ROLLUP: Is SBF Killing DeFi?? | Aptos Launch Down Bad | Ethereum Censorship Heats Up | Reddit Onboarding Millions

3rd Week of October, 2022 ------ 📣 Push | Try the Communication Protocol of Web3 https://bankless.cc/Push ------ 🚀 SUBSCRIBE TO NEWSLETTER: https://newsletter.banklesshq.com/ 🎙️ SUBSCRIBE TO PODCAST: http://podcast.banklesshq.com/ ------ BANKLESS SPONSOR TOOLS: ⚖️ ARBITRUM | SCALING ETHEREUM https://bankless.cc/Arbitrum 👯 DESO | DECENTRALIZED SOCIAL BLOCKCHAIN https://bankless.cc/Deso 🦁 BRAVE | THE BROWSER NATIVE WALLET https://bankless.cc/Brave 📡 TRUEFI | CRYPTO FINANCIAL HUB https://bankless.cc/TrueFi 👾 SEQUENCE | ALL-IN-ONE PLATFORM https://bankless.cc/Sequence ⚡️FUEL | THE MODULAR EXECUTION LAYER https://bankless.cc/fuel ----- Topics Covered 0:00 Intro 2:10 Push https://bankless.cc/Push 4:12 MARKETS 4:14 BTC Price 4:20 ETH Price 5:21 ETH/BTC 6:25 Total Crypto Market Cap 6:41 30 Year Fixed Mortgage Rates Hit 7.15% https://twitter.com/GRDecter/status/1582525803849711618 10:23 US01Y Driving Entire $500T Global Finance System https://twitter.com/saylor/status/1581691051592454144 11:41 The Burn Continues https://ultrasound.money/ 14:18 Euler ATH https://twitter.com/DefiLlama/status/1582456499204259841 14:25 Alpha Leak https://youtu.be/S18KEgxG60I 14:57 Music NFTs Are Real? https://twitter.com/tokenterminal/status/1583045759402139648 20:55 Regulating Crypto…DCCPA & SBF https://twitter.com/alliancedao/thread/1582800340520312833 https://twitter.com/jchervinsky/status/1582712466001129473 28:00 SBF’s Thoughts on Crypto Regulation https://twitter.com/SBF_FTX/status/1582835426116575235 https://www.ftxpolicy.com/posts/possible-digital-asset-industry-standards 29:30 RSA Take https://twitter.com/RyanSAdams/status/1582842277948362753 34:30 SBF vs. Community https://twitter.com/iamDCinvestor/status/1582864821241794560 https://twitter.com/scott_lew_is/status/1582452902500499456 https://twitter.com/scott_lew_is/status/1583105661159632897 38:20 Aptos Debut Bomb https://twitter.com/aptoslabs/status/1582085109016014849 40:10 ‘Aptos is Broken’ Thread https://twitter.com/ParadigmEng420/thread/1582121408548651009 43:25 Community Takes https://twitter.com/iamDCinvestor/status/1582671611836387328 https://twitter.com/cobie/status/1582168143715536896 https://twitter.com/sassal0x/status/1582162466867277824 46:30 Ethereum Censorship 46:45 51% of ETH Blocks OFAC Compliant https://www.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/y413q8/in_the_last_24hrs_51_of_eth_blocks_were_censored/ https://www.mevwatch.info/ https://www.coindesk.com/tech/2022/10/14/censored-ethereum-blocks-hit-the-51-threshold-over-the-past-24-hours https://twitter.com/basileSportif/thread/1581906143538221058 https://twitter.com/VitalikButerin/status/1582019760539471878 58:25 ETH 58:27 Flashbots Reveals New Version of Its Key Ethereum Software https://www.coindesk.com/tech/2022/10/14/flashbots-reveals-new-version-of-its-key-ethereum-software/? https://www.coindesk.com/tech/2022/10/14/flashbots-reveals-new-version-of-its-key-ethereum-software/ https://twitter.com/phildaian/status/1582873972475310081 1:00:55 zkEVM Proof Merging https://twitter.com/zksync/thread/1582088277951062016 1:03:11 Uniswap on 8 Chains https://twitter.com/Uniswap/status/1580996750180900865 1:04:27 NFTs 1:04:30 Buy a House On-chain https://thedefiant.io/house-sold-as-nft 1:08:28 Reddit Onboarding Explosion https://techcrunch.com/2022/10/18/redditors-have-created-millions-of-crypto-wallets-to-buy-nft-avatars/ 1:11:05 REGULATION 1:11:10 EU Countries Must Be Ready to Block Crypto Mining - Commission https://www.coindesk.com/policy/2022/10/18/eu-countries-must-be-ready-to-block-crypto-mining-commission-says/ 1:12:50 MISC 1:12:55 Cosmos Security Vulnerability Uncovered on IBC https://cointelegraph.com/news/cosmos-co-founder-says-a-major-security-vulnerability-has-been-uncovered-on-ibc 1:13:42 BNY Mellon Digital Asset Custody Platform https://www.marketsmedia.com/bny-mellon-launches-digital-asset-custody-platform/ 1:14:42 RELEASES 1:14:45 dYdX Credit Card Deposit https://twitter.com/antoniomjuliano/status/1582067580285505538 1:15:40 OPCraft https://dev.optimism.io/opcraft-autonomous-world/ 1:17:27 JOBS https://pallet.xyz/list/bankless/jobs 1:20:34 TAKES 1:20 35 BTC & ETH Worth Less https://twitter.com/rleshner/status/1582125611052851200 1:22:20 Bankless Bigger https://twitter.com/TrustlessState/status/1580578258822713345 1:22:58 Tom Emmer https://twitter.com/RepTomEmmer/status/1582915646157131779 1:23:20 How to Reg Capture https://twitter.com/DrNickA/thread/1543589492409466881 1:27:00 What David’s Bullish On 1:29:15 What Ryan’s Bullish On 1:31:28 MEME of the Week https://twitter.com/nickwh8te/status/1582450228350709760 1:32:30 Closing & Disclosures 1:32:48 Moment of Zen https://twitter.com/MasonVersluis/status/1583149433881255940 ——— Not financial or tax advice. Do your own research. https://www.bankless.com/disclosures

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:02Ryan Sean Adams?

  Hey, Bankless Nation. Happy 3rd Friday of October. David, what time is it?

• 0:06David Hoffman?

  Ryan, it's the Friday Bankless Weekly Rollup, where we cover the entire weekly news in crypto, which is always an ambitious endeavor, yet we persevere nonetheless. Into the frontier with coffee, with your coffee, with your Friday morning coffee.

• 0:18Ryan Sean Adams?

  David, before the show, you told me you had too much coffee. How much is too much for you, man?

• 0:21David Hoffman?

  3 cups.

• 0:23Ryan Sean Adams?

  3 cups? So is that what you had before recording this?

• 0:26David Hoffman?

  Yeah.

• 0:27Ryan Sean Adams?

  And that's like before 1:00 PM?

• 0:29David Hoffman?

  Yes, that's 3 cups before 11:00 AM.

• 0:31Ryan Sean Adams?

  How do you know it's too much?

• 0:33David Hoffman?

  I... Yeah, you just kind of, you just know it. You just feel a little bit jittery, yeah, a little bit manic, you know? You know, people know.

• 0:43Ryan Sean Adams?

  I'm on my 7th cup, David.

• 0:44David Hoffman?

  That is insane. That is insane. I would die.

• 0:47Ryan Sean Adams?

  I think.

• 0:48David Hoffman?

  I would be, I would have to like sit down on the ground and just wait for that to pass.

• 0:53Ryan Sean Adams?

  Sorry, 7th so far. I shouldn't limit myself. The day is still young. Yeah, I might have a problem. Anyway. Happy Weekly Rollup. Just enjoy 1 cup of coffee, if you will. We're not encouraging more than that. Just 1 with your Weekly Rollup. David, we got a lot of hot topics this week. Number 1, SBF, that is Sam Bankman-Fried, the billionaire, super billionaire, founder of FTX. He's got some ideas on how to regulate DeFi. David, I don't love a lot of these ideas. How about you?

• 1:18David Hoffman?

  No, no, I don't, I don't remember seeing him asking the rest of DeFi about thoughts about things. He's kind of going rogue on this one. Following SBF, Aptos, the newest Layer 1 on the block from ex-Meta employees. Launched, but also flopped? We'll talk about that. Ryan, what are we coming in 3rd?

• 1:37Ryan Sean Adams?

  Ethereum censorship. It's been a hot-button topic. We did that episode with Justin Drake, but it is increasingly a hot-button topic, particularly around relayers. We're going to talk about what relayers are, flashbots, all of these things. And the big question, I think, for the Ethereum community is, are we in a critical state? Or is this a nothing burger? Do we have to sound the alarm or not? So we'll get into all of these things. As always, make sure you like and subscribe wherever you are listening to, wherever you are watching. That gets us up to the top of the charts. David, before we get in... We have a message from our friends and sponsors at Push. Push Protocol. David, this is an app that I know, love, and I use.

• 2:20Ryan Sean Adams?

  The way you activate this app is you just enter, you log in with your wallet address. And what you can do is subscribe to alerts, very handy alerts. I don't know how many times I have woken up in the middle of the night being like, oh, my God, am I about to get liquidated? My maker like-

• 2:36David Hoffman?

  How many times, Ryan?

• 2:38Ryan Sean Adams?

  Like, well, not so much this cycle-

• 2:40David Hoffman?

  Zero times for you.

• 2:41Ryan Sean Adams?

  But I will tell you, no, in the original cycles-

• 2:44David Hoffman?

  Sure, first cycle, yeah.

• 2:45Ryan Sean Adams?

  2018, 2019, oh, things were getting pretty tense. And then also my ENS names, for example, like, when do they renew? You need to know that. There's nothing on-chain that will let you know that, except for Push. You can opt into notifications about ENS, about your collateral requirements, about whether you are in the money or out of the money on a Uniswap liquidity pool. There's literally hundreds of different alerts you can sign up for. David, what do you like about this app?

• 3:10David Hoffman?

  Well, as the metaverse, with the thing we're building that Ethereum is going to be this scaffolding skeleton of, builds out, we need Push notifications to go and, because that's, what do you do when you wake up in the morning, Ryan? You look at your phone.

• 3:22Ryan Sean Adams?

  I check my phone.

• 3:23David Hoffman?

  Yeah, right. You get your Push notifications. So the metaverse is going to need something like Push to notify people of shit going on in the metaverse. And so you can go and check them out at push.org. If you are interested in receiving Push notifications or pushing Push notifications to your users.

• 3:40Ryan Sean Adams?

  David, I got one in there for, flag me when ETH is under $895, because that way I can outbid you and get in lower if it happens this market cycle.

• 3:50David Hoffman?

  Yeah, well, I don't think there's a, you have to sign in for a DeFi app to get notified of the DeFi app that wants to notify you.

• 3:56Ryan Sean Adams?

  No, they actually, no, it's actually off-chain stuff, too. They have like price alerts in here, too.

• 4:01David Hoffman?

  Oh, cool.

• 4:01Ryan Sean Adams?

  On-chain or off-chain. You can even get alerted with your favorite crypto publications, like Bankless France. New post from Bankless France. Yeah, pretty cool. All right, tell us about market. Speaking of price, what's Bitcoin doing this week?

• 4:14David Hoffman?

  Nothing, not really anything. Started the week at $19,150-ish dollars, ending the week at $19,150-ish dollars. So flat, super flat.

• 4:24Ryan Sean Adams?

  I'll take it.

• 4:25David Hoffman?

  Yeah.

• 4:26Ryan Sean Adams?

  Better flat than down.

• 4:27David Hoffman?

  Yeah.

• 4:27Ryan Sean Adams?

  How about ETH?

• 4:28David Hoffman?

  ETH, also flat, $12,800 or $12,080 currently, and that's where it started this week.

• 4:34Ryan Sean Adams?

  Is this another crab market? Is this like the summertime?

• 4:36David Hoffman?

  Yeah, so when we recorded the last weekly roll up, it was like when we had like nuked down to like $1,200. And then as soon as we got done recording the weekly roll up, we bounced right back up to $1,300.

• 4:46Ryan Sean Adams?

  Correlation?

• 4:47David Hoffman?

  The $1,300 like number for Ether and like $1,900 number for Bitcoin is like super just a magnet, I guess. Yeah, sticky.

• 4:55Ryan Sean Adams?

  Sticky right now until something new happens.

• 4:57David Hoffman?

  Yeah.

• 4:58Ryan Sean Adams?

  What is that new thing gonna be? It's gotta be macro, can't be in crypto.

• 5:00David Hoffman?

  Yeah, it's gotta be macro.

• 5:01Ryan Sean Adams?

  There's not much. We're post-merge. What's the next exciting news in crypto? The halving?

• 5:06David Hoffman?

  That's the thing, there's like a bunch of exciting things in crypto. So no one can like have, no one can focus on one meme because there's like three different things and they're all like smaller than the merge.

• 5:14Ryan Sean Adams?

  A lot of smaller building going on. No, no like main chain, uh, major events here. How about the ETH to Bitcoin ratio?

• 5:21David Hoffman?

  It's flat, it's flat.

• 5:22Ryan Sean Adams?

  Also flat.

• 5:22David Hoffman?

  Surprise.

• 5:24Ryan Sean Adams?

  And that's actually not bad for ETH in, in the bear market though. I mean, you'd expect during the bear market, uh, much more loss in the ratio. We're not seeing it.

• 5:32David Hoffman?

  In history, yes. If you, if you look back to history, yeah.

