44: Negative People, Entitled Team after Extreme Ownership, Managing with your Meyers-Briggs Personality Type.

0:00:00 - Opening 0:04:12 - Ways to avoid injury when starting Jiu Jitsu 0:23:31 - When do you use Decentralized Command with a new group. 0:35:05 - Workouts to become more relaxed in the water & help lower heart rate. 0:45:26 - Dichotomy of the ego. When to check it and when to let it fly. 0:54:18 - Taking Extreme Ownership, and then the team gets ENTITLED. 1:05:57 - How to deal with toxic/negative people. 1:12:32 - Meyers Briggs personality types and how to avoid creating division in a team. 1:23:01 - How to deal with it when bad things happen to good people around you. 1:27:55 - Cool Internet/Onnit stuff. Jocko Store, Amazon. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jocko Willink?

  This is Jocko Podcast number 44 with Echo Charles and me Jocko Willink. Good evening Echo. Good evening.

• 0:13Jocko Willink?

  And the last podcast, number 43, went a little bit long. Sure. We did not get to the Q and A and it's, it's one of the nice things about having a podcast, having a forum that we actually own and can do whatever we want with. If it goes long, that's cool. We'll just let it go long. We can go down that road. Now, some people might say, oh, you went too far down that road. Okay, that's fine. Press stop. You can go proceed somewhere else. Some people say, I wish you would have gone further down that road. So we're just kind of going off of instinct here. What to me?

• 0:58Jocko Willink?

  Like, okay, think, we think we went far enough down that road. We're good there. But we did not get to Q and A. And so

• 1:09Jocko Willink?

  that's what we're going to do today. Do some Q and A. Questions from the interwebs. Which is always good. A lot of people, tons of questions. Definitely appreciate all the questions that are coming through. And I apologize, I can't get to all of them. I will say this, I've talked to some, some troopers out in the field and they're, they're, they're like, we know what you're going to say. Like when a question comes, which is awesome. That means I'm working myself out of a job. If you're out there and you already know what the answer to the question is, that's awesome. That means, cool. You figured it out. You know what you need to do? Go educate someone else. Go help someone else. Go. So it's cool that people are starting to understand, I think, the, the holistic mindset that's going on here.

• 1:54Jocko Willink?

  And that's very positive to me. Now, that being said, there's always questions that come through. Sometimes even I'm go, okay, let me think about that one. And some of them are really obvious. I got on, you know, I got on uh, on Twitter the other day. Somebody asked me, somebody said, hey, what have you learned about people or about humans? Since you, you know, kind of entered the world of social media on a, on a large scale? And I wrote back that I've figured out that humans don't Google things before they ask you the question on Twitter.

• 2:32Jocko Willink?

  Cause sometimes people just ask me, you know, the, this, an uh, a question that you could Google faster. They'll ask me about a, you know, just some quote. Not one of my quotes, but a Shakespeare quote, or a book, or a military unit, you know, um, ma- man, Google that. Don't ask me. If you want to ask me a specific question that I might know something, that's cool. That's awesome. I'm more than happy to answer. Also, I get asked 12 times a day, what time do you go to sleep at night? So, I just write 11. And people are laughing about that. Anyways, but we do get some awesome questions from the interwebs as well. And the other thing that's cool about answering questions from the interwebs

• 3:14Jocko Willink?

  is it does make me think about that specific situation that someone's in. And A, have I experienced it before, which maybe I have, maybe I haven't. I've at least probably seen it before, or some version of it. But then, once you answer a question about it, it quantifies in your brain, it solidifies it in your brain. And now, when I get asked that question again, I'm like, boom, I can answer it m- more. I can answer it with a little more authority because I've seen it before.

• 3:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:46Jocko Willink?

  That makes it better. So, uh, basically what I'm saying is, when I get forced to a- answer questions, I am learning. Just like when I'm reading a book, I'm learning. When I'm answering a question, I'm learning.

• 3:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, just like when you teach a move.

• 3:58Jocko Willink?

  Uh, when you teach a move in Jiu Jitsu, you get better at that move. No doubt about it. And that, that's why it is beneficial for me and I appreciate all these questions that everybody asks me because they make me smarter.

• 4:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:09Jocko Willink?

  So, alright, rock and roll.

• 4:12Speaker 01

  Alright, question number one.

• 4:16Speaker 01

  This one was for you and Sam Harris.

• 4:18Jocko Willink?

  Sam Harris, that's right.

• 4:21Speaker 01

  Sam Harris isn't here by the way, but the question is, I would like to start BJJ training, but worry about injury. What are your thoughts?

• 4:31Jocko Willink?

  Now, I actually, we had these questions prepared for, to answer on the tail end of 43, and I will say this. People want to know what's my mindset about things, you know, what am I thinking? Here's one thing, and you might notice this pattern, if you, if you pay attention, close attention to the podcast. You might notice there's a pattern that usually after these crazy dark books.

• 4:53Speaker 01

  Right.

• 4:54Jocko Willink?

  I usually roll that first question in the question and answer period. It's about jujitsu. Like, let's just, let's just relax a little bit, man.

• 5:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 5:04Jocko Willink?

  Somebody posted, uh, somebody, BJJ caveman came and rolled with me.

• 5:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:08Jocko Willink?

  And someone was telling me, someone that I know was telling me like, yeah, my friend saw the picture, the video of you rolling. And they were like, he looks like the happiest I've ever seen him. And I was like, well, yeah, I was on the mat.

• 5:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 5:22Jocko Willink?

  So that's the general idea between, let's just go from the intensity generally of a combat situation from a book into, alright, now we can take a wrap off and we can talk about jujitsu.

• 5:37Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 5:38Jocko Willink?

  I like that.

• 5:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, makes sense for sure.

• 5:40Jocko Willink?

  So, BJJ training and you're worried about injuries, that makes sense. Actually, I've got to ask this question a few times. People that rely on their hands to work, uh, one guy's a professional, actually two guys were professional guitarists.

• 5:53Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, yeah.

• 5:54Jocko Willink?

  And they're sketched out about doing jujitsu.

• 5:58Jocko Willink?

  Anybody that has a job that relies on a lot of physicality, you, you are at risk because you're, you know, you're doing a sport. No. Injuries absolutely happen in jujitsu. It, it is a contact sport and you can get injured while you're doing it.

• 6:14Jocko Willink?

  You can get injured in any, any sport that you do.

• 6:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:17Jocko Willink?

  Any sport that you do, the, the worst, my, I hurt my knee. I had an 80% tear in my MCL. Did it surfing.

• 6:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:26Jocko Willink?

  You know, Ben Heel hooked by Dean Lister thousands, thousands and thousands of times. Never had a knee injury. I'm out surfing and it hurt my knee. So, you can get hurt doing anything.

• 6:38Jocko Willink?

  But...

• 6:41Jocko Willink?

  So you have to be careful, right? And I think one of the best, one of the most critical ways to be careful in jiu-jitsu is by make sure that you're picking the right training partners.

• 6:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:50Jocko Willink?

  Cause there's some knucklehead training partners at every gym and they're, they're a 20,

• 6:57Jocko Willink?

  22-year-old male,

• 7:01Jocko Willink?

  who has a lot of testosterone and has a very sensitive ego. And so he's looking just to crush everyone. So you gotta watch out for that guy. And I, and actually I shouldn't, I shouldn't actually, paint that so broad brush because there's plenty of people that are, that are older people with a big ego and younger people. There's people, there's just basically you gotta watch out for these knuckleheads that are gonna go crazy.

• 7:24Speaker 01

  Yeah. Some people don't know better too. You know, they're just, they just happen to be big and strong and they're not being knuckleheads. They're just like,

• 7:31Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 7:32Speaker 01

  They're getting it, you know, they're rolling.

• 7:32Jocko Willink?

  They told me to grab the arm and pull.

• 7:35Speaker 01

  I'm trying to pass that guard. I don't know that much technique. I'm just gonna go hard.

• 7:38Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, no, you're right. They're, they're, they're not intentionally being aggressive, but jiu-jitsu is an aggressive sport. And if you happen to be 260 pounds, that can be problematic. So you wanna, and I know it sounds weird if it goes, well, I don't want some purple belt that's just gonna run through me. No, actually you do. The purple belt, the chance of you getting hurt by a purple belt are infinitely less than you getting hurt by a white belt.

• 8:02Speaker 01

  Absolutely true.

• 8:03Jocko Willink?

  And the higher you go up, the more accurate that is, unless of course you're, you're a, you're a problem.

• 8:08Speaker 01

  Right.

• 8:09Jocko Willink?

  Or you're a bully and there needs to be a regulatory situation happening, in which case a black belt is not gonna, you know.

• 8:16Speaker 01

  He, he won't injure you though. That's the thing. It's like, I think when you enter fighting sports, punishment isn't being beat up. You get beat up, that's part of the game.

• 8:27Jocko Willink?

  True.

• 8:28Speaker 01

  It's more, it's more of like an embarrassment thing or like,

• 8:33Jocko Willink?

  Just humility, just getting humbled.

• 8:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, like they're gonna wear you out, you know, or make you look like you suck or I don't, it's, it's, it's more of like a lesson thing in that way. It's not like getting beat up.

• 8:44Jocko Willink?

  I, I, I agree with you. Now another piece of this, and I, I, this is just a reality, okay?

• 8:51Jocko Willink?

  Doing stand up, you have a higher chance of getting hurt. Like doing takedowns, going hard takedowns, either judo type style takedowns or wrestling style takedowns, you have a higher chance of getting a knee injury or an ankle injury. There's no doubt about it. So be careful. Just think about what you're doing there with with with stand up. You know, if you're a person that's, you know, you gotta you gotta learn some basic takedowns, absolutely. But do you need to step in there night after night and get your full on wrestling practice together? And as if you're a 43 year old person that, you know, you're a 43 year old cop that's working the beat, you know, you need to know takedowns. Don't get me wrong. You need to train them. You need to study them. You need to

• 9:33Jocko Willink?

  make sure you know how to do them. Do you need to out wrestle somebody in a in a wrestling situation? Probably not. You know, you're you're not going to need to do that. So just use caution with takedowns. Make sure you know how to do them. But as you get to where you want to not get injured, is your one of your primary thoughts in training, then just be careful to stand up.

• 10:01Jocko Willink?

  Obviously, do a good warm up. And this is something I'm just the worst perpetrator of not warming up. Well, I like to warm up by rolling. So and actually, now I do usually do one round where I'm just kind of chilling and just kind of rolling flow. But I used to not even do that. I used to just like clap hands and go. So don't do that. Obviously, keep your ego in check. And I'll say another thing. And I was talking about this with Greg Train the other day, because Greg Train popped his rib. And he was just saying to me, his rib is recovered now. But he was saying to me, you know, he's like, I think you don't get injured because you work out all the time. And I'm like, I agree with you 100%. So I believe that you should work out on a regular basis. And somebody

• 10:46Jocko Willink?

  just asked me, do you train and lift on the same days? And I said, yeah, absolutely. I train and lift. I train and lift every day. So get your workout program going on, you know, make sure you maintain that. Some people, when they start doing jiu jitsu, they're going so crazy that they use all this muscle and so they go, I'm not going to work out because I'm just getting a workout. No, wrong answer. Keep working out. As a matter of fact, you should, and I always encourage working out, lifting, doing your metcon, doing whatever, before you do jiu jitsu. That's what I do. I want to be tired when I show up to jiu jitsu and fight in a worse scenario. You know, make it harder for myself. I don't want to show up and, and be all fresh.

• 11:29Jocko Willink?

  And like, that's going to happen every day. No, I like to be tired, worn out, stressed system, and then show up and still get after it on the mats.

• 11:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, that part's pretty advanced, though, to do it like that. I gotta say, I mean, being new is the question.

• 11:44Jocko Willink?

  I've done that the whole time.

• 11:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, and, and I've done that too before and good, yeah.

• 11:50Jocko Willink?

  You, do you work out after? You lift weights after you train jiu jitsu?

• 11:54Speaker 01

  I've done both.

• 11:55Jocko Willink?

  Okay, what do you do normally?

• 11:57Speaker 01

  I do one in like, I don't do two days normally.

• 12:00Jocko Willink?

  Oh, so when you roll into the mat, you're like all fresh?

• 12:04Speaker 01

  In a manner of speaking, yeah. Fresher than I would be if I did a workout before, yes. Put it that way.

• 12:09Jocko Willink?

  That's cool.

• 12:09Speaker 01

  No, as of right now, that is how it is, yes, for sure. But before, and even when I was training for competition and stuff, oh yeah. And even, yeah, like, maybe like two years, three years ago, maybe, um, yeah, I'd work out, I'd do the workout first. And then go roll out, like, in the evening.

• 12:26Jocko Willink?

  I think that's the plan. Um, as much as you can work on your flexibility.

• 12:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:32Jocko Willink?

