How To Build Self-Discipline (5 Step Routine) | Ryan Holiday

Most people think discipline is about willpower. Ryan Holiday knows better — it's about habit. After writing multiple bestselling books on Stoicism and spending decades studying history's highest performers, the author of The Obstacle Is The Way and Ego Is The Enemy has cracked the code on why the world's hardest workers aren't just talented or lucky. They've built systems that make discipline inevitable. In this raw conversation, Ryan breaks down the exact frameworks used by Marcus Aurelius, Seneca, and Epictetus to stay calm under fire, make sharper decisions under pressure, and most importantly — get things done. We dive into why discipline isn't something you are but something you do, how the Stoics battled procrastination (Seneca said all fools are always getting ready to start), and why negative visualization beats positive manifestation every time. Ryan reveals his actual research process (analog note cards, not AI shortcuts), why he reads the same books over and over, and how to inoculate yourself against audience capture when everyone's telling you what to create. But this isn't theory — it's applied philosophy. We get into why waking up early is useless if you stay up till 2 AM, how to make hard things black and white so you can't rationalize exceptions, and why your calendar should have large blocks of white space, not meetings. Ryan walks through his panic rules from coaching the LA Rams, why ego destroys more empires than external obstacles, and how he went from running publicity stunts and media manipulation campaigns to building one of the most disciplined creative practices in the world. If you've ever felt like discipline is this vague thing you either have or don't, or if you're tired of procrastinating on the life you know you should be building, this episode will change how you think about work, focus, and what it actually takes to win. Protect what you own. Next makes it fast, simple, and painless. Check it out: https://nextinsurance.com/codie ___________ 00:00:00 Introduction 00:01:06 Panic Rules: What To Do When Everything Falls Apart 00:03:05 Discipline Now, Freedom Later: The Labor Will Pass 00:07:37 The Simplest Daily Habit to Build Discipline 00:11:59 Large Uninterrupted Blocks of Time: The Secret to Success 00:16:09 Procrastination is Arrogant: It Assumes You Have Forever 00:22:39 Enjoying the Journey: Why the Work Matters More Than the Reward 00:28:22 Negative Visualization: Why the Stoics Planned for the Worst 00:33:10 The Note Card System: How Ryan Remembers Everything 00:34:52 You Must Love Learning If You Would Possess It 00:43:14 Know Thyself: The Oracle of Delphi's Most Important Command 00:46:05 Ego is the Enemy: How It Destroys Success 00:53:16 The Power to Have No Opinion 01:00:06 Haters, Criticism, and the Statistical Certainty of Dislike 01:18:04 Audience Capture: When Your Audience Has You 01:09:04 From Marketing Manipulator to Stoic Philosopher 01:15:17 The Corner Office Phenomenon: Looking Down the Hall 01:17:01 Are Humans Contagious? Culture, Values, and Becoming Who You Spend Time With 01:06:44 Should We All Get a Donkey? Life Lessons from the Ranch 01:21:15 Final Reflections: The Path That's Yours Alone ___________ MORE FROM BIGDEAL 🎥 YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@podcastbigdeal 📸 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/bigdeal.podcast 📽️ TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@big.deal.pod MORE FROM CODIE SANCHEZ 🎥 YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@codiesanchezct 📸 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/codiesanchez 📽️ TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@realcodiesanchez OTHER THINGS WE DO 🌐 Our community: https://contrarianthinking.typeform.com/to/WBztXXID 📰 Free newsletter: https://contrarianthinking.biz/3XWLlZp 📚 Biz buying course: https://contrarianthinking.biz/3NhjGgN 🏠 Resibrands: https://resibrands.com/ 💰 CT Capital: https://contrarianthinking.biz/4eRyGOk 🏦 Main St Hold Co: https://contrarianthinking.biz/3YfGa8u Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:29Codie Sanchez?

  What is the simplest, smallest action that you could apply to have discipline in your life?

• 0:35Speaker 02

  The problem is, we tend to think of these ideas as like things you are or aren't. Aristotle specifically says, no, no, no, that's totally wrong. So if you want to be more courageous, you got to do stuff on a consistent basis that scares you. That's how you have courage. That's what discipline is. It's a habit or a practice that builds, not a thing that you are or aren't.

• 0:54Codie Sanchez?

  Today, bestselling author Ryan Holiday breaks down the exact frameworks he uses to stay calm when everything's on fire, make sharper decisions under pressure, and most importantly, for you to get things done. So if you want to build a mind that doesn't crack when the stakes get high, this conversation is for you. How do you battle procrastination? And what have you learned through Stoicism on how the greats do this too?

• 1:15Speaker 02

  Seneca says, this is the one thing all fools have in common, is that they're always getting ready to start. You know, I'll do it in the morning is probably the most insidious lie there is, but... It also presumes that there is a later.

• 1:27Codie Sanchez?

  Can Stoicism help with anxiety?

• 1:29Speaker 02

  Of course. We know the Stoics experience anxiety. Marx-Brillis talks about it in Meditations. He says...

• 1:41Codie Sanchez?

  You gave some advice that I thought was really prolific on what to do when you are panicking and you have no idea what to do next. So I wanted to ask you, you know, what do you do when you're in a moment of crisis? You're panicking, but you've got to break free.

• 1:55Speaker 02

  So actually, this came from a talk I gave to the Los Angeles Rams. We were talking about this idea of panic rules. Like, what do you do when coverage gets blown? What do you do when things go crazy? Like, what are the sort of bedrock best practices that you go back to? Because I think we make a lot of things very complicated, and then when you're sort of in the shit, all that goes out the window. That's what I feel like Stoicism as a philosophy is. We tend to think of philosophy as like theoretical and abstract and very high-minded. But for the ancients, it was this kind of thing that you practiced and you went over, over and over and over again, so that like in big moments, like when you have a big life

• 2:38Speaker 02

  decision, or your life is on the line, or your whole world is falling apart, like what do you do then? So that's what I think a panic rule is. And I guess, you know, if you're sort of distilling Stoicism down to some core practices, it's like focus on what you control, do the right thing, you know, don't let your emotions cloud your judgment about this. Just because they're simple doesn't mean they're easy.

• 3:03Codie Sanchez?

  That's so, so true. You know, it's interesting because I have read your book, I was telling you, for years, The Daily Stoic. And why I love it is because Stoicism, you know, if I'm going to go back and read Epictetus, or if I'm going to go back and read even Meditations, which I find like a little bit more accessible, it's dense stuff. And what I think your books do such an incredible job of, and I want people to get today, is how to take these core ideas that lead to a disciplined, and in some ways more beautiful life because of that discipline, and get it simply. And so you had this great quote that I loved, which is, "When you're lacking motivation, remind yourself, discipline now, freedom later, the labor will pass and the rewards will last." Can you tell me more about that?

• 3:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, there's a line from one of the great Stoic teachers, his name was Musonius Rufus, and he said, you know, when you do something in pursuit of pleasure, or you're taking a shortcut, like the benefit that you get from that passes quickly, but the shame or the consequence of it lasts. And he says, conversely, when you do something hard, the labor passes quickly, but like the good from that remains. Like when you work out, it's painful in the moment. When you get in a cold plunge, it's unpleasant at first. You know, when you get up early, you're tired. When you work an extra hour, you know, that's, that there's a cost to that.

• 4:29Speaker 02

  But the benefits, the benefits, they not just endure, in many cases, way off in the future, the pleasures or the benefits that you experience are a lagging indicator from that. And so if we want to think of discipline, like, discipline is, or self-discipline anyway, is about constraint. Do this, don't do that. That's hard, but it provides you the freedom down the road because you either have some financial security, you have strength, you have confidence, you have health, whatever the thing you're delaying gratification for. Well, at some point, you do get that gratification and it's a more sustainable, enduring, and

• 5:10Speaker 02

  stronger reward than whatever you would like to get in this moment.

• 5:16Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah. My husband's a former Navy SEAL and he, I remember, you know, asking him once, like, why do you like to follow the rules so much? He actually likes to follow the rules often. I think you would agree with that classification. And I, I sort of don't. And so, and silly rules, like, I'm gonna walk across the street, not in the crosswalk, like, very silly things. And he'll be like, let's just wait for the thing. And, you know, I was like, how does that work? Like, you're a Navy SEAL. And his comment to me was like, the only reason that we could do the things that we did is because we had to operate inside of the rules.

• 5:49Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 5:50Codie Sanchez?

  And like, the second that you lose the rules, there's actually all of this freedom within the constraints.

• 5:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, there's an artist, I forget who it was, that said, you know, you want to be orderly in your sort of personal life, in your space, in your, in the studio, so that you could be radically transgressive in the art. And, and I think there's something to that. Like, it does require a certain amount of rule-breaking and independent thinking to be successful at anything. But if you question everything, if you're contrarian about everything, if you're, disregard everything, what you live in is chaos and dysfunction. And also, it's exhausting because you have to think about everything. And so, when we

• 6:34Speaker 02

  think about discipline, again, as a constraint, what it really is, is freedom also from that chaos and dysfunction. And it's allowing you to channel your energy. One of the things I do talk about when I talk to military groups is, Sort of the tension you're talking about, which is like, the whole system is about creating rule followers, creating cohesion, creating coherence, creating camaraderie, a sameness. And yet, ultimately be successful at the end, there has to be independent thinking. There has to be the ability to, in the moment, do hard right things. And so, you know, from the entrepreneurial space, you can get so used to just doing your

• 7:17Speaker 02

  own thing that it makes it hard for you to function as part of a team, or part of a group, or, or just like, simplify your existence. And then conversely, you can live in a very simple, straightforward existence. You know, you do what they tell you your whole life, and then comes some big moment where what they're telling you is wrong, or incorrect, or dangerous. And do you have the courage and strength to ignore those rules then? That, that's the tension every individual has to figure out.

