Fixing Higher Education & New Startup Opportunities with Marc and Ben

"The Ben & Marc Show" features a16z's co-founders Ben Horowitz & Marc Andreessen. In this episode, Marc and Ben continue their in-depth exploration of the current education system. While Part I of their discussion unpacked the crisis facing higher education, Part II presents solutions to overhaul the modern university. In this one-on-one conversation, Ben and Marc delve into actions that existing institutions can take to improve their current and future situations. This includes exploring new methods for talent recruitment, providing a more individualized education experience for students, and reducing administrative bloat. They also apply an entrepreneurial lens to each university function, revealing startup opportunities poised to emerge – including the building of brand new institutions, nonprofits, and research entities. Enjoy!

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Marc Andreessen?

  Universities historically only were ever built to train a very small percentage of the 18-year-olds.

• 0:08Ben Horowitz?

  How can we have a population that reflects America was kind of the goal as opposed to what's the best product opportunity for students in populations where we're not doing a good job of recruiting?

• 0:27Marc Andreessen?

  There's one educational intervention technique that reliably generates better outcomes and in fact it generates what are called two sigma better outcome. So it's an intervention that routinely takes kids who would score at the 50th percentile of outcome and moves them to the 99th percentile of outcome.

• 0:40Ben Horowitz?

  We probably need to fix the old ones in and build some new ones. Just give it as fast as the world will see it all.

• 0:46Marc Andreessen?

  The cost has risen much faster than inflation. And then you can just ask the question, are the results better than they were 20 years ago?

• 0:53Steph Smith?

  Hello everyone. Welcome back to the A16Z Podcast. This is your host, Steph Smith. Now, in a recent episode, you got to hear from our co-founders, Mark and Dreeson and Ben Horowitz, as they talked about the crisis in higher education. Now, they did so by breaking down the 12 functions of the modern university, going all the way back to when these institutions were founded. But today, you'll get to hear part two of that very conversation as they focus on the present, exploring different solutions for overhauling the modern university, an admittedly difficult task, as they get into, especially given the many stakeholders with varying incentives. Mark and Ben, of course, take an entrepreneurial lens to this age-old industry, servicing opportunities at every

• 1:35Steph Smith?

  step, from recruitment to student experience to the administrative blow. And if you're interested in hearing part three of this series, an extensive Q and A on the topic, you can go ahead and check out the Ben and Mark Show wherever you get your podcasts. It's time to fix.

• 1:52Steph Smith?

  As a reminder, the content here is for informational purposes only, should not be taken as legal, business, tax, or investment advice, or be used to evaluate any investment or security, and is not directed at any investors or potential investors in any A16Z fund. Please note that A16Z and its affiliates may also maintain investments in the companies discussed in this podcast. For more details, including a link to our investments, please see a16z.com/disclosures.

• 2:22Marc Andreessen?

  We did an episode about a week ago on universities. So the prevailing kind of issues in universities, the sort of crisis that they're going through. Very important to, I want to reiterate kind of why we did that one, which I'd encourage people to listen to, actually first, if you haven't heard it before this one, this is part two. But also kind of why we're doing it. So we're sort of discussing kind of this rolling crisis that a lot of the universities, particularly the American universities are going through right now. Very important to understand two things from our standpoint. One is the reason we're digging into this topic is really actually twofold, and we'll talk about both parts today, which is these are like incredibly important institutions for the country and for the people of the country and, you know, by extension for the world. So it's really critically important that what happens in American universities goes well. And it's a very big problem, not just for them, but for a lot of the rest of us when they don't go well.

• 3:06Marc Andreessen?

  And look, Ben and I talked about this last time, but you know, our personal stories obviously involve we're here where we are because of the great experiences that we had at universities. And then, you know, the university, both teaching process, generating graduates and research process, of course, is kind of the seed bed of everything in the tech industry and Silicon Valley and everything that we do every day. So these are important topics. The other thing worth noting is, you know, we're not just doing this to kind of criticize. We're trying to see if we can be constructive. And in particular, we're trying to take a look at the issues, not through sort of a moment in time, hot in the news, you know, kind of perspective, but rather sort of a structural standpoint. So we're analyzing universities as if they're systems and they're structures and they have incentives and they have ways of doing things. And those ways of doing things have built up over a long time.

• 3:48Marc Andreessen?

  And just the nature of large organizations and systems that build up over a long time is sometimes they accumulate problems and sometimes they need change and improvement and reform. So that's why we think it's a good thing to look at. The other perspective that we have is that there are clearly startup opportunities emerging. And we're going to talk quite a bit today, both about what the existing institutions could do to maybe improve their situations. But we're also going to talk about some of the startup opportunities that are kind of flowing from the crisis in higher education. And by the way, those startup opportunities would probably be appearing anyway because the higher education system, you know, just can't reach most kids who need to get educated around the world. And so there would probably be startup opportunities even without issues. But it may be that if the universities can't fix some of their issues, ultimately that there will be opportunities to build new institutions, new companies, new nonprofits,

• 4:33Marc Andreessen?

  you know, maybe new research entities and maybe do more of the things that universities have historically done.

• 4:38Ben Horowitz?

  We probably need to fix the old ones and then build some new ones, just given how fast the world is evolving.

• 4:44Marc Andreessen?

  Yeah, I mean, look like, you know, part of the context for all this is that universities, you know, historically only were ever built to train a very small percentage of the 18 year olds, you know, in the world each year. I don't have the numbers in front of me, but the number of people who turn 18 per year worldwide, it's like extraordinarily large number, you know, it's many, many tens of millions. And so the sort of current higher education system, you know, was never built and is not built to accommodate that.

• 5:08Ben Horowitz?

  It is built for a small number of religious scholars.

• 5:11Marc Andreessen?

  Yes, originally, yes. And then a small number later, a small number of secular scholars. And, you know, in the US, the universities have become a sort of a much more broad-based expectation that people go to college, you know, as we talked about last time. But even if you could send every 18 year old in the US to college, the US is still only 4% of the population. And so 96% of kids, actually probably more than that, every year, 18 year old kids are outside the US. And most of them are in places that don't have, you know, physical colleges, universities. And so there's a general scaling problem, right? Which probably needs to be addressed separately from the existing system anyway. So we're going to dive in a lot to all of that. And then we have a lot of great Twitter questions, which we are going to get to at the end, or if we go super long.

• 5:49Ben Horowitz?

  We'll do part three.

• 5:50Marc Andreessen?

  We'll do part three. Okay. So the way that I think about how to get started is sort of the question that we left off at the end of the last podcast, which is sort of the, okay, the last discussion, we went through all the issues and then we kind of left dangling, all right, what do you do about them? So this is the what do you do section. I wanted to start by talking about this, you know, the way we try to always do this in business is to try to start with like, okay, before you figure out what you're going to do, it's like, okay, what exactly are your goals? And then, of course, the very nice question, you know, from what are your exact goals is sort of the question of what exactly are your goals for who? Right? Who are you trying to satisfy? Who are the customers? You know, last time, we listed out the 12 functions of the modern American university, which you can hear all about on that last episode. And then what jumps right out of the list of sort of the 12 functions of the modern American university is, you know, the universities,

• 6:34Marc Andreessen?

  the way they run today, they certainly have a large number of different constituents. So I made a list, I came up with, I think there's like 16 or 18 on the list. I'll list them real quickly. Students, faculty, administrators, board of trustees, alumni, donors, downstream employers who hire the graduates, parents who are very involved, of course, immigration officials, sports fans, regulators, politicians, the press, which is of course scrutinizes universities all the time, downstream policymakers who are influenced by the science and policy prescriptions coming out of the universities, and then number 15, society as a whole. So that was my.

• 7:12Ben Horowitz?

  Society as a whole is a tough customer, by the way.

• 7:14Marc Andreessen?

  Yeah, well, it very much is. And universities have designed themselves from actually inception to have a big impact on broad society. You know, that's one of the goals is they are trying to reform society, advance society. And so having put themselves in that position, they're naturally going to get scrutinized by society.

• 7:28Ben Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 7:29Marc Andreessen?

  So how do you think about from a leadership standpoint, right? And a management standpoint, and with your experience on the Columbia Board, but from general leadership standpoint, how do you think about an institute? Like, you know, look, we all know it's hard enough to just like run a company that just has customers.

• 7:42Ben Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 7:42Marc Andreessen?

  Right? Or customers and employees, or customers, employees, shareholders, right? You two, three, four constituents, hard enough. How do you even think about approaching the job of leading an institution that has that many constituents?

• 7:53Ben Horowitz?

  Well, I do think companies do have a lot of constituents also, but they're, I would say, just a little bit have better clarity and uniformity on which are the most important constituents. So if you look at us, like at Andreessen Horowitz, so we have investors, you know, we've got entrepreneurs, we've got employees of entrepreneurs, we've got our own employees, we have the press, we have society as a whole. Like all these things to consider, you know, in our kind of wealth management thing, we've got a kind of wealth management, kind of clientele and all that kind of thing. But I think it's very clear to us, and we try to make clear to everybody in the firm, and I think everybody in the firm is very clear on it,

• 8:38Ben Horowitz?

  that if we don't attract the best entrepreneurs in the world, that none of the other things matter. So it kind of is, okay, great, you have all these people who have an interest in it, but you've got to get the main thing done. And anything that compromises a prime directive has got to go and be subordinated. And I think that, you know, in the universities, partly because of just sheer size of them, you know, you have people who have no concern about the students at all, like large pockets of the kind of university that are only focused on kind of one of the other things. And that's where I think, you know, it starts to lose its focus and degrade the product

• 9:22Ben Horowitz?

  for the most important constituent, which I'd argue is students.

• 9:26Marc Andreessen?

  Yeah. So if you were, you know, especially with your board experience, if you were placed in charge of one of these tomorrow, like, how would you rank these? Or maybe that's an unfair question. Maybe the question is, how would you even go about figuring out how to rank them?

• 9:36Ben Horowitz?

  Yeah, look, I think you have to kind of start with students and then everything on the list is a little bit in service of students to varying degrees. So the faculty, right, are obviously in service of the students. The administrators are in service of the students. The alumni are to kind of give money to support the students. And they're kind of, you know, depending on, you know, what your issue is in attracting the best kind of brightest students and giving them an experience and a kind of product and a career, the things that they're looking for, that's optimal, you know, you would kind

• 10:18Ben Horowitz?

  of prioritize things to get you to there. And like, there's always things that, you know, regulators are, you know, something that any business has got to mitigate or, you know, deal with and so forth. And that's not going to be a primary thing, but you have a small team, hopefully that's focused on that. But I think, you know, you can easily lose the thread if, you know, you manage to noise levels or, you know, the press is probably the most distracting one, right? Because if the press calls us a name or says we're not doing our job, then all of a sudden, like, a huge focus goes over there. And that, you know, if you're not careful, that'll distract from, you know, what you want for your kind of main customer. Yeah. And that's, I think, to a large degree, you know, what's

• 11:03Ben Horowitz?

  happened, which is why, like, cost, like, how is it possible that tuition has gotten so high? Like, what the hell were you optimizing for that let you think that your students wanted, like, that was a good idea? And I think there were some market corruptions, right, where the government's providing loans to students. So that kind of led to upward pressure. And then there's, you know, other things like... Professors can get jobs in the private sector that, you know, which is a kind of a more scalable sector in terms of making money that could pay, you know, potentially a lot more than you could pay in academia. So that drives salaries up and and so forth. So there's a lot of factors that lead to that. But like, at the end of the day, like, how the hell do you end up

• 11:47Ben Horowitz?

  with a product that costs $300,000 and gets the average student a job that's worth, you know, like 50,000, how are they ever going to pay back $300,000 if they only make $50,000 a year? Like, that's insane. And that's kind of where I think the product for the student has fallen apart. And so maybe that's a good place to start and like, okay. So what would you do to get costs at the university under control? And I think, you know, one of the kind of big things that we've learned, which is, you know, it's stunning when you hear it. But like it got there incrementally, obviously, which is, you know, at many of the kind of elite institutions, the number of administrators outnumbers the number of students. Right.

• 12:32Ben Horowitz?

  And it's like, okay, that's an opportunity for savings. And I think, like, if you just tighten your belt, you'd go, okay, like, maybe we can do a 20% reduction there and so forth. But if you think about it a different way, I mean, to me, it's very analogous to, you know, we had a debate recently when the Biden administration hired 86,000 new IRS agents. And it was very partisan debate, as it always is, like, you know, why are these people coming after my money? Like, what are you cheating on your taxes, da, da, da? But that wasn't really the interesting thing. The interesting thing was, like, anybody kind of in our business would go, well, you could have just hired

• 13:13Ben Horowitz?

  seven good software engineers and they would have done a far better job than 86,000 agents at figuring out who was cheating on their taxes because it's like, it's a data, it's a forms problem. Like, this is what computers are amazing at and AI is, you know, people talk about what AI is good at. I'll tell you what AI is really good at, filling out forms, looking at forms, getting data out of forms, comparing that data to what the data should be, figuring out things, anomalies in the data that no human could, you know, it's amazing at that. And Could AI do all these administrative tasks? Couldn't you just get rid of like that whole thing? Or like whatever 95% of it? And then, you know, you're starting to get costs back where they are.

• 13:57Marc Andreessen?

  Well, if I could, just a couple of things on that. So one is it begs the question of who your constituency is? Cause if your top constituency is administrators. And to the extent that the institution is being run for itself, right? Then obviously that's a direct threat.

• 14:09Ben Horowitz?

  Yeah, look, I think that's always a thing in every organization, right? Like one of your constituencies are your employees. But when your employees take precedent over your customers, that's usually the end of the business. Right? Like this is kind of the pattern. In the private sector, you tend to go bankrupt a lot faster because there aren't government subsidies and tax credits. And there are so many goodies that the universities, you know, have access to and are part of their constituents. That that's not something that happens in business, but eventually over time in the long run, if the employees become more important than the customers, you get to the same end.

• 14:44Marc Andreessen?

  Yeah, one of those sort of quirks in the incentives of the whole thing, see if this makes sense, is that one of the parties that's not a constituent, to your point you just made, is shareholders, right? So for-profit companies have shareholders, the universities are nonprofits, they don't. But the consequence, very interesting incentive consequence of being a nonprofit, which is a nonprofit, right? The whole point is that you're not for profit, you're not trying to generate profit. And so you're sort of implicitly trying to break even. And so if you have the opportunity to have rapidly ramping revenues because of subsidies, you then actually have every reason in the world to ramp expenses at the same rate, right? You, you, you don't want to.

