#372: Mark Nadal on Decentralized Network Infrastructures

Mark Nadal is the founder and CEO of ERA, an innovation lab focused on bringing the decentralized web to life across infrastructure, applications and security with an open-source mindset. In this conversation, we discuss the issues with a centralized internet, the prospects of the decentralized web, handshake theory, resilience vs efficiency, edge computing, and building a database for freedom fighters. =============================== Athletic Brewing is re-imagining beer for the modern adult. We love beer. But we also love being healthy, active and at our best. No matter your motivation, if you want to keep a clear head and drink healthier, we are here for you. Athletic makes non-alcoholic beer that you don't have to compromise to enjoy. The beers are fully flavored, clean ingredient, and a fraction of the calories of full strength beer - they fit in any occasion. Check out www.athleticbrewing.com for more details and free shipping nationwide. =============================== BlockFi allows you to keep your crypto, put it up as collateral, and receive a USD loan funded directly to your bank account. They do loans ranging from $2,000 to $10,000,000, and they're perfect for helping you reach your financial goals of all sizes. Visit BlockFi.com/Pomp to learn more about putting your crypto to work without having to sell it. https://www.blockfi.com/pomp =============================== Pomp writes a daily letter to over 50,000 investors about business, technology, and finance. He breaks down complex topics into easy to understand language, while sharing opinions on various aspects of each industry. You can subscribe at https://www.pompletter.com

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Anthony Pompliano?

  What's up everyone, this is Anthony Pompliano. Most of you know me as Pomp. You're listening to the Pomp Podcast, simply the best podcast out there. Let's kick this thing off. Mark Nadal is the founder and CEO of ERA, an innovation lab focused on bringing the decentralized web to life across infrastructure, applications, and security with an open source mindset. In this conversation, we discuss the issues with the centralized internet, the prospects of the decentralized web, handshake theory, resilience versus efficiency, edge computing, and building a database for freedom fighters. I really enjoyed this conversation with Mark, and I hope you do as well. Before we get into this episode though, I want to quickly talk about our sponsors.

• 0:45Anthony Pompliano?

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• 1:28Anthony Pompliano?

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• 1:50Anthony Pompliano?

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• 2:30Anthony Pompliano?

  You can subscribe at pompletter.com. Again, pompletter.com. All right, let's get into this episode with Mark. I hope you guys enjoy this one.

• 2:39Speaker 01

  Anthony Pompliano is a partner at Morgan Creek Digital. All opinions expressed by Pomp or his guests on this podcast are solely their opinions and do not reflect the opinions of Morgan Creek Digital or Morgan Creek Capital Management. You should not treat any opinion expressed by Pomp as a specific inducement to make a particular investment or follow a particular strategy, but only as an expression of his opinion. This podcast is for informational purposes only.

• 3:06Anthony Pompliano?

  All right, guys. Bang, bang. Got Mark here. Thanks so much for doing this, man. I'm super excited.

• 3:11Speaker 02

  Thanks for having me on the show. So I'm Mark Nadal and I'm the founder of Era, which has about 30 million monthly active users on our decentralized database and cybersecurity protocol called Gun. We got some pretty legendary investors behind us, Tim Draper and Mark Benioff as sales for us, as well as others, and a sweet OG team from the old school days of Marty Sirius Malmy, who was Satoshi's first contributor. And my job here today is to tell you about the evolution of the decentralized web and how over the next one or two years, 100 million people will be onboarding into decentralization and its impact to our lives, people and market.

• 3:52Anthony Pompliano?

  I love it, man. Before we get into the decentralized web and kind of all the nuances and intricacies there, let's talk about your background and kind of where did you grow up and then how did you eventually get into technology and what you're doing today?

• 4:07Speaker 02

  I've had the bountiful privilege of growing up in California, San Diego. So I've never known what bad weather is like. And that has given me a very different view, thanks to to just affluence of the area of post scarcity. So I do look at all of the existing models of money, finance, Bitcoin, blockchains, debt, government currencies with a lot of skepticism because I'm an internet baby, right? The internet is a fundamentally transformative technology that takes people out of the environment that they were in before. So if you were scared of the school ground bully, you don't have to deal with that anymore.

• 4:49Speaker 02

  Unfortunately, centralization has led back to the school ground bully, which is Facebook just wants to recommend your high school friends. But the power of the internet is to connect to people who need to be connected, ought to be connected, and should be connected, but are distant and apart. So the internet is this kind of vital transition and that's kind of the evolution I went through myself personally. I was focused on ideas and philosophy and mathematics, but without being able to apply it, I couldn't have any impact on the world. And so I jumped into learning how to code. And very quickly, we got some publicity in press and my centralized servers fell apart.

• 5:29Speaker 02

  They caught on fire like the classic Silicon Valley TV show. It was just like, things are not working. And the analogy here is that it doesn't matter, some nerd words, if your application server, if your CDN, if your front end code is all working, the database is the heart to your system. It pumps the blood to your whole system. So if the database is centralized and it goes down, It doesn't matter if your brain is working fine, doesn't matter if your arms are working fine. You don't have blood to power that system. And so I got interested in decentralized technology for the sake of resilience, efficiency and scalability. But it's also been a wonderful journey of discovering all these other perks and benefits

• 6:12Speaker 02

  and censorship resistance and components. So that's kind of in a nutshell. I could do hours of talking on just that, that transition and growth. But it's why I'm passionate about the internet. I think it can impact humanity and why it's extraordinarily important, not only for financial reasons, but also for humanitarian reasons that we make this transition into a more resilient future that is better for everybody and brings people together rather than connecting them with yet another advertisement, school ground bully or toxic news feed.

• 6:49Anthony Pompliano?

  Absolutely. And so maybe let's talk a little bit about what was the centralized service that you'd built and kind of took off and really drove you to the ultimate conclusion that decentralized database would be an important piece of infrastructure?

• 7:03Speaker 02

  Cool. That was about a decade ago. It was a collaborative web design tool called Excelsior. There is an old All Things Digital interview of me showing off the technology. So you can see my transition from then to now. And these days it's called low code, no code. It's a very popular movement and I'm kind of a little bit jealous because it's like, oh, like that, that is actually one of the, the passion points I'm interested in solving is creating tools for amateurs that outperform professionals. Because I want that type of empowerment for everybody. I don't want people to have to pay for things in order to be a professional that can create an impact.

