265. Complexity to Connection: Humanizing High-Stakes Communication

How to turn complexity into connection through clear communication. Communication in high-stakes moments isn’t about saying more — it’s about connecting better. For Jonathan Berek https://www.fastersmarter.io/guests/jonathan-berek/ and Phil Polakoff https://www.fastersmarter.io/guests/phil-polakoff/, the most effective communicators don’t rely on jargon or performance. They rely on empathy, listening, and stories that resonate. Both longtime Stanford Medicine leaders, Berek and Polakoff have spent their careers translating complex, emotional, and often urgent health issues for patients, colleagues, and the public. And they’ve learned that the message only lands when it’s delivered at the right level, with the right intention. “Know your audience,” Berek says, describing the importance of “leveling” — communicating in language that meets people where they are, without talking down or over their heads. For both Berek and Polakoff, listening is the foundation. “The two most important skills in communication are empathy and listening,” Berek explains — not as soft skills, but as the core mechanics of trust. Polakoff agrees, pushing for directness and clarity: “I like a yes or a no. I don’t like ambivalence or ambiguity.” And when it comes to being memorable, he’s relentless about simplicity: “Think bold, start small.” In this episode of Think Fast, Talk Smart https://www.fastersmarter.io/, Berek and Polakoff join host Matt Abrahams to examine what great communicators actually do: prepare deeply, speak concisely, listen with intention, and use storytelling to bring others along. Because as Berek puts it, “People feel the emotion when they see a story,” and emotion — paired with clarity — is what turns information into impact. Episode Reference Links: Phil Polakoff https://www.fastersmarter.io/guests/phil-polakoff/Jonathan Berek https://www.fastersmarter.io/guests/jonathan-berek/ Connect: Premium Signup >>>> Think Fast Talk Smart Premium https://www.fastersmarter.io/premium/Email Questions & Feedback >>> [email protected] Transcripts >>>Think Fast Talk Smart Website https://www.fastersmarter.io/265-complexity-to-connection-humanizing-high-stakes-communication/Newsletter Signup + English Language Learning >>>FasterSmarter.io http://fastersmarter.io/Think Fast Talk Smart >>>LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/company/think-fast-talk-smart/,Instagram https://www.instagram.com/thinkfasttalksmart/, YouTube https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL6caGRBUYZCmgDGM2RK6mxKB9jG_ccmm3Matt Abrahams >>>LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/maabrahams/ Chapters: (00:00) - Introduction (01:23) - Raising Awareness For Women’s Cancer (02:20) - Redefining Health Beyond Disease (03:42) - Why Storytelling is Essential (05:42) - What Makes a Story Memorable (07:19) - Advice for Better Communication (08:20) - Making Complex Ideas Accessible (09:08) - Speaking at Your Audience’s Level (10:31) - Listening & Empathy (11:13) - Improving Communication with Improv (12:42) - Communication for Collective Change (15:21) - Mentorship & The Big Picture (16:32) - The Final Three Questions (19:09) - Conclusion ******** Thank you to our sponsors. These partnerships support the ongoing production of the podcast, allowing us to bring it to you at no cost. Learn more about how Notion https://www.notion.com/?utm_source=podcasts&utm_medium=thinkfast can support your business at notion.com/thinkfast. https://www.notion.com/?utm_source=podcasts&utm_medium=thinkfast Join our Think Fast Talk Smart Learning Community and become the communicator you want to be. https://learning.fastersmarter.io/?redirect_from=podpage

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Matt Abrahams?

  In the moment, conflict is difficult for everyone. In our October newsletter, out now, you will learn ways to help yourself handle these challenges better. Not only do you get specific advice, we're also providing an infographic to help you remember. Find our newsletter on the Think Fast, Talk Smart LinkedIn page or at fastersmarter.io under Resources. Moments lead to movements which lead to momentum. My name is Matt Abrahams and I teach strategic communication at Stanford Graduate School of Business. Welcome to Think Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast. Today, I am super excited to talk to my friends and mentors, Jonathan Baric and Phil Polakoff.

• 0:44Matt Abrahams?

