Infiltrating Motorcycle Gangs as an Undercover ATF Agent | Frank D'Alesio (throwback episode)

original airdate - 7/21/23 Frank retired from ATF in 2014 after 25 years of service, most of it as a Supervisory Special Agent focused on complex investigations and undercover operations. He personally infiltrated three outlaw motorcycle gangs and supported undercover operations targeting the Outlaws MC, Hells Angels MC, Pagans MC, Warlocks MC, and others while also serving in leadership roles across ATF, OCDETF, HIDTA, and the Undercover Branch in Washington, D. C. He later advised USSOCOM, DoD, DIA, and Special Operations Forces on signature reduction, cover, and law enforcement support for domestic training operations. Support the show here: https://www.patreon.com/c/TheTeamHouse 00:00 Start 01:37 Frank’s Youngstown roots and path to law enforcement 06:18 Mobbed-up Youngstown and getting hired by ATF 11:49 Learning undercover work in violent 1990s Columbus 18:49 What happens when undercover agents get arrested 24:42 Backstopping, aged cover, and smarter gang vetting 33:31 Frank’s first biker-gang infiltration 46:25 Outlaw motorcycle club culture explained 52:28 Inside the Brothers MC investigation and takedown 1:05:07 Moving to Las Vegas for the Vagos case 1:18:49 The home invasion order and undercover boundaries 1:33:41 ATF’s undercover branch and the Aryan Brotherhood case 1:43:47 Creating the Order of Blood cover club 2:13:18 Aryan Brotherhood, prison gangs, and outlaw biker politics 2:35:59 Listener questions, ATF politics, Waco, Sons of Anarchy, and final reflections Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-team-house--5960890/support https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-team-house--5960890/support?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=rss.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

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• 0:59Jack Murphy?

  Hey, everyone. Welcome to episode 222 of The Team House. I'm Jack Murphy here with Dave Park. D back there producing in the shadows. And our guest on today's show is Frank DeLassio. He spent 26 years in the alcohol, tobacco, and firearms, mostly doing a lot of undercover work, doing infiltrations of motorcycle gangs. We're really excited to have Frank here today. So Frank, again, thank you for joining us tonight on a Friday evening. Really appreciate it, man. I want to start off by just asking you the question we pretty much start all of our interviews with. It's about your origin story. I'd like to ask you a little bit about, you know, your upbringing, how you grew up, and sort of how that took you towards the path to law enforcement.

• 1:41Speaker 04

  Well, I was born and raised in Youngstown, Ohio. Born in 1965, and that was at the height of when Youngstown was really rolling with the steel mills and everything. My dad was a police officer. My mother was a police officer. We had firemen. So, you know, very ethnic town, melting pot. You name the ethnicity, and it was there. My family, Italian Catholic, a lot of guilt, loud at holidays. So, you know, you know, so I went to Catholic schools most of my life. So that was challenging, too, because that was quite an experience. Had a great time, but just a different experience than the public school kids had. Played football. That was my primary sport.

• 2:27Speaker 04

  I went to Ursula High School, graduated from there and I went down to West Virginia. I won't say I played on the team. I was on the team, but I made it one year and it wasn't going for me. So I went back and I told my dad, I'm done. Of course disappointment, but I moved to Florida. My brother was living down there. So my buddy and I moved down to Florida and after a couple of years of making $3.25, it wasn't working out. So I said, I gotta go back to school. Now, when I was at West Virginia, I was a forestry major, believe it or not. So I had no, no desire to go into law enforcement whatsoever. But when I went back, I started having conversations with my dad about law enforcement. So I ended up getting a criminal justice degree. I got out in three and a half years because I just wanted to get out of school.

• 3:13Speaker 04

  So when it start come time to start applying for jobs, I applied to everybody but ATF. I had no idea what ATF even was. Okay. So my dad, if you don't know anything about Youngstown, it's the old Italian, I know a guy and I got a guy because that's how it is, right? So being Italian in Youngstown, you had as many friends that might have relatives that were involved in some things, right? I remember my grandmother had passed away and we were at the funeral. And I'd only been hired like a week. And my dad says, hey, somebody wants to talk to you.

• 3:55Speaker 04

  And I'm like, who? And it was Joey Naples. Now Joey Naples was the head of the crime family in Youngstown. And I went over there. He goes, hey, I heard you got hired by ATF. And I'm going, okay, how the hell do you know that, right? But it was very small community. So like in Youngstown, you know, you have people that went into firefighter, you know, they were policemen, public service, you know, working in the mills, the auto industry, US steel, republic steel, sheet and tube, they were huge then, right? So that was your path, but. Everybody, everybody had a bookie, right? And so you were raised street smart. You learned, I mean, you hung out of places and everybody got along. Nobody said anything. I could tell you story after story about that. I'll tell you one funny one after I got hired on the job.

• 4:40Speaker 04

  But, um, so my dad goes, hey, go down and see Freddie Kylitz and Wayne Lovin. Wayne was the, the rack, the resident agent in charge of Youngstown. And Freddie was a friend of theirs and these guys all hung out at the same bars. So, and they were all revenue guys, right? This was back in the late eighties. So I go down there and, uh,

• 5:01Speaker 04

  they tell me about ATF and I'm like, wow. Cause ATF, which I, again, I didn't know anything was not very diverse. You know, we got alcohol, tobacco, firearms and explosives. Now, when it comes to the tobacco and alcohol, unless you're doing like moonshine, like thousand gallons and cigarettes, transporting a thousand, you know, tractor trailer, ATF really won't get involved in that. But it was at the height of, you know, they talked about all the undercover they did when they were doing a revenue. That intrigued me, right? And this was at the height of when crack was just coming on the scene in the United States bad. And about the guns and the violence and that kind of intrigued me. So I took the T E A exam and like most of my compadres who took it, passing was 70.

• 5:45Speaker 04

  I failed it the first time by half a point and I passed it by two points the next time. And come to find out when I was at the academy, everybody's asking about what they scored, what they scored. I think we only had one guy out of 24 that scored above an 80. So I didn't feel too bad then. I had to feel like a big dumbass.

• 6:02Speaker 04

  And then, and then it started, I got assigned to Columbus and that was my first post and off it went.

• 6:08Jack Murphy?

  So what, what was the funny story that you wanted to tell about, uh, getting the job?

• 6:13Speaker 04

  Uh, so I'd been on a job about six months. And, uh, so I go back to this bar called Syrax. It was on east side of Youngstown. And the one thing about the guys back then, Mike Serkis, those guys never messed with drugs. It was all numbers, right? And it was all, everybody hung out there, cops hung out there, crucks hung out there. But it was like a Switzerland neutral ground, right? But he ran numbers out of there. Well, He's dead now, so I could talk about that. And so one time I go in there, my dad was down there on a Saturday afternoon and I go in there to, you know, just to have a drink with my dad. So we had pagers back then, right? So I get a page and you could never just go into the back kitchen.

• 6:57Speaker 04

  You had to ask Mike, can I go back in there and use the phone? And he said, sure, go ahead. Well, first he walked back there to make sure nobody was back there. So I walked back in here and I dial up the phone and I'm on the phone talking to my boss. When come, and I can never remember the name of this guy. In comes this guy, he's about 80 years old, old Italian guy shuffling in with two grocery bags. And now they had a big butcher block table in the center, right? So I'm watching him and I'm watching him and as I'm watching him, he starts dumping out all his cash. And, and as that's happening on the phone and Mike walks in, I tell my boss, hey, I gotta go. I hang up and Mike goes, now, if you got to do something, you can do it. He goes, but before you do that, I gotta talk to this dumbass over here.

• 7:42Speaker 04

  He goes, hey, do you know who that is? He goes, yeah, he goes, that's little Frankie Deliscio. He goes, oh. Hey, he goes, you know what he's doing right now? He goes, isn't he in college? Mike goes, no, he fucking graduated. He goes, well, what is he doing? He goes, he works for fucking ATF, you idiot. The guy I thought was gonna have a fucking stroke. I walk out of there and my dad goes, where are you going? I go, I gotta go, I'll talk to you later. And then that, I mean, that stuff happened all the time. I mean, just because of Youngstown. I mean, I, when I was growing up, when the car bombing wars were going on in Youngstown. So I hung around with this kid Bobby Pogan, right? Now, his dad was a connected guy. And so we would go watch Boom Boom Mancini fight great, uh, your gold gloves down in Struthers at the field house, right?

• 8:27Speaker 04

  Now, I never knew anything about this, but it seemed kind of cool that they had like automatic car starters. You know, and anytime we would go, they would say, hey, we gotta stop here to warm the car up. Well, that's when everybody was getting bombed, right? So his dad ended up going to, going to jail. He, he got in a shootout with the FBI. He, he went, he went away for, for some time, but you know, you just grew up and it was just a matter of people having guns. And see, you know, it was just culturally, you know, you knew you were safe, but that's how we grew up in Youngstown. People, if you're from there, you understand.

• 9:00Jack Murphy?

  Right, right. And, and so, but in, when you graduated from ATF training, they put you kind of back into your home turf.

• 9:09Speaker 04

  Well, you know, yeah, before that they were, well, we had guys that were in New York. They shipped them to LA. We had guys who were in LA, they shipped them to New York for whatever, you know, because that old adage, well, you can't work in your own hometown because you know, that whole FBI thing, corruption, right? Well, you know, so I ended up down in Columbus, Ohio, which was another shit show because ATF used to have these things called punishment posts. So if you were an agent that wasn't performing or got in trouble, they would ship you to these different posts around the country. Well, Columbus was one of them. Before I got there, they had hired five new people in Columbus and they still had these three hanger honors. And they eventually got rid of them. Tony DiNardi was our rack and he was brought in there for nothing else but to get rid of these guys. I showed up the first day on the job and the guy

• 9:54Speaker 04

  who was my training officer, John Licky, German guy from, from Chicago, that we were in a Bay Area, so our desks were butted up to one another. I'm all full of piss and vinegar. I sit out at the desk and the other guys are watching because I don't know John, but they know him. And he leans over his desk into my face and he goes, ATF is a vindictive outfit. They're going to be out to get you. That was like, that was like five minutes on the job. Little did I know, there's a lot of truth to that. But anyway, that was my opening day TF and it was like, holy crap. Well, so you know, we had all new guys and the relationship with ATF with the Columbus Police Department

• 10:34Speaker 04

  wasn't really that good because, you know, they, they, they really didn't, uh, interact with them, especially in our conics. Well, like I said, we had a lot of young guys, you know, we went to the academy. The old academies used to be because ATF was very thick in bringing a lot of state and local guys on because ATF is still one of the only federal agencies that doesn't require a, a college degree to come on. They'll exchange, you know, work, investigative work for your degree. So we had a lot of state and local guys that were coming on. You know, I didn't have any police experience. I was 24, but it was a good mix. And back then there was, if you were like 28 or 29, you were old. So they were bringing all these guys on. And so we'd go through all our

• 11:18Speaker 04

  training where that's where I met my, my, one of my dearest friends, Darren Kozlowski, who we kind of passed, went down the same way.

• 11:28Speaker 04

  And so we're going, you know, we're going through this training and, um, you know, and you're learning everything. Well, then it comes to field ops, right? So field ops is the portion where, okay, you're gonna take all this stuff you learned and you're gonna take it out into the practical exercises. Well, when I was there, the question, okay, how many of you guys want to work undercover, guys and girls? Like if there were 24 people, 22 raised their hand and said, hey, I want to do it. Well, when I got was getting out of the academy, or when I was getting out of ATF in 2014, when I go down to instruct, you were lucky to get two or three people to raise their hand. Because they're hiring different types of people, not worse people, but more professional people, you know? Um, so different mindset, right?

• 12:15Speaker 04

  So, you know, I went through the academy, ended up in Columbus. So as soon as I got there, there was, there was four other guys and then we had a, uh, our, our, basically our training officer was one guy, Don Mapley, who ended up becoming our boss. He took us all under his wing and man, we just get informants and we would just start making buys. We used informants initially, then we would start rolling in to make crack buys. And then we were just smashing doors, smashing doors, smashing doors, right? So eventually we started stepping on the Columbus Police Department's toes because we weren't deconflicting. So they were smashing our doors and we were smashing their doors. But the one thing to come out of that is they knew we wanted to work. So the relationship really grew. I mean, you know, it was a violent time in Columbus. There was a lot of, uh,

• 13:00Speaker 04

  you know, street gangs, not like Crips and Bloods per se, but more like, you know, ad hoc street gangs that were controlling different areas. And then we had the Jamaicans and then you had the Jafakans. You had the, you know, uh, the guys that were pretending to be Jamaicans that weren't. And everybody believed that because they had an accent, right? But those guys were shooting it up. It was, it was pretty good, you know, and, um, So it was, it was a pretty wild time, but I'll tell you what is great training because you learn how to do everything. I mean, you were in the middle of everything. That's we started getting our taste of undercover. And, and we were running ops all the time. I mean, there are days we were doing three, four search warrants a day. Just banging them down. We go make the buys and then we go out and do that kind of stuff. So

• 13:40Speaker 04

  it was, it was, it was a great place to learn and Don was a good guy because you know, he, he, he took the time to train us, train us properly. And he, and he, and he shielded us from a lot. You know, and I was, you had, you had guys back then who were stand up dudes that would fight with, uh, with management. Now our sack, Bill Wood was an old revenue or guy, good guy. If he worked, if you worked, he loved you. He didn't hire anybody. Didn't, didn't play athletics at any level. And we come to find that out after we all got hired. We were talking, he goes, oh, if you didn't play any kind of athletics, he wouldn't hire you because he believed that you need no teamwork, sacrifice. You know, cause it was like, you know, Frank, when you come on, you're going to miss anniversaries. You might miss holidays, you might do.

• 14:24Speaker 04

  And I took that to heart, you know, and everybody that I know that came on it, that's had a successful career at ATF. You did miss a lot of that. Lot of personal time you lost with your family, but you know, that, you know, that's the conversation you have with your wife when you get married and they, they accept it or they don't.

• 14:40Jack Murphy?

  Could, could you tell us a bit about, I mean, was that the, the extent of your undercover training at that time was sort of OJT?

• 14:48Speaker 04

  Well, okay. So ATF, uh, unlike other agencies, cause I worked a lot with FBI, HSI, DEA. They all have to go to an undercover school before they can work undercover. ATF, you go through the, you know, the two week block at the academy. When you get out, you just have to raise your hand and say, I want to work undercover. If the rack or group supervisor feels you have the ability to do it.

• 15:13Speaker 04

  Down the road you go. Now, they're gonna try to stick you with somebody who has been doing it or has experience and it's all OJT work. Now, we did have advanced undercover schools, but it wasn't a requirement for you to go. So, I never went to one. I've instructed Adam, but because I was always involved in something. I got invited to go down and teach, but it was just, I would say for the guys in ATF, 99% of what they, they, they learned, they learned OJT and on the streets and sometimes the hard way.

• 15:42Speaker 05

  Frank, you mentioned your relationship with the local PD, but you know ATF, alcohol, tobacco, firearms, what you're doing, you're doing these drug warrants. How did, how did you guys fit in with the DEA throughout your career? Did you, was there a lot of cooperation? Did you step on each other's toes a lot?

• 15:59Speaker 04

  You know, to be brutally honest, because I'm gonna, you know, I, we had, you know, it's personality driven. Let's put it that way. You know, sometimes if the boss is good, your, your agencies will click together because the guys will work good. If the bosses aren't good, or you got some agents that don't want to cooperate, ATF had to chair assholes like everybody else, you know what I mean? But you try to work with people, you find those few guys that you, to get the job done because that's what it's about. So, you know, I had friends with FBI, I had friends with DEA, but most of the time, you know, they had their task forces and they were recruiting off of the, you know, off of the local police departments. Well, us, we went,

• 16:42Speaker 04

  made our own ad hoc task forces with the, the narc guys that we liked to. I mean, one of my dearest, best friends in the world, he was 50 years old, as old as my dad when I came on. I did my first long term with him. He, he, he was getting out, Tom Strasba. I mean, the stories, but you know, so, but we were running and gunning and we, you know, it wasn't, they didn't give us the respect until we earned it. And we did earn their respect. And that's what we wanted to do to where we can get on equal par. And we did with DEA and we did with FBI and some people you can work with and some people you can't. So, you know, there wasn't such thing as deconflicting back then, like the height is our now. And where you deconflict some of your work so that there's not

• 17:26Speaker 04

  any blue on blue, you know, but, but that was always contentious because it was a need to know versus a right to know. And sometimes we did, we never deconflicted just because of the sensitivity of the case.

• 17:37Speaker 05

  Then law enforcement, what do they call that? Daxing? You got a DAX or DEX? I've heard that I've heard guys use the term to deconflict.

• 17:49Speaker 04

  Well, there's tax, the treasure. Well, basically, Hider runs the conflict.

• 17:54Speaker 05

  Okay, okay.

• 17:55Speaker 04

  So what you do is, so what you do is they have a, they have a deconfliction center and other agencies represented. So if you have a target or an address or you're going out to do a warrant or you have an investigation, you're supposed to send that in to them so that they can make sure that nobody else is either going to hit the same house or location and that there's no blue on blue situation. And, you know, and if you're working the same target, this is where it gets tricky. If you identify the same target, then it becomes who has control of the target. And then that usually comes down to the US Attorney's Office and who's in best graces with them. Because sometimes agencies will get walled out of their own cases because somebody has a better, a better asset. Now, you'd like to think people can work together and do it, and it does happen.

• 18:39Speaker 05

  So if you guys, and I don't know if this has ever happened to you, but when you guys have guys on like a deep cover and they're in with some serious hardcore players, right, some shitheads. And if, and if you get rolled up by local PD or whatever, because you're in this group of people and they're doing something nefarious, how do you, how do you handle that when you go to booking and stuff like that?

• 19:02Speaker 04

  You go to jail. I mean, a lot of times, so the game has changed significantly on the long-term infiltrations. Like, guys like, like the OG of outlaw motorcycle gang infiltrations would have been Steve Martin with Langley and, and, and, and Timmy Buns, and there was one other guy and his name's escaping me. They did the first, which you would say, modern infiltration of the warlocks in Florida. And it was like a need to know, there was no, ATF didn't even have op plans back then. So it was like, hey, we're going out to do something and we're going to do it and we'll let you know how it goes. And if something bad happens, we'll call you or we won't. Because there wasn't all this oversight, which towards the end, it was a ton of oversight.

• 19:47Speaker 04

  So, and that's where the case is, you know, if you got rolled up, we get stopped all the time, right? So we have our identification, but you gotta understand.

• 19:57Speaker 04

  For ATF, for the backstop them back in eight, late eighties, early nineties, it was a collateral duty for one dude in headquarters.

• 20:05Speaker 05

  Right.

• 20:06Speaker 04

  And all he could do is maybe give you a social security number and a, and a credit card and they fucked that up.

• 20:12Speaker 05

  Right. None of it was aged. It was like, yeah.

• 20:15Speaker 04

  No, no, you could.

• 20:17Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 20:18Speaker 04

  You could. Yeah. And, uh, but, but the problem was, you know, because now, mind you, there weren't even computers at this point in time. You know, and the cell phones were the brick phones and you had the old Motorola gray flip phone, right? So there wasn't a whole lot of technology, but the cops, right? They'd stop you. They'd run your license plate or they'd run your tag. All that stuff was covered, right? So you were good. Um, you know, now if you got caught with a gun, now hopefully if you did have cover team out there, you were working with me. They would flag those guys off so they didn't bother you, but we had, we had our share of guys that got arrested and went to jail. And then you gotta deal with it after because then, you know, the organization clubs are looking at you, the gangs looking at you going, okay, what's happening now? Because.

• 21:02Speaker 05

  They have to maintain their cover. Yeah.

• 21:04Speaker 04

  Right. So you might have to spend a night or two in jail. We've had guys have to spend a night or two in jail. Because, you know, they want to do all the bonding out and everything. You have to get your own attorneys and you have to work with the judges on that to try to get that right. So you're not spending time in jail, right?

• 21:19Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 21:21Speaker 04

  So, but yeah, there was a lot of times that things would happen that, um, our guys would get stopped and pulled over, especially on runs. You get checked out, but our backstopping got better. I mean, it did over time, like my stuff during that time, like in my first case in Columbus, that went three and a half years and it was all self-acquire other than those two things, right? So I had to call people that I know, trying to explain to them what I'm trying to do. And they're like looking at you with three eyes. And, you know, but it was all your own backstopping to cover your ass because, you know, but they hired private investigators to check you out. So it was, it was a lot different than it is now.

• 21:58Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 21:58Speaker 04

  You know, the guys are smart, you know, federal pen, state pen, they're the best college education in the world because they know how we do things. So they start thinking outside the box now, you know, how to try to catch us.

• 22:11Jack Murphy?

  Well, I don't know if you want to pick up that straight of thought, or we

• 22:14Speaker 05

  Actually, except love to talk about, uh, before we even get into your personal story, I'd love to talk about the challenges of undercover work. And for people who might not be familiar with like a cover, we talk about backstop. That means, uh, that you have a history of, you have an address and somebody goes to that address, like that, that there are backstops to your cover. When we talk about aged cover site, nobody has a credit, you know, if you get a brand new alias that hasn't been aged, you have a credit rating of zero because you have a card that's never been used. You know, you don't have any kind of, you know, uh, places where bills have ever been sent. And maybe back then it was harder to check that kind of stuff. Now though,

• 22:56Speaker 05

  I'm sure the gangs are much savvier when it comes to checking somebody out. How did, how was that undercover process for you when you infiltrated? When you started and then how did it change through the years?

• 23:10Speaker 04

  Well, what I'm not going to get into the TTPs, you know, and all that. But what I can tell you is, so, when I got went into my first club, there was no check, right? It was based on my informant vouching for me, you know, them doing their own checks, seeing where I live, you know, just talking to me how I worked, what I did, right? They did their own personal thing. But then when I went out to Las Vegas and was working at Vagos, before you can get in, you had to fill out, it was a one sheet application, right? They asked you for a copy of your driver's license, copy of your social security card, uh, where you live and all that. And then you had to pay. And then they had a private investigator that was going to obtain

• 23:54Speaker 04

  some of your backstop, like your, your birth certificate. You had to tell them where you were born and all that. And remember when I talked about self acquire? Well, the guy who gave me my, because we had, we had a way to do, um, you know, to, for credit and stuff like that. So, you know, the thing is, it's no secret, the bad guys know today, because we've passed so many tests with them, that we could take something digitally and make it appear as good as anybody else on paper, right? It's the other things that are the challenges today. But however, so we had, we had that, all those mechanisms, well, not at that time in place. So.

