293: Toxic Relationships: Life After Armie Hammer with Elizabeth Chambers

What really happened behind the headlines? In a raw new interview, Elizabeth Chambers steps into the Serialously Studio and is finally breaking her silence. You may know her as the ex-wife of actor Armie Hammer, whose public downfall in 2021 sent shockwaves through Hollywood after explosive allegations of abuse, manipulation, and dark fantasies surfaced. While the world was watching, Elizabeth was quietly rebuilding her life, raising two children, and trying to make sense of the chaos. Now, she's telling her side of the story. In this powerful conversation, she opens up about the emotional fallout, the red flags she missed, and what led her to create her bold new series, Toxic, a deep dive into the hidden dynamics of psychological abuse. You won’t want to miss this!🔎Join Our True Crime Club & Get Exclusive Content & Perks 🔎 Join The Club: https://www.patreon.com/annieelise🎧 Need More to Binge? Listen to EXTRA deep dive episodes every week on Apple!https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/serialously-with-annie-elise/id1519456164🚩Announcements🚩Want to Catch Annie LIVE on Tour? 🎤 🎟Grab your tickets now for a city near you: https://annieelise.com/pages/tour🌸 SPRING MERCH IS OFFICIALLY HERE! 🌸Shop now at https://annieelise.com/collections/shop-allDon't miss out before your faves sell out! 🛒🌷Follow Annie on Socials 📸 🩷Instagram: @ _annieelise💜TikTok: @_annieelise🗞️ Substack: @annieelise💙Facebook: @10tolife⭐️Sponsors ⭐️Quince: Go to http://Quince.com/ae for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Shop Annie’s Closet & Must-Haves! 👗Poshmark: https://posh.mk/Tdbki6Ae0RbShopMY: https://shopmy.us/annieeliseAmazon: https://www.amazon.com/shop/10tolife?ref_=cm_sw_r_apin_aipsfshop_BKN1ZMCMEZHACVFQ2R75&language=en_USDisclaimer ‣ Some links may be affiliate links, they do not cost you anything, but I make a small percentage from the sale. Thank you so much for watching and supporting me.🎙️ Follow the podcast for FREE on all podcast platforms! Apple:https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/serialously-with-annie-elise/id1519456164Spotify:https://open.spotify.com/show/6HdheEH8WeMTHoe5da34qUAll Other Platforms: https://audioboom.com/channels/5100770-serialously-with-annie-eliseGet Involved or Recommend the Case 💬 About Annie: https://annieelise.com/For Business Inquiries: [email protected]*Sources used to collect this information include various public news sites, interviews, court documents, FB groups dedicated to the case, and various news channel segments. When quoting statements made by others, they are strictly alleged until confirmed otherwise. Please remember my videos are my independent opinion and to always do your own research. ••••••••••••••••••Disclaimer: The views and opinions expressed in this video are personal and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of any other agency, organization, employer, or company. Assumptions made in the analysis are not reflective of the position of any entity other than the creator(s). These views are subject to change, revision, and rethinking at any time and are not to be held in perpetuity. We make no representations as to the accuracy, completeness, correctness, suitability, or validity of any information on this video and will not be liable for any errors, omissions, or delays in this information or any losses, injuries, or damages arising from its display or use. All information is provided on an as-is basis. It is the reader’s responsibility to verify their own facts.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Annie Elise?

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• 1:43Annie Elise?

  Hey guys, I am so excited because we are finally going back out on tour and this is going to be our biggest tour yet. We are hitting a lot of cities, coming to a city near you, and this tour is going to be unlike the last tour and unlike any episode or case that we have ever presented. It's going to be an all-new exclusive case, an entirely new approach, interactive with you guys, and it is just going to be so great. I am so excited. Excited to connect with all of you guys. I am very eager for you to hear this case and it's just going to be an unforgettable night. So tickets are on sale now, but grab yours now before they're gone. You can get all of the information at annieelise.com. I will also link it in the show notes and I'm really excited to see you there.

• 2:27Annie Elise?

  So head to annieelise.com, grab your tickets and I'll be seeing you soon.

• 2:34Annie Elise?

  Hey, true crime besties. Welcome back to an all new episode of Serial Inslee.

• 2:57Annie Elise?

  Hey everybody, welcome back. I hope you are all having a fantastic Thursday and week. I am currently traveling right now, so because of that, I'm having some tech issues with my equipment. You know that I'm not the most tech savvy person out there, but that's okay. So in lieu of headline highlights today, I am actually going to release a brand new episode for you. It's one that I recorded a couple of weeks ago that I wasn't planning to release until next week, but here we are. So anyway, thank you guys for your understanding. I will be back with headline highlights next week and of course, the deep dive on Monday. But I hope you enjoy today's episode.

• 3:35Speaker 03

  Elizabeth Chambers has broken her silence about estranged husband Armie Hammer. Several women accused Hammer of sexual abuse, which he denied.

• 3:44Speaker 04

  What people like him do is like, they figure out what means the most to you and then they weaponize it.

• 3:49Speaker 03

  A firestorm was created around one message in particular that referenced cannibalism. Elizabeth was left to put the pieces of her life back together. Now she's hosting a new series called Toxic. When it comes to toxic relationships, no

• 4:09Annie Elise?

  Hello, hello, hello. Welcome back to an all-new episode of Serialistically with me, your host, Annie Elise. Hope you had a fantastic weekend. You're having a good week. You are ready to just hang out with me for a little bit, talk about some stuff, because I have got a very, very interesting episode for you today. I also want to just remind all of you guys, we are officially going out on tour. We announced it just recently. Tickets are already on sale. They're selling really fast, which makes me so happy. Like, I love that you guys are so excited, and I'm so excited to meet all of you. It's going to be unlike any episode, any tour we've done in the past, which we've only done one tour, but it's going to be

• 4:50Annie Elise?

  interactive. It's going to be an exclusive case. It's going to be a whole new approach to how we do cases, which I can't go into the details. You're just gonna have to come and see for yourself at the tour. But yeah, we are hitting so many different cities. It's our biggest tour yet. Tickets are now on sale, and you can get all of that information over at annieelise.com. Now, as I said, today's episode is one that I am really excited to share with you, because I just can't wait to hear your feedback on it. And I think you're really going to not only just like, value the information, but I think it's going to open up a lot of eyes. Um, maybe I guess I should have said eye-opening, but whatever. You get how we talk here. So today, I'm going to be joined by a very special guest. And

• 5:33Annie Elise?

  you know that we don't often have a lot of guests over on here, but I thought it was really important to have her join and share her story, because she hasn't really talked about her story in a big way out there. She hasn't shared too much about it. And we talk so much on this podcast about red flags, creating awareness, educating ourselves, knowing different signs to look for in toxic relationships. And she has really made it a mission of hers to explore the dynamics of different toxic relationships. And that all stemmed from coming out of her own, uh, very toxic relationship. So she's looking at the red flags. She's looking at different forms of abuse.

• 6:15Annie Elise?

  Abuse, whether it's financial, emotional, physical, mental, whatever it may be. So I am really excited to have her here and it is none other than the amazing, the beautiful, the incredibly talented and incredibly smart Elizabeth Chambers. Now you might recognize her from her very high profile marriage to celebrity and actor Armie Hamlin. Now you may know Armie from the several movies that he has been a big lead actor in. One of the ones that I know comes to mind for me is The Social Network, the Facebook movie. I think he actually, what, he played dual roles in that because he was playing the twins, right? The, whatever they call it, the Winkle Boston Twins or the something weird last name. And I apologize because that's actually their real last name. And here I am saying it's weird, but he played the twins.

• 6:59Annie Elise?

  He also was in Hotel Mumbai, which if you haven't seen that movie, that movie like irks me to my core. It is so terrifying and it's like my worst nightmare. But he has been in so many films and just so many other ones. So you may recognize him from those, but you also may recognize his name from being essentially canceled a few years ago. Now, before I get into that, into those allegations, the two of them were together for over 10 years. They also shared children together, but in 2021, their lives were completely turned upside down when their split went public. It was also followed by a wave of shocking allegations against Armie. Multiple women came forward accusing him of emotional abuse, coercion, and also violent sexual behavior,

• 7:42Annie Elise?

  including very disturbing claims of cannibalistic fantasies and manipulation, saying he's a cannibal. He wanted to do cannibalistic things to me, a lot of very disturbing allegations. So these allegations immediately made headline news worldwide. And because of that, Armie was effectively canceled. He was removed from multiple film projects and everything was just, you know, up in chaos. However, through it all, Elizabeth stayed pretty silent throughout all of it, just processing everything very privately while raising her children and trying to pick up the pieces of her life. And rather than retreating, she made a choice. She made a choice to understand. She dove super deep.

