Jeremiah Johnston: Shroud of Turin, Dead Sea Scrolls, & Attempts to Hide Historical Proof of Jesus

For decades, experts dismissed the Shroud of Turin as fake. New science suggests they were wrong, and probably lying. Jeremiah Johnston with the evidence that it is in fact the actual burial shroud of Jesus. (00:00) What Is the Shroud of Turin? (11:09) The Historical Evidence of Jesus’ Crucifixion (16:33) What Kind of Scientific Testing Has Been Done on the Shroud? (28:28) The Gruesome Details Crucifixion (54:50) Where Did the Shroud Come From? (59:59) The Face of Jesus Paid partnerships with: Cozy Earth: Go to https://CozyEarth.com/Tucker for up to 40% off best-selling temperature-regulating sheets, apparel, and more. PureTalk: Go to https://PureTalk.com/Tucker to make the switch Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:03Speaker 00

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• 0:31Tucker Carlson?

  What's the shroud of Turin?

• 0:33Speaker 02

  The shroud of Turin is believed to be the actual burial cloth of Jesus of Nazareth. It's a very unique artifact because we get in this singular artifact, the death, burial, and resurrection of the historical Jesus, and no other artifact does that.

• 0:48Tucker Carlson?

  What is a burial cloth?

• 0:50Speaker 02

  Right, a shroud, which is mentioned in all four Gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, is simply burial clothes. It's a linen garment that a corpse is wrapped in. And in a Jewish tradition, similar to a pita, how a pita, if you get a pita.

• 1:05Tucker Carlson?

  Like Peter Brad?

• 1:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, literally, it just wraps from over your feet, over the head, and then back around the front of the feet as well. And that is laid, that's when the body is laid to rest, within the burial shroud. That's a shroud.

• 1:38Tucker Carlson?

  So you believe that this piece of cloth, which is represented right there, is that life, is that the actual size?

• 1:46Speaker 02

  It is one to one, 14 feet, 4 inches by 3 feet, 7 inches, or 8.8 by 2 Assyrian cubits, which was the standard unit of measurement in the Roman Empire.

• 2:00Tucker Carlson?

  Okay, so that, so the first fact we can ascertain is that this would have been, these would have been the dimensions of a burial shroud in that period.

• 2:10Speaker 02

  Correct, in the first century in antiquity.

• 2:13Tucker Carlson?

  Is it a continuously woven piece of cloth? It's one piece of cloth?

• 2:17Speaker 02

  It is, pure linen.

• 2:19Tucker Carlson?

  Pure linen, what is linen?

• 2:20Speaker 02

  With a herringbone weave. It's made from the flax plant, and this has a unique herringbone weave. The only reason I know what herringbone is, is my wife has a herringbone backsplash in our home that was very costly. So it has this amazing three to one herringbone weave, which is indicative that a wealthy man would have purchased this, this actual burial garment in his own pre-death planning. And that's exactly what we see is consistent in the resurrection traditions embedded in the gospels. Joseph of Arimathea gives Jesus not only his own family tomb, a new tomb, hewn in stone, but he actually gives him his own burial cloth as well.

• 2:56Tucker Carlson?

  Okay, and it says that in the gospels?

• 2:58Speaker 02

  Correct.

• 2:58Tucker Carlson?

  Okay.

• 2:59Speaker 02

  All four.

• 3:00Tucker Carlson?

  So you're saying that this cloth represented right here, one to one, covered Jesus's body?

• 3:08Speaker 02

  The historical Jesus, and it's not a death cloth. I actually believe it's a resurrection cloth.

• 3:12Tucker Carlson?

  Resurrection cloth.

• 3:13Speaker 02

  What's fascinating is this cloth is unique. We have hundreds of burial shrouds from the land of Israel. We have hundreds of them from Qumran. We have them from all over antiquity, really. But what's unique about this burial cloth, Tucker, is that it has embedded in it the image of a crucified man that has complete correspondence with what we know of crucifixion in the Roman Empire, specifically as it relates to Jesus of Nazareth.

• 3:39Tucker Carlson?

  How do we have hundreds of burial cloths from that period?

• 3:42Speaker 02

  Well, it turns out that Jewish burial traditions were an extremely serious matter, that even Josephus says that the Romans were sensitive to Jewish burial traditions. And so we have--

• 3:52Tucker Carlson?

  Josephus is a Jewish historian.

• 3:54Speaker 02

  Jewish historian of the first century, exactly. And so when these tombs have been excavated, not only are ashuries found, which are bone boxes that have generations of family bones within them, there's also burial shrouds that have been found, both in Jerusalem and in Masada and other places. Around the land of Israel.

• 4:11Tucker Carlson?

  The climate being dry enough to preserve.

• 4:12Speaker 02

  Absolutely, absolutely.

• 4:14Tucker Carlson?

  For thousands of years.

• 4:15Speaker 02

  Thousands of years. In fact, we have people say, well, the Shroud of Turin, it couldn't be Jesus's. You're saying it's 2,000 years old. We actually have linen garments that are much older. They anti-date the shroud by 3,000 years. We have the tarkan dress from Egypt. You can Google it and it's a beautiful linen blouse and it's 5,000 years old. So, given the right circumstances, linen will last forever.

• 4:36Tucker Carlson?

  Amazing.

• 4:37Speaker 02

  So, it's not a shocker that we have burial cloths from antiquity. It's not a shocker that we have pure linen burial cloths. The shocker is the image that's embedded in the cloth.

• 4:49Tucker Carlson?

  Okay, I have many questions and I'll ask.

• 4:52Speaker 02

  I'm excited about this.

• 4:53Tucker Carlson?

  My first question last, which is, wait, I thought the Shroud of Turin had been thoroughly discredited by modern science.

• 5:01Speaker 02

  Right.

• 5:01Tucker Carlson?

  And we'll get to that, but let me just.

• 5:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, stay tuned.

• 5:03Tucker Carlson?

  Provide a partial spoiler by saying what is factually true, which is, no, it has not been.

• 5:09Speaker 02

  Correct.

• 5:10Tucker Carlson?

  Actually, that science has been updated as it so often is, and we know that it has not been discredited. But anyway, okay, what image is on this cloth?

• 5:20Speaker 02

  This is an image of a bearded man, a strong man, a muscular man, height of 5'10" to 5'11", which is interesting because the average Jewish height in the first century was 5'7" to 5'9", so this man would have been taller. He weighs around 170 to 180 pounds. And since this is a contiguous cloth, it's not strips, we're not talking about mummification, right? The Jews didn't embalm. They had to bury the dead on the day of their death. And that's what we see consistent with all the first century or late second temple.

• 5:52Tucker Carlson?

  They did not embalm.

• 5:53Speaker 02

  They did not embalm late, and so they didn't practice mummification. This is why when you read the Gospels and women are coming to the tomb of Jesus on that, what became that first Easter morning, which we know is April 5th, AD 30, or April 9th, AD 33, depending on which year you go with. Women are coming to complete the spicing of the body. Why? Because the body would stink. The body's in rigor mortis. Jews would mourn the dead for seven days inside the family tomb. They would mourn, they would spice the body. And so, the women are coming there on that first Easter morning, not realizing they're going to be the first evangelists of the Christian faith because the tomb is empty and they see Jesus alive again.

• 6:33Tucker Carlson?

  What does it mean to spice a body?

• 6:35Speaker 02

  They would perfume it with myrrh, with aloes because of Jewish burial traditions. Remember when Lazarus dies, he's been dead for four days. And Mary and Martha are like, Jesus, don't open the tomb. The body stinketh, according to the King James Version. Well, that's why they would spice the body because for seven days you mourn the dead at the family tomb.

• 6:58Tucker Carlson?

  So you have to sit next to the corpse and the corpse is rotting.

• 7:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, I've been in hundreds of Jewish burial tombs. They're all like the shape of our hand. And so you would walk in the tomb. It's always cut out of limestone and the tomb has different niches. So the fingers represent the niches, but you would pray, you would worship, you would mourn the dead inside essentially a gathering point within the tomb of Jewish burial traditions.

• 7:23Tucker Carlson?

  And there'll be slots cut into the limestone.

• 7:25Speaker 02

  These niches, right. And in those niches are these bone boxes called ossuaries because one year after your family member, your loved one died, you would collect the bones and those bones would then be placed in a bone box. This is a thing called osalagium. And that's why when you go to the land of Israel today and you see 150,000 bone boxes on the Mount of Olives, that's all Jewish burial traditions. And so this is very insightful because we see a correspondence with everything we learn about the shroud and it bears correspondence with the first century world of Jesus.

• 8:00Tucker Carlson?

  Okay, but of the thousands, hundreds of thousands of shrouds like this that exist, why do we think this one can, has an image of Jesus on it?

• 8:09Speaker 02

  Because all of it matches the way in which Jesus was crucified. And that's what's powerful about the shroud.

• 8:17Tucker Carlson?

  Okay, for example?

• 8:19Speaker 02

  For example, on the shroud, we have blood all over it. And the blood is interesting. It's been tested. It's type AB blood, which is Semitic blood. Few, the fewest amount of people in the world, only 6% of the world's population has type AB blood. And so this is human blood. It's male blood. It's not blood of an animal. It's not a hoax. You would have to actually kill someone if you were trying to reproduce the shroud, because we have pre-mortem and post-mortem blood all over the shroud. So that's interesting. So this tells us that someone died a torturous death, a death where he was flogged. We see scourges, there are hashes all over the front and back images. What we have is the front on the left, lined up perfectly here in the middle of the camera. We see the face of the crucified man.

• 9:04Speaker 02

  And what sticks out, you can actually see between rib five and six, a gash in the side. Well, Jesus, we know from John's gospel, he has penetrated through rib five and six by a spear. And that spear, John says, blood and water comes out. Well, that's post-mortem blood. We know that that blood differs from the other pre-mortem blood on the shroud. So, so many of these factoids are indicative that this was a man who had suffered crucifixion under the Romans. They were experts at it. And we see that all of this bears correspondence with what we read in the gospels about how Jesus died.

• 9:39Tucker Carlson?

  How do we know that the man pictured on this shroud was crucified?

• 9:43Speaker 02

  That's a great question, because there are crucifixion nail wounds. You can actually see in the forearms of the crucified man, we see, by the way, wrist, hands, the entire hand, it's all the same Greek word. And so Jesus, he, we know that the nail penetrates through the wrist and the palm. And that's how the Romans would crucify their victims. In fact, we have 21 different evidences of crucifixion with nail penetrations just in the land of Israel in the first century. So this was a common way that the Romans had perfected in killing people.

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• 13:33Tucker Carlson?

  The earth. So we know that crucifixion was a historical practice.

• 13:38Speaker 02

  Absolutely. And it's the best established fact of the ancient world, Jesus' death by Roman crucifixion.

• 13:43Tucker Carlson?

  What does that mean?

• 13:45Speaker 02

  Meaning that if we can't know that Jesus died by Roman crucifixion based on the historical record, we shouldn't believe anything from history at all. We have as much evidence for the crucifixion of Jesus that we have from Roman empires of the same, the Roman emperors of the same period, which is remarkable.

• 14:01Tucker Carlson?

  Where does that, it is remarkable. Where does that evidence come from?

• 14:04Speaker 02

  It comes out of all of the sources, Tacitus, Suetonius, Lucian. We have 11 different sources within, and I always use what the most critical scholars use, within 100 years of the time of Jesus, which his ministry begins in 26 to 27 AD. He's crucified, as we said, on that first Easter weekend, April 5. He's resurrected. He's crucified April 3rd, AD 30. We know the exact date, which is fascinating to know that. And then we have 11 sources.

