#2279 - Ky Dickens

Ky Dickens is a filmmaker and documentarian. She is the host and creator of the "The Telepathy Tapes" podcast. www.thetelepathytapes.com Don’t miss out on all the action this week at DraftKings! Download the DraftKings app today! Sign-up using dkng.co/rogan or through my promo code ROGAN. GAMBLING PROBLEM? CALL 1-800-GAMBLER, (800) 327-5050 or visit gamblinghelplinema.org (MA). Call 877-8-HOPENY/text HOPENY (467369) (NY). Please Gamble Responsibly. 888-789-7777/visit ccpg.org (CT), or visit www.mdgamblinghelp.org (MD).21+ and present in most states. (18+ DC/KY/NH/WY). Void in ONT/OR/NH. Eligibility restrictions apply. On behalf of Boot Hill Casino & Resort (KS).1 per new customer. $5+ first-time bet req. Max. $150 issued as non-withdrawable Bonus Bets that expire in 7 days (168 hours). Stake removed from payout. Terms: sportsbook.draftkings.com/promos. Ends 3/16/25 at 11:59 PM ET. Sponsored by DK. This episode is brought to you by Intuit TurboTax. Now this is taxes. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  The Joe Rogan Experience.

• 0:05Speaker 01

  Training by day, Joe Rogan Podcast by night, all day.

• 0:13Joe Rogan?

  Very nice to meet you.

• 0:14Speaker 00

  Nice to meet you as well.

• 0:15Joe Rogan?

  I really loved your series, the telepathy tapes. I had long suspected that there was some sort of a way to prove that there's something going on. There's no way that that would be a thing for so long, that people would talk about certain moments where people could read people's minds, or certain moments where there was something that was being exchanged, that wasn't verbal, it wasn't facial expressions, it wasn't body language, there was something going on. And the telepathy tapes, excuse me, the telepathy tapes, essentially proved it. But what has been, has there been pushback about this?

• 1:00Joe Rogan?

  I know there's a lot of hardcore skeptics that never want to believe.

• 1:04Speaker 00

  Yeah. I think anytime you're pushing the status quo, there's going to be pushback, of course. But I think the overwhelming amount of emails that we've gotten from families and others that have a non-speaking child have been so excited that this news is finally out there. Same thing with teachers, that have been witnessing, like you said, for witnessing this in classrooms and in their homes for decades. And when facilitated communication first came to America, it was the 90s.

• 1:33Joe Rogan?

  What does that mean, facilitated communication?

• 1:36Speaker 00

  Okay, maybe we should back up, like at the very beginning. I mean, so, I wonder, okay, so what the podcast is about are non-speaking individuals who tend to have a praxia, which is a mind-body disconnect. And those individuals cannot speak with, using their voice, speaking is a fine motor skill, whereas pointing to letters is a gross motor skill. So, spelling to communicate is how many of these individuals communicate, right? And when the first...

• 2:11Speaker 00

  And well, and with that in mind, I just want to say one quick thing that often people historically have looked at people with apraxia or non-speakers and they think that because they can't speak, they can't think, that they're not in there, they don't presume competence. And none of that is true. These individuals have a hard time controlling their body, right? And so if you can't control your body, people make all sorts of assumptions, you know, and and that's been really difficult. And so I think that the subjects in this project who are non-speakers with autism have been up against all sorts of different battles, from people not presuming they're competent, from people doubting their way of communication through spelling to communicate. And then, of course, it comes out in many cases that

• 2:52Speaker 00

  these individuals can read minds, have a plethora of other, for lack of a better word, spiritual gifts. And then the parents and teachers often aren't believed about that either. So it's like there's stigma every which way.

• 3:03Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 3:04Speaker 00

  That and the podcast is kind of a collision of all these stigmas and and really trying to break down those stigmas and be like, here's the truth. These people are in there, spelling is a valid form of communication. And yes, many of them say they have spiritual gifts, which I think we can pretty much validate at this point.

• 3:19Joe Rogan?

  When you say spiritual gifts, what do you mean by that?

• 3:21Speaker 00

  Yeah. So when I first stumbled into this, which we can talk about later if you want, when I first kind of stumbled into this, I thought this was just about telepathy, right? And that there were these individuals and their parents and teachers are claiming they could read minds. And as I start meeting more and more and more of these families, and again, like I said, teachers, not limited to just families, one thing that they started telling me was telepathy is just the tip of the iceberg. And I didn't know what that meant. You know, what do you mean telepathy is the tip of the iceberg? And and it's true because I think whether or not it's ability to see disease or illness in someone and be able to diagnose it before this person knows that there's something wrong, reading an aura and, you know, saying that they can see a color around not just animals and humans,

• 4:05Speaker 00

  but plants, being able to speak multiple languages, even though you haven't taught them, or playing instruments and knowing music, or being able to access almost any song and having perfect pitch, being able to visit people in dreams. And then, I mean, I think some of them were just like mind altering, shocking things for me, whereas how many Non-speaking individuals have said that they are able to speak with people from the other side. And, yeah, so it didn't just start with telepathy or end with telepathy. It's a plethora of things.

• 4:39Joe Rogan?

  So, do you think that this is an emerging aspect of human consciousness? Or do you think perhaps this is something maybe we had before we were verbal that we've lost, but that lays dormant? Like, that we don't need it, so like a muscle, it atrophies?

• 4:56Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think that's exactly right. I mean, I think we all have these abilities. I think this is all part of us. And in the telepathy tapes, in episode five in particular, we get into animal communication through telepathy, and a story of elephants that knew when someone who was like in charge of their big game preserve had died, and they'd walk days to his house and did kind of stay there for grieving, and then would come back every year on the day of his death. I mean, just unbelievably beautiful stuff. Rupert Sheldrake has talked, has written at length, brilliant Cambridge biologist, about dogs, experiments he's done that kind of show that dogs know when their owners are coming home, and sometimes cats. So, so this seems to be part and parcel of the animal kingdom, right?

• 5:39Speaker 00

  And many of us have had that experience of phone telepathy, where, oh, I was just thinking of someone, and they call.

• 5:44Joe Rogan?

  People like to dismiss that as being just coincidence, but I just, why do people want to dismiss everything? Like, that's the problem. It's like, I think, I think the real fear is being fooled. That's the fear. Which is why, the problem with any sort of telepathy or any sort of psychic ability, the problem is there's so many charlatans, and so many people get duped.

• 6:08Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 6:09Joe Rogan?

  And it's really common.

• 6:10Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 6:10Joe Rogan?

  I mean, it's, it's so common, it's, it's everywhere. You see these psychic palm-reading signs everywhere you go. And because of that, it's in the realm forever of nonsense. And if you believe in nonsense, you're not a person to be taken seriously. So if you're a scientist, and you're studying human neurochemistry, and you're studying neuroscience, there's no way you're, you're going to support this unless it's just beating you over the head with overwhelming evidence. Then perhaps you say, maybe there's something here.

• 6:44Speaker 00

  I think that's changing, actually.

• 6:45Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 6:46Speaker 00

  And one of the things that we look at... In the telepathy tapes in episode six, which we call our science episode, is this idea of materialism, which I'm sure you've heard of. You know, this idea that, at least for the past few hundred years, that the reigning philosophy around how we interpret the world is, it's only true if we can measure it and observe it, right? And, and that makes you seem foolish if you believe in something that can't be measured or observed, like a psych phenomenon, like telepathy, or precognition, or, or dreams, being able to communicate with someone, or any of that stuff would be thrown out as being silly. And I think there's been a massive effort to make that true, right? That, that if you believe this, or you're a scientist and you want to publish this,

• 7:27Speaker 00

  we're gonna dismiss you or ridicule you just for even daring to ask that question. Research about this type of stuff has been dismissed because it's materialist, you know, scientists who've, for a long time, run, run the journals.

• 7:41Joe Rogan?

  Sure.

• 7:42Speaker 00

  But, but there is something interesting here, which is that consciousness, we don't know where it comes from, you know? And so what, you know, the brilliant scientist Dean Radin talks about in the telepathy tapes is that if you think of materialism as a pyramid, right? And the base of the pyramid and all the things that have built up our world, which are biology and physics and chemistry and all those things, those have rules and properties and we shouldn't throw those out, those are pretty much true. But currently at the top of the pyramid is consciousness. And we can't explain where that comes from and why it's there. But if you just take consciousness from the top and put it on the bottom, so that consciousness is the basis of all reality, right? That consciousness is fundamental, that all of, everything is the, is a product of our thoughts first, then, then we can account for all this stuff.

• 8:25Speaker 00

  Then we can account for precognition or telepathy. And it's not that big of a change, it's just flipping kind of the order of the pyramid. And I think that makes a lot of sense. And so there's been a lot of scientists who have, have looked into near-death experience research, who've looked into the research around telepathy, who've looked into the research around precognition, and said, we can't dismiss this. This is happening. There's a lot of anecdotal evidence here, there's a lot of things that add up. So we're gonna start the academy of post-materialist sciences, where we will take this stuff seriously, and we will look at the research, and we will advance science. And, and I tend to believe that

• 9:02Speaker 00

  There needs to be a bit of, there needs to be quite a few funerals, but I think in like 50 to 100 years.

• 9:06Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 9:07Speaker 00

  Um, the scientists that were gripping on to the materialist paradigm.

• 9:11Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 9:12Speaker 00

  I really believe that that's going to be kind of like the flat earthers in the future. Like, I think the scientists doing this are on the right side of history because you can't, you have to count for it.

• 9:22Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 9:23Speaker 00

  You know?

• 9:24Joe Rogan?

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• 10:09Joe Rogan?

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• 10:12Speaker 01

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• 10:42Joe Rogan?

  We have to count for it. We don't exactly know where it comes from. And there's a lot of people that think that the universe is formed through consciousness.

• 10:53Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 10:54Joe Rogan?

  This is Thomas Campbell's take on things. I don't know if you're familiar with him?

• 10:58Speaker 00

  I know Thomas, yeah.

• 10:59Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. He was a mind bender. When I had him in here, I was like, what are you saying exactly? Like, you have to like, listen to it three or four times, then you have to, I told him, listen, let's stop here, we'll do it again, because I'm going to have to absorb this.

• 11:12Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 11:13Joe Rogan?

  But the concept is that...

• 11:16Joe Rogan?

  Essentially, the universe is formulated through consciousness in some way.

• 11:23Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 11:23Joe Rogan?

  And that we're interacting with it through consciousness.

• 11:27Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 11:27Joe Rogan?

  And that it's not as real as we want to believe it is.

• 11:33Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, and even if you just basic it down, right, like this room. What came first, the room or the thought of the room? Everything in this room. It was a thought first.

• 11:42Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 11:43Speaker 00

  Everything.

• 11:43Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 11:44Speaker 00

  Everything, everything on our planet was a thought first.

• 11:47Joe Rogan?

  Well, everything that we've created.

• 11:48Speaker 00

  Except for the planet itself.

• 11:48Joe Rogan?

  Right. Yeah, I've always said that, that I think that ideas might be a life form.

• 11:53Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 11:53Joe Rogan?

  That they get into people's heads and then people manufacture physical objects out of these ideas, whether it's art. And I think that's one of the reasons why we like art so much.

• 12:03Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, that's how this whole podcast started, I think, for me.

• 12:06Joe Rogan?

  Sure.

• 12:06Speaker 00

  You know? I was reading that book, Big Magic. I don't know if you've read that book.

• 12:11Joe Rogan?

  No.

• 12:12Speaker 00

  It's wonderful. Um, well, I guess I should back, you know, I was doing a lot of documentary work that was on social issues, right? That was all like fixing broken things in our great country. And then I had a few deaths in my own life. And I thought, my gosh, whatever I do next, I want to fix what's broken in humans. Because I was in a complete topsy-turvy thing of how do these great people that are heroes, you know? A police officer going in and saving someone, my other friend was taking care of, then housed in Kansas City, and how did they die? So I was going through my own, just like, kind of grief process and thinking, whatever I do next, I don't want to look anymore, which I was humbled to do that work of broken social systems. I want to fix what's broken in humanity and figure out what that is.

• 12:53Speaker 00

  But anyway, I was reading Big Magic, and this is a book about how ideas, by Elizabeth Gilbert, how ideas are outside of us. The creative process is, it comes to you. And they're, you know, it's wonderful in the book, they talk about songwriters who wrote a song, and if you don't grab it, you'll hear that same song on the radio, or just how a story will come to you, fully formed. And one of the kind of topics that comes up in that book, too, is you don't ask the creative, whatever, this god muse, the ether, right, to, to, to give this to you. You tell it. I'm going to do this with you, it's going to be great. And so I said that out loud. I was reading this book, I was in this moment of just major shift in my life, and I said, whatever I do next, I want to solve the question of where we're going and why we're here and

• 13:37Speaker 00

  what it all means, and do we have a consciousness, and does it survive? And then, and no, I actually didn't ask it. I said, I'm, yeah, I said, I'm gonna do this next. And I didn't know what it was gonna look like, but then started reading, you know, all the things I got in consciousness, tree communication and about near death experiences and Ian Stevenson's work and all sorts of things. And then I heard a podcast with Dr. Diane Hennessy-Powell, who was a Harvard, you know, a Johns Hopkins educated, you know, taught at Harvard scientist, who was saying that non-speakers that she'd tested had demonstrated a remarkable ability for telepathy and reading minds. And that was like boom, like lightning just kind of hit, like this is, this was the thing. And I really believe if something's

• 14:18Speaker 00

  intended for you, it won't miss you, you know. But I think that concept of big magic was a bit of that, of asking, telling the muse, you know, to, to.

• 14:30Joe Rogan?

  Guide you.

• 14:31Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 14:32Joe Rogan?

  Guide you towards something that can illuminate this issue.

• 14:36Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 14:37Joe Rogan?

  So, did you have a preconceived notion of telepathy or spiritual gifts or anything before this?

• 14:47Speaker 00

  No, I mean, I think like a lot of people, like the idea of mediums and psychics, it felt like people that are often trying to just make money off of people in really vulnerable situations.

• 14:59Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 15:00Speaker 00

  And I've always believed certainly there's gotta be people who have certain gifts like that, you know, but that the vast majority couldn't be trusted, or, you know, I didn't think telepathy could be real. That seems impossible. It just seems impossible. Even things like plant communication felt impossible. Or, I mean, I mean, none of that was something that was, was like my worldview, you know. I was working on, you know, solving problems around paid family medical leave and making health insurance more affordable and accessible. Like, it was not my cup of tea, really. And so, which was kind of great, because as I tumbled into this world, I mean, I was really wide-eyed as like, wait a second, have I been wrong about everything? And that's kind of where I ended up, was like, I had to go revisit

• 15:44Speaker 00

  everything I ever thought about the world, because I started realizing our entire paradigm is wrong. I mean, or, a lot of it is. That was my experience.

• 15:53Joe Rogan?

  So, let's, let's talk about what you saw first. Like, what was the first example where it was like an aha moment for you?

• 16:02Speaker 00

  Yeah, so, um.

• 16:06Speaker 00

  After I heard the interview with Dr. Diane Hennessey-Powell, I zoomed with her and then I asked if I could go see her and meet her and talk about this a bit. Because I thought this could be the next project. And I just knew it was going to be the next project. Right? So, one of the first things I had her do was I was like, can you just tell me about some of the emails that come in from parents? And I had her just kind of go through reading some emails from parents. And it was one after the other. Like, I didn't believe this, and I didn't believe my wife, or I didn't believe my husband, that this could be possible, but we've tested it, we've tested it. People were sending tests. And I thought, okay, whatever is going on here, these parents don't know that any other parents are going through this. They think a singular miracle is happening in their home, that this child can read their thoughts. And that this is where the story is, that there's so many parents who haven't been listened to.

• 16:50Speaker 00

  And so, I really thought this was about parents at first. And then discovered, no, there's been teachers writing about this for 30 years, capturing it, videotaping this phenomenon going on, and scared to come out about it. And I think same with the families, right? I mean, what a weird thing to say, this child can read my mind, or this child seems to be able to do X, Y, Z, things that seem impossible. And so, my first thought was, okay, I need to see this with my own eyes. And so, Dr. Powell had just been reached out to by a family in Mexico who discovered that their 13-year-old daughter was inside. They didn't think she was, and she was able to communicate.

• 17:35Speaker 00

  And the reason they discovered that was during COVID. They were in charge of homeschooling. And started being like, okay, let's see what you know. And bing, bing, bing, she starts spelling, she knew an awful lot. And I think they were shocked. And pretty soon thereafter, she said, I can read your mind. And they thought, what? And they would do tests, what did I just draw? And she'd say what they just drew, what are we thinking? And she would write it. And so...

• 17:57Joe Rogan?

  Do they say what they see? Or how they see it? Like, if someone writes something down, do they see the word, or do they know it?

• 18:06Speaker 00

  Well, I think that's a really good question. And, you know, we've done a few experiments that, you know, again, I'm not a scientist. Like, the experiments I was doing for the film, I mean, which is gonna be now a film, but the podcast, was kind of me just trying to understand, like, proof of concept of what is going on here, right? And, and I can only say what spellers have told me, and there's been quite a few spellers who say I can see through someone's eyes, or I can hear through their ears. And others who seem to have a merged consciousness with, with someone that they're very close to, whether it be a father, or a teacher, or a communication partner, father, or whatever. Where, like, we did some experiments with one mom, where we'd show an image to her. Her son, who was sitting across the room, would all of a sudden start writing what the image was.

• 18:50Speaker 00

  But what was so fascinating is sometimes the mom wouldn't even know what the image was. So, at one point, she thought it was paint. No, no, she thought there was a food fight, and it was ketchup and mustard, and he wrote "paint."

• 19:00Joe Rogan?

  Whoa.

• 19:00Speaker 00

  So, at that point, it's like, she's not obviously sending a thought, right? He seems to be tapping in the second, the images in her own mind. So, for us, it was a big question of, is this just sheer telepathy? Because a few parents have told me, no, this is bigger than that, and it seems like a merging of consciousness of some sort.

• 19:17Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, in a bizarre way. If the mother doesn't know what it is, and the child does, that's strange.

• 19:24Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's really fascinating. And, you know, but I also, one of the stories that I loved, goes back, so Dr., so Rupert Sheldrake, the Cambridge biologist who's in this project, he didn't believe in telepathy either. I mean, I think a lot of scientists, right, don't believe this stuff right away either. And, and he had a, you know, a senior professor that he really looked up to, Sir Rudolph Peters. And he was knighted by Queen Elizabeth for being such a brilliant scientific mind, right? And then Sir Rudolph Peters was in, like, the tea room at Cambridge one time, and telling young Dr. Sheldrake, young Rupert here, that, that he'd just heard of a blind boy that he tested, who, who obviously is blind, and, and can't read an eye chart.

• 20:08Speaker 00

  But if his mother is looking at it, he could read it. And that's how Rupert Sheldrake fell into this world. And that boy was diagnosed with, you know, being blind, but also at the time what they called, you know, severe mental retardation, which now we don't call it that. That's, you know, but, but that's, who knows what this young individual have if he had a praxia or, or what was going on if he had autism, but.

• 20:32Joe Rogan?

  Autism and blindness, like it's a huge impediment, especially non-verbal autism and being blind. Like, how do you learn anything? So you would assume that there's something wrong with the child when really there's just a lack of the ability to communicate. This episode is presented by Searchlight Pictures Wild Horse 9. Shortly before Chile's 1973 coup, two CIA agents played by John Malkovich and Sam Rockwell find their mission on Easter Island spiraling into a web of conspiracies, unexpected alliances, and chaos. Wild Horse 9, only in theaters Friday. Get tickets now. This episode is brought to you by NOCO.

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• 22:57Speaker 00

  Yeah, with, I mean, with non-speaking individuals with apraxia, they are in there. They're so smart. It's just that mind-body disconnect and not being able to, you know.

• 23:06Joe Rogan?

  What do they think causes that? Do they have an understanding of what it is?

• 23:11Speaker 00

  I, you know, I don't know. That's, there's so many wonderful experts out there looking into this and, and I don't know what causes apraxia, but I do know that there's a lot of supports to help individuals who have apraxia to communicate and the world is just making it really difficult for these individuals.

• 23:29Joe Rogan?

  Have you ever seen this young, blind boy that uses echolocation and he can ride a skateboard and move around the, how bizarre is that?

• 23:37Speaker 00

  It's cool. I mean, you know, in some ways you think of like echolocation or, or being able to see through infrared as like a sixth sense, like a sixth that we don't, a sense that we don't have, right? But it's like a sense some other creatures get around with. So it's like what we're talking about here is almost like a seventh sense, right? It's something beyond that. But I just, there's something so beautiful about that, right? That if you, if humans are so creative that we will find our way to get around the world and find our ways to communicate.