• 5:36Ryan Sean Adams?

  This is history, look at this.

• 5:37David Hoffman?

  Yeah, yeah, that, that ratio looks so good. The problem is the ratio looks so good over like a, almost coming up on three-year time horizon now. So in order for that to like continue it looking good, like it's just gonna take 1.5 more years for that to like keep on going up. Anyways, long-term focus, long-term focus.

• 5:55Ryan Sean Adams?

  You know what I saw this week, David?

• 5:56David Hoffman?

  What?

• 5:57Ryan Sean Adams?

  You have hashtag Bitcoin in your Twitter bio right now. I saw that.

• 6:02David Hoffman?

  There's a story behind that.

• 6:04Ryan Sean Adams?

  Do you have this story? Is this a story that is disposable?

• 6:08David Hoffman?

  No, it's not.

• 6:09Ryan Sean Adams?

  Okay, Bitcoin shills paid David, that's what it means.

• 6:11David Hoffman?

  Yeah, Bitcoin shills, yeah.

• 6:13Ryan Sean Adams?

  Is that what happened? I think this is a private bet among friends that he made. That's my guess, just reading the body language here. And maybe he lost, okay. There are worse things to lose. Uh, it's pretty funny though. David, David the Bitcoin bull. Um, global crypto market cap, what are we looking at? Are we under a trillion?

• 6:28David Hoffman?

  Uh, under a trillion, 956 billion, 956 billion.

• 6:32Ryan Sean Adams?

  Okay, that's all. Is that also flat in the week?

• 6:34David Hoffman?

  Yes, basically. It was a flat week.

• 6:37Ryan Sean Adams?

  Summary, flat week. Neither up nor down. Housing mortgage rates are going up, though. This is a tweet from Guinevere. Breaking 30-year fixed-rate mortgages hit 7.15%. Also breaking the housing market. It feels that way. 7.15%. I've never seen rates this high in my probably lifetime. My adult lifetime.

• 7:01David Hoffman?

  So what does this mean for me? I'm a crypto person who bought a house during the bull market.

• 7:07Ryan Sean Adams?

  You own a house. Good job. Okay, can I ask you? Did you buy that house or do you have? Is this a personal question? Do you buy that house or do you have a mortgage?

• 7:15David Hoffman?

  I have a mortgage.

• 7:16Ryan Sean Adams?

  You have a mortgage?

• 7:17David Hoffman?

  Yes, I have a mortgage.

• 7:18Ryan Sean Adams?

  What rate did you lock into that mortgage?

• 7:19David Hoffman?

  2 point something.

• 7:21Ryan Sean Adams?

  Hell, yeah, David. All right, this is my take on that tweet, all right? Okay, actually, I don't have that tweet up, but here's what I said. Locking in a 3% fixed-rate mortgage or under is the new "I bought Bitcoin under $300."

• 7:35David Hoffman?

  Okay, but I also bought the top of the housing market, though. So like, which one am I? Am I happy or sad? I don't know.

• 7:43Ryan Sean Adams?

  Well, right now mortgages are going up, but house prices aren't dropping. I don't know if you've looked at the Zillow rates for your for your house. I bought it. I bet it's probably the same or at the level that you bought it. In terms of like market value.

• 7:57David Hoffman?

  So I'm happy.

• 7:59Ryan Sean Adams?

  You're happy, and the best thing about that is, not almost who cares, but like, you locked in a 2 point what percent?

• 8:06David Hoffman?

  2.7, 2.9?

• 8:08Ryan Sean Adams?

  2.7, 2.9%?

• 8:11David Hoffman?

  I think that's right.

• 8:12Ryan Sean Adams?

  You're printing money, man. Like, congratulations. All right, we're inflating at like 7 to... This may be the best financial decision you've ever made.

• 8:21David Hoffman?

  That's probably true. It's not even including buying Ether at $80.

• 8:26Ryan Sean Adams?

  No, we can't include that. Other than Ether, this is David's best guess. So far, we don't know this. But, okay, but you locked in a interest rate on a 30-year fixed-rate mortgage at 2.7%, 2.79%. And money, like inflation, is 8%. So what's your delta, man? Maybe 5% per year.

• 8:46David Hoffman?

  Oh, good for me.

• 8:47Ryan Sean Adams?

  Thank you, Uncle Sam. Thank you, like, the dollar. You actually, like, in high inflationary environments, you actually want to have a lot of fixed-rate debt, because it means you don't have to pay it. Very nice to be a debtor in these, in these times for mortgages. But, let me tell you, who is screwed, David?

• 9:04David Hoffman?

  Everyone who is younger than me.

• 9:07Ryan Sean Adams?

  Gen Z, totally. I don't get, do you know how, like, the meme of, which is true, like millennials getting screwed? Like, 2008 financial crisis, and then you can't afford a house, and how many millennials are, like, not able to, like, afford this? This is, um, look at this. Value, beauty, and charm. This is a four-bedroom, two-bathroom house, somewhere in the burbs. 19, what year? 1950-something? 54? Rent is $87 a month.

• 9:34David Hoffman?

  Yeah, but that also has a ton of, like, loss and value of the dollar. Like, how much? You could get a, you could get a cheeseburger for, like, 50 cents back then.

• 9:43Ryan Sean Adams?

  This is, this is also true. There's inflation baked in, but it's also true that home prices, as an asset, like homes themselves, have risen far faster than inflation, like, something like 3X, 4X. And so, I thought millennials were screwed, but like, Gen Z, now, how are you supposed to afford a house when house prices are so expensive, and like, your, your interest rates are like 70%? What's, like, the monthly payment look like on that?

• 10:09David Hoffman?

  Yeah. Well, isn't every single generation further away from the boomers, just more, collectively more screwed?

• 10:15Ryan Sean Adams?

  I, it's seeming that way.

• 10:17David Hoffman?

  Yeah, I think that's kind of how it works. Like, the further you are away from the boomers, the harder it is.

• 10:22Ryan Sean Adams?

  This is how it's seeming so far. Absolutely brutal, but you know, the rates keep increasing. This is a tweet from our friend, Michael Saylor. If you flew an aircraft carrier like this, you would A, stall, B, rip the wings off, or C, crash and burn. And he is showing a chart of the US one-year government bond yield. This is bonds. This is the yield of bonds. This is kind of showing you what the Fed is doing, the central bank. And for those of you that can't see, listening to the podcast, we see in 2018, kind of a brief bump up, and then massive volatility spike all the way downward to zero, COVID spike, and then this crazy ascent. David, you've flown planes before. Is it possible to take off like this? Is that how planes work?

• 11:06David Hoffman?

  Yeah, you need a massive engine to be able to do that.

• 11:08Ryan Sean Adams?

  Like a rocket ship?

• 11:09David Hoffman?

  Yeah, you need to be in like a, yeah, a jet. You need to be in a very fast lean jet.

• 11:15Ryan Sean Adams?

  Okay, so validate this. If you flew an aircraft like this, would you rip the wings off, David?

• 11:21David Hoffman?

  You would stall. You would stall is what you would do. You would run out of energy. Yeah.

• 11:26Ryan Sean Adams?

  This is crazy. I feel like it's the next experiment of the central banks is like, how much volatility can the bond market take before the wings get ripped off?

• 11:37David Hoffman?

  Currently taking more than Bitcoin. Remember that from last week? Yeah.

• 11:40Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, true, true. Meanwhile, tell us about ultrasound money, David.

• 11:44David Hoffman?

  It's super ultrasound, Ryan. I'm so glad you asked. And so last week was the first week that we had a ton of burn. And this week, we also have a ton of burn. I think last week, we're at 5,000 Ether issued since merge.

• 11:58Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yes.

• 11:59David Hoffman?

  Right now, we are at 3,700. Going down.

• 12:04Ryan Sean Adams?

  That's what we like.

• 12:04David Hoffman?

  Yeah, that's what we like to see. And so the current supply of ETH has like peaked out at 120,534,000, was what it was about two weeks ago, and we are now down to 524,000. If we continue on this trajectory, Ryan, in like maybe three, four days, we will actually be below the Ether supply where we were when we merged. And Ether will become Deflationary since the merge. That is awesome. Last year, or last week, we talked about how this was because of this like new Ponzi token Zen Crypto.

• 12:41Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yep.

• 12:41David Hoffman?

  Well, actually, in the last three days, it's been Uniswap V3, OpenSea, and Uniswap V2 as the three largest burners of ETH, collectively burning basically 3,000 Ether above Zen Crypto, still burning 900 Ether, and then ETH transfers burning 800 Ether, Tether transfers bringing 630 Ether. So this is, this is good, real, sustainable bill, uh, burn, not from some Ponzi token. And we are still going down. So, uh, and just to recap, at the peak of issuance, when the, when the supply of Ether was the highest, it was something like 0.22% net inflation per year. We are all the way down to 0.03% net inflation per year.

• 13:23David Hoffman?

  And if this burn continues, man, we are going to be deflationary since the merge. Wow.

• 13:29Ryan Sean Adams?

  That's cool. What I like about the burn leaderboard too is like, it's all of these use cases of ETH as money. A lot of the Uniswap trading pairs are actually ETH. ETH transfers, number three, burning a lot of ETH, using ETH as money. I guess ETH is money after all, maybe even, maybe even, I'm not going to say it. I am going to say it.

• 13:47David Hoffman?

  Ultrasound money.

• 13:49Ryan Sean Adams?

  Maybe, we're almost there.

• 13:51David Hoffman?

  We're almost there.

• 13:52Ryan Sean Adams?

  It's kind of, it's my favorite, this will never not be my favorite website. I can't imagine a better, like, what's better than this?

• 13:58David Hoffman?

  It's great.

• 13:58Ryan Sean Adams?

  Name me a better website on the internet, David.

• 14:00David Hoffman?

  Oh, if we, if we wait one more block, we're going to watch it go down below 3,700. Wait for it.

• 14:05Ryan Sean Adams?

  You really want to do.

• 14:05David Hoffman?

  Wait for it.

• 14:06Ryan Sean Adams?

  Every 20 seconds, 21 seconds. You block every six seconds.

• 14:10David Hoffman?

  Oh, I did, I only went down a little bit.

• 14:13Ryan Sean Adams?

  Antichromatic. We'll edit this part out. What's happening with Euler?

• 14:19David Hoffman?

  Euler, Euler TVL hitting a new all-time high at almost $300 million. Euler, a new money market on the scene, like the likes of Compound, Ave, Rari. But a little bit more governance minimized, a little bit more algorithmic. We recently did a show with them in AlphaLeak. Coincidence that it's hitting a new all-time high of TVL? I don't know. But if you want to learn all about Euler, I did an AlphaLeak with Michael Bentley to learn all about it. Disclaimer, Ryan and I are angel investors in Euler.

• 14:48Ryan Sean Adams?

  We are, and that token is now on the market, though.

• 14:51David Hoffman?

  Yes, that token is now on the market, yeah.

• 14:52Ryan Sean Adams?

  Angel Investor, a long time ago.

• 14:54David Hoffman?

  Yeah, that was one of the first ones we did.

• 14:56Ryan Sean Adams?

  It took that project a while to come out. Token Terminal, what are they doing? Okay, actually, this is music NFTs. And I know you've got a take on music NFTs, but I'm feeling some bullish vibes from you, not only David, but it's other members of the Bankless team talking about music NFTs.

• 15:14David Hoffman?

  Right.

• 15:14Ryan Sean Adams?

  Is it showing up in the numbers yet?

• 15:16David Hoffman?

  It is showing up in the numbers yet. A monthly cumulative side-by-side fees is what we're looking at. Basically, to date, $3 million has been earned by artists paid for by fans. So $3 million has been transferred from fans to artists. In my mind, all I'm seeing is $3 million of compensation for creating art. And that's what we like to see. $3 million, not that much. But you have to remember, it actually doesn't take a lot of value transfer to really move the needle versus what something like Apple Music or Spotify does. Like Spotify and Apple Music for like value transfer from fans to artists is like first gear. Where like music NFTs, where if you buy one single music NFT,

• 15:57David Hoffman?

  that that accounts for like, like 100,000 listens is one single music NFT sale. And so that's like, you know, third or fourth gear in terms of efficiency of what you get if you purchase a music NFT. So I know we're on the Bankless rollup. We're used to numbers like hundreds of millions, billions, blah, blah, blah, blah. $3 million is small, but again, it's such, it's such a big order of improvement from what previous web two value transfer platforms provide.

• 16:26Ryan Sean Adams?

  And this is primarily on the sound protocol too, right? sound.xyz, which is where, and David was talking about the, the, the art is actually music. So these are actually not JPEGs, these are MP3s that are selling. JPEGs are the album covers and then like, but, but mainly it's.

• 16:43David Hoffman?

  But it's mainly, it's the music.

• 16:44Ryan Sean Adams?

  It's the sound.

• 16:45David Hoffman?

  It's the music, yeah.

• 16:45Ryan Sean Adams?

  It's all about the sound. Super cool. It's starting to sound, you know, okay, so do you think, let me ask you this. Do you remember JPEGs in 2020, NFTs 2020? Hadn't taken off yet. Right, it was late 2020, but some people on the podcast telling us it was going to be huge. Absolutely, like really big thing.

• 17:02David Hoffman?

  Yeah.

• 17:03Ryan Sean Adams?

  Do you think music NFTs are where JPEGs were in winter of 2020?

• 17:10David Hoffman?