• 7:48Speaker 02

  I want, I want tools that enable the everyone. But

• 7:55Speaker 02

  Unfortunately, this rabbit trail, right? Well, then you discover that it's 2010, 2011, and you would think we can auto-scale, right? No, no. Just having 300 sign-ups on our website crashed our MongoDB database instance. Web scales, developers call it. And, you know, I just spun up a huge machine for the in-between to make it last. But those sleepless nights of getting pager calls at 3:00 a.m. and debugging what's going wrong just, you know, led me to a point where it's like, I think using my math background and my understanding of physics and distributed systems,

• 8:40Speaker 02

  I can build something that's a little bit more resilient, a little bit more powerful. And hey, so far, we're doing it. I'm handling 30 million users a month rather than 300 sign-ups. So lots of details there, but it'll start to bore people on the technical side.

• 8:57Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, so let's talk a little bit about the centralized internet. And I couldn't agree more with you in terms of the positive impact and kind of net gain that the world has had because of the internet and kind of the everything from increasing the rate of communication, increasing the connectivity of kind of the human nodes in the globe to literally just making us more efficient and kind of better informed and all these things. But there are problems, right? And so maybe talk a little bit just about how you see the, I'll call it the legacy centralized internet and kind of what those problems are and why really the decentralized web can address them.

• 9:35Speaker 02

  Okay, I'm gonna back up for a second. My last kind of explanation was pointing more towards developers and engineers. This, I want to really point towards like markets and investors and transition that we're going through. So I always start, if you are doing day trading, you should be doing a lot of math. And one of the most exciting algorithms I've found is called the handshake problem. And the handshake problem, so let's step back and then I'll apply it to the internet in your question, is when you're at a business meeting, how many individual business cards get exchanged at that conference? Such that, you know, you're only exchanging one business card for each person that you're meeting. And

• 10:18Speaker 02

  Most business people will know there is a high advantage to kind of speed dating, right? You want to get as many cards as possible to see what the opportunity is. That way, then later you can follow up with a particular value add or proposition. But if you only chat with one or two people at the conference the entire night, you don't know what you missed out on. So that's represented mathematically in graph theory is what's called the handshake problem. And this winds up being like the fundamental equation that I'm arguing drives value add for the internet and people into the future. And here's why.

• 10:52Speaker 02

  You don't get startups. You don't get innovation unless you get recombination. Unless you get people who bump into each other and they discover they have similar competing ideas and they're able to engage with each other. So before the internet, you only could bump into people in physical meet space, right? And that's why a lot of people are attracted to cities. In fact, like you literally have geographic density in order to increase people as particles bumping into each other to get this type of spark. Hopefully that rather than here in California is elsewhere in the world like, you know, you don't want a spark that starts a forest fire.

• 11:34Speaker 02

  You want a city that people interact with each other and sparks and creates startup that then drives innovation because those ideas are transformative and it can be executed on. But now we can move this online, right? In fact, we can algorithmize all of it. And this is where I think the transition from prior services like Oracle, IBM, the old industry of what computers were supposed to be into things like Uber and Airbnb is happening. Because Airbnb.

• 12:11Speaker 02

  Is saying, you know, the value added is not in the taxis that we actually own. Okay, it's in our ability to do a matchmaking algorithm across the network. So there's kind of two trade offs. You have venture capitalists who have a large network that's very deep that they can reorient. Okay, and then you have very shallow networks that are huge like Bitcoin, AT&T, Facebook,

• 12:40Speaker 02

  Airbnb, Uber. And what's odd is that the centralized companies like Google and Facebook don't understand the value of the shallow but largeness of their network. Because they're just using that to control information flow from a censorship or moderation perspective. But the companies that are really like going through these very quick, rapid economic transformations that, you know, different markets Uber compared to Facebook, but that are almost a threat to the overall capital allocation is, is the companies are saying, hey, what if the value is our network itself? And how we recombine it to find and produce more value add for everybody in the community?

• 13:25Speaker 02

  And I predict actually, and I'll end this, we're gonna end my ramble, is that you're going to see money itself evolve into a network system. Bitcoin is extraordinarily important because it takes the existing debt model, the scarcity model, and removes middlemen like banks. But I'm here to say that that is a very important but tiny transition step towards this overall decentralized movement that's happening. And I'll leave it there for all the rest of my thoughts and.

• 14:02Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, so as you kind of think through that, right? There is an argument that the lack of ownership by a single individual organization is no longer a nice to have, but has become a necessity in this new world across different applications. And what I mean by that is I continue to think a lot about this theme of centralization is a business risk, right? And you can switch out the word business risk for other things like an individual risk or whatever, but centralization has no longer become this thing that you need centralization to get efficiency and therefore you can give up the resiliency, right?

• 14:47Anthony Pompliano?

  Decentralization can actually now ensure you have the resiliency and also we're now getting to the point where you can have efficiency as well. How do you think through that?

• 14:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, so first of all, right, there's kind of three levels to the market. There's the consumer market, there's the lobby market, and there's the nation-state market. So depending upon where you care to invest or put money or think about, they definitely have different scales. So I want to first state that we're still transitioning into the internet era and that means that like any money and investment still put into, you know, FAANG, there's still a lot of the world that we're transitioning just onto the cloud and centralized, centralized internet style efficiency. So I don't think you're really going to lose money long-term over even those investments, even though it's against kind of my philosophical view.

• 15:37Speaker 02

  And then there's the government scale stuff, which I, we can discuss that later. But in terms of like consumer market, yes, especially with COVID accelerating stuff, you already saw a lot of Fortune 500s moving on to what's called edge cloud. And that's like kind of this latest bleeding, bleeding edge, unintended bear, transition that only innovative.

• 16:05Speaker 02

  Organizations are thinking about, and it's important because you got consumers all around the world and you did get the coordination consistency of having Google saying, um, being able to centralize things. But now most of these companies are realizing, hey, like, the only way for us to compete in the market now is to just like have slightly faster websites than our competitor because that's going to

• 16:26Anthony Pompliano?

  So e- explain this because I think there's a lot of people who are listening who, when you say edge or you talk about pops or any of this stuff, they're going to have no clue what that is. So just like what in plain English, like what is edge computing or edge cloud computing?

