this system. If, how are you gonna create something for now if you're training with dinosaurs?

• 44:50Jason Wilson?

  You have to evolve. That's another reason I love Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, because it evolves, it adapts. And I love the camaraderie and being around men, the struggle, the grapple. But I'm not called to be the master of any art. I always say, "I'm not a martial artist. I'm a man with a martial heart. A man who can love without limits, a man who won't allow the fear of being hurt to stop me from helping those who are hurting." You know, and so, I, I, you know, I didn't grow up with a father, man, so. Yeah. The affirmation piece, I think, will always be there. But I'm thankful for brothers like you, you know,

• 45:34Jason Wilson?

  who, you know, your messages, you know, when you DM me is very encouraging, man, even though. It's just something light. You say, "Hey, check this out," or whatever. But just for you to reach out to me is affirming, you know, just so you would know that. And that's what I need, you know. You need it. We all need it.

• 45:52Lewis Howes?

  Absolutely. That connection, yeah.

• 45:54Jason Wilson?

  Yeah, and that's, I would say that's still a sore spot in me.

• 45:59Lewis Howes?

  Interesting, okay.

• 46:07Lewis Howes?

  What's your biggest insecurity as a father? Now that your daughter has moved away to the big L.A. city?

• 46:14Jason Wilson?

  Yeah, not being able to get to her in 20 minutes. As I wrote in my book, I used to try to be God in her life, you know.

• 46:25Lewis Howes?

  You used to try to be that?

• 46:26Jason Wilson?

  Basically controlling her destiny, making sure you can't, you know, and that, see, I was so religious, man, that she would have a vision or an idea. If it wasn't in the Bible, it wasn't from God. If it wasn't in the Bible, it wasn't from God. That's why so many kids run away from God in churches, because it's like, this is condemning. It doesn't really...

• 46:50Lewis Howes?

  Or judgmental.

• 46:51Jason Wilson?

  It's condemning. It's like, you know, you gotta do this, this and that. And then typically, the person who judges that way don't even live that way. So here it is, I'm that way, trying to be controlling, worrying, like I can control what my daughter does. And I had to apologize and get out of God's way and say, "Hey, He created us all to be individuals." And it was very tough for me to even resolve in my spirit that she's gonna be in L.A. But I had to learn that at every stage in life, we have to learn to let go. So when she was going into high school, I had to learn to let go. When she went to college, I broke down crying, packing my truck.

• 47:35Jason Wilson?

  I had to learn to let go. Now I got a beautiful daughter who's intelligent. And, I mean, she, when I mention your name, she, he's on my vision board, this, this, this, I'm like...

• 47:48Jason Wilson?

  Because I may not agree with it doesn't mean it's not what you're supposed to do.

• 47:52Lewis Howes?

  Hmm, you don't agree with her, me on her vision board?

• 47:56Jason Wilson?

  You the man.

• 47:58Jason Wilson?

  Her just being here is like, I know you, I know what you're saying, but so what, dad doesn't agree? What I need to let her know is, I get your back.

• 48:07Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 48:08Jason Wilson?

  If it all doesn't go well, I get you a ticket today and you come home.

• 48:12Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, of course.

• 48:13Jason Wilson?

  So just giving them an opportunity. I'm a dad, man, I'm a protector, you know, I run through a wall for mine, you know, but it's not good for my health, so I have to learn how to express it, cry, so that I can love. Cause if I hold that in, she'll call me, oh, I don't wanna talk to her, she's not listening to me, all of that stuff. But when I can cry and release the stress hormones from out of my body, I'm able to reset emotionally and say, okay, let me look at this again. And so, and that's how we're able to have a good relationship that we have now.

• 48:49Lewis Howes?

  How often do you think men should cry?

• 48:51Jason Wilson?

  Well, I tell you this, and this is interesting, so women, now that the book is selling pretty well, and it hasn't even been released yet, they're messaging me saying, what can we do to help our men work through this? I say, get a lot of tissue, listen with compassion, and don't respond with condemnation. Cause it's gonna be a lot of crying. So I'm forty-eight.