• 7:47Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah, you know, you've read, I don't even know how many books, and papers, and research. You own a bookstore, for the love of God.

• 7:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 7:56Codie Sanchez?

  And so, you know, what I think is interesting is, if we take these like esoteric ideas, kind of like, discipline, you do a great job of simplifying them to the things that you can do. So if somebody's listening today, and they're like, "All right, I'm buying in, I'm buying what you're selling. I'm buying this idea that a life that is more disciplined could actually be better." What is the simplest, smallest daily habit or action that you could apply to have discipline in your life?

• 8:20Speaker 02

  The problem is, we tend to think of these, like, virtues or these ideas as like, things you are or aren't, that you have or don't have, right? Like, "I'm a courageous person, I'm a creative person, I'm a disciplined person." And then we think it's this matter of identity, and then when we don't have it, we feel bad about ourselves. Actually, the ancients, Aristotle specifically says, "No, no, no, that's totally wrong." It's something you do or don't do, right? He says like to be a woodworker, you work with wood. That's how you develop the, the skill, the virtue of woodworking or playing the flute or whatever it is. So if you want to be more courageous, you gotta do stuff on a consistent basis that scares you. That's how you have courage.

• 9:04Speaker 02

  You either are doing it or not. So it's that it's, it's a verb and not a noun. And so like if discipline, you're going into the new year, a lot of us are like, you know, I want to eat better. I, you might, maybe you're like, I want to be more disciplined. Well, that's a really hard thing to be generally. So let, you want to pick some specific things and you know, like what time you wake up is a great one. Or conversely, what time do you go to bed? Like a lot of people are like, you gotta wake up early. Well, waking up early in isolation is not great if you stay up till two in the morning, right? Cause now you're actually being, you have what they would call in the military, poor sleep discipline, right? And so you, maybe it's like, hey, I'm in, in 2026, I'm gonna go to bed by 10 PM every night, right? Then you've just, by the way, made getting up earlier a lot easier.

• 9:49Speaker 02

  So I would pick it up some, some core accessible, definable tasks or items that you're going to be more disciplined about, even like, I want to eat better this year. That is a very hard, ill-defined thing to do. But if you say, I'm gonna quit sugar this year, or I'm gonna go vegan this year, whatever. It could be any, across the spectrum of the things. The point is, what is the, what is the black and white line that you're drawing? And then you're on one side of that line or not. That's what discipline is. It's, it's a habit or a practice that you build, not a thing that you are or aren't.

• 10:28Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah, it's a good point. I also like this idea of, that you said, like, what is the one easier sort of snowball effect move that you could do that makes the others more simple? And so like, you're right, getting up early is harder than going to sleep earlier. Whereas like laying out your workout clothes easier than just going to the gym. So it's like, what is that preemptive move you could do that's 10x easier, but leads to a higher likelihood of you doing the next step?

• 10:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, like I want. I'm going to use my phone less this year. Okay, so I'm going to

• 10:59Speaker 02

  delete social media apps from my phone, or I'm not gonna

• 11:03Codie Sanchez?

  Do you actually do that?

• 11:04Speaker 02

  I don't have any social media apps in my phone.

• 11:05Codie Sanchez?

  My husband, he's the same. This is so

• 11:08Speaker 02

  I like, obviously I have to use it for my work. I mean, I have a team that helps me, but like, if I have to check, it's on my wife's phone. So I go, hey, can I borrow your phone for a second? And then there's like, there's a ticking clock. She's like, give me my phone back, you know? But, but the, the point is like, how do you make it a little bit less tempting, right? Or maybe you go, I'm not going to sleep with my phone in the room. Or I'm going to leave it in the car when I get home from work, right? And so you can, you can say, hey, generally, I just want to do the less of this thing, which means you're going to have to make lots of individual choices throughout the day and the week and the month and the year. And you might be able to start strong with that, but as you go on, because you're tired, because you're hungry, because stuff's happening, you're going to be able to make excuses. And so

• 11:53Speaker 02

  how can you make clearer, simpler things that have like a big cumulative impact? That's what you want to think about.

• 12:01Codie Sanchez?

  We're just such good self rationalizing machines too. Like I've realized that, you know, everybody's like, oh, that guy's bad. That guy's good. I'm like, we're all sort of bad and good. We're just varying degrees of good at self rationalizing why we're bad or good.

• 12:13Speaker 02

  Yes. Yeah. I mean, there is this insidious voice that's always sort of, well, it's okay this time, right? Like the ability to make excuses, the ability to make exceptions. This is like our superpower. And you, you want to sort of preempt that as much as you can.

• 12:29Codie Sanchez?

  I like this idea of no phones because you have another quote I love, which is the secret to success in almost all fields is large, uninterrupted blocks of focused time.

• 12:37Speaker 02

  Of course.

• 12:38Codie Sanchez?

  Which feels one impossible to get.

• 12:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 12:40Codie Sanchez?

  And so how do we get it? And why, why is that the key? What does history and your experience tell us?

• 12:47Speaker 02

  You know, most of the big things in my life came from lots of thinking or concentration. I had an epiphany. I had an insight. I had an idea. I worked really hard on a problem. And then you go, well,

• 13:02Speaker 02

  If that's really the big mover, right? I mean, like even the number of ideas that I've had on vacation or on walks with my parents. I go, if I didn't have the discipline to put my work down and go for a hike. My, my, my, the last series I did, I, I had, I had the idea on a hike with my kids. And so how are you setting the, the events in motion so that thing can happen? Right? And I think people know that like, you know, creativity and problem solving requires focus. And then you go, okay, but when I look at your calendar, you were all meetings all day, all week. Of, of course you, you haven't been having ideas, right? Of course you haven't been having those conversations that unlock something.

• 13:45Speaker 02

  And also, of course you aren't happy. Like this isn't what you're meant to do. You're not meant to be on Zoom calls all day. This sucks, right? And so I, I think like, when I look at my calendar, I was just talking to my assistant about this, like it.

• 14:01Speaker 02

  Their job is to keep things out of the calendar, not put things in the calendar. Like, like the calendar should have large amounts of white space, in my opinion. And that, that's not because I'm not working. It's because I haven't scheduled interruptions to the work. Like the, if, if there's a blank space in the calendar, I'm going to use that productively. That's who I am. But if there is podcasts and meetings and errands and phone calls, what I'm not, not only am I not doing the thing. Now the thing I'm supposed to be doing is I'm trying to squeeze into the little cracks as opposed to it being the main thing. So, so like, how do we schedule the time when we're at our best is really important.

• 14:42Speaker 02

  And to me, and I think you find this with most creative people, it's usually the mornings when it's quietest. Toni Morrison, the. The novelist, she was a single mom and she was an editor at Random House as she's working on her first novel. And she's, she found like to get any writing done, she had to get up, she said, not just to get writing done, but to do her best writing, she liked to write as she saw the sunrise. And then she said it was, she found that she did her best writing before she heard the word mom for the first time. And so you're like, okay, so, so you know that that is from 4:30 AM to 6:00 AM. And so you've got to orient your day around that, not, well, that's when I'm best, but I actually sit down finally

• 15:26Speaker 02

  to write at 2:00 PM, you know? And so when are you at your best? When can you concentrate the most? When are the fewest interruptions? And then how do you make some hard adult decisions to center everything around that?

• 15:41Codie Sanchez?

  I feel like you need to stop yelling at me.

• 15:43Speaker 02

  Sorry.

• 15:44Codie Sanchez?

  Because I feel very called out about this.

• 15:45Speaker 02

  I'm yelling at myself as well. And these are things you learn, you learn the hard way. Like every time I sit down to work in the afternoon, I'm like, this is why I don't do this. Because like, I'm at best 70% of my best, you know? And that's, that's not what you want to be doing.

• 16:02Codie Sanchez?

  But I love that line, like, your job is to take things, keep things off the calendar, not put that on, put them on. That is not typically how we think. And it's like this inverse thinking, you know, the Charlie Mungerism, which is like, what is actually the goal? And so how can we think two or three steps forward? I like how your mind works like that. And so you have a couple of quotes that I love too on procrastination.

• 16:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 16:24Codie Sanchez?

  Which is something we all struggle with. But this one about to procrastinate is to be entitled, it is arrogant, it assumes there will be a later, it assumes you'll have the discipline to get it later, despite not having the discipline now.

• 16:36Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 16:37Codie Sanchez?

  And it's so beautiful. And so tell me, what, how do you battle procrastination? And what have you learned through Stoicism on how the greats do this too?

• 16:46Speaker 02

  Well, we all battle procrastination. This Seneca says, this is the one thing all fools have in common, is that they're always getting ready to start, right? Like, we don't say we're never going to do it. We say tomorrow, we say next week, we say in the new year, right? We say, when the kids start school, right? We, we make up a reason why it can't be now. And the problem with this, this connects to another really, I think, powerful Stoic practice. I have a Memento Mori ring on right now. The Stoics are meditating on our mortality. So like, it's not just like, hey, you're probably not going to get to it later. That's a lie we tell ourselves. You know, I'll do it in the morning is probably the most insidious lie there is.

