How to Stop Feeling Like It's You Against the World | Scott Barry Kaufman

Ever wondered why some people move past hardships while others get stuck in them? In this transformative conversation, Columbia professor Scott Barry Kaufman reveals the crucial difference between experiencing hardship and adopting a victim mindset, sharing research-backed strategies from his book, Rise Above: Overcome a Victim Mindset, Empower Yourself, and Realize Your Full Potential http://Scott Barry Kaufman. Learn how shifting your perspective on boredom, lowering certain life expectations, and changing simple self-talk patterns can unlock new levels of personal power and possibility. You can find Scott at: Website https://scottbarrykaufman.com/ | Instagram https://www.instagram.com/scottbarrykaufman/ | Episode Transcript https://www.goodlifeproject.com/podcast/self-actualization-victimhood-resilience-scott-barry-kaufman If you LOVED this episode, you’ll also love the conversations we had with Brené Brown https://pod.link/goodlifeproject/episode/Njc1YzkxZTc3ZThjMjhlNmFhNDA2ZDIx about embracing Vulnerability to fuel creative growth. Check out our offerings & partners: Join My New Writing Project: Awake at the Wheel https://jonathanfields.substack.com/aboutVisit Our Sponsor Page For Great Resources & Discount Codes https://www.goodlifeproject.com/sponsors/ Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jonathan Fields?

  So have you ever had that moment where you just kind of feel like the world, or maybe in one person or community, was kind of conspiring against you, or holding your back, or keeping you stuck, or trapped, or small, kind of like you're a victim without a whole lot of power to change things? If so, you are not alone. But sometimes there is a meaningful difference between feeling trapped or beaten down and the actual fact of our experience. And that's at the heart of today's conversation about the surprising difference between being a victim and living with what psychology now calls a victim mindset and what we can do about it. Think about those moments when you catch yourself feeling like the world is against you, like just every circumstance is a conspiracy to hold you back.

• 0:41Jonathan Fields?

  What if that feeling itself could become a signal, not of hopelessness, but of an opportunity to transform your entire relationship with life's challenges? And this is not also saying, put your head in the sand and ignore the reality of circumstance. And what if boredom, of all things, could be a gateway to unlimited possibility along the way? So my guest today is Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman, a professor at Columbia University and one of the world's most cited researchers on intelligence, creativity, and human potential. As director of the Center for Human Potential and founder of Self-Actualization Coaching, Scott has dedicated his career to understanding how we can realize our fullest potential. In his latest book, Rise Above: Overcome a Victim Mindset, Empower Yourself, and Realize

• 1:23Jonathan Fields?

  Your Full Potential, he offers a really fresh perspective on moving from victimhood to empowerment. One of the things that really fascinated me in our conversation was Scott's surprising take on boredom as a state of infinite possibility rather than a limitation. We explore how changing just one word in how you talk to yourself can dramatically shift your entire experience of daily challenges. And you're going to want to hear his perspective on why lowering your expectations about life might actually be a key to finding greater joy. So excited to share this provocative conversation with you. I'm Jonathan Fields, and this is Good Life Project.

• 2:04Speaker 01

  With no fees or minimums on checking accounts, it's no wonder the Capital One Bank guy is so passionate about banking with Capital One. If he were here, he wouldn't just tell you about no fees or minimums. He'd also talk about how most Capital One cafes are open seven days a week to assist with your banking needs. Yep, even on weekends. It's pretty much all he talks about, in a good way. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See capitalone.com/bank. Capital One, N.A. Member FDIC.

• 2:35Speaker 02

  Hi, this is Mark Bittman from the podcast Food with Mark Bittman. Cheers to fall savings at Whole Foods Market, home of the higher ingredient standards. This Halloween, share chocolates and candies made without that spooky high-fructose corn syrup. Throwing a party? Make it easy with a berry chantilly cake. Ready to cook pizza? No antibiotics ever chicken wings? And sushi? Made fresh daily. Fall gatherings never tasted better. Save through November 3rd at Whole Foods Market.

• 3:09Speaker 03

  This is a paid partnership with Apple Card. The coolest flex at brunch these days is not the Bloody Mary with the bottomless gold flake caviar topping. It's not whipping out your wallet to pay. It's not having a wallet at all. Jack's been an Apple Card user since 2019. That's the same year he tossed his wallet in the trash. Because Apple Card holders earn 2% daily cash back on purchases made using Apple Pay. It's the only credit card designed for the iPhone. I tap to pay with Apple Card at the grocery store, at the gas station, at restaurants. And yes, I use it at my second home, the farmer's market. Jack tapping to pay with his Apple Card with Apple Pay is his favorite thing to do. And the pleasant vibration and chime sound means I just got 2% daily cash back on my latest purchase. Apply in the Wallet app on your iPhone today. Subject to credit

• 3:51Speaker 03

  approval. Apple Card, issued by Goldman Sachs Bank, USA, Salt Lake City branch. Terms and more at applecard.com.

• 4:02Jonathan Fields?

  Scott Barry Kaufman, SBK, Scott.

• 4:04Speaker 04

  My man.

• 4:05Jonathan Fields?

  Good to be hanging out with you again.

• 4:06Speaker 04

  Jonathan.

• 4:07Jonathan Fields?

  It's been a couple of years since we've sat down with mics in front of us. You've been focusing on something that I think so many people are feeling in some way these days. I almost don't know somebody that hasn't dropped into this state of mind. It's this notion of feeling like you're a victim.

• 4:22Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 4:24Jonathan Fields?

  And really, we're going to drop in and explore that in a lot of different ways. But I want to make a distinction because you tease out this distinction in the beginning. And it's the difference between victim mindset and being a victim. Tease this out for me a little bit.

• 4:40Speaker 04

  Yeah, I think that it's very important, first of all, to distinguish between these things. Having been the recipient of a terrible event, it can be anything, abuse in childhood, it can be going through a pandemic. I think we kind of went through a collective situation there where we're all victims for sure of something that was out of our control. But the victim mindset is when you stay there perpetually and you blame all your current problems on that one thing that happened to you. And you stop taking responsibility and even you might forget that you have agency left. And you stop trying to be productive and hopeful.

• 5:25Speaker 04

  It can lead to a very dark place. It can lead to a real sense of helplessness and we can forget the resiliency that we actually have within us.

• 5:34Jonathan Fields?

  So, does a victim mindset always get precipitated by actually being a victim?

• 5:40Speaker 04

  No, it's interesting because I covered different types in my book. It's possible to have not been, it's possible to play the victim. That's a thing. People do that. People do that. People play the victim to get attention, to get social status, get rewards. I tend to have less empathy for those people than I do for those who have really had, truly had horrible things happen to them. And the only thing they know how to cope is by having a victim mindset. And I want to show compassionately, I want to show people that it's not their only option to cope.

• 6:12Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah. I mean, I think that word compassionate is really important in this conversation too.

• 6:16Speaker 04

  Extremely.

• 6:17Jonathan Fields?

  So often, you know, like somebody, maybe they are a victim, maybe they aren't a natural victim, but somehow they end up in this place where they feel like the world is against me.

• 6:26Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 6:26Jonathan Fields?

  Everything's conspiring against me. And we tend to look at that person, and if we can't point to something objectively that put them there, or maybe it was like a decade ago. Like, there's this tendency that sort of like, even if you don't verbalize or say this to the person, to kind of be like, seriously?

• 6:44Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 6:45Jonathan Fields?

  Still, like, like, can't you get, and there's like, there's a level of shame and blame that we tend to, to sort of like, offer into the.

• 6:50Speaker 04

  They know it, they feel it. They're not, they don't like it themselves. I mean, every time they hear themselves saying, you know, in conversation, oh, sorry, I can't go into Starbucks, my trauma when I was three, and like, they know it in their own bones. We don't need to like doubly shame them, and they already feel this sense of shame, and they want an escape. I mean, so many of these individuals feel stuck and imprisoned in their past. Irving Yalom has this wonderful quote, sooner or later, you have to give up all hope for a better past.