• 14:32Tucker Carlson?

  AD 30.

• 14:33Speaker 02

  AD 30. Right. And so we have 11 sources that talk about this Jesus, this crested, he's spelled in variant ways, but they're all talking about the same person, this Jesus Christ who's crucified under the reign of Pontius Pilate at the hands of the Jews. And that's written in Tacitus Suetonius Josephus. There's some remarkable work coming out with Josephus recently that Josephus, who we've already mentioned, the first century Roman historian, he would have had a firsthand knowledge. He would have had friends who were at the trial of Jesus, and he writes about that.

• 15:08Tucker Carlson?

  He was not a Christian?

• 15:09Speaker 02

  No.

• 15:10Tucker Carlson?

  So of those 11, obviously you've got the authors of the four gospels who testified to this.

• 15:14Speaker 02

  You have Saul, Paul, you have Paul.

• 15:15Tucker Carlson?

  Yep, those are all followers of Jesus, but you have non-Christians.

• 15:20Speaker 02

  You have hostile witnesses who give voice to the historicity of the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus.

• 15:25Tucker Carlson?

  Interesting, interesting. So what does the face tell us?

• 15:31Speaker 02

  The face is remarkable. When you look at this, this is truly remarkable. So let me back up for a minute. In 1898, the first photograph is taken of the shroud. Okay, remember, photography has only been invented in the 1840s. And so in 1898, when the shroud has been on display, the shroud has only been on public display a few times in its entire history. And right now, you have to see it through a private viewing. Very few people, this is the closest, this is what's so cool about our broadcast today. And this is the closest the audience will ever get to the Shroud of Turin, what we're bringing today on your network. What's amazing when you look at the face is we see an actual image in Sacanda Pia, when he takes the photograph in 1898 of the shroud. There was no electricity in the church, Tucker, so he had to bring in

• 16:15Speaker 02

  generators. He had to take flash photography. The exposures took 14 minutes and 20 minutes. When I was in Turin, Italy recently, I saw the actual camera he used. It looks like a dorm refrigerator. He used glass plates to take the picture. And in the darkroom, now Sacanda Pia is a lawyer, and he's just a hobbyist photographer, because who was a professional photographer at the end of the 19th century? And he's in the darkroom, and I want to show you what he sees using my cellphone. And when I speak on our tour events, I have our entire audiences do this. If you take your phone, and if you put it in classic invert, and you just bring up the camera, and if you focus in, I want you to do something. I'm going to hand you my phone. I want you to focus in on the image, and you're going to see exactly what Sacanda-

• 16:57Tucker Carlson?

  That is wild.

• 16:59Speaker 02

  Sacanda Pia saw this image, and he's a follower of Jesus, and he believes he's looking at the face of Jesus Christ. Keep in mind, he would be the first one to see the face of Jesus since the apostles. And what does he say in the darkroom in 1898, never more appropriately? Oh, my God.

• 17:19Speaker 02

  And so in 1898, he sees this.

• 17:20Tucker Carlson?

  That is really, it's so much clearer.

• 17:25Speaker 02

  Right.

• 17:25Tucker Carlson?

  And this is photographic negative.

• 17:27Speaker 02

  Right. The negative is actually the positive. And so if you trace and go to the back, I want you to look at the back of the image, the head, the blood, the back, all of those hash marks, the abrasions. I estimate there are 700 wounds on the crucified man of the shroud. No one was crucified the way Jesus was crucified in antiquity. The crown of thorns, you ask. So you ask about the face. So Conda Pia believes that he's looking at the face of God. In that image, of course, he was immediately accused of being a fraudster, a hoaxer, because photography is so new, the darkroom, this can't be an image, right? He had to have faked this.

• 18:05Tucker Carlson?

  I don't understand, just as a kind of physics question, like how, how would a photographic negative be clearer?

• 18:14Speaker 02

  Right. Isn't that fascinating? I mean, that's the thing about the shroud. The physics contradict the chemistry, the chemistry contradict the physics. That, welcome to Shroud of Turin, you're being red-pilled on the shroud right now.

• 18:26Tucker Carlson?

  I'm being baffled right now.

• 18:28Speaker 02

  So the image, what's remarkable about this image is that you have to stand at least eight feet away to see it with the naked eye, as we are right now. The image vanishes if you get closer, it's hard to trace, because the image is superficial, Tucker. I mentioned the blood earlier, and there are pints of type AB blood, pre-mortem, post-mortem.

• 18:47Tucker Carlson?

  Pints?

• 18:47Speaker 02

  Pints of blood all over it. I mean, this was a very, very badly wounded man. So again, indicative of what we know of crucifixion. Pints of blood, type AB blood. And then in addition to that, when you look at the shroud and you see this, and you see all of the image itself that's left, the blood absorbs all the way through the linen, but the image is superficial. Now, this is where you have to stay with me. The image is only two microns thick. It is, it does not absorb all the way through. So if this was a hoax, if this was a work of art, if there's pigment, if there was dye, if there was paint, it would absorb fully. But if we took a razor to the actual shroud, we could shave off the image because it's that

• 19:30Speaker 02

  thin. And this is what the best scientists in the world cannot replicate. That's what's fascinating about the shroud. The image, there's no paint, there's no dye, there's no ink. The image is actually something chemically has happened, and we believe it happened at the moment of resurrection. Thirty-four thousand billion watts of energy in one fortieth of a billionth of a second. A physicist, my friend Paulo Delazzo at Aneel Laboratories, right outside of Rome, spent five years, he's a laser expert, he's a physicist who works with lasers. And they were able to duplicate the chemical change of what happens with the linen

• 20:10Speaker 02

  fibers. Thirty-four thousand billion watts of energy at pick power. But the thing is, it was a cold energy. It happened in one fortieth of a billionth of a second. And that is what changed the chemical structure to leave this image on the shroud. So that answers your question. How is there a photograph? Well, scientists doesn't know the mechanism. We have no way to quantify how this happens. The best scientific laboratories, when you look at Sandia Labs, the Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Los Alamos National Lab, Aneel Laboratories in Rome, the world's best scientist cannot reproduce this image that's in the shroud.

• 20:50Tucker Carlson?

  Does any other of the many burial shrouds from the region and the period, any of them contain images?

• 20:56Speaker 02

  None. We have blood on them. We have Hansen's disease, the tomb of the shroud. We actually had a

• 21:01Tucker Carlson?

  Leprosy?

• 21:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly. That was discovered. The Bible deniers said there was no such thing as leprosy. So Jesus couldn't have healed lepers. Well, we have a shroud that actually has leprosy on it. None of the shrouds that we have have this image, which you've just seen, which is, it's mysterious because the shroud is the most light about artifact in the world, Tucker. And that's why I so appreciate you having me on your program today. It is the most hated artifact in the world. It's the most lied about artifact. It's the most misunderstood artifact in the world. I have an allergic reaction to Catholic relics. There are over 20,000 relics in the Catholic Church. And then a relic is interesting because it has this apocryphal history to it. And yet it can't be studied by the physical sciences.

• 21:44Speaker 02

  The Catholic Church has only two artifacts now that we can call both an artifact and a relic. We have the Shroud of Turin because it can be tested through history, through sciences. We're going to get to the pollen spores. I mean, this is like a CSI experiment. When you look at the shroud, it's amazing. And then we have the Sudarium of Oviedo in Spain, which is the face cloth that John's Gospel talks about that covered his face. That was in the corner of the tomb when the disciples came to see that the tomb was empty that first Easter morning in John, Chapter 20. So in that cloth also has human blood. Guess what the blood type is?

• 22:19Tucker Carlson?

  Type A.

• 22:21Speaker 02

  You can't make this stuff up. It's mind boggling.

• 22:26Tucker Carlson?

  So that wasn't, that image was not really clear

• 22:31Speaker 02

  Right.

• 22:32Tucker Carlson?

  to people until 1898.

• 22:33Speaker 02

  1898, the first photograph. And then in 1931, Enray, the first professional photographer, takes these high resolution images for his day. And that sent shockwaves throughout the scientific community. So much so that you have thinkers like C.S. Lewis. I would, I used to live in Oxford when I did my residency, and I would often go to the Kilns to Lewis's home. And you can go in the bedroom of Lewis's home where the man lived, the great thinker of the 20th century, who was an atheist, who became a Christian. And I look up and above the mantle in his bedroom, I can see it right now in my mind's eye. He has Enray's image of the face of the crucified man. Because every morning that C.S. Lewis woke up, he wanted to be reminded, our God has a face.

• 23:18Speaker 02

  Jesus narrates God to us. If you want to know what God's like, look at the face of Jesus. And Lewis needed that reminder. And so if C.S. Lewis takes the Shroud of Turin seriously enough to have a picture of it above his mantle in his bedroom, where the first thing he saw every morning when he put his feet on the ground, I wanted to take it more seriously.

• 23:38Tucker Carlson?

  Amazing. And he was, of course, Anglican, not Catholic.

• 23:44Tucker Carlson?

  What kind of testing has been done, scientific testing?

• 23:46Speaker 02

  This is, that is such a great question. This is where I went from being a shroud skeptic because I was conditioned in Oxford in my residency that we, you know, we deny miracles, we deny anything supernatural. Oxford is really a factory for creating apostate Bible scholars by and large. I can say that, having been there and been in Faculty of Theology in Keeble College. I know that's not popular, but it's true. I would often go home to my flat in Summertown after reading the Greek New Testament with my cohort and I would ask my wife, Audrey, am I the only one who actually believes in Jesus in this group? And that's okay. And I was conditioned that this, this is a Catholic relic. There's no historicity behind this. It's a joke. And I was conditioned by that.

• 24:31Speaker 02

  And then I was scary. We're, and this is why your voice is so important, Tucker. So many people, they're, they know enough to be dangerous. They're TikTok smart or they're YouTube smart. They have a soundbite, but they have no substance to their faith. And I want to have a substance to my faith. I'm a truth addict. I follow truth wherever it leads. And my pastor, Jack Graham, began encouraging me to just look into the primary sources for the shroud, not to pay attention to the, to the blogosphere, but to pay attention to what, what do the scientists actually tell us? And once I began to look at the scientific studies that undergird all of the facts I'm sharing with you, I remember being, it took my breath away. The evidence was so compelling. So to answer your excellent question, given that framework, 102 scientific disciplines

• 25:13Speaker 02

  have studied the shroud and produced peer reviewed journals, studies and cases for all the different aspects. And when I, so when I tell you it's the most studied artifact in the world, I mean it. 102 academic disciplines have spent 600,000 scientific hours, like my friend Paul Delazo, studying, studying the lasers, like my friend Bruno Barberis, the mathematician from University of Turin, not a theologian, not a preacher, great guy, good friend of mine. Bruno is a mathematician and he took all of the excellent questions you're asking me, the correspondence of how do we know he was crucified? How was he crucified? What blood type, crown of thorns, nail print? Nails scarred side, nail prints in the calcaneus, the heel,

• 25:58Speaker 02

  which is interesting. We'll talk about that. The scourge marks from, and then the patibulum abrasions, the crossbeam. When he factored all of those probabilities together, Bruno Barbaris, the mathematician, said, "There is a 1 in 200 billion chance it's anyone other than Jesus of Nazareth." 1 in 200 billion. I like my odds.

• 26:16Tucker Carlson?

  Because the physical, the representations in this image track so precisely to the accounts.

