Maria Semple: “Go Gentle” | Oprah’s Book Club

BUY THE BOOK: ⁠ https://amzn.to/4x6DsQZ https://amzn.to/4x6DsQZ⁠ https://amzn.to/4x6DsQZ To find all of the Oprah’s Book Club selections and 30 of Oprah’s most memorable reads, visit: ⁠http://www.amazon.com/obc⁠ http://www.amazon.com/obc This year marks the 30th Anniversary of Oprah’s Book Club and we are celebrating with her 122nd selection: Go Gentle by International bestselling novelist Maria Semple. Her other books include Today Will Be Different, Where’d You Go, Bernadette and This One is Mine. Go Gentle follows the whimsical life of Adora Hazzard, a Stoic Philosopher and solo middle-aged mother who is raising her teenage daughter Viv on New York’s Upper West side. Adora believes that fulfillment and happiness come from loving life as it is and letting go of what is beyond one’s control. Her well-ordered life is upended when she meets a mysterious, handsome stranger at the ballet. Romance, black market art deals and international intrigue ensue. Maria Semple’s signature wit, humor and the unexpected plot twists are the reason this gripping page turner is Oprah’s Book Club selection for April 2026. Oprah is joined by listeners from across the country who have read the book who have questions for Maria Semple. Chapters: 00:00:00 - Welcome Maria Semple, author of ‘Go Gentle’ 00:02:45 - What is stoicism? 00:05:30 - Creating the main character Adora 00:08:03 - Many genres woven into the book 00:09:30 - Events from Maria’s life 00:11:30 - How Maria finds her characters 00:14:00 - The idea of the coven 00:16:20 - Was the coven a plan B? 00:18:40 - The goal is to love yourself 00:19:40 - Maria on writing TV comedy to fiction 00:22:40 - Learning to trust her voice 00:23:40 - Do you need a guiding philosophy to survive? 00:25:00 - How Maria practices stoicism 00:27:20 - Theme: Love whatever shows up 00:29:45 - Adora struggles with her weight 00:32:00 - Which version of Adora did Maria start with? 00:34:35 - Mother/daughter tension 00:36:00 - Adora’s blindspot 00:37:50 - Stoicism and motherhood 00:40:30 - Oprah’s favorite quotes 00:44:30 - What Maria hopes readers take away Follow Oprah Winfrey on Social: https://www.instagram.com/oprahpodcast/ https://www.facebook.com/oprahwinfrey/ Listen to the full podcast: https://open.spotify.com/show/0tEVrfNp92a7lbjDe6GMLI https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-oprah-podcast/id1782960381

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  I will tell you that it really felt like an act of madness as I was writing this book. I want to write all about philosophy. I want to make this huge mystery thriller. There was this whole section about internalized misogyny. I had this big crazy ending. And plus, it's a romance. As I was writing it, I never told anybody about it.

• 0:18Oprah Winfrey?

  People would do this.

• 0:19Speaker 00

  Yeah, exactly. But I kind of knew that I could make it all work.

• 0:25Oprah Winfrey?

  Everybody, hi. I'm so pleased to welcome you to the Oprah Podcast. I'm in New York City, home to some of the oldest, coziest, and greatest bookstores in the country. Hope you check one out the next time you're here. This year, we're celebrating the 30th anniversary of my book club, the Oprah Book Club, something I'm so proud of because books have been just a bomb to me over the years, a comfort and a joy since I was a little girl. And there's nothing I enjoy more than reading a good book. Even better, when I'm sitting by a fireplace or under a tree. Oh, my goodness. So when I started the book club, I never could have dreamed that I'd get to my 122nd pick with so many of you readers along for the ride, who also find joy in reading

• 1:10Oprah Winfrey?

  as much as I do. I'm honored to host one of the largest and longest-running book clubs in the country, and that's entirely thanks to all of you. I appreciate you so much. The author of my 122nd pick, Go Gentle, is a writer who can create a page turner, y'all, mixed with painful life challenges and hysterical, laugh-out-loud comedy. Yes, her books have sold millions of copies. Welcome, Maria Semple. Hello.

• 1:42Speaker 00

  Hello. Thank you.

• 1:44Oprah Winfrey?

  Maria Semple is the New York Times mega bestselling author of "Today Will Be Different," "This One Is Mine," and "Where'd You Go, Bernadette," which became a movie in 2019 starring Cate Blanchett. Before becoming a novelist, Maria wrote for iconic television comedies like "Saturday Night Live," "Arrested Development," and "Mad About You." Her fourth novel, "Go Gentle," follows the main character Adora, a divorced, single mother living in the Big Apple whose cheerful determination to live a life of the mind is turned upside down by her heart. It's been 10 years since your last novel.

• 2:21Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 2:21Oprah Winfrey?

  We've been waiting. Your devoted readers have been patiently waiting. Tell us about writing this.

• 2:29Speaker 00

  So, Go Gentle, I'd actually made many attempts at this book while I lived in Seattle. And I had gotten really into Stoicism about 10 years ago. And I knew that I wanted my protagonist to be a Stoic. And so I started writing from the point of view of the Stoic, but I was writing her kind of emotionally shut down.

• 2:53Oprah Winfrey?

  Stoicism as a philosophy, because I wasn't even familiar with Stoicism until I read this book, and then I went and got other books about Stoicism.

• 3:01Speaker 00

  Oh, that's right. So, so, so I'll tell you a little bit about Stoicism and tell the people about Stoicism, because it's maybe not as well-known as I think, because it's such a big part of my life. But Stoicism is a philosophy, and the Stoics were ancient Greeks. And I think of them as kind of the OGs of the self-help movement. From 300 B.C., they thought that you could apply reason to achieve happiness. And the way you did it was by differentiating between what was within your control and what's outside of your control. And you put all of your energy only to what's within your control, and they call that virtue. And I think of it as kind of personal character.

• 3:46Speaker 00

  And the rest of it, you just cheerfully throw over to fate. And it sounds simple, but it's certainly easier said than done, and it takes practice. But it is, you then get on a path to achieve happiness.

