651: Shaka Senghor - From Prison to Purpose: Breaking Mental Barriers, Working with Mentors, and Leading Through Vulnerability (How To Be Free)

Go to www. LearningLeader.com https://www. LearningLeader.com for full show notes This is brought to you by Insight Global https://insightglobal.com/learningleader/. If you need to hire 1 person, hire a team of people, or transform your business through Talent or Technical Services, Insight Global's team of 30,000 people around the world have the hustle and grit to deliver. www. InsightGlobal.com/LearningLeader https://www. InsightGlobal.com/LearningLeader Shaka Sengor spent 19 years in prison for killing a man. He's transformed his life through not making excuses and taking full ownership of his decisions. Now, he's a New York Times best-selling author who has been called a "soul igniter" by Oprah. His latest book is called How to Be Free. Notes: The Permanence of Split-Second Decisions – At 17, shot three times on a Detroit corner. At 19, he killed a man in a conflict after creating a narrative that he would "shoot first." Sentenced to 17-40 years for second-degree murder. "I try to teach young people about understanding the permanence of a 30-second decision." Books as Portals to Freedom – Read over 1,500 books during 19-year incarceration, starting with street literature (Pimp, Black Gangster) as a gateway to philosophy (Plato, Marcus Aurelius). "Books allowed me to escape in the most literal sense... a portal into other worlds." Prison Mentors Changed Everything – Lifers became his guides: "These are men serving life sentences who came equipped with wisdom about what's on the other side... they guided me to books that shattered old narratives and opened possibilities." Reading Creates Writing Excellence – Speed-reading skill from age 8 (learned during punishments with encyclopedias) combined with voracious prison reading, led to becoming a NY Times bestselling author. "You have to be a practitioner of the craft every day." Journaling as Transformation Tool – "It was the most healing experience I've ever had to speak to my truth, speak to the pain points." Uses 20 different journals, writes everywhere - planes, shower thoughts on phone, margins of books. Hidden Prisons We All Carry – "The most powerful prisons aren't the ones made of concrete and steel. They're the ones we carry with us, built from grief, anger, shame, trauma." Everyone has internal prisons that can be opened. Vulnerability as Strength, Not Manipulation – Authentic vulnerability vs. weaponized oversharing. "Human beings have this innate ability to suss out the truth. Authenticity and vulnerability is the super unlock... being true to your center." Community Through Shared Truth – Prison taught extreme friendship criteria: "Are they willing to serve a life sentence for you or die for you?" Now applies accountability standards: showing up consistently, being loyal to family first. Violence Born from Fear – "Reactionary violence is typically born out of fear, being afraid." Prison taught him to see "the child in people" who are acting out, leading to empathy instead of escalation. Voluntary Hardship Builds Resilience – Monthly 3-day fasts in solitary confinement prepared him for food deprivation punishment. "None of us get through life without suffering... that extra hour a week can change your life's outcomes." Composure Through Self-Awareness – Developed through journaling about times he wasn't composed. "Once you've written it down, you own it. When you own it, you can control it. When you can control it, it's easy to become composed." Remove All Excuses – Florence Nightingale quote: "I never gave or took any excuse." Despite a felony record, a violent crime conviction, and 20 years in prison, he chose to "lead a great life" by removing every excuse. The Ben Horowitz Friendship – Unlikely brotherhood with VC billionaire, starting from Oprah's introduction, bonding over music and culture until 3 AM conversations. Shows authentic relationships transcend backgrounds. Quotes: "I try to teach young people about understanding the permanence of a 30-second decision." "I was in prison before I stepped foot in a cell, and I was free before they ever let me out." "The most powerful prisons aren't the ones made of concrete and steel. They're the ones we carry with us." "Books allowed me to escape... a portal into other worlds." "Once you've written it down, you own it. When you own it, you can control it." "I never gave or took any excuse." (Florence Nightingale) "Master your thinking, master your destiny." "Violence is typically born out of fear, being afraid." "If you can see the child in the person that's acting out... it equips you to have more empathy." "None of us gets through life without suffering. At some point, we're all gonna go through adversity." "I chose to lead a great life... I removed every excuse." Life Lessons: Face Your Internal Prisons – Identify the shame, anger, grief, and trauma that create mental prisons. Recognize that these have doors that can be opened through conscious work Use Reading as Escape and Growth – Books provide mental freedom regardless of physical circumstances. Start with what interests you, then expand to broader learning. Practice Voluntary Hardship – Choose difficult challenges (fasting, extra work, taking stairs) to build resilience for inevitable adversity you don't choose. Journal for Self-Awareness – Write down thoughts, patterns, and reactions to own and control them. Use various methods - handwritten, voice memos, and margins of books. Build Authentic Community – Surround yourself with people who will hold you accountable and tell you the truth. Apply the highest standards to friendship selection. Transform Fear into Empathy – When facing conflict, look for the "child" in the other person. Understanding their fear reduces your reactionary responses. Develop Composure Through Practice – Review past moments of losing control to build awareness. Use this knowledge to respond rather than react in future situations. Remove All Excuses – Whatever your circumstances, choose to pursue greatness rather than accepting limitations. The past doesn't define the future unless you let it. Share Your Truth Vulnerably – Authentic storytelling about pain and growth helps others escape their own prisons. Vulnerability is strength when used to serve others. Create Evidence of Resilience – Completing self-imposed challenges builds confidence for handling external adversities. Each victory creates proof you can handle hard things. Choose Your Narrative – You can change the story handed down to you. Reject limiting beliefs about what's possible based on background or circumstances. Apply to be part of my Learning Leader Circle https://learningleader.com/leadership-circles/

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Ryan Hawk?

  Jim Collins told me on episode number 216 that the single greatest determining factor in my long-term success or failure would be my who, who I chose to surround myself with. And that conversation has had a huge impact on how I've designed my business. And one of the most important elements or services that I provide is my Learning Leader Circle. And I open up applications one time per year, and that time is now at learningleaderscircle.com is where you can apply. Now, this is the most inefficient element of my business because

• 0:42Ryan Hawk?