  My take is that music NFTs are not for crypto people. They are for music people, and music people are normies. I don't like JPEGs definitely was a product that like we all like to speculate on just because there's like digital collectibles, right? Very, very adjacent to crypto money is crypto like digital collectibles. I think music NFTs are going to be more for artists and their fans regardless of whether they are crypto people or not. And so I think that that is an invalid question.

• 17:41Ryan Sean Adams?

  An invalid question. So in other words, you think it'll just grow differently.

• 17:45David Hoffman?

  It'll grow, it's certainly it'd be more mainstream.

• 17:48Ryan Sean Adams?

  We saw kind of JPEG sort of start to take shape. Firstly, there were crypto collectors of JPEGs and then it bled into mainstream. And you're saying we sort of skip that step. I think what you're saying is we kind of skip that step. Won't be as many crypto collectors. It'll just start with mainstream instead.

• 18:03David Hoffman?

  Right, because some unknown artists can come in and start making like an NFT collectible thing, but for to sell a music NFT, you have to be a musician and you need to make good music, like no one's going to collect like bad music NFTs probably hopefully. I'm actually, actually I take that back. I could probably see some crypto people figuring that out. But I do think it's just like it's more mainstream than what we've seen previously.

• 18:25Ryan Sean Adams?

  Also kind of a like NFT is kind of a regulatory proof industry. I'm there's always ways for regulation to apply.

• 18:31David Hoffman?

  It's always great for regulation.

• 18:32Ryan Sean Adams?

  So don't let me speak too soon. And yet this is not like as scary as a, you know, non-state money asset as it seems to be for regulators.

• 18:43David Hoffman?

  I agree.

• 18:43Ryan Sean Adams?

  Cool. We got a lot more coming up. SBF wants to regulate DeFi. We're going to talk about that, what his idea of regulation looks like. Also Aptos was a total flop. That's what it sounded like. The newest layer one chain on the block, we'll tell you about that. And Ethereum censorship, is this a problem or a massive nothing burger? We get into that as well. We'll be right back, but before we do, we want to thank the sponsors that made this episode possible.

• 19:06David Hoffman?

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• 19:51David Hoffman?

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• 20:34David Hoffman?

  But also much more than that, because Brave is shipping new features every single month with a mission to make Web3 easier to navigate for its over 55 million users. Wallet extensions are a thing of the past, so get started with Brave's Web3-ready browser today and experience a decentralized web seamlessly without all the clutter. You can download the browser at brave.com/banklist and click the wallet icon to get started. Ryan, is it time to sound the fire alarm about another regulatory thing coming down the pipeline that's going to kill DeFi? The Alliance DAO, the team out of the Alliance DAO, says the DCCPA greatly threatens DeFi innovation. The proposed bill says three things, according to this tweet, the summary tweet, gives the CFTC new powers to regulate spot markets, also forces human intermediation, we don't

• 21:18David Hoffman?

  like that word, intermediation, and also forces projects to sacrifice decentralization. It favors centralizing incumbents and kills startups. Alliance opposes the DCCPA. Ryan, you were paying attention to this while I was gone at DevCon. How big of a deal is this?

• 21:32Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, I was paying attention to this, and I guess, in my mind, there are three things to know about the DCCPA. I have a hard time saying that, but this new bit of legislation actually stands for the Digital Commodities Consumer Protection Act. This is coming out of the Ag, the Agriculture Group Committee in the Senate. Three things I think you should know. Number one, it feels like the US Really wants to do something with crypto from a regulatory perspective. And what I mean is particularly legislators. And also, I think crypto kind of wants them to. We've been asking for more clarity. There's so much ambiguity. We want our legislators to do something. Number two, I've been told this bill actually has a real chance.

• 22:17Ryan Sean Adams?

  There's so many bills about crypto, like hypothetically talked about and batted around. I've been told, David, that this bill could actually pass. Like, it actually might work and it could actually pass during kind of the lame duck session that we have in kind of the winter time period. The last thing, though, I will say, and this is important. You asked the question of, should we sound the fire alarm?

• 22:40David Hoffman?

  Right.

• 22:40Ryan Sean Adams?

  I think the answer is not yet. I know Alliance Dow is kind of doing that in this tweet, but I think the answer is not quite yet. And the reason is, the newest draft of the bill isn't yet public. All right? And so a lot of people are fighting behind the scenes, including people, Blockchain Association, people we've had on the podcast, people that are DeFi friendly. These are lobbyists, these are educators in our legislative, they're fighting to actually make this bill better, make it good. And the fight's not over yet. And so what this tweet is responding to is an early leaked draft version of the bill.

• 23:18David Hoffman?

  A leaked draft version, so not the actual bill?

• 23:22Ryan Sean Adams?

  Not the actual bill. It was a version of the bill from like three weeks ago, is what I've been told. So, and it is true, it has a whole bunch of garbage in it, particularly garbage around DeFi. And the big concern about this earlier draft, I mean, it has good stuff, like it says, "Ethereum Bitcoin are not securities, they're commodities." I mean, that's good, we would all support that, that's the clarity we want.

• 23:44David Hoffman?

  Thumbs up.

• 23:44Ryan Sean Adams?

  But it has some bad stuff, because mainly, DeFi is not even considered. Or worse, in some cases, it's treated the same as C-Fi. This is what the Alliance is saying. They're saying, "Forces human intermediation." They're not even considering the possibility that DeFi is code-based and peer-to-peer. So that is bad. And that's why some critics in these earlier drafts have said, "Look, if..." Something like this passes, bye bye DeFi in the US. Or maybe like bye bye US's role in DeFi. You're going to eliminate yourself from the crypto market.

• 24:18David Hoffman?

  So in what mechanism does it just like? How does that? Can you elaborate on that?

• 24:23Ryan Sean Adams?

  I haven't read all of the details of this particular draft, but it seems to do things like make all DeFi protocols in the US register.

• 24:34David Hoffman?

  Does it just like operate under the assumption that decentralization is actually like impossible? And therefore there's always somebody to register somewhere?

• 24:41Ryan Sean Adams?

  The high level is it seems to operate under the assumption that all DeFi protocols can be regulated and treated the same way as an FTX or a Coinbase.

• 24:49David Hoffman?

  So it's just ignoring the proper.

• 24:50Ryan Sean Adams?

  Register with each state, like go like just the whole same process and apparatus that applies to C-Fi and banks. Well, let's just take that. Of course, it can apply to some code and DeFi protocol and the creators of this code. And that just doesn't work. And that's inherently, I mean, it breaks the system, destroys the credible neutrality of the system. So I guess my take is, and Jake Trivinsky said this, commenting even after this, this tweet that you originally read was posted. There's been some discussion today as to how the bill, this new bill we're talking about affects DeFi. Here's what I said after the Senate hearing on the bill last month. I'm hopeful that it can be amended to treat DeFi fairly, but we'll have to wait and see what the next draft says.

• 25:30Ryan Sean Adams?

  So I guess my take, while you're out, David, my take is following kind of Jake's lead here, right? Like he's working, they're working collectively behind the scenes. There may come a time when it's time to throw up the bat signal and send out the fire alarms. And the bankless community needs to react to this and all of like crypto needs to react to this to either kill it or support it, but we don't know enough yet. So I'm saving that ammo until we know a little bit more. I feel like that's the right approach here. That said, David, there's another story in the midst of this. You want to lead into that?

• 26:06David Hoffman?

  This is not our first rodeo with like undesirable regulation, proposed regulation in Congress. Like the difference here is SBF, Sam Bankman Fried. From FTX is like leading this thing and has been apparently he's been in DC, almost living in DC, working with regulators to get this bill through. And that's kind of the big news here that I've gathered from crypto Twitter and around is that SBF has like just decided to like go on his own and like lead this bill and it's the incentives here that seem to point in that all of DeFi is like semi-regulatable, therefore we might as well do it on like C-Fi rails.

• 26:49David Hoffman?

  And wow, that's really convenient for FTX and SBF. That's kind of been my take here. Is that accurate?

• 26:55Ryan Sean Adams?

  I think some of that criticism might be true. I guess I would say is in the process of this bill's creation, it's been well known that the SBF has been heavily active. He's not the only one pushing for this bill, but he's been an active participant along with

• 27:07David Hoffman?

  The only one in crypto though, right?

• 27:08Ryan Sean Adams?

  No, no, no. There are a lot of DeFi advocates that are involved in this bill.

• 27:12David Hoffman?

  Oh, interesting.

• 27:13Ryan Sean Adams?

  Crypto lobbyists and such like, you know, some of the people that we would, that you and I and probably the bankless community should actually like trust to uphold DeFi rights. They've been also active in this bill and pushing against it. Although I will say rumor with it, like to craft it in kind of an image of what it should be. But I will say SBF has had some, some pretty big influence as well. So he's made massive amounts of political contributions. All of these contributions are public, numbering in the millions of dollars. And also, as you said, he's been active, like he's been there. He's kind of, I don't know, maybe the adult in the room, right? The person who can kind of bridge fintech and that world in the banking world with this new

• 27:56Ryan Sean Adams?

  world, world of crypto and he's, he's got some influence. And, and so, I don't know, it's hard, it's hard to know. Some people are saying like SBF is intentionally trying to sabotage DeFi, right? It's like, to me, you have to kind of wait and see, like, I mean, these could be rumors. We don't actually know, but what SBF did publish yesterday at the time of recording was as promised, he says, this is a tweet, "My current thoughts on crypto regulation." And he writes a post to his credit, open, transparent about His thoughts on a possible digital asset industry standards, right? And he talks about, there's a heading here called sanctions, allow lists and block lists. There's a section about hacks and accountability.

• 28:39Ryan Sean Adams?

  There's a section about asset listing, what's the security, what's not, tokenized equities. There's a section about consumer protections. Generally, the things legislators care about and regulators care about. There's also a section here about DeFi. Okay, so I read this thing yesterday, David, and there are some things that make sense here. And of course, the straw man argument for like, you know, the people might make to, you know, to those in the DeFi community is, oh, you're in DeFi, you don't want any regulation at all, right? No, that's not true. We actually really want clarity, we really want regulation. But do you know what's worse than no regulation? Bad regulation. Yes, bad regulation. If we end up with bad regulation, I mean, these laws get on the book.

• 29:22Ryan Sean Adams?

  They could set the US crypto industry back by like years, maybe generations. Maybe it'll never recover, right? And so I went through this. Here's my response, David. Sam, this is to SBF. This was spicy, this was spicy. With respect, utmost respect for everything you've done in crypto. This absolutely sucks, I said. You're saying DeFi should be OFAC, you're saying on-chain freezes should be normal. You're saying DeFi front-ends need to register as a broker-dealer. No, this is not reasonable. This would eliminate the US from the crypto race. And here's- Sam's advocating for all of those things? Yes, from his, like, if you read this, and we'll include a link in the show notes. There's this section on OFAC.

• 30:04Ryan Sean Adams?

  He says this, "Then both centralized and decentralized applications can query in real time the list of sanctioned addresses to avoid transferring funds to or accepting funds from those addresses." Saying basically, if you're a Uniswap or you're DeFi, and before you let an address do something with your protocol, you have to query the OFAC sanctions list. Is this okay? So he's advocating for application layer censorship. Application layer, OFAC sanctions, correct. Right, okay. Now, he's saying, and he even says this, he's not advocating for validator-level censorship. Right.

• 30:37David Hoffman?

  Yeah, not protocol error, which is something we're about to talk to in a second.

• 30:40Ryan Sean Adams?

  But Uniswap?

• 30:41David Hoffman?

  Right.

• 30:42Ryan Sean Adams?

  Having to basically OFAC check you or not, that is something he's advocating for. What else is there here? Just to back some of these statements up. Talking about on-chain freezes? If there's, if there's kind of like normalizing the idea of being able to, to freeze assets on-chain. I don't possibly the implication is writing that into the, into the code. Obviously, so this would apply to a USDC, but into other assets as well? Maybe validators have this obligation as well? And this one really triggered me. If you host a website that makes it easy for US retail to connect to and trade on a DEX, you would likely have to register it as something like a broker-dealer.

• 31:21David Hoffman?

  Yo!

• 31:22Ryan Sean Adams?

  David, if you host an interface for Uniswap, you gotta be a broker-dealer. You have to go apply for a license.

• 31:31David Hoffman?

  Okay, so going and like, show me the incentive, I'll show you the outcome. Yeah, FTX, big competitive competitor out there is the aggregate DeFi landscape. And so Sam, the guy who's been donating $39 million to political organizations in the Biden campaign, is now saying, hey, DEXs and DeFi should have to register to become a broker-dealer. That's what regulatory arbitrage is. That's legalized corruption. That's what, that's the whole thing we're trying to not do in crypto.

• 32:03Ryan Sean Adams?

  All right, so this is obviously my worry, and I think many of the crypto communities worry. Sam in this thread, and to his credit, SBF was engaging back and forth. Public engagement, people are calling him on this, myself included, others. And he was engaging back and forth. And his point was, hey, if you don't do this, the de facto like is worse. And I'm at least working in this DC to pass something that is better than nothing, better than what we have today. And-

• 32:34David Hoffman?

  Is it?

• 32:36Ryan Sean Adams?

  No, this is terrible. Now, to be clear, I don't want to mix, I don't want to mix this up. Uh, his personal thoughts on regulation. I don't want to mix that up with the, the bill itself. Okay. These ideas are not necessarily in the bill, but this gives you a sense for where his head is. And when I read this, I was just like, oh, we are not here for the same reasons, are we?

• 32:59David Hoffman?

  Right.

• 33:00Ryan Sean Adams?

  You do this, David?

