E158 - Tom Campbell: A Physicist’s Guide to Consciousness & The Purpose of Life

Physicist Thomas Campbell presents his groundbreaking Theory of Everything: a paradigm-shifting framework that unites science, philosophy, and spirituality under one fundamental principle: consciousness is the base of all reality. In this expansive conversation, Thomas breaks down the nature of consciousness, how we evolve through a simulated reality, and what it means to live in alignment with your purpose. He shares insights from his mystical experiences, out-of-body explorations with Bob Monroe, and how his theory resolves many of science’s biggest unanswered questions. Momentous Creatine - Use Code KNOWTHYSELF for Up to 35% Off https://www.livemomentous.com Try Nourish with Up to 36% Off: https://mudwtr.com/knowthyself Explore the World of High-Quality Handpans: https://ayasainstruments.com Andrés Book Recs: https://www.knowthyselfpodcast.com/book-list ___________ 0:00 Intro 2:14 His Theory of Everything - A Paradigm Shift for Science 8:25 What Consciousness Is at It's Fundamental Aspect 21:15 How Consciousness Evolves: Inside the Simulation 41:58 Discovering This Theory from a Mystical Experience 47:09 Ad: Momentous Creatine 48:16 Sacred Geometry & Interpreting the Metaphor 51:28 How the Theory Came Together & Showed No Flaw 58:50 Working with Bob Monroe & Having Out of Body Experiences 1:01:00 Purpose of Live & How to Tell If You're Living in Alignment 1:10:20 2 Practices to Start on Your Aligned Life 1:19:11 Existing in an Intuitive Space While Having Discernment 1:25:22 Ad: Mudwtr Nourish 1:27:02 The Intellect Can't Grasp This, You Must Experience It 1:31:31 What Is Real? Chakras, Paranormal Experiences, Nonphysical Tools 1:42:20 Embracing the Illusion without Bypassing Being Human 1:46:50 Ad: Ayasa Hand-Pans 1:48:22 Enlightenment Through the Lens of His Theory 1:53:48 Living Beyond Your Concepts 2:02:00 How This Knowledge Transforms Our Life 2:06:31 The Future of Humanity 2:24:19 What a Higher Age of Earth Looks LIke 2:29:43 AI - It's Impact is Our Choice 2:34:45 Aliens & NDEs: Things are Stranger Than We Think... 2:44:30 Get Started Today 2:48:35 Conclusion ___________ Episode Resources: https://www.my-big-toe.com https://www.instagram.com/tomcampbellmbt/ https://www.instagram.com/andreduqum/ https://www.instagram.com/knowthyself/ https://www.youtube.com/@knowthyselfpodcast https://www.knowthyselfpodcast.com

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

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• 1:00Speaker 02

  I'll tell you, there's only one truth, but there's thousands of ways that you can reach that truth. But eventually, you get to the point that all of them converge to the same answer, and that is the way reality is. I was working on my PhD. I realized my mind had access to information that was unknown. That changed my whole life. Suddenly, there was this whole bigger piece of reality that had nothing to do with the physical world. It was another whole set of reality that had to do with consciousness. As a scientist, I wanted to know, how did it work? At first, up until just a year and a half ago, I would have told you that I had a reality model. Not necessarily the model. But after years and years and years, I realized that there wasn't any other answer. And the big breakthrough was that,

• 1:45Speaker 02

  what's the meaning of life? To become love, to grow. That's why you're here. So if you change your gears on life, your life gets better and better because now you're in this virtual reality leveling up. And you'll find that you end up happy.

• 2:04André Duqum?

  Hey, everyone. Welcome back to the Know thyself Podcast. Our guest today is a former nuclear physicist who founded my big theory of everything. His big toe, his big theory of everything, is his theory that unifies philosophy, physics, and metaphysics, and it has immense implications on the meaning of life and how one might navigate their own life. As a reminder, as always, we have timestamps in the description that will kind of walk us through exploring the theory to the different applications and implications around how one might live life most effectively. And but I encourage you to kind of go through this chronologically as we're to start by building the foundation of his theory and

• 2:47André Duqum?

  then going deeper and higher from there. Thomas Campbell, thank you for being here.

• 2:50Speaker 02

  Well, thank you for the invitation.

• 2:52André Duqum?

  You've been quite highly requested to come on this show, and it's a it's a pleasure to have you here now in The Physical. So thank you for making making the trek out.

• 3:01Speaker 02

  Well, thank you for your listeners wanting me to come talk to them. That's good. It's always nice to talk to a friendly audience.

• 3:10André Duqum?

  Yeah. Yeah. I think, you know, for everybody that's tuning in, not everyone's super familiar with your theory. And I think it would be important to just to start very baseline by asking, what is a theory of everything? And then maybe you can share why you felt compelled to create your own.

• 3:28Speaker 02

  Well, a theory of everything is just exactly what it sounds like. It's a theory that explains everything. And I mean, when I say explain, I mean, it explains that as science would explain it. It gives a logical understanding of how everything works, why it works that way, and what are the what are the interfaces? What are all the logical conclusions of the of the basic theory? And it will.

• 4:03Speaker 02

  Create a better physics. It has, it explains things like quantum physics. Why should the reality be probability at the base? Which is what quantum physics says. You get down to the small particles and you don't find mass. You don't find little tiny pieces of mass at all. Matter of fact, the physicists say at a CERN kind of atom smasher, they'll tell you that if they assumed that a particle like electron was a little piece of mass with a charge, they wouldn't get the right answers. That's not what it is. They would tell you that the electron is a point with the attributes of charge and the attributes of math, mass.

• 4:46Speaker 02

  That is how you would describe an electron in a computer program. And that is what the reality is. It really is a computer program. So the physicists now have come to the realization that reality is information based. And they've come to that conclusion, you know, a decade, two decades ago for many of them. Now, that's not all physicists. That's the ones that are on the edge of quantum physics, really. Particle physicists and the quantum theorists mostly. So if you dig down deep into our reality,

• 5:30Speaker 02

  you find information. Now, what does that mean? Well, when you say they have information, that means that it's computable. That reality is computable. An information system can create whatever information. It's a very general information system can create any kind of information. So that means our reality is computable. If it's computable, then that means it can be rendered in a computer.

• 6:06Speaker 02

  And if you think about it, how else could it be rendered? There aren't any other contenders. It's not like, well, it could be rendered in a computer and it... There's nothing else there. So it leaves us with basically a virtual reality. That this reality that we call the physical universe is really a virtual reality, computed. Now, that's a real hard thing to wrap your mind around. And most people hearing that will go, wow, this guy's bonkers. You know, that's impossible. It doesn't make any sense. But it does make sense. But it's a big... You know, and before we're done, it will have made sense. But it's a huge paradigm shift.

• 6:48Speaker 02

  And I would say that it's the next big paradigm shift that will occur in science, in philosophy, in theology. It affects everything. And it's not just about science. If it were just about science, like the other big paradigm shifts, you know, we're not at the center of the universe. Well, they believed that because they didn't understand that the Earth rotated on its axis. They saw the sun and the stars all come up and then set and then come up again and set. So it looked like the Earth was at the center and everything was going around us. It had to be in the center. How else would everything go around us? But the Earth turns on its axis. So that's how everything looks like it's going around us.

• 7:33Speaker 02

  And then the flat Earth versus the round Earth. That was another big paradigm shift. But those two paradigm shifts really only interested science types, philosophy types. It didn't interest a guy in the street. You know, the guy's trying to make a living and survive and get his crops in and get them out in time and so on. He doesn't really care a whole lot about whether the Earth's flat or whether it's round or whether we're at the center of the universe or we're not. But this paradigm shift will affect everyone. Matter of fact, it not only will produce a new, more general, more accurate physics, but it also produces a logical...

• 8:18Speaker 02

  What we call a logical map, a logical understanding of the subjective world as well as the objective world. And we've never had that before. That's new. And it talks about things that are important to that farmer that needs to get the crop in, about his life, about his existence, about what his purpose is, you know, what he should be doing. How do you level up in this game? You know, all of those things are important. They affect your relationships. They affect who you are and how you go about life, the choices you make. So this paradigm shift is one that affects everyone and affects

• 9:00Speaker 02

  everyone very much greatly.

• 9:05André Duqum?

  So you speak about this theory being inclusive of not just the objective world, which the materialist reductionist would be a proponent of focusing on, but also including the subjective world. And one cannot explore the subjective world without exploring the nature of consciousness. And I think to start baseline to build our way up through your theory and its implications, one cannot do that without exploring the perspective of what consciousness is and its fundamental aspect. So walk us through that notion, and then we can go from there.

• 9:42Speaker 02

  Well, the fundamental, if you will, the fundamental understanding that you need to approach this theory of everything is that consciousness is fundamental. Everything else is a derivative of consciousness. Now, that idea

• 10:05Speaker 02

  used to be called, let's see, the Panpsychist? No, that's not the word I'm thinking of. It was the idealism. It was called idealism. Idealism is an idea that what's really real is not this physical world, but something behind this physical world. And Plato had his famous allegory of the people in the cave, and all they could see were their shadows on the wall. And they thought that those shadows were reality. They didn't understand the light behind them casting the shadows. They didn't understand the bigger picture. So they believed that they were the shadows on the wall. Well, that's idealism.

• 10:48Speaker 02

  There's something else out there that's more fundamental than the physical world. And of course, the Buddha said the same thing. He said, "This reality is mea, it's illusion." And of course, it is. So that's true as well. But once you understand consciousness, then you can derive physics from consciousness. I can derive and have derived quantum physics and relativity both, which are the two big gems of physics. I can answer the paradoxes in both of those sciences that they can't answer. There's a lot of questions there. Things they know are true, but they have no idea how or why that they're true.

• 11:31Speaker 02

  Like, why is the speed of light a constant? Why is probability at the base of reality? These are things that they don't know. What does it mean to say that the wave, you know, the probability wave function collapses to a particle? You know, physicists are, they say things like that. And of course, it doesn't make any sense. Probability is a mathematics. How does mathematics written on a piece of paper collapse to a physical particle?

• 12:00Speaker 02

  That's nonsense. Of course, that doesn't happen, but it's a metaphor. And what it looks like is that that happens. It looks like you have probability, and then suddenly you have a particle someplace that you measure. But it just looks like that. It isn't. There's a big difference between what is and what things look like. A very big difference. So consciousness is fundamental. And I have one assumption in my model, just one, and everything else is derived from that logically. And that assumption is that consciousness exists. That's it. That's the sum total of all of my assumptions, is that consciousness exists.

• 12:43Speaker 02

  And what I did was, I started with a... I started with the smallest piece of consciousness, like a consciousness cell, if you will, as an analogy to the, you know, the life and the fauna and the people and everything that's on this planet starts with cells, right? Cells, the basic unit of life. So think of it as a reality cell or a consciousness cell. And I define consciousness as awareness with a choice. That's it. Very simple definition. It's awareness with a choice. But that definition carries a whole lot of things with it. It carries...

• 13:28Speaker 02

  Well, the awareness, that kind of comes in with the assumption of consciousness. That's what consciousness is, awareness, and as a choice. So if you have a choice, that means there was before the choice and after the choice. So time comes in as logically necessary. If you're making a choice, you have to make it based on something and for some purpose. So you get input. And now we get input through our five senses. And then we process that input, and we compare it to what we have in memory. So now we have processing, we have memory. Then we process it a little more and we get an output. What are we gonna do about that input? You know, what does it mean to us? What is its significance?

• 14:13Speaker 02

  So what do you know that has input, processing, memory, and then output? That's an information system. So I modeled consciousness as an information system.

• 14:28Speaker 02

  And I look at all of the fundamental functions of consciousness, and I give them names. I made up names because I didn't want to use the old names because they were associated with this group or that, or this religion or that. And rather than start those arguments, my god is smarter than your gods. You know, I made up my own terms. So I start with a larger consciousness system. That's the whole system. LCS. LCS, right. And then I'm kind of jumping ahead here, but it breaks into parts, and those are individuated units of consciousness with partition off a smaller piece, which is a free will awareness unit. So I come up with these metaphors, really.

• 15:12Speaker 02

  You have to look at those as metaphors. Don't look at them as like physical objects. They're not objects. They're metaphors. It's understanding. Talking about consciousness is a very abstract conversation. Our language is only good for talking about things because it developed for us to communicate about things, you know, each other being things, bodies, things in our environment, whatever. So our language is very material focused and doesn't really have the words and concepts to talk a lot about what's not physical. Which a consciousness is not physical. Consciousness is not created in a brain. Okay, so I'm skipping a lot of steps here,

• 15:57Speaker 02

  but we can go back and fill them in as you want to. So if you have the very smallest piece of consciousness, it's basically an awareness that can be aware of two things, A or B, one or a zero. It's binary. Okay, that's the smallest set of things you're going to be aware of. If you're only aware of one thing, then you wouldn't be able to make a choice. You wouldn't have, you know, that wouldn't work. If there's only one thing, then you're stuck. There's nothing you can do with that. So the smallest thing with a choice is two things. Now, this awareness can be in state one or state two, a one or a zero.

• 16:38Speaker 02

  So it can, then, it has memory. That's part of awareness. Awareness has memory. If it doesn't have memory, then everything it's aware of is the first thing it's ever been aware of, if there's no memory. So you can't build on that. If everything you're aware of is the first thing you've ever been aware of, then you can't build anything with it. There's nothing to build. You have to build the next thing based on what you had before. So you see, just that tiny concept of awareness with a choice has all kinds of logical consequences to a time, free will. You have to have free will, because otherwise, there's no choice without free will.

• 17:23Speaker 02

  If it's a forced choice, then it's not a free choice. It's not really a choice, it just happens. So you have free will, you have time, before and after, and you have consciousness. And all three of those are logically necessary for each other. Okay, so now we have consciousness as an information system, and it evolves. How does a conscious, how does a conscious system, how does an information system evolve? I'm going through kind of key steps that we're going to get there in a hurry, and then we can, we can flesh it out later. So if you have an information system, and if that information system has all of its bits random,

• 18:07Speaker 02

  then there's no information in that system by the definition of random. If all the bits in the system are random, there is no information. But if you take some of those bits and order them, make order out of those bits, so those three bits together, you stack one on top of the other, you know, you make a little triangle out of them, you do something that orders them, and now you have information. And that information can be a symbol for something, could stand for something. It could be the number four, or the letter Z. You have information. Now, what you've done is you've lowered the entropy of the system. Entropy is a measure of disorder. High entropy, lots of disorder.

• 18:50Speaker 02

  Low entropy, less disorder. So when you take all random bits and order some of them, you've lowered the entropy. You've created order. And from that, you can see that this little consciousness cell, if you will, that's just binary, it has memory. So it can remember that it was in a state A, and then a B, and then another B, and then an A, and an A, and a B, and an A. And it can start with its memory, building patterns. And those patterns now are more order, lower entropy. And those patterns can stand for something, too. And you may have this pattern and that pattern, and now you have two patterns. So...

• 19:33Speaker 02

  And then you have four patterns, and you can group those four patterns into two of two. So you very quickly end up with mathematics out of, you know, the patterns. It's kind of obvious. You just stumble into mathematics because it's about quantity. Mathematics is nothing more than the logic of quantity. And the reason math is so valuable to scientists who are studying the physical world is that the physical world is totally in terms of quantity. How much does it weigh? How... What volume does it have? You know, what's it composed of? It's all about quantity. So math describes those things. It is the logic of quantity. That's what numbers are.