• 15:18Ben Horowitz?

  Mass of margins, exactly.

• 15:19Marc Andreessen?

  Exactly. Like it's not your purpose to generate margins. You wouldn't be able to do anything with the money anyway. It might even cause problems because it would cause people to scrutinize what's going on. And so there's this thing where with a nonprofit, the expense statement, you know, will scale to meet the available funding. Sort of on autopilot, right? To make sure the thing goes to break even. And this is the counter argument to people who argue that nonprofits are somehow, you know, better lined up to do good things than for-profits, which is like, okay, what if they're actually wired to just like grow expenses to the moon? You know, and basically all the taxpayer dollar.

• 15:45Ben Horowitz?

  Yeah, I think that there's definitely an aspect of that. And I think that the university math is a little bit, if we can raise prices, then we will. And they kind of benchmark against each other. So, you know, student loan money pours in, Harvard raised their tuition, we can raise our tuition. Like, and you know, it just kind of cascades down the system. And you know, that kind of translates into higher salaries, more administrators, more this, more that, and so forth. But yeah, it certainly needn't be that way. And I think the idea of lowering tuition is a good idea. I mean, if you were to, you know, we'll get into this, but if you were to start a university from first principles, like, why would it cost sixty or seventy thousand dollars a year?

• 16:30Ben Horowitz?

  Like, that's outrageous, or it seems outrageous, like, to, you know, educate a student. Like, their best

• 16:37Marc Andreessen?

  Well, we know

• 16:38Ben Horowitz?

  tuition way to do that.

• 16:40Marc Andreessen?

  Yeah, well, and it's one, it's one of these things where you can just look at what it cost twenty years ago. And you can look at the fact that cost has risen much faster than inflation. And then you can just ask the question, are the results better than they were twenty years ago?

• 16:49Ben Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 16:49Marc Andreessen?

  Right? And so it's sort of by definition, it's like, okay, that's something you see in business also, which is just like, okay, what if we just went back to the cost structure we had twenty years ago or five years ago?

• 16:58Ben Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 16:59Marc Andreessen?

  Right?

• 16:59Ben Horowitz?

  And like, what's the product? Ask the people who are actually running it, by the way.

• 17:03Marc Andreessen?

  Correct. But if you're looking outside in, like, it is a really key question. In other words, like, you've proven historically that you could do it at a lower cost structure because you were doing it at a lower cost structure.

• 17:13Ben Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 17:13Marc Andreessen?

  Right? The reason I bring it up is like, you can't find an institution, you cannot find a university today that's trying to do what you're describing. As you said, they benchmark against each other, they're all on the same track. And so you could kind of say, okay, that's some sort of inductive proof that it's not possible to do what we're saying because like, nobody's even trying. But the counter argument to that is, no, it is possible to do it, and we know it because they were all doing it twenty years ago.

• 17:33Ben Horowitz?

  Yeah, and in real dollars, by the way, right, like, you know,

• 17:36Marc Andreessen?

  Right.

• 17:36Ben Horowitz?

  Inflation adjusted, tuition's grown at more than double the rate of inflation, so.

• 17:41Marc Andreessen?

  Something like triple the rate of inflation on a sustained basis.

• 17:43Ben Horowitz?

  Yeah. So clearly, clearly. Well, the other thing that's really interesting is, okay, if you're at sixty thousand dollars a year, or like, above,

• 17:56Ben Horowitz?

  that's probably a little more than the cost of having a, like, full-time, like, very smart instructor for your child, or for your teenager or whatever, right? Like, so you could literally assign every student, like, a really good instructor to teach them all these subjects, full-time, like, no other student, just one student.

• 18:20Ben Horowitz?

  And it would seem like you'd get potentially a better outcome with that method. So like, once you get to that level of absurdity, it's probably time to take a look at it.

• 18:29Marc Andreessen?

  Let's talk about that for a second because there's actually a lot of historical evidence been for what you just said. So if you go back in time, aristocratic education in prior societies, it was always one to one tutoring. Like offspring of royal families were always tutored one to one. And then you have these amazing historical precedents and Alexander the Great is kind of the apotheosis of this because his tutor was Aristotle. Right? And it's just pretty good, right? And then, and then, you know, even like the Greek philosophers like Socrates and all those guys, you know, their day job was, you know, what they did in the mornings was they did one on one tutoring to kids in Athens. And then in the afternoon, they hung out at the Agora and talked about things, but their job was actually tutoring. And, you know, that was obviously an amazing civilization. So there's a lot of like specific historical precedent. And then there's this thing in the education research, which is really striking. So one of the things in education research generally is that it basically fails.

• 19:15Marc Andreessen?

  Sort of all of the attempts to come up with systemic interventions to improve educational outcomes basically fail. And this has been the case for many decades.

• 19:21Ben Horowitz?

  Like pedagogy and things beyond tutor. Is that how you think about it?

• 19:24Marc Andreessen?

  Yeah, they just don't, most things you want to do, whether it's Head Start or this or that, or electronic, you know, laptops in the classroom. You just name any number of things where people have tried to inject money or new practices into the classroom at any level. And basically it's the null hypothesis keeps proving out over and over, which is they just don't change anything. And actually it's funny, the Gates Foundation actually, right, was just very heavily involved in education philanthropy. Actually put out a report a couple of years ago where they kind of go through this in detail. And it's very kind of discouraging in the sense of, look, it's easy to say like, a good teacher will do better. But it's much, much harder to say, we're going to make a million teachers better. Right? So even the things that work in the micro level, they just don't scale. There is one exception, there is one educational intervention technique that reliably generates better outcomes. And in fact, it generates what are called two sigma better outcomes, so two standard deviations.

• 20:07Marc Andreessen?

  So it's an intervention that routinely takes kids who would score at the 50th percentile of outcome and moves them to the 99th percentile of outcome. And it's one on one tutoring.

• 20:14Ben Horowitz?

  Oh yeah, one on one. Yeah. You know, this is also true with autistic kids. They've done similar research and the one thing that works is one on one tutoring. Or the one thing that's proven of all the interventions consistently, there is a professor at UCLA, Yvar Lovas, who.

• 20:31Ben Horowitz?

  Who kind of proved that out. So it's very consistent across all types of students, interestingly.

• 20:36Marc Andreessen?

  Right, right, exactly. And so there's this thing called the Bloom two sigma effect. The researcher who did the work on this, his name is Bloom. So it's called the Bloom two sigma effect. And it's kind of this great white whale of education, which is like, wow, we actually know how to make education like much better than it is. It's just historically been economically impractical. There's just no way that you could afford to have a one on one.

• 20:55Ben Horowitz?

  Until now.

• 20:56Marc Andreessen?

  Until.

• 20:58Ben Horowitz?

  The student loan money should go to.

• 21:01Marc Andreessen?

  You know, possibly, right?

• 21:03Ben Horowitz?

  Well, by the way, it's also good. Like, you know, one of the big critiques of academia, I think, from people like us is just that, like, when you go into academia, you're in this sort of bubble of a world. So if you're kind of coming up with new social sciences, theories or what have you, you know, you're testing them among like, you're kind of wrapped in people like yourselves. But if you go back and you say, well, Socrates' ideas at least had to stand up to his students in a much more direct way, because it's a one on one. Like, they're gonna have questions with us, where I think that if you're kind of elevate yourself to, you know, here I am, king of the class, and, you know, I'm going to give you a grade. So you better not, you know, say anything

• 21:48Ben Horowitz?

  nasty about my research. Like, that's a very different kind of a thing, I think. So, you know, it could be helpful on both sides in a way, although it doesn't quite take the expenses down, but it would hold them steady. Or maybe one tutor, maybe three students or something, right?

• 22:04Marc Andreessen?

  Yeah, but like, it's also the reference, like, and look, the expectation, I think, has to be the, look, if nothing, if current trends continue, then tuition will keep rising at 3X the rate of inflation or something like that. And so we'll be having.

• 22:14Ben Horowitz?

  The tutor would cost, yeah.

• 22:16Marc Andreessen?

  Yeah, we'll have a follow up to this podcast, you know, five or 10 years from now, and it'll have crossed the million dollar mark, right, per student, right? And at that point, the economics actually become quite overwhelming.

• 22:24Ben Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 22:25Marc Andreessen?

  In the direction of one to one instruction. So sitting here today, it sounds crazy that you would make this switch, but it's starting to sound sane. And so it's interesting to at least have like an indexed to potential competitive system. At least for the sanity check. So anyway, with that in mind, we immediately launched into kind of one of the more pie in the sky ideas. But let's go back to like the challenge of like, you're put in charge of one of these institutions tomorrow and you know, you're responsible for the turnaround or the reform that needs to happen. Which by the way, and then look, you know, a lot of smart people at the trustee level and president level and donor level and so forth are trying to reform the existing schools. So I think it's talking about that. So Ben, let's talk about the fix the university kind of plan. You wrote an outline prepping this. And so if you want, I can go through it point by point, or you could just launch.

• 23:00Ben Horowitz?

  Yeah, let me get into a thing that will illustrate the kind of customer problem and the systems thinking issue, which is, and you know, I hate to get into it because it's controversial, but I'm not going to get into the controversial aspect, which is kind of this whole diversity, equity, inclusion, and how these programs are designed. And I'll just contrast it with the way we designed our program, which you know, we call it a talent program, but it's essentially the same sort of thing. Because we designed ours with the kind of potential employees in mind. And I think that the system that was designed for the university was designed more

• 23:41Ben Horowitz?

  with the press in mind. So how can we have population that reflects America was kind of the goal as opposed to what's the best product opportunity for students in populations where we're not doing a good job of recruiting them, right? Like very different ideas on how you would start the design. And so if you start the design with, okay, we need 14% black students, whatever percent Jewish students, percent white students, et cetera. And by the way, we've got legacy and this kind of thing, then that forces you into a methodology that is kind

• 24:25Ben Horowitz?

  of whatever race or gender based, where you're like literally having them self identify themselves on their applications, and then trying to kind of funnel them through there. What's the problem with that? Well, there's a lot of like, very weird side effects. Like, first of all, if you look at graduation rates, or outcomes, or so forth, for diverse students are much worse than for your main students. So like, if you're designing for the student, you would never design it that way. That would be like an important metric. But that's not the important metric. The important metric is how many you let in. And so, you know, that's corrupting. Then the other, the second corrupting thing is everybody knows about that checkbox. And so, once, you know, the student arrives, now I'm like a little bit of a second-class citizen because

• 25:09Ben Horowitz?

  people are going to judge. Well, you could say, well, that's racist to say that. Well, yeah, but you set it up. Like, people don't unsee. Like, I apply, I check, you know, my Asian box or whatever that I'm checking. I know there's other boxes. And then, like, I read the news, so I know, like, how that works. And so, like, that kind of whole design based on trying to achieve a goal so that the New York Times says, "I'm not racist as a trustee or a faculty or whatever," gets you to that outcome. Now, you contrast that. Like, so how would you design it if you're designing for the customer? Well, I can tell you, because, like, we started the firm, and this was, it's important to note, this is pre-Me Too, pre-George Floyd, pre-when anybody cared about any of this stuff in Silicon Valley.

• 25:52Ben Horowitz?

  And so, what we kind of said was, like, how do we get competitive advantage on talent? And we thought, well, there are certain talent groups that don't get recruited, and certain talent groups that are over-recruited in Silicon Valley. Computer science students from Stanford are heavily recruited, MIT students, so forth. So, we started with, well, what about the second tier, the top students? The second, third-tier universities in computer science, can we go after those? And, you know, we put them on our list. The second one was veterans. Veterans don't make their way to Silicon Valley often, you know, because they just don't know that they're welcome there, or whatever, you know, whatever reason. So, that could be an advantage, and, you know, they tend to be good at things that we need, like,

• 26:37Ben Horowitz?

  very loyal, trained in leadership and kind of process development, things that we really kind of lacked in technology. So, we had a team to recruit veterans. And then, the other kind of two, that if you just looked at the numbers, that were way lower, like blacks and Hispanics. And so, we had teams for that. So, I was in charge of that part. By the way, like, note that because it's a talent program, we didn't hire anybody to run diversity. And you know, like these colleges to run the programs they have have like hundreds of people. But if it's just talent, then the people who are in charge of talent, which is like, of course, you know, people run the firm. Okay, so early on, like we're probably 2010, 2011 now, I'm kind of working on this problem.

• 27:18Ben Horowitz?

  And you know, I'm getting kind of input from people I know who have recruited from those populations who know them, know the special skills that might exist, how to attract people and so forth. And this is a very funny story to me. So I'm at lunch in Menlo Park at a restaurant called Stax, which you know well, with Steve Stout, who, you know, kind of came from the entertainment industry is kind of, you know, in music in particular, and rap music in particular, so like dominated by African Americans. And, you know, I'm talking to him about it and he says, Ben, do you know why there are no black people in Silicon Valley? Just like that, he says. And I said, no, why are there no black people in Silicon Valley? He said, look around.

• 28:02Ben Horowitz?

  There are no black people in Silicon Valley. And like literally, he was the only black person in all of the Stax is a pretty big restaurant, it's the only person. And so I was like, oh, that's interesting. And I looked up, you know, so United States is 14.3% black. But Palo Alto, Menlo Park, you're talking 2%. And so like right away, you go, okay, this isn't even an attractive place to live, or for whatever reason, people haven't even moved here. So like, maybe we need to start there. And so what did we do? We did film screenings and gatherings and meetups and barbecues and kind of tried to get to know the people that we wanted to recruit, know what would make for a good work environment for them by just spending like regular time.

• 28:45Ben Horowitz?

  And then we start to go, okay, here's a place in the firm where we need this talent. We already know all the people. We know who's the best. We've spent like we've invested the time and we're going to get them. And so then you come to the firm and our retention, our promotion rates and so forth are very good because we were always focused on the talent. We never cared about the New York Times because at that time, the New York Times didn't care about it. And so like you just get to a very different outcome when you focus on a different customer. And I'm going to kind of tell the the last part of the story, just so I can map it back to the university. So a few years ago, maybe it was five years ago,

• 29:28Ben Horowitz?