• 49:17Jason Wilson?

  I catch myself crying, just thinking of something that hurt me. My mother just passed two years ago, which still isn't a long time.

• 49:27Jason Wilson?

  I think about my brother's not being here, like, man, he would be proud. That's worthy of tears.

• 49:34Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 49:35Jason Wilson?

  Because it hurts. Dr. William Frey said that he discovered that tears contain stress hormones, tears that are due to emotional stress. That's why when we cry from emotional pain, we feel better typically afterwards.

• 49:48Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 49:49Jason Wilson?

  So, many men, I say, we need an emotional enema, cause we're backed up. And so, once we have that enema, as our women, you know, and this is, and as you said earlier, it's unfortunate.

• 50:03Jason Wilson?

  It seems like our women always have to be there for us. You know what I mean? It's like, you hear the stories, well, if it wasn't for my wife, and when she stayed here when I was drinking and hanging out, partying. And they're like, okay, what about my issues?

• 50:15Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 50:16Jason Wilson?

  You know, and it's like, well, for African Americans, for instance, you know, I'm probably just two generations away from slavery.

• 50:23Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 50:24Jason Wilson?

  So how do I expect my father to know how to father? He doesn't. I was talking to another friend of mine who's Irish American. He talked about just the bravado that came with being Irish and how his fathers didn't love their mothers and things like that, and how it affected him, and how he has to work through his emotions. But then when you find out there's an old proverb, uh, proverb, an Irish proverb that says, never trust a warrior who cannot cry.

• 50:52Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 50:53Jason Wilson?

  Then when you look at Sir Lancelot, the stories of him crying over, I can't think of the name of the woman he was in love with, or the samurai crying in war and then after war. So something happened in society and it's really hard to pinpoint, but men crying, we should cry as often as we feel we need to.

• 51:15Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 51:16Jason Wilson?

  It's no judgment, man, you know, the greatest warriors can cry in front of, you don't, you don't, this is, this is what's comical. So you could win, me and you could win the Super Bowl. We're part, we're, we're playmates, uh, on the same team, players on the same team. We could cry, and no one says a word.

• 51:35Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 51:36Jason Wilson?

  But yet, when I experience trauma, my friend gets shot, or a relationship, a breakup, I get demoted from a job. Why do you, this is what crushes my spirit. When I see my, uh, brothers from another mother, other ethnicity besides African Americans, specifically, we say, white, successful bankers, and you hear it, they lose their job, then they go home, kill themselves and their entire family.

• 52:03Speaker 03

  It's crazy.

• 52:04Jason Wilson?

  What's happening is, is that they can't release the pain. They've been put on this pedestal that they have to perform. There is no fail. So I lost my job, I'm done, we're gonna lose the college tuition or something, there's no reason to live, and that's a lie. Because you made it. There is a difference in our culture. You know, I was a friend, good friend trained in Aikido. He was telling me, it's different for you.

• 52:36Jason Wilson?

  It's harder. You have to work harder. It seems like the system is against you. So you can lose your job and you come back. And he admired the fortitude. And I had to tell him, you can lose your job and come back. Because you're able to manifest the work ethic to get it. You can get another job. It's not over. And until we as men, regardless of ethnicity, can say, okay, this does not define me. Me not winning a championship does not define me. Me not getting the pay raise does not define me. See, we allow this world to define what success is for us.

• 53:19Jason Wilson?

  My success, I've already succeeded. There is no failure anymore. I have a family. I have a beautiful daughter and son, and I'm healthy, healthy. I am successful.

• 53:31Lewis Howes?

  What should define us?

• 53:35Jason Wilson?

  In my opinion,

• 53:40Jason Wilson?

  who we really are.

• 53:43Jason Wilson?