• 7:17Jonathan Fields?

  Hmm. Yeah, I love that quote. Um, how do we know if we're in this?

• 7:22Speaker 04

  If we're in it?

• 7:23Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah, somebody's listening to this, and maybe they're on the other side where like, all these people like, oh yeah, they're, they're that person.

• 7:31Speaker 04

  Hmm.

• 7:32Jonathan Fields?

  Or maybe somebody's listening to this, and they're like, huh. How do I know if I'm actually like walking around carrying a victim mindset myself?

• 7:39Speaker 04

  Well, really, my book is about, it's funny, I'm trying to get the subtitle changed for the reprint edition. Really, my book is about the science of self empowerment.

• 7:48Jonathan Fields?

  Right.

• 7:49Speaker 04

  And a lot of the interviews really do focus on the, um, the victim hut part. But really, what I wrote is a book about how to harness the most optimal mindset for your own success, no matter what you've been through in your life. Um, so yes, it is about overcoming a victim mindset, but I wouldn't, I don't want to get so hung up on diagnosing you.

• 8:08Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah.

• 8:08Speaker 04

  Figuring out like precisely whether or not you have the victim mindset. Look, you know, you have the, you know that you're stuck. If you feel stuck in life, you know you're stuck.

• 8:18Jonathan Fields?

  Right.

• 8:18Speaker 04

  You know? And, um, there's a whole science.

• 8:21Jonathan Fields?

  But I mean, just to push back a little, is that true?

• 8:24Speaker 04

  That you don't, you don't know?

• 8:26Jonathan Fields?

  That you really, you really do know? I mean, if, do you walk around, because? Do you walk around and is there a voice inside of everyone who's experiencing this? Like where they feel like the world is against him, where they're like, they really know it's not against him. It's like if I'm the the single unifying factor in all these different circumstances, me. Or are there folks who walk around and legitimately, they're like, I have like, I really do feel like the world is conspiring against me at every place in my life and I have no idea why. And like, it's not me.

• 8:55Speaker 04

  It's all too easy to slip into that way of thinking, which is, I think, is it's a very human thing. And I want to argue that we all fall prey to it every now and then. Even throughout the course of our day, we might, you know, find, we're looking for someone to curse. Curse the gods, curse the person in front of us, the car in front of us, whatever.

• 9:13Jonathan Fields?

  If you're in New York, you're gonna see everyone.

• 9:14Speaker 04

  Yeah, in New York, everyone's cursing each other. And it's, it's very, it's a very human thing. I wanted to, this book to not be about like, you're just, just about your ex-boyfriend or it's just about your mother. It's, it's about our potential to kind of hold ourselves back. Also through our own being a victim to ourselves. So you know that you're harnessing this mindset when you, A, you take your emotions way too seriously. And you can become a victim to your emotions. I talk about, you know, you identify with them. You feel a little anxiety and then you think, oh, I'm an anxious person and that's holding you back. You're becoming, you're, you're victimizing yourself. Cognitive distortions as well.

• 9:56Speaker 04

  There are a whole, a whole bunch of ways in which the way that we interpret situations.

• 10:01Jonathan Fields?

  So like, give me an example of cognitive distortion.

• 10:03Speaker 04

  One big one associated with the victim mindset is seeing malevolent intent in ambiguous stimuli. Which is a nerdy ass way, a nerdy ass way.

• 10:14Jonathan Fields?

  What is that actually?

• 10:14Speaker 04

  Like the phrase nerdy ass. It's a nerdy ass way of saying that you, you assume the worst about people.

• 10:22Jonathan Fields?

  Okay.

• 10:23Speaker 04

  Um, even in situations where you have no information, one way or the other. You know, and I think we do that a lot, you know, if like we smile at someone, they don't smile back at us. Let's say they just have a neutral facial expression. We, to us, that's an act of aggression.

• 10:38Speaker 04

  Comedians feel that a lot when they're on the stage, like even if there's just neutral facial expressions, they feel like that's personal.

• 10:45Jonathan Fields?

  Right. It's like the audience is against me.

• 10:47Speaker 04

  Yeah, it always gets, but it's very easy to kind of fall prey to and personalize things in our daily life constantly. If someone doesn't text us back when we want to, you know, we want to have some semblance of control. But we can't really have a control over other humans or, um, or, uh, you know, whether or not someone's interested in us, whether or not, you know, there are a lot of things that it, it's, it's very easy to fall into that victim mindset. Right. But it's, um, a lot harder, but more rewarding to not fall into that mindset. And to sort of even feel a sense of empowerment over it not affecting you so much at a personal level. And being able to handle rejection and being able to flex those muscles of resiliency where, you know,

• 11:32Speaker 04

  when it's a hundred and eight degree day and you're stuck in track of traffic, you don't curse the gods, but you think of what you're grateful for in your life. That's going well. I mean, there are so many things that are much more empowering than.

• 11:44Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah. And, and I do want to, I want to get into the empowerment side of this.

• 11:47Speaker 04

  Sure.

• 11:47Jonathan Fields?

  But I, I do want to linger on this a little bit more also because I'm trying to really understand the mindset. And, and also I want folks joining us to understand that, um, this is one of those, there but for God's grace go I, and I will be that person at some point. I'm, and I may be in and out of it on a regular basis. Um, rather than saying, I mean, the.

• 12:08Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 12:09Jonathan Fields?

  Is, is having a victim mindset a dysfunction?

• 12:13Speaker 04

  I think that it can lead to dysfunction in our lives and that's, um, that's where I see it. Often heading, not in of itself. In fact, someone asked me a really interesting question the other day. She said, "When is it good to have a victim mindset?" And I was like, "Okay, you know what? I like the way you think about this. It's not maybe always bad, but I think that on net, compared to what I call an empowerment mindset, it often leads to a sense of helplessness. It leads to a sense of a lack of agency. It could give us a false sense of harmony in the moment. It could make us feel like we're getting attention that we desperately crave,

• 12:56Speaker 04

  but it's not authentic connection. It's not long-lasting connection. People tend to... I really believe in the goodness of humans. I think that when someone signals victimhood, I think that most humans really care about that and they really want to jump in and help.

• 13:12Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah, that impulse, the compassionate impulse.

• 13:15Speaker 04

  Yes, but I also... Yes, and I also think that humans, at the end of the day, want to be seen for something deeper than just their victimhood. Does that make sense?

• 13:24Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah, no, it totally does. I mean, then like, what does the victim mindset want?

• 13:32Speaker 04

  Yeah, I think that attention is a big one.

• 13:36Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah.

• 13:36Speaker 04

  And I think, and help, help. You know, sometimes when people have been through terrible things, it's so natural to want to signal, you know, "I need resources. I need help." And in a lot of ways, that's a beautiful thing. The victim mindset, I make very clear, is a generalized mindset. So it's not about a specific event that you try to get help for.

• 13:59Jonathan Fields?

  Right.

• 13:59Speaker 04

  You know, it's just a total mentality that we could snap into where we suddenly see, we get paranoid, we kind of see the world as against us. It can happen if we are not reaching our goals how we want to. We can feel it in an instant, going on Instagram and you're scrolling and let's see, you see like, you know, Andrew Huberman or someone doing better than you. You're like, "Oh, goddamn Andrew Huberman." Do you know what I mean? And then you start to get a victim mindset. I don't know where that example came from, but...

• 14:29Jonathan Fields?

  Two podcasters sitting in talk.