• 16:41Speaker 02

  Yeah. So imagine you have a billion users spread across several different continents. Before it was easier to just manage all of that by having them point to one server in Amazon East, you know, Virginia or San Francisco or London. Let's just say you had one server and all eight billion users eventually um trickled back to that server that then processed the information, saved the data and pushed it back out. So this can be seen incredibly with big frustration when you're traveling at an airport. You go up to um, you know, TSA and you know, to print your pa- your, your ticket and it's like, oh, you know, enter

• 17:23Speaker 02

  your, your um flight number. And it's like, oh, let's wait 30 seconds. We like, oh, shoot, good thing I have, you know, global pass or whatever. Cause it's like, my, my plane's going to take off in one hour, but the stupid machine is taking 30 seconds to look up this information. And that's because even though the airline should know that you are going to be at that airport, they're still having that machine talk to some server on the opposite side of the world. And that's ridiculous. That's dumb. And then they're doing what's called global consistency on that data. Um, and, and there's, there's all sorts of like terrorist and security reasons why you might do that. But that doesn't mean you can't say, hey, um, we know somebody who's going to be faking your passport is not going to

• 18:07Speaker 02

  be coming from Australia if you are flying out of, of JFK, right? So

• 18:14Speaker 02

  Edge systems is about saying, hey, well, we know that we can actually push that processing, that logic down to that terminal in JFK itself. Or let's say a data center that's running in the back pipes somewhere on JFK or nearby. Right. So then when you show up at the airport, rather than the stupid terminal talking to London or Australia, some computer far, far away, you actually get instantaneous results because the data is there. It's literally physically present with you. So when you type in your number, the response can be instantaneous. And, and that's now how these Fortune 500s are realizing that they have to compete.

• 18:55Speaker 02

  They have to make the experience be just slightly faster than everybody else in the market that they're competing with. And they have slightly fast experiences that whether the user is cognitively aware of it or not, psychologically adds up over time to creating the retention that sticks them on that app rather than others.

• 19:16Anthony Pompliano?

  Would it be fair to classify or kind of describe? Edge computing has obviously got some aspects or elements of decentralization to it, right? You're literally pushing it away closer to the end user for performance reasons. But is it a kind of a balance between there's still centralized ownership of the system? There's still centralized design, but the implementation is not decentralized, but it's less centralized than it previously was? Is that like a fair way to talk about what's going on there?

• 19:49Speaker 02

  Absolutely. However, in the blockchain world, it's easy to start getting some things conflated. Right. So while blockchain is decentralized in ownership, it is not decentralized in operation. Effectively, every single block, there's the

• 20:05Speaker 02

  You know, the winner that controls that block. And so that means you still have to be connected to the internet, to the network, to the blockchain in order for things to resolve. So blockchain doesn't necessarily resolve that airport example that I was giving. However, it does resolve the ownership or the equity or the financial side of the equation, which is incredibly, incredibly important. So there's decentralization with respect to operation, you know, performance, which, yes, is what more edge computing is about and is more the side that I'm dealing with. And then there's decentralization around ownership or equity or property. And there's a whole interesting like transition there, which I'm, because a lot of your users

• 20:49Speaker 02

  are from that space, I want to quickly note that before it was intellectual property. You owned the code and that was the value add. Then it switched to like, oh, wait, like IBM, Oracle, like these, these SaaS services, these internet as a service, these are, are, are just taking our code and, and racking in millions of users and making money. And so then it transitioned to, oh, like we own the gateway, right? Um, and one of the brilliant thing about Satoshi is he came along and said, actually, if you own the seed to the network, you get the benefits of both without the operational complexity of either. Right? And that's like fundamentally profound from an ownership perspective. It's separate from the monetary or financial side.

• 21:33Speaker 02

  It's saying actually what exists that is valuable is not the intellectual property of the code itself that you're trying to sell. It's not the gateway or the server that you're trying to sell. It is actually saying, um, what is the authority of the network itself? Because that is the network effect that everything builds on top of. And if you own a seed, the authenticity, the origin to that network. Then it doesn't matter if people fork your code or spin up a competing Bitcoin. Like, nobody's going to use it. It can be completely open source. You can literally shovel the source code and to your competitors and it doesn't matter.

• 22:18Speaker 02

  Because, you know, it's the network that is valuable. It is the network that's valuable.

• 22:24Anthony Pompliano?

  So talk to me about kind of this idea of resiliency versus efficiency, right? Chamath Palpatia came on at the kind of the beginning of this pandemic. And one of the main messages he had was the US economy has chased efficiency over resiliency. And therefore, we basically scoured the globe, found all these places where we could go put our manufacturing facilities, our supply chains, kind of all these different things that led to greater efficiencies, which ultimately led to more profitability, or at least the allure of more profits. But what it did was it exposed a US-based company to less resiliency. Because obviously, when a global pandemic happens, the second that other countries are affected,

• 23:08Anthony Pompliano?

  you now don't have control over your operations. There's all these kind of issues. And so one of his main messages was, hey, we are going to go back to a more balanced view of we need efficiency, but we also need resiliency, right? It can't just be all efficiency, no resiliency, or all resiliency, no efficiency. There's got to be some balance there. And so how do you think about that when applied to the decentralized web? And looking at your reaction right now, you may not even agree with that framework that he used.

• 23:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, I'm not saying he's wrong, but I think there's a conflation between the consumer market and the government market there, right? So a lot of take Apple's recent move, which will date this episode,

• 23:49Speaker 02

  to using India as a manufacturing plant instead of China. I don't think that's necessarily.

• 23:57Speaker 02

  I think it's because of regulatory efficiency, not even necessarily product efficiency. It would be a lot more efficient, right? To have the market that you're selling to, um, let's say primarily the US historically, um, and London, Europe. Selling the market, but the product's already there, because then it's just more cost efficient in terms of, uh, you don't have to ship the items or the damage that happens in that logistics process. But that was the kind of the win for, for Apple is they realized, oh, India's a growing market. They're selling, um, higher flagship phones too, but also has

• 24:37Speaker 02

  probably unethically, right? A comparable level of, of sweatshop, um, um, operational stuff, but they're going to have to figure out quality control there as well. But Tim Cook is the king of that. He made that transition for Apple in the first place. So I don't, I don't necessarily know we could peg global operations purely as efficiency versus resilience. I would say that, that playing the regulatory game, that lobbying market and the kind of government level is more about resilience than it is about efficiency. Um, but that kind of just depends upon what your scope you're dealing with. So I maybe, maybe I should just skip past it and tell me the question again.

• 25:17Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah. So talk a little bit just about the trade off between resiliency and efficiency, especially when it comes to the decentralized web. And, and the perspective here is, uh, there's a lot of people who say, hey, it sounds great to have a decentralized internet, but isn't that going to be slower or less performance than, uh, the centralized version? I think you actually think the opposite, but, but kind of help people understand that trade off between decentralization, uh, resiliency versus efficiency.