  I personally read every application and I personally choose who will go on to the next round and then who will ultimately be one of the 12 people to be in my next Learning Leader Circle. And I only do it one time per year, and that time is now. If you are intentional about surrounding yourself with others who will push you, challenge you, make you think differently, if you're willing to self-reflect and do some work, this could be for you. And you can apply at learningleaderscircle.com. We meet once per month on Zoom, and then we meet one time per year in person for our Leadership Retreat for members of my Learning Leader Circle. So if you'd like to apply, go to learningleaderscircle.com.

• 1:30Ryan Hawk?

  Welcome to the Learning Leader Show. I am your host, Ryan Hawke. Thank you so much for being here. Go to learningleader.com for show notes of this and all podcast episodes. Go to learningleader.com. Now, on to tonight's featured leader. Shaka Sengor spent 19 years in prison for killing a man. He's since transformed his life through not making excuses and taking full ownership of his decisions. Now, he's a New York Times bestselling author who has been called a quote, "soul igniter" by Oprah. His latest book is called,

• 2:14Ryan Hawk?

  "How to Be Free: A Proven Guide to Escaping Life's Hidden Prisons." During our conversation, we discussed what happened on that night many years ago when he decided to shoot a man, which ultimately led to his death, why he did it, and what he's learned from it. Then Shaka takes us inside what it was like in prison, including seven years in solitary confinement. Then he shares the importance of the mentors in his life, both the ones he met in prison and outside of it. This is a raw and honest look at the life of a guy who has made mistakes,

• 2:58Ryan Hawk?

  learned from them, and is helping people in a big way. Ladies and gentlemen, please enjoy my conversation with Shaka Senghor. Let's go to your story, man, because it's super inspiring and there's a lot to get to. So, growing up, you're an honor roll student. You have dreams of becoming a doctor one day, scholarships, all this stuff. And then you are 17 years old and you get shot three times, standing on the corner of your block in Detroit.

• 3:36Ryan Hawk?

  And then 14 months later, you made a choice that changed your life forever. What did you choose to do that day?

• 3:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, when I think of that night, that pivotal night, 1991, 2:00 in the morning, I got into a conflict. And I had created this narrative after I got shot when I was 17 that said, if I found myself in a conflict, I would shoot first. And 14 months later, I got into a conflict and fired what turned out to be four shots that tragically caused the man's death, for which I was subsequently arrested, charged with open murder, and sentenced to 17 to 40 years in prison for second degree murder.

• 4:20Ryan Hawk?

  What happened that night? What made you choose to shoot first?

• 4:23Speaker 01

  You know, when I reflect back on that night, I think there were a combination of things and one, one I always just want to start with this. It is one of the most regrettable horrendous decisions that I could have ever made that night. And because I think it's important for people to understand. That decision was filtered through high levels of gun trauma, child abuse, et cetera. And it's not an excuse, it's an explanation because I think it's really important for people to understand how a human being with so much potential can arrive in that moment. And for me, what it came down to was simply being afraid. I was afraid that something was going to happen to me and I reacted out of that fear

• 5:06Speaker 01

  in the most extreme of ways and tragically caused a man's death. Something that I live with to this day, no matter how much forgiveness I've received or how far away from that incident, you know, the reality is that that's one of those things that is permanent. It's one of the things I try to preach to young people about understanding the permanence of a 30 second decision.

• 5:29Ryan Hawk?

  You go on to serve 19 years in jail, seven of those years in solitary confinement, which blows my mind. I want to dig into some of the things that happened over the course of those 19 years. One of the things you talked about and you've written about is the importance of mentors, even mentors in prison. Can you go deeper on some of the people you met, including the ones who were there for life, but some of the ones that you met that changed your life while you were in prison?

• 5:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know, and I, I served a total of 19 years and, and, you know, I describe it as, you know, a tale of two worlds. Basically, it was the best of times and truly the worst of times. And in the midst of that horrendous environment, I discovered some of the most incredible human beings imaginable. These are men who are serving life sentences and they just came equipped with so much wisdom about what's on the other side of a prison sentence. As you can imagine, when I went in, I was 19 and I was facing nearly two decades. So I didn't think anything was on the other side of that prison sentence, other than dying in prison, because at 19, you just can't imagine two decades in the future that you'll

• 6:42Speaker 01

  ever be out of prison. And so those mentors, they guided me to books and those books completely shattered all of the old narratives and really opened me up to the possibilities that there could be a life after this environment, but I had to be willing to do the work.

• 7:01Ryan Hawk?

  What were some of the books that you read initially that opened your eyes to the power of books?

• 7:07Speaker 01

  This is always one of my favorite questions. I've read tons of books, a lot of philosophy, Plato, Meditations and Machiavelli. And, you know, I read all of these incredible philosophy books, but I really started with books that were not considered philosophical. They were books with titles like Pimp by Iceberg Slim, Dope Thing by Donald Gohens, Black Gangster by Donald Gohens. But what those books did is they became my gateway and they became my gateway to just understanding that the written word held treasures that I can unwrap anytime that I was willing to venture into a book. And so I began to read everything,

• 7:46Speaker 01

  Stephen King, Sidney Sheldon. The most transformative book, what I would say would be Malcolm X's autobiography because I saw myself in that story. But I, I probably read over 1500 books throughout my incarceration and I was a voracious reader as I am now, but I knew that that was going to give me an opportunity to imagine a new life for myself.

• 8:10Ryan Hawk?