• 8:25Annie Elise?

  Into researching different topics like toxic relationships, psychological abuse, trauma bonds, red flags that we often see and that are overlooked. And now with all of that information, armed with so much research and so much education, she's sharing what she has learned and she's sharing it in a very powerful new show called Toxic. And in it, she's exploring how toxic dynamics really show up in relationships, oftentimes hard to even recognize. And she's sharing what it takes to not only escape them, but to truly heal from them. So today she's here to talk about her own journey, what really happened with her journey, behind the headlines, and also what she hopes that people will take away from her new show Toxic.

• 9:06Annie Elise?

  So joining me today is Elizabeth Chambers. Welcome to Serialishly. Hi Elizabeth, thank you so much for joining me today. I'm so excited to talk with you. I have a lot of questions, so it's okay with you.

• 9:17Speaker 05

  I'm a big fan of yours.

• 9:18Annie Elise?

  Oh, thanks.

• 9:18Speaker 05

  Bring it, bring it.

• 9:19Annie Elise?

  Awesome. Okay, so if we'll, we'll kind of just get right into it. So you went through a very public split, of course. And I'm sure some people are familiar with the headlines, maybe they've heard bits and pieces. But for anybody who hasn't, can you just share a little bit about just that chapter of your life, how you navigated it and what the turning point was for you? Where you felt like things need to change?

• 9:40Speaker 05

  Yeah, I mean, listen, I've never met a more traditional girl, right? Like I love the Christmas cards, I like families, everything. And I met the love of my life when we were 19 and 23. And every day I was like, how is this my life? Like I have the most amazing kids, the most amazing home. Like again, like, you know, I'm from the South, very traditional. Like I love the monograms more than anyway, like everything that exists has the monograms on it. And I just felt like I, I just loved my life. But, um, you know, with this perfection becomes, also comes this like fear that it's going to go away. Or I don't know, I look back at pictures where I'm was like, were you so happy? And I was, but I also like, I was holding on so tightly to this idea that I had. And, and it was like, I did have an amazing marriage. Um, and then one day my life turned upside down.

• 10:25Speaker 05

  And, um, you know, I was told that, he told me that he had an affair. And, um, like infidelity to me would normally be like a nonstarter, you know? But when you have two young kids and one that's just born, you really. Fight hard for your family. So we went to like extreme therapy, Esther Perel. Like I was like, if we're gonna do this, we're gonna do it right. And then the infidelity continued. And for me, that was just not, that just wasn't an option. And again, some, so many people are fine with it, or people can look the other way. But I just live in truth and that wasn't something that I could work with. So ended up filing, you know, a couple of years later, when I had, it was the last straw.

• 11:07Speaker 05

  And, and really, my focus was not on myself, because I knew I was gonna be fine, but it was on my kids. You know, divorce in of itself is traumatic. It is inflicting trauma on your children that you've brought into this world with the promise that you will never hurt them. Right? So you're like, now I'm making a decision and a choice. It's going to effectively hurt them. And that was something I really couldn't live with. So I became obsessed, like a crazy person, with figuring out how to minimize and mitigate this trauma. And I spoke to every family separation therapist you can imagine. I mean, I mean, I engage people in, you know, Upper East Side, New York, who is a Hasidic Jewish community,

• 11:49Speaker 05

  or a lady in Denmark, or London and Paris, like just people who were really recommended, who obviously didn't know me, they didn't know my kids, they don't know my story, they've never met them. But it was kind of one of those, it's just a research mission. And trying to take as much as I could from each one of them to figure out how to minimize it. And the overall theme is that, again, it's not about my hurt and my pain. It's about making sure that they have a solid father figure in their lives. And, and making sure that we're all the best we can be mentally, healthily, you know, all across the board. So that was so important to me. And now, I mean, five years later, we've like, you know, it was absolute hell for a really long time, especially because it was so public.

• 12:32Speaker 05

  We were living in the Cayman Islands and that was nice, because you know, you don't have headlines splashed. Yeah, you're removed. Yes, you still have the internet, but you can turn your phone off and pretend it doesn't exist. Yeah. But it still hurts. And it's just, it was so, it was so much. That said, I'm So proud of us like as a family and my kids are exceptional and extraordinary and um I mean we did we you know we we made it through uh that and there for anyone who's going through that would say like there's certainly light not only light at the end of the tunnel but the only way to get through it is to really go through it.

• 13:08Annie Elise?

  Yeah, go through the hard stuff.

• 13:09Speaker 05

  I mean going through if you're going through hell, just keep going like that's such a cliche, but it's so true and you have to you have to like feel it all. You have to live it all. You you there's just no shortcut. Um so thank God for I mean, there's so many amazing therapists that work with children and and again, they don't even at this point in their lives are eight and 10 like they don't have any idea as to what I went through.

• 13:32Annie Elise?

  Of course not. You've shielded them from that and they're just too young to know.

• 13:36Speaker 05

  Right, right. But I think it's also so important, you know, they just they have therapists once a week, but she is aware that I'm like want to preemptively give them the tools in their toolbox. Um so that's how the show really came about was looking at these family patterns, looking at um I look at my son, he looks so much like his father and his grandfather and his great grandfather. And um has the same last name and the same blue eyes. And I thought, you know, at the same time, this documentary came out that was I didn't really I didn't watch it, but it was made by someone in their family. And I was just like, this is my kid's last name.

• 14:09Annie Elise?

  Can you share a little bit about the documentary for people who maybe haven't heard of it and you don't have to go into the specifics, but you're citing how it was a changing point.

• 14:15Speaker 05

  It was Army's aunt and and she basically told her story and I wasn't privy to a lot of the information. She wrote a book and she told the story and I wasn't privy to that information. You know, you get married, you love their parents, you love, you know, you hear your family, their family history that's told you by the family. Um and so obviously every family has things and um but not every family has them written about. And so I really, I didn't know a lot of these things, but all I did know is that I have two children with this last name, with this DNA and um with the future of being exposed to all this information. So those are the three things I know, right? So all you can do is what you can do with the information you have.

• 14:58Annie Elise?

  Yeah.

• 14:58Speaker 05

  Um so I just for me and and again, like we go through life as moms feeling that. That challenges or any sort of trauma is a worse thing for our kids, but like truly it's not. They need, I mean adversity, kids need adversity. Not only is adversity good for kids, like it's necessary for them to build their toolbox. So that's like kind of my, that was my exciting takeaway in terms of doing the research on for them and for the show is, um, you know, why do people fall into patterns? What, how much does your childhood shape who you become, who you choose as a partner?

• 15:36Annie Elise?

  Mm hmm.

• 15:37Speaker 05

  Um, why are we brushing things under the rug when things should be discussed and open openly kind of, you know, broken down in the beginning of a relationship? Like we get into relationships so young.

• 15:49Annie Elise?

  Yeah.

• 15:49Speaker 05

  We don't know who we are in our early twenties. We haven't even had a chance to really like.

• 15:53Annie Elise?

  No, it's like your full, your frontal lobe is fully formed by what 25?

• 15:56Speaker 05

  Yeah, for males, I think it's like 32.

• 15:59Annie Elise?

  I feel like you're being generous.

• 16:01Speaker 05

  But they're still in progress. We're not sure. Um, but like, that's a thing. And so I, I'm, I'm grateful, honestly, now that I have the tools and that my children will have the tools and, and that's so empowering, right? Like you can run from your story, you can run from your truth, you can pretend it doesn't exist, which bless our parents heart. Like, of course they did. Women didn't even have credit cards until they were like, until what, 1977? Like, of course, they just brush it under the rug. They didn't have a choice.

• 16:29Annie Elise?

  Yeah.

• 16:29Speaker 05

  They couldn't, they had to stay in a relationship and everything had to be great because what's the alternative? Like facing it?