• 26:24Speaker 02

  Exactly. Not only with scripture, but with what we know of crucifixion from Josephus, from Philo, from all of the other first century historians as well.

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• 27:18Tucker Carlson?

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• 28:45Tucker Carlson?

  What do you mean there are holes in his heels?

• 28:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, this is amazing.

• 28:49Tucker Carlson?

  Can you describe crucifixion? What was it? What was the purpose? How did they die?

• 28:55Speaker 02

  Crucifixion was the most heinous way to die. It turns out humans are really good at figuring out terrible tragic ways how to destroy ourselves. And crucifixion brings that to a fever pitch. The Persians likely invented it. Alexander the Great, who gives us the language of the Bible, coined a Greek. He also made crucifixion fashionable throughout his Hellenization of the world. The Romans come along and they take crucifixion that they learned from Greek Hellenization and they perfect it for 700 years. Remember, Josephus tells us that during the Jewish revolt, AD 66 to 70, Titus and Vespasian are crucifying 500 Jews a day. And so they were experts. Now, it wasn't, wasn't like they had a crucifixion manual.

• 29:40Speaker 02

  There were 30 provinces in the empire during the time of Jesus. Remember, we have Pontius Pilate, who's governor. We have first Augustus, who's emperor. And then we have the other emperors who followed during the time of Jesus. There's 30 provinces and the provinces would practice crucifixion in different ways. But it was in the, it was in the Syrian province where Judea was, where it was particularly heinous. I already mentioned, we have 21 different records of crucifixion with nail piercing. Nails were iron. I actually have a nail artifact that I'm going to show you. In fact, this is a great time to do that.

• 30:22Speaker 02

  I want you to hold the replica of the crucifixion nail. This is a crucifixion nail. It was circular on top and then it was actually a spike. It was an iron spike and the Romans would drive this crucifixion nail through the wrists, through the palm area, and then through the heel, the calcaneus. Our heels are very brittle and so they had to be very accurate when they would pin someone to the cross and they would likely straddle the heels on either side of what was called, there you have the patibulum and then you have the cross beam, then you have the center vertical beam and the heels would be fastened, straddling the beam.

• 31:05Speaker 02

  And the victim would be crucified completely naked. There was no loin cloth. I know we see that represented in traditional Christian art, but Jesus would have been crucified naked because the Romans were saying something with this. The Romans were saying, "Don't ever defy us. You know, we are the truth." And remember, Augustus was called the Son of God. And so when Mark comes along and says, "No, Jesus is the Son of God." I mean, those were seditious words for the time because Augustus was called the Son of God. When Augustus gave good news, it was called the gospel. Christianity takes that term unghellion. No, it's not the gospel of Augustus. It's not the gospel of the Roman Empire. It's not Pax Romana. No, this is the gospel of the true Son of God, Jesus Christ, who rose from the dead.

• 31:51Speaker 02

  And so he's crucified and the Rome-

• 31:55Tucker Carlson?

  And so crucifixion was, I mean, at least one gospel account describes the other men on other side as criminals or rebels.

• 32:04Speaker 02

  Malefactors.

• 32:06Tucker Carlson?

  Who got crucified?

• 32:07Speaker 02

  Well, this is interesting. It turns out, we really hate to crucify slaves and we want to do it in the worst way possible. That was the Roman view. And so, non-Roman citizens, however, we do have citizens like Antigonus, the last of the Hasmonean rulers, who's a Roman citizen, but he defies Rome. This guy named Mark Antony, who becomes Augustus, crucifies Antigonus in a really despicable way. He actually beheads him first and then crucifies him. We have all of his remains. It's interesting, because these crucifixion nails were thought to be something like amulets, phylacteries. They were thought to bring you good luck. And what's interesting is crucifixion nails were reused again and again. So, the

• 32:48Speaker 02

  very nails that pinned Jesus to the cross had probably been used many times before that to kill other Roman victims.

• 32:55Tucker Carlson?

  Because, you know, ironwork is expensive.

• 32:58Speaker 02

  Right. And again, the Romans, you know, they were a slave machine. They knew how to kill people, they knew how to enslave. You know, 40% of the empire were slaves. And so, they had to know how to crucify them. And so, you have this slave crucifying machine that is the Roman Empire. And then, if you were a citizen, but you defied the empire, you would be crucified too.

• 33:16Tucker Carlson?

  How does crucifixion kill a man?

• 33:19Speaker 02

  It's really interesting.

• 33:20Tucker Carlson?

  Were women crucified, by the way?

• 33:21Speaker 02

  Yes. In fact, they were crucified naked, often facing in, facing towards the cross, just for pornographic reasons.

• 33:30Tucker Carlson?

  Ugh. How does it kill you?

• 33:33Speaker 02

  It kills you in a variety of ways. It doesn't kill you quickly. It maximizes torment while minimizing, it actually maximizes the length of death, and it prolongs death. And so, when we study the blood work, so there are some amazing hematological reports that I've enjoyed reading thoroughly. When we study the blood that's on the crucified man, it bears correspondence with that Jesus, there's high levels of creatinine, which means he was suffering from kidney failure, high levels of ferritin, his body had inflammation all over it. He was dehydrated. You read John's Gospel, remember in John's Gospel, Jesus, one of the seven sayings, "I thirst, he's dehydrated." We know that Jesus likely lost

• 34:17Speaker 02

  Lost one third of his blood volume during flagellation. So he was dying of a variety of things. Many thinkers believe that he died of suffocation asphyxiation because of pulmonary edema. And we see that pulmonary edema reflected both on the shroud cloth and on the sudarian of Oviedo, the face cloth. It's six parts pulmonary edema, one part blood. Again, a hoaxer is not going to make this stuff up. I mean, it becomes so crazy.

• 34:43Tucker Carlson?

  Pulmonary edema, so your lungs filled with fluid.

• 34:45Speaker 02

  Fluid, blood, and a mixture. In fact, there is a translucent mixture of fluid around the side wound. We looked at the side wound there between rib five and six, just above that triangle, which is really a patch from a burn hole. There's actually a translucent serum around that, that again, is consistent with what John's Gospel said, "Blood and water flowed out of Jesus because he was already dead." And so, the crucifixion would prolong that. High levels of ferritin, high levels of creatinine. Jesus is suffering liver failure, kidney failure, his body has inflammation all over it. I believe, though, that Jesus died of cardiac arrest, massive heart failure, congenital heart failure, because he has

• 35:27Speaker 02

  labored breathing. We know all of this from the blood samples.

• 35:31Tucker Carlson?

  The New Testament, one account says that the, his tormentors wanted him off the cross by the Sabbath.

• 35:41Speaker 02

  Right, that's Deuteronomy 21, actually before nightfall.

• 35:44Tucker Carlson?

  Before nightfall.

• 35:45Speaker 02

  Right.

• 35:46Tucker Carlson?

  So they broke his legs, or they were planning on breaking his legs. They didn't, because he died.

• 35:51Speaker 02

  And that's consistent with messianic prophecy in David's Psalm 22.

• 35:54Tucker Carlson?

  Yes. But why would breaking the legs of a crucified man hasten his death?

• 35:58Speaker 02

  Wonderful question. Thank you for asking it. So, the one way you could prolong your life is you would kind of essentially try to stand up while you were being crucified, even though your feet were nailed, straddling the cross. And you would just edge up ever so often while you're trying to breathe, and that would prolong your life. So if you broke your legs, obviously you can't stand up.

• 36:21Tucker Carlson?

  So you can't, so the point is when you're hanging by your wrists, you can't breathe?

• 36:25Speaker 02

  Exactly. And you suffocate. Die in your own blood, essentially. And so you can't, you can't do that. And so that's why, but they come to Jesus, even though they break, break the legs of the criminals on the right or left, indicating that Jesus suffered a different kind of torment than they suffered in his flagellation. We'll get to that here in a moment. But they didn't need to break his legs because he was already dead. In fact, their surprise, remember Pilot is shocked that he was so soon dead. Jesus begins the crucifixion around noon and he's dead by 3:00 PM. The Jewish day would begin at 6:00 PM. And so they only have about three hours to get Jesus off the cross, ask for the body of Jesus from Pontius Pilate, and then lay him in a tomb that was not far, probably

• 37:10Speaker 02

  150 feet away from where Jesus was crucified.

• 37:13Tucker Carlson?

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• 37:57Tucker Carlson?

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• 38:38Tucker Carlson?

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• 38:53Speaker 02

  Get your edge back.

• 38:55Tucker Carlson?

  What does it mean that they carried the crossbar?

• 38:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 38:58Tucker Carlson?

  What's the crossbar?

• 38:59Speaker 02

  That is such a great question. So, and this is what's so amazing. When again, I don't privilege this, I just look at this through historical eyes. When you look at the back, the dorsal image on the shroud, you can see that there are scourge marks all over it. But in the, in the right shoulder, coming down at a diagonal, there are abrasions all over the back. We mentioned that Jesus, the man of the crucified man of the shroud weighed around 175 to 180 pounds. The patibulum, which is just the cross beam. So they didn't carry the whole cross. They would only carry the cross beam. And again, that wood was scarce as well, by the way, in the Roman Empire. So that cross beam would have been used again and again for other crucifixion victims. And so Jesus experiences the scourging and

• 39:44Speaker 02

  then he's asked to carry the cross. And that cross, the cross beam, the patibulum, weighs around 125 pounds and he can't carry it. He falls. And this is one of the most moving experiences for me when I was studying the, the signatures of the pollen. We actually have not just pollen, but we have limestone and clay soil that is native only to Jerusalem. And it's on three parts of the crucified man in the shroud. Are you ready for this? It's on the feet, obviously, because he walked barefoot. It's on the knees and then the tip of the nose. So when Jesus is carrying the patibulum, he falls. And he not only falls, he falls hard. He collapses and his face gashes the ground because we have in the tip

• 40:29Speaker 02

  of his nose, actual soil from the land of Israel, from Jerusalem.

• 40:34Tucker Carlson?

  So the cross beam is the piece of wood to which is, is

• 40:37Speaker 02

  Right, fastened.

• 40:38Tucker Carlson?

  His wrists are nailed. And that's tied to the vertical post?

• 40:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, to match the Greek letter Tau. So it would look like a capital T. We see that and he is tied to that post, but he's nailed to it. Make no mistake, he was nailed to it.

• 40:54Tucker Carlson?

  Right, but the, but the cross is tied.

• 40:57Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 40:59Tucker Carlson?

  Why, why the letter Tau? Was there a significance?

• 41:03Speaker 02

  There wasn't. The Christian movement makes it significant. We call this starogram where you, you write the letter Tau and then the letter Ro. So the two letters and we actually see that used in early Christian scriptures. It's, it's like in a, it's, it's essentially just a quick way of saying Jesus was crucified. It's, it becomes an early Christian icon.

• 41:22Tucker Carlson?

  It's just, so this is not really an execution method per se, as much as it's like a way of torturing someone to death. It's like, it's like the rack or the spiked coffin or.

• 41:33Speaker 02

  But much, but yeah, but even worse because it prolonged the agony as long as some would be crucified outside of Jerusalem. They'd be on the cross three, four, five days.

• 41:42Tucker Carlson?

  So this was for the most reviled enemies of the state. Like there's no respect at all. This is not like executing a man by beheading or firing squad in later periods. This is like for the, this is for slaves.

• 41:54Speaker 02

  Right.

• 41:55Tucker Carlson?

  Insurrectionists, like the worst of the worst.