  Wow. Isn't it cool what, I didn't grow up like a super curious kid. I'd read like sports books, like little ones, not like a lot, but then remember getting my professional life and somebody gave me Good to Great, that book about like going from good to great from a business. And I remember finishing it thinking, this is insane. Like how much I've learned just from reading a book. And what I think the cool thing about that books can do is one then leads to the next and the next and the next, because you didn't even realize like the power of just the written word. I'd love to hear more about you. 1500, that's crazy. I'd imagine, you know, I haven't been in jail, but it sounds like that's what you were spending the bulk of your time doing, either talking to mentors or reading books.

• 8:55Speaker 01

  Absolutely. So when I was a kid, when I was about eight years old, I learned how to speed read. And it was one of the things that I loved. And my love for reading started with me getting put on punishment. So whenever my parents would put me on punishment, you know, there was no TV, no radio, there was only encyclopedias. And so I know a bunch of random things. I probably know some of the most random facts. My son is always amazed when we're watching Jeopardy. And he's like, how you know that, Dad? I'm like, probably from a punishment when I was about your age. But what books did for me was they allowed me to escape in the most literal sense of getting out of the world that I was in. And so whenever I was in my cell, which was a lot, because I'd spent most of my time in

• 9:40Speaker 01

  higher security levels, I just read. You know, I would read anything and then I would break it up to where I would go to the library and I would get five fiction books and two nonfiction. It gave me a great balance. And people underestimate the power of fiction to really speak the truth. And so I'm still a big fan of fiction. I don't read it as much as I used to because I'm busy reading other nonfiction things. But I looked at books as a portal into other worlds. And I really understood early on that that portal into other worlds was, one, it was a blessing because the average reading grade level in

• 10:22Speaker 01

  prison is third grade. So I was fortunate just to be literate in an environment where literacy is not the norm. And it's something that I would never take for granted. It's why I'm still, you know, read as much as I do now because it truly is a privilege.

• 10:37Ryan Hawk?

  One of the other things it can lead to, especially in your case, is becoming an excellent writer. I know if I get any sort of writer's block, it's usually because I haven't read enough or I haven't been reading enough. And so you obviously read a ton of books and then started writing. And now you're a New York Times bestselling author. I was just rereading your most recent one leading up to today. Struggling to stop, you know what I mean? Like, that's when you know a book is good, when you're really struggling to put the thing down or struggling to, I like to read on the elliptical, it's kind of weird, but like on my iPad, and I'm just going forever, which is kind of good, right? Because I'm working my body and my mind at the same time.

• 11:18Ryan Hawk?

  But, but I think that's the mark of a really good book, when you really struggle to stop. So what was it about reading that led to you becoming such a good writer?

• 11:27Speaker 01

  I love the craft, and to be a practitioner of the craft, you have to do it every day. So for me, what reading did, it inspired me, like, just learning new words and, you know, reading some of the greatest writers ever. I was always fascinated with their minds, right? Like, you know, I think about Stephen King, and like, how incredibly curious his mind had to be for him to be that brilliant of a writer. And so for me, I just fell in love with words, you know? I fell in love with the ability for people to transport me into other spaces. I love autobiographical writings because I just love really exploring a person's inner world, and how do they think about adversity? How do they think about happiness and joy?

• 12:10Speaker 01

  And it just allowed me to feel those things. And I knew as a writer, I wanted to be one who captured the senses that people experience. I wanted to be able to really transport you into that world and keep you there as long as possible, so that you can really get the depth of what it is that I wanted to share. And so I'm happy to hear the new book is resonating in such a way that you were able to burn a few new calories. So that's, that's always a great sign.

• 12:35Ryan Hawk?

  Well, it also has this journal-like feel, almost like you're letting me read your diary.

• 12:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:41Ryan Hawk?

  I don't know, we kind of like that idea. And it's also really scary, some of the people you've written about, especially in your childhood, where the potential abuse and your parents having regrets over maybe not protecting you, like, that's, it's hard to read, but also...

• 12:58Ryan Hawk?

  Again, maybe the wrong word, like fascinating to read about your story and how you're willing to kind of put it out there. That takes some guts. I'm curious about your willingness to be vulnerable and to have the guts to share just the raw truth of your pain of you having to be resilient, of you fighting through of the difficult conversations you've had with your parents, right? I'd love to hear how you approach that and your willingness to publicly share it.

• 13:28Speaker 01

  You know, it's one of the things that I had to reconcile very early on as a writer. And I think the reason I'm able to be so vulnerable is because I discovered that I can actually write a whole book through journaling. So about 25 years ago, when I first started this, the deep transformative journey, it started through journaling. And through that journaling, I was just able to get so real with myself and so honest. And it was the most healing experience I've ever had, was to be able to speak to my truth, speak to the pain points. You know, the things that I'm talking about in this book, I think are invaluable for society, especially for, you know, people navigating their own hidden prisons, things that they

• 14:11Speaker 01

  haven't been able to talk about. And I wanted to be a guide in that way because I've really lived through some tough things, things that are unimaginable for most people. And most people will never live through a lot of these things, but there are some things that we all grapple with shame, anger, guilt, you know, grief. No one's going to get through this life without going through grief. And I felt like the work that I've done over the years to kind of fortify my spirit really equips me with all the things I need to share in such a vulnerable way and give other people permission to do so as well, which is how I've really arrived here.

• 14:48Ryan Hawk?

  You wrote that prison is designed to break you. What you discovered is that the most powerful prisons aren't the ones made of concrete and steel. They're the ones we carry with us. As you said, built from grief, anger, shame, trauma, and self doubt. Here's what I've learned. Prisons have doors and those doors can be opened. How do you help others? Maybe people who haven't gone to prison, but maybe they have prisons within their own mind. How do you help people open up the prisons within their own mind?

• 15:19Speaker 01

  One of the ways that I help people open up is helping them recognize that they have a community of people who have broken free. What I discovered on my journey was that I was in prison before, I was step foot in the cell, and I was free before they ever let me out. And I discovered that when I realized that I had bought into a narrative that was handed down to me early on that said, "Your life can only end up in prison or dead." And when I looked around my community at the gun violence, I looked at how many of my friends had been murdered or ended up in prison, I bought into that narrative. And once I discovered that I can change that narrative internally, I knew that, one, I had to create a community of other peoples who desired that.