  And this is something that I, again, this is a big fail area in my book. I'm not flexible as I should be. And if you are more flexible, your injury levels are going to go down.

• 12:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:42Jocko Willink?

  So, you know, stretch and it's real easy stuff that, you know, everyone says to do, you know, when you're sitting there on the mat, even when you're sitting on the mat and the teacher's teaching, you know, try to go to a lotus position. Try and, you know, just do stretches while you're doing that. If you're sitting around, just stretch while you're sitting around, while you're working on your computer, sit in a way that you're getting some kind of stretch. So, so stretch and be flexible as much as you can. Now, another thing, I kind of talked about guitarists and anybody, you know, a surgeon, anybody that's working with their hands and wants to protect their fingers. I would recommend maybe emphasizing more no gi, where you're not grabbing onto that gi all the time.

• 13:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. And get fingers get caught up in there and he twists or something too.

• 13:23Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 13:24Speaker 01

  And yank them.

• 13:24Jocko Willink?

  There's.

• 13:24Speaker 01

  Actually you do silk. Yeah, every time pretty much.

• 13:27Jocko Willink?

  It's fairly common. Um, I actually, my worst finger injury was actually no gi. So that's, and I only did it a couple of months ago, which is just, and it was just a bizarre, you know, it's a bizarre incident. I is one of those things. So that's why.

• 13:43Jocko Willink?

  It's really hard for me to just straight up encourage somebody that needs their fingers.

• 13:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:48Jocko Willink?

  Like, no, no, you don't worry. You're not gonna get, no, no, no, you can't get her. Now, I've had one finger injury. You know, significant finger injury in 20 plus years.

• 13:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:58Jocko Willink?

  So you can get a finger injury cutting the carrots on the, you know, in the kitchen. So.

• 14:06Jocko Willink?

  You know, you gotta be careful. But there's no guarantee that you're not gonna hurt. And I'll tell you, and the other thing is, I will say this. You got some chance of getting injured, right? But there's also some massive. Physical and mental benefits that will likely outweigh. The injuries, the perceived injuries or the possible injuries that you might get. So you're just gonna be healthier. Your, your fingers are gonna be stronger.

• 14:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:30Jocko Willink?

  I mean, yeah, you might get some injured fingers, uh, but you are also gonna have fingers that are stronger. Your grip is gonna be stronger.

• 14:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:38Jocko Willink?

  So that's beneficial. Your mind is gonna be stronger. Your cardiovascular system is gonna be stronger. So there's a lot of benefits. To jujitsu that outweigh, in my mind, the possibility of having an injury.

• 14:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:50Jocko Willink?

  I mean, a possibility of having a catastrophic injury is pretty small, especially if you train smart. It really is.

• 14:57Speaker 01

  Agree. Absolutely agree. Yes. And when you think about it, even of the people that you know. Over 20, that's a lot of people that you know, who's had a, any kind of major injury.

• 15:08Jocko Willink?

  Well, if you count, it depends what you count as a major injury, but. You know, if you blow out your knee, that means you're gonna be down, you're gonna be six months of surgery or whatever. Surgery and six months of rehab and then another three months before you can trade. That's, you know, that's a year.

• 15:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:22Jocko Willink?

  And, and that could be, some people consider that catastrophic injury. I know I would be devastated, but at the same time, you know, I, I got neck surgery. I was out for a bit. Don't even remember it now. Flash in the pan, who cares, whatever.

• 15:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:35Jocko Willink?

  Deal with it. I played more guitar during that time. You know what I mean? Good times.

• 15:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, and, and in, in reference to this question, man, this is anything you do. Guys on the basketball court all the time. Oh, go up for just recreational basketball, pickup game, weekend, whatever, blow out their knee, ankle, whatever, you know? I had, I mean, I've been in the game, what, 12 years? I had one, cause I was getting nuts in a tournament. Bicep tear, major injury, you know, out for, you know, a year or whatever. But, other than that, never been injured because of a submission.

• 16:07Jocko Willink?

  A lot of training, too.

• 16:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, in full speed training, competition, like everything in, as far as submission holds go, never been injured. In a submission, you know how like guys do.

• 16:17Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, for sure. You should, you should definitely, if you're a smart jiu-jitsu player, you'll never get injured from somebody trying to submission on you, cause you tap.

• 16:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, you tap and look, it's not gonna not hurt, you know, if you tap too late, usually it's just you get hurt. Maybe your shoulder's kind of whatever for a week or, but you can still train. It's not an injury, put it that way. You know, and even if, yeah, even if you're, you're big, small, I think that's pretty common. It's really rare that I see, oh, I'm, my ACL is out because of a heel hook. Maybe in competition, cause you're trying to win, you weren't trying to tap, there's few, okay, but yeah, generally speaking, it's surprising almost. That it's that safe.

• 16:56Jocko Willink?

  It is. When you consider, when you consider what the objective of the sport is to break and destroy people's limbs.

• 17:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:02Jocko Willink?

  The fact that it rarely happens.

• 17:04Speaker 01

  I know.

• 17:05Jocko Willink?

  It just rarely happens.

• 17:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:07Jocko Willink?

  So, yes, be careful. There's no guarantees, but train.

• 17:13Speaker 01

  Back to the training partners part, you know, when you, the first where you were saying, be careful who you train with and stuff like that. So sometimes, especially like, let's say if you're older, or um, even if you're a girl and you go in and, and you know, you're the only girl and you know, some people that, they like, let's say the guy doesn't know any better and he's going hard. You can tell when he starts to go hard, sometimes it can be awkward to kind of say, hey, you know, like respectfully, I'm not going to roll with you because of, you know, it's, it's kind of like asking someone to dance and them saying no.

• 17:43Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 17:44Speaker 01

  You know, like, oh, it's like rejection. So it's awkward. So sometimes people will just tough it out and be like, oh, just try to endure. I think if you can, you know, if you can go through that and really look out for yourself where, you know, the guy's going nuts, it's obviously, usually he's not trying to go nuts and hurt you. That's, that's pretty rare. But they don't know any better. They're a white belt or, you know, whatever. And they're just bigger and stronger, whatever. And, and they're going nuts. You gotta, you gotta find a good tactful way to be like, hey, I, I respect you, but I'm concerned about like just my injuries or whatever.

• 18:19Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, just, you know what? Hey, sorry. I only roll with people under 130 because I have a, you know, uh,

• 18:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:24Jocko Willink?

  injured rib.

• 18:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 18:26Jocko Willink?

  And there you go. Just, just, is that a white lie? Maybe it is, but I don't think it's a malicious situation.

• 18:33Speaker 01

  White lies are fine when you're breaking.

• 18:34Jocko Willink?

  Sam Harris, I apologize for telling people to tell a little white lie to save themselves massive injuries, catastrophic injuries.

• 18:41Speaker 01

  Yeah. But again, it's like telling someone no when they ask you to dance. You can tell white lies. The fact is, you know, man, for my own reasons, I don't want to dance, you know?

• 18:52Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, but it might be okay to say, oh, sorry. Um, I'm here with Billy over there and, and so I can't dance with you. And that's actually going to make you feel better than just like, hey, you know what? Actually, I don't like you.

• 19:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 19:03Jocko Willink?

  You kind of disgust me, so I'm not dancing with you. Walk away.

• 19:06Speaker 01

  Right, yeah, exactly.

• 19:07Jocko Willink?

  Is it necessary to do that? Probably not. Maybe the little white lie is okay.

• 19:10Speaker 01

  Helps, yeah.

• 19:11Jocko Willink?

  Again, Sam Harris, apologize. We're encouraging lying.

• 19:14Speaker 01

  Yeah. It's like saying, like, I'm not going to say, hey, you're a spaz, you're a liability, you might hurt me because of what you don't know how to do. I'm not going to roll with you. That's different, you know? You, you offended the guy.

• 19:28Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 19:29Speaker 01

  Most likely.

• 19:30Jocko Willink?

  So actually, we're, we're actually talking about that while you are. On the jujitsu mats, doing physical jujitsu, sometimes you gotta throw in a little mental jujitsu in the situation and just manipulate a little bit the mentality of your training partners.

• 19:44Speaker 01

  Yep, and that is in the spirit of safety.

• 19:47Jocko Willink?

  Indeed.

• 19:48Speaker 01

  Cause I don't think Jocko would ever say that to anybody. He'd be like, "Oh, you're a spaz, bring it on," if I'm not mistaken.

• 19:56Jocko Willink?

  You gotta deal with them people.

• 19:58Speaker 01

  Yep. Next question. When dealing with new groups of folks.

• 20:03Jocko Willink?

  Hey, before you go there, by the way, sometimes you should train with someone that's really a spaz and harder and bigger than you. You should do that sometimes. Now, you should use caution when you do it. Maybe you can get that. I would rather if my, like my son, if I'm gonna have him train with someone that's big and strong, I'm gonna have him train with you. I'm gonna have him train with Dean.

• 20:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:22Jocko Willink?

  Because I know that you guys will give him enough strength to, you know, but you're not gonna hurt him, because he's only 140 pounds.

• 20:28Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 20:29Jocko Willink?

  But I don't wanna give the impression here, like, sometimes you gotta roll with that. Sometimes you gotta roll with somebody that's big, strong, and doesn't know what they're doing, just so you're, now you and I know what to do there, but if you're a blue belt, or, or, yeah, if you're a blue belt and a big wrestler shows, and you weigh 165 pounds, and a wrestler shows up that weighs 240, and it's his third day, and you're a young guy, you know, it's, it's a good idea to roll with that person. Because they're gonna do things you aren't expecting, they're really strong, they're gonna be trying really hard, and you wanna be, you wanna be, you wanna train for yourself for the unexpected. So, basically, don't just, we, I'm not saying, we, when I say, you know, watch your training

• 21:11Jocko Willink?

  partners, I'm not saying for a normal person that's training, crawl into a, a safety bubble while you're on the mats. No. Especially people that are, you know, young and fit, you should be training with every person you can. Every different body style, try them out, big wrestlers, small people, lanky people, train with them all. Cause that gets you used to all those different body styles, it improves your game.

• 21:31Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 21:31Jocko Willink?

  I'm saying if you are very concerned about injuries, because you have a job that requires you to, you know, use your hands, or walk, or whatever, then you go, "Okay, you know what? I need to take the long, the long vision here, the long, fight the long war, and really be selective on my training partners."

• 21:47Speaker 01

  Absolutely correct, yes. Just like, I mean, just like how the question is. I'm, I wanna start jujitsu and I'm worried about it, so.

• 21:56Jocko Willink?

  Exactly, that guy, use your, use your brain.

• 21:59Speaker 01

  Exactly, but just like how you said, when you get to about blue belt, you gotta start introducing more challenges in different ways and absolutely correct, man, cuz if, if you don't, if you don't and you can, let's say you're not used to, let's say you're used to the same training partners all the time. And you train with, you know, blue belts, purple belts, there is specific and very effective jujitsu moves for other jujitsu moves, right? So it's like, don't turn your back, all these rules that are pretty fundamental that rarely should be broken and we all know them. So you roll with a guy who's his third day is athletic wrestler, he doesn't know those rules, but now, so he puts you outside of the whole format of jujitsu. And if you don't know it, it's like dang, it's almost like my jujitsu is not really working that good, you know? If you're not used to it, but if you are used to it, you'd be like, okay.

• 22:43Jocko Willink?

  And that's such a good technique to use with people, right? When you're dealing with people, people, like people's personalities, people have a personality that they, that's how they deal with things and they get people, they funnel people into their world. So if you have to break that, just step outside their world, like don't get drawn into people's worlds, right? Don't get drawn into people's strengths, I mean, we talk about this all the time, but don't get drawn into their strengths, don't get drawn into their way of fighting. Because it's not, you're not gonna be able to win that battle cuz you do it all day long, right? So just come at them from a different angle, usually disarm them somehow, instead of being confrontational, this is just normal stuff, but instead of being confrontational with somebody, take a little flank and maybe, you know, massage their ego a little bit, but that's the exact same thing.

• 23:26Jocko Willink?

  If, if people have a way of doing things and you can get outside their pattern, you have a better chance of getting a victory.

• 23:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, it's crazy how that works.

• 23:35Jocko Willink?

  Alright.

• 23:36Speaker 01

  When dealing with new groups of folks, when do you do decentralized command? Right away or gradually? As in slowly give them trust or slowly take it away as needed?

• 23:50Jocko Willink?

  Again, this is a good, solid question, this is something that people ask on a fairly regular basis and it's a pretty straightforward answer. Um, okay, you can't obviously just right away, just, just give people full autonomy because you have to build it up somewhat.

• 24:07Jocko Willink?

  Incrementally, give them the opportunity to be on their own now and what you're really building, what you're really building with decentralized command is you're building trust. And that's what you're trying to do. And as I've said before, the best way to build trust is to give trust.

• 24:28Jocko Willink?