• 41:58Speaker 02

  And thinking about the heel, you know, you think about the first gospel message. It's actually called the Protevangelium in Genesis 315. Remember that first prophecy that, that his heel, he would crush his head, but the enemy would strike his heel. And we know that the enemy did his best to crucify Jesus and did strike his heel. And then you look at that blood that was prophesied even as far back as Genesis 315, that Jesus would smash the enemy's feet, head with his feet, even though his foot was crucified and pierced. And we see that it did take blood and a lot of blood. And I think sometimes we can look at this so academically, we forget, no, this was a real historical person who suffered this torment.

• 42:43Tucker Carlson?

  It's just kind of wild if you think about it, that the early church took. A torture device, like the scariest and most humiliating of all torture devices.

• 42:55Speaker 02

  Right.

• 42:56Tucker Carlson?

  And made it the symbol of their religion.

• 42:58Speaker 02

  Totally. And I mean, again, if

• 42:59Tucker Carlson?

  What is that?

• 43:00Speaker 02

  Well, if we were making up a religious movement, we would never start there.

• 43:03Tucker Carlson?

  I don't think so.

• 43:04Speaker 02

  Make no mistake. I mean, if you and I

• 43:06Tucker Carlson?

  No, because you'd want your God to be triumphant. You wouldn't want your God to be humiliated.

• 43:09Speaker 02

  Certainly not crucified.

• 43:11Tucker Carlson?

  Not by some colonial governor and a bunch of

• 43:13Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 43:13Tucker Carlson?

  Local dumb religious leaders.

• 43:15Speaker 02

  Right. And I think the message in this, and there are so many points of application. Many people wonder if God really loves them. And they say, well, how do I know God loves me? Or if I send away God's love for me? Paul wrote in Romans 5:8, "But God demonstrated his love for us, and that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." And the shroud is a beautiful demonstration. It's a great reminder that God gave his best for us, Tucker, when he sent his son. He didn't give us second best. He gave us his very best.

• 43:46Tucker Carlson?

  But wait, I mean, if God's gonna come to earth and redeem humanity, why would he allow himself to be like ritually humiliated and tortured in the most embarrassing possible way? Wouldn't he show up and be like, I'm God. Like, you're all wrong. I'm here now. Daddy's home. Knock it off. I have all power. He wouldn't like, why would he submit to some like ludicrous local authority and die with criminals on our side? It's like the opposite of what you would imagine.

• 44:21Speaker 02

  It smacks of authenticity to me.

• 44:22Tucker Carlson?

  Well, I agree with that because it's so not what you would expect.

• 44:26Speaker 02

  No, you wouldn't. And 2 Corinthians 5:21 says, "God made him who knew no sin to be sinned for us, so that in him we might be the righteousness of God." And so that means that God treated Jesus, and we see that very clearly and depicted in the shroud, as if he lived your life and mine. So in Christ, and this is the beautiful message of grace, he could treat us as if we lived the life of Jesus. And that's the message of grace. It doesn't make sense. There's not an equation that's gonna help us make sense of grace.

• 44:57Tucker Carlson?

  But it's like the early church decided to brag about its weaknesses.

• 45:00Speaker 02

  Right. And that's the foolishness of preaching that Paul talks about. It's the foolishness of preaching. It's the wisdom of God to those who believe and foolishness to those who deny it.

• 45:10Tucker Carlson?

  Walk through in clinical detail the torture that this man endured before the cross.

• 45:16Speaker 02

  Tucker, it's something I'm still learning about because it takes my breath away, even though I've, I mean, I've, I've published 250,000 words and academic works on the resurrection and on the physical torment of Jesus. I've published several popular books on it. I've talked about it and I can't get over it because there's a, there's a realism to it that reminds me of how shameful my own sin is. Remember-

• 45:40Tucker Carlson?

  But, but pretend you're a police reporter here.

• 45:42Speaker 02

  Right.

• 45:42Tucker Carlson?

  So Jesus is with his disciples at night. Judas shows up in the bunch of olive trees or kind of standing around. Romans show up, local religious authorities show up, grab Jesus. He goes on trial. Walk us through what happens.

• 45:58Speaker 02

  Well, it started before that. It would have started before that night because Jesus cleanses the temple and he literally reserves his fiercest words for the corrupt religious establishment.

• 46:08Tucker Carlson?

  I noticed that.

• 46:09Speaker 02

  Jesus hates hypocrites. He hates corrupt religion. In this case, it was the corrupt Jewish priesthood. It was the corruption of what was happening and taking place at the temple, the, the money changers. You had to put all of your currency in the Syrian, or excuse, yeah, in the Syrian, or excuse me, the Turin temple tax and they were ripping everyone off and they made God's house a den of thieves. Jesus clears the tables. That's a messianic sign. He's, who can do that? But God himself cleans his house. My house shall be called a house of prayer. And so that, that's when they begin to decide to kill him. Who's they? The Sanhedrin. The 70 members of the Jewish

• 46:48Speaker 02

  ruling council ask Pilate to crucify Jesus under the reign of Caiphas, who is-

• 46:56Tucker Carlson?

  When after Jesus rolls into the temple and overturns the tables of the money changers and says, get out.

• 47:01Speaker 02

  They're like, we're going to crucify him. We're going to kill him. We want him dead. And again, they pilot had to sanction that. And so pilot being the politician he was, he says, okay, we'll do it. And so Jesus is arrested. He's taken to the home of Caiphas. You can go to this home today. It's the first century steps that Jesus would have been led to Caiphas's home. He spends his final night there, which would have been Thursday night. He is beaten. He's tortured. They, they put a blind, they put a blindfold on him. They began to hit him. They club him. There are marks on the crucified man where that are different from the scourging. He's clubbed. He, someone took something that's the equivalent of a bat and struck him with like a rod. And that's when they're saying, prophesy to us preacher,

• 47:46Speaker 02

  who, who struck you? You know, because they blindfolded him. And then he is led from there to Herod Antipas, who's, you know, I find no fault in them. Send them back to pilot. You know, everyone's trying to, Herod Antipas was one of, he was the Tetrarch of Galilee. He was one of the Jewish leaders who was put in place by the Roman Empire, who beheaded John the Baptist. He was the one who killed Jesus's friend.

• 48:09Tucker Carlson?

  So he was like, he was like a local guy who was a stooge of the Roman government?

• 48:13Speaker 02

  Totally. But from Galilee, but they all came to Jerusalem for Passover. So this is not, this is not unusual. And then ultimately, Jesus ends up in Praetorium at the hands of Pilate.

• 48:24Tucker Carlson?

  What's Praetorium?

• 48:25Speaker 02

  It would have been right off the Temple Mount, this structure where the Roman, where the Romans were headquartered to keep peace in the city. So you have the Jewish priests, and they have their armed forces that arrest Jesus, like their Jewish police. And then Jesus is handed over to the Roman authorities to be crucified. And in John 19, one, I think it's one of the most overlooked, understated passages in all the Bible, and Pilate had Jesus flogged. And if we read that too quickly, we just don't understand the impact of it. And that's why I've brought these artifacts for you. I want you to, this is a flagrum that we had commissioned. I want you to hold this, Tucker, and I want you to get it in your hand. So flagrum, this is a flagrum.

• 49:11Tucker Carlson?

  Okay, so this is a wooden dowel with three rawhide lines coming off it and lead balls on the end.

• 49:21Speaker 02

  Right, and I have two of them because we know from the crucified man that there were two torturers, so Jesus is being whipped simultaneously by two different executioners.

• 49:32Tucker Carlson?

  So the purpose of the lead balls on the end of the rawhide is?

• 49:36Speaker 02

  Is to inflict as much torment as possible, and so sometimes you would have flagrums with bone ends, but there are all these barbell shapes on the hash marks of the crucified man, which leads me to believe that it was used in something just like this. So this is again, a one-to-one flagrum that the Romans would use.

• 49:54Tucker Carlson?

  So if you, if you hit someone with the length of rawhide and a piece of lead balls at the end, I mean, you'd kill someone with that.

• 50:04Speaker 02

  Right, and this is where Jesus loses one-third of his blood volume, and I want you to understand something for the benefit of our audience. Notice how short this is. I mean, this is not like an Indiana Jones whip, right? I mean, there was a demonic intimacy to this torment, and the blood of Jesus would have been splattered all over the executioners. And so they flogged Jesus. There are 200 wounds on the dorsal on the back image. So if we took time right now to count them up, there's over 200 on the back, there's 172 on the front. There is not an area of Jesus's body that has not been tortured, including the pelvic region. We have, we do not have-

• 50:43Tucker Carlson?

  They hit him in the crotch with this?

• 50:44Speaker 02

  Again and again.

• 50:45Tucker Carlson?

  With lead tips?

• 50:48Speaker 02

  Lead tips. And not only that-

• 50:51Tucker Carlson?

  You just take the skin right off a man's body with that?

• 50:53Speaker 02

  And actually, according to the hematological report, to Jesus's, we think his right eye was blinded. So there's not only, we'll get to the crown of thorns here shortly. So hold your breath for that one. But the, there's his right eye, there are wounds consistent with flagellation. So we don't know if the guys were drunk or if they were just going to town on him, but they whip him. And at some point, the, the scourge hits him probably from the back of the head in the eye, right here, and likely blinds him in the right eye, because his right eye is severely punctured in the image of the crucified man. And also, his left cheek, probably from the rod beating at Caiphas's home, is also hugely, I mean, it's like he's been in a heavyweight boxing

• 51:37Speaker 02

  match. I mean, he can't see out of his right eye, his left cheek is raised. And so this is the flagrum. So this was before his, this was before he was sentenced to crucifixion, before he was sentenced to death? Pilot, again, he brings Jesus after, and again, so 372 wounds that we count. But again, we don't have the lateral side. So again, I want to reiterate, he's probably, there's probably 700 wounds on his body. If you count them up, and if you just- You couldn't survive that long term, right? And this is where Pilot then fashions a crown of thorns, and he places it on Jesus, his head. And let me set these so we can make some- So that's the halo of thorns?

• 52:21Speaker 02

  No, actually not. Let me show you. I thought it was a halo, because you and I, we've both been so influenced by early Christian art, and specifically medieval art. But this is what took my breath away. And I want you to be careful with this, because these are Bethlehem thorns.

• 52:41Speaker 02

  This is the crown of thorns. This is the helmet of thorns. This was not a wreath, Tucker. This was not like a sweatband you wore around your forehead. They fashioned this diabolical crown of thorns, these Bethlehem thorns, that when they dry, they're as sharp as nails. You can feel that. I mean, it pricks your finger right to the touch. And they rammed this on Jesus's head.

• 53:08Speaker 02

  And I want you to let this set in because there's 50 puncture wounds on the head, both the forehead, the top and the back of the head of the crucified man of the shroud. 50 puncture marks. And so you can imagine-

• 53:20Tucker Carlson?

  And that's all, that's all detectable on the shroud?

• 53:22Speaker 02

  Right on the shroud. You can see the back of the head, that all of the blood pooling in the back of the head from this crown of thorns being rammed on his head. So Jesus has 700 scourge marks and then they slam this on his head. And this is where Pilate brings Jesus before the Jewish mob. And this is where we hear in the Latin, "Et jo homo," behold the man, Pilate says. And he's bloodied. How does he even stand? We don't know. His love compelled him to stay standing on our behalf. And this is the point, imagine seeing a man in this state. He will very quickly be dead and it's not enough for the crowd. They begin to yell, "Crucify him, crucify him, crucify him."

• 54:04Tucker Carlson?

  Demons.