• 14:30Speaker 04

  Two podcasts, right. But you know what I mean? Like, it's so much healthier to, to catch yourself mindfully going into that headspace and not spiral downward, but say, huh, okay, I, I can see where this is going. And instead, I'm going to focus my day on what makes me unique, what gives, what my alive, most unique center of being is, you know, what is, what is it within, what's my unique value proposition in the world? You know, what can I do, even in the smallest way, you know, just like call my mom and see how she's doing today, like to help me appreciate again that I'm still alive, the people I love are alive. There's so many things to get out of that. It doesn't lead down the best pathway. Does that make sense?

• 15:11Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah. I mean, so it's really interesting, right? Cause the way you're describing it is like, and tell me if this, if this makes sense to you.

• 15:17Speaker 04

  Sure.

• 15:18Jonathan Fields?

  That within the experience of, of being a victim or feeling like you are a victim, whether objectively you are or not, that there is a certain energy.

• 15:26Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 15:27Jonathan Fields?

  To that feeling and we can use that energy to either deepen into a place of stuckness or almost like activation energy to somehow act in a more constructive way.

• 15:38Speaker 04

  Yeah, I like that.

• 15:38Jonathan Fields?

  Bring us out of it. Does that make sense?

• 15:40Speaker 04

  Yeah, absolutely. And I think being in touch with these different energies through mind, a regular mindfulness practice and, and play in a, a non judgmentally playing around with the different energies. I love, love doing that. I just took a, took a 21 day course by my friend Corey Muscarer, who I.

• 15:57Jonathan Fields?

  Ah, I love Corey.

• 15:58Speaker 04

  I can't talk more positively about, and I just took a 21, I take all his classes.

• 16:02Jonathan Fields?

  He's like a walking hug with wisdom.

• 16:04Speaker 04

  I agree. He's one of the most wise individuals I've ever known. And I, and I just took this 21 day course on overcoming your compulsions and your addictions. And what I really like about his approach, and it's one that I would like to say is my approach too, is I believe in unconditional positive regard, which is Carl Rogers, you know, letting people experience things as valid, non judgmentally and kind of figure out for themselves what works and what doesn't work. But. Playing around with different energies is really beneficial. So I practiced playing around with like getting into like some things that I feel like I'm afraid I might be having compulsions. And kind of seeing how that feels and it feels much more restricted. You know, it feels much more like my options are limited.

• 16:48Speaker 04

  But then I started playing around in the space of embracing boredom and started to reframe boredom as actually the greatest source of possibility. You know, starting to love boredom. And when you're in the state of boredom, you're actually in a greater state of possibility than when you're addicted, in your addicted state.

• 17:04Jonathan Fields?

  That makes sense.

• 17:05Speaker 04

  And that was a huge, that was a huge insight for me.

• 17:08Jonathan Fields?

  But I must skip over that because that's what you just said is like a stark.

• 17:12Speaker 04

  Mind blowing, actually mind blowing.

• 17:14Jonathan Fields?

  Can you say that a little bit more?

• 17:15Speaker 04

  Yeah. When you're in this compulsive or an addictive state, all your options actually narrow to your system only wanting to reach a very, very narrow goal.

• 17:29Jonathan Fields?

  Okay.

• 17:29Speaker 04

  And you suddenly don't care about anything else in this world. And that's not the state of pure possibility, pure bliss, inner peace.

• 17:42Speaker 04

  Wanting something so desperately that you can't bear taking your attention away from it is not the path to inner peace.

• 17:51Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah. And, and also, like you said, it narrows the field so much that like possibility is off the table.

• 17:57Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 17:57Jonathan Fields?

  But there's one thing, one focus, one choice.

• 18:00Speaker 04

  That's the only thing that you must have.

• 18:01Jonathan Fields?

  Right. So, but what's so interesting there is that like, if you said to somebody, what's the opposite of that? I doubt many people would say boredom.

• 18:09Speaker 04

  Right, right. They might say aliveness or excitement.

• 18:12Jonathan Fields?

  Right, which is more than that, like the, the next step after boredom.

• 18:17Speaker 04

  It's a great point. You know,

• 18:21Speaker 04

  Corey has this example of his, of his girlfriend or his wife, his now his wife, walking past a bakery. And his wife is Brianna, her name is Brianna, was like, you know what, Corey, let's go in the bakery and not buy anything, but let's smell everything. And in a way that's boredom. That's like, oh, that sounds boring. But the more you can kind of live in that space of, mm, I wonder what that would taste. Sometimes that's more exciting ultimately than the feeling you have eating the big donut and all the consequences that come from that afterwards. Sometimes you can actually just. If you just reframe the situation, reframe what you would typically consider boredom

• 19:05Speaker 04

  into something else, because I'm reframing boredom. Boredom is getting more excited. Boredom itself is getting more exciting now that I'm reframing it.

• 19:14Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah, so reframing it as a space where there is no clear direction, there's only possibility.

• 19:22Speaker 04

  There's no compulsion.

• 19:23Jonathan Fields?

  Right.

• 19:24Speaker 04

  You know what? I could go in that direction, but I also could go in that direction. I'd be equally okay going in that direction. I'd be okay if that direction, I didn't go in that direction. I'd be okay with that. And that's a sense of, you know, like, okay, it's boring, you know? Okay, I'm not jumping into anything, you know? But there is a kind of peace that comes along with that that I think is underestimated.

• 19:44Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah, and a piece that we have all but annihilated from our lives was sort of like digital distraction. It's sort of like the minute we hear, like, there's even like a hint of boredom, it's like, what can I reach to sort of like, and we can reach for something all the time, like 24/7 now.

• 19:58Speaker 04

  24/7.

• 19:59Jonathan Fields?

  I mean, but it's a really interesting sort of hypothesis to say that by removing boredom from our experience, by basically saying every time you're online, every time you're in a stoplight, every time you're in the bathroom, like, there's something right there where you're immediately distracting yourself. We're not just, we're not just sort of, you know, treating the anxiety of the moment, but we're actually doing something which is taking out of us, taking us out of a state that would open the door to unlimited possibilities.

• 20:28Speaker 04

  Yes, and I love yes-ending things, so, and we've become so used to the feeling of anxiety that we treat the absence of anxiety as boredom, but it's not actually boredom. Like, if you actually think about it, it's peace, and we're so uncomfortable with peace. And, and if, I think really kind of changing, it's game-changing if you can shift your relationship to, to the feeling of peace and, and not conflate it with boredom, you know? But now, when I have a moment where there's not a lot of chaos going on around me, I take a deep breath and I'm like, oh, this is good. Like, no, I like this. This is what I actually want. And...

• 21:11Speaker 04

  I don't know. I think it's a pretty radical for a lot of people who maybe like me, you know, have a history of being workaholics, you know, it's, it's a, it's a kind of a, not kind of, it is a better place to live.

• 21:22Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah. And it's a place that is not really centered or valued.

• 21:27Speaker 04

  It's not valued.

• 21:28Jonathan Fields?

  It's like, it's like, if you're bored, do something.

• 21:30Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 21:31Jonathan Fields?

  You know, like, or how could you be bored with so much to do? Um, but, uh, you know, like, it really is that, I mean, how would you distinguish between something like boredom and meditation?

• 21:42Speaker 04

  Meditation for a lot of people is boring. And I think that they don't realize that's the point. They're like, oh, this is, this is boring. I can't do this. And you're actually, it's a kind of in a way, it's a practice to get comfortable with boredom. It's, it's like, you're literally building your boredom muscles, your, your tolerance of boredom muscles. So you can have greater flexibility to move in a direction you want. Ultimately, meditation gives you freedom, you know? Um, but it may not seem that way, you know, when you're just sitting there and like, you're thinking all these thoughts around your head, like, oh my God, I could do this, this, this, and this right now, as opposed to sitting down and just thinking about it.

• 22:20Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah. No, that makes a lot of sense.

• 22:24Jonathan Fields?