• 33:01David Hoffman?

  Well, that's always been our frustration with Sam.

• 33:02Ryan Sean Adams?

  But like, yeah, but you do this and like, what's the freaking point? You remove all of the credible neutrality of like US crypto and what do you have? You have nothing.

• 33:13David Hoffman?

  And it's gotta be negative EV for, negative expected value for FTX. Because if you like nuke the cool things that make crypto what they are, where does FTX's business come from? It comes from crypto.

• 33:26Ryan Sean Adams?

  Over the long run, I think that's true. I don't know if he thinks maybe there's some money to be made in basically, um, providing the AML KYC type layer. I mean, there could be like, or maybe there's, or I don't know what he's thinking. I, I actually don't understand here, but like this to me definitely has a flavor of, um, well, a crypto banker not sticking up for DeFi's interest, right? Like this is what, like this is not, we didn't ask for this. We don't want this. If, if you're going to participate in lobby in DC towards these ends, like please don't, not on my behalf anyway. I don't want any of this.

• 34:05David Hoffman?

  I request to not have this.

• 34:08Ryan Sean Adams?

  Now, to be fair, he's saying like, if you have feedback, give me a better suggestion. I'm completely happy for the crypto community, the DeFi community to present better suggestions. And like, we will in the future. And I hope people like Sam actually listen to this feedback. Like he might not be in it for the reasons we're in it, but he has to respect like, why crypto is valuable in the first place and not start to erode these values. Um, David, there are some other takes around the community. You want to talk about some of these?

• 34:34David Hoffman?

  Yeah, DC Investor says, "SBF is the most effective value extractor in crypto. He's very transparent in that he wants to siphon value out of your account into whatever causes he claims to care about. Couldn't care less about decentralization." Meanwhile, NPCs here simp and worship him like a hero. Pathetic. Ooh, DC coming in with this spice. Yeah, I mean, so like Sam Bankman-Fried does have this like cult following in crypto. Like, anyone that makes like a billion dollars in crypto is gonna generate a cult following. I think DC here, DC is like saying, "Hey, like, let's not, let's not do that."

• 35:08Ryan Sean Adams?

  Let's not exalt billionaires because they've made billions?

• 35:11David Hoffman?

  Exactly, yeah.

• 35:12Ryan Sean Adams?

  How about this take?

• 35:13David Hoffman?

  Scott Lewis says, "FTX is spending money to push a law through Congress that may force DeFi protocols to operate like centralized exchanges. This proposal is called the Digital Commodities Consumer Protection Act. A better name would be Digital Commodities FTX Protection Act." That's what I was saying when it's like, yes, this is like, okay, like Sam, it's like somebody builds a big entity and then they start lobbying regulation to protect them. I see this take as well. Yes, indeed.

• 35:38Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, I think that is the, the big fear. This is where that number came from. What's this tweet saying, David?

• 35:43David Hoffman?

  Yeah, Sam Bankman-Fried has spent $39.3 million, quote, "buying DC politicians since January." I mean, anyone who's been living in DC lately has, I mean, that's what you would do.

• 35:56Ryan Sean Adams?

  I mean, and here's the thing. I think we actually do need to spend money. The crypto industry does, the DeFi industry does need to spend money and get out votes in order to get politicians working with us. That's just how the system works.

• 36:10David Hoffman?

  But if we're... And I will, I will bring up that Sam Bankman-Fried has promised to donate 99.9% of his wealth or something to effective altruism and give away all of his money. I haven't seen any tweet talking about him doing that. I would like to know if there's been progress on that front.

• 36:26Ryan Sean Adams?

  I mean, he said he's going to do it later. I don't know. I mean...

• 36:29David Hoffman?

  Yeah, so am I. I'm also going to donate 99.9% of my wealth later.

• 36:34Ryan Sean Adams?

  Are you really, though?

• 36:36David Hoffman?

  Yes, I am.

• 36:37Ryan Sean Adams?

  Are you really?

• 36:38David Hoffman?

  No.

• 36:39Ryan Sean Adams?

  Okay.

• 36:40David Hoffman?

  I'm making fun of Sam Bankman-Fried.

• 36:41Ryan Sean Adams?

  I mean, like, I don't know. I mean, I don't judge him on that. I just, you have to wait it. Actually, who else had a take on this? So this is a take from Eric Voorhees responding to SBF. And again, SBF has been under a lot of criticism. I appreciate that he showed up in Washington and that he's like, I appreciate some of what he's doing.

• 36:59David Hoffman?

  He's not doing nothing.

• 37:00Ryan Sean Adams?

  He's not doing nothing, but like, if it results in terrible legislation, like, please just don't do anything. This is Eric Voorhees saying, "You can advocate for effective altruism or can advocate banning 80 million innocent Iranians from the future of global finance. You can't do both. Glorifying OFAC and proposed crypto industry standards is a non-starter." That, to me, is actually like, effective altruism aside, like, I actually think the thing that we're trying to do in preserving and propagating crypto protocols and crypto values, that is a public good.

• 37:38David Hoffman?

  Right.

• 37:38Ryan Sean Adams?

  I mean, that is a service to future generations, and I wouldn't mind more spent on that. I can't tell a billionaire where to spend his money, but like, if the result is, we get something like this, David?

• 37:51David Hoffman?

  Right.

• 37:52Ryan Sean Adams?

  No, thanks, man. No, thanks.

• 37:54David Hoffman?

  I'm out.

• 37:55Ryan Sean Adams?

  Last thing I'll say is the invitation is open to Sam Bankman-Fried.

• 37:59David Hoffman?

  We are in DMs. We are in DMs.

• 38:01Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yes.

• 38:02David Hoffman?

  I'm waiting for him to confirm a week from today.

• 38:04Ryan Sean Adams?

  He said he'd be willing to come on the Bankless Podcast and talk about it, and I think that is the form. Like, you can't have a nuanced conversation over Twitter. Podcast is the form. And we would love for Sam to tell us about his take.

• 38:17David Hoffman?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 38:18Ryan Sean Adams?

  Tell us what he's thinking, respond to some of these criticisms, and we hope he takes us up on that offer. So we will see, my friend. That is that for now. David, can you tell me what the people really want to hear about? And that is the Aptos Layer 1, baby!

• 38:30David Hoffman?

  I just cannot wait to hear about Aptos.

• 38:33Ryan Sean Adams?

  Okay.

• 38:34David Hoffman?

  This shiny new monolithic Layer 1 that's promised to be even faster than all the other previous Layer 1s that have come out, has finally gone to mainnet. So Aptos Autumn is here, this tweet says. Was it actually here? I don't really know, but the news that I heard on Twitter and around is that it's not actually what it was all cracked up to be. So Aptos, it was a Layer 1 blockchain that was built off of the move language, which was developed by the, what was that one Facebook chain? Libra, yeah. So for people that weren't around during the Libra era, Facebook was wanting to make a digital currency, a new, literally a new currency. Yeah, with an ETH killer attached, the whole smart contract platform.

• 39:15David Hoffman?

  Yeah, before like Congress said, "No, Mark Zuckerberg, you can't have a new reserve currency."

• 39:22David Hoffman?

  But anyways, the team behind that has gone off and created Aptos using the move language that Libra was created. It promised to have a maximum ceiling of 100,000 transactions per second. And apparently, I haven't verified this myself because I don't even know how to use Aptos, which is another problem, that the current Aptos TPS is, drumroll, Ryan, four. Four what? Transactions per second.

• 39:52David Hoffman?

  Wow. Yeah. That's not the same. That's less than Ethereum. Okay.

• 39:58David Hoffman?

  Interestingly, while the blockchain seems to not be effective, the tokens have definitely been deployed and sent around to all stakeholders. But there's this, and all this news break broke came from this Twitter account called Paradigm Engineer 420, who tweeted out, "Aptos is broken." And so I'll read some key tweets here. "Aptos promises 100,000 transactions per second in its finalized version. However, the current TPS is somewhere in the four transaction range. It's hard to see how users can even use Aptos right now. I personally cannot find any RPCs worth connecting to or any validators that can send transactions. Aptos team knows something is wrong because between Genesis and 1:30 PM Pacific Time, the Aptos Discord was disabled.

• 40:43David Hoffman?

  Users couldn't chat or ask any questions, kind of like the blockchain. They only recently opened up a few channels, but important channels like dev resources are still closed. The total supply of the APT token is a little bit..." Over 1 billion, however, 821 million is currently staked. This means that over 80% of the token supply is controlled by the team and investors. And there was no airdrop or no other method to earn mainnet Aptos tokens. However, this doesn't account for the remaining 200 million Aptos tokens. Where could those liquid tokens be? Question mark. So they propose some potential answers. Sitting on investors' FTX accounts waiting to dump on retail? Or sitting in investors' Binance accounts waiting to dump on retail?

• 41:26David Hoffman?

  The point is that the nearly entire token supply is going to private parties. There was never a public sale or any method where users could have earned tokens. And then they continue, however, hope is not lost. Sui, another blockchain, is using the move language with arguably better tech. If I had to guess, Aptos knows that Sui will probably succeed in the long term. And they hoped that by front running them on launch, they could gain some sort of advantage. I will wait for the Sui launch, try out a few applications on Aptos and see what would happen. So that is the summary thread that we got out of that. And he takes Ryan.

• 41:58Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, you know, here's the TLDR in this thread too. You are going to get dumped on. The only play I would make on Aptos is a quick farm and dump. This reminds me back to-

• 42:07David Hoffman?

  Not financial advice.

• 42:08Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, well, yeah, just maybe life advice.

• 42:11David Hoffman?

  Goes without saying.

• 42:12Ryan Sean Adams?

  Do you know, so this reminds me a little bit of like 2018 again. And the kind of the promise of another crop of Ethereum killers, 2018 and 2019. And the best advice I kind of learned at that time, that I think now applies to this, to this new group of supposed- This isn't actually an ETH killer, now it's a Solana killer.

• 42:32David Hoffman?

  It's a Solana killer, which is an ETH killer.

• 42:34Ryan Sean Adams?

  Right? Yeah, it's a Solana killer, ETH killer, it's like, and so-

• 42:38David Hoffman?

  Buy the transitory property.

• 42:39Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, but the best advice I could give, not financial advice, life advice, is just try the thing first. Forget about the freaking token. Don't buy a token.

• 42:49David Hoffman?

  Don't, don't focus on the token.

• 42:50Ryan Sean Adams?

  See if it works. Is there anything on there that's compelling? Compare it to your experience on other layer twos and layer ones. Can you do anything on it?

• 43:01David Hoffman?

  Do you know, do you know the most recent valuation of Aptos?

• 43:05Ryan Sean Adams?

  Uh, no. Is it in the billions?

• 43:07David Hoffman?

  $2 billion.

• 43:08Ryan Sean Adams?

  Damn, is that all kind of like private valuation? So VCs-

• 43:11David Hoffman?

  Yes, private valuation stuff. That's the highest number that VCs take.

• 43:14Ryan Sean Adams?

  A pre-launched chain, right? But again, it had the pedigree, it had move, the language, it had the XMeta Facebook team.

• 43:20David Hoffman?

  Oh, boy.

• 43:21Ryan Sean Adams?

  I don't know, man. These kind of narratives are worth a lot. There's some few takes. Here's one from Olaf. Remind me, what's the name of Olaf's firm?

• 43:31David Hoffman?

  Polychain.

• 43:31Ryan Sean Adams?

  Polychain, multiple chains. Olaf is definitely embracing multiple chains.

• 43:35David Hoffman?

  As many chains as possible.

• 43:36Ryan Sean Adams?

  What does he say?

• 43:38David Hoffman?

  Olaf says, "The Aptos token distribution scheme is among the worst designs I've ever seen, and I've seen a lot." And then he gives us the numbers. The foundation, 67.5%, the team, 19%, investors, 13.5%. The only way coins get into, quote, "the community," parentheses, lol, is through arbitrary foundation distributions. Yeah, so the only way that community can get tokens is by buying them. There was some sort of airdrop, I think it was small. It was like, maybe a couple thousand dollars.

• 44:09Ryan Sean Adams?

  Here's the reaction I'm seeing from the community in Olaf Crypto is like, "We're just tired of extractors and rotators."

• 44:14David Hoffman?

  I'm so tired. I'm so tired.

• 44:16Ryan Sean Adams?

  We're exhausted by it. It's a bear market.

• 44:18David Hoffman?

  It's just like, again, you know that one meme of just like, the comic of this guy that goes to like, a bear trap and like, "Bears, this is ridiculous. How are you falling for this?" And then like, it goes to like, some other form of a trap and goes like, "This is so silly. How can you fall for this?" And then like, the last panel would be like, him buying the Aptos token.

• 44:38Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah. I mean, so, DC Investor calls the events of this week, "A near categorical rejection of Aptos by the community." I saw this mainly by the community. Kobe says, "You could tell who bought the seed round because they're tweeting, 'Excited for launch,' rocket ship emoji, instead of calling it Craptos and tweeting about how it already crashed or something."

• 45:00Ryan Sean Adams?

  This is Anthony Sisano, "You just know that 3O's Capital would be shilling the hell out of Aptos if they were still around." He follows that up.

• 45:07David Hoffman?

  That was one of my favorite tweets. It's because you can totally see it happening.

• 45:11Ryan Sean Adams?

  Well, this is the follow-up, was actually, in my opinion, I even enjoyed this more.

• 45:15David Hoffman?

  Oh my god, I did see this.

• 45:16Ryan Sean Adams?