• 3:59Oprah Winfrey?

  Okay, so you, Maria Semple, became a Stoic.

• 4:03Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 4:04Oprah Winfrey?

  Meaning, taking on this philosophy of living.

• 4:07Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 4:07Oprah Winfrey?

  And you wanted to create a character who was also a Stoic.

• 4:12Speaker 00

  Exactly. So, so I really was so excited about Stoicism that I wanted to, I thought I really wanted to get inside that character. And so, at first, when I wrote it, I, I was writing the character as kind of, like I was saying, emotionally shut down, a little grim.

• 4:30Oprah Winfrey?

  Right.

• 4:31Speaker 00

  And perhaps that reflected where I was at the time of my life, but I kept kind of trying to write from this point of view.

• 4:37Oprah Winfrey?

  Because at the time of your life... If you were going through divorce.

• 4:40Speaker 00

  Exactly, yes, I was, yeah, just like, and ending a long-term relationship. And, and this was just the voice that I was writing in. But I, I kept writing, maybe, but when I get to 50 pages, the kind of souffle would collapse, so to speak, because the voice just wasn't fun to write, it wasn't fun to read. And so I abandoned the book, I just put it away. And then my relationship ended and I moved to New York City. And I started life fresh in the city. I was totally dazzled by New York and kind of was surprised at how much I love my new life here. I kept thinking, God, I, there are so many cool things about that book that I really want to get back to and I wish I could figure it out.

• 5:24Speaker 00

  And when it was time to start writing, it occurred to me, why does a stoic have to be so grim and unfeeling? What if I make her, what if I make my character like a stoic sage? And make her just really happy? And so I changed her name, I changed her city, I changed her attitude. And then the book just kind of broke open for me, that this was this woman who had kind of figured out, cracked the code to happiness.

• 5:52Oprah Winfrey?

  But what I think is so amazing about it, really profound, is that you're telling this fictional story. Because in the beginning, when she is like teaching stoicism to the boys.

• 6:02Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 6:02Oprah Winfrey?

  And tutoring the boys, I'm like, is this a real thing? So then I go and look up the books that she's teaching from and I realize, it is a real thing.

• 6:09Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's totally a real thing.

• 6:11Oprah Winfrey?

  That you're able to incorporate this philosophy into a novel about a fictional character.

• 6:17Speaker 00

  Yes, and it was actually really hard to do that, again, for a long time, I think in the, the early stages of the book that weren't working out. I really felt like I, I had to explain what it was and it just was kind of dreary and that's not why you read a novel, to have someone explain philosophy to you.

• 6:32Oprah Winfrey?

  The fact that she is living it, teaching it, being it, makes it so accessible.

• 6:38Speaker 00

  That's right.

• 6:38Oprah Winfrey?

  Let's talk about the main character, Adora.

• 6:41Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 6:41Oprah Winfrey?

  Who is tutoring these two boys.

• 6:42Speaker 00

  That's right. Okay, so Adora is a single divorced woman, the mother of a teenage daughter, who lives in New York City.

• 6:51Oprah Winfrey?

  Okay, so far, you.

• 6:52Speaker 00

  Yes, exactly, so far, me. And she is a philosopher and her job is to teach ethics to these tween.

• 7:03Speaker 00

  Twin boys of a old-money New York family.

• 7:06Oprah Winfrey?

  Right.

• 7:07Speaker 00

  And she's figured out that the way to be happy is to rid herself of all desire. That desire is the source of suffering, which is a stoic thing, it's a Buddhist thing, it's something that, you know, you hear about a lot. And so when we first meet Adora, she's really living, uh, living the philosophy quite swimmingly.

• 7:31Oprah Winfrey?

  Yes, of this quote from, she's, "He who wants nothing is the richest man in the world." I said, paraphrasing Seneca, "The less you want, the happier you'll be."

• 7:41Speaker 00

  Exactly.

• 7:42Oprah Winfrey?

  She's living out that philosophy.

• 7:43Speaker 00

  She really is, and so she's very contented with her life. And it's all going quite well until she meets a handsome stranger at the ballet.

• 7:51Oprah Winfrey?

  Ballet.

• 7:53Speaker 00

  And then she maybe realizes that the desire has not entirely been snuffed out inside of her.

• 8:00Oprah Winfrey?

  And so I found this to have moments of being like a thriller and like a mystery and all of it combined. You are such a profoundly good, strong, brilliant writer.

• 8:12Speaker 00

  Well, thank you. I, you know, that's a huge compliment. And I will tell you that it really felt like an act of madness as I was writing this book. Because I was like, I want to write all about philosophy. I want to make this huge mystery thriller. I knew there was this whole section about, you know, internalized misogyny and television writing that I wanted to get to. And, and I had this big crazy ending and I, and plus, it's a romance. And I just thought, oh, my God, I, how am I going to make this work? And so I, as I was writing it, I never told anybody about it. Because I was just worried if I started to explain it, people would kind of start.

• 8:50Oprah Winfrey?

  People would do this.

• 8:51Speaker 00

  Yeah, exactly. And then I would just like lose all enthusiasm.

• 8:54Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 8:54Speaker 00

  But I kind of knew that I could make it all work.

• 8:57Oprah Winfrey?

  And you did.

• 8:58Speaker 00

  Thank you.

• 8:58Oprah Winfrey?

  You did. And I, I read that you were inspired to, to write about what you called the terrible secret of your life.

• 9:06Speaker 00

  This was something that was really, um, Challenging to write, but it was really fun, is that in the middle of the book, we kind of flashback to Adora's past.

• 9:17Oprah Winfrey?

  Yes.

• 9:18Speaker 00

  And she was a comedy writer, as I was once a comedy writer, and something happens to her.

• 9:25Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 9:26Speaker 00

  Which is a workplace kind of sexual assault.

• 9:29Oprah Winfrey?

  Yes.

• 9:29Speaker 00

  And, and that was, it's kind of a pastiche of two different things that happened to me when I was a TV writer, which I really exaggerated for effect. But they were sexual assaults, even though I didn't even really recognize it as such at the time, and...