• 16:03Speaker 01

  And so that started in prison with doing study groups and things of that nature. And since I've been out, I've been able to share in such an open and honest way that I get people from every walk of life you can imagine, from ultra-successful VCs to just an everyday person trying to unlock a thing that they felt has held them in place. And being in community has really created space for, one, us to share. It's one of the most natural things we crave as human beings, is to really connect with other human beings. What has happened in society is that we started to shame people for being vulnerable, specifically men. Men were taught very early on that we can't cry, we can't be soft, we can't show any care.

• 16:48Speaker 01

  And what I'm saying is that I am dispelling that myth, because I've already lived through the toughest things imaginable, so I don't have to prove toughness. And what I've been able to do is articulate the power of vulnerability, the power of being present in your own life, and really taking a risk and a chance to be in community with others who seek the same thing. And I think that's one of the greatest unlocks that we all have access to.

• 17:12Ryan Hawk?

  It's a really powerful part of your book, your most recent one, and... You quote Brene Brown, and I think she's been a champion with this stuff too over the past few years. What has happened in leadership shock, I think, is there are some people though, who use it as a tool to manipulate other people. And I don't like that element of vulnerability, right? They overshare, or, or they share some sort of trauma that maybe isn't even true, because it they use as a tool to hopefully get people to like them or to feel bad for them. How do we get this right? How do we make sure that we share in a raw, true, honest way, but not overshare or not overdo it to where it starts getting to be like cringey to some people,

• 17:56Ryan Hawk?

  because they feel like people are using it in the wrong way?

• 17:59Speaker 01

  I think that human beings, we as a species, we have this innate ability to really suss out the truth, right? And so authenticity in vulnerability is the super unlock. And being true to your center, right? Like I knew going into corporate that, you know, I couldn't be as candid about my experiences. I could maybe be in a nonprofit setting, right? Where kind of sharing trauma is a healing way that you get things done. But in corporate, what I found is true to what you said, right? There is the ability to exploit. And, you know, we always have to be aware of that. But I think when you have a great leadership who leads with vulnerability and say, hey, here's the direction the company is really going in. I'm not going

• 18:44Speaker 01

  to sell you on the idea that everything is okay. And so that professional vulnerability is important for leadership. Now, a leader coming in and saying, you know, me and my wife got into a dust up last night, and I think she was really wrong. That, that is like very manipulative and very, you know, dishonest in terms of like, what it means to be a vulnerable leader, because now you're just dumping your problems on your whole team and wanting us to solve for it. But I think that honesty in terms of saying, hey, here's how you're performing. You really ace this. Or hey, I think you can step it up a little bit and do it in a way that's not weaponized is one of the most empowering things you can do. And I've had that experience. And I had a great CEO at our company, and we would have these

• 19:27Speaker 01

  Very candid, kind of sometimes knock down, drag out conversations. But I knew that he wanted me to be my best. Because that's what we built the foundation on is that, hey, we're going to agree to challenge each other, to push each other to grow together. And we're going to be in this thing together. We're going to not agree all the time. But if we are always honest, we'll get to a desired outcome. And to me, that's great leadership.

• 19:52Ryan Hawk?

  Great leadership. So I have a really healthy culture too, where you can disagree, you can commit, you get going. But you're not afraid to to see it and say it. One of the people you write about in your acknowledgement section, which I enjoyed reading. Is a guy that I feel like I've read has been talking about you for a while is Ben Horowitz. You wrote, thank you for being the dopest, rawest and realest friend and brother. What's that relationship like with Ben Horowitz? And how did you guys get so close?

• 20:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, Ben and I are like literally like brothers. It's one of my life experiences that when I look back on. The likelihood of us becoming really best friends and great friends. Uh, it's something nobody could have written that script. We were from vastly different experiences. But the thing we have so much in common, you know, uh, and it's, it's really started with like. A great conversation over music, which stemmed from. He met Oprah, Oprah told him about my story. He shared that with his wife, Felisa. Felisa looked me up and was like, hey, we would love to go out to dinner with you all. And I talk about that in the books, a great, great story. But from that dinner, Ben and I ended up hanging out one night till about three in the morning.

• 21:02Speaker 01

  Literally just talking history, culture, business, you know, music. And that was kind of the bridge that really brought us together. And you know, you think about. Someone like Ben, Ben doesn't need new friends, right? If anything, he has to protect himself from. You know, many people trying to become friends and same with myself. It's like I'm, I'm very nice and kind, but I'm not super. Like, hey, let's just like pal around. Like we got to really build trust and we got to build authenticity. And so our relationship, man, is is real as it gets, you know, he's one of the people that I go to when I have an idea. About something and and he gives me just, you know, honest. Feedback, his thoughts and the same with him, right? He'll come to me with an idea.

• 21:43Speaker 01

  And you know, if it's an amazing dope idea, I'm like, yo, I love this. If not, I'm like, you know, have you thought about it this way? Right. And so we get a chance to talk about life, you know, how do we impact the world? I think I'm the leader that I am now at this stage of my life and my career because of, you know, our conversations. And I'm just fortunate to have friends across many sectors of my life that we just get to the truth really, really fast.

• 22:07Ryan Hawk?

  You know, one of the commonalities I've seen shotgun people and leaders specifically who have sustained excellence over an extended period of time. Is that right there is that they surround themselves with high character, highly competent people who are willing to tell them the truth. And you're willing to tell them the truth. And again, hitting back on the mentors thing, which we started on earlier with what you learned in prison from some of those wiser, older people who got you on the books. That kind of kitchen cabinet or that personal board of advisors, your foxhole group of friends. I feel like that is absolutely one of the things that separates the great, most productive achievers in the world

• 22:52Ryan Hawk?

  from those who are just average or good. Can you go deeper on creating your who of being very intentional about those people you choose to have in your life?