  He's quoting 3O's Capital, "I have a ban in Ethereum, Avalanche, Dyr, Polkadot, Terra, Mina, and Solana, despite supporting them in the past. My new chain is Aptos. All in, baby."

• 45:29David Hoffman?

  Okay, so for the people who didn't get that reference, when Solana, or not Solana, when 3O's Capital was done with their whole super cycle narrative and they were done on the ETH trade, they moved on to the Sol Luna AVAX trade position. So this was in the second half of 2021. And Suzu said, "Yes, I have abandoned Ethereum despite supporting them in the past." And so what Anthony Sodano has done, he's just added every other chain that 3O's Capital also shield Avalanche, Near, Polkadot, Terra, Mina, and Solana despite putting them in the past. That was that reference.

• 45:59Ryan Sean Adams?

  Guys, put your hands up if you are sick and tired of rotators and narratives without the building.

• 46:06David Hoffman?

  Put your hands up.

• 46:07Ryan Sean Adams?

  Right here. I'm tired of it.

• 46:09David Hoffman?

  Come on SpongeBob, put your hands up.

• 46:10Ryan Sean Adams?

  David's tired of it. Oh, yeah, dude, we did even comment on, David's wearing this ginormous SpongeBob shirt today.

• 46:16David Hoffman?

  Yeah, there's a huge SpongeBob on my chest.

• 46:18Ryan Sean Adams?

  It's like five.

• 46:18David Hoffman?

  It's, no, it's meta because it's a sweater of SpongeBob wearing a sweater.

• 46:24Ryan Sean Adams?

  Oh my god, how deep does it go?

• 46:26David Hoffman?

  Yeah, only two layers deep.

• 46:28Ryan Sean Adams?

  Okay, two layers deep. That's pretty good. Layer two. We'll get to layer three later. David, another big thing this week that was a question, not just this week, it's been the last couple of weeks, is this-

• 46:38David Hoffman?

  Been growing, yeah.

• 46:39Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, a growing narrative of this talk of Ethereum censorship. And this comes out of a kind of OFAC compliant relayers, in particular Flashbots. I pulled up a Reddit post, the title of this, and maybe you could explain it to us, is "In the last 24 hours, 51% of ETH blocks were censored and OFAC compliant." What is this? What does this mean? Is Ethereum being censored right now?

• 47:01David Hoffman?

  Yeah, so this is, the 51% here is coming from how many blocks came out of the Flashbots or other OFAC compliant relayers. And that doesn't, and there's a lot of, there's a lot of like stuff packed in there. OFAC compliant, it just means that tornado cash transactions are not in this block. So now that we're on the website, we're actually seeing that 54% of blocks are OFAC compliant, as in 54% of Ethereum blocks do not have tornado cash transactions in them. I'm pretty sure that's the only thing that means OFAC compliant or not. We're using tornado cash transactions-

• 47:34Ryan Sean Adams?

  For now, but OFAC could add whatever it wants in the future.

• 47:37David Hoffman?

  They could add more, more.

• 47:37Ryan Sean Adams?

  It could add, you know, David Hoffman dot ETH if it wants.

• 47:40David Hoffman?

  Yeah, well, and then there's a couple of relayers which are definitely not following OFAC compliance, which are probably outside of the United States. And that's like a very small sliver compared to OFAC compliance. Most blocks are like totally normal blocks. And so there's this big conversation is like, okay, we have all these relayers who, and this is strictly a part of the whole proposer, builder, MEV boost conversation, where people will build blocks for you and then relayers will relay that to Ethereum stakers who are will choose a block and then stake on that. Somebody like Flashbots, the biggest relayer in Ethereum, because they are a US domiciled entity, has said, "Hey, yeah, we're going to follow OFAC and not violate the law, and we're only going

• 48:23David Hoffman?

  to relay OFAC compliant blocks." So this has created a conversation of, is it the Ethereum protocol being censored? Because there's like 54% of blocks being produced are OFAC compliant. Now, there is a huge difference between creating a block versus building on prior blocks. And so we'll call it 50/50. 50% of blocks are OFAC compliant, 50% of blocks are non-OFAC compliant. The non-OFAC compliant blocks are taking, like, comprise of 50% of all blocks added to Ethereum, and then the non-compliant blocks are building on top of those blocks, rather than building on top of the most recent OFAC compliant

• 49:03David Hoffman?

  block. So OFAC non-compliant blocks are making their way into Ethereum easily, and this is not an issue. And so OFAC, so people that want to be OFAC compliant are just adding on to the OFAC non-compliant blocks. So tornado cash transactions are getting into Ethereum.

• 49:19Ryan Sean Adams?

  They just take longer.

• 49:20David Hoffman?

  They take, they take, instead of taking, probabilistically speaking, instead of taking 12 seconds, they're taking perhaps 24 to 36 seconds to get in. We are worried about this getting worse. We are worried about this approaching, as soon as we start to get like 90 to 95% of all blocks are OFAC compliant, then we actually start to be like, "Okay, it is now troublesome to use tornado cash." But not until we get to something like above 95%, would it take like...

• 49:50David Hoffman?

  Perhaps sometimes up to five minutes to get a tornado cash transaction into the blockchain. And so it really only becomes a critical issue when we start to actually get into the extreme saturation. And right now we're 50 50. 50 50, still like a lot, still not good. However, it's been my opinion that this is just a very temporary part of Ethereum's history while we are just post-merge without all this other infrastructure. But that is the conversation going on today.

• 50:17Ryan Sean Adams?

  David, this is a form of weak censorship.

• 50:20David Hoffman?

  Soft censorship.

• 50:21Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, is what Justin Drake would call it. And I would encourage you guys, if you want the full story on this, like the full download on how censorship resistant Ethereum is, go listen to the Justin Drake Bankless Podcast on Uncensorable Ethereum, I think is what it's called. He goes through this exact scenario that's happening right now. And so this is a form of weak censorship, not strong censorship. It's not happening at the validator level, it's happening at the relayer level. And by the way, this relayer job function is set to be eliminated at some point in the protocol. We are no longer going to have relayers post some upcoming protocol changes.

• 50:59David Hoffman?

  Right. And that's a solution that we even have other solutions before we even get to that point too. And so like we are just in this one moment in Ethereum's history where we are at the weakest point of censorship resistance, which is the weeks to months following the merge. This is late lot dot ETH who put out an interesting poll who said, I'm a solo home validator in country A. We are at war with country B and I decide that I'm not going to include donations to their military when it's my turn to make a block. This validator should A, be slash for censoring, B voluntarily be exited, or C be tolerated. And about 41% said be slash for censoring, about 11% said voluntary exit,

• 51:43David Hoffman?

  and 47%, the slim majority, said be tolerated. And that's also what I said, Ryan, I said be tolerated. Because, and I also asked Martin Koppelman here, asked what his answer was because I had a debate back and forth with him about how severe the censorship thing was. Compliment says, ideally, the validator would not even have the option to censor.

• 52:03Ryan Sean Adams?

  Agreed.

• 52:04David Hoffman?

  And then Vitalik responded to that and said, I would say be tolerated, as in allow that person to not include blocks. And Vitalik continues and says slashing or leaking or socially coordinated anything should only be considered for massive reorgs, which was what I was talking about with going back and building on a different chain, even though we know that we already have a good one to begin with. Slashing or leaking should only, or socially coordinated anything should only be considered for massive reorgs of other people's blocks, not making wrong choices about what to put in your own. Any other answer risks turning ETH community into morality police. And I really like this. I think it's, I think I, as a validator, should get to freely choose what transactions

• 52:45David Hoffman?

  to put into a block, so long as I choose the recent, the most recent block to put in. Like, say, for example, I am a religious person and it is, according to my religion, morally wrong for me to include certain transactions of a certain type to, into the Ethereum blockchain. I, and I feel, I feel like I should be able to be included by the Ethereum protocol, and I should feel free to choose whatever transactions I want to include into the Ethereum protocol. I should not be able to dictate what other people put into the Ethereum protocol. So I feel like I should be able to pick and choose. And that is, we'll call that censorship, but so long as there's not one uniform version

• 53:27David Hoffman?

  of censorship and we are all picking and choosing our own particular flavor of how we want to do our own particular censoring, if you open that up to 10,000 validators, there's no canonical version of like, we are doing this, or we have these values. Everyone's transactions ultimately get in, while we also don't censor people's ability to express themselves. That's my take here.

• 53:49Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, I think that makes sense. I think some people are worried, though, David, about like this being sort of a slippery slope. And are we letting, are we making it socially acceptable to get part of the block building process be OFAC compliant? And some of the criticism has been lobbied at Flashbots themselves. So let's remember how much good. Flashbots is done for Ethereum, like save Ethereum's ass, I don't know how many times, right? Just like, we are in a much more censorship resistant place because of Flashbots. And people are saying, well, now Flashbots is undoing that because they're choosing to host a relayer that is censoring transactions. And why don't they turn it off? Truthfully, David, I don't know the answer to why doesn't Flashbots turn off their relay

• 54:34Ryan Sean Adams?

  or not. They might have reasons for this. I have no idea why. I do think that like, Flashbots and Phil Dian and others have literally spent their entire like lives, their entire career, trying to protect. Phil Dian is a hero. Yeah, he's, he's a hero. And so, a little bit of me, the, the back and forth on the social layer, because Phil put out a tweet and he was like, hey, I'm just sick of like, the vitriol. Like, you guys are like, it's kind of toxic. I'm paraphrasing what Phil said. He said it far more eloquently. But like, to me, Phil Dian, this is a little bit like Gotham City complaining about Batman. About Batman? Yeah, it's like, Flashbots and Batman has been protecting Gotham for a pretty long time. There are some times, you don't understand Batman's motives. There are some

• 55:18Ryan Sean Adams?

  times, like, Batman screws things up and actually should be criticized. Like, cause a car crash. Sure. Or like, maybe he actually genuinely screwed up. And we should definitely hold, hold them accountable for this. But like, also at the same time, Batman's a good actor. It's like doing it for Gotham. And I don't know, there's an element to that where I, I feel like we as a community also should have, extend some grace to the builders actually trying to protect against this. So, these are my takes. And long run, David, I am. It's a, on long run, it is a nothing burger. I 100% agree. I think we are going to have a censorship resistant. But like, if you want to make your own call on that, Megless listener, first, listen to Justin

• 56:01Ryan Sean Adams?

  Drake on Uncensorable Ethereum in order to have. Why we made that podcast. We made it. And we made it before all of this. Because we knew it was coming. Yeah. So, anyway, that's, that's what I think you should do. David, what do we got coming up next?

• 56:15David Hoffman?

  Coming up next, we have a new announcement out of Flashbots called something called Suave, which we have some details on. There was an announcement that I actually had to go ping Azu. I was like, "Hey Azu, can you give me the details for this?" And he was like, "No, announcement's coming soon." But then he followed up with some details. So we got those details coming soon. The European Union preparing to ban mining, what's going on over there, and a critical vulnerability found in Cosmos IBC. We'll cover all the details and more. But first, a moment to talk about some of these fantastic sponsors that make this show possible. The reality today is that five corporations control the entire world of social media. They own our names, they restrict our content, they monitor our every move. And their time is up, thanks to our sponsor, DSO.

• 56:56David Hoffman?

  DSO is a Layer 1 blockchain built from the ground up to decentralize and scale social networks. With DSO, you can own your own identity, content, and social graph, and take it with you across hundreds of applications already built on the censorship-resistant DSO blockchain. DSO's storage advantages make it finally possible to build infinite state applications that can efficiently store and index large amounts of content and data fully on-chain. DSO also offers multiple crypto-native monetization primitives for developers and creators, including social NFTs, social DAOs, social tokens, and social tipping. So in order to experience the social layer of Web3, go to deso.com and claim your username. That's D-E-S-O dot com. If you've been listening to Bankless,

• 57:40David Hoffman?

  you know that we're fans of the modular blockchain thesis. The idea that blockchains will separate execution from data availability and consensus, allowing all three to become the best versions of themselves. And Fuel has built the fastest modular execution layer in the industry. By supporting parallel transaction execution, Fuel unlocks significantly faster throughput for the Web3 world. Fuel also goes beyond the limitations of the EVM with its own Fuel VM, which is more efficient and optimized, opening up the design space for developers. And lastly, Fuel brings a powerful developer experience with its own domain-specific language, Sway, and a supportive tool chain called Fork. With Fuel, you can have the benefits of smart contract languages like Solidity while adopting the improvements made by the Rust tooling ecosystem,

• 58:22David Hoffman?

  letting the Fuel development environment go beyond the limitations of the EVM. If you want to learn more, there's a link in the show notes to see how you can get involved with a Fuel network. Flashbots reveals new version of its key Ethereum software. Reads the CoinDesk headline. "Development of Suave," as the project is codename, "has been going on for over a year now." So this has been something that Flashbots has had, I guess, like in their backpocket, ready to deploy, and they're coming out with details now. And so this is what I went to Hazu, and I was like, "Hazu, can you like, help me interpret this and what's going on?" And he said, "Details still coming out soon, but conceptually," he says, "you can think of Suave as the end game of the Flashbot stack: an auction, an encrypted mempool, and a block builder."

• 59:05David Hoffman?

  It sounds like a bunch of censorship-resistant tools.

• 59:09Ryan Sean Adams?

  Encrypted mempool sounds real good.

• 59:11David Hoffman?