  Henry Louis Gates, who is the very famous, very talented professor of African-American history at Harvard, called me up because he wanted to basically raise money from me and has this thing, the Hip-Hop Archive at Harvard. And he said, Ben, I want to create a fellowship called the Horowitz Hip-Hop Fellowship at Harvard. And I go, well, Skip, if you call anything that, then everybody's going to hate me because Horowitz Hip-Hop sounds like really effed up. I said, but I have a friend, Nas, who deserves to have a hip-hop fellowship named after him. And I'll call Nas and see if he wants to do it. And we go through that and we call it the Nas Hip-Hop Fellowship.

• 30:10Ben Horowitz?

  So then they want to have a big event at Harvard and invite Nas there, which I do. And I get a call, you know, leading up to the event from Lisa New, who some of you may know, she's married to Larry Summers, who was, interestingly, fired as president of Harvard for saying something, you know, non-diverse. And she said, Ben, you know, I've been reading Nas's lyrics. I said, you've been reading his lyrics? She said, yeah. I said, you haven't been listening to his albums? She's like, no, no, just reading the lyrics. I'm like, okay, you know, the albums are good too, but whatever. And she said, you know, like, he's so good, like, I can't even believe how good this guy is, like, I'm talking like Ralph Waldo Emerson, Walt Whitman, he's like that level good. And I was like, wow, that's amazing.

• 30:54Ben Horowitz?

  But the thing that I realized when she said that is Harvard never recruited Nas or anybody like Nas. And if you think about it, right, black people dominate, dominate music in the United States. So why aren't you looking for the talent, doing the right things to recruit them? Why are you looking for the color? And that's, I think, I think a lot of the things at the universities, if you're going to take a systems view of it, you've got to start back there and say, like, how do we find the talent that we just, our regular process doesn't get to? Change our process, change our way of doing things to get to that talent. And then it's going to be better for us, better for the talent, better for the mission,

• 31:37Ben Horowitz?

  all those kinds of things, as opposed to letting some outside force tell us what we should be doing. And I think that's really emblematic of a lot of the things that I think have gone sideways in the university when it comes to diversifying the student body.

• 31:54Marc Andreessen?

  Yeah, so let me steel man the question, right, that you get a response to this and I'll use my special skill here. I'll use my special skill here of I'm an obsessive on all these topics and so I try to be able to think about it from all the points of view as well. I'll play super woke here for a second, which is like, look, Ben, like, you know, the whole point of the DEI programs like the universities is to try to like make sure that every field like engineering as an example has like equal representation by population. It feels like you're arguing that we should give up on that in favor of an approach that sounds like it involves stereotyping, which is we shouldn't take away the focus of recruiting black people in engineering program. We should increase the focus on taking black people in music program and we should do that on the basis of a stereotype that black people are better at music than are than than in engineering. Like, how do you? Yeah, how do you? Yeah, how do you like, explain that? How do you explain that, given the, given the moral framework people are starting with?

• 32:39Ben Horowitz?

  Well, look, I mean, I think, I think the the truth of the matter is, is, um, look, different, everybody's in it. First of all, like, everybody is an individual and should be treated as such in that sense. Um, but like, I think anybody with half a brain, well, who's observant, can observe some kind of very obvious things about different populations that they're interested in different things. Like, people have different interests. Um, like, so forget about even talent or this or that. And it goes by group and by culture and so forth. And this is, you know, um, there are things like every comedian makes jokes

• 33:21Ben Horowitz?

  about, you know, men like to sit around and watch sports and, you know, women like to watch other things and so forth. And that's very bad to say these days, obviously. Um, but if you look at just job categories, you know, I think veterinarians are 80% women. Um, and nurses is like much higher than that. Uh, those are good paying jobs.

• 33:46Marc Andreessen?

  Psychologists, by the way, at the university level, we were just psychologists, or it's up to add us up like 90 or 95% women now.

• 33:52Ben Horowitz?

  Yeah. And I think there's nothing wrong with that. And then, you know, similarly, like coal miners are almost all men, you know, people work in like oil rigs are almost all men, you know, MMA fighters are mostly men, although there are women who do it and there's nothing wrong with that. And so like, there are, I think you do have to, you know, in any kind of program where you're trying to get You know, and the whole point of diversity is diverse interests, diverse talent, right? Or ought to be anyway. And so if you're going into, you know, a population that's got a different culture and very likely different interests and, you know, and by the way, everybody's got different genetics too.

• 34:35Ben Horowitz?

  Then you kind of have to be a little more creative about just saying, we're only gonna, like if you, if you say, we're only gonna look at, you know, these test scores and these grades and these kinds of courses. Then obviously like those populations aren't showing up on that. That's why you have the program. So you can either go, well, we'll just still put them there where they haven't shown an interest or an aptitude. Yet, or like, or some of these students have, whatever. Or we can broaden our criteria to things that make big contributions to society and are important. And people may be like able to do better than our friends, the white nations, like over here.

• 35:21Ben Horowitz?

  And so like, that's the choice you have. I mean, you know, like, and I think it's just a better choice. So yes, you're not going to get equal distribution, just like, you know, like you don't get equal distribution in almost anything in life. It doesn't even make sense math wise, by the way, right? Like because the population is 14%, first of all, like 14% in total across age groups, not 18 year olds. So like, you're already fucking off. And then we're going international. So you're way off. And so you're mapping to a number that's a fake number. And now you're not just mapping it to the university, you're trying to map it into every subject. And this is just like, it's just, it's almost

• 36:05Ben Horowitz?

  the American epidemic in innumeracy is kind of affecting the whole logic of how these programs work. And the problem is it's to the detriment of the people you're trying to recruit. I give you a very good anecdote on this. So you and I just had breakfast with a kind of prominent trustee at one of the most important universities in the world. And he made like a very offhand comment, which he thought was the most obvious thing in the world. That really kind of stopped me in my tracks, which he said, look, even if we accepted every black applicant, we wouldn't hit 14%.

• 36:39Ben Horowitz?

  And so you're so unattractive as a top university in the world to that population that that you can't even touch that number. So your problem is obviously, you know, like not in, you know, making race a great, your, your problem is you don't even know what you're looking for. You don't know what they're interested in. You don't know how to create an environment, you know, that, that, that's beneficial where they're going to have great careers coming out of it. You haven't done any of the real work. You're just trying to like meet some number that doesn't even make any sense. And that's, to me, that's the issue.

• 37:16Marc Andreessen?

  Well, take it a step further, just to double down, because this is a real issue right now and real issue for many people, including, as you said, the people that everybody's trying to help. So your, your friend, Henry Louis Gates, longtime professor at Harvard, actually was, pointed out 20, 20 years ago, I think, all the way back in like 2004, there was, there's a big article in the New York Times archives, it's really interesting, from that era. And he, the two sources for it were him and then Lonnie Gwinir, who was one of the top black law professors in the country at the time, I think also Harvard, maybe also Harvard professor. And later, she was like, almost on the Supreme Court at one point. So these two very highly respected black scholars, you know, experts, professors, and they, they, they made this case at the time, they said, look, what these institutions are actually doing is they're bringing in African and West Indian immigrants to satisfy the African American quotas.

• 37:58Ben Horowitz?

  Yes, that is exactly what's happening. There are more Nigerians, I believe there's more Nigerians at Harvard than African Americans.

• 38:05Marc Andreessen?

  Right. Yeah, right. And, and of course, like, look, at an individual level, you know, find, you know, great, you know, great, you know, I'm totally in favor of having like highly talented Africans and, you know.

• 38:14Ben Horowitz?

  By the way, Nigerian, nothing to do with Somalis, like genetically. This is the weird thing about this race theory that people are kind of promoting is, they're not even like related to actual races. I mean, or actually genetics, or, and it's just some weird government category.

• 38:34Marc Andreessen?

  Government, government, over, over, over categorization. And then, you know, specifically back to like what everybody thinks they're trying to do, which is if you're trying to help African Americans, right? And, and your answer to it is, we have to bring in lots of like literal Africans and West Indians or some, or other, other population groups to do it. Then you, you certainly, like some, again, to your point, like something has gone wrong in pursuit of the goal of helping African Americans.

• 38:53Ben Horowitz?

  Yeah, I think, look, I think it's clearly not working also in the, yeah, I mean, there were, there, you know, with the kind of ruling on affirmative action, there were so many studies that showed that.

• 39:03Ben Horowitz?

  It didn't actually help African Americans 50 years, you know, forget whether you think it's a good idea or a bad idea or fair or not fair, the results were really bad. And I think part of the reason the results were bad is the way the kind of programs were designed and the, you know, and that like most of the people were African anyway, not African American.

• 39:22Marc Andreessen?

  Right.

• 39:23Ben Horowitz?

  So.

• 39:24Marc Andreessen?

  Exactly. Well, um, so, uh, well, the other benefit to the Africans is they, they pay, uh, they, they're more likely to pay full freight, right? So they're from a university from a financial standpoint.

• 39:33Ben Horowitz?

  Yeah. Well, that's right. The other incentive, if you, if you're taking expenses through the roof, you need some people paying full freight.

• 39:41Marc Andreessen?

  Right. And which turns out to be immigrants. Um, okay, good. So let's, you know, that's obviously a big, a big chunk of the, of the reform, uh, fix, fix the university thing, Ben, let's, let's, let's walk through the rest of the, uh, the fix the university turnaround plan.

• 39:53Ben Horowitz?

  Yeah. So, you know, one big thing is the credentialing system, right? Which, um, you know, in this again, like this is probably the most important thing to the student is that that, once I pay all that money, once I spend all that time, that at the end of it, um, I've got something that's very valuable. Uh, and I think that there was just a, uh, report that like half of companies are dropping their like bachelor degree requirement, which kind of says, well, the credential no longer means much.

• 40:29Ben Horowitz?

  Uh, and so I think that, you know, if you don't like the SAT part, then you probably need to fix the SAT part. So it, you know, like make it better, but it does prove something to employers. Um, and it's very hard to, you know, get rid of a measure like that because.

• 40:57Ben Horowitz?

  You know, what are you replacing it with? You're replacing it with grades, which you talked about last time. There's massive grade inflation. Um, so that doesn't really work. Uh, you know, you're doing recommendations like, what are you doing that that an employer can't do themselves? And the brilliance of the SAT, by the way, is as an employer, it's actually illegal to do a general aptitude test. So if you're looking for just whatever, and as you know, we sometimes call them in sales, an all around athlete.

• 41:26Marc Andreessen?

  Um, then or an all around kind of mental athlete.

• 41:30Ben Horowitz?

  You know, you'd like to have some aptitude measure. And if you don't like the aptitude that's being measured, then you know, like enhance that. But to get rid of that is um, kind of nutso from the student perspective. And then the second thing is grade inflation itself. And in a way, it's easy to fix because you just go mandate a grading curve. And just go back, you know, C is average, F is fail. A is, you know, two standard deviations up, B is one standard, like just have it mean something very straightforward, the grade.

• 42:05Marc Andreessen?

  Are you talking about kind of trying to zero in on the absolute call, uh, the absolute grades with the indicator? Are you talking about literally grading on a curve and having a forced distribution?

• 42:12Ben Horowitz?

  Like literally grading on a curve. Right.

• 42:15Marc Andreessen?

  So grading on a curve used to be more common, I think, both in educational settings and also in employee evaluation settings. And you know, companies like Microsoft used to do it kind of famously, um, and GE. And then it went, it's, it feels like it's gone very much out of style. Um, because the, the criticism, the criticism, right, is it sort of forces you, it, it sort of guarantees that you're going to have people who don't make it. Um, and so the, the criticism is like, you know, what if everybody in the class is actually really good? And then you're singling out people who have to be cut from the bottom because you're forcing the, the, the grade on the curve thing. And so isn't that unfair? And so I, I haven't seen anybody great on a curve in many, many years. And so how, how would you, how would you kind of re-explain that to people in a way that they would think it's a good idea to bring it back?

• 42:55Ben Horowitz?

  Yeah. So like, I think it's different at companies, um, and in universities, by the way. So, so I think it actually works probably in some ways better in universities in the sense that like the, the trouble you run into companies is like. You're.

• 43:11Ben Horowitz?

  You're relative to the next employer. So if you hire the top thousand employees in the industry, and then you rank them on a curve, and then you fire the bottom 10%, those are better than the people on the market. And so like you get into that kind of thing and so forth. So there's, you know, this need to mix in the absolute level. The other thing is that, you know, the companies that were famous for it, Intel and Microsoft would actually fire the people at the bottom of the curve. And, you know, that has implications and so forth. One could argue, you know, Intel and Microsoft did pretty well. You know,

• 43:56Ben Horowitz?

  they started with those programs before they were giant monopolies and they became giant monopolies. So that, that, that actually kind of worked. So, you know, it's kind of a retrospective that that stuff is bad. But in the university, you know, I think if you grade it that way, you don't actually, I, I mean, you know, if you feel like, okay, the failing point should be lower than the whatever two standard deviations below the average, then you can do that. But the meaning of who's a top student at Harvard to have clarity on that is pretty powerful. And then also to have clarity on,

• 44:41Ben Horowitz?

  oh, this is what it takes to get through four years and get a degree, a bachelor's degree. To your point last time about conscientiousness, it really kind of fulfills that promise. And so, you know, look, we've gone into this self-esteem is all that matters thing, but the result of that is massive student debt. We just lied to everybody. So you're doing fine. You're doing great. It's all good. Give us your money. And then, oh, guess what? You owe $300,000 and you can't get a job. And, you know, that's the problem. So I, to me, that's a much bigger problem than the self-esteem problem or the, you know, you know, you're three deep standard deviations below the average and you flank the class.

• 45:24Ben Horowitz?

  You, you know, at that point, you probably don't know the material well enough, you know, to get a passing grade, let alone what you get now, which is an A minus.

• 45:35Marc Andreessen?

  Well, the other, the other, the other response I think would be like, look, every professor, every teacher and every manager and every employer are fully aware that you have a distribution of talents and capabilities and results and performance in every group, right? Like, so no, there, there is no employer that does what you just, you know, said a few minutes ago, which is they hire the thousand best people.