• 25:41Speaker 02

  I am so in the weeds on this, right? So I apologize, but it's like, if the goal in going for is power, um, and control, then sure, centralization is more efficient. But, but like, like if you want authoritarianism, if you want totalitarianism, uh, if you want, uh, um, if you want a master planned economy, like, I, okay, I can't argue against that. Um, but on in all other categories, like down to the physics of biology ecosystems, the universe, mass distribution, markets, free markets, um, business operations and, and.

• 26:22Speaker 02

  That that the efficiency and resilience is just the way that the universe has played out and how humans like even your brain distributes your memories across your the neurons and so it's like I mean they don't even know whether it's in the neurons or not but so I don't know even where to start because the statement that efficiency and resilience is a trade off between centralization and decentralization is is

• 26:52Anthony Pompliano?

  Would you would you agree would you agree that a centralized social network or centralized company is more efficient and less resilient?

• 27:08Speaker 02

  What is the end goal like it only has to do with what the goal we're trying to attain is so if it's profit no like no San Francisco hiring engineers in San Francisco is expensive and the covid transition is certainly like showcasing that there's plenty of extraordinarily talent that's been around for a long time that is at you know third or a fraction you know a fraction of that price now obviously there's ethics around how you wind up you know paying employees and stuff but but the the only I think efficiency about centralization

• 27:48Speaker 02

  is around like mind share tribalism and and like cult signaling and those cults could be very very very big which means they're definitionally not a cult but I sorry I'm probably throwing you

• 28:07Anthony Pompliano?

  I love it.

• 28:10Speaker 02

  So yeah, the question I don't even know how to start because I so fundamentally disagree with the basis of the question that

• 28:19Anthony Pompliano?

  So tell me about in terms of the decentralized web, right? Why is this important?

• 28:26Speaker 02

  Okay, um, first of all, I want to start with the humanitarian reasons, right? Which is

• 28:35Speaker 02

  Hopefully, we view humans, whether it's for moral reasons or economic reasons, as potential contributors to an economy or potential contributors to this planet. Unfortunately, industrialization has kind of changed the view of humans from something to extract from and are extractors, rather than value-add or creators. And that kind of creates a lot of political, ideological, and religious division between people, which we can go into if you want, but that's very philosophical. I think what's going to be more applied is talking about the market transition.

• 29:13Speaker 02

  And the internet originally was founded on this idea of academics being able to collaborate from afar, which, think about that, that's almost a dangerous idea. Because a university's entire IP, its entire ability to control and productize and profit is by taking minds, bringing them inside a literally walled garden campus, and selling external access to that. And the internet was then those scientists being like, hey, but like, I really know somebody over at MIT or Caltech that I want to talk to and do research collaboration on.

• 29:58Speaker 02

  And so they got that going, thanks to Berners-Lee. But suddenly that exploded, right? Suddenly that exploded to businesses realizing that they could collaborate online. And then humans realizing, well, a corporation is just a body of humans, literally, from the Latin. So then people, from a social standpoint, realized that they might get along with friends on the other side of the planet, rather than in their neighborhood. And that goes back to my bully comments from earlier. And again, that transition is right out of the Cold War, too. So there's even that legacy of the nationalism of, you know, you're American, you're not American. And it's easy to...

• 30:42Speaker 02

  Issue propaganda when the nation states control the telecommunications. They control the radio towers. So then you don't have friends. Or you don't hear stories. To empathize with people outside of a nation state. So they are the other. There's this really great talk called the empathic civilization. About this evolution over history. There's like RSA animate, like one of those TED. Really cool. I recommend people watch it. So, but again, that's like more the philosophy stuff and the transition between ideologies and nationalism and religion and philosophy over time.

• 31:17Speaker 02

  But now. Right, like we just take this for granted, which is. We have friends from around the world because we might get. A better relationship with them because we vibe with them better. So then how does this impact, right, the transition in the market itself? Like, I'm trying to make this historic, and a lot of my, my comments around money and finance and markets, I'm trying to. To, to say, hey, you can do your day trading where you're, you know, you're doing math. And checking up variables and down variables and the calculus for what you're going to do for this next week or the next month. But you're always going to get a return if you understand the historical trends and the larger and larger trends and how.

• 32:00Speaker 02

  There's these onboarding that happen of larger and larger populations anyways. So. I, I'm always trying to appeal to this historical narrative and understanding the transition. So the importance of the decentralized web. Is the exact same thing that's playing out. In the case of like the governments and the corporations and individuals. Okay. Where value is going to accrue and build and develop. That will return investments is increasingly in individuals. Like you, Joe Rogan, like Joe Rogan is doing more traffic and podcast downloads than CNN.

• 32:45Speaker 02

  Right, like, sorry, maybe it's like half the size. I forget, I forget the number. That's incredible that a. Individual, right, because the internet can amass a network effect. That rivals mainstream system. So.

• 33:02Speaker 02

  The importance is primarily the humanitarian transition of us being able to empathize with more and more people over time, rather than bipartisan by-product competition that capitalism and socialism kind of drives this this forcing function, this winner takes all, which then ultimately boils down to two competing factions. That then drives, I'm rambling here, I'm just gonna go with it because this is one of my more important, longer-term things I'm trying to talk to people about is that like, look, fundamentally capitalism and socialism are zero-sum games, which means in order for that zero-sum game to play out, over time, there's what's called Pareto efficiency and 80-20 rule

• 33:47Speaker 02

  in terms of how wealth income divide is going to happen and resource allocations are going to develop. And once you have that, there's always going to be a monopoly, but at least in capitalism, there is competition of that monopoly and it boils down to two companies. And then also same thing happens in politics, boils down to two sides, because that's the fastest way in a zero-sum system where you have this kind of balanced lever going back and forth, they can duke it out with each other. It's the most efficient way. But unfortunately, both sides are fundamentally playing the same game, okay?

• 34:27Speaker 02

  They are on the same side. If you can tribalize people's emotions to vote based off of fear, then that's how you get better voting power. If you can tribalize people's dollars to get them to pay for a product, you know, Starbucks versus Seattle's Best, but they're both owned by the same parent company, like.