  Who we are behind closed doors when no one is looking. How the people see us and love us. The person that I could be here and everyone say, man, that's a really cool guy, man. He's seen, I would love to talk with him. But if I go home and I'm an a-hole,

• 53:59Jason Wilson?

  what is that? So to me, when those close to you, when the lights are off and no one is looking, and you're the same person,

• 54:08Jason Wilson?

  you've arrived. Because it doesn't matter where you go. There is no pressure anymore. I'm free. I may have a little nervousness coming to an interview or whatever. But after a moment, I say, hey, what's the worst that could happen? I got my family. Even if I lost my family, just say the tragedy, God forbid. For me, being a spiritual man, I know I see them again. You know, you can't threaten me with heaven. And so to find that, that place in life, every man desires it. We just have to learn to live from it.

• 54:45Lewis Howes?

  Wow. What would you say, Alexis, is the greatest lesson your dad ever taught you?

• 54:54Speaker 03

  It's so many.

• 54:58Speaker 03

  Well, I feel like I've adopted many things from him, even like my vision statement to do something that I haven't seen.

• 55:06Speaker 03

  But to just be authentically me.

• 55:08Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 55:09Speaker 03

  Like if I can't be Alexis, then like, like you said earlier, like, we don't need to be in relation with one another. Because I can't be myself.

• 55:17Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 55:18Speaker 03

  I feel like I've learned so much, but I think the, the top thing that I admire is his ability to genuinely be him.

• 55:25Lewis Howes?

  Mm-hmm.

• 55:26Speaker 03

  Like if, and I feel like that, that plays a role in everything I do.

• 55:30Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 55:30Speaker 03

  If I can't show up as me, it's, it's no point.

• 55:32Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, that's cool. Wow, man.

• 55:34Jason Wilson?

  You do a great job with that.

• 55:36Lewis Howes?

  Showing up as me?

• 55:38Jason Wilson?

  Put it this way, well, that's why I want to get to know you more.

• 55:40Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 55:41Jason Wilson?

  Um, because I see other things, you know?

• 55:43Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 55:43Jason Wilson?

  I see a smile, but I see hurt.

• 55:44Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 55:45Jason Wilson?

  And, uh, I have hurt as well.

• 55:48Lewis Howes?

  Mm-hmm.

• 55:48Jason Wilson?

  The key is being able to process it.

• 55:50Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 55:51Jason Wilson?

  And keep processing and keep releasing.

• 55:53Lewis Howes?

  It never goes away. I mean, it goes away. It's always there and as a reminder.

• 55:59Jason Wilson?

  Mm-hmm.

• 55:59Lewis Howes?

  And it could come back as pain if you don't.

• 56:02Jason Wilson?

  If you don't release it, so.

• 56:03Lewis Howes?

  Continue to release it when it comes up.

• 56:05Jason Wilson?

  Yeah, or again, like a breakup.

• 56:07Lewis Howes?

  Mm-hmm.

• 56:08Jason Wilson?

  I could grieve. I'm really grieving for me losing my mother two years ago.

• 56:12Lewis Howes?

  Mm-hmm.

• 56:13Jason Wilson?

  Not really over a six-month relationship.

• 56:15Lewis Howes?

  Mm-hmm.

• 56:16Jason Wilson?

  But it's compounded because I haven't had time to really release that.

• 56:21Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 56:22Jason Wilson?

  And so as helpful as you are to millions of people, um, I can tell you wake up like, man, I gotta say something to inspire somebody. You're wired that way.

• 56:32Lewis Howes?

  Mm-hmm.

• 56:34Jason Wilson?

  My thing for you as your friend is to make sure my friend Louis is saying, hey, uh, Jay, let's sit down. I just want to flush some things out.

• 56:41Lewis Howes?

  Mm-hmm.

• 56:42Jason Wilson?

  That's what I would want.

• 56:43Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 56:44Jason Wilson?

  That's admirable that you want to be a change agent for this world. But I want to make sure you're a change agent for Louis.

• 56:50Lewis Howes?