• 17:27Speaker 02

  But it also presumes that there is a later, right? Like, it presumes that you can call your mom, you know, when things settle down. It presumes that next year is yours to take for granted. And it's not. We don't have forever. Not just that all of us are going to die at some point, but that point could be like right now. Or conversely, it could be someone else. I mean, it was a very life-changing experience for me. It's a, I feel guilty on some level that it came out of such a, you know, that it came at such a cost. But I remember when I was an editor at this newspaper, a friend of mine sent me this article. He was like, hey, here's my column.

• 18:12Speaker 02

  And I saw it. I remember I looked at the email and I was like, I'll get to this on Monday. You know? And he died on Sunday. He went out for a hike and he had a heart attack and he died. And I didn't, I didn't even give him the courtesy of saying like, hey, I got this. Thank you. I'll review it on Monday. I just, I left him on read, you know? And so you, not only do you not have forever, not only could you go at any moment, but the person or the thing that you're taking for granted could go away at any moment. And so it's not that it is for certain going to go, but it could. And this has to inform our procrastination, our tendency to procrastinate, because in light of it, it becomes extremely entitled and in some cases, very reckless.

• 18:56Codie Sanchez?

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• 19:40Codie Sanchez?

  I was just watching 1923, one of like the Taylor Sheridan series, and I'm not a big TV watcher, but I find it really useful because their lives are so hard and miserable and terrible and short. And you know, it's, it's the epitome of like nasty, brutish, short.

• 19:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 19:57Codie Sanchez?

  But I think one of the things that it reminds me is this exactly this momenta mori, because I found for entrepreneurs, we're a little crazy. We always live in the future or like in the moment intensely. And so this idea of it could all end, it's not going to matter, you don't matter, is actually kind of hard. And so I was curious from your take, for high achievers in particular, is living in the moment and this idea of analyzing death particularly hard?

• 20:24Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, I think one of the things you see as high achievers or high performance people is this idea, we're talking about delayed gratification. That is what makes them great, right? Like, I'm going to be really miserable now so that in the future I can be successful. And there's something to that, right? Like, as I say, all success is a lagging indicator. The problem is, and this isn't so much about momenta mori, but it is an important thing, like, the idea that the shit now is worth enduring because it will be amazing later, is a dangerous thing to fool with, right? Not just because you might not get later, but because you don't actually control whether later happens. And by that, I don't mean you could die. I just mean, like, the market could shift, the economy could crash,

• 21:10Speaker 02

  the government could nationalize your industry. So many things could happen, right? Like, you can do everything right in life and get fucked. And so I do think we spend a lot of time doing things in the present.

• 21:24Speaker 02

  And we're, but we're trading it for this future payoff. And again, this is partly rational and partly okay, but it can be like, I just learned that if, and I learned this the hard way over the many books that I've done, like if, if the experience is miserable and painful and lonely and stressful. But the payoff is that it comes out and it hits the list and people say nice things about it.

• 21:55Speaker 02

  That's a big gamble because you can get screwed by the list. Your book could come out in the middle of a pandemic, you know, you could get canceled, like things can happen. And so I, I've tried to do a lot of work at getting better at not being miserable while I'm doing it, right? Like, like, how do I enjoy it while I'm doing it? That, that doesn't mean I don't work any less hard, but what I try to do is go like, this is the part that's up to me. And so enjoying it and getting rewarded for it is also up to me. And I'm not going to be a miserable fuck day to day so that in the future I feel good for two weeks when it comes out and then I start the whole thing again. That, that seems like a bad trade is I guess what I'm saying.

• 22:39Speaker 02

  And I think a lot of, like, whenever I talk to athletes, there's not a single athlete that you've, you will ever talk to who's retired, who, who, who doesn't say something like, I wish I enjoyed playing more. Cause at some point it just goes away. And then, and then at that point, the winning and losing stops mattering. And all they think back is like, I was in the NBA and I was miserable because of winning or losing, instead of being able to just be grateful that I get to play professional basketball. Do you know what I mean?

• 23:10Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah, a hundred percent. So how do you, how do you enjoy the journey while it is a miserable one?

• 23:18Speaker 02

  Well, in, in the Bhagavad Gita, they say that, you know, you're, you're entitled to the work, not the rewards of the work. And so you go, okay, this is, this is the thing. There was a period in my life when I was younger, when all I wanted was a chance to do a book, right? And here I am doing that, right? Like this is the dream. This is what I signed up for. Like you, you love real estate, you love managing people, you love.

• 23:45Speaker 02

  Training, you have practice, whatever the thing is, you have to love it and not what maybe or maybe not comes out of the other side. And so I just, I just try to put like the finishing touches on each day and go like, I did my absolute best. I made a positive contribution. I got to do this thing. I gave my best. That's wonderful. And then I try to think of whatever rewards or success happens later, not as, as unimportant, but as extra. So I've said this before, but I remember on my first book, you know, I was probably 10% proud and happy that I got to do a book and 90%

• 24:26Speaker 02

  that, that period where, so for people don't know, your books, your books come out on a Tuesday. Sales are basically pre-orders and Tuesday through Sunday. And then there's this period from Sunday to Wednesday and then back a million years ago, when I started, there was also Friday. You would find out on the New York Times and the Wall Street Journalist, that week period where the book was done and there's nothing else I could do, and I was waiting to hear how it did. That was 90% of the success for me on that first book, right? Like I'm waiting, I'm waiting for somebody else who I don't know, who is following arbitrary, made up rules and has a bias and an agenda. I'm waiting for them to tell me

• 25:10Speaker 02

  the vast major, whether, in the vast majority of cases, what I just worked for years of my life on was worth it or not. And that is crazy, right? Like if, if waiting for the deal to close or the wire to come through, or the, the article to hit the presses, or whatever the thing is, right? The Grammy nomination to come in, the, the Oscars, whatever the thing is, if that's all of it for you. You better hope everything goes right and you're part of the in crowd and they accept you. And so I've tried steadily and it's been a lot of work and, and there's been some ups and downs, but I've tried to flip that like 90% I get to do my dream.

• 25:53Speaker 02

  I said what I wanted to say. I worked really hard on this. I know it's good. I grew as a person, all these things that are up to me. And then there's 10% where I'm like, sweet, it debuted at number one. That's really cool too, but like I was already in the A range before that happened.

• 26:10Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah. You know, it's funny with creating online too. It's, I've really found it the same way. I haven't been doing it as long as you, but let's say I started getting online three and a half, four years ago.

• 26:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 26:20Codie Sanchez?

  And at first it's so easy to get sucked into this arbitrary number of people who engage or don't engage like or don't like. And at some point you start realizing that you hate the thing that you created to get the likes for other people to like it. But you don't like it. It is the most, you know, bizarre circle until finally, thankfully I was older when I started doing it. And I was like, this is a sick disease. Why are we playing this game?

• 26:44Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 26:44Codie Sanchez?

  Let's create things we actually like and are proud of. And don't get me wrong, we stray away from it all the time. And all of a sudden I'm, you know, in a chicken suit on South Congress or something ludicrous. You're like, how did we get here? But that practice of coming back to, did I create this thing because I'm really proud of it? And I think it should exist in the world. And if everybody hates it, fuck me, but I don't care.

• 27:02Speaker 02

  And also how do you set up systems and a culture and make choices where it's enjoyable while you're doing it, right? So like if you create so much stress and so much anxiety and so much pressure. And by the way, you're doing so many things at one time that, that like you're just, your life sucks. You know, again, you're putting it all on the potential payoff, which, which if you talk to successful people, nobody ever gets. And I, I don't mean that they're never successful. I just mean, nobody feels like they arrived, that they finally got, you know, more out of it than they put into it. That never happens. So you have to think.

• 27:41Speaker 02

  Like, how do you make your day to day life and system and career and the thing you do as close to a form of reward and enjoyment and a process that you appreciate?

• 27:56Speaker 02

  And then here's the trick is like, if that's the case, you will do it a lot. And you will probably make good stuff that works, right? If you hate it and it's the worst, like I know people who they haven't done this. And so like, they just don't do that much work. Like they're, they're intimidated and reluctant to like, start again. Right? Like if you're, if you're an athlete who's dreading the start of the season. Well, you're not going to work that hard in the off season. But if you're like someone who I just fucking love playing, you're going to play all the time and you're always going to be thinking about it and you're just going to put more into it. So I, weirdly, I found the less I think about the, what the Stoics would call the externals, the more I just do better work.

• 28:40Speaker 02

  And then paradoxically, the more I get the things.

• 28:44Codie Sanchez?

  It is sort of funny, isn't it? You know, I want to talk about another paradox that I loved a story you wrote, actually in the new book, Wisdom at Work, which is you tell the story of a Zen master and his beautifully prized cup and what happens? And then the story of Epictetus and his lamp. And one, I think it'd be interesting for you to tell the story, if you remember it. And then two, I want to talk about, I can't sometimes reconcile the positive versus the negative of like manifesting or focusing on things.