• 34:53Speaker 02

  You you want people to think that there's competition so that way from a market standpoint, the people who do want to go against the system, flip over to whatever the opposite is. But what a lot of people don't realize is that the opposite side as a company is usually owned by the same parent company as the monopoly. And then the same thing with with the government and politics stuff like it it's all voting extraction in the same way that money is money extraction. What's the answer? What's the solution? Yeah, the answer is these network effects, which is you don't want to reward people based off of um scarcity, because most people don't even value scarcity anymore.

• 35:35Speaker 02

  That's a dangerous statement to say on a podcast with investors. We spend so much time scrolling through these toxic news feeds that clearly we're getting some sort of value out of these toxic news feeds. Um, and I I have a whole blog on this free dot eco, which explains um this transition into what I call a post scarcity or um non zero sum economic model. And it honestly, this happened with the internet, but nobody knows how to measure it. And the way you actually measure the EBITDA or the value of a company, I argue is looking at the handshake problem and calculating the handshake of that network effect.

• 36:21Speaker 02

  Um, that is the maximum potential value that can be unlocked from a network if it is utilized. However, most of these companies are still busy trying to productize and scarcityize their um their their features that they are not looking at the network for the sake of recombination on an opportunity, they're looking at the network for extraction. And that creates these dystopian centralizations, these dystopian thing privacy violations. Now I'm really off topic that so like the importance of the D web is is across financial, humanitarian, efficiency, resilient, it's it's everything like.

• 37:03Speaker 02

  As a young kid growing up in the nineties, I was sad that I wasn't born a little bit earlier to partake in the the internet revolution and be one of those pioneers. But now I'm realizing that the most exciting transition that humanity is going forward was that the internet was just a base nervous system for us to start with. And now we have the opportunity for the first time in like two thousand, three thousand, four thousand years

• 37:32Speaker 02

  to change the economic model. Well, okay, sorry, capitalism and socialism has only been around for one hundred and seventy five and three hundred years itself. Uh, that's gonna start another ramble about just how quickly people transition. But I gotta, I gotta stop because I think I wanna come back to more applied uh things for the audience to, rather than ending with like this philosophy. Uh, Stu, I wanna come back to like practical implications. So I'm gonna, I'll, I'll stop there.

• 37:59Anthony Pompliano?

  So, so help me understand what exactly you guys are building and um also let's talk a little bit about why uh this is like a um integral part of the decentralized kind of tech stack. Cause I think one of the uh the unfortunate things is there's a lot of people running around saying that they're building decentralized products or networks. And then you're like, wait a second, you just run it on like Amazon AWS, like how are you decentralized, right? Or uh my, my favorite uh way to uh to pinpoint decentralization is if I ask somebody, uh if the government came and told you to shut it down, could you?

• 38:34Speaker 02

  Nope.

• 38:35Anthony Pompliano?

  Right? Well, no, but, but I'm saying when, when somebody is not fully decentralized, it's like, look, if they, if they threaten to put you in jail, could you shut it down? And they say, yes, it's like, okay, then you're obviously not decentralized, right? Um, and, and so help us understand kind of what you guys are building and why that's important.

• 38:49Speaker 02

  So that is a good metric. Um, I do wanna note that that is because of the transition from IP to services to um like uh the blockchain um initial. So theoretically, a government could shut down, you know, Bitcoin by scanning the old IRS channel for all of the um IP addresses and URLs of peers saying like, hey, we're part of Bitcoin network. There, those lists you can get pretty easily and blacklist, which is not good for the network. Um, and then you could theoretically also shut, you know, Bitcoin down and. Dangerous Ethereum comments here by contributing code to to Bitcoin Core,

• 39:32Speaker 02

  right, and creating some sort of breaking backdoor change that then eventually gets propagated out to all the machines. So there's still points of centralization even in a lot of these tools. But I do think that the most pragmatic way to look at it is from a network standpoint, which is, yeah, like, are there enough machines pointed to a single Amazon server that you shut that down and shutdowns the network? So what we're building, I let me explain two layers here. There is blockchain, right? Actually, I I care about providing like comprehensive

• 40:15Speaker 02

  understanding. So the the decentralized world is actually broken to through this microcosm is broken into three camps, blockchain, crypto, and D web. Now, most people apply crypto to cryptocurrency, but no, crypto is really cryptography, the old cypherpunk movement, that's privacy. So the value, the values of crypto is is privacy, and that's the kind of the Signal Telegram world. And as to whether they're actually private or not, you know, that's a debate on its own, but people know about Telegram and Signal. Then there is blockchain, and its values are an Ayn Rand sense of greed. So I'm not saying that negatively. I'm saying

• 40:58Speaker 02

  that like, that the selfish individual can then contribute back to society and build up profit, which then is reinvested into the larger network. But but like, the values of blockchain really is greed oriented in an Ayn Rand sense, that they should have used a better word than being selfish. And then D web is honestly about freedom or inclusivity. It can kind of go both ways. Let's say that those are fundamentally the same value at the end of the day. It's it's hard to have freedom if you're exclusive, then you're creating yet another wild garden. So my technology in my company has kind of quickly evolved from.

• 41:46Speaker 02

  People talking about it in this intellectual decentralized kind of Bitcoin narrative that all the rest of the market is caught up in to actually, okay, but the applied use of this technology is actually extremely beneficial for companies, existing enterprises, as well as individuals, nonprofits, and governments. So from like a business perspective, I'm saying this cloud-edged market is a larger bubble, it's a larger market share to attack than necessarily this ideologically purist view.

• 42:29Speaker 02

  I am an ideological purist, but I have to be a ruthless pragmatist. And unfortunately, my goal is adoption, right? Not necessarily who's got a larger market cap on their crypto coin. So for me, we've already onboarded 30 million monthly active users, and over the next one or two years, with existing companies and enterprises I'm working with, it'll be growing to above 100 million monthly active users. And so I'm just desperately trying to keep up with these nonprofits and enterprises that want to get that type of radical efficiency gains.

• 43:10Speaker 02

  And underneath, I then feel ethically okay that while maybe I'm transitioning an existing centralized service into being increasingly more decentralized and resilient, that also onboards all of the users of that service slowly into decentralization without them even knowing it. And that's because the value add of privacy alone, while extraordinarily important, only resonates with a much, much smaller market size than the value add of convenience. And because I care philosophically about this transition of humanity towards a better,

• 43:54Speaker 02

  more empathic humanitarian, less controlled, less dystopian dictator-type internet, I have to then be practical in saying, hey, you know, we're actually going to... Give you seventy percent cost savings under existing infrastructure by switching over to this technology. But that means the bar is much, much higher because now my technology is and has to be continuously battle tested at a scale that's significantly, significantly larger than what most blockchains are testing against. That doesn't mean I'm anti-blockchain. It just means I have a very industrialist

• 44:38Speaker 02

  view of how to go about humanitarian transitions and I will make those in-between steps if necessary, rather than being entirely purist.