  Jonathan is a renowned gynecological oncologist. He is a professor at Stanford School of Medicine and a former chair of the Stanford Department of Obstetrics and Gynecology. In addition to his extensive medical career, he is an active documentary filmmaker, creating and directing films on medical topics with a focus on patient stories. He is also the faculty director of Health Communication for the Stanford Center for Health Education, where he promotes effective medical communication and health media. Phil is a distinguished health transformation advisor, a consulting professor at Stanford School of Medicine, and a widely published author. With a career spanning 45 years, he has held diverse roles from a nominee for U.S. Surgeon General to CEO of his own nonprofit, A Healthier We, which is dedicated to improving health.

• 1:29Matt Abrahams?

  He is the author of five books and more than 200 articles, making him a leading voice in healthcare innovation, policy, and administration. Welcome, Phil and Jonathan. I am really excited to have you here. It's been a long time coming. Thanks for joining me. Thank you.

• 1:42Speaker 01

  Thank you very much.

• 1:43Matt Abrahams?

  Shall we get started?

• 1:44Speaker 01

  Yep, absolutely.

• 1:45Matt Abrahams?

  Awesome. Beyond being medical professionals, you each have worked hard to draw attention to and solicit money for important healthcare issues. Jonathan, can you share a bit about your work to bring attention and funding to women's cancer issues?

• 1:59Speaker 01

  Yes, when I came to Stanford 20 years ago, I realized in putting together the Stanford Women's Cancer Center that we needed more than just governmental funding. I put together, with the help of many women, in particular in the Stanford area, a philanthropic project called Under One Umbrella, where we raised money for women's cancer research. Those monies have been used to recruit people, to create endowed professorships, and also support our clinical research trials group, as well as giving out innovation awards. And that's really helped to improve our research capabilities and all the activities at Stanford Cancer Center.

• 2:42Matt Abrahams?

  People around the area and around the world have benefited from that work. So, thank you on behalf of all of them. Phil, your turn. Can you share a little bit about what you've been doing to highlight healthcare inequity issues?

• 2:53Speaker 02

  I go back in a different direction, not better or worse than my friend Jonathan's. Mine's a little bit more holistic on the word health. In 1948, the World Health Organization put forth their definition of health. Health is a state of complete physical, mental, social, and I inserted the word spiritual well-being, not merely the absence of disease or infirmity. So I'm looking at how people improve their health, and I've seen health care and sick care through all the different lenses. So the challenge has always been, how do you effectively have changed transformation, which is not easy. Early in my career, I was a clinical investigative officer for the CDC, Centers for Disease. I traveled around this country with a new organization called the National Institute for Occupational Safety

• 3:38Speaker 02

  and Health. And I got to see both urban and rural issues. And that's where my passion's been, to see the three Ps: practicalities, policies, and political will. For me, the real opportunity now is can we cross the chasm and bridge the gap so it becomes for all of our society?

• 3:56Matt Abrahams?

  And that work has been really important in the past and even more important today.

• 4:00Speaker 02

  It's mission critical now. Crisis to opportunity.

• 4:04Matt Abrahams?

  Absolutely. Not only are you both steeped in the medical business and world, but interestingly, you both use very effective communication tools to bring your message to the public. You both, for example, use film. I'm curious to learn your thoughts on the importance of storytelling to move and motivate people, and what goes into a good story. I know, Jonathan, for example, you've directed many films. I'm curious to get your take on storytelling.

• 4:29Speaker 01

  When I was an undergraduate student, I was very involved in creative writing. I wrote plays, short stories, and I was very involved in the theater. Did a lot of acting, directing, and actually, for a while, thought I was going to end up in the theater, but decided to go to medical school after all. But what I learned during that time is the value of storytelling and how powerful it is in terms of engaging people with a message. Sometimes, much more valuable to do it that way, rather than just write it out. I had the opportunity, in the past couple of decades, to get into filmmaking. As more as a hobby originally, although now it's become a passion. And I do a considerable amount of filmmaking, mostly short documentaries.

• 5:13Speaker 01

  People are more likely to listen to something that's in a film than they are in the written word. I think it's part of our culture now, because we're the television film generation. People feel the emotion when they see a story. In my case, I do a lot of medical-related types of films, and I use patient stories, which tears at the heartstrings often. And I think that gets the message across more than if I were to just say, "Well, I'm doing this little science project, and there's this molecule, and we're trying to do that." And people, their eyes glaze over. But if they hear a patient's story, if they hear someone saying, "I took this drug," or

• 5:54Speaker 01

  "I was on this medication, and it gave me a remission in my cancer," people get that. They understand, and they think, "Wow, this is a very important medical advance."