• 45:52Ben Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 45:53Marc Andreessen?

  And, and, and, right? Nobody ever does that. I mean, everybody would love to. Nobody ever does. You always have.

• 45:57Ben Horowitz?

  There's also, it's, you know, it's not just smarts, it's effort. You know, effort is a big thing that goes into, you know, not only a, a grade in school, but goes into like performance on the job. And, um, you know, and, and look, I would say the other thing, you know, just in life that you learn when you employ people and every employer knows this is, you know, not everybody is good at everything. So like the important thing is like, what are you great at? And then like, where, how can we put you in a position for your highest and best use? We use this term all the time. You know, like, where can you make the biggest contribution and let us get you there and not have you do something you're no good at? And I think this whole, you know, anti-credentialed kind

• 46:42Ben Horowitz?

  of way that we've got in universities, we, you know, people come out of the school, we don't know what their highest and best use is at. They, they might get, you know, they may be like the greatest. I tell you, Robert Smith is, uh, who's the, um, is he, I guess he's CEO of Vista, he's the founder of Vista, he's kind of runs it. Um, you know, he's very, very sharp on this. He's a, he's a person I probably rely on most for ideas in this area. And one of the things he says is, look, we get guys, we kind of have to reclassify them because, well, I got somebody as an engineer, but when we kind of, you know, look at their personality and so forth, they'd be way better in sales and we reroute

• 47:24Ben Horowitz?

  them and their career goes much better. And so if you're like a genius, you know, psychologist, social networker, like, you know, these kinds of things, and we force you into STEM, um, that's not good for you, it's not good for anybody. But that's what these ideas do, right? Like, they force people into things that aren't their talent, their skill, their passion, their interest. And then, you know, they don't enjoy it. You know, they, you know, like, I'd be resentful if somebody did that to me. And then I'm not going to make much money, and I'm going to be like a low performer wherever I am. And there's no need for it because I'm a super talented person. Like, why are you doing this to me?

• 48:05Ben Horowitz?

  And I think, you know, and it's these ideas of people who want to make the world fair that they impose this thing on people where, like, life is not, it's not fair in that not everybody is exactly the same amount of good at everything. But there's so much variety that there's a place for everybody. You know, like, I do believe that. There's a place for everyone, anybody can contribute, and we got to find that for them. And that's what the university should be doing, is finding people's contribution, not, you know, channeling them into something they don't want to do or, like, didn't test into or whatever. Because, you know, "Oh, we need another person of your race doing this, so we're going to make you do that."

• 48:48Marc Andreessen?

  Yeah, there's something in, if you need to get at the data on, like, representation of different groups and different professions, there's something in the data, the social scientists who study this refer to as the Scandinavian paradox, which is that, it's very counterintuitive. It consists of what you're saying, but it's very counterintuitive, which is, the societies that are most egalitarian have the greater dispersion, have the greater difference between representation of groups, but for example, by profession.

• 49:15Ben Horowitz?

  Why more women go into STEM in, like, Kazakhstan than in Sweden?

• 49:22Marc Andreessen?

  Exactly. And so, the true, like, for example, for STEM, the truly, the truly representative STEM systems at the educational level and at the professional level for, like, science and math and engineering were the Soviet Union, and then apparently even still today Iran.

• 49:38Ben Horowitz?

  There are much fewer rights. Women have much fewer rights, yeah.

• 49:41Marc Andreessen?

  Yeah, and then, by the way, everything else that women might want to do is much more dangerous, right? Like, so, like, being a literature professor in Stalinist Russia was, like, super dangerous.

• 49:52Ben Horowitz?

  Very good point.

• 49:53Marc Andreessen?

  Right, but being a nuclear physicist was like, you know, super, a super privileged position.

• 49:58Ben Horowitz?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 50:01Marc Andreessen?

  Right, exactly. They need you, right? And so if you're like a highly capable person who happens to be a woman, who would love to be a literature professor, but in that system, you can't do that, you're not going to do that. And so you go do the thing that you'd rather not do because it's the safe thing to do. So, and then in contrast, if you do this rank ordering of societies by gender egalitarianism, you know, Scandinavian countries are kind of top of the heap. And I think it's the case in the Scandinavian countries today that like engineers are like 85% men and nurses are like 85% women. And so it's a much more unequal outcome. And so the explanation for it turns out to be very subtle. It's in the statistics for what's happening, which is if you take out all of the societal bias or all the societal level determinism and you take out all, you know, whatever,

• 50:44Marc Andreessen?

  if you take out every possible restriction on what people can do and you let them fully express themselves, then what you're left with is pure choice.

• 50:52Ben Horowitz?

  Right, right.

• 50:53Marc Andreessen?

  Right. And so, and so at that point, the differences in the outcomes that are based on pure choice maximize.

• 51:00Ben Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 51:01Marc Andreessen?

  They don't minimize.

• 51:02Ben Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 51:03Marc Andreessen?

  They maximize, right? And so the freer people are, the more you're going to have dispersion in exactly the way that makes kind of prevailing morality just like completely freak out. But, but, but to your point, the reason we're going through all this, your point is you can imagine a university, you can imagine a university that has this polar opposite view and would have these spectacular programs in things, if music and, and many different areas of everything.

• 51:24Ben Horowitz?

  Poetry.

• 51:25Marc Andreessen?

  Performing arts, poetry, and then, and then all these different, you know, psychology and all these different, you know, things and so forth and so on, and then have sort of equally good, you know, engineering programs or math programs or whatever. And they have just like, and everybody in every program is there because it's the thing that they really want to do in life and that they're the best at, without the kind of trying to force fit everything to be equal representation across all fields. Is that the, it sounds like that.

• 51:45Ben Horowitz?

  Yeah, I mean, and I think that's clearly the right approach and like in.

• 51:52Ben Horowitz?

  I mean, I have to say, like, in business, like, you look, we're a technology venture capital firm, and we end up needing all those things, right? Like, you know, part of our advantage is that, like, we're a firm that has some poetry to them, that can tell a story, that can do these kinds of things. That's how we built the whole brand. It had nothing to do with math. And, you know, like, that's kind of one aspect. Then we're a network, and so we've got to make friends, like, a lot of friends, and not just friends in Silicon Valley. We've got to make friends in Washington DC. We've got to make friends in Hollywood. We've got to make, you know, friends on Wall Street. And, like, this isn't a great job for an engineer.

• 52:37Ben Horowitz?

  And so, like, or, like, there may be engineers who are good at it, but I'll bet you I can find, like, somebody else who's way better at it, and we have. And so, like, and that's my point about the world. Like, the world is very diverse in terms of things that need doing. And to kind of force people into a path because they're not your customer. Your customer is, you know, some, you know, buddy who's covering diversity at The Washington Post or The New York Times or whatever. And you're like, okay, the last thing I want to be doing is getting tagged with racism for their... And by the way, those organizations are not diverse in that way either. You know, like, so they're like, they're telling you how to run your business.

• 53:22Ben Horowitz?

  They don't know how to run their fucking business. The whole thing is just stupid. But, you know, like, you get into these, like, abstract ideas that, you know, at the very surface level makes sense. You know, like, look, there's talent everywhere, yes. People are different, or like, not even people are different, like, you know, people are... There's racism out there, yes. So therefore, every job, every category, and every company's got to be exactly, you know, the percentage that are represented by the population. Well, how'd you get all the way there? Like, that's the dumbest thing I ever heard.

• 54:01Marc Andreessen?

  Yeah. So, um, uh, if you want to just, uh, that was something I do for fun. Sometimes is if you, if you just Google, um, newsroom diversity crisis.

• 54:09Ben Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 54:09Marc Andreessen?

  Um, there are these just absolutely hysterical reports, just like excoriating, uh, the news, the same news organizations to criticize everybody.

• 54:17Ben Horowitz?

  Of course, of course they're not. Yeah. Of course not. Everybody wants to be a damn, you know, journalist.

• 54:24Marc Andreessen?

  So anyway, so.

• 54:25Ben Horowitz?

  An equal amount of their representation in the population. I'm like, what are you talking about?

• 54:30Marc Andreessen?

  Exactly. So, um, to go, go back to the credentialing, to go back to the, you know, why, why we're talking about this, go back to credentialing. So then we, I think what you're saying, see if, see if this is right. And what you're saying is you, you want to think, you, you, you, you want to think harder, leading one of these institutions, you want to think harder about the credentialing on the way in.

• 54:45Ben Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 54:45Marc Andreessen?

  In terms of how you're actually sourcing talent and how you're thinking about talent and how you're thinking about bringing in, you know, lots of different kinds of people.

• 54:51Ben Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 54:52Marc Andreessen?

  Um, and then, and then correspondingly, you also want to think about the credential out. Uh, so the, the, the value of the credential that you're then generating. You know, and, and they're related, right? Cause to your point on the SAT, the, the incoming credential is actually part of the outgoing credential.

• 55:04Ben Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 55:05Marc Andreessen?

  Um, and so, and you, so you want to think hard ultimately about how that all translates downstream to the potential employer.

• 55:10Ben Horowitz?

  Yeah. And by the way, look, if you want to diversify what you're getting through that credentialing system, then widen it. You know, widen the bar, take more things, have them do a poetry test. You know, like, see what their rhyming skills are like, actually, you know, add music to it. Like these, this isn't. These are real tangible things, right? Like, you know. Add, you, you know, like, I think it would be very helpful for us if they would say, like, how good are you at, like, human relationships?

• 55:46Marc Andreessen?

  Right.

• 55:46Ben Horowitz?

  That would be something.

• 55:47Marc Andreessen?

  I'll give you one.

• 55:47Ben Horowitz?

  I would love to know that coming in. Nobody's tested that. Like, fine, if you only want to test. Writing and math in history, but you're going to get people who are good at writing and math and history and interested in it and whose culture puts them that way. And so like, yes, if you kind of mix up the population, throw the cultures together, do a Freaky Friday on everybody and then have them take the test, maybe it'll work better. But like, you're, you're kind of dealing with what you're dealing with. And so if you're going to go find talent, go find talent. But don't make talent being the color of your skin or your gender. Like, that's dumb.

• 56:25Marc Andreessen?

  Yeah, so there's a psychologist there that I read about one. There's a psychologist that has a creativity test, a creativity assessment battery test. And the test, if I remember correctly, it works roughly as follows, which is it's sort of two dimensional. So it's 15 different kinds of creativity. And it's like poetry and literature and, you know, art, visual art and music and, you know, and you, by the way, it could be computer coding, you know, it could, you know, whatever, you could whatever, just list all the different potential kinds of creativity. And then I think it's, he had, it's seven layers, seven degrees of sort of, sort of, you know, sort of aptitude or potential. And it's like, degree one is, you know, like, let's take, just take poetry as an example. I have written a poem on my own in my notebook that

• 57:09Marc Andreessen?

  nobody else has ever seen. And then all the way up to I've won a national poetry award, right? Right. And the same, you know, same thing, classical music, you know, I don't know, if you know, playing classical music instruments, you know, I, you know, I like to practice Brahms from time to time for fun. And I performed at Carnegie Hall, right? It's sort of the scale from one to seven, right? And he said, if you, if you apply this test to any kind of broad-based represent, you know, sort of group in the population, the, the, the average result, the, the, the mean result is, the average is overwhelmingly, the, the, the result is zero.

• 57:44Ben Horowitz?

  Yeah, right, right, right, right. Yeah. So it's a real thing.

• 57:47Marc Andreessen?

  Most people have never done any of those things, right? Most people, if, most people have no interest in doing any of those things. Or, or by the way, maybe most people haven't been encouraged to do those things because they're not valued highly enough. Right? Or because they don't think that it translates to having a future path in life. But for people who have done those things, or might want to do those things, you could have a completely different kind of criteria.

• 58:07Ben Horowitz?

  Yeah, absolutely. And I guarantee it comes out very different across different populations. And I guarantee it's not the same populations that score high on the SAT, right? Like, and so you get into these, you know, like, okay, and, you know, to me, this is probably my greatest disappointment about the lack of evolution of the universities is, you know, we kind of rely on them to help us, like, the idea of like, we're going to help you get to much more of the population, and get to much more of the talent, and we're going to really help you kind of map our students to your needs.

• 58:49Ben Horowitz?

  You know, rather than doing that, they just like wanted to pass this political litmus test. And, and you know, it's just a blown opportunity. And really unfortunate because look, I mean, you know, I, and I can tell you just like in my friend groups, um, you know, like they're just, the interests are just so different, right? Like people, like people in my white friend group, um, or my Asian friend group, or my are always surprised at how much I know about popular music. Nobody in my black friend group is even surprised at all about that. Cause like that interest in music is just higher in the population.

• 59:32Ben Horowitz?

  So like, can we take it, you know, these, these things are different. Cultures are different. Things that are important in the conversation are different.

• 59:42Marc Andreessen?

  Yeah. So let me give you my, my other credential thing, which is like on the other side of this, which I think you'll, you'll find very entertaining. So, um, so one of the things that came out, you know, one of, one of the, one of the, you know, there was this big, big Supreme Court case on admissions and, and so, and Harvard just happened to be the, the university that was the target of it, although I, I think frankly, they were just representative of the entire, you know, category. Uh, but it just turned out we got just a tremendous amount of data, um, you know, from the inside of at least one of these places in terms of how they do all this. Um, and a lot of that now is public record. Um, and you know, one of the things that became very clear, uh, you know, cause, cause universities are, these universities are constantly asked, you know, why don't you just, why don't you just basically admit on the basis purely of objective criteria? Why even do the rest of this? Why don't you just like, for example, why don't you just admit on the basis of quote academic merit, therefore SAT, SAT score?

• 1:00:26Marc Andreessen?

  And actually one of the very interesting responses, um, there are now too many kids who score 800 on the SAT. What they'll say is if we only recruited the base of SAT, it still doesn't, it still doesn't help, uh, it still doesn't get us all the way there because there are too many kids who score 800 on the SAT or 1600 on the SAT. Um, and in particular, and then this gets to the Asian thing, and this, this is why this came out as a Supreme Court case, which is there's, there's specifically, there are too many Asians who score 800 on the math SAT and, and do very well on the verbal SAT. And so it's no longer, it's no, so, so it's no longer an effective testing method to even get to the cream of the crop for people in, in STEM. Now, here's what's interesting. There's no reason why, for example, the math SAT has to cap out at 800. The, the test is designed

• 1:01:06Marc Andreessen?

  and calibrated deliberately by professionals who do this for a living. They can make the test arbitrarily difficult. They can make the scale arbitrarily high. You could have a math SAT test that just had harder and harder and harder and harder questions and then all of a sudden.