• 54:06Speaker 02

  And this is where Pilate says-

• 54:07Tucker Carlson?

  I should also note as a historical fact, he never did anything wrong. Like he was never even accused, he was never accused of hurting anybody.

• 54:14Speaker 02

  Remember, all of the false witnesses came forward when Jesus is in this, this dummy trial at Caiphas's home. And they say, well, he's a bastard. Remember, Jesus is accused of being an illegitimate child. He's accused of blaspheming, of casting out demons by Beelzebub, by the worker, by the prince of demons. All of these false accusations are brought against him and Jesus doesn't open his mouth.

• 54:35Tucker Carlson?

  But just to be clear, even if the false accusations were real accusations, if they were true, he's still never accused of hurting anyone.

• 54:44Speaker 02

  Right.

• 54:45Tucker Carlson?

  In any way.

• 54:47Speaker 02

  No sin was-

• 54:47Tucker Carlson?

  But he's not even accused of it.

• 54:49Speaker 02

  Right, right.

• 54:50Tucker Carlson?

  So, um, right. So just to put it in context, so it's like, they didn't even claim like he, he killed a man in Reno, shot a man in Reno just to watch him die. You know, there's nothing like that at all.

• 55:01Speaker 02

  No.

• 55:01Tucker Carlson?

  He cheated people out of money or he, you know, kicked out the money changers and stole the money.

• 55:06Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 55:07Tucker Carlson?

  Nothing like that at all.

• 55:08Speaker 02

  Right. This was diabolical in every sense of the word, as you rightly point out. And this crown of thorns, the first time I saw it was in Jerusalem. And Tucker, it took my breath away. It still takes my breath away.

• 55:19Tucker Carlson?

  So the reason that- You've revised, or you're going with the modern revision to the common halo of thorns is based on the blood record right there.

• 55:32Speaker 02

  Absolutely. The punctures, the wounds, the basically the pathology of his head and his face and the back of his head. And this is what you ask, how do we know this is Jesus? Well, the helmet of thorns leaves it beyond all doubt in my mind. I believe this is a slam dunk case that the crucified man is the historical Jesus, without a doubt, based on the evidence.

• 55:55Tucker Carlson?

  If you were to recreate, if you were to take the gospel accounts and Josephus and the 21 total accounts of Jesus's crucifixion, which I think is accepted by everyone atheist and Christian alike as a historical fact.

• 56:09Speaker 02

  Right.

• 56:11Tucker Carlson?

  If you were to take all those facts from the record and try and create an image of them, could you create this?

• 56:19Speaker 02

  No, no. That's the fascinating thing. The best scientists in the world cannot explain how there's an image there and they cannot replicate it.

• 56:27Tucker Carlson?

  And it couldn't be replicated now?

• 56:29Speaker 02

  No, even with our best technologies today, it can't be replicated in any way.

• 56:35Tucker Carlson?

  So this brings us to, I think, one of the central questions, which is the providence of this. Where did it come from? What do we know?

• 56:42Speaker 02

  That's the fascinating thing.

• 56:43Tucker Carlson?

  About where this has been for the last 2,000 years?

• 56:46Speaker 02

  Well, it turns out there's a scientist, a criminologist by the name of Max Frye, who was involved in the Nuremberg Trials, a very respected criminologist. He spent five years of his life. Again, this is where I say 102 academic disciplines. These are men and women who risk their academic reputation. And again, why I'm so grateful you're bringing this to light today on your program. Max Frye, who's now dead, spends five years of his life studying the pollen spores on the shroud.

• 57:13Tucker Carlson?

  What's a pollen spore?

• 57:14Speaker 02

  Well, I have it on me from this beautiful state we're in right now, from traveling here and all of the allergies here right now. But there are 56 different specimens of pollen that Max Frye detects.

• 57:27Tucker Carlson?

  From plants?

• 57:28Speaker 02

  From plants, from plant life, botany. And what's amazing about it, again, if we're making this up or trying to hoax this, we would not have known this 700 years ago in medieval Europe. There are certain pollen flower plants that bloom only in springtime, where in the land of Israel, where more specifically in Jerusalem, and that pollen is on the shroud. So you have pollen flowers that only bloom in April in the land of Israel. And that pollen signature, according to Max Fry, that pollen species, we have 56 of them, is embedded in the shroud chemically. What's fascinating is we don't just have pollen from the land of Israel. We have pollen that traces the provenance of the shroud

• 58:10Speaker 02

  from Jerusalem, AD 30, to Edessa, which is far eastern Turkey, where it's there for 900 years. And then we have pollen from Constantinople.

• 58:21Tucker Carlson?

  The Eastern Roman Empire.

• 58:23Speaker 02

  Right, Constantinople. And again, the shroud is constantly escaping the caliphates of the time. So it goes from Constantinople in around 1200 through Athens, finally up to Leary, France, with a knight, Geoffrey de Charnay, who, he never says how he got it, but he has it. And then ultimately, he sells it for two castles to the Savoy family of France. And then it's moved to Chamberry, France, and it's under the House of Savoy. And then it becomes very political because the Savoyes then relocate their kingdom to Turn Italy. And to solidify their political rule, they make sure they bring the shroud with them in the 16th century to Turn Italy.

• 59:07Tucker Carlson?

  So where, as a matter of written record?

• 59:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, great question.

• 59:12Tucker Carlson?

  Leaving aside the, you know, the modern chemical analysis of the shroud, how far can we trace it back so we know it was where and when?

• 59:24Speaker 02

  First, of course, as I already mentioned, the shroud is mentioned in all four Gospels. And then we have Eusebius, who's the most respected church historian. He's at the Council of Nicaea in 325, talking about the face cloth, the image cloth of Jesus. He's the one who gives us the story of the shroud going from the land of Israel to King Abgar, who's the king of Edessa, where it stays for 900 years.

• 59:48Tucker Carlson?

  And we know it was there.

• 59:49Speaker 02

  Right.

• 59:50Tucker Carlson?

  Okay, so.

• 59:51Speaker 02

  And it's known by different names, though. This is the thing that I want to say. I'm a huge Kansas City Chiefs fan. Kansas City Chiefs were not always the Chiefs. They were the Dallas Texans before they moved to Kansas City. It's very similar with the shroud. It's known by different names.

• 1:00:03Tucker Carlson?

  But it's the same object.

• 1:00:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, the mandillion, the image of Odessa, the face cloth. And as we continue to red pill ourselves with this, Tucker, you have the pollen that matches it. You have the textual records that match it. Eusebius, we have these other wonderful early Christian historians who are talking about this face cloth.

• 1:00:21Tucker Carlson?

  When's the first written reference to it?

• 1:00:22Speaker 02

  Udo Eusebius, the great church historian, three, uh, four, early fourth century.

• 1:00:28Tucker Carlson?

  Early 300s.

• 1:00:28Speaker 02

  Right. 325 AD is Council of Nicaea, so it'd anti-date that. So, early, early 300s.

• 1:00:34Tucker Carlson?

  Okay, so.

• 1:00:36Speaker 02

  And he's bishop of Eusebius. And keep in mind, what is Eusebius?

• 1:00:39Tucker Carlson?

  Wait, but hold on, but just so as a, okay, so we know this has existed for at least 1800 years.

• 1:00:47Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 1:00:49Tucker Carlson?

  So, um, that's

• 1:00:50Speaker 02

  The written record.

• 1:00:51Tucker Carlson?

  Kind of, the written record shows it. So that's kind of not in dispute.

• 1:00:54Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:00:55Tucker Carlson?

  So if this were a forgery, it would have to have been a forgery at least as early as the fourth century, the 300s.

• 1:01:02Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 1:01:04Tucker Carlson?

  And so that right there kind of tells you, like, if modern science can't replicate this.

• 1:01:09Speaker 02

  Good point.

• 1:01:10Tucker Carlson?

  Probably not possible in 320 AD.

• 1:01:13Speaker 02

  Right. It's not, incredibly not.

• 1:01:16Tucker Carlson?

  Okay, so I didn't know that.

• 1:01:18Speaker 02

  No, nobody does. And because all this has been suppressed.

• 1:01:21Tucker Carlson?

  I was told by Reader's Digest in the 70s. No, I'm serious. I first.

• 1:01:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:01:25Tucker Carlson?

  Strange Stories and Amazing Facts. It was a Reader's Digest book that I read in 1980 in summer camp. And I read about this. And I'm like, this amazing thing. And photographic negative, but we know it's a product of the Renaissance or the late Middle Ages.

• 1:01:37Speaker 02

  False.

• 1:01:39Tucker Carlson?

  But there was already a written record of it going back to the fourth century.

• 1:01:44Speaker 02

  The greatest historian of the early church, Eusebius, who I was, I was gonna mention it. He's in Caesarea. He has a library. We don't know the sources he had, but he had an incredible library.

• 1:01:53Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:54Speaker 02

  So he's standing on the shoulders of historians before him. And so this is a longstanding historical tradition in the church. One of the things that's interesting to me, and one of the things I had to get over as I began studying the shroud, Tucker, is I thought it was a Catholic relic. Now, we need to, again, I want to just hammer on this because you have a lot of Protestants that watch your program and a lot of Christians who think, oh, that's just a Catholic relic. I'm not interested in the Catholic Church, therefore I'm not interested in the shroud. The Catholic Church did not take control of the Shroud of Turin until 1983. Two years of probate court, the last King of Savoy bequeaths the shroud to the current Pope, who was Pope John Paul II at the time.

• 1:02:35Speaker 02

  And after two years of probate court, finally, the Catholic Church becomes the custodian of the shroud in the 1980s.

• 1:02:42Tucker Carlson?

  So it was in private hands.

• 1:02:44Speaker 02

  Family.

• 1:02:45Tucker Carlson?

  So you said it was in eastern Turkey for 900 years. Where?

• 1:02:49Speaker 02

  In Edessa, which is, which is eastern Turkey. It was a stronghold of the Christian movement as it was escaping the, but then when the Muslim invasion started, and again, the seventh century, it escapes to Constantinople and then Athens, and then beyond that, as I mentioned.

• 1:03:06Tucker Carlson?

  It keeps moving west.

• 1:03:07Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 1:03:08Tucker Carlson?

  As the Ottoman Empire rises.

• 1:03:09Speaker 02

  Totally.

• 1:03:09Tucker Carlson?

  And Islam sweeps over.

• 1:03:11Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:03:11Tucker Carlson?

  The land of the Bible.

• 1:03:14Speaker 02

  Islam killed the bishops, the bibles and the buildings.

• 1:03:17Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:17Speaker 02

  And so it's escaping that. So it's amazing, the embarrassment of riches we have from an artificial standpoint. And then when you actually look too, there's something else we haven't touched on. The iconography, the early Christian art, Tucker, I mean, is remarkable. On my social media, we created a AI image. My friend Doug Powell and me, Doug gets all the credit. He's an amazing artist. He imported the information of the face of the crucified man and compares it with the icon, pantocrotter, Lord Overall, which is at the, currently at St. Catherine's monastery, where it's been since the sixth century. This is an icon of Jesus. It's famous.

• 1:03:59Speaker 02

  When he put those two images, the face of Jesus in the shroud and the icon pantocrotter in Sinai, he put that into mid-journey and created an AI rendering of what Jesus would have looked like. It is so moving. It's powerful to look at.

• 1:04:12Tucker Carlson?

  It's interesting, the face of Jesus on the shroud before us. Even at this distance, it's recognizable as the Jesus from antiquity, from the artistic representations of Jesus all the way up until George Floyd became Jesus in 2020.