• 24:05Joe Rogan?

  Also, when you're missing a sense, your other senses are stronger. This has always been a suspicion. I think that's been proven. Is that correct?

• 24:15Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 24:16Joe Rogan?

  That people are better at hearing things if they're blind or seeing things if they're deaf?

• 24:19Speaker 00

  Yeah. Yeah, I think that is absolutely true. And I think though, as far as, you know, individuals with apraxia go, again, like it's mind-body disconnect, there's so many of the... Spellers I've met who don't know they had a body at first, they can't feel their body. You know, they want heavy boots to know where their feet are, or a heavy necklace to know where their chest is. And, and I think not being in your body, not knowing you have your body, leaves you to live in this consciousness space more, right? This world of thought.

• 24:46Joe Rogan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 24:47Speaker 00

  Where, where we can't imagine that, we're so bound to our body. We have these dissociative, dissociative boundaries where it's like, you're Joe and I'm Kai.

• 24:54Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 24:55Speaker 00

  Um, so I think that's, that's what heightens a lot of this for them is just not, you know, feeling is grounded into their bodies.

• 25:03Joe Rogan?

  In the wackiest of conspiracy theories, when people talk about the government's connection to alien intelligence, that they recruit these non-verbal autistic kids. Cause they're the ones who can communicate with aliens.

• 25:18Speaker 00

  I don't believe that.

• 25:20Joe Rogan?

  No, I don't believe that either. No, it's the wackiest of conspiracy theories, but the idea being that if you were the government, you would look for someone who is extraordinary in, in that they, they're more open to this ability to interact than we would be. They do not have the burden of feeling foolish. They don't have the, the burden of societal constraints that we've kind of culturally put on the idea of alien life being able to communicate with them.

• 25:57Speaker 00

  Yeah. I mean, this is, I have received a question around, you know, could the government utilize these individuals?

• 26:06Joe Rogan?

  Isn't that disgusting? That's the first thing you think about.

• 26:08Speaker 00

  People think about that.

• 26:09Joe Rogan?

  If someone's extraordinary, could the government, like the X-Men?

• 26:12Speaker 00

  Yeah, you're right. Like, how, how will the government utilize this and manipulate it for their own gain?

• 26:16Joe Rogan?

  That's what everybody worries.

• 26:17Speaker 00

  Yeah, and it's a fair worry. I mean, it is a fair worry. And, you know, like, we try to be very protective of, of the families and make sure that... They're safe and that they're only out there if they want to be out there and you know, that type of thing, but.

• 26:29Joe Rogan?

  And even they know what that means.

• 26:31Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 26:31Joe Rogan?

  That's the problem. You say you want to be out there, do you know what that means?

• 26:34Speaker 00

  Right, exactly. But I will say, I mean, every non-speaking individual with these gifts that I've ever met, won't use it for bad or nefarious means. They're interested in love. They're interested in connection.

• 26:47Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 26:48Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 26:49Joe Rogan?

  Of course. Yeah, well, the problem is if they were used and didn't know what they were doing, you know.

• 26:56Speaker 00

  They would know. They'll know. They can read your thoughts and they know what's up. They know what's up better than anyone, I think.

• 27:00Joe Rogan?

  Interesting. When you first started, was there stages of acceptance for you with these ideas?

• 27:10Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 27:10Joe Rogan?

  What was the first stage?

• 27:12Speaker 00

  I mean, the first stage was, I think, I never, I never had the barrier of whether or not they're in there. You know, I worked, I helped start the inclusion program in my high school and I've worked and cared for people, you know, with varying abilities my whole life. So that, I knew they were in there. But I think the next thing for me was the telepathy. And, and when you see it, and when you talk to enough parents who are saying, "All you need to do is go see it." It's not like, it's not like, "Does it show up?" Or like, "Will it appear?" It's like, for the parents and teachers who report this is happening, if you go work with a speller, you just see it. So that was pretty phenomenal. And then the first person we saw being able to do it was this girl Mia. And she was still in the early stages of learning to spell, to communicate. So if she was being touched, it often helps like first with the wrist, and then here, and then here, and then on

• 27:56Speaker 00

  the head, and then often, then there's no touch at all, right? It's just like learning that body and learning those supports to control your motor. So, so Dr. Powell was like, "Ah, no scientist will take this" because she was being touched. And I think a lot of us in the room were like, "Wait, people think she's, her mom's sending Morse code?" Like they're, they planned, I mean, of course, that's ridiculous, it really is. But then, the next individual could do it across the room and wasn't being touched. And, you know, anyone that we saw thereafter wasn't being touched. So that was pretty remarkable. And I don't think touch actually has, I think telepathies are really cool if you're being touched, you know, but. So telepathy was the first one, and then I think the second one was the language stuff. A lot of parents saying, you know, we have no idea how, but she's speaking Portuguese.

• 28:39Speaker 00

  And no one in our house speaks Portuguese, or people talking about.

• 28:43Joe Rogan?

  And this has been documented?

• 28:44Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yes, yes, yes, yes, yeah, it's quite common, actually.

• 28:48Joe Rogan?

  And these are non-verbal kids?

• 28:50Speaker 00

  Non-speakers, yeah.

• 28:52Joe Rogan?

  Non-speakers, so what is the difference between non-verbal and non-speakers?

• 28:55Speaker 00

  Well, I think non-verbal is this idea, right, like that you're not able to make like language, you know? In a way where like speaking is just like they can be verbal, they can communicate, they just can't speak it.

• 29:08Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 29:08Speaker 00

  Just can't speak it.

• 29:09Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 29:10Speaker 00

  Without the supports of a communication partner like, you know, that is.

• 29:16Speaker 00

  The goal is to type independently.

• 29:17Joe Rogan?

  Do they make noises?

• 29:19Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, I think especially with apraxia, there's often a lack of body control, voice control. So there is like a beautiful soundtrack that I've come to love of non-speakers that will often be like some grunting or just lack of body control. And actually, I think if someone sees a non-speaker out in public, one of the most loving things you can say is like, I know you can't control your body, I know that's not you, you know what I mean? Because the person in there might want to be doing X, Y, Z, but just cannot control their body. And imagine how frustrating that would be.

• 29:51Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 29:53Joe Rogan?

  So these people, they're non-verbal, and when you say that they can speak Portuguese, they understand Portuguese, do they write it? Like, how does this manifest itself?

• 30:07Speaker 00

  Yeah, so, I mean, there's one young girl I'm thinking of in particular, but there's this, again, this has come up now with, I don't know, 15 non-speakers that I've met. But the girl I'm thinking of, her, you know, she will work during the day with a paraprofessional and a spelling coach. You know, there's a, you know, in the education system, there might be two or three people in a room, and three people were in the room this day. And she started spelling in a language, and they didn't know what it is, so they looked it up, and it was Portuguese. And then she started spelling in Spanish, and they were like, this is wild. And she also said she knew hieroglyphics, and.

• 30:42Joe Rogan?

  What?

• 30:43Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 30:45Speaker 00

  And then they were like, well, how do we test this? Because if we know the answer, she'll read our mind and know. So they had to just-

• 30:51Joe Rogan?

  Which is wild, already.

• 30:53Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 30:53Joe Rogan?

  Like, you have to worry about this kid reading your mind. It might be bullshit.

• 30:57Speaker 00

  So they had to, like, look up pictures of hieroglyphics and not know what the pictures were representing. To be like, okay, here's the feather. I mean, I don't know what a hieroglyphic-

• 31:07Joe Rogan?

  Whatever it is.

• 31:07Speaker 00

  Whatever, a feather on top of a stone, or whatever the picture was of. And here's this picture and this picture. And then she identified them. And then they looked them up and they were right.

• 31:15Joe Rogan?

  Wow, all of them 100% accurate?

• 31:17Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 31:17Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 31:18Speaker 00

  Yeah. So, and I'm not saying, of course, not-

• 31:21Joe Rogan?

  What the hell is going on there?

• 31:22Speaker 00

  Not every, um-

• 31:24Joe Rogan?

  What is that?

• 31:26Speaker 00

  Well, I mean-

• 31:27Joe Rogan?

  Like, that is, that's beyond bizarre. Did you give her a Q and A form?

• 31:31Speaker 00

  I mean, I wasn't there for this. I, I, you know, her mom reported it to me and it has the email that she received from the staff. And so, you know, the staff is just like, this is what happened today? And, you know, because these individuals are spelling to communicate, it can take a lot of time. It can take a whole work and effort to get those, that information out. So anything that comes out usually, uh, I mean, a good spelling coach will ask this child first, right? Is it okay if I share this with your parents? Or is this private between us or whatever? But if they say it's okay to share, they will write a letter home and this is what happened. And, and that was in a letter home. This is what happened today.

• 32:04Joe Rogan?

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• 32:44Joe Rogan?

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• 33:01Speaker 00

  In our session.

• 33:01Joe Rogan?

  Your child reads hieroglyphics?

• 33:04Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 33:04Joe Rogan?

  What the hell?

• 33:08Joe Rogan?

  Like, what does that mean? Is that the Akashic record? Like, is this child, like, pulling from all the information that's in the ether? Like, what, how would you be able to read a dead language? That, I mean, what percentage of the human population can read that without AI? Without assistance? It's gotta be tiny.

• 33:29Speaker 00

  It's remarkable.

• 33:30Joe Rogan?

  Tiny, tiny percentage.

• 33:31Speaker 00

  I mean, from a scientific perspective, and this is one of the things that, um, there was a professor, Bernie Riblin, who first, I think, came up with this idea, and then I know Dr. Powell kind of expanded on it. Which Bernie Rimland first saw this kind of gift in non-speakers, I think in the 70s? I mean, a while back, and was like, ESP should be considered a savant skill. And Dr. Powell has talked about this as well. So savant skills, right, are study, are accepted by science. This idea that, like, how do you know the language, or math, or this or that, when you haven't been exposed to it? Or haven't been, you know, um, educated with even maybe the most simplest music skills, but now you're playing a symphony, right? So savant skills are, is being able to really excel at something that you haven't been taught.

• 34:12Speaker 00

  And savant, uh, there's people who are born with the savant skills, and also, sometimes you can mean accidental savant, so you get hit on the head.

• 34:21Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I read about a guy who got assaulted, and all of a sudden he could do complex geometry.

• 34:25Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, complex geometry and stuff like that. So, um, so what's wild is that the materialist scientific point of view accepts savant skills. We don't know where they come from, we don't know why, we don't know how people can know this stuff, they haven't been taught, but we accept them as these real big question marks as, as it's real. So what Bernie Riblin said, and later Dr. Powell, was like, ESP should be considered savant skill. These people know something, and we don't know how they know it, but they do. They haven't been taught it, they haven't been exposed to it. And that could be thoughts, it could be knowledge about the future, it could be knowledge about language. And, and... It's, it's, this is what the whole hope is about the telepathy tapes, right? Is that people will start to put money behind this research.

• 35:07Speaker 00

  Because for so long, research around this type of stuff wouldn't be funded because it would be just dismissed. It's impossible. It's impossible. It's impossible. And one of the moms in our, in the telepathy tapes who, you know, I love so much, her name is Manisha, she talks about her son. She goes, Akil is the data. You want to look at the data? You want the data? Like, look at my son. He's the data.

• 35:25Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 35:25Speaker 00

  And, and some of these parents are wanting, desperate for answers, you know? It's not, they're not in the question of if it's happening. They're wondering how it's happening. And I think I'm in that part too. Like, when the people that are just, is it possible? Is it possible? I think for most of us in this world, it's like, yeah, you're like 10 steps behind, man. Like, it's possible. It's not no matter if, it's, it's why. And that's my hope, is that this can, there's like a, the, the, the chains will be like, you know, let off the scientists.

• 35:53Joe Rogan?

  These children that can read things, are they typing it out like on an iPad? Are they writing it physically? How do they do it?

• 36:01Speaker 00

  Usually, um, so there's different forms of spelling to communicate. Often, there's like a, a letter board, right? Sometimes it's a stencil letter board that you poke a pencil through, so you really know when you get that letter. And it's really satisfying to like get, get the poke through. Sometimes there's like just a laminate board where you kind of point to a letter. Some individuals are typing into a spelling kind of app on an iPad, or there's different spelling like-

• 36:22Joe Rogan?

  Can they type?

• 36:22Speaker 00

  AAC devices, yeah. And then, and then there's, um, some individuals who end up going to the QWERTY key, you know, the typical keyboard that we all type with on a keyboard, so-

• 36:33Joe Rogan?

  So there's varying levels of ability in terms of using your body?

• 36:37Speaker 00

  Yeah, using your body. And, and the thing I think why spelling has been so, um, you know, there's such a stigma on spelling, and I feel so bad for individuals using spelling because they're in there and they are communicating, but people have said, oh, but you need the support, so these can't be your words, right? Like, like, for a spelling partner, let's say- You have to kind of learn to be a communication partner. You have to learn to, to really understand like the, the mind-body disconnect and what's going on with the non-speaker in front of you. And sometimes their bot- hand gets lost in space. So it's good to like pull the board away and like put it back in again. Or sometimes you have to cue them like, "Go for it. Okay, get that letter." Because that will help with their motor planning, right?

• 37:18Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 37:19Speaker 00

  So those supports are critical. But people will look at those supports and say, "Oh, well, that must mean they're not typing independently." But to me, that's as wild as saying, "Oh, you need reading glasses? You can't read." No, that's a support to help you read. You can still read if you've reading classes. And that's how I think of the communication partner.

• 37:35Joe Rogan?

  There's still no influence on the words or letters being choo- chosen.

• 37:38Speaker 00

  No.

• 37:39Joe Rogan?

  No.

• 37:39Speaker 00

  No. And I think one of the things, so, but there, the stigma, I think, that really started for spelling was facilitated communication. Actually, this is like the first thing you ask, so we're coming full circle. So for a long time, there was just no hope of getting, you know, people who weren't verbal non-speakers out. There just wasn't. And then all of a sudden facilitated communication came along. And it was developed, I think, in Aus- in Australia, I think. And, but this was ideas of, you know, put some pressure on someone's wrist so they can really feel where they're at in space, right? Like, they'll be able to, to, to spell. And it was a miracle. I mean, it was all over the news. This was great. And some of the first parents that were using facilitated communication started to report,

• 38:24Speaker 00

  reporting, there's telepathy involved. And this was at Syracuse University in the 90s. Syracuse knew about this and started kind of bearing that information. And, and there was a lot of like, kind of, you'll be let go if you're teaching this and you're talking about this. So there was kind of big cover-up. So this, this was new. This is not new that this was going on. But then, there were some claims of, you know, sexual assault. There's awful things that happened where what was being claimed Didn't happen. And so people started blaming facilitated communication. Oh, well, maybe they're pushing their hand or doing this or doing that. And I think for a lot of people who train in facilitative communication, you're using your hand to put pressure so the individual knows where their body is in space, but you're not pushing their hand. But there probably are some cases where that had happened.

• 39:08Speaker 00

  Well, anyway, so then it got kind of just stigmatized, right? It's pseudoscience, this is not blah. And then, so spelling evolved into these forms where it was like, no touch, do not touch. And so many of those spelling groups now are helping individuals. And the big tenet of this is you cannot touch them. And that's where spelling's at now, is that you learn to communicate and there's no touch involved. But I'm one of these people that thinks like, whatever the individual needs to help them communicate, it's okay. If you need a little touch so you know where your arm is, or sometimes it helps you go faster if there's a little push, like, I think, go for it. You know, help these individuals get out there.

• 39:44Joe Rogan?

  Right. This touch is not guiding them towards specific letters. This touch is just an affirmation, just to help them.

• 39:51Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 39:52Joe Rogan?

  To help them relax, to help them connect.

• 39:54Speaker 00

  Yeah, and it was really, you know, on set sometimes because every once in a while, some parents like hold the board and hold it there for their child. And we would use these like dry erase, you know, markers on the screen to be like, is the board moving? And it wasn't.

• 40:08Joe Rogan?

  You know, it would be really interesting to get them in front of some scripts that are very difficult to read. That's why I brought up cuneiform and Sumerian and maybe even that crazy Voynich manuscript. You know what that is?

• 40:21Speaker 00

  No.

• 40:22Joe Rogan?

  The Voynich manuscript is a book that is of an unknown language.

• 40:29Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 40:29Joe Rogan?

  And it's highly detailed and they don't know what it is. They don't know the language. They don't know if it's a fraud.

• 40:37Speaker 00

  Oh, look at this.

• 40:38Joe Rogan?

  This is the Voynich manuscript. They don't know when it emerged. They, there's a lot of suspicion that someone created it and tried to pass it off and sell it as an ancient language in a book. But then some people disagree with that because they think that the way the words are constructed seems to be in some sort of a uniform way. It's not gibberish. It's not nonsense. But they do not know what it says. Obviously, I don't know jack shit about ancient languages, so I'm not the right person to be. Determining who's correct and who's, who wants it to be correct. So they're saying that.

• 41:18Speaker 00

  Wow. I have not, never heard of that.

• 41:21Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. What is the current state of, go, uh, yeah, let's see what it says, whether they think it's real. Is there like a synopsis on what people think is? There's facsimiles. Interesting. Many, okay. Uh, University of Bristol subsequently removed a reference to Cheshire's claims from its website. What is the website? Uh, Cheshire published its translation in the fold out illustration in 2023. He claims depicts a volcano theories, uh, that it places a manuscripts creator near the island of Volcano, which was an active volcano during the 15th century. However, experts in medieval documents disputed the interpretation vigorously.

• 42:04Joe Rogan?

  Approached for comment, Lisa Fagan Davis gave this explanation. As with most would be Voynich interpreters, the logic of this proposal is circular and aspirational. He starts with a theory about what a particular series of glyphs might mean, usually because the words proximity to an image that he believes can interpret. Okay. So they don't buy that this, um, interpretation of it is real, but they, they're pretty sure it's a language, which is just fucking insane. Scroll up a little higher. Is there any debunkings of it?

• 42:37Speaker 03

  These are different people that have made, uh, interpretations and they seem to, no one really.

• 42:41Joe Rogan?

  No one figures it out.

• 42:42Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 42:43Joe Rogan?

  No.

• 42:43Speaker 03

  Various.

• 42:44Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 42:45Speaker 03

  Discussions.

• 42:46Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 42:47Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 42:48Joe Rogan?

  Imagine if you can get that in front of a non-verbal kid and he's like, oh, I know what that is.

• 42:52Speaker 00

  I mean, that'd be pretty wild. That'd be pretty wild.

• 42:55Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. Jesus wrote this. Like, oh, he says he's coming back in August. Like whatever it is. Um, I mean, there's just the fact that the, the child can read hieroglyphics is insane. I would love to see like cuneiform or Sumerian in particular. Uh, we had a, uh, an ancient language scholar named Wes Huffon. And he was explaining how a lot of these interpretations were of like the Sumerian texts, which is the oldest version of, you know, a lot of. Of these like biblical stories, in fact, he was like, I can't read it. He goes, I've, I can, I can read all these different languages, but this one is so different than all the others. And it doesn't have anything that's like it.

• 43:35Joe Rogan?

  Like a lot of these other languages, you can find similarities in the way they're structured, the way the sentences is structured. There's none of that with Sumerian. It's like, this is a wacky language.

• 43:45Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 43:45Joe Rogan?

  He's like, I can't read it. And he was brilliant.

• 43:48Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 43:48Joe Rogan?

  So when you talk to a guy like that, who's humble about it.

• 43:51Speaker 00

  Right.

• 43:51Joe Rogan?

  But also like very well read.

• 43:53Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 43:54Joe Rogan?

  And he's like, I don't know what's going on.

• 43:55Speaker 00

  What does it?

• 43:56Joe Rogan?

  Give that to the kid.

• 43:57Speaker 00

  So interesting.

• 43:58Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I mean, it seems like there's a lot of opportunity to really get into that with these nonverbal kids. If you find one that, is there more than one that has this ability to do this?

• 44:11Speaker 00

  I mean, I can only comment on the people I've met, but I think of all the people that we're talking to a lot, you know, for the project and now the film. Yeah, I mean, it's definitely more than one. I mean, I'd, at least I know 15 or 20 who can, who seem to know various languages they haven't been taught.

• 44:30Joe Rogan?

  15 or 20?

• 44:31Speaker 00

  Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah, and one of, one of the earlier children that Dr. Powell was studying, this boy knew really a kind of odd languages, like Russian and Japanese. And I think he was five or six and could just speak in different languages and knew different languages. It's absolutely remarkable.

• 44:49Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 44:50Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 44:51Joe Rogan?

  And is there a, like even the most out there theory about what's going on?