• 23:04Speaker 01

  That actually goes back to my time spent in prison and we had a very distorted philosophy around how you build friendships. And the criteria was when you look at this person, are they willing to serve a life sentence for you? Or are they willing to die for you? So it's the most extreme kind of social connecting points in the most extreme environments. But fundamentally, what it came back to is does this person really have your back in your best interest at heart? And what we developed in there was accountability. You know, if you say you're gonna be on the yard this day to be in a study group about a book we are reading, then you have to show up and be accountable. And if not, you owe us pushups. You know, you owe us laps on the track.

• 23:48Speaker 01

  You owe us pullups to prove that, hey, I wasn't just dismissing my responsibility, and I'm gonna be accountable. And so that accountability factor became really integral to how I think about friendships. How do you show up as a father is really important to me. How do you show up if you're married? Like, those things are really important because those are the building blocks of your life, right? It's like, how do you treat your family? Are you loyal to them? If you can't be loyal to your family, it's impossible for you to be loyal to me. And I think the same shows true in work, right? Where you have attrition, you have people who are just on board for the good parts of the business. But what about when things go wrong? Are those people gonna get in the trenches with you?

• 24:30Speaker 01

  And if you really understand their personal ecosystem, you'll know what type of character you're dealing with. That's the criteria, you know, of friendships for me is like, can we get honest with each other really fast? Uh, I mean, I've had friendships that started in one conversation that's endured forever. You know, one of my best friends, he's now free. His name is Calvin. I talk about him in the book. He did 24 years for a crime he didn't commit. And the way he showed up as a human being with joy and laughter, to this day, as much as I've gone through, I'm never sure if I can get to where he's been. But he's one of the people that I can just talk his ear off about, here's what I'm dreaming about life.

• 25:13Speaker 01

  And he's always there, and, and now he's free and living his life. And we keep each other accountable. You know, he's, he's in Detroit, I'm in LA. We check in. Hey, are you, how's, how's things going with what you're building? How can I support? If either of us are kinda like falling off, we're pushing each other, you know? And so that, to me, sets up success in so many other areas of life. Fatherhood, I wouldn't be the father I am without the friends that I have. Being a husband now, like, I wouldn't be able to navigate a relationship without having people who I trust, who have done it far longer than I've done. And so all those things kinda ladder up to business and life and entrepreneurship.

• 25:54Ryan Hawk?

  Well, having those people that have your back, especially when it's tough, whether you're in prison or not, when you were in though, how scary was it like violence physically, all the stuff that you hear about, was that real for you? Did you have to deal with that? How did you manage it if it was real? I am curious about that.

• 26:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, you know, the first prison I went into was called the Gladiator School is Michigan Reformatory in Ionia. It was called the Gladiator School and it was like, you know, the extreme levels of violence, you know, you're dealing with 1,500 or so young guys from between the age of 15 to like 27. I mean, my first day in prison, a guy got stabbed in the corridor going to the child hall and it set the tone for what I understood that environment to be. It's going to be the most extremely violent. You got a choice in whether you're going to be a lion or a lamb. And, you know, you had to be willing to defend yourself. Now, there's tons of ways to stay out of the mix of things, right? Kind of stay to yourself, don't gamble, don't play basketball or football or get

• 26:59Speaker 01

  in a mix of everything and you can kind of try to fly be below the radar. It's a tough environment. It's very predatory. It's very alpha, male oriented and violence rules the kind of yard, right? Like might is right in that environment. And so, you know, I always tell people, like, I wasn't a model prisoner by any stretch of the imagination, the first part of my incarceration. I mean, I was in maximum security. I accumulated about 35 misconducts that ranged from assault on staff, assault on inmate, dangerous contraband. I was in it, but I had also come from a violent street environment. So really, it was like another neighborhood. And sadly and tragically, that's the case for a lot of, a lot of the men in there. But fortunately, you know, we began to realize that we had

• 27:44Speaker 01

  the choice and the means to kind of change the narrative of that environment. And so, instead of a first reaction, violence became kind of a last resort, you know, we learned to be diplomatic. But the reality was diplomacy only worked as far as you were willing to go in terms of violence if necessary. And, you know, it took years for me to kind of work that out of my system and recognize that my ability to articulate things from a diplomatic standpoint was master level in terms of skill set. And it allowed me to really resolve problems in a nonviolent way.

• 28:19Ryan Hawk?

  How do you manage that now? I mean, it's different. You're out in the world, but there are still moments where people have to defend themselves or anything happens. You're a family man, right? You protect your family above all else. Did you ever experience any of that now? Or how do you use some of the skills that you developed while in prison of maybe not having to use violence? Or to be violent, or even to defend yourself, because if not, you could be really hurt or killed? What did you learn in there that you now use out here?

• 28:47Speaker 01

  What I learned in there is that violence, especially reactionary violence, is typically born out of fear, being afraid. And if you think about a prison environment, so much about that existence is proven that you're unafraid, even when you are afraid. And what I've learned as a man and just growing up and navigating life is that fear is okay. Fear is actually a safety to it. It's probably the thing that kept our ancestors from getting, you know, mauled by lions and tigers back, back in the day, just a healthy dose of fear. And so what I've learned is that, one, try not to put myself in environments that even can escalate to a conflict whenever possible, right? And which isn't always doable, right?

• 29:28Speaker 01

  I've had dust ups happen since I've been out in society where I was like, okay, I have a choice here. And what I centered on is like, I know who I am. Like, I don't have anything to prove in this outcome. So how can I help this person who I'm really looking at, you know, a child showing up in an adult body? And once I was able to see the child in people, it stops me from being over reactionary, right? And then there was another part of me that at one point I was afraid to actually become angry, because the last time I had become really angry almost led to me never getting out of prison. And so it wasn't until I gave myself permission to be a full human being and to say, you know what, I'm actually really angry about this situation.