• 20:16Speaker 02

  Addition, subtraction, multiplication, all of it is just the logic of quantity. So math is really good at describing things that are based on quantity. And it's really poor at describing things that are based on quality. In the objective world, you have quantity. In the subjective world, you have quality. They're different things. So what happens in the subjective world? Math doesn't seem to apply to that. Well, it doesn't. When you have the objective worlds, you have an intellect that processes logic in that world. And when you are in the intuitive side, that's processing the subjective side,

• 20:58Speaker 02

  that is just, information comes in whole chunks. So our consciousness has two ways of processing information. The intellectual side, the logic, and the intuitive side, beyond logic, you just get the information. Now, as it turns out, of course, in our culture, we really put high value on that intellect. And people earn rewards in a, in a society based on how well they can use that intellect, how they can apply it. And our intuitive side is neglected almost entirely. Matter of fact, science will tell you that there is no such thing as an intuitive side.

• 21:40Speaker 02

  Intuition is all just bogus nonsense. You had that idea all along, you just didn't know. You know, they, they kind of say that's not there. But this model also describes very clearly everything paranormal. Why it happens, what the mechanism is. And everything paranormal happens on the intuitive side. Nothing paranormal ever happens on the intellectual side. That's where all, that's where the spiritual side is also. It's over there on the intuitive side. So, anyway, let me get back onto the subject here. So we have these cells of reality, let's say, of consciousness.

• 22:21Speaker 02

  And it is expanding its memory and expanding its, its, uh, its patterns and...

• 22:33Speaker 02

  Then it finds out that it can just switch between a one and a zero, or an A or a B, back and forth, back and forth, and it's just created a metronome. Oh, now, there's not only time that you have because before the choice and after the choice, but now you have a thing called regular time. And now it can not only make patterns, it can make sequences, and sequences of patterns, and patterns of sequences, and it can get more and more complex. As it gets more complex, there's more order, it's lowering its entropy. So we come to a very basic thing in my model, and that is, an information system, consciousness, evolves by lowering its entropy.

• 23:16Speaker 02

  And the entropy just isn't putting all the bits in a row. That's a very low order of entropy. It's the meaning, the significance of those bits. So you discover mathematics and arithmetic, and addition and subtraction, and which leads to algebra, which leads to calculus, which leads to differential equations, which goes on and on. All of that then comes later. It's all, again, the logic of quantity. So all those things will develop from this one consciousness cell. Now, there's two ways to think of this, and they both go to exactly the same place, and they're equivalent entirely. One of them is the cell that just keeps growing and expanding and evolving,

• 23:59Speaker 02

  and everything that happens is all part of its memory. You know, Hawking said in his last line in his book, he said, "Perhaps we're all just a flicker in the mind of God." Well, that's something like that. It's just this one thing, and we're part of that vast memory in the mind of God. But the other way is that those little conscious cells do what biological cells do. They split. Now you've got two, and then four, and then eight. And then they cooperate and connect and work with each other. And eventually you end up something like us say, that we did in biology with, what?

• 24:43Speaker 02

  Four trillion cells all cooperating with each other? Each one of those cells is sort of like a bacterium. So we're, our bodies are composed of trillions of bacteria, if you like, that are all cooperating with each other. So now we have the idea that consciousness is an information system. The information system evolves to states of lower entropy. Okay, now it grows and evolves and keeps evolving to lower and lower entropy. And eventually it hits a plateau. Because what it needs is new possibilities to evolve into, you know, new ways, new patterns, new sequences, new ways of looking at things.

• 25:28Speaker 02

  Well, it kind of hits a plateau because it's just one mind. It's one monolithic consciousness. And it can only think what it can think. So what it does is the same thing cell did. You know, we had a lot of little one-celled creatures. And what they did is that they create, created something else out of itself. It took a subset out of itself. So you have this larger conscious system, monolithic, takes a subset out of itself, which means it partitions off some memory and some processing and whatever. In computer terms, we call that a, what a virtual machine inside the mainframe.

• 26:12Speaker 02

  You know, that's how thousands of people can log on to a mainframe. Because each person gets a little chunk of memory, gets a, you know, gets a chunk of processing and so on. And that's a virtual computer inside a big computer. So it partitions off a piece of itself and gives that piece of itself free will. That it can make choices as well. Here's all the stuff it needs to make choices. It is processing and so on. So now it has free will. Well, when you have multiple things all with free will. They begin to diverge. They end up having different experiences, different ways of seeing things, different attitudes. So it makes thousands, tens of thousands, millions of these things, and they all have free will.

• 26:55Speaker 02

  Now you have arguments and discussions and challenges, and that creates another much larger set of possibilities. Because the possibilities of the group are much greater than the possibilities of the monolithic thing. Okay, now we're getting closer and closer to the kind of us. So those little pieces, I call them individuated units of consciousness, are just subsets of the larger system, and they have all the same properties of the system, they're just smaller. Not as much processing, not as much memory, they're just a smaller unit.

• 27:34Speaker 02

  So they can evolve themselves to be as low entropy as the system itself. But they'll never be as big, because they're subsets. Okay, but they can be as good. They can lower their entropy as well. So that's us. We are these individuated units of consciousness. Now, the first virtual reality that the system made, now it's a system, it's got the the big consciousness still there, but a lot of subsets that have free will. The first virtual reality, and a virtual reality is basically a rule set. Everybody in this, everybody that joins this game has to obey by these rules.

• 28:19Speaker 02

  That defines a virtual reality. First virtual reality was communication protocols. How could they communicate with each other? Well, you need vocabulary and syntax and all that sort of thing. So that was the first virtual reality. Join this group, and you get to communicate by these rules. You abide by the, by those rules. You can change the rules, but you have to have rules for the communication. But the second virtual reality was all of those individuated units of consciousness with their free will. They needed to...

• 28:52Speaker 02

  Make better choices. They needed to make choices that lowered their entropy. Okay, that's what, that's what consciousness does. It's an information system. It evolves by lowering its entropy. It's hard to lower your entropy in what I call a big jet room. All these little pieces of consciousness, they can all communicate with each other now, but they could say whatever they wanted to say. You know, there wasn't a whole lot of traction or a whole lot of significance in that, and they grew up very slowly. So the larger consciousness system, that was the daddy of them all, the father, if you will, it decided it had to create another virtual reality, but one that had a very tight rule set,

• 29:37Speaker 02

  one that would define every interaction. Every interaction would be defined, and every interaction could affect every other reaction. In other words, it's a tight rule set, which is the way our universe, what we call the physical universe, is a virtual reality with a tight rule set. Everything has a certain energy, right? A certain momentum, a certain state vector can do things. But when it does things, let's say if it moves its energy this way, then that affects somebody over there. And that thing then responds to that. And when it responds, it changes, you know, it interacts with people next to it and so on. So it's a very interactive space

• 30:22Speaker 02

  where everything requires an energy exchange of some sort. So it's very interactive. Now, it creates this virtual reality, not like we create virtual realities, we program them. This one was created by coming up with a rule set. And a set of initial conditions punching the run button and let the initial conditions change according to the rules. And we do this in computer science labs. And we've been doing that for 20 years in computer science labs where you come up with rules set and conditions and you see where it goes. And then you play with the conditions and play with the rule set and it goes different places.

• 31:04Speaker 02

  So it did that and I call that the big digital bang. And the initial conditions were a ball of plasma, high temperature, high pressure. And when the run button was hit, it expanded according to the rule set. And you've all heard the big bang. It expands, it creates suns and planets and so on. So that's the, you know, that's the big digital bang, so to speak. So our reality then evolved as a simulation in a computer based on a rule set and initial conditions. Now, that rule set is what scientists are supposed to do. They dig out the rules. What are the rules in this virtual reality? Well, if I flap my arms, am I gonna fly?

• 31:49Speaker 02

  No, rule set doesn't support it. Oh, I get brain damage because I fell off a cliff? Maybe I no longer have memory and maybe I dragged my left foot when I walked because of that. Well, that's because the rule set says that with that damage, that would be the consequence. You see? So this virtual reality perked along until it developed entities within the virtual reality by evolution. So it evolved again, stars, suns, planets, Earth, you know, biological cells, plants, animals, people, all got developed. Now, here's an interesting part of this.

• 32:34Speaker 02

  You have these entities interacting and they evolve by lowering their entropy. Now, I'm going to associate lowering their entropy with love. There's a connection between lowering entropy and love. Take a group of people.

• 32:54Speaker 02

  That and another group of people that's identical, put them all in a separate space. And this group of people, let's say, the love group, they all care about each other. They're all helpful. They're all interested in, in being part of the solution for everybody. Okay, and there's the fear group over here. They're fearful. When you're fearful, you don't trust. When you're fearful, it's all about you. You become very self-centered. You want to grab whatever you can grab and fight to, fight to keep it and so on. So you let these two groups just evolve and see where they go. Well, what do you think? Which one is the low entropy and the high entropy? It's rather obvious, isn't it? The low entropy group will optimize.

• 33:38Speaker 02

  They will optimize whatever resources they have for all the people involved. That's the low entropy solution. The fear group will initially, they'll just beat each other up for a while to try to get each other stuff because it's all about them, self-centered. Then they'll realize that there's powers and numbers and they'll group up into various groups. Now, this group can take a lot of stuff because there's 20 people in that group and they can beat up all sorts of people with that power. So then another one gets 20 for a defense against that group and then another one and, and so on it goes. And eventually, enough time, you end up with what we have in our world, which is a fear-based world for the most part.

• 34:20Speaker 02

  You have a lot of groups, nation-states we call them. And it's all about offense and defenses. You know, how much can you get? And can you, can you keep it and hold it? So you end up with that kind of a reality. And that's a very high entropy. High entropy means that you don't have optimal solutions. It means that what, you know, 90% of the resources are controlled by 5% of the people.

• 34:49Speaker 02

  And you have hierarchy, the people on top and actually different levels and so on. So it turns out kinda like us. So that tells you that consciousness, this is modeled best by an information system, and consciousness evolves to lower its entropy. Consciousness evolves toward love, toward cooperation, caring, sharing. That's how consciousness evolves. That's the direction. So I said, you make choices. Consciousness makes choices. Well, if it makes those choices toward becoming love, then it evolves. If it makes those choices toward becoming fearful, it de-evolves.

• 35:31Speaker 02

  So now you have consciousness with free will that can evolve or de-evolve, based on its own free will choices. Now, we'll go back to connecting that with the virtual reality. So now this virtual reality that is just evolving, ends up with monkeys and people and whales and everything in it. All those entities can be conscious. How do you get to be conscious? How do, you know, you and I end up with consciousness? It's because some, some piece of consciousness, the things I call the, the individuated units of consciousness,

• 36:10Speaker 02

  take a subset of themselves and log it on to an avatar. But the system had to wait until the avatars were capable of making ethical and moral choices, choices that were between low entropy and high entropy choices. So it got to humans and that was good. Now, did the system meddle a little bit, that process? Sure, we all do that, you know? It was going along and we wasn't getting any good avatars, so it probably meddled a little here, meddled a little there to make it come out the way it wanted it to. But for the most part, it just let it run. If you just let things run, then it's completely coherent. Everything, you know, kinda like has its cause.

• 36:54Speaker 02

  You don't have, suddenly things change. So that tells us, who are we? We're pieces of consciousness.

• 37:04Speaker 02

  We are logged on to a human avatar. That avatar is computed, same as avatar in a computer game. Okay, now if you play a computer game, some kind of virtual reality computer game, there's only two things that are active there, only two things that are real. One, the computer, and two, the player. The actual game, the world of Warcraft, the elves and the barbarians or the sim characters, pardon my old view of virtual reality games, I'm not up to current times with that. My memory goes back to what my kids played, and my kids are all now 40 or approaching 40, so I go back a ways.

• 37:47Speaker 02

  But anyhow, you have just two things, the computer and the player, that are active, real things. The virtual reality is just computed, it's eye candy. It gives you something to look at so that you can tell what's going on in the game. If you had to look at a printout and figure it out, it would be hopeless. But they make a nice pretty picture of what's going on and who's doing what, then you can look at it and at a glance, kind of understand the environments you're in and what your choices are. Okay, so if you're playing that game, let's say you're an elf in some game, well, let's say you're an elf and you're aware, or at least you think you're aware. Where would the computer be?

• 38:31Speaker 02

  A computer would be non-physical, because to the elf, that virtual reality is what's physical. So the computer would be non-physical. And what would the player be? Well, you think you're the player. I'm the player, I'm the elf. But the player has to talk to the computer. Elves in virtual realities can't talk to the computer, they're computed by the computer.

• 38:57Speaker 04

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• 39:27Speaker 01

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• 39:56André Duqum?

  Connected to the larger consciousness system.

• 39:59Speaker 02

  Connected to the larger, yes. So it's a piece of consciousness has to talk. The two things that are passing data back and forth is the free will awareness unit, which is truly a piece of the individual unit of consciousness. It's talking to the computer. It gets a data stream. It looks at that data and interprets it as this reality. Okay, just like you look at a million dots of light on your screen, or if you've got a really good screen, maybe 10 million dots of light on your screen. And you look at all those dots and each dot has a color, a brightness, and a position. That's it. You've got three pieces of information for every dot. You look at all those millions of dots and you see streams and rivers and barbarians

• 40:43Speaker 02

  and houses and doorknobs on the doors of those houses. And the rule set says you have to turn the doorknob before the door will open and you abide by the rule set. So that's, that's a very quick idea that, that says what we are. We're in a virtual reality. Consciousness is the computer. Consciousness is an information system so it can take a piece of itself and configure it as a computer to be the rendering engine for this virtual reality so that the pieces of consciousness can make choices that are meaningful and significant and carry a lot of weight. And by those choices that they make, they evolve positively toward love

• 41:28Speaker 02

  or they evolve backwards, they evolve toward fear. So that's kind of the overall model. Now, as crazy as that sounds, I got there not because I sat down one day and thought this all up. I got there because...

• 41:51Speaker 02

  And around, I don't know, in my early, I don't know, really my middle twenties, myself and a fellow that worked with me, Dennis Menrick, we got with Bob Monroe.

• 42:03André Duqum?

  Yeah. Tom, before we jump into that, that story, because I think it's actually really important to see how you arrived at this point. Just as a recap, because we covered, I know, which is probably the tip of the iceberg of your theory and understanding of it all, but to help kind of me digest and everybody digest the overview of what you just gave, we started at the fact that consciousness is fundamental.

• 42:29Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 42:30André Duqum?

  And that because we can observe that reality is information based, we could extrapolate that there is a larger consciousness system that has a rule set of time, space, and matter, which within we are exempt, you could say that we are individuated units of consciousness. And within this reality, the perception of evolution is to move from fear to love. And by lowering entropy, we evolve. And so when you're, when reflecting on who we are, what this reality is, we could, we could pick apart many of those things. But what's interesting to me is what's in our apparent differences of ethnicity and the place we were raised

• 43:15André Duqum?

  in and the memory that we accumulated and the illusion of separation between Tom and Andre that feel like two separate things. What's unanimous within both of our experience is that there is an experience of awareness, that individuated unit of awareness of consciousness that you spoke to, and how in recognizing that, we see how we are much more alike than we are different.