• 1:04:30Speaker 02

  Not the gay looking Jesus of the medieval era. And I really mean that if you look at Jesus depictions in the medieval era, it's a very effeminate Jesus, no facial hair, weak, small, a white Jesus. That's not what we have reflected. So again, if we were a hoaxer in the medieval era, we would have created the Jesus of our time, which is this effeminate Jesus. No, what do we have in here? We have a man's man, a long haired man. A man, you know, we know Jesus walked 20,000 miles in his ministry. If you just add up his trips to Jerusalem and his public ministry, Jesus being about 30, according to Luke's Gospel, when he begins his ministry, Jesus was walking all the time. There was no Ubers or rideshare apps. He was pound for pound, a strong man, a physically fit man.

• 1:05:14Speaker 02

  And that's why he could probably take the brutality that he endured as well.

• 1:05:20Tucker Carlson?

  That's such a, that's just so interesting though. But the face is distinctive and the face is reflected through Christian art going back a long way. Like if you just show me that, that face, I'd say, oh, that's Jesus's face.

• 1:05:34Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 1:05:35Tucker Carlson?

  So the question always was like, well, how do we know what Jesus looks like? And this is the answer.

• 1:05:38Speaker 02

  Yeah. And so all the icons, what we call them is all the iconography, all the icons of Jesus, there's over 200 of them. They seem to have the same source material. And when you compare it to the shroud, it's like they all trace the face of Jesus off the man of the shroud.

• 1:05:52Tucker Carlson?

  Wild.

• 1:05:53Speaker 02

  And not only that, you have the numismatics. This is the study of coinage from the ancient times. And you have all these Byzantine coins that look just like the image of the face of the man of the shroud.

• 1:06:04Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 1:06:05Speaker 02

  So like, what are all these people looking at if the shroud was invented? You know, like the liberal scientists want us to believe in the liberal Bible scholars who are apostate, you know, in the 14th century.

• 1:06:15Tucker Carlson?

  So that's the claim.

• 1:06:16Speaker 02

  The claim is based on one fact, the carbon dating of 1988 that you brought up, 1260 to 1390 is what they wrote on the chalkboard in October of 1988, that the carbon dating said.

• 1:06:28Tucker Carlson?

  So let's get into that in some detail, if you don't mind.

• 1:06:31Speaker 02

  I would love to.

• 1:06:32Tucker Carlson?

  So everybody remember, so I miss, I guess I misremembered. I was told it was probably fake in 1980, but it was, you're saying was not till 1988?

• 1:06:41Speaker 02

  October 88.

• 1:06:42Tucker Carlson?

  October 88, there was a carbon date, radiocarbon dating of the shroud itself.

• 1:06:48Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:06:49Tucker Carlson?

  Before you debunk it, if you wouldn't mind just explaining who did that?

• 1:06:53Speaker 02

  Right. So the agreement was, again, the Catholic Church did not take control of the, of the shroud until the mid 80s. First, if you don't mind, could I just back up to 1978, Tucker, to the original scientific research? So, I mean, this is amazing, which I'm glad we have this time. In 1976, and I'll get to, I want to set the context, two Air Force Academy professors, Eric Jumper and John Jackson, use a machine that was developed to study the effects of the nuclear bomb called a VP8 image analyzer. It's a brightness map, and they would use that to scan the impact of the nuclear bomb. So that's what the machine is. These are not pastors, these are not theologians, these are professors

• 1:07:36Speaker 02

  at the Air Force Academy. They get an image of the Shroud of Turin, likely the Henri 1930s image that C.S. Lewis had in his bedroom, and they put it through the VP8 image analyzer. And they realized there is a 3D, there are 3D information encoded in the Shroud of Turin. No other picture does that. I want to make sure this sets in. There's 3D information.

• 1:07:59Tucker Carlson?

  What does that mean?

• 1:08:00Speaker 02

  There's like a holographic topography brightness map of the man of the shroud that looks like you're looking at the surface, you know, geography, topography of, of man.

• 1:08:12Tucker Carlson?

  There's like depth?

• 1:08:13Speaker 02

  There is depth, there's 3D, the way they said it analytically, there's 3D information encoded in the image of the crucified man. And when they put pictures of their grandchildren through it, it was just smeared 2D images. So no other image does this. So that VP8 image analyzer, you can go on YouTube and watch it done, is what gave rise to what's called the Shroud of Turin Research Project, the scientific STURP team, which consists of 33 scientists, 26 who went to Turin. Italy, they had five days, they had 120 hours to study the shroud. Keep in mind, the Savoy family allowed this, not the Catholic Church. This is controversial, but I don't believe the Catholic Church would have ever allowed the shroud of Turin to be researched.

• 1:08:56Speaker 02

  And that's not my saying, that's Barry Schwartz, who was the documenting photographer who photographed the shroud in 1978. It was the private family, the Savoy's, the House of Savoy, who allowed this research team, 33 scientists, to study the shroud for five days. Okay, so they, they took four years. They didn't go on Twitter, didn't exist. They didn't go on social media, didn't exist. They took four years to publish all of their findings. And I use, I haven't used this word yet until this point in our interview. The STIRP team, these 33 scientists, by the way, Roy Rogers says, give me 15 minutes in the scientific method and I'll prove it's a hoax. He wasn't saying that after 15 minutes of studying the shroud. They all thought they

• 1:09:38Speaker 02

  had a free trip to Italy. They were in the lobby, Barry Schwartz, one of the original STIRP teams, and I met many of them, sadly, many of them are now dead. But they're meeting over drinks in the lobby of the Italy Hotel in Turin, which is a beautiful city to visit. And they're all joking that they have a free trip to Italy to debunk this hoax. No one was saying that a few days later. So these 33 scientists publish and they prove, this is the word I'm going to use, it's proven. The shroud is not a work of art. It is not a manmade image. They can't tell you how it's made, but they proved there's no pigment, there's no dye, there's no paint. They cannot explain how the image is there, but it is not manmade. So for the Christians out there, or,

• 1:10:18Speaker 02

  or religiously minded people who think that like we're, we're, we're violating the second commandment right now, looking at this, we're not violating the second commandment, Tucker, so we can be at ease.

• 1:10:28Tucker Carlson?

  What's the second?

• 1:10:29Speaker 02

  Is you shall not worship a graven image. A graven image is by definition, a manmade object, a handmade object. The shroud is not manmade. It's otherworldly. So we're not violating the second commandment. So that allows.

• 1:10:43Tucker Carlson?

  And what's otherworldly about it? The 3D?

• 1:10:46Speaker 02

  That the image, here's the cool part about the shroud. I believe we're looking at the moment of Jesus's resurrection ultimately. All of this conversation leads that something powerful happens on that first Easter morning. It's electromagnetic radiation that's so powerful. We don't have this amount of watt power on earth. Forty billion, literally forty billion watts of energy, but it happens. It's pick power. It's not like the power when you flip on, it took me a while to learn this. It's almost like a cold energy because it happens so quickly in a twinkling of an eye.

• 1:11:23Tucker Carlson?

  It doesn't evaporate.

• 1:11:24Speaker 02

  It doesn't. That's what the labs, the labs could heat up and essentially tattoo the shroud, but it would, it would burn up instantly. It would scorch. This didn't scorch. It was, it was the pulse rate, which was so, and I know we're getting deep, but it's important to be nuanced in this conversation and precise. The pulse rate power, forty thousand billion watts, traveling at one fortyth of a billionth of a second, we believe is that moment that Jesus body is resurrected. And that's what leaves this image.

• 1:11:52Tucker Carlson?

  But whatever it was, it was a process that.

• 1:11:56Speaker 02

  Chemically changed the fiber rules in a point two depth, which is surface level to leave this image.

• 1:12:06Tucker Carlson?

  And that cannot, just for the fifth time, that cannot be applied with a brush?

• 1:12:09Speaker 02

  No, it can't be duplicated.

• 1:12:13Speaker 02

  And it hasn't been. One man in Britain offered a million pounds to anyone who could replicate the shroud and no one's taken him up on the offer.

• 1:12:21Tucker Carlson?

  So if we have a written record of the shroud going back to the fourth century, how were scientists, scientists allowed to say that it, if we know it existed because contemporaneous sources described it, then how, how were they allowed to say it was a Renaissance?

• 1:12:38Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:12:38Tucker Carlson?

  Creation?

• 1:12:39Speaker 02

  Well, how are they allowed to say anything that's unfactual? They're liars and they hate truth and they hate God.

• 1:12:45Tucker Carlson?

  Well, yeah, aware of that, but like just on logic grounds.

• 1:12:49Speaker 02

  It's.

• 1:12:50Tucker Carlson?

  How could, I don't know, did anybody say, well, wait a second, we've been, you know, someone in the 320s wrote about this.

• 1:12:57Speaker 02

  Right. Well, they don't know that, honestly, scientists, they don't read these truths. They don't read Christian history. Most, you know, most media people have never read the Bible. They don't even.

• 1:13:05Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah, but if they're studying the Shroud of Charn, you'd think they would have some grounding in the Shroud of Charn.

• 1:13:09Speaker 02

  Right, right, exactly.

• 1:13:10Tucker Carlson?

  So, um, so they do radiocarbon dating. This was the headline from 88, I guess.

• 1:13:14Speaker 02

  Right, that it's a, so that, that, so thank you. So that was the scientific launch to the, so then in the mid, in the late 80s, um, they, thank you for bringing me back. It's agreed upon that seven laboratories would do blind research, carbon dating of the shroud. And the scientists who studied it said, whatever you do, don't take the sample from the fringes because the shroud has been repaired. There's two things we're looking at, Tucker, that it took me, again, a minute to, it took me a minute to learn all this. The, there's these parallel, those lines, those are burn marks, those are scorch marks. These 16 triangular shapes, those are patches. The shroud survives a fire in

• 1:13:54Speaker 02

  1532. The nuns stitched it up with a, with a backing cloth and they also, many.

• 1:14:03Tucker Carlson?

  Where was the fire?

• 1:14:04Speaker 02

  Uh, this was in Chamberry, France, 1532, before it moves to Charn in 1578. So it survives this fire. It's doused. The, the shroud has survived at least three fires. And so there are also water stains. You can see those water marks as well on the shroud. This is what's amazing. Like if this was a work of art, it would have diluted it. The image would have smeared or vanished. None of that happens. The, the image is still, as you just saw with the classic invert on my phone, very apparent. And so it survives all of that, but the, but it, it did come in contact. I mean, millions of people have likely touched this shroud. I mean, it would, it would be brought out for baby baptisms. That upper right corner would be cut off. Like if I really loved you, Tucker, I would give you a piece of the shroud to take home with you after having dinner with me, if

• 1:14:48Speaker 02

  you visited me in one of my cath, my, my castles. I mean, so it's known that aspects of the shroud were given out even for indulgence. So in the top left, you can see with the naked eye, anyone who pulls up the shroud can see it's, it is a contaminated area of the shroud. It's dark. It's been touched a lot. It's the fringes of the shroud. And so it's, there's an invisible weave there that many great scholars believe that was patched. And so the scholar said, whatever you do, don't carbon date the corners of the shroud because it's been so contaminated. It's a contaminated sample. Get in the middle of the shroud and carbon date those samples. So what did this community do? These seven labs that were supposed to carbon date it,

• 1:15:31Speaker 02

  actually only three labs did. No one ever answered why seven labs didn't do it. It wasn't done blindly. Three labs, Tucson, Arizona, Zurich, Switzerland, and Oxford, England, carbon date the shroud. What part did they take? The upper left-hand corner that any non-scientist can see as a contaminated sample. And they carbon dated that. Well, it's a patch. Exactly. Thank you for noticing that. Exactly. Are you, you're talking about the? Very top left. That's a different color. Right. It's dark. It's, that is what they carbon dated. And then ironically, the

• 1:16:08Speaker 02

  British Museum suppresses the data, the raw data of the carbon dating for 29 years. Only in 2017, through a French attorney who I'm going to be with very soon, very soon at the International Shroud Conference in St. Louis, I encourage people to check it out. The French attorney, through the equivalent of a Freedom of Information Act, finally got the raw data released for the carbon dating. And what did they find? The sample that was used to carbon date it has cotton within the sample, not fine linen. The rest of the shroud is fine linen. That's indicative it was patched. So this whole bias towards the shroud is based on bad science and suppressed science, by the way, 29 years suppressed.