• 24:34Speaker 04

  One issue I had was so I filled out my application and something just didn't feel right to me. So I called a buddy of mine who had a used car lot. I said, hey, run my social security number and tell you, tell me what you come back with. So he calls me 10 minutes later and he's laughing, which is not good. And he says, hey, he goes, you got three people with that same social security number. I go, how the fuck can I have three people? I go, it's supposed to be issued to me only. So I make my call to headquarters, our special operations division, and I talked to the young man who was in charge of the program. And I said, hey, man, I got a problem with my social. He goes, you can't. He goes,

• 25:15Speaker 04

  we, we, he goes, what number did I give you? And I gave him the number. And there's silence on the phone. Then I hear him go, oh, shit. I go, well, that's not good, dude. I go, I already gave these guys my info. He goes, well, that was the number we used to test the system. I had a black male, Hispanic male in me. It all with different credit histories floating around now. So that was one strike because then they start questioning me about that. Then the next strike was I had to acquire my own birth certificate. I had that all lined up, right? The day that this, that the private investigator makes contact with the county,

• 25:57Speaker 04

  guess what? The guy I had on board out sick. He gets, he gets, he gets called back to the, to the private investigator. He goes, well, you know, it's a very good forgery, but it doesn't come back to that guy. So I'm under the hammer getting hammered on all this because, you know, but the thing is greed is a beautiful thing because they really wanted us in the club. So they were overlooking a lot of stuff because I had some shelf aliases because we always had multiple and they got into this, why we're using this alias or why we're using that name and not this one. I said, because I don't know you motherfuckers, you know, and I'm not giving you my real shit. This is what I'm into. Well, anyway, they believe that. We went down a road and, you know, and then that case ended because

• 26:40Speaker 04

  the other agent who was working Darren Kozlowski, cause who was working the, the case out in

• 26:47Speaker 04

  In Hollywood got blown out of the water. They they found out who he was. They still thought we were good and I got a phone call talking about how they wanted to kill him. I wanted to kill him too. But anyway, so that case sitting in real well. However, what it did prompt was the initiation of our undercover branch back in 1998 where they're like, we gotta fix this, right? I had no desire to go into that undercover branch. I was pissed. I just wanted to go to another post, but I got yanked in in three other guys were there. We actually started our branch and we got a good sponsor and then we start doing our own backstopping the proper way. And you know, and it morphed, but you know, every time we do an infiltration, like I said, over the course of 40 years,

• 27:31Speaker 04

  I think we've probably done 20. Not all of them were long, but there were some that went long and were damaging, right? So they all talk, you know, they have meetings, even the adversarial clubs will talk about how they were infiltrated. And I'll tell you, it came down to the applications changed. When the guys were going into the Black Rain case out in California, the Mongols case, three of them had to get polygraphed. Okay, they had to pass that. That was another shit show because I was running the branch at that time. And you know what ATF's concern was? This is how fucked up this was. We're we're talking about three guys who were getting in. They got a path to polygraph. If they're in, they're in, right?

• 28:12Speaker 04

  Their concern was if these guys learn how to beat the polygraph, well, if they ever come under Internal Affairs investigation and they have to take polygraph, how we know they won't be? That's that's that's the petty bullshit, right?

• 28:26Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 28:26Speaker 04

  So so they ended up all taking the polygraph and passing. And then they all got it. And then that case that sister, they did a whole, man, they took down that whole play was, that's probably the single best investigation in ATF from start to finish. The outlaw case in Virginia was very similar and the the pagan case up in Long Island where they actually went and he took out the the leadership, like the no shit national presidents, international presidents. And you know, but go ahead. I'm sorry.

• 28:54Jack Murphy?

  Well, I mean, finish your thought, but I'd like to backtrack a little bit to your personal experience, your introduction into into that world, but but please continue.

• 29:02Speaker 04

  Well, I mean, it it's just changed so much that these guys now, you know, they look at you and it's like, okay. They understand over the course of 40 years that we could look at you all day long on paper. We know you're gonna have a house. We know you're gonna have cars, we're gonna have motorcycles. We had guys that came to work with us just to verify we were working and take a look at how we worked. You know, security guys, you know, just to see what was going on. They come and look at your house, looking for cameras. They do all that mess, right? Well, you know, then they start thinking outside the box on what can they get you to do? That cops would do, you know, feds wouldn't do, you know, they don't worry about informants.

• 29:42Speaker 04

  Because although they can be damaging, they're looking for the, you know, they're looking for the infiltrators, right? Cops, law enforcement. So, you know, so the game did change quite a bit towards the end, guys. We're going through some pretty high hurdles to get in these clubs. And everybody thinks that we got in these clubs because we wanted the patch. It was never about the patch. You know, you could only go so far in an investigation, right? As a, as a hang around or an outsider. And sometimes that's good enough. You could do enough damage, still it that way, and it's better. Because getting a patch and deciding that I'm gonna go in and probate a prospect, which could be from three months to a year, right? You're at their beck and call, and it's hard to do business because everybody's watching you.

• 30:27Speaker 04

  So there has to be a real reason to get the patch. And that's so you can get on the inter- inter sanctum and go further, right? But that was never the goal. Everybody always say, oh, you guys just wanna get the pat. No, we don't, no. That's the byproduct of the investigation, because then you really are owned by the club. You know, they, they, they, they watch you, they look at you, they see what you're doing, a lot of scrutiny. You know, a lot of those guys were right for the wrong reasons, choosing, you know, all the guys over the years of being cops. They just couldn't nail it down, except for the one time. But other than that, you know.

• 31:02Jack Murphy?

  So walk us back a little bit to, you know, you're a semi-seasoned ATF agent, I take it at this point. When you start doing the long-term undercover work. No, but, well, tell, tell, tell us about, tell us about your entryway into that, into that line of work and how that came about.

• 31:19Speaker 04

  So, so when I was young, you know, I, I liked ride motorcycles and mini bikes and all that stuff, right? So my, one of the agents in the office, Rodney Russell, he had an informant who he did a big drug Rico case on, on a bunch of black gang members, but this dude was white, but he also had ties to a lot of the biker clubs, right? So I'm talking to Rod, Rod goes, hey, he's got some hooks into some of these clubs. He goes, would you be interested? And I'm like, well, shit, I like to ride motorcycles, but you know, I'd never been around like club life. I don't, I didn't know really what that was about. So that's when I start calling Steve Martin and saying, Steve, now he's in the middle of his investigation with the warlocks and I'm trying

• 31:59Speaker 04

  to get educated on how should I act? What should I, what should I ask? You know, what, you know, how do I not piss these people off? So he's educating me, right? So I've been going through a couple of bars in the area, just kind of getting, and, and I need to have motorcycle. So my good friend, Tom Strasbaugh, who was on the vice squad at the time, he had a motorcycle. So I had to go borrow his motorcycle to go start riding with these guys. And he was very gracious with that. So, so, uh, so I'm riding a motorcycle. So I get invited to a part, well, the CI gets invited to a party at this club called the Road Saints on the south side of Columbus. And he goes, come on, he goes, this would be a great place for you to meet. He goes, the Avengers will be there. He goes, there might be some outlaws. He goes, there'll be some road saints. He goes,

• 32:44Speaker 04

  this is a good place to get based on. I go, I'm in. Now I'm old, was I? I was 20. I've been on a job like three years, three and a half years. So this is like trial by fire. So the CI shows up himself because he don't have a bike. He's there in a car. So I roll up on my motorcycle. There's a lot of people there and, you know, I'm, hey, how you doing? How you doing? An hour into the party, Columbus Police Department and Liquor Control come and raid the house. And I'm shitting my pants. So I take my gun because I don't want to, I don't want to go to jail, right? So I throw my gun under the house. I'm getting rid of anything that could be construed as a weapon

• 33:27Speaker 04

  because we normally carried more than, you know, one gun. And so the police are patting down their ID and everybody, you know, and luckily, because I had been running out on the streets of, you know, of Columbus still stuff that there weren't, there wasn't anybody there that recognized me. Okay. So.

• 33:45Speaker 04

  Party breaks up. I go back to the bar the next day to see what's going on. I sit out at the bar. I'm having a sandwich and a beer. Two Avengers walk in, two road saints walk in, they pull me out. Now, I'm not a small guy by any stretch of the imagination. In fact, I was, I was bigger back then, you know, and they pulled me out and they put me up on a wall at gunpoint and go, who the fuck are you? And I'm like, what do you mean, who am I? I go, I'm Tony, Tony Franco. That was my name. And they go, no, who are you? I go, I don't know. So this went back and forth for a half hour on, hey, I was the new face that showed up. The house got raided. Who are you? Are you with Ohio BCI? Where the, I don't know where

• 34:27Speaker 04

  they came out of that. And it was like, so for like, I was getting hammered for like, you know, half hour guns. Well, eventually, I think because I was young and I was able to talk, you know, just talk. I had a good gift of gab. They're like, all right, but it was like, you know, we're gonna be watching you kind of deal. So that was kind of discouraging. So, so, uh, yeah, a little scary. So, you know, so things kept on and I kept going around. And then stroke of luck for me. Now, at this time, I started pulling my buddy Tom Strasbauer start coming around and he was an arc. Now, we had to be real careful because that guy had been at homicide and art vice. So we had to kind of

• 35:10Speaker 04

  limit his exposure, but one of the best mentors I could have ever had in my life. So he taught me a ton. And, um, so we're sitting there and I start pulling him in. Well, about a year into this, right? We've been buying LSD. We've been buying all kinds of stuff off of the peripheral, the edges and a few club members from the Avengers. Well,

• 35:34Speaker 04

  my, I, I call him my friend now, my informant. I've known the guy for, for 30 plus years, right? Didn't have any criminal history. He had done a case down in New Orleans. Okay. So Easy Rider, if you're familiar with like Easy Rider magazine, well, they used to do like rallies around the country and Columbus was a big one. And they actually opened up a motorcycle shop in Columbus. And my informant and his best friend, they ended up going to work there. Well, I got a call from an agent down in New Orleans and said, hey, I need you to do me a favor. We gotta pay Tony some reward money for the case he did. He goes, do you mind going and seeing him? I don't know, send it up. I go, you know, we'll blend. So we stop at the Easy Rider shop,

• 36:17Speaker 04

  Tom and I, and it had just opened. And we walk in. Now, his, his, his best friend, who's now a C stump, who, who we didn't know, we go, hey, we're looking for Tony. And he's looking at us. Now, you know, I had, at that time, had real long hair, you know, and Tom looked like a bucket of shit, too. We rolled in on motorcycles. And he's like, he goes, well, hold on. And I see him take off up these stairs. So Tom and I follow him. And we get up there and there's Tony standing there and stump. And they're like grabbing shit to start beating the hell out of us. I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa. We're like, what are you doing? They go, who are you guys? I said, David sent me, which was his control agent down. And it was like, everything, you know, kind of, kind of softened

• 36:59Speaker 04

  out. And then within talking to Tony, you know, he knew that whole crowd because he used to be in a club called the Outrider, uh, the Outriders. It was there a long time ago, that had become the brothers. And we just start talking. He goes, man, I goes, I can get right back in with those guys if you want. He goes, I'll work for you. And then it was like, boom, we were off to the races. And for like, the next two years, man, we were running between Ohio, Michigan, Indiana, we were running everywhere, you know, uh, make buys. We, we dealt with, we dealt with just about everybody, you know, uh, we, we had our share of issues, but it was a different time because, you know, I would tell my boss, hey, I'm leaving Columbus, I'm going to Akron.

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• 39:06Speaker 04

  I'm gonna go up to Muskegon, in a couple other places along the way. I'll be gone for a week. Okay, just make sure you have contact with an agent and let them know if you buy anything, just make sure you're passing off. That was our coverage.

• 39:19Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 39:20Speaker 04

  So, that was it.

• 39:22Speaker 05

  If you guys, if you guys, I'm assuming you weren't necessarily patched at this time with any particular club. How, how, how did you guys get bona fides with these clubs, not belonging to anybody in particular? You're just kind of like independent?

• 39:40Jack Murphy?

  You're one of the hangarounds, as they say, right?

• 39:43Speaker 04

  Well, not for those clubs. We were more like independents.

• 39:47Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 39:47Speaker 04

  So, we, you know, we were around, we were doing business. Tony, like for the brothers, Tony was friends with those guys. So that was the way in. The issues we had, now, the other, they had a couple other chapters, but they had, the only other chapter of brothers they had was up in Akron. And then it was the guys up in Michigan. Now, the guys in Akron, they were old school, hard ass sons of bitches, man. And they really didn't have an affiliation with any major club, because most smaller clubs will.

• 40:19Speaker 05

  Right.

• 40:19Speaker 04

  You know, because they have to.

• 40:21Speaker 05

  Right.

• 40:21Speaker 04

  They didn't. The Hells Angels got along with them. They didn't get, now, the brothers didn't get along with the breed at all. There were plenty of times when we went up there, we'd go hunting for them guys, you know. But, um, but the Hells Angels left them alone, because they did their own thing, you know. They were a violent crew, but nobody really messed with them. They did, you know, for a long time, you know, they did their own dope. Guns, grenades, whatever you wanted, you can get from those guys. So, um, so, we, eventually, Tony, you know, we talked about getting back into the club, and then Tony got back in. Now, the guy who was the president of the club, his name was Wap, he was, you know,

• 41:05Speaker 04

  So, let me explain. When we go into clubs, if they're in disarray, we generally go in and make the club better. We organize the crime better for them, if that makes sense.

• 41:18Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 41:18Speaker 04

  You know, they're all over the board, so we go in there and organize the crime so they're more profitable and more streamlined to make money. And they always liked that about it. Most of our guys that ever went into a club, within either going from a probate or a prospect, you usually went to an officer position right away. Whether it was sergeant in arms, or treasurer, or vice president, or even president. Because we were smart, but we had to be careful. We didn't want to be seen too smart, like we knew too much, because we never wanted to say we were coming for another club, because then they could check that, right? So, we just had to be good criminals. And we had to offer, bring something to the table. And you know, when you go in as a young guy,

• 42:01Speaker 04

  what do you got to offer? I mean, you're a new guy coming in, right? So, you're expected to be a little bit more rowdy, you know, maybe fight a little more, maybe drink a little harder. The drugs were a whole different issue, you know, with that, if you guys want, the whole simulation, you know, deception within ATF became a big to-do, because, you know, guys learned how to appear to be doing drugs, but not. And we got drug tested and nobody ever popped positive, you know? And, uh, but we had to make it appear. Now, the older you've gotten in those clubs, it was easier to fade that off, because it's like, hey, I had a problem a long time ago, I don't fuck around. You know, if you're still dealing at the level you were when you were 25, and you're now 40,

• 42:44Speaker 04

  something's wrong with you. You're a bad crook, right? So, you should have something about you and your game. You should be able to throw some money around, and, and, and look like, you know, it's all smoke and mirrors, you know, make them believe what you want them to believe about your business.

• 42:57Speaker 05

  Yeah. How do you guys, uh, like, avoid, if you go in and you organize a club so they do crime better, how, how do you avoid, like, the, sort of the entrapment angle that a defense attorney is gonna bring?

• 43:14Speaker 04

  Okay, so we don't tell them how to do a crime. We don't, we don't direct the crime.

• 43:18Jack Murphy?

  Right.

• 43:19Speaker 04

  They're talking about how they're moving their drugs and they're talking to us about how they're doing it. And, you know, so we have this thing, you know, it's out there, street theater where we, we do blue on blue deals that make the bad guys look like we're doing actual deals, but it's actually with cops, right? Or other law enforcement and they see, oh, you're legit because and we'll bring them along as bodyguards. We'll pay him and all that kind of stuff, you know? But, um, we don't direct the crime. All we'll do is we'll go in there and we'll, we'll go in there and they'll say, well, how do you guys do it? It's like, well, you know, and, and we'll get into, you know, how much they're selling, where they're selling, who they're selling to, you know, there were a lot of times in these clubs.

• 44:02Speaker 04

  So you, you know, it's like anything else. You spend a couple of years with people, you're going to get relationships. You're good, you're going to find people we actually like, you know? There are only as a good, as Tom once told me, goes, there's only a few people in this world don't have any redeeming qualities. And we came across a few of them, but most of these guys are likable or so do girls. I mean, you know, they're crooks. They could be assholes, but most of them are likable. Then you got the others that are just in these gangs, in these clubs, because they want to be a part of something, feel special. Right? I can't, I, I could tell you probably every guy that's done an infiltration could tell you. They had somebody or a couple of people in the club that we, I had at least three that would come up and say, hey, we want to get in the game. No, you don't.

• 44:47Speaker 04

  Why do you want to get in the game? I need to make money for my family. This isn't the way, dude, you know, if you get caught, you're going to prison.

• 44:53Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 44:54Speaker 04

  And some of those guys you would make see the light and you could steer them. And then some were so hell bent on it, it was like, all right, dude, you want in the game. This is what we need, go find it. And then, you know, you're, you know, you try to give them some consideration on the backside to help them out, but they, but they go to prison.

• 45:12Jack Murphy?

  Right.

• 45:12Speaker 04

  Because they didn't, they don't want to listen. You, you know, you can't just say, hey, I'm a cop, don't do this.

• 45:16Jack Murphy?

  Right.

• 45:16Speaker 04

  But you kind of steer them away that it's not the right thing for you to do.

• 45:19Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, Frank, for, for people, the uninitiated, people, most people are not going to be nearly as initiated as you were. Uh, could you explain a little bit about what an outlaw motorcycle club is and like what that culture is like? The old ladies, the three piece patch, all that kind of stuff?

• 45:35Speaker 04

  Yeah, so you know, so an outlaw motorcycle club is is generally distinguished by a three-piece patch, which means you have the top rocker, you have the bottom rocker, and you have the center patch. And a center patch is usually going to be the mascot, right? So let's just take the outlaws, we'll say, right? So the top of it, we'll say, outlaws. The center patch is the skull and crosspistons, which they refer to as the Charlie. Okay? And then the bottom used to be city designators. Now, some of the old chapters in in most clubs, they'll still have a city designator, but now they've all gone to states for the most part, you know, that they own the state. And then there'll be the MC, the motorcycle

• 46:15Speaker 04

  club, right? So, you know, and then on the front, they'll usually have various other patches and memory patches, and there's stages. So you start as the hangar, and that could be for as long as they want to get to know you, right? And it's changed dramatically. And then you go through a prospect phase. Prospect probate probate are interchangeable, depending on the club you're in, right? And that period could be from three months, it could be up to a year. Okay? Hells Angels have have the longest, it's generally a year. Everybody else folds in there somewhere, right? And then while you're prospecting a probate, you pretty much are owned by the club. So you got a sponsor, somebody sponsors

• 46:58Speaker 04

  you, you have to get, you have to get voted to even be allowed to prospect probate. Okay? So then once they say, okay, then you're responsible to the club. People call you, you got to do all the bullshit. You got to watch the bikes, you got to clean the house. You know, we had guys that were digging trenches for their bosses, their yard work. I mean, whatever, they're not supposed to do that kind of stuff, but pretty much you're their bitch until you get voted in. And the vote has to be unanimous. If one guy says no, you're out. So, and when it was originally, it used to be to the charter, to the chapter, right? Charter is pretty much what the Hells Angels call it. Everybody else is a chapter, right? Some people say charter, but mostly it's Hells Angels that use that.

• 47:42Speaker 04

  And so you come up for vote, right? They vote you in and then you get your full patch, which means in their phases, like a lot of clubs will have like if when you're a probate or probationary, you'll have a patch that says probate or probate probationary member of the club. Sometimes they'll give you the bottom rocker, just the bottom rocker and the MC. Sometimes they give you the bottom rocker and the top rocker sometime. And then you you progressively earn your patch until you get the center patch. Then they have probationary members, guys that they bring in as full patches. You get a full patch right out of the gate. But then you'll have like a P or something that says you're probationary member, which means you're a full patch. You have all the rights, but you're still on probation for a year. So they do that in special cases when they want to bring guys in, they think

• 48:27Speaker 04

  bring something to the table. So it used to be like there was a tree on how this went. Now it's a shrub. Everybody kind of does their own thing on how they bring guys in, you know? And it used to be where the chapter charter would vote for you. Like if you had eight guys in there, those eight guys would vote. Now, a lot of time it goes to a national vote. Like you, you know, because now they send pictures. Does anybody know this guy? They send pictures into the prisons. They do their real due diligence on you to make sure that nobody knows you as a copper and informant before they bring you in. Because they've been stung so many times. I mean, so many clubs been stung two, three times by ETF.

• 49:08Jack Murphy?

  And the the drug, I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, the the drugs, explosives, prostitution, I mean, they're they tend to be involved in a lot of that.

• 49:17Speaker 04

  Yeah, I mean, you're you're going to have, obviously, you got the felons with the guns. There's a lot of extortion. There's, you know, a lot of home invasion. You know, a lot of drug dealing, you know, gun running, a lot of explosives you can purchase. I mean, it's pretty much everything. They they got their hand in prostitution. You know, the thing about motorcycle clubs, it's like, you know, if you're not involved in that game.

• 49:43Speaker 04

  They're ghosts to you. People, they might notice a motorcycle going down the road, right? But they don't notice the club because they stay to their own element unless there's a reason to come out of that element because that's where their power and fear is. So, you know, like take my mom. Oh, I saw a Hell's Angels rolling down, going down the road the other day. No, mom, no, you didn't. I go, what did the, what did the thing on the back look like? She goes, it was like a, a big pig. I go, well, that's not a Hell's Angel, mom. I, you know, but that's what everybody knows, you know? So everybody's a Hell's Angel. Everybody's an outlaw motorcycle gang member. They want as little do with the public as they want the public to do with them for the most part, other than trying to show a good posture like the Toys for Tots and all that stuff that they try to do. But, uh, no,

• 50:28Speaker 04

  I mean, so there, people are oblivious to them unless you live in that world. I mean, still today, I ride down the road, pack a bicycle by, I'm looking over my shoulder to see who they are. Just because I, you know, that doesn't leave you, right?