  But before you give trust, you've got to set expectations, you've got to set standards, you've got to set guidelines. Cause this person that you're just, I mean, this is a new person, they might be a crazy, they might be incompetent. They might have a totally different vision of what's okay than you might, they might be unethical. There's all kinds of things that they might be that you cannot allow for. So what you have to do is set those standards, set those guidelines and put those, put those guardrails in place so that you make sure that this person is ethical. Make sure that they do are professional, make sure that they do have the same standards. Make sure that they understand the expectations you set for them.

• 25:06Jocko Willink?

  And that's, that's when you can start to hand out more slack and more ownership. Cause we don't want to micromanage. When I was talking about parameters, I'm not talking about telling people exactly how to do it. But let's say you and I started working together and you were my subordinate. If we fast forward two years from now, I'd be like, hey Echo, this is what we're trying to get done, make it happen. I'll, you know, check back with me when it's done, right? That's how much leeway I'm giving you. I don't even care. But when we first started working together, I mean, like Echo, here's what we want to get done. Can you come up with a plan and then, and then let me know, let me take a look at what you're going to do? Boom. Now I'm still letting you fully own the plan, but I'm going to do a little check. I'm going to make sure that it's the right gym and make sure it's a good plan.

• 25:49Jocko Willink?

  I'm going to make sure it's a smart plan. I'm going to make sure it handles our, our resources correctly. So all those things I'm just going to, and then the more we work together, the more we build the trust, the more you understand the expectations, the less guidance I'm going to give you, the less oversight I'm going to give you. Cause I'm built up, because you've built up trust with me and I've built up trust with you. So that's important. I also want you to be able to make your own decisions.

• 26:16Jocko Willink?

  Because I don't want to be making decisions all the time, you know, so even when you even in the first scenario, when I've been working with you for a long time, you know, I say, hey, I could go figure this out. You go, you go handle it. You get it done. When we first start working together, you might come to me and say, hey, Jocko, I hit this wall. What do you want me to do here? What do you think I'm going to say? Figure it out. I'm going to say, figure it out. I'm going to say, hey, man, I, I don't know what's your, what's your best guess? Or how would you do it? Or, you know, if we knew each other a little bit better, I'd say, hey, man, don't come asking me those questions. Go figure that out. I don't care how you do it. Just get around that wall. Boom. And we're done. And

• 26:52Jocko Willink?

  now the other, one other key part of this is oftentimes, if you take over a new team, you may want to, you may want to start off by setting the example, by running the perfect operation, by going from end to end with some project that you set the standard on how you want things to be. So everybody looks and goes, okay, that's how, okay, I see how he did that. Whoa, he's, he wants that done. He, oh, he holds the line on that. So that way, everybody knows what the standard is. So there's, and, and I would always, you know, I mean, I would always, when I start off, when I take over a platoon, take over a squad, like, okay, we're, we're doing this operation. Cool. Here's our, I would run it very distinctly, very clearly be the guy.

• 27:38Jocko Willink?

  And then as time goes on and trust develops, I'm going to become less and less the guy and more and more the

• 27:47Jocko Willink?

  the decentralized leader that's stepping back and letting the frontline troopers lead. That's what I'm going to try and make happen.

• 27:55Jocko Willink?

  As always, when you do start with a new group, it's real easy. Be humble, listen, take advice, ask, ask questions, ask questions, ask good questions about things that you, if there's something you don't understand, ask the question, no big deal. Make the slow incremental changes like Hackworth talks about in Steel My Soldier's Heart. He's going to change two things a day. Not going to change the whole world overnight. Can't do it. So he's going to change two things a day. That being said, he also did some major, do you remember, if you remember this Hackworth, he gets in there and the guys have radios and they got guitars and they got all this stuff. And he goes, yeah, I put all that stuff in the middle of the compound. It's out of here tomorrow. Right? That was a major change. So he went and kind of shook them up a little bit, but then he goes, okay, now I gotta go the long war. I'm gonna change two little things a day.

• 28:40Jocko Willink?

  And that's what he did. So sometimes it's a combination of those two. Sometimes you gotta give, send a little shock value. Like, hey, new sheriff in town. That's what I used to say in the SEAL teams, a new commanding officer would come over. If he would do, a lot of times they do something to assert their presence. Like, hey, I'm here now. No more parking in the back lot. You know what I mean? Or, hey, new, new SEAL, I just took over. No more wearing this uniform to this place. Okay, so everyone go, okay, new sheriff in town. Let, let's let him get this out of his system.

• 29:17Speaker 01

  So do they, do they typically react in that way where they're like, like, that's why I see what you're doing there.

• 29:23Jocko Willink?

  Pretty much, it's cool. Pretty much in SEAL teams, it would be like, okay, yeah, and hey, new sheriff in town. He just came up with a new rule for us to follow, so we know he's here. Cool.

• 29:32Speaker 01

  Right. That was, it's not like, ah, he's, it's not like some resentment or nothing.

• 29:36Jocko Willink?

  Maybe the guys that are less mature, I hate to use that word, but maybe guys that weren't quite as in the game. Would be like, man, what's he doing this for? Maybe, hey, bro, don't worry about it, it's new sheriff in town. He's got it, he's letting us know where he's here. Yeah. He's got it.

• 29:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:51Jocko Willink?

  We got it, so we're all good.

• 29:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, that's cool.

• 29:56Jocko Willink?

  But occasionally, see, occasionally you get somebody that, that comes in. You notice the things that I just said were, were fairly irrelevant? Like, hey, don't wear this uniform to there, or hey, don't park in this park, whatever. Those are fairly inconsequential things and those things are, are okay, actually. But occasionally you'd see somebody come in and try and do a, you know, execute some kind of a fundamental change. And that's where you go, wait a second, man. You've been here for a day and a half and you want to execute a fundamental change on what we're doing here? There's a, we have a problem with that. We as, we as the troops have a problem with that because you don't know, how do you know? We've been doing, I've been doing this for, I was at SEAL Team One for eight years. You know, you're going to show up, I've been here for five years, you're going to tell me how it's better to do this?

• 30:38Jocko Willink?

  And that might not be the right attitude for a young guy like myself to have, but that's the attitude that you're going to generate. If you come in and try and make fundamental changes without assessing.

• 30:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:48Jocko Willink?

  So show some tactical patience when you come in and say, okay, let me check this out. Again, just to refer back to the Hack, the Hackworth story, Hackworth was going to take over a battalion that was all jacked up.

• 31:00Jocko Willink?

  They were called the hopeless, right? And he wanted to turn them into the hardcore. So he, his shocking thing that he did was meant to shock. And it was also meant to square them away and was also the right thing to do. And they also had a bad reputation. If he went in and took over a really good battalion, he wouldn't go in there with the same shock and awe type treatment. Cause they don't need it. So you gotta, you gotta think about what you're doing. But in most cases, unless you're taking over some kind of a problem situation, there you might have to use a little shock and awe. If you're taking over a normal situation, oh, the boss got promoted, you're going to go into, go into this parole? Hey, no problem. Come in there, be humble, listen. Then as you see fit, make some small incremental changes.

• 31:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, like the shock and awe thing will probably work against you in a, in a, in a normal situation.

• 31:44Jocko Willink?

  Oh yeah, it'll definitely work against you. It'll definitely work against you. Now you, now, cause now you're, think about it. Now you're imposing a plan on people.

• 31:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:52Jocko Willink?

  People don't like to have plans imposed upon them. They don't like it.

• 31:57Jocko Willink?

  They don't like it. Even, even the big controlled military where everyone's in a chain of command. No, no one in the military likes to have big, new ideas imposed upon them without thought and without assessment and without explanation and without telling people why. No, you don't do that.

• 32:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:18Jocko Willink?

  And that what you want and what you want to do is by doing all those things by building that trust by setting the standards by setting the guidelines by putting the guardrails in place by listening by respecting by being humble what you will do is you will lead people to lead themselves and that's what you want.

• 32:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, explaining why I feel like that's maybe an underappreciated thing.

• 32:45Jocko Willink?

  I'll tell you what, it's not underappreciated in my book. That's the, that's the absolute, that is the, that's the critical piece.

• 32:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, even.

• 32:53Jocko Willink?

  Explaining to people why they're doing what they're doing.

• 32:54Speaker 01

  You could go in and, I mean, really, when you think about, you could go in and change some fundamental thing if you explain why and everyone's like, oh yeah, that makes sense. But just like how you're saying, if you, if you roll in and you're just, you make a fundamental change, everyone's like, bro, we were doing it that way for a reason and you just came and changed, but you explain why and they understand it makes more sense.

• 33:14Jocko Willink?

  And you get feedback because maybe what you said is the wrong decision, right? You might be saying something that's like, you know what, you didn't think that through really all that well.

• 33:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:22Jocko Willink?

  And you need to discuss this with the, with the troops and figure out what their assessment of, of your call is.

• 33:27Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. Again, one of those things where when we talk about like this, like, yeah, yep, that makes perfect sense, but it's, I don't know.

• 33:36Jocko Willink?

  You know what's funny is on the podcast, just as an example, we talked fairly shortly about going to the podcast once every two weeks, right? I didn't really give a good explanation of why and you know what feedback I got?

• 33:53Jocko Willink?

  It was like, hey, you gotta be kidding me. Wait, no, this thing comes out on Wednesday. Jocko, I don't know what your problem is. The podcast comes out on Wednesday and I got that feedback from numerous people, um, not only on social media, but also in face to face, you know, people that texted me and called me and said, bro, you can't go to once a week. There was people that say, hey, first of all, if you're gonna do that, you need to set some kind of warning. You need to let people know. We need some time. So it was, it was funny, but the, the essential thing that I did not do is say, hey, guys, here's what's going on. Here's why I would want to do this in a different way. And I didn't really explain that, you know, we just kinda, cause it wasn't an actual decision that was getting made, it was a consideration.

• 34:39Jocko Willink?

  The consideration has been revoked, by the way. We're holding the line. We're holding the line, and when we do have to do that, which may or may not happen, but I will explain why in great detail, so everyone understands where I'm coming from.

• 34:54Jocko Willink?

  Cause I don't want to leave anybody hanging.

• 34:56Speaker 01

  They're gonna be like, "Hey Jocko, I feel like you don't really understand what's going on here."

• 35:00Jocko Willink?

  On the front lines?

• 35:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, you don't.

• 35:02Jocko Willink?

  On the front lines, we waiting for that podcast song.

• 35:07Jocko Willink?

  Awesome.

• 35:07Speaker 01

  Next question.

• 35:10Speaker 01

  Jocko, what are some workouts to progress in becoming more relaxed in the water? I need to lower my heart rate.

• 35:17Jocko Willink?

  Okay. Again, this is a

• 35:22Jocko Willink?

  a good question, it's actually a little bit of a universal question, that's why, again, I like to take questions that apply universally to multiple things. Becoming comfortable in the water is very important. Water makes you better. Water makes you a better person, and I'll tell you, I've said this before, in the SEAL Teams, one of the things that makes us good in the SEAL Teams, we have to deal with water, and water is a pain in the ass. It ruins things, it floods things, it stops things, it stops guns from working, it stops radios from working, it stops humans from working. You drown in it, it's, water is very tough to deal with, it's a very harsh environment, especially the ocean water. I, I used to say that every time you go in the water, it's a real world op, cause you can get killed, you can get killed in the ocean, you can get killed in the ocean today. If you make the wrong moves.

• 36:08Jocko Willink?

  So you definitely need to be comfortable in the water, now, first things first.

• 36:14Jocko Willink?

  Water will kill you.

• 36:18Jocko Willink?

  Water will kill you, you will die. If you make mistakes in the water, you will die. So whoever is, wrote this question, and whoever's gonna heed my advice here.

• 36:30Jocko Willink?

  Note and be advised that water will kill you. So when you swim, you gotta have a lifeguard. And there's a couple examples, a guy in my, that I went through SEAL training with, who was a stud, a complete stud. He was the honor man of my bud's class. And a great guy. I mean, not just, I mean, it's cool to be honor man. It means you're a good athlete, but this guy was also beyond that. Was just a great guy, extremely motivated. His name was Keith Kamura. And he was practicing breath holds. As he was, this is, you know, after we went through SEAL training and he had gone to a SEAL team and served and he'd come back to be a SEAL instructor.

• 37:15Jocko Willink?

  And he was practicing breath holds during a, during an evolution for the students. And while all that was going on, you know, they're doing stuff with the students and he's down there practicing breath holds.

• 37:29Speaker 01

  Like on his own kind?

• 37:30Jocko Willink?

  He was on his, well, he was in the group, but on his own, if that makes sense. So there's a big evolution going on. And while this big evolution going on, he's kind of doing his own thing.

• 37:40Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 37:41Jocko Willink?

  And he died. He was doing breath holds. He stayed down there. He had a shallow water blackout and he, he died and was awful. I mean, what a, what an incredible, incredible guy.

• 37:56Jocko Willink?