• 44:59Speaker 00

  Um, I, I mean, this is the thing, right? There hasn't been a lot of research around this phenomenon. And, and I think I can only go again off of what spellers have said. I mean, one thing is that they say that there's a Neurology behind language, right? The current, the most baseline language is not with words. Words are these 3D objects that we attach to these thoughts and feelings. And that is the thing that they can understand, which makes sense. That would be what telepathy is, right? If you're not using words.

• 45:29Joe Rogan?

  Well, that is our version of telepathy. We make noise with our mouth and then you can read my mind.

• 45:36Speaker 00

  Right, yeah, kind of.

• 45:37Joe Rogan?

  Kind of, in a clumsy way.

• 45:38Speaker 00

  Yeah, but if you think of prayer, right, that's telepathy. If people who come back from a near-death experience and they say they have these communications with someone, you don't have a body, that's telepathy, right? Like, if a medium is talking to someone or getting messages from someone who's passed, like, that's telepathy. So it seems that the baseline, to me, like, all of this has proven for me that we have a soul. Or, you know, there's, or there's at least, if that word is triggering to someone, that at least there's a conscious body. There's a consciousness in each of us that, that doesn't need a body. Like, and so I think the, the language thing is like, we've put words over this thing. And that, but the, the telepathy, the baseline is there no matter what.

• 46:21Speaker 00

  And if you can understand the baseline of what's being communicated, the words don't matter. Does that make sense?

• 46:25Joe Rogan?

  It does. Yeah, it does. It's, it's hard to grasp, but it makes sense. Are you aware of the history of research in ayahuasca?

• 46:35Speaker 00

  Uh, I mean, I know what it is, but yeah, like-

• 46:38Joe Rogan?

  One of the more interesting aspects of it is when scientists first discovered it, discovered its properties, and they did experiments on it, they wanted to call one of the ingredients telepathene.

• 46:52Joe Rogan?

  But due to the rules of scientific nomenclature, they realized that it had already been named harmine. So this harmine is one of the ingredients. It's in one of the plants that's used to make this brew. But when the scientists explored this and started experimenting with it, it was quite, it's somewhere in the 20th, early 20th century. They realized that they could read each other's minds.

• 47:16Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 47:17Joe Rogan?

  And that they were communicating and that they were having a shared experience that seemed to be completely mental, but independently, they all verified the exact same thing.

• 47:27Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 47:28Joe Rogan?

  And so that's why they wanted to name it telepathy, which is a way more fun word than harmin.

• 47:32Speaker 00

  Way more fun, yeah.

• 47:34Joe Rogan?

  But this idea that we need something to access this dormant part of what is human consciousness.

• 47:42Speaker 00

  Yeah, and I think that type of stuff can really help, right? I mean, people, I think what's cool is that a lot of the research on psychedelics is kind of converging with this stuff right now, you know, around telepathy and the non-speakers. I think a lot of people have had these experiences on psilocybin or on an ayahuasca trip or whatever, where there's this realization that we're way more mental. There is a non-physical world that is out there.

• 48:13Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, there's something.

• 48:15Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 48:15Joe Rogan?

  And this work and Thomas Campbell's work, and there's a bunch of people who are considering this now, which I always wonder, like, if you get an enormous number of people that have a shift in the way they view reality itself, like, what impact does that have on reality?

• 48:37Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, I think that's a big thing, right?

• 48:39Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 48:40Speaker 00

  And I keep thinking, you asked about the pushback around this, and what's interesting is it's not just from skeptics who don't want to believe in telepathy and that the non-visible world is real, but also from people in the spelling community who don't want people to mention telepathy out of fear that it's gonna foil their efforts to make this like standard practice in schools. In fact, some of the teachers and others who've been involved in our project have been getting letters from the IASC, like a spelling group, saying, "Don't talk about telepathy or you're gonna have your accreditation taken away."

• 49:12Joe Rogan?

  Wow, I don't understand. Why would that mess with spelling?

• 49:15Speaker 00

  I think the fear is, I think, I think the fear is that...

• 49:21Speaker 00

  If you, um, I don't, I actually don't know. I mean, because most of the people I'm working with, almost all of them, every single one of the people I'm working with has, sees this as happening in their homes and their classrooms. And it's not just teachers and parents and ministers and rabbis and parapsychologists and speech pathologists and occupational therapists. Like, these are all the people reporting it, right?

• 49:43Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 49:43Speaker 00

  And for them, I think the thing is, truth is never harmful. It might be difficult, but it's not harmful. And what this truth means is that we have to change our systems, right, of education. We have to change how we think about things. And I think there is a deep fear of people having their darkest, deepest thoughts exposed. That's probably not comfortable for the government, for people in control, for people who are controlling people's money.

• 50:04Joe Rogan?

  Oh, I think that's common, whether we like it or not.

• 50:06Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. But, um, but why, I think this truth might be really uncomfortable for some, but it's so important to get out there. You can't accept and love someone as a whole being unless you can see and know all of them, right?

• 50:20Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 50:21Speaker 00

  And, and the only people I feel really in service to are the non-speakers who haven't had a voice and all the people loving and supporting them or who are saying, "This is real, we want this out there." And so, the gatekeeping around this has been massive. I mean, yes, from the science world, but also from the spelling world.

• 50:39Joe Rogan?

  But why from the spelling world? That's what I don't understand.

• 50:41Speaker 00

  I think, there's so many challenges of people saying, "Oh, because they're using these supports, these words aren't their own." And then I think there's this conflated idea, like, "Oh, if they know they're people of telepathy, they'll think their thoughts aren't their own either." And it's a weird idea, because just because you're talking to me doesn't mean that I don't have my own thoughts or words, right? Like, I can read a book, which thoughts are coming at me, it doesn't mean I don't have my own thoughts. So, you can hear thoughts, and that doesn't mean you don't have your own. I mean, so, it's like putting too much together that I think is, talking about telepathy's not going to foil spelling, but some people believe that to be true, and, um...

• 51:21Joe Rogan?

  It just doesn't make any sense to me.

• 51:23Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 51:24Joe Rogan?

  Like, why would any, I don't understand why spelling would even get involved in this.

• 51:28Speaker 00

  I don't know. I mean...

• 51:29Joe Rogan?

  Like, spelling... Is universally accepted as being important like

• 51:34Speaker 00

  Well, it's

• 51:35Joe Rogan?

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• 53:46Joe Rogan?

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• 53:57Speaker 00

  Oh, but this is the problem. Spelling is not, there are so, I just talked to a parent the other day who said, I've been trying to get a communication partner with my daughter in school so she can contribute, and the school system will not like pay for that. They're like, nope, you cannot have a spelling communication partner.

• 54:13Joe Rogan?

  But is that just a funding issue?

• 54:15Speaker 00

  Well, no, there's a group called ASHA, the American Speech Language, you know, Association, who accredits speech-language pathologists, and they say that spelling is pseudoscience, and I don't know how communication could be called pseudoscience.

• 54:30Joe Rogan?

  What?

• 54:31Speaker 00

  And so, if you're a speech-language pathologist, and you want to teach spelling in schools, that's considered like, no.

• 54:39Joe Rogan?

  Wait a minute, why would they say, I don't understand, what is the argument? That spelling is pseudoscience?

• 54:44Speaker 00

  This is such a controversy that it's just maddening. I think, again, it's because of those supports, like because, because you might need a part, because you need a partner to spell, it's considered, oh, well, you're not spelling independently.

• 54:57Joe Rogan?

  So, spelling is pseudoscience for non-verbal people, or non-speakers, I should say?

• 55:04Speaker 00

  Well, it's not, but, but ASHA is saying that, which is making it...

• 55:07Joe Rogan?

  And they're only saying this because of the touch, the ability to touch people while they're doing it?

• 55:12Speaker 00

  Well, most of these individuals aren't being touched. I think that the problem is, I mean, the problem is that no one's presuming competence.

• 55:19Joe Rogan?

  So, this is why it was confusing. You're saying spelling in regards to non-verbal people?

• 55:26Speaker 00

  I'm sorry, yeah, okay, spelling, okay, I should, yes, restate this. So, when, so spelling is kind of the catch-all phrase for, for pointing to letters to communicate, be it on a letterboard, or an iPad, or even a keyboard, like what we're used to with a computer.

• 55:40Joe Rogan?

  So, they're going by this old concept that it's impossible to have any sort of psychic ability, so if you're proving psychic ability through spelling, this is obviously bullshit without any examination of it.

• 55:55Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think that's a, that's a good summary.

• 55:58Joe Rogan?

  Back to what we were talking about before, that they don't want to be foolish.

• 56:01Speaker 00

  Right. So, this is a compounded issue, but one thing that's kind of, I thought this was fascinating, is that... Any type of like alternative form of communication has gone through immense battles to be validated. Like, oh my gosh, sign language. And I think in the 1800s, there was a conference in Milan where everyone's like, we cannot teach sign language. Like, this is, people need to try to speak, you know. Sign language went through battles for, I mean, over 100 years to try to even get accepted as a real language. And it wasn't until the 70s or 80s when that happened. And then Braille, Louis Braille, who invented Braille, the people at the school where he invented it was like, you guys can't use this. We don't

• 56:42Speaker 00

  accept this. And we don't believe you can read by touching dots. And we don't believe you can type by poking holes. That's impossible. That seems nuts. So when they did, they would do these tests with Louis and other students to be like, okay, you write one word and you spell, you know, and you read it with your dots. And they did. And then they'd say, it's fake. They planned it. They pre-planned the words. And it wasn't until multiple, you know, variations that finally Braille was accepted. And now we're seeing the same thing with spelling to communicate. They need a communication partner. Just like, to read, you need glasses. It doesn't mean they're not communicating on their own. They just need someone to help support their motor control.

• 57:18Joe Rogan?

  Got it. So you're just using the term spelling in a different way than most people are accustomed. That's why I wanted to clarify.

• 57:24Speaker 00

  Yes, yes, yes.

• 57:25Joe Rogan?

  Super confused.

• 57:26Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 57:27Joe Rogan?

  It's, so that seems like that's on them. I mean, if there's evidence that it works, like, they should be brought up and people should say, like, what you're doing is a disservice, like, a huge disservice for, for whatever reason, for your own ego, for your own

• 57:42Speaker 00

  Well, yeah. I mean, you think about it, right?

• 57:44Joe Rogan?

  Preconceived notions.

• 57:45Speaker 00

  For now, you know, decades, if you have apraxia and you're a non-speaker and you're considered you're not in there, people will, will treat them, put them in school systems where they're trying to teach them to like behaviors that are impossible if you can't control your body. And then often teach them over and over, colors and shapes, and teach them like they're, they're not getting it, that they're not smart. So they've been robbed of their education. They've been robbed of an entire livelihood. So to admit that we've been wrong about this entire population and educating them wrong, I mean, that's a lot of reckoning. That's a lot of wrong. And ABA therapy, which is now what kids go into, is a multi-billion dollar industry. And I think that they profit very much so from having kids go into this type of therapy.

• 58:28Speaker 00

  And I think ABA therapy can be helpful for some people, it can be, you know, but for a lot of non-speakers with apraxia, it's like traumatic because you're taught-

• 58:36Joe Rogan?

  What is ABA therapy?

• 58:37Speaker 00

  It's behavior therapy. And that's like what insurance will cover if you have-

• 58:42Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, there we go, insurance.

• 58:44Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm, yeah.

• 58:45Joe Rogan?

  To get to the root of it.

• 58:46Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm, yeah.

• 58:47Joe Rogan?

  The industry.

• 58:48Speaker 00

  I do think it is, I think there's a huge financial gain, ABA therapy and Astra, and I think it's all in bed together.

• 58:52Joe Rogan?

  God, money fucks up everything.

• 58:54Speaker 00

  It does. But if like anyone listening to this, the number one thing is that like, if you think of a human rights violation, right? You, that non-speakers aren't allowed to go spell in schools to communicate, to participate socially.

• 59:06Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 59:06Speaker 00

  You know, because these are individuals with ideas and thoughts and career hopes and want to date and want to have friends and want to be involved. And, and yes, they can't control their bodies, but they can do, they can communicate. And to be leaving them out because, oh, we can't afford or we don't believe that you should have a communication partner in school, it's so, it's just mean. It's a human rights violation, I think.

• 59:30Joe Rogan?

  It's bizarre.

• 59:31Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, that's, yes, it's also very bizarre.

• 59:33Joe Rogan?

  And it's just, it's, it makes sense when you connect it to insurance and money and in an industry, that's where it gets gross.

• 59:40Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 59:40Joe Rogan?

  They're, they're against the competitors.

• 59:44Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 59:44Joe Rogan?

  Which is, which is probably truth.

• 59:46Speaker 00

  Yeah. Because if spelling, if you could be, if, if they'd say, hey, we will approve for spelling to be covered by insurance, every family could go do this. Right now, you've just spent thousands of dollars, often go to a conference, do an online thing, it's not cheap, it's not affordable, it's not easily accessible. I mean, it can be, depending on where you live, right? But like, but it's, it's not easy. That would be a lot more money to go away from ABA therapy.

• 1:00:08Joe Rogan?

  Right, of course. God, it's always the root of it all.

• 1:00:13Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:00:13Joe Rogan?

  You get to it, there's someone who's profiting and doesn't want to stop profiting.

• 1:00:17Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:00:17Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. And the whole industry of a bunch of people working and, yuck. So, you first recognize that there is some sort of an ability. When do you start expanding your idea of what children can and can't do? What, what, what they can and can't see? Like, when, when does it get to where you're at now?

• 1:00:45Speaker 00

  Um, so.

• 1:00:47Joe Rogan?

  Like spiritual gifts, when you start accepting those kind of things?

• 1:00:51Speaker 00

  Yeah, I, I think the corroboration of person after person after person was really helpful, you know?

• 1:00:58Joe Rogan?

  Do you remember like the first one that made you reconsider or consider?

• 1:01:02Speaker 00

  Well, okay, so the telepathy was definitely that, okay, that, that became pretty quickly. And it was really funny too, as how like the people are working on this, like on my crew and my camera guy and stuff. My DP Michael like would quickly, we were all kind of like, okay, this is happening. Like you'd get almost bored seeing it, like because it became so common and so easy that like the telepathy quickly became unimpressive, which is

• 1:01:22Joe Rogan?

  That's so nuts.

• 1:01:23Speaker 00

  So wild to say out loud. But then it would be, um, like I remember Houston, who's a beloved individual, um, um, both in my life and also in the project and his mom as well. He, he had this relationship with stones where he could feel like the energy of crystals. And Katie, his mom is, you know, evangelical and, and didn't put much stock into any new age thing. And I think she went to get a massage and they gave her like a bag of crystals and stuff. And she was like, come on, and kind of put those in her, you know, bathroom upstairs behind one door and, you know? And Houston came home from school, like ran into the primary bedroom and then went to the bathroom and found the rocks and like was so excited and put them in lines next to his bed and wanted to put his head next to them.

• 1:02:07Speaker 00

  And he could feel the energy coming from these stones. And I always thought, okay, people believe in stones and maybe they matter because people believe in them. But like, I didn't actually think they had energy or like healing gifts. And here's Houston going, feeling the stones. So that made me think, what? Okay, maybe there's something here, enough individuals saying they could see auras around plants and, and animals and people. So that was something I started being like, okay, there's, this is happening enough and enough that I believe that. And then, um, the language was the next thing and that was pretty remarkable. And I'm not saying every non-speaker has these gifts. I'm just saying the people that I've met that have been a part of this project and there's an awful lot to do.

• 1:02:46Speaker 00

  And I think probably the gifts change per person too, right?

• 1:02:48Joe Rogan?

  How often do you see the language thing?

• 1:02:53Speaker 00

  You know, I should send out another questionnaire, but probably every five individuals.

• 1:03:00Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 1:03:01Speaker 00

  You know, but that's a rough number, but it would be interesting to like, survey.

• 1:03:07Joe Rogan?

  Are there any other data points that would indicate that someone would be more likely to have these language skills? Is there any factors about these individuals, like the differences in their conditions or the environment?

• 1:03:24Speaker 00

  Well, this is one thing that has been really remarkable, I think, especially since the telepathy tapes came out, is how much belief and just like acceptance of these type of things matters for them to show themselves, right? So, I was talking to a parent the other day, who's not in the telepathy tapes, of someone I've met through this, and she said, "Look, my son, after the telepathy tapes came out, you know, he's about 19, said, 'I need to come out to you, I can also read your mind,' but just never felt comfortable saying it because didn't think his parents would respond well, right?"

• 1:03:55Joe Rogan?

  Oh.

• 1:03:56Speaker 00

  And another teacher was telling me, "Look, now that this has come out, and like, I've realized this to be a truth, in her clinic or classroom, she will do 10 minutes for thought sharing in the beginning of the day, where they can all talk telepathy and hang out, and she said, it's like the one of the only times when they're all quiet, and they're just thought sharing." And she said that, you know, now that telepathy is out, more and more parents are like, being told this and, you know, accepting it, because when I fell into this world, before the telepathy tapes was out in the world, almost every single parent or teacher I met was like, thinking this was an individual miracle happening alone in their house, they couldn't tell anyone, even sometimes the spouses were fighting. I met one parent once, not in the telepathy tapes, but you know, I met her in the journey,

• 1:04:40Speaker 00

  and she said, "My husband wants to take my child away because he thinks I've lost my mind by saying that this is happening."

• 1:04:46Joe Rogan?

  Oh, Jesus.

• 1:04:47Speaker 00

  So, you know, so now that it's out there, I think it's, it's interesting about it. If you have kids, right, like if you believe in your kids, I believe you, I believe in you, it makes a difference. The placebo effect.

• 1:04:59Joe Rogan?

  Sure.

• 1:04:59Speaker 00

  We know placebo effect works. If you believe in something, it makes a difference. So, when you say to a non-speaking individual, like... I want to know all of you. I'm excited to know all of you, even if that means that nothing you can tell me is gonna scare me or make you love you less. Or, you know, I think that's a cool way to approach anyone, really.

• 1:05:19Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, certainly. And I think skepticism and cynicism is probably also contagious. You probably feel that that negative doubting energy.

• 1:05:29Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:05:30Joe Rogan?

  Which is very suppressing. You know, just like, and if you're already nonverbal and you're already like dealing with a lot of other stuff, like that negativity on top of it, you'd probably not wanna even try.

• 1:05:43Speaker 00

  Right, yeah. Yeah, there's a shame, but I think.

• 1:05:48Joe Rogan?

  Just negative feelings.

• 1:05:49Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:05:50Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. What, do you, do you think this is something that you have?

• 1:05:57Speaker 00

  I think we all have it. I mean.

• 1:05:59Joe Rogan?

  Have you, have you tried to encourage it in yourself, or have you tried to explore it?

• 1:06:05Speaker 00

  Um, well.

• 1:06:09Joe Rogan?

  Because I would imagine, like, if I was doing this work, I'd be like, let me see if I can do this.

• 1:06:14Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. And I, for sure. And I will, you know, I often pray at night and sometimes I'll also just beam out thoughts to some of the non-speakers of my life and hope they catch them, you know?

• 1:06:30Speaker 00

  And, you know, they're loving thoughts usually, of course. And then there's been a few times where I'll see a non-speaker that maybe, you know, I've come to know and love in a dream, and they're communicating something to me, and I'll write the parent in the morning and say, can you ask so-and-so if they were trying to communicate X, Y, Z at all, or, you know, were they trying to communicate with me last night, is usually what I'll say. And they'll say, oh, yeah, they wanted you to know blank, blank, blank, blank, blank. And it'll be what happened. So, but that's only happened in dreams, not in real life. I mean, dreams are real life, but, yeah, so I think, I think this, I think the more people are open to this and practicing it. It's there. You'll get there.

• 1:07:13Speaker 00

  And a lot of teachers are able to get it back, two-way telepathy, where they can start hearing their students back.

• 1:07:19Speaker 00

  And they said, you know, there's a teacher, and I love this story because she, I heard her on a podcast, actually. And it was sent to me, and I was like, two years into my journey. And this teacher thought, no one else in the world is going through this. And she said, there's a student, and he's telepathic, and he can read my thoughts. And then all of a sudden, I started being able to hear him back. And I'd be cooking dinner, and I'd hear him. Or, and he would tell me things, he'd just pop into my mind. And he was younger, so I had, she had a set parameters, like, you can't come into my mind all the time. But she said that in the classroom, then, they started being able to teach, just to do the whole thing, the whole lesson, without talking. She'd ask him something in his head, he'd start typing it. She'd ask something else in his head, he'd start typing it. And that was something that, like, a lot of teachers have expressed that, or speech pathologists.