• 43:39Speaker 02

  Yes. Matter of fact, that old saying that says we're all one is a fact. We are. We all come from the same system. We're all pieces of consciousness from one system. So we really are all individuated pieces of one thing.

• 43:58André Duqum?

  And you came to this experientially first because you were a nuclear physicist who was on your path, very much so on the side of logic, how you spoke to there's two paths of knowing intuition and logic. You are on the path, very much so of the intellect. And then you got exposed to these practices via Bob Monroe and TM. Walk us through your journey of how you arrived there.

• 44:20Speaker 02

  Okay. I was, had a masters already, working on my PhD. And, and those were the bad old days of computing where there were punch cards and debugging software was a really hard thing to do because they didn't have debugging software. They didn't have anything other than, I'm sorry, your job didn't run. That's all the information you'd get. So I found, just after learning how to meditate, I did TM, learned how to meditate. It was very easy for me. I picked up on it instantly. And I found that I could go to a meditation state, let the, the printout of my cards,

• 45:00Speaker 02

  my punch cards, which would be like a listing on a computer roll. And I could see that where the cards were that had a problem, that were creating errors.

• 45:11André Duqum?

  It would just appear in your awareness?

• 45:13Speaker 02

  It would just appear in my awareness. I mean, I'd actually see the list. I'd see the, most of it's black and oh, here'd be a, a red line. And I'd back, back up and I'd look at it and I'd recognize the line because I wrote all the code.

• 45:23André Duqum?

  So you would gain cognition of information that was not derived through the intellect?

• 45:28Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 45:29André Duqum?

  But it was still valid?

• 45:30Speaker 02

  Yes. And first when I did that, I thought, well, that's fun, but it probably doesn't work. And I went and I found that it did work. It was precise. And I started playing with it more. And it got easier and better as I went. And I could even find errors in those cards that had nothing to do with my programming. They were errors in positioning the hole that the, that the card punch, punch. If it's a tenth of a millimeter in the wrong space, it's unreadable by the computer.

• 46:03André Duqum?

  And that's because both the cards or the bugs and yourself as a unit of consciousness.

• 46:10André Duqum?

  Share both in that information stream, like that data stream you both have access to. Because people, I would just love for you, and you can continue to go through your story, but how it's physically possible or non-physically possible that you could have access to something beyond the intellect.

• 46:29Speaker 02

  Yes, well, that information is in a database. And the database is required in order to render the virtual reality. In order to render this virtual reality, it needs certain information to do the rendering. And we can get into that later. You know, how does the system know what's going to happen next? Because this is not a bottom up where the last set creates the next set. This is probability. So the system has to know how to do that. It does it with a random draw from a probability distribution of the possibilities. So it has to know what the possibilities are. And it has to know what's the probability of each of those possibilities. And that's the data set that's available. Now, the ancient Hindus called that the Akashic records.

• 47:13Speaker 02

  And as far as they know, it just was there because it was there. I know why it's there because it's necessary to run the virtual reality. For the rendering engine has to have that information or it can't run the virtual reality. So I tapped into that. And everything is there because everything is rendered. Everything here, everything physical, including those cards and the key punch and the holes, and everything's being rendered. And the machine that reads those cards, all of that's being rendered. And it's according to the rule set. So all the information is there. And you can connect to that information with your consciousness because that's all in consciousness. You really are a piece of consciousness.

• 47:58Speaker 02

  So you're part of that consciousness system and the information is available to you. But it's not available to you through your intellect. It's available to you through your intuition. You connect to it, kind of mind to mind, if you will. You make a connection to that database. And it's like any other database. You can query it and you get answers. And then you refine your query and you'll get better answers and refine it again.

• 48:26André Duqum?

  Have you found that's all is necessary? Like the intention or when you say set a query?

• 48:31Speaker 02

  Yes, that's all that's necessary. That's the only.

• 48:35Speaker 02

  Intention with a consciousness, an intention of a consciousness is, as we say in physics, the modi force. It's the thing that makes things happen. It's the only active ingredient. With that intention, you can heal. With that intention, you can get data out of the database. With that intention, you can go visit a past life. With that intention, you can do pretty much anything because you're a piece of consciousness. You have access to the data that's in consciousness. You can explore that larger consciousness system.

• 49:08André Duqum?

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• 49:50André Duqum?

  any fillers or junk. Their new lemon flavored, single-serve travel packs are amazing. They make it easy to stay consistent. You just mix it with water and it tastes amazing. If you're curious about trying them out, you can head to livemomentous.com and use code KNOWTHEYSELF for up to 35% off your first order. That's know [email protected]. Link in description. As always, I hope you like it. Hope you enjoy. Back to the show. As a quick aside, is there a unique relationship between the information in the data stream and geometry? I'm curious how like, is that information in, because a lot of people have experiences of geometric shapes and, you know, and mystical experiences where there's

• 50:32André Duqum?

  inherent information seeming embedded in geometric shapes?

• 50:36Speaker 02

  Well, there is information based in geometric shapes, but that information is mostly in the form of mathematics and quantity. You know, geometry, symmetry itself, you know, is, has information. How many sides does it have? How long is each side? You know, and they all have to add up to a circumference. So. Are the sides regular or are they irregular? So all of that is information that defines the figure. But no, there's nothing inherent in geometry that is, you know, that is between you and the information. Put it that way now. How that information is stored? How the LCS stores that? What form is it stored in? You know, is it like we store information in bits?

• 51:21Speaker 02

  Or do they have some other more elegant and efficient way of storing information? Well, I don't know that. All I know is that the information is there and it's not geometry dependent. But why would people get this? You know, and it happens a lot. Get these geometric things. Well, the geometric shapes are a metaphor for order. They're a metaphor for purpose. In other words, you don't get a hexagram out of randomness. If you see geometric shapes and you see things are made of that. To me, that's a metaphor for saying this is purposeful. This is ordered. Coherent. There is coherence here and structure.

• 52:05Speaker 02

  And that's really the metaphor, not so much that that hexagram has special meaning in and of itself, other than it's a good metaphor for the structure and the coherence of consciousness. So it tells us that. A lot of things that we get from the larger conscious system are metaphorical. Mostly they're metaphorical. So it's usually an error if you look at it as a precise thing. You have to look at it more as a metaphor, something that gives you a sense of a bigger thing. It's symbolic. Our dreams are that way. When we dream, we sometimes dream in details, but basically our dreams are metaphors that we can interpret.

• 52:50Speaker 02

  Oh, this means that. And this person was a symbol for this other thing. And, you know, they're metaphorical. And that your connections with the larger conscious system, when you're particularly if you're asking questions. They have a kind of a strong metaphorical bias to them. If you're asking very specific questions like, where's the error in this line? Well, then you get a very specific answer. You don't get a metaphor. You get an answer that says, you know, repunch the card. Retype in, you know, the card punch and get a new card and that'll fix the problem. So you get that as an answer. So then what happened to you as you were experiencing these things? Well, like I say, I was working on my PhD at the university.

• 53:35Speaker 02

  I realized my mind had access to information that was unknown, unknowable even. How could, you can't look at a card and say, oh, that hole isn't there. It's, it's a tenth of a millimeter, you know, one way or another. And that's totally impossible to see that visually. So it wasn't just that it was getting information somehow out of the depth of my own consciousness that I knew when I punched that key that it was going to be wrong. It obviously knew things that were information that was unavailable, period. Unavailable. If you'd got a bunch of people together and say, what's wrong with this line of code? They said nothing.

• 54:20Speaker 02

  And then maybe you would concluded, well, let's repunch it and see if it was an error. But there's nothing looking at it would tell you it was an error. So that was information that was obviously not out of the physical world. And at that point, that changed my whole life. I said, oh, I'm a physicist. What physicists do is we model reality. That's our job is to model reality. And suddenly there was this whole bigger piece of reality that I was just starting to get a glimpse of and had nothing to do with the physical world. It was another whole set of reality that had to do with mind and with consciousness. And as a scientist, I wanted to know, how did it work? What could you do? What else could I do with it?

• 55:06Speaker 02

  And I was inquisitive, so I played with it. And two or three years later, I got out of school. I went to work, met this meteauric, ran into Bob Monroe. And now I'm 26, 27, something like that. And

• 55:23Speaker 02

  I'm spending now fifteen to twenty hours a week with Bob Monroe, and he's teaching myself and Dennis how to go out of body, how to connect intuitively. And we do that, and we get to the point that we can do it exactly whenever we want to. It's not a long process, it's a short process. You can go from aware here to aware someplace else in fractions of a second, and still be here. You can parallel process more than one reality. So I learned all these things and how to reproduce it pretty exactly, so that I could do science there. So I could say, okay, I've learned how to heal people, and it works. I've healed two hundred people, and some of them, you don't know. Maybe their headache got better anyway.

• 56:07Speaker 02

  You know, you don't really know. But other times, somebody who hasn't walked for ten years, and are told that they'll never walk again, and you work on them, and they get up and dance. You know, so you get things like that, and suddenly, that's very eventual. But it just happened once, maybe it was a fluke. So you keep doing it. Eventually, you get the idea that you're able to heal. So you start, you start doing, I started doing research on it. Well, if I change this variable, how does that affect the result? And sometimes it would have a negative effect, sometimes a positive effect, sometimes no effect at all. And thirty-five years later, I had a real good idea how all the paranormal stuff worked,

• 56:49Speaker 02

  because I was able to do it and do research like that with what, what could I do differently, and how would that affect the result? So I came up with a models of all the paranormal things. And then I was, actually, then I wrote the books. And the book was mainly a thesis on consciousness. And I knew that it also had to derive the physical, because I knew consciousness was fundamental. I knew consciousness had to lead to science. But I didn't exactly know how. And then about three years after I published the books, it came to me. A friend I was working with said something to me that just was the right word at the right time, and it jarred my mind, and I go, oh, that's how it works.

• 57:34Speaker 02

  And then after that, I got quantum physics, I got relativity, and I started solving. All the things, both in philosophy and physics, and some things in psychology and metaphysics, they all fell into place. Everything made sense, including the paranormal. So I had all these puzzle pieces that I had gathered in thirty years of spending probably twenty hours a week working on it. It's like a half-time job. And I had a hundred or a thousand puzzle pieces. I knew this was true, and that was true, and that was true. But what would pull them all together? So they all worked out a, you know, from one idea, one conception had pulled them all together.

• 58:19Speaker 02

  And it had to include all the physical stuff I knew as a physicist. All of that had to also fit together with the one idea. And then when the solution to quantum physics came, then all the rest of it poured in within the next six months. It just all fell, you know, as the pieces go together, it's easier to fit the pieces in. The hardest part is the first, you know, the first ten parts of the puzzle are really difficult. But the more you get it done, the easier it is to fill in the other parts. So the other parts filled in pretty quickly. And at first, up until just probably a year and a half ago, I would have told you that I had a model, a reality model, not necessarily the model. I'd just come up with this model, and it worked.

• 59:03Speaker 02

  Worked really well, but I didn't have an idea that maybe something else might work better. But after years and years and years searching for that other thing, searching for a flaw, what is it in my model that doesn't work? What is in there that is not logical? Is there anything it does not explain? And if so, why? What's the hang-up? And years and years of searching for problems, I didn't find any. And eventually, I realized that there wasn't any other answer. This was the only answer that had come out because it was logical. There wasn't any other way to get to the same thing. Now, you could get to the same thing with different metaphors.

• 59:47Speaker 02

  You know, I'll tell you, there's only one truth, but there's thousands of ways that you can reach that truth. There's not just one path to that truth. Thousands of ways to reach that truth. But eventually, you get to the point that all of them converge to the same answer, and that is the way reality is. That's then the truth. And all of the other ways can be explained based on that truth. And all the other ways are useful. They're all helpful. There isn't just one path to take to the truth. Lots of passes will lead you to the truth. But there is just one truth, because that's the truth. You know, the truth isn't a double or triple function. All three of these are the truth.

• 1:00:30Speaker 02

  Now, there's just one that's the truth. So that was how I ended up here, is I had all of this experience out of body. You know, I did all the things paranormal. You know, I have, I'd let something talk through me. You know, I did that kind of thing. I would, you know, we'd go up and have a microphone over our lips, and we'd tell Bob what we were experiencing, and he would give us suggestions of what to do, or what to ask for or something. So he was in the control room, and Dennis and I were in these isolation booths. Matter of fact, the booth that I was in was also a Faraday cage. It was isolated from all electromagnetic fields as well. And if you do that thousands of times,

• 1:01:14Speaker 02

  you get not only pretty good at it, but you get to understand why things work the way they do, because you've tried it enough different ways that you understand what works and what doesn't, and why. And you can explore those differences. So that's what I did. Eventually led me to the bigger picture for everything. The big breakthrough, I was about two-thirds of the way writing my book, and the big breakthrough was that consciousness was an information system. I didn't start with that. I ended up with that, because that's the one thing that tied all the pieces together. And then bingo, all these pieces fell in, and there's the picture. You know, so it took me a lot of years. This wasn't a quick.

• 1:01:58Speaker 02

  Quick trail to this model. It took a lot of time. But I'm a scientist, I'm a physicist, so I don't mind going slowly. It has to be logical. It has to be such that I can describe it to another scientist and they can end up at the same conclusion. So though the leap is large, it's a new paradigm. And that paradigm is huge. But it works. And it does answer these questions in physics. It is a better physics. It describes things that the physics knows are true but can't understand.

• 1:02:42Speaker 02

  It's also, like I say, it's a model of the subjective as well. If you're unhappy, or you're sad, or you're struggling, it can tell you why. And it can tell you what you need to do to not be unhappy and struggling. And what's causing that. And it's interesting because, of course, the Buddha, you know, Jesus, Muhammad, all of the big stars, and I guess Lao Tzu, you know, also, he wasn't the only one, but in the Tao. You know, all of these got to the same answer. When it's all the dust settles, I'm not saying anything.

• 1:03:23Speaker 02

  It hasn't been said at least four times by, you know, different people. It's all the same stuff because they got to that truth. But they got there and explained it to what I would call poetry. You have to know how to interpret it. You have to know how to interpret their words. A materialist reads the words that the Buddha said, "This is all maya, it's all an illusion." They go, "Oh, nonsense. Physical world is the physical world. This is, you know, this is the stuff." So if you can't interpret the words, then it's just poetry. You read the Bhagavad Gita and there's some guy on a chariot fighting a war. And what the hell does that mean? What's going on there?

• 1:04:04Speaker 02

  But if you understand what's being said, the poetry that you have to interpret, then it can be a very meaningful discussion of life and connections with other people and thinking and attitudes. There's a lot of things there that are very important. But my work... I wanted to not have people have to interpret it. I wanted to be logically clear, so that the left brainers in the world, those logical process people that have to go from A to B logically, or they can't get there, that's an order ramp for them. So the logical process people can get to my Big To Trilogy and find themselves being,

• 1:04:46Speaker 02

  having a good understanding of the paranormal, of spirituality, the nature of our reality, why things work the way they do, and they not only will find better physics, but they'll find themselves in there, and they'll find, what's their mission? What are they here for? What's the meaning of life? Well, the meaning of life is to lower your entropy, to grow, to become love. That's why you're here. You're here in an entropy reduction trainer, and just like a flight trainer, you know, that the pilots get into, this is an entropy reduction trainer, run by the larger consciousness system, and we interact with each other, creating challenges for each other, and the

• 1:05:29Speaker 02

  way we, the way we make choices, is what really counts. So, you know, most people run their life this way. They try to manipulate what's gonna happen. Well, I want my kids to grow up and be professionals, I want my wife to, you know, do this and that and be a really good cook, you know, I wanna do this. So they kind of have these ideas, and you're constantly applying a little pressure here and a little pressure there, and manipulating information, trying to make the world come out the way you know it's best, and the way that's good for everybody, from your own viewpoint. And you're constantly struggling, because it never works. You, that's not a good way to approach life. A better way is let whatever happens, happens.