  And we'll be right back after a word from our sponsors. Good Life Project is sponsored by sequencing. So, you know, in midlife, we start noticing some of the things our parents carried and how they're showing up in their health and their lives and wondering what we're carrying too. Sequencing.com can help. According to sequencing, most popular DNA tests read about a tenth of one percent of your DNA. Sequencing.com reads all 3.2 billion positions and screens for genetic variants linked to over 15,000 diseases, conditions, and traits. That can mean catching inherited risks early and understanding how certain medications may affect you. So you can talk it through with your doctor. Just swab your cheek, mail it back, and their CLIA certified, cap accredited US lab handles

• 23:09Jonathan Fields?

  the rest. Clinical grade, not novelty grade, your DNA doesn't change, but what we know about it does. So they keep reanalyzing your genome against new research for as long as you're a member. And they never sell or Share your data ever. Right now, sequencing.com is offering our listeners up to 10% off your full genome test plus free shipping. Go to sequencing.com and use the promo code good life for 10% off. That's sequencing.com promo code good life. That's S E Q U E N C I N G dot com promo code good life.

• 23:44Speaker 01

  With no fees or minimums on checking accounts, it's no wonder the Capital One Bank guy is so passionate about banking with Capital One. If he were here, he wouldn't just tell you about no fees or minimums. He'd also talk about how most Capital One cafes are open seven days a week to assist with your banking needs. Yep, even on weekends. It's pretty much all he talks about in a good way. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See Capital One dot com slash bank. Capital One N A member FDIC.

• 24:15Speaker 03

  This is Nick and Jack from the best one yet, and we are excited to tell you about Walmart Business. Staying ahead of business trends means moving fast and adapting quickly. Walmart Business helps you simplify operations so you can focus on building the next big thing. Find exactly what your organization needs with their ever-expanding business assortment and everyday low prices. Keep your momentum going fast with reliable shipping and fulfillment. Eligible organizations can take advantage of tax-free shopping, both in-store and online, saving you more while getting you everything you need. It's Walmart built for your business. Sign up for a free Walmart Business account today at business.walmart.com.

• 24:53Jonathan Fields?

  I do want to sort of wrap the conversation around victim mindset and some of the empowerment exploration too, though. There are a couple of other things that you talk about in this context. One is the notion of self-esteem, which is this loaded word in conversation these days. Talk to me about this a bit.

• 25:08Speaker 04

  Yeah, I don't think it's always such a bad thing to have low self-esteem. That's one thing I talk about in the book is the benefits of low self-esteem.

• 25:16Jonathan Fields?

  So tell me.

• 25:16Speaker 04

  Self-esteem is just how you regard yourself, and it's different than narcissism.

• 25:25Speaker 04

  Well narcissism is, I guess, a way of regarding yourself, but in a way that is superior to others. High self-esteem is one where you just feel worthy. You know, I regard myself as worthy. I regard myself as competent. Worthy and competent are the two main aspects of self-esteem. And usually our self-esteem takes a hit when either we, a social situation happens where we don't feel as worthy in life, or we don't reach our goals and then our competence takes a hit. It's usually one of those two things and our self-esteem takes a hit. But as I talk about in that chapter, there are benefits of feeling bad about yourself. We don't

• 25:58Jonathan Fields?

  It's very counterintuitive.

• 25:59Speaker 04

  It's so counterintuitive, but I would say if people get the reverse, is it always good to feel good about yourself? I think most people like, actually, no. That's the same thing I'm saying, just in the other direction, but mathematically they equal the same thing. But do you want to protect yourself like a fort at all times, where when you legitimately aren't reaching your goals, you're legitimately hurting someone's feelings, you do all you can to restore that feeling of feeling good about yourself? Is that what you're solving for? Or are you solving for making an impact in the world, for finding the meaning out of the situation, for maybe correcting a wrong you made? You

• 26:41Speaker 04

  know, a lot of people with this incessant need to be seen in a positive light can't bear the thought of feeling bad about themselves. And that means more to them than making others people feel bad. Do you know what I mean?

• 26:55Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah. I mean, there is such a social context around all of this also. I remember years ago doing research on the Ellsberg Paradox, where you basically, you know, there's so many versions of it, you know it well. Like, for those who've never heard of it, it's effectively a scenario where you have to make a decision, and you assume that there are significant stakes, and you don't have enough information. And, you know, and I've seen studies that actually, FMRI studies, that show that the amygdala in the brain lights up, so the fear center has really come alive, when you sort of like, you have to make decisions that tilt you towards uncertainty. But I also saw a version of that, that effectively had the same experiment, and you would make a decision, but people were told in the beginning

• 27:37Jonathan Fields?

  No one will ever know what your decision is. You don't have to tell anyone. You don't have to share it. Like you write it down and put it away. There's, there will be zero social context, social stakes at all. It eliminated the bias away from uncertainty. You know, so, which is kind of like, it ties into what we're saying here because like, it wasn't that people were afraid of making a decision when they didn't have all the information, the stakes were high. It was, it seemed at least from the data that they were afraid of making a decision without good information, stakes were high, being wrong, and then being socially judged for having made the wrong call.

• 28:12Speaker 04

  That's the big one.

• 28:13Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah.

• 28:14Speaker 04

  The social judgment is the big one. The amygdala is an interesting brain region, which is the source of so much debate in the field about what exactly it is for. And, and people have concluded, there seems to be an emerging consensus that it has to do with just emotional significance. It, it, it, without it, we don't register an emotional significance of something. So like psychopaths really don't activate their amygdala that much. You know?

• 28:41Jonathan Fields?

  I guess that would make sense.

• 28:42Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah. Everything's like, oh, I killed that person. Okay. There's not, there's not much emotional significance. There probably should be. Not all psychopaths are zero covers, of course, but yeah. But yeah, so it's an interesting finding and, and for people who suffer with neuroticism,

• 29:02Speaker 04

  where their brains are constantly feeding them negative thoughts and anxiety, they would prefer

• 29:09Speaker 04

  a certain negative outcome over an uncertain outcome that could be good. They can't stand the uncertainty.

• 29:17Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah. Yeah. They just want to know either way. Even if it's bad, I'd rather have that and know.

• 29:23Speaker 04

  They prefer the devil you know.

• 29:25Jonathan Fields?

  Right. Huh. Yeah. I mean, it kind of makes sense. And I think probably anyone joining us now has been that person.

• 29:31Speaker 04

  Yeah, I would hope.

• 29:32Jonathan Fields?

  It's like nobody's immune.

• 29:34Speaker 04

  I hope we don't have too many psychopaths listening.

• 29:36Jonathan Fields?

  No. One of the other things you tease out in the context of this, and then we'll bounce over to the empowerment side, is this notion of meaning to please other people.

• 29:46Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 29:48Jonathan Fields?

  And of course, nobody's experienced that before.

• 29:51Speaker 04

  Oh, man, this is just such a tough one. For, for, for, for kind, empathetic humans, this is, this is an eternal, an eternal struggle. And one that there's no quick fix, and I don't think there should be a quick fix, because those who try to do the quick fix, you'll see an overcompensation effect where like, no more Mr. Nice Guy, you know, and then it's like, I'm sick of people pleasing and they they become an asshole, and that's not the way, that's not the answer. But you are people pleasing whenever you're totally putting your own needs aside for someone else in a way that causes you harm. You know, you're allowed to

• 30:34Speaker 04

  stand up for yourself, you're allowed to have healthy assertiveness. I call it healthy selfishness, actually, in the book. I think a lot of people with people pleasing tendencies could learn some of the tools of healthy, of healthy selfishness, not feel like they're always being selfish when they're just taking care of themselves.

• 30:52Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah, and there is, again, social context, right?

• 30:55Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 30:56Jonathan Fields?

  There's so much cultural stuff.

• 30:58Speaker 04

  So much.

• 30:59Jonathan Fields?

  Um, around the orientation of like, you're just doing that for you.

• 31:03Speaker 04

  Yeah, there are a lot of shoulds.

• 31:04Jonathan Fields?

  At a time like this also, it's like, seriously?