• 1:16:53Speaker 02

  I don't know that there, was there cotton in Europe? Or the, or the Middle East? Yeah, there was in Europe because they would use it for patchwork, these invisible weaves, these seamstresses. No, right. But 2000 years ago. No. Yeah.

• 1:17:10Speaker 02

  This was fine linen. We don't have any other shrouds with cotton. This is the patchwork that was done in medieval Europe to protect the shroud, to preserve it. And so that is what the carpet, so if we're stacking up all of the evidence for and against the shroud, we're in the middle of presenting a voluminous amount of evidence for the authenticity of the shroud and that it is indeed Jesus's burial cloth. And we have one bit of evidence to deny the shroud, this erroneous carbon 14 day.

• 1:17:39Tucker Carlson?

  Has anyone ever carbon dated the linen?

• 1:17:42Speaker 02

  No. No, it's not been allowed to be dated since.

• 1:17:48Tucker Carlson?

  Well, I don't understand how you could carbon date what's obviously a patch.

• 1:17:53Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:17:54Tucker Carlson?

  That I can see from here.

• 1:17:55Speaker 02

  Well, we weren't even made aware of what was dated until the data came out.

• 1:17:59Tucker Carlson?

  So they knew that there was cotton in the sample, which just immediately disqualifies it.

• 1:18:03Speaker 02

  Exactly. It's a contaminated sample.

• 1:18:04Tucker Carlson?

  And they knew that and they hid it for almost 30 years?

• 1:18:07Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:18:08Tucker Carlson?

  We're sure.

• 1:18:09Speaker 02

  Welcome to Shroud of Turin Research. Yeah. And Ray Rogers, the chemist who said, give me 15 minutes in the scientific method, debunked it in a scientific journal and then sadly died a month later of cancer and his debunk of the carbon dating got no traction. So I'm happy to bring it up on your program and give him all the credit.

• 1:18:25Tucker Carlson?

  So why has, why not just take, I mean, it's kind of a significant question, right?

• 1:18:30Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:18:30Tucker Carlson?

  If it's 2000 years old, it kind of.

• 1:18:34Speaker 02

  Well, because the Catholic Church is afraid of it. And the Catholic Church has still never come out in support of the shroud. Are you aware of that? Like they, they, they're ambivalent about it. They're indifferent about it. They, they're all, and I was just in Turin. So I'm thankful for everyone there who welcomed me. I met all of the scientists, my friend Enrico, the chemist who, the shroud is now currently kept in what's called a reliquary, a little, it's the exact size of the shroud. The company, this is fascinating information. The company that creates all of the materials for the International Space Station is based in Turin. That same company created the box that preserves the shroud.

• 1:19:07Tucker Carlson?

  Where is it? In a church?

• 1:19:09Speaker 02

  It's, it's, it's in the cathedral of St. John the Baptist in this reliquary, this box. You can, you can walk in and see it today, but it's a covered box and it's 99% argon. Gas because the two enemies of the shroud right now are light and oxygen. And so they're preserving it. So the Catholic Church has no interest in educating people about the shroud. Again, I'm thankful that you're having me on.

• 1:19:31Tucker Carlson?

  I don't understand why.

• 1:19:33Speaker 02

  Their only interest is in conservation. So they're conserving the shroud right now. The shroud hasn't been on display in a since 2015 publicly. We don't know when it will be on display again, and yet it's this key to the whole message of Christianity. I mean, it is the death, burial and resurrection in an artifact. Nothing else does that outside of the Bible, except the shroud.

• 1:19:54Tucker Carlson?

  I'm confused. Why would a Christian church want to hide what appears to be physical proof

• 1:20:03Speaker 02

  Of the resurrection.

• 1:20:04Tucker Carlson?

  Of the core story of its religion.

• 1:20:06Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:20:06Tucker Carlson?

  I what's the answer?

• 1:20:08Speaker 02

  I wish I knew.

• 1:20:11Tucker Carlson?

  Who makes that decision?

• 1:20:12Speaker 02

  The Pope. So the technically the Pope is the custodian of the shroud. So.

• 1:20:17Tucker Carlson?

  And that's because.

• 1:20:18Speaker 02

  It was left to the Pope, not the Catholic Church. And I was there during Conclave, which was an interesting experience.

• 1:20:24Tucker Carlson?

  But I just don't, it doesn't seem to make any sense. Do you think they're worried that it would turn out to be fake?

• 1:20:30Speaker 02

  Right. I think so.

• 1:20:33Speaker 02

  I can't say I don't know what's in their mind.

• 1:20:35Tucker Carlson?

  But just to be clear, the, the, so far as you know, the shroud itself, the actual linen cloth has never been radiocarbon dated, just the patch.

• 1:20:45Speaker 02

  Just the upper left corner, which is a contaminated sample. So it was the patched sample, not a fine linen sample.

• 1:20:54Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah. So not the real thing.

• 1:20:55Speaker 02

  Correct. And that's not just me. That's Paulo de Lozro. That's Bruno Barbaris. I mean, there's Ray Rogers. I would encourage people to study these scientists.

• 1:21:03Tucker Carlson?

  Is there any way I doesn't radiocarbon dating destroy the sample?

• 1:21:07Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 1:21:07Tucker Carlson?

  Right. So I mean.

• 1:21:09Speaker 02

  I mean, 25% of CR14 dating is thrown out anyways. Like, so my area specialty is paleography and codecology, how we, how we date Bible manuscripts and we date Bible manuscripts through paleography, not through carbon dating. We date it through handwriting styles to get a date range for roughly a hundred years to date Bible manuscripts. We don't do that because, to your point excellently, it destroys the, the actual artifact.

• 1:21:33Tucker Carlson?

  Is there any other way to date it?

• 1:21:34Speaker 02

  Yes. In fact, it's been dated. That's the thing. Again, thank you so much for asking these questions, Tucker. It has been dated in four other scientific ways that conclusively all show that it's a first century artifact. We have breaking news on your show. Wide-angle X-ray scattering out of the Institute of Crystalography in Rome has shown that the shroud has been getting old. It's been decomposing. It's been degenerating for 2,000 years. They took a sample of a shroud from Masada that's conclusively dated to 8070, and they compared the shroud of Turin using wide-angle waxes, wide-angle X-ray scattering. This is the Institute of Crystalography. And what they found is that the samples have both been getting old at

• 1:22:18Speaker 02

  the same time for 2,000 years. So it's not been getting old for 700 years. It's been getting old for 2,000 years. There's another study done. Linen is made from flax, and it has a substance called vanillin in it, vanillin. And it takes hundreds, if not thousands of years for there to be no trace elements of vanillin in the fine linen. Guess how much vanillin there is in the shroud of Turin? Zero. So if it was 700 years old, there would still be traces of vanillin chemically. There's no vanillin in the shroud. So I don't want to bore you with these details, but they're very important.

• 1:22:56Tucker Carlson?

  They're not boring at all.

• 1:22:56Speaker 02

  There have been other scientific studies that have been suppressed that can, all of the other studies, to answer your question, have proven that the shroud is 2,000 years old from a scientific standpoint.

• 1:23:09Tucker Carlson?

  I think it's pretty wild that the authorities, the British Museum, is that what you said?

• 1:23:14Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:23:15Tucker Carlson?

  Would hide relevant data.

• 1:23:18Speaker 02

  Suppress it for 29 years. I mean, the professor-

• 1:23:21Tucker Carlson?

  Why? How can you do? How is that science? How? I don't understand.

• 1:23:25Speaker 02

  One of the lab officials, Tucker, I mean, this is all, I mean, if people just read for themselves and think for themselves. I mean, one of the professors who wrote on the chalkboard 1260 to 1390 was given a $5 million endowed chair right after this announcement in 1988.

• 1:23:43Tucker Carlson?

  By whom?

• 1:23:44Speaker 02

  By his cabal that was backing him.

• 1:23:48Tucker Carlson?

  Huh.

• 1:23:49Speaker 02

  So again, people need to follow where the evidence leads. And again, I'm following forensic science. I'm following the iconography. I'm following, I mean, the blood samples alone, the hematology. If we wanted to fake the shroud, do you realize we'd have to kill someone? We would have to get blood, pre-mortem blood, and then we would have to stab them in the heart and get post-mortem blood and translucent pulmonary edema and smear that. I mean, and then we'd have to know that there are certain plants that only bloom in Jerusalem in April. We would then have to get, we'd have to know the provenance of the shroud. I mean, there's over 30 things a hoaxer would have to know to fake the shroud.

• 1:24:25Tucker Carlson?

  And then you'd have to apply it in some unknown fashion that cannot be replicated even now.

• 1:24:30Speaker 02

  And then we would have to know, how do we change two microns deep, so surface level? And, you know, every, so we have a traveling exhibit right now that we're doing, where I have 50 artifacts that show these things through infographics. And we have panel 13 in our traveling, who is the man of the shroud exhibit, shows each fiber, each thread has around 250 to 200 fibers. So you think about .2 microns of each fiber of each thread. I mean, that's how superficial the image is. We couldn't fake that. No one can. We don't have the technology to do that.

• 1:25:07Tucker Carlson?

  I just, I'm fixated on the idea that the custodians of the science around this at the British Museum, which is the most famous museum in the world, whose, whose job is to search for the truth, that's what science is, the pursuit of truth, that they would hide facts.

• 1:25:25Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:25:25Tucker Carlson?

  And mislead the public on purpose. So that, but I guess I shouldn't be surprised because this is a religious artifact.

• 1:25:31Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:25:32Tucker Carlson?

  That speaks to the veracity of the world's greatest religion, which has many opponents.

• 1:25:36Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 1:25:37Tucker Carlson?

  So it does raise questions about other.

• 1:25:42Tucker Carlson?

  Archaeological finds that are relevant to Christianity and the big one, of course, are the Kumeraan Scrolls, the Dead Sea Scrolls, found right after the Second World War by a shepherd.

• 1:25:54Speaker 02

  1948, a Bedouin.

• 1:25:56Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah, a Bedouin shepherd boy throws a stone into a cave, hears this, something pottery breaking, goes up there and all these jars with these scrolls in them. That, of course, was the same year that Israel became a nation, 1948, and they become the custody, or some of them become the custody of the Israeli government. And they're written right around the time of Jesus, maybe a little before, correct me if I'm wrong on the facts.

• 1:26:19Speaker 02

  250 B.C.

• 1:26:20Tucker Carlson?

  250 B.C. This monastic community called the Kumeraan Community in Kumeraan.

• 1:26:24Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:26:25Tucker Carlson?

  And, and there, you know, many portions of what we refer to as the Old Testament, at least that's what we've been told. But then I've always wondered, like, these are in the custody largely of a government, and they slow rolled. I mean, they could just, like, take pictures of every single fragment and put them on the internet.