• 29:14Speaker 02

  Well, the Zen masters had a lot of stories about cups. I think the one you're talking about is the Zen master who has, has a cup. It's his prized possession and he tells himself over and over again, the cup is already broken, the cup is already broken. And you know, one day the cup breaks and he's not surprised by it. For the Stoics, you know,

• 29:34Speaker 02

  Although I'm sure they did appreciate positive visualization, they actually practiced negative visualization. So like if the Stoics believed that the secret was real, they'd be getting themselves in some real trouble, right? Because they said that actually you should be thinking about the worst case scenario, thinking about the cup being broken, thinking about the travel delays, thinking about getting canceled, thinking about the deal falling through, you know, thinking about negative media attention. And their point was not that this invites this to happen, because that's not how that works. It was that the unexpected lands the heaviest, right? Seneca said that the one thing a leader is never allowed to say is, wow, I didn't think

• 30:17Speaker 02

  that would happen. And you're right, that's, he's right, that is the job of a leader is to be like, okay, we planned for this, here's what we're gonna do, right? And you're talking about your husband in the Navy SEAL, they practice for the worst things the most, right? They don't go like, and here's how it goes swimmingly, because it always goes swimmingly, right? It's like, I mean, on the famous bin Laden raid, they had an extra helicopter because they planned that one might crash, right? And what you, what you get, not, not only is it situations where one crashes, then you have the extra helicopter, but you've also developed this muscle of like, hey, shit goes wrong all the time, and I don't freak out, I just go to the next option. And so

• 31:01Speaker 02

  that's what you want to cultivate, right? So like, people, the Stoics use this word indifferent a lot. And people think that indifference is like, that's a controversial word, right? Like indifference means you, you don't care. But the Stoics meant it in the sense like, I'm indifferent to whether it is hot or cold. I'm indifferent to whether it is a bull market or a bear market, right? Like, whether it's a time of peace or a time of war, because I'm gonna figure out what I'm gonna do, right? That's what, that's what it's about. So I don't think it's like pessimistic, and I also don't think it's like tempting fate. What you're trying to do is think about what could happen, so that if and when that does happen,

• 31:47Speaker 02

  You're like, okay, and then you do what you need to do.

• 31:50Codie Sanchez?

  So do you think most people visualize or manifest wrong?

• 31:54Speaker 02

  Well, I, I think, uh, most people are afraid to think of bad things because they think they'll invite that into their life. And the problem is, bad things are going to come into your life, whether you think about them or not. And that's what they mean when they say the unexpected blow lands heaviest. Like, to be surprised is to add insults to injury, right? To, to think it's unfair, to think that it's devastating, to, to, to not know what to do. That's, that's how you take a bad thing and make it worse. So I don't think, you know, in a, in a bull market or in a boom time to be going, what would I do if market dropped by 40%? You know,

• 32:36Speaker 02

  that's not going to make the market go up or down, but it does put in,

• 32:43Speaker 02

  it puts in motion some thoughts that you might need to rely on at some point. Like Napoleon said that, um, his generals should say to themselves three times a day, what would I do if the enemy appeared on my left? What would I do if the enemy appeared on my right? What would I do if the enemy appeared on me behind me? And this is to say, like, you don't know what the enemy is going to do. They're precisely trying to come upon you with surprise. But also, I think it's just a good mental exercise. Like, it's, it's keeping your mind moving instead of being complacent and secure, which, you know, none of us are.

• 33:18Codie Sanchez?

  Do you think you have a photographic memory? Your one liner recall is amazing.

• 33:22Speaker 02

  This is my job. Uh, this is my job. I don't think I have a, actually, I know I don't have a photographic memory. What I have is a system by which, when I find information that is interesting to me, I write it and organize it and

• 33:39Speaker 02

  return to it enough times that it. I develop a feel for it.

• 33:45Codie Sanchez?

  I want to hear about that because you know, you talk about Abraham Lincoln, you know, famously, I think people would call him a stubborn reader.

• 33:53Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 33:53Codie Sanchez?

  And that he, you know, would have to, in order to get him to remember something, you would have to like etch it on steel and steel is quite hard.

• 34:01Speaker 02

  No, no, what he said was that his mind was like steel, that it was hard, it's hard to scratch something into it.

• 34:07Codie Sanchez?

  Right.

• 34:07Speaker 02

  But once it's there, it's there forever.

• 34:09Codie Sanchez?

  So I want to talk about that. So what is your process to do that?

• 34:13Speaker 02

  Well, I read a lot. That's like, I see myself as like a professional reader. That's my job. And, and then I don't leave it there. Like I read with a pen and I take notes and then I transfer those notes. I was, I was just before this, I was just read something for a book I'm writing and taking that and I'm transferring it to note cards by hand. And it's not quick and it is not scalable, but that is like the whole point. I think sometimes we look for technological solutions to make things easy and the whole point is some things are supposed to be hard. You know, it's supposed to be difficult and it is in the difficult part that you're

• 34:56Speaker 02

  scratching it into the steel and then it's there. So I do, I take advantage of all sorts of new tools, of course, AI being one of them, but my, my research method is as analog and as old school as it can be because I'm trying to actually understand what I'm dealing with.

• 35:21Codie Sanchez?

  You know, I love this because you talk a lot about knowledge. I mean, you could say your entire project in some way is that. And I think it was in wisdom at work, but I loved the line from the book. It's actually from Thomas Gray, I believe, where he said, "You must love learning if you would possess it."

• 35:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 35:39Codie Sanchez?

  And, and

• 35:42Codie Sanchez?

  I think that was applied to Lincoln in your book. But as a stubborn learner, somebody who wants to possess knowledge, how do we do that? How do you actually go and learn things? You've talked about reading books multiple times. You've talked about rereading them. Like, how does one go and really acquire deep knowledge and remember it?

• 36:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, there's a magical thing that happens when you get a payoff for having like learned and studied something, right? Like, I think in school, you're assigned a bunch of books and the payoff is like you do well on a test that you're not sure why you're having to do. But the first time you read a book and it changes your life or it makes you a friend or it makes you money. And you go, oh, there was like a return on this investment. Like you think like Warren Buffett is told to read The Intelligent Investor by Benjamin Graham. And, you know, that's probably the single best investment in human history. You know, like he reads this one book and he makes $100 billion. But, you know, my life was changed by a handful of books that I read.

• 36:46Speaker 02

  So it's a hard thing to explain until you've experienced it. But when you, when you go, oh, this is for something. This isn't just like to impress random people. But like there is in these books, in these lectures, in these experiences and these people out there, like priceless wisdom, things that can say, not just save you painful trial and error, but can make you money, can, can, can change the course of your life. That's like a really powerful thing. And it's sad to think like most, most people or many people have never experienced that. Like you talk to people and you're like, I haven't read a book since high school.

• 37:28Speaker 02

  And you go, so you learned a lot of things the hard way. You know, like, like there's a lot of things that every, every phase of your life, from them, then to now, everything you've done. A lot of people have done before you and made all the mistakes and made all the right choices and written books about it or made videos about it or talked about it. Or there's movies of like, there's so many things you could have learned that you decided to learn.

• 37:59Speaker 02

  On your own, that's crazy.

• 38:00Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah.

• 38:01Speaker 00

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• 38:48Speaker 04

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• 39:32Codie Sanchez?

  And also, I think books are really unique because you have to, if you're not listening to them but reading them, you really can't do anything else. There's no multitasking

• 39:39Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 39:39Codie Sanchez?

  while reading a book. Whereas a movie, you could be thinking about other things. It's very passive. Like, reading is so active. And again, to your point on hard things lead to the right outcome, it's harder.

• 39:48Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 39:48Codie Sanchez?

  And so it probably does get that scratch and steal that, you know, Lincoln talks about. But I was curious for you, you're a big rereader of books, from what I can see. So what are the, what are the five, 10 books that Ryan Holiday says changed his life and that you go back to and reread over and over again?

• 40:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think, uh, reading a book once is great.

• 40:12Speaker 02

  But when you read it again, you are reading a new book because you're a new person. The book is the same, but you are in a different place and you will take different things out of it. I think Marx's meditations is one of the most incredible books ever written. You know, the private thoughts of the most powerful man in the world, you know, it's, it's an amazing book. I think all of Robert Greene's books are amazing. You know, mastery is worth reading and rereading the 48 laws of power, the laws of human nature. You know, like Robert's stuff is designed to be layered and to take multiple things out of them. I think Thoreau and Emerson, you know, civil disobedience and self reliance are also incredible.

• 40:56Speaker 02

  All of the Stoics, you have Seneca, you have Epictetus, I love. I read this book by Tolstoy almost every day called The Calendar of Wisdom, which is like a collection of all of the reading he did in the course of his life, just like little passages every day. It's sort of, it's a similar book to The Daily Stoic.

• 41:15Speaker 02

  You know, I, I think the idea is that to really understand something, you gotta spend a lot of time with it. It can't be, I think people are always looking for shortcuts, you know? And they're like, oh, I read this on 3X speed on audiobook. And you're like, I don't know if that's, I don't know if that's winning here. Like, I don't, it's, I don't know if you're trying to get it done as fast as possible. I think you're trying to spend as much time as possible with it. And so, you know, I don't know anyone that reads a lot that's like trying to, to spend less time doing it.

• 41:51Codie Sanchez?

  No, that's definitely not the case. Is Tolstoy's book, is he just like tragically sad throughout it? I find all of his writing to be such a-

• 41:58Speaker 02

  His fiction is, is very much that way, but this is, it has more, it has more hope in it. And it's more spiritual than you would guess.

• 42:05Codie Sanchez?

  Interesting.

• 42:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was, so he, he wrote, he thought it was his, his greatest book, this thing called Calendar of Wisdom. And then, uh, you know, the Russian revolution happens like almost right after his death. And so it's banned and it's not really rediscovered until the late eighties. So it's just, it's a, it's a very popular book, but it's much, much less known than any of his fiction. Um, and it's like a lovely little self-help book.

• 42:31Codie Sanchez?

  What? Let's, let's give like for a particular person. So you're a father, you have a son and a daughter?

• 42:36Speaker 02

  I have two sons.

• 42:37Codie Sanchez?

  Two sons?

• 42:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 42:38Codie Sanchez?