• 50:38Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 50:39Speaker 04

  So, but people, if you don't live in that world, but it's a violent world. It's a very violent world. I mean, women, you know, there, you know, there's property of women. Now, either you belong to the club or you belong to a member. If you belong to a member, she's hands off. If she belongs to the club, it's game on, right? Um, to, you know, and they serve at the beck and call. Women have, you know, it's, you know, the club, the bike and the woman. Now, a lot of guys won't tell their women that because they're afraid of them, but that's really how it goes. You know what I mean? Women are the, that's the least concern on what's going on with those guys, most of those guys. You know, it's the club first because in the end, it's all about loyalty, loyalty to

• 51:22Speaker 04

  the club. That's what it all, that's what it all comes down to in that patch.

• 51:26Jack Murphy?

  And that, that first infiltration out of Columbus where you guys were running around doing cross state buys and everything. I mean, how, how deep did you end up going on that

• 51:38Speaker 04

  Well, I had my patch for about a year and a half in that one. I became the sergeant-at-arms, my informant became the president. And I mean, we, that was, you know, the brothers, it wasn't a big club, however, it offered a lot. So, we seized the outlaw clubhouse. There was another, a black 1%er club, true 1%er club called The Phantoms. They were based out of Chicago. They had a clubhouse in Columbus. We had another informant who was the only white member of that club. He was married to a black girl and he brought us in. And we had stars and bars on our stuff and they didn't care because it was about business. I'll tell you a funny story about those guys. So, they loved us.

• 52:23Speaker 04

  They just loved us. So, and we met them before we even got in the club because he was running while our other informant was running. So, you had the Avengers, you had the Road Saints, like I said, the Outlaws. I mean, we ended up seizing like six or seven clubhouse. We put like 130 people in jail. It was a lot of dope, a lot of guns. It was crazy.

• 52:43Speaker 04

  But it's one of those things where it wasn't, we weren't focused on one club. I mean, we were in the brothers and we were focused on those guys, but we used it as a catapult to get in because the Outlaws were recruiting us hard to jump over there. And we're like, no, because we didn't want to go, we got a good thing going in that club because we could write our own ticket. We went, Tony and I went wherever we wanted to go at any point in time and the club didn't ask us any questions. Where if we were in a big club like the Outlaws, people be watching you. There's, you know, they have mandatory runs. They have all this other baloney you gotta, you gotta do to be in the club. So, we were in a good spot there, but we were able to, you know, get into a good position with a lot of those clubs and they arrest a lot of people.

• 53:23Jack Murphy?

  And when did that, or what was that decision point when I assumed the US attorney is like, okay, this investigation's over, now we're moving in and making arrests?

• 53:34Speaker 04

  It's the it's never the US Attorney's decision and it's always ATF's decision.

• 53:39Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 53:40Speaker 04

  And ATF's decision is, well, you guys have been running a long time. Now, at this point, we had just made another move into another club up in Michigan, which was going to be really good for us. But it was like, okay, you guys been in a long time, three and a half years doing this. It's time to take it down. We weren't ready to come out, but you're going to do what you gotta do. Because we also got involved in this big cocaine distribution ring where they were bringing Coke in off the coast of Florida in Marathon, and they were running it up to Sevierville in Tennessee. And then they were bringing it up through Columbus and up into the north. But we ended up tying into this young kid who we were buying off of.

• 54:19Speaker 04

  And he laid out the whole operation, which enabled Columbus Police Department DEA to go up on a on a wire, a Title III. And and they're like, hey, we got to take this down. So that was another catalyst that kind of drove our case because they were going to take it down and we would have been outed, you know? So.

• 54:37Speaker 05

  Wow.

• 54:40Speaker 05

  Yeah, it's fascinating. Like when you're because motorcycle gangs, like so much of crime, right? We think of the mafia, we think of motorcycle gangs, we think of street gangs. But they are all partially tied together when it comes to.

• 54:58Speaker 04

  Drug distribution.

• 54:59Speaker 05

  In terms of like spreading drugs, like like a certain element might own a piece of it. But but they're all somehow a lot of times interwoven.

• 55:12Speaker 04

  Well, traditionally, Hells Angels and especially the outlaws and pagans have all done work for traditional LCN. You know, they were their muscle, you know?

• 55:23Speaker 04

  You know, it just historically, it's there. You know, they've always played a role in that, you know, in the traditional, you know, mafia type of deal, doing whether they were moving product or whatever. That's that's always been around. I don't know so much now that it is in the United States because there's really not that much. You know, from what you see, it's more Armenian, Russian and everything else that's controlling the underground more so than the Italians, but you know. I could be a hundred percent wrong on that. I don't know, but the clubs are still involved in what you're seeing more now is the traditional white clubs, right? The, the motorcycle gangs, because there are, you know, the traditional motorcycle gangs, you know, are white and Hispanic,

• 56:05Speaker 04

  right? They, they don't allow the blacks in. If they do, it's an anomaly, right? Like a lot of clubs, like the bigger clubs can't have them. Just can't. They're not accepted.

• 56:16Speaker 04

  But then you have 1% of black clubs like Thunder Guard, you know, outcasts, clubs like that, violent, oh, are they violent? And they kind of pair up with some of the traditional OMGs and they're doing a lot of business together now because, you know, they're all, it's all about controlling turf and whatnot. In the old ways of where, you know, you had, it was very delineated on what clubs were where. Now it's not, they've all crossed over. And that's why you're seeing more shootings, more violence happening because it's just, there's no more lines of delineation. Everybody's starting still fighting for their turf.

• 56:53Speaker 05

  Interesting.

• 56:55Jack Murphy?

  So that one winds down and then as a, as an undercover officer, I mean, I presumably you have to appear in court, right? As an ATF agent and testify?

• 57:06Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 57:07Jack Murphy?

  And, and I mean, does that, I, I'm just curious, like, doesn't that totally blow your cover as an undercover officer, like indefinitely? I mean, in your case it didn't, but I mean, I'm curious how that works.

• 57:18Speaker 04

  Well, so I'll tell you. So most guys that I know that have done these cases and in ATF, there's like 10 or 12 guys that have done these cases and some have done multiple, right? So when you're in those clubs for that long and you're around those guys, you form allegiances and I'm telling you, the night before the takedowns go down, and I've had conversations with all my buddies, it's like, man, I want to call this one dude and just tell him to run.

• 57:46Jack Murphy?

  Right.

• 57:46Speaker 04

  You know, because then the Judas effect comes in, right? Because it, it, it's twofold. The Judas effect comes in because it's there, right? These guys were guys that if on a street, something happened, they had your back. They, they'd kill, they'd fight for you without question, right? So you had that. Then the other side of it is, is okay, I've been this dude for like two years, three years. I knew what I was doing all the time. Now, this is gonna be over and I have to reintegrate back into

• 58:16Speaker 05

  Right.

• 58:17Speaker 04

  Normal agent, right?

• 58:18Speaker 05

  Right.

• 58:18Speaker 04

  So, so you're thinking about that kinda stuff. So, you know, when you look at how these things end, and then I could tell you this much, in every case that I've worked or I've helped work and so, you know, a lot of times they'll bring guys in with gunny's cases when they have take down to come interview certain people to try to move them along to cooperate. When our cases were done, there we had hard heads that didn't wanna cooperate. The day they were taken down, we'd walk in the room and they would look at you and go, "Son of a bitch."

• 58:47Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 58:48Speaker 04

  And some of them would be, "Hey, we understand it was a job," and they get it. And there were others didn't give a shit. You know, one of the biggest things they get wrapped around on, you know, cuz when you're talking to these guys, you're bringing in about ninety percent of your true life, just changing names and, you know. And if things happen, you tell them stories, they, you know, where there might evoke an emotion out of them, they wanna know, "Could you lie about that? Was that real?"

• 59:17Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 59:18Speaker 04

  "You lied about that? Then you're a real asshole." But, okay, cuz they just wanna see how far you would go.

• 59:22Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 59:23Speaker 04

  Sometimes you can straight out lie about some things, but, you know, but, but it was a very unique dynamic. I mean, every case that I did, you, you meet those guys and it's like, man, you know, in another world, we might've been able to be friends.

• 59:36Speaker 05

  Right.

• 59:37Speaker 04

  But then again, if they knew who I really was, would they really be friendly with me and treat me the way they're treating me?

• 59:42Speaker 05

  Right.

• 59:43Speaker 04

  Right.

• 59:44Speaker 05

  You know. But if you weren't, if you weren't ATF and they weren't, you know, in, in an outlaw bike gang, had you met other completely different, two different people, like, this was somebody, and you know, it's interesting because when we talk to like CIA case officers, a lot of times they'll say sort of similar things that, you know, that the people they work with, you know, that their agents or, you know, the people, like, they develop a rapport with them. And this person might be a shithead doing shithead things, but it's like, when you get to know somebody as a human being, it, it, they're Not just all shithead like there's there are elements.

• 1:00:22Speaker 04

  There's yeah, we had it. We had this one guy when I was doing the brother's case. His name was Doc. And Doc, he was a drug dealer, but you know, he wasn't a violent guy. I mean, he was a likeable, real likeable guy, you know? And there were certain members who would get together because it's fair. Clubs are very clickish, you know, they just are. And uh, he called up one day, his son was a drug dealer too, and somebody went up on his to his to his son's house and shot him forty seven times. With an AK, right? And of course, you know, his dad, who could be violent, I mean, he wanted to go start kidnapping people. Because it was, he, his son was involved with some black gangsters and he was just ready to start smoking everybody, you know?

• 1:01:06Speaker 04

  I mean, we felt really bad for him and we're trying to talk him off the ledge, which we did. Because you know, we did have genuine concern. We could have said, yeah, well, go screw yourself and go do whatever you want, Doc. We're not getting involved with that. He'd have probably got himself killed. You know?

• 1:01:20Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:01:20Speaker 04

  In fact, he liked me so much after he, he had, he had a lot of medical problems. We helped him out because he had bad cancer. He, after we, we arrested him within a year, he was dead, but. Tom Strauss, but I went over to visit him after he got, I went to his house. He actually got a dog and he named it after my undercover name. So I guess I got that going.

• 1:01:41Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:01:43Speaker 04

  So, no, you do form those bonds.

• 1:01:45Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:01:46Jack Murphy?

  A- after, uh, after that initial case was prosecuted, I mean, then what kind of, I mean, now you have a ton of experience in this world. I mean, how did the segue into the next? In uh, infiltration happen?

• 1:01:59Speaker 04

  So a part of the case that we were doing in Columbus took us out to Las Vegas. And we were dealing with some guys out there, some, some Mexicans out there and we were buying meth. We were buying pounds of meth and bringing it back. So. Um, so there were some threats made and you know, ATF, they're just terrible. Uh, you know, somebody makes a threat and the first thing is they want to move you, right? I'm like, why don't you go, so let me back up and tell you a quick story. You guys will appreciate this, how times have changed. We had an agent in Cincinnati. He was investigating the Iron Horsemen. Okay. And they tried to run him down with a car while he was on the street. Now, the sack at the time was Bill Wood, an ornery man.

• 1:02:42Speaker 04

  And, you know, he's a quarterback at South Carolina. He is a reverend. He, he calls up my boss in Columbus. And he says, I want Frank and I want Dan. He goes, you send him to Columbus and he's going to meet some boys there. He goes, and you're going to go have a talk with the president of that club and you're going to tell them what's what. And we did. He sent us down there. We were four of us went with one of the, one of the agents from Cincinnati. Knocked on the door to check the president come out. He goes, can I help you? Goes. And he laid it out. He goes, you guys fucked up. He goes, we're going to find out who did it and then we're going to fuck with your club every step of the way. Until you guys turn in who did it.

• 1:03:27Speaker 04

  Within 24 hours, they turn a guy over. That's how you handle business. It's not like you sit there and chew your nails. They knew, again, crooks don't, crooks don't respect. Excuse me, sir. How are you doing today? They, power, fear, might, that's what they respect. If they don't fear you, they're not going to do anything you say. They're not going to come around. They're not going to talk to you because they're going to look at you like you're a big puss, you know? So that ended that. I mean, they turned a guy in. Well, ATF didn't do that in my case. It was like Frank, there's four offices that are open and three of them were shit and Las Vegas was the only one.

• 1:04:05Speaker 04

  And my wife, awesome. She was always willing to work and I, I, you know, I had a conversation with her before we, you know, we got married. And it was like, look, because we, we got married during my case. And I did that case. Yeah, I was, and I, and I told her, I said, you know, this is what I do. This is what I like to do. And she liked to move. So when I asked her, I said, how about Las Vegas? She goes, let's go because I knew the boss out there and I'd already been out there and I knew the work was good. Plus, they had just started an investigation because they called me, knew I was getting transferred. They were starting a case into the Vagos who were recruiting real heavily out there at the time. So we packed up and we moved.

• 1:04:47Speaker 04

  And as soon as we got there, it was like, okay, Vagos are recruiting. So I brought my informant, Tony out to Las Vegas with us. And, uh, well, not with me and my wife, he lived in here. We got a house and he was living here and that's where I was living. And, um, with, with stump. And, um, so they said, just go to this tattoo shop. And this guy Sharky, who was a Vago, he goes, he'll recruit you guys right in. You guys are big dudes. He'll ask you right in. So I didn't know how good the tattoo shop was. So the informant was going to get the tattoo because we needed a couple hours just to fill these guys out. So I said, Tony, I'll pay for it. Get whatever you want. It

• 1:05:29Speaker 04

  was a terrible tattoo. However, it was, oh, it was so bad. It was so bad. But about halfway through the tattoo, Sharky comes out with his colors. And of course, we're playing stupid because we can't act like we know anything about club life. He goes, do you guys know what these are? And he held up a set of colors of Vagos and we're like, no, what's that? He goes, the Vagos. He goes, you've never heard of us? I go, no, dude, we're from back, we're back east. We know who you guys are. So he goes into this whole spiel. He goes, why, because we rode there on motorcycles. And he goes, uh, he goes, why don't you guys come around? It was, this is how he goes. He goes, why don't you guys come around? We're having a meeting like, uh, three days from now. Now we're in a

• 1:06:09Speaker 04

  doucha. And that's how easy that was. Getting invited in over there. Then that case, again, you know, with the whole backstopping issues, you know, started to, we, you know, at first it was good because we were there and I think that case went a total like 18 months. But, um, you know, we were getting, we were buying off of people. You know who we bought off of? Uh, which you guys will find funny. You know, yeah, what's that, that, that show, uh?

• 1:06:38Speaker 05

  The Pawn Shop?

• 1:06:39Speaker 04

  Oh, Pawn Shop? Yeah. Yeah. Bought off of the, we bought off of Joe Henderson. The, I used to go in that shop all the time because our, all the time and buy dope.

• 1:06:52Speaker 04

  It's, yeah. So we said, because it was only like a two blocks down from the ATF office, believe it or not. I mean, it's, it's the shop, they make it look huge. It was this little box, but we used to go in there and buy dope all the time. Um, we put him in prison for a few years. Uh, but anyway, long story short. So we're going around, you know, now.

• 1:07:14Speaker 04

  Tramp, Terry, who was the national president at the time, he took a liken to the informant and I. He took a real liken to us. And at the same time, we were trying to get into Vegas. Darren Kozlowski was trying to get into the Hollywood chapter.

• 1:07:32Speaker 04

  So we were making our inroads. Now, the thing is, is that we would know him because we, we were getting a little bit more credibility on our end. So we were going to help him move along. So I think I can't, I don't know how long into his investigation he was in, but he had an informant, got T-boned on a motorcycle and got killed.

• 1:07:55Speaker 04

  But Darren had given him his card from when he was back in Milwaukee, or it was long, it was a long, yeah. I think it was a Milwaukee card. But anyway, so that kind of dies off. And Darren's working through his thing over there. We're working through our thing in Las Vegas and we're, we're cut through. Form and I are constantly traversing back and forth between Las Vegas and more so than even the club is, right? And we're getting to know all these guys. Well, we come up and we're going to, you know, now they're going to allow us to prospect, right? So, so there were some stuff that happened. So they had this run up in Reno and the Vagos were trying to make a statement up there, right?

• 1:08:40Speaker 04

  So they were going to go at it with the Hells Angels. So again, we go up there, they have us towed all their guns up there, the informant and I. So we bring all the guns up. So they have this master plan that they're going to go to this Hells Angels bar. And I can't remember the name of it to save my life. And what they're going to do is they're going to wait for the Hells Angels to come up, the Reno chapter. And when they come in there, what they're going to do is they're going to push them out the back and they're going to beat the living hell out of them. That's the plan. Well, we're having this meeting as a club. And there's me and Tony who aren't, we're not even prospects at this point in time. They hand him a bat, me a hammer and two other guys. And they say, get behind the bar.

• 1:09:25Speaker 04

  And they go, well, we flush these dudes out. It's your job to beat the hell out of them.

• 1:09:29Jack Murphy?

  Holy shit.

• 1:09:30Speaker 04

  And of course I'm looking at Tony and we're just, you know, you can do nothing but laugh, right? We're chuckling. And so we go stand back there and we're just praying at God that something happens that we don't have to do this. Cause it's going to turn, we, we don't know.

• 1:09:43Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:43Speaker 04

  So we're in, we're out there for about a half hour. And then I'll come a couple of Vagos come out and they say, hey, okay, everything's good. They've had some negotiations in there. We're good to go. We're like, okay. So that broke that, which was awesome, right? That, you know, but the stress was, was, was tremendous. And so we go back and now they're going to have a, they're going to have a, a, a national meeting. And it was happening in Las Vegas. So this is where we're going to start prospecting. Me, my informant and Cos. So we all start prospecting on the same day. But you get brought up like, so there was probably a hundred members there, a hundred, 200 members. You come into, I think we're at the VFW hall.

• 1:10:25Speaker 04

  You go in there and they bring you up on a stage and they start, and they're like, uh, you know, are you willing to die for the club? Are you willing to fight for, you willing to do all this stuff, right? You're like, yeah, you know, yeah, I'll do whatever I gotta do. Then they asked, is there anybody in here who's got anything negative to say about these brothers? Or why they shouldn't get into the club? And because we did what we did up in Reno, which wasn't anything but just stand there in terror. They, they, they were all, I mean, these brothers are down. They stood up for the club and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, you know, all this mess. And, uh, so we ended up getting our prospect rockers, right? So we were prospecting for about three months. Now there, there were times like, like stupid stuff.

• 1:11:08Speaker 04

  Um, yeah, you know, one thing to bother guys like us are some of these cop clubs out there that want to affiliate with. Yeah. Clubs. Yeah. And then, and then, and then a lot of the military clubs. Yeah. Recruit out of the military hard, right? Yeah. We were at a thing and we were at a, we were at an event in, uh, when we were with Vagos, where, uh, I, I can't remember if it was the choir boys or what cop club it was.

• 1:11:35Speaker 04

  But we were sitting there with somebody's, with, with some of them in a couple of other clubs. And these guys were pointing out their own undercover guys that were in a crowd. Yeah. Like that's, that guy over there, that guy. We're like going, you guys are pieces of shit. Yeah. You know? And that's like, and, and we were at, uh, we were at some function in Las Vegas. And thi- this guy, Jack Roberts, he was an old school Las Vegas cop, big Irishman, hands the size of my head. And he would talk about getting in fights with the mafia dudes all the time. They would go to the bars just to get fights. He's just, just a great guy, right? And so he was the only guy that was like covering me. Him, he and Randy Probst was another agent in the office.

• 1:12:19Speaker 04

  They're really the only guys that knew what was going on. So these guys contact Jack Roberts from the Henderson Police Department and they say, hey, we're going to go out there and cover this event. And Jack goes, well, hey dude, if you're going, go over. Cause if you go over, they won't mess with you. You know what I mean? They, you're taking pictures, they expect that. These two, these show up, man, they're taking pictures, they're trying to dress like they're, they're blending. And of course, of course, Tony and I are the prospects, right? And CJ, who was our president, comes over and he goes, hey, go find out who those guys are. And I'm looking, and I know, cause I know they're cops, cause they couldn't be anything else. Yeah. And Jack said there might be two guys out there floating around. I'm going, and I'm looking at Tony. So we walk over there and okay, we gotta do, we gotta do.

• 1:13:02Speaker 04

  I'm like, you know, and we had guns. I had a gun, Tony didn't have a gun, I had a gun. And I walk over there and I'm like, hey, man, give me, who are you? And they're like, oh, no, I'm a, I said, give me your driver's license. I'm like, fuck you guys. I go, give me your driver's license.

• 1:13:17Speaker 04

  So they're looking, I go, you better give me a driver's license, this would be a problem. So they hand us over their driver's license, right? Now, they're, they weren't, they weren't their true name licenses, right? And then I was told we had to take their cameras. So we took their cameras and we smashed them, right? And at this point now, the club has come in and circled them. And it's like, well, it's out of our hands. I go, they're gonna beat them, they're gonna beat them right now. So at this point, CJ is the voice. And he's telling them, get the fuck out of here, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So they start walking back to their car. And of course, CJ tells Tony and I again, follow them back to their car and get their license plate.

• 1:13:59Speaker 04

  Now, Jack is off on the side watching this. And I'm assuming these guys got guns, they have no idea who we are. Yeah. So we're kind of like following them, half stepping, waiting for them. And Jack is watching because he doesn't know what they're gonna do either. They're gonna pull their guns and start shooting, right? So this is a slow walk of about 25 yards to this car. Well, we end up getting to the car and they get in, we get the license plate step. You notice dumb sons of bitches drove their personal car? I, I, you know, I mean, it doesn't sound like, you know, there are not heroics. And people are like, oh, you know, like the boobies. It's, it's things like that, though, when it's happening and you're sitting there.