• 16:35Annie Elise?

  Well, I think you make a great point with that because not only are so many people used to or conditioned to brush it under the rug, but when you have young children, like you said, you were striving for perfection and it's like you want to just protect them. You want the full nuclear family intact. You hold on to the dream. And I think so many women and people, anybody can really. I think everybody can agree and understand that point of view. But then it's like, and I don't know if your parents stayed together, but speaking for myself, my parents divorced when I was very young. And so for me, I always take that element of it personally to I'm like, I don't care how bad things ever get. I don't want my kids to go through what I went through. But then to your point, it's like, yes, but they need to go through the adversity.

• 17:17Annie Elise?

  If they're better in a healthy dynamic and healthy co-parenting situation than unhealthy, which for anybody listening, don't start spreading rumors. My marriage is perfectly fine. I'm just saying it's like, there's so many reasons for wanting to keep it intact. Even if it's not the best situation for everyone involved. And so I would imagine that that's a very difficult decision to finally have to come to, to say, I'm filing, this isn't the best situation for us anymore.

• 17:42Speaker 05

  Exactly. Or, I mean, it's actually just as simple as saying, would I want my daughter to stay in a relationship where she's not being respected? Or do I want my son to feel like it's okay, right?

• 17:51Annie Elise?

  Absolutely.

• 17:52Speaker 05

  Because as moms, we do things for our children that we don't do for ourselves, you know, like, I will happily eat a cookie for breakfast and pie for lunch, but like when I'm pregnant, I'm like, you're building a superhuman, like, you know,

• 18:03Annie Elise?

  Salmon on.

• 18:03Speaker 05

  Organic salmon. Yes, I was a crazy person, about like 9,000 ounces of organic salmon every day for the brain. So like, we do things for our kids that we don't do for ourselves.

• 18:11Annie Elise?

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 18:12Speaker 05

  Yeah, I, I think it's, I'm so grateful because truly adversity as adults too. I mean, it just makes us stronger and really there's nothing that you can't do when you're set up for that. And that's like, again, why the show was so important to me. And because the conversations about financial abuse are so important, emotional abuse and balance in a marriage. And I cannot tell you when our, I mean, even before we aired, I'd had people messaging me. You know, I went to Vanderbilt, had great grades, financially independent, met a man who took over my Audi payment and they got me a new car. And next thing you know, I have no.

• 18:51Annie Elise?

  You have nothing.

• 18:51Speaker 05

  Yeah, I, I am basically asking for an allowance and she was in a shelter. I mean, this is very upper class, highly educated, successful before she was married. Woman who basically had everything stripped from her, little by little, it doesn't. Happen quickly.

• 19:06Annie Elise?

  No.

• 19:07Speaker 05

  And

• 19:07Annie Elise?

  You don't even know what's happening.

• 19:08Speaker 05

  Exactly.

• 19:09Annie Elise?

  And it's so, it's almost done so masterfully and with such an art. And that's something we talk about a lot on this show, and I know we're going to dive into it more. But the red flags, the different forms of abuse, how they manifest, how people groom you. And it's like, it truly can happen to anyone. There's no perfect victim. There's no perfect prey. It's like everyone's susceptible to it. And like you said, it's, you don't even know what's happening. You're like, this guy's taking care of me. Oh, my gosh, he wants to pay my car payment or, oh, he wants me to live with him. And so I don't have to pay rent. And before you know it, there's nothing of your own anymore. You can't escape that situation because you feel like there's nothing. And it's a really scary place to be.

• 19:45Speaker 05

  Right. And you find yourself in a shelter. I mean, listen, there, there are so many different ways it could go. But that is, I mean, that ultimately is the messaging and the conversation that needs to happen. Because there's shame, there's so much shame attached to this when you're like, you literally did everything your mom, you know, told you to. And we're message, this, we're fed this messaging.

• 20:04Annie Elise?

  Yeah.

• 20:05Speaker 05

  I say this all the time, we're fed this messaging in Disney movies. And then we're fed this messaging and, you know, by Y M or Cosmo or like.

• 20:12Annie Elise?

  Y M, oh man, that's a throwback. That's a good one. No, that's a good one.

• 20:16Speaker 05

  But like seventeen, it's like learn to give the perfect blowjob. So he puts a ring on it.

• 20:19Annie Elise?

  Yep.

• 20:20Speaker 05

  Like, that's what we were taught to do, to learn, no, learn to give the perfect blowjob because you want to.

• 20:24Annie Elise?

  Yeah.

• 20:25Speaker 05

  You know, like, not because that the marriage is our goal. And they like, really, they groomed generations of pick me girls.

• 20:31Annie Elise?

  Yeah.

• 20:32Speaker 05

  And.

• 20:32Annie Elise?

  I agree with that. It's interesting too. I wonder, have you noticed? Cause this is, I think we're similar in age and I've noticed from our generation, growing up, people were aiming to be married by twenty five or thirty. Pop your first kid out by thirty. And now I'm noticing the younger generations, most of them are kind of taking children off the table completely. And they're not getting married until their forties because they want to live their life. They want to do that. And I'm like, I think it's finally progressing in a good direction to where people are feeling more independent. But I definitely have noticed, noticed a shift. Cause then I think even when I was growing up, our parents got married when they were early twenties, started having kids. So it's like, it seems as though it continues to get pushed out further and further.

• 21:13Speaker 05

  I hope so. I think so. And with, again, more conversation, more advances in science and, you know, people being able to freeze their eggs. But also I think, um, I don't know, I think it's next generation, like. I started in news and I can't like, we have to laugh at all the bad jokes. And rooms full of white men that were like seventy and we had to like think, make them think they were funny when they weren't. And I don't think this next generation really, I don't know, I think that they're a lot more, I think they're a lot, a lot more like in tuned with what's fair and what's not.

• 21:42Annie Elise?

  I agree.

• 21:42Speaker 05

  I hope.

• 21:43Annie Elise?

  I, I think so. I definitely, especially just speaking for myself, employing a lot of the younger generations, they definitely are more vocal with what they like.

• 21:52Speaker 05

  I agree, I agree. I can barely get them to show to work.

• 21:54Annie Elise?

  Yes, exactly. I wasn't gonna go that far, but yeah, totally true.

• 21:57Speaker 05

  No, it is true.

• 21:58Annie Elise?

  So, okay, so you made, you came to this hard decision to file for divorce and to move forward and really take ownership of your life, which is such a brave and courageous thing to do. But it's also not just a typical breakup or divorce that so many people go through. You were on this huge platform, this huge stage, the world was looking at you, tabloids were circling, like articles happening all the time. During that, how did you protect your peace? And not only that, but then decide, I want to dive into this further and start researching things about this and come out of it.

• 22:30Speaker 05

  Right. Well, I, I knew like there was so much, again, so much circulating. And while I was really frustrated because a lot of it was misinformation or again, very like skewed in a sexist way. And there was, I mean, like flat out lies. I was so tempted to, you know, to like defend myself or defend the situation or set the record straight. Like that's what we do.

• 22:53Annie Elise?

  Yeah.

• 22:53Speaker 05

  Um, but also, I also know that at the same time, you know, the press wants it to be a mudflinging on us. And I was not going to say anything negative and to this day, I would never say anything negative about my children's father to them. Or, you know, ever make them think that I have nothing but the utmost respect for him. But I knew that like, that's what would feel good at the time. And my mom always says, nobody ever regrets taking the high road. Um, so it was really hard to like, sit there and see people spiral and weave like, um, untruths. That said, all I had was my journey and my children's mental health, right? So. I really dive, dive deep. I did like obviously tons of therapy and I went so woo woo.

• 23:38Speaker 05

  I was burning paper, sending it to the ocean.

• 23:40Annie Elise?

  Did you do any of the like ketamine therapies or anything like that?

• 23:43Speaker 05

  I didn't do that just because I really like my brain chemistry. Like that's all I, I,

• 23:47Annie Elise?

  that's all I see on my TikTok. I know and I'm like, I'm kind of curious, but I'm also kind of scared.

• 23:50Speaker 05

  I am too. I like the MDMA. I just read this really crazy book, a wonderful book by Amy Griffin. I'm like, wow, that's so fascinating. But like the one thing I will say is I, I really appreciate how balanced and like non mood like I'm very balanced. So I just don't want to mess with that.