• 9:47Oprah Winfrey?

  That actually happened to you.

• 9:48Speaker 00

  Yes, that happened to me.

• 9:49Oprah Winfrey?

  But you exaggerated it in the book.

• 9:51Speaker 00

  Yes, yes, and kind of combined them.

• 9:53Oprah Winfrey?

  Yes.

• 9:54Speaker 00

  And, and in my case, one of them made me kind of quit my job, and the other one got me fired from my job. And I didn't tell anybody about it, I didn't tell friends, it was just too shameful, you know? I kind of like fully shut it out. I just thought, I, I don't think I...

• 10:13Oprah Winfrey?

  Because at the time, and in a different time and age, we didn't even think about...

• 10:19Speaker 00

  There weren't words for it.

• 10:20Oprah Winfrey?

  There weren't words for it.

• 10:21Speaker 00

  Right.

• 10:21Oprah Winfrey?

  You didn't know what to call it, and it happened, and you just keep going.

• 10:25Speaker 00

  And you keep going, and that's what it was.

• 10:26Oprah Winfrey?

  You keep going, yeah.

• 10:27Speaker 00

  And then when Me Too happened, it just really blew everything open.

• 10:31Oprah Winfrey?

  That's right.

• 10:31Speaker 00

  Because suddenly there's words for it.

• 10:33Oprah Winfrey?

  That's right.

• 10:33Speaker 00

  And there's a whole different framework to look at it.

• 10:36Oprah Winfrey?

  And also, you were like, that happened to you too? I thought I was the only one.

• 10:39Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 10:39Oprah Winfrey?

  I thought I was the one that was carrying that, yes.

• 10:41Speaker 00

  That's right. And to me, what I went through at the time was that I felt really kind of guilty for being part of the system, which, which was just to kind of be on these shows, and, and I, I feel like comedy at the time, really, there was so much misogyny in it, and I didn't... I can't say that it made me feel really bad about myself and I thought there was anything wrong with it. Like, I thought that was comedy. I thought that's what you had to do to be a comedy writer. I was often the only woman on the writing staff or one of two. And so, I just kind of went along with it. And so, I felt really guilty for being part of that,

• 11:24Speaker 00

  but also I felt really angry about what had happened to me. And so, this combination of like guilt and rage.

• 11:31Oprah Winfrey?

  All of that gets.

• 11:32Speaker 00

  Yeah. I thought like, wow, that's something to write about.

• 11:35Oprah Winfrey?

  It finds its way in Go Gentle. So, the story features a lot of what I would call richly-defined supporting characters.

• 11:44Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 11:45Oprah Winfrey?

  With complex backstories. So, how do these characters come to you? Do you just invent them? Do they visit you? I've heard different authors say different things.

• 11:56Speaker 00

  So, I usually start with my protagonist. You know, that's always where I start. And I think about the journey that I want to put her on and the character arc that I want to put her on. And from there, I kind of build the world around her.

• 12:09Oprah Winfrey?

  But you don't know the full arc?

• 12:11Speaker 00

  No, I kind of know emotionally where I want her to land. And I think you have to in order to work backwards. But in terms of the plot machinations to get there, I don't know that yet. And so, in terms of where I want her to land, I then start kind of filling her world with characters who, to me, have to earn their keep. You know, they have to come into conflict with her, they have to make her life miserable, they have to kind of go the distance of the novel. I have to just really make sure it's not just a funny person who appears on page 10 and disappears. Like, how am I really going to work them into the fabric of the entire novel? And I normally don't start writing a character

• 12:55Speaker 00

  until I come up with like an emotional truth or a comic premise. And usually, the emotional truth is based on something about me, like my emotional truth. And it's often nothing I'm particularly proud of, kind of even better, you know?

• 13:11Oprah Winfrey?

  So, what was it for Adora? What was the emotional truth for Adora?

• 13:15Speaker 00

  Well, the emo-

• 13:15Oprah Winfrey?

  In this in Go Gentle?

• 13:17Speaker 00

  Okay, in Go Gentle, Adora's emotional truth is that it's a woman who has always struggled with desire, that when she's young, she's just burning with desire, but but she has like bad values and she's chasing these bad values that get her into so much trouble. And so then she kind of maybe overcorrects and turns off all the desire.

• 13:39Oprah Winfrey?

  With the Stoicism.

• 13:40Speaker 00

  With the Stoicism. And so to me, it's like this like intellectual and wonderful woman who really is has it figured out, but the the kind of deal with the devil is that she has decided she doesn't want anything in her life.

• 13:55Oprah Winfrey?

  No more desire.

• 13:55Speaker 00

  And to me, that seemed like kind of funny, but then you bring desire into her life and then what does what does she do with that? And that seemed like a comic premise to me.

• 14:04Oprah Winfrey?

  Time for a quick break. When we come back, Oprah Book Club readers share their favorite moments from Go Gentle.

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• 14:41Oprah Winfrey?

  Welcome back to the Oprah Podcast. I'm talking today with bestselling author Maria Simple about her latest book, Go Gentle. It's a laugh-out-loud journey that every generation will connect to. Well, I know women are going to love this idea of the coven, right?

• 14:56Speaker 00

  Oh, yes.

• 14:57Oprah Winfrey?

  It's a living arrangement of all single women in their 50s that Adora is trying to create in her apartment building. And on page 31, she says, "We want women like us, women who present as scary but have good hearts, women who know how to get shit done, women who, despite our age, share a dirty little secret. We're just getting started." I just love that. Explain the idea of the coven.

• 15:26Speaker 00

  Well, that really was kind of a narrative solution where I needed in the beginning for Adora to be really happy being single, like genuinely happy. And I felt like if I just had her sit there and say, "I'm so happy being single. I love being single," maybe we wouldn't believe her. She would, it would be maybe protesting too much. So I thought, how do I put that into action with just her full imagination and energy and ingenuity? And so she kind of creates this thing on the floor of her building where all of her friends kind of move in.