• 31:07Speaker 04

  There are a lot of shoulds.

• 31:10Speaker 04

  Yeah, like, you probably get tons of requests. That's, and do you ever feel bad, like, saying no to a request, even though you just know you don't have the time for it? I mean, you're allowed to, to just be this, be the, in charge of your own schedule.

• 31:26Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah, I mean, it's interesting, and this has been a journey for me, and I would imagine for you as well. You know, I I've been doing this, I've been public facing in some way, shape or form for nearly the two decades or so now, and

• 31:39Speaker 04

  Amazing.

• 31:40Jonathan Fields?

  And yeah, you do have a lot of folks who are like, they resonate with something that you might share, or a way that you see the world, or a piece of insight or information, and and there's a sense that maybe that person can help me, and And it's a really interesting phenomenon to have people who you don't know, reach out to you and say like, I'm in need. Um, and I feel like something you shared really made a difference for me. It landed for me. Is there any way that I could X, Y, Z, we could work together?

• 32:08Speaker 04

  What I get a lot is, hey, can we put 10 minutes on a Zoom call so I can pick your brain?

• 32:13Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah.

• 32:14Speaker 04

  And that's a trigger for me.

• 32:15Jonathan Fields?

  And it's a beautiful, because you would love to be able to say yes to all of that. You know, and it's a, like, it is a real privilege, a blessing to be in a position.

• 32:22Speaker 04

  Yeah, and it's also a trigger.

• 32:24Jonathan Fields?

  Right. So how do you handle that now? Like, are you, when you say it's a trigger, like, do you still have an emotional reaction?

• 32:32Speaker 04

  I have an, yeah, I feel a great conflict, a great inner conflict. Um, which maybe is okay if that, if the feeling never goes away, you know? Because then maybe you reach a state of indifference. And I'm not convinced I ever want to reach a state of indifference to human, my fellow humans. But, um, there is like this feeling of like, you know, uh, my mom, not to go to a real psychoanalytic level, but, you know, like her, oh, just call me honey whenever you want to. All I want is 10 minutes of your time. It's never only 10 minutes of my time, you know? It's like energetically, I have to experience that. And then, and then the conversation usually goes on. And then I, once I'm in it, I feel bad. I say like, hey, I really have to go now.

• 33:16Speaker 04

  I really have to go now. I keep saying it over and over again. I have to go now. And so that was a little bit of a trauma for me, you know? Is kind of feeling trapped, right, in a situation where I can't go. I can't leave a conversation. And so it's, it's hard, you know, with complete strangers. I don't, I don't have any, I mean, where's the trust there, you know? Like, I don't know who you are at all, you know? Um, so, I mean, I, I, I try to help as much as I can through email. I'm like, hey, ask me your question through email. Like, do you have to talk to me?

• 33:46Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah, and I think it's also, I found it really helpful, maybe anyone joining us, to be fairly public about your boundaries. You know, I remember literally, you know, like I write a Substack and I wrote a piece and it generated a lot of comments. And in a subsequent piece, somebody wrote in the comments, hey, you know, like if you really care so much, why didn't you answer my comment in that last piece? And I was like, you know, like an arrow through my heart. I was like, oh, am I a terrible person? Like, wow, like I didn't answer that person. Am I? But then also, like, I'm very clear at this point that, you know, I have a general policy. So I don't make sort of like, I have, my general policy is, if I'm offering something

• 34:28Jonathan Fields?

  on a platform and that platform also happens to have functionality for direct messaging to me, just because that functionality exists, doesn't mean that I need to make that another door into my psyche. And I make that just an across the board policy. And I actually, I responded in the comment, I says, listen, I completely understand your feelings. Thank you so much for sharing it. I really honor that and appreciate it. Just, I want you to understand more clearly just how I approach this, you know? Because honoring my own personal like commitments and responsibilities and also my commitment to making and creation and offering is so strong and it takes all of my time. I've just created a very clear, universal boundary that I don't respond to DMs and to messages.

• 35:10Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 35:11Jonathan Fields?

  And it's not, it's not even you. It's not, I don't even see it. So I hope you understand that and maybe even invite you to, you know, explore like, like, do you have a similar surely policy or boundary? This person was actually appreciative. They're like, I just, thank you. Like, I understand, I understand and I agree. And now I understand it wasn't personal also.

• 35:29Speaker 04

  That's what you're doing is depersonalizing that for people. You know, that's beautiful. I, I think that, was it Oliver Berkman who said that? Yeah, creating, that's the best way to do it is create a general rule and make it very clear to people that's your general rule. And so everyone knows what's up. That's, that's the best you can do. But, you know, some people really do just take the path of just saying as their general rule, they're like, look, I'm an asshole, you know? And there's actually a certain freedom in that. You know, just, just saying, you know what? I'm not what you all want me to be in this world. And take it or leave it. And there's a certain attraction to that way of being as well that I, you know, I don't want to rule that out. You're being really nice and polite, but I'm like, you know, maybe I'll try experiment

• 36:14Speaker 04

  a year, the year of being an asshole and write a book about it, that experience. I feel like that's something my friend, you know, A.J. Jacobs?

• 36:20Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah.

• 36:21Speaker 04

  Yeah, I feel like that's something he would do.

• 36:22Jonathan Fields?

  I could tell.

• 36:23Speaker 04

  The year of being an asshole, but I think it could be kind of fun. There's a certain kind of freedom there.

• 36:27Jonathan Fields?

  I mean, it is interesting, just getting crystal clear and seeing how people respond. But it's also a really interesting task, right? Because what you're effectively saying to people is, is the value that I'm able to offer you, because I'm really focusing on doing the work and then sharing like what I do, is that enough alone to, to give you something that's worthy, even if you know that like, there's no other access?

• 36:48Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 36:49Jonathan Fields?

  Beyond that. So it's an interesting experiment to run. I think a lot of people would probably want to run something like that. They might not call it my year of being an asshole, but effectively, it's like the same thing.

• 36:57Speaker 04

  But that'd make a good TED Talk, wouldn't it?

• 36:59Jonathan Fields?

  It probably would, actually.

• 37:02Speaker 03

  And we'll be right back after a word from our sponsors.

• 37:06Jonathan Fields?

  Good Life Project is sponsored by TinCan. So if you grew up in the seventies or eighties, you probably still remember your best friend's phone number and stretching the kitchen phone cord around the corner for privacy. Our executive producer, Lindsay, wanted that same freedom for her kids, eight and 10. So in January, she got them a TinCan. Now, friends call the house to chat, make plans and check in without borrowing her phone. They even keep a handwritten phone book next to it. I kind of love that. TinCan is the new school way for kids to talk with their friends. It's a secure landline that lets them call all their favorite people, but with parental controls to keep them protected. No screens, no algorithms, no texting, just a phone being a phone. Kids can only call or be called by people on your approved list.

• 37:51Jonathan Fields?

  Calls to other TinCans and 911 are always free. And there's even an answering machine for messages that are, I'm told, gloriously ridiculous. Go to tincan.com/goodlife to get $10 off your first order, exclusive for our listeners. That's tincan.com/goodlife for $10 off. And when you use our link, you're supporting our show. Tincan.com/goodlife.

• 38:16Jonathan Fields?

  This message is brought to you by Apple Card. Ah, fall, that cozy season where we swap the swimwear for sweaters and sunnies for scarves. But before the Halloween decorations are put away or Thanksgiving table has been set, there's already holly jolly music playing in the grocery store, reminding you that the year is coming to a close. Time to kick end of year into high gear. When you use Apple Card with Apple Pay, you earn 2% daily cash back on all purchases, including food, decorations, gifts, and more. Get a head start on your end of year purchases. Apply for your Apple Card in the Wallet app on your iPhone today and start using it right away with Apple Pay. Subject to credit approval, Apple Card is issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA Salt Lake

• 39:01Jonathan Fields?