• 1:08:03Speaker 00

  And, and I've often wondered, why is it easier for the educator, you know, instead of the parent? And I think it's because parents put so much stuff on our kids, right? Like, if I'm watching my son play basketball, and he's not boxing out, and he's not doing this, I'm like, oh, good, oh, good, can't even watch, you know? But if it's someone else's kids, I'm like, oh, they're five, they're just learning, you know? I have no care if anyone else's kid is doing this. But, um, so I think with our kids, we put all this baggage on them, even if we're not intending it. Like, the energy is so great, where if it's just free, and you're just wide open, and you're just ready, I think, some cool bond can often happen between, between anyone, but certainly, at least what my experience has been, more educators than parents that goes into this two-way thing.

• 1:08:47Joe Rogan?

  This teacher, did they explain what the sensation was like, like, hearing the words in her head? Like, how did they, how did they receive these things?

• 1:08:57Speaker 00

  So, at this point, there's a lot of teachers, so I have, like, a little bit more data points on this. And for her, she was hearing, like, a voice in her head, very clear, you know, very clear.

• 1:09:05Joe Rogan?

  Was she hearing, that she interpreted as the child's voice? Was it a child's sound?

• 1:09:10Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, and that's what's so cool, is for some of the individuals who've kind of gone through this will say, you just know it's their voice, even though they don't have a voice in the real world. Like, you just know it's their energy imprint, right? Like, this is their voice. And, but then, I've met some teachers who are like, no, it comes in as like a visual... A visual package, if you will, right? Like, or one of the most beautiful things I heard from a mom in England, and I think her story is great because she knew this was going for years, was scared to put it out there. She finally did. I'm not getting any younger, I'm putting it out. And then, of course, there's a lot of parents around England that were like, me too, me too, me too, this is happening to me. And she once explained it to me the most beautiful way. She said, like, if you say the word with a word, Thanksgiving, you've just said the word Thanksgiving.

• 1:09:52Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:09:53Speaker 00

  If you send it telepathically, you receive the smells, you receive sleeping in your childhood bed again, like your crotchety uncle who's mad about that, like the game of, you know, the sound of the football game, maybe snow, you're, this person walking with the pie, like, the prayer you say, whatever it is, all the things that make your experience that comes to you. And there's no, there's no misunderstanding what this means and feels and is, and it's this whole expansive idea. So I think she receives things that way.

• 1:10:21Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 1:10:22Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's really cool.

• 1:10:23Joe Rogan?

  Hmm. It's so cool, but it's also because of the cultural restrictions that we have put on the idea of telepathic communication, even while you're saying this, and I'm so fascinated and I believe it for sure, part of me is like, shut up. You know what I mean? It's like, that part of you is strong.

• 1:10:47Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:10:48Joe Rogan?

  That, and I wonder if that part of us, unfortunately, because of all the charlatans and because of the cultural restrictions on just the concept of telepathy, I wonder how much of that holds us back. Because there's some things that you do know, and you don't know why you know them, you know? And if you're a person who goes on instincts, you'll follow those instincts and you go, I have no idea how I knew that was the right thing to do. But it was.

• 1:11:16Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean, look, I think, one thing is experiencing something, you just believe it, like I said. And I think anyone who has engaged with

• 1:11:28Speaker 00

  Walks into a room with a non-speaker going, "Do this," which, from my experience, has been quite a few. It's not hard to see. It's pretty easy to witness it. And so, when you experience something over and over and over again, right? It's like, are all these parents and teachers all around the world, and speech pathologists, and principals, and ministers, and rabbis, and everyone who's witnessed this lying? Did they all come in this great conspiracy to decide that, like, we're gonna trick the world? Or they're experiencing something and telling the truth? And the first one is out there. That's like, the most impossible thing to imagine. The other thing I want to say, too, is like, there's a motivation for someone who's a charlatan, right?

• 1:12:11Speaker 00

  You want to make money off of someone or something, when especially when they're the most vulnerable, you're gonna exploit this, and etc., etc. Or it's for your own ego, your gain, or career, or whatever. You know, to date, because non-speakers have not been able to have the resources that they need to spell and engage in society, they've not been able to have a career, yet. I mean, some have, but very few. Or make money on their own, or, you know, be in the popular crowd, or have some cool whatever. And so, what's to gain? What is to gain? And it's also, it takes so much energy off, and to spell out something, I can't imagine that you'd spell out a lie. I mean, there's nothing to gain in this entire population talking about this, in silos all over the world.

• 1:12:53Joe Rogan?

  Right. And also, very few people engage with non-verbal people. So for this to be this very bizarre, sort of strange phenomenon that's happening with these people, you would have to be in that experience with those people to even be able to appreciate what's going on.

• 1:13:16Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:13:17Joe Rogan?

  I think most people, you know, we're so accustomed to talking, we're so accustomed to typing things out and communicating the way we do normally, that we don't even think about what the experience is like for both the parents and the child. And that this is a completely different way of living. So whatever these innate abilities that we may have, of course, they would be the ones who would have them. It kind of makes sense that they would be the ones that would be so tuned into us. Whereas us, we're sort of probably drowning those thoughts, even if they do exist, we're drowning them off with language, with cultural expectations, with social media, with news and...

• 1:13:59Speaker 00

  Yeah, with thoughts.

• 1:14:00Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, with everything, with all this. We're bombarded. We're never even alone with our thoughts anymore.

• 1:14:05Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:14:05Joe Rogan?

  We're just bombarded constantly 24/7. And I mean, this is the number one criticism about social media is that it's shaping your mind in a way that you're not even asking, you really don't have agency over it. You're just constantly being bombarded with data. And that data, whether you like it or not, even if you're objective, it's changing the way you interface with the world. These people aren't experiencing any of that. This episode is brought to you by LifeLock. Scams have gotten smarter because criminals use AI to flood you with fake texts, emails, and phone calls that are designed to be more convincing than ever. One wrong click can put your personal information and your identity at risk. So protect yourself with LifeLock.

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• 1:15:29Joe Rogan?

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• 1:16:12Joe Rogan?

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• 1:16:27Speaker 00

  I mean, I think they're probably experienced like I think they have so much input coming in, you know, that it can be overwhelming, but right, it's not informing their.

• 1:16:37Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:16:37Joe Rogan?

  They're not engaging.

• 1:16:38Speaker 00

  They're not engaging.

• 1:16:39Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:40Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:16:42Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's really. It's really remarkable, you know?

• 1:16:47Joe Rogan?

  Well, beyond, right? Beyond, because it changes the way we think about human beings. It changes what our potential is. I've always thought that it was an emerging aspect of human consciousness. But then as time has gone on, I think, I start to think probably more than that. It probably has always been there.

• 1:17:06Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:17:07Joe Rogan?

  We, you know, I mean, animals have weird abilities that we don't understand. Like the ability that birds have to navigate. We don't understand what that is. We don't understand how they're doing that, but we know they do it.

• 1:17:20Speaker 00

  Mm hmm.

• 1:17:21Joe Rogan?

  You know, and they, they have also, there's some ability that animals have to read electrical signals.

• 1:17:29Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:17:30Joe Rogan?

  To read magnetic signals. Like what is, what's going on there?

• 1:17:33Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:17:33Joe Rogan?

  What, what are they doing?

• 1:17:35Speaker 00

  You know, Rupert Sheldrake, again, who's in the project, he, he's the biologist from Cambridge. He talks about something called the mental field. And that was like a good handle for me to start to understand how this could be possible. And so by that, we know that fields can exist beyond something and we take it as part of science. Like we know the earth has a gravitational field. You can't see it, you know, it's there, but. But you know, it's real and we know that magnets have a magnetic field. We can, you know, you can't see it, but you know, it's there. And so his theory is that our mind has a mental field that extends outside of the brain. And this mental field can like overlap with someone. And that a great example of the mental field, if you will, would be when you see like a murmur of birds or a school of fish and they're all turning exact same time. They don't bump into each other. They're not like having concussions left and right.

• 1:18:19Joe Rogan?

  The bird ones, the wild.

• 1:18:21Speaker 00

  It's wild. It's like they do it, it's almost like they have a collective consciousness.

• 1:18:24Joe Rogan?

  And then the school of fish is essentially the same thing, but in the water.

• 1:18:26Speaker 00

  In the water. And it's like they have one mind, right? It does feel like one mind. And so this, this beautiful idea, it's not, it's not, it's just out there. And one of the things I came across that I absolutely adored as well was that Mark Twain, he had, he coined this term, mental telegraphy. And what he was responding to was kind of what we think of as phone telepathy, but that someone would write a letter. Let's say he wrote a letter to, I'm just gonna make something up, like Great Aunt Margaret, right? And he hadn't written to her in seven years and he postmarked it on March 3rd. Well, you know, maybe two weeks later, he got a letter from Aunt Margaret, postmarked March 3rd. And that would happen a lot in the time of letter swapping. That at the same time, both people thought of each other, they hadn't written to each other a long time.

• 1:19:11Speaker 00

  The letters were postmarked on the same day, you know what happened the same day. And there was like such a concrete evidence there of, wow. And so he wrote a lot about that. He thought that was fascinating, you know? And like Upton Sinclair, who wrote The Jungle, you know, wonderful author. He wrote a book called Mental Radio, where he was trying to do telepathy experiments with his wife. And she would think of something or vice versa, and they'd draw it out. And, and, and he had done this so many times that he talks about, this is real. I know this to be true because I've experimented it and heard, I can thought share. And so, you know, it's like, we have examples of this throughout recent history. But I definitely think if you go back to many native cultures, I mean, even the Vikings, the Druids, whoever, like, none of this would be shocking, right?

• 1:19:56Speaker 00

  It's, they're not gonna go try to prove this, this was part and parcel of being human. And I think it still is, but to your point, it's just been buried by the noise that we've filled up our lives with.

• 1:20:06Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, like our feet aren't the same shape anymore because we don't walk barefoot. You know, our feet are atrophied and gotten withered and twisted and weak. And that's one of the reasons why people wear barefoot shoes, right?

• 1:20:20Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:20:20Joe Rogan?

  Cause they wanna engage their toes. And if you don't, your foot atrophies and becomes weird. It just makes sense that your mind or these abilities of consciousness would also atrophy cause they're never used. Cause it's so easy to communicate with words. And it's the, and also you're dealing with other people manipulating those words and trying to decipher whether or not this is true or not.

• 1:20:40Speaker 00

  Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, you know, energy, right? You did martial arts and stuff. So you understand, like, if someone's energy, how it can impact you. And I think that like, most of us have some sense of like, you walk into a room and someone just like, ugh, they're killing you. Or like, if you're really, you know, I think energy is a real thing.

• 1:20:58Joe Rogan?

  Sure.

• 1:20:59Speaker 00

  But I think as far as like, these gifts go, or whatever, like telepathy, um, you know, we've all had that experience where someone's like, oh, I just knew the second they died, like, I felt it, like, I fell to the ground in my apartment and I have no idea, and then I got the phone call. Or, or my aunt came to me in a dream last night and said, I love you and I'm always here and whatever. And then like, the next day they get the phone call, their aunt died. And there's so many stories like that we hear, just in everyday life, right?

• 1:21:24Joe Rogan?

  Sure.

• 1:21:25Speaker 00

  So, again, like, it's just, if we sat back and really thought about this, this isn't wild, this is part of the human experience.

• 1:21:32Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:21:33Speaker 00

  And the non-speakers are just the great guides, yeah.

• 1:21:35Joe Rogan?

  It's, it's really weird to look at it in reverse, though, for me, because, like I said, I did think it was an emerging aspect, but now I think it's probably not. It's probably something that's been buried by our technology, or our progress.

• 1:21:51Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:21:51Joe Rogan?

  What we think is progress. It's easier to communicate with people with noises and saying, but we're probably missing this thing that used to be a part of us and it comes in these little blips.

• 1:22:02Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:22:02Joe Rogan?

  Little weird, you know, waves, especially heightened anxiety or heightened, you know, anytime you're stimulated in some sort of a way, which makes sense why with psychedelic drugs, which dissolves the ego, you would have more of those.

• 1:22:16Speaker 00

  Right. Right.

• 1:22:18Joe Rogan?

  This is.

• 1:22:19Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:22:20Joe Rogan?

  So have you tried to expand your ability in any way? Have you tried to meditate and tried to find where that is inside your consciousness?

• 1:22:32Speaker 00

  In the beginning, I think when I was starting to go into this, I was meditating a lot and doing a lot of stuff. But right now, I'm so focused on just getting the story out that it's like all my time is put on that. And I've kind of put my own like stuff aside for a little bit here. But I mean, meditation, I think that's the number one way to help open up anything mental, right? I mean, that's and meditation like 20, 30 years ago was considered kind of fringe and out there. And the idea that it could benefit you. Scientists looking into that were kind of like, oh, this guy is kind of off, you know? And now it's that those people were right.

• 1:23:09Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:11Joe Rogan?

  The response has been insane, like the telepathy tapes shot to the top of the charts. Like, everybody was talking to me about it and sending it to me before I ever wound up listening. Is that it's got to be gratifying in some sort of way that like at least people are responding to this and they're very excited about it?

• 1:23:28Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think so. And I think, I mean, definitely it's gratifying, but you know, the story behind that is pretty remarkable. And that's, I think, one of the things that was most gratifying because I never intended to make a podcast. You know, I was trying to make a documentary of this. And then the documentary became so big that I was like, oh, maybe I have to make it as docu-series. Like pitched it to a bunch of, you know, streamers and stuff. And I think people loved it and they were like, oh, this is such a good pitch and oh, my gosh. But like, ah, it doesn't fit our mandate. Like, what is it? It's not true crime. It's not this, it's not that. And so everywhere we pitched said, no, everywhere we pitched. And I remember going home and feeling devastated because I thought this was the most important news in the world. How could anyone like this is this needs to get out there and thinking it's the end of the road. I can't afford to go do a documentary of my own.

• 1:24:13Speaker 00

  I can't do this and can't do that. And I was just like, you know, and I thought this could be a good podcast, but I never made one. So then it was sort of like, this will be my final pitch. Like, hopefully someone will notice and then we can get the film funded. And so I made the podcast as just like a desperate, like hail Mary, like someone listen to this, please, and fund the documentary. And then it like went crazy. And it was what was so funny, too, is when I first started telling a lot of families and stuff about the podcast, they were like, I don't know if that's a great idea because spelling is so, you have to see it to believe it, to know that they're really not touching, that they're really communicating. Telepathy, you have to see to believe, like, none of this will work as a podcast. And it was just that lightning bolt again, you know, like, no, no, no, this is it, this is it, you guys, like, this is it, like, I just know, it was gonna be great.

• 1:24:58Speaker 00

  And they were like, uh, you know, and so the fact that it did what it did is just humbling and I think so well deserved for the non-speakers and those parents and teachers who are brave enough, right, to tell their stories finally.

• 1:25:09Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I'm glad you decided to follow that instinct. Because the podcast is the perfect way to do it, because podcasts are easily shareable.

• 1:25:16Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:25:16Joe Rogan?

  So that's how things really get out there. Someone tells you about it, you tell other people about it, you go on a podcast, tell people about your podcast, and that's, that's what starts it.

• 1:25:26Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, so, and I think the medium too, is so, I never realized what a special medium it is, because you're talking directly into someone's ears.

• 1:25:34Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:35Speaker 00

  And you're just in their mind, like, and just can talk to them for a few hours. And this was a story that needed some real long.

• 1:25:42Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 1:25:43Speaker 00

  You know, exploration.

• 1:25:44Joe Rogan?

  Also, it's fascinating. And that's what you really want out of a podcast, other than humor. You want it to be fascinating.

• 1:25:51Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:25:52Joe Rogan?

  You, you want it to lock in and excite you.

• 1:25:55Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:25:56Joe Rogan?

  And that certainly does that. And, and I think most people want to believe, you know?

• 1:26:03Speaker 00

  Yeah. Yeah, and I would not have put my time and effort and money into this if it wasn't real. I mean, it is, it is real, and people don't have to take my word for it, like, they could just go start working with a speller. And again, not all spellers, I think, maybe, I don't know, who knows? But I, I think these are, guests are pretty easy to see, if you start engaging with a spelling.

• 1:26:24Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. Well, it certainly seems like it. So what, so has the film started? Have you, where are you at right now?

• 1:26:32Speaker 00

  So, we, our first day of filming was yesterday, which was really exciting.

• 1:26:37Joe Rogan?

  Congratulations.

• 1:26:38Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, and so, um, We, yeah, we're off to the races. We have five non-speaking members of our production team, which is awesome.

• 1:26:46Joe Rogan?

  Oh, wow.

• 1:26:46Speaker 00

  So cool. Like, two are specializing in, like, working on graphics and depicting what things that they talk about look like, like the Chat on the Hill. I don't know if you've heard of this telepathic chatroom where non-speakers hang out. We can come back to that.

• 1:26:59Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 1:27:00Speaker 00

  And like, the realms where maybe they get information. So, or just even what it means to see auras, or to see stuff like that. So, we have two graphics, kind of advisors that will be working with the graphics house on that stuff. We have a scientific advisor who's going to help us figure out how to best do the telepathy tapes with the scientists that we'll be working with. And then two-story, kind of consultants. So, it's really cool to, for all five of these individuals, I believe it's the first paying job they've ever had. So, that's kind, it's just cool having them on our team.

• 1:27:29Joe Rogan?

  Oh, that's very cool. So, what is this Chat on the Hill?

• 1:27:32Speaker 00

  Okay, so, that was one of the harder things to wrap my head around. When I first met Katie in Houston, Katie said, you know, Houston talks about this telepathic chatroom where he can go hang out with his friends. He can kind of tune into this telepathic chatroom. And, and that, and he teaches there, too. And, and it's a place where they can commune and talk and encourage you to-

• 1:27:57Joe Rogan?

  He teaches in the telepathic chatroom?

• 1:27:59Speaker 00

  Yeah. Houston's, like, really special. He really is. And he's, and, and I think there are different roles that this person might talk about plant energy, and this person might talk about this. And I've heard this now from, well, let's just back up. So-

• 1:28:12Joe Rogan?

  How many people are in this telepathic chatroom?

• 1:28:15Speaker 00

  Well, I, I don't know. But, but, well, I'll get to that answer. Let me just, so, because I think that's an interesting thing. So, Houston started talking about this, what he calls the Talk on the Hill, which is this telepathic chatroom. And then, I met his good friend, John Paul, who's also kind of based in Atlanta. And John Paul would go up to his room and put four pillows on his head. And his mom was like, he's on the Hill. And this is what he does, kind of get everything out, all the sounds of the house, so he can really concentrate and get there. And, you know, she said he really has, like, developed a beautiful, like, relationship with his girlfriend on the Hill. And that, and I'm like, what on earth? So, I didn't know what to make of it. Only, I knew that it felt very real to these parents and, and, and these individuals. And, and people were talking about it in

• 1:29:00Speaker 00

  Atlanta. So, I thought, okay, this might be an Atlanta thing, that these individuals are doing this. They don't have to be in the same room, the same zip code, that they can, like, connect. And on the day I met John Paul- He was on the Hill at one point. And I asked that question. I said, how many people are on the Hill right now? And I think he wrote like 4,000 something. And I was like, holy cow, it seems like a lot. And he's like, well, people are really excited about the documentary right now. So everyone's tuning in to find out like what's happening with this. What? So I was like, whoa. And then, and then I just like buried that in my heart. It's okay, this is something that is real in Atlanta. And then I was talking to like the next big whoa. Again, telepathy tapes was not out yet. I met a minister in Arizona who had like the largest youth, like special needs youth ministry or something.

• 1:29:45Speaker 00

  And I was on Zoom with him because he was like, found out about the telepathy and found out about these gifts. And there was a person in his congregation who could predict the future and see things happening in other spaces in the world. And he was just, you know, I think we were connecting to be like, okay, yeah, you've seen this, okay, let's talk about this. And he was kind of going through his list of what he's witnessed with the individuals in his ministry. And one of the things he said to me was, I was on Zoom the other day with another young individual or another individual from Minnesota, getting these to connect. And they started talking about something called the Hill. They go to this place called the Hill. Have you ever heard about this? And I almost fell out of my chair. And then maybe like a few months after that, I was talking to a teacher and she goes, you know, some of my students, have you ever heard about this?

• 1:30:29Speaker 00

  They talk about going to someplace called the Hill. And one of them talks, says he goes there to learn about time travel. And the other one likes to talk about someone from Norway who talks about the bees and beekeeping and bee stuff. And at that point, I mean, my head is exploding, just like, wait, it's like real? Like, geez, you know? And then there's a father in Israel who I have talked to a lot about this over the years, and he's kept a really good track too of like how telepathy has been buried in the spelling community and in the education community and what's been going on and how teachers were getting fired. So he's fascinating. But one of the things he told me, he's like, oh yeah, we have a separate Hill in Israel where a lot of the Orthodox, like Jewish folks go and they have their own Hill.

