The Indicator: Take A Penny, Leave A Penny, Get Rid Of The Penny

In November, the U. S. stopped production of the humble penny after 232 years in circulation. On today’s show, Darian Woods and Wailin Wong from NPR's daily economics podcast The Indicator unpack the fiscal math that doomed the penny, and an artist pay tribute to this American icon. Follow the Indicator on Apple Podcasts https://podcasts.apple.com/podcast/1320118593?mt=2&at=11l79Y&ct=nprdirectory or Spotify https://open.spotify.com/show/4X3yDKgVTWRjSd6r0vhgo4. View more of Robert Wechsler’s artwork here https://robertwechsler.com/. Listen to every episode of Short Wave sponsor-free and support our work at NPR by signing up for Short Wave+ at plus.npr.org/shortwave http://plus.npr.org/shortwave. Listen to Short Wave on Spotify https://n.pr/3HOQKeK and Apple Podcasts https://n.pr/3WA9vqh. See pcm.adswizz.com https://pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for sponsorship and to manage your podcast sponsorship preferences. NPR Privacy Policy https://www.npr.org/about-npr/179878450/privacy-policy

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  This message comes from the Southern Environmental Law Center. No one voted for dirty air and water. That's why S E L C is fighting back to defend the healthy environment everyone depends on, because it's not political, it's fundamental. Learn more at selc.org.

• 0:18Emily Kwong?

  Hey, everyone. Just a word before today's episode. 2025 is almost over, and at NPR and our local stations, we are excited to begin a new year. This year was tough. The loss of federal funding for public media, attacks on the free press. But despite it all, we are not shying away from our jobs. From exercising the critical right to editorial independence guaranteed by the First Amendment, with your support at NPR, we will continue our work without fear or favor. And we will continue to produce a show that introduces you to new discoveries, everyday mysteries, and explains the science behind the headlines. If you're already an NPR Plus supporter, thank you. We want you to know how important your support is right now.

• 1:02Emily Kwong?

  And if you're not a supporter, please become one today, before the end of the year at least, at plus.npr.org. Sign up to unlock a bunch of perks, like bonus episodes and more from across NPR's podcasts. Plus, you get to feel good about supporting public media while you listen. So end the year on a high note and invest in a public service that matters to you. Visit plus.npr.org today. Thank you.

• 1:27Emily Kwong?

  You're listening to Short Wave from NPR. Hey, Short Wavers. Emily Kwong here. 'Tis the season of giving. And we are giving you a little extra something to listen to today, an episode from our podcast cousins, NPR's economics show, The Indicator. Now, this piece you're about to hear is all about the penny. Why this innocent piece of currency may soon be a thing of the past. This episode's got a little science, it's got a little math, it's got fun penny facts. We think you'll like it. And we'll be back with our regular show tomorrow. In the meantime, give The Indicator a follow. There's a link in our episode notes. Okay, here are Wayland Wong and Darian Woods.

• 2:08Speaker 02

  I'm Darian Woods.

• 2:09Speaker 03

  And I'm Wayland Wong. Pennies are everywhere. They're between our couch cushions and on the floor of our cars. They're in fountains and junk drawers. And there's even a penny on Mars.

• 2:22Speaker 04

  If there is, like, other life out there, that's the thing maybe that they would find about the United States.

• 2:28Speaker 03

  Christina Shutt is the executive director of the Abraham Lincoln Presidential Library and Museum in Springfield, Illinois. And if some alien were to pick up that penny on Mars, it would be holding an artifact from 1909. That's the year that the penny's design was changed to put Abraham Lincoln on it. And fun fact, he was the first American president to be put on a circle-leading coin.

• 2:51Speaker 04

  If the one thing that, you know, some other life form knows about us is Abraham Lincoln, like, that's a pretty good representation of what's the best of us, right? And so, I don't know, that's kind of cool to me.

• 3:04Speaker 02

  So the penny with its image of Lincoln has made it all the way to outer space. But it has also reached a different kind of final frontier. Last month, the US government minted the very last penny.

• 3:17Speaker 03

  There are still around 300 billion pennies in circulation. That's almost nine bucks for every person in the US. But the coin's 232-year run is coming to an end. On today's show, we trace the penny's long decline and pay tribute to this humble bit of American currency.