• 24:03Annie Elise?

  Yeah.

• 24:03Speaker 05

  And there was enough of the stuff that was being messed with. So no, I just had like sound baths.

• 24:08Annie Elise?

  That's good.

• 24:08Speaker 05

  Like manifestation. Yeah. We were living in the Cayman Islands at Palm Heights and it was just like a very magical time where again, if I, you know, it was, it for a long time was just a cycle. Like I'd wake up and be like, oh my gosh, it's gonna be a great day. And then by 11, boom, like another thing would come out. The beauty of it was I could turn off my phone and, um, you know, I could just be in the moment and be with my kids. And those are their fondest memories. Like they don't know, I would put them to bed and go like sob in the shower with the door closed. They don't know that all my friends picked up the pieces and made it seem like a really fun night. Like you're gonna help me do dinner, dinner service tonight. Because I didn't have a nanny or babysitter and I just like, you know, needed to cry alone. Like they didn't know. They just thought that was just the community.

• 24:53Speaker 05

  And it was, it was, it was all of those things. Both can be true. Yeah.

• 24:57Annie Elise?

  So, okay, let's move into the show toxin because I know you started talking about it a little bit. I teed it up in the beginning of this episode. But it explores all sorts of different types of toxic relationships. And like you mentioned too, there's so many different forms of abuse. Financial, emotional, mental, physical, all of these things. So what inspired you to not only lean into your history, but everything that you were learning and researching it and then put it into this new format of a show?

• 25:22Speaker 05

  You know, it was a full circle moment. Jason Sorelana is who's president of Investigation Discovery and Discovery. He was my producer when I was at E. I was, I had just come out of news and he was a producer 22 years ago. And he told my agent, you know, I want her to do a show that's exactly about what she wants to do. And I was like, oh my gosh. Like that is a dream come true.

• 25:41Annie Elise?

  Yeah.

• 25:41Speaker 05

  I don't even know where to start. So really it started as this idea of patterns, relationship therapy.

• 25:50Speaker 05

  Parenting, um, how do we examine these relationships? And, you know, originally I didn't know if it was gonna be, if it was gonna be like, people have toxic friendships. People are in very, look at everything, like so many people in court, people have very toxic relationships in their workplace.

• 26:03Annie Elise?

  Mm hmm.

• 26:04Speaker 05

  Um, and then ultimately in diving deeply into these cases, the romantic ones were the ones that really, um, changed the course of people's life and in some cases ended it.

• 26:15Annie Elise?

  Mm hmm.

• 26:16Speaker 05

  So I became very clear that our show was gonna be about toxic relationships. And it became very clear that our show was gonna be about toxic relationships that have ended tragically. And sometimes that tragedy is in a grave and sometimes that tragedy looks like coming out on the other end, um, and stronger. But, I mean, we just, that's, it became so clear. This is something that is, you know, we have our Dateline, we have our cold cases, but this is really the prequel.

• 26:42Annie Elise?

  Yes.

• 26:42Speaker 05

  Like we look at these cold cases on Dateline, but we don't know what led up to that.

• 26:46Annie Elise?

  Mm hmm.

• 26:46Speaker 05

  Right? And so the only way to potentially save lives and potentially like help people is to have this conversation started. And, you know, like during, especially during COVID, there were like little things on TikTok about like breadcrumbing, ghosting, and these little phrases started coming up and nothing was on TV about it.

• 27:02Annie Elise?

  No.

• 27:03Speaker 05

  Um, and it was like a conversation you have with your friends over wine or something about like online dating, but it was very like loosely in the zeitgeist, right? But it wasn't very clear. And there certainly was not a show that says, if you don't watch out for X, Y, and Z, you can end up here. And that's literally what I wanted to happen. I wanted everyone to end every single episode being like, am I in this relationship? Is my sister in this relationship? How can I prevent my kids from being in this relationship? And as moms of boys, holding them accountable.

• 27:36Annie Elise?

  Absolutely. I love that because another big topic that we always discuss and weave into all of the cases that we talk about on this podcast is we talk about it to create awareness and to be able to identify what are some of the red flags? What are things that maybe you aren't questioning yourself about that you should be? So with that, what would you say one of the most misunderstood signs of a toxic relationship is?

• 27:59Speaker 05

  I would say one of the most misunderstood signs is the variation of love bombing, right? Like, I love love. Like, I, and I like, for me, I'm not like a someone who can't disconnect with sex, right? So I think there's a very fine line between somebody really feeling that connection, right? They say like, when you know, you know, and I've felt that, like, you know, I've felt that, and I believe in soulmates. So I think, yes, when you know, you know. But also, when somebody is love bombing somebody else so much, and that's their pattern, or they do research, like, there's so much information online. So, for example, in episode one, with Kelly Setliff, he brought her mom's favorite white lilies, right? So she thought that was so thoughtful, that was so romantic, or is that textbook?

• 28:44Annie Elise?

  Yeah.

• 28:44Speaker 05

  Because he does it. So I think that's like, the number one thing that is the trickiest. Because is it romantic and thoughtful, or is it formulaic?

• 28:52Annie Elise?

  That's a good point, because so many people, I think, have the misconception that a relationship is only toxic if there's this overly dramatic abuse or manipulation happening, but really, it's the subtleties that are weaved in as well. Or to that where you would be like, oh, my gosh, he did his research, or he was listening when I said this, so he brought it, he's so thoughtful. And it's like, no, this is a calculated move, and what he's trying to do to where you then will, you know, almost push out the bad into your blinders and only focus on the good.

• 29:20Speaker 05

  Exactly, exactly. And moving really quickly.

• 29:23Annie Elise?

  Mm hmm.

• 29:23Speaker 05

  Um, so many of these women are so successful in their own right, but they move in very quickly, you know, usually under three to six months. Um, and really just becoming so integrated so quickly into their lives while isolating them from their friends. I think, and I, I always say, like, the best indicator and red flag that you can literally get on a first date, and people are like, I don't want to ask about relationships on their first date. I'm like, ask, save yourself the time. By the way, save yourself, like, the energy, as, and say, like, what's your longest relationship, and why did it end? If they can't say a nice thing about an ex, or if it's always the ex's fault. Red, red, red flag, like a run. Um, she was psycho. She was an alcoholic. They love to be like that, like never taking accountability. And that is really, and again, I go back to this as a parent,

• 30:07Speaker 05

  like our job as moms, because one thing that was consistent across the board is all of these moms, excuse these men's behavior.

• 30:14Annie Elise?

  Mm hmm.

• 30:15Speaker 05

  And, and I have a daughter and a son and I'm like, you're strong, you're powerful. There's nothing you can't do to my daughter and to my son. I'm like, oh, like how good I make her, you know, like, I, it's just hard not to. It's

• 30:26Annie Elise?

  Yeah.

• 30:26Speaker 05

  So, um, holding men accountable for their actions and teaching them to be a gentleman who respects women. And when they don't do that, growing up, having repercussions.

• 30:41Annie Elise?

  Okay. Can we just talk about holiday gifting for a second? There's nothing like having those pieces in your closet that you absolutely love, that you know you can count on for any occasion. For me, it's like this nice little silk two-piece jumpsuit. It's like a pant and a nice little like top blouse, because I'm not really a dress person. And I feel like the best part is like, maybe give somebody else that feeling, having that staple to go to in their closet that is high quality, that looks great, that they can wear for any occasion. So this holiday season, I've not only found those pieces for myself in the past at Quince, but I am paying it forward and I am gifting the gift of Quince this season. Everything there is priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands because they work directly with

• 31:25Annie Elise?

  ethical factories and they cut out the middleman. So you're giving luxury quality, but without that luxury price tag. I've told you before too, it's like you wanna maybe not branch out and do clothes because that's a little bit personal of a gift. Their cashmere throw blanket, I'm telling you, you will be the favorite daughter-in-law, favorite son-in-law, favorite friend. It is the best gift you could give. Cashmere throw blanket. Mark my words. So go ahead, go check it all out at quince.com. Give the gift of quality this holiday season. Download the Quince app for app exclusive offers or go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK too. And when Quince asks you where you heard about them, let them know

• 32:10Annie Elise?

  that it was Serial Sli that sent you. It is the best way to support the show.