• 1:31:14Speaker 00

  And then I would get some emails and be like, you know, there's also a hill in Arizona and Florida. Like, there's different hills. So, it's a mystery. It's a magical mystery.

• 1:31:23Joe Rogan?

  But they all call it the same thing?

• 1:31:25Speaker 00

  Yeah. And then I've also met, like, after the telepathy tapes came out, one family wrote me and said, hey, my son has said he has telepathy, no doubt there, but he can only do it with people in the room. But he's never been to the hill. How does he get to the hill? And I thought, I don't know. I guess ask another non-speaker who maybe can teach you how to dial into the right frequency. You know, I'm not exactly sure how that works. But it's really, it's awesome. You know?

• 1:31:52Joe Rogan?

  Now, is there one hill or is there many hills?

• 1:31:55Speaker 00

  I think there's a few hills.

• 1:31:57Joe Rogan?

  And have they verified that people who are communicating in this hill are actually communicating with these individuals?

• 1:32:07Speaker 00

  Yeah. And in fact, that's one of the storylines in the film that I'm really excited about. Like, one of the subjects is a young girl who's always felt pretty isolated. You know, it's hard sometimes to make friends if you're not able to communicate school or whatever. So, but she was bringing up names and has brought up names that her mom was like, I don't know. You know, they're not in her school. They're not in our periphery. They're not in any of our social stuff. And then, once the telepathy tapes came out, these Facebook groups sprang up of families that were kind of going through this stuff. And in that process, she found, I think, like, four of these individuals that her daughter was saying she was really good friends with on the hill.

• 1:32:43Joe Rogan?

  And they also say they go to the hill?

• 1:32:46Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. And so, we've corroborated all these points in this girl's life.

• 1:32:50Joe Rogan?

  Have you tried to corroborate actual distribution of information, actual communication?

• 1:32:56Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:32:57Joe Rogan?

  And you've done that?

• 1:32:58Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm. Yeah.

• 1:32:59Joe Rogan?

  Whoa.

• 1:33:00Speaker 00

  Yeah. I mean, that's, of course, like, you have to imagine, for everyone in this world, all the families that I'm close to, and teachers, and therapists, and stuff, it's still remarkable. So, anytime someone says something, we will try to validate it. Like, this person just said they saw this person on the hill. Can you validate they were there? And then, oh, my gosh, yes. What did they talk about? This was said, and this was said. Hey, this person says that person is on the hill and talking about blank. Oh, yeah, I can verify that that person teaches about that on the hill. So... Like, it's not like anyone is taking any of this just in stride. Like, we're just, you know, I think there's still that human nature, like you were talking about, that like, even the parents and teachers and me and the people on the front lines of this are still always trying to validate it.

• 1:33:43Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:33:43Speaker 00

  Like, this happened, was that true? Did you get that same thing? And then there's that moment of like, oh my god! Like, that's happening with all of us all the time, too. That mind-blowing, wow, that just, you know, bore out. It's remarkable when it happens.

• 1:33:55Joe Rogan?

  The hill thing is next level.

• 1:33:57Speaker 00

  It's next level.

• 1:33:58Joe Rogan?

  And why is it the hill? Why do they call it the hill universally?

• 1:34:01Speaker 00

  Well, Houston named it, the chat on the hill.

• 1:34:04Joe Rogan?

  He named it?

• 1:34:05Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:34:06Joe Rogan?

  How do the other kids name it?

• 1:34:08Speaker 00

  I think-

• 1:34:08Joe Rogan?

  They're all saying it as well, though, right? They're all saying the same term?

• 1:34:11Speaker 00

  Yeah, but, I mean, just like, you know, someone named this cup and we're all calling it cup, right? I think, like, it just spreads.

• 1:34:16Joe Rogan?

  So you think that child, Houston, he named it?

• 1:34:20Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:34:20Joe Rogan?

  And then everybody else accepted that name?

• 1:34:22Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:34:23Joe Rogan?

  He didn't hear it from someone else?

• 1:34:25Speaker 00

  I mean, he might have.

• 1:34:26Joe Rogan?

  But that's the question, right? What is the name? Like, why on the hill?

• 1:34:30Speaker 00

  Well, I've asked people that, and one individual's like, it just feels more like a hill of thoughts, like, just this, like, mound of just, like, thoughts and energy and, like, being, and so-

• 1:34:40Joe Rogan?

  I wonder what they're seeing.

• 1:34:43Speaker 00

  Well, we're working on that for the film. That's like, why we have these two graphics, um, non-speaker advisors, so they can work to make us understand what it looks like to them.

• 1:34:53Joe Rogan?

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• 1:36:16Joe Rogan?

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• 1:37:01Joe Rogan?

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• 1:37:18Speaker 00

  And then, actually, once the telepathy tapes was done, I started releasing something called the Talk Tracks, where we keep going with answering some of the questions. And one of them was this young man who reached out after episode two, and he's like, "I want to..." Help or volunteer for you and I was like, go work with some non-speakers. That's gonna be the best thing in the world. And he witnessed the telepathy right away. He witnessed a few other things. And he ends up in the first Talk Tracks episode, Getting to the Hill. And his story is really beautiful as to how, as a neurotypical man, he was able to do that. But people need to listen to it because it's really cool.

• 1:37:51Joe Rogan?

  So he figured out how to get to the hill?

• 1:37:52Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.

• 1:37:54Joe Rogan?

  And what does he describe it as?

• 1:37:56Speaker 00

  Well, he said it's divinely protected, that there seems to be-

• 1:38:01Joe Rogan?

  Divinely?

• 1:38:01Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm. There seems to be like some sort of guide there that like you can't just go in. Like Halliburton can't go rip it off, you know? Like there's like, like it seems to be guarded. And that only people with good intentions can go. And I think, I mean, I hope people don't try to start going there. I really, really don't. This is a non-spin. I know. It's like, one of the pains actually for me is that like, oh, and putting this out there like. But I do think the non-speakers are in charge there. It's their space, it's a beautiful space. And, and, and I don't think anyone can just get let in. You have to really be-

• 1:38:35Joe Rogan?

  Open.

• 1:38:36Speaker 00

  Open, but not just, but have a good, good intention.

• 1:38:39Joe Rogan?

  Right. Completely pure.

• 1:38:41Speaker 00

  Purity and love are a big part of this.

• 1:38:42Joe Rogan?

  And this person who's typical, regular person, got in there.

• 1:38:46Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:38:47Joe Rogan?

  Had they had any experience in the past with any form of telepathy before this?

• 1:38:52Speaker 00

  Well, the reason his story is so beautiful, so again, he's in episode one of the Talk Tracks. And, and what happened is he had, he was diagnosed with a really rare like autoimmune disease. And then like stage four cancer. And he kind of realized like, if I need to, I need to save my life, I'm gonna die if I don't learn to like think, control my thoughts. And, and he was able to cure himself. And he sent me scans and the cancer's almost all gone. But I think that, that attention to thought and how thought can change your world and dictate what happens in your world, really did something in his brain that allowed him to live in that mental space. And, and I think that helped him. I think that really helped him get to the hill.

• 1:39:36Speaker 00

  I mean, he talks about more about how he got there. And it took a few times. And for him, it was all audible. It felt like static and certain voices. But then he said, he did a few tests. Like, there was a, one of the students he works with, he's like, I knew exactly who it was. And I could hear their voice. I just knew it was their voice, even though I've never heard their voice. But I just knew it was their energy. I just knew it was them. And he's like, so I gave a test. And I said, I'm gonna tell you this person's name, and this person's name, and this person's name. And, you know, gave them kind of a bunch of information. And so when I see you next, you need to tell me this stuff. And then when he saw that person next, they wrote it, they spelled it out for him.

• 1:40:14Joe Rogan?

  Whoa.

• 1:40:15Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. So I do think the people experimenting with this have their own deep desire to get it right and try to validate stuff, you know? It's hard just to take on face value. How do you know if it's real or if it's in your own mind?

• 1:40:28Joe Rogan?

  Right. But the weird thing is, like, if this does, I mean, I'm sure you've opened up a lot of people's minds to this. And again, if this expands, and then we all agree that this is a thing, and that this is a possible thing. And then people start trying to figure out what it is and develop methods to try to tap into that. This could be a profound change in just society as a whole.

• 1:41:02Speaker 00

  Yeah. Yeah, and I think, the thing I hear the most, right, is people afraid of their thoughts being out there. But what's kind of cool-

• 1:41:09Joe Rogan?

  What's going on in your head that you're so worried about?

• 1:41:11Speaker 00

  Exactly. Well, that's-

• 1:41:13Joe Rogan?

  How about clean your brain out?

• 1:41:14Speaker 00

  Exactly. Clean your brain out. You're not gonna be afraid of that, right?

• 1:41:17Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, what's going on in your head that you don't want everybody to know?

• 1:41:19Speaker 00

  Totally.

• 1:41:20Joe Rogan?

  Like, what are your terrible thoughts?

• 1:41:22Speaker 00

  It's interesting. Because when people say that, I do, because- I mean, we all have certain stuff that like, who cares if someone knows us that way? It all happens to us, right? Like, you're worried about having something in your teeth or something, or like, you know, accidentally pass gas and whatever. Like, I mean, that type of stuff, I think, who cares? That, like, that's just being human, right? But when people are like that terrified, it's like, what the hell is going on with you?

• 1:41:44Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I think it's the concept of it, too. And also, the concept, I think there's the thought that if someone could read your mind, that you're more vulnerable. That you can't protect yourself, like, you know, like, if you're like, oh, this person's creepy, let me get away from them. Oh, you think I'm creepy? You know, like, that kind of thing. Like, that you won't, you won't be able to just, like, avoid people.

• 1:42:05Speaker 00

  I do think you have some control over it, though, and again, I can only go off of what I've heard from others, but like, one of the teachers who's been, just, she's been such an advocate and fighter in this world for years, trying to point to this, and she said the first experience she ever had around, maybe not the first, but one of the most cementing experiences, was she was gonna go visit a former student in class, and the night before, this is wild, the night before, she went out and picked, like, Swedish fish and, you know, some donuts and, you know, I forgot what else, pretzels or something. And so she comes in to give him his favorite snacks, and forgot them in the car, but she went and she sat with him and talked with him, and right before she was leaving the classroom, he took out a pen and drew, like, a donut, a fish, you know, and kind of drew

• 1:42:48Speaker 00

  the things that she, and it, like, rattled to her core, like, she, he knew what she was thinking the night before. And, and now that he's, you know, graduated, she still works with him, just as on a volunteer basis, for the sheer joy of just being with him, and she asked him years later, how did you do that? And, and, and he, like, were you remote viewing through me? And how did you know at that moment? And he's like, well, once, you were thinking of me, that was like my invitation to come in. Like, I won't just crash into someone's thoughts. It's like, I have to be kind of invited in by, like, you know, like, the thought. So, so I do think that there's a way to kind of control it, and I, I know that the teacher

• 1:43:30Speaker 00

  that was having the student jump into her brain a lot, the younger man, she said, like, you need to stop that, like, if, I will invite you in when I want you, but you can't just come into my mind whenever, that's not appropriate, you know?

• 1:43:41Joe Rogan?

  Right, right.

• 1:43:42Speaker 00

  And, and so, I think every individual's an individual, right? I mean, how this stuff works and is probably different for each person, but I don't necessarily think... You know, what many spellers have told me is like, good, good energy allows them to swap thoughts. Like, good juju allows them to do that. Being invited in, being open to it. It doesn't feel like they can just go into like, you know, the person running for senate's thoughts and be like, "Ah, actually you didn't fund the blah blah," you know?

• 1:44:11Joe Rogan?

  Right. The, the problem is, like, what if people get really good at that? Like, what if it expands? And then people are just entering into your thoughts all the time? I think technologically, that's gonna happen anyway.

• 1:44:25Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:44:25Joe Rogan?

  You know, it's one of the things that Elon has said about this Neuralink device that they're enabling. He said, "You're gonna be able to talk without words."

• 1:44:34Speaker 00

  Yeah. Yeah. But here's the thing too, right? It's like, again, I think most, almost every non-speaker I've met, their concern is love, unity, right? And so if, if your thoughts are other people, and your thoughts are loving and about unity, it's not scary then for other people to be reading your thoughts. You're gonna be caring about other people, hopefully.

• 1:44:52Joe Rogan?

  The real thought, the real scary thing is that there are a lot of people out there in this world that do not have thoughts of love and unity.

• 1:44:59Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:44:59Joe Rogan?

  They're damaged, hurtful, evil people.

• 1:45:02Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 1:45:02Joe Rogan?

  And they wanna destroy everything around them.

• 1:45:04Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 1:45:05Joe Rogan?

  And that those people could acquire this ability. But would they be able to?

• 1:45:10Speaker 00

  I don't.

• 1:45:10Joe Rogan?

  This is the thing. It's like, has there been any evidence that evil people have been able to acquire this ability?

• 1:45:16Speaker 00

  I, I would say, what I have found, and even talking to scientists about this, that the baseline for this is love. There's a wonderful neuroscientist named Julia Mossbridge, and she has studied precognition. And one of the things she does in these precognition tests is be like, "How much unconditional love do you feel for yourself, for other people, for the device you're taking this test on?"

• 1:45:36Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:45:36Speaker 00

  And the more people feel love, the better they do. And one of the things that I've heard from so many non-speakers with disabilities, that the baseline is love. That love, love, love is like the thing that unlocks this stuff.

• 1:45:48Joe Rogan?

  What do they describe love as?

• 1:45:50Speaker 00

  Anything that unifies. I've heard that over and over again. What's love? It's anything that unifies.

• 1:45:57Joe Rogan?

  Ah, wow.

• 1:46:00Joe Rogan?

  Huh.

• 1:46:02Speaker 00

  Isn't that the best description of love ever?

• 1:46:03Joe Rogan?

  It is. It's a really good description.

• 1:46:07Speaker 00

  So, and that was, yeah, very specific. Anything that unifies.

• 1:46:12Joe Rogan?

  So it's almost like they're tapping into some laws of the universe. Or laws of reality. That we kind of know by trial and error.

• 1:46:25Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:46:26Joe Rogan?

  But we don't, we don't, I mean, all you need is love, ba-da-da-da. You know, this is always, love is a ubiquitous concept. It's like something that everybody always agrees is very important to life and happiness.

• 1:46:42Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:46:43Joe Rogan?

  But we don't necessarily practice that culturally.

• 1:46:47Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:46:47Joe Rogan?

  Or as a society.

• 1:46:49Speaker 00

  Yeah. I mean, but you go back to like the, all the ancient religious teachers and thoughts, right? So much of it's about love and unity and we're all one and you might not realize this, but we're all one. And, you know, it's been interesting, like, there's a big question mark right now on how, how to do these tests and how to prove it. And, and when I brought that up to a few non-speakers, one of the questions is like, why do you need to prove this with instruments? Like, the biggest spiritual gift, the most fascinating one is love. That will cause someone to jump into choppy waters and save someone and risk their own life. It's had mothers, like, have so much adrenaline, they could lift up a car and save their baby. Like, love is the superpower.

• 1:47:23Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:47:24Speaker 00

  And it's like, that's, it's just, it's true. And they're like, why aren't you trying to measure love? And it's like, okay, good point, but still, people want to measure telepathy. And then that brings up the question of like, of, um, okay, well, is it best to do it like in a lab situation? That can be really stressful, that can be filled with a lot of skeptical people and throwing that energy at you. Or is it better just to go into your environment, take off the lab coat, learn a spell, go check this out? And you think of like, really good scientists like Jane Goodall, who, who, when she wanted to understand like, a culture of, you know, how the chimps were working, she didn't bring them into her lab. She went and like, lived in the jungle for months.

• 1:48:02Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:48:02Speaker 00

  You know, or you want to go look at the lightning bugs that light up in unison in Vietnam. I don't know if that's going to work out for you if you bring them back to Berkeley and put them in some building. You probably have to go sit in the jungle and wait for them to light up in unison. So it's like, um, Is it smart to be trying to test the stuff in our way, in our labs? Or is it better to be like, I'm gonna go chill out with you in your living room? And see how this works?

• 1:48:25Joe Rogan?

  Right, the reason why to test it with instruments is for skeptics.

• 1:48:29Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:48:30Joe Rogan?

  So, once we've all agreed that this is an actual phenomenon, this is a real thing, whatever this is, this is real.

• 1:48:37Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:48:38Joe Rogan?

  The best way to test it is really with consciousness.

• 1:48:42Speaker 00

  Yeah. Yeah, and you know, I think about this a lot, like the skeptics, because again, like I've said, the families and teachers, the people who, the people are like, let's just move the science forward. We know what's happening. We know, now we need to know how, not why, right? And, and I've thought about like, how skeptics can hold back that research and science? And like, how much time do you give to them versus like, just move on without them? And, and I was thinking about in the term of like, in the olden days, right? Like, if a voyager was going out to discover new worlds and people, you can't go find something that worth this flat and you're gonna fall off of it, or out there is a blah, blah, blah, blah. And someone comes back and is like, discovered Iceland, let's say. And it's like, oh my gosh, you would not believe it, like, geysers are coming out of the earth, and there's black stone beaches, and black sand beaches, and northern light, you know, whatever they're explaining.

• 1:49:25Speaker 00

  And they come back and some people will be like, wow, let's go explore it and find out more, and, you know, draw things of it. And, and some people might be like, don't go with them, don't go, don't even try it, they're making it up, it's not real, that couldn't exist, you're gonna die if you go. And I feel like the scientists, or the skeptics now, are those people on the shore being like, there is no Iceland, don't go look, and you're gonna blah, blah, blah. And it's like, that's such a, it's such a weight to forwarding thought and research, and this is such a cool, exciting new frontier.

• 1:49:54Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 1:49:55Speaker 00

  And, um...

• 1:49:56Joe Rogan?

  Well, the thing is, is like, there's levels of skeptics. There's people that are just objective, and they're like, I need data, I need to see something. And then there's people that, it doesn't matter what they see, they're never gonna believe.

• 1:50:06Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:50:07Joe Rogan?

  And those are the weird ones. Because there's a lot of people out there that are self-professed skeptics.

• 1:50:12Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:50:13Joe Rogan?

  Those are the ones that are the problem.

• 1:50:14Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:50:15Joe Rogan?

  Like, they call themselves skeptics.

• 1:50:16Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:50:17Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 1:50:17Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:50:18Joe Rogan?

  Well, how about just be objective?

• 1:50:20Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:50:20Joe Rogan?

  Well, don't just be skeptical.

• 1:50:22Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:50:22Joe Rogan?

  Because if you're completely skeptical and you're always looking for a negative, you're, you're, you know, you're gonna be biased by your own preconceived notions.

• 1:50:32Speaker 00

  Right. I mean, if you're, if you're only skeptical, you're a closed-minded believer, is what you are. You're not open-minded. You're as dogmatic as, like...

• 1:50:41Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:50:41Speaker 00

  As the next person who just believes their beliefs and won't look any further, this is it.

• 1:50:46Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:50:46Speaker 00

  That's not skeptical.

• 1:50:47Joe Rogan?

  Well, that's atheists.

• 1:50:48Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:50:48Joe Rogan?

  And a lot of, for a lot of.

• 1:50:51Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:50:51Joe Rogan?

  The, well, I mean, there's different kinds of atheists, too. There's some that I would just, I'd say they, they're self-professed atheists, but they're really more agnostic than anything.

• 1:51:00Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, but I would say, I mean, I would say I'm skeptical. Every time I hear something new, I'm like, can it be, that's gonna be, like, we gotta go test this. I don't know, we gotta find, okay, we gotta test it four or five more times, but like, be an open-minded skeptic.

• 1:51:12Joe Rogan?

  I don't even think that's skeptical, that's just objective.

• 1:51:15Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:51:15Joe Rogan?

  Like, because you hear about something completely novel and you're like, okay, what is it? What is that? Is this bullshit? Cause you know bullshit, bullshit's real, it's a real thing. Like, that's why skeptics are important, or at least being skeptical is important, because

• 1:51:28Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:51:29Joe Rogan?

  There are people that tell you, if you join my cult, you will, you will experience bliss and happiness.

• 1:51:34Speaker 00

  Yeah, totally true.

• 1:51:35Joe Rogan?

  We all give up our money to the guru and he has sex with all of us, but it's great. Like, what?

• 1:51:39Speaker 00

  Right, totally.

• 1:51:42Joe Rogan?

  So skepticism is important.

• 1:51:43Speaker 00

  It is important.

• 1:51:44Joe Rogan?

  It keeps you from getting hoodwinked.