  City Branch. Terms and more at applecard.com.

• 39:08Speaker 01

  With no fees or minimums on checking accounts, it's no wonder the Capital One Bank guy is so passionate about banking with Capital One. If he were here, he wouldn't just tell you about no fees or minimums. He'd also talk about how most Capital One cafes are open seven days a week to assist with your banking needs. Yep, even on weekends, it's pretty much all he talks about, in a good way. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See capitalone.com/bank. Capital One, N A, Member FDIC.

• 39:43Jonathan Fields?

  Let's kind of turn the page a little bit to the empowerment side. Yeah. You talked about the victim mindset and some of the contributors that go into this. Yeah. The things that raise our head. And you said early on, you're like, this is really about empowerment. So there's data within the context of this experience, within that experience of the victim mindset, that we can turn around and use as that activation energy. Um, you know, so some of the things that you talk about, it's just like, you describe this finding the light within. Um, it's kind of like the opening move here. So take me into this.

• 40:12Speaker 04

  Um, well, there are parts of us that aren't broken. And I think that if we focus so much on our victimhood, we can not get in touch with those parts of ourselves. You know, in a lot of ways, where you put your attention is where you put your life, right? Uh, and a lot of people really identify so strongly, like, oh, my trauma, my trauma when I was two. And that's their overarching thing for how they live and experiences. Whenever they're interpreting everything through that lens, if they're thinking, oh, do I want to go on this trip to, no, I can't fly, my trauma when I was two. Um, and so, okay, well, do you have any parts of you, any character strengths that are maybe, that are craving exploration?

• 40:54Speaker 04

  Um, are there any parts of you that, that values creativity, values meaning? Um, you know, are you letting those parts of you suffer, you know, by only focusing on this small part of you? It's not all of you, you know? And so that's what I mean by that, finding the light within. And, um, there's some cool examples. The Atmin Brothers and their friend, uh, Gonzalez, um, go around to, um, schools where a lot of these kids, underserved communities are really ridden off. And just the kids themselves probably feel in a lot of ways broken. Um, and he teaches them yoga, they teach them yoga and mindfulness techniques. And, um, they start to feel good about themselves.

• 41:39Speaker 04

  They start to like, realize that they have resiliency, they have coping skills, they have a future, you know? It's, uh, in some ways, my book is kind of a response to a cultural kind of sense of helplessness I see in a lot of even underserved communities. Um, uh, you know, minorities, you know, I, you know, and I try to make clear, I believe in the higher potential of all people, uh, regardless of your skin color or where you came from, you know? And I think the more we can kind of give people hope, um, the better.

• 42:13Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah, I mean, the, um, The notion of of helplessness is really interesting also. I think, you know, we're having this conversation at a moment in culture in the world where

• 42:24Speaker 04

  It's a moment. We're going through a moment, man.

• 42:26Jonathan Fields?

  We are. And I think a lot of people are looking out and they're like the the feeling of helplessness has probably never been higher for so many people. They're looking at and they're like, this is so big. This is so heavy. This is so complex. What can I do? Like, I'm literally, there's nothing that I can do to make a difference to like, and there's this feeling of helplessness.

• 42:47Jonathan Fields?

  And

• 42:48Speaker 04

  You don't always have to do something either.

• 42:50Jonathan Fields?

  So tell, yeah, tease it out.

• 42:52Speaker 04

  Your value in this world is not always tied up one to one with what you're doing in the world to help others. I mean, I think we need to get rid of that mindset. I saw once, I forget what it was, but someone said the real key to life is find ways to have joy and find ways to bring joy to others. And I'm like down. I actually like that. I don't, I mean, you know, you can watch one of these bro podcasts and feel like your life is crap because you haven't gotten up at five in the morning and that you didn't like do that, you know, 50,000 burpees by nine. Yeah, sure, you can feel like crap about yourself, but I'm not convinced they haven't figured it out, even as though they think they haven't figured it out. I'm not convinced that's the key to life. You know, I think the key to life is experiencing it

• 43:34Speaker 04

  life to be grateful for the consciousness that we've been given, to be grateful for others who are on this planet with us and who are, you know, who are, we're all in this together, you know? And that feeling of helplessness sometimes comes from a false sense that you can only feel hopeful to the extent to which you're tackling your goals. But not everything in life is goal oriented and needing to be goal oriented in order. That's a very masculine, you know, it really is.

• 44:06Jonathan Fields?

  So tell me the other, the other

• 44:08Speaker 04

  The alternative to a goal driven life?

• 44:09Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah, or to just like the alternative approach to Helplessness, like if it's not about what do I do to remove this feeling of helplessness from me, like, how do I reframe that?

• 44:19Speaker 04

  What experiences do I want to create for myself today? And for those around me? What kind of feeling do I want to? How do I want to show up? And what kind of energy? If I'm going down the streets to the coffee shop? What frame of mind do I want to be in when I enter this coffee shop? Do I want to be on the lookout or have an openness for connection? For, for bringing some sort of joy to someone? I mean, I recently took up magic, a mentalism, and

• 44:54Jonathan Fields?

  I saw that on your website.

• 44:55Speaker 04

  Nice, nice. It's a thing. It's a real thing. It's like, I'm so into it. And the reason why I'm into it, and I almost feel like it's like, the thing I'm most excited about these days is because no matter how crappy my day is, or whatever is going on, wherever I go, I have something in my pocket that can bring someone joy. You know? You know, and whatever it is, whatever you have in your pocket to bring others joy or bring yourself joy amidst the crap of life? I mean, I think that's what it's all about. So I really do kind of want to push back against this, this bro goal, goal-oriented, crushing it culture that makes people feel as though their value is only tied up to how many things they've checked off their to-do list?

• 45:40Speaker 04

  And if that makes it a little, me a little controversial for saying that, so be it. I'll work on my people pleasing skills, but I really, that's where I feel aligned these days.

• 45:48Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah, I mean, that lands well with me also. Like, I love, like, I have big things on my list. You know, there are big aspirations that I want. And at the same time, you know, I love sitting on my front porch when I can catch the sunrise and just sort of like see that first glimmer of light and hear like the birds starting to come alive in the background.

• 46:07Speaker 04

  And then you realize, this is life.

• 46:09Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah.

• 46:10Speaker 04

  This is life.

• 46:11Jonathan Fields?

  Right.

• 46:11Speaker 04

  Life doesn't exist in the trying to reach my goals.

• 46:15Jonathan Fields?

  Right. It's like all the doing basically lands me back in that seat, being able to do the exact same thing. It's like, huh.

• 46:22Speaker 04

  Like, where is life, really, really, you know?

• 46:25Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah, it's not out there. It's like, not the thing that happens after the big thing. You know, it's every moment along the way, as cliche as that is. I guess there's a reason that people keep repeating it through generations.

• 46:37Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 46:37Jonathan Fields?

  You brought up something also, and this is in the book as well. It's this notion of not just having one self.

• 46:44Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 46:44Jonathan Fields?

  Like, there, I think the phrasing was a symphony of selves.

• 46:48Speaker 04

  Yeah, I'm glad you brought that up. Good you brought that up.

• 46:52Speaker 04

  What is, Walt Whitman has a phrase, like, if I contain multitudes, do I contain multitudes? Yeah, I contain multitudes. Like, what are you gonna do about it? It is, it is what it is. And this idea or notion that we have a real self, I really wanna challenge that. Some spiritual, you know, self-help space are like, get in touch with your real self. I mean, I think it's all real, but I think we have certain aspects of ourself that feel more centered, grounded, alive. There's a fertile soil there for growth. And I think we have other sides of ourself that feel like it's entering like a black pit, maybe of despair, but also addictions, I think, is like entering a black, it's a black pit of greed, in a way.