• 6:04Matt Abrahams?

  So I hear a couple of things in that response. One is storytelling that has emotion can really connect to people. And storytelling that is personal, that brings it down to an individual level, can really help with that connection. Phil, you have also used film and media to really move people. I recall watching one of your films, talking about Appalachia and things going on in healthcare. And was very moved, and part of what impressed me so much was actually seeing the things. It's one thing to read it, it's another thing to see it. What's your take on the importance of storytelling and what makes for a good story?

• 6:38Speaker 02

  I find it intriguing, or the intersection between Jonathan and I, our evolution was almost along the similar paths. In the process, I started doing radio shows. And back then, I found they were more interactive than podcasts today, because I would get questions from the audience. And then I saw being a little different than Jonathan, but I was heavily involved in politics. So at a very young age, while he was doing his surgical training and his academic and all that, I was running for lieutenant governor of California when I was 32. So you realize that you had to be empathetic, but you had to say things that were very precise and very short on words. So that's my pearl. I now have the trifecta of words.

• 7:21Speaker 02

  So it could be, what are the three most important things in one's life? It's relationships, it's service and purpose. Two, how do you deal with social issues? You listen more, speak less. Three, think bold, start small, move with passion and purpose. Because people don't have longevity.

• 7:41Matt Abrahams?

  So a lot of insight there. So being concise and clear, highlighting bright spots are ways to enhance a story so that it's memorable. You are embodying, Phil, a saying my mom has, which is to tell the time, don't build the clock. Be very concise, be very clear. One of the things I have enjoyed in getting to know you and having you as friends and mentors is you both have really nice communication styles that are really effective. You're just both affable, super bright and very articulate. Do you have advice for people on how they can be better communicators? You're around a lot of people and you see a lot of people communicate. Phil, are there a few things that you would recommend, suggest, advise people to do to improve their communication beyond being concise and clear?

• 8:26Speaker 02

  Coming in front with Jonathan and you, I thought about what was important. Make sure you do your homework ahead of time and have the questions distilled. Find mentors in your life that can help you and look to have opportunities that are outside of your comfort zone.

• 8:42Matt Abrahams?

  Lots of goodness in that statement. Jonathan, one of the things that's always impressed me about you is you are able to take very complex, often scientific, information and make it very relatable. Can you share how you do that so we can all benefit? What are some of the things you think about to make the very academic, very scientific information something that we can all understand and access?

• 9:03Speaker 01

  I guess the first thing I think of is the process of what some people call leveling, which is be sure that, first of all, you know your audience. And so you communicate in a style and with words and phrases that you think will connect with that particular audience. When you're speaking to a lay audience about a complex medical issue, you don't speak down to them and you don't speak up to them. You try to get to their level, and that's the best way to connect.

• 9:30Matt Abrahams?

  Absolutely. And one of the things that you do, and I'd love to get Phil's comment on this as well, you listen very well. Many people I know with the accolades and backgrounds such as you both have almost use listening as the starting gun for their talking. Jonathan, you and I, we met, you were a student in one of my classes, and I was so impressed right away with how you listened to our MBA students, whose life experience is very different than your life experience was at that point. And yet you would listen, you would acknowledge what they said, and then you would connect to it. How important is listening in all of this?

• 10:04Speaker 01

  Well, I think the two most important skills in communication are empathy and listening. And they are related because you demonstrate empathy through listening and, of course, other phrases that you use to connect with people with whom you're trying to communicate. You have to have an open mind and an open heart, as they say, when you communicate with people. I think a couple of things that Phil said are important to emphasize. Doing one's homework, being prepared, is critically important. And to quote an actor who says the other important thing is show up on time, it really has to do with demonstrating your availability and your awareness of the circumstance and the situation so people take you serious.

• 10:49Speaker 01

  That's very important when you're communicating to an audience.

• 10:53Matt Abrahams?

  You're showing respect, and you're showing that I'm here for you. Phil, talk to me a bit about your perspective on listening and empathy, and you're expert at both. I'm curious.