• 1:51:46Speaker 00

  It does, I mean, yes, open-minded skeptical.

• 1:51:49Joe Rogan?

  Right, but this is the problem with not having the ability to read minds, right? Is that people can deceive you and you can't really tell. And some people are terrible at it for some reason.

• 1:51:58Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:51:58Joe Rogan?

  Like, some people just fall in line with the wrong crowd over and over and over again, and they never get it right.

• 1:52:03Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, that's so true.

• 1:52:05Joe Rogan?

  You have to be skeptical.

• 1:52:07Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:52:07Joe Rogan?

  Or you have to be able to read people.

• 1:52:09Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:52:10Joe Rogan?

  And that, what is reading people, though, right? Like, there's people that I've met that, like, right away, I'm like, this person's broken, I gotta get the fuck away from them.

• 1:52:16Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:52:17Joe Rogan?

  There's a famous story that, with my friend Brian, Brian Callen, who's a hilarious comedian, who always has the worst friends.

• 1:52:25Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:52:26Joe Rogan?

  Always. And one time, he showed up at this show that we were doing together with this gal that he was dating. And I met her for five seconds and I, and he'd always had the worst girlfriends, they were always just disasters. I get, I go, get rid of this one, please. I go, trust me, you, you gotta move. He's like, what are you talking about? I go, dude, she's crazy, this one's broken. And he's like, no, no, no. I go, dude, I am telling you right now, turned out she was a meth head, he didn't know, she wound up being a prostitute. Like, it was off-the-chart, but she was pretty and he just thought she was friendly to him, and so she was fine. And I read her right away, I'm like, oh, everything's wrong here.

• 1:53:03Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:53:03Joe Rogan?

  And he's like, how did you do that? I'm like, I don't know, I just knew right away, you gotta get away from her.

• 1:53:07Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:53:08Joe Rogan?

  And he eventually, one day, ran into her after they had broken up. She was street walking.

• 1:53:15Speaker 00

  What?

• 1:53:15Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, like that crazy, yeah.

• 1:53:18Speaker 00

  Poor thing.

• 1:53:19Joe Rogan?

  Poor thing, yeah. But it was like, I was like, that one's gonna drag you down, like, get out of there.

• 1:53:24Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:53:25Joe Rogan?

  But I knew. I don't know how I knew.

• 1:53:27Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:53:27Joe Rogan?

  I mean, it was a simple exchange, like, hi, nice to meet you, nice to meet you too, like, what the fuck's going on here? It was like, all my spidey senses were going off.

• 1:53:36Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:53:37Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, and it's not normal. That's not nor- that's not every day. It's not like everybody I meet, like, some people I meet are like, something's off.

• 1:53:45Speaker 00

  Right, something's wrong with you, yeah.

• 1:53:47Joe Rogan?

  You have to be able to go on some kind of instinct, we all know. And a lot of it is sort of pattern recognition.

• 1:53:56Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:53:56Joe Rogan?

  A lot of it is prior experiences with similar, the way similar people engage with you.

• 1:54:02Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:54:03Joe Rogan?

  And you're like, oh, I've seen this before.

• 1:54:05Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:54:05Joe Rogan?

  Like, this is a con man. Oh, I've seen this before. This is this, and this is that.

• 1:54:10Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:54:10Joe Rogan?

  But sometimes, sometimes it's just like, this is a bad person.

• 1:54:14Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:54:15Joe Rogan?

  Or this one's broken.

• 1:54:16Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So, yes, I think having some degree of skepticism can be good.

• 1:54:21Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:54:22Speaker 00

  Emotional intelligence can be good.

• 1:54:23Joe Rogan?

  I think it's objectivity, yeah, objectivity, to recognize that people that are deceptive are real. You know, and there's people that have ulterior motives, and these ulterior motives, you might not understand. And you gotta be able to, you gotta be able to throw everything through a filter. And unfortunately, until we can read minds, you're kind of going on these like, did you hear that? I think I heard something. You know, that's really what it's like, like, when you meet a person. It's like, there's something, I don't know, are you being paranoid? I don't know, you know?

• 1:54:56Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:54:57Joe Rogan?

  And then you can convince yourself that you are being paranoid, when you actually, you're not. You're actually accurate.

• 1:55:02Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:55:02Joe Rogan?

  And you're like, oh, you're being silly.

• 1:55:04Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:55:04Joe Rogan?

  No, you're not being silly. You should have followed your initial instincts.

• 1:55:08Speaker 00

  Right, exactly. And I think that's what has happened with, like, materialism being such a, for years, is that anyone who believed in anything would be made to feel silly, right? Oh, you're so gullible, or you're not smart. Like, intellectual people certainly don't believe in ghosts, or God, or whatever, you know, put anything in there that you can't measure. Right, yeah, exactly, the secret.

• 1:55:33Speaker 00

  And so that's been effective. No one wants to be ridiculed and dismissed and made to feel silly. I mean, even editing the podcast, like, I was so certain, I'm like, okay, well, episodes one through four, this last science is great. The one that took me weeks, like, I was in turmoil over, was having to, like, put out into the world that, like, the teachers were hearing telepathy back. Because I'm like, no one's gonna believe this, this is so hard, but it's like, you can't censor it, this is what people's experience is. And the whole point was to, like, put out the voices of people who've been completely dismissed and ignored and...

• 1:56:01Joe Rogan?

  Also, if love is unifying, the love of a teacher and a student is absolutely real. Like, and it's a special bond, especially really good teachers.

• 1:56:10Speaker 00

  Oh, my gosh.

• 1:56:11Joe Rogan?

  Really good educators have, like, this spec- because they really genuinely just want to help.

• 1:56:16Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:56:16Joe Rogan?

  And when someone did genuine, and you're a child that's vulnerable and confused by the world around you, and you're nonverbal, and there's someone with genuine love for you.

• 1:56:26Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:56:27Joe Rogan?

  Like, it kind of makes sense that those would be the people that bridge the gap.

• 1:56:31Speaker 00

  It's interesting, because I saw my best friend for college this morning, and her husband was there, and he was like, "Why is it so many women in the podcast that have telepathy? Like, can dads do it?" and whatever, and I was like... In fact, the first person Dr. Powell tested, did a telepathy test with, um, this girl was adopted, and she had the best telepathic bond with her father, you know? And I know a young man in Israel whose best telepathic bond is with his father and another, you know? So, yes, it does happen with dads, but I think there's more women who go into teaching and more women that do caregiving.

• 1:56:59Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:57:00Speaker 00

  And so that's probably why it looks like more women, but I don't think it's like a gender, gendered thing that mostly women have this. You know, I think it's whoever is in that, like, loving, open...

• 1:57:10Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I think men are generally more inclined towards brutish thinking, you know? And an ego and, like, silly ways of viewing the world. And then also preoccupied by their status in life and what that means to, you know, them and their worth as an individual. And all that stuff is a massive impediment to any sort of, like, real love.

• 1:57:35Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:57:36Joe Rogan?

  Because you're just so self-focused.

• 1:57:37Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's very...

• 1:57:39Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, and that's definitely a male trait, especially in this capitalism society, where you're constantly trying to achieve a higher level of status.

• 1:57:48Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:57:48Joe Rogan?

  And no one's satisfied, including billionaires.

• 1:57:51Speaker 00

  Yeah, right.

• 1:57:52Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, which is just the nuttiest thing of all time.

• 1:57:54Speaker 00

  I know.

• 1:57:55Joe Rogan?

  It's like, what is the point? You won the game.

• 1:57:57Speaker 00

  I know. Like, spread it out, man.

• 1:57:59Joe Rogan?

  The game's over. You should, like, you have this crazy opportunity with all this money.

• 1:58:04Speaker 00

  To help so many people and lift up, like, all of America.

• 1:58:08Joe Rogan?

  Also, why are you still just chasing numbers?

• 1:58:11Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:58:12Joe Rogan?

  In a ledger? Because that's what you're doing.

• 1:58:14Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:58:15Joe Rogan?

  You've got lost in this weird game.

• 1:58:18Speaker 00

  I actually cannot comprehend that. I cannot comprehend.

• 1:58:20Joe Rogan?

  I wonder if you could if you were super wealthy.

• 1:58:22Speaker 00

  Maybe.

• 1:58:23Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, and if you went down that path. The thing is, the one thing would be if you were super wealthy by some divine intervention, or someone just gives you money.

• 1:58:31Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:58:32Joe Rogan?

  You know, like, some crazy billionaire who's, like, a telepathy tapes fan. They're dying, and on their will, they say, "Listen, Kai, you seem cool. I'm gonna give you $2 billion." Like, what are you gonna do with it? Yeah, it's different. But if you went and tried to earn it, and so your whole life you were focused on these achievements, like, "I want to have a this and a that, and I wanna have, I wanna be, I wanna be important. I wanna be able to influence political parties, and I wanna be able to fly in my private jet. And I wanna, I want an island." You know, you get crazy.

• 1:59:05Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:59:05Joe Rogan?

  And then you're never, you never have enough, because the life's...

• 1:59:08Speaker 00

  Right, you don't have more and more.

• 1:59:09Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, and then you're around people. Like, we were talking the other day. This episode is brought to you by Armra. Every week, there's some new wellness hack that people swear by, and after a while, you start thinking, "Why do we think we can just outsmart our bodies?" That's why Armra colostrum caught my attention. It's something the body already recognizes, and it has hundreds of these specialized nutrients for gut stuff, immunity, metabolism, et cetera. I first noticed it working around training, especially workout recovery. Most stuff falls off, but I am still taking this. If you want to try, Armra is offering my listeners 30% off. Go to Armra.com. This episode is brought to you by Squarespace.

• 1:59:53Joe Rogan?

  If you're thinking about building a website, you should try Squarespace. I know because I use it. That's right, JoeRogan.com is powered by Squarespace. It has all the features that you need to create a standout website, like an AI-enhanced website builder, SEO optimization tools, and seamless checkouts with mobile pay links. Head to Squarespace.com/Rogan for a free trial. And when you are ready to launch, use the offer code ROGEN to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. Also, my friend Brian has a friend who's worth like $3 billion and he feels poor because he hangs out with these guys that are worth $50 billion. I'm like, that's so crazy.

• 2:00:38Joe Rogan?

  But that's the world that you live in when you're only thinking about numbers on a ledger. You've gotten caught playing a game.

• 2:00:46Speaker 00

  Right.

• 2:00:47Joe Rogan?

  You're playing poker, you have chips. You know, it's all just quantifiable, it's numbers.

• 2:00:53Speaker 00

  Well, none of it matters too. So who cares?

• 2:00:55Joe Rogan?

  Also, here's the real number. You got 100 years if you're lucky.

• 2:00:59Speaker 00

  Right.

• 2:00:59Joe Rogan?

  That's the real number.

• 2:01:00Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:01:00Joe Rogan?

  And if you're 60 and you're fucking...

• 2:01:02Speaker 00

  Right, yeah.

• 2:01:04Joe Rogan?

  You're almost at the end, buddy.

• 2:01:06Speaker 00

  Right.

• 2:01:06Joe Rogan?

  Like, what are you doing?

• 2:01:07Speaker 00

  Well, and I just, I always think about like the impact you're gonna leave behind. Like, what's your legacy? Like, you had a big boat? I mean, who cares about that?

• 2:01:13Joe Rogan?

  Right, what does that mean? You know, are you gonna be the person, "Well, when he died, he had so many things. I aspire to be like William."

• 2:01:21Speaker 00

  Right.

• 2:01:21Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of people that are like that. And they think about old, dead, rich people being, "Boy, he really nailed it, he killed the game." You know, and that's, you know, that's the thing that they have focused on, unfortunately. This is the problem with financial institutions, because they're like, if all you're doing is trying to acquire more money, well, that's your game. And your game is just do that. And then as you get bigger, you eventually reach a point where like, "Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey." You kind of control everything. Like, you control natural resources, you control land, you control building, your housing, transportation. You have everything? This is not good for everybody else.

• 2:02:00Joe Rogan?

  It's not good for everybody else for one entity to have so much power and only be concentrating on numbers.

• 2:02:07Speaker 00

  Right, yeah.

• 2:02:08Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:02:08Speaker 00

  Yeah, I don't know where that comes from. I mean, I guess if you grow up really rich, maybe that's it, or maybe if you grew up without anything.

• 2:02:15Joe Rogan?

  It's a competition. It's a subversion of what it's initially supposed to be. It's like when you put mandates on officers achieving a certain amount of arrests in a month.

• 2:02:27Speaker 00

  Right.

• 2:02:28Joe Rogan?

  Or even arrests in general, right? Or prosecutors, right? What's, what is a prosecutor's goal? To win.

• 2:02:34Speaker 00

  Right.

• 2:02:35Joe Rogan?

  They have, there's the competition. The competition is, I provide evidence that this person is guilty. The defense provides evidence that he is in fact innocent. And we sort it out. And if you're just trying to win the game, well, then you're a corrupt prosecutor. Because then you withhold evidence that might exonerate that person. Or you don't allow DNA, or you don't, there's, and there's a lot of that. I mean, I work with a guy named Josh Dubin, who's a friend of mine, who's, his whole thing is freeing people that are unjustly accused.

• 2:03:06Speaker 00

  I love that.

• 2:03:07Joe Rogan?

  And he's, we, just because of this podcast, a bunch of people are free right now.

• 2:03:11Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 2:03:12Joe Rogan?

  And the shocking stories that you hear about corrupt prosecutors.

• 2:03:16Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:03:17Joe Rogan?

  Where these guys get caught and it turns out there's hundreds of people rotting away in a cage that are innocent because of this one corrupt person.

• 2:03:24Speaker 00

  Jeez.

• 2:03:25Joe Rogan?

  And because they played this game of just trying to win.

• 2:03:30Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:03:30Joe Rogan?

  You know, and this is the same game. It's the same game of acquiring numbers, whatever you're trying to do. If that is what your game is, your game is just numbers.

• 2:03:42Speaker 00

  I, I mean, that just makes me wonder if like people believe there was more, right? Like if it wasn't just like, you've got this one shot and you're just gonna here and like tackle the numbers and be super rich and whatever, like, would making a difference and make, because it does feel like, yay, oh Pollyanna, like we're gonna just, you know, yay, love each other. But like, But if you really believe that there was something more, right? That like you had a higher purpose here, that you were more than just your body. I think, I mean, I think if you believe that to some degree, you're gonna act differently.

• 2:04:09Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 2:04:09Speaker 00

  You're more focused on difference than acquiring numbers of money.

• 2:04:13Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it's just hard to get through people that are completely lost and obsessed.

• 2:04:16Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:04:17Joe Rogan?

  You know, when someone is complete, like, say, a gambling addict, for instance. They're very hard to get to.

• 2:04:23Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:04:23Joe Rogan?

  Because they're completely lost and obsessed with this thing that they've become addicted to.

• 2:04:28Speaker 00

  Right.

• 2:04:28Joe Rogan?

  Which is all numbers.

• 2:04:29Speaker 00

  Right.

• 2:04:30Joe Rogan?

  Gambling is just all thrills and wins and losses and numbers.

• 2:04:35Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:04:35Joe Rogan?

  It's all just, I bet a hundred thousand on the game, and I'm like, I got five points on the spread.

• 2:04:40Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:04:41Joe Rogan?

  They cover the spread, then I win, and then I'm out of the hole. And then it's this roller coaster ride. And so it's very difficult to get to those people that are lost in whatever the game they're playing is. Whether the game is gambling addiction or financial addiction.

• 2:04:55Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:04:55Joe Rogan?

  Whatever it is, if you're lost in a game, it's very hard to get to those people. Especially if they don't have love in their life.

• 2:05:02Speaker 00

  Right.

• 2:05:03Joe Rogan?

  And so if all their status is acquired by numbers, by achieving this and pulling up in the brand-new Mercedes and wearing the fine suit and having the expensive watch, or whatever it is that your thing is that you want to show up with. And there's, in this world, this, especially today, there's all the lures and trappings to pull you into that. And you can never get enough, you know? You can get hand-purchased, I mean, hand-created this and, you know, rare that and a limited edition that. Oh, did you get the new one? Oh, and then, you know, you're lost.

• 2:05:39Speaker 00

  It's just, yeah, it just doesn't fill you up. I think it empties you out more, really, in the end, so.

• 2:05:44Joe Rogan?

  Right. But what it does do oddly is it promotes technological innovation. So, keeping up with the Joneses and materialism, one purpose that it does serve oddly is this constant push towards newer and better things. Which I think is also part of the purpose of human life in some sort of a strange way. Is that we are, we are pursuing technological innovation above and beyond everything.

• 2:06:12Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:06:12Joe Rogan?

  If you could see us objectively, if like you could see us outside of culture, outside of language. If you were an alien race and you're observing this weird species, like, what does it do? Well, it keeps making better stuff. That's what it does. It keeps making better stuff. It puts all of its resources into making better stuff. And it's obsessed with acquiring better stuff, even though it has a finite lifespan. It never recognizes, or rarely. It's an odd and beautiful thing when someone recognizes they have a finite life.

• 2:06:42Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. I was just thinking about that, what you're saying, and I was thinking, God, then every four years, aliens would be like, oh, but then they pass a torch around the world and they go and they compete in games. And the whole, and for like one small two-week period, they're all playing these games against each other. And then they like put the torch out and go home and put medals around.

• 2:07:02Joe Rogan?

  Right, but even that's subverted by numbers.

• 2:07:03Speaker 00

  Yeah, it is.

• 2:07:04Joe Rogan?

  Because the people that are playing the game, who, where everybody wants to see them, they don't get any of the money. The money is all by these.

• 2:07:11Speaker 00

  The commercials and advertising.

• 2:07:13Joe Rogan?

  Networks, networks and the organization where they profit in a tune of billions of dollars and literally pay zero to the athletes.

• 2:07:22Speaker 00

  It's so gross.

• 2:07:23Joe Rogan?

  Another disgusting subversion of this whole thing. So the purity is in the athletes, especially if you're competing in a game that has no financial future.

• 2:07:34Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:07:34Joe Rogan?

  You know, if you're the world curling champion, whatever, whatever it is, you know, whatever, some goofy-ass fucking Olympics sport.

• 2:07:39Speaker 00

  Right.

• 2:07:40Joe Rogan?

  There's no, there's no, you're just trying to be the best at this thing.

• 2:07:45Speaker 00

  And I think like if you can achieve something that makes you feel really good about yourself, right? I think there is a worth in that to seem beautiful.

• 2:07:53Joe Rogan?

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:07:53Speaker 00

  But, and that's like where sports can come in, right? That like the underdog can win and you can work together and blah, blah, like that's where stuff is. I think that's like really beautiful. You create something that's beautiful. But, yeah, just buying something is not cool. I mean, that's, right? I mean, just, what does that do? That's not cool. Like, creating something is cool, achieving something is cool.

• 2:08:13Joe Rogan?

  It's also one of the weirdest attractions, attractants about social media.

• 2:08:17Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:08:18Joe Rogan?

  Is what the stuff that people are showing you they have.

• 2:08:20Speaker 00

  I know.

• 2:08:21Joe Rogan?

  You know, which is like, you can get a lot of followers by having great stuff. And like, look at my stuff, look at my house, look at my car, look at my jet.

• 2:08:28Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:08:28Joe Rogan?

  And it's like, the people go, wow. And you'll see like millions and millions of likes on these videos.

• 2:08:32Speaker 00

  It's really, because kids, like, they love the YouTube videos now. Like, my son will watch, like, Hot Wheels, like, people being like, this new Hot Wheels, it goes duh, duh, duh, duh, duh. And then he want to make these Hot Wheels things. And I'm like, what is happening right now? That you're like basically doing an ad for Hot Wheels, you know?

• 2:08:46Joe Rogan?

  Right, right.

• 2:08:47Speaker 00

  And it's just. Like, I would have never wanted to watch kids unbox Hot Wheels.

• 2:08:50Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:08:51Speaker 00

  I mean, or Barbies, or whatever, like, none of it, you know?

• 2:08:53Joe Rogan?

  Unboxing things are strange.

• 2:08:55Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:08:55Joe Rogan?

  It's like techno porn.

• 2:08:57Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:08:57Joe Rogan?

  You know, you're, you're watching someone do something you wish you were doing. Oh, I wish I had that Hot Wheel. That's, it's so weird.

• 2:09:03Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:09:04Joe Rogan?

  But it's, you know, it's also very strange when you think about how many people are tuned into that, where you never would have expected that in the past. Like, there would never be a television show on NBC where someone unboxes stuff.

• 2:09:17Speaker 00

  No.

• 2:09:17Joe Rogan?

  You'd be like, no one's gonna watch that. But meanwhile, put it on YouTube, and millions of people will watch that stuff.

• 2:09:23Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:09:23Joe Rogan?

  So there's, there's a part of it that we didn't anticipate.