• 44:53Anthony Pompliano?

  Who or what are the types of organizations and people that kind of are first adopting this? Right? Like what is there certain verticals? Is there certain types of businesses or individuals that you're just like, this is where we're finding the receptivity?

• 45:08Speaker 02

  It's an interesting one. So it's it's definitely a power rule. You get thousands of people that come into something and then honestly, you know, it's the one, the ten, the hundred that have the impact. So Internet Archive is this incredible nonprofit. Please go donate to them. They they did the pandemic response where they opened up their library for like medical textbooks and other things to to effectively everybody. And then the publishers sued them, but they're like, there's this nonprofit that's just like literally has the internet backed up. So they are decentralizing their backup of the internet, a historical record of our cultural evolution and our times. It's important transition that's happening in humanity. They have it all backed up in like two data centers, both in Northern California

• 45:53Speaker 02

  up near the Presidio and then one over in Richmond area. So I, as well as some of the other D web protocols are helping transition ideally the backup of that data off onto just random laptops running around the world, even phones in our case. Now, there's certainly a different reliability guarantee, but it's increasing the resilience. And so I'd say that reliability.

• 46:28Speaker 02

  can possibly go down in decentralized systems if your network is not large enough. However, efficiency and resilience goes up in a decentralized network. So in an archive, go donate to them. They're incredible. They're a great example. And initially, they were using us for metadata. What is the, the small piece of the data to coordinate all the information in the system? However, I started working with some people on the team about a half year ago on taking their video archive of public domain movies and, and decentralizing that as well. My technology was not, I did not originally intend to build it for video services.

• 47:12Speaker 02

  Gun as a database was intended for small data points like GPS coordinates that are updating hundreds of times a second in a decentralized network. Or tweets, small pieces of data, metadata-like information, and syncing that in a network. However, Mozilla just came along and sponsored our Zoom alternative. I can send you the link to that. It's called Meet Thing. And we are literally, I would have offered to do it unless, you know, you already have Zooms your kind of process for recording video. That we're literally live streaming video through our network, through our decentralized technology. So Mozilla's helped us with, with sponsoring that.

• 47:55Speaker 02

  So Mozilla is another organization in there. And then there's a couple other teams that are doing kind of video-like stuff. So lately, a lot of the use case has been around video. I think that's important. It's not what I'm like in goal passionate about, but it's helpful. The next company that's using, or I should say startup, is a YouTube alternative. And they are where probably a big chunk of that 30 million monthly active users are coming from. I don't really want to say their name because being a YouTube alternative that is censorship resistant leads to some pretty bad marketing stuff. So I'm going to skip on to the next one, which is Hacker Noon.

• 48:38Speaker 02

  We were experimenting with Hacker Noon, which is the, the tech journal. They have about four million monthly active users. They kind of pitched it as storing annotations and comments on our blockchain of technology, which is, is accurate, but not.

• 48:56Speaker 02

  Not entirely accurate. So we were testing with them like, okay, how do we manage four million monthly active users and distributing their load? And their costs, which I think that they're open about, but I can disclose, like, they have credits with Google for about $4,000 a month that they're getting charged for four million monthly active users. And we were benchmarking comparable performance where we're running on effectively $4 of quote, infrastructure costs because we're able to actually spread the load across that many users on their network. But again, I want to be clear, if you only have four users

• 49:39Speaker 02

  in your network, it's going to be very hard to get the sort of efficiency and scaling gains. And most unfortunately blockchain products only have like a four or a couple hundred users a month on it, which means they have to run these server side backups. But when your network is very large, the value is in your network. And you can then spread the load across the network, but you have to have a priori a large, a large network. And there's plenty of other examples I could talk about, but those kind of the four biggest ones. Again, like usually it's a handful of users that represent the majority of the traffic, even with like 12,000 developers that have started our project.

• 50:20Speaker 02

  There's, there's lots of interesting one-off developer projects, but they are definitely not the scale as these subset of companies.

• 50:33Anthony Pompliano?

  Can the entire internet be decentralized? Like, is that the, the ultimate end game here is everything is decentralized?

• 50:40Speaker 02

  It comes back to technical explanation of what decentralization means. And there's fundamentally two modes, right? One mode is what's called broadcast or mesh based communications. And broadcast or mesh based communications do not scale well. They're great for things like Burning Man protests, your local area wifi, and actually even probably larger stuff because. IoT is going to be very important with mesh. You have self-driving cars that should literally be bypassing cell towers and emitting their signals or GPS coordinates for doing things called dead reckoning for pre-calculating where cars should drive and to not collide with

• 51:21Speaker 02

  each other as self-driving cars start to talk to each other. Like, that is all mesh-based, and that is geographically and biomass concentrated. So mesh systems are good for physically, physically dense areas. However, across the pond communications from San Francisco to New York, like with us, or to London, you, you, you decentralization does not scale in terms of mesh communication, but you can still achieve decentralization at a global scale.

• 51:59Speaker 02

  And that's part of the reason why our technology is able to scale so well, is, is you intelligently kind of detect whether the packets or messages in the network are intended for an external network, in which case you don't rebroadcast it to everybody in your local area. You, you discover, you do a pathfinding algorithm to discover what is the fastest and most efficient way of communicating that information. And that keeps it scalable because you effectively have federated or centralized like routing, but it's distinct from the algorithms themselves being centralized with respect to ownership, right? Because if that's all running through

• 52:44Speaker 02

  Google's network, or Verizon's network, that's, that's bad, or Comcast's network. But if you're, if you're able to figure out this routing, um, a good analogy here is you have the United States of America, you want to drive from San Diego to New York. There's many different states you could drive through. There's many different combinations, and there's a more efficient route that you can drive through. But what if there's a big massive toll, right? Like, like smack dab on the most efficient route, there's this wall there.

• 53:17Speaker 02

  You you might want to take a longer route and drive around um and see different countryside. So you can think of routing, communication, internet as being the same thing. And the the goal is now like free market competition of available routing, right? And as long as you keep that highly available, then it's decentralized, even if you're getting, even if most of your packets are being sent um through uh Google's fiber optic cables or AT&T's cable. Because if that cable goes down, whether physically or um financially, right, regulation or something, you're able to route around it.