• 11:02Speaker 02

  As you get a little older, two words have more impact to me than they used to. And I've gotten to the point where I'm... Patient, but I like a yes or a no. I don't like ambivalence or ambiguity. If you don't want to do it, that's okay. And if you do, don't constantly ask for something without telling what you get as you deliverable. Doesn't matter if it's academia, philanthropy, but make sure there's some tangible, definable results that you believe in as you contribute to someone else's efforts.

• 11:35Matt Abrahams?

  What I'm hearing in what you just said really is about this notion of clarity. Clarity of the connection you have with the person and taking the time to find those connections and then clarity in the actions and communication. Jonathan, I want to come back to one thing that you and I have collaborated on, along with my friend and your friend, Adam Tobin. You invited Adam and me to, and Adam has been a guest on the show before, to help bring ideas from the world of improvisation into the medical profession. Rather than build that whole story up, I'm just curious for you to share why you believe tenants from improv can be so important in really high stakes communication situations, such as a medical professional with a patient.

• 12:16Speaker 01

  When we first promoted this idea, of course, my colleagues said to me, improv, I don't want to do stand up comedy. And I said, well, just think about it this way. Every interaction you have with a patient, you improvise. You improvise what you say, you talk around it. You don't have a script. You may have an idea of what you're going to talk about, but the advantage of practicing a situation where you're improvising within a group is that it allows you to get more in touch with your ability to improvise so that when you're in a difficult situation with patients or others, it helps you refine your skills. And people got the notion and the sessions that you and Adam ran were very popular, very well received, and they got the message. Yeah, this is helpful.

• 13:00Speaker 01

  And a lot of people afterwards said, this really improved my communication skills.

• 13:04Matt Abrahams?

  The point that I want to echo for everyone is that you can practice spontaneity. You can put yourself in situations, learn some rules, and that can really make a difference. Because if you think about it, most of our communication is spontaneous. It's not planned. And in high-stakes situations, having that preparation can help. And I appreciate that you invited us to do that. You are both examples and role models of people who've pivoted or expanded their work later in their careers. As I'm getting older, and hopefully perhaps a little wiser, I'm curious about your thought process behind the choices you made and the moves that you made. Did you always know you wanted to become advocates? Or did you discover this on the way? And how has this felt? And how have you communicated this change to other people?

• 13:46Matt Abrahams?

  A lot of people change and pivot as they get older, but we have to explain it. Phil, have you always thought that this is where you wanted to end up?

• 13:53Speaker 02

  I don't think that's exactly my thinking. My thinking was, how do you, as I said earlier, have a role in making meaningful transformation change? I think what I learned is it's less about I and more about we. There's another line that people can use. In these times, if I is replaced by we, even illness becomes wellness. Only working together will we have a healthier society. I tried many different ways, working for large healthcare corporations, looking for large corporations, the government, not-for-profit, academia. And I think what I did is I did not have enough laser focus on fewer initiatives. Because if you want to get something done, you have to be laser focused.

• 14:35Speaker 02

  And you can't be a clinician and a politician and see patients at the same time you're trying to be an entrepreneur, because you'll lose focus. The other thing is, I think I would have benefited by some executive coaching. So right now, I'm much more laser focused, given the challenges we're facing, on trying to have a petition sign to make health a basic human right and get this to be a bipartisan hearing in Washington. So people can collectively think it's their process, not mine. Maybe we take initiative. But you get from moment to momentum to movement. Three M's are not easy to go from A to B to C. So you have to have the passion, but also as you get a little older, and I'm not speaking

• 15:18Speaker 02

  for Jonathan, moderation is a pretty important word. Don't think you can do the same thing you used to do. I was a competitive athlete. You cannot be on a rugby field all over the world again, playing rugby. It's a little bit too much. So pace yourself and have fun. I mean, I think that you talk about empathy on tiers are great, and I don't have a problem tiering in public, but it's also nice to smile and be happy.

• 15:43Matt Abrahams?

  I like that idea of seeing interactions as the beginning of the next conversation. The ability to be focused, to moderate what you do, to have fun, that's all great advice. And I hope everybody is listening to how Phil uses words. I love I to we, illness to wellness, from moment to movement to momentum. These are all ways to help us not just remember, but to feel a sense of aha or motivation. Jonathan, tell me about your decision and arc and how you've communicated that focus.