• 2:09:25Speaker 00

  Yeah. I don't know. I hope it'll be a pendulum, because when you brought up television, I thought, well, that replaced the dance hall, right? People used to go dance and hang out before there was television. Like, you'd be out doing something, and

• 2:09:35Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:09:35Speaker 00

  how cool.

• 2:09:36Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:09:36Speaker 00

  You know, or go out to the diner.

• 2:09:38Joe Rogan?

  They also thought the world was flat.

• 2:09:39Speaker 00

  Right, exactly.

• 2:09:40Joe Rogan?

  It's like, it's just benefits

• 2:09:41Speaker 00

  Right.

• 2:09:41Joe Rogan?

  to all this ability to communicate as well.

• 2:09:43Speaker 00

  Right, yes.

• 2:09:43Joe Rogan?

  The problem is when it's centralized.

• 2:09:45Speaker 00

  Right.

• 2:09:45Joe Rogan?

  The real problem with television is that television has advertising, advertising limits what you can say.

• 2:09:50Speaker 00

  Right.

• 2:09:51Joe Rogan?

  And because of that, you know, we censored language, right?

• 2:09:55Speaker 00

  Right.

• 2:09:55Joe Rogan?

  Because advertisers didn't want you swearing on television, so the way people talked in real life, they never talked on television.

• 2:10:01Speaker 00

  Right, right, yeah.

• 2:10:02Joe Rogan?

  And, you know, and so that got subverted.

• 2:10:04Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:10:05Joe Rogan?

  You know, true free expression

• 2:10:07Speaker 00

  Right.

• 2:10:07Joe Rogan?

  got subverted by advertisement.

• 2:10:08Speaker 00

  Well, and that is what is cool about the world we're living in right now, right?

• 2:10:11Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:10:11Speaker 00

  Because like YouTube and Twitter, X, or, you know, whatever, Blue Sky, all the things, podcasts, I mean, people are free to kind of speak and talk and share.

• 2:10:19Joe Rogan?

  Not necessarily on Blue Sky.

• 2:10:22Joe Rogan?

  I bet I could get banned pretty quick, which is some simple scientific facts.

• 2:10:26Speaker 00

  But, you know, I mean, there is a democracy to information now, where

• 2:10:30Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 2:10:31Speaker 00

  I think, like, stuff that could never have gotten out there 20, 30 years ago, when the gatekeeping of, like you were saying, advertising and all that was so extreme, it's just changed, and that's awesome.

• 2:10:42Joe Rogan?

  Profoundly.

• 2:10:43Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:10:43Joe Rogan?

  And in a way that I don't think we even appreciate, because we're a part of it.

• 2:10:47Speaker 00

  Right.

• 2:10:48Joe Rogan?

  I think it's one of those things. We've become accustomed to checking the news on your phone when you wake up in the morning, and having, and friends sending you things. Oh, my God, did you see this?

• 2:10:56Speaker 00

  Right.

• 2:10:56Joe Rogan?

  And cool things, too. Great music, and

• 2:10:58Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:10:58Joe Rogan?

  so many things get, they get shared, like your show.

• 2:11:03Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:11:03Joe Rogan?

  It got shared to me. I don't even remember who shared it to me, because so many people did.

• 2:11:07Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:11:07Joe Rogan?

  Because I don't remember who the first person was.

• 2:11:09Speaker 00

  Well, and I think that's the thing that is cool, right? We actually have like evidence of what this like democratization of information looks like. Like the UAP phenomenon has become so much more mainstream. People are talking about it, like things that could not have been shared or spoken are now out there. Same with psychedelics and psilocybin and, you know, going on ketamine trips or whatever. Like all that now is just common knowledge that this can be great for healing PTSD or, you know, depression or whatever. The stuff with telepathy, you know? I mean, channeling, whatever it is, like all these things, especially TikTok. You're like, holy cow, this is so.

• 2:11:42Joe Rogan?

  I'm glad you brought the UAP thing up. I hate to interrupt you, but, because I think a lot of the what we're hearing is nonsense.

• 2:11:48Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean.

• 2:11:50Joe Rogan?

  I think a lot of what is being shared, especially publicly, like there's too, too many voices that I think are either intelligence assets or are disinformation experts that are doing it on purpose. And there's too much of, you know, the same feeling that I get, you know, like when I said I met my friend's ex-girlfriend, I was like, oh, get out now. There's this, I have that feeling about the UAP thing. When I hear people talk, nothing seems real to me.

• 2:12:26Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:12:26Joe Rogan?

  When I talk to people about it, there's not one, I mean, even when people tell me their own personal experiences, I believe them. It does not register as real.

• 2:12:34Speaker 00

  That's so interesting.

• 2:12:35Joe Rogan?

  Something registers as being nonsense. There's something, maybe not nonsense, but maybe way weirder than what they're explaining it like, like non-physical interaction that they are reinterpreting as like physical interaction.

• 2:12:54Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:12:54Joe Rogan?

  That there's some, there's some disconnect between their work. Like if someone tells me an experience that they had, like, here's a good example. Um, my friend Steve told me a harrowing experience of them being attacked by a brown bear in Alaska. And when he tells you this story, first of all, I know it's real because I know multiple people who were there. They were all there. It was, no one got hurt. It was very fortunate, but they're, they got charged by a grizzly who ran through their tent. One of my friends was on its back.

• 2:13:28Speaker 00

  Oh, my gosh.

• 2:13:28Joe Rogan?

  For like ten yards.

• 2:13:30Speaker 00

  Oh, wow.

• 2:13:30Joe Rogan?

  Like it literally plowed through the people and he wound up like riding its back for like ten yards before he fell off.

• 2:13:37Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 2:13:37Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it was just like, I mean, it can cover ten yards in a second, right? And the whole thing was this insane chaos and the way he describes how your reptilian brain completely takes over. The fear is so overwhelming and different than anything you've ever experienced before. I know it happened. When he's telling me this, I know it happened.

• 2:13:59Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:14:00Joe Rogan?

  When these people are telling me about talking to aliens and all that, I'm not getting nothing out of them. I'm not getting nothing. I'm getting a flat piece of paper.

• 2:14:08Speaker 00

  Yeah, there's no fear. There's no, there's no charge.

• 2:14:11Joe Rogan?

  What it is. I don't know what it is. I just don't get anything from their story. I hear it. It's interesting, but I don't get anything that lights any bells. There's no bulbs go off with me.

• 2:14:22Speaker 00

  Huh.

• 2:14:23Joe Rogan?

  I just sit there and go, wow, okay, so what were you thinking? You know, and I'm asking them questions, but I'm not getting nothing.

• 2:14:28Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:14:29Joe Rogan?

  And so that leaves me, cause I know that

• 2:14:35Joe Rogan?

  for sure, the government has technology that they do not want the general public to be aware of for reasons of national security or whatever it is.

• 2:14:44Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:14:44Joe Rogan?

  Or, you know, money has been, um, pushed through to finance things and they lied to Congress and they have to keep lying. Whatever the reason is, that's real. There's most certainly black ops programs that the general public is not aware of. That's always gonna be the case. If you have those, what better way to hide them than in plain sight? And with a bunch of people that are air quote whistleblowers that go out and tell everybody about all these experiences. They're not of this earth and that's what I would do.

• 2:15:15Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:15:16Joe Rogan?

  If I was the government and I wanted to be super sneaky. I would have a bunch of my like really clever agents go and whistleblow. Tell some stories. Talk about people that have been abducted. Talk about all these different things.

• 2:15:28Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:15:29Joe Rogan?

  And then on top of that, there's real experiences. So I think, I think there is something because it exists throughout history, just like telepathy exists throughout history and ghosts exist throughout history and, and religion exists. There's something there.

• 2:15:44Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:15:45Joe Rogan?

  There's something there that's distorted by our very slippery grasp on truth.

• 2:15:52Speaker 00

  Yes, yeah. I think that's a very true assessment.

• 2:15:56Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:15:56Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:15:57Joe Rogan?

  But there's also just too many stories from hundreds of years ago. They're incredibly similar to the things that people are talking about today.

• 2:16:05Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's the stuff that's interesting. Like Jacques Vallée and.

• 2:16:08Joe Rogan?

  Exactly. I just finished his third book.

• 2:16:10Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean.

• 2:16:11Joe Rogan?

  That's the mind, but he's great because he's not a believer. He's very skeptical about a lot and highlights a lot of the bullshit to the point where like, okay, what's true?

• 2:16:23Speaker 00

  Yeah. I mean, those are the people you have to trust, though.

• 2:16:25Joe Rogan?

  The only ones. The only ones you can trust. Because there's too many people that are out there telling you, I know what's happening. We're about to experience a contact. The, all the people, the Joint Chiefs of Staff have been notified and like, those people I don't want to talk to. Like, you shut the fuck up. You don't know anything. There's no way you know. You're, you're just taking advantage of this very weird moment in time where people aren't sure. But there's all this discussion, this phenomena, and you've grifted yourself to this.

• 2:16:56Speaker 00

  Right, exactly.

• 2:16:56Joe Rogan?

  There's a lot of those people out there.

• 2:16:57Speaker 00

  Yeah, and it's clickbait and it's this and their profit, yeah.

• 2:17:00Joe Rogan?

  Because they're gross.

• 2:17:02Speaker 00

  No, but the true intellectual people is looking at the consciousness side of this. I think they're fascinating. That's what's like, what's going on here.

• 2:17:08Joe Rogan?

  I think that's where it is.

• 2:17:09Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's a conscious, I mean, that's why, you know, I wasn't into the UAP stuff until people started saying to me, like, you should at least start looking at some of these great thinkers because a lot of this has to do with consciousness. And what, what are we and why are we here? And like, what's a hyper object? Right, like, like a lot of stuff that I'm like, what is going on? So you start reading about it and understanding, okay, like. Where things might converge is an exploration of consciousness.

• 2:17:34Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, and our consciousness is confined by identity. It's confined by so many different things, so many, so many walls that we put up and ego and blinders and self-delusion. There's all these weird things that we have in our mind because we don't necessarily have a very good direction book of how to be a human.

• 2:17:58Speaker 00

  Right.

• 2:17:58Joe Rogan?

  You know?

• 2:17:59Speaker 00

  Or what we're just limited to by our vision, right? Like, if you were to talk to a dog and be like, hey, there's, does this dog know about calculus? And does it know about like?

• 2:18:07Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:18:07Speaker 00

  The, you know, whatever, electoral college? Of course not. Like, there's no way, there's no universe in which a dog would know about that stuff.

• 2:18:13Joe Rogan?

  But it could smell a cat from four blocks away.

• 2:18:16Speaker 00

  Exactly.

• 2:18:16Joe Rogan?

  You ever see a cat, dog just like this?

• 2:18:17Speaker 00

  No.

• 2:18:18Joe Rogan?

  In the air, you know, they have insane noses. They could, they could smell individual ingredients in a hamburger.

• 2:18:25Speaker 00

  Wow, that's so fascinating.

• 2:18:27Joe Rogan?

  And a bear is like 10 times stronger than that, which is bananas.

• 2:18:31Speaker 00

  Amazing.

• 2:18:32Joe Rogan?

  They can smell human beings hundreds of yards away.

• 2:18:35Speaker 00

  Right.

• 2:18:35Joe Rogan?

  Just a whiff of the wind and then all of a sudden, oh, people, let's get the fuck out of here.

• 2:18:39Speaker 00

  Well, and that's like, we don't have that, but like, like a dog doesn't have XYZ. What are we limited, we might not be able to see half of what's there.

• 2:18:46Joe Rogan?

  100%.

• 2:18:47Speaker 00

  Or conceive of it, so.

• 2:18:49Joe Rogan?

  Wave your hand above an earthworm. There's no idea what's going on.

• 2:18:51Speaker 00

  There's no idea what's going on.

• 2:18:52Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, like, it doesn't need to.

• 2:18:53Speaker 00

  Right.

• 2:18:53Joe Rogan?

  Lives its life underground, those senses are not necessary.

• 2:18:56Speaker 00

  Right, so that's the mystery, right?

• 2:18:58Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, and our senses most likely have atrophied. You know, that's the real thing is that, you know, there's a lot of talk from, you know, ancient, whether it's ancient religious texts or of contact, of something communicating with you that's not physically there. And you, you gotta wonder, like, was this really common for people? Like, there's. There's so many descriptions of being contacted by something that's not there. Like, was that before language, normal?

• 2:19:34Speaker 00

  Yeah. And was it physically someone contacted you, or was it in a mental space? Right? Like, were you in this thought world? Like, almost you were astral traveling, or whatever, right? Like, I mean, that's the question, too, is, can you be experiencing something in your mind that's not happening physically?

• 2:19:49Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:19:50Speaker 00

  And I think that question is pervasive in the UAP world, as well as in this, like, telepathy world.

• 2:19:55Joe Rogan?

  Right. It's the birds flying around in unison. Somehow or another, they're tuned in to some, some pattern that, they never collide. How do they not collide?

• 2:20:07Speaker 00

  I know.

• 2:20:08Joe Rogan?

  I mean, that's, like, so spectacular, that you're literally hundreds of feet above the earth. If you collide, you get knocked unconscious, you're both dead. And no one collides, ever.

• 2:20:16Speaker 00

  And they're going fast. I mean, imagine, like-

• 2:20:18Joe Rogan?

  Why would you do that? Like, what, what benefit? Evolutionary benefit? What natural survival benefit would there be in a bunch of you flying around in weird patterns in the sky? Like, look at that.

• 2:20:31Speaker 00

  Oh, look at that. Here we go.

• 2:20:32Joe Rogan?

  That is so beautiful.

• 2:20:34Speaker 03

  The only thing I've heard is they just look like a bigger thing, so it's-

• 2:20:36Speaker 00

  That's gotta be it, right? You look like a big monster.

• 2:20:39Joe Rogan?

  But that doesn't scare off fish. They go right to that big thing.

• 2:20:42Speaker 03

  Well.

• 2:20:42Joe Rogan?

  That's the problem, you know? When Toon does see that big thing, they're like, "Fuck, yeah." Look how crazy that is.

• 2:20:51Speaker 00

  I mean, it's so-

• 2:20:52Joe Rogan?

  But why would that be a benefit to, like, being a bigger thing? That would make you a bigger target. I don't, I mean, it's just weird. It's so weird. Like, no one's falling.

• 2:21:03Speaker 00

  No, no one's hitting each other.

• 2:21:05Joe Rogan?

  How come they're not colliding? How come they're not falling?

• 2:21:06Speaker 00

  And doesn't it look like art? I mean, it really is, like, an elaborate dance.

• 2:21:10Joe Rogan?

  Have you ever seen wolves hunt?

• 2:21:12Speaker 00

  No.

• 2:21:13Joe Rogan?

  They communicate. We don't know, we don't know what they're doing. We don't, we don't know how they do it, but they decide.

• 2:21:18Speaker 00

  Telepathy, man.

• 2:21:19Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, yeah, there's something, because they, they flank animals. They know how to do it.

• 2:21:24Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:21:24Joe Rogan?

  Like, they know to chase animals into, into canyons, and then they get on the other side of it. And they capture them when they're trying to escape.

• 2:21:31Speaker 00

  It's telepathy. I mean, one of the teachers that I, I've come to love so much, and she was also in England, she said that the first time she realized something like this was going on, she was working at a school where there were people, individuals weren't speaking. And she saw people of like, a bunch of her class, playing at recess, and she's like, it was a fully orchestrated game. Like, this one needed to go here, and this one needed to go here, and they were doing this, and then, she's like, but they weren't speaking. And I was watching this through the classroom window, and I thought, they are communicating through telepathy. Because how else do, this is a huge organized game. And she watched it over and over again, and then she thought in her head, like, I want to be in on this. I want you all to teach me. I want to get in on this. And then, one of the boys started, um, she'd start hearing him in her head, like, if he had fallen down outside,

• 2:22:13Speaker 00

  or couldn't find his lunch money, or, you know, something happened, skinned his knee. And she would hear him, and like, would know where to go find him, and she was like, oh my gosh, like, he is, this is starting to work.

• 2:22:23Joe Rogan?

  Whoa.

• 2:22:24Speaker 00

  Yeah, and then like, one of the student's, um, mothers died. And she became, and the mother said to this teacher, I want you to really take care of my son. As he ages, he loves you, like, he, he really respects you, and she's done that his whole life. And now, you know, um, he's a grown adult, and, and they still communicate, but she's like, now he communicates with me telepathically. I'll get these huge visual packages. And she's like, and sometimes I think, first, did this come from me, and my making this up? But it'll be like, an update on someone from, you know, that they knew both 20 years ago, and she'll be, that can't be, that this guy is suddenly a priest, he was so unreligious. Or whatever, it would, there'll be something that makes no sense, and she'll go look it up on Facebook, and it proves to be true.

• 2:23:05Speaker 00

  So, you know, she'll constantly have to double check things, and she, yeah, I mean, so, it's, it's remarkable. But I do not doubt that the wolves are probably using telepathy.

• 2:23:16Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I think chimpanzees do it too. I think they, they all have roles, and they know what role to play, and they just sort of like, lock in on this task together. And somehow or another, communicate, like, they lay in wait, they know when to wait.

• 2:23:29Speaker 00

  So cool.

• 2:23:30Joe Rogan?

  Weird.

• 2:23:31Speaker 00

  It's so cool.

• 2:23:32Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it's so cool. I mean,

• 2:23:35Joe Rogan?

  Imagine if one day we can figure out through technology to access minds of animals and see how an owl thinks. Like see like what is, what is the, what's the process in their mind when they lock on to say, what is a predator thing? What is a, what is a, does a prey animal know when it's being watched?

• 2:23:55Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 2:23:56Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:23:56Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:23:57Joe Rogan?

  Sometimes.

• 2:23:58Speaker 00

  There's been that book.

• 2:23:59Joe Rogan?

  Trust me. I'm a hunter.

• 2:24:01Speaker 00

  They don't always know.

• 2:24:04Joe Rogan?

  They don't know at all. No, sometimes they don't know at all.

• 2:24:07Speaker 00

  That's so, how far away are you when you're?

• 2:24:09Joe Rogan?

  Sometimes like fifty, sixty yards and they have no idea you're there.

• 2:24:12Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 2:24:13Joe Rogan?

  And they're, you know, but a lot of times they're distracted too. Cause they're in the rut, so they're mating and they're distracted. Which is a rude way to hunt them. But that's, that's how, that's how people hunt them.

• 2:24:25Speaker 00

  The worst way to hunt someone.

• 2:24:28Joe Rogan?

  I mean, not always. A lot of animals you hunt that are not in the rut. But, um, you know, like white teale deer, elk primarily, you hunt them when they're in the rut.

• 2:24:37Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:24:38Joe Rogan?

  There's some animals though that are very, very difficult to hunt. And one of the reasons why is you don't hunt them when they're in the rut. Like mule deer. Mule deer are the most clever and the most aware of all deer species because they're constantly being pursued by mountain lions.

• 2:24:53Speaker 00

  Ah.

• 2:24:54Joe Rogan?

  So they're always like, what the fuck is that?

• 2:24:56Speaker 00

  Yeah, they're totally nervous.

• 2:24:57Joe Rogan?

  They're like always on, on edge. And they have an uncanny ability to get out of the way. They just, they, they know something's there and they're like, fuck this, and they just bounce out.

• 2:25:08Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:25:08Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, you gotta sneak up on them when the wind's blowing. You gotta like, like people take their shoes off to creep up on them.

• 2:25:14Speaker 00

  So tactical.

• 2:25:15Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, well, you have to be.

• 2:25:16Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:25:17Joe Rogan?

  Cause you have to, especially bow hunting. So you have to get, ideally, you wanna get within, inside of sixty yards.

• 2:25:22Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:25:22Joe Rogan?

  That's really what you want. Especially a, a mule deer's not that big. An elk is a much larger target.

• 2:25:27Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:25:27Joe Rogan?

  But a mule deer is, you know, a big one's like three hundred pounds. You, you gotta get pretty close. And they fucking know something's up.

• 2:25:34Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:25:35Joe Rogan?

  They know something's up.

• 2:25:36Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:25:36Joe Rogan?

  You know, sometimes you're staring at them and they're just like, what?

• 2:25:41Joe Rogan?

  You know, they're just tuned in.

• 2:25:42Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:25:43Joe Rogan?

  There's also, I don't know if this is real or not, but there's a company called Hex. And they make these, uh, they make clothes that block out your electrical signal. And one of the things, like, it's very hard to discern whether or not it works with

• 2:25:58Speaker 00

  Right.

• 2:25:58Joe Rogan?

  with mammals, but it seems to work really well with fish. So there's a lot of video evidence of these people putting these Hex suits on underneath their, their wet gear, or their, um, uh, scuba gear, and then going in the water and being able to get like right up close to fish, they don't even know what the fuck is going

• 2:26:18Speaker 00

  And they couldn't if they didn't have the suit on?