• 53:57Speaker 02

  Maybe it's not as efficient, but um decentralization is all about getting all these people in a network to agree to the same protocol to have a more resilient system, but achieve the same efficiency as a centralized system where it is optimally possible.

• 54:15Anthony Pompliano?

  Got it, and and so help people understand like what is the um the best way for them to think about uh you you use this terminology like database for freedom fighters, right? And and kind of like, before we kind of get into the rapid fire to finish up, explain that a little bit, like what does that mean?

• 54:34Speaker 02

  Danger, danger, danger, and turning you into a much, much longer territory. So um our psychologists on our team, our behavioral analysis and our marketing analysis has kind of looked at different cultures across the world and been able to consolidate um down to three fundamental values. There's a lot more than that, and there's all sorts of interesting talks from Jonathan Haidt to others I can send you to. But the three cultural values are are freedom, fairness, and fusion. Um I never really thought about fusion before because I'm Western, and fusion winds up being strongly Asian, and I I honestly don't know enough about it yet. But I know that that's something that has to be on the table. And if I ignore it, I'm not being appropriately objective.

• 55:17Speaker 02

  Freedom is just like classic, right, American. Um fairness is where you get a lot of um European values as well as progressive left values, which is like we're focused. Well, I shouldn't say we, but those people, um, whether that includes you or me or, um, is focused on, on care over justice. And this plays out in all sorts of interesting ways, especially with the, the justice versus the riots going on now. Um, and capitalists, people who focus on freedom usually interpret fairness from a equity perspective rather than a, um,

• 56:01Speaker 02

  this is a danger, um.

• 56:05Speaker 02

  So if somebody works hard and builds a company, they believe that the merit and the reward should go to that person, not distributed across the ball, that what is fair, what is just, what is equitable is the person who did the work gets the results. And the same thing with respect to crime, right? If somebody commits a crime, then that person should be individually punished for it, not society as a whole. Okay. And unfortunately, most humans kind of want the rewards to be distributed across everybody and the punishment to be, um, isolated to the individual. Um, that, that would be like

• 56:47Speaker 02

  probably the optimal balance of everybody's philosophical and ideological views. While fairness, if you don't take it from a justice oriented view is, oh, it's not fair if there's this scarce pie and only one percent or 20% of people have it and 80% have this wealth divide. But where this gets like particularly intersectionally, um, toxic or fascinating is then around like justice, police brutality is, is terrible. We need to immediately stop it. But then how do you reconcile like, oh? Is is burning down um other people's houses or businesses

• 57:28Speaker 02

  or government buildings, public buildings justified in distributing justice across. And and we don't really, as humans, we don't really want to talk about distributing justice. We don't really want to talk. That makes us uncomfortable. Okay, so if you want to skip this from your podcast, feel free to edit it out. Um, but those are like the values that we have to struggle with. And now I forget your your question. That's not even talking about fusion. That's not even talking about the conflict of governments of, you know, of the the United States perspective relative to eight to China and Russia, which are the other kind of driving cultural influences. But. Um, yeah, okay, sorry. What was the question?

• 58:09Anthony Pompliano?

  Um, the idea of the database for freedom fighters, like where exactly um that is uh kind of prevalent and and and kind of what that means?

• 58:23Speaker 02

  I would I would argue it is hard to have justice and fairness if there's always a middleman controlling what that justice is. And so that means, because of my American view, my my more capitalist leaning perspective, while I I understand that there are are particular flaws and loopholes, that I do see freedom as being foundational in order to reduce.

• 58:54Speaker 02

  It it goes back to this resilience idea. In in order to maintain fairness and fusion for larger scales of people without it becoming corrupt, you need freedom as a foundational component. And

• 59:12Speaker 02

  ignoring any political process of that, just technologically, that's a nuanced detail that like impacts.

• 59:22Speaker 02

  Like in all humans. So yes, if we all were using Apple computers or IBM servers or Amazon servers, it doesn't matter our political affiliations or our political view. If all internet has to be trafficked through a particular machine, then we are fundamentally at risk to the interests of that individual, whether we agree with it or not, from cutting off everybody else. Um, we just hope, right, that the people that were trafficking our internet through um, and our technology through, we agree with. And there's the same thing that's playing out with like USPS and the postal office system, right, which is like, well,

• 1:00:05Speaker 02

  I want options of being able, who can I mail through, right? Um, the more free market competition that exists. So, so the reason why I called it gun is because historically, and yes, still in the present day, um, wars were fought with bullets. And the danger there is around who can amass the most guns, the most bullets, and coerce a population. But what we have seen with the rise of Google and Facebook and the privacy violations and even Zoom doing all sorts of nefarious stuff is that this transition has moved to digital warfare, um, which is taking people's personalities and their minds, their psychology

• 1:00:50Speaker 02

  and their behaviors and their, their purchasing powers and their voting powers and using the database as a gun to coerce or manipulate, um, people. And programmers love power. Um, it's dangerous for, for us people. And so I want to constantly remind developers, whether they're at Google or corporate or at a government or, um, the individual developers in our community, that the database, how you manage people's information is a loaded weapon. You have to take as much caution with how you use that data

• 1:01:29Speaker 02

  as you would with real, physical, um, walls and boundaries and, and guns. And once we kind of get

• 1:01:41Speaker 02

  The Googles and the Facebooks of the world to realize that the real danger of the information that they have access to, then maybe we can upsell them on transitioning to something else, which I'm all for win-win systems. So I don't really want to burn down governments. I don't want to burn down corporations. I don't want to burn down the individual. I want to figure out how to align incentives between governments, corporations, and individuals, such that at the end of the day, yes, my communication with anybody in the world is

• 1:02:20Speaker 02

  end-to-end encrypted, which we have the technological tooling for. And there is some sort of middleman or government, sorry, middleman corporation that is trying to deliver my data at faster and faster rates, as well as in governments that see the value add in information propagation rather than information, disinformation. And I'll end it there. If you're interested in where I'm going with all that thinking, it fundamentally requires post-scarce economic models, beyond debt-based models. You still have to be compatible with existing system. So I would encourage anybody to check out my free dot eco. And then I have a talk called

• 1:03:06Speaker 02

  Opt Out of Money for Fun and Profit. And it discusses how you can actually combine both of these worlds to create and evolve people into more pro-social settings, more humanitarian settings, that are also equally as profitable, lucrative, and financially incentivized as as existing debt-based models.