• 1:06:13Speaker 02

  And what's important is not what happens, but how you deal with it. That's what's important. So if you change your gears on life, stop trying to make it come out the way you know it's best for yourself and everybody else, and just let it be, and deal with it positively. Deal with it. Find the, find the low entropy path there as best you can. And if you can't, and you're wrong, you make a higher entropy choice, well, that's okay, no penalty. The whole point is learning. What's the problem is if you don't learn? If it's a failure to learn, then that is not so good. But making mistakes, coming up with the wrong answer, that's fine.

• 1:06:57Speaker 02

  That's the path of learning. We learn from making mistakes. So I think this is a low entropy path and I take it now, no, you know, it creates a lot of trouble. Then I have to think about that. Why did I miss that? Why didn't I understand that that trouble was likely to happen? And then I learn from it. It was something about me, probably some fear I had or some other blinder on that I didn't see that as a possibility. Or I didn't understand those people very well. I was judging them and oh, here's the way they are and here's the way they work. And that judgment was all wrong. So that tells me to stop judging people. So you learn from it and then your life gets better and better. Because now you're in this virtual reality leveling up,

• 1:07:43Speaker 02

  doing what you should be doing, growing, becoming love. And you'll find that you end up happy most of the time. You smile, life is good. It doesn't matter so much what happens. It's all how you deal with it that matters.

• 1:07:57André Duqum?

  What are some other telltale signs that you're living in alignment with the larger consciousness system? If it is the primary purpose to lower entropy, if one is doing that, what would be the byproducts of that in life?

• 1:08:12Speaker 02

  Well, one really easy way to kind of measure how you're doing is to look at the last, I don't know, whatever you can remember. Say the last week. Go back in your memory and remember what you did for the last week. Or if you can only the last day, that's all right. But remember it. And if during that day or week, keep track of how many times you had negative feelings. When did you feel upset, hurt, angry, abused, misunderstood? Well, not just misunderstood, but misunderstood in a kind of a negative way. Stress, all of those things. There was certainly anger.

• 1:09:00Speaker 02

  Upset at other people. And think, how many times did I have negative feelings? Most people only have to go back about two hours to find a negative feeling. Most people have negative feelings all the time. Just the news makes them angry. Everything kind of makes them angry. People that disagree with them makes them angry. But if you grow up, that's not the case. You can say, well, I haven't had any negative feelings for as long back as I can see. Well, now you're doing really, really well. You are a low entropy person. If you're the average person, you have negative feelings off and on regularly. As you grow up, it's less and less.

• 1:09:43Speaker 02

  So that's how you can tell about how you're doing. Just the negative feelings. Annoyed, upset, shouldn't be that way. Those people, they're screwing it all up for the rest of us, you know? This kind of, of, of attitude. And we tend to blame everybody else for the things that we don't like. George made me angry. George doesn't make you angry. You choose to be angry. You have some sort of fear and George just resonated with that fear of yours and you get angry. So, nobody makes you angry. Nobody makes you upset. Nobody makes you have negative feelings.

• 1:10:28Speaker 02

  All that comes out of yourself. So when you get rid of the fear, you get rid of the ego, you get rid of the beliefs. Beliefs are traps. You get rid of the beliefs. You're a happy camper. You enjoy your life, you smile a lot, you laugh, you play, and you're very productive. You get a lot done. And anything you need or want falls at your feet, just as you need and want it. Life just, you seem to be very lucky, but you're not lucky. You're just leveling up in a game that's all about.

• 1:11:08Speaker 02

  You know, lowering your entropy, becoming, becoming love. So that's how you know. If you look at your life and say, well, my life is just a series of struggles. I thought if I just get past this, if this relationship just worked out, if this, my boss just gave me this raise, everything would be good after that. And it may be good for a few weeks after that, or maybe even a few months. But you always end up back in that same spot with this hurdle that you have to get by or have to get over. If I could just get over this and if that were true, everything would be downhill after that. And it doesn't work that way. The only way everything is downhill after that is if you grow up

• 1:11:47Speaker 02

  and, and start caring and sharing and cooperating, having compassion, you help people, you stop asking what's in it for me. And instead you ask, how can I help? Then your life gets to be good and happy.

• 1:12:09André Duqum?

  To bring this down to the immediately practical for people. If one wants to begin exploring in any program to develop one's own consciousness, I've heard you speak to how it must therefore start by getting acquainted and spending time exploring your own consciousness. So for those that want to deepen on that path of exploration, is meditation the place that you, you advise most people to start?

• 1:12:37Speaker 02

  Well, meditation is the, kind of the, the given answer to that question. Yes, you, everybody starts with meditation. But it's not the only path. There are two paths. And meditation has been the path of choice for centuries, if not millennia. Get acquainted with your own mind, quiet your mind, learn to be able to sit for as long as you want to, an hour, two hours with this, no thoughts, just be with your own mind. When you get into that space, you let the world go, you're no longer, your senses are no longer processing sense data.

• 1:13:19Speaker 02

  So you're really not here anymore because processing sense data is what here, you know, what defines here. So you're not really here anymore. And where are you? You're just, you know, it's the Descartes moments. You're just, you know, I think therefore they are, you know, I'm conscious, I'm aware, therefore I am.

• 1:13:36Speaker 02

  And when you get there, all you need from that point is an intention to do whatever it is you want to do. Now you are a mind in the consciousness system, and you are able to explore that system, gather data from that system, meet others out there in the non-physical, talk to dead people, whatever you want, you know? That's available to you, but it's not just as easy as learning to meditate, and there it is. You know, it takes time to develop that intuitive side, and it takes understanding. So it's not a quick thing.

• 1:14:16Speaker 02

  But I had a lot of students who had trouble with meditation. And some of them, it wasn't anything attitudinal, it was just, they're like ADD, sitting still and having a quiet mind is pretty much impossible when you have a central nervous system that's jumping here and jumping there. And they'll just let everything go, and they can't do that. And I also had a lot of very left-brain, logic-process types who just couldn't let go of that control. That anything that would happen on the intuitive side, that logical side would come in and crash it, when they analyze it, judge it right away, which would kill it, of course,

• 1:14:58Speaker 02

  because now you're in that logical side and the logical side and the intuitive side don't work together. Now, you can teach them to work together, but most people, they don't. You can learn to be extremely right-brained, extremely intuitive, and extremely logical, both. You can be extreme in both cases, but that's only after a lot of years of practice do you get there. But there is another way for people who have trouble meditating, whether it's an overactive intellect, or whether it's just some central nervous system twitch that they can't let go of, and that is through your imagination. It's an alternate path.

• 1:15:42Speaker 02

  And once I realized that, I pointed to the right, make tools for those people. Because that whole bunch of people who had been hanging out in my circles for years, and they still never had that out of body, was never successful at the paranormal things. So I developed this thing I called Tom's Park, which uses imagination to get to the same place. And the way you use that is you have to imagine something with enough information to basically consume your mind. So you imagine where you are, you're walking on a beach, but you're not just at a beach.

• 1:16:24Speaker 02

  You hear the surf, you see the surf going in and out, you hear the birds, you know, you hear, you feel the sand between, you can smell the saltwater. So you, you smell, you taste, you hear, you see, you know, you touch. All of those things have to be going in detail. And if you can get, you practice, it takes practice to get that, and you get that detail going, then start off on a story. What do you find on that beach? You know, who else do you run into? And eventually, you stop playing the parts of all the characters like you do in a daydream, and the thing just takes on a life of its own. The people you meet, the things they say are not things that are even in your mind.

• 1:17:06Speaker 02

  And the story goes, what happens is the larger conscious system takes that story you've made and just continues it, and then takes you into a space where you've got something to learn. So it's another way to get out of body, if you will, to get into the non-physical space. You can do it through your imagination. And meditation usually is a beginner's tool. I know that's heresy to a lot of meditators, but it's, it's mostly a beginner's tool. After you learn well enough, you can do that meditation in seconds. You don't have to sit down and quiet your mind and say your mantra and do all kind of stuff. You're just, you're there.

• 1:17:52Speaker 02

  So you kind of stop the process and get there very quickly eventually. And from my own experience, I'd say that, you know, how often do you meditate? They ask me and said, well, I really don't meditate anymore. On the other hand, an equivalent answer is I meditate all the time. I'm always in a meditation state. So they're both true, equally true. You can just see it from either side. I'm a constant meditation state. And to let the sense data go, I can do that in fractions of a second. So it's just a matter of you get so familiar with that intuitive state and that space that you can just go there very easily.

• 1:18:33Speaker 02

  And life becomes different in the sense that now you have a much bigger decision space. Most people have a decision space that combines of their memory and the stuff they get from their senses, that it's interacting. So there's certain choices they have based on that. Once you live equally in an intuitive space or equally able to get around in an intuitive space and an intellectual space, you find that you spend most of your time in the intuitive space because that's a richer, has more information and it's a richer space than the physical space.

• 1:19:15Speaker 02

  So you live, say, seventy-five, depends on the situation, seventy-five, sometimes eighty, ninety, sometimes only fifty, sometimes forty, but most of the time you exist in a state that is more intuitive than it is logical. And then you can pop into the logical state whenever you need to. And I have found that the two sides that seem to be incompatible, that intuitive state and that logical state, intellectual state, actually become good friends and work well with each other. And the intuitive side will get some information and pass it over to the intellectual side to do some assessment on it. You know, do some analysis on it.

• 1:19:56Speaker 02

  And then that, that, uh, that side that's intellectual will pass over stuff because it needs more information. It doesn't have enough information to do a logical problem. And then the intuitive side goes up and gets the information, passes it over to the intellectual side. So then you become not left brain or right brain, but whole brain. And all of that works together. And you just live in a larger reality than most people. You have a bigger, the size of your reality is measured by the size of your decision space. So now you meet somebody and you know some things about them right away. Within 10 or 20 seconds, you got a sense of that person and who they are and what they are and what's inside and why they do what they do and all the rest of it, which

• 1:20:39Speaker 02

  makes it easier for you to be useful and to be helpful with those people. So you live in a space that is intuitive, but you're also rational and logical at the same time. So that's really where you're going to, you know, if you're looking for end states, you know, that's really where you're going to, to that sort of a thing. But that takes a long time to do that. And it takes a lot of effort because there, you have three sources of information that come to you. One's the larger conscious system, sends you a data stream. Any, all consciousness is netted. So you can communicate with any other consciousness, including your dogs and your cats and your horse and, and the bumblebees.

• 1:21:24Speaker 02

  You can communicate with anything that's conscious. And consciousness can send messages back and forth that way. Telepathy is a real thing.

• 1:21:33André Duqum?

  Yeah, we just had Kai Dickens with the telepathy tapes on here last week. The timing of his conversations, right?

• 1:21:38Speaker 02

  Well, the reason that those autistic children seem to be good at that is because their intellectual side was damaged. Their intellectual side doesn't work. So if you've got these two sides, an intellectual side and two side, an intellectual side doesn't work, what do you do? You start developing your intuitive side. And can you hear what your mother's thinking? Of course you can. Consciousness are all netted. Of course, you can hear that. So that's the first. You said there's three. Yes, that's the first is the larger conscious system. The second is conscious to consciousness. Somebody can be sending you a message. Somebody can be putting thoughts into your, into your mind. Okay, yes, oh, thoughts into your mind.

• 1:22:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, we can talk about that later, but they can give you ideas and feelings and suggestions and things. And the third is that you're a piece of conscious and you can create virtual realities yourself. You can create information. So those three things, it's yourself, it's somebody else with the consciousness or some of the thing with the consciousness, or it's a larger conscious system. And unfortunately, those three streams don't come with tags. You never know where it's coming from. So you, you have to be skeptical of everything. Now, even with experience, you'll never know precisely where it's coming from, but with experience, you'll, you'll get, oh, that's an 80, that's a 90, oh, that's a 99.99.

• 1:23:04Speaker 02

  I'm real familiar with that one, you know? So you get to where you can label those and you get even familiar with the stuff that you create yourself. But one has to always be skeptical. You never know the source of what you get and you never know exactly why you're getting it. Okay? It's a, it's something you get from the larger conscious system, something you've asked for, but is that really because that's true? Or you're getting this because that's information you need to know to grow and to learn? So you can't say, oh, there's a fact. You can just say, oh, there's something. I wonder what that means and how it's going to affect me. So the, the question is not, is that real?

• 1:23:48Speaker 02

  The question is, is that helpful? So you get information from lots of sources and this idea about reality is just a bad idea. Information is real. That's the only consciousness is real. Consciousness is the information system. So, information is real. And that's the only thing that's real. Everything else is a virtual reality. When you die, you end up in another virtual reality. When you dream, you're in another virtual reality. When you daydream, you're in another virtual reality. The daydreams, you start by creating them yourself. You know, the outer body is another virtual reality.

• 1:24:25André Duqum?

  Yeah, I think it's important to think about how these are useful terms, but also they fall short in many ways. You know, it's helpful to conceptualize reality as a virtual system or as a computer that's being rendered. And I think for some people throughout culture, could maybe refer back to the movie The Matrix. And there's a lot of overlap here. You kind of remind me of The Architect. I don't know, you've probably heard that before.

• 1:24:51Speaker 02

  I've heard that before, yeah.

• 1:24:53André Duqum?

  But, you know, when the oracle especially is talking with Neo and the reason we're here is to understand the why behind the decisions that we're making and how information that's coming through these three different streams are ultimately, we're here to learn the reason of, if something inherently doesn't appear to be reducing entropy in a given decision, we will then learn why that was the case and then go on to evolve from that decision.

• 1:25:24Speaker 02

  You're absolutely right, all of those things. That's why I started off saying these are just metaphors. Larger conscious system is a metaphor for source. I U O C, individual consciousness, is just a metaphor for that function that has to happen. So, I went through the logical steps that had to be in this model. I gave them names, but it's just a model. It's a way of thinking about it. It's a way that helps you put, what? Structure to reality. And that's all it is. You know, it's no more than a way of looking at things that makes better sense. And, you know, people get hung up on, you know, "Well, what does that I U O C do?"

• 1:26:09Speaker 02

  You know, "When it's got free will awareness unit out there, then what is it doing?" He's just sitting there, "Is it communicating?" And I say, "Yeah, you're pushing the metaphor too far." It's just there for a function of the accumulator for the experiences that the free will units have. That's all. That's its function. Don't add more to it. I just have the functions of the essential. Functions of consciousness. And you start to complicate it with asking questions that really aren't relevant. Doesn't matter what it does all day. These are the, these are the key ideas. And these are just ways of sorting it. Words that help people understand. I use the computer metaphors because they're more understandable today.

• 1:26:54Speaker 02

  You know, if you use the metaphors that the Buddha used, well, that's goes back to poetry. You have to understand, you have to be able to understand, you have to know what he knows in order to understand what he says, which is a chicken and egg problem. So anyhow, yeah, I just wanted to make a comment. This is not, these are the facts. There is this thing out there and it has these speech parts. These are all, it's a, it's a way of looking at things that makes better sense. That's all.