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• 32:53Annie Elise?

  What would you suggest with that on a first date, asking about the relationships? Are there any, if you had to pick like three questions?

• 32:59Speaker 05

  Yeah, that's such a good question.

• 33:00Annie Elise?

  Just what would you advise people who are listening, who maybe are still in the dating pool? What would you advise them to ask people?

• 33:05Speaker 05

  I mean, like, everyone's so, again, it's the pick-me culture. Like, I wouldn't ask that. That seems psycho. That seems crazy. I'm sorry. Like, do you want to waste five more hours on a second date if this person is, you know, is very much presenting these red flags? So for me, I like, listen, it doesn't need to be a job interview, but it could be like super cute and playful about it. Just to say like, what was your longest? Or even like present your own information first, right?

• 33:30Annie Elise?

  Yeah.

• 33:30Speaker 05

  Um, my longest relationship was XYZ, but it didn't really work out because our, you know, our work was not aligned. I was working too much. Or, um, what was your longest relationship? And like, just make that a casual conversation, not like they're on the spot or being interrogated. But it is really important. And if they're like, she was a great person, you know, timing is everything. Green flag.

• 33:51Annie Elise?

  Yep.

• 33:51Speaker 05

  You know, um, at the very least, yellow. We're not giving them too much credit too seriously. But yeah, I think it's so important to ask that question and then, and what, find out about their friend group. You know, a lot of these textbook narcissists and textbook abusers, and I think people throw around the word narcissist too much, but with tendencies, um, they don't have a really great group of friends. Like, so do you like sports? Do you watch sports alone? Do you watch sports with your friends? And then another thing that people really, really do is if they've done their research, all of a sudden, like, they know that you like to hike because of an Instagram post. I love to hike. So again, we're not interrogating them. They're not like hooked up to a polygraph, but.

• 34:32Annie Elise?

  I wish they were.

• 34:33Speaker 05

  I know what you're saying.

• 34:33Annie Elise?

  That's my ideal first date.

• 34:35Speaker 05

  That would be amazing. That would save us a lot of time and energy and heartbreak. But you know, what was the last, oh, it was like, dig into that a little, little bit. Make sure that they just didn't do their preemptive research and coming with the answers that you want. What did you like to hide? Like, make sure that they have their own interests that are not mirroring yours.

• 34:52Annie Elise?

  Yeah.

• 34:52Speaker 05

  Um, you know, opposites attract and they, it doesn't, they don't need to assimilate to you.

• 34:58Annie Elise?

  Definitely.

• 34:58Speaker 05

  Um, so really like just, again, it doesn't happen. You're not like coming with your three by five index card of questions.

• 35:03Annie Elise?

  Right.

• 35:04Speaker 05

  But like weaving that into casual conversation is so important. And I will, I really wish that we could normalize that. Without girls being like, oh my gosh. And again, as I hear this so much.

• 35:12Annie Elise?

  Yeah.

• 35:13Speaker 05

  Um, I don't want them to think I'm crazy. Okay. Well, your time is valuable.

• 35:17Annie Elise?

  Mm hmm.

• 35:17Speaker 05

  You are an coveted asset. So treat it as such. Like you're not like, why, why do you want that you could date? That's 20 hours. Time is the only thing we don't have rollover minutes in life. Like, why are you wasting your time to try to figure out somebody because you're trying to be polite or seem chill? Like you can seem chill and get the answers.

• 35:34Annie Elise?

  It's interesting too, because you mentioned the piece about do they have a lot of friends? Do they have a big friend group? And I remember always hearing growing up, if somebody doesn't still have childhood friends in their life, then they are a red flag.

• 35:46Speaker 05

  So true.

• 35:46Annie Elise?

  There is something, you know, to worry or to look into a little bit more. So even, sorry about that. So even aside from like, love bombing or just the friend piece of it, what other red flags, subtle red flags, or even I guess major ones, would you say people should be on high alert for that maybe are not as obvious?

• 36:06Speaker 05

  I think it's like just getting to the core of who they are, right? Like being able to read if they're twitching, if they're like, um, so many, and again, I'm basing this just on season one, but we had a lot of different cases. I mean, you see six cases on the air, but we did a deep dive into so many more to get to those six. And a lot of them had, um, obsession. And by the way, this is not anything negative towards military, like so grateful for everyone who's fought for our country, but a lot of them had, um, fascination with the military, or maybe they were not enlisted, or, um, some sort of fascination with.

• 36:38Speaker 05

  Police Department, FBI, military, across the board, like some, I, I don't know, that was just something that was really interesting to me.

• 36:44Annie Elise?

  They were fascinated by, you mean in terms of like a hobby or just an interest?

• 36:49Speaker 05

  Well, a lot of them were, were former military, but the ones that weren't kind of like lied about it or said that.

• 36:54Annie Elise?

  Oh.

• 36:54Speaker 05

  I, there's a whole, like, there's a whole sect of people who say that they're Navy SEALs.

• 36:57Annie Elise?

  Now, do you think that's because they want, of course, I mean, they want to feel more powerful and more important than they are. So they would go, and I remember, I forget which case it was where somebody lied about being, I want to say, Purple Heart or something like that. And it was like this entire thing. So that's interesting. And you saw that as like a pretty common thing?

• 37:15Speaker 05

  That was consistent throughout, or just, you know, like, they like to go to the gun range, they like to, again, it's asserting control, like quietly, by saying, I have a collection of knives, I have a collection of guns, oh, I just do that because, and then you kind of justify, like you sound like a psychopath if you're like, I have a collection of knives, but then tying that into some sort of military fascination or allegiance in a way.

• 37:40Speaker 05

  I also think, again, like, just asking about how their longest relationships and how long, if they lived with someone, right? So hopefully, as you're dating, like someone's on the trajectory of really focusing on their own life, their own career, and not really being dependent on moving in with one woman after another. And in Kelly's case, she thought that she was, I think, the second wife, she was the fourth. And he had moved in quickly with all of those. So again, like asking questions about the past and finding the relationship with their parents, that was another thing that was so mind blowing to me in terms of our survivors. I came into this season thinking that every single person probably had that modeled for them, like that their mom was in a relationship.

• 38:23Speaker 05

  But the craziest thing was that every single one of them had really lovely marriages as examples. They, which again, back to my point that not only is adversity not the worst thing for children, it's necessary. Because they never saw their parents fight. And I know because I interviewed these people, it was like Leave It To Beaver.

• 38:40Annie Elise?

  Yeah.

• 38:41Speaker 05

  And they had never seen, so the first person that comes along and sweeps them off their feet, they assume that, that they're.

• 38:48Annie Elise?

  That's just how life goes, you know, and that it's great and you found your perfect fairy tale ending.

• 38:51Speaker 05

  Right. So ask them about their relationship with their parents, their mom in particular. I mean, there's just so many little things that you can weave into a normal conversation. I do it with people I'm not on dates with, like, and I just, it's

• 39:04Annie Elise?

  Are you doing it right now?

• 39:05Speaker 05

  I do, I do, tell me about your mother, tell me about your father.

• 39:09Annie Elise?

  Oh, now we're gonna just have a whole therapy session?

• 39:12Speaker 05

  Exactly. Lie down, I'll get a notepad. But no, I think it's just, I mean, we are, humans are wildly textbook in a lot of ways. And I'm not saying like, you want to necessarily go ahead and put people in boxes, but you know, prejudice and prejudging exists for a reason. And if we can flip that and make it work for us, instead of a way to, you know, judge someone in a negative light, like, let, let's get those tools in our toolbox. So we can save ourselves time, energy, and, you know, in many cases, you've seen lives. Because it's, and they're getting more, they get better with each, with each survivor and with each victim. And I think that's like, one of the things that really echoed with every single episode is,

• 39:55Speaker 05

  I have to stop this now because he's getting better and better with each target. And when all of these women shared that, and, and I, I hope in next season, we find men, because it is, when all these people said that, they said it was such fear.

• 40:11Annie Elise?

  Yeah.

• 40:11Speaker 05

  Because they knew they were close. They knew they were lucky to be alive. And, and that to me is just, I mean, that's

• 40:18Annie Elise?