• 2:26:20Joe Rogan?

  This is their assertion.

• 2:26:22Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 2:26:22Joe Rogan?

  Now, obviously, they're selling a product.

• 2:26:24Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:26:25Joe Rogan?

  Very controversial in the, uh, the hunting world, whether or not these things are real. Some people 100% believe in them, and there's a bunch of evidence that people wear them, and then they sit in a field and turkeys like get right next to them.

• 2:26:38Speaker 00

  What?

• 2:26:38Joe Rogan?

  And turkeys have incredible vision. Turkeys have better vision than humans.

• 2:26:41Speaker 00

  Yeah. Huh. I'd like to know more about that.

• 2:26:43Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, but the, the, the really compelling stuff to me is the water stuff.

• 2:26:48Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:26:48Joe Rogan?

  Cause they do it in the water. And the idea is that prey animals have this electrical, some sort of, uh, signal that they're giving off.

• 2:26:59Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:27:00Joe Rogan?

  That these animals can pick up.

• 2:27:02Speaker 00

  Hmm. That's really interesting. I'd like to learn more about that. That's fascinating.

• 2:27:05Joe Rogan?

  Well, fish have a thing called a lateral line.

• 2:27:07Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:27:07Joe Rogan?

  You ever seen that line on a fish?

• 2:27:08Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:27:09Joe Rogan?

  So that lateral line is interpreting movement in the water.

• 2:27:13Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:27:13Joe Rogan?

  It's interpreting. So, yeah.

• 2:27:15Speaker 03

  Filmographer, he says it lets him get him closer to anything than

• 2:27:18Speaker 00

  Really?

• 2:27:19Speaker 03

  without it. He's just showing different.

• 2:27:21Joe Rogan?

  So this is

• 2:27:22Speaker 03

  What did she got?

• 2:27:22Joe Rogan?

  The problem is, obviously, this is a commercial.

• 2:27:25Speaker 00

  Right.

• 2:27:25Joe Rogan?

  Right? And the problem is, you know, these people believe it, and I don't know if they've done, like, how would you do a double-blind study with this?

• 2:27:34Speaker 00

  Right.

• 2:27:34Joe Rogan?

  You know, would you, you're, you're dealing with

• 2:27:37Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:27:37Joe Rogan?

  completely different fish, completely different time.

• 2:27:40Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:27:41Joe Rogan?

  You know, there's, what did that fish experience?

• 2:27:42Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:27:43Joe Rogan?

  Did that fish just experience a shark 30 minutes ago?

• 2:27:45Speaker 00

  Right.

• 2:27:46Joe Rogan?

  What are you, you know, what's going on?

• 2:27:47Speaker 00

  You have to do a bunch of them, I think.

• 2:27:48Joe Rogan?

  You have to do it a lot.

• 2:27:49Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:27:50Joe Rogan?

  And I don't know if they've done that, because I think they're just trying to sell the, this thing

• 2:27:53Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:27:53Joe Rogan?

  that may or may not work.

• 2:27:54Speaker 00

  And it's because it blocks out your magnetic field? Is that what they're saying?

• 2:27:57Joe Rogan?

  Supposedly. What is, what is their expla- explanation?

• 2:28:00Speaker 00

  I wonder if you can measure that.

• 2:28:03Joe Rogan?

  Has something to do.

• 2:28:03Speaker 00

  Cause there's no way to measure that.

• 2:28:04Joe Rogan?

  Well, the human body is essentially an electrical system, right? So it kind of makes sense that we would give off some sort of a visual representation or some senses that we don't understand. Just as electromagnetic patterns or something about that.

• 2:28:20Speaker 00

  Huh. Alright.

• 2:28:22Joe Rogan?

  What is it? Google "hec suit debunked."

• 2:28:27Joe Rogan?

  Google that. H E C suit, H E C S suit debunked. I wonder if anybody's ever tried to debunk it and say that's nonsense. Cause I know a lot of people that don't think it's, that works. They don't, they don't wear them. But I know my friend John Dudley, who's one of the best hunters in the world, he wears it every time he goes hunting.

• 2:28:42Speaker 00

  Really?

• 2:28:43Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:28:43Speaker 00

  Fascinating.

• 2:28:44Joe Rogan?

  He thinks animals can't see him as well when he wears it.

• 2:28:46Speaker 00

  So interesting. I mean, if he believes it works, then that's like, you know, sometimes the, uh, the act of faith is more important than the fact of it, right?

• 2:28:53Joe Rogan?

  Sometimes. Maybe. I don't know. No, I think the fact is more important. Cause if you're doing both things, if you're doing, if you're, you're doing everything correctly, but one thing does give you, like camouflage works. We know it works. Cause there's something about the way animals see, they, they essentially see movement and line detection. So to see the frame of a human being clearly, if you're wearing black and you're standing there and you're a bipedal thing, they're like, oh, fuck that, that's a person. Let's get out of here. But if your lines are completely broken up by camouflage and you stand still, they don't see you. They see nonsense. They see the woods. They see, you know, you blend in.

• 2:29:34Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:29:35Joe Rogan?

  And that's why camouflage doesn't have to look like leaves and sticks. It can just look like patches of black and stripes and tiger stripes.

• 2:29:42Speaker 00

  Right. That makes sense.

• 2:29:43Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. Yeah, it does. It does make sense. I mean, that's why animals in nature have that.

• 2:29:48Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:29:48Joe Rogan?

  You know, I was watching this thing where they were explaining what animals see versus what we see, why tigers would be so beautifully colored. Cause the animals don't see that color for whatever reason. But they do see the lines and the lines completely blur in with the grass because animals see in black and white.

• 2:30:07Speaker 00

  Right.

• 2:30:08Joe Rogan?

  Or in a weird sort of shade.

• 2:30:09Speaker 00

  Interesting.

• 2:30:11Joe Rogan?

  Have you found anything about hex suits, debones?

• 2:30:13Speaker 03

  Just tons of anecdotal evidence, a few videos, people though, a good point is like, how did Fred Bear do it? How did he get so close to stuff?

• 2:30:21Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 2:30:22Speaker 03

  That's just their example. They'll, you know, the original hunter.

• 2:30:25Joe Rogan?

  Right, those guys all wore like flannel shirts and shit.

• 2:30:28Speaker 03

  They weren't doing odor blocking stuff.

• 2:30:30Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, that odor blocking shit doesn't work.

• 2:30:32Speaker 03

  Yeah, and I have no real, no one did like a study and made a point.

• 2:30:35Joe Rogan?

  Because by the way, if you have odor blocking, the animals smell the odor blocking and they're like, what the fuck?

• 2:30:38Speaker 00

  Right, yes, yeah, that makes sense, yeah.

• 2:30:40Joe Rogan?

  Well, that's stinky fucking weird smell. There's no way, we smell so bad, the animals, there's no way. They smell us like we smell a skunk.

• 2:30:48Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's so interesting.

• 2:30:49Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, you know, you could smell a skunk that gets killed like five blocks away. That's how they smell us. They know we're in the neighborhood.

• 2:30:56Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:30:58Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, so I don't think that scent stuff does anything. I mean, maybe it blocks a little bit, so maybe it helps a little bit, maybe. I mean, you're looking for every little edge, because you're essentially competing with the survival instincts of something that has existed in that form for a thousand years, or, excuse me, a million years or more.

• 2:31:17Speaker 00

  Right, you're walking into an environment you're supposed to lose in if you're hunting an animal.

• 2:31:20Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, the only reason why you win is because you have a bow and arrow.

• 2:31:23Speaker 00

  Right.

• 2:31:23Joe Rogan?

  Or you have a rifle, and you know which way the wind's blowing. That's the big thing.

• 2:31:28Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:31:29Joe Rogan?

  It's like, if you get winded, if they smell you, it's over.

• 2:31:32Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:31:33Joe Rogan?

  Like, the whole thing is, the wind has to be in your face. So if you're looking at the animal, the wind has to be coming in your direction. If the wind hits the back of your neck, it's over.

• 2:31:40Speaker 00

  Really?

• 2:31:41Joe Rogan?

  You feel it. You're like, oh shit.

• 2:31:43Speaker 00

  Because they'll smell you instantly.

• 2:31:44Joe Rogan?

  Oh, they're like, what the fuck this?

• 2:31:46Speaker 00

  Wow, really?

• 2:31:47Joe Rogan?

  Instantaneously.

• 2:31:48Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 2:31:48Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. Hundred yards away, they just start running.

• 2:31:51Speaker 00

  Really?

• 2:31:51Joe Rogan?

  Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:31:53Speaker 00

  What if the wind was going like perpendicular?

• 2:31:55Joe Rogan?

  No, it has to go to them.

• 2:31:56Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 2:31:57Joe Rogan?

  Right, that's why they always find themselves, they always bed down in a position where the wind is coming straight to them, towards any threats.

• 2:32:06Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:32:06Joe Rogan?

  And then the, uh, the females will line up and look in the other way. So they'll look towards, uh, the way, where the wind is going.

• 2:32:15Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:32:15Joe Rogan?

  And then everyone will line out so the wind comes to them, and then some will look in the opposite direction.

• 2:32:22Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 2:32:22Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, and try to keep their eyes open. But again, it's because they're dealing with cats.

• 2:32:27Speaker 00

  Fascinating sport, though. Yeah, it's just because it's so, it's so, I mean, it is so tactical, not just like the physicality of it and the wind and the environment, but just like the, the mental, you know.

• 2:32:37Joe Rogan?

  It's also bizarrely psychedelic in this weird way. When, when you're there, the world doesn't exist. And when you see these animals, you connect with them in some sort of a strange way. And you're, you're trying to like, almost not exist. You're trying to like, give off nothing, which is what cats do when you see them creeping up on things. They're not like, oh, motherfucker.

• 2:33:02Speaker 00

  Yeah, right, they're not rowling, yeah.

• 2:33:03Joe Rogan?

  They're like locked in.

• 2:33:04Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:33:05Joe Rogan?

  It's locked in, almost like nonexistent until they go.

• 2:33:08Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:33:09Joe Rogan?

  And then the whole thing is like, I gotta be able to move quicker than you can run away.

• 2:33:12Speaker 00

  Right, yeah. That's such a, it's a cool sport, yeah.

• 2:33:16Joe Rogan?

  It's a weird, but it's, whatever these animals are experiencing with each other is probably some form of telepathy as well. You know, how do they know, like, how do wolves know to work together? Is it just trial and error? Like, mm, it seems like they have roles, that they have like predetermined roles. Like, one of them will chase them down, the other one will be laying in wait. Like, they, they do stuff together, they coordinate in some strange way.

• 2:33:40Speaker 00

  You had that wolf woman on your show, right?

• 2:33:41Joe Rogan?

  Diane Boyd, yeah, fascinating.

• 2:33:43Speaker 00

  Yeah, she's so interesting.

• 2:33:45Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:33:46Speaker 00

  But she was most afraid of people.

• 2:33:49Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, rightly so.

• 2:33:50Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:33:50Joe Rogan?

  How many people get killed by wolves every year versus people?

• 2:33:53Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:33:54Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, people are way creepier.

• 2:33:55Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:33:56Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, wolves are just real, I mean, clear, not simple, complex, obviously, but clear in what they're trying to do. They're trying to eat and survive. And that's, that's their job.

• 2:34:05Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 2:34:06Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:34:09Speaker 00

  Well, this was a tangent, wasn't it?

• 2:34:10Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, yeah, we've gotten a lot of tangents. But that's the beauty of the human mind.

• 2:34:15Speaker 00

  It is, I love the human mind.

• 2:34:17Joe Rogan?

  It does go on tangents.

• 2:34:18Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 2:34:18Joe Rogan?

  I think that, um, we're, we're all sort of trying to understand why we view the world the way we do. And how much of that has been projected upon us by culture and society? And how much of it is things we understand innately? How much, how many things we can't prove, but that are a part of this world that we live in?

• 2:34:43Speaker 00

  Right.

• 2:34:44Joe Rogan?

  And I think. What your show has done with the telepathy tapes, and I'm sure what the documentary has done, is, I think, more important than anything, open up this possibility to be explored, and recognizing that it's real, and that these preconceived notions that we've held on to for so long are probably erroneous. We probably have screwed ourselves by latching on to the idea that this is it.

• 2:35:12Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:35:12Joe Rogan?

  This is all that we have, and this is the way to live life, and put your suit on and go to work.

• 2:35:17Speaker 00

  Right, yeah, a boring way to live life. Gosh, I can't imagine working in an office. Yeah, I think it's a pendulum shift. The whole world is opening up right now, right? There's just, poof, so much is happening, I think, that people are challenging these preconceived, old, fat... Ooh, I might have some coffee now.

• 2:35:34Joe Rogan?

  Please do. Sorry.

• 2:35:37Speaker 00

  No, I said no earlier, now I'm into it. Cheers.

• 2:35:40Joe Rogan?

  Cheers, thanks for being here.

• 2:35:40Speaker 00

  Yeah, I like your mug. With a third eye.

• 2:35:43Joe Rogan?

  It could happen.

• 2:35:44Speaker 00

  Really? Okay, I'll bring it home, that's cool. So, I can't wait to taste your coffee, see how strong it is.

• 2:35:51Joe Rogan?

  It's pretty good.

• 2:35:53Speaker 00

  That's great.

• 2:35:53Joe Rogan?

  Shout out to Black Rifle Coffee.

• 2:35:55Speaker 00

  It's perfect, yeah, it's good, it's great.

• 2:35:57Joe Rogan?

  So, what is your hope for this stuff? Like, in your most ideal scenario?

• 2:36:05Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:36:06Joe Rogan?

  How, obviously, your show's been received in a tremendously positive way, and people are super intrigued, and really popular. So, that's great. So, more discussion, but what, like, in an ideal scenario, what would you like to happen?

• 2:36:24Speaker 00

  Okay, I think there's three things, right? I think, one, like, baseline, for people to presume competence in non-speaking individuals, or someone who can't control their body. Don't think just because they can't speak doesn't mean they can't think, you know?

• 2:36:35Joe Rogan?

  That they're not there.

• 2:36:35Speaker 00

  Yeah, they're in there.

• 2:36:36Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:36:37Speaker 00

  And then I think the second one is certainly to try to get spelling validated and in schools, right? Like, it's almost like telepathy in a way operated as a Trojan horse to get people to acknowledge and notice these incredible individuals and just take note and help them. So I think getting spelling validated and affirmed and make it accessible in schools, that would be the next thing. And then I think the third thing is, I mean, truly a paradigm shift. I mean, I want people to know, because I've come to what I feel like is believe this, right? That there is a non-physical world that's real. Our idea that consciousness is at the tippy-top, that's the result of this physical world, I think is incorrect. I think consciousness is at the bottom of it and started everything. And with that in mind, consciousness then,

• 2:37:22Speaker 00

  we're so much more possible. It can survive our body. We can communicate without our bodies. We can see into the future, maybe into the past. I mean, whatever it is, anything mental we're capable of. And that helps us explain a lot more. So the paradigm shift, I think, is really cool, if it can happen. And a lot of people have been working toward that, you know? I mean, so I'm just like a tiny bit in a large puzzle of huge giants have come before me. But I think that if this is going to help more people, like, just be aware of the system of what is called, again, like this materialism, which is the idea that it's only what's real can be, you know, observed and measured. If we can get people to realize they're living in that system, that system was constructed, and it's not necessarily the truth. So don't

• 2:38:06Speaker 00

  be embarrassed to talk about stuff, to research stuff, to ask a question. You shouldn't be ridiculed and dismissed just because the system tells you you should be.

• 2:38:12Joe Rogan?

  That concept is just so hard to grasp. If you've not, if you haven't read any of Tom Campbell's stuff, or haven't considered this, or listened to Rupert Sheldrake talk, or your show, it's like, it's so hard for people to grasp that.

• 2:38:25Speaker 00

  Yeah. Tom Campbell blew my mind. I mean, he is like...

• 2:38:28Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. I got a lot of text messages from buddies after that, like, what the fuck, dude? I'm so confused.

• 2:38:34Speaker 00

  Yeah. But this is what I will say, because I actually had a friend that when I was sort of like, ah, going through my own thing, she was just like, if you just start reading about some of the stuff, just reading it, you'll find what you're looking for. Like, there's so much there, whether if you start reading about near-death experiences, or Ian Stevenson, or Tom Campbell, or any of this stuff, it's just like... And the people are researching this, right? Like, it's not like this just happened. This has been going on for a long time, these questions.

• 2:39:04Joe Rogan?

  So, once the documentary is out, what do you hope to do next? Do you have a game plan?

• 2:39:12Speaker 00

  So, we just started working on the doc. I'm hoping that will be done and wrapped up, you know, early next year. Maybe we'll premiere it south by, we'll be back, hopefully. I mean, who knows? And so, so after that, then we're going to do an impact campaign where you take a documentary around and you screen it with a panel. So, that'd be cool. It'll be non-speakers and, you know, we can get people from the Department of Education there or whatever in different cities. And then hopefully that will make an impact, get people into the rooms, talking, whatever. And then after that, we have a really long-term goal where we want to try to work with like a few foundations or maybe start a foundation to open centers that can, if you can imagine, something, maybe like, kind of like the size of an REI in every city where non-speakers can go and get like physical and mental and spiritual supports and spelling help and

• 2:39:57Speaker 00

  education or whatever, you know, there's physical therapy that can help and for respite care for these parents who are working 24/7 to take care of these individuals. And it could just be a beautiful thing, but then there's so many academics to what you kind of noted earlier, like, that might want to work with non-speakers who might want to, can you help me decode whale language or figure out how to stop blanching the coral reefs or whatever? So, if there's, you know, I know non-speakers who want to work in plant medicine, who want to work in this, who want to work in XYZ, but I think the most important thing is these centers maybe could vet those individuals, make sure these academics learn to become a spelling to communicate partner and be background checked to make sure they don't have some nefarious goal.

• 2:40:38Speaker 00

  And then this could maybe create opportunities for spellers to make money, to have a career, to really contribute in these meaningful ways. So, that's our goal, is to create these like centers that can both nourish and support non-speakers and their families, but also allow non-speakers to engage and use their intellect and abilities to have like meaningful careers.

• 2:40:58Joe Rogan?

  That and more, right? More, more people coming out, more people understanding it, more people grasping it, more people accepting. And then this sort of changes the level of cynicism. So it changes the level of negativity and it opens up the acceptance of this stuff. And then maybe we learn more.

• 2:41:21Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. And it's just, I mean, in history too, people would look at deaf people or blind people before and think they're not in there, especially deaf people. It was just like, oh, they must not be in there. And no one thinks that anymore. It's ridiculous to think that.

• 2:41:32Joe Rogan?

  Right, right.

• 2:41:33Speaker 00

  You know, but we're doing the same thing to this population. So, yeah, I mean, there are some of the most brilliant individuals that I've ever met. And actually, I talked to a teacher right before I left here today. And I said, she was talking about her student she just had a conversation with, who, she said, "In middle school or whatever, high school, what did you learn that whole time? What did you learn in school?" Well, he was being taught like he was little. And what he answered was, "Patience." I mean, just so beautiful, so wise, right? He wasn't crapping on that, like, "I learned nothing." They kept telling me animal colors and this and whatever. Like, it wasn't anger, it was, "I learned patience."

• 2:42:08Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 2:42:09Speaker 00

  Because us, you know, our stupid system that has made these individuals out to be like they're not smart.

• 2:42:15Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:42:16Speaker 00

  Has taught them, has failed them when it comes to education. So I just thought that was a beautiful answer and so, so in line with how wise and kind and thoughtful so many non-speakers I've met are.

• 2:42:26Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it's a beautiful answer. That's a good way to wrap this up. Kai, thank you very much for being here and thank you very much for your series. It's really incredible and I, I can't wait to watch the documentary and I'd love to have you back on when, whenever it releases.

• 2:42:40Speaker 00

  Yeah, wonderful. I'll bring some parents with me. I'll bring a non-speaker with you, you can see it.

• 2:42:44Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 2:42:45Speaker 00

  I'm gonna bring Katie and Houston and your mind's gonna go.

• 2:42:47Joe Rogan?

  Okay, okay, let's do it. Let's do it. All right. Telepathy Tapes, it's available basically everywhere, Spotify, Apple, whatever, right?

• 2:42:56Speaker 00

  Wherever you get your podcasts.

• 2:42:57Joe Rogan?

  Wherever you get your podcasts. It's really incredible. I loved it. All right, that's it. Thank you very much.

• 2:43:03Speaker 00

  Thank you, y'all. Thank you.

• 2:43:05Joe Rogan?

  Bye, everybody.