• 47:37Speaker 04

  You constantly need that thing, that thing, that thing. It's a greedy feeling, you know? But, you know, like I said, we talked about sort of playing with the different energies of your different selves, and finding the selves, they're like, oh, I like being there. And working, committing to living a life where you're there as as often as possible, I think is a life well-lived.

• 47:57Jonathan Fields?

  Where do you land then in the kind that, is there like, I feel like the hot thing in therapy for probably the last five, 10 years or so has been IFS, Internal Family Systems, parts work.

• 48:07Speaker 04

  Yeah, a lot of people really like it.

• 48:08Jonathan Fields?

  I've talked to a number of people who are sort of like in that space.

• 48:10Speaker 04

  A lot of people really like it.

• 48:11Jonathan Fields?

  What do you think's going on there?

• 48:12Speaker 04

  And interestingly enough, I'm currently seeing a therapist who specializes in IFS, yeah. Yeah.

• 48:18Jonathan Fields?

  So what's your take? I mean, is, is, does that tie into what we're talking about here? Or is that something entirely different?

• 48:22Speaker 04

  I think it's relevant. I do. I do think it's relevant. And Dick Schwartz, the originator of IFS, has been in my podcast and did a session with me about my fear of women.

• 48:34Speaker 04

  About this particular thing that happened to me in summer camp where this woman, aged 12, this, this girl rejected me and made me really shy talking to women. Anyway, he did this, like, he got in touch with that part. I think there's a lot of wisdom there. I think there, it's also important to recognize that this, this IFS isn't that scientifically validated. It's not that well accepted amongst, like, the, you know, serious scientists. Because, just because it hasn't been tested rigorously and scientifically, but there's gotta be something there. When you look at the way that it resonates with people who go through it, even, even me. You know, when, when, when Dick Schwartz did it with me on my show, I felt like I wanted to cry.

• 49:19Speaker 04

  I felt like I released, I wanted to release that self, once and for all. What I also like about it is it, it is so in line with a lot of other traditions. So, this, this notion of facing your beautiful monsters, which is a very Buddhist kind of concept. Rinpoche, you know, has, has, has, has wrote a book about that. Getting into, and doing the handshake practice with your beautiful, I see it associated with that. If you can really make deep contact and really try to understand and wrap your head around what a particular self wants. What is it really asking for? What is it really craving? And not being scared of it.

• 50:01Speaker 04

  And not being scared of that self and even treating it with tenderness. There is a real softening of it and a wholeness feeling that you can have. So, yeah, I like it.

• 50:13Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah, I mean, it's interesting, right? Because, you know, the, the fundamental, if I understand it properly, like, the fundamental idea with parts work is that, you know, like, we are, we are made up of a whole bunch of different parts. And those parts have, have different jobs. And often, they feel like those jobs have been set in motion when we were little kids. You know, when something happened to us, like, ooh, I need to go protect you. And that forms a pattern that just kind of stays with you for life.

• 50:37Speaker 04

  It was like the fireman.

• 50:38Jonathan Fields?

  Right, yeah, exactly, you know, um, and so we have all these little parts running around us with roles that have been assigned, like oftentimes like decades before, and they're still doing them, even though our life is very different, our circumstances are different, that we are different, yet they're still in there fighting the fight. But my curiosity, which kind of wraps it around this conversation too, is like, wh- what is, what is the part that is aware of all, all of those other parts?

• 51:02Speaker 04

  I have this conversation with Corey all the time, all the time. Um, I want to think this through in a, in a, in a different way. You know, Dick is very big in saying we all have multiple personalities and that's a big part of all this. But I actually think that that's not true for everyone. There are people who've done the work in such a way that I think they're really well-integrated, and I don't think they have all these different parts that are constantly pulling them in different directions. I actually see a great, like, consistency of how, of who they are, and a very, it's very clear, you know, what that, uh, sort of, whatever that unitary self is that, that is, uh, the, we'll call it another part. Dick would say, "That's just another part, the integrator."

• 51:47Speaker 04

  Okay, fine, hey, I know, I know that's what he would say.

• 51:49Jonathan Fields?

  Right.

• 51:50Speaker 04

  And that's fine, okay, if that's what we want to say, it's just another part that's the integrator. But I see some people who are more in touch with that, that, that meta, the meta part, than they are with the lower order parts. Um, and I want to be like those people, so I want to study those people. And, um, and I think what's really interesting about them is that, uh, they hear the other parts. They, they, they hear, they're like, "I see you, I hear you, but I have no desire to engage further with it." And, uh, just talking to people who, I've, I've sought out people who I, I think are great, you, they have a, they have a real clear unified self, a real sense of mission, purpose. They're like, "I'm not gonna mess this up." I think Corey Bryant was like that, uh, maybe later in his life, you know?

• 52:32Speaker 04

  Um, he's, you know, he's like, "I'm just going to do every, I'm gonna get, you know, put away all the crap, you know, you know, maybe the bad sides of me, and just go all in on what the, the part, that the part that I really want to engage in the most frequently." Um, and we think of lots of other examples, that name just came up, came up to me because I knew him personally in middle school and high school.

• 52:54Jonathan Fields?

  I mean, it's interesting, right, because they're, um... This word equanimity has really been in and out of my life a lot lately.

• 53:00Speaker 04

  Yeah, I love this word. I love it.

• 53:03Jonathan Fields?

  And I think a lot of times, if you're familiar with the word, like, we tend to define it as finding a way to find center and to be a piece, no matter what's happening around you, without the need to grasp and control it. But I think part of what's going on here also is, and again, that's probably just my overlay here. I can't really define it in a detailed way. For part, I think the conversation is here, like, that person who's really able to touch equanimity on a consistent basis, maybe it's not just about the external circumstance. It's about like, okay, so there are these other pieces of me. There are these parts of me. There are these, and they feel like they have jobs to do also. And I see you. And cool. Like, good on you. And I'm still gonna just sit here and breathe and be okay. Like, it's the internal and the external that equanimity is about, not just

• 53:49Jonathan Fields?

  being okay with the circumstances of the world around you. How's that land?

• 53:53Speaker 04

  Well, it's gotta be the internal and the external. No, I think that's gotta be right. Yeah.

• 53:58Jonathan Fields?

  Earlier in our conversation, and this is something that you come to in the empowerment conversation too, is this notion of, I don't know if it's being of service, of gratitude, like, finding things that you're actually like, puts you in a state of gratitude and generosity.

• 54:14Jonathan Fields?

  When you're experiencing a victim mindset, how does this help?

• 54:20Speaker 04

  Grateful, I like to refer to gratefulness rather than gratitude. Gratitude is something that you can, that you have to wait for something to happen to you and then be like, oh, I'm so great. I have so much gratitude for this. But gratefulness is an orientation towards life. No matter what happens to you, you can kind of see, well, how does this, what's the upside here? What can I learn from this situation? What can I still be grateful for even amongst, amongst, I just made up a word, amidst this.

• 54:51Jonathan Fields?

  Like amongst that.

• 54:52Speaker 04

  Amongst. I always invent words that are silly. There's all this chaos. My friend Kristi Nelson wrote a wonderful book called Wake Up Grateful. Uh, which is about her journey uh with stage four cancer and how she was committed to wake still waking up grateful every day regardless of the uncertainty and the fear she had about her life and what she was still gonna be grateful for. So I I think that harnessing that practice takes you away from a victim mindset. You're not, if you catch your, if you get yourself caught up in, in, in this, this mindset, you know, you're going down a path that doesn't lead to hope, doesn't lead to connection with others. Um, you know,

• 55:36Speaker 04

  take a pause, um, and enter a different way, a different gratefulness mindset. And you can enter gratefulness mindset like that. Um, it could be as simple as you catch yourself going down the mental pathway. Oh, I have to do this today. I have to do that today. I have to do that today. God, let's curse my assistant for adding that to my schedule. And then you go, you know what? No, no, no. Let me, let me think. I get to do that. I get to do that. I get to do that. Oh, my gosh. I get to help at seven PM tonight. I get to have that on my calendar and help that person. And, and in an instant, you've shifted into a different mindset. So I think, I think it's possible. And I mean, I wouldn't have thought so if I didn't write this book. Yeah.