• 1:14:40Speaker 04

  And you, you don't know if you're gonna get shot by, you know, other police officers because of who they believe you are. And you're getting ordered to do things, there's a lot of times in these, in these investigations. Your chapter P or whoever, president or whoever, they tell you to do things. You don't say, well, why? Right. Do it, you know? It's, so there's, there was a lot of that. I mean, when we were with the Vagos, again, so this was our final mud check before we were gonna get patched in. It's about 2:30 in the morning, we were all out. We go over to this one guy's house, dog. And we're all sta- it's like three, they're all fucked up, you know, and they go, hey, we gotta go collect.

• 1:15:21Speaker 04

  They go, you guys wanna go? Well, that's not like, that's, you're gonna go. Right. Say no. So we're like, they go, yeah, we're going. They go, where we going? They go, don't you worry, we're going. They go, we're gonna take your car. We're gonna take two trucks. Take off anything that says, you know, uh, you know, that's relates to the club, whatever, go outside, mask, you know, put something over your license plate. And I'm looking at Tony, I go, this is, I go, either they're playing with us, or this is gonna be bad. So we go do what we gotta do. And then this one dude, Tree, who is an absolute asshole. He's a guy that rode around with a bike. He had a bungee thing over to hold his tanks on.

• 1:16:02Speaker 04

  Bad. Anyway, so we get in our car, I'm driving, Tony's in the front, he gets in the back, he goes, hey, you guys got any guns on you? I'm like, no, which I did. I go, no, we don't have any guns. He goes, well, all I got is this thirty eight. He goes, you don't got anything bigger? I go, nope, this is, no, I didn't bring anything out tonight. So we driving to North Las Vegas and we go into this trailer park. There's probably twenty trailers in here, right? Now, mind you, it's about three o'clock in the morning.

• 1:16:29Speaker 04

  We pull in there, three, my car and two trucks. And they go up to the door, they don't knock, they just kick it in. Now, it's a single wide trailer. And there's like, I think eight or nine of us. And as soon as we get, well, Tony and I, we're trying to get in the door. Once we get in the door, before we could even get in the door, they got this dude and they are platt, just beating the living shit out of him. Well, apparently, he didn't pay him for some meth and some other things and he owed him. So they're beating the living hell out of him. And they're like, and they tell us, they go, pull the phones out of the wall. So we pull the cords out of the wall. And they go, go check the rest of the house.

• 1:17:09Speaker 04

  So of course, what do we find? We find a four and a five year old and a fifteen year old or so girl. And we pull them out. And all I told Tony is, I said, look, I don't give a shit what happens in here. I go, they don't get near the kids. Yeah. Fuck it at that point, right? And they never made any, but we sat and watched. The wife got up, her girlfriend, I don't know what she was, she got up and got out of, off the couch to try to intervene, because they were beating us up. They knocked her over the couch. Now, This went on because they started hauling out all his motorcycle parts. They loaded his bike into the truck. This went on for about an hour. Do you think anybody called the police? Not one peep. Not one peep. That was one of the best charges we had because we got him for kidnapping,

• 1:17:52Speaker 04

  home invasion. I mean, so you know how I was talking about cover teams? I had one guy that was was my cover guy Randy. And, you know, we were out just social. If you're doing an operation, you got, you know, actually doing a buy, you got to get the right people out there. Well, we were just out socially. So after this is over, I'm looking at Tony, I'm going, how the hell am I going to explain this one? Because we basically did a home invasion. Right. Of course, the one thing I want to tell you guys is, one of the things is, before you go into these cases, you have meetings with the US Attorney's Office, that, you know, the prosecutor's office, and you talk about what you can and cannot do. Okay. You know, fighting, don't throw the first punch,

• 1:18:36Speaker 04

  don't throw the last kick. Drugs, can't do drugs. We've had guys that were able to carry user amount of drugs because that's the role they played. So they could actually, you know, give little bumps if they needed to. You know, but it was, you know, it wasn't anything, you know, really crazy that you could do, right? Right. So, but you had those talks, you know, when we talked about, you know, language, whether it be swearing or, you know, racial comments, you know, you don't want to sound worse than the criminals, right? That's a problem because, you know, you got to go testify. So that was all tempered and that was all approved. Well, we hadn't talked about doing a home invasion yet. Now, mind you, up until this

• 1:19:18Speaker 04

  point, Steve Martin had done the Warlocks case. I did the Brothers case, and then I rolled right into this one. I didn't even take a break, which became an issue because after six months into the case, I got called off the carpet, meeting up to San Francisco where our division was. And they were railing me going, you were supposed to take a year off. I go, I never got notified. I was supposed to take a year off. They go, you didn't get notified? I go, no. I go, tell me where that, tell me where that memo is. Right, yeah. I go, I never got told I was taking a year off. And Gonzalez, who was the, or Rodriguez, who was the, who was the deputy assistant over that thing, he called me, goes, how far are you in? I go, I'm six, seven months in.

• 1:20:03Speaker 04

  He goes, all right. He goes, fuck it. He goes, just, just keep going then. You know what I mean? So I didn't really have any break between those two cases. Wow. Boom, boom. So, you know, so before I called my boss, who was a putz, I called the US Attorney's Office and laid it out to them. Because generally speaking, if the US Attorney's Office is okay with it, ATF ain't gonna balk. Right. So I called them and explained what's going on. They go, well, other than somebody getting beat up and whatnot, uh,

• 1:20:33Speaker 04

  anything else happen? They go, just send somebody out there to take a report. That, that something was done to go get the statement that they ended up using against it anyway. So when I went back and I told my boss, I go, hey, I already talked to the US Attorney's. They're good with it. He was like, okay, keep going then. No, no issues, you know, because it was a different whole, different reporting mechanism then. But, um, you know, and then that case was going on and we were going good. And it's after the Reno where we had gotten into that and we got voted in as prospect. And we'd been running back and forth for, you know,

• 1:21:06Speaker 04

  two, three months and prospect period for them back then was about three months. And they come up with, they're going to have an officer's run down to Mexico. And it's like, so I call our attache up in Mexico and I go, hey, we gotta, we gotta come to, which I didn't know shit. I go, we're gonna come to Mexico. I go, is it okay to bring our guns? He goes, yeah, you can bring your guns. He goes, uh, you know, you just gotta check them in at the embassy. I go embassy? I go, no, no, no. I go, I go, we're, I go, we're coming across with the club. He goes, you can't come into Mexico with any guns. He goes, and we're like, what's the big deal? He goes, because the reporting requirements here are, if you come into Mexico as a law enforcement officer, he goes, we have to tell the federales, the prosecutor, everybody that you're gonna come in. Because you might as well come across the border and shoot yourself in the head. Right.

• 1:21:51Speaker 04

  They're like, okay, well, how the hell do we get around this? So we started, I had to start working our magic. So we put records in text that said that we had been caught smuggling and doing some other stuff that we told the club. If we go down to the border, we're gonna have trouble getting back. We're not, you know, we'll get back, but we're probably gonna get arrested. So we had worked that out and then, um,

• 1:22:15Speaker 04

  And then it was, uh, so right at the last minute, they changed it. And they did the officers meeting in, in, uh, in, uh, California. They told the informant, they go, they're like, you guys don't have to go. Cause they changed it last minute. They go, they have enough prospects out there. They go, and they said, next week, you guys will probably get, you guys will get your patches. We'll just give them to you here. So like, right on. Well, they go down to this officers meeting and Darren Kozlowski goes there and he gets his patch. So he's a patch member. Okay. I think he held the patch the shortest of anybody in the history of ATF because what happened was

• 1:23:00Speaker 04

  the, his informant, old lady who got killed, she got pissed because ATF wasn't doing anything for her. She thought she should get some money or something. So she went to the club with his card. Now, the fatal, the fatal error, of course, we're young again, we're not thinking, you know, cause his nickname that he used for the club was cause. Okay. I, you know, we, we still laugh about this till, till this day. But anyway, that's what he did. Well, they got, she gave him the business card. They start calling around. If I get this wrong, he'll correct me when I see him. They start calling around and they found him at the Long Beach office. So they found Darren Kozlowski, ATF agent at the Long Beach office.

• 1:23:44Speaker 04

  So, you know, Darren, like all of us, you try to scoot out, you go home and he had a house with a garage and whatnot. So he comes back to his house. He goes in his house and he gets knocked on the door. Uh, Junkie Ed, who was an international enforcer for the club, Sergeant Arms, he and some other members go in his house and say, where you been? He goes, what do you mean where I've been? I've been right here. They go, no, you haven't. Cause they were, they had set up surveillance on him. And they go, what are you driving? He goes, I drove, I, I can't remember what he said he was driving. They go, no, you weren't. Cause they'd broken his garage and saw what he was, what he was, what he, what he had in there. So, cause he used to park a car down around the corner, you know, different cars. So he can come and go. Those tactics have all changed. So.

• 1:24:28Speaker 04

  So they took his patch, right? They didn't, they didn't do anything to him because they're not that stupid. If they're suspecting he's an ATF agent, they're not going to do anything to him. So he calls me and he tells me what's going on and I'm like, holy shit. You know, the concern is, are you okay? And the second is, how the hell are we going to circumvent ATF on this one? You know what I mean? Cause he's got to report back and uh, it wasn't like an hour later, I get this call at the R undercover house in Las Vegas and it's Chunky Ed and Tramp, who's the international president. And they're on the phone and of course, they obviously don't think I know anything about this. So I'm on the phone and I go, hey, well, cause Terry liked us.

• 1:25:13Speaker 04

  So he'd call us and I go, what's going on? He said, we got a problem with your buddy. I go, which one? He goes, cause I go, what's the problem? Now, we had built a relationship with cause saying that we were doing business back in the Midwest prior to coming out here. Uh huh. So here's what he said. He goes, he goes, I think cause followed you out here to continue his case on it. When he saw you got in the club, he, he started getting around the club too. If you come and get after us, he goes, that's a big problem. And I'm like, you know, I'm like pretending I'm going, oh, fuck. I go. So I go, well, what do you guys, how do you propose? What are you going to do? He goes, and then at this point, Tramp goes, we're going to kill him. Junkie Ed goes, I'm going to get off the phone now.

• 1:25:58Speaker 04

  So he gets off the phone. So it's just me and Terry on the phone now that I had this whole, this whole recording. And he's telling me, he goes, he goes, we got to do something. He goes, he goes, I don't expect that you'll do it because you'll be the first one they look at. He goes, but we got to do something. So they were just talking about how they were, you know, because, because of course cause took all his stuff up and out it, but they had a starting place to look for him at his office. Right?

• 1:26:25Speaker 04

  So at this point, we're like, oh, man, I don't know. We're hit. We're gonna have to take a break. So of course I get off the phone with him. I gotta make a call to my office and tell him what's going on. And I ended up calling my sack. I didn't even talk to my boss really because he was a goof. And they're like, well, you guys gotta shut it down. I go, I think we're good. Of course, you know, being optimistic, I go, I think we could survive it. We should be able to stay. We can get rid of cause, but we could, we should be able to stay. They're like, you ain't fucking staying and investigating. So we had to go meet a couple of guys that were our sponsors and we ended up meeting them and they hadn't even known what our, my own chapter didn't even know what was going on at the time.

• 1:27:08Speaker 04

  And Tony and I ended up turning our cuts into them and said, hey, we gotta, we gotta bolt out of here for a couple of months till we see what's going on.

• 1:27:15Speaker 05

  Right.

• 1:27:15Speaker 04

  You know what I mean? And then when it up happened, because in these investigations, you always have running affidavits from day one. We learned the hard way. So everything is going, as everything happens, the affidavit builds, the F they build, the charges build. So if something like this happens, we can go right to the prosecutor with what we got before grand jury, or even just get a warrants issued and go ahead and take everybody down. So that's what we did. We broke out of there and then it was like the following week, we ended up hitting Las Vegas, a bunch of places in California. And there was another investigation that was going on down in San Diego. I think we ended up getting like 60 members out of that or something like that.

• 1:27:54Speaker 05

  But you guys are clean because they track all it all back to cause. And you were just two guys associated with him who, who they thought was being investigated by cause. Fellow travelers. And you just went to the wind. So you didn't.

• 1:28:07Speaker 04

  Yeah, they, they weren't looking at us like we were anything bad.

• 1:28:10Speaker 05

  Right.

• 1:28:10Speaker 04

  But you know, we're stupid and naive to think that, oh, we could stay in this investigation. We'll be clean. They just think it's cause.

• 1:28:15Speaker 05

  Right.

• 1:28:16Speaker 04

  You know, it comes to a point where you're so investigative, invested in these investigations.

• 1:28:20Speaker 05

  Right.

• 1:28:21Speaker 04

  That sometimes you get tunnel vision and you lose sight, but that's why we always had guys. We, there was a peer support program in ATF, but it was guys that had did these types of investigations. Yeah. Cause Steve Martin happened to be a supervisor up in, up in San Francisco at the time who had done those other things. So obviously he came down and talked to me and smacked me around a little bit and gave me my common sense back and said, Frank, you can't, you can't stay in, you gotta go. And then I didn't even think I had to move. But then my house, my tires got slashed on my, on my G car. And then there were a couple of Vagos who were hanging around a building. And then of course ATF lost its mind on there. Right. So, so that's where it was. Um, so what's gonna happen to me now? So I'm talking to my wife.

• 1:29:07Speaker 04

  Of course, okay. So if you guys don't know me, I'm a big Beagle fan. We've had Beagles for 30 plus years. I got three of them now. We had two then. And they're going, you guys, you gotta go out of your house and stay in a hotel for, until we can move you. That lasted one night. And we went back to the house. I told my wife. I, I'd rather take my chance with the dogs being at the house. I got guns. Yeah. The thing is, odds are, I'm not gonna say they wouldn't do anything, cause there are some Looney Tunes and whatnot, but they know that if they really did something like that. They don't like that federal. It would come back. The blowback would be tremendous, right? I mean, that doesn't help me or my wife at the time. We didn't have any kids, but, um, so anyway.

• 1:29:50Speaker 04

  So, you know, I get, so ATF being ATF, I had no desire. Headquarters was the least place I wanted to be. Now, at the time, John Cooper, who's a very dear friend of mine. When our case was having problems, he, he gets sent out from our special operations division with another guy, Pete McCarthy, to talk to us about the issues. And we rail into him and it's like, god damn you guys, you just suck. And it wasn't even his fault, because he just got there. So when the case busted up.

• 1:30:25Speaker 04

  They said, okay, pick places you want to go. I said, okay, well, I like to go to the Midwest or to the South or whatever. And I picked my four locations. They said, okay, and write up a justification letter. So I did. They said, okay, you'll go to one of those four places.

• 1:30:41Speaker 04

  The next morning I go in the office about six o'clock and there's a teletype that I've been transferred to headquarters to go work in our new undercover shop. I was not a happy camper, not a happy camper at all. However, it's one of the best things I ever did because Coop had worked undercover. There was me, another guy, Craig Carrington, great, another undercover agent, Al Phoenix. So they were bringing guys into the branch who actually worked undercover and understood what was needed to get this thing off the ground. So I spent, you know, two, two years up there, learning about that whole process and getting integrated with everybody else who was doing it, whether it was, you know, the, you know, every part of the government, really.

• 1:31:24Jack Murphy?

  Right.

• 1:31:25Speaker 04

  And then, and then I was ready to go. Now, in the meantime, my wife and I,

• 1:31:32Speaker 04

  I was fine with the Beagles. My wife wanted kids. So we ended up going to Russia and adopted a couple of kids too at the same time. So I'm getting ready to push out and I had a good relationship with a couple of deputy assistant directors who had been my sacks. And I go, well, this is where I want to go. And the one Malcolm Brady, really great guy, he goes, he goes, no, he goes, you're going to be, he goes, you're going to go be the supervisor in Youngstown in your hometown. I go, I really don't want to do that, Malcolm. He goes, well, I'm going to tell you what, what's going to happen. You're going to do it or I'm going to fuck you. He goes, I'm going to put you somewhere you don't want to be. And I go, well, that's not nice, Malcolm. So I didn't even put him for the job. You have to put him for the job. I didn't get put in for the job.

• 1:32:17Speaker 04

  I went for an interview. I had my interview and then after the Tate was, he was the sack in New Orleans. I had my interview. Two minutes later, he goes, Frank, congratulations. You're going to Youngstown. I go, God almighty. So, which was good. I went to Youngstown and, you know, that got me to Youngstown and I was there for five years. And then that's how we rolled into the Aryan Brotherhood case.

• 1:32:42Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, yeah, man. I mean, that sounds like a pretty crazy one. How did that start to come about for, on your end?

• 1:32:52Speaker 04

  There were Tom Doyle and a couple guys up at the Eastlake Police Department in Lake County. The Hells Angels been operating in Cleveland and they had opened up a new chapter up in up in Lake East. They called it.

• 1:33:11Speaker 04

  And and they'd always been involved in something, right? Well, they and and there were some Aryan Brotherhood members that they had been dealing with up there who were manufacturing machine guns. You know, when I talk about people having no redeeming quality, this guy had no redeeming quality. A.J. Bloomquist, just total whack job. So they say, hey, are you so they called me, they said, hey, we got like four or five informants. Would you be willing to come up here and interview them? And then we'll go from there, you know, if there's something that you guys think you want to do being ATF. Right? So we scheduled, we go up and interview and we find two guys. Now they didn't know each other.

• 1:33:51Speaker 04

  One was going to be, he was going to work on the Cleveland chapter of the HA. And we had a captain in the Aryan Brotherhood who they had gotten out. He almost beat a guy to death in a bar, but he wanted to cooperate, right? He was a captain for in the state of Ohio.

• 1:34:11Speaker 04

  So we went up and we talked, now I was the supervisor, right? Now, at that point, when you're a 14 or a group supervisor or a RAC, whatever, you're not supposed to work on recovery. You're supposed to oversee the crap, right? Well, I had a really good sack that I know Chris Sedowski, you know, he let me do a lot of things and a lot of bosses were never allowed to do because he let me go help out on J. Dobbs's case. He let me help go help on a couple of the Warlocks, all these cases that I was able to go play with and which was nice. And so, so we're going to start this investigation and we're going to, we're going to buy machine. Well, we're going to go meet A.J. because he can make machine gun stents. He was manufacturing them. So.

• 1:34:56Speaker 04

  We get it all together and we're gonna go meet at this bar in Cleveland. And so we show up and I bring in another undercover from Virginia, Jeff Gradman. And he's gonna be the guy that gets introduced. Well, you know, I didn't dress like anything. So we're talking. And so I'm introducing him to Jeff and I go, he's gonna go with you. And he goes, that won't work. I go, what do you mean it won't work? And this is where informants, this is, you know, some people call them confidential human sources. We just call them informants, you know?

• 1:35:32Speaker 04

  He goes, he won't do. I go, why? He goes, because I described you. I told him about you.

• 1:35:39Speaker 04

  And of course I'm looking at him and I go, his name was Fred. I go, Fred, what'd you tell him? He goes, well, I told him your name was Junkyard. I got saddled with that for almost a year and a half. I go, what the fuck? Junkyard? He goes, yeah. I go, what else did you tell him? Well, that you did time with my dad in county. Okay, so that's how we know each other. I go, okay. And I go, and what else did you tell him? He goes, that you and my dad would go into bars and you would wrestle bears for fun. I'm like, you're an idiot, right? So, so we're sitting there. And so I'm looking at Jeff. I go, well, you're going. So I have to call my boss. I, I, I called, I didn't call my, I called my boss and I go, hey, I go, here's the situation. I go,

• 1:36:24Speaker 04

  I gotta go to this meeting because if I don't go, it's not gonna go anywhere. He goes, all right, well, just go to the first meeting and back out. Well, 18 months later, there was no backing out because AJ, although he liked it, he loved me. He just took a real liking to me. I got a phone call from that guy. Seven o'clock every morning, I had to be up and ready to record him because it was like clockwork. He had a construction. It was called AB Construction. Very ingenious. And he, he would employ on the books, all of the ABs that were getting out on parole. Now, Tim Miracle, who was the adult parole officer for Ohio, he had all these guys on probation and parole. So he knew all of them and who, what they were about. Yeah.

• 1:37:06Speaker 04

  So anyway, so we get into this negotiation with, with AJ about machine guns.

• 1:37:13Speaker 04

  So he won't get the kits. I had to get the kits. I give him the three machine gun kits at first. He makes them in three days, come back, beautiful powder coated, function, perfect. So I said, well, let's see what he can do. So I said, I'm going to order 10. And of course, the US Attorney's Office. Well, how do you know he's going to give them to you? And he wants to, I go, because these guys don't operate like that. I go, it's a bond. If they tell you they're going to do something, they're going to do it.

• 1:37:36Speaker 05

  Right.

• 1:37:37Speaker 04

  So, so we go and I get him 10 kits and about a week later, he brings them to me, right? And he brings me nine and then he says, and then he goes, well, let's, let's go back to my office. He goes, I gotta, I want to talk to you guys about something anyway. So I go, where's the 10th? And he goes, I'll show you. So we go back and he goes in the back room and he pulls out this stand that he had powder coated pink. And he put these little powder puff girls all over it as a joke. He goes, he goes, man, he goes, I was just joking around. If he goes, if you want, I'll powder coat it black. I go, no, no. I go, I'll take that one. That's kind of cool because that's great jury appeal. I mean, you know what I mean? Look at this idiot. He don't even care. He's making guns that look, they're pink with powder puff girls on them.

• 1:38:17Speaker 04

  That's what his disregard. Well, AJ had ties into cops who were, you know, who were running information for him. That were selling them body armor. I mean, this dude, he was a captain and Aryan brother too. Criminal, pure criminal, lot of identity theft, robbery, you name it. He was into it, you know? He was married to a nurse, trapped. He had a kid who, you know, as we got around him, the kid ate Cheetos and Coke. That's all he ate and he, and he named him Dietrich Adolf Blumquist. Real treat, right?

• 1:38:47Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:38:48Speaker 04

  So, so this starts to go, well, while we're in there, you know, we go up and we're buying some dope off him. So he pulls in, he goes, hey, man, you guys ride motorcycles?

• 1:39:02Speaker 04

  And at this point, I'm like, oh shit. I go, you know, the ears go, and I go, yeah, we ride motorcycles. Why? What do you think? And he goes, well, listen, there in brotherhood has been trying to develop a club nationally for years. He goes, and he goes, and we got enough guys out right now that we're poised to do this. I go, no shit. He goes, we're going to start it here in Ohio. I go, so what do you need from me? He goes, you got five guys? He goes, I got five guys. I can give five guys. I got five guys I know. And I'm committing before I can even do anything, but we're gonna ride motorcycles. So hey. And I said, well, what's, what's the objective here AJ? You know, what are we doing? He goes, well, the objective is for us to kill the Hells Angels and take over. Holy shit.