  It's a terrifying thought.

• 40:20Speaker 05

  Exactly.

• 40:20Annie Elise?

  Is there a particular case, whether it made it into the season, or was one that you discovered through your research that really stuck with you or stood out to you for a certain reason?

• 40:30Speaker 05

  I mean, all the ones that are on air do for so many different reasons, but I think probably the most heartbreaking of all, well, I mean, in addition to the heartbreak that you see on the screen, was the people that we found, and they had wild cases, and then we were engaged, they wanted to share their story, and then they would go radio silent. And then you would look online and realize that they went back to their abusers. And, you know, trying to paint the picture of, he's better, and, and that was really difficult. I mean, there were two stories in particular, and two cases, that, you know, would have been so helpful. To tell and they both went back.

• 41:09Annie Elise?

  What's this, the statistic, isn't it eight, it takes eight times to successfully?

• 41:13Speaker 05

  Well, it takes eight times to call the police.

• 41:15Annie Elise?

  Oh, wow.

• 41:16Speaker 05

  Eight, eight episodes of domestic violence. They say seven to nine episodes of domestic violence just to call the police.

• 41:21Annie Elise?

  Wow.

• 41:21Speaker 05

  Um, and if you see throughout our season, there, everyone said, like, aren't you so disenchanted with men? Are you so disenchanted with dating? Are you so? And I'm like, no, you have to look for the helpers.

• 41:32Annie Elise?

  Mm hmm.

• 41:33Speaker 05

  Because in every episode, there's a helper. And, um, and Kate Ranta's case, she would have gone back to the man that shot her in front of her son and shot her parents and almost tried to kill her son. But if not for, um, a, a child protective services worker, Shanti Rais, and she said, I will take your son away from you if you go back to that man.

• 41:54Annie Elise?

  Mm hmm.

• 41:55Speaker 05

  And so it takes that, it takes a helper oftentimes, or it takes an FBI detective, like Detective Littman and, and Kelly Setliff's case. Like it takes those people to say, you're not willing to help yourself, so I am going to step in.

• 42:08Annie Elise?

  And that's what gives, I would imagine, not only them hope, but you hope too, reporting on it.

• 42:13Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 42:13Annie Elise?

  Recent, researching it, investigating it. And in, as you navigate your own personal life, it's like, there are good humans. Cause that's one of the questions I think that I get asked the most often is how do you cover such heavy material, heavy cases, real life stories? And not become hardened by that or pessimistic about it. And I, I always say too, like, first and foremost, I think their stories deserve to be heard and told. And hopefully in an educational way, but I also think too, it's like, you have to know that there's good behind it as well. And there are people, like you call them helpers. And so that's what gives hope and encouragement for just humanity as a whole, as lame as that sounds, you know?

• 42:52Speaker 05

  But you're doing such good work because as we both know, I mean, it's not the justice system and I'm sorry. And it's not like the people don't go into that line of work, understanding that it's so flawed. I mean, look at Morris County, they've never prosecuted a single domestic violence case in this entire county in New Jersey.

• 43:10Annie Elise?

  Really?

• 43:11Speaker 05

  Never. Never. I mean, it's, it's unbelievable. No one spent a night in jail.

• 43:16Annie Elise?

  Wow.

• 43:16Speaker 05

  For domestic violence. So you know what? You want to beat the crap out of your spouse, move to more like that there and they we, nobody had really said that on television. Nobody had really made that known. So you giving a voice to so many victims and to really laying things out. I mean, that was the thing that was so disheartening was the justice system fails you. So of course someone's going to report. You really have to be your own advocate and it has to become your life work. I mean, you, if you are going to get the justice that you need or the protection. It becomes, no one's gonna do it. No one's gonna do it. You have to be your, an advocate for yourself. And that is daunting enough when you're already trying to leave somebody who you love.

• 43:51Annie Elise?

  Exactly. So I think it kind of, at least with me, and I'm sure for the listeners, it brings it full circle. It's like sharing these stories and the red flags to look for and all that. Hopefully it gives them enough knowledge and insight before they ever find themselves in a situation like that. So that they can identify what's going on, not even need to be put in a position to escape it because they're not getting into it. And then you're not fighting the justice system and everything else. It's like a domino.

• 44:16Speaker 05

  Exactly, exactly. And having that community, you know, there's so many Kelly. Again, she's been such an advocate for women. She had her firearms taken away from her. She's the only domestic violence um survivor to have her firearm taken away. He knew that the magazine law had changed in New Jersey. And that her magazine of her gun had a twenty instead of ten. And so he had her gun taken away from her. So after she had already, you know, filed so many complaints. And so he took her gun away and she said, okay, well, I'm gonna get dogs. And then started a whole foundation for dogs and she the P the with protective dogs. So what she's done though, is create this community where people see her story and come to her before it's too late.

• 44:57Speaker 05

  Or come to her after. And I think just this conversation, conversation, I always say that, but like, that is our best, that's our best weapon against this injustice. Is talking about it and making it common. Like in a dream world, every thirteen year old who when they turn sixteen starts to date is like, no, no, no. Like that's what we need for future generation. And I always say our demographic is people who have dated, are dating, are going to date, which is everyone.

• 45:19Annie Elise?

  Yep.

• 45:19Speaker 05

  And um and then to get the help, hopefully like people who have bad patterns can say, wow. I saw this. I didn't have an opportunity to really change it or change like course correct. And the ones that want to get help, understand the power of therapy and.

• 45:33Annie Elise?

  Yeah, I think removing the stigma of feeling any sort of shame or like you have to protect or hide or not ask if something is weird in a relationship that you're in. Of course, I understand if you're feeling threatened or it's now at a violent or dangerous level, you may not feel comfortable talking to somebody or sharing, and I certainly understand that. But before it gets to that point, feeling that there isn't a stigma, and you can ask your best girlfriend, like, hey, he kinda did this. Like, should I look at it weird? Should I question it? And just not feeling like women, I think, tend to feel is like, am I going crazy? Am I too over, like, looking into this too much? Am I overanalyzing? It's like, no, ask the questions. This is your life.

• 46:10Speaker 05

  Mm hmm. Exactly. Exactly.

• 46:13Annie Elise?

  So, a lot of women, I would say too, especially just in cases I've covered, and I'm sure cases that you've covered, they stay in relationships, as we talked about earlier, because they're feeling afraid, threatened, financially trapped, emotionally manipulated. I mean, the list could go on and on. So what would you say to somebody who knows that their situation is unhealthy, or suspects that it's unhealthy, but doesn't even know where to begin?

• 46:37Speaker 05

  Right. And that's such a great question. Because it can manifest itself in so many different ways. I would say get your ducks in a row while quietly being compliant. So, you know, you know, you're not happy. You know that the result or the reaction is going to be a big one. That's when you really start taking care of yourself. And that's when you buckle down and you say, I, you know, I need to speak to the therapist, I need to involve my parents, or whoever your close circle of friends is, and be vulnerable with your friends, you know, and find resources. I mean, I have, people have reached out to me, and I, of course, like, whenever somebody does, I, you can't be so involved in every single case, but resources are huge. If it's a specific divorce attorney who is really

• 47:21Speaker 05

  fair, and, you know, not money hungry, but just wants to help people in this department, or if it's like, in the case of our third episode, Carrie, who's an amazing lawyer who really focuses on revenge porn, and she, that's like, that is her thing. She has a whole, that's like, her whole market and her whole client base is certain things. So I think, like, asking for help. Doing the research and then having an exit plan and um and doing all of that very quietly. So you don't blow everything up and and face more violence.

• 47:53Annie Elise?

  What would you say out of all of those resources? Because I think those are all such great tips. And if they're not prepared to, of course, go to the police because they know the reaction is going to be big. They're scared. What would you suggest as being the most strategic and smart resource to go to? Is it a therapist where you can be fully transparent with everything? And you know that that that's under lock and key. They will, those words will never get out. Is it a parent who you trust will can like, you know, remain, of course, on your side, but also quiet? Where would you say the best resource to start?