• 1:01:22Ben Horowitz?

  Inflation.

• 1:01:24Marc Andreessen?

  Yeah, exactly. Right. Well, so there's, this is almost the opposite of the great inflation. This is like grade capping, right?

• 1:01:29Ben Horowitz?

  Grade capping, yeah. Well, cap at 800. Yeah, yeah, right, right, right.

• 1:01:32Marc Andreessen?

  Yeah, cap at 800. It's kind of like capping and saying my students can only get a B plus in the class. So you just can't like, there's just, there's just, because I'm not presenting complex enough material where they would be able to, you know, validate getting an A, right? But you could, you could have a version of the SAT that basically has like much, much, much harder questions as the test, you know, goes on. And then basically you could have kids, you could just have a scale that goes from, you know, 800 to 2000 and, and you could basically, you could identify within the crop of people who are at the 800 level, you could identify the 10% that are like, like a much higher level. Right? And so, and, and then, you know, then this gets into the question of like, why is it capped at 800? It's, it's capped at 800 because there's just constant pressure on the SAT to equalize itself by demographic group. And so the, the overwhelming priority at the company that

• 1:02:14Marc Andreessen?

  does the SAT is to, is to actually try to reduce group distinctiveness, right? As opposed to unearth talent. And so the, the, they already get like just tremendous criticism for, for group dispersion of, of results. And if, if they, if they let it, if, if they let it go further up, you know, it would be just, you know, it would be logical to expect. It's based on everything we know that, for example, you'd have incredibly high Asian representation, right? Among the people who have higher than 800 math SAT. But in the, in the view of the world in which we're looking for special and different, right? You would say, wow, that's fantastic. In the world where we need everybody to be the same, you would say, oh, that's horrible. Right? But, but that, that, that opportunity is there. And then of course, there's nothing keeping a university from developing a test like that for itself, right? Like, or, or, or an employer, right?

• 1:02:56Ben Horowitz?

  Diversity is our strength.

• 1:02:58Marc Andreessen?

  Yes, exactly.

• 1:02:59Ben Horowitz?

  This, this is the thing that's so like weird about the politics now is. We want diversity, but we want everybody to be the same. And like, we want to make up our minds. And if we have diversity, then we've got to be able to measure diverse talents and degrees of diverse talent and distinguish in all those kinds of things. If we don't want diversity, then, you know, like, why have education at all? Like, just keep us all dumb as we ever were?

• 1:03:30Ben Horowitz?

  You know, like, so we can all be the same. That's the goal. The goal isn't to, you know, invent new things or build new stuff or create new ideas or write new movies. The idea is that everybody's the same. And that being, and this is, this is where I think, like, the illogic gets really wacky. And I think that, you know, like, universities got caught in their own underwear because they weren't willing to have that conversation, which is crazy because the whole idea of the, or like, a big idea in the university is, you know, free speech marketplace of ideas, these kinds of things. But those ideas got shut down.

• 1:04:10Marc Andreessen?

  Right. So let's keep going. Let's see, we already covered a fair amount on the fix-it thing. We could probably spend a lot more time on it. Let's go to the other, another option, though, which is basically starting new competition.

• 1:04:20Ben Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:21Marc Andreessen?

  And so you could start, you could start new universities. And it is worth saying, of course, some people are trying to do this, right? And so our friend Joe Laundale and a bunch, you know, a bunch of our friends actually do a lot of very wise. Joe Ferguson, well, Lambda School is a for-profit, a for-profit version Austin Allred is doing. And then there's a nonprofit version, University of Austin, which our friends, which our friend Joe Laundale and his colleagues are doing. And then there's, there's another one called Minerva. And, you know, people do try to start new universities. And so let's, let's, let's talk about that for a second. So let me, let me just kind of frame the, frame, frame the thing. So the, the obvious pro for doing this is, you know, sort of the advantage of starting something new, which is sort of a clean sheet of paper. You can learn all the lessons from the people who have come before you. You can do what makes

• 1:05:06Marc Andreessen?

  sense for today. You know, and then look, probably this would be that just given the issues in the world today, this is probably the best time in a hundred years to try to do that, right? Because you have, you know, a lot of people, you have actually quite a few donors at the moment, as well as, you know, quite a few parents and students, you know, including, by the way, students who, according to the current policies, are actually very capable that can't get into top universities right now because of the, you know, sort of very radical changes in admission policies. So you have like, you know, this, this is probably like the biggest golden moment in, in probably in a hundred years to, to, to think about doing this. Some people are trying to do it. There's a bunch of reasons to think that, you know, this would also be very difficult. I'll just list three reasons why this would be very difficult. Number one is existing institutions just have very powerful network effects, which is why they, you know, they, they're so, you know, which is why the,

• 1:05:49Marc Andreessen?

  the, the big ones are like hundreds of years old. Two is it would take a lot of money for a long time because of the network effect. You need to boot up a network effect and that would just be very expensive, right? In other words, like it's hard to get the great students until you have the great faculty. It's hard to get the great faculty to have the great students. And so like, for example, you'd have to like really overpay faculty to get them to come over and you'd probably have to have a, you know, much cheaper student proposition. So you'd have like upside down economics for a while while you're booting it, which means you would need a lot of funding. And then third is you'd be trying to break into a cartel. And so, you know, we talked about the accreditation process last time, but like it's, it's, you know, maybe you could get accredited, you get access to federal student loan funding and federal research funding, and maybe you couldn't, maybe you just get boxed out, which again, would just translate to you need, you would need a lot more money to get started. So Ben, like, think about, yeah, so kind of

• 1:06:33Marc Andreessen?

  with your entrepreneurial hat on and your venture capitalist hat on, like, is, is, is starting new universities in the shape and form and kind of equivalent bundle to the current universities? Is that an idea that we would encourage or that we would, we would warn people away from?

• 1:06:45Ben Horowitz?

  I, I would probably warn people away from that idea, that, that it's the same bundle.

• 1:06:52Ben Horowitz?

  Although, you know, like,

• 1:06:55Ben Horowitz?

  Today is probably the right time to come at that idea. I think from a venture capital standpoint, that is a very long shot. So it's kind of like, you know, it's a difference between like Tucker, DeLorean and Tesla, right?

• 1:07:16Marc Andreessen?

  So By the way, to be clear, the reference is to Tucker Automotive, not to any other Tucker.

• 1:07:23Ben Horowitz?

  Yeah, no, not Tucker.

• 1:07:26Ben Horowitz?

  But, you know, like, I think it's really, and we talk about this a lot, is, you know, like, taking on, you know, an existing incumbent at what they do is tough. Taking them on on something that they really don't do, like electric cars, tends to work better. And I think that with universities, kind of, there is such a huge opening

• 1:07:53Ben Horowitz?

  for, you know, different lengths of degrees. So like, the four-year degree is really something that doesn't make much sense to me. So to adopt that as like, what your degree length is, given that people who aren't scholars need kind of skills, and then new skills, and new skills, and new skills. I mean, could you imagine if we were trying to do our jobs based on just what we learned in college, right? Like, it taught me to program in Pascal, you know, and C, like, neither of which anyways, a few times you see, but not often.

• 1:08:32Ben Horowitz?

  And, you know, like I said, like, these things don't last that long anymore, these kind of things that you're taught. Knowledge is evolving very fast, which is great. So like, the four-year degree, you know, like, that's one thing you might bring into question. And then if you had a shorter degree where you could get just as high paying a job, and it's something Lambda School does, of course, then all of the sudden, you have a value proposition that's starting to look really good. Oh, maybe like 10 grand, you know, you lend me 10 grand for a year, this is what Lambda School does, and then you pay me back. If and only if you get a job. Well, okay, that starts to sound pretty good. So like, I think

• 1:09:14Ben Horowitz?

  there's things that would be much more attractive to students potentially that weren't like a full frontal assault on Harvard. So just from a VC standpoint, I think that now, like, I think there's something very noble about building a new full out four year Ivy League of the Future type thing, because if you believe these schools have lost their way, then, you know, it's time to build a new thing. But, but I'm not sure that, you know, then first university was invented so long ago, like, why don't we invent one for today?

• 1:09:49Marc Andreessen?

  Let's take it out of, let's take it out of the realm of, you know, pure venture, let's take it out of the realm of venture capital, where we, you know, we think about generating a return and so forth. Let's, let's take it out in the realm of, you know, maybe, let's say, sort of philanthropy as an example, or just somebody who really wants to make this happen. So, you know, look, we just happened, you know, there's a donor strike at some institutions right now, and there's a very deep pocket of donors, you know, very deep pocket of donors that are, that are on strike.

• 1:10:09Ben Horowitz?

  You know, take out Jewish ones.

• 1:10:12Marc Andreessen?

  That's, that's what I've read. So, um, so let's suppose, let's just hypothesize, and I don't, I don't know whether, by the way, I don't know whether this is happening. It may be, I don't, I don't know. But like, let's just suppose a group of them get together, and they're just like, look, we're gonna put $2 billion, or $5 billion, or $10 billion, and we're gonna build from scratch. And we're gonna, we're gonna do the direct frontal thing. We're just gonna, like, we're gonna build the parallel thing. And then, and then the logic we're gonna have for doing that is, number one, we have the money. We have the resources. Let's assume we have the money and resources at the level of some number of billions of dollars to do that. You know, let's say up to the, up to the five or $10 billion level, just to swag it. And then, let's say that, you know, look, we actually want to go for a full frontal

• 1:10:53Marc Andreessen?

  kind of assault, because we don't want people to have to rethink their assumptions. Like, we want to just be able to, like, bring the faculty over, we want to bring the students over, we want the parents to be totally comfortable, right? We want the government to understand how to deal with us. Like, we just, we want to fit into the existing industry structure, and we don't want to, we don't want to take, take the risk of innovating, we just want to be like the others. And we're just, we're just gonna be a new, we're just gonna be a new and better version of the thing that already exists. Like, how would we, how, how would we advise them? You know, given, given, given, given those goals and given that level of funding, like, would, would, would we at that point say, you know, wow, that sounds like it might be a good idea, and here's how you might do it? Or would we still say?

• 1:11:30Ben Horowitz?

  Yeah, no, like, I mean, I, I, like,

• 1:11:34Ben Horowitz?

  As you know, our whole mission in life is we're dream builders, not dream killers. So we would have for sure encouraged them. And actually it got me thinking about like, what would I advise Joe Lonsdale to do? Like, like one thing I wish I should probably call him is he should wire University of Austin straight into us and straight into, you know, everybody in venture capital who's building new companies and, and kind of hiring lots of employees and all these kinds of things. And, um, you know, ask us what we're looking for and then, um, you know, let's do a partnership and, and recruit straight out of there and so forth. And then that will really enhance the proposition to new students.

• 1:12:18Ben Horowitz?

  So if I'm a new student and I'm going like, okay, I got a Harvard degree or I could get a University of Boston degree, why am I going to University of Boston? Well, what if like during the recruiting process, like they come see us and we go like, we'd rather have you out of University of Boston than out of Harvard. That would open my eyes. I'd go like, okay, that's something, you know, I, I, I may take that seriously. So I'd probably like really lock in on how can I attract the best students and what does that take? And I think it's, you know, it's partly a function of faculty, but it's partly a function of like, who's paying, who's understands enough about that university that they go, I'm all in.

• 1:13:02Ben Horowitz?

  And by the way, I can be as big a help to you when you come out as anybody. So kind of artificially create what's like the alumni network, but better than an alumni network is you're doing it with people who a hundred percent have jobs, like the top of the job market. I think that that's probably where I would start. And then I kind of designed the system to feed us and then to kind of feed the students in that way into all the most kind of. Interesting job to line up with the curriculum now, you know, like, and if you're doing like, if university at Boston was like, had a, whatever, a big focus on creativity, then I would,

• 1:13:46Ben Horowitz?

  you know, wanna like, wire them into some kind of creative output or whatever, like, so what happens after the University of Austin? Like, I would start with that. Like, what's gonna happen when we graduate? Is, is basically, when you go to school, you're like, what are you looking for? You're looking for, like, my life isn't gonna be, like, you know, for me, it was like, my life's not gonna be working at a fucking restaurant. Cause I had been a busboy, and I was like, I do not wanna do that my whole life. I can't do it. I'll shoot myself in the head. Like, I can't, I can't take it. And, and I think that's a lot what people are looking for when they go to college. It's like, how can I have a life that kind of has more variety, is interesting, where I'm learning,

• 1:14:29Ben Horowitz?

  and, you know, a lifelong learner, all that kinda thing? And so if you can guarantee me that life, or if you can give me a better product to get me that life, that's what I want.

• 1:14:40Marc Andreessen?

  Right, right. So you sent me, on the same topic, building, building from scratch. You sent me a thing as we were prepping for this. I'll just read your own, your own quote back to you. The, the, today's universities are built on industrial revolution technology that are, and, and that are therefore completely outdated for the information age, both in how they run and the product they offer. And so how would, again, how would we advise this hypothetical new institution on, on how to, on what to do on, on that? Like, what, what, yeah, what, what does that mean in practice?

• 1:15:10Ben Horowitz?

  Yeah, so like, I think industrial revolution technology means you can build big buildings, right? You can drive there in your car, or on a train. You don't have to ride a horse. And,

• 1:15:22Marc Andreessen?

  It's got, it's got, the, the indoor lighting at night.

• 1:15:26Ben Horowitz?

  Indoor lighting at night, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:15:28Marc Andreessen?

  It's, it's, it's not too hot, not too cold.

• 1:15:31Ben Horowitz?

  Yeah, this, this is sort of the platform. So what do you get? You get classrooms with instructors. You get, you know, dorms that you can live in, you know, big cafeteria, you know, with a meal plan, all that kinda thing. But, like, in the information age, and a giant library, of course, or multiple libraries, if you're an Ivy League school. You know, in the information age, you have like AI, you can ask it any question. You've got, you know, you have access to the Internet. You've got all these other things.

• 1:16:13Ben Horowitz?