• 1:39:43Speaker 04

  I go, that's a great plan. So, you know, we break. I mean, it's going, I mean, it's perfect because, you know, see, the thing is people don't know about ATF or really don't understand about ATF is. A lot of law enforcement agencies, when you talk about there's going to be guns there and these guys are have a real potential for violence. Lot of agencies back off of that.

• 1:40:07Speaker 04

  ATF, the more guns, the more violent criminal you are, that's our wheelhouse. We want you to have guns there. We want you to be violent because that gives us our whole crux to be in it because we used to get in these arguments with ATF about, well, you're buying all kind of dope. We don't see a lot of guns, dudes. They're carrying them. Most crooks won't get off the gun that they're using to defend themselves. You know, they got smart. They learn. Yeah. So, anyway, so I go back and I talk to my sack, Chris, and I say, here's what's going on. I go, and, and I'm gonna have to be in it because he's expecting me because they're gonna run this like a AB council. You know, we're gonna have members and, and whatnot. So it was like, man, I got five guys and my, my, my very, very dear friend Freddie Ray.

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• 1:42:20Speaker 04

  Was the only state local guy who I just said, Fred, you want to work some undercover with us? And he's like, he had no idea what he was getting into, none. So, but that guy could buy dope off a rock. And, you know, and so we started down this road, right? We started getting to know each other. So we had like a, on St. Patrick's Day, we're going to bring our five guys and they're going to bring their five guys to a bar. So we bring our five guys in and we're talking to their five guys and we have no idea who these guys are. They introduce us to themselves and we spend a good amount of time there and we leave. So we go get the brief by Tim Miracle and the, in the, in the task force guys, because we had formed a task force up there. And Tim goes, you guys know

• 1:43:04Speaker 04

  who you met with? I go, you know, one guy named David, another guy JB. They go, he goes, dude,

• 1:43:14Speaker 04

  David is the head of the AB for the state of Ohio. He brought it back from Phoenix. He goes, he just got out like six months ago for six counts of attempted murder and he killed a guy in jail and stabbed a guy and shot a guy. But they always kept running this stuff concurrent. He's dead now. He got his head about sawed off out in Victorville in federal penitentiary by the ABs because they thought he was stealing. But anyway, so we meet these guys and it's like, these guy, JB, 25 years for murder, Paulie, he got hit for hauling dope between Oklahoma and he got motor who was, he was robbery, whatever, you know, all these guys had bought, which was way right. I mean, it was right where we wanted to be. It was like, this couldn't get any better,

• 1:43:57Speaker 04

  right? Now, our thought was how do we control the beast, you know, without getting into too much shit with these guys, right?

• 1:44:06Speaker 04

  Well, so on Hitler's birthday, on April 20th, that's when we had our coming out party and the club was called the Order of Blood and it's like, okay, we, which I didn't know anything about this, we're getting this whole historical, well, you know, when Hitler went to prison and all his generals and our officers that came out, he gave him this, this, you know, this medal, the Order of Blood. So that's where our patch came from. That's where the name of our club come from. So while they're designing the patch, this, this always makes me laugh. So it was an eagle, right? And it had two uh, thunderbolts on the back of it, an eagle, like the A B Falcon eagle. And then I'm like, well, why aren't we using, why don't we just use a swastika? They're like, well, that would just draw

• 1:44:51Speaker 04

  too much attention. But on the front of our cuts, we had a big swastika support.

• 1:44:57Speaker 04

  Could break it up, right? So these guys, so anyway, so we just start rolling with these guys. We came out and you know, people don't understand the underground. So our first coming out party with these guys, we were up in Ohio and it was a Hells Angels event. And this is where we're going to bring out, we're going to sell all our Nazi gear, you know, our swastikas, our club support stuff, right? Our thunderbolts. And uh, so we're there, the Hells Angels have their tent. And in fact, I think Sonny Barger was coming in to sign books. So there was a bunch of them there. And uh, and, and, and the caveat that, so in Ohio, up in northeast Ohio, there weren't supposed to be any new clubs that started,

• 1:45:40Speaker 04

  right? They're like, that's it. No new clubs. Well, couple of the A B were friends with the Hells Angels. They knew them. They didn't trust them. Nobody trusted each other. So I get invited to this meeting with uh, with the informant in, in AJ, and then there's two Hells Angels there. And we go to this Denny's and we're sitting there and you know, most clubs will kiss their ass just because they fear them. Right? Well, we're sitting there and they tell them, hey, we're starting a club. They go, what club? They go, an A B club. They go, well, you know, we're not supposed to, they go, we don't give a shit what you say. We're starting a club. And this is the first time, this is why it was so great to be in this.

• 1:46:25Speaker 04

  You didn't care what the club said because your gang was a prison gang.

• 1:46:29Speaker 05

  Right.

• 1:46:29Speaker 04

  And they knew it. They knew it. And I'll tell you a story that that drove that point home to the Hells Angels real quick. So they're like, okay, you know, just all right. They didn't balk. So we started the club and then we showed up at that event. You know, their Hells Angels are, they knew we were coming. But anyway, that ain't even, the best part is we're there about a half hour to an hour. Next thing you know, we got the Grand Wizard. We got a couple of Nighthawks. We got the Grand Dragon from the, from the Klan. They're coming up, welcome brothers. We're, you know, good to see you. You know, it's so good to see other people like us out here. And we're like, I'm telling you right now, if they'd have let us go about another six months in that investigation, we'd have had our sheets

• 1:47:14Speaker 04

  inside that. No doubt in my mind. No doubt. Cause you know, because people, you know, a lot of the old school, the, the clubs, you know, a lot of it is about white supremacy.

• 1:47:28Speaker 05

  Right.

• 1:47:29Speaker 04

  I mean, they've gotten away from that. Like the Hells Angels, you know, they used to wear a lot of, a lot of things were swastikas, thunderbolts. And then once Germany came in, they couldn't wear that anymore. They get fined. However, they were buying our stuff and not getting caught wearing it. That's like a lot of clubs, you know, they, they'll wear the symbol, you know, because it stands for supremacy, whatever. It was odd to see Hispanics wearing it, but okay. But anyway, so, you know, as time went on, we had a really good relationship with both Cleveland chapters. But as we grew as a club, we became, we started to get more powerful because people started to recognize we weren't subservient. We didn't answer.

• 1:48:11Speaker 04

  And that we truly were, you know, you guys, because all our records showed that we're, you know, that we were criminals for the most part. Now, we kept a couple of guys that were clean just for throw downs. And if you want to hear a funny story, I'll tell you this one. So you know how you think you're smarter than the average bear?

• 1:48:27Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:48:29Speaker 04

  So we had been preparing to do this case for like three, four months, getting, because, because at the, at the pinnacle of this case, we had 20 undercovers running, male and female. Okay.

• 1:48:39Speaker 04

  So we started out with five. So we had to, how we know each, we had to get all that down, right? So we had seized this Fleetwood Cadillac and it was an older one, but it was nice. So that was my car because I'm supposed to be the, you know, the guy, right? So we're getting ready to go up to our house and

• 1:49:01Speaker 04

  we had a big safe up there and everything where we would store stuff because guy would, we had guys flying in from all over, but I had just picked a bunch of guys up. Well, I picked uh, three of them up at Pittsburgh. So we're going to our house. We dropped a couple of bikes off that we had purchased to get some work done. Okay. So it's like October, it's going into November. And so it was getting late today and we're going up to Cleveland. Now it's like if we go to the house to drop off all our stuff because some guys had creds in their computers because we had to do our work. We were going to stash them to say it would, it would, if we went to the house and then had to go to the west side of Cleveland, it's like an extra two hours with the bikes. So it was getting late and we're like, okay, who's in favor of going to the house?

• 1:49:45Speaker 04

  Everybody's like, no, let's just go get the bikes and be done with it. And I had like $5,000 I had to pay to pick them up with the work that was done.

• 1:49:54Speaker 04

  So we break from our route and we're going down route 90. Now there's me, I had long hair and a big beard. Everybody else shaved like this, shaved head beard and we're in a Fleetwood Cadillac. And we're driving and we're going traffic. It's, you know, it's traffic. I think the speed limit was seven. We were going like 75, 76.

• 1:50:18Speaker 04

  And we pet, there's an interdiction team sitting off on the left that nobody told us that they hang out over there. That's just poor intelligence on our part. We pass this interdiction team and we all look at them and they look at us like we are hit better than shit. They, I mean, as soon as we pass them, boom, boom, boom, they come out, there's three of them. They pull up behind us, they pull me over, and of course now, we're, we're in roll, so now I gotta be the asshole. So the one officer walks up to the side and he hits on a window, he said, roll your window down. So I, I roll it down like an inch. I go, can I help you? He goes, he goes, well, do you know why I stopped you? I, I, it wasn't speeding. He goes, yeah, you were speeding.

• 1:51:01Speaker 04

  I go, I was keeping with the flow of traffic, dude. I go, that wasn't speeding. He goes, roll the window down. So I roll the window down. And as I'm rolling the window down, I go, and no, you cannot have consent to search the car. So he looks right at me like, okay, we're gonna play this game. Now, remember how, how I said we had a throw down guy? Yeah, yeah. So Wayne Lester, who was a newer agent, who, we, we had to bring guys in who, because we just had a shortage of guys, right? Who were, who, who, who had capability, but never been in this kind of situation. So Wayne didn't have criminal history. Now, prior to getting into the car, I said, okay, does everybody have their guns in the trunk and in their bag? So if we get stopped, we're not gonna have a problem.

• 1:51:43Speaker 04

  Yes. So as soon as we get pulled over, Jeff Graham goes, fuck, I got my gun. I go, all right, I go, take the magazine, throw it in the front, throw it, or in the glove box, throw the gun under your seat. Cause in Ohio, that's just a simple improper handling of a firearm, right? So the guy's going, I go, and you can't have consent to search. So they come over and they pull us out of the car. And so they put me and Wayne in a car and they put Jeff and Dan Osborn in the, in the other car. And Wayne's looking at me, goes, what's going on? I go, well, if somebody's going to jail for that gun, it's you, cause you don't have a criminal history. So the rest of us are, you know, two, three time felons. I go, so you're gonna have to take the hit. And Wayne's like, what?

• 1:52:25Speaker 04

  I go, yeah, if, if, if, if they don't give you a simple, you're gonna have to own the gun. If they ask whose gun that is, it's yours. So.

• 1:52:36Speaker 04

  They bring out the drug dog, right? Now, we had cleaned this car. There's nothing gonna hit on this car. So they walked the dog around the car once. Nothing. I go, good, dude. We're out of here. Nothing. They walked the dog around the car a second time. That officer put his hand on the window ledge, dog sat. Cause I have an alert. I go, son of a bitch, passive alert. He got alert my ass, right? So now they're, they're gonna get in the car. They get in the front seat within, you know, a minute. I got a gun. So now, now, mind you, this is the first day out on this investigation. We spent quite a good bit of money getting, I'm going, you can't, you can't believe it, right? So we're supposed to be better than this because Dan's worked a case. I worked a case. Jeff worked multiple cases. We should know better, right?

• 1:53:21Speaker 04

  So I sit there and I say, Wayne, I'm gonna have to out myself. He goes, what do you mean out yourself? I go, I'm gonna have to out myself to protect the case. He goes, what are you gonna do? I go, don't worry about it. So I start banging my head on the window of this, of this cruiser, right? So sergeant's like yelling me, shut up, shut up, stop it. So I'm about beat myself unconscious. Finally, officer goes, what the fuck do you want? I go, I need to talk to you. So he pulls me out. I go, can we go to the back of the car? So he pulls, he goes, what's going on? I go, all right, well, I'm gonna explain something to you. I go, might be a little bit sketchy for you to believe. I go, but I'm gonna lay something down to you. I go, I'm an ATF agent. I go, and these guys are my targets. I go, and right now you're fucking up my deal.

• 1:54:06Speaker 04

  And he's looking at me and I go, okay, if you want to verify who I am, I go, I got a bag in the back of that car. I go, this is the bag and inside it, there's a compartment that you gotta, you know, pull some shit apart and get into. I go, my creds are in there.

• 1:54:22Speaker 04

  He goes, he's looking at me. I go, just, I go, but you are the only one that could search that because if these other guys, it's gonna be a problem. So he goes in there and I could see him messing around. He pulls my creds out. He looks, he shuts them. Now, mind you, while we're on the side of the road, about three or four more cruisers show up. I'm watching our seats get launched out of our car because they're tearing it apart, right?

• 1:54:45Speaker 04

  So he goes, well, how do you want to handle this? Now at this point, the lieutenants that were on our task force, they both show up. And he goes, well, what do you want to do about the gun? I go, that little dude back there that's in a car with me, I go, just give him improper handling. He don't have a criminal history. I go, the other guys, just let him go for right now. And he's like real cool about it. He goes, okay. All right. So anyway, long story short, after three hours on the side of the road, our cars all, they're, they're like, okay, they're wrapping up. And then like, okay, we got to put our seats back in, we got to, okay. So we get back in the car. And after something traumatic like that, the, the speed limit was 70. I think I was going 40. Cause we're all looking at each other like,

• 1:55:28Speaker 04

  we're, we're supposed to be so much better than this. And just, this is day one. So I'm driving down the road.

• 1:55:38Speaker 04

  Car comes flying up behind me, lights me up. I'm going, you gotta be shit. I mean, I'm like, I might as well just, let's just quit right now. Pulls me over, it's the sergeant. And to his, they never said a word about me and the case went on. I mean, I give them that credit. They never said a word to anybody about me. But he comes up, he goes, you forgot this. And he hands me my $5,000 that I forgot that he even took off me when he searched me. I got, I became so tunnel visioned.

• 1:56:04Jack Murphy?

  Holy shit.

• 1:56:06Speaker 04

  Yeah. I'm like, God almighty. So we go, we pick up the bikes. Now it's dark. And it, and it's cold. So the other guys take off in the car and we put all our gear on and our cuts on. I know we've got our, you know, and we start rolling down the same road, right? We're on two bikes. Now our face are all messed up. We got helmets on. Dude, we passed the same interdiction unit. They're out right behind us.

• 1:56:32Speaker 04

  The sergeant, because he must not, he rolls up and he's looking at us and I'm on there, I'm on the, on the inside, just on it. I pulled my mask down and I'm like, as if to say, For real? Come on. And then all of a sudden they backed out and they went, I mean, you want to talk about a night of just self-reflection, you know, just like dudes, everything that could have went wrong, went wrong, you know, it did, which woke us up because that case was different than any other case I went because those guys scrutinized, they had security guys, they wanted to know everything about you. They were constantly looking at guys getting out of prison. If they made deals, you're allowed to talk to this one.

• 1:57:12Speaker 04

  Don't talk to that one, you know, so as we, we started off in, in, in, uh, actually our house was in Geneva on the lake. And then it was beautiful, overlooked the lake. It was a big house. We, you know, we all kind of lived there, came and went. And we kind of expanded into a couple of cities, but the chapters, the chapters started to grow, you know, we started to get more members. Um, as guys got out of prison, guys were bringing in people from prison. So it was, uh, you know, a lot of dope. Like, and you know, the one good thing about it is we, um, so we had this house, right? And it had a big flagpole. So it's like, there was no secret who we were, right?

• 1:57:53Speaker 04

  Bunch of Nazis. So we flew a Nazi flag. My boss rode by there one time just to check the house out. I get a call. He goes, you gotta take that flag down.

• 1:58:04Speaker 04

  I go, why? He goes, you gotta take the flag down. He goes, it's, it's a Nazi flag. I go, we're Nazis. That's what we are. He goes, no, he goes, it's too, he goes, it's too much. So we ended up flying a pirate flag instead. However, all those people up in that area, we had people, I'm not shitting you, people would just knock on our door. Because we'd be outside, everybody is tattooed, you know, Washington bike, people would just knock on our door, asking if we want to buy dope and guns. We had these two idiots that worked for the city, you know, those big steel manhole covers.

• 1:58:41Speaker 04

  It, it was like Jeremiah Johnson, they would drop stuff off at our house with the big, uh, swastikas or thunderbolts on them. Those, and then they would drop off these manhole covers, right? So one of the guys ends up asking us, hey, man, where are you getting these? They go, we're just pulling them off the street. He's like, so you leave the big holes on the street where you ride our motorcycles? You idiot, you know, but they would, I mean, we had, there was councilmen that would stop up and talk to us. You would think, you know, in today's age, you know, you talk about racism, people just don't know how much racism exists still today. It where people, you know, we used to sell our gear, people would buy our gear. Tenfold, we had guys that were buying off of some black guys.

• 1:59:25Speaker 04

  So we had a tent that these guys would give us on the main street of Geneva on Lake. I roll up with one of the other guys and I see two of our guys standing there who were buying dope off a black guy. He's wearing our AV support shirt.

• 1:59:39Speaker 04

  I, I, I walked up, I, they're laughing. I go, dude, you better get that off. I said, cause if David Snow shows up over here, he'll kill that motherfucker. I go, you guys, this isn't, I go, serious business, serious business. They're not gonna, they're not gonna laugh at that, right? So anyway, but we had people that were buying and wearing our stuff all over the place. I mean, we had clubs when they got in trouble, they would call us to help defend them or work things out for them. And this is over time, we got to be pretty good friends with a guy named, he, he's not, he's out of the club now because of our, I think our friendship. Willie Beard, who was in, who was in Hells Angels and he took to us. And he said, hey, you guys run your operations good. You do stuff the right way. He goes, you guys aren't any bullshit. You handle your business.

• 2:00:24Speaker 04

  And, and we did, there were times where things would come up where we would have to handle our business. You know, where guys would, would try, you know, test us and then it was on, you know? And, and, and then it was over quickly. Cause we, we did, we had a lot of big dudes in our club and it was, uh, you know, it would get contentious. Because, you know, we had the pagans, we would go to pagan territory. They're like, well, you guys are up in Northeast Ohio. How can you have no affiliation with the Hells Angels? We don't. Uh, in fact, one of the original council members for there in Brotherhood was a pagan. So we ended up getting real good with the pagans. We had some affiliation with the Outlaws and we also had affiliations with all the other clubs that were up and around in that area. So we were running, we ended up having guys

• 2:01:09Speaker 04

  in Akron, up in Geneva on the lake, and then over in Sharon, Pennsylvania. So we had three chapters by the time and this thing was ballooning up. You know, we had guys calling from, uh, from the penitentiary that were calling, asking us to join, you know, when we get out, you know. So, I mean, it was, it was, and they were, and the beauty of it was, they were all great violent targets. We had this one guy, there, there's some twist to this story that, so if you got, if you got the time for this. Yeah, yeah. JB, JB, who was a, a, a, a member of the Aryan Brotherhood, right? He went down for murder. Okay. He was actually, and we knew this, but he didn't know we knew this. He

• 2:01:50Speaker 04

  was actually an informant for Tim Miracle, who was the adult parole officer, right? So while this case is going on, he's informing, but guess who he's informing on? Only us. None of the other ABs, not David, because he was deathly afraid of David, right? Everybody was. We were deathly afraid of David. You know, look at David, he didn't look like much, but.

• 2:02:14Speaker 04

  Coo-coo. Anyway, so John Beeson's starting to get too powerful. He's starting to want to do too many things. It's gonna get us down a road we don't want to go. So it's like, so how do we get rid of him? Because we had to get rid of AJ too. And I'll tell you how we got rid of him. This was before JB, but so we, JB had showed some of the guys in the club that he had a gun, right? So based on that, they executed a search warrant and they sealed the warrant and they arrested him. Okay. So JB had a bad heart. So he goes, he goes, because he's going for parole revocation now, because he's out on parole, and now he's

• 2:02:58Speaker 04

  facing federal charges. Well, he gets charged in federal court and his attorney in open court says that he's an active informant, because ATF signed him up too. He's an active informant for ATF and the Adult Parole Authority informing on the Hells Angels and Aryan Brotherhood. Now, I get this information. It's like, woo hoo, we can get rid of him. So I called the US Attorney's Office. I go, are we allowed to put that out? They go, no. Cause if you guys put it out, something happens then we're liable. Right. I go, well, what if I direct some people to go get a copy of the transcript and they read it? They go, you can do that because it's public information. So I did. So I had Paulie and David

• 2:03:40Speaker 04

  Snow go get the, go get the transcript. So they called me on the way back from the courthouse in Cleveland and, and, and David straight out, he goes, that motherfucker's dead. He goes, he's a snitch. He's a rat. Now Paulie and him were real good friends, meaning JB. Paulie said, we don't know the whole story. He goes, fuck him. He goes, he's dead. Holy shit. And I'm like, yeah. Well, anyway, so needless to say, so JB gets locked up, right? And about two weeks later, he's dead. Not from anything we did, but because of he, his heart gave out. Oh, wow. However, though, so, so in the meantime, once it was public, I was able to call Willie

• 2:04:25Speaker 04

  Beard and said, hey, Willie, there's a problem with JB, blah, blah, blah. He goes, all right, well, let me know what you find out. So JB gets, JB dies in prison. Well, to our advantage, I call up Willie and I go, Willie, I said, we don't have to worry about JB anymore. He goes, huh? I go, he's gone. He goes, oh, gotta go. So now these sons of bitches think that we had him off, which gives us so much credibility. Right, right. Unbelievable. I mean, it's, it's awesome. Right? We had a lot of things go our way that way. We just kept mounting because at first when we were in this club, it was like, well, everybody had to be like a criminal that did five years. Then it was a violent crime. Then it was murder. This was self perpetuating within the other clubs, not us. We weren't putting this

• 2:05:06Speaker 04

  stuff out. So, and the way we got rid of AJ was AJ again. So in his infinite wisdom, the guy that was actually the informant for the Hells Angels, they decided to go down to a Hells Angels bar in East Cleveland and AJ does a burnout in their bar, which angers them, right? Yeah. So the next, as it should, and the next day, there's these drag races, right? Now, it's a heavy Hells Angels presence. We're going.