• 56:20Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah. And I, I love how simple things like that are because like a lot of times you're like, okay, so what's the technique, the process, the strategy? Like, give me the whole method.

• 56:28Speaker 04

  Self-talk.

• 56:29Jonathan Fields?

  Right. And it's like literally change a word.

• 56:31Speaker 04

  Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

• 56:32Jonathan Fields?

  It's like, oh, wait. But then you hear something like that. You're like, eh, it can't be that easy.

• 56:37Speaker 04

  Try it. You'll see it is that easy.

• 56:39Jonathan Fields?

  Right. Cause these, the people are just like, if it's that simple, it's, it couldn't possibly make a difference. And I love the fact that you're saying here, saying, naturally it does.

• 56:47Speaker 04

  It totally does. Tension.

• 56:48Jonathan Fields?

  Nah. Um, somebody's finding themselves now in this victim mindset. Um, is there sort of like a?

• 57:01Jonathan Fields?

  An easy first step in, like you're sitting here, you're listening, you're like, oh wait, this is me. Yeah, like everything I'm hearing right now, this is actually making it a way that I kind of wish it wasn't.

• 57:12Speaker 04

  Good. I would say awesome.

• 57:14Jonathan Fields?

  Right. And then what would you say? And then?

• 57:17Speaker 04

  Yeah, I mean, it's great that you have that self-awareness and now try to be more mindful of when, like, catch yourself when you start to enter this mindset. You know, we've defined it pretty well in this episode and think to yourself, um, okay, um, I'm way personalizing this situation. Am I, or even ask yourself, am I overly personalizing this thing that happened to me? Is this really, um, am I overgeneralizing this? I know that, you know, this, this, I got turned down by something, you know, or like a job opportunity or a person, but am I overgeneralizing to think that, like, everyone's gonna turn me down? Yeah, I probably

• 57:57Speaker 04

  am. You know, like, just, like, challenge yourself and you'll realize that that gives you a greater sense of agency.

• 58:05Jonathan Fields?

  Hmm, yeah.

• 58:07Speaker 04

  Challenge yourself to be better.

• 58:10Jonathan Fields?

  In a gentle way.

• 58:11Speaker 04

  What'd you say?

• 58:11Jonathan Fields?

  In a gentle way.

• 58:12Speaker 04

  Not a...

• 58:13Jonathan Fields?

  In a non-aggressive...

• 58:14Speaker 04

  Goggins.

• 58:14Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah, and even that, like, what we were just talking about, literally, like, can you change a word in the sentence that, like, takes you from a place of, like, obligation or lament to a get, you know? Um, like, is there a grateful, like, something where you can just look around or look inside and be like, yeah, like, I appreciate that. Um, even though, like, I'm not in love with what just happened in this moment, there's something, and maybe you can even, like, tell a different story about it in the moment. It's like, huh.

• 58:44Speaker 04

  And also, I find, in a cheeky way, I like to lower my expectations about life.

• 58:49Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah.

• 58:49Speaker 04

  I have a section of my chapter, of chapter one, the intro says, "Warning, you might have a case of life."

• 58:55Jonathan Fields?

  Right.

• 58:55Speaker 04

  Look, you know, if you think that you're supposed to be happy all the time, or that, like, if you're feeling anxiety, that that's an indication you have to immediately go to a therapist and get medicine, as opposed to like, okay, I'm feeling a human emotion now, okay, I'm feeling another human emotion now. In 10 minutes, I'm gonna feel a completely different human emotion. Or, traffic sucks, or this, it'll get better, you know? And there's a very Buddhist thing there, obviously, about impermanence and everything changes. But also, there's a point here about not identifying so much with these things, um, now and forever.

• 59:28Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah, I love that. Feels like a good place for us to come full circle as well. So I've asked you this question in the past, but I'll ask it again. It's years later in this container of Good Life Project. If I offer up the phrase "to live a good life," what comes out?

• 59:40Speaker 04

  I wonder how I answered it before, but now I would probably say, I want to repeat what I said earlier. I think living a good life is finding ways to experience joy and to share that joy with others.

• 59:59Jonathan Fields?

  Thank you.

• 59:59Speaker 04

  Yeah, I think it maybe has changed a little bit.

• 1:00:02Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah, I'm gonna look back and check it myself.

• 1:00:04Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:00:04Jonathan Fields?

  Awesome. Thanks, man.

• 1:00:05Speaker 04

  Thank you.

• 1:00:06Jonathan Fields?

  We're all set. Woo hoo.

• 1:00:09Jonathan Fields?

  Hey, if you loved this episode, a safe bet you'll also love the conversation we had with Brene Brown about embracing vulnerability to fuel creative growth. You can find a link to that episode in the show notes. This episode of Good Life Project was produced by executive producers Lindsay Fox and me, Jonathan Fields. Editing help by Alejandro Ramirez and Troy Young. Christopher Carter crafted our theme music. And of course, if you haven't already done so, please go ahead and follow Good Life Project in your favorite listening app or on YouTube too. If you found this conversation interesting or valuable and inspiring, chances are you did, because you're still listening here, do me a personal favor, a seven second favor, share it with just one person. And if you want to share it with more, that's awesome too, but just

• 1:00:52Jonathan Fields?

  one person even, then invite them to talk with you about what you've both discovered to reconnect and explore ideas that really matter, because that's how we all come alive together. Until next time, I'm Jonathan Fields, signing off for Good Life Project.

• 1:01:16Speaker 01

  With no fees or minimums on checking accounts, it's no wonder the Capital One Bank guy is so passionate about banking with Capital One. If he were here, he wouldn't just tell you about no fees or minimums. He'd also talk about how most Capital One cafes are open seven days a week to assist with your banking needs. Yep, even on weekends. It's pretty much all he talks about, in a good way. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See CapitalOne.com/Bank. Capital One, N A, Member FDIC.

• 1:01:47Speaker 05

  I'm Jake Stauk, co-founder and CEO of Serval. We built Serval to automate the IT work that slows companies down. Onboarding, password resets, access to applications, my laptop stopped working. While employees wait for help, their real work is put on hold. IT desperately wants to automate this work, and that's why they need Serval. You just tell Serval what you want to automate in plain English, and it's built. No drag-and-drop workflows, no expensive consultants. Employees get unblocked, and IT teams go from drowning in tickets to building what actually matters. With Serval, IT becomes the AI engine powering the entire company. This is a new way to run IT.

• 1:02:29Speaker 05

  We guarantee you'll automate 50% of all tickets, and we'll prove it to you in a free four-week pilot. Go to serval.com/tickets. That's S-E-R-V-A-L dot com slash tickets.

• 1:02:43Speaker 06

  Hi, this is Paige from Giggly Squad, and this episode is brought to you by Mattress Firm. You guys know I'm obsessed with my mattress and my adjustable base. My bed is my office, my movie theater, my everything. And if you're waking up sore, aches, and pains can make sleeping tough. Mattress Firm's sleep experts can find you the right mattress for improved support. Plus, Mattress Firm carries a curated premium selection of mattresses, so you can get the upgrade you want. For the great sleep you deserve, visit Mattress Firm during the Black Friday Sale. They make sleep easy.

• 1:03:11Speaker 01

  With no fees or minimums on checking accounts, it's no wonder the Capital One Bank guy is so passionate about banking with Capital One. If he were here, he wouldn't just tell you about no fees or minimums. He'd also talk about how most Capital One cafes are open seven days a week to assist with your banking needs. Yep, even on weekends, it's pretty much all he talks about, in a good way. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See CapitalOne.com/Bank. Capital One, N.A., Member FDIC.