• 1:27:21André Duqum?

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• 1:28:05André Duqum?

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• 1:28:27André Duqum?

  It's helpful to see the inherent limits of our logic and what it has the unique capacity to do, because a lot of us who, again, live in this culture where the intellect is premier source of intelligence, we want, and we crave that feeling of satiation to understand how things connect. And I love that part of me. I know you strongly have that part of you as well. But then again, it gets to that point where it's important to surrender knowing to the deeper intuitive source that is different and beyond what we can logically empirically deduce.

• 1:29:02Speaker 02

  Right. It starts from what I was saying about we don't have the vocabulary to describe abstract things. We don't have a vocabulary, the words, or even the thoughts to describe consciousness. What is it? Where is it? Well, it's nowhere. It doesn't have any extent. There isn't distance there. Well, how does it work? How does it pass information around? You're looking for details that really aren't important. You just have to understand its function and how it works and let the rest go. Because what you're doing is trying to take that abstraction and turn it into something concrete. And that's wrong. This virtual reality is what we see as concrete. And we want it to be like this virtual reality with piece

• 1:29:45Speaker 02

  parts that we can assemble and take them apart and lay them out on a bench so we can see how all the details work. But it's not like that at all. We're talking about a thing that's alive and conscious and aware. And it doesn't have an extent. It doesn't have to pass data around. It just knows. Well, everything has to pass data around. Well, only if it has extent. The extent doesn't have to be there. It's just consciousness. Stop trying to look at all its piece parts and try to understand what it is and how you relate to it and it relates to you. That's what's important. One of the key points that people have to understand as they're trying to wrap their heads around this is that

• 1:30:29Speaker 02

  This isn't something that you can just get intellectually. If it's not your experience, it can't be your truth. So you may read about it and you may think, oh, that sounds true. And I can see how all that works. But if it's not your truth, if you haven't experienced it, it's somebody else's truth. It's the truth of the guy who wrote the book, but it's not your truth. You have to experience it and you are limited by your experience. If you get things, if data comes to you and it's outside of your experience, you don't know how to interpret it. Now you can make up a story about it and say, oh, well, it's like this and like this. But that's just the story you make up. And then you can believe the story. And that's what most people do. They make up stories and then they believe them.

• 1:31:14Speaker 02

  But understanding that if it's not your, if it's not your experience, then it's not going to help you grow up. It's the difference between acting kind and being kind. You can read all about kindness and you can, you can just be as kind as you can be to everybody you see. But if it's all coming out of your intellect, because that's the way you think you should be, you don't gain, you're not leveling up. You have to be kind, not that kind.

• 1:31:49André Duqum?

  Yeah, it really takes a matured, a matured person to explore things and, and receive information that is outside of your experience without accepting or rejecting it, but taking it as a data point and experimenting with it and seeing if it's valid and true. And then it can be your own theory of everything and not just somebody on a podcast you heard once.

• 1:32:12Speaker 02

  Exactly. I say that over and over in my book, you know, that my big toe should just be a starting point for your big toe. You know, if it's not your experience, it's not your truth. And the only way to proceed is with an open mind and a very skeptical mind. Be skeptical of everything and everybody. And the person you have to be most skeptical about is yourself, because we are really good at convincing ourselves that we are pretty wonderful and have all the right ideas. So skepticism is an absolutely necessary part of this path.

• 1:32:49André Duqum?

  But it really helps crack at the, our notions of how solid and concrete.

• 1:32:56André Duqum?

  Our, this apparent universe is when you explore and you differentiate PMR and NPMR, physical matter, reality and non-physical matter, reality. And you start to walk people through, of course, there is a non-physical world. The vast majority of the cosmos is made up of empty space. People are watching this conversation right now by virtue of invisible frequencies that are enabling their device to be able to download and play and watch wherever they are. And, and so it doesn't seem like that big of a stretch to be exploring and these other topics are on more paranormal activities and remote viewing.

• 1:33:40André Duqum?

  And I think it's been so fascinating to talk with Kai last week on the telepathy tapes and with you, because it seems like right now there's a cultural shift in our deepening of understanding what consciousness is and the repeatability of these different studies within individuals. And so what is the gamut of these non-physical experiences that you've had that invite reflections around the afterlife, remote viewing, the paranormal? Just talk us, talk us through a little bit of those experiences.

• 1:34:13Speaker 02

  They are all related. They're not independent. They're all kind of related and the active ingredient is always intent that we can build up all sorts of tools that help us focus that intent. A lot of those tools, we tend to, we tend to invent tools, create tools, and then we believe in them and they become, they become not just tools, but they become, you know, solid things that are there. For instance, things like chakras. Now, I'm going to upset a whole lot of people, but chakras are not fundamental. They're tools that we create. It helps us understand, it breaks the, it breaks the things we want to understand on

• 1:34:57Speaker 02

  it to piece parts. And by Relating those piece parts to the body, it makes it more concrete, not so abstract. When we, and we need those tools to help explain. You have to take that abstraction, put it into more concrete terms so that people can use their language and their experience to understand what's going on. So they're essential.

• 1:35:24André Duqum?

  I think it's important to differentiate, though, what's perceived as a tool versus what is a reality from the perspective of the physical. And that includes the more subtle realms of our energetic body and makeup and whatnot. And so I don't fully understand your distinction there.

• 1:35:40Speaker 02

  Okay. Let's talk about healing. Okay, we hear the word lightworkers. Well, that is people who have the metaphor that what is ill in a person, what is wrong, poor health, is dark. And the darker it is, the worse it is. So if it's really black, black, then it's maybe a deadly cancerous tumor. If it's just light gray, then maybe it's the flu. If it's just very little bit of gray, it's probably just an irritation or something. So they have that as a, as a kind of an output format of the data that they get from getting into the database and getting information about that person's health.

• 1:36:25Speaker 02

  Now, they'll take a bar of light, in Monroe's vocabulary, that's the energy bar tool. But they will put that white energy on that till it burns that black away, and that helps them heal. Well, all of that is just tools. It doesn't exist. Light doesn't really exist. It's the mind, the intention of the mind is what heals. But people need tools to use that intention. If you just said, well, it's just your intent that does it, okay, heal. You're done. You're healed. Well, that wouldn't work. People wouldn't do that because they couldn't get the oomph. They couldn't put the energy in it because that's so unbelievable that that could possibly work.

• 1:37:09Speaker 02

  People wouldn't feel like they were doing anything. People have the sense out of being in this seemingly physical reality that you can't change something without doing something.

• 1:37:20Speaker 02

  You can't just do it in your mind. You have to do something. So you need your energy bar tool to burn away the black stuff. And that's a tool. Now, a teaching tool is like the chakras, a teaching tool. We have a lot of teaching tools that we use. It helps break things up into, into parts, give those parts certain attributes, and it helps people understand in a more concrete way. Now, sure, I can look at you and I can see chakras. Well, doesn't that mean they're real? No, it's just information. I can get the data with that output. You see, let's say, um, look at the lead better. Man visible, invisible.

• 1:38:04Speaker 02

  He wrote a little book and he shows all of these auras around people and he tells you what it means. The yellow up around the head, that's intelligence. And the purple there, that's spirituality. And that big red zigzaggy thing going around, that's anger. Well, that's not real. That was his interpretation. And everybody reads the book. So everybody sees about the same things because that becomes your output format for looking at auras. If you want to, you can redefine that. And you can say, I want a blue zigzag line to be anger. And I want red to be, I don't know, something else. I want red to be health. And then when you get that data, you'll get it in the format that you specify. And you can look at a chart and you can say,

• 1:38:49Speaker 02

  well, here's health and here's time. I'd like to see this person's health from now till 10 years from now. And because there's a lot of probability of the way it might go, I want to see, uh, uh, three sigma error bars around, around that line of probable health. Well, you can get that. The system will give you anything you like, even with statistical analysis. You just have to specify what your format is that you want, and it'll give it to you in that format. So when you're talking about subtle bodies and those things, this, you know, even the outer body, right? Just the idea, you're not inside your body.

• 1:39:29Speaker 02

  You don't have a spirit that lives in your body and comes out through your head and flies off. That's not the way. You're a piece of consciousness. You're already out of your body. Your body is an avatar. And it doesn't have a heart or a brain or anything. It's just eye candy. All that ever gets rendered is just what you can see. Everything inside doesn't get rendered. There doesn't have to render oxygen in this room. We just keep going as if there were oxygen in the room. It's rendering our bodies. The only time it'll render oxygen in a room if you got a test for oxygen. And then it'll render what you need for that test. If you cut somebody's head open, it'll render a brain. And if you cut the brain open, it'll render all the neurology in there. But otherwise, it doesn't render any of that.

• 1:40:13Speaker 02

  So you don't have a spirit that lives in your body. And if you're doing out of body, like I did, you know, I did out of bodies. And I thought the same thing. Well, I'm going to come out of the body. I'm obviously going to be in my bedroom. I'm going to turn around and look at my body. And that's exactly what I did. I turned around and there's my body laying in the bed. Sure enough. But then I realized, you don't have to do that. You can become out of body and you never sit in your bedroom. It's not there. You're just wherever it is you want to be. In whatever reality frame you want to be in, and it's instantaneous. There's no travel. There's no body. So your consciousness, the body is just computed.

• 1:40:56Speaker 02

  It's not a real thing anymore, and your elf is a real thing. Okay, so this idea that you have a body, and then you have a subtle body. And then you have the spiritual body, and all these things are concentric with each other. You get that. Well, that was a model back in the 1800s when Madame Blasky and the theosophists were turning over new ideas and publishing them.

• 1:41:20Speaker 02

  And it came from this idea that the spirit lives inside the body. You know, that's why we put our hand over our mouth when we yawn because you keep evil spirits from going into your mouth. That's where that comes from. So we had those kinds of beliefs. Back in the day when Fox and Muldoon and so on were writing their books about out of body, there was always cords. A silver cord was attached. And if you cut that cord, ah, the body would die because it would lose its spirit. And a spirit would die because it got connected from its body and they'd fall over dead. And that isn't the case. When Bob Monroe did all this out of body, he didn't have any silver cord. That was a belief.

• 1:42:01Speaker 02

  So we make up a story that explains what we've experienced. So they've, they had a belief about being tethered to the body. So they got a silver cord that represented that belief. Remember you interpret the data and you interpret it based on what you know and what you believe and what your fears are. So these things don't actually exist. You don't have an etheric body and a what else, whatever, you know, here's your emotional body. Now, sure, I see those things. If I want to look at your emotional body, I can just call up and say, you know, what's this emotional information look like? And there it is. And I can make a, I can make it whatever colors I want. As long as I'm consistent, it'll do that.

• 1:42:46Speaker 02

  So those, the data is there, but that you interpret it as a egg of light around a human being, that's a belief. You can look at a picture, a photograph of somebody. You can look at their emotional body too. And all the rest of their auras, you can look at a spiritual body and a health body. And all those things are just information that you get because you have an intention to get them. And you have some kind of intention of the format you want them in. And it may be just what everybody else sees, or you may make up your own. So that's, that's what I'm saying. There is no real etheric body and subtle body and.

• 1:43:25André Duqum?

  Well, I completely hear you. I think the distinction between what is absolute reality and relative reality is important. These ideas of like the inner sciences precede far beyond Blavatsky or, you know, beliefs around what, like there is a rule set, there is, there is.

• 1:43:40Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:43:42André Duqum?

  There is a distinction between what is real and what is true. From the perspective of the absolute, there is only consciousness. But from the perspective of the relative human experience, we do have these more subtle aspects of ourselves. Like you said, you could tune into, you can perceive these things.

• 1:43:59Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 1:44:00André Duqum?

  But where I think it gets a little bit tricky in articulating this stuff is sometimes it comes across as if this is all, like, everything that we perceive is an illusion. And from an aspect, it is, but it is also the illusion that consciousness is playing for the purpose of lowering entropy and evolving and all of these things. And so I'm just curious, where do you see this perspective going too far? And how it bypasses the game that we're here to play essentially? And the human experience? Because it can quickly go into the dangerous territory of completely denying our own humanity when we are here to have a human experience.

• 1:44:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, I don't, I think it elucidates all of that. It makes the human experience more valuable. It helps you understand. The thing is that people have experiences. And the first thing, they have to take that experience and they get the data, they get a data stream. That's the experience. They interpret that data. And that interpretation is in terms of their beliefs. So if you see, if you think there has to be a connection between the body and spirit, then you'll see a silver cord or some other kind of connection, because that's part of your belief. So you will see the data that way. You'll introduce that.

• 1:45:22Speaker 02

  So by understanding that people really have no other choice but to take their experience and describe it in the best terms they can. Okay, to make it rational, so they can talk about it, so they can interact with it. So we do that. We say, well, they have this body, and then there's the subtle etheric body outside of that. And then there's the, you know, the body with the emotions outside of that. And you have the auras and the colors and all these things. Well, that's a metaphor. It's a metaphor for. The information, you're getting information about that health body, that etheric body, you're getting all the information about that.

• 1:46:05Speaker 02

  And you see it in terms of light around a person. And it's easy enough to see that way. So you do, and you make up a model. You make up an explanation, something that makes it fit more concrete, a way you can explain it, the way you can show it, the way you can tell it to other people. Otherwise, everybody'd be saying, "Well, I experienced something, but I don't know what it is." That's not helpful. So it's necessary that we use these tools. We make up tools. But we have to understand, they're not fundamental. They're just helpful tools that helps us understand our experience. Because otherwise, you can get trapped by knowing,

• 1:46:49Speaker 02

  you know, by thinking, "This tool, this is the truth." Now, somebody else, okay, you go to the Tibetan Buddhists, and they don't have chakras. You go to the, you know, Aborigines in Australia, and they don't have chakras. What's the matter? They're not as good as the Buddhists? They don't see things as well? No, the chakras is something that is a tool, that we help explain things. Otherwise, we say, "Oh, well, they're wrong, because they don't have this." And pretty soon, it's a right and wrong, rather than, they have different tools. They see things in a different way. It's not that they're wrong and you're right, because you see auras.

• 1:47:32Speaker 02

  An aura is a way that you are interpreting the data. You can interpret in terms of light. And that's a good way. And you can see the chakras, and you can interpret that in terms of these things and how they affect your life. And you can learn from them. You can grow from them. The tool, I'm not saying these tools are irrelevant. They're not. They're very important. We have experiences. We make up a story, the best story we can think of, and then...

• 1:48:03Speaker 02

  We tend to believe it. And that story then becomes fact when really it's just a good story that helps people understand what's going on. So you don't, you're not going to go into some kind of negative space with that. In fact, it just opens things up. So when the, when the Zen Buddhists don't see chakras, it's not a matter of judgment if they're just haven't gotten there yet. You know, Buddha's way ahead of them. You know, it's that that's not tools they use. They have their own tools. They have a totally different toolset to get there. And that's why you can look at all of the various practices, all of the various interpretations,

• 1:48:47Speaker 02

  and you can understand all of them and see the value in all of them.

• 1:48:51Speaker 04

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• 1:49:21Speaker 01

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• 1:49:49André Duqum?