• 16:14Speaker 01

  I think as I progressed in my medical career and matured, hopefully during that process, I was trying to look more at the big picture. You know, when you're laser focused on taking care of patients and doing research, in my case, cancer research, you have to be very dedicated to the process. But as you mature in the field, you learn the importance of mentoring others. Obviously, when I was younger, I desperately needed mentors, and I learned from that experience. I learned from you and others in the communication field. So in a way, you served as a very important mentor at the time when I needed it.

• 16:54Matt Abrahams?

  One thing I heard both you say differently. You talked about mentors and finding mentors, and you talked about coaches and finding coaches. It's not a single act. You have to have others to help you. And you both have served as mentors for many people, including myself, and I am greatly appreciative of that. We'll be right back to finish our conversation. But first, we're going to take a quick break for a word from our sponsors. Their support covers the cost of production so we can bring you this show for free.

• 17:21Matt Abrahams?

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• 18:03Matt Abrahams?

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• 18:46Matt Abrahams?

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• 19:13Matt Abrahams?

  Before we end, I always ask three questions. One I create just for you and two I've been asking everybody on the show. Are you up for that?

• 19:20Speaker 02

  Always.

• 19:20Speaker 01

  Go for it.

• 19:21Matt Abrahams?

  Excellent. Phil, looking back at your career and success, and you've had many successes, and in your case, many careers, what is one thing you wish you would have known when you were younger that would have helped you along the way?

• 19:34Speaker 02

  Social interaction. The best thing that ever happened to me is when I married my wife, who's my hero, and that changed my path and direction.

• 19:43Matt Abrahams?

  So making those social connections and being open to them. Same question to you, Jonathan. What is one thing you wish you would have known that would have helped you along the way?

• 19:51Speaker 01

  How to be smarter. I think when you're young and you're invincible and you think that whatever you do is okay, you have to learn to be much more circumspect. And it takes a while. That's part of the process of growing up, becoming a mature human being.

• 20:07Matt Abrahams?

  So learning to question and learning to be empathetic earlier. Jonathan, who's a communicator that you admire and why?

• 20:13Speaker 01

  Phil Pizzo. He's probably one of the best communicators I've ever encountered. His ability to speak extemporaneously is quite extraordinary. Virtually every time he gets up in front of an audience afterwards, people, oh, my goodness, that's incredible.

• 20:30Matt Abrahams?

  Phil, what are the first three ingredients that go into a successful communication recipe?

• 20:36Speaker 02

  Being invited to participate, reflecting and stepping back and pause for a moment. And three, to make the communication process, the three I's. Interactive, interconnected, and interdependent. And that it's the start, not the finish, of a dynamic, meaningful interaction.

• 20:57Matt Abrahams?

  All three of those ingredients, although you slipped in five there really, are really important. The one I want to highlight for everyone is the reflective piece. Taking a pause, taking a beat. A lot of us in our communication rush through it. I am glad we did not have to rush through today. And to your point, this is just the start of hopefully deeper conversation among the three of us, but also everybody listening to take away the advice from you. Find mentors and guides. Think about how you tell stories and connect. Make them concise, make them empathetic. Gentlemen, thank you. This was a true pleasure. I'm glad we finally made it happen. Thank you.

• 21:31Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 21:34Matt Abrahams?

  Thank you for joining us for another episode of Think Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast. This episode was produced by Catherine Reed, Ryan Campos, and me, Matt Ibramz. Our music is from Floyd Wonder, with special thanks to Podium Podcast Company. Please find us on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts. Be sure to subscribe and rate us. Also, follow us on LinkedIn and Instagram, and check out FasterSmarter.io for deep-dive videos, English language learning content, and our newsletter. Please consider our premium offering for extended Deep Thinks episodes, AMAs, Ask Matt Anything, and much more at FasterSmarter.io/premium. Before we wrap up, I just want to say thank you for listening.

• 22:16Matt Abrahams?

  It really means a lot to hear how people all over the world are using these ideas in their own lives. It inspires me and the whole team that brings you this show. If you want more episodes and resources, feel free to follow, subscribe, and explore past conversations. We're grateful for your support of Think Fast, Talk Smart.