• 3:38Speaker 00

  Stay tuned for the following announcements and messages from our sponsors.

• 3:42Speaker 05

  This message comes from International Medical Corps. When crises strike, every second matters. And that's why International Medical Corps moves fast. From the flooding in Nepal to earthquakes in Venezuela, they deliver lifesaving medical care and supplies around the world while training local health workers to ensure care continues long after the emergency ends. This giving season, your generosity saves lives and builds resilience for tomorrow. Learn more or donate today at internationalmedicalcorps.org/NPR.

• 4:16Speaker 00

  This message comes from Edward Jones, where they believe rich isn't about having life all figured out. It's opening yourself to all the possibilities. That's why your dedicated financial advisor provides long-term planning built around you, meeting you where you are, and helping you get closer to where you want to be. So no matter where you're starting from, or wherever life takes you, you can move forward with confidence. The key to being rich is knowing what counts. Let's find your rich together. Edward Jones. Member SIPC.

• 4:49Speaker 05

  This message comes from Mint Mobile. Ditch overpriced wireless and get premium wireless for less. Go to mintmobile.com/switch to see which plan works for you.

• 5:01Speaker 02

  We wanted to talk to somebody who was there when the penny first started to become a problem. So we called up Ed Moy. And when we got him on the line, he didn't waste any time.

• 5:11Speaker 03

  It is really nice to meet you and get you on the phone.

• 5:14Speaker 06

  So I would give you a penny for your thoughts, except that pennies are worth four cents. So you're getting a bonus.

• 5:20Speaker 03

  You have the penny jokes coming already, and I love it.

• 5:23Speaker 02

  Ed served as the Director of the US Mint from 2006 to 2011. The Mint is the government office in charge of making money. Literally, it produces and circulates currency.

• 5:35Speaker 03

  Its interesting coins started way before he joined the government. His immigrant parents ran a Chinese restaurant when he was growing up, and he started manning the cash register at age 10.

• 5:45Speaker 06

  When I was bored, I would paw through the change drawer and pick out coins that looked all silver or just unusual designs. And that began kind of a lifelong interest in the coin area. And this is the story about America. Little did I know that, fast forward 40 years later, I would become Director of the United States Mint.

• 6:08Speaker 02

  The job of the Mint is to make enough circulating coins to meet demand within the economy. And Ed says the office tries to do this at no cost to the taxpayers. And that means it shouldn't cost more to make a coin than the face value of that coin.

• 6:24Speaker 03

  The best case scenario is when a coin's face value is more than the production cost, then the government makes a profit. There's even a special term for that profit, seniorage. This money goes to the Treasury's general fund to help pay down the national debt.

• 6:38Speaker 02

  In 2006, Ed's first year on the job, the US Mint was making money on dimes, quarters and dollar coins, but it was losing money on nickels and pennies. In fact, 2006 was the first year that the cost of making a penny went above one cent. Ed remembers it going to 1.4 cents.

• 6:57Speaker 06

  This is the run up toward the financial crisis and the economy was still kind of hot in 2006, so base metals started increasing in price. And all of a sudden, this penny that was made of 97.5% zinc, 2.5% copper, started creeping up above one penny to make. So I started consulting with Congress, saying costs are going up.

• 7:26Speaker 03

  Congress has a constitutional authority to regulate currency. And Ed remembers that lawmakers did not see the increase in cost of penny production as an urgent problem. Producing coins was still profitable overall, and losses from the penny then and now were super small compared with the federal budget.

• 7:44Speaker 06

  You know, an $80 million loss? It's a rounding year of a rounding year in the federal government.

• 7:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, so the federal budget is around $7 trillion. So 80 million out of 7 trillion, that's like one cent, one penny out of $875.

• 8:03Speaker 03

  Still, Congress gave Ed the green light to study cheaper ways to make the penny. And he considered some alternatives, but they didn't pan out. Swapping in a cheaper metal like steel would still cost more than one cent per penny. And switching to non-metallic materials was also impractical.