  And then, you know, your school experience, you know, right now in an industrial age world is you have instructors and you've got like administrators filling out forms. And you've got, you know, very little, you know, I don't know about University of Illinois, but certainly at Columbia and at UCLA, it's very little kind of career guidance, you know, kinds of things help you, help you find your highest and best use. The university didn't really do that. So I think that in a information age, AI university, all that form filling out, all that, a lot of the kind of instruction is taken care of.

• 1:16:57Ben Horowitz?

  But what you really need is a university to help you find your purpose and then guide you through your purpose with a team of other students who have a similar purpose. And, you know, to help you study the right things, prove yourself in the right ways, get the credential and so forth, and using all the best tools to do that as opposed to, you know, waking you up at eight in the morning, walk to class in your pajamas because you were drinking too much last night, you know, sit in a class very bored, not really, you know, kind of be integrated into the AI and the Internet to get the rest of the information. So I just think there's like a whole rink

• 1:17:41Ben Horowitz?

  thinking of the way your day would go. And, you know, like.

• 1:17:49Ben Horowitz?

  Forty-five minute or hour and a half lectures are pretty hard. Like, it's pretty hard to pay attention the whole time and retain everything. Whereas like, smaller chunks of work, you know, I think have been proven out, you know, and like, and then a kind of test to go like, okay, did you retain the information that you got? Or like some interactive part every ten minutes is a much better, you know, like, just in terms of these things. And then, you know, like, as you said, like, one-to-one tutor, that kind of thing. But maybe the machine is the one-to-one tutor in some ways. Because you can ask it questions now in English or in, you know, Chinese or whatever language you speak. So I think that I would definitely make it that.

• 1:18:30Ben Horowitz?

  And, you know, give the professors, the mega tutors, the kind of tools to both identify the capabilities of the students and then, you know, help them maximize those abilities. And then, kind of, then map it further into, you know, people like us or, you know, it could be us, it could be the NBA, it could be,

• 1:18:53Ben Horowitz?

  you know, it could be Warner Music, it could be whatever part of society

• 1:18:59Ben Horowitz?

  works. But like, you know, like I said, we take people with all kinds of talent. You know, all kinds of different things is very valuable for, like, extremely valuable for us at the firm. In fact, you know, I'd say, I'd argue, you know, we're 550 people, which probably makes us the biggest venture capital firm in the world. Why? Because we do the most things. Why? Because we have the kind of people who can do lots of different things. And, you know, that's a that's a heck of an advantage when, you know, as an employer, you have people who can do all kinds of different things. Because then you have more capability as an institution.

• 1:19:38Marc Andreessen?

  Right, right. And so, yeah, and so when the topic of technology and education comes up, a lot of people, you know, sort of reflexively assume that you must mean just like the whole thing moves online, everything's over the internet. Like, that's not what you're saying.

• 1:19:49Ben Horowitz?

  No, no, no, no.

• 1:19:50Marc Andreessen?

  You're saying, like, it would continue to be a real-world experience comparable to what people have today.

• 1:19:55Ben Horowitz?

  I think of your world experience, I actually think it's good for most students. Maybe not for you, but for most students. There are different personality types, too. But, like, I think there's something very motivating to be around peers, right? Like, here you are, here's my cohort of people who are going to be in the world with me. And what are they doing? And what can I learn from them? You learn as much kind of from your classmates as you do, kind of, I think, from the university. And that's hard to do. Like, it's much harder to do online. So I think that the college experience, which is, you know, to Joe and University of Austin's credit, is a real thing with real value, you know, particularly for a young person, for most young people.

• 1:20:40Ben Horowitz?

  But I think you have to modernize it, you know, like, we're not in 1910 anymore.

• 1:20:46Marc Andreessen?

  Yeah, yeah. And so with that in mind, let's go more radical from that. So let's, uh, let's talk about unbundling. So my, uh, our old friend Jim Barstel has his famous line, he says, there's two ways, it's two ways to succeed in life, in business. Uh, one is you can bundle, the other is you can unbundle.

• 1:21:01Ben Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:01Marc Andreessen?

  Um, and so let's, let's talk about the unbundling. So, um, I'll just go through them in, in order. So we had our dozen functions of the major university. Um, I stripped out three, which we could talk about at the end, but that leaves nine, which seems to me, at least, there's a case you could make for unbundling. So let's, let's walk through them. And let's think about these as like, you know, actual potential start, actual potentially their startup ideas, like actual for-profit startup ideas, or by the way, maybe nonprofit or philanthropic ideas. Uh, so credentialing agency, like, um, yeah, so we've talked a lot about credentialing so far, but like, you know, all the different aspects of credentialing. And again, this concept of credentialing in, credentialing out, like, both the credential, the way that you're deciding who to credential, and then the actual credential that you're giving them. Like, is that, Ben, in your view, is like, is that something that could be abstracted out and turned into its own thing?

• 1:21:46Ben Horowitz?

  Oh, I think this may be the best startup idea of everything in education in that, uh, look, if somebody...

• 1:22:00Ben Horowitz?

  Had a, an organization that aptituted, personality tested people in, you know, not just, you know, a general test, but like in very specific things as well. Like, you know, if you think about Silicon Valley, everybody gives every engineer some kind of test, you know, in their interview, right? Like, write this piece of code, you know, figure out this algorithm, this kind of thing. I think every job has, you know, some of that. So if you had a place that could reliably differentiate kind of people's capability and things you needed to hire for,

• 1:22:41Ben Horowitz?

  that would be, you know, something that I think would be very attractive to employees. I mean, you know, like one of the, right, the, the SAT was invented because it used to be only like nobles, you know, the elite, the aristocrats, people from rich families got to go to college. And then you're saying, well, like, what if I'm like, you know, some poor kid from New Lisbon, Wisconsin? How do I show I can go to University of Illinois? Well, like, take this test. That's a fucking miracle. And I think-

• 1:23:09Marc Andreessen?

  And that was, to your point, like, that was a specific reform at a specific moment in time.

• 1:23:13Ben Horowitz?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. And then if you think about that, you know, among employers, people are worried about bias and this and that. Well, like, you know, like, you know, to have the ability to show your capability in any dimension, and then have an employer know about that and have it be like valid. You know, we'd be incredibly interested in that. And I think that, you know, people who didn't have college degrees, who might have gone to a state school or something like that, that, you know, was a little cheaper, that they could afford, all of a sudden. Well, and then that, that would actually help fix the university system in a way in that now I can go to San Francisco State and I can go get credentialed here.

• 1:23:57Ben Horowitz?

  And I'm actually more interesting to Andreessen Horowitz than the person from Harvard, who's got this degrading credential.

• 1:24:06Ben Horowitz?

  Like, how about that? And I spent a hell of a lot less money to go to San Francisco State. That would be incredible. So I think that, to me, this is such a great startup idea. I've been thinking about since we started the podcast, like, how do we fund that one? Like, that's awesome. You know, you'd have to do a great job on it. That, you know, it would have to be unfudgeable. You know, you'd really like, nobody's bringing chat GPT into the thing with them. Like, whatever it is, or maybe they are. Like, I don't, I don't know. You know, maybe you just have to know what to ask. But something that was like, you knew if they could do that, then they would have that capability.

• 1:24:46Ben Horowitz?

  And then as an interviewer, you're just really going, understanding motivation, cultural fit, these kinds of things as opposed to can they do the job? Because you know they can do the job.

• 1:24:54Marc Andreessen?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:56Marc Andreessen?

  There's also something, and I'm not, I'm not a lawyer, but there's also something in the law. So as you pointed out earlier, like, it's, it's illegal. There's a famous Supreme Court case, uh, where it made it illegal. Companies used to do generalized aptitude testing, uh, in the old days. And then there was a Supreme Court case.

• 1:25:09Ben Horowitz?

  General test and rule them out of a specific job on a general test.

• 1:25:13Marc Andreessen?

  Right.

• 1:25:15Marc Andreessen?

  That's right. And that, and that basically killed IQ testing at, at, at, at the employment level. Um, and, and that was when the SAT, that was when the university degree took off because it was the, the SAT score was an implicit IQ test and it laundered through. So employers, employers outsourced the IQ test to the university credential. But, but the, as we discussed, the university, seventeen, seventeen hundred universities and colleges in the US have stopped using standardized testing as an admission, uh, criteria. So that the value of that is going to zero as, as an IQ test. Um, and, and in fact, um, you know, they're doing everything they can to get away from that. So, so, so, so, but, but the employer still can't do it. What's, what's interesting about this as a startup idea is that the thing that the Supreme Court has said specifically is illegal is an employer can't do this.

• 1:25:55Ben Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:55Marc Andreessen?

  Um, but here you could have any kind of aptitude testing, IQ or otherwise, you could have a dozen or a hundred different ways of measuring, measuring aptitude in whatever domain you want, including creativity, everything else we talked about. And it would all be, it's all completely voluntary. It's completely illegal. Um, you know, it's because it's not tied to employment, right?

• 1:26:11Ben Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 1:26:12Marc Andreessen?

  And so I, right? So you, you could do like a super version of even what the employers universities did in the past and actually have it be a fully, fully legal thing.

• 1:26:20Ben Horowitz?

  And by the way, you know, we. It would really help get people into the right jobs as well because you know, sometimes people get miscast like this is, you know, life is like that. Sometimes, you know, you get assigned one thing and you really should be something else. And these kinds of, this kind of rigorous assessment might identify that and then, you know, like you can kind of find something that you're better at and, uh, and that you're do better at in your career. And then like, you know, we could use more, which would be great for us. This is like, this is a definitely high on the, it would be great for us, great, Jerry.

• 1:26:56Marc Andreessen?

  Yeah, yeah. Okay, good. Um, good. Uh, all right. Second is actual, actual educational coursework itself. And of course, you know, again, here there have been attempts, there was, you know, kind of the MOOC, you know, kind of online. A while ago, Coursera, Udacity, and then, um, you know, Udemy or Udemy, which is another startup.

• 1:27:14Ben Horowitz?

  And then Khan Academy, which is kind of a different format of it. Yeah.

• 1:27:19Marc Andreessen?

  Yeah, exactly. And then, um, I'll just give you a couple, a couple of thoughts on this one. Um, so number one, actually, this has already happened, specifically this is happening in Korea. Um, and so there are actual, there are actually like teaching superstars in Korea that, um, actually, you know, make, makes big courses. I, I, I've had this idea for a long time, which is, um, you know, if you figure you've got a million kids who are going to take Math 101 freshman year of college, you know, you get them, you, you, you get them each to, you know, do a hundred dollars for that. It's a hundred million dollars of revenue, you know, and then hire Steven Spielberg to make Math 101 as a, you know, as a, as a, as a video mini-series, right?

• 1:27:55Ben Horowitz?

  Most compelling courseware of all times. Yeah.

• 1:27:58Marc Andreessen?

  Yeah, like, um, and it literally gets Steven Spielberg, Christopher Nolan, these, I literally, yeah, the most, the most like mind blowing, incredible, like, of course, yeah, of course, uh, uh, lectures you've, you've ever seen with like full, you know, three effects and graphics and everything perfect. Um, and so you could do that. And then, and then, you know, we talked about the, the tutoring thing, but you could, you could potentially have a thing where you have like the, the super high production value general courses, and then you couple it with like AI tutoring. Or you couple it, by the way, with like in-person tutoring and, and, uh, or, you know, matching grad students to undergrads or whatever. Like, and again, like people have been trying to do, you know, variations in this for quite a while. Um, but, you know, how would we think about that as an entrepreneurial opportunity today, do you think?

• 1:28:36Ben Horowitz?

  Yeah, you know, it's interesting because of the ones we named, the one that has worked the best is probably Khan Academy, which had the least amount of money going to it and is in its own format, right? Like it's a, it's not a university course format thing. It's like these little lessons, um, you know? I couldn't even remember, you know, when AI started taking off, I had a hard time remembering, like how to do linear algebra or how hard it was. And I did the Khan Academy, I was like, wow, I, I forgot how easy it was, you know? It's much easier than actual algebra. It sounds, it sounds harder, but it's easier. Um, and so, so like, it is kind of like a magical thing.

• 1:29:14Ben Horowitz?

  Um, and I think the challenge with the full college experience, unless you get to the Christopher Nolan version, is that it's a very big thing to sign up and commit to without a well-known credential, right? Like, okay, I'm going to go learn, um, Right. you know, whatever calculus, uh, or I'm going to learn, um, you know, advanced, you know, like machine learning or, or something like that. If I'm not, if I'm really coming from outside the job market, um, even if I learn it, will anybody believe me? Um, and how does that work?

• 1:29:57Ben Horowitz?

  So I think completely decoupling that one from credentialing or jobs

• 1:30:07Ben Horowitz?

  may be tough, but like if you could link it into like you take this class, you get a job, then I, I think that could definitely work. Um, but otherwise I just think it's a very small market of people who just really want to learn

• 1:30:22Ben Horowitz?

  that much about a subject. Right. Right. So yeah, when you talk to Stan, we like a little bit about subjects. Right.

• 1:30:30Marc Andreessen?

  Yeah, so when you, when you talk to professors, to put on a cynical hat here for a moment, when you talk to professors and university administrators about this kind of thing, basically what they tell you is like, look, like you, you can't be naive about actual, actual real world students. They say, look, like in practice, it goes to your point of like the advantage of having a physical, physical presence, like an actual physical campus. But what they'll tell you is like, look, a lot of students actually like, don't want to learn, like, or they're not motivated to, or like, it's not something they would naturally do, and they're not driven to do it. And like, they're going through the motions, and to the extent that they're actually like, showing up to class and doing the work, it's because they're in a specifically structured environment where the expectations are set high to do that, and they're gonna get kicked out if they don't. And, you know, their parents are paying for it, and like, it's like, they're basically pressured, pressured, basically pressured into doing it.

• 1:31:11Ben Horowitz?

  Right, that was.

• 1:31:11Marc Andreessen?

  And of course, you know, a lot.

• 1:31:12Ben Horowitz?

  When I went to college, and I went to Columbia, so like, and Columbia's like a pretty high end, so I imagine at like, regular school, that's even more the case.

• 1:31:21Marc Andreessen?