• 30:12Speaker 01

  And I can think about something that's harmful to this person. But I'm not going to react to that thought. And that I'm going to develop other thoughts, right? And so I started to think about who this person is as a human being. And now that takes a long time to get there, right? That's development, repetition, over time. But I think if you just start to practice it where you can see the child in the person that's acting out. What is this person afraid of? Why are they showing up so angry at something that doesn't even rise to the occasion to be angry about? And if you can see that child in that person, it really equips you to have more empathy and compassion. And to be able to stand on whatever principles that you have without escalating to a thing that becomes a potentially violent conflict.

• 30:57Ryan Hawk?

  What was the event that almost caused you to stay in jail?

• 31:00Speaker 01

  I got into a conflict with physical altercation with an officer, which led to me being in solitary confinement for four and a half years. And so this officer and I, we got into this conflict and it escalated into a full on fight. And I ended up being sentenced to an additional two years in prison. And what turned out to be four and a half years in solitary confinement as a result. And it's the thing about my prison experience that it took me years to reconcile that. I didn't think that I was wrong in my reaction to the instigation. But in hindsight, there were steps that I could have took, even when it was escalated, to walk away from that situation. And I just wasn't willing to back down.

• 31:44Speaker 01

  You know, it almost cost me the rest of my life in prison.

• 31:48Ryan Hawk?

  One of the things you talked about in the resilience chapter, chapter six, is every month while you're in solitary confinement, you would fast for three days. Why would you do that?

• 32:01Speaker 01

  So one of the ways that whenever the officers were upset, they could concoct a means by which to deprive you of regular food and put you on food restriction, which consisted of what we call food loaf. So they would take all the food of the day, mash it up, bake it into this brick, and then serve you that for a meal. And usually they took all the leftover food from the week and just mixed it up with oatmeal and Jell-O, compounded it into this brick, and then they would serve it to you. And so because I was in there for an assault on an officer, and some of the officers didn't like me, I had to prepare myself for them depriving me of food. And that was the initial start of it. But what I discovered that it was one of the greatest

• 32:45Speaker 01

  lessons on resilience and discipline and healing and quieting the mind and the body and learning to trust myself, you know, trust myself in moments of extreme hunger that I would be all right. And it's the thing that I, you know, I, I apply to this day, you know, not necessarily the physical fast, but more of that mental toughness and resilience and knowing that whatever adversity that I'm going through, I have the mental fortitude to navigate my way through it.

• 33:15Ryan Hawk?

  I feel like voluntary hardship is a great way to prepare yourself for the inevitable adversity that you will face, even though that's unknown. So something like, one of the phrases I like to use is just take the stairs. So like when the stairs are right next to the elevator or like an escalator at an airport, just choosing the one that's a little bit harder, it's still not that hard just to walk upstairs, but it's a little bit harder than just standing on an escalator. And I feel like that's a much smaller version of you choosing to like prepare yourself that you might not get food. And so you want to mentally and physically prepare yourself to do that. How do you do that in other elements of life? Or how could that be helpful for other people

• 33:58Ryan Hawk?

  to prepare themselves for the inevitable adversity that's going to strike for them?

• 34:04Speaker 01

  What I realize is that none of us get through life without suffering. At some point, none of us are going to get through life without adversity, without hardship. I mean, it could be a sick parent. It can be a loss at a job. You name it, we're going to go through it. And I think that practice of challenging yourself, right? Setting a goal for yourself. I mean, you know, I do it as a writer, you know, you have to be disciplined to finish a book. Now, I love chaos. I love to write on planes, trains, automobiles when a lot is going on around me, but with inside that there's still the discipline, right, of showing up and making sure I'm pushing myself. And so what I would say to your audience is that don't be afraid of

• 34:46Speaker 01

  challenging yourself, pushing yourself, setting a goal for yourself, whatever it is, you know, whether you want to write, whether you want to get in shape, whether you want to get that job that you really desire, just put in that extra work and see that work as the discipline, see that as the fast, right? That extra hour a week, you know, can change your life's outcomes. And if you're willing to do it, and you'll be so proud of yourself is the other part. You know, I remember the first time I did that three day fast. The first time I tried it, I didn't succeed. I stopped at like day two, but I was, I was proud, you know, when I got to day three, and I was even prouder when I got to it like the third or fourth time,

• 35:27Speaker 01

  because at that point, it was easy. Giving yourself to something to be proud of is something I always encourage people to do, you know, writing in your journal, meditating, exercising, whatever that thing is that you feel gives you a sense of accomplishment, I say do it consistently, uh, and it's a game changer.

• 35:45Ryan Hawk?

  Yeah, when you choose it for yourself, and then you do it and follow through, one, you like gain trust, and I believe confidence, because you do what you say you're gonna do, you followed through on something hard. And I think confidence needs evidence, and at that point, you just regularly were creating evidence for yourself that you can do the hard thing, whatever the hard thing is. And I think that's portable to other parts of your life. Like, I can do the three day fast. I've proven to myself I can do the hard thing. I have this evidence. So whatever the next hard thing is, perhaps it's one that I do not choose, I can do it. I can do that thing. And I, I think that's, that's a big part of your story too, of resilience of choosing to do that because it prepares you for whatever

• 36:30Ryan Hawk?

  that hard thing is going to be. And you'll be better suited to handle it and to get through it and to thrive through it by regularly practicing it for yourself.

• 36:39Speaker 01

  Absolutely. And it's exactly what you say, it's that evidence, right? Like, you know, I, when I was writing a book, my son was diagnosed with type one diabetes.