• 8:20Speaker 02

  Ed left the Mint in 2011. He didn't get to finish that study on what to do with the penny. And by then, the cost of making it had gone from around 1.4 cents to 2.4 cents. Demand for pennies was also declining as people used less cash.

• 8:35Speaker 06

  That was up to my successor to deliver that report to Congress. And every other successor has had to deal with this problem.

• 8:44Speaker 02

  By last month, when the Mint announced it was producing the last penny, the cost to make the coin was 3.7 cents. Ed says he understands why the government finally made the call.

• 8:55Speaker 06

  It wasn't a surprise that eventually someone's going to have to make that decision. We have enough pennies. It's it's time to end the production of pennies.

• 9:07Speaker 03

  A lot of people are totally over the penny. They throw them away or just let them sit around in jars. But we did find someone who really treasures this little guy.

• 9:17Speaker 07

  My name is Robert Wexler and I'm an artist. And for more than two decades now, I've been focusing on the US penny. And I just finished 100,000 penny cube.

• 9:28Speaker 03

  Robert cut notches into 100,000 pennies. Then he slid them together to form a 3D lattice. The sculpture took him seven years to finish and it's on display at Wellesley College in Massachusetts.

• 9:41Speaker 07

  I was worried that the penny would be canceled and removed from currency before I finished. Because if I finished the piece after that, it would be nothing but a memorial to the penny. And I didn't like that idea because for me, it has a lot more to say.

• 9:57Speaker 03

  This coin has fascinated Robert ever since he was a kid. And his grandfather would pretend to pull a penny out of his ear. He kept those coins in an orange Tupperware container because they felt magical to him.

• 10:08Speaker 02

  For his art, Robert needs a lot more than Tupperware containers of pennies. So he orders them in bulk from his bank.

• 10:16Speaker 07

  They really don't like doing it because they're heavy and they take up space in the vault. And they they insist that you pick them up immediately. But they can't tell you when they're going to arrive because they don't want you to know when their bank truck is going to be there. Because for security reasons.

• 10:30Speaker 03

  Oh, my gosh, because what if you pulled off a heist?

• 10:32Speaker 07

  Exactly.

• 10:32Speaker 03

  You just have to be on call for when the pennies arrive.

• 10:36Speaker 07

  Right.

• 10:36Speaker 02

  The hassle is worth it for Robert, though. He still finds wonder in the penny.

• 10:41Speaker 07

  There are these like lowly.

• 10:44Speaker 07

  Gutter things, you know, they live in muck and they're exposed to unspeakable filth. But that has this incredible effect in that they do turn blue and green, but they also turn like these spectacular oranges and reds or these like really lovely waxy blacks. And it's so unique and special and just, it's like a little world.

• 11:08Speaker 03

  So what's to become of all the pennies still circulating in the world? Well, Robert will take them to use in his art. Former US Mint Director Ed Moy saves them in a coin jar until he has enough to deposit at the bank.

• 11:20Speaker 02

  And back at the Lincoln Museum in Illinois, volunteers set out pennies for schoolchildren to find on the ground. Executive Director Christina Schutt says they've given away more than 200,000 pennies in the last couple of decades.

• 11:33Speaker 04

  It's really cute seeing kids like three and four years running around the plaza looking for the penny to find it. And it gives the volunteers great delight and joy because then they get an opportunity to talk about how Lincoln really is everywhere.

• 11:46Speaker 03

  He's coming out of your ear.

• 11:48Speaker 02

  That will explain the waxy patina that Robert's finding.

• 11:50Speaker 03

  The black wax.

• 11:52Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 11:52Speaker 03

  Unspeakable filth, Darian. You know what, though? The gift shop at the Lincoln Museum no longer accepts pennies.

• 11:59Speaker 02

  How about nickels? I hear these lose even more money now than the penny did.

• 12:03Speaker 03

  Yeah, last year it cost them at close to 14 cents to produce a nickel. That's more than double its face value. So I don't know, maybe we'll do a nickel obit next year.

• 12:11Speaker 02

  Dropping like flies.

• 12:15Speaker 03

  This episode was produced by Julia Ritchie with engineering by Sophie MacArthur. It was fact checked by Corey Bridges. Kiki Cannon is the show's editor and The Indicator is a production of NPR.