  Absolutely.

• 56:51Jason Wilson?

  And that's, that's major, man.

• 56:53Lewis Howes?

  I appreciate it.

• 56:53Jason Wilson?

  Yeah, for sure.

• 56:54Lewis Howes?

  Yeah. And I, I have the awareness to have really good coaches and friends and spiritual mentors and.

• 57:01Jason Wilson?

  Yes, you do.

• 57:02Lewis Howes?

  That I lean on a lot.

• 57:03Jason Wilson?

  Yes.

• 57:03Lewis Howes?

  And, and, and talk with and process a lot with because I know that if I hold it in, then I'm going to suffer. And I know that I don't have all the answers and people are much wiser and more experienced than me, so I'm always. Reaching out to them and, you know.

• 57:20Jason Wilson?

  Yeah, I'm the same way. I, uh, I listen to a child, man. You know, um, I don't know it all and I don't really wanna know it all. I just wanna learn and keep growing and, uh, you know, it's, it's, it's, it is a journey and, um, but I said this in the, in the video about suicide. Just because something is wrong with you doesn't mean something is wrong with you. So, just because I'm sad today or I'm depressed, many people shun those emotions because that's gonna stop me from attaining my goal. I gotta follow the seven steps to happiness.

• 57:56Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 57:57Jason Wilson?

  I hope that's not a book. I'm just joking.

• 57:58Lewis Howes?

  I know.

• 57:59Jason Wilson?

  I was just, I was just, just saying in general. What if that sadness or being depressed in that moment is to get you out of a bad relationship? But if you keep faking it.

• 58:10Lewis Howes?

  Get you to wake up and learn, yeah.

• 58:12Jason Wilson?

  But if I gotta keep, stay happy, gotta keep going, it's all good. You're gonna miss that blessing that could come from you sitting still in that sadness. To say, wait a minute, why am I sad? Oh, he said this, that was offensive, or she did that, that was offensive, or this happened with this business transaction.

• 58:31Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 58:32Jason Wilson?

  I shouldn't do that anymore or speak up in a way where, um, they will know if that happens again, we're gonna have to cut negotiations.

• 58:40Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 58:41Jason Wilson?

  Yeah, so.

• 58:42Lewis Howes?

  I love this, man. Um, I'm gonna make sure you guys get this book. Just came out recently or it's pre-ordered right now?

• 58:48Jason Wilson?

  It's pre-ordered now. Actually, I'm sorry. It's available at Barnes and Nobles.

• 58:51Lewis Howes?

  There you go. It's called Cry Like A Man: Fighting For Freedom From Emotional Incarceration. And, uh, it's funny because I've spoken out of prison and, uh, a few times. I've actually visited a prison many times. My brother who you'll meet, he's actually here. He was in prison for four years. And, uh, you saw him perform, I think, on stage.

• 59:09Jason Wilson?

  Yes, I sure did. Yes, yes.

• 59:11Lewis Howes?

  And so I would visit him every weekend for four years when I was a child, eight years to 12 years old. And so I would go to a prison and, and I've been in a prison here in, in, uh, California in the last year a few times to do some workshops on the mask masculinity and. It was always fascinating to be in a prison. Because sometimes there are men behind bars who are emotionally free. Not all of them, but there are, you meet some that are so at peace and are emotionally free and are able to cry with their families there and are able to express their feelings.

• 59:44Jason Wilson?

  That's very good.

• 59:45Lewis Howes?

  Finally, and there are men who are in the outside world who are prisoners in their hearts and their minds. And, you know, there's nothing worse than being free physically but emotionally trapped.

• 59:59Jason Wilson?

  You know, we cry, it just looks different.

• 1:00:02Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:02Jason Wilson?

  We, it may not be physical tears, it's pornography, addiction to porn, alcoholism, spouse abuse.

• 1:00:10Lewis Howes?

  Drugs, whatever, yeah.

• 1:00:11Jason Wilson?