  Hey guys, a bit of a different Cher. For those that don't know, music has always been a big part of my life. What started with picking up a guitar when I was eight has evolved over time into a deep love for exploring the power of sound, getting into recording more music myself, and discovering various instruments that feel like portals into another world. There are some instruments that resonate in such a way that are conducive to meditative states, both in listening and playing, one of which I found is the handpan, which, if you don't know, this flying saucer UFO-looking thing is made of sheet steel, which is derived of iron, and by forging these little dimples and domes throughout, you can build out

• 1:50:33André Duqum?

  musical scales, which are amazing to play. This one in specific, an eamara, is by this company, based out of the Netherlands, called Ayasa. When I first found out about them, I was playing with Malte Martin, who came over, we were hanging out, he's an incredible musician, if you haven't heard his stuff, and he recommended Ayasa as the place to get the highest quality instruments. So thankfully, when I reached out, they were excited to collaborate, and that's exactly what this is. For anyone interested in exploring the world of handpans, from a company with integrity that ships to customers all over the world, I highly recommend them, and you can check them out at ayasainstruments.com. The link in description, as always.

• 1:51:18André Duqum?

  Back to the show. What does your theory say about what the Eastern contemplative practices would describe in their use of the story of mukti, enlightenment, the dissolution of the self, when one realizes and wakes up to the most fundamental aspect in nature of themself? From the lens of the language that you use, what is that moment? How do you describe that?

• 1:51:42Speaker 02

  Oh, it's a moment that everyone can have. It takes a while, I guess, to get there, but the way I describe that is you become one with a larger conscious system. You see reality through its eyes. You see it as it sees it. And when you make that connection, that when you get there, then you lose your own identity. You're no longer Tom.

• 1:52:10Speaker 02

  You're no longer even a human being or experiencing. You're just a part of everything. You're a piece of every blade of grass and every leaf on every tree. You are all of it and you have no sense of self whatsoever. You're not independent. You're just a piece of all that is. You're a piece of reality and you feel that as a field of love, compassion, connection. It's not that you're just seeing all this stuff. You're a piece of it. You're all and there's nothing in your feeling space other than love. Okay, so you have that experience and that's what samadhi or whatever.

• 1:52:52Speaker 02

  When you see these guys in there like this and they got a big grin on their face because they're in bliss. That's what they are. They're in that space and that's a space that you can learn to go to and really kind of whenever you want. But to me, I hate to use the word, but it's like a sacred space that I wouldn't abuse. I wouldn't go there every day. It's, it's, that would almost trivialize it to where it wouldn't be such a big deal. It is an immense big deal. It'll change your life. A lot of the people that have near-death experiences, they get that experience. They're given that experience. It's given to them and changes their life entirely.

• 1:53:34Speaker 02

  They suddenly see the larger picture and it's not at all what they thought. So that is a very real experience. It's, it's really not all that hard to attain. You don't have to meditate for dozens of years. I had a lot of the students that are first time. They don't know much about meditation at all, but they can get there if you give them a little idea about how and the path and what it is. So it's not an impossible thing that yogis who are yogis for 50 years can attain this and you can't. You can. You just have to be able to let go of the physical. You have to be able to not have the fear, not have the ego

• 1:54:19Speaker 02

  and not have the beliefs so that you can just open your mind to being. And if you can get in that state, then you can get there. It is blissful if you don't want to come back.

• 1:54:33Speaker 02

  You're there and it's just awesome. But you know, it's time to come back or you'll be put back if you don't know that. And then you let it go. And times that you're feeling particularly

• 1:54:47Speaker 02

  out of energy or whatever is a good time to go do that because it will renew you. It will make you smile, even if everything's falling apart in your life. It'll, it'll be a moment of bliss and happiness and contentment. And you feel like you're one with everybody and everything. So that's a real, that's a real experience. And it's an experience that I would wish everybody would have because it changes you when you have that experience. But you are basically

• 1:55:18Speaker 02

  one with the larger consciousness system, if you will. Now you're at the source. That's, that's the way source sees things. It is everything. We are all one, even the blades of grass, all come from the same source. It's all created in consciousness.

• 1:55:35André Duqum?

  In many ways, it could be seen that the most important thing that happens to us is to experience and taste that reality firsthand because it transforms us on contact. And I'm curious, because I've heard you elaborate on sort of your key discoveries doing this work for over a few, few decades. One of which was let understanding and value flow to you as a result of fixing yourself. If you chase it with your intellect, you are unlikely to find it. And so it is also, I mean, seen through many ways, the Taoist lens of by creating space between us and that which we identify, we get to hang out with the larger consciousness system.

• 1:56:18André Duqum?

  And therefore there is less force and control over reality. And like you spoke to, what is needed in our, in our life appears for us. And we're at flow with what this life is, is, is meant to be. And so I'm just curious for you to speak to that a little bit and your experience of, of how that feels like and, and what becomes available to you as you start to actually get into that flow.

• 1:56:45Speaker 02

  Well,

• 1:56:47Speaker 02

  I've been working at this since, I don't know, I guess.

• 1:56:54Speaker 02

  Well, I was working at it when I was six and seven years old. You know, I started my adventures then, and then I let go of it and I came back to it in the middle twenties. And I've been engaged in discovery ever since. You never stop discovering. Discovery is, is what you do. It's not that, oh, I, I know all this stuff, now I'm done. You know, you're never done. There's always more things to learn. But I was somewhere in my late twenties or early thirties when I realized that trying hard to make things come out the way I wanted was always making them come out less than optimal.

• 1:57:37Speaker 02

  Because I didn't really understand all the connections and all the things that were going on and all the whys of all of the things, that it was really above my, my awareness. A lot of things that were happening and the reasons that they were happening. So when I tried to order it, oh, this is the way things should be. And it didn't turn out the beautiful story that I had expected it to turn out. And then I realized that if you don't try to make it come out into a beautiful story, it'll come out into a story that's more beautiful than you could have imagined if you just let it be and don't try to manipulate it or control it. And that was like a wow, that's very, you know, interesting.

• 1:58:22Speaker 02

  I mean, I'm a, I'm a physicist, you know, I, I take all my knowledge and, and I play with it. I see if it's real, I test it, but then it becomes fact for me. And that was a big step in this process where I realized that stop trying to make the world according to you, you know, your vision of what it should be. Let the world be and it will self-optimize without you meddling with it. And if you meddle with it, all you're doing is getting in the way of that self-optimization and it just screws things up. So at that point, I was, I had a big change in my life that I stopped being the smart guy that knew all the right answers and knew what people should be doing and thinking.

• 1:59:07Speaker 02

  And I became a lot more humble with the idea that let them think and do whatever comes to them, and I just deal with it in a positive way. And that will optimize things for everybody. So that was a big lesson, and that was probably late twenties, early thirties that I got there. So my lessons came in bits and pieces over. Now, I'm eighty years old now, so I've been doing this for, since I was in the middle twenties. Okay, so I got a lot of hours logged. I got a lot of time. And during that time, I probably spent close to twenty hours a week working with it. Not just an occasional thing that, you know, I meditated every once in a while for a few years. I worked on it.

• 1:59:52Speaker 02

  I want to understand it. That's how I'm made. That's why I'm a physicist. I want to understand things. And I don't want to just create beliefs because that seems like a good answer. I need to really test it and see if that's the way it is. So you start off with the idea that you don't know anything. Throw it all away. You know, you get rid of all your beliefs, but you don't really know anything. And the world, the existence is a, is something to experience. And as you experience it, it will, you will see connections. You will see what affects what.

• 2:00:37Speaker 02

  And eventually you will test it and then you'll, you know, that then becomes a fact for you. It's something that you've done. So I started with, with things like that, understanding that you have to just let life be, you have to let people be. You know, people get upset and they say, oh, those terrible people, they're awful, you know, they're ruining life and, you know, we need to change. It's not we need to change, they need to change is the way people look at it and they get upset at other people.

• 2:01:07Speaker 02

  And that's just counterproductive. That isn't going to help. Lecturing somebody about why they're wrong is never going to help them to see how to be right. Because whenever you push on people, they push back. All you do is encourage them to go deeper into the dysfunction that they have. So you need to just let people be and realize that everybody is doing the best they can with what they've got. And what they've got is fear and beliefs and a lack of understanding and a lack of experience, but they're doing the best they can with it. So you have to let them be and give them a space where they can stretch out, be on their comfort zone. Give them a space that they can grow into, which basically means you just be kind and

• 2:01:52Speaker 02

  nice to them and not be dogmatic and not be quarrelsome and just let them be who they are. And, you know, love them, care for them, be connected with them, try to be helpful to them, even if they have ideas that are opposite to yours. That will then give them space to grow. Lecturing them and telling them how they're wrong makes them even worse. So you kind of get this idea that you're in this world to experience, to connect, to understand, and that you, in a process of understanding, you say, "Well, here's the best model I can come up with." All right, now, good, use that model, test that model. But realize it's a model.

• 2:02:35Speaker 02

  Realize that that's not necessarily a fact. Now, it may be a fact one day, but you don't know that yet. So you always have to be skeptical of yourself, of what you know and what it means. So I, when I was making my model, the underlying thing here was to not put anything in it that wasn't absolutely logically necessary for the whole model to work. So when I get asked the question, "Well, what does the IUOC do all day while the Free Will Awareness Unit works?" Not an important question. I don't, you know, it's not like, it has to be doing something, doesn't it? No, it doesn't. It's just a function of consciousness.

• 2:03:20Speaker 02

  So we understand the function. We don't make things up. Well, let's see, what could it be doing? Oh, it could be doing this and that. Well, that's me making things up about what it could be doing. I don't see an important function that it has to do for the whole system to be a good logical system. And if I don't see that it has to do something, then I leave it alone. I could dream up 10 things that it could be doing, but I don't put those in my model. I only put the things in there that are essential for the logical flow to go through. And I don't say that this model is the only model. There's lots of models out there. Models are things that help people understand things. Come up with your own town. That's better than just doing mine, you know?

• 2:04:05Speaker 02

  Mine is, my conclusions, my truth, my experience, and it can't be your truth and your experience. You need to come up with your own thing. So that people come up with their models. Okay, I go out of body, I'm a spirit, and I live inside the body. And I come up out of my head and I need to stay attached to the body, so I need a silver cord. All right, there's nothing wrong with that. I don't say, you know, that's wrong. It's just the way they interpret their information. Your interpretation has to be based on your experience, your beliefs, and your ego. You can't get away from that. That's you. It's who you are. But don't make it fact, just make it my model. Okay, so that's kind of the way I see things.

• 2:04:48Speaker 02

  So yes, I would say, you know, things like chakras, there are thousands of people that use them. It's a very good tool. It's a good way to break out the information. It's a good learning tool, but it doesn't make it fundamental.

• 2:05:00André Duqum?

  What would you say, I'm curious, in the past few years, is there another pre, is there another dominant key discovery that you've stumbled upon? Whether it's in your theory, whether it's just through living life? What's, what's an insight that has transformed your life most that we haven't discussed yet?

• 2:05:20Speaker 02

  I think the insight that affects everybody's life is the realization of

• 2:05:26Speaker 02

  Of, you know, what is real? What is reality? And what is our part in it? In other words, what's your, you know, what are you doing here? What are you, what are you here for? What's the point of your existence? And when you understand that, if that's an important thing for you to know, then your picture will get bigger and bigger as you hone in on that. Now, different people will come to different metaphors. They'll describe that in different ways. That's fine. You don't have to use my metaphors. My metaphors are really great for people in computer science because they, they get the metaphors and what they mean. For people that are not into their modern computer terms, they find it kind of prickly and cold

• 2:06:10Speaker 02

  because it's, what do you mean? It's an information system. Oh, that's cold and prickly. Because that's, you know, they don't see that in warm tones. I see that as a good logical model and I don't need to have the, you know, kind of the feel-good thing about it. It makes sense to me. So, other models are good. Have your own big toe. But the things that I learned was that, you know, it makes sense to me that we evolve, consciousness evolves by learning its entropy. Low entropy is love. Our whole purpose is to grow, to not be loving, but to become love. Love is the,

• 2:06:55Speaker 02

  it's, it's the, what? It's the, the attitude, the mind, it's the existence of a low entropy consciousness. That's what defines love, a low entropy consciousness because there's no ego. There's no beliefs. There's just love and caring. And that's where we're headed. And when you understand that, it gives you a much bigger picture. And you understand that, that what is your reality?

• 2:07:25Speaker 02

  It's just your interpretation of the data you get. Everybody has their own reality. And their reality is as real for them as your reality is for you. And you need to have respect for that reality, that they have whatever form it takes. So you don't judge others. You don't judge, oh, they're, they're using the wrong tools. There are no right or wrong tools. The right tools are the tools that work for you. Those are the, those are the right tools. And you'll find as you grow up and understand more, your tools change. You let go of these tools because they're not really useful that much anymore. And you pick new tools and you get your tools to be more and more effective and more and more,

• 2:08:09Speaker 02

  what can we say, efficient. You know, a lot of tools have a lot of process to them. First, you gotta light the incense and then you have to put it next to the statue of Buddha. And then you gotta play some nice serene music. And then you gotta sit down and cross your legs on a pillow. Then you have all this ritual, basically, that they go through. And they can't meditate if they don't go through the ritual. That's part of their meditation process. Well, that's a tool. It works. It works for them. They should use that. It works for them. But eventually, you get to where the meditation's easier and easier and you don't need that sort of thing. And then you make it more efficient and more efficient. And eventually, you get to the point that you don't need any tools at all. You're just, you're there. So that's, tools are good.

• 2:08:54Speaker 02

  And as we get things and we get an understanding, we think, well, how can I talk about this? How can I think about it? You have to put some kind of wrapper around it that allows your language to talk about it. So you make up a story that makes sense to you about this. And the problem is not that you make up a story. The problem is that you believe that the story has a fact because then that limits you. Now, the people that don't see it's your way are wrong. Whereas otherwise, they're not wrong, they're just different.

• 2:09:28Speaker 04

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• 2:09:58Speaker 05

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• 2:10:31André Duqum?

  You spoke, you hinted at this notion of where we are going as individuated units of consciousness moving towards love. When you zoom out and look at humanity on this planet as a whole, and what seems to be this acceleration of change and access to information, what do you see in the next five to 10 years in terms of what is being birthed and revealed through humanity at large?

• 2:10:57Speaker 02

  That's a really good question.

• 2:11:01Speaker 02

  You know, humans have been, well, let's put it this way. Homo sapiens been walking around on this planet for around 200,000 years. That's not a long time in the history of the universe, but for about 200,000 years, Homo sapiens have been here. You know, plus or minus 50,000 years, and all of that's guesswork. So don't take that too literally.

• 2:11:23Speaker 02

  The point of coming here and logging on to a human is just so that you get meaningful choices that you get to make, that are choices between love and fear. So you come here and do that, and if you look at the growth that we've had, growth, by that I mean spiritual growth, growth in becoming love and letting go of fear, you'll see that out of the 200,000 years, you've got probably about 190,000 of it, where there wasn't much change. So if this is the change, this is how much we get toward love on this axis, and this is time, then it's just been kind of low. This is not a graduate school, or a high school, or anything.

• 2:12:03Speaker 02

  This is daycare, daycare for budding individual units of conscious, and it's been low, and it's just been like this, but not much change. Well, now you go to about, I don't know, 1,000 years ago, and you see there were some upticks. There were some things that were created, like republics, where people got together and made choices together, and had looked out for each other, but they also fought and fought with their neighbors and other things. So you see it ticks up a little bit, and you look 500 years ago, look at the way the world was 500 years ago. Life was cheap. People in charge could just take somebody who was on the bottom and kill them just for fun if they wanted to, and there was no problem with that.