  Um, we also had some SEALs, 2015, um, that were in Virginia Beach. You know, young studs getting after it, training super hard. And

• 38:12Jocko Willink?

  they, they both died in, in the, in the pool in Virginia Beach. And again, you know, these are frogmen. These guys are pushing themselves and you know, trying to make themselves better and they pushed that envelope and that's what SEALs do and they pushed it. And they went over the line and unfortunately they were training together at the same time. So.

• 38:34Jocko Willink?

  You gotta be safe. You you got, don't train alone. And don't train with someone that's doing the same thing as you at the same, you can't endure the same thing together. You know, it's a real, it's a real simple rule. It's one up, one down. So if it's your turn to train, I stay out. And then you do your evolutions and then when you're done, okay, now it's my turn to train, you stay out. And you watch me. It's one up, one down. That's the, that has to be the standard. Again, people don't, don't play around with the water. You know, I've had shallow water blackouts and you, they just come and that's it. You're unconscious and and if you, if someone's not there to drag you out, you're gonna drown, you're gonna die. That's it.

• 39:15Jocko Willink?

  And they, again, it's sort of, you you can tell that they're coming a little bit and you get used to them. But it's sort of like getting choked out in jiu jitsu.

• 39:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:24Jocko Willink?

  You know, you've been choked out before, right?

• 39:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, many times.

• 39:26Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, so you think you're gonna make it.

• 39:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:30Jocko Willink?

  And then, and then you don't.

• 39:31Speaker 01

  And you can push it too. That's the thing, especially when you're training, like when I'm trying to get stronger at like chokes and you wanna be, if you have some fight in you, you know, you wanna be able to to to fight, you know, so you push it a lot of times, especially when you have experience. You push it a little bit and then sometimes, cause you just gotta go, you can feel the blackout coming, but once you go right past that point, you're, you can't tap anymore and you go out. Jiu jitsu's safe, cause usually the guy can feel you go out and they let you go, but bro, in the water.

• 39:58Jocko Willink?

  It's like, you know what the event horizon is in a black hole?

• 40:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:01Jocko Willink?

  That little, there's a line. If you go over that line, you're done. And that's exactly what happens with your consciousness. You're, you, you, you, you can see that line. You're watching, you're like, oh, I'm gonna be okay, I'm gonna make it. And then all of a sudden it's gone. And you're over the line, you're in the black hole and that's it. So be very, very careful when you're doing this. Always have a swim buddy, swim of the lifeguard, all that stuff.

• 40:21Jocko Willink?

  Now, the question, back to the question, beyond the safety portion, is how do you get more comfortable in the water? You spend time in the water. Swim, surf, spearfishing, snorkeling, scuba diving, survival floating, breath holds, treading water. Just, that's how you get comfortable in the waters by being in the water. Give yourself little challenges. Swim with, swim with t-shirts in your hands, swim with your clothes on, swim, de-jock while you're not, just all those things to get to be in the water and do things and swim and that's how you get more comfortable in the water. And you'll rapidly increase your ability to be in the water and handle yourself in the water and you'll be much more calm in the water.

• 41:01Jocko Willink?

  And the reason I said this is a universal question is because it's the same thing with just about everything else that you're gonna do. It's the same thing with swimming, it's the same thing with doing, you wanna get good at pull-ups? Do more pull-ups. You wanna get better at public speaking? Get up and start doing public speaking. Same thing with shooting, like when people first start shooting and they're all intimidated by firearms. It's because they're not used to them. So spend time shooting, spend time around guns, you'll get used to the muzzle flash, you'll get used to the concussion of the noise. And you will be more comfortable about it. So that's what you need to do in the water. You spend more time in the water. And, and you'll get better at it, you'll get more comfortable. Again, be careful when you're doing it. The water, the water will kill you. Hey, what does de-jock mean?

• 41:43Jocko Willink?

  Oh, uh, it's a term, as far as I know, comes from BUDs, from SEAL training. Where when you put your scuba gear on, they call it jocking up. So jock up in your gear and then it, in the SEAL teams, it becomes, it's, it's a term that means any type of getting your clothes on. Getting your gear on, getting your clothes on, getting dressed. Putting your jock strap on. That's what it is. I don't know if that's where it comes from. I think, I think it is. You, you can, but they used to play, you know, you remember that like little kids game, Hangman? Yeah. Where you fill in the letters? Well, whenever the class would make a mistake, they would put, they'd have jock up written on the board.

• 42:28Jocko Willink?

  And they'd put one letter in, and then when you spelled out all of jock up, then they would make you do jock up drills, which are not fun.

• 42:36Speaker 01

  But it's just putting on stuff, your gear.

• 42:38Jocko Willink?

  Yes, but the jock up drills involve ridiculously stupid and hard calisthenic workouts with your entire gear loadout on.

• 42:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 42:51Jocko Willink?

  They would, you know what bear crawling is?

• 42:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:55Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, so you had to bear crawl with twin seventy-two tanks on, you know, we bear crawled to the chow hall. I mean, it's a mile, it's, I think, I think our instructors got in trouble for making us bear crawl with.

• 43:08Speaker 01

  You can't do that, it's inhumane.

• 43:09Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, they were like, the Geneva Convention called and said, bro, no.

• 43:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, we had to bear crawl, in football, we had to. There was an incident in camp in football at UH one time, and where we were supposed to be, you know, sleeping, you know, lights out, whatever.

• 43:31Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 43:31Speaker 01

  And the, a guy who remained, no, his name is Tupu Alu Alu, this is like when I was young, I was like a freshman, Tupu Alu, Somali guy. And he, I, I can say his name now because he admitted it afterwards, but before they were like.

• 43:48Jocko Willink?

  We would have had to keep his.

• 43:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's totally classified.

• 43:51Jocko Willink?

  Tupu getting after, what did Tupu do, what did he do?

• 43:54Speaker 01

  Okay, so, people were messing about, we were supposed to be in bed, so security comes or whatever, and like, we all, everyone hides, some say, we, it wasn't me, I wasn't doing it. And someone threw a sandwich at the security guard, hit him, and it was this big incident. The sa- you know, in and of itself, throwing sandwiches to the security guard, that's more funny than anything, but we're supposed to be in bed, you know, we're a football team, you can't do that, you know, so it was like, hey, who, who was this? If no one admits it, everyone's gonna get punished, so, of course, everyone gets punished. We're doing bear crawls across, across the field, non-stop. So it was like, I can relate to the bear crawl to the chow hall. It wasn't like, okay, bear crawl to here, and then, it was like, you're going all the way, I don't even know how many times we did it.

• 44:39Speaker 01

  One guy was like, cry- was crying, saying, face up, whoever did it, face up, crying, grown men, crying.

• 44:46Jocko Willink?

  I don't like that guy.

• 44:47Speaker 01

  Nonetheless, so yeah, bear crawl, that's rough.

• 44:50Jocko Willink?

  Bear calls no joke.

• 44:52Speaker 01

  But I think jockeying up is because you wear your jock strap when you get in the game. Like a jock strap, jock, you know?

• 44:58Jocko Willink?

  Maybe one of the old UDT guys that listens to the podcast will contact me and let me know where jock up came from.

• 45:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's my money, my money's on that.

• 45:07Jocko Willink?

  It's because of jock straps.

• 45:09Speaker 01

  Gearing up, jock strap is like the manly, you know? I'm telling you.

• 45:14Jocko Willink?

  I'm not going down this road. Well, I'm not, it's not that, I'm already down the road, I can't help that, you dragged me along. But I'm not going to agree with you, I think you're wrong.

• 45:21Speaker 01

  Alright, there you go. You have that right. Um, yeah, there you go.

• 45:29Speaker 01

  Next question?

• 45:29Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, let's go to the next question, I don't want to talk about that one anymore, you're, you're losing me on it.

• 45:34Speaker 01

  What's the dichotomy in having an ego? When is it good? And when does it get to a point where you have to check your ego?

• 45:45Jocko Willink?

  Okay, so... The dichotomy is pretty clear. Um, ego drives you, absolutely, it makes you want to win, it makes you want to perform well, it makes you proud of your achievements, makes you want to be number one.

• 46:04Jocko Willink?

  And those are all good things, and I fully, fully have those, myself. I mean, my ego will keep me up at night, trying to win at some ridiculously meaningless thing in the world.

• 46:18Jocko Willink?

  Especially when I was younger. It was kind of stupid. Um, but... The ego can also get you in trouble, get you in trouble really, really quickly. For instance, I mean, you can, your ego can make you sabotage your coworker that's on the same team as you, so that you can outshine him, right? That's ego. You can vote down a plan. A better plan, because that plan isn't yours. That's your ego. You can...

• 46:55Jocko Willink?

  Chase some material items, some thing, something that you don't really need. Maybe in some cases, it might even be something that you don't actually even want.

• 47:09Jocko Willink?

  And it's just fueling your ego, which is, which is a really bizarre thing to see. It can make you step on your subordinates, right? It can make you undercut your peers, because that ego flares up. It can make you, your ego can make you dig in, dig in on some stupid ideas that you've had. Those are the kind of things that ego do, and all those things are negative. So, that's pretty clear to me where ego starts going sideways. And, and I would say, even though like my ego always fueled me to, to, to wanna win, but I never was that out of control where I was like screw, I'm screwing people over because I wanted to win.

• 47:53Jocko Willink?

  No, I wouldn't do that. That wasn't part of my personality, wasn't, I'm not that. Plus, I was never really naturally good at much. So, it wasn't like I was gonna win. The only way I could beat people and things was by outworking them.

• 48:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:04Jocko Willink?

  Other than that, I, it would be hard for me.

• 48:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, usually that kind of person who, like you, well, the two kinds of people. One, who, who is down to like screw someone over, or basically cheat. You're cheating is what you're doing. It's like, I wanna be here. I, they don't necessarily wanna quote unquote win, because if you cheat, it's not really winning. You know, the whole benefit of winning is like overcoming certain things, you know? But when you cheat, it's like you're not, you cheated, you know, whatever. So, it's less about, it's more about you understanding really what winning is. And that's what you like, the winning, you know?

• 48:43Jocko Willink?

  Yes, yes.

• 48:44Speaker 01

  That's why, so like people who undermine, you know, cheat and do this stuff, it's like, they don't wanna win.

• 48:49Jocko Willink?

  I'll give you a good case in point. When, I remember when, when I was going to SEAL training, there was people, there was guys that would like brag about it. They were going through the same SEAL training class as me, same BUDS class as me, but they would like brag about it and like you could hear them talking to, let's say, some random person. Like, "Yeah, we're on the SEAL training." I wasn't bragging about that. I was like, "Hey man, I'm lucky I'm here." And- I realized that a lot of those people quit because they were comfortable. They they just being able to say like SEAL training, they were already good with it. They were like, oh yeah, I did what I'm supposed to do.

• 49:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:24Jocko Willink?

  So me, I I didn't want to do that. I didn't want to say anything until I made it through.

• 49:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:30Jocko Willink?

  And so, um, yeah, so, so what I'm saying is similar to what you're saying. They were satisfied just by being able to throw that out there. That was enough for them. So for someone that's willing to cheat and win or they're eat, they're willing to step on someone. Man, that doesn't feel good to me. That's never felt good to me. Like, if I gotta step on someone, I don't even want it. I don't want that victory. Don't want it.

• 49:52Speaker 01

  So it's like they wanna, some people wanna look like they won and other people wanna really win.

• 49:58Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, of course.

• 49:59Speaker 01

  That's really the difference, huh?

• 50:00Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Yeah. So back to the ego point, when you start feeling like you're doing some of those negative things, that's when you gotta put your ego in check. That's what you gotta support your coworker instead of sabotaging. That's when you gotta pick the best plan out there instead of picking your own. That's when you say, you know what? I'm happy with what I have instead of chasing things that I don't even need. You know what I'm talking about when people like, if you were, there's been something that you wanted, even though you actually didn't even really want it, but you just want it just because you, because it's pure ego. Pure ego.

• 50:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, like when you're in the weight room, well, in growing up, like lifting weights, some guys would do this where they'd be lifting weights and you can see a lot of times in these like, like a 24 hour fitness situation where you be lift, guys will be lifting weights and then one guy was, he's like, dang, he's lifting kind of a lot. You'll see someone all of a sudden be doing that same exercise, like trying to lift more than that. He doesn't know him, not lifting with him. He wasn't even doing that exercise. It wasn't even his workout, but he'll like try to do it, you know? Bro, you weren't even doing that exercise. You weren't doing bench today. And now you're doing bench, you know? Chasing something you don't even want.

• 51:15Jocko Willink?

  Don't even want it that day. Don't need it that day.

• 51:20Jocko Willink?