  It's gonna come out, so why not allow it to come out the healthy way?

• 1:00:15Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:16Jason Wilson?

  And, and that's what's happening, man, you know, we was doing a study on like, um, like mass murderers and violent crimes and it was interesting, the only, the few times we saw women, like it's very rare you see a woman mass murderer.

• 1:00:31Lewis Howes?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:00:32Jason Wilson?

  Okay? We started noticing it was in tandems, it was a man and a woman.

• 1:00:37Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 1:00:38Jason Wilson?

  I mean, this is some interesting stuff, and so could you imagine if men learned how to process these emotions before they go grab a gun and go shoot up a place?

• 1:00:48Lewis Howes?

  They probably wouldn't shoot up a place.

• 1:00:49Jason Wilson?

  They just need a way to process, it was a guy, well, I don't even wanna name him, he killed an elderly man on Facebook Live. And he says it, cause I teach about it in my workshops, he says, man, I know this is-

• 1:01:03Lewis Howes?

  He was on Facebook Live and he killed someone?

• 1:01:05Jason Wilson?

  He killed the guy.

• 1:01:06Lewis Howes?

  Oh my gosh.

• 1:01:07Jason Wilson?

  It's called the Easter massacre or something like that.

• 1:01:10Lewis Howes?

  Oh my gosh.

• 1:01:11Jason Wilson?

  You know, but he said, he's deceased now, but he said, this is some punk stuff, man, and in the video, he's ranting that people wouldn't listen to him. My girl just shuts me off, ignores me, and that's why I'm gonna go on this killing spree. He literally says that.

• 1:01:30Jason Wilson?

  And so I'm not saying that's why all mass murderers do what they do. But in those cases,

• 1:01:37Jason Wilson?

  you need an outlet, man.

• 1:01:38Lewis Howes?

  That's it. If you don't have an outlet, you'll create an outlet.

• 1:01:41Jason Wilson?

  You're gonna create one, and now look at you. You know, and so, um, that's, you know, like I say, crying like a man isn't about just shedding tears. It's about releasing the emotional pain and trauma we've held in our heart and our minds for years.

• 1:01:53Lewis Howes?

  Setting yourself free.

• 1:01:54Jason Wilson?

  Yes, sir.

• 1:01:55Lewis Howes?

  You've got some amazing chapters in here. I really enjoyed going through it. I'm gonna finish the rest of it soon, but, uh, powerful stuff. Make sure you guys get it. Cry Like a Man. Uh, final few questions for you. This one's called the three truths. And I want you to imagine it's your final day here on this physical earth. You get to pick the day many years from now.

• 1:02:14Jason Wilson?

  Okay.

• 1:02:14Lewis Howes?

  Could be a thousand years, could be whatever you want it to be.

• 1:02:19Lewis Howes?

  But you get to leave the world with three final truths or lessons that you've learned. No one has access to your work anymore, your videos, your content. You've gotta take that with you. But you get to write down on a piece of paper three things you know to be true that would be the only thing you get to leave behind. What would you say are your three truths?

• 1:02:37Jason Wilson?

  Number one, there is a God. Clear. Number two...

• 1:02:46Jason Wilson?

  This is really good, man.

• 1:02:49Jason Wilson?

  When you love yourself for who you are, instead of what you do, there you will find peace, because peace is not an environment. Peace is within you. That's number two. And number three, family is a blessing. I never had it growing up.

• 1:03:08Jason Wilson?

  So I cry now because I'm so thankful that I have it.

• 1:03:14Jason Wilson?

  Growing up, and all you hear is, you know, you go through so much violence, you lose loved ones to gunshots. Good violence and just, uh...

• 1:03:24Jason Wilson?

  Not having a home, a traditionally stable home, everything is an adventure. And, uh, to have that for my kids and experience a love from a woman who loves me for who I am.

• 1:03:40Jason Wilson?