• 36:50Speaker 01

  And when I tell you it was one of the hardest things to have to reconcile in real time, you know, as a dad, you know, I've done everything I can to protect my son from my experiences and what my life was. And, you know, to have such an incredible kid have to grapple with a life-changing event and to be a dad and have to sit with that and be present with him and be his strength when he's going through the most difficult time of his young life, those prior lessons really equipped me with how to be steady. You know, the vulnerability was there, you know, I had to be vulnerable with my son and say, hey, you know, this is a tough journey and sometime life gives challenges to warriors

• 37:35Speaker 01

  that, you know, you didn't ask for, right? But it was given to you. And I wouldn't have been able to do that if I hadn't have gone through and overcome those tough things, especially the self-imposed ones, because they allowed me to get over the ones that were not ideally chosen. And so I encourage people to think about those moments in their life when they're going to be confronted with something tough. And it's not to scare people, like, you know, this is inevitability of life, right? Is that you're going to go through things. And some of them aren't going to be extreme. And what I tell people is you can't get into the trauma comparisons, right? Because your challenge doesn't have to be as tough as that. But you're going to go through life challenges, right? And

• 38:16Speaker 01

  if you prepare yourself, you're just better equipped to navigate those things and lead and come out on the other side with positive outcomes.

• 38:24Ryan Hawk?

  You also become more composed. You write about composure. You say it's a lifelong practice. It's the art of balancing ambition with patience of navigating the rip currents of life without losing your sense of self. It's about standing firm in your identity even when others try to impose their narratives on you. Composure is so key from a leadership perspective. Shaka, you know this. And again, your work can really help people develop this skill. And I believe it is a skill to develop. You feel like a very composed leader, a very composed human. What have you done to develop this really useful skill of being a composed person?

• 39:05Speaker 01

  When I think about what really led me here, it was journaling. Because when I journaled, I would go back and read the times when I wasn't composed, when I didn't have it together, when I lost my way, when I allowed circumstances to drive my actions versus me really accessing them and knowing the cost of losing it, right? Which was, you know, led to that fatal night of pulling that trigger. And when you have something that is a reminder, that's serious and that deep and that life-changing, if you can tap into the conscious awareness that there's a different path you can take, you can help other people find that within themselves. One of the things that I learned being at the company,

• 39:51Speaker 01

  we, you know, had to navigate the pandemic as a travel and expense company. When travel completely came to a halt. And I mean, our CEO could have said, you know what? That's it for this company. I'm going to build something else. But his ability to see the future and to calm everybody in the company by pulling us together and saying, here's our strengths. You know, let's look at all this stuff on paper. Here's what we've actually accomplished. It's the same thing for me as journaling. I was able to go back and say, you know, here's my weaknesses. You know, this anger, this is what this anger has led me to. What about the times I navigated life when I wasn't angry? And what was the positive outcome that created? So having that evidence, right?

• 40:34Speaker 01

  Uh, is why I just encourage people to journal throughout the book. I keep coming back to the power of writing it down and seeing it. Because once you've kind of written it down, you own it. And when you own it, you can control it. And when you can control it... You know, it's easy to become composed, right? And not lose it in traffic when somebody cuts you off. Or, you know, some of one of your colleagues are not being earnest and honest. And you're just like, you wanna lose it in that all hands meeting. You can kind of sit with that and say, you know what? I'm gonna lead with a positive outcome in mind and not derail this whole thing because I got caught up in the moment. And I think that's some of the unlocks that I offer.

• 41:16Speaker 01

  Because we all have those hidden prisons that, you know, in the design of the book, I put a door that Lily is open. Cause like sometime you go back into these prisons, right? You don't always get out and stay out. Some of them can pull you back in, grief being one of them, right? It's easy to get pulled back into that. You can be triggered by a song or an experience, or someone else dies, or you lose another opportunity. But if you have those tools in your toolbox, you know what to do every time.

• 41:46Ryan Hawk?

  Let's get practical for a second when it comes to journaling. Cause I I'm with you. I think you don't fully know what you think or believe about something until you get the thoughts out of your head onto the page. What is your journaling? Is it just blank page, free write? Are there prompts? Is it a combination of those? What's your journaling like actually look like when you do it?

• 42:07Speaker 01

  So one of the, one of the things for me, I I give myself permission to be completely in presence. Like just super present with myself. And so it looks a lot of different ways, right? I have actually about 20 different journals. And some I may choose one day because I like the texture of the paper. My wife bought me this beautiful kind of tattered journal. It's one of my favorites to write in because the paper is kind of ruffled. And just that feeling of writing on that paper really kind of moves my thoughts forward. Uh, sometime it's, I'm in the shower and I'm just like, I'm struck by a thought. And I'm like, you know what? I hop out and I journal in my notes on my phone. You know, sometime I'm reading a great book and I'm struck by something that triggers a whole train of thought.

• 42:51Speaker 01

  So most of my books have like some of the best internal dialogue that I have with myself. And so what I try to do is structure, I think, is really powerful and beautiful as are boundaries. I think you can get super free in those, but also kind of deconstruct some of those things. Because what's inside must come out. And so I try to give myself permission to just get it out as whatever way, you know, I'm feeling and, and, and then there is also that very meditative, intentional, I got some Coltrane playing in the background, candles lit, lights are dim, I'm in my office and I'm just in a zone of free flowing thoughts, which I really love, love that as well.

• 43:34Ryan Hawk?

  You write a lot from where you're at right now?

• 43:36Speaker 01

  I do. So I come out, I come out here, I write a lot on planes, which is like one of my favorite places to, to write, you know, whenever I'm traveling, I get excited when I have like a long flight, cause I'm like, oh, I'm about to get a lot of writing done. But yeah, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm here in my office sometime late, two, three in the morning. And then, you know, sometime I'm just sitting on the couch, zoned out, depending on, you know, what my wife or my son is doing. And, you know, I just try to find different spaces, you know, I go, and it's different phases too, right? So when I'm in that first kind of ideating phase, I'm mostly in public spaces. Cause I just, I love observing people and behavior and, you know, I have my headphones on, you know,

• 44:18Speaker 01

  zoned out. But then when I get down to that deep storytelling, this is, I'm kind of hunkered down in my office.