  So, you know, for them coming into young men, let's say, what are the books that you will set, you know, on their desk as they come into being, you know, young men that you would want them to read?

• 42:48Speaker 02

  That's a good question. I haven't, I haven't come up with a reading list yet because they're, they're still pretty young, but we spent a lot of time when they were young, you know, look, children, children's books are great and they're all about pizza and monkeys and, you know, ridiculous shit. And I, I love that, right? There's nothing better than your kids like having fun reading, like Adam Rubin has this book called The High Five Book. Have you seen this one? You're like smacking it, you know, like I, they, they have this one right now that they love called like the, the, the dumb guide to all the stupid birds in the world. And it's just filled with like cursing. They, I love all that stuff, but I think there's, that's not why we read to our kids, right? Like we, we read to our kids to instill them lessons and to teach them how to be a person

• 43:33Speaker 02

  in the world. And so we, we spent a lot of time with the sort of myths and stories and fables, you know, like Aesop's Fables operate on these incredible multitude of levels, right? Like to them, it's a funny story about a fox and grapes. And to you, it's, it's a lesson about not being jealous or, um, you know, abandoning what you have and, you know, because you want something else or writing off what someone else has. What, what I, what I mean is that I, I try to go to the things that contain wisdom that, that maybe they don't fully understand in the moment, but I, I want that familiarity to be there and I want it to be working on their brains.

• 44:16Speaker 02

  So we spent the last couple of years like doing the Odyssey and then we listened to podcasts about it and then we read a graphic novel about it and then we read the actual poetry and then we went to, uh, Greece and, and like the, I, what I'm trying to do is when there's that like flicker of interest, um, to, to fill it with all the possibilities of that thing, but I, I try to go mostly to stories of like great men and women from history that are gonna inspire them to want to be like those. People, because I don't want them to be like a monkey or whatever. Like, I want them to be, you know, like Cincinnatus, or the 300 Spartans, or George Washington. I want to pick those kind

• 44:59Speaker 02

  of stories that, you know, whether they're true or not is much less important to me than whether they have some kind of moral lesson that sticks with them that, by the way, when they get into situations in life, I can be like, this is like that thing that we learned about.

• 45:14Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah. You know, you have a lot in here, which I think is hard for people to do, but so important, which is about like knowing oneself. And so, you know, there's a quote about so much knowledge is lost to us because we are ourselves lost and lost unto ourselves. The Oracle of Delphi sort of famously says, know thyself.

• 45:36Speaker 02

  There's three things inscribed over the Temple of Apollo in Delphi, where I was just this summer, and it's know thyself, all things in moderation. And then this one, I think, has particular relevance to entrepreneurs, planners. It says, offer a guarantee and disaster threatens, which is basically Murphy's Law. You know, if you think it's going to go this way, just wait. But, but, you know, we tend to chase knowledge. You know, we want to learn about all these facts in the world. We want to learn about these systems, this history, how physics works, how the universe works. And then, yeah, we're strangers to ourselves. Like, I've met a lot

• 46:21Speaker 02

  of smart people. I would say I've met many fewer people with what we would call self-awareness, right? And that, that self-knowledge, a knowledge of our weaknesses, a knowledge of why we are the way we are, a knowledge of what we like, knowledge of what we don't like. Knowledge of how and why we operate, by the way, also just knowledge of humanity, too. That's why I think Robert Greene's book on on human nature is so important. But just like knowing like how we work, why we work, and some of this you get from reading, some of it you get from experience, some of it you get from therapy, you know, some of it you get from from close friends. But the idea of just like knowing yourself

• 47:03Speaker 02

  is ultimately going to be the knowledge I think you need most at difficult points in your life, because you're going to want to catch yourself from doing that thing that you might unconsciously do, or following that pattern again, or, you know, reacting immaturely or irresponsibly. Like, we all have, I would say, like, like an inner child, right? Like, there's that part of us that's still a kid. And you don't want a kid making adult decisions for you, right? And so if you don't know who that kid is, and what they're triggered by, and why they do the things they do, you're going to make some real irresponsible, dangerous decisions in the moment. You're going to think they make

• 47:45Speaker 02

  sense. But if you had a little more self awareness, you'd be like, no, no, that's that part of me that just like instinctively intuitively like, you know, you tell me to do this, I'm gonna do that. And it's like, sometimes that's a good thing to do. But maybe in this case, it's not.

• 48:00Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah. You know, you wrote an entire book, Ego is the Enemy. You talk about a lot about ego being bad. But can you tell us, like, the greats had to struggle with ego?

• 48:09Speaker 02

  Well, it is interesting, right? Like, I think we've all seen, whether in direct personal experience, or, you know, culture, history, art, we can see what ego looks like in other people. And we can see how it holds them back. And it's not that egotistical never people never become successful. Most of them, many of them do, right? Most successful people are have big egos. But what you see up close is how this ego prevents them from being more successful. And then, of course, what you don't see is all the times that ego destroyed someone before they became successful, and you never you never heard about them. But I guess what I'm saying is that you can see how ego holds other people. Back so much. And then you're like, but not me. And that's fucking ego right there.

• 48:54Speaker 02

  You know, like, like the idea that you don't have an ego is like the definition of ego. Right. You're like, I'm above this, though it's different with me is like, you know, profoundly egotistical. But, um, yeah, what, what ego does is it gets in the way of the feedback that we need to get, the relationships we need to have, the truth we need to see, the reality we need to understand, the weaknesses we have, but can't see. And so if you're trying to do something that's really hard and the risks are high and, uh, you know, the odds are low, ego is like a real dangerous thing to get in the mix. Now, oftentimes people go, but, but is it a little bit of ego important?

• 49:36Speaker 02

  Right? Like, don't you have to have that part of you that wants to do stuff or believes you can do stuff? I would say what you're probably talking about there is confidence. This person you're talking about, like, I think you probably very clearly see a distinction between confidence and ego. It's ego is something toxic and much harder to deal with.

• 49:55Codie Sanchez?

  Oh, yeah. I mean, what, what like stories or moments made you even recognize this? You know how sometimes, I don't know about you, but like, I'll have to have a story break me through. And you could tell me something theoretical and then unless you can kind of like, can you explain that to me or give me a case study or like, tell me a time where there's like, let me explain to you how ego destroyed a man or a woman.

• 50:16Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 50:16Codie Sanchez?

  Or what we could learn from it.

• 50:18Speaker 02

  Well, this is why reading and experience like in the pursuit of wisdom are so important. Like you read about things and then you, you see it in real life and you go, oh, this is what that playwright from 2,000 years ago was talking about. Or conversely, you go out and you have a bunch of experiences and then you're watching Shakespeare or a movie, or you're listening to a, a song or a poem, you're reading a book and you're like, oh, this is that, right? Like there's a similarity there. And so I was thinking about doing this book about ego. So I, I wrote the obstacles away, which is about the things that get in our way and how we can use them to our advantage. But I was like, well, but most obstacles are not external.

• 51:01Speaker 02

  It's not like, oh, this is a bear market or, oh, they just put a bunch of regulations in or, oh, this happened to this person and now they have to overcome. Most of the, most of the reasons that empires fall or people don't succeed, it has nothing to do with external stuff at all. It's, it's in here, right? Like, The problem is you. Ego is like that big problem. So I was thinking about doing a book about ego. And I had been for many years, the director of marketing at American Apparel, and I'd left when my book started to work. And I got called back when they famously fired the CEO and founder. And I was a consultant in what was a last ditch attempt to save the company from him and the sort of downward spiral that he put it in.

• 51:45Speaker 02

  And watching someone who'd built a basically a billion dollar company, that had 250 stores in 20 countries that had revolutionized fashion, that had done a lot of good in the world too, and just also was this feat of logistical and business and creative genius. Watch them destroy it and then watch them not be able to handle the objective feedback that, hey, you fucked this up and we're firing you. And if you can just sit over here and be in timeout, your shares will one day be worth a lot of money again. And instead engage in this sort of this death wish, like he destroyed it from the outside.

• 52:27Speaker 02

  You couldn't even allow it to be handed off to someone else. And it wasn't me that was doing it. But, but watching him then destroy it from the outside, double down on all the things that got him in trouble and then, you know, lose all the shares and everyone lost their job. That was the sort of subtext of the book. As I was writing about ego historically, but I was watching it also happen in real time. And that, that's not a, that's not a, an isolated incident, right? Like there are so many stories like that in the history of business and politics. And there's this point where all the, all the assets the person has turn into liabilities. And ego is usually like the swing vote in that.

• 53:13Speaker 02

  In that transition.

• 53:14Codie Sanchez?

  How do you tell if you're falling prey to ego? Is there like a practice you do? Do you look in the mirror and you go, Ryan? Good looking son of a bitch. This is not it.

• 53:23Speaker 02

  When you, when you find yourself saying like, how dare you? You know, or like, who are they?

• 53:28Codie Sanchez?

  Who do they think they are?

• 53:29Speaker 02

  Yes. Do you have any idea? You know, those are all things, uh, like when you're, when you're saying like, oh, it's different this time. Or the rules don't apply. Or it's different with me. Or you don't understand. You know, like I, I tend to find like those kinds of phrases or ideas to be, um, to be very, uh, insightful, little indicators, you know? Oftentimes I find, and again, I, ego is there. It's always there. It's just, are you letting it make the decisions or not? Like when I send in one of my books and I get, I have in my inbox right now, a round of notes

• 54:08Speaker 02

  from my editor, and I've not looked at it for three weeks because I know my initial reaction is, what the fuck? You know, how like, who are you to tell me, you know, like, I want to let this sit and I want to get in a better place. And then, you know, I find when I go through it, I go, okay, well, there's some stuff in here. And then, you know, maybe I'll do this one, you know? Maybe I'll start with all the typos. I'll, I'll, you know, and then after I've gone through it a couple of times, I put in like 80% of what they said. Right? But in the, in the initial moment, you're like, I handed you perfection and you gave me, you know, a marked up, underlined draft. How dare you, you know?