  Family is a blessing. And I don't want men to miss it because of their hurt and their pain and their insecurities.

• 1:03:51Jason Wilson?

  It is the greatest blessing a man could ever have. Everyone wants to be wealthy. Wants to create generational wealth, but you can't create one without a family. It's the greatest blessing God has ever given us.

• 1:04:06Lewis Howes?

  That's great. Those are powerful.

• 1:04:08Jason Wilson?

  Thanks, man.

• 1:04:10Lewis Howes?

  If there was a, uh... If there was a microphone in front of you right now and every man in the world got to put on headphones and listen to you, say something to all the men of the world. A message, one message. The switch turned on and they can hear you. What would be that message?

• 1:04:37Jason Wilson?

  Be free, be human. Express yourself. Live from the love that you feel and not the fear. Be free, be human. That's what I would tell them, because every man feels it. We're human beings. Stop allowing masculinity. Stop misconstruing masculinity with humanity. Live from your heart, love, and watch how much freer you'll become. That's what I would tell men.

• 1:05:12Lewis Howes?

  That's good, man. I want to acknowledge you for a moment, Jason, for just being the example, being the father that the world needs. Because I know that you didn't have the relationship with your father or the example that you wanted. And you're creating that for so many young boys, men, myself. And you're being an example of what's possible for us in this generation, in this time of mental confusion, emotional confusion, sexual confusion, stress, anxiety, so... I just want to acknowledge you for your heart, your kindness, your love, your generosity to humanity. It's very powerful and you're setting a great example for me as well. So I appreciate that.

• 1:05:54Jason Wilson?

  That means a lot.

• 1:05:55Lewis Howes?

  Of course, man. Where can we connect with you online?

• 1:05:58Jason Wilson?

  My handle is at Mr. Jason O. Wilson and for the Cave Over the Delta, they wanted to know more. But actually, just go to CryLikeAMann.com and eventually that's going to be a hub for mental and emotional health services for men, resources, a safe space where we can really be free.

• 1:06:16Lewis Howes?

  CryLikeAMann.com, you can get the book there, you can follow you there, you can see everything. Final question, what's your definition of greatness?

• 1:06:23Jason Wilson?

  My definition of greatness is the same as success. Every person has to define it. For me, it is being a servant of God, a loving husband, a faithful father, and a community servant, man. A lot of people congratulate me with a lot that's going on. It's not really celebratory to me because I'm on a mission. To me, this opportunity is like God dropping a pallet of ammunition in the middle of a battlefield. I'm not, yeah, hey, I'm not doing that. I have my rifle, whatever, M16 or AR-15, and I'm running to get this ammunition

• 1:07:07Jason Wilson?

  to go help more boys, men, and families. And so, I'm content. I'm taught to be content in all things. Does that mean that I don't strive for additional things? No. But I don't burn out chasing anything anymore like I used to. I'm okay with going to sleep if the five other things didn't get done. So, success is, for me, is having a family and being content, man. Life is too short to be chasing the win.

• 1:07:39Jason Wilson?

  Jason, appreciate it. Appreciate it. Appreciate it.

• 1:07:42Lewis Howes?

  There you have it, my friends. I hope you enjoyed this one. Such a powerful, moving, inspiring, and emotional interview with my friend Jason Wilson. Make sure to share this with your friends. LewisHowes.com/745. All the show notes and information is there. The YouTube video, everything else. You can get his book, Cry Like a Man. Check it out right now. It's a powerful read. And give it to a man in your life as well. Buy a couple of copies for some friends. And to bring things back to the beginning of this interview, Helen Keller said, although the world is full of suffering, it is also full of the overcoming of it. It does not matter what you've been through. It doesn't matter how much you've suffered.

• 1:08:24Lewis Howes?

  You have the ability to rewire your emotions, to change the story about what has happened to you, so that you are in control and have the power back in your life. And those situations and traumas don't have power over you. I love you so very much, and you know what time it is. It's time to go out there and do something great.