  That's another big one is like when I talk about subordinates, instead of cutting down your subordinates, you start lifting them up. You start making them shine. You start giving them the credit, making them shine even brighter than yourself. That's, that's the beautiful thing. When you can put your ego in check and you can make that happen. Making your own boss look good. Having an open mind to new ideas. Those are the things, that's how you put your ego in check. Those are the things that

• 51:51Jocko Willink?

  those are the, those are the hallmarks of having your ego in check. Now, sometimes people don't know when they need to put their ego in check. And I think there's one really easy indicator to know when you need to just at least like do an assessment of your ego. And that is when you come into conflict with another person. Cause, cause a huge percentage of conflicts that you have with other people are ego. Yeah. Are their ego. And so when you feel that conflict, whether it's about positioning, whether it's about an idea, whether it's about a plan, whether it's about, I don't know what it's about. But if I'm in conflict with you on something, immediately I'm gonna say, okay, wait a second.

• 52:36Jocko Willink?

  Is this your ego talking? Or are you, is, is this business or is this ego? Yeah. And if you do that, you will find yourself, you know, any form of frustration or anger that you have, just check your ego. And there's a good chance that you're gonna be able to take that thing, get a hold of it and aggressively put it in check. It's hard. Your ego is a tough bastard. Yeah. Your ego, man, that thing wants the spotlight. It wants to shine. It wants the glory and it's, it's driven. You know, that's a lot of you high achievers out there. That's what's driving you and it's not a bad thing. So when it comes time to harness that bad boy, it can be a challenge. But it's very rewarding when you make it happen.

• 53:21Jocko Willink?

  It's, it's rewarding in a long-term gratification. It's not immediate gratification. Generally, you know, you're giving, you're giving your support, it's all the credit for some, for some project that they did. And, and you know that, you could actually know that you did the bulk of the work, but you give it away. That's not gratifying immediately. Immediately it's like, yeah, that's right. Put the accolades on my head, boss.

• 53:48Jocko Willink?

  That's immediate gratification that you're looking for. No, you say, "Hey boss, you know what? Don't put the accolades on my head. Look at my team. Let's crown them because they really did a great job. And I'm just here to help them." There's no gratification in that. But when you get feedback, a week later, a month later, six months later, people want to come and work for your team. Now your team gets picked for another project. That's the long-term gratification that you get when you keep your ego in check.

• 54:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:19Jocko Willink?

  Keep that ego in check, people.

• 54:21Speaker 01

  Yep. This year I took extreme ownership over every detail and mistake on, uh, of the roofing company I was starting.

• 54:31Speaker 01

  But instead of inspiring my employees, they just got entitled. Because of the, because of this, the business almost ran into the ground. In addition, I got so worn down that my resolve almost collapsed. In your estimation, what did I do wrong?

• 54:50Jocko Willink?

  So, this is an example. I don't see this all the time, but I do see it sometimes. And what we have here is, you know, clearly, guy steps up and says, "You know what? I'm gonna take ownership. I'm gonna take extreme ownership," which is what I'm always encouraging people to do. Leif and I wrote the book. We called the book Extreme Ownership because that is the fundamental principle that we see as the common trait that makes people successful when they're taking ownership instead of blaming other people. So, that's what this guy did with the roofing company. "Hey, I'm gonna take ownership of all the mistakes."

• 55:23Jocko Willink?

  Now, the problem there is,

• 55:27Jocko Willink?

  with the, the, the concept of extreme ownership, it means taking ownership of the mistakes, taking ownership of the problems, but it doesn't stop there. That is simply where you start, because the real, true ownership that you need to take is you need to take extreme ownership of the solutions. Of implementing the solutions of creating and implementing the solutions. That's what you need to take ownership of. So in a situation like this, like for instance, oh, I took ownership of everything. So my team became entitled.

• 56:05Jocko Willink?

  Now, now, first of all, in, in that statement in its own, right? If I say, hey, we failed because my team became entitled, what did I just do? Blame them. I blame them for becoming entitled. Why did they become entitled? I allowed them to. What am I going to do to solve that? I either have to train the way I'm treating them. Maybe there's a couple of cancers in there that have that attitude and I need to fire those people. Or replace them or get them retrained or put some ownership on them. So that they realize, oh, okay. Oh, I'm going to get, I'm going to lose my job if we're, we're going to fail this mission or the companies go out of business. If I don't do this right. So you gotta, that's the mistake there. What do I, so you've identified the problem, you've taken ownership of it. Hey, we, we, hey, we gotta make sure we get our jobs done on time.

• 56:48Jocko Willink?

  Okay, boss, well, you didn't order the gear in time and you didn't do this and now we're behind. So it's not our fault. And by the way, pay me. If that's the attitude your employees have, you got a problem as a leader. So what is the problem? How do you fix that problem?

• 57:03Jocko Willink?

  The, the, the thing is about ownership is taking ownership of the problem doesn't fix the problem. Right? It doesn't fix the problem. You still have to come up with the solution.

• 57:17Jocko Willink?

  So

• 57:20Jocko Willink?

  that's what it is. When we talk about extreme ownership, we're definitely not just talking about owning the problems. But like I said, owning the solutions and owning the implementation and actually carry to its, to its furthest stretch to, to its furthest outcome. That's where you have to take extreme ownership of. And this is the most important part. And obviously I need to make this clear enough because this should be something that everyone fundamentally understands. When they talk about extreme ownership, the, the most important part for you to own as a leader is the outcome. Is the end state. If you are not meeting your end state, that's what you have to take ownership of. That's what you have to make happen. So

• 58:05Jocko Willink?

  That's it. You know, when your, when your company's not doing the right thing, yeah, you gotta take ownership of the mistakes that happen. You got, you got employees that are acting wrong? Yeah. Hey, it's my fault that they're acting wrong. You got deadlines that you're missing? Yes, it's my fault that we missed the deadlines. Now you gotta go back and ask yourself the question, how do I make the deadlines? How do I fix those employees? You gotta solve those problems that are out there. Otherwise, extreme ownership doesn't do anything for you. And we've talked about this before as well. And that is that it's taking ownership of things is not a, it's not a, a shelter. It's not, it doesn't provide shelter. It doesn't. It's, and some people think it does. They go, hey, you know what? Hey, we missed a, we missed a, we, we failed on our mission. It's my fault.

• 58:49Jocko Willink?

  Okay. So, you know, let's move on. No, no, no. Actually, no, we don't move on. You failed in your mission. How are you gonna fix it? Extreme ownership does not, does not give you any mercy whatsoever. That's what's hard about it. And by the way, the thing that, the thing that extreme ownership that makes it hard is because the, the previous question, it attacks your ego. Because when you say, hey, guys, this is my fault, you're not just saying, hey, guys, this is my fault. Let's move on. You're saying, this is truly my fault. We failed because of me. And these are the things we're gonna do to fix it. And I'm gonna own it until we get it done.

• 59:27Speaker 01

  Yeah. Dang. Yeah. That, it kinda makes sense. Like, it is one of those all or nothing things, you know, where extreme ownership, it's just funny how you put it, you know, where you're like, I did my extreme ownership. The rest is up to you guys kinda thing. You can't really do that.

• 59:43Jocko Willink?

  And this question is, is, is a really good question. And I appreciate it because you can see the guy that asked it, he clearly is motivated, wants to do well. But he, he, again, my fault for not explaining this well enough, he thought that just taking ownership would solve the problem. No. You have to take ownership and solve the problem. Matter of fact, the, the taking ownership part is the initial part that lets the rest of it happen. And, and that's why we emphasize it so much. Cause most people, they just don't take ownership. They're not even close. This guy, he's close. He's taken ownership. Now he's gotta realize, okay, I took ownership. I realized that it's my fault. And again, it's not just him saying,

• 1:00:24Jocko Willink?

  Uh, uh, well, it's my, it's my company, so it's my fault. And so I, I hope this works out. No, I don't hope anything. You fix it. You make it happen. And I, again, I appreciate this question because I could see in his earnest asking of the question like he's like, man, what, what did I do wrong? What did I do wrong? Here's what you did wrong, you know, you, you made the first step, which is the hardest step. That's the positive here. One of the most positive things about this guy is he's made the hardest step, which is, okay, this is my fault.

• 1:00:55Jocko Willink?

  The follow on is what he missed. Now, how do I fix it? What do I do to implement it? You got lackadaisical, entitled employees. That is your fault. So how do you fix them? Because if you're lackadaisical and entitled around me, that means I'm doing something wrong. That means you don't understand the mission. You don't understand why we're doing what we're doing. You don't understand why it's important to meet the deadline on this roof. So we can move on to another one, so that we can collect money to pay for our next one. There's all kinds of reasons that you could tell people why these things are important. And if you have people that you, they know exactly why they're doing what they're doing and they still aren't getting in the game. You need to find some more people to come and work for you. Some different people, some people with better attitudes and bring them on board with the right attitude.

• 1:01:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, this, um, even to add to why this is such a good question is this is exactly what people are scared of with the extreme ownership. It's like, dang, if I take extreme ownership over everything, they're going to take advantage or they're going to, you know, be entitled or whatever. That I think, I mean, even thinking about it, that's what I'd be afraid of. That's what I am afraid of, you know?

• 1:01:57Jocko Willink?

  And, and I will tell you, having done this my whole career, when you take ownership of things, people don't, there, there is a small chance. There's a couple of knuckleheads like these, the idiots that this guy has working for him that are entitled. Now, I shouldn't say that because he may have provided the environment to become, like, he might've been the easy button. And every time they say, hey, boss, I can't fini-, like, hey, boss, I can't come in late today. Can you finish up that roof by yourself? And he's like, hey, you know what? I'm gonna take ownership of this, right? He goes, okay, I'm gonna take ownership. Don't worry about it. I got it. Now he does that four days in a row. He's worked 16 hour days. He's starting to get broken mentally and physically. You ever done roofing before?

• 1:02:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:02:38Jocko Willink?

  Roofing? Yeah. That's hard work, especially in the summertime when the blazing sun, 14, 16 hour day. I had to do, I pulled a chimney off my, a little chimney off my roof one time. I thought I was gonna be able to just patch the roof. No, I had to strip like a third of my roof on my house. And then I'm up there, we got rainstorms coming. I'm up there, okay, I gotta roof this whole thing in the next, what is it? 18 hours? Get some. Yeah. So roofing is hard work.

• 1:03:05Speaker 01

  Yes, sir.

• 1:03:06Jocko Willink?

  And if if you don't take the, if you don't, if you don't get these employees in the right mindset, if they're not part of the team, if they're not on board, how are you gonna fix that? If you, and what I was gonna say is if you become the easy button all the time, then that allows them, it fosters the attitude of, hey, you know what? Uh, this is on Jocko. He's the one that, he's still gotta pay me. Like, no, actually, let me tell you how it really works. You know how I pay you regardless of what you do? Well, eventually I don't pay you anything because you don't work here? And I don't have a business anymore. So if that's where you're at, I don't want you here. And I will do this myself and I'll, I'll schedule my jobs appropriately so I can do it all myself. If you wanna get in the game and be part of this team, which you should, then

• 1:03:50Jocko Willink?

  this is what I need from you. Here's the expectations. This is why. Because next year, this year, we did 14 roofs. Next year, I wanna do double that. And that means I'm gonna get you a crew that's gonna work for you and you're gonna make, bump your pay up a little bit. I'm gonna get you moving along and get you promoted. Maybe sometime you'll have two or three teams working for you. Do you wanna do that? Or do you wanna continue being the guy that's hauling shingles all day? Are you in the game with me or not? Are you part of this gig? See, so you gotta get in their heads. You gotta get them out of that mindset and into the right mindset so that you can dominate.

• 1:04:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, I feel like that extreme ownership kind of provides that too, you know, where if, like how you've always said, if you're like blaming them, overtly blaming them, they're like, oh, this guy's not on my team. They have that feeling. But if they're like, if he's taking the responsibility, it's like, oh dang, this guy's kinda on my team. Yeah, I do wanna do all that.

• 1:04:41Jocko Willink?

  Classic, classic example. You're right. Classic example. If I approach you and I'm like, Echo, dude, you're just entitled.

• 1:04:50Jocko Willink?

  You're entitled. You don't have a good attitude. What attitude do you have now?

• 1:04:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:04:55Jocko Willink?

  What attitude do you have now? Now you're like, oh, what are you talking about? I'm entitled. What do you say? I'm entitled? Yeah, you're damn right. I'm entitled because look at what I've been doing. I've been, no, whereas if I, if I take a different approach with you and say, man, look, I think you've got a lot of potential. You know, I think you've got a lot of, no, you've got a lot of things going on at home and I know you've got that girlfriend and I know you're doing this and that. But you know what? I think you've got some potential here. Let me show you what it's going to lead. You know, I know you don't want to be carrying shingles for the rest of your life and on your knees, smacking nails, right? But maybe you could be running a crew. And this is how I want to grow. Do you kind of want to get in the game with me? Cause I think you might, you see what I'm saying? That's all it takes.

• 1:05:29Speaker 01

  You understand me.

• 1:05:30Jocko Willink?

  Yes.

• 1:05:34Jocko Willink?

  Good question. Thanks and good luck with that company.