• 44:24Ryan Hawk?

  It's kind of interesting how everyone has their different way. Like I personally love, love the early, early morning hours. It's dark. I don't turn the lights on. It's just the, the light of my laptop. My family's asleep. It's just me, you know, like I don't have to answer to anybody for maybe an hour and a half or so. And it's like, let's go and get it all out. And it, I feel like it's just an amazing, that combined within a physical workout. I don't know if there's a better, for me, a better way to start the day than to get all the thoughts out, to get all the writing out there, then physically punish my body like in the weight room or running or whatever. It's like, let's go. That's just an amazing way. I think everybody needs to find what their thing is, like figure out

• 45:08Ryan Hawk?

  their way. I do think writing though should be a part of that for all leaders to get clear, to understand themselves better, to really. Figure out like what you believe about something. You just gotta do some of that hard work of getting those thoughts out. And I feel like that's something that you're really, really good at.

• 45:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, I, I, I agree with you, you know, I, I started a day with meditation. Usually I just try to, to meditate and then I do like a gratitude offering of just finding small things that I'm thankful for. I think it's so powerful now we have so much technology at our disposal. Journaling can look any kind of way, you know, sometimes it's a voice memo. If you're super busy and you're like, you know what, I don't got the pee in a pad handy. Throw that voice memo on, cause you, you, it's, it's when you're in the moment of it all. There is something so profound about being able to go back and see how you thought about a thing in the moment versus you've had time, you know? So, you know, those are great unlocks for leaders and I really hope people just take

• 46:10Speaker 01

  all of these kinds of exercises, these kinds of tactical things and really apply them to life, you know, this, this book was so fun to write and it was tough to write as well. But the fun part of it is I know that it's going to help a lot of people unlock their full potential and like, that just brings me so much joy to know that I'm additive in that way.

• 46:30Ryan Hawk?

  Yeah, one more thing from the book, chapter 10, I just love this quote you use. I'm probably going to use that at some point. So you're right about success. And there's this Florence Nightingale quote that you have to start it that says, quote, "I attribute my success to this. I never gave or took any excuse." What does that quote mean to you?

• 46:52Speaker 01

  To me, it means everything, you know, when I'm mentoring, there's two things that I really challenge my mentees on. One, take every excuse off the table. Other one is master your thinking, you can master your destiny. And for me, the excuse is really built into my experience of getting out of prison with a felony and having a felony on my record, being convicted of a violent crime, having spent two decades in prison. I had every excuse in a book not to succeed. And so for me, even though other people thought those excuses should lead to me leading a mediocre life, I chose to lead a great life.

• 47:32Speaker 01

  And I chose to face those adversities head on, face those obstacles head on, find a way, make a way, create a way, ask for a way. And that's how I consistently have shown up in my life and it's led to one of the most magical lives ever. The things that I get a chance to experience, I talk about in a book. It's something that is beyond most human beings comprehension, but the secret sauce to that is I removed every excuse. I'm not going to allow my past to define me. I'm going to choose a future of my own making and then I'm going to put the work in. And it's going to be tough and it's going to be hard and doors are going to be slammed in my face and closed and people are going to, you know, hold me hostage to the felony.

• 48:17Speaker 01

  And I'm going to keep putting one foot forward every single day, every minute of the day, every second. And if I continue to do that, life will look different and I will be able to live and experience life in a beautiful, magical way. And that's what I've done and that's what I want to show other people how to do.

• 48:37Ryan Hawk?

  I never gave or took any excuse. Master your thinking, master your destiny. The book is called How to Be Free: A Proven Guide to Escaping Life's Hidden Prison. Shaka, extremely not surprising, considering your TED Talk and all the other things you've written, it's extremely well done. And as I told you, I'm just standing there like moving on the elliptical, not stopping, uh, just swiping to the next page because it's really well done. So thank you for writing it and thank you for being here, man. I would love to continue our dialogue as we both progress, man.

• 49:09Speaker 01

  Absolutely. And thank you so much for having me. I'm looking forward to sharing these stories with your listenership. So truly honored to be here.

• 49:20Ryan Hawk?

  It is the end of the Podcast Club. Thank you for being a member of the End of the Podcast Club. If you are, send me a note, [email protected]. Let me know what you learned in this great conversation with Shaka Sengor. A few takeaways from my notes, quote, "I never gave or took any excuse." Leaders who sustain excellence over an extended period of time take full ownership of their lives and they do not make excuses, no matter what. Shaka has done that, and it's made him better for it. And when I look at all of the leaders over the course of a decade plus of this podcast, the ones who make a dent in the world, the ones like

• 50:02Ryan Hawk?

  Shaka, they never make excuses. And they also don't allow their friends and people in their lives to make them either. And then, "Master your thinking, master your destiny." Shaka shared the importance of thinking for yourself, reading and getting your thoughts out of your head onto the page through journaling. All leaders should do this if they want to impact others. If you're listening to this podcast, that is you. "Master your thinking, master your destiny." And then we talked about resilience. Every month in prison, he would fast for three days. He wouldn't eat. He'd prepare himself for not getting food. He wanted to

• 50:43Ryan Hawk?

  prove to himself that he could do it both mentally and physically. We can't be afraid to push ourselves, to challenge ourselves, to purposely choose the harder path, take the stairs instead of the escalator. We are preparing ourselves for the inevitable adversity that will strike. Once again, I want to say thank you so much for continuing to spread the message and telling a friend or two, "Hey, you should listen to this episode of the Learning Leader Show with Shaka Sengor. I think he'll help you become a more effective leader." And because you continue to do that, and you also go to Spotify and Apple Podcasts and you subscribe to the show and you're rated, hopefully, five stars, and you write a thoughtful review. By doing all of that, you are giving me the opportunity to do what

• 51:27Ryan Hawk?

  I love on a daily basis, and for that, I will forever be grateful. Thank you so, so much. Talk to you soon. Can't wait.