• 48:26Speaker 05

  Right. I mean, that's the thing about parents too. They have their own stuff, right? That's tricky because I've known people who have been in really unhealthy relationships. And kind of their daughter was living out the fantasy of the life the mom never had. And she's like, just stay, just stay. So I think parents can be tricky. And again, I'm not a, you know, I'm not a licensed professional, but I think therapy, if you can afford it, is always the best option because they can, everything is protected and they can give you really professional advice and steps. It's like you just need to have, again, I keep saying exit plan, but a plan of action where you know that you're moving in the right direction. But again, and then look at our episode four where she was dead in eight months, you know?

• 49:08Speaker 05

  Um, so it's just even just that she was so almost comatose because she was being drugged every day. Um, I think it's just advocating for your mental, physical health and emotional health and and going to the professionals who can provide them. You know, you can say, I'm going to a doctor, depending on how controlling your situation is. You don't have to say a therapist, you can say, I'm going to the doctor. Um, but really just taking that first step. Because I think I always say, people like, and even online, it's just ridiculous. But like, why did they stay? Why did they say? And it's like, If you open a door 10 times and you get punched in the face 10 times, you don't open the door.

• 49:45Annie Elise?

  Yep.

• 49:46Speaker 05

  But people don't understand if you open the door 10 times and six of those times you're hugged and told, you know, love bombed and told that like you're amazing, that you keep opening the door. And I think that that's like a very real way to put it when people can't understand how someone can stay.

• 50:01Annie Elise?

  Yeah.

• 50:02Speaker 05

  Um, they opt like, we're both probably incredibly optimistic people and I can see if you're optimistic, you're going to think that they're going to change, especially they're going to tell you, I'm never going to do it again. So like

• 50:12Annie Elise?

  You almost, I think naively want to believe of course, because you want the hope to be the new reality.

• 50:17Speaker 05

  Yes. And you're in this cycle in your brain, like your brain neuron path needs to be interrupted because it, it's like just believing it's in a cycle.

• 50:27Annie Elise?

  Yeah.

• 50:27Speaker 05

  And so I say anything that will get you out of the cycle, anything like that will just get you out of that cycle. So you can see the forest for the trees and someone can tell you this, this and this. And then again, that's accountability, right? Then you're, if you're speaking to a therapist, you're allowing more helpers into your life, like

• 50:42Annie Elise?

  Yeah.

• 50:42Speaker 05

  The opportunity for someone to give you an ultimatum when you can't maybe give it to yourself.

• 50:46Annie Elise?

  Mm hmm.

• 50:46Speaker 05

  Of like, if you don't leave this person, I'm actually going to report you to child protective services.

• 50:51Annie Elise?

  Yeah.

• 50:52Speaker 05

  Because you're putting your child.

• 50:53Annie Elise?

  Yeah, it forces your hand a bit. I love the door analogy and I think too, when it, the conversation is about reaching out and making that first step, which is obviously incredibly difficult and takes so much courage. It's like, I would imagine that even if they reach out once to a therapist and what like you said, if you disguise it as a medical appointment or whatever it is, once you successfully have opened the door a little bit with that and you realize like, it's okay. I think that would then give these victims too, more courage to continue to speak and open up more, share more, and then hopefully start getting some traction to where they feel confident enough to form exit point.

• 51:32Speaker 05

  Exactly. Exactly. Not, you know, not tiptoeing about it. These people, I mean, these therapists are there for a reason. Being very open and honest upfront. I mean, they're expensive. It's expensive to have a therapy session and and you don't want to waste your time. And so I always say, To I have friends that are in situations like this. I tell her the good, the bad and the ugly at the top.

• 51:51Annie Elise?

  Yep.

• 51:52Speaker 05

  Um, like, don't, we don't need, like, you're not.

• 51:55Annie Elise?

  Don't be embarrassed.

• 51:55Speaker 05

  We're not going to tea. You're not going to tea. Like, you're not going to.

• 51:58Annie Elise?

  Just get into it.

• 51:58Speaker 05

  A hundred percent.

• 51:59Annie Elise?

  Yeah.

• 52:00Speaker 05

  Yeah. And, and see if they're the right one too, right? Like, so there's therapy and then there's good therapy.

• 52:04Annie Elise?

  Yeah.

• 52:05Speaker 05

  And there's also such thing as bad therapist. Let's be real.

• 52:07Annie Elise?

  Definitely.

• 52:07Speaker 05

  Um, so figure out if that's something that they have experience in, um, if that's something that they are, have the resources and if not, try someone else. But don't waste your time and money by being polite in the beginning. Just say, you know, lay it all on the table.

• 52:23Annie Elise?

  Mm hmm.

• 52:24Speaker 05

  And, um, and let them understand the severity of the situation.

• 52:26Annie Elise?

  That's great advice. So for people who now I'm sure are gonna go binge toxic after this, because you guys definitely should. The episodes are fantastic. What do you hope people take away from it when they watch it? Whether they are in the most healthy relationship, whether they're in an unhealthy relationship, what's the hope?

• 52:42Speaker 05

  I mean, the hope is just that, again, I want everyone to end with questions.

• 52:46Annie Elise?

  Mm hmm.

• 52:47Speaker 05

  Really question themselves, question the loved ones. Um, I always say if you have, sure, if you, if I say right now and come up with three people that you feel like are not in balanced relationships that could be toxic, you can come up with them right away. Um, see something, say something. It's not always our position unless, you know, if it's an acquaintance, not really your position, but like, if it's a friend, just have those conversations with them, take them to coffee. Check in with your friends. I want that to be like a huge takeaway. And then B, look at those little microaggressions in your own relationships and address them.

• 53:18Annie Elise?

  Yeah.

• 53:18Speaker 05

  I'm not saying I want to come in and blow up everyone's marriages, but.

• 53:22Annie Elise?

  Drop it kinda.

• 53:23Speaker 05

  Yeah, but post divorce is fun. No, um, um, but I want, I want there to be balance. Like, you know, there are either so many instances where there are just small things that make the other person feel little that aren't addressed. Like maybe one, um, you know, one person really is excited for dinner or some dinner for someone and they're like, oh, it's fine, but they never really give them the validation. Or maybe it's like never really like always just kind of undermining in small ways. So, you know, I always say there's imbalance in every relationship. There's an imbalance socially. One person's usually more extroverted and more socially adept. There's an imbalance financially. One person always makes more money, whether you want to admit it or not. There is an imbalance. Fertility ones, like maybe one person really wants to have a baby, the others finish like I didn't know fertility was abuse.

• 54:07Speaker 05

  Abuse was a thing before the ship. And there's always an imbalance and that's fine because that's actually just natural. But when it becomes an issue is when that imbalance is used as power or aggression against you. Um, so you know, if nothing else, if you're so happy in your race, but there's just one thing that you feel like could be a micro aggression. Or a micro imbalance that doesn't make you feel good. That's also like on the very, very smallest scale.

• 54:31Annie Elise?

  Yeah.

• 54:32Speaker 05

  Um, something I hope people take, you know, I'm not like. Even if you are in a really healthy relationship, there's always, it's like, that's why I love mental health and therapy because you can always biohack your brain. Right? You can biohack your emotions. We do that all the time with our bodies. But like, why are we not biohacking our happiness?

• 54:48Annie Elise?

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 54:49Speaker 05

  So like, look for those little patterns. And, and, and it doesn't just have to be marriage. It doesn't have to be like. You know, romantic relationships, it could be platonic, it can be. A balanced friendship where you feel like you do an imbalance friendship where you feel like you're always picking up the pieces for someone else. And just have that conversation, like all we have is each other and our community and conversation. And with that, it can be so powerful.

• 55:11Annie Elise?

  I think even relationships with parents too. There are so many different dynamics that come into play with that too, where. You want to, no matter what age you are, you still feel as though your parent is your supervisor or you know, whatever it is. And it can change the dynamic.

• 55:26Speaker 05

  And putting boundaries in place. I love my parents so much, but like, there's some very, very extreme boundaries in place. Because I have to, right? For my own mental health and for my own, just to again, break patterns and cycles. They only know what they know. And that's all. So like, just, I think. Questioning things and looking at things under a microscope without having like necessarily big reactions unless they're necessary. And most importantly, check in on those people. You, I always say like, you have one life to live. We know the date we're born. We don't know the date we're gonna die. But like that dash in between on your tombstone, like I want that to be like the most pixelated, vibrant. gratifying picks a dash imaginable. And when you consider that people are in really

• 56:10Speaker 05

  toxic relationships where they live almost like dead inside, just explaining I'll wait till the kids graduate. I hear that so often. I'm just gonna wait till they graduate. Why? You are, you are, you're miserable.