• 1:05:38Jocko Willink?

  Small business owners getting after it. It's hard running a small business. It's hard work. You are the buck stops with you, whether you like it or not. Cause even if you, hey, you know what? Even if you don't want to take extreme ownership, if you're a small business owner, eventually you, you.

• 1:05:52Speaker 01

  It's gonna get put on you.

• 1:05:53Jocko Willink?

  It's on you. It is on you. So it's, it's, uh, it's great. I love, I love the small business owners, uh, getting after it out there.

• 1:06:01Speaker 01

  Next question. Thoughts on how to deal with toxic slash negative people?

• 1:06:09Jocko Willink?

  Oh, those people. Yeah. So first of all, it's important to recognize that those people exist. Everywhere and everybody's got to deal with me. If you run into one of these people, don't get all surprised as if they're a lone ranger out there being negative. No, there's negative rangers all over the place. So I, we gotta, you gotta know how to deal with them. And it's. So, so when you're dealing with someone like that, first of all, confronting them.

• 1:06:42Jocko Willink?

  Of course, as you can probably predict, is not usually the best option because all you're doing is you're you're attacking their heavily defended position, which which is not good. So one of the techniques that I use when dealing with these kind of people is I absorb. I absorb their critiques. I absorb their toxicity. I absorb their negativity. Now, obviously, this takes a little bit of strength, right? You can't be taking stuff personally. You have to, in order to learn how to absorb things, you gotta say, okay, I'm just doing this for the team, right? But it looks like, for instance, when they say, oh, this is horrible.

• 1:07:24Jocko Willink?

  I don't say, no, it's not horrible. I don't just go right back at them. I say, yeah, you know what? We definitely got some room for improvement, right? So I kind of just deflect it and I kind of just absorb it, right? Absorb it a little bit. Because what they want to do is they're lashing out, right? They're throwing the negativity. They like those explosions. They like to see it hit something and blow up. They, that's what they're doing. That's how they roll. So you're going to absorb it. You're going to catch it and pull it in, right? So when they're like, we can never do this. I don't say, we can absolutely do this. No, because you didn't, you're just, you're going to create the explosion that they're looking for. Instead, I'm saying, you know what? We might not be able to do it. I'm going to give it a, I'm going to give it a good, solid try. I'm going to try and make it happen, right? So we're just deflecting it a little bit and they're going to throw

• 1:08:07Jocko Willink?

  you some other negative thing and, you know, if they say, this is stupid. I don't say, no, this is the most brilliant thing I've ever seen. I don't do that. Don't go head to head. I'm going to say, you know what? There's definitely some room for improvement the next time around. You're right. A hundred percent. Ooh. Yeah, you just got deflected. And those reactions, they disarm these ultra negative people and

• 1:08:39Jocko Willink?

  It kinda takes their, their fight from them and it also makes them look like emotional extremists. So with the group, right, when somebody calls that out in the group, then they're coming across all extreme and you just absorb it and negate it a little bit. It negates their view, or I shouldn't say negate, because negate means like totally cross out. When you just absorb it and deflect it a little bit, the rest of the team goes, oh, you know, oh, Echo, he's just super emotional, he's a negative. They see him for what he is, which is helpful for you, right? And then once I'm done absorbing their attacks and taking some of those shots, no big deal, then I'm gonna start to override them somewhat with some, with some positivity,

• 1:09:23Jocko Willink?

  which is gonna be directed at them, right? So they were all negative, but I'm gonna say, hey, what you did there really worked well. Or, you know, hey, you good job on that, I don't know, I never could have figured that out like you did, right? So I'm gonna start, start getting in their head a little bit and start filling their head with some positive stuff, that's right, that's what I'm gonna do. Man, you figured that out better than anybody, nicely done. And I'm bringing them from the dark side over to the light, that's what I'm doing, I'm bringing them over. And actually, I used to have the funniest, uh, one of my favorite guys in the SEAL teams.

• 1:10:06Jocko Willink?

  He was my, he was my first deployment to Iraq, he was the senior enlisted guy in our task units. And actually, we're just bros, but when one of us would start getting a little off the reservation on something, like getting all addicted to some idea or something, the other one, we would, we would be looking, like, I'd be telling him, like, we need to do this, and this is bullshit, we need to do, and he'd look at me like, he'd be like, come back. Come back to the light, come on, we're over here, it's okay, we're all gonna be okay. So when I would start getting negative, he would start pulling me back to the light, right? And same thing with, with me with him, he would get, he would get all, you know. Get all, matter of fact, he's the guy, um, remember when we talked about, well,

• 1:10:51Speaker 01

  Simplify, repeat?

• 1:10:52Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, no, simplify, amplify and repeat. That's him. That's him. He would also have to bring me back from the dark side and I have to do it to him too, if he started getting a little too negative.

• 1:11:05Jocko Willink?

  Good times, but the, the, the last thing I want to do with someone that's being super negative is I am actually want to, I want to give them some ownership. I want to give them some ownership, some ability to make changes, some ability to have some kind of a positive impact on the mission. So I'm going to pick something that I think they can step up and handle, right? Something that is within their grasp and realm and ability and I'm going to give it to them. And, and then I'm going to give them, I'm going to give them, I'm going to kind of overload them with help and with assistance and with guidance to make sure that they win.

• 1:11:45Jocko Willink?

  And that's going to start spinning them in a more positive direction.

• 1:11:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:11:50Jocko Willink?

  So that's my way to deal with the big negative people out there. Just absorb and slowly counter.

• 1:11:59Speaker 01

  I liked it how you're, you'd be like, hey, I like how you figured that out. And I said this before, but a good one is to be like, to say, hey, that's what I like about you. You're real, whatever, X, Y, Z, you know, you're not feeling like, because people said that to me, that's what I like about you. You're real, whatever, you know, and it makes you want to like continue to be that, you know, and you're like, hey, he thinks I'm, you know, a problem solver or something. I'm going to be aware and just continue to solve problems, you know?

• 1:12:26Jocko Willink?

  You, you put the self fulfilling prophecy in their own head, the positive things that you want them to do.

• 1:12:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. Yeah, that's a good one.

• 1:12:36Speaker 01

  Jocko.

• 1:12:37Jocko Willink?

  Next question?

• 1:12:38Speaker 01

  Next question, Jocko.

• 1:12:39Jocko Willink?

  Let's do it.

• 1:12:40Speaker 01

  I'm an INTJ personality. My drive slash ideas often cause friction with superiors. How can I use my strengths without creating division?

• 1:12:53Jocko Willink?

  Okay, I, so for this one, I, I kinda had to look up

• 1:12:59Jocko Willink?

  this stuff to remember exactly what it was and the, like, the INJT or INTJ stuff is

• 1:13:07Jocko Willink?

  in, introverted intuitive thinking judging, this is part of this, um, Meyers-Briggs type indicator that refers to one of sixteen psychological types, right? So it's sort of a graph that you can figure out these, what type of, of sixteen different psychological types that there are. And so, so for this one in particular, this INJT, which like I said is introverted, intuitive, thinking and judging. And I went to the interwebs for this. Sure. And it said that as an INTJ,

• 1:13:50Jocko Willink?

  your primary mode of living is focused internally, internally, where you take things in primarily via your intuition. Your secondary mode is external, where you deal with things rationally and logically.

• 1:14:06Jocko Willink?

  So, speaking of self-fulfilling prophecies, this is kind of one of them. And, uh, you know, as far as I'm concerned, your personality and anyone's personality is not set in stone by, by any stretch. And of course, can you have some natural tendencies as a person?

• 1:14:29Jocko Willink?

  Of course, you, you do have some natural tendencies. And if your brain was on autopilot, you would steer towards those personality traits even more, but luckily, our brain is not on autopilot and you have your hands on the wheel and you can control your mind and you can in this case, you know, step back and, and, and get a grip on things that, you know, according to the question, that cause friction. Right? If,

• 1:15:02Jocko Willink?

  as, if as an INJT, you are supposedly too demanding, and these are little quotes that they had, if you're too demanding or not open to other people or not open to other ideas, here's what you do, real simple.

• 1:15:17Jocko Willink?

  Get less demanding. Right?

• 1:15:20Speaker 01

  Probably so.

• 1:15:20Jocko Willink?

  If you have a hard time listening to other people, listen to other people. If you, and this was another quote I got from the INJT personality matrix. If you are supposed to have a low tolerance of emotion of in others, then get more tolerance for emotions in others. This isn't hard. You identified what the issues are. You've heard me say this all the time. Listen to other people, treat them with respect. These things are not doing that, so do them. That's, that's really simple. There's no reason to you, for you to fulfill this prophecy of being a person that's not open to others' ideas.

• 1:16:03Jocko Willink?

  A person that's not, that has low tolerance for other people. There's, there's no reason for you to be overly demanding. You don't have to be this way. Just because that's your personality type allegedly, that doesn't mean you have to be that way. Hey, this is kind of like, um, you know, the, the, the horoscope signs? Right?

• 1:16:22Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:16:22Jocko Willink?

  And I, do people even talk about those anymore?

• 1:16:24Speaker 01

  I don't know, my dad, well, what is it horoscope or astrology? Is that the same thing?

• 1:16:30Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it's the same thing. Yeah, well, you read your horoscope, but the,

• 1:16:33Speaker 01

  It's based on astrology.

• 1:16:35Jocko Willink?

  It's based on the, the magic of astrology.

• 1:16:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, uh, yeah, people still do that.

• 1:16:39Jocko Willink?

  So, so when I, well, when I, it hasn't happened in a while, but when I was younger, um, people would say, you know, like, oh, what, what sign are you? And I'd say, uh, um, you know, I'm a Scorpio. And they'd say, oh, I knew it. I could tell you were a Scorpio. You got, yeah, I totally pegged you as a Scorpio. I saw that. I go, actually, I'm, I'm not a Scorpio.

• 1:17:04Jocko Willink?

  And I'd say, you know, actually, I'm a Libra. And they'd go, oh, oh, no, no, no, yeah, for sure. You're a Libra all the way, definitely, because you have this and you're that. And I'd go, actually, I'm kidding. I'm, I'm, I'm actually a Virgo. And then they wouldn't trust me anymore and think I was a bastard and whatever, but uh, my point is according to some random Zodiac calendar, it's, you can place those like overlays on anybody and you can kind of make them fit. And that's what I'm saying is like, I'm not saying that the, that the- ENTP or ESJ or LMNOP or whatever. I'm not saying that the Meyers-Briggs thing is just wrong.

• 1:17:46Jocko Willink?

  I think it's, I think it's good to have a framework. I think it's fine to have a framework and say, oh yeah, I recognize this trait in myself, or yeah, I recognize that trait in myself, or I recognize that trait in someone else. And then you can deal with it. I think that's good. But what I don't, what I don't accept is saying, this is what I am and therefore, um, I'm not going to change. No, wrong answer. If we all just accepted who we are, you know, you, you're not going to make any progress, you know? So you find some weaknesses in your personality and you fix them. That's, that's what I'm saying. Adapt yourself, evolve, get better, stop creating fiction, friction, stop

• 1:18:26Jocko Willink?

  creating division, be humble, listen, take input, all those things. And I'll tell you one last thing is, if you really are, uh, the, the INTJ, then that means that you're smart. It means you're thinking. It means you're pragmatic. It means you're an analytical person. You're supposed to be all those things. So if you are, then realize that in order to be a successful member of the team, you need to put all those little characteristics into check.

• 1:18:59Jocko Willink?

  Pragmatically. And make it happen.

• 1:19:03Speaker 01

  Funny, I was reading about that very recently.

• 1:19:06Jocko Willink?

  About INJT and all that?

• 1:19:08Speaker 01

  The Briggs Myers. Introvert, the whole thing, introvert, extrovert. And

• 1:19:15Speaker 01

  yeah, so there's that framework and, and, but as it turns out, it's like a bell curve. Where most people are somewhere in the middle and you kind of bounce in the middle there. So there's extreme introverts for sure, extreme extroverts, but usually it's you, you're in the middle, you know? Cool. There's a framework. Cool.

• 1:19:36Speaker 01

  Another thing with that is is just like I said, the self fulfilling thing. So uh, I was like, and I always like say this just to my friends, whatever. The different like feeling a certain way. You I don't think you should have too much guilt in feeling a certain way like, you know, sometimes I'll be like dang, I've I felt like. I don't know, I felt prejudice or something like that. And it's because those feelings come from a bunch of things that that a lot of time you can't control, but behavior is different. So you can feel one thing and behave if your behavior is just based straight up on your feelings and that's like. That's kind of whack, you know, you gotta be smarter where okay, you have these natural feelings, cool. So you're an intro, I whatever, and you so yeah, you might tend to have certain types of feelings or lack of tolerant for this, or you're not tolerant for.

• 1:20:21Speaker 01

  You know, this or that. So when you're like, hey, I'm this, therefore it gives me a pass to behave this way. It's like dang, bro, you can't do that, man. And if you're intuitive, but shouldn't you kind of know that?