• 2:05:37Speaker 04

  So we had a bunch of guys, we, we probably had to tell 10 or 12 guys at that point go with us. I mean, everybody went. So in AJ drove his truck because at this point we got to do something because the Hells Angels want to kill him. They literally want to kill because they know AJ. So we pull into this event and there's Hells Angels posted all over the place, right? And so we roll in and so it's me, JB and, and David Snow. No, David Snow never took an officer position at all. It was, it was, it was me, JB and, and AJ at the time. So AJ was kind of out at this point. So David goes, he goes, hey, everywhere you see Hells

• 2:06:22Speaker 04

  Angel, you guys go post up. He goes, everybody got a gun? Yeah, go post up. So our guys were angled out and we're posted up next to their guys. So Johnny Merchant, who is just this big animal and face, they're standing over there. So I go over with JB and we're talking and JB and, and Merch is like, where's AJ? We're gonna kick his ass. We're gonna kick his ass. And now, I bet now all these guys, nobody's young, you know, everybody's over 40 years old, approaching 50, you know, and this stuff. So it's like children. Anyway, so JB goes, you're not touching anybody in our club. I go, if there's anybody going to be disciplined in them, it'll be us. What's the problem? So he told him what was going. He goes, all right. He goes, all right.

• 2:07:05Speaker 04

  He goes, we want AJ. We're gonna, he goes, and JB goes, just stand by. He goes, he goes, junkyard, come with me. So we go back and David's standing over there. Now, David, okay, so just a little background on David. David got convicted of six counts of attempted murder because he held his girlfriend and was playing Russian roulette before somebody escaped in an house called the police, right? You got 15 years. He came up for parole in eight. When he went before the parole board, he told him, fuck you. I'm not, I'm not telling you I'm sorry or anything. So they sent him to the Youngstown Max Security Prison where he orchestrated the Lucasville riots from there. While he was in prison, we got from, from the guys that we talked to, the, the, the

• 2:07:49Speaker 04

  security guys that work at the prisons, he stabbed the guy. He actually shot a guy in the head, but he didn't die. But they ran everything concurrent. When he got out of prison.

• 2:08:00Speaker 04

  Now, this is JB and I'm saying, he was living under his mother's trailer because he was in solitary 23 hours a day. Like you couldn't go through a drive through because he goes, I'm not talking to the box. I mean, and when he first came around, this dude, he spent most of his, you know, teenage years, uh, dry cleaning. So he would wear dockers and polos and the worst tattoos you ever seen in your life. He was balding thin, but just violent as hell. And, but you'd never know that if you just talked to him and met him, seemed like half ass normal guy. So, so we go back over and, uh, and we're talking to, uh,

• 2:08:45Speaker 04

  to, uh, David and David goes, he goes, all right, here's how it's gonna go. He goes, you go back and tell them motherfuckers, he goes, if they touch one of us, he goes, we will green light every hell's angel across the country.

• 2:09:01Speaker 04

  At that point,

• 2:09:04Speaker 04

  I've been in other clubs and I've been around other clubs. I've never felt that much power in my life. Yeah. That we're gonna go over there and tell them this. And it was, okay, I go JB, that's your call. So we walk over there and they're, and they know who David is. And, and JB said, I just got one message to pass to you. He goes, David said, if you touch one of our members, we're gonna green light all of your people across the country. They looked at us, you, you saw their faces, everything changed immediately because they knew he had that power. Right. You know, or he could get to those people who had that power. Right.

• 2:09:49Speaker 04

  And, uh, so things kind of changed, you know, the format changed. And then, you know, they were having an officers meeting, this is where we're kind of going to be seen by all the other clubs. So we had these things called death marches because we never knew how they were going to turn out. It's just, you had to go do it because that's what was required. So usually it's only a couple, three or three members that are allowed to go. Usually the officers that go to these things and then the Hells Angels lecture you and tell you how they're gonna extort you for all their events that you have to prepay for and everything, right? So, so I'm sitting there and face goes, hey, we're gonna have this thing down here. I go, hey, man, none of our guys have ever been any of this. I go, you mind if we come? Like, I bring more?

• 2:10:30Speaker 04

  He goes, yeah, bring whoever you want, which saved our ass. So we go down this long road and of course, our cover team's watching the drag races. They're not watching us. So we go down this long path and there's this tent, right? So all the other clubs are sitting there and here's probably like six or seven of us. And they're saying, hey, this is a new club, Order of Blood. And a couple of the clubs trip up and say, hey, we thought you said there wasn't gonna be any new clubs. They say, shut the fuck up. They're here. And then they kind of started to figure out what we were about, right? So this meeting breaks up. Now, Roy Bootser was the longest prospect in the history of, of, of the Hells Angels. I think he prospected

• 2:11:13Speaker 04

  for three years. That's a long time. So we're, so they asked us to stay back. There were two or three other Hells Angels in this, this, this prospect, Roy Bootser. So they asked us to hang back when we're talking. So I'm looking out of the corner of my eye and Roy's putting on his sap gloves. He's turning his sawed off shotgun towards us. And I'm like, so I bump a couple of guys. I go, are you guys seeing this bullshit? So it was like, we close ranks into the Hells Angels. Cause it's like, if he's gonna shoot one of us, he's gotta shoot them, right? And JB didn't see it. He goes, what's going on? I go, just, I go, I got time to explain it. Close it up. So they start talking about what needs to happen and how

• 2:11:55Speaker 04

  we have to send some guys down to the HA bar so that they can apologize, which David was vehemently against. But we're like, David, we gotta exist here. We'll take care of that business. Let them, you know, we're kind of bait, because the plan was, again, to kill all of them. So it's like, hey, let's just think they're in control. You know, we're kind of guiding David, let him think we're in control. So, and then let him go apologize. So, two guys went down there, apologized. So, they couldn't do anything because we had closed ranks around our guys. So, they just broke it up. So, as we're walking back up the hill, JB looks at me, goes, what the hell was that all about? I go, dude, they were getting ready to shoot us with that shotgun. He goes, what? I go, yeah. So, I told my guys, I go, we're gonna kill everybody here that's not wearing our patch,

• 2:12:40Speaker 04

  and we're dropping our shit and getting out of here.

• 2:12:43Speaker 04

  And he looked at me, goes, junkyard? He goes, I only got one problem with that. And I go, what is it? He goes, you need to fucking tell me that when you're gonna do shit like that. I'm like, okay, cool. Well, I'm telling you now. He goes, he goes, because they didn't care. It was like, you know, the patch was something that was just a novelty for them.

• 2:13:00Speaker 05

  Right.

• 2:13:00Speaker 04

  To be able to ride around and be a club.

• 2:13:02Speaker 05

  Right.

• 2:13:02Speaker 04

  But the brand, the AB brand is what kept them together.

• 2:13:05Speaker 05

  Right, right.

• 2:13:06Speaker 04

  It's what kept all of us together, because we were the only guys who were part of an AB thing that never really went through the whole process of becoming an AB inside the joint.

• 2:13:14Speaker 05

  Right.

• 2:13:14Speaker 04

  You know, which was unique in and of itself. I mean, they took pictures of us and sent them inside the joint to see if anybody knew us or anything like that. But, you know, we, we were, we were pretty much on equal standing with those guys. So, you know, go ahead.

• 2:13:29Speaker 05

  No, I'm just curious, because, you know, you're talking about a very interesting dynamic here, right? You're talking about the Hells Angels and the Pagans and these motorcycle gangs, who their guys sometimes get sent to prison, and when they do get sent to prison, I imagine generally have to rely on the Aryan Brotherhood, which isn't a motorcycle gang, it's a prison gang. That, you know, it's, it's, it's a major protective and, and a violent force inside a prison. So, now all of a sudden, the Aryan Brotherhood is, they're sort of outside the law when it comes to these motorcycle gangs, right? Like, they have a way more reach than a lot of these motorcycle gangs do.

• 2:14:13Speaker 04

  Well, so, you know, every time you go in a club, you learn their, you know, their background, their history, right? So, so of course, Darian Brotherhood is going to tell you, at least, like, the Darian Brotherhood in Ohio was brought from Arizona. That's where David brought it back from, right? So, and Arizona started from California. So, you're going to learn the lore of that. And so, we were talking to David about that because he did not like the Hells Angels. He hated them. And I'm like, David, what's the rub? He goes, well, he goes, it goes back to the riots in the 60s. He goes, when we were, he goes, you know, he goes, when we were riding with the blacks, he used another term, right? He goes, he goes, we went to the Hells Angels, you know, to see if they're with us.

• 2:14:54Speaker 04

  And they said, no, we're not, we're not white, we're Hells Angels. And to this day, that carries, like, they remember that. So, like, in state, in federal prison, they're okay. State prison, they keep them away. Now, most clubs don't allow you to become an Darian Brotherhood member and be in a club, right? Darian Brotherhood don't care if you, if you're in a club or not, you know what I mean? But the clubs don't want you because what happens is, is divided loyalty then, and who has the bigger stick? Now, you know, we got taught a lot about the Darian Brotherhood, you know? I mean, we were buying off of guys, we bought off of black, we bought off of the Mexican Mafia, we bought anybody because the color was green, right?

• 2:15:38Speaker 04

  If it was green and we could make money? So, you know, when you look at the hierarchy of white supremacists, right? You have the true believers. But the Darian Brotherhood is, is more, it's a prison gang. You know, when they're out, they're clickish, they do stuff, but it's all about pushing money back into the prison to help those guys. It's not like, you know, NS, NSM and, you know, war, all these other, you know, white nationalists, it's not about that. It's, they're all based on an ideology, based on religion. The Aryan Brotherhood is not based on like Christian religion. It's not based on that at all. So it's based on white is right. It's our group of guys. We do, we do, we hold the

• 2:16:21Speaker 04

  power, right? So when David made that statement to them, it kind of changed everything from the like these guys are like, hey, these guys are good, you know? And then, and then the Cleveland chapter, we started to get rubs with because they saw a power shift and dynamic where a lot of the other puppet clubs, the smaller support clubs were looking to us and we were real good about that. We'd go to their events. We pony up a bunch of money. We're buying loyalty. I'll tell you a quick story. So they used to have these officer meetings, right? And so there had been some friction with us and a couple of clubs, especially with the Hells Angels. And

• 2:17:03Speaker 04

  it was coming to a head. So we're riding to this Earth Dogs was the name of this club. They got a real small clubhouse, but we're going to go over to the Born Free. Now, they were a single chapter club, but they had a lot of members, like 40 members. And we had become pretty tight with this guy. So we were going to go over to their clubhouse first and then ride over together. Well, while we're riding over there, there was four of us. There was, yeah, there was four of us. Well, there's a pack coming towards us. I'm like, who the fuck is that? Well, it was the Hells Angels. They had like eight members and like two or three prospects. I'm like, something's fucked up. That ain't right. They never bring that many people to these days. So we get over to the, to the Born Free clubhouse. We walk in and Too Tall's the president, a nice guy. And we had become friends with some of their, real

• 2:17:46Speaker 04

  good friends with some of their guys. And Too Tall goes, somebody's fixing to get fucked up. Or like us? He goes, he goes, that's the way it looks. He goes, dude, he goes, I don't know. He goes, the Hells Angels got rubbed with you guys. And I go over what? He goes, well, the swordsman were saying you guys were in their territory selling dope. I go, we don't even go over there. What the fuck are they talking about? That is a puppet club for them, you know, for the Angels. So we're getting ready to leave, but this is how much loyalty these guys had for us. They go, look, if you want, they go, we'll invite the Hells Angels back to our clubhouse. And he goes, we'll hide in the closets with shotguns and shit. And when they come in, we'll kill them all. We're like, all right, fuck it. Sounds like a good plan because at this point it's self preservation.

• 2:18:31Speaker 04

  If that's what it comes back to, that's what it comes down to. I don't give a shit. You know what I mean? I want to go home and see my family.

• 2:18:37Speaker 05

  Right.

• 2:18:37Speaker 04

  So, so we go over to this herd dog clubhouse and, you know, we go in and they're, you know, reading the riot act and they're telling they want everybody's social security numbers and this and that. So they could start checking everybody, but they really wanted to check us and myself and grandma are in there and we're saying out loud because we're just defiant. You go, we're not giving you our shit. We're not giving you anything. And they're, and like the other clubs are like, it's like being in third grade where you bark at the teacher and the other clubs are like looking around going, holy shit. And then they're like, and there's not to be any, you know, shit go down while we're here. So if you got a problem with another club, you handle it. So of course we did the exact opposite.

• 2:19:19Speaker 04

  So when the meeting broke up, the president and his swordsman walked out towards the, was walking towards the, uh, the bonfire. So we scooped them up and we're like, and we're getting in his ass about what he's saying. And of course Goose, who's no longer in the club, he's a big dude and a couple of other guys, they're watching us. But we're blatant defiance of them. And he comes walking over, he will not talk to us and he starts, didn't I tell you to the other guy in the swordsman? Didn't I tell you, you guys aren't supposed to handle any business? And he's looking at him going like, but they scooped me up, right? Now, in the meantime, we didn't know how shit was going to go. So Freddie and I think it was Oz, those guys had gotten into a position of a crossfire.

• 2:20:01Speaker 04

  Cause if it broke again, it was, it was four against whoever wanted to draw their guns, right? So anyway, they bitch at them. We get on our motorcycles and we leave. Now Ozball and Grabbin were going to meet some of the pagans in Youngstown because they had a deal. So Freddie and I go to this truck stop and we're going to grab something to eat. And you know, you try not to take stuff personal, but now I got, I, I, I took this personal. So. I called up Willie Beer and I said, Willie, I go, what the fuck is Goose's problem? He goes, what do you mean? I go, we're just at this meeting. He goes, what did he do?

• 2:20:45Speaker 04

  I go, he's telling us he wants this, he wants that. He goes, well, you know, Goose can kind of get like a Gestapo. I go, stop right there. I go, do you know who the original Gestapo was? Because the fucking Nazis, us, we're the Gestapo. We don't get told what to do. I go, and then so Freddie's eating and I'm watching him because he's like, where are you going with this? I said, I'm gonna tell you something, Willie. I said, you motherfuckers want to go? We'll go with you anytime you want. I go, you just tell us where and when. And he's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. He goes, we're not looking to fight a two-front war. Because this is when they were battling and they basically got pushed out of Philadelphia. When the pagans busted them out of Philadelphia. He goes, we're not looking to fight a two, a two, you know, a two-front war with you guys.

• 2:21:29Speaker 04

  I go, I go, there's not gonna be a fight. I go, you guys just won't see it coming, Willie. And he's like, god damn it. He, you know, and after that, after that, I'm telling you, we tried to poke that bear. Every chance we could get with the Hells Angels and they would, they would get so livid. But they would never jump. They would never jump at us, ever. And it's just because, not that we were a bunch of tough guys, but what would ensue if it happened.

• 2:21:57Speaker 05

  Right.

• 2:21:57Speaker 04

  What they knew would happen.

• 2:21:58Speaker 05

  Right.

• 2:21:59Speaker 04

  Or what they believed what would happen. So, you know, so that was, that was, I mean, you talk about, it was one of those times in a club where it's like, man, this is where, you know, you got big dogs, but all the other guys are looking at you going, this, this could be a problem because this isn't, these guys are in a club, they don't have a criminal record or they're afraid to go back to prison because that's their home.

• 2:22:22Speaker 05

  Right.

• 2:22:22Speaker 04

  You know, so it was kind of unique in that way.

• 2:22:25Jack Murphy?

  So, Frank, what, what, what was the tripping point for this, this investigation that led to, you know, you guys closing the net on it?

• 2:22:33Speaker 04

  I had a thumbsucker as an ASAC. I mean, he was scared, like denied even having meetings at the USA's office with the SAC. I don't remember being there. It was a fucking Saturday morning. Who comes in on a Saturday morning to have a meeting about what we're gonna do? He wanted to shut that case down from the minute because he had no idea, you know, thank God for guys like Steve Martin, who were deputy assistant directors at the time, that were fighting our battles at the headquarters level, keeping our cases alive. Yeah. Now, Chris had asked you who was my SAC. He was there, but the ASAC wasn't passing any information up and down. So,

• 2:23:13Speaker 04

  you know, so what did it happen? The biggest thing that happened that shut it down was because like I said, we were getting into some scenarios with, you know, with the, I could tell you countless stories about shit that happened with the pagans. It almost became a big problem. But the, the big tipping point was, I get a call from Willie Beard at like 10:00 in the morning. This guy never was up at that time. He was a nocturnal animal. You know what I mean? He goes, I gotta meet you. I go, okay. I go, when? He goes, as soon as you can. I go, wait, I go, he goes, when can you meet me? I go, give me an hour. And he go, and then he goes, he goes, and I have my car swept. I go, okay.

• 2:23:55Speaker 04

  So I know there's a problem. So I go, where we're gonna meet? He goes, meet me up at the McDonald's. I go, okay. I go, we going anywhere? He goes, no. I'm like, so I had two guys that were at the house with me. I said, look, I gotta go meet Willie. I have no idea what this is about. I go, but I need you to go up there and just cover me because I don't know what's going on. Willie and I had a pretty damn good relationship. So I pull into McDonald's. He's in there. He goes, come on, let's get my car. So I go sit in his car. And I'm waiting for him to put it in drive because I ain't going anywhere. I'm gonna stop that. And he pulls out this envelope and he hands it to me.

• 2:24:34Speaker 04

  And I'm looking at it and it's addressed to the Hells Angels, you know, like he's chapter. He goes, open it up and tell me what you think.

• 2:24:43Speaker 04

  So I open up, I pull out this letter.

• 2:24:47Speaker 04

  And I'm looking at, and what it is, is a picture of Jeff Grabman, when he was a warlock, and Derek Kozlowski, when he was a warlock. They identified Jeff correctly, and they, and they identified Derek Kozlowski as another agent who we called Bailey, right? But Jeff had slimmed down, he really didn't look as much like that, and he's, I'm looking at it, of course, my ass is puckered, and I'm kind of just looking, he goes, do you know those guys? I go, no. He goes, because they identify, I go, these guys ain't in my club. He goes, they're not? I go, no, I don't know who the fuck these guys are, Willie. I go, what's going on here? He goes, well, we got mailed this, and Cleveland got

• 2:25:27Speaker 04

  mailed this letter, identifying you guys. He goes, we've been having meetings, he goes, we don't believe those are your guys either. He goes, however, somebody might be trying to get in your club and infiltrate you guys, you need to be careful. I'm like, holy shit. Okay, so I'm like, okay, so I grabbed the letter, I go back to the house, and that's another one of these son of a bitch. So I call, well, we were gonna try to get around it, but the two state police guys that we had that were working with us from Pennsylvania, then they went right to their captain, and it was like, we, because we know they're gonna talk to our people, and there's no coming back for that. We thought we could salvage it, really, because they weren't actually accusing us of anything,

• 2:26:12Speaker 04

  right? And we weren't really doing business with them, because at this point, we had got really tight with the pagans, and we went to a wedding. So all this was happening at the same time. So we went to a pagan wedding, a wedding for one of the pagan members. And we didn't wear our colors or anything like that, and they had been talking to us, because they were talking about us flipping patches and becoming pagans, the Hells Angels wanted us to become a prospect club for them up in Erie. We're like, no, no, no, no, no, because we like our own thing. So, we go to this wedding. And about an hour into the wedding, Bucky, who was the guy to get married, he goes, hey, there's some guys in the back want to see you guys.

• 2:26:52Speaker 04

  Like, okay, but only your officers can come. So it was me, Dan and Jeff. We go back there. There's 10 pagans sitting back there, three of which are mother club members, which are there. That's their pinnacle. There's 13 of them that run the entire club. And then there's the rest of them that are there and we're sitting there going, all right. And they're like, okay, who are you guys? They go, we know you're in Brotherhood, but what do you want? What do you want with us? And I'm like, we want to do business with you guys. And, and then Poki, who's dead now, who was a pagan, this guy, he, he was a Puerto Rican who had a swastika on his arm, right? And so we were doing drug deals with him. It's like, and, and one of the guys said, Poki,

• 2:27:36Speaker 04

  why do you have a swastika on your arm? You're Puerto Rican. He goes, that's so, that's so my, my daughters don't date any of those black guys. I go, that's a fucked up philosophy, dude. I mean, you know, anyway, but he's in there and he starts chirping. He goes, those guys got Ohio and Pennsylvania tabs. The mother club members said, shut up, just shut up. We, we don't care about that. Because they thought of us as, as a cash cow, how we could get, you know, how we can start making some money. So we talked to them guys for about 30, 40 minutes. And at the end, this is what he said. He said, we're going to take your pictures. We're going to pass them around, see if anybody knows you. And then we want to know who's in your club. Well, we are, we had so many informants that were AB guys that were either in the prison or out.

• 2:28:21Speaker 04

  We could have given them a list of 50 guys because they didn't know how many we had. Right. They really didn't. And truly violent guys that would have been like, holy shit. But because the outing with that picture.

• 2:28:37Speaker 04

  That that was my SAC was driving it downhill, driving it downhill. We, this is the point in the investigation we wanted to get because now we'd have free rein and roll through pagan territory and deal with whoever we wanted with their blessing, you know, with their blessing. And then my SAC comes out of nowhere. It says, you guys got to end it. You got two weeks to get out. They're like, fuck it, two weeks. So we had to contrive this big plan that I had a brain aneurysm and died while I was down in Florida seeing my baby's mama. And of course, those guys are all, a lot of guys want to go to Florida for a few goes now they cremated them already. Well, then, of course, we had a running affidavit and everything. So what we ended up doing is, you know, we ended up, you know, taking everybody down. I think we got like maybe 60, 80 people.