• 1:26:43Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:26:43Tucker Carlson?

  And anyway, there are a lot of questions, but my main question to you, I think you know something about this, is do we have all the Kumeraan Scrolls, like, that are in custody? Are they available to the public and to scholars?

• 1:26:57Speaker 02

  No, because they keep coming to light. I mean, there's the Chirogoniza fragments. So there's also Dead Sea Scrolls outside of the Dead Sea, if that makes sense. So like, there's the Chirogoniza fragments. There's, this, this brings up a great question. I mean, the antiquity of all artifacts is sketchy, to be clear. And, you know, when you look at the great artifacts from history, how people come into control of these artifacts, there's a lot of money involved, there's a lot of corruption involved, candidly.

• 1:27:23Tucker Carlson?

  But could it be, is it plausible, or is there any evidence that scripture from the Kumeraan cache, the Dead Sea Scrolls, has been suppressed?

• 1:27:36Speaker 02

  Oh, certainly, absolutely.

• 1:27:37Tucker Carlson?

  Certainly?

• 1:27:38Speaker 02

  There's, there's absolutely ways in which, all, I mean, there is a demonic hatred towards anything biblical. I mean, I've, not just in the Dead Sea Scrolls community, I mean, I've seen this with all biblical fragments. There's, there is a hyper skepticism towards biblical fragments, that framework, a worldview, that we don't foist on anything else, except biblical fragments.

• 1:28:02Tucker Carlson?

  You know, as long as they're available to the public, I'm okay with that.

• 1:28:05Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:28:05Tucker Carlson?

  As long as people can, you know, have the information, decide for themselves. But I, my concern is that they're not available to the public.

• 1:28:14Speaker 02

  Well, I worked in the Griffith Paprology Lab in Oxford, which is formerly known as the Sackler Library. They took the Sackler name off it.

• 1:28:21Tucker Carlson?

  They did, yeah.

• 1:28:22Speaker 02

  But when I was there, it was the Sackler.

• 1:28:23Tucker Carlson?

  They're killing a lot of people, yeah.

• 1:28:25Speaker 02

  So now it's just the Ashmolean. So in the Griffith Paprology Lab, I mean, we have a half million fragments that have not been categorized. They've not been catalogued. So, I mean, I say this as one who does this. I mean, yeah, there are biblical fragments that have not been brought to light.

• 1:28:39Tucker Carlson?

  Why?

• 1:28:40Speaker 02

  Well, I mean, it's a great-

• 1:28:41Tucker Carlson?

  How hard is it to take a picture of them and put it on the internet?

• 1:28:43Speaker 02

  Exactly, and there are great people doing it. I mean, my friend Dan Wallace at the Center of Studying New Testament Manuscripts, their entire aim is to photograph as many biblical texts as they can and to make them available. So there are great groups out there that are doing it. But the hoops they have to jump through with these libraries and where these manuscripts are located-

• 1:28:59Tucker Carlson?

  Why would it be controversial to take, you know, a 2,000-year-old fragment of scripture, take a picture of it and upload it on the internet? Why would that be? Why would someone want to prevent that?

• 1:29:11Speaker 02

  My, I can only speak to my experience. And so many of the paprologists who I've worked with, so many of the, those are people that work with the papyri. So biblical fragments are papyri first. And then that was the original work of the scripture. And then, of course, scrolls. Honestly, so many of them-

• 1:29:27Tucker Carlson?

  So papyri made from plant, papyrus plants that grow in wetlands?

• 1:29:31Speaker 02

  The early church was innovative. It used something called a codex. It did not take scrolls from Jews. It, it wanted to have this book form with writing on the recto and verso, the front and back of each page. And it was cheap. It was inexpensive. It could be hidden, unlike these scrolls that were, I mean, I have Jewish scrolls. They're, they're beautiful, but they're heavy. They're, they're hard to transport. They're only written on one side. You had to unroll the whole thing.

• 1:29:55Tucker Carlson?

  And they're made of animal skins?

• 1:29:56Speaker 02

  Right, parchment.

• 1:29:58Tucker Carlson?

  Parchment would be?

• 1:29:59Speaker 02

  It bovine. They're all bovine. They're animal, they're calf.

• 1:30:02Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah, okay. Um, so-

• 1:30:07Tucker Carlson?

  But any of this stuff is not, I mean, like, what would be the justification for keeping it from the public?

• 1:30:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, I mean, so much of it comes out of the Enlightenment movement of Europe. I mean, coming out with what we called higher criticism, the German scholars, the height of German scholarship in the 1800s, that Jesus didn't exist. If he did, he was probably gay with a mortgage.

• 1:30:30Tucker Carlson?

  No, I get it. I get it.

• 1:30:32Speaker 02

  And then you have this Pontius Pilate didn't exist. And so, so much of that influenced modernity in a way that, I mean, has wreaked havoc on all of our div colleges.

• 1:30:41Tucker Carlson?

  Sure, but I'm just saying now, 2025, if you have a bunch of scrolls that are found in a cave in 1948 that speak directly to, you know, the world's great religions, is, how can a government be allowed to hide those from?

• 1:30:58Speaker 02

  Well, you're immediately accused of being a sensationalist. I've been ridiculed and attacked for bringing the shroud to light. I mean, you're called a popularizer. I mean, this is a very high view, hyper skeptical community that catalogs biblical manuscripts. All you have to do is go to Society of Biblical Literature with 5,000 Bible scholars to see how crazy some of these people are.

• 1:31:19Tucker Carlson?

  I'm sure.

• 1:31:19Speaker 02

  There is a hatred towards truth. I mean, the man who I defend in my thesis, I write about this in my book Body of Proof, I've spent three years studying the physical bodily resurrection of Jesus. I've written a 93,000-word Ubeli Frans Gashista, History of Resurrection Belief in the Judeo-Christian Motif. And I come to my Viva, where in England it's pass fail. So if you fail your PhD Viva in England, you can never do a redo again. You get what's called an M. Phil, and there's no do-overs. So I come to my defense, Tucker, and I have a Bible scholar who did not believe in the miraculous, did not believe in the historicity of the resurrection. And he looks at me and he says, Jeremiah, do you actually believe the resurrection happened? Or is that just imaginative storytelling?

• 1:32:02Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah. Well, that doesn't, that doesn't surprise me at all. You know, that people who, I mean, how many Episcopal priests believe in God?

• 1:32:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, none.

• 1:32:11Tucker Carlson?

  None. No, I know some who do, but like, the minority. Yeah, that doesn't shock me that they would, you know, that corruption exists. It's the suppression of information. It's Wikipedia that drives me crazy. It's gatekeeping information that prevents the public and interested parties, researchers, from even knowing. That that information exists like that is so sinister.

• 1:32:38Speaker 02

  I'm a victim of it. I mean, I was taught that the shroud was a Catholic relic and there was no science behind it at all. I mean, I was taught that at the Intellectual Jerusalem that is Oxford. I mean, so I'm a victim of this. I understand it completely. And I guess I'm numb to it, Tucker, that it's my world. I've been in it professionally in the Academy since 2009. It's just a miracle if truth actually gets out. And that's why I'm so grateful for your program.

• 1:33:05Tucker Carlson?

  Do you have hope that there will be further study of the shroud? Or do we not need any?

• 1:33:11Speaker 02

  I'm doing all I can to make that happen. This is changing people's lives, this truth, because when we look at this mystery, it actually reveals the message of Christianity, God's love for us, and that He sent Christ to die in our place and raised from the dead. That's the gospel. That's the good news. And that this event actually happened in history. Jesus physically bodily rose from the grave, and there are great reasons to believe that. I have another artifact I want to hand you, though, Tucker.

• 1:33:36Tucker Carlson?

  Yep.

• 1:33:38Speaker 02

  I want you to hold the replica of the spear. So this is amazing. This is a replica. It's there's a weight to it. Now, you mentioned that they did not break Jesus's legs, but let's make sure he's really dead. So they take this spear, this lance, and they stab Jesus according to John's Gospel. And remember, John's Gospel, this is not a scientific or medical journal. It says that blood and water came out of the body of Jesus. Jesus is stabbed between rib five and six, and we see that reflected on the shroud with the postmortem type AB blood that pools just above that triangle, right? Parallel with rib five and six. And you're holding in your hand the spear that would have

• 1:34:23Speaker 02

  inflicted that punishment on Jesus's dead corpse by the Roman executioners.

• 1:34:30Speaker 02

  Damn.

• 1:34:32Tucker Carlson?

  And so the spear likely had an iron tip on it.

• 1:34:34Speaker 02

  Exactly. And it punctures about three centimeters wide. And again, the scripture said Isaiah foretold it by his stripes were healed, by his stripes were vindicated. And we see that reflected in the spear, the lance wound that Jesus body, and we see that reflected on the shroud, which is just fascinating to think about.

• 1:34:55Tucker Carlson?

  Last question, are there other physical artifacts? Extant that you're satisfied are genuine, whose providence is knowable, that point to the historical reality of Jesus?

• 1:35:13Speaker 02

  Oh, absolutely. We have an embarrassment of riches of artifacts, archaeology. This is the beauty of Christianity. This is the beauty of our faith, Tucker, that our faith intersects with archaeology where I often say that, and I say this in body, prove archaeology is Christianity's closest cousin. What's amazing is-

• 1:35:30Tucker Carlson?

  What extent can Christians, I mean, because all this is taking place in a non-Christian country?

• 1:35:34Speaker 02

  Absolutely. And well, I mean, I know atheist Jews who are archaeologists, and they use six sources to make sure their archaeological sites exhibit verisimilitude, that they're digging in the right place. And you've probably heard of these sources, Tucker. Are you ready for this? These are atheist or agnostic Jewish archaeologists in the land of Israel. There's around 100 archaeological sites at any one time. Most of them are secular, completely secularist, but they still use six sources to make sure they're digging in the right spot. Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, the book of Acts, and Josephus. So if the critical archaeologists are going to use our sources because they're so good, I'm going to use them too.

• 1:36:17Tucker Carlson?

  But, I mean, why should we, I mean, if you have people who are,

• 1:36:23Tucker Carlson?

  you know, opposed to Christianity, you know, is there oversight? Like, are there, do we know that historical information isn't being suppressed?

• 1:36:33Speaker 02

  No, I mean, there's, there needs to be more integrity to it, for sure.

• 1:36:37Tucker Carlson?

  Are there people who aren't attached to that government who are on the archaeological sites watching the stuff?

• 1:36:43Speaker 02

  There are. I have great friends who are there who have incredible credibility, like my archaeologist friend Scott Stripling. He's the lead digger at Shiloh, or what the rest of the world calls Shiloh. He's in season five. So there's great archaeologists out there doing great work, but they're they're fewer and far between. That's why we need more more people to be to do what we do.

• 1:37:02Tucker Carlson?

  Trum, I thank you.

• 1:37:03Speaker 02

  Thank you, Tucker, for having me. Love your program. Love you.

• 1:37:06Tucker Carlson?

  And this is, it's a horrifying device.

• 1:37:10Speaker 02

  Thanks. Thank you.

• 1:37:15Tucker Carlson?

  We want to thank you for watching us on Spotify, a company that we use every day. We know the people who run it, good people. While you're here, do us a favor. Hit, follow, and tap the bell so you never miss an episode. We have real conversations, news, things that actually matter, telling the truth always. You will not miss it if you follow us on Spotify and hit the bell. We appreciate it. Thanks for watching.