• 16:01Oprah Winfrey?

  I love this.

• 16:02Speaker 00

  And, and the idea, so they pool their resources. They kind of share, you know, subscriptions to the ballet and Netflix accounts.

• 16:09Oprah Winfrey?

  Oh, and the celery.

• 16:10Speaker 00

  Exactly.

• 16:11Oprah Winfrey?

  And going shopping.

• 16:12Speaker 00

  And they go shopping and...

• 16:13Oprah Winfrey?

  Because when you're single, you don't need the entire loaf of bread. You only need half. And I only need three pieces this week, and I can have a half a stalk of celery.

• 16:22Speaker 00

  Exactly.

• 16:23Oprah Winfrey?

  That whole thing, yes.

• 16:24Speaker 00

  And so, and so she's, she's very happy. With everything about The Covenant really like captures her imagination. And so I felt like this was a really good way to dramatize how, how a single woman would be happy. And, and I will say, I didn't invent it. My women friends and I are constantly talking about it, and you're always reading these articles. I feel like The New York Times, they just come fast and furious, these articles about women making compounds, you know, where they want to live together for themselves.

• 16:53Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah. Well, we gave some members of our book club an advanced copy of Go Gentle, and they now have questions for you. So who's joining us from Texas? Jay? Hey, how are you?

• 17:05Speaker 04

  Hi, I'm doing great. Thank you so much.

• 17:08Oprah Winfrey?

  Thank you. You read the book?

• 17:10Speaker 04

  I devoured that book. I must have torn through it in a day and a half, max.

• 17:15Oprah Winfrey?

  Okay, that's good. Good timing.

• 17:17Speaker 04

  It was so good. So first of all, I do need to say, my name is Jay Collier. I am from Houston, Texas, and I have been an Oprah's Book Club fan since 99.

• 17:25Oprah Winfrey?

  Wow, thank you.

• 17:27Speaker 04

  OG. Thank you for helping us weed through all of the, all of the bestsellers to find the books that actually stay with you and change the way you see the world. This was one for me. First of all, it was uproariously funny, so witty, the dialogue, the pace. I just, that's why I said I devoured the book. In fact, this is the first time I ever thought there was a world where philosophy was maybe sexy. I don't know.

• 17:53Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah, all right.

• 17:55Speaker 04

  Or fodder for like, good first date banter. Much like what Oprah said earlier, I started wanting to read the works. So, thank you for giving me more perspective on the world in that way. But I do have a question for you. So, much like what was just discussed, I love the idea of the coven. I love the idea that these women would have a community that was beautiful and they could take into their golden years and they wouldn't really need to worry about being tied to someone in order to do that. But, it felt like, pretty quickly, Adora was enamored with and enchanted by the idea of being, you know, in a romantic relationship and seeing, when she meets this charming male

• 18:38Speaker 04

  character, who they could be to one another. And I guess my question for you, or Adora through you, would be, were you trying to tell us that the idea of moving into your golden years with a community of women and friends is really just a Plan B in kind of settling?

• 18:56Oprah Winfrey?

  Ooh, good question.

• 18:58Speaker 04

  And in truth, we all just want to love and be loved romantically, no matter what age?

• 19:03Speaker 00

  That's a very good question.

• 19:04Oprah Winfrey?

  Good question, good question, Jay.

• 19:06Speaker 00

  I, I don't think it's a Plan B, I think it's a Plan A. And, and I, this, things happens to Adora and she finds love, but I, I think that what, first of all, the coven is still going strong on the seventh floor, so the coven still exists in the world of the book, it's happening. And, I think it's always there for her. And, I will say, I, I, who knows if this thing with Digby will work out or not, but I think that in the, in the course of the book, Adora, I think, has learned to love herself in a way where she doesn't really need a man, you know? And I, and I think that that's really what I was, I was, where I was hoping that she, to leave her.

• 19:50Oprah Winfrey?

  Land it, yeah, yeah.

• 19:51Speaker 00

  Yeah, exactly, that it's not like, oh, this is the solution to all my problems. Like, I actually think the coven is the solution to her problems. And, I don't mean to sell out the coven, I know it's kind of a, a problem with the book, but I, I personally love the coven. And I will say, on the floor of my building, two apartments are coming up for sale, and there's a long list of my friends who now will hear about it for the first time, and will say, wait, I need to be in those apartments. So, the coven will probably become a reality.

• 20:19Oprah Winfrey?

  Jay, thanks so much. And you're right, there's so much laughter, right? There's so much humor in the book.

• 20:25Speaker 00

  So funny.

• 20:26Oprah Winfrey?

  That's because we're the comedy writer here. A comedy writer who became a fiction writer. Was that a hard transition?

• 20:33Speaker 00

  It wasn't that hard because while I was writing for TV, even though I had a 20-year career, worked on a lot of shows and was always kind of getting hired, I never felt like I was that great at the job. I was good at story, but I was never really good at jokes. And there always felt like there was something wrong with me as a comedy writer. I felt like I was kind of wearing my shoes on the wrong feet or something. And I certainly never watched TV. I wouldn't go home and watch TV. I never watched it. Instead, I would go home and read books. I was an English major in college. I still self-identify as an English major. And that's really what I loved was books. And so, even though TV taught me some really amazing things

• 21:18Speaker 00

  and I loved my time there in many ways, and they really teach you story. In TV, that's your job, is to just be breaking story and working on scenes. And I think I really kind of developed a story muscle while I was working in TV. It wasn't until I met a novelist, whose books I really liked, and I talked to him all about how cool it was that he was writing books and what was it like, that was so special. And he said to me, "Why don't you write a novel, if you like them so much?" And I just thought that novels were for other people to write. They were for kind of more serious or dignified people to write. That there was like no access for me to become a fiction writer.

• 22:02Oprah Winfrey?

  You, like I, have writers on this pedestal.

• 22:06Speaker 00

  Totally on the pedestal.

• 22:07Oprah Winfrey?

  On the pedestal.