• 54:50Speaker 02

  So it's, it's like, I tend to find that the first reaction is emotional or egotistical, or, you know, that's where your insecurities come to light. But if you sort of sit and let it process a little bit, you can get something closer to. More objective or rational.

• 55:08Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah. One of the other things I like about what you talk about is you have a lot of opinions, obviously, but, which I think is a good thing, but I loved one of the lines you have from Marcus Aurelius, which is that you always have the power to have no opinion. So I was curious on you, do you think everyone should have an opinion? And if so, why? If not, why?

• 55:31Speaker 02

  Well, we all have opinions. It's, it's just how often are these opinions serving us? And how often do, uh, did anyone ask, you know?

• 55:42Speaker 02

  Understanding that you have the power to just not think about something, to not have an opinion, I think is very empowering, especially to go, hey, like, um, I don't have to care about what you like, you know? I think that's a, like, when you're young, you have a lot of opinions about, like, whether, like, music, art, comedy, or whatever is, like, objectively good or not. And then you get older, you're like, who gives a shit? If you like this, you like it. You're not wrong. If you like it, you are not wrong. Right? Uh, if you tell me I have to like it, that's different. But that's not what you're doing. But we, we just, we just tend to have opinions about so many things. That's what the media ecosystem is about, right?

• 56:27Speaker 02

  That's what social media is driven by. Hey, this happened. What do you think of this? Don't you want to leave a comment? You know, don't you want to get in an argument with a total fucking stranger about, about something that not only doesn't matter, but they might not even be a total stranger. You could be arguing with a bot right now. And so the ability to go, that's what you think. Cool. Is really, really important. And, and what this should do ultimately is save you to have opinions or to feel strongly about the things that do matter and that you do have some semblance of a say over.

• 57:10Speaker 02

  And so I think just a lot of us are following too much in the sort of latest outrage cycle. Following too much in real time as it's happening. I even think about this as a parent, like the arguments I got in with my parents over things as a kid that in retrospect, they don't care about and I don't care about anymore. And if they had just waited, I would have gotten over it. You know what I mean?

• 57:34Codie Sanchez?

  Yep.

• 57:34Speaker 02

  So I just try to think with my kids, just like, do I need to have a thought on like, how this like, I'm making this as if it's some issue of character or if it's some, something, you know, essential about the functioning of our lives and it isn't, you know, like, if you want to wear Crocs, wear Crocs. I don't care, you know, like.

• 57:53Codie Sanchez?

  No, that's not allowed, you know, baseline.

• 57:55Speaker 02

  But, but so much of conflict, especially when your kids are older, is rooted in just your parents having, the parents having opinions about things that they, that they don't, they don't need to have an opinion about.

• 58:10Codie Sanchez?

  That's very true. Have you ever left negative comments under somebody else's post on the internet?

• 58:14Speaker 02

  I mean, every time I regret, like, there's not a single time I've ever posted anything on social media, like in the moment that I later was like, I'm so glad I did that, you know?

• 58:25Codie Sanchez?

  I just always wonder who's out there, uh, comment, you know, like, I'm having a breakfast and I really don't like yogurt, so no yogurt today. And somebody's like, fuck you, I love yogurt. You're like, why? Can't you just love yogurt over there somewhere else?

• 58:39Speaker 02

  I mean, for Daily Stoic, we were just doing this fundraising thing for Feeding America and, it was amazing to watch people have negative opinions about that, you know?

• 58:50Codie Sanchez?

  For Feeding America?

• 58:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was just like, well, what about this, you know, or whatever?

• 58:53Codie Sanchez?

  Oh, right.

• 58:54Speaker 02

  What about this cause? Or like, you know, uh, I don't, I didn't see you talking about this also. Or like, are you also going to raise money for this? And it's like, I'm doing this right now. This is what the one I'm doing. You don't have to participate. No one, like, I didn't even ask you to participate. And by the way, what they're trying to do is, is denigrate the good that you are doing. So they don't have to feel bad about the nothing they are generally doing. They're trying to, they're trying to go, if I cancel this out, then we're even and then I don't have to feel, you know, like compelled to do. Do something that that's something I think it took me a while to understand. But like, why do people gamble in casinos? Like, why do people smoke? Like, why do people do a lot of things that they shouldn't be doing?

• 59:36Speaker 02

  Is there some kind of biological urge or susceptibility that smart people or, you know, some kind of chemical or system has triggering, like, is triggers or preys on? And they don't understand that that's what's happening. Do you know what I mean? Like, I think it just realizing that, like, social media is dependent on your unpaid labor, emotional and otherwise. Like, it is designed to make you uncomfortable or provoke you into clicking, reading, or posting,

• 1:00:20Speaker 02

  or watching, or whatever it is. And that, like, it's really good at that. And so I do have some sympathy for the people, right? Like, the only way to win is not to play, right? And and they've got to understand that, like, this thing is is is manipulating you. Like, you're the product that's being sold here. This outrage that you're feeling, this fight that you're picking, that's the driving engine of this whole system. And you gotta not do it.

• 1:00:56Codie Sanchez?

  It's very true. Yeah, I've increasingly, now these days, I'm like totally uninterested in discussing, for instance, politics. And so like, I think it's important as a civics, you know, person, a member of society, to like, do your civics duty and to participate in it. But I find like angrily yelling at people on the internet one way or the other is not that useful. And then what's fascinating is every time I have found somebody who might diabolically disagree with me. You know, I've had people on the podcast that are way to the left. I've had people on the podcast that are way to the right, Karl Rove. So like, you know, I've got the full spectrum. And I actually loved Karl and I loved the other, which I won't say because I don't know if she would classify herself that way. But way to the left, I loved too. And like, I learned lessons from both.

• 1:01:39Codie Sanchez?

  And I know, well, I guess kind of where I wanted to go to this is like, I think we worry so much about what other people think about us and we worry so much about what other people think or allowed to think.

• 1:01:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:01:51Codie Sanchez?

  And I was reading some of your pieces on, I believe it was Seneca. Is he the one that was like enslaved and in prison?

• 1:01:57Speaker 02

  That's Epictetus.

• 1:01:58Codie Sanchez?

  And I always call it Epictetus, but it's Epitetus.

• 1:02:00Speaker 02

  He's dead, he doesn't care.

• 1:02:03Codie Sanchez?

  Anyway, I would be curious, your take on like, you have so much from so many grades on what do you do when you feel like there are haters or people that don't like you?

• 1:02:12Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, the haters existed in the ancient world. I mean, Seneca, who you were talking about, is, is not just a controversial political figure. It's not just a wealthy guy who has sort of, you know, people who don't like him for that reason. He's also Rome's greatest playwright at that time. So he would have written things and people would have said, that sucks, you know, like, I hate this. So, so like they, they, they got it from all angles. Marcus Verdius is the emperor of Rome. Like there are statues of him, like people who are saying you're the greatest, like literally worshiping him as a god. And then there are people who are trying to kill him. And so like, this is a timeless thing, right?

• 1:02:54Speaker 02

  He says in, in meditations that for some reason, even though we all love ourselves more than other people, we care about other people's opinions more than our own. And one of the things I try to remind myself, a couple of things, I go, number one, is it possible for everyone to like you? Like, is it possible that you could publish a book that 100% of the people think is good and appreciate? It's like, no, definitely not, right? Like, um, it's a, it's a percentage, even, even a good percentage, there is still going to be a percentage of people that don't like it. And actually, the more successful you are, the bigger in raw terms, that percentage will amount to.

• 1:03:35Speaker 02

  So, uh, I've been very fortunate, my books have sold millions of copies, which I take to mean there are millions of people who don't like me. Like, not just millions of people who saw the stuff and then decide, like, I would argue more people saw it and decided not to buy it than saw it and decided to buy it. And then of the 10 million People that have bought one of the books, I can't have a hundred percent satisfaction guaranteed, right? So let's say 10% of people didn't like it. That's a million people. That's a major city in the United States that doesn't like me.

• 1:04:08Codie Sanchez?

  It's anti riot signs.

• 1:04:09Speaker 02

  But like, when you can do that math and you're like, okay, when I get a shitty email, or I see a comment, or a review in a newspaper is bad, what you're able to do is say to yourself, this is one of those people. Like, this person was statistically guaranteed to exist. There's no escaping it. Why am I surprised that I encountered one of them? Right? Like, in fact, they are the tip of a larger iceberg that I'm not seeing, so let's leave it there. The other thing I try to tell myself is like, who is this person to tell me how to do what I'm doing? Like, I remember at one point this thought occurred to me. I was like, these people don't work hard enough for me to care about their opinion. Like, they don't know what I'm doing.