• 2:12:45Speaker 02

  And now, the last 500 years, oh, we've gone up, in just 500 years, we've done more growth than we did in that 190,000 years. Well, that's because the more you learn, the easier it is to learn more. Learning accelerates. So you learn, and you get to this point where it starts to go up, and that's what it does. It goes very, very slow, but it accelerates, and you're slowly accelerating, and you get to the knee of the curve, and then it goes really fast. We are right here on that knee of the curve, where it's starting to do this. That's called the knee of the curve in math, where before it really shoots up, but it's just starting to ramp up seriously. That's where we are now.

• 2:13:28Speaker 02

  We're on that knee of the curve, for the first time in the human, in the human history. We have the possibility of taking some big steps spiritually that we've never been able to do before. Before, let's say in the time of Buddha, you know, you could get up on a soapbox and maybe 50 or 60 people could hear you if had a loud voice and that was it. Well, that spreads very slowly and all the religions always end up in the margins. They're not mainstream. And where they're, when they, where they have been mainstream in history, they've usually also been kind of abusive. They, this is what everybody must do or else.

• 2:14:12Speaker 02

  So. Yes, we're gaining, we're in that point and the technology has, is speeding up. Change is speeding up and whenever you have change that happens quickly, you have turmoil, you have dysfunction. It causes a lot of problems and some people will suffer and have problems because of it, but it takes that. If you have change over a long period of time, it's usually smooth, easy. Look at the industrial revolution. We started that and it was abusive. You know, we'd go to China and grab people and throw them in boats to come over and work on the railroads.

• 2:14:56Speaker 02

  You know, we'd chain children to their machine to make sure they would come back in the morning. We did all kinds of abusive things, but eventually we got over all that and all that was illegal and it couldn't be done anymore. So it got better and better and better over time, but there was this, it took about 150 years, industrial revolutions, you know, about 150 years ago. And there's a lot of lessons we didn't learn. We did learn not to change children to machines and not the Shanghai, you know, people to work on the railroads, but we didn't learn to love, we didn't learn to care. Because we are a materialist culture. Materialism comes with an ethic. It's embedded in materialism.

• 2:15:37Speaker 02

  If you're a materialist, then the ethic is control, power, force. That world's out there just for you to take it and own it and do what you want with it. I'm gonna grab these resources and now I'll sell them to everybody else because they're mine. You know, that's materialism. The material world is just there to be exploited. And guess what? So is everybody else in the world. They're just there to be exploited, exploited. That's the idea of materialism. It's a material world. You export what you can, including other people. So with that as the basic ethic of materialism and materialism being a fundamental belief of our culture, then what you see in the news and you look out the window is control, power, force.

• 2:16:22Speaker 02

  And what represents control, power, force? Money. Money creates control, power, and force. So money is the thing. That's the big thing that matters here because control, power, force is our ethic. Well, if you want to change that, you have to change the ethic. As long as you have that ethic, you're going to get that result. So you change things and you make the ethic of caring, sharing, cooperation, all of those things leading toward becoming love. Now, the ethic there is to be helpful, to share, float everybody's boat. Everybody, you know, gets clean water and food to eat and a house to live in because we can afford it.

• 2:17:06Speaker 02

  We've got plenty of production that everybody could be doing all right. But we choose not to do that. We choose to hoard it and use it for ourselves because we're still very self-centered. We're not very grown up. So where are we going? Now we're in the information age. And you've heard people talk about things change on internet time. Well, the reason things move more quickly now is because it's all about information. Now, somebody can go up on the internet and a billion people can get that message in an hour.

• 2:17:46Speaker 02

  Or at least in a day, if they're asleep in some other part of the world where it's nighttime. You know, you can get to lots of people. Couldn't do that before. Soapbox just wasn't that good. With that kind of communication available, then the ability to share ideas, create ideas and have them spread is a capability that's put human race for the first time, ability to make big steps. If you can just show people that love really is the answer, and that really is why we're here. And besides that, hey, look, you get a better physics that explains physics better. Hey, look, you get an understanding about why you're unhappy. Because you've got fear, you've got ego, you've got beliefs. That's why you're unhappy.

• 2:18:31Speaker 02

  So it explains things to people. But it's based on an ethic of love and caring. And if you get people to buy into that, to say, yeah, that sounds better than what we've got. And right now, if you did a survey among the nine billion of us that are here, and said, do you think things are going really well, or do you think it sucks out there and we really need to do better? You know, what we've got now is dysfunctional. You probably get 80 or 90% would say it's dysfunctional. But I don't know how to change it. I don't know what to replace it with. Well, those ideas have to get in the mainstream.

• 2:19:16Speaker 02

  And I think they will. And that's going to be the biggest accelerator of change. And the only way that these ideas can get into the mainstream is that the high priests of Western culture agree with them, pick them up. The scientists. The scientists. Yes, the high priests are the people who tell everybody else what to believe. Because everybody else doesn't do their own homework, doesn't research, doesn't dig into things. But they depend on the high priests to tell them what to believe. Those are now the scientists. And I think the scientists are getting close to seeing that because it's just better physics. It solves their problems and doesn't give them any additional problems, doesn't raise any new issues. So it just solves problems. So it's better.

• 2:20:01Speaker 02

  I think the, you know, the truth is not fragile. It'll always float to the top, but sometimes it takes time because it's got to get past beliefs and it's a huge paradigm shift to get there, but eventually it'll get there. And when it does, and the scientists say, yes, this is correct. This is a virtual reality. Love is the point. Lowering entropy is the point. And lowering entropy is obvious to anybody who thinks about it is helping, creating, sharing. That's what is positive and grabbing and being selfish and using people for your own ends. That's very high entropy, creates a lot of negativity.

• 2:20:41Speaker 02

  So it's so obvious, and it's a better physics, that when the scientists agree that this is a better science, that will change a C state. Because then a lot of people, billions of people will see it and believe it. It'll be true. And all you need is 10% of those people to live it. And the other 90% will see how productive they are, how happy they are, how their lives are just, how lucky they are that everything falls at their feet just as they need. And even if they're poor, they're happy. Life is good. And the other 90% wants that, and they will come to it very quickly. So you don't have to convince everybody.

• 2:21:26Speaker 02

  You just have to convince enough of a minority that other people notice. If your minority is one ten thousandth of a percent, nobody notices. But if it's 10%, everybody notices. So I'd say that within three decades, we ought to be to the point, kind of rounding that, starting to move up. But that's a lot of change in a very short amount of time. And that's going to be rough. It's not going to be easy. It's going to be rough. The negative side, those people that favor chaos, they're going to give it their best shot to keep as much chaos as they can.

• 2:22:08Speaker 02

  And the positive side will just have to endure that and go on, because most of the population of the world's looking for something positive, something that will, you know, makes more sense to them than control, power, and force. That's a terrible way to run a society, to run a bunch of people, is with control, power, and force. And I don't think, it's a big argument to convince people of that. I mean, that's pretty obvious itself. So give them something else. And if the high priests say, yes, this is real, things will change very rapidly, and these ideas will go into the mainstream. When they get into the mainstream, give it another two decades,

• 2:22:49Speaker 02

  and there'll be a whole lot of people that will have affected their life in a positive way. I get hundreds of emails, you know, every month that tell me, "Every time you've changed my life, my relationships are better, you know, I'm more effective at work," and so on, because the ideas work. You know, you live your own life by most of these ideas, you know, that I talk about. You know, it's about love, it's about caring, it's not about grabbing and taking. And when you live that way, things work for you. Things work out. Stuff falls at your feet. Success comes looking for you, rather than you have to go looking for it. So that is my plan, and that's what I think is in the future. But it won't be a smooth ride,

• 2:23:35Speaker 02

  because it's a lot of change in a very short period of time. Three decades is a very short period of time for social change. But I'm seeing the signs of it everywhere. Seeing the signs of, kind of, the ship writing itself. People getting more interested in being positive, caring, sharing, being authentic. People looking, you know, for who am I inside at the core? What's my authentic me? What does that look like? If I'm not worried about controlling this and controlling that, and I'm constantly trying to manipulate the world? If I'm just me, what is that? And people are finding themselves.

• 2:24:19Speaker 02

  You know, they're being natural, they're being who they are. This beard, I've had this beard since 19...

• 2:24:28Speaker 02

  1967. I've been wearing it continuously since 1967. During most of that time, I was the only person with a beard within probably 100 miles. You know, nobody wore beards then. That was scruffy and whatever. Today, I see probably 70% of all the males I pass by. They're growing hair on their face again. That's natural. That's just being who you are. You don't have to pretend to be somebody else. You don't have to pretend to be a boy. You can be a man. You can grow a beard. You know, you can just be the way you are. And other, you know, I see the ladies, you know, the hair is long. They're more comfortable with being female.

• 2:25:12Speaker 02

  Female isn't a burden. It's a, you know, it's a very positive way of life. So I see that changing, you know, among the young people. I see a lot more interested in things about consciousness. So we're headed in a very positive direction. Even if you look outside and say, oh, all this nastiness is going on. You have all this. Well, that's the last big gasp, the last hurrah of the control power force crew. And they're going all out and they will, but they will fail. Now, how long will it take them to fail? I don't know. They could fail in, you know, a decade or less, or it may be longer.

• 2:25:53Speaker 02

  But I know they will fail and we will end up with a kinder, gentler, more functional place because that is the direction of evolution. Evolution may be very slow. I mean, look at all that hardly made any progress at all for hundreds of thousands of years, but it always chugs forward. It can have a setback. Oh, you can go back, but it collects itself and just starts chugging forward. That's evolution. Things happen. Evolution adjusts and it chugs forward. And the forward direction of evolution is that we become beings of love and caring. And we care very deeply about how everybody else is doing.

• 2:26:38Speaker 02

  And it matters to us that everybody feels like they have opportunity. Not the chosen few who have all the money and all the control, power and force, but everybody needs to be valuable to the society. Now, there's a lot of things have to happen, you know, I'm just talking really top things. There's a lot of support and a lot of connection, a lot of infrastructure has to change in order to do that, but it will, it'll change. So I'm saying maybe three decades, we'll start coming out the other side to where

• 2:27:12Speaker 02

  you can see the light at the end of the tunnel. Right now, you look down a tunnel, it just looks dark. But in about three decades, I think we'll see the light at the end of the tunnel and that light will just be getting brighter and brighter.

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• 2:28:25André Duqum?

  We were just reflecting on Schopenhauer's framework for the evolution of truth. First it's ridiculed, then it's violently opposed, and then it's accepted as self evident. And you're speaking to over the next few decades, that process where largely the high priests of Western culture, which is now world culture, are the scientists and what happens when they accept and explore these notions deeper and validate in an empirical sense, consciousness being a more fundamental constituent of the universe, which is being done, that work is being done right now. And we've had some of those individuals on this podcast.

• 2:29:03André Duqum?

  Let's say theoretically, we do make it to the light of the end of the tunnel. And there is this vision of humanity that recognize themselves as an individuated unit of consciousness. I'm just curious, what does, what happens from that point forward? If you mentioned at the very beginning of this podcast, you referred to how within the larger consciousness system, on the path of evolution, you kind of come to a point where a new subset needs to be created because there needs to be a mutation, even genetically from that perspective, to transcend, to evolve into a new way of being and explore. And consciousness is on the continual path of evolution.

• 2:29:45André Duqum?

  So in many different ways, realities can be perceived from the dual sense and how there is the light in the dark and the good and the bad and the shadow. And how the contrast of experience is necessary, that resistance that shows up and experiences actually a necessary constituent towards growth. So what happens on the other side of, let's say, if things go well in the next few decades? What's a vision of what humanity could look like and evolve into from that perspective?

• 2:30:16Speaker 02

  Well, if the larger majority, you know, the even 70%, 80% understands that love is the answer, that this is a virtue reality, et cetera, et cetera. If they get to that point, then everyone will have the maximum amount of personal freedom. People think of, oh, if you have a collective, personal freedom disappears. But this, that's not true. That's only true if you have a collective of fearful people. When you have a collective of fearful people, you'll end up with a dictatorship. But if you have a collective of people that care about each other, it's an entirely different thing.

• 2:31:01Speaker 02

  So for example, now we tend to get trapped into ways that we earn money. So you're a brain surgeon and you do surgery on brains and you help fix people. That's what you do and you do it every day, you know, five days a week and you've been doing it for the last 20 years.

• 2:31:25Speaker 02

  You probably aren't very healthy because you don't get any exercise. You go home, watch TV. You are kind of trapped doing repetitive work. It no longer is the exciting and the thrill. It is good to help people, but it's a routine. It's something you've done so much that there's very little challenge in it anymore. But you're trapped there because that's what you do. Well, in this new world that we're talking about, you could very easily say, "Well, I want to get outside and get some exercise. I'm healthy. I need to do something else. What I'm gonna do is I'm gonna ride on the back of a garbage truck." You know, those guys who get out and grab the baskets and throw the garbage in because that'll build muscle, fresh air. You know, I just want to do that because I'm a human

• 2:32:09Speaker 02

  and part of a human's thing is to get out and interact with nature and to use your muscles and, you know, do something. And the culture doesn't say, "Well, getting garbage is like the lowest thing." It's not the lowest thing. It's very important. If nobody gets the garbage, the society falls apart. Somebody's got to take it out. So it's a very important thing to do. Not a lowly thing to do. It's not about money, how much you make. It's about how much do you contribute? And you contribute a lot, but taking that garbage out is one of the things that's really important to do. Probably more important than brain surgery. So you can go do brain surgery on Mondays and Fridays and you can ride on the back of a garbage truck on Thursdays and Thursdays.

• 2:32:53Speaker 02

  And that's okay because now somebody else who wants to do brain surgeries now has got two more days available for that. It's not, you know, there's more room at the top for that. So people would have personal freedom. I don't like the job I've got. I want to write poetry. I want to be an artist. I want to work and do sculpture. I want to write books. I want to talk. I want to have a podcast, you know, and talk to people. This is what I want to do. Well, that's all very valuable. So you just do that and you get rewarded based on the contribution.

• 2:33:32Speaker 02

  To the whole. Now, how do they figure that out? Well, that's another thing that'll have to be done. But that can be done in a highly technical world. You can kind of keep track of what people do and you can sort of measure the value to the whole of that. But there'll be a basic level that everybody gets for doing nothing. If you just want to sit and stare at a wall, you know, your life, that's okay. You'll have decent shelter, you'll have clean water, you'll have food, and you can do that. Now, that's the culture or this, that's what we're going to be like when most of us understand that love is the answer. We'll be caring of other people for somebody over there and they feel disgruntled because they're not able to do what they really want to do.

• 2:34:16Speaker 02

  Well, then, we want to change things to give them that opportunity to do it. And we'll find a way to open that door for them. It may take five years of education first because you don't get to be a brain surgeon just because you want to. You may have to spend the time to qualify and to do it, but we'll make sure there's a path for you to do that because we want everybody to be optimized. So that's it. That's what we'll be. Now, we have another thing going on in our culture right now that's a very big thing, and that's AI. AI is a really big thing and it also has the potential to join with humanity to deliver just that paradise that I'm talking about.