• 22:08Speaker 00

  Yes, and I'd never written a word of prose in my life. And he said to me, "Novels are just your personality and your interests. And you have a good personality and you have a lot of interests, and I would read your novel." And that's really all it took for me, was kind of getting permission from a relative stranger. To even try being a novelist. And so I just set out, I bought a book on.

• 22:35Oprah Winfrey?

  A stranger who had done it.

• 22:36Speaker 00

  Who had done it, yes, who had done it. And it just gave me that encouragement. And so I bought a book on fiction writing and kind of learned how to do that. And I just really was concerned that I would be a bad writer, you know, and that I didn't know that I could be a good writer. And so I just kind of did, sentence by sentence. And in my first novel, this one is mine, there are no similes or metaphors because I didn't trust myself not to just write bad similes and metaphors. And so, but now Go Gentle is my fourth book, and I'm a little more confident about similes and metaphors.

• 23:10Oprah Winfrey?

  Well, and also because you had such success with the Bernadette book. Yes, yes, yeah, yeah. So, and success builds your own sense of confidence and your ability to do it. Once other readers respond.

• 23:24Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 23:24Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah, that lets you know you're on the right track.

• 23:27Speaker 00

  That's right, that you've got something. And it was really like my voice, I think, that I learned to kind of trust my voice. And I think that's really what my career has been, is just kind of leaning in deeper and deeper to my voice and just trusting that if I like it, they'll like it. And not trying to make it any more complicated than that.

• 23:46Oprah Winfrey?

  Let's take a short break. When we return, one of our readers asked Maria if Stoicism can provide the wisdom to help her manage her love life and career. That's next. Hi, listeners. Welcome back to my delightful conversation with bestselling author Maria Semple. You all know her hugely popular books. Her new novel, Go Gentle, is my latest book club selection. And we're talking to our readers who share what they learned from reading it. Well, Annie, who lives in New York, is joining us. You have a question about Stoicism too. Hi, Annie, hi.

• 24:18Speaker 05

  Hi, hi, Oprah, hi, Maria. Thank you so much for having me. I'm honored to be here. Maria, I absolutely loved the book. Similarly, I devoured the book in about a day and a half. I just couldn't read it fast enough. I actually recently turned 30, so I'm a few years behind Adora. But like her, I'm single and navigating, living in New York City. And as a single woman. I've realized that it's really important to have a philosophy or a mantra to keep you grounded. For me, mine is really simple. It's that everything happens for a reason and nothing happens by mistake. And this helps me navigate the highs and the lows of living in a city that can sometimes chew you up and spit you out, which is a big reason why we love New York, but it can be tough. So I actually have two questions for you.

• 25:01Speaker 05

  My first question is that you wrote Adora, as you mentioned previously, to have Stoicism as her anchor. Was that intended to show how having a guiding philosophy can help a woman survive and thrive in a challenging and fast-paced environment like New York? And also, do you see Stoicism as a universal tool that anyone can use to stay centered while they figure out their life, their love, or their career?

• 25:26Speaker 00

  Good question. Well, New York, as you know, it's a hard place to live. We're all going through it. So any help we can get, I think that we will all take. And so, yes, Stoicism can help that. And I do believe, just because I have the personal experience, that I think that Stoicism can help with just going through your day on a small level with career stuff, with relationship stuff. It just kind of reframes. It helps you reframe and find like very helpful perspectives on situations that make you not kind of go crazy with obsessive thoughts and regret and disappointment. It is a structure that kind of inoculates you against all of that.

• 26:11Speaker 00

  And so I think that that's good for any age because life is going to come at you.

• 26:16Oprah Winfrey?

  How do you use it? Give us an example.

• 26:18Speaker 00

  Well, I have a Stoic practice where I, every morning, I sit down in a chair, my old philosophy chair, and I write out the four Stoic virtues, which are wisdom, courage, temperance, and justice. And I write them out, and then I pick virtues to work on that day. Like, for instance, if it's a writing day. Uh, focus is a subset of temperance. And so I really think that my job here is to focus. It's not to write a bestseller. It's not to make a lot of money with a book. Like, I just have one job here. It's to focus. That's 100% of my control. You know, I'm not wanting...

• 26:59Speaker 00

  Basically, I try to desire only what's 100% of my control. And that, I feel like, if that's your goal for the day, is not to want anything bigger, not to want outcomes, not to want to change people, not to...

• 27:14Oprah Winfrey?

  So you don't go through the world with expectations of other people?

• 27:17Speaker 00

  Yes, and of things to turn out the way you exactly want them to turn out. And so if that's the case, then you actually can go to bed feeling good about that day, like you've, you know, done what you needed to do that day, and you're not just disappointed or frustrated. And so I do think that it's really helpful, and it helps me just reframe just things that happen or things I'm going through.

• 27:45Speaker 05

  Absolutely, that's great advice.

• 27:47Speaker 00

  Uh, thank you.

• 27:48Oprah Winfrey?

  Well, Warchi, I think it's so interesting. Every single person so far that we've talked to is, was as attracted to the Stoicism philosophy as I was. I think the Stoicism, you did exactly what you wanted to do. You nailed that thing and got us all thinking about it in a different kind of way. Didn't it do that for you too?

• 28:08Speaker 05

  It really did. And I, like you were saying before, I hadn't had my eyes open to Stoicism previously, and I also wanted to go and investigate more, read some of the books that you'd mentioned, and really understand not only Stoicism, but other types of philosophy, and seeing if there's something there that really resonated with me.

• 28:23Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah, it did the exact same thing for me. Thank you so much, Annie, thanks.

• 28:28Speaker 05

  Thanks, Annie.

• 28:28Oprah Winfrey?

  Thanks for reading it.

• 28:29Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 28:30Oprah Winfrey?

  Thanks for reading it and loving it, wow.

• 28:32Speaker 05

  I really loved it. I can be to share it with my friends.

• 28:34Oprah Winfrey?

  So Adora lives by the Latin phrase, is it amor fati?

• 28:39Speaker 00

  Yes, amor fati.

• 28:40Oprah Winfrey?