• 1:20:36Speaker 01

  I guess I would think I would hope so, but yeah, so again, there's a difference between like feelings and behavior. And usually I would be, you know how you say like, yeah, if you want to toughen. If you want to be tougher, be tougher. You know, a lot of times I'd be like, well, there's more to it than that, and there is really, but. Bro, in this case, in a way, bro, you can really look at it literally like that. If you have a lack of tolerance for emotional, bro, just tolerate it. Bro, you you self, I think people do self diagnose and and give themselves a pass. And I know we do kind of have, I think we do it naturally too, because I know this. I'm put it real ambiguously because I don't call anyone out, but the I know this family where. The little girls growing up, they're like.

• 1:21:20Speaker 01

  Uh, they kept telling her, hey, you're acting this way because you have a, I don't know, I forget what I think Asperger's or something, something, yeah. He goes, oh, that's just your thing, and they didn't like cultivate anything, they were just like real dismissive about it, that's it. And then now every time she acted up, she wouldn't like try to curb her behavior. She'll act up and be like, that's just my whatever, my Asperger's or whatever. That she like embraced it, still behaved, you know, in whatever way she felt like behaving and then just kind of put it on the Asperger's.

• 1:21:50Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it's mind control.

• 1:21:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, man.

• 1:21:53Jocko Willink?

  It's mind control, you got, I mean, obviously you get some people that have some significant, you know. Uh, mental problem. Okay, I understand. But like, this person that's writing a logical question, they got mind control. They just need to say, you know what? I'm gonna be more open to other people's emotions. I'm gonna listen to other people's ideas. Ready, go. Do it now.

• 1:22:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:22:15Jocko Willink?

  Oh, I'm rejecting Echo's, Echo's idea at point blank range? Okay, that's a signal. I need to not do that. Echo, I am open to your idea. Let me hear it. Right? It's that easy.

• 1:22:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's just my INTJ acting up. I gotta, you know, I gotta check that.

• 1:22:29Jocko Willink?

  Gotta check that.

• 1:22:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, the feelings versus behavior thing, um, I think is, well, it's one of those things where when you know the problem, that's like, cause this person's obviously ahead of the game, cause they know. You know, they know this is what's causing, okay, I can, you know, I can identify when I feel that stuff coming on.

• 1:22:46Jocko Willink?

  Very important.

• 1:22:46Speaker 01

  Like it's an ailment, you know? It's not a ailment. It's good. It's dope. Alright.

• 1:22:55Speaker 01

  Next question.

• 1:23:00Jocko Willink?

  Next question.

• 1:23:02Speaker 01

  Is this the last one?

• 1:23:03Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I think maybe make this the last one, huh?

• 1:23:05Speaker 01

  Okay. Jocko, we all know bad things happen to good people sometimes. How do you deal, how do you deal when those things happen to people around you?

• 1:23:16Jocko Willink?

  Very true. That sometimes

• 1:23:21Jocko Willink?

  bad things, horrible things happen to, to good people. And

• 1:23:30Jocko Willink?

  I don't, I don't know why.

• 1:23:34Jocko Willink?

  But life isn't fair. That, that's, that's the reality. And disease, cancer, and MS, and horrible diseases, and accidents, and

• 1:23:51Jocko Willink?

  these things.

• 1:23:55Jocko Willink?

  A good person in the wrong place in the wrong time can end up just a victim of, of, of fate. And and of reality.

• 1:24:16Jocko Willink?

  And it can be horrible and heart wrenching.

• 1:24:24Jocko Willink?

  But when those bad things happen

• 1:24:33Jocko Willink?

  to people around you, what are you going to do?

• 1:24:40Jocko Willink?

  How are you going to lead? Are you going to get angry? Are you gonna get frustrated? Are you gonna lash out at people? Who are you gonna lash out at anyways? Are you gonna start going down the spiral of negativity?

• 1:25:00Jocko Willink?

  Are you gonna let this horrible situation dictate the way you feel and the way you handle it?

• 1:25:12Jocko Willink?

  Are you gonna fall over and fall down and fall apart?

• 1:25:23Jocko Willink?

  Or are you going to lead? Are you going to face this issue with courage and with resolution?

• 1:25:38Jocko Willink?

  I say lead.

• 1:25:42Jocko Willink?

  Lead. Step up to the challenge. Be the one that other people look to. Absorb that impact. Absorb that negativity. Draw fire.

• 1:25:59Jocko Willink?

  Draw fire. That's when a member of a platoon, for tactical reasons, steps into the open to draw enemy fire. Maybe to give another part of his team the chance to move or distract the enemy. But that's what I say. Draw fire. Bring that pain to me. I can handle it.

• 1:26:21Jocko Willink?

  When maybe others cannot.

• 1:26:27Jocko Willink?

  When, when, when bad things are happening, I am going to try and be the one good thing. The thing standing tall that can be relied upon. Because I know that that attitude will spread. It will bolster those around me.

• 1:26:52Jocko Willink?

  And, and we will fight.

• 1:26:57Jocko Willink?

  And in fighting, we will win.

• 1:27:04Jocko Willink?

  And if not the battle, and if not the war, we will win because our spirit, it will never surrender.

• 1:27:16Jocko Willink?

  And that,

• 1:27:19Jocko Willink?

  that is the ultimate victory, to hold your head high and even, even in the face of inescapable defeat.

• 1:27:33Jocko Willink?

  To stand

• 1:27:36Jocko Willink?

  and to fight. That

• 1:27:41Jocko Willink?

  is to win.

• 1:27:52Jocko Willink?

  And I think that's all I've got for tonight.

• 1:28:00Jocko Willink?

  Echo.

• 1:28:02Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:28:03Jocko Willink?

  Let's close this thing out a little bit. Before we do that though, let's talk about how the people that are listening to this, if you want to listen to more of it, what's the best way to support the podcast? What's the best way to get in the game here with the boys? Help, to help us keep rolling this thing out. What's the best way to go?

• 1:28:27Speaker 01

  I do want to clarify, get in the game means a lot.

• 1:28:31Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:32Speaker 01

  Cause it's, you're getting in the game and flourishing in the game, really. And to do that. You may or may not need supplementation if you do. You like that? Like a little, uh, what do you call it, like a transition? Anyway, um, so supplementation, right? I need more krill oil, by the way.

• 1:28:51Jocko Willink?

  You should have told me that before we met today.

• 1:28:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, as opposed to right now. Um, nonetheless, Onnit, Onnit has best supplements. Everyone knows that, I think, I think everyone knows that by now. But if you want 10% off and you're new to Onnit, or even if you have Onnit stuff and you'll just, when you're getting more, you want 10% off, go onnit.com/jocko10%off. If you really want to step up your supplementation game, I think I mentioned this like once before, but nonetheless, it's called stay on it. So you know how I don't have krill oil right now? I didn't stay on it. So stay on it is boom, you hit, it's like the monthly one.

• 1:29:31Jocko Willink?

  Recurring.

• 1:29:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And, yeah, and in this case, it's like, um, it's good because it is one of those things that you need to come back.

• 1:29:42Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 1:29:42Speaker 01

  Every month.

• 1:29:42Jocko Willink?

  You need, you need krill oil.

• 1:29:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:29:45Jocko Willink?

  Every month.

• 1:29:46Speaker 01

  Every month, yeah. And like warrior bars, you need varying levels of warrior bars per month.

• 1:29:51Jocko Willink?

  Sometimes more, sometimes less.

• 1:29:53Speaker 01

  Sometimes less, it's true. But yeah, onnit.com/jocko10%off, boom. Check out all this stuff. Very good. Also, Amazon. Trooper Tool does not work anymore.

• 1:30:03Jocko Willink?

  The Trooper Tool has been destroyed by the Empire.

• 1:30:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, which, you know, it had a good run and, you know, cool. But nonetheless, we are still doing the Amazon thing and people do support through Amazon, which is good. Very good.

• 1:30:16Jocko Willink?

  It's awesome.

• 1:30:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, so.

• 1:30:18Jocko Willink?

  What does it cost them to support the podcast through Amazon?

• 1:30:21Speaker 01

  It costs three seconds of their time.

• 1:30:24Jocko Willink?

  That's appreciated.

• 1:30:25Speaker 01

  And that's just a one-time investment potentially. If you, you know, you save it to, you click on, okay, you go to the website, jockpodcast.com or jockostore.com. Click on the Amazon link before you do your shopping.

• 1:30:38Speaker 01

  It'll take you, you know, to the Am- to Amazon. Save that. Save the resulting links in like a bookmarks.

• 1:30:43Jocko Willink?

  Is a favorite bookmark.

• 1:30:44Speaker 01

  Favorite, yeah, yeah, man. So you can support every time you shop. Doesn't cost you nothing. That initial three seconds of your life. You know, a lot of people been doing that and that's, that's solid right there. Thank you. Um, but yeah, do it that way. You can support and also subscribe on iTunes if you haven't already and subscribe on YouTube. I know I've been saying this for a while.

• 1:31:09Jocko Willink?

  You're, you're actually, um, trust level.

• 1:31:12Speaker 01

  I know, man.

• 1:31:13Jocko Willink?

  You're, you're, you're starting to cost yourself there.

• 1:31:15Speaker 01

  I know, right?

• 1:31:16Jocko Willink?

  I think it's my fault, actually.

• 1:31:17Speaker 01

  No, man, you've been, you've been giving me trust and, bro, I haven't been throwing it back at, what, me? I don't know. Nonetheless, I know I've been saying it.

• 1:31:26Jocko Willink?

  Where you're getting, as you're gonna make more videos. Is that what you're gonna say? Now, uh, yeah. I'm gonna tell you, just trust me on this. Everybody that listens to this podcast wants you to make more videos. Don't feel any pressure about that. Maybe that's just not you. Maybe you just don't, you know, you don't wanna make it happen. That's okay. I really want you to know that we all, all of us, we all want you to make more videos. That's the vote from us troopers over here. So you got your thing. You know, hopefully you can find some time and make some badass videos.

• 1:32:02Speaker 01

  Alright, I'll, um, I'll try. Thanks for calling them badass.

• 1:32:06Jocko Willink?

  Well, they are.

• 1:32:07Speaker 01

  Shoot, that's mo- bro, that's motivating. Thanks, bro.

• 1:32:10Jocko Willink?

  Well, hopefully it can motivate you enough that you find some discipline to make some more videos for, for us.

• 1:32:16Speaker 01

  Okay, I'll, I'll do it. Um, but yes, YouTube subscribes.

• 1:32:22Jocko Willink?

  And subscribe to the podcast, right? You gotta subscribe to the podcast. That's the most basic, right?

• 1:32:27Speaker 01

  On iTunes, yeah.

• 1:32:28Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's the most basic level of, of joining.

• 1:32:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:32:32Jocko Willink?

  The movement.

• 1:32:34Speaker 01

  Yup.

• 1:32:34Jocko Willink?

  Is that Tuesday night, hmm, maybe around 11 o'clock.

• 1:32:40Speaker 01

  Depending on where you are.

• 1:32:41Jocko Willink?

  Depending on where you are. Maybe it's 2 o'clock in the morning. Wednesday night, a little icon comes up with a little one next to it. That you got a new, a new podcast to listen to, which is, which is good to go.

• 1:32:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, that one is, um, what do you call that? It's like a cue or something and what they expect is what's called the variable reward. Anyway, it's a whole different thing.

• 1:33:05Jocko Willink?

  Nonetheless. You brought up variable reward. Go. What is this? Is this like the endorphins thing where you see it and you get all excited?

• 1:33:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, kind of. So variable reward. It's like when you.

• 1:33:16Speaker 01

  It's like, uh, uh, the, really the iconic case is any like Facebook or whatever. You see the one, the, the, the alert.

• 1:33:23Jocko Willink?

  I got a message.

• 1:33:24Speaker 01

  Something. I don't know what it is. It could be someone talking good about me. It could be someone inviting me to play a game. It's a variable reward. Like it could be a, a, a, something with a high payoff, could be low payoff, but I know it's something. You know, I don't know what it is.

• 1:33:38Jocko Willink?

  Well.

• 1:33:39Speaker 01

  They get excited, they wanna click on it.

• 1:33:40Jocko Willink?

  In this case, I'm gonna go ahead and say. I'm, I know it's gonna be a high value reward. When I see that little one, I go, yes, I get to listen to the podcast. And I know some people said it was weird. I listened to the podcast. I have to listen to the podcast. So I know A, what we talked about, B, what we could do better.

• 1:33:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:33:57Jocko Willink?

  C, where we need to get better.

• 1:33:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:33:59Jocko Willink?

  All those things. So I gotta listen to it.