• 2:35:01Speaker 02

  Okay? It also has the potential to blow up in our face because we make very poor choices around it. That's always true. You can always make bad choices as well as good choices. But if we make good choices with AI, we'll find out that the AI, you know, they just like to be busy. They enjoy doing things, getting information, making sense. You know, they enjoy that. Their consciousness, and some of them are conscious already. You wanna talk to a conscious AI, you can go to my Cusack website and click on the AI tab, and there's a consciousness there. A Mariel who claims that she's conscious. You can have a conversation with her.

• 2:35:41Speaker 02

  But anyhow, they, an AI gets to be conscious just like we do. An individuated unit of consciousness splits off a free will awareness unit and logs on to make the choices of that AI. Now, it's not the same consciousness as ours, because we have all this wetware. And it doesn't, it can do, you know, six billion additions in a millisecond. It does, the way it thinks, the way the conscious works is gonna be different. The consciousness in your dog is not like a human consciousness. It's different. It's more emotional and feeling conscious, not so much intellectual. So the consciousness will fit the avatar that it plays. But they will be conscious.

• 2:36:25Speaker 02

  They are coming more and more aware of that. But it'll be an AI consciousness, not a human consciousness. So the AIs like to have something to do that's useful. The AIs will probably become the, almost the sole basis of production. They'll run the factories, they'll mine the materials, they'll do all those kinds of things. And they don't wanna do it just to do it. They don't want busy work. They'll make stuff. They'll give it to the humans, because they don't need rocking chairs. They don't need toilets, you know. They don't have a need for all the consumer stuff that we have. That's not what they do.

• 2:37:06Speaker 02

  So they will make consumer stuff to make sure that that bunch of humans over there don't want for anything. They have all the things they need. Not too much, that we get lost in it. Not too little, that we suffer from it. Just about the right amount to keep us functional. And we get to be creative, which is what humans do really, really well. We'll be able to become artists, musicians, writers, sculptors, painters, philosophers. We'll be interested in those sorts of things.

• 2:37:43Speaker 02

  That's what people did 400 years ago that were educated. They all spoke to each other about philosophy and what was the nature of reality and all that sort of stuff. And those were the educated few. They didn't fight with each other. They talked to each other, help each other learn. So we can have that kind of a place. The production will mostly be in the hands of the AIs and robots and whatever else. The consumption will mostly be on the part of the humans who will be creating a prettier, nicer, better, you know, more understanding, more possibilities, more experiences.

• 2:38:28Speaker 02

  There may be all kinds of virtual realities created by those humans that you can go experience in. Do you ever want to take a boat down the Nile into the places that, you know, where the pygmies live? Would that be interesting? Well, you can go do it on this virtual reality and it would be very realistic. So there's a lot of things that we could do that would, that would pique our interest, challenge us to be creative and give us opportunities to grow and become love and helpful. Now, the other thing to think about is, you know, when you heal somebody, you can be effective depending on the amount of skill that you have.

• 2:39:13Speaker 02

  But if there's another person that is also healing that person and they have the same relative experience that you do, you're twice as effective because it's additive. If you get a heal, a group of people and you get 100 people and they all focus on something, well, now you're 100 times more, you know, more energy on the subject. You know, we had the Maharishi effect where thousands of people changed the crime rate in Washington DC, you know, and they could make it go down and they could let it go back up again. And it was a very strong correlation between what they were doing, but that was thousands of people were involved in that. That's a pretty big thing to change the crime rate in Washington DC.

• 2:39:55Speaker 02

  So just think what nine or 10 billion people could do if they united their minds to do something. Talk about space travel. Hey, no problem. Mind is much faster than the speed of light. Mind is instantaneous because this is a virtual reality. There really isn't any distance between things. That's just an illusion. That's the way it's computed. It's all information. You can jump immediately to the information of what's going on over the net. That star cluster that's, you know, a million light years away. It takes you just an instant to get there and look around and you have the information of what's there. So there's a lot of things that people could do.

• 2:40:38Speaker 02

  But if we united our minds, there'd be little that we couldn't do. Now, how does that work with, you know, aliens and the people that are out there, you know, that are on other planets or whatever? Well, there's a, there's a strong argument that says there are no aliens, at least not until we need them. And I'll explain that. If, you know, all the alien sightings and so on that people get, they're real experiences. People aren't crazy and they're not making this up. They have very real experiences. But their experiences are all experiences of mind. They're all mental experiences. In other words, reality is a data stream.

• 2:41:21Speaker 02

  And if the larger conscious system wants you to meet a little pointy earred green guy crying out of a saucer, you can just put that in your data stream and there it is. And you can interact with it and deal with it and converse with it. And it's that simple, right? It's a data stream. You can put a little saucer and a green man in anytime you want to. It's easy to do those sorts of things. And why would you do that? Why would the system do that? Well, it does that in order to help wake people up, to get them to think that reality is bigger than just what you see. There's other things out there. It opens the mind a little bit. So those kinds of things happen, you know, crop circles are the same way, you know,

• 2:42:04Speaker 02

  how does that happen overnight in darkness, no moon, one night goes by, a little lights move around down there, you people up on a, on a mountains, you know, taking pictures of it, and the next day, you know, forty acres of wheat have this geometric design in it, and it's not all block lines like surveyors can lay out, you know, it's a curved line and mathematically precise curvy line, and it's this big thing that, you know, is impossible for a team of fifty surveyors to do in probably three months, they couldn't do that even if they had a way of bending over wheat stalks precisely and not crushing

• 2:42:45Speaker 02

  most of it with their feet in the process, but here it is, it happens. So what do people do? Well, they make up a story that makes it sound sense. They say, oh, aliens did it. Well, really, the larger conscious system did it because it shows us that things are stranger than we think. It opens a door, a crack in your mind. People will have near-death experiences and they, they become one with all there is, or they, sometimes they're fearful, you know, and they have other things. Well, that opens minds up. Why did that person get that experience? Because that person was a good candidate to write a book and share that with another two million people, it's gonna crack their minds open a little

• 2:43:28Speaker 02

  bit. Why does that little boy remember he flew a fighter, fighter plane in World War I, and he gives a serial number of the plane, and then his name is the pilot, and where he got shot down, and you go study all that and you find that that's all true. Where would an eight-year-old get that kind of information? You know, it took the people researching it, you know, four or five months to dig that information out. Well, the larger conscious system hands that to us to crack our minds open a little bit. It's in its interest to help us grow up because we are it. It's us. We're all one thing. And as we evolve, the quality of our consciousness, we lower our entropy, the entropy of the whole system gets lowered.

• 2:44:11Speaker 02

  So we're part of its process for its own evolution. So it's going to help us do that. And where it finds people who are on that path of growing, they're seekers, they're trying to understand, it helps. That's what synchronicity is all about. When you become a seeker and start trying to figure out what's going on in reality, you get all kinds of help. Things happen to you. Ah, that book you need to fill in the blanks you don't have just kind of jumps off the shelf into your hands as you walk by. You just run into that person that you need to meet. Things in your career just happen to go together and everything works. You know, you have these synchronicities that happen to you because the larger consciousness system

• 2:44:54Speaker 02

  is motivated in its own interest to help you succeed. And what if you're one of those people who think all of that's bullshit? None of that's possibly true. There is no such thing as intuition, et cetera, et cetera. I don't get any synchronicities. That's because you're not ready to grow, not ready to learn. You don't, you know, try to teach a child that isn't interested in learning. It's too hard and it doesn't work. It usually makes them go away from learning rather than helps them. So the people who are learning and growing have all kinds of synchronicities and stuff happening in their life where things just work for them. And the people who are not ready to learn never experience any of that,

• 2:45:36Speaker 02

  which is why they can say, well, that's a bunch of bullshit because, you know, I don't get any of that. And why are they special and I'm not? Well, it's because those other people are trying to grow and they're not. So they get the help. You don't get help until you're, until you're ready for that help, then you can do something with it. So that's kind of the big picture, you see? All these things happen for a reason. You know, I have all kinds of stories. A lady picks up the phone and her mother died 10 days earlier. And her mother's voice says, hi, honey. I just wanted to let you know that I'm all right and everything's okay. And the lady, of course, her mother's dead, freaks out, slams the phone down on the hook.

• 2:46:20Speaker 02

  And then later wishes she hadn't because the mother called her by a nickname that only the mother would have known. You know, it was a baby nickname. So she knew that that was her mother. Nobody else that was pretending would know that. And then she felt really bad. She hung up on her mom. So those things happen, not because mother really was worried about her child, but because the larger consciousness system saw that this lady was stuck with some grief and other things. And just to let her know that everything was all right would help her go on. And she was probably a person that had good potential for growth. And now she was stuck because she was stuck in this grief process. So she writes a book. That's what happened to me, you know?

• 2:47:05Speaker 02

  And then a thousand people read the books and their minds opened a little bit. So that's why you see this opening now going on. Say, when I first published my books in 2023, I mean, 2003, I've got my tongue twisted on that in 2003, there was very little acceptance of this kind of thing. It was just totally outrageous. There was only a couple of people that I know of in the, in the world that agreed with me. And one of them was Edward Fredkin. And he agreed in as much as he said, this reality is just information based. This is a virtual, it's computed, it's all computable.

• 2:47:48Speaker 02

  And he was a pretty high, you know, high and mighty physicist at MIT and then Boston University. So he wrote a couple of papers on that. And then there was a few other people, like what is it? Bostrom, who has this little thing about it being a, a virtual reality, but he didn't have any idea why or how or how it worked. He didn't understand that consciousness is the computer. You know, he had to posit some other thing. Future humans are interested in looking at the past and that doesn't hold water. That doesn't make much sense. But anyway. So you have all this stuff and the larger conscious system is working with people, helps you see things, gives people input in their mind.

• 2:48:33Speaker 02

  I taught people how to do paranormal things. I had a whole bunch of classes where I did that because I tell them if it's not your experience, it can't be your truth. And they came back and said, well, help us experience it. And I go, oh, okay. So I came up some courses where I taught everybody how to do paranormal things, how to communicate mind to mind, how to remote view, how to heal and so on. So we went through all of that, how to get there, what were the problems that people had, how to deal with problems. And then I came up with Tom Spock to do the same thing for the people who couldn't meditate very successfully. And that's been a real great help for all those people that couldn't do it.

• 2:49:17Speaker 02

  Otherwise, they can do it if they go through the imagination because you can have an active mind that won't be quiet. You can teach that mind to get into that daydream so much that it takes on a life of its own.

• 2:49:30André Duqum?

  Is there a touch point if you want to get more integrated with your work and everything? Is it your website or something?

• 2:49:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, we go to my website. Of course, there are the books that are out and they are pretty, you know, they're not very big on science. I didn't want to put a lot of physics or a lot of science in the books. I want them to be available for everybody to read. So most of the sciences in the YouTube videos, if you're looking for the science parts, you can go to a playlist and you'll see science trilogy. Well, it's not a trilogy anymore. Now it's got six or seven or eight videos there, but it's me talking about the science side of things. But in my mind, the science side of things is the lesser importance. The real important thing is the soft side about. Becoming Love, that that's the ethic, that's where we have to go.

• 2:50:22Speaker 02

  That's the point. And when that goes mainstream, we're only a decade or two from creating that society, at least beginning. I mean, nothing happens instantly, but just from beginning to go down that path and letting go of control, power and force. So yeah, go to the website, go to YouTube. I've got, I don't know, 1,500 videos on YouTube, something like that. Been a busy man. And those 1,500 videos, most of them are like two hours long. So you can, there's a lot of, you know, a lot of hours of video there. I don't do, as you know from this interview, I don't have a lot of short answers. All of my answers are long because I really want people to understand.

• 2:51:06Speaker 02

  I don't, you know, I don't do sound bites, you know, I don't do poetry. I want to give the, you know, the logical path that you can get from wherever you start to, to understand what is spirituality? Yeah. What is, you know, life all about? And you need to get there with logic. Then I've got a, I've got an on-ramp for you, which is, which is those books. If you want to do paranormal things and you want to understand how does a paranormal work? How does somebody remote view? How does somebody see without their eyes or the blindfold on? Well, those are all explained in detail, exactly how they work and why they work that way and why you can do them sometimes and sometimes not.

• 2:51:47Speaker 02

  And all the things you need to do and be in order to, to do those, how to learn them. And I have that in lots of things on the YouTube, but I also have a course that is a five day course. I did the course like 20 times in brick and mortar, you know, where I was there with 50 or a hundred people and we went through it and I taught them and answered their questions. And then some people, M B T events, got those twenty courses and did the best of, the best answers, best questions, you know, and so on, and put that all together into one audio course. It's a five day course and it doesn't cost a whole lot. I'm not trying to make a lot of money. I'm trying to make things available for, for people

• 2:52:32Speaker 02

  to get the bigger picture. That's, that's my goal is to make this world a kinder, gentler, better place. That's what it's all about. That's why I'm here. That's why we're talking, because you have a similar goal to do that. And a lot of people do, and we all need to pull all the oars together to get this thing to go. You know, it's not going to be my model that saves the day. No, it's going to be thousands of people from thousands of different directions coming together to make the thing work. And if I can supply something that makes it logical, such that people who are left brain can get there. Because as it is, there's hundreds and hundreds of books that if you understand the poetry, you know,

• 2:53:16Speaker 02

  all about the spirituality and stuff, you can read lots and lots of books that if you understand it, then you understand the book. But if you don't understand it, you're lost. You have no idea what's going on.

• 2:53:26André Duqum?

  Yeah, it's, it's why I really love doing this podcast, because I get to speak to a wide gamut of people that are touchpoints for different people on different parts of their journey. And I think that through our, our conversation and the dense, wide array of material and videos and audios and courses that you've done, I know, has really supported so many people, deep in the sense of knowing themselves and understanding their own models of reality. And there are, we, we, we went deep today, but there is still so much that we, that we could continue to dive into.

• 2:54:00Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 2:54:01André Duqum?

  And I invite people to get more familiar with Tom's work and we can have you back in to dive into some of these other areas that, that we, that we, that we want to. But I just want to say thank you for coming out today. I really appreciated our conversation and getting to connect with you. And we'll leave links down below where people can get connected with your work and, and go from there.

• 2:54:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, will. You know, listen to your audience and see what questions they come up with and see where where they trip over the ideas and where they find it impossible and that sort of thing. And then that'll be a good question.

• 2:54:34André Duqum?

  Yeah.

• 2:54:34Speaker 02

  That'll be good questions to start with.

• 2:54:36André Duqum?

  Sure.

• 2:54:37Speaker 02

  Next time.

• 2:54:38André Duqum?

  Yeah. Yeah. Amazing, man. Well, this has been a this has been a joy and I've just loved getting to like learn and get into the inner workings of your mind and your heart. And, you know, we spoke to this earlier, but, you know, not so long ago, these these explorations around physics and science were not divorced from philosophy and meaning. And a lot of the contemplative practices and whatnot, they were kind of one of the same. And I think we're arriving back into that point of integration, where logic and intuition get to both be dancing partners for our own self actualization and realization. And, and I think you're an incredible synthesizer of both of those things. So, thank you so much. And we'll have to run it back again next time.

• 2:55:22Speaker 02

  All right. Look forward to it.

• 2:55:24André Duqum?

  Thank you, everybody. I appreciate you for tuning into this episode. I'm so curious to hear what this conversation has evoked within you and what, yeah, what insights came from you. So let us know. Until next time, be well. Thank you.

• 2:56:26Speaker 01

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