  And translated, that means?

• 28:42Speaker 00

  Love fate.

• 28:43Oprah Winfrey?

  Love fate. Meaning, love whatever shows up.

• 28:48Speaker 00

  Love it.

• 28:49Oprah Winfrey?

  Find a way to love it, make peace with it.

• 28:51Speaker 00

  Yeah, don't just accept it, but love it. And the idea is that even negative events, things that, you know, you might perceive as being negative, you can use to make yourself a better person. You can then use that to work on your patience, to work on your courage, to work on any of the virtues, that everything is fodder for being a better, more resilient person.

• 29:15Oprah Winfrey?

  She says, "Once you truly accept all the shit that happened to you, you can get to work on everything that still is available. But even acceptance isn't enough."

• 29:25Speaker 00

  That's right, you have to love it.

• 29:27Oprah Winfrey?

  You have to love it.

• 29:29Speaker 00

  Yes, and there's always so much that's available.

• 29:32Oprah Winfrey?

  Have you been able to achieve this yourself?

• 29:35Speaker 00

  Well, I'll tell you what.

• 29:36Oprah Winfrey?

  There's one thing to accept it, all the stuff.

• 29:40Speaker 00

  Right.

• 29:43Speaker 00

  Well, I'll tell you what I can do. And it helps because to me, it really engages my imagination.

• 29:50Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 29:51Speaker 00

  Is if something doesn't go well, or you know, the way I want it to, and the way that I'm hoping it will, I can very quickly get into the mindset of, it's not the worst thing in the world. Like, there's a lot of other things I can do.

• 30:06Oprah Winfrey?

  Right.

• 30:06Speaker 00

  Like, and then there's a Seneca quote in the book that is kind of a clunky quote, but it says, "Nothing can happen to you that bars you from something that's not even bigger." It's basically, whatever you feel like you've been prevented from, there's always so much more that you're not prevented from.

• 30:27Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 30:27Speaker 00

  And so I kind of switch into this imaginative mindset, where I just kind of picture, you know, the good things that it can still happen. And I think that every good thing in our life, I don't think it takes that much work to connect it pretty directly to a previous disappointment.

• 30:44Oprah Winfrey?

  Right, right, right, right.

• 30:46Speaker 00

  And so that's what I think is really useful. And once you really internalize that, you learn to kind of roll with the things that don't go your way. Because you just realize, you know, it's all gonna work out. It's all for a reason. Something better is gonna come around.

• 31:00Oprah Winfrey?

  Okay, Adora struggles with her weight.

• 31:02Speaker 00

  Oh, yes.

• 31:03Oprah Winfrey?

  And there's a very funny and relatable passage here on page 103. Sweat trickled down the back of my jumbo calves. Why had I eaten those cookies? If I started work on Monday, that only gave me three days to lose weight. And if I took two step classes, this is so me. If I took two step classes a day and ate nothing but cabbage soup. Oh, remember that cabbage soup?

• 31:23Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 31:24Oprah Winfrey?

  If I ate nothing but cabbage soup, I could lose six pounds. Not great. If the show started a week later, I could lose 20. These are thoughts that so many women have had over the years. So, I mean, have you had those thoughts yourself? Or do women come up to you and say, how do you articulate so well? Exactly what we're thinking.

• 31:45Speaker 00

  I've certainly had those thoughts myself, I'm sorry to say. I mean, the hundreds of hours that I've wasted, you know, fantasizing about how my life would change if I was 20 pounds lighter. All the doors that would magically open to me and how loved and successful I would be. And, and I'm writing that from Adora's point of view in the flashback when she's younger.

• 32:08Oprah Winfrey?

  That's right.

• 32:08Speaker 00

  And, and that's really was definitely my mindset. Just yo-yo dieting, just self-hatred, hating my body, thinking that if I was thin, my life would magically change. And I really wanted to write a character from, from someone who had no really, no strong sense of self. And to turn over your sense of well-being and hope and anything good to other people loving you because you're thin is just a prescription for kind of insanity and, and unhappiness. And so I really wanted to, you know, write Adora as a young person in that way so we could contrast her with the Adora we meet in the beginning of the book.

• 32:53Oprah Winfrey?

  That's right.

• 32:53Speaker 00

  Yes, and then we see how she got there. And, and also how kind of hard-won her serenity is. So that when it starts to get challenged by Digby, you know, we were like, don't. Don't go crazy again, Adora. You know, you've got it all figured out. Don't throw it all away.

• 33:11Oprah Winfrey?

  Well, one of our book club readers, Rebecca, is joining us from California. Hi, Rebecca.

• 33:15Speaker 06

  Hi. I did want to say first off, Adora is like, I feel like she's the woman that you would meet at like a friend's dinner party and that you would want to sit next to her.

• 33:26Oprah Winfrey?

  Yes.

• 33:27Speaker 06

  Just become her friend and be part of her coven, like ideally.

• 33:30Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 33:31Speaker 06

  I feel like she's very relatable in a lot of ways. So Adora in L.A. specifically felt like I associated with her because when I moved to L.A. 18 years ago, I knew nobody. I felt totally adrift and I leaned heavily into like all of the Buddhism, the meditation, the radical acceptance. And I think looking back now, I feel like a very different version of that person. And as a reader, I think we also get different versions of Adora throughout the book. I wondered which version of Adora was like the first version for you. Did you start with like current day New York and then you created like the backstory and the scaffolding?

• 34:15Speaker 06

  Or was it baby Adora and then you moved forward?

• 34:19Speaker 00

  It certainly was present day Adora is where I started. And it's a very good question because, you know, I know every people start very different ways, but it was definitely the present day Adora. And the more I kind of built her out, I started just wondering like, why does she need Stoicism so badly? What happened to her that she needed to just kind of put this entirely ancient operating system into herself to replace what she had had before? And I just started thinking about what that was. And I'm very interested in character. I mean, I mean, personal character.

• 35:01Speaker 00

  And that's what Stoicism really is about is like strong personal character. And when I think about that, I just, I just feel a lot of shame about my past and I feel like I didn't have good character for many years. I didn't even, again, know.