  I like, that sounds awesome. "As a user, you will be able to trade on Ethereum through Suave, and any MEV that you create will be captured for you. As a searcher, you will get the perfect environment to trade, including across different chains. And as a rollup, you can connect to Suave to get the benefits of encrypted MEV-aware trading for your users, unlocking MEV auctions for your stickers, and all in a progressively-decentralizing way." So this is why I think like, people are being like, "Flashbots, stop censoring! What are you doing? What are you doing?"

• 59:45Ryan Sean Adams?

  Don't patronize their voice, David.

• 59:47David Hoffman?

  And then Flashbots, like, maybe they don't say anything, but that's because they have this Suave thing, which answers all of the criticisms and claims, maybe not all of them, but is a decent job of fixing a lot of the stuff. And it's called Suave, and it's coming out soon. And so this is coming out, and I think it's going to truly change the conversation of this whole Ethereum censorship thing.

• 1:00:10Ryan Sean Adams?

  I share that take too. And yet also, I don't want to go on the other side of things and just say, "Ethereum community, just trust everyone. Stop caring about censorship so much." Right? At some level, it makes me incredibly bullish that we are getting such a reaction from the community to say, "This is not okay." OFAC, I mean, you go the other direction and like, go sign up for some of SBF's regulation, right? I don't want to do that either. So we've got to strike the right chord and like, I don't know, when in doubt, to me, David, the best thing you can do is, if you see a problem, grab a shovel. Just help out. Rather than be critical, help out.

• 1:00:53Ryan Sean Adams?

  Anyway, that's not, that's not the form for Twitter. Twitter is all about talk.

• 1:00:57David Hoffman?

  Right.

• 1:00:57Ryan Sean Adams?

  Not a lot of actual things to get done. Yeah. What do we got?

• 1:01:01David Hoffman?

  Anyways, coming out of ZK Sync, this is their secret sauce. They have released their secret sauce. There's a lot of people who thought-

• 1:01:09Ryan Sean Adams?

  It's not mainnet yet though, right?

• 1:01:11David Hoffman?

  It's not mainnet, no. But the, the reason why ZK Sync is first to mainnet is because they have this crazy ZK Prover thing that you can prove with a GPU. And this is the, the piece of the puzzle that really completes a ZK EVM. And it's the secret sauce that ZK Sync has that has allowed them to go to mainnet while everyone else is still releasing their test nets. And so ZK Sync tweets out, "Today, we are extremely excited to announce that we have successfully completed Milestone 3, Proof Merging. With the integration of validity proofs," which is like, if you're, if you're talking about an optimistic rollup, that would be a fraud proof, "with the integration of validity proofs, ZK Sync 2.0 is officially the world's first ever ZK EVM running on public test-

• 1:01:55Ryan Sean Adams?

  That's the hard thing, right? The validity proofs are the hard thing.

• 1:01:58David Hoffman?

  That's the thing. Yes. And there were many other teams. I remembered both people out of Arbitrum and Scroll last week, who tweeted out, without naming names, even though they were just basically talking about ZK Sync, "A ZK EVM claims to go into mainnet next week, and by no means will it be a complete thing, because there's still stuff missing. And while ZK Sync and many other Layer 2 teams are all still have much work to do, this was the thing that they thought wasn't present. And ZK Sync is saying that it's present." Now, I am not technically competent to be able to vet this myself. I do not have any idea about how a validity proof is created. But ZK Sync is saying that they got the thing that everyone else says that they didn't.

• 1:02:42David Hoffman?

  And so these are the Layer 2 wars, and they are awesome.

• 1:02:44Ryan Sean Adams?

  I think this is part of the moment of truth. The other part of the moment of truth is October 28th, once the mainnet ships. And we are what, as of the time that this is released, probably seven days away from that?

• 1:02:54David Hoffman?

  Eight or nine days away.

• 1:02:55Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, eight now, seven tomorrow. So, yeah, we'll get to see it soon. And pretty exciting. And just a reminder, David and I are advisors for ZK Sync. We're also investors, incredibly bullish about ZK EVM in general.

• 1:03:10Ryan Sean Adams?

  You can always find all our disclosures information in the show notes as usual, guys. Uniswap is on eight chains, David. I lost track of how many chains Uniswap deployed to. Not just Ethereum mainnet, but eight. And its next one is going to be ZK Sync.

• 1:03:25David Hoffman?

  Mm-hmm. ZK Sync making moves. And so the community voted Uniswap V3 will soon to be deployed on ZK Sync, Uniswap's eighth chain. Sounds like a multi-chain world if you ask me, Ryan. And it sounds like the multi-chain world that you and I were talking about while everyone else was talking about all the alt-layer ones. So I'm just gonna take a quick

• 1:03:43Ryan Sean Adams?

  Well, what are the chains? What are the chains, you know?

• 1:03:45David Hoffman?

  They're all Ethereum EVMs.

• 1:03:48Ryan Sean Adams?

  No, so there's not like

• 1:03:49David Hoffman?

  Arbitrum, Polygon, Optimism, what's the other?

• 1:03:54Ryan Sean Adams?

  Avalanche?

• 1:03:54David Hoffman?

  Now ZK Sync, maybe.

• 1:03:56Ryan Sean Adams?

  They didn't do Avalanche? They did all of the Ethereum-aligned chains? Is that what you're saying?

• 1:04:02David Hoffman?

  Yes, yeah.

• 1:04:04Ryan Sean Adams?

  By the way, I'm really excited about the episode that we're releasing coming up with Dan Alitzer about the app chain thesis.

• 1:04:09David Hoffman?

  Yes.

• 1:04:10Ryan Sean Adams?

  This ties very nicely into that.

• 1:04:11David Hoffman?

  Super hot.

• 1:04:12Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, just teasing that.

• 1:04:13David Hoffman?

  Bankless premium listeners probably gonna get that pretty damn soon here.

• 1:04:15Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, hopefully. You guys will.

• 1:04:16David Hoffman?

  But we have so many podcasts in queue that it's actually gonna come out for Bankless premium subscribers. Probably like 10 to 15 days before we actually release it.

• 1:04:23Ryan Sean Adams?

  Is that a promise? That's a Bankless premium promise David just made on the podcast.

• 1:04:26David Hoffman?

  The Bankless editors are like, "Damn it, David, what can you miss, promise?"

• 1:04:30Ryan Sean Adams?

  How about this?

• 1:04:31David Hoffman?

  This is pretty cool, Ryan.

• 1:04:32Ryan Sean Adams?

  Is it cool?

• 1:04:34David Hoffman?

  Yes. Okay, so as somebody who came from a tokenized real estate startup, this is actually pretty cool.

• 1:04:38Ryan Sean Adams?

  Alright, read it first.

• 1:04:39David Hoffman?

  "Digital real estate platform sells house as an NFT." So you can buy a house on chain. And this is an article out of The Defiant. The way that this works is each home is titled as a limited liability company and is associated with a unique NFT on the Ethereum blockchain. This is how my old startup did it, except we did it with ERC20s instead of NFTs. And we also fractionalized it. The process here is that when the lender, there's a lender involved, approves and funds the borrower's request on teller, the USDC Homes platform uses the funds to purchase the LLC NFT. The NFT is then transferred to a multi-sig wallet that serves as an escrow account. Until the buyer pays back the entire loan and accrued interest.

• 1:05:23David Hoffman?

  So there is also a mortgage and loan application being going on here as well. And this is coming out of this platform called Roofstock, which was just a normal TradFi business. I remember like using Roofstock as like the competitor to go after when we are, we were using our like leveraging like blockchain when they weren't.

• 1:05:41Ryan Sean Adams?

  Were you talking about your previous startup that David used to work with was called RealT?

• 1:05:46David Hoffman?

  RealT, yeah. And then they, but Roofstock has made their own on-chain marketplace. So they are making a, I think that's, that's on-chain is the name, on capital C chain, property marketplace. And so that is pretty damn cool.

• 1:06:01Ryan Sean Adams?

  Okay. Can I, can I take the counter to this?

• 1:06:05David Hoffman?

  I didn't know we were arguing.

• 1:06:07Ryan Sean Adams?

  Okay, no, no, I just, I don't know. Is it cool though? Okay, so I have been promised real estate on-chain forever. Okay. And it's never taken off. It's been five years.

• 1:06:19David Hoffman?

  It's been a big.

• 1:06:19Ryan Sean Adams?

  Five years and used to work at RealT. So I've heard your previous thoughts on this. I know this is different because it's an NFT and it's cool. It seems like it's attached to kind of like.

• 1:06:28David Hoffman?

  It's also different because it's a business that already existed.

• 1:06:31Ryan Sean Adams?

  Okay.

• 1:06:31David Hoffman?

  That was doing democratizing access to real estate property.

• 1:06:35Ryan Sean Adams?

  Okay, I get that. But also still the house is off-chain, right? So all you're getting is kind of this global transaction verification of an off-chain assets, like the real world asset on-chain thing. That's just also still hasn't really taken off very much yet.

• 1:06:54David Hoffman?

  Yes, your, your take now is, is it's not crypto native. Therefore, why should I be excited about it? Because it's still meatspace, legal regulation.

• 1:07:03Ryan Sean Adams?

  Kind of, that's part of the take. And then also the other take is just like, it's been five damn years.

• 1:07:08David Hoffman?

  Right. Okay, but the fact that Roofstock is doing this is different.

• 1:07:12Ryan Sean Adams?

  Okay.

• 1:07:12David Hoffman?

  Because again, like I said, they're all, they're not a startup. They already are like profitable as a company, probably. And they are now getting into blockchain stuff. And so you're totally right in that, and this is why like tokenized real estate was also just fundamentally uninteresting to me in the first place was that it's not crypto. Like I like things like ultrasound money or CryptoPunks. But tokenized real estate or off-chain real estate is inherently not actually blockchain innovation. It's legal system innovation. It's like lawyer innovation. It's lawyer-heavy blockchain light. But we're seeing signs of this starting to actually roll. And so we'll see and like there are benefits of doing on-chain stuff. There's our, there are literal, just a bigger marketplace for on-chain stuff.

• 1:07:57David Hoffman?

  And just things are actually easier. Payments and escrow and all that stuff. As somebody who recently bought a house and did the whole escrow process, I would have loved for that to have been a multi-sig on-chain. I could totally see how that would have translated. So there are real efficiency improvements by using blockchain.

• 1:08:13Ryan Sean Adams?

  You know, it's honestly, I've always thought it's only a matter of time, right? It's just not going to be the first. It's kind of somewhere between like, you know, crypto money that we have and like being able to buy a coffee with Bitcoin, right? It's like somewhere in between kind of the spectrum of when it happens in our trajectory. But this is cool, David. All right.

• 1:08:33David Hoffman?

  This is, this is cooler. This is definitely cooler.

• 1:08:35Ryan Sean Adams?

  You think it's cooler? I think it's way cooler. Yeah. This is an example of like stuff that went under the radar, right? 2.5 million people just created crypto wallets using Reddit and no one noticed, including the Redditors themselves, I'm pretty sure.

• 1:08:52David Hoffman?

  Not even them. They didn't even notice.

• 1:08:54Ryan Sean Adams?

  Okay, so this is a story from TechCrunch. Redditors have created millions of crypto wallets to buy NFT avatars. This is a tweet during a panel at TechCrunch Disrupt. The Reddit chief product officer revealed that to date Reddit's Vault blockchain, which by the way is based on Polygon technology, created over 3 million crypto wallets to date. 3 million crypto wallets and they didn't even know that they were creating it. Most of these, 2.5 million of them, were created to purchase NFT avatars that could be sold as profile pics on the platform. 40,000 of these things sold between $9.99 and $99.99. And most of these sales are with credit cards.

• 1:09:36David Hoffman?

  I want to emphasize that. 40,000 NFTs were sold at various price ranges from $10 to $100 and they sold out. And remember, I remember talking about this a few weeks ago where Reddit was going to do this. And somebody made the comment how they never use the word NFT. They just used digital collectible and they sold it with a credit card. So. Not NFTs, that are actually NFTs, were sold with credit cards and 30 artists released 40,000 avatars and they all sold out. And so what's the lesson here? NFTs, don't call them NFTs, don't make them use crypto and just charge them credit cards and that worked.

• 1:10:17David Hoffman?

  And so like there's, there's now perhaps like millions of people who don't know that they just bought an NFT on a blockchain.

• 1:10:23Ryan Sean Adams?

  And that they've opened a real crypto wallet.

• 1:10:26David Hoffman?

  Yes.

• 1:10:27Ryan Sean Adams?

  They don't know that either. That's how seamless this is.

• 1:10:29David Hoffman?

  Users who purchased one of the limited edition pictures got licensing rights to use it on and off Reddit as an avatar and could mix and match their avatar's look using a built-in avatar builder tool. That is cool. And this is, this has always been the bull case for Ethereum is that it finds its way into all corners of the internet and you don't actually notice that it's there.

• 1:10:47Ryan Sean Adams?

  I mean, just to benchmark this, okay, so Reddit maybe just onboarded 3 million people to crypto wallets, okay? OpenSea has about a million active wallets.

• 1:10:56Ryan Sean Adams?

  As of, as of last January, they had that. MetaMask has about 30 million, 30 million users. So bam, 2.5 million users, just like that. That's how, that's how quickly social media can scale us. David, what's the story?

• 1:11:09David Hoffman?

  European Union countries must be ready to block crypto mining, says the European, European Commission. Members of the European Union, the EU is developing an energy efficient label for blockchains, approved, basically approved or unapproved blockchains, as the distribution of gas supplies from Russia leaves some fearing high energy prices, blackouts and shortages. So there's a quote here, "In case there, there is a need for load shedding in the electricity systems, the EU member states must be ready to stop crypto asset mining," the commission said. Load shedding is of course when energy companies deliberately switch off supply to certain set of users to avoid the entire grid toppling. In the coming months to years, the commission intends to take various steps to boost digital energy services

• 1:11:52David Hoffman?

  while ensuring an energy efficient sector, including an energy efficient label for blockchains.