• 1:04:54Speaker 02

  They don't know what I'm trying to do. They don't know what success is to me. They don't know what I value. And also, look at what they've done. You know, why am I letting them decide whether I succeeded or failed or not? And so, when you kind of go, okay, a certain percentage of people are not going to like you. A certain number of those people aren't worth thinking about at all. And then ultimately, like, success has to be self-defined, or else it's not worth anything. That's kind of how I think about the haters thing. And then, then the other one that Marx does talk about a lot, that I think is really interesting, is he talks about like, people who want to leave like a legacy, like people who want to be remembered. And he just

• 1:05:34Speaker 02

  goes, what good is that? You know, he's like, he's like, the people in the future, I mean, just as dumb as the people who exist now. And And you won't exist, so it won't do you any good whether they like you or not. Right? Like, I think a lot of people, they spend all this time trying to create this not just success now, but this monument that endures for all time, as if that's of value. Like, it isn't. It's not only something you don't control, even if it was guaranteed. It doesn't do Marcus Aurelius any good that I'm quoting from Meditations right now. It doesn't bring him back from the dead.

• 1:06:13Codie Sanchez?

  Also, if he walked on the street, we wouldn't even recognize him.

• 1:06:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, sure.

• 1:06:16Codie Sanchez?

  So like, it's like, there's no, and he's probably one of the most pervasive.

• 1:06:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's, that's one of the most famous people who, who ever lived in their own life. And he's mostly forgotten. And if the movie Gladiator didn't exist, he'd be even more forgotten. It's like, it's just not something worth chasing.

• 1:06:35Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah, it's so good. Yeah, I, I always thought there was like a little Instagram line that I thought was funny. And it was like, you don't like me, you don't even have personality privileges. And I just giggled because I think the Gen Z gets it right sometime, you know? And a lot of these people, they say to them, I don't like you, they know nothing about you. And how many people truly know you? Truly?

• 1:06:55Speaker 02

  Well, the Stoics would also say, and this is from Epictetus, he says, if they truly knew you, they'd probably say something worse. So like, just tell yourself you got off easy. Like, they're criticizing you for something that they read, that you wrote, or that they saw you do. Imagine if they could really peek inside, they could see your deepest thoughts, and they could see what you do in private. You got off easy with this criticism, so take it and move on.

• 1:07:23Codie Sanchez?

  That's actually so good. There's also, my husband bought a little magnet that we kept in San Diego, and on it was a line from Marcus Aurelius, but it was something like, like, when you step outside your door, expect people to be terrible.

• 1:07:35Speaker 02

  He opens Meditations with this.

• 1:07:37Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah, well, how does that go? Do you remember?

• 1:07:38Speaker 02

  He says, you know, today, the people you will meet will be angry and jealous and dishonest and stupid and noxious. And he just goes on down the list. And that, that is true. That's what the Stoics are saying. Don't be surprised. Like, don't expect to avoid this. But the second part of this is actually a little more hopeful than people give the Stoics credit for. He goes, but don't let them implicate you in ugliness. Don't let them drag you down to their level. And he says, it doesn't change the fact that we're all made to work with each other. And, and by the way, again, if- If there is a statistical necessity or certainty that some people are those things, then you should have sympathy for those people. You go, this is their job. They, just like somebody

• 1:08:22Speaker 02

  has to pick up trash, somebody has to clean toilets, somebody, somebody has to do stuff, right? Somebody has to be that person too. And you're lucky that you're not that person and they're unlucky that they are that person. And that's, you go, okay, you're, you're the one out of a hundred that sucks. And that sucks.

• 1:08:42Codie Sanchez?

  Really important question.

• 1:08:43Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:08:45Codie Sanchez?

  Should we all really get a donkey?

• 1:08:47Speaker 02

  I think the donkeys are amazing. I actually asked Arnold Schwarzenegger that question because he has one too.

• 1:08:53Codie Sanchez?

  Get out of town.

• 1:08:54Speaker 02

  And he said, I don't know if they're the best pets, but they're like big dumb dogs.

• 1:09:00Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah, they're not smart.

• 1:09:01Speaker 02

  That take care of themselves. Well, they're very smart, but just like big, I mean dumb in that they're not as coordinated as dogs, you know? Ours can open our fence, it can open the back door to our house. Like, they're very clever. And they all, like, people think they're stubborn, but it's more like they, they just don't do anything that they don't see a reason to do.

• 1:09:25Codie Sanchez?

  Do they cuddle? Do you cuddle their dog?

• 1:09:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, they're very, they'll come up and if you have carrots and stuff, they'll, they'll nuzzle against you. We have cows on our ranch and so you need a donkey as like a livestock guarding animal. So we got one.

• 1:09:37Codie Sanchez?

  The donkey protects the cows?

• 1:09:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, they'll, they'll chase off coyotes and mountain lions and dogs and stuff.

• 1:09:43Codie Sanchez?

  Whoa.

• 1:09:44Speaker 02

  They're very, they're very, very protective. They just kind of just, they kind of hang out on the periphery of the herd and they just don't like anything messing up the vibe.

• 1:09:53Codie Sanchez?

  I like this. I knew I wanted a donkey is on my Christmas list. So now we've moved that up.

• 1:09:57Speaker 02

  Well, I'll, I'll, I'll give, if, if we have a, the problem, so we have one and then we had to get another one because they get lonely and they have a, they have a baby every 13 or so months. And then, then it's a problem of what do we do? So I usually give them, give them to people.

• 1:10:10Codie Sanchez?

  Oh my God. Put me on the giveaway list, the Ryan Holiday donkey list?

• 1:10:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:10:15Codie Sanchez?

  I would do some unhinged things for that, especially the baby donkeys. Okay, that was important. Um, the other thing, this is, I didn't even know this about you. I had such a fun, you know how you, you, you follow somebody online for a long time, you read their books and you have this parasocial relationship, right? So you're like, ah, I know what Ryan's all about. And then, uh, I went down a, just a rabbit hole of how long you have been on the internet and asked a bunch of your friends. But, um, I came across like a lot of your marketing background, which I didn't know about.

• 1:10:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:10:45Codie Sanchez?

  And, um, there was like a quote from a New York Times profile about you. By the way, the quote was amazing. I mean, the, the article was amazing.

• 1:10:52Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:10:52Codie Sanchez?

  But the line was, Ryan Holiday runs his own marketing firm, Brass Check, and has written boastfully about depraved publicity tactics he deployed on behalf of his clients. What a fucking line. I want to hear about some of these firsthand. What are these ridiculous marketing stunts you've done?

• 1:11:07Speaker 02

  Well, I, I mean, I wrote a whole book about sort of publicity stunts and.

• 1:11:11Codie Sanchez?

  Which one was that?

• 1:11:12Speaker 02

  It's called, Trust Me, I'm Lying.

• 1:11:13Codie Sanchez?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:11:14Speaker 02

  And it's about sort of media manipulation and how the, the media system can be vulnerable to, to all of these things. I mean, I opened that book with a story about a movie I was working on and it had a very small budget. And so, you know, we couldn't spend very much. So we took the relatively small, uh, bit of the budget and we bought some ads, which I then defaced. And then we took pictures of them, then we sent them around and we created this sort of backlash against a campaign that like, didn't exist really. And, you know, we got like, it was banned by the Chicago Transit Authority. Like we, we, we try, we tried to buy, you know, like ads in Chicago on all the trains.

• 1:11:57Speaker 02

  And then they rejected it, which is like what we wanted because we didn't have the money to spend on the thing. But then the media coverage around that got seen by many thousands of more people than would have ever seen the ad. So I did, I did a lot of stuff like, like that.

• 1:12:11Codie Sanchez?

  Do you do any of that anymore?

• 1:12:12Speaker 02

  Not so much anymore. I mean, every once in a while I'll do something, uh, for fun, uh, but, uh, my.

• 1:12:21Speaker 02

  Career there was fascinating and compelling. I wouldn't say it was, you know,

• 1:12:30Speaker 02

  exactly a positive contribution to society. And so I think I sort of grew out of it a little bit. Yeah. But I was really interested in like how this system worked and what the vulnerabilities were in this. And I sort of saw it as this challenge. I did a lot of stuff that was funny and interesting and provocative. But, you know, again, not, not really what I felt ultimately like I wanted to spend the rest of my life doing. What's funny, there was, there's a quote in that New York Times profile you mentioned that is not a haunted me, but some people try to throw in my face. I said, you know, she was like, maybe you're just writing about this to make money or something. And I was like, look, if you're good at marketing and you could sell anything.

• 1:13:12Speaker 02

  And I was like, especially if you don't have a conscience, right? I was like, I, I was like, you could sell cryptocurrency or this or that, or you'd sell whatever you want, right? And I was like, why would I choose this? That's what I was saying. But she sort of cut off the, the last part. So I was basically just saying like, if you're good enough and shameless enough, you could sell anything, which is why you always have to be careful about making sure your complete thought is untruncatable, right? Because the, the context of it can be stripped out of it. But my, my point was like, I just got tired. I was like, I'm, I don't want to, I don't want to spend my life selling other people shit, you know? That's just not really what I wanted to do. And so I, I just, I was like, well, what do I care about?

• 1:13:56Speaker 02

  What am I interested in? And, and ultimately like my, even my marketing business, which I kept for many years and I consulted mostly, but I just, I just thought like, I just got tired of like giving advice that nobody listened to, even though they paid me for it. And I just thought, oh, I, I know who will take my advice, me. So I just started to make my own things. And, and I think ultimately, if you have like real marketing jobs, that's what you should.

• 1:14:27Speaker 02

  Eventually evolve towards is your own stuff.

• 1:14:29Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah, I like on accident got invited by a friend who was the one getting the award to this kind of famous advertising association event in New York. And I went because I was in town and I adore her and she needed a buddy. And so I went with her and it was the most fascinating night, actually, because it's an advertising event, right? And yet, if you were to hear the speeches.

• 1:14:58Speaker 02

  Were they bad?