  So I think, I think that, I, I guess my response to that would be, I think there might just be two different kinds of students. There might be the ones that like, are actually super strong, it's super intrinsically motivated, as the psychologists say, where they're just like, you know, and then you, by the way, you talk about yourself as an example of this, which is like, I didn't, I was a busboy, I didn't want to be a busboy, I was a dishwasher, I didn't want to be a dishwasher.

• 1:31:40Ben Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:40Marc Andreessen?

  Um, and like, we're gonna go do this, because like, we, we know we need to do this, because we're doing it for intrinsic, we're doing it for ourselves, like, we're doing it for intrinsic reasons. And so, those students exist, but then there is this other kind of student that arguably more populates, especially the upper ranks, ironically, of American education, which is like, where they actually need to be like, I, and not even maybe pressured, it's maybe overstating it, but you know, maybe it's, let's just say they need to be in a highly structured environment.

• 1:32:02Ben Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 1:32:02Marc Andreessen?

  Um, right.

• 1:32:04Ben Horowitz?

  That's most students, I agree.

• 1:32:06Marc Andreessen?

  Yeah, yeah. And so, well, or, or it's this weird thing, which is, it's almost like, the more privileged, the more privileged the student, the more pressure needs to be put on them, or something like that, like, it's a, it's a, you know, it's a.

• 1:32:14Ben Horowitz?

  Well, like, yeah, it's like, if your life is really fun.

• 1:32:18Marc Andreessen?

  Right, right.

• 1:32:19Ben Horowitz?

  You know, if you've got lots of money, and, you know, like, when you're young, life is incredibly fun, everything is new, you know, every movie is amazing, every, like, every experience is incredible. Um, so like, I'm gonna take those years, and I'm gonna fucking sit in a classroom, listening to somebody drone on about, you know, whatever, the Iliad, like, I don't want to do that. Um, so I, I, I think that's right, whereas, on the other hand, if your life is kind of, you know it's misery, without getting something out of this experience, then that's a little more motivating.

• 1:32:55Marc Andreessen?

  Yeah, so I always wonder with these, these things, I always wonder if people should be more specifically, you know, sort of addressing that category. And I don't know even, you know, even say that's not even that big of a category or something, but like basically self motivate, intrinsically motivated.

• 1:33:06Ben Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 1:33:06Marc Andreessen?

  And, and just like not try to, not try to appeal to the people who need like more structure and more pressure.

• 1:33:11Ben Horowitz?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that's a very specific market. Like you'd have to kind of

• 1:33:15Marc Andreessen?

  Yeah.

• 1:33:16Ben Horowitz?

  identify those and, and get them through. Yeah. Interesting.

• 1:33:19Marc Andreessen?

  But again, to your point, if you, if you then link that to, to the credential, then they would see the cause and effect. And then, you know, that would be, it would be very clear. And like we, we mentioned Lambda School, like this, this is basically, we're basically describing Lambda School in a lot of ways. So, um, this, uh, this, this makes sense. Okay. Third is the research bureau. So, so this one freaks people out because like anytime you bring up, is there a different way to like do research, fund research? Basically, everybody in the sort of research complex, you know, generally they freak out because they're, they're basically the, the, the steel man case against any change to how research is funded is basically you don't understand, uh, the whole point of like research, the whole point of basic research is that it doesn't have an end goal like in mind and identified and it can't, um, because how do you know you're doing some research experiment in physics

• 1:34:04Marc Andreessen?

  or some new math theorem or whatever. And like higher bi- biology decoding the genome. And how do you ever know? Like, yeah, maybe there's a commercial use case for this thing 30 years from now, but like you, you have no idea. And that, and that's what makes research different than development, right? The reason that this term research and development is because you know, development has a specific goal to like ship a product and make money. Research is like trying to come up with new, new knowledge. And so it's like, okay, any, and then, and then, you know, the argument, you know, the, the modern research university was constructed, the, the research part of it was constructed originally by Vannevar Bush and his peers 70, 80 years ago to provide a kind of environment in which that kind of basic research can happen. And, and there you get into, um, you know, ideas like tenure, like why do professors have tenure? A big reason for that is so that they're free to do whatever research they want. Um, you know, they don't, they don't, they're not risking getting fired

• 1:34:49Marc Andreessen?

  if they quote unquote, don't deliver something, you know, let's say practically useful. Um, and then, um, you know, the other is like, you know, government funding of research. It's like, you know, the government, you know, companies won't fund basic research because it doesn't have an end commercial target. Um, uh, but, uh, you know, the government will, because it presumably has this long-term perspective. And so, so, so you get like tremendous, in my experiences, you get like tremendous pushback out of the gate on this conversation. Having said that, I think there are a bunch of very interesting things that you could maybe explore as, as, as, as ways to do research outside of the university context. And by the way, and some people are doing this, and we can talk about them. But, um, so, so what is, there's a couple of issues with the current research complex we talked about last time. So one is just, there's a massive replication

• 1:35:30Marc Andreessen?

  crisis. And so depending by field, up to 75% of the research in a lot of fields doesn't replicate. So.

• 1:35:36Ben Horowitz?

  A massive incentive complex, or like a massive incentive problem.

• 1:35:41Marc Andreessen?

  Yes. How do you get a grant? You publish a research result that seems to validate additional investigation. How do you get that result? Well, you get it legitimately, or you do data mining and.

• 1:35:52Ben Horowitz?

  How do you get tenure?

• 1:35:53Marc Andreessen?

  How do you get tenure? You publish papers that you may or may not have written for whatever.

• 1:35:59Ben Horowitz?

  Yourself.

• 1:36:00Marc Andreessen?

  So, so there's that. And then there's a friend of mine, and I won't, I won't name him, but he's a very experienced guy who's been in the sort of leadership positions across this entire spectrum. And he always, he always, whenever he and I talk about this, I'm always going on about the replication crisis, because I think it's such a scandal. And he's like, look, it's not even the problem. He said, the problem is 90% of the research is just useless. It is just like, it's just not helpful. Like, and, and, and basically, and again, this is, this is a guy just.

• 1:36:24Ben Horowitz?

  Does it matter, right?

• 1:36:25Marc Andreessen?

  That's what he says. He says, look, whether it's right or not, it's actually secondary to whether it would even matter if it was right. And, and this, by the way, is a guy who has run a major, he's, he's, he ran a major at one point, major government research funder. And so this is a guy who was in a position to be able to hand out the money. And, you know, and so this is not like some sort of anti-establishment guy. This is like somebody who's been on the inside, seeing how all the sausage is made and running it himself. And he said, it's like, he said, look, he said, look, the practical reality, this is his, his argument. The practical reality is in any given field of research, and it's anything from quantum physics to, you know, and he's good psychology, anything else, computer science, whatever. He said, look, there are five institutions that are on the leading edge. And everybody in each of those fields knows who those five institutions

• 1:37:08Marc Andreessen?

  are. And those five institutions generate, you know, essentially all of the useful output that actually moves the field forward. But it's, and so it's just, it's five institutions, it's, you know, whatever number of, you know, therefore, I don't know, depends on the field, 100 professors, or something like that, 200 maybe by field. And then it's, you know, some number of grad students. And then it's the research budget for those people. And he said, look, he's like, and so I was like, well, why doesn't the government just fund that? Like, why fund the other? And he says, that's like 10% of the money. And I was like, well, then why spend the other 90%? And he's like, well, you know, because like, it's not enough. Like, it's this weird thing of like, it's not enough for the government, because there's like too many, there's too many mouths to feed, there's too many constituents, there's too many congressmen that have universities in their districts. You know, there's too many

• 1:37:51Marc Andreessen?

  people who get tenure who expect this. There's too many incumbent colleges that have research programs, even if they're not productive, they don't cancel them. And so he said, the system is kind of wired to overfund every category by like a factor of 10. And so he said, look, he said, the thing, the thing to do in his view is like, the first thing you would do is, he said, you would just narrow it down to the 10%. And so you would just figure out, like, what is the actual 10% of the useful work to be done? What is the actual 10% of the people who can do that work? And so he says, look, the aggregate dollar amount involved here is, is literally a 10th of what everybody thinks it is, to do the actual quality work. And then he said, and then he, he makes a further, made a further argument that he said, look, like, you don't, yeah, you don't always know that there's going to be commercial applications for research, but a lot of times there is. And so if you have some material science breakthrough or something like that, patent is probably going

• 1:38:34Marc Andreessen?

  to be super valuable. And by the way, universities are in the business of, you know, patents and patent licensing, and they get revenue streams from that, even though it's not their, their main thing. And so he's like, look, you, you could either have these new, you could either have new nonprofit research institutes that would have to be funded with philanthropic dollars, but maybe it's not, you know, maybe that's actually tractable, because it's just not that much money for the high quality work. Or he said, look, maybe it should be a venture capital model, it should be for profit, and you just basically make money. It's a long dated, you know, revenue thing where you're making money in the long run on, on, on commercial product development and on patent licensing coming out the other side. And, and you should actually just like, apply, you should actually apply a VC mindset to that. So, anyway, so it really, and then, oh, and then I'll just mention, like, so our friend Patrick Hollison has, you know, his funding philanthropically program,

• 1:39:17Marc Andreessen?

  you know, the to do independent medical research associated with Stanford, called ARC, but set up as a separate thing. We, we know well, the, the folks at the Howard Hughes Medical Institute, that does, you know, specific grant funding to, to individual young researchers in the biomedical field, and has had outstanding results with that. So, you know, there, there are, there are new cuts on this that people have.

• 1:39:38Ben Horowitz?

  Yeah, Parker, I'm on the board of his institute, which is similar.

• 1:39:42Marc Andreessen?

  Yeah, describe, describe what, what he does.

• 1:39:44Ben Horowitz?

  Yeah, so Sean, Sean's Institute.

• 1:39:48Ben Horowitz?

  It's called PICI is or its initials Parker Institute Cancer, something I can't remember. But I'm on the board of it. But, you know, they so they fund researchers to do kind of breakthrough work on cancer. And, you know, they do have, they've got both, they spin the ideas out into there's a venture model. So they spin them out into companies and the institute invests in them. They do generate patents. So like it is, you know, it's originally he, I mean, he made an incredibly generous $250 million. I think donations to start maybe bigger than that, probably bigger than that. But anyway, some enormous amount of money.

• 1:40:28Ben Horowitz?

  But his vision has always been that like it will become self sustaining over time. Cause he's, you know, the tech, the things that it's doing are so incredibly important. And I think that's a, I think that's probably right. Like I do think it's gonna, you know, end up working and they, you know, they've spun out some very, very interesting companies already. Some of which we've invested in, by the way. And then there's the Chan Zuckerberg Institute, which is another one, right? Our friend Mark Zuckerberg and his wife Priscilla Chan are, you know, trying to cure disease, like all disease. You know, which is incredibly great ambition and not something you would necessarily do in a company, but something that'll probably have a lot of commercial results coming out of it as well.

• 1:41:13Ben Horowitz?

  So, you know, like I think we're definitely at a point where philanthropy can do it. The other thing is right, like there was research before the current complex. And, you know, got us some pretty interesting results, like say the theory of relativity. You know, kind of came out of that. I think, where was Alan Turing when he did his proof? That's a good question. And then of course Claude Shannon was a master's student and, you know, which isn't, I mean, a master's thesis, which is considered like of nothing in academia, which is probably more important than.

• 1:41:58Ben Horowitz?

  Almost any PhD thesis in the last hundred years where he mapped Boolean logic. It was the first time anybody did anything with Boolean logic, which is the algebra of zeros and ones, onto a circuit. And that is the beginning of computers, for those who don't follow that kind of thing. And so there's real research that can obviously happen outside of the way the current university system works. That's been very powerful. So, yeah, no, I think, look, I think that it would be great if there were, you know, a couple hundred of these in different categories. And it'd be certainly something that, you know, I would love to, you know, put more money into.

• 1:42:44Ben Horowitz?

  So I think that's a quite a good idea. Whether they make money or not, like, I think they're very kind of philanthropically fundable.

• 1:42:53Marc Andreessen?

  Yeah, that's right. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, so I think, yeah, I think agreeing with you, I think, but yeah, I think that I think there may just be a, I mean, look, there may be certain areas like, you know, particle physics or whatever, where you still in government money, but like, I think a lot of the current complex actually might be fundable, the quality, the quality work happening in it might be fundable separately.

• 1:43:12Marc Andreessen?

  Let's see, policy think tank, you know, that's, you know, there are policy think tanks that are not associated with universities. And so, you know, that's certainly, you know, a viable thing to do separately, people doing that today. Moral instructor is my favorite one to think about breaking out separately, which is, you know, look, there are many social movements that are not associated with university. There are many social organizations, activist groups, you know, churches, right, like, you know, new religions, you know, like, old religions, right, exactly, which are maybe coming back a little bit right now. And so, yeah, like, I don't know, it seems like society has a lot of different ways to organize moral instruction that's not necessarily having it take place in a, in a, in a, in

• 1:43:56Marc Andreessen?

  a, in a, in a research university context.

• 1:43:59Ben Horowitz?

  Yeah, and I think that the

• 1:44:02Ben Horowitz?

  I think the university one is very, very tricky because it is counter to a lot of its other goals potentially, particularly, you know, marketplace of ideas, freedom of speech, freedom of thought. And, you know, I just think it's not the right people to be doing it. You know, look, pastors and priests and so forth have come under fire, but in a lot of ways, they're much more the right people to be giving moral instruction because they actually spend time with their congregation. They deal with the, you know, their actual trials and tribulations of kind of going off the moral path and how to get people

• 1:44:44Ben Horowitz?

  back on it. And they're like hands on, it's a tangible thing. Whereas, you know, in a university, a professor can spout off whatever the F he wants or she wants and then has no tie to that down the road. They don't live in their community, they don't have parents who go to the church and donate and so forth. So I think in some ways, university is the worst place to do moral instruction now that it's no longer like a religious institution. And if there's one thing I would take out of a university, it'd probably

• 1:45:19Ben Horowitz?

  be that. And look, I think, like, I'm a big believer in kind of an intellectual kind of discussion and instruction about ethics and morality. Like, I actually believe in that a lot. And I mean, look, I do it at work, right? Like, one of the things we talk to employees about is like, you know, we're in this situation, what are we going to do? Are we going to do like what's transactional? Are we going to do what's long term? Are we going to do what's right? Or do what makes us money in the short term? And like, that's like real moral instruction. And with real consequences, that's going to have

• 1:46:02Ben Horowitz?

  real impact. And that like, I've got to live with the consequence, they've got to live with the consequence. And in a way, it's a better context to do it than a university where you don't have any accountability, any moral accountability. So I think you're better off doing it almost anywhere than in a university.