• 1:11:58David Hoffman?

  I feel like, Ryan, I called this. When we had, we saw the invasion of Ukraine by Russia. We saw the coming energy squeeze as we are going into the winter. And then Ethereum went proof of stake. And right around the time where energy prices start to go through the roof in Europe. And now, people, the European Union says, we're gonna have to stop crypto mining, which is basically, at this point, Ryan, just Bitcoin mining, because energy is in short supply. I feel like I called this.

• 1:12:27Ryan Sean Adams?

  It's unfortunately for Bitcoin, proof of work, too. It's not just the fact that they are stopped, like, they want to stop it because of the energy waste narrative. It's the fact that they can stop it.

• 1:12:39David Hoffman?

  Yes, and well, yes, and it's also not just the narrative. They need the energy to power people's homes that Bitcoin is sucking up.

• 1:12:46Ryan Sean Adams?

  Right, that is the fact on the ground, too. I know, it's, I think it's a major problem for proof of work moving forward, and certainly a regulatory burden for Bitcoin. David, what's this? What happened with Cosmos last week?

• 1:12:59David Hoffman?

  Yeah, huge security vulnerability, at least it's allegedly huge. On October 13th, Ethan Buckman, the co-founder of the IBC ecosystem of Cosmos, says that a critical security vulnerability has been discovered that impacts all IBC-enabled Cosmos chains for all versions of IBC, as in the whole thing. Buckman assured that steps have already been taken to ensure that all major public IBC-enabled chains have been patched. Yeah, wow, the whole thing got a bug.

• 1:13:26Ryan Sean Adams?

  I mean, this sounds really bad, because IBC is everywhere. I mean, if something like this could take down the entire interchain.

• 1:13:32David Hoffman?

  Yes.

• 1:13:33Ryan Sean Adams?

  It's funny, this just came out after-

• 1:13:34David Hoffman?

  But it's patched.

• 1:13:35Ryan Sean Adams?

  It's patched, thank God. And they found it before anything really bad happened. But it's disconcerting when something like this is kind of so deep in the code. David, BNY Mellon, this is a bank, old school, traditional bank, they just launched a digital asset custody platform. Is this a big deal?

• 1:13:54David Hoffman?

  Well, it's not only a very old bank, it's America's oldest bank, Ryan. 238 years old. Select clients will now be able to hold and transfer Bitcoin and Ether. So quote from the article, "While BNY is not the first bank to explore crypto, this is still big important news because BNY Mellon reaches 20% of the world's investable assets, a remarkable 42 trillion in assets under custody and 1.8 trillion in assets under management." Those are big numbers.

• 1:14:23Ryan Sean Adams?

  It just shows you how.

• 1:14:23David Hoffman?

  Remember how the crypto industry is currently at .95 trillion? And BNY Mellon has 1.8 trillion in assets under management.

• 1:14:33Ryan Sean Adams?

  It's Bitcoin and Ether.

• 1:14:35David Hoffman?

  Bitcoin and Ether.

• 1:14:35Ryan Sean Adams?

  It shows you how saturated Bitcoin and Ether have become among mainstream finance as well. We've got a lot more work to do with DeFi, but Bitcoin and Ether as assets are there. Getting into releases, DYDX just released an option for fiat onboarding. Is that what this looks like?

• 1:14:54David Hoffman?

  Credit card deposit. So yeah, you can now fund your DYDX account with a credit card. And my only take here is that the current Ethereum ecosystem or crypto ecosystem has like, I don't know, five, six, seven, eight, nine, 10, I don't know, 10 onramps of fiat. But the bull case for Ethereum is that it goes to infinity because all of the apps on all the chains all have their own native onboarding, whether they, if they need it. And that's what we're seeing here is that you just DYDX is an application. It's going to be its own chain. It has its own native onboarding. So every single endpoint of Ethereum can produce its own onramp onto crypto.

• 1:15:27Ryan Sean Adams?

  I think so. I think what you're saying, if you want to get money into DeFi, fiat into DeFi, you have to take a step and that step is usually in the form of like your bank to a crypto exchange, like a Coinbase or Gemini to DeFi, right? It's like a three step hop. This goes direct from bank to DeFi.

• 1:15:42David Hoffman?

  Bank to DeFi.

• 1:15:43Ryan Sean Adams?

  Very nice. How about this? What's OP craft?

• 1:15:47David Hoffman?

  OP Craft is an autonomous world, a fully on-chain virtual space, kind of like Minecraft, definitely like Minecraft, where the entire world, every aspect, every river, blade of grass, every patch of snow on the mountains, exists on-chain. And every single action in the world happens as an Ethereum transaction. So this is built using what Optimism released a little bit before DevCon, which is the OP stack. And so the OP stack is this modular Layer 2 stack. I think it's going to be the future of Layer 2s, because just like how Ethereum Layer 1 has gone from monolithic to modular, so are Ethereum Layer 2s, except what OP Craft has done is they've popped out the Ethereum VM, and they popped in Minecraft,

• 1:16:30David Hoffman?

  which is crazy. Why would you do this? I don't know. But now we have a verifiable state machine of Minecraft that now exists as a part of the OP stack.

• 1:16:40Ryan Sean Adams?

  This is really cool. So there's a link in there, by the way, where you can play OP Craft, if you want to try that out. David, on the raises this week, the most notable one, I think, was this one from ChainSafe. ChainSafe is excited to announce that they raised $18.75 million as a Series A. The reason that's notable is ChainSafe. What do they do, David?

• 1:17:00David Hoffman?

  They make clients. They make three main clients. They make Loadstar for Ethereum, they make a client for Polkadot, they also make a client for BioCoin. So, cool. I mean, we like it when our clients get money, because this entire industry is built on clients. So that's that. Congrats to the ChainSafe team.

• 1:17:16Ryan Sean Adams?

  This reminds me of the episode that we did early in the week with Arbitrum's purchase of Prismatic and the Prism team, the major Ethereum client, of course. You can catch that in the RSS feed somewhere. It's also, with a raise, it's time to remind you that we have a job board. It's live. Crypto's hiring. And what should people do, David?

• 1:17:35David Hoffman?

  They should get a job, Ryan.

• 1:17:36Ryan Sean Adams?

  Get a job in crypto. Do you know, I saw some tweets back, like, "Hey, I did it! Ryan, David, I got a job in crypto!" I see that almost every week.

• 1:17:43David Hoffman?

  They're my favorite tweets.

• 1:17:44Ryan Sean Adams?

  If you do get a job in crypto, make sure you shout out, because like, congrats to you. And also, welcome.

• 1:17:49David Hoffman?

  You deserve a congrats. Welcome to the world of Web3.

• 1:17:51Ryan Sean Adams?

  I'm going to read a few jobs for you guys, as I usually do. Uniswap Labs, hiring a Director of Product Management, platform... non-technical?

• 1:18:00David Hoffman?

  Is that? I don't really know.

• 1:18:02Ryan Sean Adams?

  A question mark. Developer Relations Lead.

• 1:18:06David Hoffman?

  Developer relations?

• 1:18:07Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, I'm really stumped, David. I think that's non-technical. You need to know a little bit, but I think I'm gonna say that's non-technical. Senior front-end engineer, that's technical.

• 1:18:16David Hoffman?

  That's technical.

• 1:18:16Ryan Sean Adams?

  Senior backend engineer, trading platform, technical.

• 1:18:18David Hoffman?

  That's technical.

• 1:18:19Ryan Sean Adams?

  Head of security at Optimism.

• 1:18:20David Hoffman?

  That's technical.

• 1:18:21Ryan Sean Adams?

  Senior infrastructure engineer, DevOps.

• 1:18:23David Hoffman?

  That's technical.

• 1:18:24Ryan Sean Adams?

  We've got roles from Rabbit Hole, CoinShift, Ribbit Capital, and on. If you want access to all of these jobs, go to banklist.pallet.com/jobs and log in and find out more. All right, guys, coming up, we've got some takes from Twitter. Of course, Bitcoin and ETH, what were they worth five years ago compared to now? And what does that tell us about the future? Of course, as always, make sure you like and subscribe if you're enjoying this episode so far. We'll be right back, but before we do, we want to thank the sponsors that made this episode possible.

• 1:18:51David Hoffman?

  Sequence is the all-in-one developer platform you need to build Web3 games and applications. For your users, Sequence is a smart wallet, and it's the easiest, most intuitive onboarding your users will ever experience, and comes with all the features users need to feel empowered in the Web3 world. Multi-train support, NFT display, and users can buy SFTs, NFTs, and crypto directly with a credit or debit card. For developers, Sequence is the plug-and-play platform for Web3 games and apps. Their APIs let you bring NFTs, SFTs, and tokens into your game or application. And a Sequence relayer enables gasless transactions for your users. Sequence already powers some of the best Web3 games, like Skyweaver, NFT projects like Cool Cats, and marketplaces like NiftySwap.

• 1:19:33David Hoffman?

  And Sequence is compatible with all the VM chains, including Ethereum, Polygon, Binance Smart Chain, Arbitrum, Optimism, and Avalanche. So go to sequence.xyz/banklist to start building, or speak with the Sequence team today. Trufi is DeFi's largest credit protocol, connecting global lenders with institutional-grade lending opportunities. Trufi has completed over $1.7 billion in originations and paid out nearly $35 million to lenders, proving that DeFi is ready to take its next big leap into the $8 trillion credit market. Trufi gives lenders like you access to sustainable, high-yield opportunities backed by real-world investments, usually reserved for high-net-worth individuals. At the same time, fund managers use Trufi's financial infrastructure to bring

• 1:20:15David Hoffman?

  Bringing their portfolios on-chain, benefiting from the global liquidity, cost savings, and transparency of DeFi. TrueFi is a decentralized financial utility. The protocol is owned and governed by the TrueFi DAO, and TrueFi is here to bring DeFi into the golden age, bridging the power and access of crypto with institutional-grade lending opportunities and portfolio tooling. Explore the diverse financial opportunities available on TrueFi, or launch your own portfolio at truefi.io. Robert Leschner tweets out, "Think of all that has happened in crypto and globally since January of 2018." The reason why he's saying January 2018, because that was the top of the 2017 ICO mania. It was December to January.

• 1:20:53David Hoffman?

  And then he goes, "Well, keep thinking about it. Bitcoin and Ether are both worth less than they were five years ago." It's also an anniversary of the top of 2017 tweet. That's basically also what's going on here. But Robert Leschner says Bitcoin and Ether are worth less than they were five years ago. How's it make you feel, Ryan?

• 1:21:15Ryan Sean Adams?

  Confused.

• 1:21:16David Hoffman?

  Yeah, I'm also confused.

• 1:21:18Ryan Sean Adams?

  Leschner's really tripping me out. Okay, okay, Robert, I'm thinking about it. He says, "Keep thinking about it. I'm thinking about it." Is that bullish or bearish?

• 1:21:25David Hoffman?

  It's bullish.

• 1:21:25Ryan Sean Adams?

  Well, we always went in doubt, always.

• 1:21:28David Hoffman?

  Always be bullish.

• 1:21:29Ryan Sean Adams?

  On the side of bullish. I think it's bullish. I think it means, well, probably it was very bearish if you were in January 2018. I mean that like, there's a lot of price and like, not a lot here.

• 1:21:41David Hoffman?

  Right. It was the next five years of growth priced in.

• 1:21:44Ryan Sean Adams?

  It's already priced in, right? But now, the question is, are the next five years of growth priced in with an ETH at, what, 2,000 or 1,200 something? Is that what we read at the top of the episode?

• 1:21:56David Hoffman?

  I'm gonna go with no. No, it's not priced in.

• 1:21:58Ryan Sean Adams?

  I'm gonna go with hell no. It's not priced in. Can't be priced in. No way.

• 1:22:02David Hoffman?

  I don't think there's ever been a moment where the full potential of Ethereum has been priced in. Except at the top.

• 1:22:07Ryan Sean Adams?

  Well, yes, and we won't know, of course, until we see the full potential of Ethereum, what the full price should be. But yeah, I don't know, I think that's what he's probably saying, although you could interpret this the other way and be like, I guess nothing's happened. I think he's saying a lot's happened in the last five years.

• 1:22:22David Hoffman?

  Yes, I am pretty sure.

• 1:22:23Ryan Sean Adams?

  All right, what's this? David Hoffman is saying, "Bankless is bigger than just Bankless HQ, and here you are with a photo of someone in a Bankless tee, but it looks a little different." What's this Bankless tee?

• 1:22:32David Hoffman?

  Yeah, this is the Bankless Brazil guys, which Ryan and I have signed us up for a podcast with them next week.

• 1:22:37Ryan Sean Adams?

  Oh, cool. So, do I need to have Portuguese?

• 1:22:39David Hoffman?

  No, I don't know Portuguese either.

• 1:22:42Ryan Sean Adams?

  Okay.

• 1:22:43David Hoffman?

  But yeah, I mean, it's just cool to see all the different flavors of Bankless tees that are out and about DevCon. And so shout out to the Bankless Brazil team who just keeps on chugging along.

• 1:22:50Ryan Sean Adams?

  Their podcast is great. It's in my feed. I like, listen to it just to, because, you know, but I don't understand Portuguese, but it's just fantastic. And these guys are crushing it on social media as well. Here's a tweet from Tom Emmer. Do you want to read this one?