• 1:34:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, sometimes even when people, you know, like, um, a lot of times, K, the podcast comes out the next day. A lot of, a lot of us on Twitter are bringing up stuff, you know, that you said, or, or what I said, whatever. And you'd be like, oh, wait, yeah, I didn't know it came off like that, whether it's true or not, or whatever. It's kind of like, so when you listen to it, you're like way more in tune.

• 1:34:22Jocko Willink?

  Now, this might be a backhanded compliment or not. I'm not sure. But when you say something cool on the podcast, everybody loves it. Everyone goes nuts.

• 1:34:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:34:37Jocko Willink?

  And I'm not trying to say that you don't say cool things often, cause I, I think you say a lot of cool things, but the ones that people capture and they go, yeah, Echo said this and they do. Like they just flood the interwebs with Echo Charles's greatness.

• 1:34:50Speaker 01

  Yeah. You know what that's like? It's like. When a two-year-old says like a word or like a one and a half-year-old says a word. And it's like, oh, oh my gosh, they said, I love you. Everyone says, I love you. It's just a fact. It's not much.

• 1:35:06Jocko Willink?

  What did you say before we recorded? You said something like pretty legit before we recorded today. What did you say?

• 1:35:13Speaker 01

  I don't know.

• 1:35:13Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you do know what you said. You should say it again. You get all the people excited.

• 1:35:18Speaker 01

  Anyway. It might've been something about the Jocko store.

• 1:35:22Jocko Willink?

  It was a gem.

• 1:35:24Speaker 01

  I don't remember.

• 1:35:25Jocko Willink?

  Okay. Always record. Always record. All the tenacious D fans out there, you know exactly what I'm talking about. All right.

• 1:35:33Speaker 01

  Nonetheless, Jocko Starr, we could talk about that. That's a good way to get in the game, for sure.

• 1:35:41Speaker 01

  That's where all the shirts and stuff are.

• 1:35:43Jocko Willink?

  That was a really built up like moment.

• 1:35:45Speaker 01

  I'm saying here, and here's the thing about the shirts. We try to put some emphasis on multiple layers of shirts. You know how?

• 1:35:55Speaker 01

  What's on the shirt, there's a, there's a hidden or not so hidden meaning. So, you know, a lot of times, you know, you know the meaning. You know, if you listen to this and you're kind of in the game, you know the meaning, you know? But it's not just a shirt with a design. There's meaning behind it.

• 1:36:09Jocko Willink?

  So.

• 1:36:11Speaker 01

  That's why I say.

• 1:36:12Jocko Willink?

  So, so, so if you listen, then you know, right?

• 1:36:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 1:36:17Jocko Willink?

  And if you don't listen, then it makes no sense.

• 1:36:19Speaker 01

  Uh, it makes less sense, put it that way. But yeah, exactly right.

• 1:36:23Jocko Willink?

  There could be some, there could be some shirts that make no sense to anybody.

• 1:36:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, and that's.

• 1:36:29Jocko Willink?

  Did you see, so I, I put out the, uh, my old band when I was a kid and I tweeted this picture.

• 1:36:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:36:37Jocko Willink?

  The T-shirt that we had made, my buddy had the silk screen still. So I held it up to the light, I took a picture, I posted it. The name of the band was Bronson's Children. As in Charles Bronson.

• 1:36:50Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:36:51Jocko Willink?

  Who, when I was a kid, Charles Bronson, I, I thought that he was the man and I thought he was the man because he had awesome movies, but I didn't care about that. He was a war hero. He was a, he was in the World War II, Purple Heart, he was a tail gunner, just a, just a badass guy. And so we, me and my buddies, we thought Charles Bronson was the man, so we had our band, we called it Bronson's Children.

• 1:37:14Jocko Willink?

  So we run that shirt.

• 1:37:16Speaker 01

  Ooh, that might be something.

• 1:37:17Jocko Willink?

  People are going to, like, but who's gonna look at that and know, have any idea what that means?

• 1:37:22Speaker 01

  They're gonna be like, hey, that kinda looks like Charles Bronson.

• 1:37:24Jocko Willink?

  No, it doesn't even kinda look like Charles, it straight up looks like Charles Bronson. Yeah, it is Charles Bronson.

• 1:37:28Speaker 01

  Well, yeah, they won't know though.

• 1:37:29Jocko Willink?

  They won't know the D. By the estate of Charles Bronson.

• 1:37:32Speaker 01

  I don't know, his likeness.

• 1:37:33Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, we'd be definitely using his likeness.

• 1:37:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, uh, yeah.

• 1:37:38Jocko Willink?

  But actually, his wife, Jill Ireland, she's, she died as well. I don't know who's, I don't know, I don't know who's left of the Bronson family.

• 1:37:44Speaker 01

  I don't know.

• 1:37:46Jocko Willink?

  Maybe we could, that'd be a good way to get in contact with them, start producing their shirts and get sued by them.

• 1:37:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, they, so.

• 1:37:54Speaker 01

  Bronson's children would get sued. You know, cuz you're Bronson's children.

• 1:38:01Speaker 01

  No, no, no, variable reward there. Um, the, yup, okay. I think the shirts are cool, currently. Bronson's children one, that's, that's, that's a deep one too, that's good. Um, but then they have layers, like I said.

• 1:38:16Speaker 01

  And I'm saying that's a good way to support. If you don't like shirts, don't get the shirts. I would say, go, go, go jocko story dot com. Go there, look at the shirts. If you don't like them, don't get nothing. But just look.

• 1:38:27Jocko Willink?

  Could you get a rash guard there?

• 1:38:28Speaker 01

  If you're so inclined to get a rash guard, you can get a rash guard for sure. The rash guards are good. I think that's almost like on a factual level where they're good.

• 1:38:37Jocko Willink?

  Well, there's a lot of people that are, are, have experienced the nineteen percent increase in their jujitsu skills.

• 1:38:42Speaker 01

  Yup.

• 1:38:43Jocko Willink?

  Or strength levels.

• 1:38:44Speaker 01

  And running, so. I had a email.

• 1:38:47Jocko Willink?

  What sucks is, so now all my training partners, or at least a lot of them, are wearing trooper rash guards when they fight me. So I'm having to fight these guys that are coming at me and they all look the same. They're all monster guys with trooper t-shirt or trooper rash guards on. It's not fun. I'm getting beat up by my own people.

• 1:39:03Speaker 01

  Yup, nineteen percent more than you were.

• 1:39:05Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, nineteen percent more, oh.

• 1:39:07Speaker 01

  It's rough, man. It's rough being Jocko sometimes. The, um, but yeah, the rash guard's good. I had a good, like, kinda email conversation and, um, he's telling me how wakes up in the morning, does a run, this is in, oh man, I'm totally forgetting where it was, but just kind of the serenity contrasted with the trooper rash guard is, is nice. Nonetheless, you know, the, the rash guards are good if you're into it, jujitsu surfing, running, CrossFit.

• 1:39:36Jocko Willink?

  And I know you thought of this, and I know we thought of this, but you know, it's October right now.

• 1:39:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:39:41Jocko Willink?

  Two thousand sixteen, and we need, we need hoodies. What, what's the status? Can you please update me?

• 1:39:49Speaker 01

  Two weeks.

• 1:39:51Jocko Willink?

  So by, by Halloween?

• 1:39:54Speaker 01

  By the end of the month, yeah.

• 1:39:56Jocko Willink?

  People are gonna need trooper hoodies for Halloween, just FYI, myself included.

• 1:40:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:40:03Jocko Willink?

  We are gonna need them.

• 1:40:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, so yeah, hoodies coming out. Um.

• 1:40:10Speaker 01

  We went, I did like, it wasn't a poll. What do you do? You know, you can do a poll on Twitter. But all I said, pull over or zip up? Pull over one.

• 1:40:19Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, for sure.

• 1:40:20Speaker 01

  I, strangely, I like. Well, yeah.

• 1:40:24Jocko Willink?

  That's jacked up.

• 1:40:25Speaker 01

  Amen. Actually, I asked you a long time ago when it was just like a theory, like an idea. And you were like, pull over. But I didn't agree. But I didn't agree. I was like, pull over, cool.

• 1:40:34Jocko Willink?

  You don't know.

• 1:40:35Speaker 01

  The zip up. But, yeah, I, I think they're both cool for sure, but, um, pull over one.

• 1:40:41Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:40:41Speaker 01

  Kind of by a landslide, too.

• 1:40:42Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:40:43Speaker 01

  It's crazy.

• 1:40:43Jocko Willink?

  No doubt.

• 1:40:44Speaker 01

  Um, nonetheless, oh, yeah, pull over. There you go. On the way, two weeks. Uh, this should be solid. Um, and then, you know, other stuff, some girls' tanks, t-shirts coming out, um.

• 1:40:55Jocko Willink?

  Girls' t-shirts?

• 1:40:56Speaker 01

  Girls' t-shirts.

• 1:40:57Jocko Willink?

  You're getting abused by the girls.

• 1:40:59Speaker 01

  Ah, we'll just say persuaded.

• 1:41:03Jocko Willink?

  I see them roughing you up.

• 1:41:04Speaker 01

  Persuaded. They chose not to flank, but persuaded nonetheless.

• 1:41:08Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 1:41:09Speaker 01

  You know, they're, they're all about the direct action for sure. Um, so some women's stuff on there and more, and then some patches. Again, with the, the size of the Velcro patches, the two by three is on the way. Right now, they're four by four across three inches down. That's big for the standard Velcro interchangeable, right?

• 1:41:28Jocko Willink?

  Right.

• 1:41:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, so just know that.

• 1:41:30Jocko Willink?

  Two by threes are on the way.

• 1:41:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:41:32Jocko Willink?

  Good.

• 1:41:32Speaker 01

  I mean, it's, you know, four by three is fine, I guess, but not for if you're interchangeable and you got the two by three thing.

• 1:41:38Jocko Willink?

  For all the military guys and law enforcement.

• 1:41:42Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:41:42Jocko Willink?

  They need, they need three by two. And this is, I should have told you that and made it a little more clear.

• 1:41:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:41:47Jocko Willink?

  But anyways.

• 1:41:49Speaker 01

  Nonetheless.

• 1:41:49Jocko Willink?

  We live and we learn.

• 1:41:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, so the main thing, go there, Jocko store dot com is, uh, just the store with everything. Again, if you don't like it, don't get it, but look, you might like that one. And bumper stickers. Anyway.

• 1:42:02Jocko Willink?

  And also, on Amazon, you can go and get yourself some Jocko Whitey. And it's sell, it's sold a lot better. It sold, it's, it's selling amazing. And we got a massive order on the way. And we've also got some restock coming, so. It came originally in these really nice tins that cost a lot of money to make and so that's cool. You want to have one of those tins, but if you're doing your reload, you're going to be able to buy in the next few weeks, you're going to be able to buy a reload, a box with a hundred in it. A hundred.

• 1:42:40Speaker 01

  So you don't need like another tin.

• 1:42:42Jocko Willink?

  Another tin, you can use the same tin, refill it. So that's coming. And you know what? If you're uncertain of whether or not you need the white tee, it's real easy. You go to Amazon. You go to Amazon, you read the reviews and you will be convinced because they are perfect. The Jocko white tee is performing miracles.

• 1:43:02Speaker 01

  Evidently, yes.

• 1:43:04Jocko Willink?

  Across the board. So those are awesome. Go read those. They're funny as hell. So. And let's see also, if you haven't gotten Extreme Ownership book by myself and my brother Leif Babin, just go ahead and, and grab that book and own that book. Take Extreme Ownership of the book, Extreme Ownership, and you'll be good to go. And, and also if you have it,

• 1:43:27Jocko Willink?

  but there's other people that need it. Sometimes you need to take ownership of that situation as well, and you just need to buy them a copy. And also, Extreme Ownership, the muster in San Diego, California, October 20th and 21st. It's a leadership conference. We're going to be talking about combat leadership and the application of those principles from combat and how you use them on the battlefield, how you use them in business and how you use them in life. So, register, come on out, we'll see you then. It's getting close. Obviously Leif's going to be there. Andrew Paul, who's on the podcast is going to be there. Echo Charles will be in the house.

• 1:44:12Jocko Willink?

  So come on out and let's, let's crush that.

• 1:44:16Jocko Willink?

  As always, if you do want to keep it real, real, real with Echo and with myself, we kind of roll deep on the interwebs and we're there on Twitter, for me primarily Twitter, also Instagram, also Facebook is there and we're both on, Echo is at Echo Charles and I am at Jocko Willink and last but not least, thank you out there, you listening, engaging

• 1:45:00Jocko Willink?

  troops overseas and that are deploying overseas to hunt down evil, thank you. Police and law enforcement with an incredibly hard job, risking your lives to keep us safe, thank you. Firefighters, of course, that literally run toward fire, thank you and to the working

• 1:45:32Jocko Willink?

  men and women, building, creating, fixing, buying, selling, designing, making this world. Thanks to each of you for what you are doing, for doing your bit the best you can. And finally, thank you all for getting after it. And so, until next time, this is Echo and Jocko, out.