• 1:03:34Anthony Pompliano?

  So we can send people first to free dot eco. They can go read a bunch of content, right, that you've created there. And if they want to check out the product, they can go to gun dot eco, right, is the best website. All right. So people go check out that. I think that obviously the the importance of decentralized infrastructure in the future world is could never be more obvious. And I'll kind of leave it at that. Before I go to wrap up, Mark, I always ask the same two questions, and then you'll get to ask me a question to to end it. The first one is, what is the most important book that you've ever read?

• 1:04:07Speaker 02

  I might be an outlier here. I've probably read less than fifty books in my entire life. Um, I, I, I'm actually pretty anti-book, so I don't have a good answer for you.

• 1:04:21Anthony Pompliano?

  What, what do you do instead of read books?

• 1:04:23Speaker 02

  Write books. So.

• 1:04:25Anthony Pompliano?

  What's the most important one you've written?

• 1:04:29Speaker 02

  Um, depends upon whether you want a fact or fiction.

• 1:04:32Anthony Pompliano?

  Fact.

• 1:04:34Speaker 02

  I would say the, the free dot eco, um, blogs, cause, cause that's the most important relevant, relevant to hu- to humanity at this time and its transition. Um, but I would encourage people to independently go and write about this stuff before being influenced by my writings. Uh, I don't, I want people to re-derive these things separately, not be manipulated by me. So, um, if you want to read it, go ahead. Uh, please do, but I would encourage people to write books rather than read books. Not that reading books is bad. It's great. It's just, uh, you learn more by teaching than you do by being a student. So.

• 1:05:14Anthony Pompliano?

  I love that answer. Uh, second question, a little bit more fun, is aliens believer or non-believer?

• 1:05:21Speaker 02

  Um, okay. Uh, I, I, I think that, I think that

• 1:05:29Speaker 02

  information is the most alien thing. And so with, with Elon Musk's Neuralink and, uh, Mary Lou Jepson's, um, uh, uh, non-invasive in, uh, infrared or whatever, um, read, write brain stuff. We're, we're going to be thrown into an informational universe. And if you watch Tron two, I do think that, that there is possibility for the emergence of alien entity or information, whether that just be AI, okay? Or whether that be like some.

• 1:06:08Speaker 02

  Alien that existed for millions and millions of years ago that like got sucked into a black hole or so like like. And so, no, I don't, I don't believe in aliens because I haven't seen scientific evidence of aliens' existence. But I do think that alien information or alien entities can arise or emerge. Um, in which case, it's just a question of locality. Do they exist in information space? Do they exist in physical space? Um, as to whether you bump into them. And there's a big probability that when we throw ourselves into information space universe that we're never going to bump into them. Because all of our information space systems are currently centralized to Earth, right?

• 1:06:50Speaker 02

  So, um, I, I would actually argue that like trees and um, the texture on the back of my wall are just as important. From an alien searching perspective, because from an information theory.

• 1:07:07Speaker 02

  In order to preserve larger and larger amounts of data. So take the Internet Archive, right? Taking a, a picture of, of cultural history on the Internet and making that available ideally to people hundreds, thousands of years from now. You want to compress that information. However, as you compress information, it becomes increasingly less readable and looks increasingly more um, natural. So it is possible the answer to life, the universe and everything has actually been like encoded into the, the wood grains. On, on this paneling here and I as a human would, would not even notice because it just looks like chaos or noise to me. Um, so hopefully that kind of plays around with ideas of aliens and information.

• 1:07:50Anthony Pompliano?

  I love it. You could ask me one question to finish up. What's the one question you got for me?

• 1:07:54Speaker 02

  Next 10 years, where do you think humanity is going to be at?

• 1:07:57Anthony Pompliano?

  Alive. We're not gonna die. What do you mean, where's it gonna be at? In what sense?

• 1:08:05Speaker 02

  Um, population levels as well as market levels, right? That's hidden two questions, but I, for me, right? Like, I'm always curious about the end goal that you're trying to achieve versus short-term goals. So Anthony, over the next decade, whether it be you individually or your philosophy where humanity should go, where do you or humanity, you think humanity ought to be in 10 years? And whether that's achievable or not, it sounds like you're kind of pessimistic that.

• 1:08:34Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, no, I think it's, um, I always say like, my goal is just to be happy, right? And like, that's like a super unmeasurable goal that is, you know, kind of individualistic in, uh, in, um, kind of evaluation, but to me, like, as long as you're happy, then like, you've won. Like, I don't know, I've got a very unique view on this, I think, in that like, I just am constantly reminded, like, we're all gonna die. You're not getting out alive. So like, enjoy it, right? And it's one of these things of, uh, every morning when I wake up, like, this sounds really weird, but literally it's just a shot clock, like, today's gonna tick by, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick. And when today's over, you don't get it back. And then tomorrow, you're gonna do it again.

• 1:09:16Anthony Pompliano?

  And you're gonna get, you know, thousands of those kind of days. Uh, but once it's over, it's over. So, uh, you know, everything else kind of against that backdrop is, uh, is pretty, uh, non-important, uh, from a, from a high level. And then when you dig into the weeds, like, are there other things that are important, of course? Uh, but I think it kind of refocuses you on like, what do you want to actually spend your time on, right?

• 1:09:41Speaker 02

  The science is behind you. Happy people wind up contributing happiness back to the world at larger and larger profit.

• 1:09:48Anthony Pompliano?

  So that is very, very true, my friend. Um, all right, so listen, anyone who's interested in decentralized infrastructure for a future world, if anyone agrees with my general thought process that centralization is a business risk, please go check out, uh, gun dot eco, where you can find out more about, uh, the database, uh, technology and decentralized, decentralized technologies that Mark and Tim are building. Um, and then if you want to learn more about the, uh, philosophy and kind of thought process, you can go to free dot eco. Um, anywhere else you want to send people, are you on Twitter and anything?

• 1:10:22Speaker 02

  Mark Nadal at Twitter, I tweet about all these subjects quite a lot. So it'll be easy for me to engage in dialogue, conversation, the lovely Twitter debates, and route you to other interesting articles, whether it be the empathic civilization or the economics stuff.

• 1:10:39Anthony Pompliano?

  Awesome, man. Well, let's thank you so much for doing this. I'll have to do it again in the future.

• 1:10:42Speaker 02

  Have a great one. Thanks so much for having me on.