• 35:17Speaker 00

  The concept of good personal character. And so I was raised Catholic, but I was never taught character. I was taught to be kind of afraid of nuns and to lie in confession. So you didn't have too many Hail Marys. But I never really had like an ethical training system. And so I really then kind of reverse engineered the young Adora according to that. You know, and it just made it very interesting to me.

• 35:44Speaker 06

  Yeah, that makes sense.

• 35:45Oprah Winfrey?

  Thanks for loving the book.

• 35:46Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 35:46Oprah Winfrey?

  Thank you, Rebecca.

• 35:47Speaker 00

  Thanks for writing it.

• 35:48Speaker 06

  Awesome.

• 35:49Oprah Winfrey?

  There's a conversation between Adora and her Gen Z daughter, Viv, about their generational divide and the tension between, you know, mothers and daughters. You all know all about this. Was this based on a moment in your own relationship?

• 36:08Speaker 00

  Well, so I have a daughter who's older than Viv now, but she was once a teenager. And Viv is definitely an exaggerated version of my daughter. And it's funny because when I gave the book to my daughter to read, I said to her, you know, just make it past the first 20 pages because Adora is really harsh on Viv. She really thinks she has terrible character and is very open about it. And if you read the book, you're going to think, I just really don't like you. Don't like anything about you. But don't worry, there's method to my madness. Viv is going to come to life and kind of steal the book at the end. And she does, and everybody ends up loving Viv.

• 36:49Speaker 00

  And so if you're asking me if my daughter has said that I'm an old, joyless person who's just trying to take away her happy youth, yes, words to that effect have been spoken in my household.

• 37:06Oprah Winfrey?

  All right. Laura is joining us from Arizona. Laura, hi. Hi. You get to talk to Maria. Yes. Thank you for reading.

• 37:14Speaker 05

  Hi, Laura. I thoroughly enjoyed the book, and it was exactly this relationship between Adora and Viv that spoke to me the most. I am a divorced mom of a certain age, and I have a teenage daughter. So there were moments where I laughed out loud because their text message chats could be ours.

• 37:31Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 37:32Speaker 05

  So those moments really spoke to me. And I think that's probably why I was so gutted and maybe even a little defensive in the scene in the Café de Flore in Paris where Viv finally lets all of those tense emotions out and says to her mother, you know, how wounded she is, that her mother is dismissive about her feelings and her experiences and her generation's challenges. So my question for you is, was that an intentional choice? It seems like Adora may have a bit of a blind spot, even in her own stoicism practice, where her daughter is concerned. So was that an intentional drafting choice on your part?

• 38:09Speaker 00

  Yes, very much so. That's very astute. Thank you for that question. Is that, one of the hardest things for me in writing the book is I really did want Adora to be as harsh as possible to Viv in the beginning without you disliking her, you know? And I was kind of trying to push it because I knew where it would go. You know, this kind of goes to the title a little bit, is go gentle. Is that with stoicism, you go hard on yourself and easy on other people. And, and I feel like there's this hole in it, which is Adora's relationship with Viv, that she just can't, she can't apply that to her own daughter.

• 38:50Speaker 00

  And I think the reason why I did that is because stoicism is very male. It's like very bro culture now, you know? And even though I like it and I'm, I'm into it, I feel like it doesn't really leave room for the experience of being a mother. And in fact, one of my favorite lines in the book is a line that's not even mine. It came to me from my editor, Lindsay Sagnet. And it's when Adora has had a really hard day, has gone through all the stoic possibilities to make her better, and, and it doesn't work. And she gets into bed with Viv, who's asleep, and she hugs her daughter.

• 39:32Speaker 00

  And she says, "The stoics made some good points, but none of them were mothers." And, and it's just like the love of the child is what she needs. And, and, and the thought that like- You would be OK losing your child. I mean, because that's what the Stoics say, is you should just like not be attached to anything. And like the attachment that a mother has to a child is a really wonderful part of life. Like, why are you, why would anybody want to rid themselves of that?

• 40:04Oprah Winfrey?

  Right.

• 40:05Speaker 00

  And so I was really trying to bring that kind of alternate perspective into the Stoic practice through Viv and Adora.

• 40:12Oprah Winfrey?

  Thank you, Laura. Thank you.

• 40:15Speaker 00

  Thank you.

• 40:16Oprah Winfrey?

  Thanks for joining us.

• 40:17Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 40:18Oprah Winfrey?

  So you write on page 75, "When a woman decides to leave a marriage as late in life as I did, she's not leaving the marriage to find someone better. She's leaving the marriage because anything would be better than the marriage." Anything being that she'll most likely die alone. "Finding a man was never top of mind. It wasn't even on mind." Why was this important for you to explore?

• 40:40Speaker 00

  Because, again, I wanted Adora to be really happy being single. I think that that really was something where, and perhaps she's in denial a little bit about it. And I think that it showed her kind of resilience, and I think it's part of the coven, is that when she prides herself on perceiving reality correctly. And part of that perception of correct reality in her mind is that in her late 50s, you know, all the age-appropriate men are dating women in their 30s and 40s, and they're not available. And they're just not around, and it most likely will never happen.

• 41:24Speaker 00

  And so, instead of bemoaning that fate, or feeling like a big victim, or getting angry at men, why not just make the best of it and put the coven together and devote herself to philosophy and her daughter? And so, that's the reason why I was kind of so harsh about that.

• 41:43Oprah Winfrey?

  Time for a quick break. And when we come back, Maria shares her favorite quotes from Stoicism about hope and fear and everything in between. We'll be back. Hey there.

• 41:54Speaker 03

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• 42:23Oprah Winfrey?

  Welcome back to my conversation with bestselling author Maria Simple. If you've enjoyed learning about Stoicism, cultivating virtue, wisdom, and resilience, share this episode with a friend or family member. And now, back to the conversation. I had my own favorite quotes from the book. "Cease to hope and you will cease to fear." And I wanted to know, is that a favorite quote of yours?