• 1:23:03David Hoffman?

  Yeah, Tom Emmer, Representative Tom Emmer says, "Decentralization is the point." I'm pretty sure this is subtweeting SPF. "If we sacrifice DeFi for legislation, we're throwing away the opportunity." Yes. Nice job, Tom Emmer.

• 1:23:17Ryan Sean Adams?

  David, it's a politician saying this.

• 1:23:19David Hoffman?

  Yeah, that's cool.

• 1:23:20Ryan Sean Adams?

  It's incredible. It's amazing. One other tweet. This is the classic regulatory capture attack.

• 1:23:29David Hoffman?

  Reads the tweet.

• 1:23:30Ryan Sean Adams?

  Reads the tweet. Here's what you do if you want to classically.

• 1:23:35David Hoffman?

  Everyone, write down your notes.

• 1:23:36Ryan Sean Adams?

  Capture. Okay, this is Dr. Dick. This was a tweet put out over the summer, but I think it's resurfaced and you might see why. So if you want to capture an industry, here's what you do. Number one, you enter a nascent, unregulated industry, and then you be early, you be lucky, you be aggressive, you make hay while the sun shines. Then...

• 1:23:53David Hoffman?

  Okay, okay, so you build a business and you make a lot of money.

• 1:23:55Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yep. Step one. Step two, you get away with whatever you can. You push it right up to the point where you're told to stop. You find the boundaries. Step two.

• 1:24:03David Hoffman?

  Okay, so you liquidate your own customers, you shill a bunch of tokens, and you make more money.

• 1:24:07Ryan Sean Adams?

  Check, check, check. Number three, you've made your billions. Well done. Got your market share. Now it's time to shut the door behind you. You spend a good chunk of your spoils on "compliance," in quotes. The goal now is to be the market leader, the regulations you know are coming. Lawyer up to the max. Starts to sound like someone I know. Number four, you know they're coming because it's you that's lobbying for them. This industry needs, quote, "cleaning up for the good of the customer." Even better if you think a, think of the children. Even better if you can find a, think of the children narrative. You're the champion of making this industry better.

• 1:24:43David Hoffman?

  So like you make a bunch of blog posts that are like, hey, we need to protect consumers. And you talk about that a lot.

• 1:24:49Ryan Sean Adams?

  You spend time in Washington, you're the adult in the room, you know how to solve this. You get where they're coming from, you get where crypto is coming from, or whatever industry you're trying to conquer. Number five, this gets the regulators on your side because you're the actor most progressive in the industry on compliance. They have to let you pass because you're top of the pile. They can't be seen destroying the industry, so they need a good guy to get behind. Kind of a fall guy, good guy. Hey, if this person says it's okay, it must be okay, right? And he's crypto and you're crypto, why don't you like it? Number six, every other newcomer to the space hasn't made enough money yet to be able to afford the new compliance regime.

• 1:25:21David Hoffman?

  Yeah, this is regulatory arbitrage.

• 1:25:22Ryan Sean Adams?

  You're shutting them out. And in any case, you've hired all the people that know how to impact the rules and implement them. In fact, you've made the rules, so you know them better than anyone. Number seven, here's what happens next. Maybe we're at number seven. Regulations come in. Everyone dies, apart from you and the handful of big players on your tail, or the ones willing to play the outlaw regulatory arbitrage game. So what do you do now? Now your job is to layer on the bureaucracy, lobby for the regulations to fit the way you're already doing it. If you have a competitor that's doing it radically different, lobby to make it illegal. Congratulations, you've captured the industry. Now it's time for ultra monopoly, own it all, crush your competitors, make your shareholders happy. The end.

• 1:26:09David Hoffman?

  I hate this movie. This movie sucks.

• 1:26:11Ryan Sean Adams?

  Seen this movie before.

• 1:26:12David Hoffman?

  I've seen this movie before.

• 1:26:13Ryan Sean Adams?

  The banking industry, so many industries, the social media, so many industries that achieve regulatory capture.

• 1:26:19David Hoffman?

  And this is why Ethereum as a protocol and the all core Dev's Call puts such a strong emphasis on credible neutrality, because the one thing that we are trying to do in Ethereum is make systems that are capture resistant. And this tweet thread starts with the classic regulatory capture attack.

• 1:26:38David Hoffman?

  When was this tweet thread written?

• 1:26:40Ryan Sean Adams?

  I can't go on the date on this.

• 1:26:43David Hoffman?

  July 3rd, 2022, months ago.

• 1:26:45Ryan Sean Adams?

  Months ago.

• 1:26:46David Hoffman?

  Months ago.

• 1:26:46Ryan Sean Adams?

  Months ago. And, you know, we don't have to name names, obviously, but this is what we should be wary of in the industry. And particularly, I think the threat could be coming from crypto bankers in the industry.

• 1:26:59David Hoffman?

  Crypto banks, yep.

• 1:27:00Ryan Sean Adams?

  Specifically, it could be coming from DeFi at another stage, maybe DeFi protocols, but not right now. All right, David, what are you excited about this week? What's making you bullish?

• 1:27:09David Hoffman?

  I am bullish on college kids, Ryan.

• 1:27:12Ryan Sean Adams?

  What?

• 1:27:13David Hoffman?

  On Monday, I went and gave a talk to the Princeton Blockchain Club, about 12, 12 kids, 12 Princeton kids, who are all super into crypto. A bunch, a bunch of juniors, a few freshmen, a couple seniors, and the questions they asked were really, really smart. And if you, if you're asking smart questions about crypto, you're already like half of the way through it.

• 1:27:35Ryan Sean Adams?

  I'm told Princeton kids are pretty smart.

• 1:27:37David Hoffman?

  They are pretty smart, allegedly, yes. And then also tomorrow, on Friday, I'm going to go and teach a computer science class about Ethereum.

• 1:27:46Ryan Sean Adams?

  Wait, David doing computer science? They're in trouble. Someone's in trouble.

• 1:27:49David Hoffman?

  Yeah. Okay, so I'm going to talk about, I'm going to do my classic Ethereum is a piece of software that's actually meant to produce culture. So, because like, somebody else can teach them computer science way better than I can. But I'm going to talk about how code influences culture, applications of culture.

• 1:28:06Ryan Sean Adams?

  And you'll be wearing a SpongeBob sweater in order to do that.

• 1:28:09David Hoffman?

  Perhaps.

• 1:28:09Ryan Sean Adams?

  Show the culture.

• 1:28:10David Hoffman?

  Exactly, yeah. Anyways, I'm just like stoked on it because like there's more and more surface area for college kids, universities, both grad and undergrad. There's graduate students in the NYU class, to get exposure to crypto. And the professor of this class I actually met at ECC. So professors are in the Ethereum community, going back to their university to teach their kids about crypto.

• 1:28:31Ryan Sean Adams?

  What do you think the, like, colleges and universities, do you think any students are listening to the bankless? You think we get the Gen Z students?

• 1:28:39David Hoffman?

  Yeah, so the professor, I asked her is like, how much of bankless is in your, like, your, what do you call it, curriculum?

• 1:28:46Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:47David Hoffman?

  And she was like, a lot, a lot of bankless.

• 1:28:49Ryan Sean Adams?

  Really? Like articles?

• 1:28:51David Hoffman?

  Yes. And Evan McMullin has also taught, like, guest lectured for classes around New York. And she says she just like regurgitates bankless episodes.

• 1:29:00Ryan Sean Adams?

  Nice. Well, I've always wanted to be-

• 1:29:01David Hoffman?

  And that's just the ones we know about.

• 1:29:02Ryan Sean Adams?

  I've always wanted to be a professor personally.

• 1:29:04David Hoffman?

  I've also always wanted to be a professor.

• 1:29:06Ryan Sean Adams?

  Well, maybe, are we being professors right now? Is this how you do?

• 1:29:11David Hoffman?

  Pseudo-professor, yeah. Podcast professor.

• 1:29:13Ryan Sean Adams?

  I both want to and I really, really don't want to. Do you know what I mean?

• 1:29:16David Hoffman?

  Yeah, I want a guest lecturer. I don't want to teach.

• 1:29:18Ryan Sean Adams?

  Well, you're living the dream, man. That's awesome, dude.

• 1:29:21David Hoffman?

  Yeah. What are you bullish on, man?

• 1:29:22Ryan Sean Adams?

  I am bullish that this bear market doesn't feel like a bear market. What I'll say is, it just feels different. Um, I've said this before, but look, 2018, 2019, if you weren't there, it was utter despair. Ethereum was dead. Bitcoin was maybe kind of alive. It was on life support. But DeFi had zero product market fit.

• 1:29:43David Hoffman?

  It was the Great Depression of crypto.

• 1:29:45Ryan Sean Adams?

  It was real, it was very bleak. It was very sad. This does not feel like that at all. Prices are down, but there's no depression. I mean, the builders are building. Like, nothing has stopped that. Nothing has stopped. In fact, I think the velocity has increased because there's less noise.

• 1:30:01David Hoffman?

  Yes.

• 1:30:01Ryan Sean Adams?

  And there's more signal.

• 1:30:02David Hoffman?

  Good building is off the charts.

• 1:30:03Ryan Sean Adams?

  There's also like better talent entering the space. And so, we, we actually slowed down our building, I think, during the last bear market. We didn't even know what to build. And this time, I see more firm, like, resolution rather than despair. And so, this is the bear market, but it's a bear market that's different than the last one. This one bear market, we already have product market fit. And you know what? I think this makes it, David. It's the most obvious bear market ever. Because you know we're coming out the other side. The most obvious time to buy, is what I mean.

• 1:30:36David Hoffman?

  Okay. Yes, obvious bear market. I don't think anyone was contesting that's a bear market.

• 1:30:39Ryan Sean Adams?

  Like, the most obvious, um-

• 1:30:42David Hoffman?

  Bear market implying that, like, we're actually gonna go and end the bear market, you mean?

• 1:30:47Ryan Sean Adams?

  A bear market before the bull market, is what I mean. It's just only a matter of time. And I didn't honestly feel, like, so last time, David, I was like, we might not make it. Like, this story might not end well. Um, this is a completely different feeling, which means like, um, I'm back to maybe Leschner's tweet, right? It's like, is the price of ETH now, is the price that was five years ago? And look at the five years of building. And look at all of the talent that is continuing to build in the space and has entered the space in order to build. Tell me you're bullish on that. I, or bearish on that. I dare you to be bearish on that. Um, so, it's gonna be fine. And I think that's the difference between this one and the last.

• 1:31:29David Hoffman?

  Nice, getting me bullish.

• 1:31:31Ryan Sean Adams?

  Getting excited, getting the people excited at the end of the podcast. All right, what's the meme of the week? Is that gonna get them excited?

• 1:31:35David Hoffman?

  Meme of the week? Let's do it. Anyone else getting deja vu, says Nick White of Celestia? Monolithic Layer Ones are like iPhones, made to be obsolete in a couple of years, so you buy a new one. And here's the meme of this guy, but getting like, receiving a shirt as a present, and it's the same exact shirt he already is wearing. And he's wearing Solana, uh, oh, uh, wow, what's the, what's the one below Solana again?

• 1:32:02Ryan Sean Adams?

  Cardano?

• 1:32:03David Hoffman?

  Cardano, Cardano, I don't know why Cardano's there actually. Definity Avalanche, and now he's holding Aptos, and he goes, "Oh my God, thanks, I can't wait to try out my new monolithic Layer One." I do like the evolution of like, monolithic Layer Ones, it's just like, a shinier phone, a shinier iPhone.

• 1:32:17Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah.

• 1:32:17David Hoffman?

  I think that's a, I think that's a good metaphor.

• 1:32:18Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, totally. I love this guy's face too. He just like, got the exact same gift. We keep receiving this gift, every single cycle.

• 1:32:26David Hoffman?

  Well, he clearly loves it, he's wearing it.

• 1:32:28Ryan Sean Adams?

  Totally, just put, put another one in the closet, it's a, it's a benefit. I guess maybe you could do that with Layer Ones too.

• 1:32:33David Hoffman?

  Yeah.

• 1:32:33Ryan Sean Adams?

  All right, guys, uh, this has been the roll-up, we appreciate you hanging with us. As always, gotta remind you of this very important advice, that is not financial advice, written disclaimers. ETH is risky, Bitcoin is risky, so is DeFi, so is all crypto, you could lose what you put in, but we are headed west. This is the frontier, it's not for everyone, but we're glad you're with us on the bankless journey, thanks a lot.

• 1:32:54Speaker 02

  But I want, this guy right here, Ryan Sean Adams, I don't know who the F you are, because you're not important? But here he says, "Please, dear Lord, and any lawmakers or adults reading this tweet, just know BitBoy doesn't represent us either. Talk to Jay Shrvinsky, talk to Miller CWL, talk to Coin Center." You know what? We are tired of people that look like this guy, trying to run stuff. I don't represent the people, the fuck I don't! I'm the one who does. It's me. I'm the one out here putting the work in, behind the scenes, trying to save crypto, while these devils, Sam Bankman-Fried, Brian Armstrong, they're trying to permanently ruin it. This is not about money for me. I hope you guys understand this. I am here fighting for you.

• 1:33:39Speaker 02

  This guy with these frigging glasses on, this douchebag, is out here trying to tell you that only the suits know what to do. Only the suits. Only the people who have all the money. They're the ones who can determine what happens. No, our bill is for the people. And you're gonna find this out. We've got the funding for it, and it's coming out.