• 1:46:21Marc Andreessen?

  Or you could, and/or, you could also, you could reconstitute the original religious university, the original idea of a religious university.

• 1:46:30Marc Andreessen?

  You could go back, you could go back to the future, you go back to the original idea, right? The original Harvard Business Plan.

• 1:46:35Ben Horowitz?

  Original idea, shut Galileo's ass down, you know, do that kind of thing.

• 1:46:40Marc Andreessen?

  Well, no, no, no, no, like, like, not even, it's even further, it's even further back. I'm not suggesting going that far back. But no, to like the original Harvard, the original Harvard Business Plan, which was like to instruct moral leaders, right? Instruct pastors and moral leaders and you just have a, you can imagine an institution that just does that and just doesn't do all the other things that have been added on for the last 400 years.

• 1:46:59Ben Horowitz?

  Look, I think that would be very good in the sense that, um, like, the, the,

• 1:47:04Ben Horowitz?

  in my lifetime, our society has degenerated no place more than, you know, what's right than right and wrong. Like, there is no agreement on right and wrong anymore. You know, is stealing right? Well, it's right if you're hungry. Okay. You know, is, you know, there, there's certainly no right and wrong about, um, marriage or these kinds of things. And I think that's caused a, a real degeneration of society, quality of life.

• 1:47:40Ben Horowitz?

  You know, outcomes of, uh, of the world. And so like fixing that would be great, but I think the way we do it now is bananas. It's, it's, it doesn't fit into the current bundle, I would just say. So having a independent moral university would be fantastic.

• 1:47:57Marc Andreessen?

  There, there, I mean, there are certainly overtly religious ones. The, you know, the, the ones that we've lost, yeah, the ones that we've lost, I think, are maybe the ones that are kind of moral and ethical without being overtly religious, which is a, a real challenge, a real challenge in general. But anyway, so I'll keep going. So, uh, sports league, I think you'd probably argue that the sports function could just be its own thing.

• 1:48:16Ben Horowitz?

  Yeah, I, I think that like this, the sports league is immoral. Just like fundamentally, I think in retrospect.

• 1:48:23Marc Andreessen?

  The university, you mean the university, the university-based sports. We talked about that last time.

• 1:48:28Ben Horowitz?

  Big time college sports, I think, has gotten to a point where it's clearly immoral in that it's very clearly professional sports where they don't pay the employees. And that generates a colossal amount of money.

• 1:48:44Ben Horowitz?

  And so I think you've got to fix that. And I don't know that you can pay. Kind of like it, probably the right way to fix it is to spin it out and have it continue to be affiliated with the university, but not run by the university, but run, you know, kind of by owners of the various teams or something, you know, more akin to the NFL or the NBA, because that's what it is. And, you know, then the athletes need to get paid. It's just crazy. It's really wild that they don't. South Park did the very hilarious episode on this called the National Crack Baby Association. And they went, but the

• 1:49:28Ben Horowitz?

  funniest part was Cartman went to go see the, you know, one of the kind of presidents of the universities. And he goes, and he's dressed like an old Southern slave master. And he goes, how do you get away with paying with not paying your slaves? And he goes, slaves, you mean our student athletes? And he goes, oh, yes, student athletes. And you're watching and you're going, yep, that's exactly what's going on. Now, like I said, it's not all like, not all schools athletic teams make that kind of money and not all athletic teams, but the ones that do, I think need to be reformed. Like in retrospect, this is one of those things where like people 20 years from now are going to go like, I can't believe you guys did that, you know, that's, that's going to be bad.

• 1:50:13Marc Andreessen?

  Yeah, that's right. And then the two, the two other ones, this is, these are serious topics, but also a little bit, little bit fun. So adult daycare and dating site, right? And so, you know, like the adult day cares, let me look, a lot of people just like graduate high school and go get a job, right? And so, you know, maybe that's, maybe that's overblown. Or maybe you could imagine like new like design communities, contexts, maybe even entire buildings where you have a, you know, sort of social, cultural, you know, kind of matrix that people can plug into.

• 1:50:44Ben Horowitz?

  Yeah, yeah. Like, I mean, to some degree, like the armed services have a, you know, or that function in a way, you know, where you, okay, you get to be 18. What are you going to do with your life? Go to the army, go to college, you know, like it's, it's kind of this community that you step into. That's not your family, but you know, you can't stay here, kind of thing.

• 1:51:07Ben Horowitz?

  I

• 1:51:09Marc Andreessen?

  Or, you know, the corporate campus, you know, for a lot of, for a lot of, you know, even, even post-college, a lot of corporate campuses are kind of designed to perpetuate adult daycare.

• 1:51:16Ben Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 1:51:17Marc Andreessen?

  Right?

• 1:51:18Ben Horowitz?

  I'm just trying to think of the proposition to the parents who are paying for it, you know, at that point.

• 1:51:22Marc Andreessen?

  Yeah.

• 1:51:22Ben Horowitz?

  Like, uh, that, that seems hard.

• 1:51:25Marc Andreessen?

  Well, we have a company.

• 1:51:26Ben Horowitz?

  There was something else that came out of it, you know, like that you

• 1:51:28Marc Andreessen?

  Well, we

• 1:51:29Ben Horowitz?

  To adult daycare and then you got a job.

• 1:51:31Marc Andreessen?

  Yeah. Well, we have a company. So we have a, we have a company where I, you know, he would certainly not pitch it as adult daycare, but we have a company that's intended to provide a much more, you know, pleasant and, and interesting and enjoyable experience, uh, for, uh, you know, especially people new in their lives and careers as adults, uh, from a housing and community standpoint.

• 1:51:48Ben Horowitz?

  Yes. Yes. Um. Yeah, that, yeah. So that is, that's a very good idea. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We can't pre-announce, but yeah, there's a, there is a new idea in the portfolio that creates a place that is like a college dorm, you know, from a living perspective and has a community and so forth and so on. You pay rent there, um. But, you know, rent some way that you would, you know, in any apartment, but it kind of is a nice, uh, bridge from, you know, kind of coming out of high school or college or, or, or whatnot and into the world in a way where you're not just living by yourself somewhere lonely.

• 1:52:26Marc Andreessen?

  Yeah.

• 1:52:27Ben Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 1:52:27Marc Andreessen?

  And then a dating site, you know, I'm just absolutely furious that the dating apps took off after I was dating, after I was finished dating.

• 1:52:36Marc Andreessen?

  I would so much

• 1:52:37Ben Horowitz?

  Yeah, like this is a hard one for me to come on. I haven't been on a date in over thirty-five years.

• 1:52:42Marc Andreessen?

  Exactly. So they, I would just observe, there are new ways for people to, uh, date, uh, today that are much easier than we, when we, when we were in college. And so the, the dating site part of it might already be solved.

• 1:52:51Ben Horowitz?

  Uh, yeah, there, there, there are certainly tools, although, um, you know, that, that physical proximity, uh,

• 1:53:00Ben Horowitz?

  That's something you can simulate online. And there's a lot of, my understanding is there's a lot of fake photos and whatnot. Or people look better in their photos, perhaps.

• 1:53:11Marc Andreessen?

  Well, there's also credentialing. So then there's also got to factor credentialing, which is one of the reasons why, one of the reasons why college campuses are, I mean, one of the reasons a college campus is a hot house for dating is just, it's a lot of young people who are together physically. But another reason is because they're all, they all have a shared sense of identity, right? They all have a shared credential, which is they're all, you know, they're all at X, you know, X, X college, right? And so they've all been validated, you know, at least to some extent. And then, by the way, that's also true later on in life, you know, a lot of people, you know, look for, a lot of people who are college graduates want, you know, only want to date other college graduates, or only want to date people who went to, you know, certain kinds of schools or whatever. So, so the credentialing, the credentialing thing actually like reflects itself into this other sort of area of actual real life, which is dating, you know, dating and then ultimately marriage and offspring. And so, you know, we should

• 1:53:56Marc Andreessen?

  probably both not underestimate the actual utility of an existing college environment for that, but also think about like, well, yeah, but again, like, for example, the credential, you know, could your credentialing agency, could your independent credentialing agency also credential you as a potential?

• 1:54:08Ben Horowitz?

  As a, as a viable marriage prospect or dating prospect.

• 1:54:12Marc Andreessen?

  Exactly. So I, I, I love that part of that, part of the thing. Okay. And then we'll close, we're at two hours. And so we'll, we'll close here quickly. But I, I think there's basically fifth, the fifth thing that could happen is just basically just, it's the existing system could just devolve. Just, it just, you just unwind. And the, the way that it unwind is so the credentialing agency, credentialing function shifts to the employers, the education courses shift to, you know, à la carte internet options, research bureau shifts to the function shifts to the kinds of things, you know, we're, we're just talking about. Policy think tank unwinds, shifts to the independent think tanks, you know, moral instructor part loses credibility and just withers over time. Social reformer withers, arguably happening already. Immigration agency, maybe

• 1:54:54Marc Andreessen?

  that continues. Maybe that's the ultimate business model is just get, get, have high paying immigrants. Sports leagues, you know, break out, go independent, become professional sports, you know, there's, as you're saying, adult daycare dating site, people just find other ways to live and date. Uh, so it just may, it may be that, you know, it, it just simply may be that just things just like unwind. Um, and you know, in, in this scenario, sitting here 50 years from now, these institutions still exist in some form, but they, they look increasingly just like, you know, kind of archaic and, and you know, kind of, you know, kind of just like, I don't know, just like not. You know, they're just, I don't know. It's like, it's like, you know, there's lots of institutions in life where it's just like, wow, you know, you drive down the street and there's a, you know, I won't pick on anybody, but there's a, you know, whatever. And you're just like, wow, that thing still exists.

• 1:55:36Marc Andreessen?

  You know, that's interesting. And they're, and they're just like much less important, uh, cause they kind of, they sort of isolate themselves, um, uh, sort of socially and, and economically. Uh, sort of wall themselves off from, from, from the general progress of society. And so is that, yeah. How, what, how would you think about that?

• 1:55:51Ben Horowitz?

  Yeah. Like, I mean, I think that it's pretty fragile now, you know, in terms of the value proposition and that it's so expensive. And got, you know, the, the, the cost relative to the value is so precarious. And just like, as an example, like if the US government said, we're not going to guarantee college loans anymore. That would be, you know, cataclysmic. Um, and then if employers were like, we're not gonna, you know, there's no SAT score. There's no grades that mean anything. There's no rigor. We're just gonna not value college degrees anymore. That would collapse. So there, there, there's things that are actually

• 1:56:37Ben Horowitz?

  reasonably close to happening that could collapse the system, or at least, you know, really alter it, you know, irrevocably. So I think that, you know, the universities very much have to think hard about like shoring themselves up on the value proposition in particular. I mean, I just think it's getting very weak for students. Um, and that's a dangerous place to be in if you're in university.

• 1:57:02Marc Andreessen?

  Yeah. And then the other thing I nominate is like, I, I, you know, this sounds a little bit crazy right now, but like I, I, you know, I don't think we're necessarily that far away from a full-fledged political revolt. Um, which is the, you know, the, the constituency of these places is just, it's not a majority of society. It's a, it's a small minority. Um, in terms of the, the people who actually benefit from, from, from the system, the system today in the popular, in the voter base. And then, um, and then, uh, you know, these, a lot of these places become so politicized and they're so, they, you know, they inject themselves so directly into national politics. Um, right. And so they, they sort of declared, declared themselves and you see, you see this in every metric and every number of distribution of professor's ideology and then all the social activism that happens and so forth.

• 1:57:42Marc Andreessen?

  It's just like, you know, overwhelming indications and then increasingly public, right? And like, and I, you know, just to, since we're at the two hour mark, I'll just, I'll just, you know, kind of be blunt. It's like, I mean, look like right wing media for better or for worse, is just consumed with story after story after story of just like crazy bananas, you know, uh, you know, crazy hostile things that universities are doing. And so, you know, like you, you could imagine, it hasn't happened, but you could imagine a point where just basically like, you know, the, the, you know, half or more of the country just at some point puts its foot down. And, and its elective representatives put their foot down and they're just like, we're just not doing this anymore. We're not paying for it anymore.

• 1:58:17Ben Horowitz?

  Yeah, right. If the country took a sharper, maybe even a not so sharp right turn, then you could imagine an administration and a congress going. Why are we going for this?

• 1:58:30Marc Andreessen?

  Yeah.

• 1:58:31Ben Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 1:58:31Marc Andreessen?

  And it's just, it's a small number of programs, the, the really cautionary note here would be, um, it's a small number of programs that pay for the whole thing, right? So it's, it's federal student loans, it's federal research funding, it's a, and it's a couple of things in tax law and a few other things. And so it's, it's not like, it's not like it would take, it would not take two years to figure out how to kill these things.

• 1:58:49Ben Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 1:58:50Marc Andreessen?

  From a legislative, from a legislative standpoint, it would take about two minutes. And so it feels like that, and look, maybe that never materializes because maybe these things just are so important and they have such existing credibility and, you know, they have so much political stroke and, you know, their graduates have so much power and so forth. And so maybe that never happens, or maybe it's one of those things where there's a tipping point and at some point people are just like, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna tolerate this anymore.

• 1:59:11Ben Horowitz?

  Yep.

• 1:59:13Marc Andreessen?

  So I would register, register that for anybody still listening as a, hmm. Uh, good. All right. Good. Uh, we, I think covered it. Um, we, as, as predicted in the beginning, we did not get to the Q and A. So Ben, if you're, if you're up for it, uh, we will continue collecting questions. Um, and if there's popular demand, uh, we will do one more, we'll do part three, uh, maybe next week and we'll do, uh, Q and A. And then we will, um, that'll be, it'll be, uh, it'll be six hours of content from us on this topic and that'll probably be enough for a while, but we have enjoyed talking about it and hopefully you've enjoyed listening to it.

• 1:59:44Ben Horowitz?

  Yes. Thank you. Thank you, everyone.