• 56:22Annie Elise?

  Yeah.

• 56:23Speaker 05

  They are miserable. And you're gonna wait so they can what say that both parents slept under the same roof?

• 56:27Annie Elise?

  Yeah.

• 56:27Speaker 05

  No, you're not like a sacrificial lamb. You have your own life to live and they will be so inspired and live by example and live their life if you live by example.

• 56:36Annie Elise?

  Yeah.

• 56:37Speaker 05

  And so I, I, I hear that and it kills me. It kills me. It just wait, I, I think get till they're eighteen and then I want to make a move. And I just, and again, I'm not here to judge. It's just, you know, your life is more valuable than that.

• 56:49Annie Elise?

  Yeah, your life is valuable too, and you should be making the most of it and not sacrificing for somebody else's happiness.

• 56:54Speaker 05

  Exactly.

• 56:55Annie Elise?

  Yeah. I think too, for anybody who thinks that there are no microaggressions either, or they're in a perfect relationship. By watching this series, you are seeing, just like you see on this podcast, other podcasts, whatever, you're seeing all these different dynamics and relationships. So it's also educating you on knowing what to look for in your friends, in your loved ones' relationships, so that you can be a source of strength for them, even if they're not ready to reach out to you.

• 57:21Speaker 05

  Exactly.

• 57:22Annie Elise?

  So I think there's, anybody can learn from it and it's

• 57:24Speaker 05

  I'm sure. And I hope like, I, I mean, I hope that we're also looking within, right? So in doing the show, I'm like, I stopped. I was like, guys, I think I'm a love bomber. And they're like, okay, but I was like, wait, I need to like talk to their, my therapist and break this down. Because like, if we're not looking inward, something's wrong. Like, you know, that's like the definition of narcissistic tendencies. But I really became, I was like, maybe I'm the problem. It's me. And I really felt like I needed to examine it. But again, you can need to feel that connection. You can like, I will say I love you when I leave you. Like I love bomb everyone. But it's not like I just, I just feel

• 57:58Annie Elise?

  Well, you did hug me the moment you walked into the studio. Just kidding.

• 58:02Speaker 05

  I was just, I was just plotting. No, but like you have to ask yourself, right? Like, do I do certain things that my parents did? And and be aware, because that really is is the key too. So you can lead with vulnerability and and make sure that you're keeping your behavior in check.

• 58:16Annie Elise?

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 58:18Speaker 05

  Like, because I was like, why do I love people so quickly? And it's friends, it's orgs. And I'm like, I asked my therapist, like, I mean, that's just how you were raised by southern parents. And everyone's just hospitable. And, you know, you own bakeries because you love hugging strangers who come in and giving them cupcakes. Like, that's just how you are. But you need to be aware that in a relationship that you're being really open and honest with someone, because, you know, people have proposed. I'm like, why did what? No, I know. I don't. And then because I'm making them believe that

• 58:49Annie Elise?

  that it's

• 58:49Speaker 05

  it's further and more, you know, and more serious, maybe than it is. So, yes, you can be someone who's very ingratiating and loving and and say, I love you soon and fast. But like, also just be open and honest about where you are in that relationship. And and and understand, like, that having that awareness of yourself is half the battle. And then everything else is just conveying it.

• 59:11Annie Elise?

  Absolutely. For anybody listening, who is maybe going through a toxic relationship of their own right now, and they're not ready to take a step forward, or reach out to anybody, what would you what advice would you give them for anyone listening?

• 59:27Speaker 05

  I mean, again, I'm not a licensed professional, but I would say, look, watch Toxic and see how things are presented, and how differently it can end. And and really get on these people's Instagrams, on their TikToks, on their, you know, follow people who have been through it, and educate yourself. Like, this is your time, if you're not ready to leave, this is your time to gather evidence and information, and present it to your, I don't want to say perpetrator, if they haven't done anything yet, but present it to your partner in a way that really tests where they are in that, where they lie. Like, I think everything is on a spectrum of everything. And so, you know, present certain ideas to them. Watch

• 1:00:09Speaker 05

  a show, watch an episode of any true crime together, see how their response is to that. And I think it's really interesting, because a lot of true crime. Consumers, their partner doesn't like to watch with them. Um, and in Kelly Setliff's case in episode one, he said, when he was trying to kill her, he said, thank God you watched so much investigation discovery. Because now I know how to make it look like you tried to murder me.

• 1:00:33Annie Elise?

  Oh, my God.

• 1:00:34Speaker 05

  And he literally quoted that because she had watched so much. So I think really, put yourself in situations or dynamics. Where their colors are revealed, whether it's a dinner party with a friend that you've confided in. And say like, when this came up, did you see this?

• 1:00:46Annie Elise?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:00:47Speaker 05

  Um, you know, I think it's just that if you're not ready. It's just that that's kind of the stage of information gathering.

• 1:00:53Annie Elise?

  I love that. Just educate yourself as much as possible so that if you are ready in the future, you have all the tools.

• 1:00:59Speaker 05

  Exactly. I know that you're not alone. I mean, the statistics, the statistics are staggering.

• 1:01:03Annie Elise?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:01:04Speaker 05

  Um, it is shocking how many people. But by the way, have come out on the other side in really healthy relationships and loving relationships with more tools than they would have ever had. So. I don't want everyone to think it's a death sentence because it's really not, but you have to do the work. And you have to leave. And I think that's the hardest thing is because they just feel like they so they want to be loved, right?

• 1:01:26Annie Elise?

  It just feels hard.

• 1:01:27Speaker 05

  Mm hmm. It feels so hard to say I'm leaving someone who loves me 60% of the time. And makes these promises to be alone. And I think that's another thing that's like, our society needs to change you. Be alone, do the work, like, love yourself, figure out exactly who you are. You do not need another person.

• 1:01:44Annie Elise?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:01:44Speaker 05

  Period. Like, but the construct of marriage was created. When people died at the age of 30 and got married at 13, like, right? And we had, they had kids to work on their farm, like. No, this, this lie that Disney movies has told us. And that, you know, these dating magazines have told us, like, no.

• 1:01:59Annie Elise?

  You don't need to be with anyone to be happy. You don't need kids to be happy, just to be happy with yourself inward.

• 1:02:04Speaker 05

  A hundred percent, a hundred percent.

• 1:02:06Annie Elise?

  Well, thank you so much for joining today. I really appreciate it. And everybody, go watch Toxic. You have two episodes left for release.

• 1:02:12Speaker 05

  We have two, yes. It's a two part about the same person. It's.

• 1:02:15Annie Elise?

  Ooh.

• 1:02:15Speaker 05

  I know, I don't know if you saw Bad Vegan, but um, that man has been on the run for nine years and. And yeah, we find him.

• 1:02:23Annie Elise?

  Ah, there we go. And can you let everybody know where they can find Toxic, where they can find you?

• 1:02:27Speaker 05

  Yes, of course. I am Elizabeth Chambers on Instagram and then Toxic is. Every Monday night on ID and then we're also streaming on Max. So go binge on Max and then catch episodes, new episodes on Mondays.

• 1:02:38Annie Elise?

  Amazing. All right. Well, thank you so much.

• 1:02:40Speaker 05

  Thank you.

• 1:02:40Annie Elise?

  I'm ready.

• 1:02:40Speaker 05

  It's a pleasure.

• 1:02:41Annie Elise?

  Okay. Thank you so much for listening to another episode of Serialistly today. I hope you enjoyed it and found it insightful, educational, valuable, all the things. As another reminder, don't forget, get your tour tickets before they are sold out. If you want to come, we are coming to a city near you and it's unlike any tour, any episode, any case we've ever covered. It is going to be an entirely different approach. You are not going to want to miss it and I cannot wait to meet all of you. So tickets are at AnnieElise.com. All the information's over there and grab them now. Other than that, I will be back with another episode very soon. Thank you again so much for tuning in and until the next one. Be nice, don't kill people, watch out for all of the red flags and just, you know, keep your senses on high alert. All right. Bye, guys.

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