• 2:29:22Speaker 04

  We had, we had FFLs that were selling guns to us off like we'd have, we'd bring females in there and they would put their information and we pay them and they buy the guns for us. We had a bunch of unique things in there. But, but the thing is, is we did, we had, we had 20 undercovers running at one time. We had four females in that, that, you know, were either our girlfriends or running mules. We had guys that were living in three different areas. I mean, it was expansive. I mean, it, it could have went way much for ATF was getting fearful that it was growing too big beyond their control. Yeah. Which it wasn't a problem. I mean, you know, all they had to do was bring in some more people to facilitate it because we were reaching out and

• 2:30:01Speaker 04

  touching everybody, you know, you know, David Snow, this guy, for all his quirkiness, he got it that his own people were messed up, you know. So David, he wanted to sleep over the house one night and he would, you know, guys would stay over our house every night again. So I go, David, we don't got a bed. I go, but the couch goes, I don't need a bed. He goes, you got a sheet? We go, yeah, you got a sheet. So he makes this prison bed on the floor and we give him a pillow. I gotta get up in the middle of the night, go to bathroom. I'm taking a piss. It's like four o'clock in the morning and I opened the door and it was like, because we always used to joke that he's going to kill us all in the middle of our sleep. And I opened the door and he is

• 2:30:46Speaker 04

  right there. I bought shit my pants. I go, David, can I help you? He goes, I gotta take a shower. I go, David is four. He goes, I just need to take a shower. He goes, you have a towel. The only thing that was hanging on the towel bar was a washcloth. I said, Dave, this is all I got. He goes, that'll do, brother. That'll do.

• 2:31:06Speaker 04

  I didn't sleep the rest of the night.

• 2:31:07Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 2:31:08Speaker 04

  But then David and I got a good understanding. We, you know, he eventually wanted to come to our chapter. Like David, what he, he had sense. We had an issue with one of the guys could come up with this concocted story. It didn't sit well with them. Right? So we had a meeting in the house. So they brought up their five guys and it was like six or seven of us sitting in the house. Now it's fall, but it's hot. They all show up. They're all wearing jackets, hands in pockets and our guys all got guns on, right? Comes in, it's contentious. And Paulie, who's the security officer, starts going off like, like, well, JB comes in, anybody who's got guns, we gotta put them on the table over there. We gotta put them on the table. And so we're like, we don't have any guns, which

• 2:31:52Speaker 04

  everybody knew we had guns, right? So Paulie, now I didn't tell you this, but when I was doing the brothers case up in Akron, Paulie hung around the brothers in Akron. I knew him. I knew he, he never, he never recognized me. So he, he was the security, this is a guy, he was constantly on the internet scouring for stuff. So he comes in and he starts, listen, I was in Akron. He goes, there was these two ATF guys. They come in and they took down all these clubs. And I'm sitting there and everybody knew, and you could see everybody kind of edging up, kind of moving their hands towards their guns, our guys, because they're sitting there. And he goes, and he goes, he turns around to me, he goes, and that's, and he points at me and I'm like,

• 2:32:33Speaker 04

  here we fucking go. We're gonna have a slaughter right in his house. And he goes, and that's why. And at that point, I lost my mind. I jumped up. I said, Paulie, sit the fuck down. I go, you are fucking conspiracy theorist, you asshole, blah, blah, blah. And I start railing on it, right? And we ended that. And then, so I'm legitimately pissed. I go, we could all just fucking, I, I, you know, so I go and I grab this old chair and I'm sitting out on the pet, on the driveway, looking out over the lake. And David comes out. He goes, junkyard, you mind if I sit down with you? I go, no, come on, David. So he pulls the chair up, he goes, junkyard?

• 2:33:11Speaker 04

  He goes, I like how you guys do your business. He goes, I wanna, now at this point, we'd already bought a gun and two off David. He goes, he goes, I think I'm, I'm, I'm gonna transfer to your chapter. He goes, I like how you guys, he goes, I'm dealing with a bunch of idiots over here and we're, and I'm just sitting there. I go, David, I go, I'm so pissed right now. I go, you guys come up here with guns. Like, what are you gonna kill us over something stupid? He goes, no, that was all JB trying to be. I go, that, I go, dude, that ain't funny. He goes, I'm in and all this right now. He goes, I'm, I'm done with this bullshit. He goes, he goes, we are gonna be the power in this chapter. You see, all this was kinda going along and, and I mean, we had reached, you know, we had another guy.

• 2:33:51Speaker 04

  His name was Wild Bill Millsaps, right? Well, this was after JB got outed and we were gonna bring some other guys in. This guy had been in jail for armed robbery a couple of times, right? So he gets out and they're gonna bring him in. So we're at the strip club.

• 2:34:06Speaker 04

  And we're just talking about expanding and I just threw it out there. I said,

• 2:34:11Speaker 04

  Wild Bill, you wouldn't happen to have any guns for sale, would you? He goes, fuck yeah, I got guns. I go, well, can we get them? He goes, when you wanna get them? I go, tonight. So I had to send one of the guys back to the office, which was about 40 minutes away to raid the vault to get every penny we had. So we go, so I'm riding his truck and he's drunk and he's searching all over for his revolver that he can't find while we're driving and the other guys are following us. So we pull up to this pretty nice house and I'm like, there is no way this dude lives here. So we get out. We go into this house and his dad, older guy, sitting in a chair watching TV. He goes, he goes, hey, Bill. He goes, hey, Dad. He goes, your mom's gonna be home in about a half hour. He goes, you need to get the hell out of here.

• 2:34:57Speaker 04

  Cause he knows. So we go upstairs into this bedroom and he's got guns everywhere, right? He goes, well, how many you want? I go, I'll take them all. I go, give me a good deal. I go, you got something I can carry them out in? So he gives me this green like army duffel bag. And I got rifles and pistols and shotguns and whatever revolvers in there, probably about 10, 15 guns. We hear the door open to the house. It's, it's his mom, June Cleaver. She comes in, she goes, hi, honey. He goes, hi, honey. She goes, Bill's here. She goes up the steps, hey, Bill. He goes, I'll be, Bill goes, I'll be down in a minute, mom. Now. Again.

• 2:35:38Speaker 06

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• 2:36:35Jack Murphy?

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• 2:37:04Speaker 04

  We're, we're pretty, we're not young, but we're old enough. I felt like I was five or 10 years old because here we are, we got our nuts and cuts on, I got this big bag of guns. We're walking down the steps and his mom goes, hi, boys. And we don't even, hi, Mrs. Wild Bill. That's all we could call. Yeah, yeah. She goes, would you guys like something to eat? I have some cookies and we're going, what the hell? Yeah. None of us, it was, it was just the funniest shit I'd ever seen in my life. You know, as far as there were a lot of stupid things that happened in these cases, but you know, some of those things you could just, you know, these guys are just out there and he was one of those guys. We're going to open a chapter.

• 2:37:46Speaker 04

  Akron, he goes, we're gonna kill every one of these. I mean, there was always kill, kill, kill. You know, we had to temper that kind of stuff.

• 2:37:52Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 2:37:52Speaker 04

  Because obviously that'd be a problem.

• 2:37:55Jack Murphy?

  Do, uh, do we have any questions for Frank?

• 2:37:57Speaker 05

  Yeah, I'll get, I wanna ask you, uh, when we get to these questions, I wanna ask you a question. Cause you mentioned earlier, like the cop motorcycle clubs and the military motorcycle clubs. And generally, those clubs are made up of veterans or cops who like to ride. And generally, like the one percenters don't tend to fuck with them because they're just doing their thing. They're not gonna, they're not impeding on their territory in terms of like drugs and stuff. But, right, but you do have those people in those clubs who for whatever reason, idealize the one percenters and wanna get closer. Like, how, how would you manage, or did you have to manage that when members of these cop clubs

• 2:38:40Speaker 05

  or, or military clubs would wanna get closer to the one percenters?

• 2:38:45Speaker 04

  Well, a lot of times, especially with the cop clubs, the one percenter clubs didn't want anything to do with them.

• 2:38:50Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 2:38:50Speaker 04

  You know, they would try to force themselves in. And then every time there was an altercation or something would happen, these cop clubs would pull out, I'm a cop, now, now I'm a cop.

• 2:38:59Speaker 05

  Right.

• 2:39:00Speaker 04

  I wanna be, and then they would fall back on the badge, right?

• 2:39:02Speaker 05

  Right.

• 2:39:03Speaker 04

  Um, you know, so, so that was, so that was all, and they're not all bad. But the ones that choose to wanna affiliate and go to the one percenter houses and do all that, there's no reason for you to do that. We still don't understand why as cops you even have to have a, a patch. Your badge is your patch. You shouldn't have to put it, you know, but that's what they choose to do. But, you know, this has happened in court where, you know, cop clubs, you know, they get in and they emulate the one percenter clubs, three-piece patch, they have meetings, mandatory runs. And, you know, this has happened where they put these people on, to testify in court, go, what's the difference between what you do and what the one percenter clubs do? And there really is no difference. And the same thing when you get to the military clubs, they're, again, they're not all bad, but you know what?

• 2:39:48Speaker 04

  The special forces is a big recruiting ground, uh, are people who have, who have special. Now, I will tell you, like Jeremy Sheets in ATF headquarters. Mike Will, those two guys were probably the two biggest supporters of the motorcycle cases throughout, you know, the time we've been doing them. But now they publish law enforcement, military, first responders in outlaw motorcycle gangs. Those guys are constantly going out briefing commands, special mission units as well.

• 2:40:16Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 2:40:16Speaker 04

  And they're pulling people's clearances because of their affiliation.

• 2:40:20Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 2:40:20Speaker 04

  So, you know, these guys, a lot of these guys got high level access. A lot of these guys are doing a lot of training and they're recruiting these dudes.

• 2:40:29Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 2:40:29Speaker 04

  Into these clubs, you know, and then they're committing violence that are getting jacked up after a great year or a great service to the United States, you know, being in the military, they're getting hooked up with these, these guys and they're screwing themselves up.

• 2:40:42Speaker 05

  Yeah. Yeah. It's fascinating. Um, uh, McIntyre, thank you very much for the very generous donation. Can you please explain why ATF isn't allowed by law to have a database to track guns and has to resort to a paper database?

• 2:40:57Speaker 04

  Okay. So everybody thinks that ATF has this national database on guns. What ATF has is, so if it's an NFA weapon, you know, like a Title II type of weapon, machine gun, silencer, short barrel shotgun, short barrel rifle, those obviously you have to pay a tax stamp and those are registered, right? Specialty weapon. ATF, the only database ATF keeps and maintains is a multiple sales database. Okay. So what that means is if you buy two guns, two or more guns at one time, not long guns, but handguns, okay? That gets reported. Now, they changed it on the south, southwest border to include long guns because all the stuff that was going across, fast and furious and all that BS, right?

• 2:41:41Speaker 04

  But the database is basically multiple sales. So what that is, is for straw purchases. So you've got people who are going out and they're buying guns for somebody else, right? They get reported. We go back and we say, okay, and people say, well, you don't have to tell them if you have the guns. No, you don't have to tell them, but most lawful people, if I come knock on your door and go, why did you buy, you know, uh, four garbage guns? Name one. Haskell's. Pick up some garbage gun. It's like a ninety-nine, a hundred dollar gun. Why did you buy five of them? Can you explain to me why? And then normally they'll come up with the, well, they were either stolen, something happened to them. I don't know what happened to them and they're turning up on other parts of the state or their gun crimes.

• 2:42:23Speaker 04

  So, and what else they're used for is like investigative leads. If you buy, you have people go out and buy multiple guns at multiple stores over the course of a day, a week, a month, right? And then they're trafficked outward, you know, to other places. So, and what else it's for, we, we use it for is like if we're doing search warrants and, or if you're going to a house, if I go into the database and I see, well, this house has, you know, if it's a search warrant, well, they, you know, this house has been the, on the, on the, like five times, there have been multiple sales reported to your house. What's going on there? Right? So there's no central database like that tracks every gun you own.

• 2:43:06Speaker 04

  The eight, the FFLs only have one obligation when it comes to multiple sales. And that's to report that when you buy two or more handguns at one time. Okay? So that, that's what that's about. So it's, you know, that's a big misnomer that, that everybody, yeah, I, I'll tell you something else about these FFLs. I, I, cause I used to go out to our, our firearms technology branch in Martinburg all the time. You know, everybody thinks it's ATF that's jacking them, that's jacking them. Well, let me tell you something. They, they were selling those shotguns on those AR and AK platforms, you know, with the, with the magazines. I saw it for like two hundred dollars one time. And then like two weeks later, I was at a gun show in Virginia in, in, over in Norfolk area. And they were up to like five hundred.

• 2:43:50Speaker 04

  And I'm, I just, yeah, I didn't tell the guy who I was. I'm just, I go, why do these guns so expensive now? He goes, oh, ATF's getting ready to ban them. ATF's getting ready to ban them.

• 2:44:00Speaker 04

  I go, in here now. So I called John Spencer, who's in charge of our firearms technology branch, the guys who make these decisions. And I go, John, are these guys guns getting? He goes, no. He goes, all the FFLs are putting that out because they're driving a cost up. So everybody thinks that it's ATF screwing with them. It, it's not. A lot of these FFLs are, they, they self, you know.

• 2:44:23Speaker 04

  Propose these, these, these hikes and all this and these shortages so they can, and not all, again, there's a lot of good quality FFLs out there, but if there's money to be made at the behest of the people thinking something's going to go offline, then they'll do it.

• 2:44:36Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah. Yeah, we were talking, you were talking about the whole bumps, I think it was the bump stocks, right? Like, because we were talking about like-

• 2:44:43Speaker 04

  Well, bump stock, those braces.

• 2:44:44Speaker 05

  Yeah, the braces, the braces, not bump stocks, but braces, but-

• 2:44:48Speaker 04

  Well, let me, well, let me tell you something about ATF. ATF, you know, hey, I love that agency. It, it, you know, it gave me a career, gave me a life, you know, gave me, afforded me a lot of opportunity. However, ATF is a political football because between that, and it's not really the, the alcohol, the tobacco, but with the firearms, the arson, the explosives, abortion clinic, all that stuff falls under the purview of ATF, right? So for years, the NRA was battling, and it still battles with ATF. When I came on in 1989, ATF had 2,500 agents, DEA had 2,500 agents. Today DEA has over 5,000 agents, ATF still has 2,500 agents. They don't want ATF to

• 2:45:32Speaker 04

  get any bigger. And when you talk about gun violence, like ATF's going to go in and solve these problems in Chicago, Memphis, they can't. They don't have enough people. All they can go in and tell you, hey, look, here's how we can help you, but those are state and local problems where they have to have the manpower to address it. ATF can't go in there. They, they don't have, ATF should have 5,000 agents if they want to be effective. They just, Congress will not, NRA's big money, Congress will just not get off the money to expand ATF. And then the other thing about ATF is, you know, when we were under Treasury, it was rock and roll because we, we could, we could do what we wanted under the purview of Treasury and they backed us. Once

• 2:46:16Speaker 04

  we went under DOJ, we became the redheaded stepchild to FBI and DEA, right? We were third in line. So, and we've been run by US attorneys, which that doesn't mean, it doesn't mean anything bad, but they're attorneys. Attorneys are risk averse. They look at liability. They're not run by law enforcement official. Okay. Um, Dettelbach, I know him from clearly, he's a great guy. But the thing is, is-

• 2:46:45Speaker 04

  ATF is caught in this web of not being allowed to expand and do what actually needs to be done. They do what Congress tells them because they don't have enough to push back. If you told the FBI, hey, we're going to electric cars and you guys got to get on board, the ATF or FBI would tell them kiss their ass. ATF, we would park all our, all our, our gas cars and we'd be riding electric cars because they don't want to get sideways with Congress because they're always fearful that the budget's going to get cut or something's going to get happen. There's a lot of good leadership, but there's also a lot of people that just don't want to stand up and take the fight. And that's how it was throughout a lot of these undercover operations throughout. You had a few guys that came up through

• 2:47:24Speaker 04

  the ranks like Steve Martin, Carlos Canino, Charlie Smith, you know, those guys made it up there. Those guys knew what it was like to be on the ground and go up. Then you got a bunch of guys that just promoted up through that not on my watch. I don't want any black marks by my name because I got to get to the next level. And when you lose the confidence that you, right now, you talk to all the guys that are out in the field, there's no safety net. There's no safety net. And that's, and that's how they're operating. It used to be a very proactive agency. Now it's becoming a more reactive agency, but so has most of law enforcement.

• 2:47:59Speaker 05

  Yeah. McIntyre, thank you again for another very generous donation. How much of Hunter Thompson's book do you feel is accurate? The Hell's Angels book?

• 2:48:10Speaker 04

  Whose book?

• 2:48:11Speaker 05

  Hunter S. Thompson.

• 2:48:13Speaker 04

  I don't know if I read that book.

• 2:48:16Speaker 05

  Okay, God's a journalist. Yeah. McIntyre, thank you very much. What do you know about the Booze Fighters Outlaw Club? They seem to draw a lot of active military vets into their group. They used to have a clubhouse in Okinawa, Japan.

• 2:48:30Speaker 04

  You know, the Booze Fighters are, you know, they're, I think they're the oldest club, but they, they go by their alphabet. And, you know, you never really saw those guys get too criminal. I mean, most of them are, you know, they got a lot of cops, they got a lot of veterans. You know, it's more of a social riding club, I would say. It's not, I, I wouldn't, you know, to classify them as an outlaw motorcycle gang, only maybe because they wear a three-piece badge and they subscribe to the, but they're not, they're not in it like the rest of them are. I mean, they will associate and affiliate, but not to the degree that some of the other clubs do.

• 2:49:09Speaker 05

  Louis Fassas, thank you very much for just a sticker. Thank you. And then a couple of questions on Patreon. Oh, did your knowledge of tobacco from the ATF assist you in starting your cigar company and how?

• 2:49:24Speaker 04

  Well, no, my cigar company, it kind of started because I like to smoke cigars. So, you know, in, in working in the government and still working in, you know, contracting out, it was like, sometimes you just want to get away from all that, do something different. I started smoking, smoking cigars years ago. No, my ATF has nothing to do with my business. Thank Lord. And, you know, it's all state regulated and I don't have to deal with them people in any way, shape or form. Cause, you know, if I was doing cigarettes, it might be a little something different, but not with cigars. Yeah.

• 2:49:58Speaker 05

  What, what is your cigar company? Let people know where they can find it.

• 2:50:02Speaker 04

  Um, it's Black River Tobacco Company. You could find us online at wwwblackrivertobacco.com. We don't sell cigars online yet. We have a bunch of, you know, gear that we sell. If you're interested in buying cigars, you can call us and we'll ship them to you. I just have to send you what our inventory is because I'm telling you, our country, man, they, they don't want the banks, don't want to take tobacco money. They don't want to have anything to do with cigars and cigarettes anymore. It's tough to find a, you know, a bank that'll take the money.

• 2:50:35Speaker 05

  Sounds like, sounds like Marxism to me.

• 2:50:38Speaker 04

  Yes, it's terrible. It is. I'm telling you, you can't even, you can't even have a vice anymore.

• 2:50:42Speaker 05

  It's ridiculous.

• 2:50:47Speaker 05

  How does an undercover agent deal with initiation challenges for gangs when it comes to illegal activity?

• 2:50:56Speaker 04

  You know, a lot, the, the most illegal activity that they're going to have you do, like I said, the, the one where we did the home invasion was an anomaly. Most of it has to do with fighting, you know, or mud check, you know, it's a, you know, like I said, the drugs. You know, we've, we've learned how to subvert that and, and get around that. But most of it, I mean, they're not going to say, here's a gun, go in there and rob somebody, you know, go in there and rob a store. A lot of it is based on. You know who your sponsor is, what they feel of you, because you'll see some prospects will be treated like dirt. And then on the other side, you'll see some prospects that they feel might bring something to the club. Like the old school peeing on the colors and pooping on the colors and pouring, no.

• 2:51:41Speaker 04

  Clubs respect their colors now, you know, they don't do that. The only club that's like that, really, the only 1% of club that's truly like that is still the Pagans. They still run like they're in the 70s, I'll give them that. But everybody else, man, you know, they have one, two sets of colors, they have their dress colors, they have their daily colors. It's, it's, it's a whole different world, you know, whole different world.

• 2:52:01Speaker 05

  Um, what effect, if any, did Sons of Anarchy have on outlaw motorcar gangs and law enforcement efforts to investigate them? Did they give away any trade secrets of note?

• 2:52:12Speaker 04

  You know, I, I, you know, what was funny about that series is ATF was always portrayed as assholes in that series, which we all got a good laugh at because, you know, at first, I think the first couple of seasons, the Vagos were the ones that were giving them their, uh, what you call it, um, their expertise or whatever. And then after that, then the Hells Angels took it over. That's where every time anything related to ATF was brought in, it was always brought in in a bad light. But Sons of Anarchy, for the first couple of years, it was, it was pretty spot on with a lot of the stuff that they talked about, you know, who were giving them their advice, who were, who, who, who were directing them. Then it kinda got way out of control and, you know, because it, it, you know, it's TV,

• 2:52:54Speaker 04

  you know, nothing in real life is ever as sexy as it is TV. There are some things that happen and, and, and some craziness, but it's nothing like Sons of Anarchy, Sons of Anarchy at all.

• 2:53:05Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 2:53:06Speaker 04

  I don't think it impacted any, any investigations, it was on while other investigations were going on, you know?

• 2:53:11Speaker 05

  Uh, and then what is your opinion of how the investigation and prosecution of the Waco Twin Peaks shootout was conducted at both the state and federal level? Do we have the whole story or is there still more to trickle out someday?

• 2:53:24Speaker 04

  You know, that case, you know, I had a good buddy, Darren Kozlowski went testified down in that. I mean, the fact that, you know, I mean, I think there were some, according to the guys that I talked to that were involved in that investigation and it testified, there were some balls that were dropped. There were people that should have been charged. I mean, if you watched the video, I mean, you know, it could only be so much self-defense. But no, the story's out there. There wasn't anything that was being hidden. It was just in the way that they prosecuted the case. It wasn't, it didn't bring, you know, a good, a good end result.

• 2:54:01Speaker 05

  Yeah, I just, you know, you know, you've talked about these really big cases with these, you know, with these bad actors, very bad actors. And, you know, there are going to be people who comment later on about ATF and, you know, the issues, whether it's DEA, ATF, you know, feds. What is your response to people who, who talk about, like the federal, like if we were to talk about Ruby Ridge or whatever, you know, like when people, because people are obviously going to comment on this about the ATF going after the everyman.

• 2:54:40Speaker 05

  Not that, you know, not that Ruby Ridge was the everyman, but like, what would you say to people who are critical of organizations?