• 42:45Speaker 00

  Well, it's so interesting. I mean, I find it so fascinating because hope, you don't think of as a bad thing.

• 42:52Oprah Winfrey?

  Yes.

• 42:52Speaker 00

  Like, I've never seen it cast as a bad thing, like as something that makes you afraid. But if you really think about it, if you're hoping, you want something-

• 43:02Oprah Winfrey?

  To be as it is not.

• 43:03Speaker 00

  Yeah, as it's not, that's out of your control. And so, it does kind of put you in a sense of fear-

• 43:10Oprah Winfrey?

  Yes.

• 43:10Speaker 00

  That you really want the thing to be happening. So, I think that's just like a very interesting insight, and I think it's true.

• 43:17Oprah Winfrey?

  Okay, "Small-minded people blame others," I said now to Lionel. "Average people blame themselves. The wise blame nobody."

• 43:24Speaker 00

  Oh, if only, right?

• 43:26Oprah Winfrey?

  If only, if only, if only. "It's not enough to be happy. You have to be aware of it and enjoy being happy." It's a subtle distinction, but it's the difference between living and being truly alive. In that moment, I made a point of immensely enjoying my happiness.

• 43:44Speaker 00

  Yes, I love that. I don't know how I came up with that, but I just realized that to blithely go through being happy is not enough. Life is short, and you have to just be so grateful-

• 43:58Oprah Winfrey?

  You have to know that you're in the happiness.

• 43:59Speaker 00

  In the happiness and being so happy. Like, right now, I'm very much in happiness, Oprah. Thank you very much. I'm completely in happiness.

• 44:06Oprah Winfrey?

  As I am with you. "Go slowly," I told myself. This is my only opportunity to hear the actual words being spoken. I love this one because it allows you to- "My one chance to assent to reality before it gets distorted by emotion."

• 44:22Oprah Winfrey?

  That is just such a beautiful sentence.

• 44:25Speaker 00

  It's so true because, you know, I have anxiety. I think a lot of people struggle with that. And that if you're in a situation, often, you know, I'm really the queen of hearing what I want to hear and not what somebody said. And so I really try to just take out all of, you know, what I want to have happen in the interaction and just try to say, what is actually happening? So that when I think about it later, I have the facts and I'm not basing it on some fantasy that I wish the words had been spoken.

• 44:54Oprah Winfrey?

  I like this one, "Character is fate."

• 44:56Speaker 00

  Yes, Heraclitus, that's a quote.

• 44:58Oprah Winfrey?

  Heraclitus, yes.

• 44:59Speaker 00

  Yeah, that, oh, God, I think that just says it all. I think that if you really intend to be a good person and to be wise and to be modest and to do your work and to keep your head down, then good things will happen to you. Then I think fate will take care of you.

• 45:15Oprah Winfrey?

  Heraclitus, "Character is fate." And this one from Thoreau, I'd never heard before. "My Thanksgiving is perpetual."

• 45:24Speaker 00

  Isn't it beautiful? He said that, oh, I'm gonna cry. He said that about nature.

• 45:27Oprah Winfrey?

  Yes.

• 45:28Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 45:28Oprah Winfrey?

  "My Thanksgiving is perpetual."

• 45:30Speaker 00

  Right, right. And I just, I love that. And that's what Adora thinks about. Actually, I think Thoreau said that about nature and philosophy together, that it was philosophy and nature when he was in that mindset, in nature, reading philosophy. He said, "My Thanksgiving is perpetual."

• 45:48Oprah Winfrey?

  So those were mine. And then you have a whole handbook of Adora's.

• 45:52Speaker 00

  Yes, and that's based on a 70-page one that I made for myself, that I keep editing and reprinting.

• 45:58Oprah Winfrey?

  "Nothing is heavy if we take it lightly," Seneca.

• 46:01Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 46:01Oprah Winfrey?

  "The most important contribution to peace of mind is never to do wrong." Okay.

• 46:06Speaker 00

  Okay, yeah.

• 46:07Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah, right.

• 46:08Speaker 00

  Thanks a lot, that really helps.

• 46:10Oprah Winfrey?

  "The greatest remedy for anger is delay." Anyway, all of these are just Adora's handbook for how to live.

• 46:18Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 46:18Oprah Winfrey?

  That came from your handbook for how to live.

• 46:21Speaker 00

  Exactly.

• 46:22Oprah Winfrey?

  I love it all.

• 46:23Speaker 00

  Thank you.

• 46:24Oprah Winfrey?

  You've said that my number one consideration is always the reading experience.

• 46:28Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 46:28Oprah Winfrey?

  And we can tell that as readers, that you have us in mind. And you say that "To me, Go Gentle is a book of ideas. I can't wait to get to talking about it with my readers." What is it you hope that the reading experience would be?

• 46:43Speaker 00

  Well, all I want is just a good time, you know? I feel like I just want the page to be turned and for people to get to the end of the book. I feel like if they get... And I love how quickly everyone's getting to the end of the book.

• 46:55Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah, a day and a half.

• 46:56Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's amazing. So I feel like, wow, I did it. And so that's really what I want to do. And, you know, I'm not really trying to expose people to Stoicism, but apparently I have.

• 47:07Oprah Winfrey?

  You did.

• 47:08Speaker 00

  And they like it. So that's kind of amazing. That really was never my intention. But I think I, you know, want to show people a good time and maybe laugh along the way and feel along the way, you know, and learn to love better. I think ultimately this is a book about love and loving better. And so I think that that really should be what art does, you know, is make you want to love better.

• 47:32Oprah Winfrey?

  Well, that's what you do. And I thank you for doing it, for showing us a good time in Go Gentle, which is available wherever you buy your books. And thank you, all the readers who got their copies in advance and were able to share your questions with us today. Talking about great books is one of my favorite things to do. My 122nd book club pick, Go Gentle, is available now wherever books are sold. Go well, everybody. You can subscribe to the Oprah Podcast on YouTube and follow us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen. I'll see you next week. Thanks, everybody.