• 1:14:59Codie Sanchez?

  Well, no, no, they're actually beautiful and the videos are beautiful. But it was like, this is the most important room in the world with the people who are changing the world every day. And I'm like, am I in the cancer wing? Like, wait a second, like, I feel like I'm in the wrong area. And so it was fascinating because person after person was talking about how advertising and marketing is like the cornerstone of humanity. And like, you could argue with that one way or the other. But what I kind of did like about it is like, whatever you're going to do.

• 1:15:28Speaker 02

  Should be good at it.

• 1:15:29Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah, and you should maybe feel that way about it.

• 1:15:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, although I remember when I was in American Pro, every year I would go to this thing in New York called Ad Week, which is this like series of conferences and galas and award shows like that. And I remember the first time I went, you know, I was probably 20, 21. And I'm like the kid there. I'm the only one not in a suit. You know, the only one not working at some big company with a huge budget. And then I went the next year, sort of same thing the next year. And I always felt like an outsider. And I it and I remember it occurring to me like the third or fourth year, if I keep coming to this, I'm gonna be a guy in a suit. Like, you can't do, you can't, you become like the people you spend time with, right? And actually, Epictetus has this line, he says, if you live with a lame man, you will learn how to limp.

• 1:16:16Speaker 02

  And and I just realized like, oh, this is, this is an interesting period in my life and I'm learning a lot and I'm making good money and it's exciting and interesting. But like, there is a point of no return that I am approaching and I have to get out soon or I have to commit to this thing. And so That was part of the reason that I ultimately, you know, sort of made the leap, which seemed crazy at the time, like, well, you're the director of marketing and publicly trade company, you're gonna go write a book, like, you don't even, you don't even have a book deal for, you're just gonna go write a book, like, what's wrong with you, you know? But I, I just knew that wasn't who I wanted to be and what I wanted to do.

• 1:16:55Speaker 02

  And again, to go to the idea of procrastination, everyone says, at some point, I'm gonna do it. And you're not, you know, and the longer you don't do it, the more and more likely it is that you will never do it, because you've actually sent over and over again, who you actually are, which is the person you're currently being, not the person you think you could be.

• 1:17:20Codie Sanchez?

  It's, it's so true. I, we call it the corner office phenomenon. And I'm like, basically, I, I've found this happens a lot with people that were in corporate spaces. It happened with me. I remember I had a moment like you, where I literally, I looked down the hall at the guy who was in the corner office, who had the job that I would have if one day I achieved the highest of the heights in my profession. And I was like, oh, my fucking god, no. You know, he looks miserable, he had multiple wives, there were lots of cars in the garage, I don't care about garages, he was working nonstop, he wasn't healthy, vitamin D deprived, all of the things. And I think often, we can just look at that and go, oh, when, when I'm there, I'm not gonna be like that. It'll be different when I'm there.

• 1:18:00Codie Sanchez?

  But if instead, you can really look down the hall and go, like, is, if I had lived that man's life, I would probably be that man. And so, am I sure that that's what I want? If I can look into the future and see, is that the kind of suit that I want to wear?

• 1:18:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, the, the system is shaping you every day that you are in it, and you are internalizing its values, and its personality, and its identity, and the idea that like, yeah, that you're gonna go along to get along for 40 years, and then be a visionary, rule-breaking leader, is extremely unlikely. Like, you, you just followed the rules for 40 years to get this thing, that you're now terrified of losing, you're actually gonna be less courageous, more risk averse than you thought you would be. Like, you're like, if I was in charge, it would be different. And it's like, no, it's gonna be exactly the same, because it was shaping you

• 1:18:59Speaker 02

  as you were in it.

• 1:19:01Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah. So do you think that humans are contagious?

• 1:19:05Speaker 02

  I think examples are contagious. You know, I think culture is contagious, values are contagious. Sure.

• 1:19:11Codie Sanchez?

  Like, I think we named the company Contourant Thinking, obviously. And to your point, I kind of labored over that. One, it's a terrible name. There's so many vowels and it's like A's and I's and I don't know where they're located. Nobody can spell it. But maybe more important than that, I remember reading Letters to Young Contraarians back in the day. And I always really liked that book. It's a kind of a ridiculous, short, cute book in some ways. But I liked the idea of like, you know, if you do not question things, then you will just assume everybody else's fate. You have to be careful to not be a contrarian for contrarian's sake. But like, at a base level, we do just kind of move along to get along, right? And so this pushback is hard. And with your books, I would say, you know, most of the stuff that you've created, and you do it now today, like, you'll post something about something politically, you might think.

• 1:19:56Codie Sanchez?

  And a lot of people hate it and a lot of people love it. And like, I sometimes think maybe that's like inoculation against caring. But like, how do you inoculate yourself against becoming somebody else's representation of you?

• 1:20:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's a good question. I mean, I think, do you know what audience capture is?

• 1:20:15Codie Sanchez?

  No.

• 1:20:15Speaker 02

  I think we work really hard as a creator, an artist, or writer, whatever, to build an audience. And then you think you have the audience, but actually the audience has you. Because now you're afraid of losing it, right? You're like, oh, when I talk about this, people don't like it. Or, you know, when I, when I wrote about this, like, Substack subscriptions went down, or, you know, I got a lot of angry emails. And, okay, so now what you've said is that you have a boss, right? Like, I, I became a writer and a creator to make what I wanted to make, not to make what you want me to make for you, right?

• 1:20:55Speaker 02

  And so that, that's something I just think a lot about. Like, is this something that I think is important? Is it interesting to me? And then also, I try to think, like, what are my obligations? I have like a little note card on my desk. And it just says, like, are you being a good steward of Stoicism? And I think about that because- You know, I didn't invent this philosophy. It's a tradition that that stretches back 25 centuries. I just happen to be publicly associated with it and it's done me a lot of good. But if I'm only going to use it to tell people what they want to hear or tell people the easy, obvious stuff, then I'm then I'm exploiting it as opposed to contributing to it.

• 1:21:40Speaker 02

  And so I think there's a fine line, of course. Like, it's not about a giant middle finger to the audience all the time. That's not right, but you have to you have to do and say

• 1:21:53Speaker 02

  what you think is true and important. Because, by the way, nobody was begging for me to talk about this 15 years ago when I started, right? If I if I was if I asked for approval, I wouldn't have had the support to get going, right? So like, you have to trust that that instinct.

• 1:22:15Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah, yeah, it's a good point. I think it's a it's a beautiful line because you get you can become so selfish sometimes, I think, as a creator or as somebody with an audience or as somebody successful, because you can really surround yourself with sycophants.

• 1:22:27Speaker 02

  Totally.

• 1:22:27Codie Sanchez?

  You know, and and then you can create this weird world in which everything actually caters to you.

• 1:22:32Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:22:32Codie Sanchez?

  Simultaneously, I think most people don't end up there. Maybe really successful people do. I think that's actually less normal. And it seems like most people let other people become the architects of the houses that they live in.

• 1:22:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, and it's also it's just more information and feedback than a human could possibly deal with. You know, like, like, the Daily Stoic email goes out to a million people every day. Like, even if 0.01% of them liked or didn't like what I said that day, that's I can't I have to have a boundary that that doesn't get in, you know?

• 1:23:05Codie Sanchez?

  Do you ever like read the really bad ones out loud, like the Hollywood actors do sometimes?

• 1:23:09Speaker 02

  Anytime I I

• 1:23:12Speaker 02

  Come across, I go, why did I subject myself to this? This doesn't make me feel good. It doesn't make me feel bad. It just makes me confused, you know? Like, it's like, I, you know what it is? It's like, you gotta have a compass and you gotta keep magnets away from the compass because it fucks with it, right? And this is actually something Seneca talks about. He says, you know, you gotta know the path that you're on. And he says, not be distracted by the paths that crisscross yours or the footsteps from those who are hopelessly lost. And it's like, I'm doing what I'm trying to do. You might think you know what I'm trying to do, or you might think you know what I should do, but you don't. And conversely, other people doing their own thing, whether they're creators or writers

• 1:23:57Speaker 02

  or philosophers, they're, they're doing their own thing. And if I take my eye off my paper to look at theirs, I'm going to get myself into trouble. And so I, I try to keep kind of a narrow focus where like, this is what I'm doing. This is what I care about. And that's, that's enough.

• 1:24:16Codie Sanchez?

  That's beautiful. Well, Ryan Holiday, I love your books. I've read ego is the enemy and the obstacle is the way and the daily stoic. And now wisdom takes work. And now I have about 42 other books of yours read, but those are some of my favorite. And truly, you know, there are a couple of authors that like Robert Greene. I was very nervous when I had him on the podcast.

• 1:24:35Speaker 02

  He's the best.

• 1:24:35Codie Sanchez?

  He's amazing and he's just as good in real life. And even after a stroke, you know, I was like, this man's horsepower is insane. But I was just such a fan of the way his brain worked. And I think it's the same with you. Like, you know, reading these books, these cannot be easy to put together, to take these complex ideas and make them simple. And so, you know, if you're watching, they're really, really worth a read, which is not always true for every book today.

• 1:24:58Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 1:24:58Codie Sanchez?

  And so, well, thank you for writing them. Thank you for spending some time here with us.

• 1:25:01Speaker 02

  Thanks for having me.

• 1:25:08Speaker 00

  At Edward Jones, we believe rich is about taking care of what gives your life meaning. That's why your financial advisor personalizes your plan to help you preserve your progress and create something that lasts. Let's find your rich. Edward Jones. Member SIPC.