• 2:54:52Speaker 04

  So here's the deal. I can only speak for the guys that I, that I know, and that I respect in law enforcement. You go after people who are doing truly evil, bad things, right? If they're not, you let them go. I, I can tell you, I never took it personal when you look at, you know, who you're targeting. Cause they've either presented themselves in such a manner that they're doing something wrong. You know, everybody talks about ATF, you know, the gun law. We don't write the gun laws. Congress writes the gun law. If you don't like the laws, go to your congressman, go to your senator and get them changed. We only enforce them. So if you're supposed to have a gun, have all you can. If you're

• 2:55:35Speaker 04

  not supposed to have a gun, don't get caught. Cause if you get caught, you go into prison. So I mean, it's like anything with the drugs. I mean, whatever they do. So, you know, you can disparage law enforcement, you can disparage, you know,

• 2:55:49Speaker 04

  You know, there's always allegations of entrapment. There's always, you know, this and that. And we're like, go to court. Show where we are trapped because that's why I could tell you the guys that do, especially the infiltrations.

• 2:56:03Speaker 04

  Jay Dobbins, Mark Dines, Derek Kozlowski, you know, myself. You got Blake, I mean Blake Butler, Darrell. I mean, there's, there's countless guys, right? Billy Queen.

• 2:56:17Speaker 04

  Those guys, you know, people think because you're an undercover, you're a jackass, right? They think, oh, it's all fun and games and you're out there drinking. Cowboys. No, no. Yeah. You know, and even in our own agency, it's like, oh, the skeleton needs to come out of the closet, dust it off, let it go do its thing and get back in the closet. I had a, my sack told me one time, he goes, Frank, all those tattoos. He goes, you know, what, what, what will people think? I said, well, let me ask you something, Chris, and this was Chris Sadowski. I said, Chris, I said, do you pay me for what I look like? He goes, no. I go, I can wear long sleeves like you do because you're a suit. I go, I don't aspire to be you and be a suit. I go, let me ask you another question. I go, would you rather me be administratively sound or operationally sound?

• 2:57:02Speaker 04

  And he goes, operationally. I go into my point. I go, all that other bullshit is administrative. You can't die from that. I go, so all the guys that, that, that I know that did these type of cases. You know, and there's countless, I'm missing people. I mean, Steve Martin, you have to be, you have to know how to process everything. It wasn't until the mid 2000s where you were processing your own evidence, writing all your own reports, doing all of your electronic surveillance tapes, downloading them, transcribing them. I mean, you have to know something about the game. And like I said before.

• 2:57:40Speaker 04

  We never put anybody in jail who didn't deserve to be there. In fact, some, like I said, sometimes we would try to steer them away from the activity they wanted to do, but because of the sexiness of being involved in a criminal organization, all that goes along with that entire lifestyle. I mean, you know, that, that they get involved for that. And we try to tell people, you know, even today, you see guys, it's a, why are you involved in that? You know, there's no point.

• 2:58:08Jack Murphy?

  Yeah. Frank, this has been one of the most like roller coaster ride over the top interviews.

• 2:58:14Speaker 05

  It's been fantastic. Yeah.

• 2:58:16Jack Murphy?

  In 222 episodes. And thank you so much.

• 2:58:21Speaker 04

  I could talk for hours more. And if you guys want to bring some of the other guys in, there is just so much more to talk about.

• 2:58:28Jack Murphy?

  Frank, I would love, I would love to bring you and some of your buddies up here to Brooklyn to do another interview. Yeah. This has been awesome. And thank you so much for sharing your experiences with us.

• 2:58:40Speaker 05

  And, and real quick, where can people find you again? Both the cigar, like wherever you're at, out in public, where can people find you?

• 2:58:50Speaker 04

  Well, they could find us through the cigar, but I also have another company called Hard Knock Schoolhouse. It's hkschoolhouse.com. You can reach me there, or you can reach me through the website, theblackrivertobacco.com.

• 2:59:04Speaker 05

  There you go.

• 2:59:05Speaker 04

  We got social media and whatnot. And, you know, I hope people are going to call and say, hey, you're an asshole. And I go, you know, I, hey, I get a lot of people don't like, you know, the cops and they don't like a lot of that. And we're used to it. So I'm thick skinned by now. You're not going to, you know, I, you know, so it is what it is, you know?

• 2:59:25Jack Murphy?

  Well, uh, fellas out there, we will be back on Tuesday, right, Dee? Tuesday with Andy Stumpf, Cleared Hot Podcast, former SEAL Team Six Officer, I think NCO and then Officer.

• 2:59:40Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, so we're, we're really excited to have him on the show on Tuesday. Um, Frank, again, man, thank you so much for coming on. I know, I know we ran way over our time, but it was it was worth it for us.

• 2:59:52Speaker 05

  And we definitely want to have you back on. We want to have you in studio, smoke some stogies.

• 2:59:56Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 2:59:57Speaker 04

  Yeah. Well, then, okay, I'll come.

• 2:59:59Jack Murphy?

  All right.

• 3:00:00Speaker 04

  I'll bring some guys and some

• 3:00:01Speaker 05

  Perfect, yeah.

• 3:00:02Speaker 04

  dine and we'll have a good time. You just let me know when.

• 3:00:04Speaker 05

  We are down for it.

• 3:00:06Jack Murphy?

  We'll do it, man.

• 3:00:07Speaker 04

  Hey, thanks, guys. I really appreciate you having on. I, I know I'm a different, I'm a different animal from what you guys are used to having on and, you know, I, it's just my family's like, are you really going to go on here? I go, I, I don't care.

• 3:00:21Jack Murphy?

  It's

• 3:00:21Speaker 04

  You know,

• 3:00:22Jack Murphy?

  It's fascinating.

• 3:00:23Speaker 05

  Different animals, same zoos, Frank. I mean, we're, it's, it's all great, you know, like, we love it.

• 3:00:28Jack Murphy?

  I, I, look, I, fi- fi- final, final comment, I, I've said in, in, in the past, maybe privately, I interview a lot of like, uh, people from the intelligence community, special operations community, and I always run up against, especially doing a, a public interview like this, like, eh, I can't really talk about that, but with guys like you, whether your cases have been prosecuted, it's just like game on and, and you can tell the whole story from front to back. And it's just

• 3:00:53Speaker 05

  It's amazing stuff.

• 3:00:54Jack Murphy?

  It is.

• 3:00:55Speaker 04

  Well, I, I'll tell you, ju- just one last comment. So

• 3:00:57Jack Murphy?

  Sure.

• 3:00:58Speaker 04

  You know, just in dealing with some of the guys that we, you know, on the military side that would come to our training and we would go to their training and, you know, we, we, you know, got to make a lot of good friends. And it was always funny because, you know, we would sit there in awe and listen to their stories, right? And, and they're like, well, it's no big deal. This is what we do every day. And then we would tell our stories and they would sit there in awe going, holy shit. And it, you know, just the mutual respect, although the operations are different,

• 3:01:25Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 3:01:25Speaker 04

  the sacrifices and the hardships are no less.

• 3:01:27Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 3:01:28Speaker 04

  And, and that's, and that's, I think that's where the camaraderie comes with all of that. You know, people just, you know, and not everybody has the same road, but there are a lot of different things to go along with travel and the road that a lot of us have traveled.

• 3:01:41Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 3:01:42Speaker 04

  You know?

• 3:01:42Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, absolutely. Hard for me. Well, we'll, we'll stay in touch, man. We'll love to do it again. And, uh, yeah, man, again, thank you for coming on the show and, uh, I spent some of your Friday evening with us.

• 3:01:53Speaker 05

  Yeah, we deeply appreciate it.

• 3:01:55Speaker 04

  You're gonna need to get bigger cops because none of us are small enough to.

• 3:01:59Jack Murphy?

  We got, we got several other chairs we can push up here.

• 3:02:01Speaker 04

  Okay, bean, bean bags.

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• 3:05:09Speaker 04

  Hold on, I'll be rolling off.

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  Exactly. It could be done.

• 3:05:13Jack Murphy?

  Alright guys. We'll see you on Tuesday. Thank you.

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  All right. Thanks, everybody. Take care.

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  ChatGPT for Teens is designed to help teens learn, think critically, and grow their skills. ChatGPT for Teens supports active learning by breaking concepts down. Rather than giving teens the answer, study mode helps teens work through problems, and interactive quizzes test their knowledge and provide immediate feedback. Safety protections are on by default, and parental controls offer families additional options like setting study hours and quiet hours. Visit chatgpt.comPARENTS to learn more.

• 3:07:20Speaker 00

  Forget whatever plans you have this weekend because you're staying at home and playing on SpinQuest. And there's never been a better time to sign up than right now. New users get $30 coin packs for just $10. All the table games you love with hundreds of slot games and real cash prizes. That's at spinquest.com. S-P-I-N-Q-U-E-S-T.com.

• 3:07:41Speaker 01

  SpinQuest is a free-to-play social casino. Void where prohibited. Visit spinquest.com for more details.

• 3:07:49Speaker 01

  Cash flow crunch? OnDeck's small business line of credit gives your business immediate access to funds up to $200,000 right when you need it. Cover seasonal dips, manage payroll, restock inventory, or tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat. With flexible draws, transparent pricing, and control over repayment, get funded quickly and confidently. Apply today at ondeck.com. Funds could be available as soon as tomorrow. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 3:08:26Speaker 06

  ChatGPT for Teens is designed to help teens learn, think critically, and grow their skills. ChatGPT for Teens supports active learning by breaking concepts down. Rather than giving teens the answer, study mode helps teens work through problems and interactive quizzes test their knowledge and provide immediate feedback. Safety protections are on by default, and parental controls offer families additional options, like setting study hours and quiet hours. Visit chatgpt.comPARENTS to learn more.

• 3:08:55Speaker 00

  Forget whatever plans you have this weekend because you're staying at home and playing on Spin Quest. And there's never been a better time to sign up than right now. New users get $30 coin packs for just $10. All the table games you love, with hundreds of slot games and real cash prizes. That's at spinquest.com. S.P.I.N.Q.U.E.S.T. com.

• 3:09:16Speaker 01

  Spin Quest is a free-to-play social casino. Void where prohibited. Visit spinquest.com for more details.

• 3:09:24Speaker 02

  Cash flow crunch? OnDeck's small business line of credit gives your business immediate access to funds, up to $200,000, right when you need it. Cover seasonal dips, manage payroll, restock inventory, or tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat. With flexible draws, transparent pricing, and control over repayment, get funded quickly and confidently. Apply today at ondeck.com. Funds could be available as soon as tomorrow. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 3:10:01Speaker 06

  ChatGPT for Teens is designed to help teens learn, think critically, and grow their skills. ChatGPT for Teens supports active learning by breaking concepts down. Rather than giving teens the answer, study mode helps teens work through problems and interactive quizzes test their knowledge and provide immediate feedback. Safety protections are on by default, and parental controls offer families additional options, like setting study hours and quiet hours. Visit chatgpt.comPARENTS to learn more.

• 3:10:30Speaker 04

  Oh, I have had no luck lately. Wait, lady luck?

• 3:10:34Speaker 07

  Bresty, I got you. I've had so much luck on spinquest.com. They have all of my favorite games, slot games, live blackjack craps, and bubble craps. You can even get a $30 coin pack for just 10 bucks.

• 3:10:47Speaker 04

  10 bucks for 30? I'm headed over to spinquest.com right now.

• 3:10:51Speaker 01

  Spinquest is a free-to-play social casino. Void where prohibited. Visit spinquest.com for more details.

• 3:10:59Speaker 01

  Cash flow crunch? OnDeck's small business line of credit gives your business immediate access to funds, up to $200,000, right when you need it. Cover seasonal dips, manage payroll, restock inventory, or tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat. With flexible draws, transparent pricing, and control over repayment, get funded quickly and confidently. Apply today at ondeck.com. Funds could be available as soon as tomorrow. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 3:11:36Speaker 06

  ChatGPT for Teens is designed to help teens learn, think critically, and grow their skills. ChatGPT for Teens supports active learning by breaking concepts down. Rather than giving teens the answer, study mode helps teens work through problems and interactive quizzes test their knowledge and provide immediate feedback. Safety protections are on by default, and parental controls offer families additional options like setting study hours and quiet hours. Visit chatgpt.com/parents to learn more.

• 3:12:04Speaker 07

  Hey guys, Lady Luck here. I just love the fall season. Cris mornings, pumpkin spice latte, and it's the best time to cozy up and play Spinquest. They have over 1,000 different slots in all my favorite casino-style games. And they're running a deal for all new players, a $30 coin package for just 10 bucks. So this fall, grab your favorite blanket, visit spinquest.com, and download the app today.

• 3:12:28Speaker 01

  Spinquest is a free-to-play social casino. Void where prohibited. Visit spinquest.com for more details.

• 3:12:34Speaker 02

  OnDeck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team, or bridging cash flow gaps, OnDeck's loans up to $400,000 help make it happen fast. Rated A+ by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of 5-star TrustPilot reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in minutes at ondeck.com. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 3:13:09Speaker 06

  ChatGPT for Teens is designed to help teens learn, think critically, and grow their skills. ChatGPT for Teens supports active learning by breaking concepts down. Rather than giving teens the answer, Study Mode helps teens work through problems, and interactive quizzes test their knowledge and provide immediate feedback. Safety protections are on by default, and parental controls offer families additional options, like setting study hours and quiet hours. Visit chatgpt.com/parents to learn more.

• 3:13:37Speaker 00

  You know what? It sucks to be bored. But when I get on my phone and play real casino games on spinquest.com, the time flies by. That two-hour wait at the DMV seems like 10 minutes. Play your favorite slots, live blackjack, live craps, with a live dealer. New players, $30 coin packs are on sale for $10. Play spinquest.com and you'll never be bored again.

• 3:14:01Speaker 01

  Spinquest is a free-to-play social casino. Void where prohibited. Visit spinquest.com for more details.

• 3:14:07Speaker 02

  OnDeck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team, or bridging cash flow gaps, OnDeck's loans up to $400,000 help make it happen fast. Rated A+ by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of 5-star TrustPilot reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in minutes at ondeck.com. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 3:14:42Speaker 06

  ChatGPT for Teens is designed to help teens learn, think critically, and grow their skills. ChatGPT for Teens supports active learning by breaking concepts down. Rather than giving teens the answer, study mode helps teens work through problems, and interactive quizzes test their knowledge and provide immediate feedback. Safety protections are on by default, and parental controls offer families additional options, like setting study hours and quiet hours. Visit chatgpt.comPARENTS to learn more.

• 3:15:09Speaker 07

  Hey guys, Lady Luck here. I just love the fall season. Cris mornings, pumpkin spice latte, and it's the best time to cozy up and play Spin Quest. They have over a thousand different slots in all my favorite casino-style games. And they're running a deal for all new players, a $30 coin package for just $10. So this fall, grab your favorite blanket, visit spinquest.com, and download the app today.

• 3:15:34Speaker 01

  Spin Quest is a free-to-play social casino. Void where prohibited. Visit spinquest.com for more details. Cash flow crunch? OnDeck's small business line of credit gives your business immediate access to funds, up to $200,000, right when you need it. Cover seasonal dips, manage payroll, restock inventory, or tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat. With flexible draws, transparent pricing, and control over repayment, get funded quickly and confidently. Apply today at ondeck.com. Funds could be available as soon as tomorrow. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 3:16:17Speaker 06

  ChatGPT for Teens is designed to help teens learn, think critically, and grow their skills. ChatGPT for Teens supports active learning by breaking concepts down. Rather than giving teens the answer, study mode helps teens work through problems, and interactive quizzes test their knowledge and provide immediate feedback. Safety protections are on by default, and parental controls offer families additional options, like setting study hours and quiet hours. Visit chatgpt.comPARENTS to learn more.

• 3:16:45Speaker 00

  Forget whatever plans you have this weekend because you're staying at home and playing on Spinquest. And there's never been a better time to sign up than right now. New users get $30 coin packs for just $10. All the table games you love with hundreds of slot games and real cash prizes. That's at spinquest.com. S-P-I-N-Q-U-E-S-T.com.

• 3:17:07Speaker 01

  Spinquest is a free-to-play social casino. Void where prohibited. Visit spinquest.com for more details.

• 3:17:12Speaker 02

  Cash flow crunch? OnDeck's small business line of credit gives your business immediate access to funds up to $200,000 right when you need it. Cover seasonal dips, manage payroll, restock inventory, or tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat. With flexible draws, transparent pricing, and control over repayment, get funded quickly and confidently. Apply today at ondeck.com. Funds could be available as soon as tomorrow. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 3:17:45Speaker 06

  ChatGPT for Teens is designed to help teens learn, think critically, and grow their skills. ChatGPT for Teens supports active learning by breaking concepts down. Rather than giving teens the answer, study mode helps teens work through problems, and interactive quizzes test their knowledge and provide immediate feedback. Safety protections are on by default, and parental controls offer families additional options, like setting study hours and quiet hours. Visit chatgpt.com/parents to learn more.

• 3:18:17Speaker 07

  Hey guys, Lady Luck here. I just love the fall season. Cris mornings, pumpkin spice latte, and it's the best time to cozy up and play Spinquest. They have over 1,000 different slots in all my favorite casino-style games. And they're running a deal for all new players: a $30 coin package for just $10. So this fall, grab your favorite blanket, visit spinquest.com, and download the app today.

• 3:18:42Speaker 01

  Spinquest is a free-to-play social casino. Void where prohibited. Visit spinquest.com for more details.

• 3:18:47Speaker 02

  Cash flow crunch? OnDeck's small business line of credit gives your business immediate access to funds, up to $200,000, right when you need it. Cover seasonal dips, manage payroll, restock inventory, or tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat. With flexible draws, transparent pricing, and control over repayment, get funded quickly and confidently. Apply today at ondeck.com. Funds could be available as soon as tomorrow. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 3:19:24Speaker 06

  ChatGPT for Teens is designed to help teens learn, think critically, and grow their skills. ChatGPT for Teens supports active learning by breaking concepts down. Rather than giving teens the answer, Study Mode helps teens work through problems, and interactive quizzes test their knowledge and provide immediate feedback. Safety protections are on by default, and parental controls offer families additional options, like setting study hours and quiet hours. Visit chatgpt.com/parents to learn more.

• 3:19:52Speaker 00

  It's big, spooky, and wicked. Spinquest.com. Grab a handful of Halloween treats like blackjack, bubble craps, and slots. All your freaking faves in one beautiful place. Spinquest.com. And right now, new monsters get $30 coin packs for 10. Visit spinquest.com or download the app tonight.

• 3:20:16Speaker 01

  Spinquest is a free-to-play social casino. Void where prohibited. Visit spinquest.com for more details.

• 3:20:22Speaker 06

  OnDeck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team, or bridging cash flow gaps, OnDeck's loans up to $400,000 make it happen fast. Rated A+ by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of 5-star TrustPilot reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in minutes at ondeck.com. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 3:20:55Speaker 06

  ChatGPT for Teens is designed to help teens learn, think critically, and grow their skills. ChatGPT for Teens supports active learning by breaking concepts down. Rather than giving teens the answer, study mode helps teens work through problems, and interactive quizzes test their knowledge and provide immediate feedback. Safety protections are on by default, and parental controls offer families additional options, like setting study hours and quiet hours. Visit chatgpt.comPARENTS to learn more.

• 3:21:22Speaker 07

  Hey guys, Lady Luck here. I just love the fall season. Crisp mornings, pumpkin spice latte, and it's the best time to cozy up and play Spin Quest. They have over a thousand different slots in all my favorite casino-style games. And they're running a deal for all new players: a $30 coin package for just $10. So this fall, grab your favorite blanket, visit spinquest.com, and download the app today.

• 3:21:47Speaker 01

  Spin Quest is a free-to-play social casino. Void where prohibited. Visit spinquest.com for more details. Cash flow crunch? OnDeck's small business line of credit gives your business immediate access to funds, up to $200,000, right when you need it. Cover seasonal dips, manage payroll, restock inventory, or tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat. With flexible draws, transparent pricing, and control over repayment, get funded quickly and confidently. Apply today at ondeck.com. Funds could be available as soon as tomorrow. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval. She's been thinking about this sleepover all week, but I think about her food allergies all the time. Fortunately, her doctor prescribed Zolair, omalizumab.

• 3:22:31Speaker 01

  It's proven to significantly reduce allergic reactions if a food allergy accident happens. Zolir 150mg is a prescription medication used to treat food allergy in people one year of age and older to reduce allergic reactions due to accidental exposure to food. To one of more foods. While taking Zolair, you should continue to avoid all foods to which you are allergic. Don't use if you are allergic to Zolair. Zolair may cause a severe, life-threatening allergic reaction called anaphylaxis. Tell your doctor if you ever had anaphylaxis. Get help right away if you have trouble breathing or if you have swelling of your throat or tongue. Zolair should not be used for the emergency treatment of allergic reactions, including anaphylaxis. Zolair is for maintenance use to reduce allergic reactions, including anaphylaxis, while avoiding food allergens. Serious side effects such as cancer, fever, muscle aches and rash, parasitic infection or heart and circulation problems have been reported.

• 3:23:15Speaker 01

  Please see zolair.com for full prescribing information. Ask an allergist about Zolair. This is an advertisement for Zolair paid for by Genentech and Novartis.

• 3:23:23Speaker 06

  ChatGPT for Teens is designed to help teens learn, think critically, and grow their skills. ChatGPT for Teens supports active learning by breaking concepts down. Rather than giving teens the answer, study mode helps teens work through problems and interactive quizzes test their knowledge and provide immediate feedback. Safety protections are on by default. And parental controls offer families additional options, like setting study hours and quiet hours. Visit chatgpt.comPARENTS to learn more.

• 3:23:52Speaker 00

  Forget whatever plans you have this weekend because you're staying at home and playing on Spin Quest! And there's never been a better time to sign up than right now. New users get $30 coin packs for just $10. All the table games you love, with hundreds of slot games and real cash prizes. That's at spinquest.com. S-P-I-N-Q-U-E-S-T.com.

• 3:24:13Speaker 01

  Spin Quest is a free-to-play social casino. Void where prohibited. Visit spinquest.com for more details.